#2293 - Chris Williamson

Chris Williamson is the host of the "Modern Wisdom" podcast https://chriswillx.com/modernwisdom This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com/JRE for 90% off your first week. Don’t miss out on all the action - Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using dkng.co/rogan or with my promo code ROGAN. GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, (800) 327-5050 or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD). 21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in ONT/OR/NH. Eligibility restrictions apply. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS). 1 per new customer. $5+ first-time bet req. Max. $200 issued as non-withdrawable Bonus Bets that expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: dkng.co/dk-offer-terms. Ends 3/30/25 at 11:59 PM ET. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:13Joe Rogan?

  I took the glasses off. I was hoping you were gonna keep them on.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  You want me to keep them on?

• 0:16Joe Rogan?

  You can pull them off.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Let me try mine on.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  Some dudes can't pull off douchey glasses.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  You think these are douchey?

• 0:20Joe Rogan?

  A little bit if I didn't know you, but I know you. I'm not douchey at all, so you can wear cool glasses.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Well, these are requests by you, so I can wear what I want.

• 0:28Joe Rogan?

  You've been wearing them a lot. I like them.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I do. They're kind of... It's like we're having an Instagram filter for the entire world.

• 0:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  So everything feels...

• 0:35Joe Rogan?

  Just a little rosy. I had a pair of rose-colored glasses before and I got it. I was like, "Oh, I get it." It is better this way.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  It is nicer. Yeah, yeah, it's like a full... Dude, I need to show you this, so...

• 0:44Joe Rogan?

  Okay, what is this?

• 0:45Speaker 01

  I have a little open of that. So you'll remember that I sent you a photo on iMessage a couple of months ago of a friend of mine who was in Antarctica.

• 0:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  And he flew a comedy mothership lighter out to Antarctica. I've been reliably told that that lighter was used to smoke weed in Antarctica.

• 1:06Joe Rogan?

  In Antarctica?

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's touched... It was dropped a number of times, so it's touched ancient permafrost.

• 1:10Joe Rogan?

  Fuck, yeah. What kind of laws do they have in Antarctica?

• 1:14Speaker 01

  I don't know. Apparently, very liberal.

• 1:15Joe Rogan?

  Do they have any laws?

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Fuck knows. I don't know.

• 1:17Joe Rogan?

  There's nobody there. Have they established laws?

• 1:19Speaker 01

  They were 400 miles in.

• 1:21Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  So this was part of the final experiment, which was this attempt to try and disprove Flat Earth.

• 1:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  He went as a part of that.

• 1:32Joe Rogan?

  Did he bring Flat Earthers? Is that the deal?

• 1:34Speaker 01

  So, four Flat Earthers, four Globes, Globe Earthers, get flown to Antarctica. It's $35,000 per person.

• 1:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  This guy called Will Duffy put the project together, flew everybody down there.

• 1:47Joe Rogan?

  Did he pay for each person?

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 1:50Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  I think maybe a couple of people chose to go self-funded, but they were trying to get... They were open offer to all of the biggest Flat Earth influencers, commentators on the planet. I don't know what to call them.

• 2:02Joe Rogan?

  How many went?

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Four of each. So, four roundies, four flatties.

• 2:08Joe Rogan?

  Don't you want to see their search histories?

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Maybe the FBI do, I don't know.

• 2:13Joe Rogan?

  The flat people, I want to see.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  So, they do this, in the middle of our winter, their summer, they observe the sun above the horizon for 24 hours. So, there's no explanation, apparently, with most of the models of flat earth, about how the sun could stay above the horizon for 24 hours. So they flew down, they had drones flying in the air, they had 24-hour 360 cameras, they had live stream of iPhones, all of this stuff, and then they had the people that were on the ground. And the guys that were there observed the sun.

• 2:45Joe Rogan?

  Did the flat-earthers switch stances?

• 2:47Speaker 01

  So three...

• 2:48Joe Rogan?

  Three did, one didn't?

• 2:50Speaker 02

  This is just the drone footage.

• 2:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, this is drone footage?

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the final experiment...

• 2:55Joe Rogan?

  So those are apparently mountain tops.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  But they're submerged?

• 3:00Joe Rogan?

  It's just all ice.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  That is so fucking hardcore.

• 3:05Joe Rogan?

  Because you know, there's a bunch of things up there that look like pyramids. And what it really is, is just an unusual peak of an enormous mountain. Have you seen the Antarctic pyramids? Yeah, you gotta go all in on that.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Okay. Fucking, we have hard-launched this episode.

• 3:22Joe Rogan?

  People that believe wild shit about Antarctica. So you know about the direct energy weapon theory, right?

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Yes, I did see that on Sean Ryan's show.

• 3:30Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I did as well. I was like, okay.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  That guy's fucking really interesting.

• 3:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's like, he sounds really interesting, but if I want to sit him next to Eric Weinstein, you know what I'm saying? Like, is anything this guy's saying make any sense? Because I've done that before with Eric, with one guy who was a fraudster. I sent him a video and I said, "Tell me if this is gobbledygook, or if this is like real physics."

• 3:54Speaker 01

  You used Eric to stress-test some guy's ideas.

• 3:56Joe Rogan?

  Of course, he loves it. He loves any sort of intellectual stimulation, and especially if it's like mathematics or physics or something where it's his wheelhouse. And you know, he's great, because you can, someone can sound really good to me. You know, they could start quoting thermal dynamics.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Finessing you through whatever their problem is.

• 4:16Joe Rogan?

  Like chiropractors do. You know chiropractors use all these crazy weird terms for musculature and different insertion points. It's to let you know that they have a comprehensive understanding of the body that's far beyond yours, Chris. And this is the same thing like a lot of fraudsters do. They'll use enormous language and very verbose, you know, phrases. And it's like, they're just trying to get you to think that they're smarter than they are.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think people use sort of complex language and fluency as a proxy for truthfulness and insight.

• 4:52Joe Rogan?

  Yes. And especially when, if you're dealing with a truly brilliant person, they can't, that's what the pyramid is.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Holy fuck.

• 4:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Oh, this is just on Google Maps.

• 5:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Jamie, you've just gone to Google Maps.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't want to go to any, I went to the source.

• 5:03Joe Rogan?

  Any kooky websites? But it does look like a pyramid.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  Well, it also looks like all three.

• 5:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 5:10Joe Rogan?

  But the reality is, that's probably under a couple miles of ice.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this final experiment thing sent the world into a spiral. There's this dude, Jaron Campanella, who was one of the biggest influences, and he's said, "I saw the sun above the horizon. I think the earth's round." And he's immediately been, the Flat Earth Society's just gone into a headspin. They're saying they didn't really go to Antarctica. They went to the sphere in Vegas, was one of the accusations. They did it at the sphere in Vegas, and they were tracking it around.

• 5:42Joe Rogan?

  The sphere's not that big, kids.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 5:45Joe Rogan?

  It's not that big. I've been there. There's seats everywhere. You would know you're there.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. They had a bad time. But yeah, it's, that's been pretty wild. Talking of pyramids. Dude, this new pyramid shit that's just come out?

• 5:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, this is insane. Yeah, I was gonna send this to you as well, Jamie. I'll send you one of the most comprehensive breakdowns of it on X because it's quite stunning. So apparently through the use of Lidar, they have discovered that there are enormous structures underneath the Great Pyramid that go kilometers deep into the earth with coils. So enormous pillars and then these coils. They don't understand what it is because they're all looking, they're just looking at Lidar images. But whatever this is, is a uniform structure. There's several pillars and all of this is like very, very, very weird.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's 600 meters descending down those cylinders and then there's more stuff below it. And then there's additional structures inside of it. Yeah, that was crazy.

• 6:50Joe Rogan?

  It's really crazy. There's a guy Jay Anderson and he did a breakdown of it. Maybe this would be good. We could play this.

• 7:00Joe Rogan?

  It makes a little more sense when someone's explaining it to you.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, we need somebody that's an expert here, not me and you.

• 7:06Joe Rogan?

  Zawie Hawass, by the way, has said it's nonsense.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Already?

• 7:09Joe Rogan?

  Yes. According to Graham Hancock. This is the wonderful thing about having Graham Hancock.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  I texted Graham yesterday. I was like, yeah, what's going on with this?

• 7:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so click on that and go full screen, please. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. There are times in life when it's better to make that big purchase, like buying a car for a job opportunities or a home to build equity. If you're smart with your money, it could pay off big time in the long run. Those aren't the only things you should be investing in, though. It's just as important that you take care of you and your health. That includes your mental health and you could be smart with your money here, too. Use BetterHelp. Traditional in-person therapy can cost between $100 to $250 a month. But BetterHelp online therapy can help you save an average of up to 50% per session.

• 7:57Joe Rogan?

  Plus, this March, they're giving you an even bigger discount on starting therapy. One of the biggest I've offered on this show with 90% off your first week. Therapy can help with a lot of different things. It can help you work through trauma, develop positive coping skills, mindfulness and more. Everyone can benefit from it. Whatever you want to work on, BetterHelp has you covered. They have a network of over thirty thousand therapists, one of the largest online therapy platforms in the world. And since everything is online, it's easy to work it into your schedule with just a few clicks, you can start a session. Your wellbeing is worth it. For a limited time, visit betterhelp.com/jre to get ninety percent off your first week.

• 8:42Joe Rogan?

  That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash J R E.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  How significant of a discovery this is.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Dun dun dun. I love the music. And geometry, so you know it's real. You've got to appreciate the dramatic intro. Project Unity.

• 9:05Speaker 03

  What has just been announced in relation to the pyramids at the Giza Plateau and the plateau itself is so incredible, so awe inspiring and narrative shattering, that I have been sitting here for the last hour trying to wrap my head around the implications of what we were just told. So this is pretty much breaking news because the new findings were announced on the sixteenth of March at a press conference held by the team who were studying the Great Pyramid of Giza with a non-invasive technology that was first developed by Filippo Biande and Corrado Malanga called Synthetic Aperture Radar Doppler Tomography.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Fuck, that's a mouthful.

• 9:44Speaker 03

  This is used to explore the internal structure of the Great Pyramid of Giza. And this method leverages the analysis of micro-movements typically generated by background seismic activity to achieve a high-resolution, full 3D tomographic imagery of the pyramid's interior and subsurface components. The recent findings from deploying this technology are nothing short of mind-blowing. Because what's been discovered is that there are huge structures. Coming down from the base of the pyramid, deep into the bedrock. In fact, over six hundred meters deep, which then connects to structures that extend up to two kilometers below the surface of the ground.

• 10:29Speaker 03

  Two kilometers, massive internal structures connected to the base of the pyramid and extending deep, deep down. This is what we know so far.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  What, what does your friend think about it?

• 10:42Joe Rogan?

  Which friend?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  The one that says it's bullshit.

• 10:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's not my friend, that's Zahi Hawass.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:47Joe Rogan?

  Zahi Hawass is the head of antiquities in, in Egypt. He's like the head guy that talks to the archaeologists and gives the official narrative. In the, in the past, he's been extremely hostile to Graham Hancock, but Graham Hancock and him have now become friends.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, I do know this guy.

• 11:05Joe Rogan?

  Coordinating. Graham is a lovely guy. The people that like are enemies with him just need to get to know him and hang out with him. He's a genuine, real human being who's trying to find the truth. He's, he doesn't have fake narratives and, and he's so sensitive too. Like he's so upset, like when, when people smeared him, like the Atlantis thing, they were trying to say it's a white supremacist idea to look for Atlantis. It's like, what are you talking about? Like, what are you talking about? Like, we had this guy Flint Dibble on who, in an article, and he was talking about Graham and he's connecting Graham to white supremacy and all this crazy shit because of the Atlantis theory. It's the way they dismiss Atlantis.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Pedestalizes white heritage?

• 11:50Joe Rogan?

  Because some people in the past, some people in the past who have theorized about Atlantis had white supremacist ideas. But also, most people didn't. Like Plato didn't, like the people that talked about this place, it's in sub-Saharan Africa. I mean, it's like the least white supremacist discovery of all time, as are the pyramids. This is Africa. It's the least white supremacist notion of all time that this incredibly advanced ancient civilization had reached some sort of proficiency that's above and beyond what we attribute to them. I think Graham is right, and I think there's a lot of other people that are right too, that are chasing this down.

• 12:32Joe Rogan?

  And Christopher Dunn had long ago theorized and wrote a book that he believes that the Great Pyramid of Giza is a gigantic power plant. He thinks it generates power and he has a very, like, a working theory of why it's built the way it's built. That totally coincides with the ability to produce hydrogen, the ability to utilize the rays of space and try to find some way to generate electricity through this.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, the association of other people that we don't like talked about this thing, therefore anybody else that talks about this thing is immediately attached to them, just seems like a very lazy way to sort of smear people. It's lazy thinking.

• 13:21Joe Rogan?

  It's gross. It's beyond lazy. It's not lazy, it's really cheap. It's like, they're cheap insults. And it's also from academia, which is so disappointing. You know, academia has been so captured by this mind virus of leftism that it's so bizarre to watch the brightest minds and the people that we lean on for rational, reasonable thinking and an objective understanding of the world. We lean on the experts. And when they're calling someone a white supremacist for talking about an advanced society that lived in Africa.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  There's a lot of ways that you can put your foot in it. There's this woman, Corey Clark, who sent a survey to every psychology professor in the US and asked them questions like, what is more important, the truth or ensuring that equity is promoted? And a lot of professors basically said, I self censor, I would prioritize making people feel good over necessarily telling them the truth. There are certain opinions that people should be reported for, there are certain topics that basically shouldn't be discussed, the usual suspects, stuff like behavioral genetics, so heritability, evolutionary psychology, as in, anything that kind of relates to sex differences.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  And, yeah, it really is retarding the progress of every, and you think, well, trickling down from this, what sort of...

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Educated society you're gonna have in future, that's not gonna be particularly good.

• 14:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think it's gonna encourage independent education. I think you're gonna encourage people like University of Austin, which is, they're aiming to do just that and to kind of bypass all this nonsense and just teach people reality. And I also think that it's most likely, I mean, I don't even wanna say most likely. It's most certainly influenced by other countries that wanna degrade our ability to develop meaningful minds that come out of universities, like intelligent, useful people.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Distract them with social justice.

• 15:32Joe Rogan?

  Not just distract them, but destroy society with them. It's Yuri Besmanov's prediction from 1984. It's like, you could pass that off as a ridiculous conspiracy theory if it wasn't totally accurate. It's like, it's amazing how people don't want to believe that maybe there's been subversion and that maybe our universities have been overrun for years with both funding, which we know is true, particularly from China. China funds a lot of American universities. They do, they give a lot of grants, they spend a lot of money. And this was, this was a part of the whole thing with George W., or not George W., excuse me, with Joe Biden's bizarre job that he had, where he was a professor,

• 16:16Joe Rogan?

  that he never showed up for classes and he was teaching and he got a large salary. He did, he got a mob no-show job, teaching.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  As a professor.

• 16:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, as a professor. And I think he got a million dollars a year to just do nothing.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  You know that question that people ask about?

• 16:31Joe Rogan?

  Find out how much he got. I don't wanna get sued by a dead man.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  He doesn't know what's going on.

• 16:37Joe Rogan?

  He doesn't know what's going on. Well, he might auto-sign the legal papers.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  There's that question about, there's two options about life in the universe, that either we're alone or that we're not, and both are equally terrifying.

• 16:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Right? I feel like it's the same. When it comes to Western anti-Westernism.

• 16:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  And you say, either we're doing it to ourselves or we're not.

• 17:00Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  And both are equally terrifying.

• 17:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  You know, you're being puppeted by this nefarious foreign power. Or you're just turning around and kicking the ball into your own goal over and over again.

• 17:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think people will turn around and kick the ball into their own goal. But I also think they're being helped. I think there's a substantial amount of this that just works automatically. It preys upon really weak minds and particularly bullies and mean people who want to find other people that they can hate to justify like whatever virtue they believe they have above those people and they'll use it to hate. And John Cleese made a great video about this. Why extremism is so interesting. It's on my Instagram. I reposted it the other day. Someone posted it, we'll give them credit for it, but it's a great clip from John Cleese from 30 years ago. From 30 years ago.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Profetic.

• 17:57Joe Rogan?

  And in pre-social media, there was no social media at this time. And he essentially nails what's going on with both the right wing extremists and the left wing extremists. It's the same thing. They're the same people. They're finding a thing. Click, click this. This episode is presented by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. Shortly before Chile's 1973 coup, two CIA agents played by John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell find their mission on Easter Island spiraling into a web of conspiracies, unexpected alliances, and chaos. Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now.

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• 21:10Speaker 04

  We've heard a lot about extremism recently, a nastier, harsher atmosphere everywhere, more abuse and bother boy behavior, less friendliness and tolerance and respect for opponents. All right, but. What we never hear about extremism is its advantages. Well, the biggest advantage of extremism is that it makes you feel good. Because it provides you with enemies. Let me explain. The great thing about having enemies is that you can pretend that all the badness in the whole world is in your enemies and all the goodness in the whole world is in you. Attractive, isn't it? So, if you have a lot of anger and resentment in you anyway, and you therefore enjoy abusing people, then you can pretend that you're only doing it because these enemies of yours

• 21:55Speaker 04

  are such very bad persons. And that if it wasn't for them, you'd actually be good-natured and courteous and rational all the time. So, if you want to feel good, become an extremist. Okay. Now you have a choice. If you join the hard left, they'll give you their list of authorized enemies. Almost all kinds of authority, especially the police, the city, Americans, judges, multinational corporations, public schools, furriers, newspaper owners, fox hunters, generals, class traitors, and of course, moderates. Or, if you'd rather be an extremist on the hard right, no problem.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  I bet the moderates are in there again.

• 22:36Speaker 04

  You still get a loveliness of enemies, only they're different ones. Noisy minority groups, unions, Russia, weirdos, demonstrators, welfare spongers, meddlesome clergy, peaceniks, the BBC, strikers, social workers, communists, and of course, moderates. And upstart actors. Now, once you're armed with one of these super lists of enemies, you can be as nasty as you like and yet feel your behaviors morally justified. So, you can strut around abusing people and telling them you could eat them for breakfast and still think of yourself as a champion of the truth, a fighter for the greater good, and not the rather sad paranoid schizoid that you really are. Terrific.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Brilliant. Brilliant. That's so good. Brilliant. Yeah, I remember- Pre-social media. But the dynamic is still the same. Right, it's just amplified now, so much so that it's a part of everyone's life. So many people's morality stands on the shoulders of somebody that's fallen behind. Right, it's, look at how much, look at how bad that person is. Don't, you don't need to look at me. And I think that if people start pointing at out-groups and they bind their group together over the mutual hatred of an out-group, that's usually an indication, I'm like, I should look a little bit closer at you. Like, what might be a good example? Lizzo.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Didn't think I was gonna go there. Lizzo, talking about how she was in support of these bigger girls. Yes. And she was gonna help their careers and give them a platform. Yep. Presumably a structurally reinforced platform.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Meanwhile, behind the scenes, she's body shaming them, she's starving them, she's not letting them have water, apart from when she makes the meat bananas out of the vaginas of Amsterdam strippers. Douglas Murray said that she, she thought that she could outsource eating fruit to somebody else.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  And meanwhile, you think, she's portraying nicely, nicely, out front, what's happening behind the scenes. Right. I remember this, this was pre. Want a cigar? Uh, yeah, please. Uh, this was pre.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Pre-Trump Elon, uh, really pre-Trump Elon. And, um, he was saying, thank you very much. And, uh, he was saying, what I care about is doing good, not the appearance of it. Yes. And he's discussing performative empathy in this way. This sort of sense that what's most important is to protect people's feelings. And I think that this really is a point, it doesn't matter whether you're on left or right, this is a point that you should care about because you want people to have some sense of transparency, legitimacy, they want to be telling the truth, you want to trust that what someone is saying to you is actually what they believe. Yes. And he said, what I care about is doing good, not the appearance of it. There are lots of people who are doing evil while proclaiming that they're doing good. And, you know, that's the same that you're talking about there with John Cleese.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  You're saying. These people's morality will stand on the shoulders of others who have fallen behind. It's the same reason why if somebody's in the middle of a scandal, look at who comes out and twists the knife. A lot to go, huh, I wonder what's in your. It's the classic congressman that's got the anti-gay bill.

• 25:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Who's just.

• 25:57Joe Rogan?

  Gay as fuck.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Glory holes and, you know. Check his hard drive. That's the person who's hard drive.

• 26:04Joe Rogan?

  Check his hard drive, yeah.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  So, um, yeah, it's, it's just such an obvious warning sign to me. Yeah. What's happening inside of someone is probably not that good.

• 26:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, if you're looking to destroy someone particularly, like you're, you're attacking someone online particularly. Almost all of those people are deeply broken. There's, there's always some creepiness that lurks behind the scenes that you're trying to cover up for with your actions. Almost always you're trying to put the light on this person, the, you're going to put the eye of sorrow on this person to keep it off yourself. I've seen that a lot of, you know, self-proclaimed male feminists.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Sneaky fuckers.

• 26:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that I know to be creeps, you know, and I'm like, ew. And I'll see them attacking some other guy. I'm like, oh, God, I don't dive in, but I want to sometimes.

• 26:59Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes I want to just burn the boats and pull the fucking pins on the grenades.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  You know what I don't like about that sort of level of aggressive criticism? I think I'm a, you could describe me as a criticism hyper responder. I'm someone for whom it, it probably impacted me more than it should do, certainly more than it should do for someone who gets as the level of attention that I've managed to get myself to now.

• 27:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  And what I don't like about it is it causes people like me to be way less confident in their own positions. Because you think, oh, well, most people, if, if it was me, I would only give feedback if I was really certain. And if I had this person's best interests at heart, and if I wanted them to do better, and if I actually knew what I was talking about. Then I would tell this person what I think about them and what I think about what they're saying.

• 27:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  And if you apply that rubric to everybody else that gives you criticism, you give undue unfair expertise and legitimacy to people who don't have your best interests at heart. They don't understand what you're trying to do. They don't care about you. They don't get it. And it causes a lot of people, basically, I think that criticism killed more dreams than a lack of competence ever did. Because people are just, I'm worried about pushing these boundaries too much.

• 28:08Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  This person, all of my friends tell me the truth, why isn't this person on the internet? There's this idea from Ethan Cross called criticism capture. So you'll have heard of audience capture, right? Where a creator starts feeding red meat to the audience, it becomes very predictable.

• 28:21Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Criticism capture basically says it's not the compliments, but the criticisms that are more warping. That over time, what you end up doing is changing the way that you speak. You become a flame sword, flaming sword wielding, card carrying member that's as aggressive as possible to push back against it. Or you go the other way and you begin to caveat very aggressively. You start to dampen down all of your opinions so that nobody can take offense to them. You have these unnecessarily long sort of diatribes, sort of weird land acknowledgement. Well, we must remember that women are struggling with the thing and we have to do the memories. But now we've got that out of the way, let's talk about men's problems or whatever it might be.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  And yeah, I think, I just wish that the internet was a little bit more positive some as opposed to negative some. And I understand that people bind together over mutual hatreds of out-groups. But the oldest story in human history is that group of people are different to us.

• 29:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Let's get them.

• 29:18Joe Rogan?

  The oldest story in history. I mean, it's tribal genetics. It's like baked into our DNA, literally. And it can be manipulated. And when people are doing it and they're doing it with a very obvious distortion of your actual position just to label you as the worst possible, least charitable version of you that could ever be.

• 29:44Joe Rogan?

  Remotely considered. You see that all the time where people are just trying to distort a narrative. You're seeing that right now with Elon, right? You're seeing people justify violence and extreme vandalism. And you're seeing people cheer it on, and it's very strange. There was a thing on The Daily Show where the host was talking about the attacks on Tesla. And people, keying people's, and the audience starts clapping and cheering. It's so strange. It's so fucking strange. And it's also just shows you how positions just completely flip flop. Like if the Tesla used to be the car that you drove to let everybody know that you were environmentally conscious and you were a good leftist.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  It's a good question. Do we care about the environment or not? Because those fumes that are being kicked out of that are not good.

• 30:35Joe Rogan?

  A thousand jet airplanes flying overhead for a year.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's wild.

• 30:41Joe Rogan?

  You're lighting batteries on fire. They're so toxic.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Lithium and all sorts of shit getting pissed into the environment.

• 30:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's all gonna come down in rain. It's gonna pollute the water. The fish are gonna be polluted. You're not gonna be able to eat them.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  But we're doing good. This is for a righteous cause.

• 30:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's all funded too. It's funded by NGOs. That's where it gets really creepy.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  The Tesla fires are funded by NGOs.

• 31:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, people are uncovering exactly what's going on. And this is where, um, this is where it gets fascinating. Because all this stuff is operated pretty much with impunity in the past before Doge. Before Elon and his crew of hyperspectrum psychopaths started to...

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Fucking teenage mutant ninja turtles.

• 31:21Joe Rogan?

  Super wizards started diving into all this data. And this is something that Ted Cruz talked about. He said, "We had always known that there was these problems, but until Elon came along with these algorithms, we couldn't expose them. We didn't understand what was going on." And now they've used AI to create this understanding of the net of NGOs that is all funded by USAID and by similar type programs. Where, you know, you kind of have these open-ended checks that get written to the other side, other side, that's the top. Yeah, right there. How often you smoke cigars, fella?

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Couple of times. Well, you fucking turned this around the wrong way. Alright.

• 32:02Joe Rogan?

  No worries.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Keep going.

• 32:04Joe Rogan?

  But this is, this is the, essentially, the way Mike Benz describes it. He's the very best at it. I don't know if you've ever seen his, his breakdowns of USAID?

• 32:14Speaker 01

  I love his episodes on here.

• 32:15Joe Rogan?

  Incredible.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  They're so interesting.

• 32:16Joe Rogan?

  They're so interesting, because you realize, like, this has been going on forever and ever and ever. And this is, this is the arm of the government that is about regime change. A lot of the money gets funneled into these other countries, and it's under the guise of, you know, air quotes, aid, but it's not aid. It's Agency for International Development. And it's, it's all about influence and power all throughout the world, and, and also at home. And one of the things that it does at home is they organize these protests. They organize protests, different NGOs do, all funded by the government, all funded by taxpayer money, in this weird way. And when they do it, they pay people to show up at these places.

• 32:59Joe Rogan?

  I've got pamphlets that people have given me, that they've taken from these, these locations, or gotten from email lists, where-

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Is that purposely no digital record?

• 33:08Joe Rogan?

  I, I think probably, but I don't think they care. I mean, I think as long as they're saying they're gonna pay you to protest, I think that's legal. I think it's legal to pay someone to protest. So they're paying people a thousand dollars, and they're giving them food and snacks. And you can get a lot of people to just show up for a thousand bucks. And then, some of them are gonna get a little vandal-y. Some of them-

• 33:30Speaker 01

  You bring enough people together and they get vandal-y?

• 33:33Joe Rogan?

  How crazy is it that the left are the ones who are painting swastikas on cars? Just understand how crazy positions can flip and flop. The left is upset that we're not continuing an endless war in Ukraine. The left is upset that this guy is uncovering fraud and waste. And so, in order to stop that, you must light cars on fire and put swastikas on them. Because he's a Nazi. Because he said, "My heart goes out to you." Even though there's countless videos of AOC doing that gesture, Tim Walz doing that gesture enthusiastically, many, many people.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  I do think if you're in that position, if you've got this heritage coming in, just be careful with where you put your hands.

• 34:19Joe Rogan?

  Don't.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 34:20Joe Rogan?

  Don't do that.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Like, just fucking think about where you put your hands.

• 34:23Joe Rogan?

  He's, you know, he's on the spectrum, man. He's not normal.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Seen that video comparing him and Trump's son? There's two different types of autism. Have you seen this?

• 34:32Joe Rogan?

  No, I haven't.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. It's so good. I think it's at the, is it the inauguration? And they're both stood next to each other and Elon's sort of fist pumping and loving it. And Trump's son's just like staring off.

• 34:44Joe Rogan?

  Apparently, Trump's son went up to Biden at the inauguration and said, "It's on now."

• 34:51Speaker 01

  What is this? A fucking UFC fight?

• 34:53Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that's literally, apparently lip readers have like read what he said when he went up to. Cause there's a moment where he goes up to Biden and Biden looks confused and he doesn't smile. He's like, eh. But he walks up to him and says, "It's on now."

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Well, they need to do, you know how football coaches have got, they put the play thing over the front of their mouth like this and they're talking to it. That's how it needs to be done now for politics with lip readers everywhere.

• 35:18Joe Rogan?

  That kid knew there was lip readers. I don't think he gave a fuck. I think they tried to put his dad in jail and he wants to kill that guy. That's what I think. He's like, fuck you. Cause imagine your dad's getting that close to put in jail for bullshit for the rest of his life? Like, if he got put in jail for 25 to life, he's dead. He's dead. He dies in jail. He's gonna get no food. He's gonna be no nutrition, no sunlight, depression, intense fucking anxiety. You're in jail. You're dead. He's 80 years old. He's not gonna last to 105 in jail.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  There was a video from Forbes recently that got a million plays in a day, talking about Trump getting like bopped on the nose by a boom mic.

• 35:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, by that lady?

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, by a little boom mic. He just, a little boop on the nose.

• 36:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  I, I have to say, I have such fucking news politics fatigue already. Well, what, two months into the, the sort of presidency? And it is the velocity of bullshit. If you can get a million plays in a day because Trump got bopped on the nose by a fucking boom mic, it just, the, the appetite is, it seems endless for it. It just feels, it's very, it's exhausting. I'm kind of having to check out. And I know that people say, oh, well, it's a luxurious position. You don't need to pay attention to politics. It's a luxurious position for you to be in. People at the bottom, they do need to pay attention to politics. It's an interesting stat, because actually, the most educated, wealthiest people are the ones that spend the most time consuming news and talking about

• 36:44Speaker 01

  politics. It's the people at the bottom rung of the ladder that don't. So, that's not true. I'm just fucking exhausted. I'm so-

• 36:51Joe Rogan?

  You're allowed to be exhausted. It's ridic- Newsweek wrote an article about how one of the names of one of our podcast guests, who's a good friend of mine, Michael Costa, his name was misspelled accidentally.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  On the feed?

• 37:10Joe Rogan?

  On the feed.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  You're on the-

• 37:11Joe Rogan?

  And so, Newsweek-

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Is that you, Jamie?

• 37:13Speaker 02

  It wasn't even misspelled. I don't know, it was miscapitalized. It's a, I think the second letter had a capitalization too, on accident, and I don't know.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  The defense rests its case, here.

• 37:22Joe Rogan?

  It wasn't even misspelled, right. It was M capital I, Michael Costa. Like, M C O S T A, or something.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a headline.

• 37:32Joe Rogan?

  It's a fucking article in Newsweek.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Do you ever think that your career would result in you having typos for a headline, Jamie?

• 37:40Joe Rogan?

  Newsweek.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  I don't even know which ones we've missed. I'm sure there's been other ones. That's just the first one I've seen.

• 37:44Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent. What's happens? It happens. People make mistakes. You're typing things in.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:48Joe Rogan?

  But the fact that it's an article that we're being called out for a typo-

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Must be a fucking-

• 37:55Joe Rogan?

  That's an ar- but it's just anything for clicks, man. Anything.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Slow week for news.

• 37:59Joe Rogan?

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• 39:22Joe Rogan?

  Anything for clicks.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  That was something that I noticed, a trend that I've noticed over the last couple of years.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Legacy media is really struggling to garner attention itself. It seems like fewer and fewer people are listening to it. We saw that over the last election.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  It seems to me like the best way that legacy media can gain traffic is to talk about independent media.

• 39:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  How many times are we seeing headlines about Andrew Huberman? Or about the right wing manosphere pipeline and how it's getting people to do this? Or the other side, like, why is there not a Joe Rogan of the left? Like, you know, whatever the headline is, more and more, the way that legacy media is able to achieve traffic is only in reference to independent media.

• 40:07Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  So that, as opposed to us being downstream from them, they're now downstream from us.

• 40:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and anything masculine is right wing. Anything. You cannot be masculine. Like, you cannot be interested in physical fitness, anything.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  It's a pipeline to being right wing.

• 40:23Joe Rogan?

  Yes. You can't like fast cars.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 40:26Joe Rogan?

  You're not allowed to. You're not even allowed to like Teslas anymore.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Misogynist.

• 40:30Joe Rogan?

  Which are the fastest cars.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 40:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you're a misogynist. You're probably racist, maybe a Nazi. I'm gonna put a swastika on your car, just to let everybody know.

• 40:40Joe Rogan?

  It's, there was some really fucking stupid graph that someone put up of how right wing social media and new media people dominate.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  That was the Media Matters study, yeah. This is interesting.

• 40:53Joe Rogan?

  I was at the top of the list. I was at the top of the list and I was like, I feel like the way Caitlyn Jenner must have felt like when she won Woman of the Year. Like, it's so quick, I got to the top of the list. I'm not even right wing. Just because I support Trump, I supported him over the rest of the fucking nonsense that was going on when you're trying to push through someone without even a primary.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  There it is.

• 41:15Joe Rogan?

  This is it. I'm number one bitch. It's kind of funny, like, they're putting Theo Von in there.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Lex Friedman?

• 41:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's Lex Friedman, that's hilarious to put him in there. Who else they have in there that's ridiculous?

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Piers Morgan?

• 41:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, Piers Morgan is kind of light right leaning, I think.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Light right.

• 41:33Joe Rogan?

  But I think he's pretty reasonable. I think he's far more of a centrist.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Kill Tony 3.5. I still don't understand how that's a political show.

• 41:44Joe Rogan?

  It's not, but Tony, you know, was at the White House or the...

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Flagrant 2.8.

• 41:50Joe Rogan?

  Flagrant is not a right wing show, you fucking idiots.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  They have a bunch of red dots too with no names on them, which is, and then blue dots.

• 41:57Joe Rogan?

  You're allowed to. Shut up, Jamie, stop being...

• 41:59Speaker 01

  I managed to thread, I managed to thread the needle of avoiding this.

• 42:02Joe Rogan?

  You're gonna get on there now. They're gonna put you on now. Jamie, those red ones are real, just shut up.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  No, I'm just, I don't know.

• 42:09Joe Rogan?

  No, they're real. They're all real. There's a couple of blue ones that are real too.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  I just put the name, I don't know why they did that.

• 42:14Joe Rogan?

  Fuck the name.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:16Joe Rogan?

  They're too little to get a name.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Too small, no one cares. No one gets a name.

• 42:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's hilarious. It's very funny.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  What, what do you think of the, if you got a proposed reason for why this, is it just a judgment criteria that they're judging shows that aren't right wing as right wing? Or is it genuinely that for some reason the left are struggling to make progress in independent media?

• 42:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, they're struggling to make progress in independent media for sure, and they're trying to figure out why. They're trying to figure out why these, what they are calling right wing, I think if you looked at all my positions... I think way more of them are left wing than right wing. What are the left wing positions that you still hold? Well, the big one is having some sort of a social safety net. I was on welfare when I was a kid. My family was on food stamps. We were fucking poor as shit. And I remember that helping us a lot. We had food. Where I don't know what we would be doing if we did. I mean, we were in a bad place. And there's social safety nets for people. My family got out of that.

• 43:19Joe Rogan?

  And my stepfather and my mother wound up doing well. They did, they did really great and they, they got out of debt and bought a house and great job and the whole deal. But when I was a little boy, we were fucked. And I think social safety nets are very important for people. It's very, it's very important for society. If you care about people, you care about the whole society. You don't want people starving. When there's ways to develop government programs to make sure people have food. And I think that's, this idea of pull them up by their bootstraps is horseshit. Some people don't have boots. They don't have straps. They don't have nothing. They're, they're fucked. They're fucked from the moment they were born. They were born into a bad family environment.

• 44:03Joe Rogan?

  In a bad neighborhood and crime and gangs and drugs and it's not even playing field. Where are you at with healthcare? I think healthcare 100% should be socially funded. Um, I think that Medicare and Medicaid, having programs where people who are hurt can get an operation and it's not going to bankrupt them for the, the rest of their life is another thing that I think society should be. It should be a part of our agreement to take care of each other as a community. That we chip in money for what people would think of as socialist positions. And I always bring up the fire department because the fire department is one of the best examples that everybody sort of agrees. It's a socialist sort of thing.

• 44:47Joe Rogan?

  You give your tax dollars, the tax dollar supports the fire department. The fire department fairly puts out fires for everybody. They don't not put out your fire if you don't have any money. It's not like they don't, the fires.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Such a good example, but when you compare that to the way that medical access is done. At least in this country.

• 45:04Joe Rogan?

  But I also believe in competition. I've said this before, I'll say it again. I want my doctor to be a bad motherfucker who drives a Mercedes. I want my doctor to like be really good. I want him to be an artist. You know, I want to go to the guy who fixes the Lakers knees, you know? That's the guy you want. You want that guy who has a nice watch and he lives in a nice house and he kicks ass. And he knows how to fucking fix people really well. He's the best at it. And you go to him and you get an operation and you're fucking golden. That's what you want. When you you want competition because competition inspires excellence. You know, being rewarded for your hard work is a giant incentive for people to get amazing at things. And you need that. You need that too.

• 45:46Joe Rogan?

  But there's also a lot of very good doctors who would be very happy to do something that helps the overall greater good of the community. Just like you have really good criminal defense attorneys that are, you know, assigned to you. If you're, uh, you know, if you're getting unjustly tried and you want a really good one that can help you. You know, there's there's state appointed attorneys that are just good people that want to help people. You know, Bill Murray was talking about his daughter. His daughter does that. This, you know, there's room for that with the amount of money that we spend on so many things that we all agree are fucked. And maybe some of that could be freed up with some of this USAID money that they're pulling.

• 46:32Joe Rogan?

  I mean, there's nothing wrong with giving people healthcare. Like if you know anybody that's been injured and was bankrupt because they didn't have insurance and then they had to get some crazy operation and now they have this enormous debt and they wind up going bankrupt or they're getting chased down for the money for the rest of their life. It's horrible.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  The number one cause of bankruptcy in America.

• 46:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Medical debt. I mean, coming from the UK where we've got the NHS, it feels fucking barbaric.

• 46:56Joe Rogan?

  It is.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  It really does feel barbaric. I remember I went to New Orleans and I was getting this great ghost tour on an evening tour. It's like fun tourist shit to do in New Orleans.

• 47:05Joe Rogan?

  I do those.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  And, uh, the guy, the guide was so good. My mother was a Wiccan and I don't know if that was true, but the tale was lovely. Anyway. And, uh, he was telling me I've got a chipped wisdom tooth and my girlfriend got into a car wreck the other day. And he basically said, he was explaining to me about how you can get bankrupted by this stuff. He's like, if you get hit by a car and you don't have insurance, you better fucking walk it off. Because if you don't, that could be the end of, essentially the beginning of the end of your life.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  And that really, I mean, that was six, seven years ago now, and it's still like, that was the most haunting thing about the fucking Ghost Tour.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Him telling me about the medical debt. And then I think the reaction to the United Health CEO killing as well, for me, somebody who didn't fully understand how many of the claims are denied. I think that there was an increase by about 30% in denial of claims over only the most recent period. And I just thought, guy shoots person, typically the guy that shoots them is in the wrong. And the reaction on the internet, just, I, I wasn't ready for it. And it really sort of taught me this undercurrent of dissatisfaction that almost everybody in America has with the healthcare system.

• 48:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think it's a quiet epidemic. I think there's been a lot of people massively affected by it and they're just steaming. Just sitting there seething, just angry.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Waiting for some righteous person to come in and do.

• 48:32Joe Rogan?

  But then you see the fucking revolving door between the FDA and the pharmaceutical drug corporations where these people leave. And then all of a sudden they have these amazing jobs at pharmaceutical drug companies. They're making millions of dollars. Like, how is that legal? How is this whole thing legal? Like, when you realize that doctors are incentivized to medicate people. They're financially incentivized to give people certain medications, whether it's vaccines, they get bonuses if they vaccinate more than 60% of their clients. And they lose those bonuses if people don't get vaccinated. There's like a lot of creepy shit that's involved in medicine.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  The FDA ban on compounded Ozempic started yesterday.

• 49:15Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's a ban.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  So.

• 49:18Joe Rogan?

  So you have to get it from the big. Big companies.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Correct. Brigham taught me about this. I didn't understand how it works. If there's a shortage of a drug, compounding pharmacies are kind of allowed to just bypass patents in some way. It's like you can produce it and you can make it cheaper and more widely available because the supply chain's fucked or something like that. And yesterday-

• 49:36Joe Rogan?

  That would be a good thing for society.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  Well, to make more drugs more widely available for cheaper.

• 49:40Joe Rogan?

  If it's good, if it's a very important pharmaceutical drug that could save people's lives.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 49:46Joe Rogan?

  Imagine not letting compound pharmacies make it for people that can't get it.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, or can't afford it or don't have the insurance for it. So yeah, I mean, that that came into effect. I think tazepotide got popped yesterday and then partway through April, semaglutide is gonna go as well.

• 50:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's all just eliminating competition, right?

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Well, we need to think, you know, all of the people that are using these drugs, that are losing weight with them, whatever, we need to think about who the real sort of people suffering from this situation are, who are the stock owners of telehealth companies. If you own Hims or whatever, the stock's declined by a lot. But dude, I've been thinking so much about Ozempic recently and I think the introduction of Ozempic proves how much of a scam the body positivity movement was all along.

• 50:33Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  You look at the Golden Globes and all of the women that were supporting their bigger sisters. As soon as there was an easy route to being able to-

• 50:42Joe Rogan?

  They're like gaunt.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  To being able to become a skeleton. They look like this. Look like this guy here.

• 50:48Joe Rogan?

  They all get those sucked in cheeks and the eye sockets suck in.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:52Joe Rogan?

  It looks really creepy.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  It was, it just shows how flimsy your principles are, that it was easier for you to say, "I can't win this particular game, therefore the game is rigged." Like, if you can't get what you want, you have to teach yourself to want what you can get and then proclaim to everybody else that they should get it too.

• 51:10Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  And, yeah, the Golden Globes, you've just got these fucking skeleton motherfuckers walking around.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  And um, yeah, I mean, they, women of Hollywood are now facing the same dilemma that dudes who go to the gym have had for decades. Because it's pointless losing weight naturally. Why would you lose weight naturally? Because everybody's going to accuse you of having used Ozempic in any case. Same thing as a dude. If you gain weight as a guy and you get jacked, really jacked, if you really discipline yourself, you know, multiple years, progressive overload, time under tension, hitting your protein goals, getting enough sleep. What your friends and the people of the internet will say is, yeah, dude, easy if you take trenbolone. And it's the exact same. So what is the incentive for anybody to lose weight naturally? Now, apart from, I have some concerns about the drugs and the side effects and so on and so forth. Socially, there is no incentive for you to lose weight naturally.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Remember when Adele lost all that weight?

• 52:04Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh, I think I got mad at her.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  In the before ti- she did it in the before times, dude.

• 52:08Joe Rogan?

  Right, she did it hard.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, she did it the fucking, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly, extreme difficulty.

• 52:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  But yeah, now.

• 52:14Joe Rogan?

  Now she's hot.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Do you remember when she did that Jamaica thing? She came out and she had all of her hair done like this.

• 52:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  But uh, yeah, there's this odd like Pascal's wager that you have to make where you think, I can either lose weight normally or without assistance, it's going to be more difficult and people are going to accuse me of using Ozempic in any case. Or I can just take it and it'll be easier and they'll accuse me of it. Nothing changes.

• 52:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I'm in favor of Ozempic for people that are morbidly obese. I think anything that can get you on the path. And I think if you can combine that, if you can say, okay, this is what I'm doing. So I'm going to do this and then I'm going to start an exercise program. And then you wind up losing 30, 40 pounds, you feel better, you look better. If you can continue this exercise program, you've at least put a healthy thing in your life along with Ozempic. I think that's critical. Cause also that's can, that can mitigate some of the negative effects of, one of the things that we're seeing is that people are losing a lot of muscle mass and a lot of bone mass, as much as 30% of the weight that people are losing is muscle and bone.

• 53:20Joe Rogan?

  And that, I think, could probably be mitigated with regular strength training. You know, you're only hearing about this from people that aren't strength.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Do not have a fitness regime.

• 53:29Joe Rogan?

  Right, but which is the majority of these people that need this drug.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  That's how they got fat in the first place.

• 53:32Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  So Johann Hari did a really great book on this. You've had Johann on a bunch of times. He wrote this book called Magic Pill, and he's got just a really nice takeaway. He says, if you're under BMI of thirty and you're trying to lose weight, go fuck yourself. If you're between thirty and thirty-five, there's probably a value judgment you need to make. And if you're over thirty-five BMI, the cost benefit analysis seems to sort of work in your favor.

• 53:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, people are losing more muscle and bone mass from using Ozempic than you would typically if you were not using that. But I think that that's just largely a selection criteria for the sort of people that are using Ozempic to help them lose weight, that they're not having, they're so heavily calorie restricted that they don't need to have a fitness program.

• 54:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  They don't have to really change their diet. I learned this, Johann taught me this thing, it's super interesting. Gastric band surgery, after people have that, the suicide risk is pretty high. And sometimes it's because of these surgeons that leave the gauze in or, you know, like leave a scalpel or like a fucking cigar end in. There's complications that can happen physically. But the other thing that happens is these people used food as their coping mechanism for how they would feel better.

• 54:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  And their ability to eat and their appetite has gone away, but their psychological issues have not.

• 54:52Joe Rogan?

  And they don't have a coping mechanism.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  They've no longer got this outlet.

• 54:55Joe Rogan?

  Right. And then there's the issue also, you're not going to feel as good because your body's not absorbing nutrients correctly. You're missing some of your stomach, you know? It's like your stomach fills up quicker because they removed part of it. Like, that can't be good just for overall metabolic health. Like, you've diminished your body's ability to break down food. That just can't be good. And there's other ways to do it. There's other ways to do it. It's like, there's a gambling term that you gotta get better the same way you got sick. So like, say if you and I were playing a pool and we're playing for a hundred dollars a game.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 55:32Joe Rogan?

  And you're up five games, you're up 500 bucks. And I say, next game for 500 bucks. And you go, no, you gotta get better the same way you got sick.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 55:43Joe Rogan?

  You can't just win one game and now you're even. And they're like, come on, what are you, pussy? You scared? Like, no, that's not how this works.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  You lost one at a time, you're not getting it all back.

• 55:52Joe Rogan?

  You went down a dark road and you missed a lot of shots and now you're fucked. And I'm not gonna let you off the hook with one easy thing. I might do that if it's like, okay, you put up a thousand and I'll put up 300. We'll see that.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  You stack it in my, yeah, if you reflect in the odds where we're at financially at the moment.

• 56:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you gotta jack it in my favor while I'm willing to make a risk.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:17Joe Rogan?

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• 57:23Joe Rogan?

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• 58:08Joe Rogan?

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• 58:21Speaker 01

  It's a strange... I think another thing with Ozempic, I have this theory that I think thin people are more prejudiced against people that use Ozempic than fat people are. So typically, you would say... Stay with me.

• 58:34Joe Rogan?

  I think you're right.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  So you would have imagined, and this did happen, some areas of the body positivity movement said that it was denying their right to exist, that it was like erasure, you know? That you're losing your bigger brothers and sisters. I don't know. But they're not actually threatened in the same way as... in weight people are. So I'm aware that losing weight through Ozempic is not the same as getting in shape, especially if you don't do the health and fitness regime, if you don't do the resistance exercise. You end up gone skinny fat, you know, jowls, big cheeks, all that stuff. But the signal of being in shape, let's just take that as being in shape, right? Like a normal BMI. The signal of being in shape is usually a reliable indicator of what you've done to have to get there.

• 59:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Disciplined, reliable, able to do hard things, self-motivated.

• 59:27Joe Rogan?

  Consistent.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Consistent, stick to a routine, conscientious, industrious, all of these things. So you look at somebody who's in shape. And you think, I can infer from your body, a lot of things about who you are beyond just your body. I actually think that this is one of the huge benefits that most people don't realize about getting in shape if they want to attract a partner or whatever. It's sure, the body looks great when you take the clothes off, but what does it signal about your personality, about your underlying values and what you do? Now, the problem with the introduction of easier routes to being in shape is that it's completely derogated the signal. The signal is now no longer reliable.

• 1:00:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Because previously, the signal said, I've had to jump through all of these different hoops. Well, now, how do you know if they've jumped through all of those hoops, or if they're just shooting Ozempic once a week?

• 1:00:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  And I think that this explains why a lot of people who are in shape have a real visceral reaction. Now, sure, lots of people are concerned about the drugs. Fen-phen was this thing in the 90s that fucked people up.

• 1:00:26Joe Rogan?

  It was speed.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's a good way to lose weight.

• 1:00:30Joe Rogan?

  I knew a girl who was on it. She was a very pretty girl that was a little heavy. And then got on the fen-phen and just wanted to talk to everybody, couldn't stop talking, and got real thin. I was like, this is crazy. And then she developed a heart problem.

• 1:00:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that she kept for the rest of her life, I believe. I don't know her anymore, but I ran into her a couple of years later, and she was telling me she has a heart problem.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  There's been no free lunch in weight loss, ever, yet.

• 1:00:56Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  And I think that people are looking at the GLP-1s and thinking, well, it's a side effect. When's it coming? What's it gonna do?

• 1:01:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's tons of side effects. It depends upon the person, because obviously, people are very different biologically. Everyone has a different tolerance to alcohol. People have different tolerances to foods, and you're gonna have different tolerances to medications. And I have good friends that have had horrible side effects from Ozempic. They tried it, they got on it, had terrible pancreatitis. Yeah. I got a buddy of mine, he was in bed for two weeks. He was really sick and I know several other people that just feel terrible when they take it and they had to get off of it. It was really fucking with them. And then I know other people that have taken it, like a buddy of mine that works at the UFC, we ran into him the other day. I'm like, dude, you look fucking great. And he's like, yeah, I got on Ozempic, fuck it. I just went for it. I said, hey, man. And he had a whole plan.

• 1:01:47Joe Rogan?

  He's gonna get down to a certain weight and then he's gonna taper off.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Transition.

• 1:01:51Joe Rogan?

  And he, you know, but he looked great. He looked great.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  You seen Alex Jones?

• 1:01:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but Alex is not on anything.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  I know. So.

• 1:01:57Joe Rogan?

  He's not on Ozempic at all. He's just, he works with my friend Sean.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  On it. I've been watching, I've been watching him train. Been watching him train on a Tuesday. Not watching him train. He trains when I train. I'm not following Alex Jones around. And he's.

• 1:02:10Joe Rogan?

  Likely story.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  Getting after it. I know. That's exactly what someone from the deep state would say.

• 1:02:13Joe Rogan?

  Do you know him? Did you just see him there?

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  I've spied him over the far side.

• 1:02:17Joe Rogan?

  You never had a conversation with him?

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  I once saw him when I did Tim Poole's show in the RV outside of the Infowars car park.

• 1:02:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, I did that.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the same week. That was the first week I was ever in Austin. It was three and a bit years ago. I remember that livestream.

• 1:02:34Joe Rogan?

  That was fun. Alex is a lovely person. He really is.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  He's working really hard in the gym.

• 1:02:39Joe Rogan?

  If he just had that one thing that he didn't talk about, that's it. That one thing. Everything else he's been mostly right about.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  You know what I should have said? Alex Jones is like the fucking patient zero for if you lose weight by going to the gym and working out and changing your diet, people are just gonna say it was Ozempic.

• 1:02:55Joe Rogan?

  No, people think he's a totally different person. They think they've replaced Alex Jones with someone else.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Is this what, did David Icke have a pop at Alex Jones recently?

• 1:03:05Joe Rogan?

  Did he?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Who did David Icke get in trouble with, Jamie? Was that, I feel like there was some, it was somebody else in that sort of a world. But yeah, I mean, if the reptile people like, it does, it gets a bit reptile-y when you get down to the lower body fat percentages.

• 1:03:18Joe Rogan?

  David Icke, I saw something, he got upset that I've never had him on the show. And it's just the reptile stuff. It's just the shapeshifter stuff. I would still have him on. I think fascinating to try to pick some of those ideas apart or listen to them.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Even if you don't believe in the ideas, what's interesting is how does somebody arrive at them?

• 1:03:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  That's what's fascinating to me. When I do my show, I speak to someone, I'm like, I want to understand the psychology of how you have arrived at this particular position.

• 1:03:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, imagine if it's real. I mean, if, if shapeshifters were real, if there really are evil reptilian aliens, and they've infiltrated our society and they've been pulling the strings forever, and only a couple of people knew, how ridiculous would that idea be? How ridicu-- it would be so ridiculous. But is an alien shapeshifter, you know, reptile person, is that any weirder than the most recent theory that our entire universe is taking place inside of a black hole that's in another universe? Yeah, there's recent calculations that are leading these, I guess it would be astrophysicists,

• 1:04:29Joe Rogan?

  like who would, who'd be studying this? See if you can find it, Jamie. It's the most bizarre headline. Because you're like, what the fuck are you saying? Like, the whole universe is inside of a black hole? New NASA data hints we could be living inside a black hole. Great. Now, is that, isn't that weirder than reptile people? Because reptile people is like--

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  Those are the two choices.

• 1:04:53Joe Rogan?

  Reptile people's not that weird, right? Like, octopi have the ability to completely transform their appearance and instantaneously adapt to an environment. Why wouldn't we assume to some super advanced species from another planet that would be, we would be horrified if we saw their real face? They'd just transform and look like the Queen of England.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and go sideways like that. Do you know what a Boltzmann brain is? Have you ever heard of this?

• 1:05:19Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Okay, so, in an infinite universe, infinite, there is only, let's say, the size of your brain, it's like, whatever, 20 centimeters cubed or something, maybe 30 centimeters cubed. Inside that space, there's only so many ways that you can put matter together so that it creates anything. There's a limited number of ways that matter can come together with different elements, different structures, different everything like that. So Boltzmann brain suggests that across an infinite universe, there will be a brain, the exact same as yours, the exact structure as yours, that comes into existence for a moment and then goes away. And the reason that you could be experiencing the world that you are now, all of your memories, your past, your history, the person that you think you are,

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  is that you are a Boltzmann brain that just comes into existence and then goes. Ludwig Boltzmann.

• 1:06:08Joe Rogan?

  Why do you come into existence and then go away? Why don't you just exist somewhere else?

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  You could exist somewhere else, but this brain appears just spontaneously because in an infinite universe, there are only so many different ways that you can piece matter together.

• 1:06:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  And it means that if you, it's the monkey's typewriter thing. It's the exact same as that, but for the way that matter is constructed. It's basically like a brain in a vat idea, but using infinite physics to kind of explain it.

• 1:06:35Joe Rogan?

  The way it was explained to me is that if the universe is truly infinite, not only is there another version of you somewhere, but there is another version of you that did the exact same thing you have done every step of the way. Every time you sneezed, every hesitation before you spoke your mind, every time you almost went into traffic when you didn't realize the light was still red. All of those things have happened in the exact same order an infinite number of times and every possible conceivable variation.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  That you went red instead of blue.

• 1:07:13Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  That you turned left instead of right.

• 1:07:15Joe Rogan?

  Yep. Went trans instead of straight. All of it, all of it. That you live in a totalitarian environment, that you live in a utopia, that you, that, you know, the, the Germans won the war, that, yeah, all that, everything. Everything that could possibly be different would be different and in every possible scenario. That's what infinite means. It means it's so vast. Like, the craziest one to me was the concept that inside every galaxy, in the center of every galaxy is a supermassive black hole. And that supermassive black hole is approximately one half of 1% of the mass of the entire galaxy. If you go into that supermassive black, so there's hundreds of billions of galaxies, right?

• 1:07:58Joe Rogan?

  Inside that supermassive black hole is an entirely another universe filled with uni, with, with all sorts of different galaxies that have supermassive black holes in them. You go into one of those, another universe filled, supermassive black holes, another universe filled, all supermassive black holes, each one, another universe.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  It's just a win zip file all the way down.

• 1:08:21Joe Rogan?

  But why is that weirder than the universe is infinite? Why is that weirder? I mean, just the weirdness of what it is is so fucking insane. The idea that it's infinite or that there's... In infinite multiverses, in infinite versions of these things, inside black holes and in all sorts of ways that we haven't even really figured out yet. That's not that much weirder than what's real. What's real is insane. What's real is that the whole thing was smaller than the head of a pin. And for no understandable reason, it expanded instantaneously and became the universe that you see in the sky today. Okay? Okay. What the fuck are you saying?

• 1:09:04Joe Rogan?

  Like, they kinda had a great line about that, that science requires of you but one miracle. The big bang. It's a miracle. It's, it's, what is it if it's not that? I mean, it's a thing of science, yes. Okay. So if you can study all of the matter, and you study all of the forces, and all the energy, and all the reasons why matter coalesces, or matter expands, yes, you could probably, given enough time and enough quantum computing power, figure out what's causing everything to compress down smaller than the head of a pin, and then explode. But, it's still crazy.

• 1:09:44Joe Rogan?

  It's, even if you can, you had some scientific explanation for it, it's fucking insane.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  I got into super voids. So there's the Buettis super void. So areas of the universe that have big absences of matter, way more than there should be. And the Buettis super void is the biggest one. I think a ton 6118 or something is one of the biggest stars, or one of the biggest black holes. And then this Buettis super void is, because you would expect homogeneity.

• 1:10:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Across the universe. Things should be distributed pretty evenly.

• 1:10:20Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  So what's this big hole? Here, Jamie, can you try and find a Buettis Buettis?

• 1:10:26Joe Rogan?

  I love the videos that show you the size of Earth, and the size of our sun, and the size of other suns.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  You realize just how fucking insignificant you are.

• 1:10:34Joe Rogan?

  You get the suns that are as big as our galaxy.

• 1:10:38Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck?

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:39Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck?

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I.

• 1:10:43Joe Rogan?

  I don't know if there's suns that big, but there's definitely suns as big as our solar system.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Well, looking at the night sky gives you a really wonderful piece of perspective. Right? It reminds you just how puny and insignificant you are.

• 1:10:54Joe Rogan?

  I think that's a giant problem with our society is that light pollution keeps us from seeing that all the time.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  The mysterious hole in the universe that's billions of times larger than the Milky Way.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  So go one left, a list of voids. Yeah, that one.

• 1:11:09Joe Rogan?

  Just big holes.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you should not have, it should be more evenly distributed. And yeah, the Buette is void, you know, this hu- huge lack.

• 1:11:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  In the middle of. Yeah, it's so cool.

• 1:11:25Joe Rogan?

  Imagine you take a left turn in a spaceship and you fuck up.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Not here, not the Buette super void, not again. God damn it.

• 1:11:32Joe Rogan?

  You, you can't land for a hundred million years.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Dude, I had a, I had Matthew McConaughey on the show toward the back end of last year, and we talked about Interstellar's 10th year anniversary. That show is still, that, that movie is still my favorite movie of all time.

• 1:11:45Joe Rogan?

  It's an amazing movie. I just saw it again like a couple of weeks ago.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:11:49Joe Rogan?

  It was incredible. It's so good. It's so weird. Such a weird movie.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Nolan's a fucking king.

• 1:11:54Joe Rogan?

  He's a wizard.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Everything that he does.

• 1:11:56Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  What's the new one? He's, what's his new movie that he's in?

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  The Odyssey, I think.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:02Joe Rogan?

  What is the Odyssey?

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  Like the Homer, like the.

• 1:12:05Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God, really? Ooh.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  I don't know that story either, so I'm kind of.

• 1:12:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't either.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  Part of me knows that I should have read it and part of me is glad that I didn't, so I get to, I don't know how it finishes. I don't know how it ends.

• 1:12:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I think I probably read it in high school, but I don't remember it at all.

• 1:12:20Speaker 02

  This is all we got, I think, is this picture of Matt Damon in this outfit.

• 1:12:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's gonna kill it.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  There already complains that it's not historically accurate.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Why? Because of Matt Damon?

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  No, because that's not what the armor would have looked like, apparently, would have, but he wouldn't have been able to see his face, apparently, but.

• 1:12:34Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, but not if you make a movie.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Makes for a shit movie, though. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:12:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. That's, they're complaining already.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:12:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you can't always be historically accurate, I guess.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that's all they got so far. Cast and.

• 1:12:47Joe Rogan?

  Tom Holland, Robert Pattinson. Nice.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely stacked. Did you see, uh, Matt Damon do Schultz's trailer?

• 1:12:56Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I did. Yeah.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  So fucking good. I have to say, man, that Schultz's most recent special is one of the best things. I gotta shout out Andrew Schultz. Like, that was one of the best things that I've seen in so long. I thought it was fucking phenomenal. It made me cry when I saw it live here in Austin, twice. I cried twice.

• 1:13:15Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  And then I saw it again before I had him on the show the other week. I was like, in the back of an Uber, and like, trying to not let the taxi driver see that I'm welling up. He's talking about, his wife says something to him where she says, um, the thing is, honey, you don't have problems, we have problems. I was like, oh, it's just so lovely. And him talking about his experience trying to get pregnant and all of that stuff, caused me to go and get a, get sperm count done. I'm not trying to get anybody pregnant, not at the moment, but uh.

• 1:13:46Joe Rogan?

  How old are you?

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Thirty-seven.

• 1:13:48Joe Rogan?

  Do you have a number where you'd like to start breeding?

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Breeding? Within the next few years, I want to start a family soon.

• 1:13:56Joe Rogan?

  Do you have a gal?

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, at the moment, yeah, I do.

• 1:13:58Joe Rogan?

  How long you been with this gal?

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  Six months.

• 1:14:00Joe Rogan?

  Did you ever go on a trip with her?

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you gotta go on a long trip with them.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  Well, I think that six months might be a little bit early just yet.

• 1:14:07Joe Rogan?

  No, if you want to find out what's up, you gotta go on a trip.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  Oh, you mean to work out compatibility?

• 1:14:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you gotta see how they deal with travel, how they deal with stress, how they deal with restaurant. What is it, can they keep up their act when you're with them 24 hours a day for weeks at a time?

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  It was when I, I actually did do a week-long trip in Jamaica.

• 1:14:28Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:49Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  And had to go from Montego Bay to Kingston twice to get my visa renewed. Now, traveling through Jamaican traffic with somebody will really tell you an awful lot. So, yeah, you're talking about like a Navy SEAL hell week of trying to throw difficult shit in there. So that worked.

• 1:16:44Joe Rogan?

  You just need to see what people are like when they're with you all the time. Because people put on a show. They put on a show. You're a handsome guy. You're successful. They want to impress you. They want to pretend they're something that you would love. And then maybe they have ideas of morphing you and changing you over time. You know, like you get a car. It gets pretty good, but I like to update the engine. I do some shit to the tires, maybe change the way the interior looks. You start changing it and then all of a sudden Chris is wearing different clothes. What's going on, Chris?

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  Gotta be careful. Put these glasses on, that's why. But yeah, I decided to go and get a sperm count thing done. You know a varicose seal is?

• 1:17:21Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  Okay, dude, this is something that I think every single guy needs to know about. So it's basically when you go through puberty, the way that the veins sort of form that blow heat off from your balls, they can form in a way where they just don't get rid of the heat that efficiently.

• 1:17:38Joe Rogan?

  They don't cool your balls good.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Not enough. And it's in 15% of men, so it's super, super common, but 50% of men that go to urologists have got this. And I go in and I've had these balls my entire life. I've had these balls, thank you, they're not transplants. I've had these balls since puberty and I found out at the age of 36, oh, you've got a medium varicose seal. So the mad thing about this is, you'll know this, if you take testosterone, it plummets your sperm count. So typically testosterone and sperm kind of work against each other in that kind of a direction. This is the one thing where if you get it fixed, both go up. So the mean change in testosterone is 180 points.

• 1:18:20Joe Rogan?

  How do they fix it?

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  They just, it's surgery. It's a small surgery where they do an incision in your groin and they just fix the vasculature.

• 1:18:29Joe Rogan?

  Balls and surgery are two things that I don't like together. I like both of them. I don't think they should be together.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Never the twain shall meet. Yeah.

• 1:18:38Joe Rogan?

  Ball surgery is scary. Do you know that if you get your, you can get a dick transplant if like you lose your dick, but you cannot get ball transplants? You know why?

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:18:47Joe Rogan?

  Because you will carry the DNA of the original person. So say if I die and you get my balls, you will have my DNA, you will have my kids.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  So why can't I have your balls?

• 1:18:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, you could if I gave you permission maybe, but it's unethical.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  Why don't we swap one ball each? I was like tossing a coin.

• 1:19:05Joe Rogan?

  See whose kids make it?

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Oh, it was Lefty that made it. Lefty was the one that came out that day.

• 1:19:09Joe Rogan?

  God damn it, all my kids are Chris's! The fuck?

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Come out speaking British.

• 1:19:12Joe Rogan?

  That would be funny if we both like if you had elective surgery to swap balls with a good buddy. Like, I love you so much, I want to swap a ball with you.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:19:20Joe Rogan?

  And we both swap.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  We just don't know which one it's gonna be today.

• 1:19:22Joe Rogan?

  It's like, cause I had a gay couple that were friends that lived down the street from me. And they had a kid with surrogate and they shot their jizz into a cup and mixed it up. So they didn't know who's gonna be the one that has the kid.

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:19:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Two men, one cup.

• 1:19:38Joe Rogan?

  They had to do it twice, too, because the first time the lady kept the kid. They paid her, they did the whole thing. At the end of it, she decided she wanted to keep the baby.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Dude, the ethics of surrogacy are really interesting.

• 1:19:48Joe Rogan?

  It's weird. It's a weird thing. You're hiring someone to have your baby for you? And then wealthy people are doing it so they don't get their cooch stretched out?

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  That was the Kardashian approach.

• 1:20:00Joe Rogan?

  Allegedly, that's why she did it. Well, maybe she just didn't want to carry babies anymore. She had a couple of them the normal way. And then, but it's like so much of what the child experiences in the womb. It like leads to this, I would imagine, this bonding thing with the woman. The baby's inside of you. You remember feeling the baby inside of you, grows inside of you, then it comes out of you and you raise it and it breastfeeds. It's like this bond is, I understand surrogacy if someone can't get pregnant, if this is the only way you can have kids. I'm not saying don't do it. But I'm saying it's fucking strange. Because this other person is whatever anxiety they have, fear, their cortisol levels, if they have domestic abuse in their house.

• 1:20:44Joe Rogan?

  Like, all that information is being transferred to the child.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  Pregnancy doesn't just make a kid, it also makes a mother.

• 1:20:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  And it's dangerous. I'm so confused. I mean, test your babies. What happens if we can just create artificial wombs? You know something that's weird? I know that people don't get, they don't choose to be born. But somebody chooses whether or not these two sets of DNA are going to come together. If you've just got sperm donor after sperm donor and egg donor after egg donor and artificial wombs. Gets to the stage where people kind of aren't choosing. Who's coming into reality that much anymore?

• 1:21:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, that is definitely the future. I mean, look at plummeting sperm counts. Look at rising miscarriage rates. Look at the problems that people are having with microplastics and the disruption of the endocrine system and pesticides and herbicides and all these different ubiquitous chemicals that are affecting people's sperm counts and fertility. It's a real factor and it's plummeting. If you look at the, if you look at like, human beings from the last sixty, seventy years and you look at males in America, where their sperm count used to be and where it is now, it's rapidly decreasing. There's a lot of factors, sedentary lifestyle, processed foods, but there's also environmental

• 1:22:06Joe Rogan?

  factors that seem to be altering the actual way a child develops in the womb. And this is Dr. Shanna Swan's work.

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  Countdown.

• 1:22:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, which is incredible, just, it's an incredible book, but it's just an incredible fact that the plastics that we use from microwave foods and water bottles and all that stuff is literally changing the development of children. It's changing the size of their testicles, the size of their penises, the-

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Anogenital distance.

• 1:22:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, the taint shrinks. It's really crazy stuff and it's, it replicates what happens in mammals when they, when they do these studies with rats and hamsters and same things happen.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  A third of all children globally are going to be obese by 2050.

• 1:22:53Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  That's the current trajectory and one billion people worldwide are obese. So, the number one form of malnutrition globally is obesity, not starvation. There's twice as many people that are obese than are starving.

• 1:23:08Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  If that's not a comment on problems of abundance as opposed to problems of scarcity.

• 1:23:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's not even abundance, though. It's the food is so calorie-rich and filled with shit, you know, that you just, you just, you get so fat so quick. Like, if you're eating nothing but junk food and drinking nothing but soda, as I sit here with a large Diet Coke, which I usually don't drink, but I do occasionally, that is, like, a Diet Coke at least doesn't have the calories, but if you're having a large Coke like that, like, if you have a Coke like this, what is this, a liter? This is probably a liter.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  Seven fifty, maybe, or a liter?

• 1:23:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a liter. So- How much sugar is in one liter of Coca-Cola? Let's find that out.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  But there's nothing in that one, right? Which is why it's a diet.

• 1:23:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's just brain cancer.

• 1:23:58Joe Rogan?

  Donald Rumsfeld approved brain cancer.

• 1:24:00Speaker 02

  94.7 grams of sugar in a liter of Coca-Cola.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  So much sugar.

• 1:24:04Joe Rogan?

  94.7 grams. And people polish these things off every day. Someone's polishing off a two-liter of Mountain Dew listening to this as we speak. So that's probably double that. So that's hundreds, hundreds of grams of sugar.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  The big gulps. Yeah, the average American is fatter than the average American pig now.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  It's true, it's true.

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  Average American man, 28% body fat. Average American woman, 40% body fat. Average American pig, 15 to 25% body fat.

• 1:24:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:24:39Joe Rogan?

  I would have thought it would be higher than 28%. I think we're doing pretty good.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  For guys?

• 1:24:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I guess it's it's offset by like Brian Johnson and all of the Ozempic people that are just like

• 1:24:49Joe Rogan?

  Shredded folks.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  Super shredded, yeah, exactly. And then there was that that other thing about you talking about kids. That some huge percentage of 18 to 24-year-olds couldn't join the military.

• 1:24:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  Like 70% because of mental health or obesity or or drug use or something. And half of them had two or more of these excuses for why you couldn't do it. And I think if you track over time, the amount of military service that people have had, so much less. Now, it's so much less. And I wonder how many of the issues that we're seeing, even uh, women being attracted to guys. I think that what you want to do as a guy is try and signal uh, the, again, the same as going to the gym. Reliable, orderly, conscientious, can be on time, I can do hard things. This is one of the proposed explanations for the baby boom was that a lot of men that did come back from war were signaling their eligibility, signaling how reliable they could be.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  And it made it easier for women to be attracted in that way.

• 1:25:45Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense. I mean, imagine a woman, you're you're going to get pregnant. And so you're you're going to be, you could work for a little while, but towards the end, you're not going to be able to work. And then after the child, it's going to be very difficult to work. So you're reliant on this other person. That like, how well do you know this person? Did you do that ten day vacation in Jamaica with that guy?

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Did you go, did you drive from Montego Bay to Kingston twice in bad traffic?

• 1:26:09Joe Rogan?

  Do you know what happens when he makes mistakes? Does he blame other people? Or does, does he apologize? Like what, who is he? You know, cause all that shit's gonna come up when you get four hours sleep cause the baby's crying and, and then, you know, maybe he doesn't like his job anymore. He wants to quit and you're like, you can't quit, motherfucker. You have to feed us.

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:28Joe Rogan?

  You have to take care of a family now. You're not gonna just quit. What are you talking about? You don't like your job? Show up. And I can't imagine relying on another person like that. I mean, this is why women are so picky. Like when you see that eighty percent of the women are attracted to twenty percent of the men. And that's, that's what that is.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  What did you expect?

• 1:26:51Joe Rogan?

  What did you expect? It's, it's hard to have your shit together. It's hard to be kicking ass in this fucking complicated bizarre world that we live in. It's hard. So for a woman, of course, they're gonna grab, oh, what about personality? Yeah, you're a fucking lazy bitch. That's part of your personality. Part of the reason why you're not successful at forty years of age has to be you. Has to be. Some of it has to be. I mean, it could be a fucking avalanche of bad luck. One thing after the other, but I would like to see that you're making progress towards a better direction. But if you're stuck in this modal, if you're stuck in this mindset of, you know,

• 1:27:33Joe Rogan?

  the world fucks me over, it's like never gonna, no one's gonna wanna be with you. No one's gonna wanna have children with you. No one's gonna, no one's gonna be willing to rely on you to support a family. Like you have to get your shit together. And you have to also be attractive, which is just dumb luck. Like you have the dumb luck of genetics. You got a good face. Ooh, you know, you got a good body. A lot of that's genetics too. You know, like what they like and what they don't like is mostly about breeding.

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:28:02Joe Rogan?

  It's mostly about, is this person reliable to breed with?

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  It's interesting to think about the, you mentioned earlier on about going to the gym is right wing and liking fast cars is right wing and all the rest of it. The number of liberal women that are struggling, I think, to find an eligible partner is going up because they just can't find a guy that'll hold the door open for them, that'll treat them like a lady, that'll try and be the protector, provider, pro creator thing. You go. You're talking about a conservative. You're talking about somebody who's more traditional in that way. And I get worried, you know, I sort of talk a lot about this stuff on the show and I get worried about not helping men to improve in this sort of zero sum view of empathy. That if you give some attention to men and the way that they're struggling, that it takes it away from some other more deserving group.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  So a lot of the time, if someone's falling behind, 50 years ago, Title IX gets introduced, right, for women. It's not enough women in higher education, it's not enough women expediting them through socioeconomic status. 50 years later, they've blown the fucking roof off the glass ceiling. It doesn't exist. Two women for every one man completing a four-year US college degree by 2030. Women earn way more than men do in their twenties, way more. And now, how are you, it's going to be difficult for you to find an eligible partner as you begin to climb up your own socioeconomic ladder as you get higher and higher up. You look across and there are fewer and fewer men over there. And what you think is, okay, well, typically, if a group is falling behind in society, we don't tell them to pick themselves up by their bootstraps.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  We spend billions of money in taxpayer-funded charities and think tanks to try and work out what's going on and to try and bring them along for the ride. That's not happening with men because vestigially, for so long, men had it so good.

• 1:29:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  And now it's, I don't know, it feels like twisting the knife in some sort of karmic retribution in a way, like this is penance that you're paying. But a lot of guys, you can look at the number of CEOs and sure, guys that outperform on the top end, yep. But that's not necessarily due to privilege. It's because putting yourself in that position to do what you need to do to get yourself to the position of being a founder, being a CEO, having, running a successful company is so fucking insane that most women would just choose to not go and do that. You're talking about outliers. Evolutionary psychology says that men are nature's playthings, that there's more variability. There's more male geniuses, but there's also more male retards. And it's all well and good, pointing to the number of CEOs and Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk and all the rest of it.

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  That doesn't help the guy who is really struggling and has had that run of bad luck and has been really struggling, trying to work on himself. And yeah, if women have a problem, a lot of the time, we say, what can we do to fix society, any other group. But if men are struggling, we say, what is it that men are doing where they can't fix themselves?

• 1:30:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  And in some ways, that's inspiring. Like, guys want that sense of like, I can fucking do this, I can do this. But it denies that there's structural problems. I think the education system for young boys is really, really tough, getting them to sit in a classroom still for six hours a day. It seems like females are just better at doing that. Young girls are more effective at a sort of brain-based economy, highlighting and planning ahead of the homework that they've got to do and the assignments and stuff like that. And you just roll that forward. Two women for every one man completing a four-year college degree. Then, I'm not saying, oh, let's rip women out of the classroom and out of the boardroom and put them back into the kitchen. Like, obviously not. Obviously, that's not what either of us are saying.

• 1:31:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, what do you think is the cause of it? Like, what do you think is the reason why more men aren't succeeding and getting college degrees and more men aren't going out and making as much money in their twenties?

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  I think that the current environment does not necessarily lend itself to the disposition that men have got. So they're less conscientious than women from a personality standpoint, on average. That means that it's really difficult comparatively, on average, for you to be able to remind yourself that you need to do the sort of homework. Men are more predisposed to addiction, they're more predisposed to using recreational drugs, they're more predisposed to being in jail, to all of this sort of gang stuff that people get drawn into. It's just more likely for guys, there are more roots that men can be pulled away in that sort of a manner. And on top of it, I don't think that there is a particularly inspiring vision for what men aspire.

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  You said earlier on about fitness right wing, fast cars right wing. There was this thread on Reddit, I think in a left-leaning forum, that said, people of the left, can you give me a good example of who you think a positive male role model would be? The top-voted one was Aragon from Lord of the Rings.

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  What about Fabio? You've had to go to Fantasyland in order to be able to find somebody who's sufficiently pure. And I think that, you know, this is one of the issues that we see on the left, which is there is no level of purity, or the level of purity you need to be able to get to is so high. Doesn't exist. How many people have gone from left to right? I left the left type thing like that? Quite a few. How many people have gone from right to left? Fairly few. Why? Because if you have got a slightly fettered past, if you maybe said things in the past that didn't agree with where we are at now, the right will welcome you with open arms, but the left won't. Why do you think that is?

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  I think that there is a level of puritanism on the left where they are unprepared to, they're unprepared to accept people who have had positions that they don't agree with. There seems to be this odd purity spiral where they're constantly trying to point out people who are no longer agreeing with the ideology du jour of the modern world. What do you think? Why do you think it is?

• 1:33:59Speaker 06

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• 1:34:30Joe Rogan?

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• 1:35:15Joe Rogan?

  Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card. Provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details. I think that's probably a factor. I also think that corporate America, the whole structure of it with human resources and people working together. It's just like, it's not necessarily what men want. What men want, if you want men to work in the best environment possible for men, they would work with mostly men. And they would probably be able to speak and communicate in a way that they did on Mad Men.

• 1:36:00Joe Rogan?

  You know, they'd act like men. Like, men like to act like men. Most men that are involved in corporate life act like some strange character. That is what a man is supposed to be. Especially if you're supposed to espouse all the latest social justice. You know, whatever the mantra is you have to repeat. If you have to rigidly adhere to an ideology in order to fit in with your corporate environment, you're going to do that. And you're going to be trapped in that and you're going to just desperately want some escape. That's why CEOs wind up going to dominatrix and getting fucking ball gagged and kicking the balls and shit. Like, what do you think that is?

• 1:36:42Joe Rogan?

  It's like, they need something, something wild to escape from the mundane existence that they have in the corporate world.

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  That's a person that's in control all the time, so privately I need to be out of control.

• 1:36:53Joe Rogan?

  It's just not compatible for most men. Like, that type of environment. A work office environment, it's not compatible. You don't, nobody wants to do that. What you want is the rewards of that. You want the money. You know, you want success. You want status. You want all those things. You want the corner office. But what you don't want is to work in that environment. If you could choose to make the same kind of money, doing things that you love to do, having fun. Like, if all these corporate CEOs could make as much money playing golf, I bet they would play golf. I don't think they really wanna be doing that. They're doing that because it's the way in order, it's the way to succeed and the way to make money. And it feels like hell.

• 1:37:37Joe Rogan?

  Feels like hell. You're stuck in traffic every day. You're stuck in the office. You're not working eight hours a day if you wanna really make it. And this is the, this is like the why the wage gap between men and women was such an insidious lie. Cause they were always saying, women make seventy-five cents to every dollar a man makes. And people repeat that without understanding what it actually means. No, it's, it's job choices and hours worked. Those are the primary factors that lead to men earning more money than women. It's, it's not a man and a woman are doing the same job and someone rips off the woman by only giving her seventy-five cents to what the man works. If that was the case, and the woman does just, yeah, you would only employ women. Cause women, you'd pay them less, they'd do a better job anyway, right ladies?

• 1:38:19Joe Rogan?

  So there you go. It's nonsense. But that thing that Obama repeated on television, I remember watching him say that going, he knows better than this. This is bullshit. This is a bullshit statistic. But it's a, it's a heartstring statistic. It, it plays, yeah, it plays on your, what you want to believe rather than what's true. And women have to take time off for maternity leave. They have to, you know, if they get pregnant, it's gonna significantly, significantly impact the amount of hours they're willing to work. They might not want to do the job anymore. Once they're raising their children, if their husband's making enough money, they probably wanna quit. They wanna be at home with their kids. It's a normal thing. And then a lot of women who are career corporate women are shamed for wanting to stay home with their children.

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, you've been conned by the patriarchy into being a domestic prostitute. So I was talking to, was it Schultz that said this? I think it was. He was telling me on the show. He said that his wife used to work at Google, I think. She was like super high-powered, real smart lady. And she used to bump into her old colleagues in the supermarket when they were together. And the classic question that somebody that's in the career trenches asks somebody else is, oh, so what are you doing now? You left, you left work. What, what are you doing now? And Schultz said this sentence that his wife replied with would fucking kill him. She says, oh, I'm just a mum. He said it's the just that really hurt. I'm just a mum.

• 1:39:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's how you feel like you're supposed to admit that you're just a mom.

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  That fucking hurts, dude, to derogate the people that are literally raising the next generation.

• 1:39:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  That's another point, actually, about sort of men falling behind. I think it seems like young boys are more negatively impacted by fatherless homes than young girls are. So any boy that grows up in an in- intact, a non-intact household, is more likely to end up in jail or prison than they are to complete college.

• 1:40:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  In the US.

• 1:40:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  Any non-intact, that's adopted, stepparent, single parent, any non-intact home, they're more likely to end up in jail or in prison than they are to complete college.

• 1:40:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  And the same statistic is not true for girls. And this, again, the zero-sum-ness of the, so what are you saying? You're saying that we need to, we need to hold girls back? It's like, no, you do not need to hold one group back in order to be able to raise another one up. We spent 50 years really pedestalizing and helping take the reins off of young girls so that socio-economically, they can look after themselves, they're no longer financial prisoners

• 1:40:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  of their partner, which is a big deal. You look at the divorce statistics from the past and proclaim it as some, you know, amazing cultural outgrowth. And you go, how many women stayed in those relationships because they fucking couldn't afford to leave?

• 1:41:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:41:04Speaker 01

  They had no other option to do that. That's scary.

• 1:41:07Joe Rogan?

  That's scary. That's why women are so picky. And they should be.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:41:11Joe Rogan?

  That's, yeah. It's, it's also crazy that we put value in our lives on money above everything, including above doing a good job raising your children. You put the money that you earn above that, and you just get daycare during the day. I'll be home at six, that's fine. That's plenty of time to be with my kid. And there's a lot of people that live their life by that, and their ledger, when they look at the amount of money that they've earned, that's what That's the reward.

• 1:41:43Speaker 01

  It's the greatest metric in the world, though. It's the most easy to optimize thing. Like, I can tell you the size of the house that I live in. I can tell you how much money I earn. I can tell you what the car is like that I drive. But I can't tell you how much peace I have when my head hits the pillow at night.

• 1:41:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  I can't tell you what the quality of the relationship between me and my wife or me and my kids is. I can't tell you how much time I got to spend in a hammock last week. You know, these are the things, I think, that if you were able to metric it, if you were able to make it a game, people would be able to pay an awful lot more attention to it.

• 1:42:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  But the money's the best game in the world. It's literally currency, exchange, you can exchange. I know what your wealth is compared with that guy in Japan, compared with that dude in Russia, compared with this person that's Australian. Whole world, it's the best game ever created.

• 1:42:26Joe Rogan?

  And it's the game that so many people use to show their value. I mean, it's not just the richness of your life, the happiness that you have, the fulfilled feeling that you have when you do whatever it is that you do, where you feel like you have a sense of purpose. No, that's not, can't quantify that, can't measure it, can't put it on a scale. It's useless. Meanwhile, it's the most important thing.

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:42:51Joe Rogan?

  The most important thing is satisfaction. Satisfaction in your life, community, love, friendship, happiness, a sense of purpose, like you enjoy what you do. That's so important for life. If you are just doing something you don't want to do just for money, you live in hell. And that's most people. Most people live in this, like, dull hell. And they try to have fun while they're at work. They try to, you know, have people that they talk to at work. Hopefully, you make some good friends at work and you can enjoy your chitter chatter at the water cooler. But the reality of that life is just mostly suck.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  There's a lot of problems, I think, that people that are driven face that don't get that much sympathy. So I had this idea that type A people have type B problems and type B people have type A problems. So insecure overachievers need to learn how to chill out and lazy people need to learn how to work hard and be more disciplined. And, you know, most people that listen to shows like yours or mine are probably some version of type A, like a kind of walking anxiety disorder harnessed for productivity.

• 1:43:59Joe Rogan?

  That's a great definition.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:44:02Joe Rogan?

  That's really accurate.

• 1:44:03Speaker 01

  I think the thing that type A people realize is that if you're type A, you get very little sympathy because a outwardly successful but miserable person is way less, always appears to be in a much more preferential position than a content being lazy but on the verge of bankruptcy one.

• 1:44:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 1:44:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  So, problems of opportunity will always get less sympathy than ones of scarcity. Like, one feels like a choice and the other feels like a limitation. One is like a bourgeois luxury and the other is like a systemic imposition. You know, I need someone to teach me how to switch off and relax feels dopaminergic and opulent and addicted and privileged. I need someone how to teach me how to work harder feels noble and upward aiming. And like you're supporting, you're supporting the downtrodden. Like every underdog movie in history has a training montage of some guy down on his luck that gets saved by the right woman or a Japanese dude that teaches him to wash cars

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  or whatever it is and through grit, grit and spit and sawdust, he sorts himself out. And he fixes his life.

• 1:45:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:15Speaker 01

  No movie explains how to log out of Slack at 6pm.

• 1:45:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  Or spend a day at the beach without feeling guilty.

• 1:45:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, I think in that sense, type A people may objectively have better lives. But subjectively, they're ravaged by the sense that they've never done enough.

• 1:45:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  They wake up every single morning feeling as if they're already trying to repay some productivity debt and only if they dance through the day completely perfectly, nail every single task, can they go to bed not feeling like a waste man.

• 1:45:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  That's where they're at. Congratulations. You might be very successful. You also might be very miserable.

• 1:45:58Joe Rogan?

  You're most likely going to be miserable. That's the cold, hard reality of most CEOs. Most really wealthy people, when you see them pull up in the yacht, they're fucking living hell.

• 1:46:10Speaker 01

  I think when you look at people that are super outlier performers, you should probably, your first emotion should not be envy, it should be pity. You should think, what's that person, what's it like inside of that person to drive them to do what they did to themselves? To put them in that position? What's, what's their background like? What happened in their childhood? What did they think about their own sense of self-worth?

• 1:46:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, or how much Adderall are they on?

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  Ah, the old performance enhancer, the testosterone for the businessman.

• 1:46:41Joe Rogan?

  It's not just performance enhancer, I think it changes the way you approach things. I think-

• 1:46:47Speaker 01

  Have you ever taken it?

• 1:46:48Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  No?

• 1:46:49Joe Rogan?

  No, I'm scared of, I'm scared of speed. I'm scared of anything that I think I would really like.

• 1:46:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you haven't done cocaine for the same reason, right?

• 1:46:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, I was very lucky when I was in high school, I knew some people that had problems with it.

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  Big warning sign.

• 1:47:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, and back then I was very driven, like I didn't even party, really. I only wanted to get good at martial arts. I was so driven that I didn't want to do anything that would interfere with anything else.

• 1:47:16Speaker 01

  What was it that drove you? Why? Why did strive for so long?

• 1:47:20Joe Rogan?

  Ah, it's probably a lot of factors. I mean, I got into it because I didn't want to get picked on because I didn't know how to fight. And I would be nervous around bullies, I didn't know what to do. And I'm like this, I don't like this feeling at all, like, so I will become what everyone's afraid of. So I'll do that. And then when I got into it, I realized that, first of all, I realized that I could get really good at things. I realized that whatever drive that I had and whatever thing about fighting, which was so scary to me, why was so appealing to me at the same time. And I realized that it was like a vision quest. I was on this quest to try to figure out how to harness my potential.

• 1:48:01Joe Rogan?

  And what better way than to do something that's very difficult and very scary? And then if you could get really good at something very difficult and very scary, you could probably master life.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  So you had this gateway drug through martial arts?

• 1:48:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  That was a proof to you that you could self-author?

• 1:48:19Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yeah, a proof that I wasn't a loser. For me, it was like that I could be successful.

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  Where did that, I've heard you say that before about the loser thing. Where did that fear come from? Did you feel powerless as a kid at some point?

• 1:48:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm sure it comes from broken home, moving around a lot, a lot of factors. There's a lot of, a lot of various factors. But it's also just the existential angst of being a young man. Like, we, you, they're looking for purpose. Like, who am I? What do I do? Am I good at anything? Like, what, what gives me value? And for me, when I started doing martial arts, it was the first time that I was respected. And not just respected, like, I remember the first time I realized that people would gather around when I fought. I was like, whoa, this is kind of crazy. Like, they're, they specifically want to watch me fight. And that was a big deal to me.

• 1:49:13Joe Rogan?

  It's like that I was so good that people were gathering around. Really, it was they wanted to see something horrible. They wanted to see someone get head kicked, you know, and they knew I did that a lot.

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  Reliably, you could kick someone in the head.

• 1:49:25Joe Rogan?

  I was pretty good at it. And so, that, that changed me. It changed my self-reflection. It changed who I was. I wasn't a loser. Now I was an extreme winner and really good at it and super disciplined. And driven beyond anything that I thought was possible before I'd done that. I never had, like, that kind of focus before I got into martial arts. But martial arts demanded that kind of focus because you can't pretend. There's no pretending you're good. You have to be good. There's no pretending you're fast. You have to be fast. There's no pretending to be technical. You have to be perfect. Yeah, your technique has to be perfect.

• 1:50:10Joe Rogan?

  Because you're fighting against other trained killers. Like, you're not fighting.

• 1:50:13Speaker 01

  Your weaknesses will be revealed.

• 1:50:14Joe Rogan?

  You're gonna get hurt. And I saw so many people get hurt.

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter about what you tweeted. It doesn't matter about your beliefs stepping onto the mat.

• 1:50:22Joe Rogan?

  Your fucking rainbow flag that you have on your T-shirt. Nobody gives a shit.

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  So, on that, I think that's a very common pattern, especially for young people who feel a little bit helpless in their life.

• 1:50:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  I find a vector that makes me feel worthy.

• 1:50:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  You know, the most common story of high performers, I think, is that I needed to do something to get the world to recognize me. One of the problems, I think, as people grow up, is that they internalize this belief that the only way that the world will value me is if I can continue to perform at this high level. And I think that there comes, some people can imbibe a type of insecurity in that, that if I stop doing these things, if I stop being as impressive to the world.

• 1:51:06Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  It's going to deny me its love, that it is, I'm gonna be unwanted, unworthy. And I think that this, talking about the high performer thing, talking about the pity of the CEO. Go, how much are you running towards something that you want? And how much are you running away from something that you fear? That this not enoughness.

• 1:51:26Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right. And the way I looked at it and the way I was taught was that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential. And that through the incredible struggle of training and competing, you will learn more about your ability to excel at anything. You know, this is the Miyamoto Musashi path. And I think that the problem with anything, anything extreme, but also fleeting, and athletic performance is fleeting. If you're, at the very best, you have a couple of decades, at the very best. If you're really lucky, you have a couple of decades to define you as a competitor.

• 1:52:10Joe Rogan?

  But then your body will give out. Your age will win, the beating that your body takes. From all the training and all the competing, eventually, you're not going to be able to perform at that level anymore, and you're going to fall off. And you see it with fighters. It's really hard with professional fighters, where their whole identity is wrapped up in being a champion. Their whole identity is being the king of the hill, and then they're no longer the king of the hill, and sometimes it happens very rapidly. Sometimes it happens over the course of just one or two fights. You go from being the pound-for-pound best in the world to a guy who nobody thinks is going to win the title again, like that. So six months later, you're in a totally different reality. You're in a depressed

• 1:52:52Joe Rogan?

  reality, and then maybe you are physically depressed because maybe you got really hurt in your last fight, so you're probably suffering from some brain damage. So you've got endocrine disruption, your pituitary glands probably fucked, your cortisol levels are through the roof, your hormone levels are all fucked up, you might have a hard time losing weight, you know, you're tired and depressed because your levels are all fucked up in your hormones because you're, you basically, your brain's beat in six months.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  Your capacity to fix the very problem has been taken away from you.

• 1:53:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and you see it sometimes with one fight, you know, with a fighter, you see, like Tony Ferguson is like my favorite example, who was the boogeyman, the lightweight division of the UFC for years, for years. He was the guy who was like this unstoppable force that had bottomless cardio, never stopped coming after you, and was just hell-bent on destruction, and beat the fuck out of everybody, beat the fuck out of everybody for years, until he fought Justin Gaethje. And Justin Gaethje beat him so bad, he was never the same again. He was never the same guy again. He went from being a favorite in the Justin Gaethje fight, I think he was a slight favorite going into that fight, to after the fight was over,

• 1:54:08Joe Rogan?

  he got stopped in the later rounds, and never, never recovered.

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  You think that was a physical thing or a mental thing?

• 1:54:15Joe Rogan?

  Both.

• 1:54:17Joe Rogan?

  More physical than mental. Because I think Tony's mental, his fortitude is unstoppable. He's just got this mindset, but I don't think his body responded the way.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  I saw him on a stair machine with David Goggins. And Goggins is screaming at him to keep going. He gets off, throws up in a bag and gets back on the stair.

• 1:54:34Joe Rogan?

  No, he's an animal. His mind is unstoppable. But at a certain point in time, particularly when you're being tested. Right, so you're doing the USADA protocol at the time. And now it's a drug free sport. So there's no peptides. There's no, there's nothing that can aid you in recovery. There's a, you know, you can't supplement your hormones. You can't recharge your hormone development. You can't, there's just so many things that you can't do because they are in fact performance enhancers that would help you recover. You know, if a guy like Tony Ferguson, after that fight, got on hormone replacement, got on testosterone, got his levels up pretty high, got to a point where he could train as hard, he probably wouldn't have had the slide that he had.

• 1:55:17Joe Rogan?

  I think part of the slide is that everybody has to be natural. And when you're natural and you get beat up a few times, you're not the same person anymore. And you, I've seen it many, many times. One bad beating and the guy's done. It's a big thing in boxing. In boxing, everybody points to Meldrick Taylor is one of the best examples. Fought Julio Cesar Chavez. Chavez broke him down in the fight and then stopped him with like a couple of seconds to go in the last round. Dropped him and the referee called the fight with a couple of seconds to go in the last round. And Meldrick Taylor was never the same again. And he did interviews after the fight and the interviews after the fight, like a couple of years later, pronounced slurring in his words.

• 1:56:02Joe Rogan?

  A very clear deterioration of his reflexes and his speed. Very clear deterioration in his ability to take a punch and even avoid punches. His reflexes were off.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  Have you ever felt any TBI stuff from your heritage of doing striking?

• 1:56:16Joe Rogan?

  No, not really. I'm sure it made me impulsive. I'm sure, I probably got the right amount of brain damage to succeed in life. I think so. Cause it made me not. I'm not very risk averse. I like risks. I I enjoy them. I I get a thrill out of taking chances. I'm not afraid to fail. I don't mind because I know that failure produces some of the best results. Every time I've ever failed at anything, I've always the humiliation and the pain of it has always forced me to work so much harder. Failure in comedy is a gigantic blessing. If you have one good bombing, woo, it sucks like sucking a thousand dicks in front of your mother. But when it's over, you realize that that can happen. You fucking tighten up your battleship.

• 1:56:59Joe Rogan?

  Some of the biggest like growth leaps that I've seen in comics and and even in fighters is a humiliating loss.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a a special category of lesson that I've been thinking about. It's one that you can only learn by sort of having gone through it. And I think that bombing on stage or having a poor performance, I think that that's one of them. So.

• 1:57:19Joe Rogan?

  I think most of them you only learn by going through them. You learn something from watching other people's mistakes, which is why I've never done cocaine. But maybe if I did do cocaine, I would have been sober a long time ago and I would have had a much better understanding of the abyss.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  Cocaine is a performance enhancer. Yeah, it's it's strange, you know, no matter sort of how arduous or costly or effortful it's going to be for us to find out these things for ourselves. For some reason, we insist on disregarding the mountains of warnings that we have from our elders.

• 1:57:52Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 1:57:52Speaker 01

  And historical catastrophes and public scandals. And and film and TV and we think some version of, yeah, that might be true for them. But not for me. It's the like, watch me do this mum mentality. And, uh, yeah, we decide to learn the hard lessons the hard way over and over again. And unfortunately, it always seems to be the big things. You know, it's never about how to charmingly introduce yourself at a cocktail party or put up a level set of shelves. It's never that. It's always, we spend most of our lives learning firsthand the warnings that previous generations gave us over and over again.

• 1:58:29Joe Rogan?

  And then one day you're like, I'm gonna throw all my money in crypto.

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  And then you will know about that. But that's one of them. One of them is money won't make you happy.

• 1:58:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  Fame isn't gonna fix your self-worth. You don't love that pretty girl. She's just hot and difficult to get.

• 1:58:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  Um, you will regret working too much. Worrying isn't aiding your performance.

• 1:58:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  Um, nothing is as important as you think it is when you're thinking about it. Like over and over again, you should see your parents more. All your worries are a waste of time. Like these.

• 1:59:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  It, it, it's perfectly okay to cut toxic people out of your life. Like these are so trite. They're such basic bitch insights. Because everybody has heard them before. But if they're so basic, why does everyone who ends up arriving at them? Talk about them as if they've just had religious revelation? You know what I mean?

• 1:59:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:22Speaker 01

  Like they have this fervor to them.

• 1:59:24Joe Rogan?

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• 2:00:54Joe Rogan?

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• 2:01:21Speaker 01

  About why it is so important for you to listen that we couldn't have seen this coming. How could we have seen this coming? It's like it is in every single fable and story from the rest of time. And I think that the one of the reasons this happens is if you don't have a thing, looking at somebody who has that thing, they have the solution to your problem. If you don't have money, you believe that by having money, you would, all of your problems would be fixed. If you don't have fame, you believe that fame is the thing that's going to get. If you don't have the girl, you think that getting the girl is going to do those things. And it is only by getting that and looking back and going,

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  the issue that I thought would be fixed by getting the thing wasn't fixed. Fuck, I need to look deeper. So not only do we refuse to sort of learn the lessons. If you talk about this on the internet, if you have a rich person on who says, you know what, man? I, I earned a couple of billion dollars and I'm still, I'm still pretty miserable. You, you bring some actress on, she says, you know, all of the fame and stuff like that. It really didn't fix my self worth. The internet hates that.

• 2:02:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:30Speaker 01

  It's a very contentious point to bring up. And I think that we believe our particular mental makeup would allow us to dance through this minefield.

• 2:02:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  Right? No, no, no. My unique inner landscape would be solved by this problem.

• 2:02:47Joe Rogan?

  Especially men.

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  Watch me dance through this minefield, avoid all of the tripwires, do a couple of pirouettes, and I won't kick any of them.

• 2:02:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:55Speaker 01

  And then you kick one. And you realize, oh, fuck, this, this worry of mine was so much more deeply rooted than the thing that's from outside. But I genuinely believe that you kind of need to learn it yourself. I don't think you can. I've got Naval on the show on Sunday.

• 2:03:12Joe Rogan?

  He's great.

• 2:03:12Speaker 01

  He's fucking phenomenal. I think that, by the way, the one that you did with him in 2019 is the best podcast episode of all time.

• 2:03:18Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:03:19Speaker 01

  That two hours. Yeah, it's just one I've gone back. Maybe it's just like personally meaningful to me, but I must have listened to that, I think, more than any other.

• 2:03:25Joe Rogan?

  He's very wise.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  He's a very, very wise person. Although he did tell me that if he could invest more

• 2:03:31Joe Rogan?

  money in Clubhouse, he would have. And I was, I was, we were talking on the phone.

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  Questionable.

• 2:03:36Joe Rogan?

  Dude, I think this is just bad podcasting. I don't think, I don't think there's, but Clubhouse took off during the pandemic because people found themselves at home. And, you know, it's kind of cool to be able to hop on to a call with a bunch of other people and you're basically sharing ideas with people you've never met before and intellectually sparring. And people loved it. But I was like, bro.

• 2:03:58Speaker 01

  When the world reopens.

• 2:04:00Joe Rogan?

  I did it with Tim Dillon. We did an episode once and, and he was like, yeah, it goes out there and then, you know, no one ever has. I go, bullshit. People are recording this right now. I go, it's gonna be online. And he was online immediately, immediately. I go, this is nonsense.

• 2:04:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, uh, the mothership, making people put their phones in the bag, but you can reopen the bag. It's like that.

• 2:04:18Joe Rogan?

  If you could reopen the bag.

• 2:04:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but you can reopen the bag. It's like, oh, I'm allowed to do this and just take it. It's like, everything's not, yeah, I, it's a real interesting one, but he's got this quote where he says, uh, "It's far easier to achieve our material desires than it is to renounce them."

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  "It's much easier for you to drive a beat up Chevy truck if your last car was a Ferrari."

• 2:04:38Joe Rogan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 2:04:39Speaker 01

  Because you've closed that loop. That what if? I wonder, I wonder if it is the money. I wonder if it is the fame. I wonder if it is the.

• 2:04:44Joe Rogan?

  But it depends on the circles you're keeping too. Because if you're keeping circles that are valuing those, those items that show like you've achieved milestones, you know, the, there's a bunch of people that they, you know, you don't have a Maybach? You have a this huh?

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  Keeping up with the Joneses is a hell of a fucking joke.

• 2:05:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, your house is not in the best neighborhood huh?

• 2:05:06Speaker 01

  I was thinking about um why I'm attracted to some of my friends, like why I like to spend time with some over others and uh I sort of realized this this interesting dynamic that I hadn't really heard get talked about much, which is we think that we want to be charismatic. Like we think we want to step into a room, our stories are electric, our energy, the aura, everyone's super impressed by us. I didn't actually notice that that was the sort of people that I was choosing to hang around with. There's this story about Jenny Jerome, who was Winston Churchill's mother, and she gets to dine with William Gladstone and Benjamin Disraeli, the prime minister and the um uh opponent, one night after the

• 2:05:48Speaker 01

  other. And she says, after I left the dinner with Gladstone, I left feeling like he was the smartest person in England. And after I left the dinner with Disraeli, I felt like I was the smartest woman in England.

• 2:05:58Joe Rogan?

  [laughing]

• 2:06:00Speaker 01

  And I think this really helps to explain why we're why we gravitate towards certain people.

• 2:06:07Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:06:08Speaker 01

  Some people feel interesting and around some people, we feel interesting.

• 2:06:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:14Speaker 01

  And that's my favorite sort of person. I think charisma, being charismatic, being energizing, it's the sort of thing lots of people are seduced by. They love the sound of it. But it's kind of like developing real charisma, like Matthew McConaughey, sit opposite this guy and he's fucking oozing charisma. But it's way easier to be interested than it is to be interesting. And it gets you probably eighty percent, ninety percent of the way there, just by caring and asking questions.

• 2:06:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:40Speaker 01

  Thinking huh, I want to know what you think about this.

• 2:06:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:43Speaker 01

  That's cool, Joe. Tell me about, tell me more about that. And why do you think that you're built that way?

• 2:06:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:47Speaker 01

  And it helps. I mean, people just love to talk about themselves. And the other thing is, you know everything that you know. You know barely anything that the other person knows.

• 2:06:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:55Speaker 01

  And I mean, this is why our job is largely the most selfish one that we could do. We've, hey, smart person, come on here and tell me about your entire life's work. Tell the least educated person in the room about what it is that you've spent your time doing.

• 2:07:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And it's also

• 2:07:11Joe Rogan?

  It's very beneficial for the people that are listening, which is another service that it provides. Like, you get to be you. Like, the person listening to your podcast gets to be you as you interview these spectacular people. So they get to like, like, "Oh, yeah, why, why, why'd you do that?" And then you say, "Why did you do that?" And like, "Yeah, good question, good question."

• 2:07:33Speaker 01

  You know what it feels like? It feels like watching a sports game sometimes. I think the best conversations, whether they're around a table or a podcast or whatever, it feels like watching a sports match and the two teams are kind of working together to get the ball in the goal. And you go all excited and you're like, "Oh, he's gonna do this." "Oh, the head kick, wah, that's what I wanted."

• 2:07:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:50Speaker 01

  And, um, yeah, if you're ever listening to something, I'm sure that this maybe happened to people listening to this episode. They go, "Fuck, I hope he asks him about the thi-" "He asked him about the thing."

• 2:07:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:58Speaker 01

  And, yeah, there's this sense that there's a third participant, not just Jamie, in the room. Where's Carl?

• 2:08:06Speaker 01

  I just realized there should be a fourth participant.

• 2:08:09Joe Rogan?

  Carl snores a lot.

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  Okay, he's a sound risk?

• 2:08:13Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes he gets a little loud.

• 2:08:16Joe Rogan?

  And while the podcast is going on, you hear and you like, nudge him.

• 2:08:21Speaker 01

  Roll him over, make him shut up. Yeah, I, um-

• 2:08:24Joe Rogan?

  It depends on who I'm talking to. Like, if I'm talking to like, a theoretical physicist and there's like some very difficult thing to grasp and you hear Carl snoring, it becomes a little bit of an issue.

• 2:08:33Speaker 01

  If it's coming through the headphones?

• 2:08:35Joe Rogan?

  He's loud.

• 2:08:36Speaker 01

  Sleep train, sleep train that dog.

• 2:08:38Joe Rogan?

  No, you can't.

• 2:08:38Speaker 02

  He's gotten older, he can handle it, he's fine.

• 2:08:40Joe Rogan?

  He needs a CPAP.

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  Doggy CPAP? Fuck.

• 2:08:44Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen what their faces look like, the skulls? French Bulldog skulls?

• 2:08:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:08:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's horrible, what they've done to them.

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  Through selective breeding?

• 2:08:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  Just slowly, slowly.

• 2:08:53Joe Rogan?

  Shove their fucking skull, it's all twisted where their sinuses are like nonexistent. Their, their, their whole face is just smushed in.

• 2:09:03Speaker 01

  So we can't really complain about the snoring?

• 2:09:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, we did it to him. They used to be wolves.

• 2:09:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:09Joe Rogan?

  They used to be a wolf.

• 2:09:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, uh, I told you about that man crush that I had last time, that unkillable soldier guy.

• 2:09:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:16Speaker 01

  And it sort of sent me down a rabbit hole. I fell in love with stories of crazy bastards from history. So I found this other dude called Amo Koivonen.

• 2:09:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I've heard of that guy.

• 2:09:24Speaker 01

  The Finnish soldier.

• 2:09:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he is out on patrol with a bunch of Finnish soldiers, small group, and they come upon a Soviet force way bigger than they are. They can't fight them, so they have to flee. As they're fleeing, they're skiing away through the snow, and the force is way bigger. Amo is at the front, he's trailblazing, trying to break free from this group, but he can't go fast enough. If they get caught, they're going to be captured or killed or worse. So he needs to speed up, he doesn't know how. He's carrying the entire patrol's supply of Pervitin. Now, Pervitin was a German miracle drug that was used to keep soldiers awake during the war.

• 2:10:03Joe Rogan?

  Meth.

• 2:10:03Speaker 01

  It's otherwise known, yep, as methamphetamine. And, uh, he decided, I mean, you might think, this wasn't just any normal meth, right? This was pharmaceutical-grade wartime human horsepower, right? It was the most intense. So you might think tolerating the dose could be a good idea. Uh, there's a rumor that apparently it had melted in his pocket, but whatever he did, he took 30 people's worth. He took 30 soldiers' worth of meth. The entire packet, just ate the entire packet.

• 2:10:33Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:10:36Speaker 01

  Unsurprisingly, he manages to break away from the pursuing Soviets, and he leads his group away. So they, they chill out on the far side once they're finally free, and they notice that Amo's behaving a little bit oddly, and he seems to be a danger to himself and to them. So they take his ammo out of his rifle, and they take his knife off him, and they're sort of putting stuff away in the pack. They turn around, and he's gone. Like, fuck, where's Amo gone? He skis for 63 miles on his own, just skis away, doesn't really know what he's doing. He's in this sort of fever dream thing, lays down, goes to sleep, wakes up the next day. No idea where he is. Doesn't know where his group is, doesn't know where the squadron is, doesn't know where he is. Immediately sees a Soviet soldier over the far side, raises his rifle, click. Fuck, they took my ammo.

• 2:11:21Speaker 01

  Hurls the rifle at this Soviet soldier and he explodes in a cloud of white dust. Turns out that it wasn't a Soviet soldier, it was a tree branch with snow on it and that he's actually hallucinating. So he's in a full on fever dream now.

• 2:11:35Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:11:36Speaker 01

  Imagine this Soviet soldier throws the gun at him, he explodes, he's like, fuck, okay, I need to, I need to find my squadron, how am I gonna get back to them? So he decides to just try and navigate around for a couple of hours and he sees him over the far side. Sees a fire and he sees his group over the far side, way far away, so he skis for another two hours. Turns out that it wasn't his squadron, it was more Soviet soldiers. So he just skis straight through the middle of the camp. All of these guys immediately chase after him, but there's no chat, like, he's the fucking LeBron James of meth, right? You're not.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  You're not catching this guy, so he goes straight through, again, second night. Finds a hut, finds a wooden cabin in the middle of the, the snow. Decides to set a fire, but he doesn't set it in the fireplace. Sets it in the middle of the wooden hut. And throughout the night, he sort of shuff, shuffles himself further and further away. For some reason, his back's getting a little bit warm and he keeps on sort of shuffling himself further and further away. He wakes up the next morning on the outside of the hut and it's completely burned down. So he's burned the only, the only bit, the only structure that was gonna give him any safety, he's managed to burn it to the ground. And as he wakes up, again, sort of may have noticed that this is a recurring theme.

• 2:12:50Speaker 01

  A Wolverine attacks him, 65 pound Wolverine, fucking fangs, yellow eyes, attacks him. So Aimo uses his knife, kills this Wolverine, fight to the death, kills it. But then he realizes, I don't have a knife because my soldier took it from me. It was his compass, which was the only thing he could use to navigate himself. He'd smashed his compass to bits and then he looks down and it wasn't a Wolverine, it was a tree log. So he smashed his compass on a tree log, thinking it was a 65 pound Wolverine. He's still just deep, deep in the hole. Continues to ski around, he's trying to find someone, trying to find any way marker that he can now with no way to navigate, he's got no compass, he's got no weapon, I mean the rifle that's got no ammunition in it, and he finds a Soviet forward operating base.

• 2:13:35Speaker 01

  But you'll know this, a lot of the time when armies left these behind, they booby trapped the fuck out of them. They booby trapped everything. So he walks onto the middle of the forward operating base, immediately gets exploded by a landmine, foot gets blown. So he's laid there in the snow, kind of waiting to die, and one day later, he's not dead. So he's like, well, fuck it, I might as well try and get into the forward operating base. Gets up, continues to go forward, opens the door to the forward.

• 2:14:04Joe Rogan?

  He has no foot?

• 2:14:05Speaker 01

  It's damaged, it's severely damaged. Gets toward the front of the operating base, opens the door, there's another booby trap there that explodes him and the door like 20 yards backward. He just lays there in the snow, waiting to die. He lays there for about five or six days, waiting to die. And he's melting snow in a little tin can thing, like melting it so that he can drink a little bit of water. He's got this door on him, he thinks, well, someone's gonna find me, it's gonna be the Soviets, they're gonna kill me, or I'm just gonna die. So he waits. Death doesn't come. Three Finnish soldiers come upon him of all of the different nationalities, of all of the different people, three Finnish soldiers come upon him, and he thinks, finally, through all of this time, after being confused, after getting lost, I'm gonna be saved. They say, it's okay, we can take you back, we can save you and take you back.

• 2:14:49Speaker 01

  And the front guy of the three Finns steps on a landmine, blows himself up. And the other two are like, hey, man, there's kind of a priority list here, and you're at the bottom and he's at the top, so we're gonna take him back, but just hold on for another couple of days, we'll come back and we'll save you. They go away, and he just thinks, they're not gonna find me again, they're gonna forget, they're not gonna be able to come back, someone's gonna kill me before they do, or I'm gonna die or whatever. But they do, they manage to come back, they manage to get him, and they take him back to the medical bay. 14 days was how long he'd been traveling around. He'd moved 250 miles in this time. His resting heart rate was 200 beats per minute. And he weighed ninety-eight pounds.

• 2:15:33Speaker 01

  He'd survived this entire time on meth, water that he'd melted down into a tin cup, a couple of pine nut things that he'd melted to, and a single Siberian jade that he beat to death with his ski pole and just ate raw. And he lived until he was in his seventies, died in like nineteen eighty-nine, and just lived a great life.

• 2:15:55Speaker 01

  Fucking love that story, dude. This meth-fueled Finnish maniac, just like skiing through everything, setting shit on fire, hallucinating, getting blown up twice. Survived it. Meth's a hell of a drug. Maybe you should have done it.

• 2:16:08Joe Rogan?

  Maybe I should try now. It's amazing what was accomplished on amphetamines. I mean, Norman Oller's book Blitz.

• 2:16:16Speaker 01

  I loved those episodes that you did with him.

• 2:16:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, incredible. It's just an incredible story that they, they literally went through Poland in three days, just methed out of their fucking minds. And the most, the most meth was given to the people at the very front, the people that driving the tanks, they were the most cranked up.

• 2:16:34Speaker 01

  Because they'll drive the rest of the group forward.

• 2:16:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and also they have to be the most psychotic because you're, you're going to be the first people to encounter resistance.

• 2:16:42Speaker 01

  Uh, so you need to be the most risk averse?

• 2:16:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:46Speaker 01

  Oh, the least risk averse?

• 2:16:47Joe Rogan?

  Least risk averse, the most maniacal and murderous.

• 2:16:51Speaker 01

  I wonder, you know, it's kind of a debate around how much of Hitler's behavior was because of Hitler and how much was amplified worsened by the drugs that he was on. That Theodore Morel, that crazy kooky doctor that he had, injecting him with bull semen, he's getting fucking cocaine.

• 2:17:08Joe Rogan?

  Everything, yeah. A lot of it had to do with that. It had to. I mean, it had to. It, it's a factor. It's a giant factor. Just how much of it, what would have been like? What would the wars have been like where there no meth? I mean, that's probably the first amphetamine fueled war, right? Was World War One fueled by amphetamines? Did they have amphetamines back then?

• 2:17:32Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know what you do to get people to go over the top to certain death. Like, how do you, I mean, you motivate people by everybody else doing it. I suppose it's sort of crowd behavior in that way.

• 2:17:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, they know that meth was given to the kamikaze soldiers.

• 2:17:46Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:17:47Joe Rogan?

  Which makes sense. I mean, what, it's a great way to, it's just gonna fly that plane right into that boat. You're like, what?

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  Having a great time. Sure.

• 2:17:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Um, no, I'm gonna fly to a fucking island and hide. Uh, during World War I, militaries used cocaine and other drugs for medicinal purposes and to enhance performance. So cocaine. Uh, British Army sold cocaine containing pills under the brand name Forced March.

• 2:18:12Speaker 01

  That is the best branding in the world.

• 2:18:15Joe Rogan?

  Increase endurance, suppress appetite. 1960 British Army Council banned the unauthorized sale of psychoactive drugs. Does, I wonder why they did that? They didn't wanna win?

• 2:18:25Speaker 01

  You don't wanna have fun? What, are you the fucking fun police?

• 2:18:28Joe Rogan?

  Wow, that's pretty crazy.

• 2:18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, is it go pills? Is that what they give to fighter pilots?

• 2:18:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they give them something. Um, British Army's pill number nine, what's that?

• 2:18:41Joe Rogan?

  Pill number nine was just a strong laxative? This is AI, lies. What was in there? Specific medication used by British Army during World War I. Primary ingredient pill number nine was Colomel. Mercurius chloride, mercury based compound. Used to treat intestinal infections and other ailments. Oh, okay. Just massive diarrhea pills.

• 2:19:03Speaker 01

  I don't know how that's a performance enhancer.

• 2:19:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't think it is.

• 2:19:07Speaker 02

  If your stomach, ah, maybe just clear it out, feel light on your feet, I don't know.

• 2:19:11Joe Rogan?

  Seems like the cocaine be more effective to.

• 2:19:13Speaker 01

  I mean, cocaine will make you go to the bathroom as well, so.

• 2:19:16Joe Rogan?

  For accomplish our goals.

• 2:19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, you said, uh, you said before about sort of that self authoring thing, like taking control of my own life. My friend George has got this great question where he says, you're stuck in a third world prison. And you get one phone call to ring somebody to get you out. Who'd you ring? And that idea I love because it helps you to identify who the highest agency person is in your life. Who is it that can think on their feet, that doesn't need permission to go and do anything, that'll overcome obstacles, that is this sort of, yeah, permissionless reality bender.

• 2:19:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:19:53Speaker 01

  Who would you call?

• 2:19:54Joe Rogan?

  I don't know, man. That's a good question.

• 2:19:59Joe Rogan?

  That's a really good question. I'd have to really think about it. Also, I don't know anybody's number.

• 2:20:04Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 2:20:05Joe Rogan?

  That's a problem.

• 2:20:06Speaker 01

  Can I Instagram DM them? Is that all right? Can I log in? Actually, can you give me my phone? Cause I've got two-factor authentication on. This is gonna be really awkward. Is that all right? Can I? I need to do that. Yeah, I mean, I would be tempted to ring Tim Kennedy. I think he would probably be quite high up on my list.

• 2:20:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he would help you a lot.

• 2:20:20Speaker 01

  If I had access to my phone.

• 2:20:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, dirty deeds done dirt cheap.

• 2:20:25Speaker 01

  Correct. Yeah. I mean, it might be a bit gratuitous. I get, I get the sense that he would take more pleasure in getting me out than would be necessary. You know what I mean?

• 2:20:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, probably.

• 2:20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't know, man. That's gotta be the worst place to be in the world. Foreign prison with no way to call somebody.

• 2:20:45Joe Rogan?

  You know, this is the criticism about these illegal aliens that have been shipped off to, what is it? El Salvador? Is it El Salvador that they're, they have the super prisons?

• 2:20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's, we spoke about this last time. That was just as they'd been created, these football stadium-sized monstrosities.

• 2:21:02Joe Rogan?

  They essentially got all the gang members off the streets and locked them up and dropped crime radically. Dropped violence radically. They essentially said, enough of this. We're just going to go after all these gang members and lock them all up. And the criticism about these deportees that we're sending people over there, we're sending plane loads of people over there, like, what if you're in that group and you're not guilty of anything? What if you're just a guy who came over here from Mexico and you're a tattoo artist? US deportes 250 alleged gang members to El Salvador despite court ruling to halt flights. Yeah, there's a court ruling to halt the flights, but here's the thing.

• 2:21:46Joe Rogan?

  If they are gang members, if they are trend du, trend de aragua, or the, you know, those gang members that took over. Yeah. If that, if it's, that's real, then this all makes sense. But the fear is that there's going to be certain people that are rounded up in this that are not guilty.

• 2:22:04Speaker 01

  Collateral damage.

• 2:22:05Joe Rogan?

  Right, and then these poor people are going to be trapped in this El Salvador prison, and no one's going to believe them that they're innocent.

• 2:22:11Speaker 01

  It says it all that El Salvador has got a reputation for being so good at prison and law enforcement that they're fucking importing people over there. And it's like, oh, we need to, you said before, if I've got a bad knee, I want to go to the guy that looks after the Lakers. It's like, you're the Lakers P T doc of the rehabilitation world. It's not even rehabilitation, I suppose, just incarceration world.

• 2:22:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's just incarceration, and there's probably a financial incentive. We probably pay them to house these prisoners. But the question is, are we sure? Like, how many of these people are being accused of being gang members because maybe they tattoo gang members? You know, maybe they were caught up in a raid, and maybe they are...

• 2:22:52Speaker 01

  Friends of gang members.

• 2:22:53Joe Rogan?

  Maybe there's an artist who happens to be an illegal, or maybe there's someone who's working on a construction site, and they get rounded up, and they get shipped over there. That's a legitimate question. When you're arresting people and prosecuting people, and your goal is to arrest people and prosecute people, you do your best at that. And the question is, how many people get arrested and prosecuted that are innocent? Well, in the real world, what we know is quite a few, quite a few. I mean, I do a lot of podcasts with my good friend Josh Dubin, who's spent a considerable amount of his life helping innocent people get out of jail. That's his, you know, his main thing that he does, is work with unjustly prosecuted

• 2:23:37Joe Rogan?

  people, and you find the levels of corruption to be horrific. The prosecutors, DAs, the amount of corrupt judges, it's shocking. It's shocking when you lay the facts of these cases out, like the Ohio Four. These people that were in jail, proven that one of them could not have possibly been there when the crime was committed, and still was in there for 30 years. The actual guy who was the informant came out and said that he was told to say all these things, it's all lies, then was told when they were going to bring it to trial again. You will be arrested for telling lies now. You will either be arrested, you will either be arrested because you're lying now,

• 2:24:23Joe Rogan?

  or you'll be arrested for telling lies previously. So then he won't.

• 2:24:27Speaker 01

  This is like that thing, you know, if she sinks, she's not a witch, and if she floats, she is.

• 2:24:32Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. And then there's the game aspect of it. The game aspect of it is victory, right? If you're a prosecutor, your job is to arrest people and prosecute them and convict them. That's your job. That's what your self-worth, who you are as a prosecutor, your reputation is based on success.

• 2:24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, your record, your perfect record of this many convictions.

• 2:24:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's the same with cops, unfortunately. A lot of cops, their whole thing is making arrests, making arrests.

• 2:25:06Speaker 01

  It's a shame, isn't it? You know, you talked about the fire service earlier on, three emergency services, fire, police, and ambulance. When the fire service turns up anywhere, I don't think that there's any issues. People, I don't know whether, how often firefighters find themselves up against a crowd that's unhappy. Maybe, I guess, if it was a riot of some kind, perhaps. But for the most part, it's a hero that's coming to save the cat stuck in a tree, the house that's on fire, the baby that's upstairs. Like, hooray, well done for you. A medical service turns up. Somebody's really badly hurt, or somebody's broken, some kid. Yeah, some kid at a sports match has broken their leg. Thank you so much. Please, look after them, look after them.

• 2:25:49Speaker 01

  And then the police turn up. And the reaction could not be more different.

• 2:25:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:53Speaker 01

  And, I don't know, I understand that there's a particular type of control that cops have, that sort of firefighters and EMTs, firefighters and EMTs are doing stuff exclusively sort of in service of others, whereas cops are doing something that sort of subtracts away. But it must be tough. Like, if you're a good cop, especially now, especially after the last few years.

• 2:26:18Speaker 01

  It must be hard because you want to feel proud about your job.

• 2:26:20Joe Rogan?

  It's unbelievably hard. It's also very hard to get people that are good people to sign up for it now because they don't want that abuse.

• 2:26:26Speaker 01

  I wonder if that's been reversed over the last few years.

• 2:26:29Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. I mean, I bet it has in certain jurisdictions and certain areas where they've valued cops. And, you know, this whole defund the police thing was just so wild. It was so crazy to see that people would think that that would be a good idea. And even to espouse it publicly, to erode public confidence in law enforcement, just writ large.

• 2:26:52Speaker 01

  You notice that that's largely dropped off now.

• 2:26:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:54Speaker 01

  No one's really talking about defund.

• 2:26:56Joe Rogan?

  It didn't work. It had the opposite effect. Crime escalated and the people that lived in the communities wanted the cops back.

• 2:27:03Speaker 01

  In the areas that were the worst affected as well. It's a luxury belief.

• 2:27:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:08Speaker 01

  It's something that's held by the upper classes that only impacts the lower classes.

• 2:27:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and it's also a thing that the political establishment will use as a tool to align you with them. You know, people will say it, like Kamala Harris in 2019 was saying, I mean, defund the police. We should defund the police, which is just crazy to say. You need to fund them more, train them better. You know, they need training the way military groups need training constantly, consistently. And, you know, they're encountering horrific things. I mean, my friends who have been cops and, you know, and have served overseas will tell you, most of them will tell you that they suffered more PTSD as cops than they have even in the military. Yeah.

• 2:27:53Joe Rogan?

  Depending upon your service, depending what you had to do. But a lot of them, it's just like every day you're seeing some nightmarish situation. Horrific violence, domestic violence, child abuse, murdered kids. You're seeing so much horror. And then your version of reality is based on your experiences. Your experiences are horrific every day.

• 2:28:16Speaker 01

  Do you think you'd be able to switch off if you had a job like that? You'd be able to partition, compartmentalize?

• 2:28:21Joe Rogan?

  I wouldn't even ever guess that I could pull it off. I wouldn't even guess. I don't think anybody even understands what that even means. Unless you've shown up and seen some guy's brains blown out all over the curb for nothing, for some stupid argument about nothing. You know, when you've seen some woman get shot in front of her kid by the husband, you have no idea. No one has any idea.

• 2:28:48Joe Rogan?

  You you don't know unless you experience it and then you have to go home to your own children. Go home to your own wife and you're just, y- your brain is on fire. You know, your your soul is just i- in agony. We were, we were watching a video the other day of this guy who had to shoot this guy, this cop. This guy was, something was wrong, was clearly mentally unstable, was yelling. Was, you know, telling everybody what he was gonna do, they tased him, that didn't work, then he's charging at this cop. And the cop shoots him and then the cop's sobbing and shaking and his partner's telling him to breathe, how to breathe and he's just probably the first person he ever had to kill.

• 2:29:29Joe Rogan?

  It's horrible, it's horrible and that's, that's, he succeeded, he's, he stopped a f- a threat. And he, you know, it was justified, this person was trying to kill him. What about pulling people over and the windows are all tinted? And they won't roll down the windows, you're standing there vulnerable, it could be a shotgun inches away from your face and you have no idea. And they've all seen all these videos where people get gunned down. You pull people over, also in the back window explodes with machine gun fire. I mean, they, they live with that every day. They live with that fear every day and then they have to hear this rhetoric everywhere of defund the police and calling cops pigs and it's crazy.

• 2:30:12Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy and it, it, it ultimately destroys the fabric of our society. And, you know, there's plenty of evidence that cops have done bad things, it's not excusing the bad cops. There's bad plumbers, there's bad car mechanics, there's bad everything. And there's people that shouldn't be cops. And when you see a video of someone who shouldn't be cop, shouldn't be a cop and is, you know, on their last nerve and snaps at someone or overreacts at someone or, or br- brutalizes someone totally unnecessarily. It gives you a very distorted perception of the average encounter that a person has with police officers. Because most of the interactions that people have with police officers are fine, most of them, the vast majority.

• 2:30:56Joe Rogan?

  No one gets hurt, no one goes to jail, most of them. You know, but you see the ones that go sideways and then you think this is what cops are doing. They're out there trying to kill people.

• 2:31:06Speaker 01

  Wait, that's one of the disadvantages, I suppose, of the way the algorithms work, that edge cases that are unbelievable and shocking are the ones that catch the most fire.

• 2:31:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:31:16Speaker 01

  And what it creates is it moves the fringe to the middle.

• 2:31:19Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:31:19Speaker 01

  Because most of what you see by design

• 2:31:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:31:22Speaker 01

  is the stuff that's the most outlandish.

• 2:31:24Joe Rogan?

  And then it gets used as a political tool.

• 2:31:26Speaker 01

  Correct. And you mentioned about Biden and Kamala. What, what do you think you do if you're either of them now? Like Trump's just running ragged, flying high, having all of this fun. Like, what are they doing? Like, what do you do when you've lost a, two people have lost a campaign in the space of six months?

• 2:31:44Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. Tim, Tim Walz is out there talking again.

• 2:31:47Speaker 01

  You say he could fight any Trump supporter?

• 2:31:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he says he'd kick their ass and they're, they're scared of him because he could fix a truck. Like it was, they're threatened by his masculinity. I know how to fix a truck. So he said, like, do you? I bet you don't.

• 2:32:01Speaker 01

  The lady doth protest too much, I fear.

• 2:32:03Joe Rogan?

  I bet if I bring a broken truck to you and a bag of tools, you're fucked.

• 2:32:08Speaker 01

  That was the, that was kind of the redress, right? That was the attempt. It was like, we're gonna, the, the symbol of masculinity on the left is going to be Tim Walz. It was Aragon, Aragon from Lord of the Rings and Tim Walz.

• 2:32:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's so crazy. I just, I think they're lost. I mean, they're also lost in that they can't control the narrative anymore. I think when they had control of Twitter and they had control of all, essentially all of social media and pre-Trump, they had the reins like firmly held. They were in control of the public narrative. If you strayed from that, you will be kicked off social media. You'll be banned from YouTube. You were, and, and for things that were factually correct. Like the lab leak theory is now finally being embraced by the New York Times. The New York Times, I don't know if you saw that article the other day.

• 2:32:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:32:55Joe Rogan?

  They said, we, we were misled. Like, bro, you misled us.

• 2:32:59Speaker 01

  We were misled

• 2:33:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:00Speaker 01

  by ourselves.

• 2:33:01Joe Rogan?

  They, there was a

• 2:33:02Speaker 01

  We misled us.

• 2:33:03Joe Rogan?

  op ed in the New York Times that has people up in arms because they're like, fucking duh. You're finally, do you, do you know where it is? I could send it to you.

• 2:33:11Joe Rogan?

  I saved it because it's so ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. I was like, what are you saying? How are you saying that? It was you guys. It wasn't just some random people that did that.

• 2:33:26Joe Rogan?

  Do you find it anywhere, Jamie? I know I saved it.

• 2:33:30Speaker 02

  Which was it called?

• 2:33:31Joe Rogan?

  Uh, it was the New York Times saying that we were misled. It was a big op-ed in the New York Times.

• 2:33:39Speaker 02

  I saw people spreading, I never saw the link.

• 2:33:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I read it. I read it for like the first couple of chapters, but it's all duh. The whole thing is just fucking duh. God, where did I save it? I save too many things. I'm a hoarder.

• 2:33:56Speaker 01

  Digital hoarder.

• 2:33:56Joe Rogan?

  I'm a digital hoarder.

• 2:33:57Speaker 01

  Do you know why that happens? Do you know why people hoard stuff? The interesting way that their brains work, so.

• 2:34:02Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:34:03Speaker 01

  Um, looking around this table, you're able to discern between stuff that is useful and stuff that isn't useful.

• 2:34:08Joe Rogan?

  There it is. "We were badly misled about the event that changed our lives." Who are you badly misled by? Do you think you guys had a factor in that?

• 2:34:21Joe Rogan?

  "Since scientists began playing around with dangerous pathogens in laboratories, the world has experienced four or five pandemics, depending on how you count. One of them, the 1977 Russian flu, almost certainly sparked by a research mishap. Some Western scientists quickly suspected the odd virus had resided in a lab freezer for a couple of decades, but they kept mostly quiet for fear of ruffling feathers. Yet in 2020, when people started speculating that a lab accident might have been the spark that started the COVID-19 pandemic, they were treated like kooks and cranks in this newspaper." Many public health officials and prominent, by the way, not by this person, I'm not blaming this person.

• 2:35:02Joe Rogan?

  "Many public health officials and prominent scientists dismissed the idea as conspiracy theory. I wonder why they did that? I wonder if there's an email paper trail that's already been established." There is. "Insisting that a virus had emerged from animals in a seafood market in Wuhan, China. And when a nonprofit called Eco Health Alliance lost a great grant..."

• 2:35:23Joe Rogan?

  Because well, lost a grant because it was planning to conduct risky research into bat viruses with the Wuhan Institute of Virology, research that if conducted with lax safety standards could have resulted in a dangerous pathogen leaking out into the world, no fewer than 77 Nobel laureates and 31 scientific societies lined up to defend the organization. Yeah, they defend themselves. I mean, it's a appeal to authority and they fucked us. And you guys were a part of it, by the way. That newspaper was a big part of it. Big part of calling the lab leak theory racist, which was really kooky.

• 2:35:56Speaker 01

  It's strange that everything is concretized on the internet for the rest of time.

• 2:35:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:00Speaker 01

  You, I mean, people can go back and try and like retrograde, remove stuff that happened, but there's always internet archive is fantastic for this.

• 2:36:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for the most part, you could find it if you're inspired.

• 2:36:11Speaker 01

  So how, how is it that so many U-turns, regardless of what it is, regardless of which side it is, the sort of permanent state of amnesia that everybody's in, there was this uh, this WhatsApp message, you ever have one of those WhatsApp messages where it says forwarded many times?

• 2:36:29Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:36:30Speaker 01

  At the top and you're like, oh, this is gonna be good.

• 2:36:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:36:32Speaker 01

  And yeah, it's just, it's just an advert, it's just a banner, forwarded many times. And it was a single squaddie, a guy in fatigues, walking down the street in London and a screenshot, I think of a text saying that someone had said that the army was going to be deployed on the streets of London to keep everybody in the house through martial law, that this was how intense that the lockdowns were going to get. And it was gonna happen on this particular day. It goes crazy on Facebook, crazy on WhatsApp. Never happened. And like, all of the people that shared that, that were adamant, that created all of these stories and theories around it, like, no one ever actually went to go and call those people out about what it was that they'd pushed. All of the people that were adamant, global health passports, the vaccine passport, that's gonna come, that's gonna happen, all.

• 2:37:19Speaker 01

  I mean, the unfalsifiable version of it is because we knew that it was gonna happen, they weren't able to do it. So actually, we were the righteous resistance in doing the thing. And the same with whether it's lab leak theory, whether it's Joe Biden's mental decline, no matter what it is, you can put this position out there, it's fucking fortified on the internet for the rest of time. And after a long enough, you're like, I don't remember that. You know, you're like fucking the most gaslighty partner that you've ever been with. I'm not, are you sure? I don't think I didn't say that. I did. I do this like fucking fugazi like switcheroo, some lexical Brazilian jujitsu.

• 2:37:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:54Speaker 01

  And I don't have to, I don't have to atone for my previous sins anymore.

• 2:37:57Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think in this case, you have an individual journalist who wrote this story. I do not know the history of this individual journalist, but what they said is accurate and important. So it's good that the New York Times has this come to Jesus moment where they lay out, hey, the conspiracy theories were all true. That's what the title should be. The conspiracy theories were all true. Yeah, the shot wasn't effective. Yeah, there were therapeutics that were available that were dismissed and that bad studies were created in order to make sure that people weren't taking these drugs because we needed the emergency use authorization. And the only way you can get that is if you have

• 2:38:39Joe Rogan?

  no treatment. So you had to rely on one thing, and that one thing was the vaccine. And they all participated in it.

• 2:38:45Speaker 01

  How much do you think New York Times with articles like that, Bezos coming out recently and saying that there's this sort of balance thing that he's got going on at the Washington Post, Zuckerberg's recent sort of pivot with regards to fact checking on meta platforms. How many of those do you think would have happened if there hadn't been a Trump victory in November? How much of this is blowing with the wind, do you think?

• 2:39:06Joe Rogan?

  Most of it's blowing with the wind. It's the society, society's decided we're done. You know, this was Trump getting elected. This was Elon buying Twitter. This was, you know, and this is the blowback that you're seeing, these organized protests and vandalism on Tesla dealerships and. Keying, they're encouraging people. People are, there's like, there's so many videos of people just smashing Teslas, carving swastikas into the side of Teslas. Cause sentry mode, these cars all have sentry mode. So you could leave your Tesla parked and there's HD video of everything that's happening all around.

• 2:39:40Speaker 01

  And it uploads it, so you can just see who did what?

• 2:39:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, you can watch it. That's why all these videos are out. All these videos are out, as people extracted them from their cars.

• 2:39:47Speaker 01

  The video isn't published by the rioters, the video is published by the victims.

• 2:39:52Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:39:53Speaker 01

  Fuck.

• 2:39:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and there's tons of people that have been arrested for this now. Tons of people.

• 2:39:58Speaker 01

  I don't know what, I mean, I guess it's a way of trying to protest against some person that you don't like.

• 2:40:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it's funded. That's what's crazy. And it's all because what Elon is doing with USAID and what he's doing with Doge. The Department of Government Efficiency is finding a lot of inefficiency, waste and fraud. Most of it, he believes is waste, some of it is fraud. And it's a lot of, there's a lot of money that's going in directions it shouldn't be going. And then there's stuff that's legal that probably shouldn't be legal, like non-government organizations doing the bidding of the government because they're funded by the government. There's certain things the government is not allowed to do, but a non-government organization NGO can do.

• 2:40:41Speaker 01

  What's an example of that?

• 2:40:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, regime change. Like, a lot of what this money is going to, it goes to foreign countries where we have an interest in having the people that are running that country on our side. Or, we don't like them and we want to fund the rebels. And so, you can fund the people, you can fund them through all sorts of organizations where you hide and mask the money and you move it around and you have essentially blank checks. And you can just funnel billions of dollars all over the world with no accounting.

• 2:41:16Speaker 01

  Mike Benz is like the most prophetic person of all time, isn't he?

• 2:41:19Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god. I mean, he talked about it on this podcast before Doge and before USAID. And everybody's like, oh, conspiracy theorists and this and that. This guy, so he used to work for the State Department, what the fuck does he know? Apparently he knows everything. He knows all of it and he can spit it out. His recall is incredible. And, you know, that guy's gotta be fucking terrified because he's out there exposing. He's, he's essentially the guy who led Elon to the coffin where the vampire sleeps. Like, this is where it is.

• 2:41:50Speaker 01

  It must be an odd situation to be in because most of the time, the level of scrutiny that you're under and the level of security threat that's likely is kind of, it goes in line with status, fame, and that also goes in line with maybe some resources too.

• 2:42:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:42:07Speaker 01

  So as people get more likely to be a target, they're also more able to perhaps be able to protect themselves with living in a nicer house, gated community.

• 2:42:17Joe Rogan?

  Like Elon.

• 2:42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, having security and stuff like that. But this is one of those weird situations where your knowledge, your particular insight, makes you so uniquely vulnerable or such a heavy target, but it hasn't come with the concordant increase in status and resources that would allow you to be able to actually protect yourself.

• 2:42:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:42:38Speaker 01

  And this is, I guess, the crisis of a whistleblower.

• 2:42:41Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes, whistleblower and investigative journalists. Yeah, I mean, this is why Julian Assange spent so much time in jail.

• 2:42:48Speaker 01

  I was just about to bring up Ross Ulbricht.

• 2:42:50Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:42:51Speaker 01

  Have you, you guys must have tried to reach out to him.

• 2:42:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we reached out, but he doesn't really want to talk to anybody right now, which is totally understandable. He's got an open invitation. If he ever just says, okay, I'd like to talk, whenever. Yeah, I'd love to sit down and talk to him. You know, I'd love to find the real story because the narrative and, you know, the documentary, the docudrama that was made about the Silk Road and what he did, you know, I'd like to know how much of that is bullshit because I think a lot of it probably was. You know, I think they were trying to set him up for sure, and I think there's probably some things that he was accused of that aren't accurate, you know? I'd like to know.

• 2:43:34Speaker 01

  Isn't it funny that we always think about conspiracy, conspiracy theories, all of this stuff is always being in the past? And that when something is unfolding right now, I wonder how much stuff is being ignored by the media but will be studied by historians?

• 2:43:49Joe Rogan?

  I wonder, wonder what that, what would be.

• 2:43:51Speaker 01

  That's one of my friends' favorite questions to ask. What is being ignored by the media but will be studied by historians? I certainly think that smartphone use will be one of those. You know, there was that five deathbed regrets of the dying. I wish I'd kept in touch with my friends. I wish I hadn't worked so much. I wish I'd allowed myself to be happy. I wish I'd lived the life I wanted and not the life that other people had for me, blah, blah. I would bet everything that I'm worth, that within the next couple of decades, I wish I'd spent less time on my phone.

• 2:44:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:20Speaker 01

  Would be one of those.

• 2:44:21Joe Rogan?

  No doubt.

• 2:44:22Speaker 01

  One hundred percent.

• 2:44:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, your, your time is so valuable. And how do you have five extra hours a day? Well, look at your screen time. It'll save five hours.

• 2:44:31Speaker 01

  We were talking about this before we got started, that you have the same number of hours that somebody did a hundred years ago.

• 2:44:37Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:44:38Speaker 01

  But the average amount of time that Americans spend on screens is eight hours at the moment. The average time that they-

• 2:44:42Joe Rogan?

  Is it eight?

• 2:44:42Speaker 01

  Eight.

• 2:44:43Joe Rogan?

  Eight.

• 2:44:43Speaker 01

  On screens, all screens. The average time they spend asleep is six point five. So people are sleeping for one and a half hours less than they spend their time on their phone. And-

• 2:44:54Joe Rogan?

  And what are you getting out of it?

• 2:44:55Speaker 01

  Well-

• 2:44:55Joe Rogan?

  Nothing tangible.

• 2:44:56Speaker 01

  It's so hard. It's so hard. It's so addicting. It's designed to be addicting. I mean, you've had Tristan Harris on here, you know? The way, the variable schedule reward that tempts you, that keeps you there, you don't know what's gonna happen. This is so interesting.

• 2:45:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:10Speaker 01

  I had a, the guy who wrote, Stuart Russell, he wrote the original AI textbook. It's translated into seventy languages around the world. He taught me this really interesting thing about how the algorithms work. So we know the job of the algorithm is to predict what you want to click on.

• 2:45:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:45:26Speaker 01

  So what it wants to do is get better at working out what Joe likes on his YouTube feed or on his Instagram feed or whatever. But there's actually two ways that it can become more accurate at being able to predict what you're going to click on. The first one is to be better at providing you with things that you'll select. The second one is nudging your preferences so that you are more easy to predict.

• 2:45:46Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:45:47Speaker 01

  Because if you just give something the optimizing function of cause Joe to click on a thing and stick about like click through and watch time, if you get it to do that, it'll just find any route. It's not bounded by, and you must make sure that it's his existing preferences. You can't change his preferences. But this is one of the reasons, I think, why polarization has increased. Not just that edge cases get used, it pushes people further apart, they get put off into their silos, echo chambers, recursive stuff, blah, blah, blah. I think a big part of it is just the algorithms find it easier to be able to predict you, which gives them an incentive. Now, it's, it's not like a conscious incentive.

• 2:46:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:46:26Speaker 01

  But it gives you this incentive to be pushed out to the sides. And there's this worry about, I learned about this idea called knowingness. So polarization, everyone thinks it's a big deal, and I think it is, it's a big problem. But knowingness is like a- An uncurious intellectual insulation. So people believe that they know the answer to the question before the question has even been asked. I know what the outcome is. I know what the answer is before you've even asked me the question. And what's interesting about this epidemic of knowingness we have at the moment is if the problem is poor information, you can fix it typically with better information. I will give you a better quality of information, but if the problem is knowingness, you are

• 2:47:10Speaker 01

  insulated from ever updating your beliefs because no amount of existing new information is going to actually help you. There's this really cool quote that said, "Most people think that they are thinking when all they are doing is rearranging their prejudices."

• 2:47:23Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 2:47:24Speaker 01

  And I think that explains why the culture war is so boring. Culture war is largely super boring because both sides act as if the facts are already settled whilst not agreeing on the facts.

• 2:47:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:47:36Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 2:47:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. So how is it that we've got to the stage where people's, their prejudices just get moved around until they can come up with the outcome that they already wanted before you even ask the question about the thing that you're talking about?

• 2:47:50Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:47:51Speaker 01

  That's the situation we end up with, and I think it explains why, I think it explains why the, the culture wars feel so samey and nothing really ever seems to move. Like it's not moved forward. It goes at such a snail's pace. The news is operating at light speed and the way that we move forward with our conceptual understanding of the world is moving forward at a snail's pace. Well, how are these two things happening together?

• 2:48:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's technological advance, right? Technological advance is so much greater and faster than biological advance. This is the scariest thing that leads us down the road to AI is that as we are so limited in our biological ability to evolve, biological evolution takes so long, cultural evolution takes so long, whereas technological evolution is almost instantaneous. And we are being overrun by this thing that's captivated our attentions. I was talking about this the other day. I was like, imagine if there was a drug that made you stare at your hand for six hours a day. You'd be like, keep me the fuck away from that drug. But that's what your phone's doing.

• 2:48:58Joe Rogan?

  Mostly you're getting nothing. Occasionally you get a funny meme. You know, if I looked at the amount of time that I spend online. On a given day and how much of it is really fascinating to me. Well, every now and then you get a story like that story about the whole universe might be inside of a black hole. And then I'm on a.

• 2:49:15Speaker 01

  The pyramids, oh, there's this interesting insight about that.

• 2:49:17Joe Rogan?

  There's a few things you'll get, but I kind of feel like you will get those if you're offline. Just by other people being online, they'll send it to you like you you you almost better off.

• 2:49:27Speaker 01

  You don't need to be the one doing the first pass scouring.

• 2:49:30Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. Your your your your resources are better utilized by not doing that.

• 2:49:35Speaker 01

  Did you see that it was a guy who removed people's phones from their hands? The photographer who went around, I think it was maybe New York City. And he took photos of people and then CGI the phones out. You know, you're talking about, imagine if there was this thing and it made you stare at your hand. He actually did it, so it shows just how absurd it is. You know, you've got an entire train carriage on the subway on the underground.

• 2:49:58Joe Rogan?

  And everyone's staring at their.

• 2:49:59Speaker 01

  And it's just people staring down at their hands like this. And it it it needs that to sort of throw the absurdity into it. But then on the flip side, if you don't live with your parents, you're in a different city. You work a job that you're not that enamored by. Maybe your health's good, maybe it's not so good. You're a little bit worried about stuff, you're kind of bored a lot of the time. You need to be sedated.

• 2:50:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:18Speaker 01

  Oh, there we go.

• 2:50:19Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow. All those people just sitting there staring. Oh, that's so crazy.

• 2:50:24Speaker 01

  Jamie, go back up to that one of the kid.

• 2:50:27Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:50:29Speaker 02

  It wasn't that long. This was 2015. In 2012, I started trying to take pictures of people in public looking at their phones. And it wasn't that common then. So it wasn't that.

• 2:50:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's like when social media kicked off. In the beginning, no one was on it.

• 2:50:42Speaker 02

  You'd see it.

• 2:50:43Joe Rogan?

  It's like most people weren't even on Twitter. They're like, why would I be on that? And, you know, people were using it to promote things. And then they started using it to elevate their profile. And then people became influencers. And once people became influencers and once people like a regular person get a couple of million followers. Then all of a sudden you get sponsors and that's your job now.

• 2:51:01Speaker 01

  Notoriety, respect.

• 2:51:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and fame. I remember when I was living in LA, it was right around the time that a lot of these. God, what was it back then? What was the thing that was like?

• 2:51:18Joe Rogan?

  It wasn't TikTok.

• 2:51:19Speaker 01

  Vine.

• 2:51:20Joe Rogan?

  Vine, yes.

• 2:51:21Speaker 01

  Vine was, yeah.

• 2:51:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was Vine. Vine influencers were the first, and they were famous. So they'd go to restaurants, they'd be like, that's blah blah blah. Like, who's that? Like, oh, he's got thirty five million Vine subscribers. Like, what? It was bizarre, because you're seeing just regular people that would do antics, or cause scenes, or do something to get attention.

• 2:51:41Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:51:42Joe Rogan?

  And they developed large followings.

• 2:51:44Speaker 01

  Wasn't, isn't it the number one job that primary school kids want is to be YouTuber and influencer?

• 2:51:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, they all watched them. They all watched people eat food and open up toys, and it's like, very weird. It's very weird stuff, because no one would have ever predicted that that would be something that would captivate people's attention on a television. Right? There was no unboxing shows on television, but yet unboxing shows on the internet are huge. Like, people get sucked into the most mundane things. Someone opening a package. Oh, look at this. Here's the new phone.

• 2:52:14Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah, unboxing, in some ways, I actually think is quite satisfying. I quite like watching the people that have got, he's the new MacBook M four thing, and it's shot all nice. MKBHD.

• 2:52:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:24Speaker 01

  You know, like, watching, watching him do his stuff is, is really great, but...

• 2:52:27Joe Rogan?

  But he also does a comprehensive analysis of the tech.

• 2:52:30Speaker 01

  It's not just, here's me playing with a new MacBook.

• 2:52:32Joe Rogan?

  No, it's an, it's an, he's doing a review of state of the art. You know, like, where, where is technology currently, and what's, what's the best version?

• 2:52:42Speaker 01

  I think, uh, when it comes to desiring a life, looking at, okay, what is it that I want? You need to be very, very careful about what the process is in order to get the outcome that you want, because if you want the outcome, but you're not prepared to live the life needed to get it, you're just asking for disappointment.

• 2:52:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well said.

• 2:53:00Speaker 01

  My friend talks about Call of Duty versus War, and he talks, you know, you think about, this is what, um, going on holiday to a place is, and this is what having to live there is like. You can go to somewhere and go, it was lovely for a week. We were in the Congo. Yeah, it was so nice. But you go, what's it like if you can't leave? It's literally the difference between being camping, going camping or being homeless. Right. One is an imposition and the other one is a choice. And I think that more young kids need to realize what the reality of being an influencer is like. It's not just going to the Seychelles and uploading a selfie or getting, I don't know what they do, like Play-Doh, fucking jelly, new video games. That's not what it's like. Look at the Twitch streamers.

• 2:53:43Speaker 01

  Look at most of the Twitch streamers. They have got, they are like the fucking grunts of the content creation. They are factories of content, eight hours a day, five days a week, just straight, just fucking stream of consciousness. Someone puts something in the chat and you go, oh, well, let's watch this thing. Let's watch that thing. It's like, it is, it's not. If you do not want the life that you need to get in order to get the outcome that you're looking for, you need to be very, very careful about, because the reality is war. It's not Call of Duty. It's the same thing with being in a band. It's like, I love the idea of traveling the world and playing to these big crowds and doing all the rest of it. It's like, okay, you're gonna have to live in a van with four other sweaty dudes for like half a decade first. If you're lucky.

• 2:54:28Speaker 01

  At the best, and that's if you've managed to break through. Yeah. You're gonna have to spend so long, a decade, learning to play guitar. You're gonna have to write songs that never see the day of light. You're gonna have to do all of this stuff. And you have no idea if it's gonna work. There's this, um, I think about the gap from where people are in a place that they don't want to be until they get to a place that they do. And I think of it like a lonely chapter. So everybody that has got from a place where they don't want to be to one where they are, there's a point where they, they're so different that they can't resonate with their old set of friends. Right. But they're not yet sufficiently developed that they've created their new set of friends. Hmm.

• 2:55:11Speaker 01

  And there's this temptation to go back to the old patterns, the old ways of thinking. And this, I did this live show in London last year, my first big headline show at the Eventim Apollo in London. It was pretty cool. And this idea, I think, was one that really resonated with a lot of people because.

• 2:55:30Speaker 01

  Everybody's trying to grow and there is an incentive for you to stay in the same place because not that many people grow. Most people don't change. Right. They make little changes. You know, they'll cut their hair or they'll lose five pounds or, you know, they'll switch from one company to another. But how many people do you know that have lost fifty pounds or moved to a different country or have genuinely changed the way that they see the world? It's pretty rare. It's not that common and we are such mimetic creatures. We're so shaped by the people around us that we can't help but be tempted. You know, you're gonna have to do something. If you want to go from where you are to where you want to be, you're gonna have to do something that makes you more different, more weird, more easy to be mocked, especially if you come from a country like the UK where I'm from.

• 2:56:15Speaker 01

  Being different's not particularly celebrated in that way. It's the sort of thing that's quite easily mocked. There's a big culture of piss-taking. And if you start, "What are you talking to people on the internet for? It's fucking weird. Like, that's stupid. That's not gonna work. Why are you gonna do that?" So if you don't have that level of enthusiasm, there is no support around you to tell you that the thing that you're trying to do, the taking up the martial art, "Why are you training this Taekwondo bullshit like, you know, fucking six nights a week? Why are you coaching all of these mums and all of these like old guys on how to do Tai Chi or whatever? Why are you doing that?" Well, because maybe I'm sort of pulled to it and there is this temptation to go back to your old ways of thinking. Go back to the road that you already know how it's going to end.

• 2:56:58Speaker 01

  And I get the sense that this is not a bug, it is a feature. It's a part of moving from a place that you do not want to be to one that you do. And for the most part, you actually need to live through this lonely chapter. And you look at it and you go, "Well, the fucking Rocky montage was 3.5 minutes. For me, it's been five years. Where's the championship ring? You know what I mean? I haven't won the fight. Where's Apollo Creed? None of this stuff's happened." The thing that I wish more stories talked about, if you watch it in the movies, yeah, sure, there's ups and downs in the journey of the athlete that's going to change his life around and get the goal, but his self-belief never wavers, right?

• 2:57:41Speaker 01

  He makes the decision and it's one straight shot typically. And there'll be some challenges, but he'll get there. His self-belief never wavers. I don't think that that's what the experience of doing personal growth is like at all. In my experience, it's... You're just swimming in uncertainty and and fear and a lack of belief that it's even gonna happen. You don't even have the promise of glory on the other side of it. I don't even know if this is going to be worth it. And I'm fucking doing Sam Harris's waking up meditation app and I'm journaling on a morning. I'm going to the gym. Why am I eating meat and fruit? Does this even work? Like, you know, you're doing all of this stuff, trying, scrabbling like a guy in a fucking well, trying to find a handhold.

• 2:58:22Joe Rogan?

  And if you don't have a good community of people that are also doing that, you're on your own.

• 2:58:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:58:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:27Speaker 01

  And this is most people, I think, most people's experience, because if most people don't change, you are going to be an outlier if you're somebody who does change. I think about um, personal growth, kind of like a rocket ship taking off. And as you take off, you've got a particular velocity that you're moving at. And what you want is to find other people moving at the same velocity as you. But the quicker that you move, the fewer people are going to be like you. Right? So some people will be ahead of you and you're in this lonely chapter and then you catch up to them. And then, oh, no. And this isn't, you know, some comment on people that work on themselves are like morally better or worse than anybody else.

• 2:59:07Speaker 01

  But it's just a stark sort of fact about you, you talk to people and you resonate with people that are at the same level of life as you are. And that kind of makes sense. You have things to discuss. You're encountering the same sorts of challenges, whether it's in terms of your self-worth or your wealth or your relationship status, all of these things. Birds of a feather, right? And, you know, one of the, I guess, difficult realizations of people who want to change their life is that if you do it well, you might have to go through a period where you let go of all of your friends. But the really bad realization is if you do it really well, you might have to do that multiple times throughout your life. You find a group of people, finally, I've landed after all that period where I was, I was on my own and I didn't really understand.

• 2:59:52Speaker 01

  Oh, fuck. I'm still going. I've opened and I now need, you mean I gotta do it again? I've got to do it again. I just thought that I'd found my group and I've got to do it again. This lonely chapter thing is a, it's a big deal. And I think that it explains why so few people make big changes. Because the temptation is always going to be to just go back to what's normal, go back to what I know. And it's why, you know, America, for all that it's a horrible cis hetero patriarchal superstructure that's misogynistically keeping everybody down. It's an enthusiastic and sort of excitable country. And you guys have kind of got permanent first line cocaine energy about everything.

• 3:00:36Speaker 01

  And for me, it seems to be a real enthusing environment. It encourages me to do things, helps me to take risks. Either that or I get kicked in the head a lot. And I just love it. I love the fact that it makes me feel confident in doing difficult things. And yeah, I wish that more people had that community around them. I think largely Reddit is just a website filled with people who couldn't find other people to talk about their niche in their hometown. Like this particular

• 3:01:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh, there's a lot of that.

• 3:01:09Speaker 01

  Warhammer 40K version or whatever. But yeah, it's, it's difficult. And when you get to the stage where you're faced with some personal growth decision, you're always going to have to make this value exchange of, do I want to move forward on my own or do I want to go back with my friends?

• 3:01:25Joe Rogan?

  It's a good point, man. Chris, always great to talk to you, brother. Really appreciate your insight. You're a very brilliant guy and you're always, you're fun, fun to talk to.

• 3:01:35Speaker 01

  I appreciate you too, man.

• 3:01:36Joe Rogan?

  Thanks for having the courage to put all your thoughts out there. And I love what you do. I love your show and you're awesome, man.

• 3:01:44Speaker 01

  You're awesome too, dude.

• 3:01:45Joe Rogan?

  Thanks for being here.

• 3:01:46Speaker 01

  Every time that you bring me on, every time that we get to speak, I really appreciate it. So, thank you.

• 3:01:50Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure. All right. Bye, everybody.