#483: Jim Collins on The Value of Small Gestures, Unseen Sources of Power, and More

Jim Collins (jimcollins.com http://jimcollins.com/) is a student and teacher of what makes great companies tick and a Socratic advisor to leaders in the business and social sectors. Having invested more than a quarter-century in rigorous research, he has authored or co-authored six books that have sold in total more than 10 million copies worldwide. They include Good to Great https://www.amazon.com/Good-Great-Some-Companies-Others/dp/0066620996/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, the #1 bestseller that examines why some companies make the leap to superior results, and its companion work Good to Great and the Social Sectors https://www.amazon.com/Good-Great-Social-Sectors-Business/dp/0977326403/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20; the enduring classic Built to Last https://www.amazon.com/Built-Last-Successful-Visionary-Essentials/dp/0060516402/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, which explores how some leaders build companies that remain visionary for generations; How the Mighty Fall https://www.amazon.com/How-Mighty-Fall-Companies-Never/dp/0977326411/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, which delves into how once-great companies can self-destruct; and Great by Choice https://www.amazon.com/Great-Choice-Uncertainty-Luck-Why-Despite/dp/0062120999/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, which is about thriving in chaos—why some do and others don’t. And now he’s updating his debut book, Beyond Entrepreneurship https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Entrepreneurship-Turning-Business-Enduring/dp/0133815269/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, for the 21st century. Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0: Turning Your Business into an Enduring Great Company https://www.amazon.com/BE-2-0-Beyond-Entrepreneurship-Business-dp-0399564233/dp/0399564233/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20 is now available. Please enjoy this round two with Jim Collins! (And if you haven’t already, make sure to check out round one here https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/.) * This episode is also brought to you by GiveWell.org https://www.givewell.org/tim! For over ten years GiveWell.org https://www.givewell.org/tim has helped donors find the charities and projects that save and improve lives most per dollar. Here’s how: GiveWell https://www.givewell.org/tim dedicates over twenty thousand hours a year to researching charitable organizations and hand-picks a few of the highest-impact, evidence-backed charities https://www.givewell.org/tim. Since 2010, GiveWell https://www.givewell.org/tim has helped over 50,000 donors direct over 500 million dollars to the most effective charities. Most importantly, these donations will save over 75,000 lives and improve the lives of millions more. This year, support the charities that save and improve lives most, with GiveWell https://www.givewell.org/tim. Any of my listeners who become new GiveWell donors will have their first donation matched up to $250 https://www.givewell.org/tim when you go to GiveWell dot org/Tim https://www.givewell.org/timand select “PODCAST” and “Tim Ferriss” at checkout. * This episode is also brought to you by Wealthfront http://wealthfront.com/Tim! Wealthfront http://wealthfront.com/Tim pioneered the automated investing movement, sometimes referred to as ‘robo-advising,’ and they currently oversee $20 billion of assets for their clients. It takes about three minutes to sign up, and then Wealthfront will build you a globally diversified portfolio of ETFs based on your risk appetite http://wealthfront.com/Tim and manage it for you at an incredibly low cost. Smart investing should not feel like a rollercoaster ride. Let the professionals do the work for you. Go to Wealthfront.com/Tim http://wealthfront.com/Tim and open a Wealthfront account today, and you’ll get your first $5,000 managed for free, for life http://wealthfront.com/Tim. Wealthfront http://wealthfront.com/Tim will automate your investments for the long term. Get started today at Wealthfront.com/Tim http://wealthfront.com/Tim. *** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews! For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. 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• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  Well, hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, damas y caballeros. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers of all different types, from all different industries, areas of expertise. My guest today, back by popular request, is Jim Collins. Jim Collins is a student and teacher of what makes great companies tick, and a Socratic advisor, we'll explain what that means, to leaders throughout the business and social sectors. His first appearance on this podcast was easily one of the most popular of all of 2019. People went bananas. So, the hope is that we bottle some of that lightning again in this round two, and we cover a lot of new ground. For those who don't know Jim, Jim has invested more than 25 years in rigorous research,

• 0:45Tim Ferriss?

  and has authored or co-authored six books that have sold more than 10 million copies worldwide in total. They include Good to Great, the number one bestseller that examines why some companies make the leap to superior results, and its companion work, Good to Great and the Social Sectors; the enduring classic Built to Last, many of you will know that, which explores how some leaders build companies that remain visionary for generations; How the Mighty Fall, just in some ways, the exact opposite, which delves into how once great companies can self-destruct; and Great by Choice, which is about thriving in chaos, why some do and others don't. And now, he's updated his debut book, Beyond Entrepreneurship for the 21st Century. Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0 is the title. Subtitle, Turning Your Business Into An Enduring Great Company is the subtitle,

• 1:30Tim Ferriss?

  is available now everywhere books are sold. Lesser known, and as a teaser for those who didn't pick this up in the first episode, Jim has been an avid rock climber for more than 40 years, and has completed single-day ascents of El Capitan and Half Dome in Yosemite Valley. Those of you in rock climbing will know just how serious those accomplishments are. And he has many other interests, many other skills, and is an all-around fascinating character. So, without further ado, Jim Collins, jimcollins.com is where you can find all things. Jim, please enjoy this return of the reclusive polymath Jim Collins.

• 2:10Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by GiveWell.org. 'Tis the season of giving, isn't it? And you've got a few weeks left to make your charitable donations before we close the books on 2020. This is why I encourage you to check out GiveWell.org. For more than 10 years, GiveWell.org has helped donors find the charities and projects that save and improve lives most per dollar. Here's how. GiveWell dedicates more than 20,000 hours a year to researching charitable organizations and handpicks a few of the highest impact, evidence-backed charities. I recommend GiveWell.org, and they shared a note with me, which is just incredible. And here it is. Quote, "Here are the data," they sent me a spreadsheet, "we have from organic donations that cited Tim over the past few years.

• 2:53Tim Ferriss?

  Transactions that specifically cited Tim Ferriss sum to $133,040.74. We estimate that those donations will save 15 to 24 lives." How did this happen? I suspect that a lot of these donations came from my interview with Will MacAskill, who really knows what he's talking about when it comes to effective giving. He's a philosopher, ethicist, and one of the originators of the effective altruism movement. He is an associate professor in philosophy at Oxford, that is, the University of Oxford, and a researcher at the Global Priorities Institute at Oxford. Just a great guy overall. And in our podcast together, he recommended GiveWell by far as one of the best places to give if you want to make an impact, especially if you're busy. It came to his mind immediately.

• 3:35Tim Ferriss?

  All of their research is publicly available for free on their website. And more importantly, GiveWell never takes any fees, so all of your tax-deductible donations are given to the charity you choose. Since 2010, GiveWell has helped more than 50,000 donors direct more than $500 million to the most effective charities. These donations will save more than 75,000 lives and improve the lives of millions more. So if you want to have the best bang for buck, each dollar you put in to have the greatest impact, this is just one of the fastest, easiest ways to hone in on the best options, the highest leverage options. This year, you can support the charities that save and improve lives most with GiveWell. If you want your

• 4:18Tim Ferriss?

  Your donation to have even more impact, you can act soon. Any of my listeners, that's you guys, who become new GiveWell donors will have their first donation matched up to $250 when you go to givewell.org/tim and select Podcast and Tim Ferriss at checkout. This matching offer is good for as long as the funds last, could go quickly, so check it out. This is a special chance for even a small donation to make a big impact. Get your first donation matched up to $250 when you go to givewell.org/tim and select Podcast and Tim Ferriss at checkout. One more time, definitely check it out, givewell.org/tim.

• 5:03Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Tonal, T-O-N-A-L. I'm super excited about this one, and I was skeptical of it in the beginning. Tonal, quote, "Tonal is the world's most intelligent home gym and personal trainer," end quote. That's the tagline from their website, folks, to give you the one-sentence summary. And this device, it's really a system, is perfect for anyone looking to take their home workouts to the next level, or someone who just wants to get maximum bang for the buck in a tiny, tiny footprint of space. Tonal is precision engineered to be the world's most advanced strength studio and personal trainer. It uses breakthrough technology of all different types to help get you stronger faster. I was introduced to Tonal by three different friends. All of them are tech savvy.

• 5:45Tim Ferriss?

  One of them is a former competitive skier who's doubled his strength in a number of movements using Tonal, even though he has a long athletic background. And I'll paint a picture for you. By eliminating traditional metal weights, dumbbells and barbells, Tonal can deliver 200 pounds of resistance, which doesn't sound like a lot, but it's actually, it feels like a lot more at the high end, in a device smaller than a flat-screen TV. And you can perform at least 150 different exercises. And these different technologies are exclusive to Tonal. And you can dial weights up and down with the touch of a button in one-pound increments using magnets and electricity. So the movement is extremely smooth, and even though I have a home gym already in my garage, I'm still...

• 6:28Tim Ferriss?

  Getting a Tonal installed. I've used Tonal for multiple workouts now to do things I just cannot do in my home gym, such as the chop and lift exercises from the 4-Hour Body. All sorts of cable exercises that would usually involve much, much bigger piece of equipment. Eccentric training. For instance, you can do, to give a simple example, bicep curls where you are lifting, let's just say, 20 pounds in each hand up, and then Tonal will automatically increase the weight, because you can lower more than you can lift, to say 25 or 30 pounds on the way down. And I do kettlebell swings, I do all sorts of deadlifts, this, that, and the other thing. And after one workout on Tonal focusing on pulling,

• 7:10Tim Ferriss?

  I was blasted for a full week. It's really incredible what you can do with eccentrics. They also have all sorts of other really, really cool advantages that you can apply to any of your favorite movements. Tonal learns from your strength and provides suggested weight recommendations for every move, with detailed progress reports to help you see your strengths grow. Tonal also has a growing library of expert-led workouts by motivating coaches from strength training to cardio. So you can do really just about everything. Every program is personalized to your body, using artificial intelligence and other aspects of the engineering. And smart features check your form in real time, just like a personal trainer. So, check it out. Try Tonal, T-O-N-A-L, the world's smartest home gym, for 30 days in your home. And if you don't love it, you can

• 7:55Tim Ferriss?

  return it for a full refund. Visit www.tonal.com, T-O-N-A-L.com, and for a limited time, get $100 off of smart accessories when you use promo code TIM21, like I'm ready for my first drink, at checkout. That's www.tonal, T-O-N-A-L, dot com, promo code TIM21, T-I-M-21. Tonal, be your strongest. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole-body health. I do get asked a lot, what I would take if I could only take one supplement? And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases.

• 8:38Tim Ferriss?

  I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out, go to drinkag1.com/tim. That's drink A G one, the number one, drinkag1.com/tim. Last time, drinkag1.com/tim. Check it out.

• 9:21Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 9:27Speaker 02

  No, I would have seen an appropriate time.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 9:43Tim Ferriss?

  Jim, welcome back to the show. It is such a pleasure to have you again.

• 9:47Jim Collins?

  It is really a joy to be back with you. And for all of those people who may not have heard the first session we did together, you did such a marvelous job of extracting my particular approaches to self-management that I hope some people will go back and find that previous one, and then we can build upon it from here. And in the spirit of conversation, you and I love conversation, we love ideas. I'd love to begin with maybe turning the tables a little and just asking you some questions. And I was rereading The Four Hour Work Week and just kind of getting myself into your head about what you wrote that about 15 years ago, is that right, approximately?

• 10:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, 2007.

• 10:32Jim Collins?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:33Tim Ferriss?

  So about 15 years ago.

• 10:35Jim Collins?

  About 15 years ago. So the first thing that just struck me is I noted in there that you had really been affected by Ed Shau. And I'm curious if you're still in touch and also what you really learned from him.

• 10:51Tim Ferriss?

  Ed Shau, yes, we're still in touch. Professor Ed Shau, spelled Z S C H A U. For people interested, he's also appeared on the podcast not too long ago. I would say a year and a half or two years ago. And we're still in touch. And Ed had a tremendous impact on me on multiple levels. And I was first exposed to him when I was a student in his class called High Tech Entrepreneurship, ELE 491. So it was a cross-disciplinary class. It spanned a few different departments, electrical engineering, operations, research, finance. And Ed appealed to me, and I think appealed to a lot of people because, for those who

• 11:32Tim Ferriss?

  don't have any context, he is a true polymath and a very curious character. So he had been a competitive figure skater. He'd taken a few companies public. He was one of the first computer science instructors at Stanford. And if my memory serves me correctly, he became that because the person who'd been appointed to teach didn't show up and he just raised his hand and so became one of the first computer science teachers. He was a congressman and is really the consummate teacher in my mind and encourages all of his students to do it their own way, to live life their own way, to not depend on a predetermined path.

• 12:17Tim Ferriss?

  And we are still in touch. We're still in touch. And I'm still in touch with most of the most impactful mentors from my life story.

• 12:28Jim Collins?

  And he's getting up there in years in chronological age, but sure strikes me as quite intensely young. And what do you think his arc teaches about, you know, really accelerating after 60?

• 12:45Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I think that...

• 12:48Tim Ferriss?

  Not to invoke the cliche, but some things are cliches for good reasons that youth is in the heart or youth is in the mind. I think that Ed has made a life of exposing himself to new ideas, new technologies, young blood in the form of vibrant, young, energized students and entrepreneurs, founders full of piss and vinegar. So I think that has a, an osmotic carryover effect into his own life, which I believe he is extremely aware of. Those would be a few of the things that come to mind. He, he is constantly challenging

• 13:28Tim Ferriss?

  his own understanding of the world and possibilities via proactively exposing himself to new things and new people.

• 13:40Jim Collins?

  So I, I'd love to bridge from that to a question that's been just really simmering in my head all weekend. And so you have this, this wonderful course and he has this kind of, look, you really don't have to force yourself into a box of what a whole bunch of other people want you to do, or how you should live, or how you should, you know, expend your life and your, your talents. There's only one. You better use it well. It goes by really fast. And I sort of understand the story. You kind of went out and, you know, hit the, the soul crushing day-to-day experience of this thing that you and I are

• 14:19Jim Collins?

  both constitutionally incapable of enjoying called the job. And I sort of, you know, there are those of us who, for better or worse, we are constitutionally unemployable. And then sort of from there to, if I understand the arc of the four-hour work week argument, it was essentially, look, if you want to have a life of experiences and meaningful experiences and freedom of choices and how you live that. By very creative and disciplined approaches, you could kind of squeeze down the amount of energy that's needed to earn the cash flow needed to be able to have the experiences and a great life.

• 15:03Jim Collins?

  And that there was a lot of both tips and overall principles for doing that. Have I got it kind of essentially right?

• 15:09Tim Ferriss?

  You did. I think that is essentially right. I would, I would say that creative and disciplined could also just as easily be replaced with creative and experimental. I think the experimental component is, is a large, large piece of the puzzle. But yes, you did, you did nail the essence.

• 15:32Jim Collins?

  So, so now here's, here's the question that's been on my mind. And I'm really curious to hear how you've evolved on this. So at that time, you, if I also heard it right, you didn't come from a wealthy family.

• 15:44Tim Ferriss?

  Did not.

• 15:45Jim Collins?

  You had a, something about your parents combined earned something like 50,000 a year or something like that, but basically came from a like, you know, look, there's not a big safety net. It's not like, hey, I can just go do anything. People will support it. You have the reality of the world. And, and yet you weren't going to bow to the strictures of the way regular work would happen. And so you share a lot of your wisdom from your own experimentation with that. Now, what's interesting is that was really focused up, to me anyways, is you were really focused at that point on, I can get the work part down so I can really do this life thing. Your life's different now.

• 16:21Tim Ferriss?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:22Jim Collins?

  Your life is different in that that question of what's my minimum monthly cash flow I need to be able to fund great experiences is actually no longer a relevant question for you. So my question for you at this stage is what keeps Tim Ferriss going?

• 16:40Jim Collins?

  What is it that drives you in your work? Because the option of just experiences is fully available. So what is it that's changed for you? That's now the inner motor that keeps Tim Ferriss going and going?

• 16:58Tim Ferriss?

  That is an excellent question. I'll try to not give a terrible answer. A few things pop to mind for me. And the first is an appreciation for and a search for beauty. I think that the search for beauty and elegance, which are similar in my mind, but not identical, has become the fuel for the seeker, if that makes any sense. And I find that in my own personal experience, that when I search for beauty, which seems

• 17:42Tim Ferriss?

  like it is absurdly too high on Maslow's hierarchy of needs to be relevant to anyone, perhaps, it sounds very abstract, that I tend to find more truth than when I purely try to deduce truth intellectually in a very prefrontal way. And that the, to use a crass term, the return on investment of finding those examples of beauty far surpass a lot of what I had white knuckled to achieve through crunching numbers and digesting spreadsheets. Not to say there isn't a value to that. I think it is necessary, but I have found it insufficient if you want to experience

• 18:27Tim Ferriss?

  what we might call some semblance of grace. I know we're getting out into maybe the deep waters here a bit.

• 18:34Jim Collins?

  What's an example for you of? So it's interesting, actually, I really resonate with this idea of the exquisite, right? And the word, you know, that I've often, even when I'm engaged with often making companies or whatever, at some point, there's just something that's, that making something exquisite, making something excellent because it can be, is not a means to an end.

• 19:04Jim Collins?

  It is an end in itself. And I always think about that wonderful parable of the, I think it was one I learned, heard from Drucker, actually, about the sculptor who made these statues that the city fathers had asked to make these statues and the statues were, you know, to be up in the town square. And he made, he put in all this extra effort and took this extra time to make the backs of the statues as beautiful as the fronts of the statues. And the city fathers are, well, why did you do that? Nobody will ever see the backs of the statues. And his answer is, ah, but the gods can see it.

• 19:48Jim Collins?

  And I know it's there. Right? And so, and, you know, that, that notion of, or making a sentence just, just right, or the simple cadence of where you place a comma, right? Are, are the person we both admire in writing, John McPhee, you know, his sense of the exquisite single sentence. I really relate to this. And I'm curious for you, like, what's an example? Like, how wide of a range does exquisite or beauty go for you? Is it exquisite experience, exquisite painting, the exquisite goosebumps of Beethoven's Symphony Number Three, Movement Number Two, when it goes into the funeral march? I mean, what is it?

• 20:30Tim Ferriss?

  It is all encompassing, in a sense. And I would also rewind to a bit earlier when you asked me the question that has been on your mind over the weekend. And I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like, what drives you?

• 20:46Jim Collins?

  Yeah, what keeps Tim Ferriss going?

• 20:48Tim Ferriss?

  Right, what keeps me going. So I think that if we look at keeping someone going, there are different ways to keep someone going. And you can feel driven. We use that word in English a lot. I think that for some, that if we were to... Unpack it has some level of being whipped forward in terms of sentiment. There is something we are running away from as opposed to running towards, if that makes any sense. There's some type of pain or dysfunction or wound next to our strength that is driving us forward. And then there's a very distinct feeling, which is that of being pulled towards something.

• 21:31Tim Ferriss?

  And I have found it more sustainable, enjoyable, and ultimately more aligned in recent years to seek those things that pull me forward. And beauty is one of those indicators. It's kind of the light at the lighthouse. Tim O'Reilly is one of my favorite thinkers, fantastic person, a technologist, well-known publisher, and he and I have had a number of conversations. And one of his practices, at least at the time that we were speaking last, was to take a photograph of one flower each day. And that is a practice of recognizing beauty.

• 22:14Tim Ferriss?

  It's not that beauty is hard to find, it's that it is easy to overlook. So cultivating the eye and the awareness to spot beauty, whether that's in a flower or, quite frankly, in something that would normally be found repulsive, like decay of some type, is endlessly interesting to me. And I do find that when I am attuned to that, the simplicity of that, in the same way that Mary Oliver might simplify the approach to prayer, if someone were to want to explore that

• 22:55Tim Ferriss?

  practice, as an example, even in a very secular way, which might sound like an oxymoron, but I'll try not to drown us in the deep waters too much at this point in the conversation.

• 23:08Tim Ferriss?

  I do think that a lot of it is driven to, or not driven to, I would say based in reactivating instincts that have been not forgotten, but just in some fashion laid dormant. So there's a quote from D. H. Lawrence that I like a lot, which is very simple, be a good animal, comma, true to your instincts. That's it. And I've operated very much from a, metaphorically speaking, left brain analytical perspective for decades. And there are tremendous

• 23:47Tim Ferriss?

  benefits and applications for that. And I'm trying to, in recent years, pay equal attention to the millions of years of evolution that preceded language that have as an end product in some fashion, a whole spectrum of what we might call instincts that I believe to be deeply intelligent and powerful as guiding forces. So I'm not sure if that answers the question.

• 24:21Jim Collins?

  No, no. It's very interesting. And I asked the question for two levels about what keeps you going. I'm genuinely curious, because you were at a different stage in your life and you wrote that. And people who still resonate with it today very much may also be back where you were when you were doing that. They're facing different constraints in life and wanting to create their freedom with that. And it gives them a toolkit for that. It's a very useful toolkit. And one observation, and then just something that I found for myself is how I think about this, is that my sense in reading The Four Hour Work Week was that it was in many ways reacting to the order in which you were placed, the

• 25:03Jim Collins?

  sort of, I reject this, I'm going to do it different, and did, right? And it's kind of like moving away from, I don't want that. And the way you describe it now is it's a moving toward.

• 25:17Tim Ferriss?

  That's right.

• 25:18Jim Collins?

  Right. It's a moving toward beauty, towards exquisite, towards exploration as opposed to reacting from it. And it's very striking in the tone difference. I found, as I've thought about this for myself, because I have, like you, didn't have much of a safety net. We talked about that in our last episode, and taking big entrepreneurial, or the big bet that Joanna and I took, and it was very scary and so forth, still wanting to go forward and do it, and had these sort of different sort of drives early. And I've thought of it as kind of, what's the point allocation? I always tend to go to point allocations and numbers and so forth, but what's the point allocation between dark force motivations and light

• 25:58Jim Collins?

  force motivations? And dark force motivations for me have always been the things like anger, rage, channeled, channeled rage, insecurity, need for attention, just, you know, accomplishment to show others I'm capable, right? Those things that I felt very much when I was young. And then there's light force points, which are, I just love the work. Like, I just love the work. Or, I love the people I'm doing it with. Or, the sheer curiosity of the question. Or, I know I can make this better, even if no one else notices. So, therefore, I want to make it better. And the sheer joy of seeing something come out on the page, it's like,

• 26:39Jim Collins?

  wow, that's a neat sentence, or whatever. And the drive for contribution, being useful, as we talked about last time, versus being successful and so forth. And so, what I have found is that, for me, it's trying to be, you know, moving, decreasing the points out of 100 that are dark force motivations, which I would say, when I was younger, were 80/20. And I was afraid to let go of those, because I felt that, you know, if I let go of the emptiness in my stomach because my dad didn't pay attention to me, you know, I'll lose my drive, right?

• 27:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, lose your edge.

• 27:16Jim Collins?

  I'll lose my edge. I need that. I need that. That's the fuel. That's the kindling. That's the explosive power within. What if I lost that? Right?

• 27:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 27:25Jim Collins?

  And the sense of fear that, what if that went away? And then gradually realizing that, actually, if I replace that with the others, right, the point allocations go from 80/20 dark force, and they flip to, and I don't think I'll ever get to 100/0. I really don't. I'm way too human for that. But if I could get to 80/20 light force... It's constantly generating. It doesn't ever have an end and you can let the others sort of go. And it is a moving toward versus a reacting to. Very interesting to hear that. Let me just ask you, just in terms of beauty, I just some one other thing and then I'll put myself in your hands. You know, somebody said to me, are you ever gonna do a podcast?

• 28:10Jim Collins?

  I said, well, I'll sometimes, you know, be on one, but if I get a marvelous podcaster, then I can just be the questioner. So anyways.

• 28:21Tim Ferriss?

  I'm game.

• 28:22Jim Collins?

  I think you and Joanne and I all share something in common, which is we are all Dean Fred Hargadon admits. Is that right?

• 28:31Tim Ferriss?

  That's right.

• 28:32Jim Collins?

  Okay, we are. And we were both admitted by Dean Fred at Stanford. You were admitted by Dean Fred at Princeton. And I noticed in your book, you said, and I'm not sure why they let me in, because like I was sort of off the sort of normal mode, like when you think of all the, you know, straight A, double 1600, SAT, whiz brain, you could fill the whole class and still have like 200% left over with people like that. Why'd they let me in? And so I gotta share with you this story. Did you ever meet Dean Fred?

• 29:01Tim Ferriss?

  I did, I did.

• 29:02Jim Collins?

  Okay. So I gotta share with you this story, but it ties into the idea of creating something beautiful. So for my 25th college reunion, I was asked to go and be on our class panel. And after the class panel was the presentation and an interaction with us by Dean Fred. He'd come back, he was at Princeton then as dean of admissions, but he came back to talk to a bunch of us who he'd admitted. We got to chatting afterwards, he came in over and found Joanne and me. It turns out that he was a real fan of Good to Great. And he also had a framed picture of Joanne in his house, I think, at the bottom of his stairs, in her cycling outfit from the years that she was one of the Ironman, her, back

• 29:46Jim Collins?

  then, one of her, you know, sports endorsement posters. And so it's kind of like, it was sort of fun, sort of coming full circle that he was still following us in some way. But in that conversation, one, I asked him, how long does it take you to make a great admissions decision? He said, 30 years and 30 minutes.

• 30:08Jim Collins?

  It's just a great example of cumulative pattern recognition, right? And then he had shared with us, I can't remember whether it was just us personally or the whole group, but he said, you know, what I've really learned is that you have to put the extra little splash in things that isn't just every kid looks like every other kid. So let me tell you this story about this young woman who applied. She came from a school in like eastern Oregon and there were like eight kids in the school or something, and her avocation of choice was demolition derby. And I decided Princeton needs her, right? So isn't that a great, Princeton needs her. She gets to go to Princeton, Princeton needs her, right? So when I heard your story about that, I thought, you know, maybe he had one of these

• 30:53Jim Collins?

  moments, right? You know, this guy's different. Princeton needs Tim. But anyways, but here's the end of the story. I was thinking afterwards though, because it really went into my head about creations of things. And how, you know, you could look at it as that, well, if you're dean of admissions at Princeton, you could just take, you know, a whole bunch of the kids that look the best and throw a dart and you're going to have a really good class. You might not get the demolition derby, you might not get the Tim, right? But you'd have a really good class. And I thought, there's something artistic about that. And so I had this note to myself, send a letter to Dean Fred, send a letter to Dean

• 31:37Jim Collins?

  Fred, send a letter to him. And it was kind of sat there, you know, like these things like I should get around to doing. And so I decided to, I decided to send in this letter. In this letter, I wrote a little paragraph that essentially says as follows, and it just gets to the notion of exquisite, and then I want to put one coda on it.

• 32:01Jim Collins?

  Some would say that the dean of admissions at Stanford and Princeton cannot fail, given that the ratio of a talented applicant to seats. That may be true for creating a good class. It seems to me that a great undergraduate class requires the hand of a master sculptor. The details at the margins, the choices about what not to include, the stroke of genius to include something just off enough to be perfect, like a demolition derby player from a small town in eastern Oregon. If each class is a work of art, then you have sculpted a series of masterpieces.

• 32:44Jim Collins?

  And so I sent him this letter. And shortly after, this was 2008, shortly after, a few months later, I got a letter back from him. And I think this is something that I'm going to try to remember for the rest of my life. He has a very nice letter, very, very thoughtfully composed. He says this thing, he says, "You're taking the time to send such a thoughtful note happens to be a perfect example of what I had in mind at my baccalaureate address to the class of 2003. I encourage them not to underestimate the value of small gestures and provided examples from my own experience.

• 33:26Jim Collins?

  When asked to summarize my comments in a few words enough to be inscribed on a carved plaque for a new dorm classroom building dedicated last fall as Hargan Hall, I wrote, quote, 'The most treasured gifts in the world are kind words spontaneously tendered.'" And now, I mean, I'm sure many people have wonderful words to him. I'm not trying to take extra credit for words to him. But what if I'd never got around to sending the letter?

• 34:02Jim Collins?

  Before he passed away.

• 34:06Jim Collins?

  And I try to remember that because we have these people in our lives.

• 34:12Jim Collins?

  You know, and in a time like this, like, you know, that we're living through with the pandemic too. I mean, you never know when the people you might want to say something to

• 34:21Jim Collins?

  might disappear. Any number of things can happen. Accident, disease, life just expires. And I hope that I take in this idea that if you have it to say,

• 34:36Jim Collins?

  don't wait too long.

• 34:38Tim Ferriss?

  I second that. I have been personally too late in a number of cases and, you know, truthfully, passing the midpoint on average of lifespans on my paternal and maternal sides. So on the, on the, on the male side of the ledger, if we look at the average age of death across both sides in my family, it's 85. I turned 43. Last time I had a birthday and I was like, okay, I've passed the 50% point, assuming that we don't have some singularity that allows me to become a cyborg with immortality.

• 35:20Tim Ferriss?

  I've kind of passed the outer edge and I'm on the return path with the boomerang. So that reminder to me at least, that stark reminder of mortality led me just in the last, I would say three to five years, especially the last three years, to reach out to many of my mentors who are older. And that has been what has galvanized the rediscovery and the reaching out that you mentioned, having done yourself.

• 35:56Tim Ferriss?

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• 36:39Tim Ferriss?

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• 37:26Tim Ferriss?

  So I would like to ask you, because we're talking about influences and mentors, and we're going to spend quite a bit of time, I think, discussing this. I want to discuss father figures, but I want to do it in a somewhat roundabout fashion or an oblique fashion. And going back to our first conversation, and I have to, just as a slice of life for people listening, tell you, tell you, meaning the listeners and also you, Jim, why I love you so much, just as one example, and I'm going to read, since you read a paragraph, I'm going to read a paragraph which is from you. "For Tim, greetings from the creative Monk Mode Cave." This is a letter that I'm holding in front of me that I printed out.

• 38:10Tim Ferriss?

  "I'm really looking forward to our conversation. I went back to the transcript of our previous conversation and systematically analyzed it to cull out what we did not talk about. I thought that might help us to create a part two conversation that is distinct from our first." Here are some topics we did not discuss in our last conversation, or that we only briefly mentioned that might be possibilities to consider for this conversation. Most important, Tim, let's have fun. And you provided me with the most immaculate and diverse and tantalizing outline a producer could ever want. So, thank you first and foremost for that. And as luck would have it, I did a bit of prep myself also. And what I do at the end of my interviews, and I did this at the end of ours,

• 38:53Tim Ferriss?

  is I circled certain things we didn't get to, or notes I took with highlighter, and put "R2" next to them, which meant, in the case that we ever have a round two, these are some of the things I would like to explore. And from that first interview, there's a quote in the transcript, which is of course from spoken word, so it's not intended for publication. But here's the line, "And so I kind of decided I would create my own father by reading biographies of people I really looked up to." And so I'm wondering if there are any particular biographies that have impacted or influenced you along those lines

• 39:36Tim Ferriss?

  in seeking to create your own father by reading these biographies?

• 39:41Jim Collins?

  When I set out on that, that was, there were sort of two parts of creating my own father. One was biographies, and the other was mentors. And the biographies were relatively wide-ranging, and they kind of fall into both the memoir-autobiography category, and then the full biography by someone else category. And I'm still a voracious learner from biographies. I think the arc of entire lives is one of the greatest sources of wisdom, to really understand the arc of a life. And one of the things you find when you do that is that, I don't care how remarkable

• 40:23Jim Collins?

  the person is, they all have their mistakes, their setbacks, their wandering periods, their whatever, and it's kind of encouraging. This is going to sound like a strange one, but it had utterly profound impact on how I view the world. And that was, early on, one of the early ones I read was Winston Churchill's 4,996-page Memoirs of the Second World War.

• 40:49Jim Collins?

  And I read it, you know, all six volumes, including, I'll still never forget, you know, reading these tables, you know, shipping tonnage loss, North Sea, March 1942. I mean, you know, it's really detailed stuff, but you get a map and you follow the war. But here's the thing, you're going through the Second World War in Winston Churchill's head. There's no kind of better way of sort of thinking about what coming at the world is and crisis and leadership and everything else than just go through all those years in his head. And that was one that I still, I feel that it had massive shaping, impact on me. And then, of course, the later Churchill biographies by William Manchester, who I think

• 41:33Jim Collins?

  is one of the great biographers, The Last Lion, series one and series two. And then, of course, his, his own memoir, Goodbye Darkness, which had a real impact on me. It was where he turned his own lens upon himself, is one of the great biographers, and he said, what I'm going to do is, I'm going to unravel a mystery. And that mystery is why I, as a Marine, went back to my unit in Okinawa when I was already had a million dollar wound to go home and nearly get killed, and had this recurring nightmare of himself arguing with a younger self about this decision and trying to understand it. And he went back

• 42:15Jim Collins?

  and wrote a memoir of his years as a young Marine, a memoir of himself as a middle-aged man, going over the same terrain, right, and all the islands, and then the, the story of the Pacific War all wrapped into one. And it had a huge impact on me because it's really ultimately about love. And you do, whether one ever does anything heroic, it's, it's an act of love. But not all the biographies are ones that Sometimes what I would describe as negative and/or just instructive. So, for example, I think Robert Caro's work is extraordinary. I love his, I mean, I relate to his desire to spend months and months just immersed in

• 42:59Jim Collins?

  information and detail and getting everything and, you know, make sure you read all the files and so forth. I personally relate to that. But his book, The Power Broker, which I think you know.

• 43:09Tim Ferriss?

  I do.

• 43:10Jim Collins?

  I think is one of the great biographies. Now, what's great about it is that it shows actually the reverse. I mean, we're talking earlier about light force, dark force. I think his dark force motivations increased over time. And that old adage, you know, power corrupts from Lord Acton, right? Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And then I think the last part of that is, uh, very few great men are good men. What Caro does so unbelievably well in that is he takes one person and shows that happening.

• 43:42Tim Ferriss?

  Could you give a little more context on perhaps Robert Moses? Not that we have to go too deep into it, but just so people know who the subject is.

• 43:51Jim Collins?

  It's another one of those things where it's a, it's a, it's a book that somewhere along the way, it's really worth getting to. Because if I remember it right, it was quite a number of years ago when I read it. If I remember it right, the essence of it is you had this person who had a really peculiar genius. And his peculiar genius was the ability to find sources of power to be able to get things done that were often unseen by other people. And he started out as somebody who, in New York, who didn't have any obvious formalized sources of power. Then he went parks originally. And he ended up playing this massive role over the course of his life of the shaping of New York. And it's almost impossible to look at the way New York works without thinking about

• 44:32Jim Collins?

  the imprint of Robert Moses upon that, for, for better and worse. And how he got that done and how he got the beaches done when there were lots of powerful forces allied against. And his ability to find pockets and pools of power to be able to harness to get these things done without any formal power to do it. And then what Caro, if I recall correctly, does so, so well is he shows how it gradually grows from power to get things done.

• 45:04Jim Collins?

  To power because you can. And he does it in 1,200 pages or something. It's sort of a counter of like, it's really fascinating. Like you talk about a bug book. This was the ultimate bug book on, on power and Robert Moses. That your examples of what you don't want to be are also important in your biographies. His biography is Lyndon Johnson, extraordinary. The one that just still stuns me to this day, and actually a great takeaway from it, is Master of the Senate. You can watch Caro start off almost like, I don't like Johnson. And he sort of doesn't, but he grows to appreciate his skill. And when he becomes Master of the Senate, his ability to get things done, if politics

• 45:45Jim Collins?

  is the art of the possible, like this was Michelangelo at work. Whether you agreed or disagreed, his ability to do it. You know, and again, I always distrust my own memory, but if I got it right, right at the end of the book, as he's leaving the Senate to go become Vice President. Caro writes something along the lines of, he did not know it at the time. But in leaving the Senate, he was leaving the only home he ever really had. At least that's the way I remember it. And the takeaway I got from that was, never let your ambition confuse you about what you really are.

• 46:27Jim Collins?

  So he always wanted to be President. But what he was made for was Master of the Senate. And of course, as presidency ends, doesn't seek a second term. And so he achieved his ambition, but lost his home.

• 46:46Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm, yeah, I think that's easy to do.

• 46:50Jim Collins?

  We could have the Tim and Jim conversation for biography after biography.

• 46:56Tim Ferriss?

  Well, maybe that's, maybe that's the easy way for you to do a podcast. You just have the Tim and Jim, Tim and Jim hour.

• 47:03Tim Ferriss?

  Now, I know you are a fan, if, if I'm getting my homework done properly, of Ron Chernow's biography of George Washington.

• 47:10Jim Collins?

  Yes.

• 47:11Tim Ferriss?

  And George Washington is fascinating on so many levels, you know, in part because he has this Cincinnatus-like quality of being the reluctant ideal leader, right? The perfect candidate is very seldom the one who wants to run for office. And so I know you've publicly discussed the impact of that biography and, and you brought it up of your own volition. I was going to lead from that to the question of

• 47:39Tim Ferriss?

  what you can learn from not the Jedi, not the white knights of the leadership canon, so to speak, but from the Sith Lords. Those who have, not to push the Sith use too far, but who are masters of power, but with some shadow elements. And I'd be very curious to know, we, we spoke of, of one, Robert Moses, who also is portrayed, I think, very well in the film adaptation of Motherless Brooklyn by Edward Norton, played by Alec Baldwin. Robert Moses was perfectly cast. What are some of the lessons that you have been able to retain from some of these darker

• 48:25Tim Ferriss?

  leadership icons or icons of power? And have you been able to use or absorb these things without being infected by some of the other components of their personas? Because it's, strikes me as very difficult to emulate only a tiny percentage of someone, if you're not careful, at least.

• 48:48Jim Collins?

  You know, it's an interesting question because it is interesting how I went to Moses and to the Johnson biographies, the Carol books. Because they, they really do, they are.

• 49:00Jim Collins?

  There are things there that's like, hmm, not sure I would want to be. And as you know, I'm a big consumer of this thing called The Great Courses Series, where you basically go out and they found the best university professors for the quality of their teaching. Like, I'm doing a whole course right now on how the brain works, right? And the professor is from Vanderbilt. She's wonderful. Just her sheer joy. And this is how light comes in and actually your brain then creates an image. And isn't that wonderful? It just leaves you with this incredible sense of awe and how everything works. There was a course on philosophy, and I feel bad that I don't remember the name of the professor. It probably might come to me towards the end of our conversation, but it's called, I think it's called Question of Value or Question of Values.

• 49:45Jim Collins?

  And in that course, the professor makes this wonderful distinction. Says, you know, you might want to think about whether you want a life to envy or a life to admire.

• 49:56Tim Ferriss?

  Well, that's great.

• 49:57Jim Collins?

  Isn't that? So you take Lincoln. It is not a life to envy. You know, he struggled with depression. He had a tumultuous set of relationships. He had personal tragedies in his life. And then the hand he gets dealt as president, too. I mean, imagine sitting there, getting the battle reports from Antietam. I mean, and then he finally gets through it and then he gets his life taken away. I mean, it's not a life you would choose, but it's absolutely a life to admire.

• 50:27Tim Ferriss?

  Is it Professor Patrick Grimm?

• 50:29Jim Collins?

  That might be it. Yeah, that might be it. Yeah. It's called Question or Questions of Values.

• 50:34Tim Ferriss?

  Questions of Value.

• 50:35Jim Collins?

  Yeah. And I was so struck, and I think what I'm really interested in is the people who maybe ultimately they transition. They don't become one or the other. They grow over the course of their lives. And I'm almost more interested in the growth cases than in kind of the static cases. And what's fascinating with Moses is he sort of grew in the other direction, but kind of the arc of change of people's lives, I find it really, really interesting. And even Washington's an example of that. Early in Washington's Chernow, by the way, have you had Chernow on?

• 51:16Tim Ferriss?

  I have not, not yet.

• 51:17Jim Collins?

  That'd be wonderful. Chernow would be able to speak to this far better than I could, but early in Washington's life, very, very, you know, really just incredibly ambitious, right? And he has some setbacks. And then you see over the course of his life, how his ambition gets increasingly channeled out then into the intersection of history, and how that intersection of history then brings further a sense of almost historical service out of him. But the Washington of his later years is a much more evolved Washington than the Washington of early years. And I think that's what's interesting. Because I think this question of we're not fixed, we're not static, right? There isn't,

• 52:02Jim Collins?

  you know, we may chat a little bit later about there wasn't Steve Jobs. There's Steve Jobs 1.0 and Steve Jobs 2.0, right? I mean, it's the arc, it's the growth. That's what's interesting to me.

• 52:13Tim Ferriss?

  Well, let me give you just a map of the territory, actually, just leading to the horizon. I like to give people an idea of what's coming. So we are going to talk, not just about books, but we're going to talk about mentors, since that was the second component that you mentioned. And we're going to talk about Bill Lazzier specifically. But before we get to Bill Lazzier, because you brought up questions of value, I would like to ask you a question about questions. Because I think many people consider you a provider of answers. I would agree with that to some extent, but I view you more as a craftsman of questions. And the description of questions of value, just as a leaping

• 52:57Tim Ferriss?

  off point, is a course for anyone who has ever felt the tug of such questions, or who wants to fine tune their ability to see how deeper questions of ethics and values apply to the choices that make up their lives. Okay. So let's take that and jump to a New York Times piece about you, which was published in 2009, and I'm going to read this paragraph. "Mr. Collins also is quite practiced at saying no. Requests pour in every week for him to give speeches to corporations and trade associations. It could be a bustling sideline, given that he commands a top-tier fee of $65,000 to dispense his wisdom. Side note from Tim, I would say at this point in time, I wouldn't be surprised if it were twice that amount." Back to the New York Times paragraph. "But he will give only 18 speeches this year, and about a third of them will be pro bono for nonprofit groups.

• 53:41Tim Ferriss?

  Companies also ask him to consult, but he mostly declines, agreeing only if a company intrigues him and if its executives come to Boulder to meet him. Over two half-day sessions, for $60,000, he will ask pointed questions and provide very few answers. Quote, 'I am completely Socratic,' he said, 'and I challenge and push. They come up with their own answers. I couldn't come up with people's answers. Book tours, no. Splurging with the millions he's earned from his books, no, too.'" The part that I underlined was the "over two half-day sessions, he will ask pointed questions and provide very few answers." What types of questions, or could you give any examples of questions that you have found over the years of experimentation and refinement to really more than pull their weight?

• 54:26Tim Ferriss?

  And as a side note, I will say, I know some people who have flown out with their leadership teams to meet with you, and two, three years later, they're still talking about some of these conversations. So could you give any examples of questions that you like to use?

• 54:41Jim Collins?

  Yeah. So first of all, I'm so pleased that you see me as more about the questions than about the answers. And I really, I genuinely just deeply thrive on questions. That's why I think, again, so to go back to that course, I didn't really take away, like, these are the answers on value. I took away a question. Let me just describe a little bit how I prepare for really anything, but particularly prepare for a Socratic lab.

• 55:21Jim Collins?

  And first of all, it starts with probably something very similar to what you do because you're Socratic, is you kind of have this big funnel of trying to gain understanding before you even enter a conversation. You read, you learn, you try to get your thoughts around what are the really critical things. And then the next thing is to start asking the question, what are the questions? And if you can identify the questions, and I think of the questions, I think of it this way, I think of it as like preparing for if I were an NFL coach. And you are going to go into the game with a game plan, you've prepared really well, you're going in with a game plan.

• 56:05Jim Collins?

  And when you get the ball, you're going to know your first few plays in all likelihood, unless something weird happened early. And so I'll come in with some questions that I know, a little bit like Green Bay Packers always had their first set of plays and you always knew what they were, then the game would unfold. And so you have to be really clear, what are the two or three really essential things that if they don't walk away having wrestled with this, I have failed them? Not, these are the things I need to tell them, these are the three things they gotta really wrestle with. And your task is to get to those. Now you walk in, but then it's like the game starts.

• 56:46Jim Collins?

  And what you have to do is, okay, we were planning on, you know, throwing long on third down, but their defense isn't allowing for that, they're leaving the whole middle open, so we're going to run drop plays, right? And so you prepare obsessively, but then you have your questions or your plays. And so I have opening questions. And the first one is always the same for inside organization, one at least historically has been, you know, it's not a core value, this could change, but it works like this. You got to picture, everybody's in the room. They've done homework ahead of time, they've had to answer a bunch of questions ahead of time, which I've digested all their answers.

• 57:26Jim Collins?

  I walk into the room, I'm in that room right now. We set up in COVID time to use that room as kind of our little studio here. The table we had custom made just for this room. It's a totally secure room. There's no, if you look at the four walls on either side, there's no way that information could escape into the outside world. But for some people, we've had people send security sweeps and things like that. I mean, it's very important that things remain, in some cases, very confidential. And then the session started at 8:00 a.m. Now, there's a rule with that. 8:00 a.m. doesn't mean 8:00 in 4 seconds. 8:00 a.m. is 8:00, because you have to set the tone. Bang, we are going to engage here.

• 58:10Jim Collins?

  Now, people have often wondered, why do I require people to come to Boulder? Very simple. It's not because I don't like to travel, although I don't. It's when you're dealing with people who can buy anything, and you want to have an impact on them with the limited number of chances that, you know, maybe they'll only be able to come once, or you might only have them come once. What's the one thing they can't get more of? Their time.

• 58:39Tim Ferriss?

  Time.

• 58:41Jim Collins?

  So by requiring that they all have to come here, and they're in this space, in these rules, I've set the conditions for full commitment, right? So those people still talking about it years later, it isn't just because I ask good questions. It's in part because the conditions were created of, you have to make a commitment to come. You have to make a commitment to be really present when it happens. I wait until exactly 8 o'clock. And on day one, I walk in the room at 8:00. And I go to my chair, and I say, "Good morning." Take out a blank sheet of paper. It's not like, "How was your flight?

• 59:26Jim Collins?

  What do you think of Boulder? Hope you had a good meal last night." Good morning. Take out a blank sheet of paper. We have, I feel tremendous responsibility. We have a lot to do. Write down the top 5 brutal facts that you face today.

• 59:45Jim Collins?

  Okay, we are now at eight o'clock and, what, 12 seconds? And there, quiet, blank sheet of paper, brutal facts, right out of the front. And one thing that I have found is that if you start there, and then, that's the very beginning, they go, "sheet of paper, brutal facts," then we have six corners in the room, six-cornered room, and there's a random process by which then they're put into small, and then they have to come back to the large table, and I'll randomly pick someone, and I say, "Okay, what are the top five brutal facts that you face?" And then each of those becomes something to start pulling on. Why is that a brutal fact? Is that really a fact?

• 1:00:28Jim Collins?

  There's a rule: no opinions allowed, facts only. You can't say, "I think we're growing too fast." That's an opinion. Facts, facts, facts. And if you begin right at the start, the conversation gets very rich very quickly, because everybody knows what those facts are. But you put them on the table that quickly, you are already setting the conditions for tremendous momentum.

• 1:00:56Tim Ferriss?

  The setting of conditions.

• 1:00:58Jim Collins?

  Yep.

• 1:00:59Tim Ferriss?

  How underestimated.

• 1:01:00Jim Collins?

  Yeah, and then from there, you have a number of them. We do a lot with, you know, sometimes it's the flywheel, sometimes it's the hedgehog, almost always something on people, and what makes for the right people. There's almost always something on danger signs. I really like to ask people to take the five stages of decline from How the Mighty Fall and self-diagnose, where are we vulnerable here? And why? And what would we need to be worried about? And those sorts of things, and zooming out 20 years, and those types of things. But, once you get into it, then, there's no script that is the same for everyone at that point. It's all very conditional upon who they are, but it's always going back to the principles from our research.

• 1:01:42Tim Ferriss?

  Well, people go to Boulder to learn, to be interrogated.

• 1:01:49Jim Collins?

  Challenged, I think, is the...

• 1:01:53Tim Ferriss?

  Challenged, challenged, challenged. Let's introduce Bill Azier. Who is Bill Azier? Why is he worth having a conversation about?

• 1:02:02Jim Collins?

  So, the spark for us doing this, again, is I'm re-releasing this...

• 1:02:08Jim Collins?

  My very, very first book was called Beyond Entrepreneurship. Bringing it out is Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0 with some upgraded material in it, new chapters and so forth. But a big part of the reason is because I wanted to honor and extend the legacy of my co-author on that book, Bill Lysier. And first, sort of how that intersects. Bill passed away in 2004. And when I was in the memorial service, I think there was about 1,000 people there, but I just had this overwhelming need to write something about Bill. And I thought, well, I could write an obit, I could write an article, I could write something for the alumni group.

• 1:02:53Jim Collins?

  And then Joanne, as is often the case in my life, had this really great idea. She said, why don't you create something permanent? Which would be to take this book, that was your first book, that you and Bill did together, and bring it back to the world, but really shining a light on Bill and what he did to change your life and the role he played, and what a great mentor is all about. And then it's by Bill and Jim, and it brings him out permanently and I can share him with the world. And so, that's kind of the impetus of all of this. And just something that was very meaningful to me, I got my first copies the last week? It was either the last week or the week before.

• 1:03:38Jim Collins?

  Copy 001 went to Bill's widow, Dorothy. And I sort of like, no matter whatever happens from here, like, that's it. Everything else from here is gravy. So, Bill.

• 1:03:52Tim Ferriss?

  Why was he, yeah, why was he such an important, or perhaps arguably, the greatest mentor?

• 1:03:57Jim Collins?

  He was greatest mentor in my life. I think the best way is to just tell a story. We talked earlier about this notion of dark force and light force motivations and so forth. And I met Bill when I was, I think I was just on the verge of turning 25.

• 1:04:18Jim Collins?

  And it was complete luck. In the last episode you and I did together, we talked about who luck a lot. The who luck of Peter Drucker, the who luck of four days to marriage with Joanne, or to engagement with Joanne, and here we are 40 years later, and so forth. But this was like luck in a real sense. I had wanted to be in a different section of a course. And it so happened that I didn't get into that one, and I got assigned to a different course, and there was an unknown, first-time teacher of that course named Lazir. And I said, "Anybody know anything about this guy Lazir?" Nobody knew. And so I just went, and I figured I would just find out what he was like, or what the course is about.

• 1:05:01Jim Collins?

  And that sort of chance interaction led to Bill somehow taking an interest in me. And the image I have is that I was like this propulsion machine, this driven, creative, energetic propulsion machine, but I had no direction to it, if you will. And Bill took this interest in me, and he started inviting Joanne and me over to his house. Now, he'd been a very successful, he was an accountant, then a very successful entrepreneur, and in his 50s, he returned to Stanford to really begin teaching, kind of a renewal phase in his life. And I became like this project for him.

• 1:05:44Jim Collins?

  And he just kept working on me. Just he would ask questions, and he was never judgmental. He was just believing and supportive, but the key was, he believed in me. He just believed in me. And then, when I was 30, I think I just turned 30, or was there about, there was this moment when all of a sudden, kind of like the Ed Shouse story you were describing earlier, where there was this unexpected vacancy in the Entrepreneurship and Small Business Course at the Stanford Business School. Bill taught one of the other sections, which was the course I had taken from him years

• 1:06:21Jim Collins?

  before, and the deans needed somebody to fill in for this other professor who was a star professor. And Bill went to the deans and suggested me.

• 1:06:36Jim Collins?

  And then put himself on the line. I mean, he put his sense of his own reputation on the line. He said, "I'll try to make sure he doesn't mess up too badly." And because of the clock, I think, more than anything else, the deans let this happen. And then Bill, essentially, kind of got me to see that this, it's like that thing in Hamilton, you know, "Don't throw away your shot." This is the shot. And the idea being, the image I've always had in my head is, imagine you're a pitcher way down in the minor leagues, and you happen to be in Yankee Stadium, and for whatever

• 1:07:17Jim Collins?

  reason, all the pitchers on a bus don't make it to Yankee Stadium, and the game's about to start, and somebody says, "Why don't you go out there? Somebody's got to pitch. You just grab a glove, go out there and pitch." And Bill's message was, "There come these times in life, while not all time in life is equal. And the quality of your performance in that moment will have outsized effect on the rest of your life. If you throw a perfect game, you'll get to throw again. So go throw." And that was the start of everything. And had I not had Bill's class, had I not had Bill believing in me, and then from there till the end of his life, shaping me, guiding

• 1:08:02Jim Collins?

  me, challenging me, modeling for me, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation. "Good to Great" wouldn't exist, "Built to Last" wouldn't exist, "How the Mighty Fall" wouldn't exist, "Beyond Entrepreneurship" wouldn't exist, "Great by Choice" wouldn't exist, none of that would have happened. I have some thoughts about what I might have ended up doing, but this is a whole lot better. And that was Bill. And it was his caring and investment. This is what I think made him such a great mentor. He so believed in me that it created a sense of responsibility to him, to that standard. You don't want to fail that. You don't want to let that down.

• 1:08:46Jim Collins?

  That it acted like a magnet and it just pulled me up.

• 1:08:50Tim Ferriss?

  What are some of the life lessons that you gained from Bill and that have remained highly important to you?

• 1:08:57Jim Collins?

  So I put some of these in, in the book.

• 1:08:59Tim Ferriss?

  In the notes?

• 1:09:00Jim Collins?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:00Tim Ferriss?

  And in the book?

• 1:09:01Jim Collins?

  Yeah, exactly, because I got this whole chapter on sort of the lessons I want to share with the world from Bill. And I could pick any number of them. Maybe we'll pick one or two. Is there anything that jumped you?

• 1:09:10Tim Ferriss?

  I can pick one, just because I'd left some, some clarity on it. So I'll, I'll give people just a teaser of a few. Never stifle a generous impulse. Great life, comma, great relationships. Trust wager, which is the one I, I would love to hear you expand on. Values is the hard stuff. And then put the butter on your waffles, which I also love. But maybe you could expand on, just since I'm following my own curiosity here, trust wager.

• 1:09:34Jim Collins?

  Yeah. And then, and then maybe a little bit on butter in the waffles, because I think it, it's something that you may, may relate to. But the, even though I think you're probably more fanatic about diet than I am. But anyways, Steve.

• 1:09:49Tim Ferriss?

  I'm more fanatic about consuming copious amounts of butter than just about anything. So this is, this is in my strike zone.

• 1:09:56Jim Collins?

  Yeah. So, so the trust wager, after I had left Stanford and in the, in the previous episode, we talked about that, what Joanna and I called our Thelma and Louise moment of launching out over the chasm and betting on, on my own entrepreneurial path to try to be an entrepreneurial professor rather than a professor of entrepreneurship. And when I left the very protective walls of where I was, I started hitting other sorts of experiences, including, and I won't go into specifically who and what they were, but situations where people I trusted had abused my trust. And it really stung. I hadn't really experienced that in life before and just realizing, you know, not,

• 1:10:40Jim Collins?

  not everybody is trustworthy and some people are really not trustworthy. And so I went to Bill and I said, Bill, have people ever abused your trust? And how do you deal with this? And he said, yeah, they have. But this is one of the big decisions you have to make in life. You have to decide as a basic stance, are you, is your opening basic assumption about people that they are trustworthy?

• 1:11:08Jim Collins?

  You always start there. Your opening bid is trust and trusting them, always. And they can lose that trust if there's incontrovertible evidence that they have abused your trust. But you always have to be clear, never attribute to malice what could simply be explained by incompetence. And the other path is to start with, "You have to earn my trust." "I'm not necessarily going to trust you, but through evidence and experience, you'll earn your trust." He said, "This is one of those big choices in life, just a basic stance. What is your stance?" And I said, "Well, you seem to trust people."

• 1:11:53Jim Collins?

  He said, "Yes, that's my bid." I said, "Well, but how do you deal with the fact that people are not always trustworthy?" And he said, "Well, so long as you don't leave yourself open to catastrophic loss." And he was always very clear, "Always pay attention to the cash flow." And he described a situation where he'd lost enough money from somebody he trusted that it hurt, right? Didn't crush him, but it hurt. And he said, "But I still come back to, I would rather live with that." I said, "Well, help me understand, though, the pain you have to deal with that and the fact that people are not always trustworthy." And he said, "Look, Jim, think of it as upside and downside. Here's the wager.

• 1:12:35Jim Collins?

  You know, what's the upside? If you, to taking the bid of mistrust? Well, you'll maybe prevent yourself from having one of those hurtful experiences. And what's the downside? The downside is trustworthy people, you will lose them. And the upside to trusting people is when you find the trustworthy people, they will rise to it." And he said, "This was the critical thing he said to me. He said, "Have you ever considered the possibility, Jim, that not everybody is one or the other? But because you trust them at the outset..."

• 1:13:16Jim Collins?

  They are more likely to become trustworthy because you trust them.

• 1:13:25Jim Collins?

  And ever since then, that I try to live to that, the idea that that's the opening bid. And just make sure you protect your flank so it can't be catastrophic. But that was Bill, hard headed, realistic, but you always start with the opening bid of trust.

• 1:13:43Tim Ferriss?

  Were there any footnotes on that trust? And I guess I would love an example of what trust means in this context, if that if that makes sense. Because, you know, the expression that comes to mind is trust but verify, right? So if I get an email that says, I am the widow of a Nigerian prince. And can you please wire $10 million to this following bank account? And here's how we'll split the $100 million proceeds. I assume that he does not mean you wire the 10 million in a circumstance like that. Right, that would be an extreme example. But you, much like, and we may get to this a bit later also. But I've read of how you think about luck as asymmetric, as a causal force, right?

• 1:14:27Tim Ferriss?

  So bad luck can kill you, but good luck cannot make you great. It may be necessary in some circumstances, but not sufficient. Similarly, there are certain downsides that are survivable. There are certain downside risks that are easily manageable. And then there are sort of existential or catastrophic downside risks. So how did he trust from an informed or a smart place as opposed to a reckless place? Does that make sense?

• 1:14:56Jim Collins?

  Well, when it came to business dealings, Bill always, I guess I did sort of describe it. And if I understand this one situation that he referred to. He always had a good awareness of the cash flow in his environment. Like, he was just fanatic about always understand your cash flow. Very practical person on that. I remember one day, he was teaching a class on, it was for the entrepreneurship and small business, and he was pushing the students on what are the really key issues in the case, and they're all going off of that, you know, our strategic positioning, and, you know, where, yeah, sort of market share growth and whatever. And finally, Bill just sort of walks over to the whiteboard and puts in about four-foot-high

• 1:15:40Jim Collins?

  letters with the side of the chalk, all the way across the board, one giant word, cash. And, and he always tried, particularly for people who come from an earnings world, you don't pay your bills with earnings. I mean, you pay your bills with cash. And so, Bill's practice always was to be very aware of where the flanks were and to ensure that he would never leave himself exposed to, say, having something where he would wake up and find that, you know, something had been taken that left you completely crushed, if you will, completely embezzled, or anything like that, right? He was aware of the cash flow. But when you bring somebody in, do you not trust that they're going to do a great job?

• 1:16:24Jim Collins?

  Do you not trust that they're going to steward the resources of the company as if they owned it? Or are you going to basically trust that they will? He basically would always just start with, "I trust you. I trust you." And the idea of like locking a supply cabinet or anything like that, just, "I trust you." You could lose that trust, but it's just know where the flanks are. And we'll probably get to that when we get to the lock part, because I think that has a lot to do with this sort of notion of managing what's catastrophic versus managing what's not. And in the end, here's the key thing. Bill was all about relationships. And Bill believed that the only way to have a great life, there's two approaches to life.

• 1:17:07Jim Collins?

  To seek transactions and see life as a series of transactions, or to take life as building relationships. And the only way to have a great life, in Bill's view, was relationships. And the cornerstone of relationships is trust.

• 1:17:26Tim Ferriss?

  And then you can put butter on your waffles together presumably?

• 1:17:29Jim Collins?

  Okay, so let's talk about butter on the waffles.

• 1:17:31Tim Ferriss?

  I've been thinking about eating waffles ever since you mentioned it.

• 1:17:34Jim Collins?

  Yeah, so butter on the waffles is something that this is still something I really struggle with, but I learned from Bill. We were working on Beyond Entrepreneurship. I didn't know what I was doing as a writer, and I'm sure back when you were writing your first book, there's this incredible sense of inadequacy, right?

• 1:17:51Tim Ferriss?

  Does that ever go away?

• 1:17:52Jim Collins?

  No, it doesn't go away.

• 1:17:55Jim Collins?

  What I've actually learned is that writing is like running. If you're going to run your best, let's say you can run a six-minute mile, and then now you're a better runner and you can run a five-minute mile. If you're gonna run your best, whatever your PR is, it is always going to hurt. Writing never gets easier. You only get better.

• 1:18:22Jim Collins?

  So I was going through, I was running maybe nine-minute miles. I was throwing all kinds of stuff in the wastebasket. I felt completely overwhelmed. I truly felt inadequate, and I was suffering. And so I go to Bill, and we're working on this together, and I'm doing most of the, trying to get the text working, and I sit down with Bill, and he can tell I'm just sort of really suffering. And I described to him how I'd spent the entire day the day before, and it's all in the wastebasket. Wine, wine, wine. And I expected Bill to give me this, maybe this lecture on, you know, this is the time to push through, and you know, you have to, sometimes you have to double down. It's like the last six miles of the marathon, you're only at halfway at mile 20 in the last six,

• 1:19:04Jim Collins?

  or where everything happens, and that's when you really have to grit it out. And that's what I expected to hear, and instead what I got was a lecture on fun.

• 1:19:14Jim Collins?

  And Bill says to me, he says, "Okay, so if you're not having fun, and we're not having fun doing this, we should just stop." And he said, "If we can't find a way to make this fun,

• 1:19:28Jim Collins?

  we shouldn't be doing this."

• 1:19:32Jim Collins?

  So the day after we turned in the manuscript,

• 1:19:37Jim Collins?

  Bill had a heart attack, and he had a quintuple bypass surgery.

• 1:19:44Jim Collins?

  And we used to have these waffle fests at the Peninsula Creamery. And we would, we would meet there on Saturday mornings and we would have waffles. And a few weeks or months, I can't remember the exact time length, we're having one of our waffle fests after Bill had, had his heart attack. We sit down and just like before, he pulls out all this butter and starts putting butter on his waffles and putting syrup all over the, the butter and is creating, you know, that marvelous mixture of like syrup and butter, creating that marvelous mixture of, of yum stuff on your waffles. I said, "Bill, Bill, what are you doing? You had a quintuple bypass surgery, you were putting all this butter on your waffles."

• 1:20:26Jim Collins?

  And Bill just continued to pour the butter on his waffles. And then he, he looked up at me and he had this most marvelous expression. It was like that, it was sort of a smile, but it was this, it's hard to explain what it is. It reminds me of that line in Seneca's, right, on The Shortness of Life, you know, "There's a wise, there's a wise person who knows how to meet death with a firm step." And, and Bill told me this story of going into the operating room. He said, "I bet they saw a smile on my face." Because I'm going into the operating room and I all of a sudden knew, I mean, I knew

• 1:21:04Jim Collins?

  without question that if this was the end, I'm okay with that. Dorothy and I have had a great run. I have lived my life the way I wanted to live it. I have so many people in my life who I have loved and I love. I have already had a great life. And nothing can take that away.

• 1:21:37Jim Collins?

  And so I decided, coming out of it, everything from here is gravy and I'm gonna lead my life and I'm putting the butter on my waffles. Bill never confused a long life with a great life. And he died a number of years after that, not that many years after that, maybe a decade, uh, must have been, maybe 12 years later. He woke up and was walking across the room and he fell dead of congestive heart failure.

• 1:22:09Jim Collins?

  And Dorothy later told me that he had a smile on his face. And when I was in the Stanford Chapel, I saw all these people in there. I cried. And it was such a different crying, because when my dad died, uh, I cried for what I never had.

• 1:22:33Jim Collins?

  When Bill died, I cried for what I had lost.

• 1:22:39Jim Collins?

  And then I look out in that Stanford Chapel, and I see all these people in there. And I realize, I'm not the only person whose life he had altered. There are hundreds of them. And I had this image of them as like vectors going out in time and space.

• 1:23:03Jim Collins?

  And that if you can affect the trajectory of a vector, even a few degrees when they're relatively young, it's a huge sweep as their life unfolds. And imagine you did that for not just one vector, not just one Jim Collins, but a whole bunch of other people. And you have hundreds of those vectors going out into time and space. Then you've lived a really great life.

• 1:23:32Jim Collins?

  And you had butter on your waffles. And so, you know, it's interesting, you'll notice I put here, "Most important, Tim, let's have fun," on my memo to you. I am really trying, this is for me the hardest of the lessons I learned from Bill, just putting a premium on, if it's, you can't find a way to make it fun, you shouldn't do it.

• 1:23:58Tim Ferriss?

  Let's see, it seems like Bill was not only having fun, he was fulfilled. And, you know, fun, at least temporarily, can be bought with a bottle of wine, but fulfillment, not quite as transactionally available. And I'm gonna jump around here just a little bit, but this is the next topic that popped to mind for me, which is related to this. And that's contrasting your time with West Point cadets, having spent time at the United States Military Academy at West Point, with your time with MBA students at Stanford,

• 1:24:38Tim Ferriss?

  because it seems that the cadets seemed happier. And I would like to know, in your mind, why you think that is, maybe perhaps what you know to be true about what separates those two groups. Because you, I think in the minds of many, are a, you are a researcher and a student of success, but you and I can both point out examples of people who are extolled or put on a pedestal as these pinnacles of success, and yet they have these pyrrhic victories. They go home, they have terrible relationships with their kids, with their

• 1:25:18Tim Ferriss?

  spouses, etc. So this is deeply interesting to me, the contrast, cadets versus MBA students.

• 1:25:25Jim Collins?

  So back in 2012 and 2013, I had this real honor to serve, a two-year appointment as the Class of 1951 Chair for the Study of Leadership at the United States Military Academy at West Point. And first of all, just personally, it was an incredible experience to go and be invited in, and especially in a special role like that, to really get a feel for how does a place like West Point, one of the great leadership development institutions in the world, probably in history. Do its thing with young people who come in and what's their approach to things. And it had a profound impact on me in many ways.

• 1:26:10Jim Collins?

  And I went there theoretically to teach something to the cadets, but really I ended up, as is often the case, being a student. And I used to have these marvelous dinners where I had this big round table and I would invite about 12 cadets and you just start off with a simple question, beginning to ask them questions about their lives, but how did you end up here? Where did you grow up? Why did you choose this versus something else? And just getting to know each cadet and why they would choose this path. Marvelous journey. Well, anyways, the more I got to know the cadets and the more I engaged with them, the more I was struck at, by and large, how happy they seemed.

• 1:26:51Jim Collins?

  Now, you've got to try to understand what life as a West Point cadet is like. I didn't go to West Point. I went and studied math on the West Coast. They have not just their hefty academic load. You've got history and philosophy and engineering and all of these things. You also have your leadership training, you have your physical training, you have your military training, and you don't have a whole lot of free time. This is an intense place. And I'm finding myself thinking, what is it? And there's this sense of them being on the balls of their feet and this sense of energy. And I'll never forget when I had the joy, that's the only word I can use, the sheer joy of being able to close out my session with the West Point cadets with a one-hour

• 1:27:36Jim Collins?

  presentation to 5,000 cadets, all in their camos, in Eisenhower Hall for an hour. And at the end of it, the eruption, the roar from them that just sort of conveyed the sense of sharing joy, if you will. I was like, wow, this is really an interesting place. The energy, wow, if you could just bottle that, what is that? How does that happen? What's working here? And so I puzzled a lot because what's really struck me is they did seem happier. If I can't measure that, I can't prove that they're happier, but they sure felt happier to me than my Stanford students when I taught in the business school. And so I came away with a couple of key thoughts, maybe three, that go together.

• 1:28:25Jim Collins?

  The first begins with, I'll just have to lead into with a little bit of a story.

• 1:28:31Jim Collins?

  I always like to do something physically demanding or challenging in some form for my fives. So for my 55th birthday, which was when I was there, I decided that I wanted to do this thing called the IOCT, the Indoor Obstacle Course Test. Because I kept asking the cadets, "What's hard about being here?" And they kept talking about this thing called the IOCT. "Well, what's the IOCT?" "Sir, you don't want to know." "We all hate the IOCT." "Well, what is it?" "It's the Indoor Obstacle Course Test." And it's this place called Haze Gym. And the idea being that you have to leap over things and mantle up on a shelf and go across these sideways bars and cross a balance beam and over walls and hand over hand across

• 1:29:13Jim Collins?

  bars and then up a rope and then run around the track with a medicine ball. But here's the key, there's a graduation time. You actually have to hit a time. And I said, "Well, I think I'm going to try to do the IOCT in 22-year-old cadet graduation times at 55-year-old." And I was having trouble with this because it was actually quite hard. It's not a good idea, by the way. And I was over there training. And the cadets were wonderful because they'd be coming along. They'd say, "Sir, don't do it like that. You look like an old man, sir." I'm like, "Well, I am an old man." So anyways, I'm working on the IOCT. And I'm training and one day and all of a sudden I stand back and I look around. And I notice something.

• 1:29:54Jim Collins?

  There are groups of cadets who clearly are not having any trouble accomplishing the IOCT. They'll hit their time easy. Who are in there taking time out of a life where they don't have extra time

• 1:30:10Jim Collins?

  to help their classmates who are struggling with the IOCT, to ensure that they get through. And all of a sudden, it just, part of me realized, what's happening here? Is the entire culture is built on the idea that you are not alone?

• 1:30:32Jim Collins?

  And that your response to "this sucks" is "how can I help you?" And the idea being that you... The thing you have to learn is we will take care of each other. And I began to think about this notion of success is communal. It's never alone. It's never solo. And there are people there that are going to help you. And then your responsibility is to help someone else. If you have trouble with the IOCT and somebody helps you, but you might be good at math and you're going to help them. And that was very different than what I saw in other environments. It's very different from what I see often in corporate America. And if you could grab that idea that you are never alone

• 1:31:16Jim Collins?

  and your first responsibility is to help someone else versus advance yourself.

• 1:31:23Jim Collins?

  And you make that systemic, built-in, cultural.

• 1:31:28Jim Collins?

  The other part is the ethic of service. And we talk a lot about service and kids should do things for services. There's another thing when every kid that's there knows

• 1:31:45Jim Collins?

  that either they, or somebody close to them, or somebody in their unit, may well die in the rendering of that service.

• 1:31:58Jim Collins?

  And that creates a context of meaning that is, I think, very hard to find other places. So you have the service, what you are in service to, what you are willing to sacrifice for, what you might even die for, and those around you. And take care of each other and the acts of love. That is, I think, a very special and very powerful concoction. And I think it explains a lot of why, at least, I don't know if it was happier, more meaningful, more, but it was this extra X factor that is palpable.

• 1:32:40Tim Ferriss?

  So I want to make a military leap to, and I am making a bit of a guess, but I think I am, I think I may be right here. So after 30 years of work and research, you have a single map of concepts and a framework now. And if you die tomorrow, that is what you would want people to have and follow. One of the bullets in this consolidated map of concepts is the Stockdale paradox. Is this Stockdale, the POW?

• 1:33:19Jim Collins?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:19Tim Ferriss?

  Or is this a different Stockdale? Could you, we don't have to necessarily start with Stockdale, but because you mentioned Seneca earlier, my stoic reading and leanings, fascinated by, by Stockdale. So let's approach this any way you like. We could dive into Stockdale paradox, or we could begin just by taking a step back and looking at the macro of, of what is meant by having a single map of concepts after 30 years of work and research.

• 1:33:47Jim Collins?

  So here's what I'd love to do with that, Tim, is I actually would love to pick up on just the previous part of our conversation and go into Stockdale. It's one of the key principles in the map. And I feel in today's world, by the time people hear this, we're really in a Stockdale moment. And so I would love for people to hear from me the Stockdale paradox, if that's all right with you. It involves-

• 1:34:10Tim Ferriss?

  Let's do it.

• 1:34:11Jim Collins?

  The story, yeah. So for people who don't know, Admiral Jim Stockdale was the highest ranking naval officer, military officer in the Hanoi Hilton prisoner of war camp in North Vietnam. He was shot down in the late 1960s and he spent seven years in the camp.

• 1:34:29Jim Collins?

  And I had the great privilege to be able to get to know Admiral Stockdale a bit when he was studying Stoic philosophy across the street at the Hoover Institute when I was teaching my small business and entrepreneurship class over at the Stanford Business School. And in preparation for this walk across campus and lunch that we were going to have, I sat down and read his book, In Love and War, which is written in alternating chapters by himself and his wife about his years in the camp. And now I want you to picture, I'm sitting there in a really nicely paneled, warm Stanford faculty office, looking out at the fog kind of coming in over the hills, and it's this

• 1:35:14Jim Collins?

  beautiful setting, and I'm comfortable, I'm safe, I'm reading a book, and I found myself starting to feel the sense of despair and feeling depression. Because as I read the book, I really began to realize the bleakness of the situation, but what really struck me about it is not only could they pull him out and torture him at any time, and they did, that they could keep him in leg irons for extended periods of time, and they did, right? What really struck me was the sense of, he had no idea when or how it would end. So, it's not like you walk into the Hanoi Hilton and they give you a slip of paper and say, "Your release date is December 31, 1972." I mean, you have no idea.

• 1:35:59Jim Collins?

  You don't know how long you'll be there, you don't know what it's going to be like all the way through it, you don't know if you'll reunite with your family again. There's no sense of when this might come to an end, or if it will come to an end. And it was that never-ending sense, this just, that struck me as, that was hard. And then it dawned on me, I'm feeling this, reading pages in a book, and I know the end of the story. I know he gets out, I know he reunites with his family, I know we're gonna go for a really nice walk on this beautiful campus in just a few days.

• 1:36:44Jim Collins?

  How on earth did he live it, not knowing the end of the story?

• 1:36:54Jim Collins?

  ¿Cómo no capituló a la desesperación?

• 1:37:00Jim Collins?

  Así que le pregunté y dijo: "Oh, nunca capitulé a la desesperación porque nunca jamás renuncié en mi fe, no solo que saldría, sino que lo convertiría en el evento definidor de mi vida, que en retrospectiva no cambiaría."

• 1:37:22Jim Collins?

  Así que no dijimos nada por un tiempo, simplemente caminamos. Él estaba muy cómodo con el silencio. Y caminamos, y caminamos. Finalmente le dije: "Admiral Stockdale, ¿quién no salió tan fuerte como usted?" "Oh, eso es fácil, fue el optimista."

• 1:37:38Jim Collins?

  Estoy un poco confundido aquí. Y dijo: "Por optimistas, quiero decir aquellos que dijeron: "Nos vamos a quedar hasta el Cristo y el Cristo vendría y se iría. Nos vamos a quedar hasta el Ester y vendría y se iría. Nos vamos a quedar hasta el Cristo y vendría y se iría." Y sufrieron de un corazón roto.

• 1:38:03Jim Collins?

  Y esto es cuando aprendí de Admiral Stockdale esta idea: "Nunca confundas la necesidad, por un lado, de la fe sin renunciar, de que puedes y vas a triunfar al final, pero también al mismo tiempo, y al mismo tiempo, la disciplina para confrontar los hechos más brutales, como en realidad son hoy."

• 1:38:33Jim Collins?

  Siempre tenía esta imagen de Admiral Stockdale diciendo: "No vamos a salir de aquí hasta el Cristo, trate de ello."

• 1:38:40Jim Collins?

  Ano después, estaba trabajando en la investigación para lo que se convirtió en "Good to Great", y kept noticing los líderes de nivel 5 de los que hablamos en el último episodio. A menudo tuvieron que llevar sus compañías a través de años de experiencias desesperadas para llegar al otro lado. Y todos parecían tener esa dualidad extraña, ese tipo de fe sin renunciar, para enfrentar los hechos brutales. Y un día compartí la historia de Stockdale con el equipo de investigación y todo el mundo se levantó diciendo, esencialmente: "Eso es todo. Eso es exactamente lo que estamos viendo con estas personas." Y terminamos llamando a eso el paradojo de Stockdale.

• 1:39:22Jim Collins?

  I find, whether it's this COVID time, people hopefully may be listening to this after COVID time, because I certainly anticipate there will be one. But we go through Stockdale moments, whether it be like we're doing on a global basis right now, we are in a Stockdale moment. Companies and leaders and entrepreneurs go through Stockdale moments. Times in our lives that you go through Stockdale moments. Remember last time, we talked about the spreadsheet I keep where I do the plus one, plus two, zero, minus one, minus two, calculation of the days? And how you get a minus two day, you can feel like you're in a really dark hole. Everything is colored by that. Well, part of coming up with that is the idea to basically lend faith that when you

• 1:40:05Jim Collins?

  look at the data, you see a lot of ones and twos that you can't see clearly when you're in the minus two. Well, it's sort of an actualization of living the Stockdale paradox. You've got to confront the fact, today sucked, or this is hard, or I am feeling really down, or whatever. And there's unwavering faith that the plus twos will return.

• 1:40:24Tim Ferriss?

  May I ask you a question about your scoring book?

• 1:40:28Jim Collins?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:29Tim Ferriss?

  Your spreadsheet? Because I don't think I asked this last time, and that is, well, as a lead in, there are many different ways to get to the same average. And one approach, let's just say, and I'm not saying this is the objective, but your goal were to hit a certain average. One way to get there would be to have consistently plus one, negative one, plus one, negative one, zero, zero, plus one, negative one. Another way to get there would be plus two, negative two, plus two, negative two, zero, and so on. Which of those do you prefer? If either?

• 1:41:08Jim Collins?

  Do I prefer?

• 1:41:09Tim Ferriss?

  More or less volatility?

• 1:41:11Jim Collins?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:12Tim Ferriss?

  If you choose less volatility, you're getting lower amplitude on the positive days.

• 1:41:16Jim Collins?

  Yeah, that's a great question. Let me think about that for a minute, because, you know, I find they come in strings. Okay, so there's a couple of things I've observed. So for those who didn't hear that episode, the essence of it is, I score this, I track two numbers every day. I track the number of creative hours I got for the day, and they have to sum up over a 365 day period. Always have to be above a thousand creative hours. And my self-imposed march is that it has to stay above a thousand creative hours every 365 days, every day of the year for 50 years. Right, so that's the march on the creative side. Then there's this other part, which is tracking, how does the day feel? Was it a plus-two day, plus-one, zero, minus-one, minus-two?

• 1:41:59Jim Collins?

  And the reason that that's very important to put in at the end of the day is the next day you might feel different. So you gotta put it down that day and then start looking for correlations about what correlates with twos and ones and minuses and so forth. And I do this every single day. And, but as I begin to go back and look at patterns, I find a couple of things. The first is, sometimes there are strings. You might go through two, three weeks that are, you know, a lot of plus-one, plus-twos, and the averages are starting to be above one, which is really good, by the way. To be above one means there's twos and ones and not a lot of negatives. And then you might get a string of, you know, a week that's just, you know, for whatever reason, and often it's just you wake up in the morning and you have that sense of dread and anxiety. And you can't shake it.

• 1:42:43Jim Collins?

  And it sort of colors everything. I've learned how to deal with it by basically preparing for the things in the future. But you begin to see those and you begin to see that they come in strings. And so what do I prefer? I just prefer a lot of ones and twos, excepting the brutal fact that there are minus-ones and minus-twos. But in terms of the amplitude, so the reality of life is not a lot of plus-twos and not a ton of minus-twos, which is why the average is sort of a little more consistent. But I really love the plus-twos. And so if you gave me a choice, would I rather have minus-twos and plus-twos? Well, that's really hard to answer.

• 1:43:24Jim Collins?

  That's really hard to answer. You know, one thing I have noticed, though, this is just myself. I mean, I'm my own weird idiosyncratic case. So in studying myself, one of the things I've noticed is, and this is part of what is great about life and self-observation. I can find that I can have minus twos and plus twos right next to each other. It is astounding. Sometimes there's strings, right? But sometimes it's just astounding how you can go have one day where you're just like, "Man, if my life was going to be all these minus twos, it's just not a life I want." And then the very next day, something changes and it's a plus two. And you try to figure out what that is. I can't always explain it, but it's incredible. And it's that notion also, sometimes I've even noticed that something starts off feeling

• 1:44:08Jim Collins?

  like it's going to be a minus two. And you observe that, like, "Man, it's going to be a minus two day." No, the day's not done. The day's not written. The day's not over. I have choices I can make. So can I turn this, what's looking like a minus two day, into at least a plus one or plus two? The day is not written. And I've found that you can begin to start changing them. I think that I've learned some of the triggers that cause the negatives. I think comparison, one of my mentors, Michael Ray, had a wonderful line, which is, "Comparison is the primary sin of modern life."

• 1:44:48Jim Collins?

  And I find that anytime I find myself in comparison to others, as opposed to, "Hey, am I making the backs of the statues as beautiful as I can?", that tends to correlate with minus twos, much more so. I find that if... I'm also very sensitive to how other people around me are feeling. And if other people are having minus twos, I might be more likely to have a minus two.

• 1:45:17Tim Ferriss?

  If you don't mind me digging into the comparison, because I think a lot of people will resonate with comparison, if not as the primary sin of modern life, as a...

• 1:45:28Jim Collins?

  That was Michael Ray's statement. That was a good one.

• 1:45:30Tim Ferriss?

  Right, right. As a predictor or a harbinger of negative two days. How did that... Well, let me ask you first. I mean, the question that I have is, would you be willing to give some examples of how that shows up for you? How are you comparing yourself to other people? Because you strike me as such a...

• 1:45:50Tim Ferriss?

  Such a unique snowflake. I mean, I don't know who you would compare yourself to exactly. I mean, I'm sure we can always find people. Maybe it's some incredible 514 rock climber. I don't know. But how does it most often show up for you? Comparison, this seduction, this kind of moth to the flame of comparison? And how did it show up for Michael Ray? If you have any idea.

• 1:46:15Jim Collins?

  Yeah, well, Michael Ray was a very evolved specimen. And the way, I mean, he was an academic professor, professor of marketing, then taught the creativity and business class. And I think that in the world of academia with peer review and with kind of the tenure ladder and all of that, it kind of breeds a sense of comparison. And I think that

• 1:46:38Tim Ferriss?

  Totally.

• 1:46:39Jim Collins?

  Yeah. And where your office is and a whole bunch of other things. In a way, it's kind of a, and then Silicon Valley. I mean, if there is sin city, it's Silicon Valley.

• 1:46:50Jim Collins?

  In terms of comparison is the primary sin of modern life. Right? And so, and Michael dealt with it by very, very deep spiritual practice. That was the way he dealt with it.

• 1:47:01Tim Ferriss?

  What was his spiritual practice?

• 1:47:03Jim Collins?

  He was involved very deeply in a very extensive meditation and studying under, I believe, maybe more than one guru. And he dedicated his life to his own evolution to find what he always described as to get in touch with his real inner essence as opposed to his external forms. And his life was very guided in that direction. I think that for me, sometimes it's changed over the years. I think when I was younger, it would be sort of more surface level comparisons. It's never been like, gee, how am I comparing financially? Or how am I comparing? I actually would rather compare with people being maybe surprised.

• 1:47:48Jim Collins?

  Say, oh, you don't have X and Y and Z. I kind of like that. You don't have windows in your office? Like, I kind of like those sorts of comparisons of being like different. But the, yeah, why don't you have the corner office with all the windows? Exactly, because there'll be windows. It'll be distracting. We were talking earlier in our earlier one about John McPhee. Like, you can read a John McPhee paragraph and go,

• 1:48:11Jim Collins?

  I don't know if I could ever do that paragraph.

• 1:48:15Tim Ferriss?

  That's a really optimistic stance. I just say, god damn, I can't even imagine ever producing a paragraph like that.

• 1:48:22Jim Collins?

  Exactly, exactly. You know, but it's, it's, it's sort of, I think sometimes it's, it's just these standards that, and then I see people who embody them and you feel, oh, inadequate to those. And that's where some of the comparison comes in. In climbing, it's great. As you get to be 62 or 63, you know, you're gonna lose a comparison with anybody who's 25, so.

• 1:48:49Tim Ferriss?

  Right, right. Not on the table.

• 1:48:50Jim Collins?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:52Tim Ferriss?

  What do you do if Michael Ray had his spiritual practice to act as a countervailing force, a counterbalance to the very human, I should say, instinct, reflex, evolutionary, pre-programmed tendency to compare? What do you, what do you have? What is your, what is your pattern interrupt? Or sort of method for mitigating the tailspin or possibility of that negative to do to comparison?

• 1:49:20Jim Collins?

  Yeah. I've learned some very specific things that, again, I'm idiosyncratic to myself. Everybody probably has to find their own patterns and I certainly am not one to prescribe that other people, although after our last session, I guess a bunch of people started spreadsheets and good, I hope they're helpful to them, but people have to sort of find their own recipe and that's what the bug book's about, right? To begin to observe for yourself as you study yourself like a bug, what really works. And for me, I've learned a couple of things that, that the critical thing is to find something very tangible that pivots me to the future and what's coming next. And, and so, for example, I've learned that if I wake up at four or five in the morning and I know I'm hitting

• 1:50:04Jim Collins?

  the 20 minute rule and I'm not going to get back to sleep and I can feel those, you know...

• 1:50:09Tim Ferriss?

  What is the 20 minute rule?

• 1:50:10Jim Collins?

  20 minute rule basically says if you wake up in the middle of the night and you're not back to sleep by 20 minutes, you get up and get going. And so I followed the 20-minute rule and I hit the 20-minute rule like there's no way I'm getting back to sleep. So get up and going, but in that 20-minute you can, there's something weird about laying there in bed in the darkness that you can, it's almost like feeling the, you can feel those, it's like a black mist sort of coming in and you can begin to, all of a sudden you're thinking about something that's whether it's comparison or comparison to something to a standard you could have done better or whatever. Here's what I've learned, just even this last weekend as I was preparing for our conversation.

• 1:50:48Jim Collins?

  I have found that one of the best things to do is to throw myself into creative preparation for something that's coming up. And to go into the preparation bubble and the reason for that is simple. There's nothing to compare to at all. There's nothing to be like judgmental of, there's nothing to be, none of those things, they've never, they haven't happened yet. But they're all in the future and all your energy goes from, you know, looking backward or looking to the side or any of that. And all that just all of a sudden becomes this energy, roll out of bed, go right, right to the desk. And then immediately pop up and say, what have I got coming up I need to prepare for?

• 1:51:31Jim Collins?

  So, hey, I'm going to be talking with Tim. I better be thinking about what did we talk about last time? Well, it could be different this time, like what may, I should probably go back and revisit the, the four-hour work week. And all of a sudden this generation of I'm preparing, I'm preparing, I'm looking forward, I'm on the balls of my feet, I'm creating, right? And it all goes away. And so, and I have a little thing on my, on my iPhone, which is I have my to-dos like everybody else and I also have my stop-dos on mine. But there's, I have a thing called prep and prep is always in bold. And so whenever I'm in that point, I immediately go to the bold line that's called prep. And I say, what can I prepare for?

• 1:52:12Jim Collins?

  And then, or I can be preparing for, you know, that also applies if I go into my research. But again, that's for ideas that have yet to happen. I can't judge the ideas. They're not there yet.

• 1:52:25Tim Ferriss?

  What do you use to contain your to-dos, stop-dos, and prep? Do you use notes? Do you use a different application? Where do those things live?

• 1:52:35Jim Collins?

  I am a, and the people in our little system here know this, I'm a fanatic for simplicity. I'm not always so good at it, but I'm a fanatic for simplicity. I don't like really complicated, I'm sorry to app makers and all that, I apologize to you. So, how do I keep my to-dos? I use the notes app on my iPhone, and which also that carries over to my iPad. And I have two versions of it. There's the, the beginning of every year, you sit down and you do your sets of threes, right? Top three things to get done this year, write them down. Top three things to stop doing, or reduce significantly this year, it has to balance, three for three.

• 1:53:20Jim Collins?

  If you have more than three in your top set, you don't have any priorities. Then, right, truly. And then, and then you go down to top three, what I call, of supporting objectives. So, for example, you know, I might have a top objective, redesign the Socratic process. I might have a supporting objective, which is, create a new table for the space, right? Something that's supportive. But, again, only three. And they're supporting the big ones, but they have to be in support of. And then, and then there'll be other threes, like, you know, I actually have one, top three fun, right? I'm really trying on that, right? And so, this is still one of the hard ones for me. So, you do that, and so I have those over there on one thing, and you go back and you constantly, and at the end of the year, you grade yourself, right?

• 1:54:04Jim Collins?

  And you don't grade yourself, you don't get to change it. You have to grade yourself at the end, on every one of those, at the end of the year, A, B, C, D, F. You can use minuses and pluses if you want. And you grade yourself relative to exactly what you said you were going to focus on for the year. Now, something may happen, you might get sick, or have to deal with that, or whatever, but you grade yourself. And you go to that, and it's on a simple note. It's just a simple, like, little memo pad, right? And then, you have your, what's sort of going on. Which is the long list every time you think of something you need to do. You just add it to, it's a memo note, that's all it is. But the critical step, and you wrote about this, you're really good at this, Tim. When you sit down, you do the very thing that you wrote about, I think, in the Four Hour Work Week.

• 1:54:48Jim Collins?

  And I found it very, very helpful. Sit down and you just look at that list and you say, okay, what are the two, maybe three things today? That like, and if only, and maybe even one of them, right? This is today. And sometimes it can be simply as, today is a day that if I didn't have fun, it's a failure, right? Because it's going to be a fun day or whatever. But then here's the little trick I've learned. There's all the other to-dos, and they might go on for hundreds of things, just so someday you don't always forget about them. I'd like to hit return enough times that when you open the memo, which you always have keys so it can open up instantaneously. When you open the memo, all the ones below those top three are off the screen.

• 1:55:32Jim Collins?

  And they're there, right? But they're purposely hidden. And it's simple, it's just simple. And I use, for date things, I use the thing on the iPhone, which is, you know, their simple reminders thing. But like around here, we could have all these, you know, we could have like all these powerful apps for tracking contacts and stuff like that. And I'm like, you know, or things that we have to prepare for. I'm like, why don't we just use an Excel spreadsheet or a Word document? I just think the critical thing is, if you don't have the discipline, no app is going to make you disciplined.

• 1:56:13Tim Ferriss?

  Speaking of discipline, what are some examples of things on your stop-do list?

• 1:56:17Jim Collins?

  Well, I think one of the biggest ones on my stop-do list, and I give myself so far, it used to be, you always, my grades are rising. One is, don't hit send.

• 1:56:28Tim Ferriss?

  What does that mean?

• 1:56:29Jim Collins?

  So, you know, one of the things I learned from another wonderful mentor, a fellow named Irv Grossbeck.

• 1:56:38Jim Collins?

  You can always say something you haven't said. You can never unsay something you've said. And so I, it's a very simple thing, but I never draft an email response in an email app. I never draft an important text in the text app.

• 1:57:00Jim Collins?

  Because you might hit send.

• 1:57:03Jim Collins?

  And sometimes it's a matter of when you hit send. So, you know, I thought about the shock it hits my system. If I'm up at four in the morning and something occurs to me and I text and email people on my team at four in the morning. First of all, they don't need to know about it at four in the morning. At eight, I might not even think it's that important because it just was occurring to me at four in the morning. And I've shocked their life. It is completely unhelpful. So, I don't put it in the map. I just type it out. And I would say about somewhere between a half and two thirds of my correspondence I never send.

• 1:57:39Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 1:57:41Tim Ferriss?

  That's amazing.

• 1:57:41Jim Collins?

  Partly because I like a conversation if I can have that. And one thing I've really observed with really effective people. And I'll never forget every once in a while and a couple of the conversations that well, I've actually had this with multiple people, really remarkable people. I've noticed that they often see the purpose of email is to trigger a conversation by voice. Dear Jim, can we chat?

• 1:58:07Tim Ferriss?

  How do you feel about that?

• 1:58:09Jim Collins?

  About, oh, about, Dear Jim, can we chat?

• 1:58:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:13Jim Collins?

  Well, I'm reclusive, so often that's but if it's the right person, I mean, there are things that can happen in a in a by voice and conversation that can never happen. Imagine having this conversation by email.

• 1:58:26Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:58:29Tim Ferriss?

  Harder.

• 1:58:30Jim Collins?

  It'd be really, it'd be really, really hard to do. So, another thing is I have travel. Is at least on a clearly right now it is stopped doing, but I ideally would love it to be almost permanently a stop doing. Travel for other than fun. And those are some that are really, you know, I'm still very much working on, but when in doubt, don't hit send.

• 1:58:52Tim Ferriss?

  If we return to the consolidated map of concepts, this

• 1:58:57Tim Ferriss?

  This map of concepts in a framework after 30 years. There are many that we could talk about and you can feel free to to go off menu with what I'm going to mention, but I would love to hear more about the genius of the end or clock building, not time telling.

• 1:59:14Jim Collins?

  Okay, great.

• 1:59:15Tim Ferriss?

  But you can you can choose option C if there's another one you think would be more more fun to explore.

• 1:59:20Jim Collins?

  Right, let me zoom out for a moment about this map and then I'll pop into a couple of comments about that. So first of all, what is the map? Starting way back when I first started teaching the entrepreneurship and small business class and just as an aside, by the way, a lot of people think that my work has been about big companies because the companies that were in the research were huge companies by the time we picked them up to study them. And that's where the data was because they were publicly traded companies. So that's that's but but we always studied them back to when they were startups. So I was interested in Disney when Disney was doing a first cartoon. I was interested in, you know, how Amgen went from a startup into finally stumbling

• 2:00:04Jim Collins?

  upon what would become EPO. I was interested in Intel when it had three people and Southwest Airlines when it had three airplanes. And for me, I've always had my main interest and passion has been ultimately for the entrepreneur and the entrepreneur who I would like to challenge with the beyond part of the entrepreneurship part, which is to basically take the idea of, okay, now that you have a successful business, can you make the journey from there to build, turn it into a truly enduring great company? I mean, if you're going to do it, why don't you try to create one of the companies that can last, that's worthy of lasting, that can change the world, that can go on and continue to do that for generations and can serve as a role model for others?

• 2:00:49Jim Collins?

  Like, if you can do that, why don't you do that, right? Or at least, why don't you think about doing that? That was always sort of the frame. You get companies when they're young and when they're small because it's like getting them when they're really, really still in the early parenting stage. And it's easier to turn a small business or an entrepreneurial company into a great company than it is to try to change a giant mediocrity.

• 2:01:14Jim Collins?

  Down the road into a great company. So get it right early. That's kind of where all this work began. And I started thinking about how would we do that? And that's what led to the research. And last time we talked about the research, about the comparative analysis and historical analysis and all the things that we do that go back to how I learned how to do this research with Jerry Porras. And we applied it first in Built to Last. It wasn't about big. It was about how the small became the lasting and visionary. The others did not. And each study was, I kind of think of it as it wasn't a series of four books. It wasn't like Built to Last and then Good to Great and then How the Mighty Fall and then Great by Choice. It was actually one giant study that came out in installments.

• 2:01:57Jim Collins?

  And each study was looking at the question of what it takes to build a truly great company. Superior results, distinctive impact, lasting endurance, a truly great company. And after 30 years, I thought to myself, now that I'm moving on to new questions. So after we, after this conversation, Tim, I'm going to be heading off into, you know, the next time we talk, hopefully I'll be emerging from the cave with perspectives on these new questions. I'm midpoint in my career at 62, as I think of it, moving on to new stuff. I wanted to consolidate all of our work into something that could fit on a single whiteboard. 30 years of research on a single whiteboard.

• 2:02:40Jim Collins?

  And so I thought, I'm going to give people a map. If you did 30 years of research, rigorously figuring out what makes great companies tick, and you wanted to hand it to an entrepreneur and say, follow this. Here's, here's the map. What would it look like? Hence the map. And then, and then beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0, I've written a whole chapter on what the map is, consolidates all that work. It unfolds in these stages of stage ones about disciplined people. So your level five leaders, your right people on the bus, all those. And stage two is about disciplined thought, the genius of the end and the Stockdale paradox, which we talked about earlier, the hedgehog concept, which we talked about in the previous session together. Stage three is all about disciplined action, which begins with the flywheel,

• 2:03:23Jim Collins?

  which we spent a lot of time on the last episode on. And then executing on the flywheel with a fanatic 20-mile march. Mine is my 1,000 creative hours, but companies can have them too. And then renewing and extending that flywheel with firing bullets, then cannonballs, to get calibration and then placing very calibrated big bets that extend that flywheel. Leading to stage four, which is building greatness to last, which is productive paranoia. You've got to stay alive and stay out of the stages of decline. Shift from being a time teller to a clock builder, because if you're just a time teller, everything falls apart when you go away. So you've got to build a clock. And then finally, the real deep secret of preserve the core, stimulate progress,

• 2:04:05Jim Collins?

  allowing you to achieve BHAG after BHAG after BHAG. Those are all the inputs.

• 2:04:11Tim Ferriss?

  BHAG, for people who don't know, being big hairy audacious goals.

• 2:04:15Jim Collins?

  Big hairy audacious goals. And it's funny, there's a long story about how that came about. We eventually embraced the big and the hairy and the audacious. It's a way to stimulate progress. And great companies in history, many of them have used BHAGs very artfully to stimulate progress. And then there's finally in the map, one principle that multiplies all the others, which is the principle of return on luck. And that was the piece of analysis that Morten Hansen and I did that I'm very, very proud of, because we're able to define and quantify the variable of luck. And then to ask rigorously, systematically, what role does it play? What role does it not play?

• 2:04:58Jim Collins?

  And how should you think about it when you really look at the long course of things? You add all those principles up, they can fit on a single whiteboard. They're the inputs, they unfold in those sequence. And if I disappeared tomorrow, I would love to be able to say to anybody who's started a company or a business, say, "I want it to be a great company." Take the map, follow the map. I'm gone, but the map is here. And that's what that's all about. In terms of the genius at the end, one of the things we found... Is that those who really build enduring great companies, it may be great companies even that just for a period of time, but get these extraordinary things going, they reject the tyranny of the or,

• 2:05:42Jim Collins?

  and they embrace the genius of the and. And so that we found this real ability to live with both sides of ands all the time. When somebody says creativity or discipline, they say and. Innovation or execution, they say and. They say, you know, values or results, they say and. And one of the big ones is purpose and profit. You know, we live in this time, whenever it's like we've discovered purpose again, as if this is a new discovery. But Jerry and I found in our research 25 years ago, one of the main findings of Built to Last was that the visionary companies have always been more driven by purpose than their mediocre also rants

• 2:06:27Jim Collins?

  in our comparative analysis. And they were more successful as businesses. So this notion of purpose over profits isn't quite right.

• 2:06:39Tim Ferriss?

  Could you give an example of a paragon in your mind, a company that really exemplifies that combination?

• 2:06:49Jim Collins?

  Well, I think one that people would maybe really identify with is Patagonia and Yvonne Chouinard. So people would know it. But the great story of how Yvonne Chouinard grew up in rock climbing and mountaineering. And he had this belief that a company should be a tool for changing people's behavior that would have a positive impact. And I remember back in 1972-ish, I got the Chouinard catalog, and it was a manifesto for clean climbing. And back then, we used to bash peatons into the rock. And Yvonne comes along and says,

• 2:07:34Jim Collins?

  you know, if we keep bashing peatons into the rock as more and more people climb, we're going to just leave these ugly scars. And he had a picture in there, if I remember right, of a thing called Serenity Crack in Yosemite, which basically used to be this beautiful thin seam that was just marred and mangled with peaton holes. And Yvonne said, this is wrong.

• 2:07:56Jim Collins?

  But then, so his purpose was he was going to change the climbing community to be that role model and tool for social change, which is really kind of the purpose, right? Change the climbing community, make it more sustainable of what we were doing, and he was going to issue a manifesto to that effect, and the catalog was a manifesto. I still have it. I still have that manifesto catalog.

• 2:08:17Tim Ferriss?

  No kidding.

• 2:08:18Jim Collins?

  Yep. And then he put that out of the world to educate us about what we were doing, trying to get us to change our behavior. You've got to remember, when a peat on feels really secure, and he's saying, "Take this little tiny piece of aluminum that I've attached to this webbing and slot it in and it's dead, and you're thinking, 'Man, I don't want to hit a ledge.'" It's like, "No, we have to do this. These will be safe. Let me show you." He then provided the solution, and basically said, "I'm going to give you the answers. I'm going to give you the eccentrics, and the stoppers, and all the products that we could use and trust." And then made that, said, "Don't buy the old products. Buy these new ones, because they will be better." And essentially led us through, with his company as the catalyst for doing it, into a revolution with other climbers who were calling for this too.

• 2:09:02Jim Collins?

  But he provided this great solution to be a role model and a tool for social change in the climbing community, which then later has become larger for them in the way that they do all of the things that they do. And the power of it is, Patagonia is an incredibly successful business. And it is purpose all the way along, and profit. And this goes back decades, and is alive today. And Christine McDivitt, who built the company with him, that was the whole thing. We have to do the and. We have to do the and. We have to do the and.

• 2:09:36Tim Ferriss?

  I am so glad you brought up Patagonia. I have traveled with Yvon Chouinard's book, Let My People Go Surfing, since it was initially published. I've had a copy of that book that has traveled with me for however long it's been, 20 years, 20-plus years. And they just do a phenomenal job. I actually have literally a Spanish paprika mackerel from Patagonia Provisions in front of me. And I've become fascinated with the work that they're doing from a sort of biological, ecological perspective on sustainability, sustainable agriculture, and utilizing what we might consider bait, utilizing what we might consider, you know, the precursors of food, like seeds, in a really thoughtful and intelligent way, which...

• 2:10:24Tim Ferriss?

  exemplifies the end, like you said.

• 2:10:27Jim Collins?

  And what I think is really, the thing I would really emphasize is, there's nothing trendy about this. So Jerry and I found way back in Built to Last, going way back to companies, some of them founded back in the 1800s, that this notion of, we have a reason for existence that is not defined in terms of maximizing wealth for the owners.

• 2:10:52Jim Collins?

  And we have incredible discipline to be an incredibly profitable, successful, growing, sustainable business. And that we found that in our research, and then you see a company like Patagonia, you, there's nothing about it that is new. There are new ways of doing it, but it's been there since the beginning. And this idea that somehow companies should go out and like, you don't bolt on a purpose. You don't say, you know, I read we should have a purpose, so I guess let's go get one. It doesn't work like that. It's, it has to be this inner purpose that you have always had. And it is, it's far better to never say you have a purpose if you don't

• 2:11:37Jim Collins?

  than to inauthentically proclaim one.

• 2:11:40Tim Ferriss?

  So I, I still have 7,000 pages of notes and prompts and questions that we could spend another seven hours on. I think we, we should probably bring around to, to a close and put a bow on it in about, say, 15 to 20 minutes.

• 2:11:59Jim Collins?

  Sure.

• 2:11:59Tim Ferriss?

  What would, what do you think would be fun or important, or fun and important to cover? I mean, I have questions about, of course, the clock building, not time telling. I have questions about other mentors of yours, like, I don't know if this is a single named person like Madonna. I'm probably missing one. Rochelle, you know, if you had 10 years to live, what would you stop doing? There, there's so many things that we could talk about. What would you like to talk about? Or what do you think would make sense?

• 2:12:27Jim Collins?

  Yeah, it's funny, Tim. I, I was really a little bit worried and hesitant about doing another conversation with you because you did such a great job last time and we covered so much material that I thought, we're gonna have nothing to talk about.

• 2:12:42Tim Ferriss?

  Surprise.

• 2:12:44Jim Collins?

  So as I, if I think about, might be really fun and/or maybe useful to people, but fun. Maybe if you and I have fun, that's where we'll have the best use of our time here.

• 2:12:56Tim Ferriss?

  Let's do it.

• 2:12:56Jim Collins?

  Let me ask you, what would you, what would you go to for fun? I have a couple of thoughts.

• 2:13:02Tim Ferriss?

  What I'm being pulled to, particularly given some experiences in the last few weeks, is a tremendous pull towards simplification. And I think that is why the thought exercise of asking the question, if you had 10 years to live, what would you stop doing, is pulling my eye. My eye keeps getting pulled to that. Maybe that's my version of fun. I'm not sure if.

• 2:13:28Jim Collins?

  And you're also curious about the clock building and time telling.

• 2:13:31Tim Ferriss?

  I am.

• 2:13:32Jim Collins?

  Yeah. So I think we could easily do both of those if you, if you'd like.

• 2:13:36Tim Ferriss?

  Let's do it.

• 2:13:37Jim Collins?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:37Tim Ferriss?

  Let's tackle it.

• 2:13:39Jim Collins?

  So we talked earlier about, you've got the map, you know, the stages, and then you get to the fourth stage about building greatness to last. And in that, it's one of, a key idea that, again, it was Jerry Porras and myself together working on what became Built to Last, where this idea came out. And, you know, so first of all, it's this kind of picture that there's a town square and there's this, there's this amazing time teller, right? That could come in at any time of day or night, look up at the stars and the moon and the sky and go, tell you exactly what time it is. They could tell you it's 12, 13, and, and 22 seconds in the morning on such and such a date. I mean, they're incredible time teller. And you don't need a clock because you got the time teller. And one day, the time teller goes away.

• 2:14:23Jim Collins?

  Time teller dies, or the time teller, you know, decides to move to another town or whatever. Now all of a sudden, no one knows what time it is. And what we found is, when we go back to the early stages, now this is very much about the entrepreneurial side of things, go back to the very early stages of companies that became the enduring great companies. So Disney is an entrepreneur. David Packard is an entrepreneur. Tom Watson, Sr. as an entrepreneur. George Rathman is an entrepreneur. Herb Kelleher is an entrepreneur. Right? You go back to, we could just go through the long list of them. R.W. Johnson, J. Willard Marriott, Paul Galvin, they were all entrepreneurs, right? At some point. What happens?

• 2:15:08Jim Collins?

  Well, at some point, they, very early in their journey, or relatively early in the journey, they said, "I don't want to be a time teller, that everything depends upon me to tell the time. I don't want to be that visionary founder, that everything depends upon me. I want to build a clock that could tell the time even if I'm not here. And I'm going to start the process of thinking about that relatively early." Whether that be, you know, and there's a whole bunch of different things that one could put in the clock. But I think that it was a temperament that they had, that they understood that they had to make a shift away from doing more time telling, and most entrepreneurs

• 2:15:49Jim Collins?

  are good time tellers, right? They recognize, "It's time for X." But to shift to building a company means, "I've got to become the clock builder. I've got to," you know, that involves all the things we write about, about, you know, picking your people, and building your systems, and nurturing your culture, and building great mechanisms, and a whole bunch of other things like that. But you build the clock. And sometimes that can be, it's better to start clock building when it's relatively early. Anne Baker, who's just one of the great leaders I've gotten to know at Telecare, when she took over her father's company, he had died of an adverse medical event, and she all of a sudden had the company on her shoulders. One of the first things she did

• 2:16:29Jim Collins?

  was to sit down and say, "What are the basic things we're going to build this on, so that instead of really relying upon my father anymore to be here, we as a company can carry on what he was all about?" And that means, "I have to really build the clock." And of course, that's when the company really began to take off, and for the next 30 years has been an incredible run. So I encourage all entrepreneurs, and there's one thing I want to highlight here. There's this, maybe it's not as much of a myth today, I don't know, you would know better than I do. But there's this myth that there are these things called entrepreneurs, that have kind of an entrepreneurial temperament. And they're

• 2:17:13Jim Collins?

  really good for starting companies.

• 2:17:17Jim Collins?

  They're really good at like, you know, they're kind of these crazy, not necessarily even crazy people. They can be very disciplined people, but they are the starters. And their natural temperament is that they should be starting things. And then you have a different temperament, almost like a different species, which are those who build the company. And at some times, for some of these entrepreneurs, and some of you might be listening to this right now, people around you, like your board, or folks around you say, you know, it's kind of, the company's outgrowing you. It's now time for you to sort of think about, maybe you should really hand this off to somebody who could take it to a different level.

• 2:17:59Jim Collins?

  And I encourage in the strongest possible terms that any entrepreneur that faces that conversation, to look in the mirror and ask yourself the question, what choice do I want to make? Because what you find in the research is that almost all of the great entrepreneurs we studied became the great builders of their companies. Disney built Disney. David Packard and Bill Hewlett built HP. Jeff Bezos is building Amazon. Bill Gates built Microsoft, right? The entrepreneur becomes the builder. The average tenure and harness of the founding shapers of the companies that became the great companies

• 2:18:45Jim Collins?

  is about 36 years. Now, you might choose that you just want to go start something else. That's fine, but don't ever let anybody tell you, you can't choose to be the other. So, Rochelle.

• 2:19:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Who is Rochelle?

• 2:19:05Jim Collins?

  I got to share with you this story and this image of Rochelle. I met Rochelle in 1982 when Michael Rais, we talked about him earlier, Michael Rais, Course on Creativity in Business. And she co-taught the course with him. Now, you got to imagine you could meet somebody that is a cross between Socrates and Yoda.

• 2:19:33Tim Ferriss?

  Handsome, good-looking.

• 2:19:35Jim Collins?

  And Rochelle, Rochelle was just, she was just this really wise, and she was all of about five foot. And so we all come into the class the first day. We're sitting there, we're buzzing after the summer and what we did or whatever, and there was this five-foot-tall, very serene-looking woman in this kind of flowing mu-mu thing, standing in front of the class. She just stood there and just waited for us to quiet down. Eventually, we sort of realized we should be quiet, and all of a sudden Rochelle says, in this very quiet voice, "You are about to embark on a ten-week journey to discover your deepest inner essence."

• 2:20:22Jim Collins?

  At which point, I began thinking about what corporate finance class I could take instead.

• 2:20:30Jim Collins?

  So I'm thinking, "Man, I don't know about this." You remember, I'm a math guy, I love stats, I love quantifying things, all this stuff. So I go home, and Joanne says to me, "So, you know, how are your classes?" And I was like, "Talk about this one, Jim Van Horn's finance class and whatever."

• 2:20:45Jim Collins?

  I said, "But I have this other thing, I think I'm gonna drop it." And I told her this story, and Joanne looks at me and she says, "Oh, this would be really good for you." So, I stayed in the class, and Rochelle became one of the great guides in my life. And she's the one who I think taught me about questions. Because I used to go and meet with Rochelle, and she would, she would sit, and she would always begin with the same question, every time.

• 2:21:15Jim Collins?

  She has a little whiteboard, and she would write on the whiteboard, the date, and she would say, "It is November 23rd, 2020.

• 2:21:26Jim Collins?

  What would you like to get clear about today?"

• 2:21:31Jim Collins?

  And then she would, through a series of questions, you realize that she wasn't really, you'd come in with, you'd ask her a question, you know, to try to get clear on, but what she was trying to do was to get you clear on you. Who you are, what you are, what's inside you, not like what you should do for a job choice, right? And, and she, she just knew how to ask the right questions, right? That was the power, power of her questions.

• 2:22:02Tim Ferriss?

  Is her last name Myers?

• 2:22:04Jim Collins?

  Myers.

• 2:22:05Tim Ferriss?

  Myers.

• 2:22:06Jim Collins?

  Rachelle Myers. And at one point, she gave me a question, which was, I can't remember whether it was five years or 10. I think 10 is a little more useful of the number, but it could work with five. Essentially along the lines of, if you woke up tomorrow morning and you discovered, absolutely, you have only 10 years to live, what would you stop doing? I wrote down, quit my job. This is before I was teaching at Stanford. I was like, I don't want to do this, you know, I'm not cut out to be in a regular job.

• 2:22:47Jim Collins?

  And what Rachelle taught me with that question is, someday that 10 years or five years is going to be true. You just don't know when. I might already be in the 10. Hopefully not, I'm hoping I'm midway in my career, but you never know. And she says, you'd be asking yourself all the time, hey, if you knew you only had 10 years, or you knew you only had five years, now what would you do? First, what would you stop doing?

• 2:23:22Jim Collins?

  And I started using that as like a little guidance mechanism. She was also the one that taught me about like bug books and stuff like that. And you just start going through every day like if I had 10 years, would I do this? I had five years, would I do this? Because the truth is, it's all short. That's one of the lessons of Bill's life, right? It's short, goes by in a vanish. Any sense of historical perspective and it accelerates. And I used to walk into my class at Stanford influenced by Rochelle to my students. And one day I would walk in, I would just say, everybody take out a blank sheet of paper. And I say, I want you to write down, what would you do? What would you stop doing?

• 2:24:07Jim Collins?

  You discovered you only have a short time to live. So everybody's writing their notes down. And this, you know, before I went to the numbers board. I love the numbers board. This was one day before the numbers board. And then I didn't comment on it, other than to say one thing before I went into the numbers board, I said, oh, and now for all of us, that's true. We all have only a short time to live.

• 2:24:31Tim Ferriss?

  Did you personally still revisit that question? Or do you feel like you are already, you've already called the herd of activities to the point where you're doing exactly what you would like to be doing? Are there things that would still be on your stop doing list? If you went through that exercise?

• 2:24:47Jim Collins?

  I continue to, I'm pretty sure that my theme, I usually do a theme for every year at the top of that list of the threes of, you know, three primaries, three stop doings, et cetera. I'm pretty sure I set for the theme for this year because it comes back periodically. You know, only 10 years to live. And, and I try to go back to it because the truth is you get pulled in lots of different directions. I can say with complete equanimity, Tim, that if I knew I only had 10 years to live, we would be having this conversation. You know, I don't know, I think when you start getting into one to two years, things change because you got to tie up life.

• 2:25:30Jim Collins?

  But if you can basically get to the end of every week and say, if I had 10 years to live, it's still pretty good choices in my life. My, my life is composed of things, there's not a lot on the stop doing list. There are some things that you can't stop doing because it's reality.

• 2:25:46Tim Ferriss?

  Flossing, flossing.

• 2:25:49Jim Collins?

  But flossing is better if you have a really, really good course on how the brain works to watch.

• 2:25:56Tim Ferriss?

  That's true.

• 2:25:58Jim Collins?

  In fact, I was, this may sound strange, but I was standing there flossing while watching this course on how the brain works, and I couldn't help myself thinking, I wonder what my brain is doing with this.

• 2:26:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a really, really valuable prompt. And I think COVID has, has really brought that to the fore. The fragility, the fragility and impermanence of, of life. And I've had some people close to me, I've had relatives, close immediate relatives of my girlfriend, passed from COVID related complications. It's been a good reminder to revisit mortality, or at least the awareness that time is limited. And I too would be having this conversation. And you alluded to a question very early on that I like to

• 2:26:58Tim Ferriss?

  ask, which was on my list of unasked for round two, which was the billboard. And so here we go. Metaphorically speaking, you have a billboard to get a message, a quote, a question, anything you like to billions of people. Let's just assume they all are able to speak the same language and understand the same language. What might you put on that billboard? Doesn't have to be one thing, but what might you put on it?

• 2:27:24Jim Collins?

  How have you changed the lives of others?

• 2:27:29Jim Collins?

  And I come back to Bill.

• 2:27:33Jim Collins?

  You know, we could talk about all of his accomplishments and his board seats and how he became a chaired professor at the law school. And he was the first ever holder of the Charles and Nancy Munger Chair for Study of Business and Law at Stanford Law School, an incredibly accomplished career.

• 2:27:53Jim Collins?

  What is really great about Bill is he changed the lives of others. And I think that's a really good measure. It doesn't have to be a lot of people. It doesn't have to be that you changed millions of lives. I don't think of it that way. It's not scale. Bill did change a lot of lives. But are some people's lives better and different because you were here?

• 2:28:21Tim Ferriss?

  I think that is an excellent question to let linger, to end on. I think that is an excellent place to stop.

• 2:28:32Tim Ferriss?

  Jim, people can find you at jimcollins.com. The new book, which I encourage people to check out, is Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0, subtitle Turning Your Business Into An Enduring Great Company, which certainly expands upon a lot of the things that we've discussed. I find you always to be a skilled and enjoyable conversational tennis partner, or dance partner, jazz improv. It's always so much fun. And is there anything else that you would like to say, suggest, request, put out into the ether for listeners? Anything at all that you'd like to share before we come to a close?

• 2:29:11Jim Collins?

  Right. I'm just looking here at our list and I just am so tickled at how we did have a lot beyond part one to converse about. And I was, I mean, I truly was worried. It's like, what are we going to talk about? That was so rich last time.

• 2:29:29Tim Ferriss?

  We have enough left in front of me to do round three easily.

• 2:29:33Jim Collins?

  But so I, no, I think, as always, we went through in a, it seems circuitous, but actually there's the linear line has been the curiosity and the conversation. And I love that there are some questions where I'm not, I still want to think about my answers. I'm not 100%. Like, which do I prefer? That's a great question, actually. I'm going to be observing my spreadsheet to say, which do I prefer? I just prefer a lot of plus twos. I would really like that. And I, you know, once I, for me,

• 2:30:07Jim Collins?

  I guess here's what I would leave for people is, I have a hope for a lot of you. Sure, I hope some of you start and build great companies and that's a great use of a life. I think it's a very noble thing to build a great company. I think it's as noble as anything else you can do in life if it really contributes and adds not only economic wealth, but you know, it changes people's lives and provides a great place for people and so forth. I think that is noble. I hope some of you will take up on doing that. But whatever you do in your life, if I could wish something for all of you, it's that

• 2:30:44Jim Collins?

  you would find people like Rochelle Myers, Bill Lizer, Peter Drucker, Jim Stockdale, Ed Chao, you know, the people who can shape you. And when you find those mentors, make good on it and then do it for others. But I feel such deep, deep gratitude for what they have done for me. And I truly wish everybody got the benefit of that abundance and generosity that a great mentor does for you. It would be very impoverished to not have that.

• 2:31:26Tim Ferriss?

  And the mentors are out there. They are constitutionally predisposed to look for that energetic exchange or the circulating of the gift, if that makes any sense.

• 2:31:38Jim Collins?

  Exactly.

• 2:31:39Tim Ferriss?

  Right? I mean, they are, they are hardwired, just, just as, as any, any other organism might be for something to sort of serve that incredible function of mentor. So they are out there.

• 2:31:53Jim Collins?

  They are out there. But make sure that if you have the privilege of having a great mentor, it's a relationship, it's not a transaction. They're not there to open doors or any of that. They're there to mentor.

• 2:32:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And show up at eight o'clock, not eight o'clock in four seconds.

• 2:32:18Tim Ferriss?

  So Jim, one last cliffhanger request, if you would indulge me. And we can keep this short. I know you don't yet have answers to share. But can you share the next big question that you're working on?

• 2:32:33Jim Collins?

  Yeah. Boy, um, so, yeah. Let me, let me, I'm really puzzling how I want to share it exactly. I don't know the answers. I'm about five years into the research and the signature of it will be the research. And I, because that's all I have to offer ultimately is, is something that's research-based, if I do it right. John Gardner, one of my, another one of my mentors, I didn't get to spend enough time with him, but you know, he had this, he's the one that had this marvelous belief that, well, not to try to be interesting, should seek to be interested. And John wrote a marvelous book in 1962 by the title of Self Renewal.

• 2:33:16Jim Collins?

  And I went down the hall to John and I said, I'd like to do research on this because John believed one of the greatest costs to the world is the failure to self-renew. The failure of nations to self-renew, the failure of societies, failure of organizations and institutions and companies, and ultimately the failure of individuals to self-renew. And I said, I wanted to do research on it. And he kindly gave me a lot of time. I saw of all my notes from that. But he suggested I wait because it will take decades to do my great company's work. I was probably not old enough to understand it. And so I waited and about five years ago, I started a project and I finally figured

• 2:33:59Jim Collins?

  out how to do it. And it asked a very simple question, which is what's going to ultimately be the map? I just, it's going to take a long time to get to what the map is. But what is the map to self-renewal? And not as episodes, but over the arc of an entire life.

• 2:34:15Jim Collins?

  And why do some people remain so spectacularly renewed over the long course of a life? Maybe and others might not. And what are the real ingredients in that? And I'm taking a very research-based approach to it. I can't share what the method is. It's kind of like the Coke recipe. But it's really, so it's the most exciting stuff I've worked on in a really, really long time. I will share with you one question, though, and I'll leave all of your listeners with this question, because I do know one question. It's like, so far, I have questions more than answers, but I know one of the questions. One of the key questions about renewal is ultimately going to be, are you going to be

• 2:34:56Jim Collins?

  the kind of person who renews within a primary form, a primary art form in your life? Whether that be business, or writing, or music, or theater, or whatever it is that is your art form, politics, right? Or are you going to be somebody that is going to renew as your primary mechanism all the course of a life by changing your art forms? So if you take John McPhee, I just heard that wonderful interview with him, I think it was on NPR, called "The Old Man Project," you know, and he's in this race to get as many of his ideas out as he can. He's as renewed as ever, right? But he is renewal within a single art form. And it's a spectacular path of renewal that started early and ran forever.

• 2:35:39Jim Collins?

  But you could take other people who renew by changing their art forms, sometimes because it's imposed upon them. Catherine Graham, one of the great heroes in my mind, she was not, didn't want to, being a CEO wasn't her art form, but because of the way the post unfolded and the suicide of her husband, she had it on her shoulders, and she chose to renew into a different art form, to become a great CEO. And I think one of the great questions all of us have to wrestle with, because we're different, you know, different bugs, if you will, but one of the great wisdom questions is to remain renewed over the entire arc of a life. I mean, like, till you're, like, out and done. Is it going to be, are you going to be variations on a theme? Or are you going to be different themes?

• 2:36:24Jim Collins?

  And that is one of the crux questions. I will have answers for how you think about that. I don't know yet. And I can't wait. I have to go in the cave. Once I get BE 2.0 out, so I can help Bill come to the world, I'm going to be in the cave, think of me happily, without windows, figuring this out.

• 2:36:44Jim Collins?

  So how's that for a question?

• 2:36:46Tim Ferriss?

  I love that question. I love that question. Variations on a theme or different games altogether. It makes me think of being Mario Andretti and lane shifting or being a shapeshifter.

• 2:37:01Jim Collins?

  Yeah, exactly. And it's one of the wisdom questions because it's not like there's not like there are smart answers to this. They're wise answers. And I am trying to, I really want to understand. And this is the beauty of the of looking over the entire arc of people's lives done in a rigorously selected set to try to unpack this. And it is the most fun and interesting, engaging and exhausting piece of research I've been in for a long, long time. I really, really hope I, if I have only 10 years, I hope I can get it done. And I really hope I have enough time to get it.

• 2:37:45Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you know, if the power broker can get written, if Lyndon Johnson volumes can be compiled, I have great confidence in you. And Jim, this is always so much fun. Perhaps we'll have around three at some point. We certainly have no lack.

• 2:38:02Jim Collins?

  Well, and by then I might have something on renewal to say. So, but anyways, I'm just looking at the notes here and it says, most important, Tim, let's have fun. Have we accomplished said goal?

• 2:38:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yes. At least I can speak for myself. I had fun.

• 2:38:19Jim Collins?

  Absolutely. Me too.

• 2:38:21Tim Ferriss?

  And what a joy to be able to spend time together again. I really appreciate you making the time. And I really look forward to seeing what Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0 does in the world and the extension of your mentor's legacy and to to see the ripple effects that that will have as it's transmitted in written form to probably millions more by extension. And congratulations.

• 2:38:53Jim Collins?

  Thank you.

• 2:38:53Tim Ferriss?

  It's very exciting.

• 2:38:54Jim Collins?

  It's about, in the end, it's about Bill. So that's what I am very excited about. I appreciate you helping me bring Bill to the world. So, Tim, you go and put some butter on something.

• 2:39:12Jim Collins?

  Don't slide, if you like to do a lot of it, I will do the same.

• 2:39:18Tim Ferriss?

  That is, that is on my, my top three to do's for 2021 is put butter on everything. The theme, the theme is fun.

• 2:39:28Jim Collins?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:29Tim Ferriss?

  Self renewal. And Jim, well, thank you so much for, for spending so much time today. And for everyone listening, as usual, you can find links to everything that has been mentioned from the Old Man Project, which was dropped as a gem at the end, a little Easter egg, to the new book, to everything in between, in the show notes at timdublog forward slash podcast, just search Jim Collins and it will pop right up. And until next time.

• 2:39:58Jim Collins?

  Until next time, my friend. Take care.

• 2:40:00Tim Ferriss?

  Get some butter on some waffles.

• 2:40:02Jim Collins?

  All right.

• 2:40:02Tim Ferriss?

  Thanks for listening. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered, it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the, the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.

• 2:40:47Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.

• 2:41:06Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Tonal, T-O-N-A-L. I'm super excited about this one, and I was skeptical of it in the beginning. "Tonal, quote, 'Tonal is the world's most intelligent home gym and personal trainer,' end quote." That's the tagline from their website, folks, to give you the one-sentence summary. And this device, it's really a system, is perfect for anyone looking to take their home workouts to the next level, or someone who just wants to get maximum bang for the buck in a tiny, tiny footprint of space. Tonal is precision-engineered to be the world's most advanced strength studio and personal trainer. It uses breakthrough technology of all different types to help get you stronger faster. I was introduced to Tonal by three different friends. All of them are tech-savvy.

• 2:41:48Tim Ferriss?

  One of them is a former competitive skier who's doubled his strength in a number of movements using Tonal, even though he has a long athletic background. And I'll paint a picture for you. By eliminating traditional metal weights, dumbbells and barbells, Tonal can deliver 200 pounds of resistance, which doesn't sound like a lot, but it's actually, it feels like a lot more at the high end, in a device smaller than a flat-screen TV. And you can perform at least 150 different exercises. And these different technologies are exclusive to Tonal. You can dial weights up and down with the touch of a button in one-pound increments using magnets and electricity. So the movement is extremely smooth, and even though I have a home gym already in my garage, I'm still getting a Tonal installed.

• 2:42:33Tim Ferriss?

  I've used Tonal for multiple workouts now to do things I just cannot do in my home gym, such as the chop-and-lift exercises from the 4-Hour Body, all sorts of cable exercises that would usually involve much, much bigger piece of equipment. Eccentric training. For instance, you can do, to give a simple example, bicep curls, where you are lifting, let's just say, 20 pounds in each hand up, and then Tonal will automatically increase the weight, because you can lower more than you can lift, to say, 25 or 30 pounds on the way down. And I do kettlebell swings, I do all sorts of deadlifts, this, that, and the other thing. And after one workout on Tonal focusing on pulling, I was blasted for a full

• 2:43:16Tim Ferriss?

  Week. It's really incredible what you can do with Eccentrics. They also have all sorts of other really, really cool advantages that you can apply to any of your favorite movements. Tonal learns from your strength and provides suggested weight recommendations for every move with detailed progress reports to help you see your strengths grow. Tonal also has a growing library of expert-led workouts by motivating coaches from strength training to cardio. So you can do really just about everything. Every program is personalized to your body using artificial intelligence and other aspects of the engineering. And smart features check your form in real time, just like a personal trainer. So, check it out. Try Tonal, T-O-N-A-L, the world's smartest home gym for 30 days in your home. And if

• 2:43:57Tim Ferriss?

  you don't love it, you can return it for a full refund. Visit www.tonal.com, T-O-N-A-L.com. For a limited time, get $100 off of smart accessories when you use promo code TIM21. Like I'm ready for my first drink at checkout. That's www.tonal, T-O-N-A-L.com, promo code TIM21, T-I-M-21. Tonal, be your strongest.

• 2:44:27Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by GiveWell.org. Tis the season of giving, isn't it? And you've got a few weeks left to make your charitable donations before we close the books on 2020. This is why I encourage you to check out GiveWell.org. For more than 10 years, GiveWell.org has helped donors find the charities and projects that save and improve lives most per dollar. Here's how. GiveWell dedicates more than 20,000 hours a year to researching charitable organizations and handpicks a few of the highest impact, evidence-backed charities. I recommend GiveWell.org, and they shared a note with me, which is just incredible. And here it is, quote, "Here are the data," they sent me a spreadsheet, "we have from organic donations that cited Tim over the past few years. Transactions that specifically

• 2:45:11Tim Ferriss?

  cited Tim Ferriss sum to $133,044.4. We estimate that those donations will save 15 to 24 lives." How did this happen? I suspect that a lot of these donations came from my interview with Will McCaskill, who really knows what he's talking about when it comes to effective giving. He's a philosopher, ethicist, and one of the originators of the effective altruism movement. He is an associate professor in philosophy at Oxford. That is the University of Oxford and a researcher at the Global Priorities Institute at Oxford, just a great guy overall. And in our podcast together, he recommended GiveWell by far as one of the best places to give if you want to make an impact, especially if you're busy. It came to his mind immediately. All of their research is publicly available

• 2:45:54Tim Ferriss?

  for free on their website. And more importantly, GiveWell never takes any fees, so all of your tax deductible donations are given to the charity you choose. Since 2010, GiveWell has helped more than 50,000 donors direct more than $500 million to the most effective charities. These donations will save more than 75,000 lives and improve the lives of millions more. So if you want to have the best bang for buck, each dollar you put in to have the greatest impact, this is just one of the fastest, easiest ways to hone in on the best options, the highest leverage options. This year, you can support the charities that save and improve lives most with GiveWell. If you want your donation to have even more

• 2:46:36Tim Ferriss?

  impact, you can act soon. Any of my listeners, that's you guys, who become new GiveWell donors will have their first donation matched up to $250 when you go to givewell.org/tim and select Podcast and Tim Ferriss at checkout. This matching offer is good for as long as the funds last, could go quickly, so check it out. This is a special chance for even a small donation to make a big impact. Get your first donation matched up to $250 when you go to givewell.org/tim and select Podcast and Tim Ferriss at checkout. One more time, definitely check it out. GiveWell.org/tim.