454 - Together We're Fine

This week, Karen and Georgia cover the murder of Sarah Everard and the 1978 Lufthansa Heist.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone loves the idea of spending an afternoon curled up with a good book.

• 0:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, grow up, because it's almost impossible.

• 0:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Luckily, you can take your next great story with you on Audible.

• 0:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Audible has a massive selection of titles to choose from, including This American Life, new books by Michael Connelly, along with classics from Magathah Christie, and so much more.

• 0:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Whether you want a mystery, a true crime story, or something completely different, there's always something new to listen to.

• 0:29Karen Kilgariff?

  New members can start listening with a 30-day free trial at audible.com/mfm.

• 0:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Audible, stories that speak to you. Goodbye.

• 0:38Karen Kilgariff?

  This holiday season, celebrate the ones you know by heart with a gift that says it all.

• 0:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Because the best gifts don't just look beautiful, they mean something, too.

• 0:46Karen Kilgariff?

  From engraveable pieces that tell your story, to festive charms that capture special memories, to stunning, lab-grown diamonds, Pandora has meaningful jewelry for the people who inspire you and have been there through it all.

• 0:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Give a piece that says exactly what words can't.

• 1:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Pandora, more than a gift.

• 1:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Shop new styles in-store or online at pandora.net.

• 1:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello. And welcome.

• 1:25Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 1:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That is Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That is still Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Still, even though there's been a fascist takeover in this country.

• 1:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Guys, remember when we recorded on a Monday and we were like, "Don't let us down, everyone, and like, tell us in the future if we had nothing to be worried about"?

• 1:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember? Anyway.

• 1:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Here we are.

• 1:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Here we are in this fucking position again.

• 1:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Excuse my language.

• 1:50Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's perfectly appropriate. I kind of don't, I kind of don't know what to do. Like, I kind of am like, oh, you can just like, go on with the show, normal, like?

• 2:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, we do in the way that this is what we know how much it helped the first fucking time we did this.

• 2:07Georgia Hardstark?

  For who? For us, or for the listeners?

• 2:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's about them.

• 2:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 2:11Karen Kilgariff?

  We're here in the service industry.

• 2:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we are.

• 2:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Trying to give, trying to make a difference.

• 2:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like I didn't do enough.

• 2:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Last time?

• 2:20Georgia Hardstark?

  No, this time.

• 2:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah, that's, I think that's, uh,

• 2:23Georgia Hardstark?

  How everyone feels.

• 2:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the given, right?

• 2:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but I don't think we could have changed that much anyway.

• 2:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It's hard to say.

• 2:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:31Karen Kilgariff?

  But yes, I totally know that feeling.

• 2:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean.

• 2:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It comes with the like helplessness and the frustration. And look, we got a little bit of time, but then everybody needs to fucking take the gloves off and get ready, because that's what it's about.

• 2:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It's 1938 and you guys, we need to get, get it together now.

• 2:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's 1938.

• 2:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sorry to say it, but there's a lot of people saying some great shit on TikTok that is really helping me.

• 2:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It's great.

• 2:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's just basically like, let's start planning, read these books.

• 3:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Do these things. I think that people, the point that I find that people are making over and over is we've done this already, so we kind of know what's coming.

• 3:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Doom and gloom, you get to do it for a little while, block out some time, doom and gloom it up, and then start making plans.

• 3:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Then start reaching out and making community.

• 3:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Activate.

• 3:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Our newsletter this week is actually really good. I don't think I've ever bragged about the newsletter.

• 3:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It's amazing. Alison Agostino, thank you for being our incredible, she's our incredible copywriter.

• 3:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 3:32Georgia Hardstark?

  And she put it together in a way that's very, like, how do you put a newsletter out for a podcast this fucking week?

• 3:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, girl.

• 3:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, everyone.

• 3:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, it's a promotion.

• 3:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Check out the merch store.

• 3:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And instead, it's like, hey, guys, here's some links that you might want to go to.

• 3:48Georgia Hardstark?

  So.

• 3:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Very impressive. When I read it, I kind of cried a little. I was like, thank you.

• 3:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. Because that's, that's what we gotta do.

• 3:55Georgia Hardstark?

  We'll do it. You and I will, will, um, what's the word?

• 3:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Donate $10,000 to the ACLU?

• 4:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely, yes.

• 4:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great.

• 4:03Georgia Hardstark?

  What's the word, though, when we all?

• 4:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Unite.

• 4:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but the, the five, something.

• 4:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, oh, uh, I know what you're talking about. Starts with a G.

• 4:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Galvanize our.

• 4:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Galvanize. We're gonna do it.

• 4:15Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a talking podcast. It's a talking podcast and we're not good at it.

• 4:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, together, we're fine. Together, we're one person.

• 4:23Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. That's what.

• 4:25Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 4:25Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what it works.

• 4:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I have half of the word and you have the other half. Like, what the fuck is the problem?

• 4:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I, those fucking Nick Terry MFM animateds come up on my TikTok feed now.

• 4:37Georgia Hardstark?

  They do.

• 4:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And I'm like, am I one of those people that has drank my own bath water? Because these are delightful.

• 4:43Georgia Hardstark?

  They are.

• 4:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're very fun.

• 4:44Georgia Hardstark?

  They are.

• 4:45Karen Kilgariff?

  They're really good. I, Nick Terry will never be able to thank you enough for joining this family and making the funniest thing.

• 4:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, MFM animated, if you're not watching and following, my dad's watching and following. He's always telling me about how much he loves them.

• 4:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, Marty!

• 5:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I think you voted wrong, but I'm not gonna ask you.

• 5:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 5:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I still need to love you.

• 5:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, it's tough. I mean, there is, there are people that are like, they're going through parent breakups. They're going through family breaks, breakups, like dire.

• 5:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I have to see my mom tomorrow. I'm really nervous about it, but.

• 5:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, here's the thing you're good at, fighting with Janet.

• 5:23Georgia Hardstark?

  So good at it.

• 5:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not like you're gonna lose that improv. You've done it. You know the words to that song. I called my dad, because I wasn't sure. I was just like, I'm gonna call my dad just to check in on him, but then I was like, I kinda can't deal with it if my, if my dad's bummed. Because, you know, it's Jim.

• 5:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And, uh, of course, he was Jim, and I said, Dad, what the hell? What are we, what are we gonna do? And he goes, I don't, what the hell? I don't know. We're gonna sally forth. We're gonna sally forth. That's Jim's plan.

• 5:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I have not heard that term.

• 5:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:58Georgia Hardstark?

  In decades.

• 5:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Sally forth.

• 6:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I did send Nora a text where I was just kinda like, hey, look, I know this is scary, but your great grandmother came here to this country when she was 17 with her two sisters. She didn't know anybody.

• 6:13Georgia Hardstark?

  To escape.

• 6:14Karen Kilgariff?

  To escape the black and tans.

• 6:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And they built a family, and that's what you're made of, and that's what we're made of, and that's how we do it.

• 6:21Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. That's the stock you're made of.

• 6:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Here we go.

• 6:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Good for you.

• 6:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the stock that all of the fucking immigrants in America are made of. So instead of trying to get rid of them, how about we all look to them? Because they have been through some real fucking shit.

• 6:38Georgia Hardstark?

  More shit than the non-fucking immigrants in a lot of. Fucking cases like what the fuck? Why are we? We're all human fucking beings. Like, that's the class and the race that you should be thinking about, not this really fucking narrow, specific, weird, incestuous fucking.

• 6:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Or divide, it's dividing.

• 6:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It's there, the intention is to divide us all. The intention is to divide.

• 7:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Sally Forth, it's a great roller derby name.

• 7:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my god.

• 7:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Does it exist?

• 7:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It must.

• 7:08Georgia Hardstark?

  It has to.

• 7:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It must.

• 7:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Does she listen? Can you Sally Forth, if you're a roller derby queen and fucking.

• 7:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Shout us out.

• 7:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Marfa, Texas, or whatever, will you let us know?

• 7:16Karen Kilgariff?

  There used to be a comic strip called Sally Forth.

• 7:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 7:21Karen Kilgariff?

  But it was kind of like, it was one of those ones that wasn't necessarily funny or not funny. I would always read it and go, what are we doing here? Is it a drama? But maybe I need to re- relook at that and see.

• 7:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, speaking of fucking Sally Forthing, so on Wednesday, the sixth, this past week, our episode of MFM Rewind came out, our new weekly show where we comment on and play original old episodes.

• 7:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a recap show.

• 7:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Recap, thank you.

• 7:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And this one, you covered Mary Vincent in it.

• 7:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 7:51Georgia Hardstark?

  The day after the election.

• 7:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oof.

• 7:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And so that was like, oh, no, but it actually, we got a lot of comments about that being powerful. And I have one from Instagram I want to read.

• 8:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Read it.

• 8:03Georgia Hardstark?

  From Katie Mayfield. It says, I get chills every time I hear Mary Vincent's story, and I can't help but think how serendipitous it is to re-listen to Karen telling this story today as I process the election results and think of an administration which wants to hack away at our freedoms and our democracy. The despair I feel today cannot compare to what Mary Vincent must have felt at the bottom of that ravine, and yet she packed those wounds and climbed out.

• 8:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell, yes.

• 8:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's built a beautiful life. Mary, you are triumphant. Thank you for showing us what's possible.

• 8:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible. Some, someone just wrote that as a comment?

• 8:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Who, say the name again?

• 8:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Her name's Katie, K A T I, Mayfield.

• 8:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible work, Katie. Thank you.

• 8:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh oh, now we're crying on the video.

• 8:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Shut.

• 8:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Look, listen.

• 8:54Karen Kilgariff?

  These are some times. We gotta, you know, focus on what we can focus on one next step after next step and focus on Mary Vincent.

• 9:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, um. What are you gonna do? Talk about the networks?

• 9:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but we have a network.

• 9:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Highlight some other podcasts?

• 9:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, if you need some like comic relief or some true crime relief, we have those options. I don't know. Go for it.

• 9:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That's true. Over on Do You Need A Ride?

• 9:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is my other podcast. Do you know that I love podcasting?

• 9:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 9:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really one of my favorite things. And actually, this episode, Chris and I drive around with comedian, writer, and organizer Jenny Yang. She literally runs errands, but is a truly delightful episode. I didn't know her before we did that episode. I'd heard of her, but I'd never met her, and it was really fun.

• 9:40Georgia Hardstark?

  That's awesome. And then on Ghosted by Roz Hernandez, a wonderful show, Roz is joined by Sasha Colby, an iconic performer and winner of season 15 of RuPaul's Drag Race.

• 9:52Karen Kilgariff?

  We have to give credit to the fact that we do live in a timeline where RuPaul's Drag Race and the stars from that show dominate entertainment.

• 10:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I fucking live for it. It is the best.

• 10:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Karen Kilgariff?

  We live in a drag queen world, and I fucking am very grateful for that.

• 10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 10:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Danielle and Millie have another epic double feature. Listen to this double feature on I Saw What You Did.

• 10:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 10:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Parasite from 2019 and Triangle of Sadness from 2022.

• 10:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That movie.

• 10:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 10:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Vincent and I were just sitting on the couch going, what the fuck?

• 10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  For real.

• 10:33Georgia Hardstark?

  What the fuck? The whole time.

• 10:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It is so incredible. And that ending, like when that ending happened, I was like, you've done it. You've, you've, you've done the perfect ending. This is unbelievable.

• 10:45Georgia Hardstark?

  What's this face's cameo in that as the ship captain was?

• 10:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Was it Woody Harrelson?

• 10:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Chef's kiss.

• 10:51Karen Kilgariff?

  So good. And then over on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul discuss the 1914 murder of Otto Kohler by one of his two mistresses. Also, we just, you know, we'll take the time as the world is crumbling to sell you t-shirts. We have no shame. But it's only because the holidays are coming.

• 11:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And we have our first ever jewelry collaboration. So a listener and fine jewelry designer named Nina Pallaccio.

• 11:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Seval.

• 11:19Karen Kilgariff?

  At Seval Collective in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, created a beautiful Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murder necklace for us. They're very limited. Please head to myfavoritemurder.com today if you want to see if you want to buy one.

• 11:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I love when we do collabs with listeners. That's, there's nothing better than that.

• 11:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I really, I just went to Milwaukee, Wisconsin for vacation to see.

• 11:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, right.

• 11:42Karen Kilgariff?

  To visit our Great Lakes office.

• 11:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And see Bradford Blaski in the legal department. And I wonder if I went to Seval and looked around and just didn't know that we had collaborated with them.

• 11:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 11:52Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna look them up online.

• 11:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:56Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 11:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 12:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 12:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 12:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 12:52Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 12:59Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 13:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Nothing makes you take a good, hard look at your furniture like inviting people over for the holidays.

• 13:08Georgia Hardstark?

  So give your home a little holiday upgrade with our

• 13:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long-lasting home at an unbeatable price.

• 13:16Georgia Hardstark?

  They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time. There's no filler. Every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design, and lasting value.

• 13:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.

• 13:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week. I know we're getting into fall and winter, but we live in Los Angeles, so my outdoor furniture is just like the perfect focal point for the pool parties we still end up having. Sorry, everyone, when it's like sunny and gorgeous year round. I sit on my Article patio furniture every morning and have my coffee and watch Cookie Lay in the sun, and the whole thing is just so peaceful and pretty. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 14:03Karen Kilgariff?

  To claim, visit article.com/murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

• 14:08Georgia Hardstark?

  That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 14:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Cozy season is nearly upon us.

• 14:17Georgia Hardstark?

  That means crisp weather and soft layers.

• 14:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Prepare accordingly with fall staples from Bombas.

• 14:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Bombas has your favorite footwear for fall, including new suede moccasins with cushy soles, shearling lining, and water-resistant suede, plus soft slippers, slides, and booties.

• 14:32Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a Bombas sock for pretty much any fall occasion, from warm merino wool blends to sweat-wicking sport socks and dressier options for weddings.

• 14:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity, with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room, so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy, you can wear them around the house, I wear them to bed, and they just make everything feel a little cozier.

• 15:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to bombas.com/mfm and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

• 15:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash MFM, code MFM at checkout.

• 15:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 15:22Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, you want, you go first?

• 15:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I want to tell you a story.

• 15:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, tell me a story.

• 15:26Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not gonna like this. So, you might remember this. Today's story begins on March 3rd, 2021, in the Clapham area of South London around 9 o'clock at night.

• 15:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, fuck.

• 15:39Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what I'm about to say?

• 15:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, fuck.

• 15:41Karen Kilgariff?

  33-year-old Sarah Everard is walking home after spending a couple hours at her friend's house. She's headed back to her apartment in a nearby neighborhood called Brixton. It's like a 50-minute walk from Clapham. It's kind of a long walk, but it's still relatively early at night. But it's also that confusing part of the pandemic where the restrictions seem to be evolving by the day. People are actively kind of trying to figure out how to navigate public spaces. So Sarah's wearing her mask. She's taken a route that she's familiar with. It's well-lit, it's populated, it doesn't require close interactions with other people. So, of course, like, all women seem to have to all the time.

• 16:23Karen Kilgariff?

  She has chosen the safest option available to her to just move around in public. Not long after setting out, Sarah calls her boyfriend Josh. They chat for about 15 minutes, and they say goodnight. And then Sarah disappears. This is the story of a tragic, senseless crime that ignites a nationwide firestorm of anger over the lack of women's safety in public spaces and the failure of the systems that are supposed to protect it. This is the murder of Sarah Everard. So, sources used in today's research are articles and reports from various British news outlets, including BBC, Sky News, and The Guardian, and the rest of the sources are listed in our show notes.

• 17:08Karen Kilgariff?

  So, like many of us, Sarah Everard struggled through 2020. The pandemic sent her employer into a tailspin, so she wound up getting laid off. And at the same time, she and her then-boyfriend broke up. But by 2021, things are leveling out. She's gotten a new job in marketing. She has a new boyfriend named Josh. They're very happy together. They're actually planning to travel to Ibiza with some friends in a few months.

• 17:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Her life is filled with people who adore her. Her close friend Rose says, quote, "She has always been an exceptional friend, dropping everything to be there to support her friends whenever they need her." Her cousin Tom adds, quote, "Sarah's absolutely amazing. She's lovely and she's fantastic. So sensible, so well-loved by her family, by her friends, by everyone." And her sister Katie describes her as, quote, "The very best person with so many people who love and cherish her." Sarah's colleagues are surprised when on March 4th, she does not show up for work and she does not call, which is, of course, entirely out of character for her. But what's even stranger than that is that no one can reach her.

• 18:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Her loved ones immediately sense something is very wrong. So that day, Josh reports her missing to the police. Sarah's parents travel down from her hometown of York to London to figure out what's happening. And meanwhile, her friends and family start distributing flyers and sharing posts on social media, just immediately doing everything they can to spread the word that their friend has disappeared. So the police immediately launch an investigation and they begin to piece together Sarah's route from the night before, using footage from CCTV, from security cameras, public buses, and doorbell cameras. So before long, they have around 1,800 hours of footage to comb through.

• 19:05Karen Kilgariff?

  So they're also going door to door to ask residents if they remember seeing anyone fitting Sarah's description. And before long, police have pieced together this timeline. Sarah left her friend's house around 9:00 PM. 13 minutes later, at 9:13, she calls her boyfriend Josh. They speak until around 9:27. And while she's on the phone, Sarah is captured by two different CCTV cameras as she walks. At 9:34 PM, less than 10 minutes after she gets off the phone, Sarah is spotted again, this time by a camera on a city bus as it passes by. And now she's not alone. It's hard to make out the details, so Sarah and another person kind of just look

• 19:47Karen Kilgariff?

  like blobs in this grainy footage, but the other person looks larger and taller than her. And in this footage, Sarah and the stranger seem to be facing one another. They're standing by a white car that's pulled over with its hazards on, and the stranger is holding something up as if they're presenting it to her. A few minutes later, at 9:38 PM, another bus passes by. The camera on this one captures that same white car, but now Sarah and the person are no longer standing there. Instead, the car's two front doors are open. About a minute later, the white car is seen driving away. So as investigators piece Sarah's evening together, they also put out a call to any launderers who might have seen her interacting with this stranger.

• 20:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And two witnesses, who are a couple, come forward, claiming to have seen Sarah being handcuffed on the street.

• 20:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Aye.

• 20:39Karen Kilgariff?

  They figured she was being arrested by an undercover cop. So this is a solid lead, but because it's a missing persons case, time is of the essence, of course, so people have to figure out who that second person is, and fast. Fortunately, the buses that captured footage of Sarah are also outfitted with technology that automatically reads the license plates of passing vehicles.

• 21:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 21:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So it doesn't take long for police to suss out where the white car came from. It's a rental car from Dover, England, which is like about 80 miles southeast of London. When police follow up with the rental car agency, they learn that this white car was rented on the night of March 3rd, and that the customer who rented it rented it under his real name.

• 21:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 21:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Which made it very easy for police to find him, and he is now the prime suspect in Sarah Everard's disappearance. This person's name is Wayne Cousins, and he's a police officer. Wayne Cousins is 48 years old, and he lives with his wife and children in a town called Deal, which is 80 miles from the center of London, in the county of Kent. And that's just north of Dover where that car was rented. Cousins has spent the last several years working in law enforcement. He's bounced from department to department while undergoing the requisite background checks to varying results.

• 22:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Back in the 2000s, for example, Cousins starts out as essentially a volunteer officer called a special constable with the Kent Police. Then in 2008, he applies for a formal position with the same department, but the routine background check comes back with an odd red flag. Cousins has a lot of personal debt. So this is considered a risk factor because of bribery and corruption.

• 22:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 22:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So he doesn't get the job, but he is still allowed to continue his volunteer post. Two years later, in 2010, he applies for a full-time role with the Civil Nuclear Consabulary, or the CNC, which is a specialized police force tasked with protecting nuclear sites across England.

• 22:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 22:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So he's vetted once again by an entirely different team, and his debt issues are flagged for a second time, yet he's still hired for this position. Of course, having debt is not uncommon, and it's not particularly nefarious, but there will be many more very big red flags. For example, while employed with the CNC, Cousins reportedly has a habit of making the women around him so uncomfortable that his colleagues give him the nickname "The Rapist."

• 23:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry. That's... if you're called that once, that's not a nickname. You get to be called multiple times and keep your fucking job.

• 23:22Karen Kilgariff?

  No. Well, it feels like a behind-his-back nickname, but then it is that kind of thing of like, when do you get bad vibes to the point where you have to talk about it to somebody?

• 23:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. I mean, that's extreme.

• 23:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. In 2015, Cousins is reported to the police after he's seen driving around Dover naked from the waist down in his own car.

• 23:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Heck.

• 23:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Investigators have Cousins' plate information and a photograph, which are captured by a passing bus in that incident. He's investigated for indecent exposure, but the person doing that investigating is a police sergeant who is friends with Cousins' brother. So no charges were ever filed.

• 24:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 24:01Karen Kilgariff?

  The tiniest amount of due diligence could have ended Cousins' policing career, but instead, in 2017, he applies for a position with the Metropolitan Police, the Met, as they call it, serving the Greater London Metropolitan area. And Cousins manages to pass yet another round of vetting and gets that job. But now that he's been identified in this footage with Sarah Everard, Cousins is finally starting to sweat. At first, when investigators questioned him about Sarah's disappearance, he remained silent. And then he suddenly just completely changes course. He claims that he's in serious trouble with an Eastern European gang.

• 24:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And he racked up debts after visiting a gang-affiliated sex worker, but he doesn't have the money to pay them back. So he claims that these gangsters ordered him to kidnap a woman so that they could eventually sex-traffic her.

• 24:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 24:58Karen Kilgariff?

  He claims that if he failed to do so, this gang would come after his family, and that's the reason that he kidnapped Sarah. The story only gets more convoluted and confusing from there. He admits following this gang's instructions and ultimately handing Sarah over to them. But he tells police he doesn't have any identifying or contact information that could be used to track these men down. Unsurprisingly, the police do not buy this story in any way. And so when Cousins realizes he isn't fooling anyone, he stops trying and he simply repeats no comment to every question that they ask him. Meanwhile, investigators are digging deeper into Cousins' life, and what they find is damning.

• 25:40Karen Kilgariff?

  They search his house and his car, and they find plastic handcuffs, a handcuff key, plastic gloves, Velcro straps. Blood and semen stains are found in the backseat of his car. And when that blood is tested, it's a match for Sarah's DNA, and the semen matches Cousins.

• 25:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 25:58Karen Kilgariff?

  So investigators learned that in 2019, Cousins purchased a small piece of land in a secluded part of Kent called Hoads Wood, around 50 miles from London. Cousins' cellphone pings in the area the night Sarah goes missing, and so officers start combing those woods. Then on March 10th, a full week after Sarah is last seen in London, her remains are found in Hoads Wood. Her body's been badly burned and placed in bags and put into a nearby pond. Her phone is also eventually found by police in a river roughly 30 miles away. So investigators try to theorize what happened on the night of March 3rd,

• 26:42Karen Kilgariff?

  when she went missing. And this is what they, the kind of timeframe and the story they come up with, which is that earlier in the day Cousins rents a car in Dover, 10 miles from his home and deal. He drives his car to London. He sees Sarah walking alone. It's believed that he then stops Sarah pretending to be an undercover cop. He seems to have put a lot of thought into this kind of scheme. He actually specifically rented a car that looks like an undercover cop car.

• 27:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 27:13Karen Kilgariff?

  In the footage, Sarah appears deferential, her head's down, as if she's being confronted by an authority figure. Cousins is also seen presenting something to Sarah. People are assuming it's his badge.

• 27:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he's a cop.

• 27:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 27:29Karen Kilgariff?

  As far as what Cousins might have been telling Sarah, the most prominent theory is that he was citing COVID rules to her, possibly name checking actual ordinances or maybe making them up. But he likely convinced her that she'd done something wrong and he was now placing her under arrest.

• 27:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's so terrifying.

• 27:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. In any case, Sarah gets into Cousins' rental car and almost certainly assumes she's going to be taken to a nearby police station. But instead, she's driven 50 miles out of town. Cousins ditches his rental car and then forces Sarah into his own vehicle that he has left in a specific spot earlier that day. So he's planned this to the point where he's changing cars.

• 28:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:12Karen Kilgariff?

  He then drives her to the property in Hoads Wood, rapes and strangles her to death. Hours later, at 8:15 a.m., Cousins stops at a coffee shop and then returns to the rental car at 8:30. He then drives out of town to throw Sarah's phone into the river. Around 2 p.m., he's captured on CCTV footage buying two huge bags, the kind that they use to carry debris on construction sites, and they're the same ones that her remains will be found in later. So to give himself time to dispose of Sarah's body, Cousins calls out of work. He cites exhaustion and emotional stress, and then he calls his wife and lies telling her that he is at work.

• 28:53Georgia Hardstark?

  He's got a wife and kids.

• 28:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so disturbing.

• 28:57Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so disturbing, yeah.

• 28:59Karen Kilgariff?

  So around 11 a.m. the next day, March 5th, he's spotted buying gasoline, and that afternoon, residents near Hoadswood report seeing a large orange and yellow flame.

• 29:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 29:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So then on March 7th, just days after he murders Sarah, Cousins inexplicably brings his wife and children to Hoadswood.

• 29:19Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 29:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:21Georgia Hardstark?

  That's psychotic.

• 29:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, it is kind of like right in the definition.

• 29:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:27Karen Kilgariff?

  So two days later, on March 9th, Cousins, who's probably sensing the walls closing in on him, wipes his phone of all data. He is arrested hours later. So this is an enormous amount of evidence against Cousins, both physical and circumstantial. It's so overwhelming that in June of 2021, he actually pleads guilty to Sarah's kidnapping and rape, and then a few weeks later, he admits to murdering her. Because Cousins pleads guilty to these charges, he is never brought to trial, meaning that Sarah's family doesn't have to experience the media blitz and the traumatic testimony that often accompanies these horrible cases. But Sarah's loved ones will have a chance to confront him during

• 30:10Karen Kilgariff?

  his sentencing hearing. And that takes place in September of 2021. As Sarah's loved ones share victim impact statements, they repeatedly ask Cousins to look them in the eye, but like a true coward, he can't.

• 30:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 30:24Karen Kilgariff?

  These statements are heartbreaking, and they drive home the senselessness and the brutality of Sarah's murder, along with the pain felt by all of them, all of her family and loved ones who miss her so dearly. Her father, Jeremy, says, quote, "Mr. Cousins, please, will you look at me?"

• 30:42Karen Kilgariff?

  The impact of what you have done will never end. The horrendous murder of my daughter, Sarah, is in my mind all the time and will be for the rest of my life. She was saving to buy a house and looking forward to marriage and children. We were looking forward to having grandchildren. We loved being a part of Sarah's world and we expected her to have a full and happy life. The closest we can get to her now is to visit her grave every day.

• 31:05Georgia Hardstark?

  My god.

• 31:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Cousins is ultimately handed a whole life sentence, which is very rare. It's reserved for the UK's most violent offenders and it means that he'll spend the rest of his life in prison with no chance of parole. So, of course, this sentencing does nothing to ease the pain of Sarah's loved ones or to restore the faith the British public would have had in their systems, especially British women. People are completely outraged that a man like Wayne Cousins was able to rise to a position of power and then abuse it in such a horrific way. And there were so many instances where Cousins should have lost his job. Talked about some of them already, but there are more.

• 31:49Karen Kilgariff?

  In fact, just days before Sarah's murder, Cousins exposed himself to two different women that were working at the drive-thru at McDonald's in Kent. These were two separate instances.

• 31:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 32:00Karen Kilgariff?

  So this is a sexual predator.

• 32:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Who can no longer control himself.

• 32:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Just driving around town.

• 32:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And doesn't have to worry about it because he's not going to get reprimanded in any way.

• 32:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Seems like he never has been.

• 32:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:15Karen Kilgariff?

  His license plate was clearly captured by the restaurant CCTV footage and was passed along to the Metropolitan Police. Again, his employer at the time, they did not investigate further. After Sarah's death, the Met promises to do better.

• 32:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, tell me someone got fucking in trouble for not following through.

• 32:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Their initial response, hold on, their initial response makes things worse. One of the largest demonstrations held after Sarah's death takes place at Clapham Common, a park near where she was last seen, thousands of people gather for a peaceful vigil to honor Sarah's memory and duly raise awareness about violence against women. But the police citing COVID restrictions forcefully break up the event. Images of women being restrained and arrested are circulated throughout the media, adding to the fury and frustration of what the people are already feeling. So, an enormous social media movement begins online with British women sharing their own stories of being violated in public spaces.

• 33:20Karen Kilgariff?

  The same month that Sarah's killed, a report is released by UN Women, which is the arm of the UN that deals with gender equality and women's empowerment, and it finds that more than 70% of British women have been sexually harassed in public. Sarah Everard's case is horrific, heartbreaking, and perhaps the most notorious murder of a British woman in a public space that's happened in recent years. But this case is not the only one. There's another one from 2020 involving the murders of 27-year-old Nicole Smallman and her 46-year-old sister, Biba Henry, who were killed by a man they did not know in a London park in a random attack.

• 34:02Karen Kilgariff?

  That crime in and of itself is terrible, but it reached a horrifying level of notoriety after the two responding police officers took selfies with the women's bodies, circulated them in a WhatsApp group, and described them as, quote, "dead birds."

• 34:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 34:23Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no bottom.

• 34:25Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 34:26Karen Kilgariff?

  There's also the case of 28-year-old Sabina Nessa. In September of 2021, Sabina, who was a beloved schoolteacher, was murdered by a stranger, a male stranger, in a sexually motivated attack. She was on her way to meet up with a friend, and she was passing through a London park. And both of these cases happened to women of color, which is why most people say these deaths did not receive as much media attention as Sarah's.

• 34:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 34:59Karen Kilgariff?

  But they're all shocking, senseless murders that are being perpetrated or handled so callously by the police that it really shows how much danger women are in on a regular basis. It's a difficult truth, but it really shows how much women need to come together, need to join together, need to transgress and confront the racial issues and the class issues and actually come together to fight this violence.

• 35:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, what do you do when like your very own life is not taken seriously by the people who are paid via taxes to protect it?

• 35:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Paid in this city, billions of dollars.

• 35:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Like, what do you even fucking, where do you even start? You just have to rely on each other to try to be loud.

• 35:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Yes.

• 35:56Georgia Hardstark?

  To be as loud as possible.

• 35:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Yeah. We'll end this with Sarah's Mother Susan's impact statement. I yearn for her. I remember all the lovely things about her. She was caring. She was funny. She was clever. But she was good at practical things, too. She was a beautiful dancer. She was a wonderful daughter. She was always there to listen, to advise, or simply to share with the minutia of the day. And she was also a strongly principled young woman who knew right from wrong and who lived by those values. She was a good person. She had a purpose to her life. What I do know is that Sarah will never be forgotten and is remembered with boundless love.

• 36:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the story of the tragic murder of Sarah Everard.

• 36:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. That's a big one to tackle. Good job.

• 36:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. Maren McClashon is our researcher. Alejandro Keck is our producer, who also helped pick that story. And what's crazy is, because the day after the election, I called Maren. It was like 8:00 in the morning. I was like, Hey, what do you think if we just read out like Project 2025? And we just go over all the plans of what's about to happen and what's about to happen to women? And Maren's like, yeah, it sounds cool. And just like, just starts getting into it immediately. And then I get to work and Alejandra's like, hey, yeah, so you actually have a really good story? I think you should do the story you have. And I'm like, okay, okay, sounds good. Because I was like, I'm just making shit up.

• 37:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 37:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It feels like something big needs to be done.

• 37:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that is, and that is it.

• 37:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that's just it is, that's what this podcast is.

• 37:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 37:42Karen Kilgariff?

  We don't sometimes realize that.

• 37:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And, you know, we've definitely done it wrong.

• 37:48Karen Kilgariff?

  We started out rough. We started out basically doing this podcast the way we were taught to ingest this kind of media by the media. But we got taught by our listeners, we got taught by victims and people on the outside of like, actually, here's how you should be doing this. And it actually matters to tell these stories.

• 38:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 38:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And like, women need to hear these stories.

• 38:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Young women need to hear these stories.

• 38:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:18Karen Kilgariff?

  It's important.

• 38:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It is.

• 38:21Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 38:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 38:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 38:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone. And SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 39:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind, that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 39:17Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you. And it really helps the show.

• 39:24Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye.

• 39:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Cozy season is nearly upon us.

• 39:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That means crisp weather and soft layers.

• 39:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Prepare accordingly with fall staples from Bombas.

• 39:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Bombas has your favorite footwear for fall, including new suede moccasins with cushy soles, shearling lining, and water-resistant suede, plus soft slippers, slides, and booties.

• 39:46Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a Bombas sock for pretty much any fall occasion, from warm merino wool blends to sweat-wicking sports socks and dressier options for weddings.

• 39:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity, with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room, so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy, you can wear them around the house, I wear them to bed, and they just make everything feel a little cozier.

• 40:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to Bombas.com/MFM and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

• 40:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That's B-O-N-B-A-S dot com slash MFM, code MFM at checkout.

• 40:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 40:38Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.

• 40:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 40:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 40:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 40:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 41:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 41:11Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 41:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 41:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 41:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 41:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services, must be 18 years or older.

• 41:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 41:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes, and it's covered by insurance.

• 41:40Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E, health.com/murder.

• 41:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 41:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, this story just couldn't be further from your story. Okay. Which is okay. That's how we do this now. True. Are we gonna get the bends? It's so extremely different. Yes. You know why? Why? Because we're hanging out with the mafia now. Okay. Like, classic mafia, classic, you know, all of it. Can you sing the opening theme song to The Sopranos while you start? The love, bo. Oh, no, that's a different one. This story is like what the movie Goodfellas was based off of. Oh, yes, Henry Hill? Yes. Nice. So I'm gonna tell you the story of the Lufthansa heist.

• 42:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And I've seen Goodfellas, but I forgot that that's what this is about. I did too. Yeah. So the movie Goodfellas is based off the book by Nicholas Pileggi. But what I know better and know and love so much more and like has a special place in my heart is a different movie that was lightly based off of this story. And that story was written by Pileggi's wife, whose name was Nora Ephron. Oh. And she wrote the fucking 1990 classic My Blue Heaven, which was literally one of my favorite fucking movies growing up. I still quote it sometimes, like, if you know, you know.

• 43:13Georgia Hardstark?

  So this is the story of one of the largest cash robberies in American history and possibly the best-known mafia crime, the story of the Lufthansa heist. Beautiful. So let's just go in a totally different direction. The main sources used for this story are a book called The Lufthansa Heist, written by mafia informant Henry Hill and Daniel Stone, and an article from when the heist happened from Time Magazine. And the rest of the sources can be found in our show notes. But definitely go watch My Blue Heaven, or Goodfellas, whatever.

• 43:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Whatever you like.

• 43:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Both are classics. All right, so here we are. It's three in the morning on Monday, December 11th, 1978. A great year. And a stolen black Ford van is driving the perimeter of JFK Airport in Queens, New York. It pulls to the side, not by the passenger area where you'd like pick up and drop off passengers, but by a cluster of cargo terminals. Three men hop out and use bolt cutters to cut the chain and open a gate in the chain link fence, separating the road from the terminals. So already, here we go.

• 44:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:20Georgia Hardstark?

  They get back in the car and drive toward a ramp that leads to the loading dock at the cargo terminal for the German airline Lufthansa. There, a Lufthansa employee named Kerry Whalen, who is driving a truck around the terminal, spots them. And as Kerry gets close to the passenger side door, one of the men gets out of that van and pistol whips him. And then those men drag Kerry into the van. They lions out on the floor and then proceed up the ramp. Once they are at the top of the ramp, the men put on masks and they are met with three other masked thieves, who have somehow already gained entry into the building. It's not clear how. So these six thieves have met up at the exact moment

• 45:02Georgia Hardstark?

  when all of the employees in the cargo terminal are taking their coffee break. So it sounds timed, doesn't it? Like they had insider info, doesn't it?

• 45:11Karen Kilgariff?

  They knew when to do it.

• 45:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. They round up all these poor fucking employees who are just trying to have a coffee break and get through their fucking

• 45:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Airport job.

• 45:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Night shift. It's three in the morning. They're just trying to get through their day. Night, whatever.

• 45:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like that thing when you have to like, when you have to work at night and so you have to drink coffee and you feel kind of like hollow, but you're rattling.

• 45:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And you're just kind of like, how am I gonna do this?

• 45:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything's a little dreamlike and woozy.

• 45:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And then when you get off at like 7:00 AM, by that time, you're like, forget it, now I have energy.

• 45:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And you can't sleep. What are you gonna sleep till 2? And then what? They round up all the employees, these poor employees, and handcuff all of them. They happen to have brought the exact amount of handcuffs needed for the job.

• 45:54Karen Kilgariff?

  They didn't just happen by?

• 45:55Georgia Hardstark?

  No, they didn't. Then they pick out the manager, they find the manager, hold a gun to his head and bring him to the terminal's high-security vault. They drive the van right up to the vault and then threatening to kill this poor manager, they get him to open the vault and they load the vault's contents into the van. What's in the vault, you ask? Non-descript boxes. There's a ton of them and it takes them 45 minutes to load all of those into the stolen black van. These boxes have arrived on a plane from Germany on Friday.

• 46:29Karen Kilgariff?

  What's that?

• 46:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Germany. The boxes had been scheduled to be transferred to Chase Manhattan Bank first thing the morning when they arrived, but they had been stalled and had stayed over the weekend instead, these boxes. And the boxes, everyone knows, contain cash and jewelry. It's like a known thing, but nobody knows how much. So the van is loaded up, the thieves take the security tapes, which they know the location of, another insider info, and they drive away. End of the robbery. It's 4:20 a.m. at this point and the employees are instructed not to call the police until 4:30, which they comply with. And at some point, Keri Whalen, the man who got pistol-whipped, is let out of the van and no one's been killed.

• 47:15Georgia Hardstark?

  He's the only person who had been injured at all and he ends up being okay.

• 47:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Good.

• 47:20Georgia Hardstark?

  So, right away investigators are like, "Hi, inside job." They're fucking totally aware of it. The Lufthansa employees are able to tell the police that all six of them had, quote, "strong Brooklyn accents," which is like, "Ay, oh." The police are right that the thieves had someone helping them on the inside. A man named Louis Werner is a supervising shipping clerk at the Lufthansa cargo terminal at the airport and he, unfortunately, it turns out, is a gambler and he owes $20,000 to a man named Martin Krugman.

• 47:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't want to be judgmental, but it sounds like Louis is a little bit of a nerd.

• 47:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Which part of, because he's a supervising shipping clerk?

• 47:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and he's kind of like, it's probably the guy no one would expect.

• 48:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 48:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So they're just like, they're like, "Hey, Louis." You know what you're gonna do?

• 48:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 48:06Karen Kilgariff?

  That nobody's ever gonna think you would ever do.

• 48:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 48:09Karen Kilgariff?

  He's all nervous. I'm probably getting that from the movie.

• 48:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, totally. But $20,000 is a fucking lot of money.

• 48:16Karen Kilgariff?

  In 1978?

• 48:17Georgia Hardstark?

  1978, that is a, that's a ton of money now that you owe someone.

• 48:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 48:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, God, but guess how much it is in today's money?

• 48:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it $300,000?

• 48:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It's $100,000. I know.

• 48:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I always go way over.

• 48:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So the guy he owes money to, Martin Krugman, is a wig salesman.

• 48:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 48:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's so innocent, right? No. He's also an associate of certain mobsters named Henry Hill and Jimmy Burke. They are both associated with the Lucchese crime family.

• 48:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So wig salesman like, "Come on in, everybody. We got bobs. We got long hair."

• 48:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 48:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 48:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, back then, when they had, like, wig shops.

• 48:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 48:58Georgia Hardstark?

  But, like, he's in with the mob, though.

• 49:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, so he actually doesn't know anything about wigs?

• 49:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably not. I mean, what do you have to know about them? Put them on.

• 49:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, just pull it on. Try to pull it back a little so it looks normal.

• 49:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Now, we're into Goodfellas because this Henry Hill fellow is played by Ray Liotta.

• 49:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm, R.I.P.

• 49:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm. And Jimmy Burke, this guy, is played by Robert De Niro. So, like, that's how important they were, is they're played by two of the most, like, classic actors.

• 49:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Big deal, guys.

• 49:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Big deal, guys. So Louis Werner's situation, owing all that money, is not good, clearly. When gamblers can't pay Martin, the wig salesman, he sticks his enforcers on them. His enforcer goes by the name Spiky. Just immediately bad.

• 49:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Or it's one of those, like, opposite nicknames, where he's, like, real round and fat.

• 49:49Georgia Hardstark?

  He's the opposite of a spike.

• 49:52Georgia Hardstark?

  His fun, special M.O., his, like, thing, his, like, "This is my mob thing,"

• 49:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 49:57Georgia Hardstark?

  "is to take people into his basement and break their hands with a vice."

• 50:00Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 50:00Georgia Hardstark?

  "That's gonna be my thing," he says.

• 50:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm Spiky.

• 50:03Georgia Hardstark?

  "I'm Spiky."

• 50:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck. That's the piece where when we, when I talk about, like, the mob, I just wanna turn away because you've got, Spiky's doing stuff like that, where it's just like...

• 50:13Georgia Hardstark?

  No, they're not the beautiful people you want them to be and think they are.

• 50:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I just really treasure my wigs, and I don't want people touching them that have that kind of violence in their hearts.

• 50:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Spiky would never.

• 50:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Spiky, get out of the basement. Take a painting class.

• 50:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Pottery, a nice pottery throwing class. And so, of course, Louis Werner is like, oh, no, I don't want to fucking deal with my spiky and his vice grips. So he proposes an idea to Jimmy. He tells him, hey, man, I work at this cargo place. A large shipment of untraceable US currency regularly comes into the Lufthansa cargo terminal at JFK Airport. This is like a regular thing. He says it doesn't come in on a particular day, so we can't give him the day, but he says he always knows when it's going to arrive. So the shipment in general, why are they sending boxes of untraceable money from Germany to the US, right? It's because of an agreement between a German bank and the Chase Manhattan Bank in New York City.

• 51:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It's all money that American tourists, business people, and military personnel have exchanged in Germany. So like the money you exchange for German, what are they, fucking Reichsmarks? They have to go back to the US.

• 51:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, right.

• 51:26Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 51:27Karen Kilgariff?

  But where's our jewelry coming from?

• 51:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 51:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Here, take this necklace and I can have a couple Deutschmarks. Buy myself a drink.

• 51:34Georgia Hardstark?

  That was good.

• 51:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks.

• 51:36Georgia Hardstark?

  That was great.

• 51:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm working on my accent.

• 51:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I like it. And the serial numbers from those bills are not recorded, I don't think, until they get to Chase. So they're just unmarked bills in boxes at the cargo terminal.

• 51:47Karen Kilgariff?

  It was such a wild time and a loosey-goosey time back then.

• 51:50Georgia Hardstark?

  So loose and free. They're almost like, please steal this money.

• 51:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's just in a cardboard box. With what, a little tape on the top?

• 51:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Little tapes and stamps. With like this Hello Kitty tape, you know? It's just like, oop, there it is.

• 52:03Karen Kilgariff?

  This side up with a little cash symbol. So much money.

• 52:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Careful, money, or like fragile money.

• 52:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I heart money.

• 52:12Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's always a huge amount of money, generally in the millions, and just like everyone fucking knows that. So Martin brings the idea to his mafia connection, Henry Hill, Ray Liotta, and Jimmy Burke, Robert De Niro. He's like, hey, here's this idea, like, let's do it. And they run the idea up the chain of command to the capo, which is the head of the Lucchese family, who's like, sounds great, let's do it.

• 52:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Perfect.

• 52:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. A crew is assembled, mostly made up. Of the Lucchese Associates who all operate out of a bar in Queens. They all, that's their spot. It's called Roberts Lounge.

• 52:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Cool.

• 52:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Sounds great. Let's go.

• 52:46Karen Kilgariff?

  So good. So many brown drinks in there.

• 52:49Georgia Hardstark?

  So many.

• 52:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Rusty nails.

• 52:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Pinky rings.

• 52:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 52:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Wigs.

• 52:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Wigs.

• 52:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So many wigs.

• 52:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Wigs, too.

• 52:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's where Jimmy Burke conducts most of his business. And a plan comes together with the help from Louis on all of the logistics. He provides plans to the building and says he will tell them exactly when to come and pick up the shipment, which he does, that weekend in December. So immediately after the heist, it becomes clear to both authorities and to the thieves exactly how much money has actually been stolen. It turns out that there were two separate shipments in the vault that day, not one like the thieves had been expecting. And so the total amount of the untraceable bills they stole was $5 million. And in addition to this, there was about $800,000 worth of all that beautiful jewelry we were talking about.

• 53:35Karen Kilgariff?

  American jewelry in Europe.

• 53:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, the bangles and the roaches.

• 53:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I left my watch on the plane, Lufthansa.

• 53:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So that's about a total of about $5.8 million, which in today's money.

• 53:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, in 78?

• 53:50Georgia Hardstark?

  5.8 million. I think everyone was like, oh, fuck.

• 53:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it double? Is it like 10 million?

• 53:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It's 28 million.

• 53:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus Christ.

• 53:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:58Karen Kilgariff?

  They were stoked.

• 53:59Georgia Hardstark?

  At the time, this is the largest cash robbery ever on American soil.

• 54:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So they're like, at Roberts, they're like, pina coladas for everybody.

• 54:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 54:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's go.

• 54:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Top shelf. The cash is quickly laundered through a network of additional mob contacts, all of whom are told to lay low. They're like, don't fucking buy flashy shit because clearly like they're, they're kind of on to us and you're gonna like point them right in our direction. Just play it cool.

• 54:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 54:24Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? So things immediately start to go wrong, as they tend to do.

• 54:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 54:30Georgia Hardstark?

  When you make a movie about a thing that happens.

• 54:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially a thing that happens in the mafia.

• 54:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right. The stolen black van that, you know, was part of the heist is supposed to be driven to a salvage yard in New Jersey. And guess who it's owned by? John Gotti, who's like, not- He's not in this family, but he's like, I'll help you guys. I think they had so much money that they're like, let's like spread it around. Like, he's like, yes, I'll get rid of the van. But the man who's supposed to bring the van to the salvage yard, a man named Parnell Edwards, who goes by the nickname Stacks, which is a pretty great nickname.

• 55:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Spiky and Stacks?

• 55:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Spiky and Stacks.

• 55:04Karen Kilgariff?

  My favorite cartoon.

• 55:05Georgia Hardstark?

  So instead of doing what he's supposed to do, Stacks, for some fucking reason, parks the van in front of his girlfriend's apartment in Brooklyn.

• 55:14Karen Kilgariff?

  He loves her.

• 55:15Georgia Hardstark?

  He loves her so much, he like has to make a pit stop on the way to getting rid of the van.

• 55:19Karen Kilgariff?

  He's like, I'm trying to do these crimes, but I gotta come see you, sweetheart.

• 55:23Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Unfortunately, he parks the van in front of a hydrant.

• 55:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, oh.

• 55:29Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's immediately.

• 55:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Toad?

• 55:31Georgia Hardstark?

  No, like the police are immediately like, hey, here's, they know the van. They know it's the van. That had been reported stolen. That was used in the heist.

• 55:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Stacks.

• 55:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Stacks really fucking blew it. And also then Kerry Whelan's wallet is found inside the van.

• 55:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Kerry Whelan sounds like the name of a girl I would have gone to high school with. It's like, that does not sound like a mafia name at all.

• 55:53Georgia Hardstark?

  It's K E R R Y. Is that Irish?

• 55:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It sounds, it's an Irish last name, I think.

• 55:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So he was the one who worked at Lufthansa. He was the one who got pistol whipped.

• 56:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 56:04Georgia Hardstark?

  And like put in the van. So they were able to connect that to the van. You know what I mean? So like, they're like, this is the van. The FBI figures out whose apartment the van is parked in front of, knows who Stacks is and who he works for. And because of the rigid hierarchy of the mob, they basically know immediately which general circle of people is connected to this heist. You know?

• 56:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 56:27Georgia Hardstark?

  At the same time, investigators want to find out who the person was on the inside at Lufthansa who orchestrated the heist. Like, because he's maybe the worst one.

• 56:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe.

• 56:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? They first focus on a Lufthansa employee named Peter Grinwald. And Peter had actually in the past conspired with Louis Werner to plan this exact kind of heist. But Peter was either cut out of the plan in the end, or he just didn't want to participate. But it doesn't matter because Peter knows all about it and knows who the players are. Even though he wasn't participating, so he agrees to testify in exchange for immunity and immediately rats on his coworker, Louis Werner.

• 57:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It can't feel good when you're ratting on a fellow mafia guy.

• 57:11Georgia Hardstark?

  No, you gotta get out of there.

• 57:13Karen Kilgariff?

  All the stuff in the mafia is the opposite of that.

• 57:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, Louis Werner isn't a mafia guy. He just fucking owes the mafia money.

• 57:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's right. Sorry. Well, he's an associate.

• 57:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And you hang around.

• 57:22Georgia Hardstark?

  My association, you're an associate.

• 57:23Karen Kilgariff?

  You, that's right. You hang around a barber shop, you're gonna get a haircut.

• 57:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that. I love that.

• 57:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I didn't make it up.

• 57:31Georgia Hardstark?

  It sounds like an old Irish thing. Okay. So Louis is arrested, charged, found guilty. He's sentenced to 15 years in prison, all within the first half of 1979. Ultimately, though, he's the only person who was ever convicted in connection with the Lufthansa heist.

• 57:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 57:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Interestingly. And you're like, oh, why aren't more people prosecuted for that? Well, people start to get whacked.

• 57:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 57:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Mostly by the order of Jimmy Burke. So the first of all is Stacks.

• 58:02Karen Kilgariff?

  No, we lost Stacks.

• 58:04Georgia Hardstark?

  He fucked up so bad.

• 58:06Karen Kilgariff?

  He really did.

• 58:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, that was kind of a given, you know?

• 58:09Karen Kilgariff?

  My boyfriend Stacks died.

• 58:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He's found in an apartment in Ozone Park, Queens, having been shot in the head on December 18th, just a week after the heist, and he had to know it was coming.

• 58:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 58:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, he fucked up real bad.

• 58:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Although if they shot him from behind, it might have been a Sopranos situation where he was, it was just over.

• 58:27Georgia Hardstark?

  But he had to know that it was coming.

• 58:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes.

• 58:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Because he fucked up. You know what I mean?

• 58:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, he was out in Ozone Park because he knew it was coming.

• 58:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he's, he's like, I'm gonna get my hand in a vice grip and then I'm fucking dead.

• 58:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 58:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So next to go is Martin Krugman, the wig salesman. Poor Marty. Part of the problem is that Martin also owes money to loan sharks. He's not just a loan shark himself. He owes money to them. And he's so anxious to get his cut from the heist, which is supposed to be like half a million dollars, that he keeps going to Robert's Lounge and bugging Jimmy Burke for his cut, which is like, you just don't want to do that.

• 59:00Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 59:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like every, that's Mob 101.

• 59:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like that's in the movie. Or there's something in the, in the movie where it's like,

• 59:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:08Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a guy that comes to the bar.

• 59:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Just keeps nagging.

• 59:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 59:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I haven't seen it in a long time. Great fucking movie.

• 59:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Such a good movie.

• 59:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Double feature. Fucking good fellas. And I'm just gonna keep pushing my blue heaven. It's really a gem, and I feel like it's not given enough credit.

• 59:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Do it.

• 59:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, by early January, Martin goes missing and his body's never found. Another member of the crew named Tommy DiSimone, who's played by Joe Pesci.

• 59:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 59:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Classic. He gets killed by members of the Gotti Crew as vengeance for a different killing, not even directly related to the Lufthansa heist. But the heist probably did set the events in motion that led to it, so it is connected. It's all connected in the mob. Then, another member of the crew named Louis Scifora, whose nickname, It's a Deli Meat.

• 59:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, uh, it's a head cheese, Louis Head Cheese Gomorrah?

• 59:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Nickname is roast beef.

• 59:57Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 59:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Who wouldn't have gotten, who would have gotten that?

• 1:00:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so simple.

• 1:00:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 1:00:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And delicious.

• 1:00:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Roast beef.

• 1:00:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I roast beef.

• 1:00:06Georgia Hardstark?

  This guy goes and buys his wife a custom pink Cadillac right away.

• 1:00:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Fool.

• 1:00:12Georgia Hardstark?

  With his share of the money.

• 1:00:14Karen Kilgariff?

  You put a Mary Kay sticker on the back, then no one's the wiser.

• 1:00:18Georgia Hardstark?

  That's true, but he didn't do that. It was like, they told you not to buy flashy shit, and you buy a pink Cadillac.

• 1:00:23Karen Kilgariff?

  You buy the flashiest shit.

• 1:00:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. You know my second cousin wrote the song Pink Cadillac?

• 1:00:28Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:00:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:00:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:31Karen Kilgariff?

  We've been doing this podcast for eight and a half years, and you've never bragged about that?

• 1:00:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm trying to make sure that that's right. I'm fact checking that in my mind.

• 1:00:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And is it the Bruce Springsteen song, Pink Cadillac?

• 1:00:42Georgia Hardstark?

  No, was it? Yeah, but who else sang it?

• 1:00:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Aretha Franklin?

• 1:00:45Georgia Hardstark?

  There you go. He wrote that. From the Bay Area. Maybe you knew him.

• 1:00:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I did. I was very good friends with him. I loved his music.

• 1:00:52Georgia Hardstark?

  So Louis and his wife, they disappear. Their bodies are never found. The wife too. That's bummer, yeah. Then two other members of the crew, who were likely directly involved in the heist, because they actually worked at JFK for Air France's cargo terminal, were found dead in the same car. Both of them shot in the head. So like, everyone's taken out at this point, which I kind of remember that part in Goodfellas.

• 1:01:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, where the killings start and it's just like boom, boom, boom.

• 1:01:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's like a montage of hits.

• 1:01:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:01:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And so while all this is going on, Henry Hill, our friend Ray Liotta, who first brought the idea of the heist to Jimmy Burke, is starting to worry a little bit. He's worried that Burke's gonna find a reason to kill him, too. Henry wasn't actually directly involved in the heist that we know of, but at this point, even people who are tangentially involved are getting killed.

• 1:01:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Georgia Hardstark?

  So in 1980, Henry Hill is arrested on drug trafficking charges, and he's ultimately convinced to become an informant. And that is so his family can enter the witness protection program. Right around the time Henry becomes an informant, Jimmy Burke is arrested for a totally separate crime, a college basketball points fixing scheme. Of course Vince knows about when I asked him about it. Of course, sports, he knows everything.

• 1:02:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, how the fuck do you do that?

• 1:02:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. It says this happens at Boston College, and it's a big scandal on its own. I think you just, I think you-

• 1:02:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Get people to not-

• 1:02:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Score.

• 1:02:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Not score, I guess.

• 1:02:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Or not block or whatever, but-

• 1:02:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:02:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Or like get a certain amount of points, I don't know.

• 1:02:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Huh.

• 1:02:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:02:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Burke is sentenced to 12 years in prison, but then is also convicted of the murder of a Florida club owner who likely also laundered money from the Lutonza heist and had been skimming. So Jimmy goes to prison, but he dies there in 1996. So Henry Hill's testimony, you know, as a, he becomes a rat. His testimony leads to 50 separate convictions in assorted mob cases.

• 1:02:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:02:55Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's like one of the biggest fucking turns in mob history.

• 1:02:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Georgia Hardstark?

  His family changes their name and lives in various other states around the country, which I like, I don't know why I found fascinating, and I want to know everything about it.

• 1:03:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, about the witness protection program?

• 1:03:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and then you start thinking about like the, like kids who were at your school for like six months and then like-

• 1:03:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:03:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Had a weird background story and then left again?

• 1:03:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. That happened all the time where I'm like, I've always lived here. How come you just-

• 1:03:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:21Karen Kilgariff?

  You're coming and going willy-nilly?

• 1:03:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, like when someone, in Orange County, when someone would transfer from like Florida, you'd be like, what the fuck are you doing in Irvine from Florida?

• 1:03:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't buy this story of that you're only in the second grade.

• 1:03:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. You look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. You're not a kindergarten cop, um, or teacher. Anyway, so they live in various states around the country. I think he marries and remarries and he dies at the age of 69 in 2012. So he never gets fucking off by the mafia.

• 1:03:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's crazy. He gets away.

• 1:03:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And so none of the cash or jewels that were stolen from the cargo terminal, which would be worth about 28 million today, has ever been found.

• 1:04:05Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:04:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it wasn't traceable.

• 1:04:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like the last great heist.

• 1:04:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Holy shit.

• 1:04:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That money put some fucking kids through college, I bet.

• 1:04:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God. Just real low key paying for like a pool.

• 1:04:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:16Karen Kilgariff?

  And some nice purses.

• 1:04:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. A couple of fur coats.

• 1:04:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe a nice cruise.

• 1:04:20Georgia Hardstark?

  A nice cruise.

• 1:04:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Just low key.

• 1:04:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, low key. Not a pink Cadillac. And when Henry Hill was working with Nicholas Palesi to write Goodfellas, or to write the book that Goodfellas was based on in the screenplay, sometimes he'd call late at night and Nicholas wouldn't be around. So he talked to his wife Nora Ephron, not knowing that she was just getting information from him to write My Blue Heaven, the whole time when she'd just like, hey, just let's chat. And he said, quote, "I never got a penny for it, but Nick," her husband, "had been so generous with me that I let it slide. Had it been anyone else's wife." Dot, dot, dot. Yeah.

• 1:05:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:05:02Georgia Hardstark?

  So she fucking pushed it.

• 1:05:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So essentially, it's almost like those are mirror movies.

• 1:05:09Georgia Hardstark?

  And they came out in the same year.

• 1:05:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Did the people that made them kind of know that?

• 1:05:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I think so.

• 1:05:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:05:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And that's the story of a Luptanza heist.

• 1:05:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible. That was great.

• 1:05:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. So different.

• 1:05:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's the, uh, the light and dark of life.

• 1:05:27Georgia Hardstark?

  The duality.

• 1:05:28Karen Kilgariff?

  The duality of this human experience, that we are just going to have to keep on playing back and forth over and over to get through the next four years.

• 1:05:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean... What is the reasoning? What is the answer? What is the purpose? What is the...

• 1:05:44Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll figure it out.

• 1:05:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Will we?

• 1:05:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe. You never know.

• 1:05:48Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't never know.

• 1:05:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, you do never know.

• 1:05:51Georgia Hardstark?

  You do never not know.

• 1:05:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, guys, thanks.

• 1:05:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks for listening. Thanks for sticking with us.

• 1:05:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right. Stay strong. Go outside and walk around. Turn your head from left to right. That's real good for the nervous system.

• 1:06:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Adopt a puppy or a kitten or an older dog or a senior cat. Adopt an animal. They really give you that endorphin rush that you need.

• 1:06:13Karen Kilgariff?

  They do help you. And if you can't afford an animal, pick a bird in the park that you like and visit it day after day. And remember, we're going to get through this. Stay sexy.

• 1:06:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:06:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:06:37Georgia Hardstark?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle-Creighton. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci. Our researchers are Maren McClashern and Ally Elkin. Email your hometowns to [email protected]. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder and Twitter at MyFaveMurder. Goodbye.

• 1:07:05Speaker 03

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• 1:08:35Speaker 05

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