From the Archives: Vanessa Williams: From Miss America to Miranda Priestly

There is bouncing back after adversity, and then there is: Vanessa Williams. The talented multi-hyphenate was only 21 years old when she became the first Black woman to be crowned Miss America. Yet a controversy surrounding the release of unauthorized nude photos led to her ultimately relinquishing her title 10 months into her reign. When doors were closed to her following the scandal, she fought her way back to an impressive and decorated career: Williams built decades of success as an actor and recording artist, selling 25 million records worldwide, starring in over 100 roles in television, film, and on Broadway - and being nominated for a Tony and multiple Emmy and Grammy Awards. Vanessa Williams speaks with host Alec Baldwin about the death threats she received after she won Miss America, how the work of Stephen Sondheim inspires the type of art she wishes to make, and what it’s like working with Elton John on her next big project. Originally aired April 16, 2024 See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:36Speaker 02

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• 1:54Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio. If I were to share with you the greatest show business comeback story in history, you might not believe it, but it's all true. My guest today was the very first black woman to be crowned Miss America, only to resign following the release of unauthorized nude photos. In the years after the scandal, she reinvented herself, building an impressive and decorated career. She released chart topping music, performed on Broadway and starred in television and film. It could only be Vanessa Williams.

• 2:37Alec Baldwin?

  Her work has earned her three Emmy nominations, 11 Grammy nominations, and a Tony nomination. She's the recipient of a Billboard Music Award and multiple NAACP Image Awards. I wanted to know how her upbringing in New York affected her trajectory and her goals.

• 2:57Speaker 04

  I was born in Tarratown and grew up in, one year in the Bronx and then up here in Westchester in Millwood, which is about five miles from where I live right now.

• 3:08Alec Baldwin?

  And your parents were both taught arts? They were art teachers?

• 3:12Speaker 04

  Music teachers.

• 3:13Alec Baldwin?

  Music.

• 3:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, my dad was band teacher in Elmsford and my mom was the choral teacher in Osning at Claremont School. So my dad was 42 years, my mom is 38 years there.

• 3:24Alec Baldwin?

  How many siblings you have?

• 3:26Speaker 04

  One younger brother, who is an actor as well. He's out in LA. He's four years younger.

• 3:32Alec Baldwin?

  Just one, you and the brother?

• 3:33Speaker 04

  Yep, that's it.

• 3:35Alec Baldwin?

  And both of you went into the arts?

• 3:36Speaker 04

  Yes. My brother, he's done like Dodgeball, he's done Larry David's Herbie Enthusiasm.

• 3:44Alec Baldwin?

  Historical dramas. He's done historical dramas, yeah. Dodgeball. That's history.

• 3:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:51Alec Baldwin?

  But he's been at it for a while?

• 3:52Speaker 04

  He's been at it for a while, yes.

• 3:54Alec Baldwin?

  Now, why the East Coast for you?

• 3:57Speaker 04

  I did live in the West Coast from 85 to 92.

• 4:01Alec Baldwin?

  Because you were working.

• 4:03Speaker 04

  I was working, I kind of left after having a struggling here in New York, you know, after being Miss America and then the scandal and then trying to, you know, make my way on Broadway. And I tell a story in my book, which is called You Have No Idea, which basically is a chronicle of my recollection and my mom's kind of side by side. In the book, I talk about one particular instance where Mike Nichols was directing Tommy Tune and Twiggy in my one and only on Broadway. And Mike Nichols reached out to me, he said he wanted me to replace Twiggy because he knew that I was a musical theater gal.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  And met him, had a wonderful meeting, did the audition. Tommy taught me all the tap. Did the audition, went well, perfectly, left the theater. And Mike turned around to Lee Gershwin, who was the head of the estate and Iris' widow, and said, wasn't she terrific? Thumbs up. And then he walked back downstage and the phone was ringing by the time he got to the bottom of the stage. And it was Lee Gershwin who said to Mike Nichols, over my dead body, will that whore be in my show? And that was 1985.

• 5:23Alec Baldwin?

  The year after the incident.

• 5:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, 84, 85. They wanted me to go in right after. So I didn't know exactly what she had said. I knew that I didn't get it, but I knew that I crushed the audition. And Paul Martino was my agent at the time at ICM. So it was kind of a soft, not this time. But I could feel like, okay, this has nothing to do with talent. This is way bigger and it's going to be much harder than I anticipated.

• 5:50Alec Baldwin?

  Well, now that you've pivoted in that direction, we were going to get there. No, no, no, no, no. I was going to talk about your bucolic Westchester upbringing. And instead, we're having Gershwin's relatives calling you a whore.

• 6:03Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 6:03Alec Baldwin?

  Let's stop there now. Hold on. Let me catch up. But now that you bring it up, I want to say. You are someone who I'm a great admirer of yours and I want to back it up a little bit, which is when you become Miss America, so it's a national competition, I remember these Miss Universe contestants, where I always felt that the people in some of these foreign countries, because their countries are so maybe economically, you know, less advantaged than America, you'd see some of these women winning these awards in these international competitions, and you think they're going to choke to death how much they're crying. They're like, oh my god, they can't believe they've won, it's this big deal to them. What was the roots of you becoming Miss America? Was it a goal for you? What did you think it represented? How did that happen?

• 6:48Speaker 04

  Well, you talk about bucolic roots and the Miss America pageant itself was a bathing suit pageant on the boardwalk in Atlantic City back in the day. So, and it was still run by volunteers in Atlantic City yearly. So, it wasn't this huge, huge corporation and corporate thing. And I only learned that once I ended up winning. The roots of it was I was a Syracuse musical theater major, Aaron Sorkin was one of my classmates, by the way. And my freshman year is your core year, you can't do anything. So sophomore year, I started performing. So I was in the Golden Apple, I did Frank Lesser's Swingin'

• 7:33Speaker 04

  on a Star, I was down at Syracuse stage with the Repertory Theater, and they were doing a production of a Cyrano de Bergerac, which I auditioned for, and I got the part of the Orange Girl, which was, you know, a tiny little part, but it would have gotten me equity points. So, I was supposed to do that after doing all these productions my sophomore year. And the local Miss Syracuse pageant kind of scouts their talent at the university. So, a couple of board members had seen me in shows, and one of my friends, a board member, would you be interested in being in the Syracuse pageant? I said, no, absolutely not, I'm not going to do it. Cyrano got canceled, I had April free, I called my mom and said,

• 8:16Speaker 04

  listen, do you think I should do this Syracuse pageant? Pageant thing, is there money? I said, yes, because I'd gotten scholarships the previous two years. And she said, go for it. So my parents didn't even come to the pageant. I bought a bathing suit down at Sibley's Department Store in downtown Syracuse.

• 8:32Alec Baldwin?

  My cousin worked at Sibley's.

• 8:34Speaker 04

  You're kidding?

• 8:34Alec Baldwin?

  My mom is from Syracuse.

• 8:36Speaker 04

  Okay. So that's where I got my stuff. And I sang a song from my performance class. My friend, Tim Thayer, played piano for me. I did a "Being Good Isn't Good Enough" from "Hallelujah Baby" that I performed in class. And I ended up winning swimsuit talent and I won Miss Greater Syracuse. So that was April of my sophomore year. Then I was on the way to States in July, three months later. And, you know, I'm 20 years old. And I sing the same song, wear the same clothes and win that. Same, Tim's playing for me, same deal, and I win that. So within three months, I'm already headed to Atlantic City. And the local pageant gal wants to change my song to something more familiar.

• 9:20Speaker 04

  So I sang "Happy Days Are Here Again," the Barbra Streisand version. Got an upgrade on my gown and swimsuit.

• 9:28Speaker 04

  And I ended up winning all within six months. So I literally had no intention of ever being Miss America, being in the pageant. And here I was, getting ready for my junior year abroad in London, already paying, put my deposit, my girlfriend was, my roommate was already waiting for me. And I ended up winning. So my first question when I won was, now what do I do? And, ah, now I can't go to London. So.

• 9:53Alec Baldwin?

  So if you're a super bright and talented woman and you end up in that universe, not that there's anything wrong with it, but you end up in the universe, like you said, what do I do now? How soon after you were crowned did the scandal come?

• 10:07Speaker 04

  Well, it didn't come until, I had been Miss America for 10 months. I had literally two weeks vacation and a month left. So, but I think the biggest, biggest jolt for me, being a New Yorker at 20 years old, living in Westchester, growing up in Westchester, you know, being surrounded by different cultures and my parents living through the civil rights movement, making a better life for me. That was the first time I really experienced racism on a national level. And I guess, you know, being in this area-

• 10:41Alec Baldwin?

  Because you won or because of the scandal or both?

• 10:43Speaker 04

  Because I won, because I won. This is no scandal at all. This was just me being black at 20 years old, September of 1983. Death threats. When I had my welcome home parade here, they had to have sharpshooters on the roofs of buildings because of their threats like that. And again, I was, I was so, I guess naive because I assumed that 1983, we're past all that stuff and we lived in a world that was-

• 11:10Alec Baldwin?

  One would assume, yeah.

• 11:11Speaker 04

  One would assume. So that was a big slap in the face and a big maturity kick in the pants for me.

• 11:18Alec Baldwin?

  Where was any moment, I mean, maybe I'm naive, but where was any moment of someone coming up to you and saying, here's the negatives, here's the pictures, you can have them, just give me tickets to every show you're in for the rest of your life. You know what I mean? That type of thing. Never one gesture.

• 11:33Speaker 04

  Not, not even one gesture. It was all betrayal. I mean, I never pretended that I was perfect. I certainly, I was the first Miss America that was pro ERA, pro choice. So I was ruffling feathers from the get-go.

• 11:47Alec Baldwin?

  You mean you weren't a virgin when you were Miss America?

• 11:50Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 11:50Alec Baldwin?

  Good God, how dare-

• 11:51Speaker 04

  No, I wasn't.

• 11:52Alec Baldwin?

  Oh, no. Go ahead.

• 11:56Speaker 04

  So I think the betrayal is what hurt me the most because, again, growing up in this small little town and a quick, brief history of how these pictures ever became. I used to have the Penny Saver magazine, which we would look for, summer jobs in the summer. And one summer, there was a modeling registry in town, not an agency, that should have been the first clue, but a registry. And I said, well, let me go in and see whether I can be a model for the summer. And he said, well, it's going to cost this amount of money for the pictures portfolio, but I need a makeup artist. So if you want to be a receptionist and a makeup artist for the shoots. So that's what my summer job was. And ended up getting convinced later on, later in the summer, you know what?

• 12:41Speaker 04

  I've got an idea, I'd love to shoot you, nobody will see them, they'll be in silhouette, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that horseshit. Then, after I win, apparently, he started shop, and I'd never signed a, a, a release for any of these photos. So he started shopping them around, apparently tried to reach out to my mother, which she doesn't remember. Then he started shopping them around, and he went to Hugh Hefner first, and Hugh said, "Do you have a release?" And he said, "No." And he said, "Well, I'm not gonna do that to this woman."

• 13:09Alec Baldwin?

  How decent of you, Hugh.

• 13:10Speaker 04

  And then, he goes to Guccione, and Guccione's like, "Hell, yeah, bring him." So, yeah, so that was, uh, so the biggest shock was, I went to crown the new Miss New York in Watertown, New York, Friday the 13th of July, and, uh, the New York Post called about Geraldine Ferrara and wanted to know what I felt about her being the first woman on the ticket. Great, women power, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he said, "Oh, by the way, I heard from a reliable source that you're gonna be on the cover of Penthouse Magazine in September." And I was truly shocked. I said, "I have no idea what you're talking about." He said, "Well, it's a really reliable source." I said, "I don't know what you're talking about." He said, "Okay, then I won't print it." Hung up the phone, called my parents, and I was like, "I don't know what's going on,

• 13:55Speaker 04

  but I need some help." And one of our family friends became my lawyer, and then it all, all the shit hit the fan. And then I was given, like, a two-week decision whether they were gonna take the crown away or whether I wanted to resign. And I had a whole contingency of people that wanted me to, to fight for the crown.

• 14:12Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  So when I, the, the day of my press conference, there were people saying, "Fight for it, fight with, with..." I mean, it was, it was insane.

• 14:19Alec Baldwin?

  And why didn't you?

• 14:20Speaker 04

  'Cause I just wanted to get, you know, move on, move on.

• 14:25Alec Baldwin?

  I mean, this really upsets me, 'cause we've all had our times in the dunk tank here.

• 14:31Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

• 14:32Alec Baldwin?

  How long did the downtime last before you start to crawl out of this and the wreckage of this and start to work again? And who's calling you? Who's reaching out? Who's the first person to say, "Come make a movie with me or do a show with me"?

• 14:44Speaker 04

  Well, it took me 10 years to get on Broadway. So if the scandal hit in 84, in 1994 is when I got a chance to be in Kiss of the Spider Woman on Broadway. So that was a good 10-year run.

• 14:56Alec Baldwin?

  Who was the cast then?

• 14:57Speaker 04

  That was Chita Rivera, and I stepped in after her one-year run, and she went on the road and I took over. So that was glorious for me to finally say, okay, this is what I meant to be, and this is where I am. And my parents were just elated to see me, you know, have my dream come true. But prior to that, which is interesting, I'd gotten a lot of, a lot of inquiries for like crap. Or they wanted to meet me just to say they could meet me. So I, there was a lot of auditions that I went, and I was like, they're really not going to cast me. They just want to say, oh, guess who we got in the room today? I think the first thing I did was a Partners in Crime, which was, which was with Lonnie Anderson and Linda Carter.

• 15:38Speaker 04

  And we shot it in San Francisco, and I was Rozelle Robbins, who is a singer, and I got a chance to record a couple of songs and do a number and stuff. So, you know, they were, there were opportunities to kind of, you know, jump on all the publicity that were happening.

• 15:57Alec Baldwin?

  But 84 to 94, what did you do?

• 15:59Speaker 04

  I did television. I did, One Man Band was an off-Broadway show. Willa Shallett, Jean Shallett's daughter, was one of the producers, and she and James Lassine was the one-man band, and they believed in me and said, we'll give you a shot. So that was off-Broadway. And from there, I went to LA because it was just, I want to do theater and the doors were closed. So, you know, I, I was on TJ Hooker, I did The Love Boat, you know?

• 16:24Alec Baldwin?

  You're naming all my bread and butter here.

• 16:27Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 16:28Alec Baldwin?

  You know what's funny? In the, in the brief time we've talked, you remind me of Pacino. When I interviewed Pacino, I interviewed him for school. In order to go back to NYU and graduate, I had to do a term paper about the applicability of method acting training to an actor who still had a real career in film, TV, and theater. So I interviewed Al for like eight or nine hours at his house up in Westchester. And every time I would talk to him about movies, he'd change the subject. All he wanted to talk was theater. All you want to talk about is theater. Isn't it interesting, you shift, you pivot to theater all the time? That's where your heart is?

• 17:01Speaker 04

  Well, that's where my training was and that was my, my goal, you know, growing up. But believe me, my recording has kind of backdoored me into theater. And again, being a recording artist, I mean, uh, nobody wanted to sign me. And then when I got signed, you know, they would say, well, the competition is really over here. So my whole career is like, oh, I didn't know she could do that. Oh, hmm, I didn't know she could do that.

• 17:27Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 17:27Speaker 04

  And, um, my biggest hit, Save the Best for Last, which was, uh, number one on the charts for five weeks straight, was a song that, that Midler and Barbra Streisand both turned down their people. And I got it and, and I said, I'll, I'll take it. I don't know what, it's not sloppy seconds. I don't know what, what thirds are, but I'll, I'll take it.

• 17:46Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 04

  Cause I knew that there was something there that I could, you know?

• 17:49Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah. Our careers are built on the guy that passed on the project. I can tell you the names of people that passed on Hunt for Red October. But it's interesting to me how, by the way, do you teach, you ever teach?

• 17:59Speaker 04

  I teach at NYU, but I teach in their, in their vocal performance and songwriting. Yes.

• 18:04Alec Baldwin?

  Perfect, perfect, perfect.

• 18:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:05Alec Baldwin?

  When I would teach, I'd say to people, do anything, do everything. Don't be cute about it. Don't be precious about what you do. I was doing a soap opera in New York and I would walk over to this, you know, back in the Pleistocene era when we had no internet. And I would go over to the NYU Film School to the casting board. It was a cork board with things pinned up there and would say, wanted actor 20 to 25 to play a bartender in this thing we're going to shoot Saturday and Sunday on the weekend. This bar is closed. And I was doing this soap opera, I think it was kind of spotty in the beginning of it. So I go on the weekends, on my weekends to go do this movie. And it's, you know, this horrible independent film. But my point I say to people is don't turn your nose up on anything when you're first starting.

• 18:49Speaker 04

  Absolutely. It makes, you never know what skillset you'll need to tap into on, you know, if, if, when you get a gig, you know? And meeting fascinating people and learning, I, that's what I tell, never stop asking questions, never stop learning and being curious, cause that's exciting, but makes you more exciting. It makes you, the life way more. Satisfying when, you know, you haven't, you know, you're at a dinner party and you're talking to somebody that you never thought you'd be able to talk to. Then that's the great thing about our profession. I've been lucky as Miss America, I've met seven presidents in my lifetime already. And those opportunities of going to the White House and dinner and sitting in the

• 19:30Speaker 04

  receiving line when it was Reagan, actually, that was the first big deal when I was crowned. Reagan called me and said it was a great thing for our country. So that was like the first huge moment of my, my reign as Miss America. But I remember going to the White House dinner, October 18th, 1983. And in the lineup was Ginger Rogers, Halston, Martha Graham. And I was like, oh, my God. These are legends. And they were just, you know, I sat next to Sonny Jorgensen, the football player.

• 20:04Alec Baldwin?

  Sonny Jorgensen.

• 20:05Speaker 04

  Jorgensen, yes, yes. He was at my table. My mother's like, get the president's autograph on the menu like a mom. And I did, I have it.

• 20:13Alec Baldwin?

  That's why she's there. That's why your mom's there. To remind you of those things you've forgotten.

• 20:17Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 20:23Alec Baldwin?

  Vanessa Williams. If you enjoy conversations with talented Broadway artists, check out my episode with Audra McDonald.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  No one thought that I could find her voice with The Sopranos, trying to be Billie Holiday. The show opens and the first thing I do is sing. And you can tell that the audience is waiting to hear, is she gonna get it? And I would open my mouth and sing the first, "All I know is I'm in love with you." Sometimes I'd hear the audience gasp. And that's when I'd be like, okay.

• 20:51Speaker 05

  All I know is I'm in love with you.

• 21:03Alec Baldwin?

  To hear more of my conversation with Audra McDonald, go to hereisthething.org. After the break, Vanessa Williams shares how Stephen Sondheim's work taught her an important lesson about the type of art she wants to make.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by my friend, John Legend. How does music actually enter your mind?

• 21:52Speaker 06

  I'm not sure why or how the music comes to me, but I think people who love music and write music, our brains are just filled with music.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:02Speaker 06

  Like, we have listened to so much music, we've been a part of so much music. I think of the story that I want to tell, the mood that I want to create with the music, start playing chords, see where they lead me.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Sometimes, I'm just not even thinking about music, right? And I hear this little thing, and I go, oh, that could be this.

• 22:23Speaker 06

  You know, you just have to be ready for when the inspiration hits.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  It comes.

• 22:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 23:19Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

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  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

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  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 24:04Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. With her musical theater training, singing comes second nature to Vanessa Williams. She's released eight albums as a recording artist. Her track Colors of the Wind plays over the closing credits of the Oscar-winning soundtrack to Pocahontas. And this is Williams with the number one single, Save the Best for Last, from her album, The Comfort Zone.

• 24:54Alec Baldwin?

  I wanted to know how she got her start in the recording industry.

• 24:59Speaker 04

  Well, it was Ed Eckstein, who was Billy Eckstein's son. He got a new deal and a new label, part of the Polygram Company back in the day. So he was the one that believed in me because a lot of people thought that I sounded too Broadway or just thought that I'd be like a one-hit wonder. But he legitimately knew that I could have a singing career. And he was really instrumental in getting, you know, back then we had A&R Artists and Repertory. So, you know, great in curating songs, working with hungry young producers that were eager to have their songs written and performed. And so I really have to, him and my ex-husband, who ended up, he was my publicist when I was resigned as Miss America.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  He then started to manage me because I asked him. He was the only person that I really trust that knew my, knew my talent, but also knew about me as my character and obviously loved me. So it was the two of them that said, you know, let's do this. Let's make her a legitimate recording artist. And I had a great run on Polygram and then I've been, I'm actually about to release, it's been 15 years since my last album, but I'm releasing new music in April. So back in the studio, dancing again, making videos and making me feel young again. And actually, the song is called Legs, which is about, which was inspired by Diane Carroll, wrote her book called The Legs of the Last to Go. And I remember watching her at Oprah and

• 26:28Speaker 04

  she was talking about everything kind of decays and falls and sags, but damn it, those legs are strong. They're still holding me up and they're still, I can still show them off in a miniskirt. They're still the last thing that I'm holding on to.

• 26:40Alec Baldwin?

  Elaine Stritch had great legs.

• 26:42Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 26:42Alec Baldwin?

  Who played my mother on 30 Rock. And I used to go, Jesus Christ, look at her. Now let me ask you this also, which is that you've been married three times, but when you're someone who can certainly take care of themselves, you're a tough woman. You're smart, you're beautiful, you're talented and you're tough. And we said, when you get married, why do you get married? Why?

• 27:01Speaker 04

  Cause I'm a romantic. I don't know. I do. And I, and I think that I see the best in what I can be and what we can be. And then I get disappointed on the future that I thought it was going to be and didn't turn out for it to be.

• 27:20Alec Baldwin?

  As my friend says, he goes, and then we turn the lights on. And we see everything as it really is.

• 27:25Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 27:26Alec Baldwin?

  It's always like, like when we get married, why did we get married? Like, well, I think the marriage question is always for someone who is as self-sufficient as you, and I would imagine me, like, you know, do I have needs emotionally? I always think about in this business, because marriage is so tough in this business. What was it like for you as a mom?

• 27:45Speaker 04

  Oh, I brought my kids everywhere.

• 27:47Alec Baldwin?

  Everywhere.

• 27:47Speaker 04

  So I've got, I've got four kids. So I had my first three with my first husband and then my, my last one with my second husband. But I mean, I, I got married. So the scandal, I was 20 as a, when I won Miss America, 21 when the scandal hit, ended up getting married at 23. And partly, not only because we were a unit, my, my ex and I, trying to build our life and career together, but I, that's what I could control. I could control my family. I couldn't control my career. I couldn't depend on people.

• 28:19Alec Baldwin?

  Something you could rely on.

• 28:20Speaker 04

  Exactly. So.

• 28:21Alec Baldwin?

  What kind of work did he do?

• 28:23Speaker 04

  He was a publicist. He used to, he was, worked at Rogers and Cowan back in the day.

• 28:28Alec Baldwin?

  I remember, I was with Rogers and Cowan.

• 28:29Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he was the first black senior vice president back in the day. And he was 13 years older than me. So my kids are very cringey now. They're like, ah, Mom, how could you?

• 28:39Alec Baldwin?

  Oh, you see my kids.

• 28:40Speaker 04

  You were 21, he was in his 30s.

• 28:41Alec Baldwin?

  Want to know what my son said the other day? He walks up to me, I'm in bed. I'm just barely waking up. My son Romeo walks in, he goes, Dad, are you gonna die? And I go, no, no, I'm not gonna die. I mean, you have to lie to them. I go, no, I'm not gonna die. He goes, but you're gonna be like 85 and then you're gonna die. I go, no, I'm not gonna die. Don't even think about that. Then there's a pause, he goes, could you give Mom your Apple passcode? Can I give Mom my Apple passcode? How old is the range of your kids now? They're how old?

• 29:11Speaker 04

  So Melanie is 36, Jillian is 34, Devon, my son, is 30, and then Sasha's 23.

• 29:18Alec Baldwin?

  And where are the three older ones? Are they in the biz?

• 29:20Speaker 04

  So my oldest, uh, works in Westchester in the city. She's a Pilates instructor. My middle is a singer and she gave me a beautiful grandchild who I, who's two years old. And so she has her own career and her name of her band is called Lion Babe. And my son works out in LA. He's in the fashion industry. And then my youngest is writing music and she's got four singles out on. Apple and Spotify and all that stuff. So two in the business and two not. But they're all, I'm really proud of them and they're doing what they love and doing what they're good at and, and I love having them home. That's the best.

• 30:00Alec Baldwin?

  And are you finally, after three trips to the plane here, are you finally done with this romantic thing of yours?

• 30:07Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 30:07Alec Baldwin?

  You are.

• 30:08Speaker 04

  I, I think, I think I am done.

• 30:10Alec Baldwin?

  Boyfriends are good. Boyfriends are good.

• 30:12Speaker 04

  Boyfriends are good and, and I'm fine being by myself. I travel so much, I have so many opportunities. I, you know, I would, love is fun and exciting. Sex is great, haven't had in years, but waiting for that to happen again. But I, I, you know, I don't have people throwing themselves at me, propositioning me. It's not as, it's not as easy as you would think.

• 30:37Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah. But, but, but let me just say this also, which is that with someone with your theater background and your great success in the theater, have you ever thought about doing a one woman show?

• 30:47Speaker 04

  I have thought about it.

• 30:48Alec Baldwin?

  Take credit for it, it's a great idea.

• 30:50Speaker 04

  You're right. Are you gonna come on as producer?

• 30:52Alec Baldwin?

  No, I'm not kidding, you should. When Springsteen did that show.

• 30:56Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 30:57Alec Baldwin?

  And you realize that the music is obviously there and what people were waiting for, what was he gonna say about his life and himself? And people would just die. I mean, they loved that Springsteen show. But for you to be you and to combine those things, you singing and you performing and then telling stories about all the stuff you went through and where you are now, that would be a hit show.

• 31:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, I have to, James Lapine asked me to do Sondheim and Sondheim in 2010. And that was the format that it was, mixed media. It was all interviews of Sondheim and then, you know, with us singing. And one of the strongest moments in that show was when they cut to Sondheim and he's talking about, a telegram was brought to his home and he opened it and it was a letter from his mother saying, "I'm about to go into surgery for Heart My Heart. I just want to say the only regret in my life was giving birth to you." And you could hear, "Oh." And then, and then he said, and then I knew that it wasn't about me. She couldn't give me love. It had nothing to do with me. It had to do with her. And then the

• 32:01Speaker 04

  stage starts to rotate and we started saying, careful the things you say, children will listen. And then you hear the sobs of people just sniffling because you realize those words turned into his art. He gave us everything because of that, that relationship that he could never crack that nut. So those are the moments, I mean, I want, if I'm going to do a one woman show, I want that moment. I want to be able to have the audience in my hands so they can see my pain, you know, turned into art. They can see my triumph turned into art. So it's delicate and it really is, you know, a specific task.

• 32:46Alec Baldwin?

  Vanessa Williams, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeart Radio app, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Vanessa Williams shares with us the joy of working with Sir Elton John.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.

• 33:32Speaker 11

  Man, I'm a black and Mexican kid from San Pedro, and I grew up in Inglewood as well. I never liked to be like boxed in. Both of my parents colored outside of the line. I mean, even them being together at the time in LA was just not typical. And so I think that has always been a part of my DNA. There's a defiant something in me that feels like. What we get to do with what we're given that's greater than us is to maybe connect people to ideas that they wouldn't naturally, you know, connect to. That's really me. I'm just kind of like defiant with love, though.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:17Speaker 12

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• 34:48Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Ashkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 35:03Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 35:13Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 35:19Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 35:25Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 35:48Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Theater and music are not Vanessa Williams' only strengths. The triple threat has also been featured in over 100 TV and film roles highlighting her impressive range. I wanted her to share how she approached her different roles on Ugly Betty and Desperate Housewives.

• 36:11Speaker 04

  Well, Ugly Betty was one of those shows where we were gonna be a Friday night, kind of for chicks, because they didn't really believe that we had what it took. And we did the TCA's, the Television Critics Awards panel. And after we finished our panel-

• 36:30Alec Baldwin?

  In Pasadena.

• 36:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, in Pasadena. And they said, "Ugly Betty," they said, "You guys are the hit of the season. You guys are the best thing that we've seen." So we knew that the critics liked us. And then when we finally, when we got so much momentum, they changed us to Thursday night, right before Grey's Anatomy, and that kind of gave us, yeah, that blew us up. We won the Golden Globe that year. But we, you know, it was like doing a feature film every episode, because we had so much production value and costumes and runways and all kinds of fantastical stuff. It was long Fridays, Fridays turning into Saturdays, but we loved it and we loved each other. And we loved our script readings, because we never knew, especially I never knew what I was gonna be doing the following week.

• 37:16Speaker 04

  What, I'm pitching to Naomi Campbell in a softball game? What, I'm taking a baseball bat and smashing, you know, mannequins on the roof of some area? Oh, I'm having-

• 37:27Alec Baldwin?

  This is Ugly Betty.

• 37:28Speaker 04

  Yes, this is Ugly Betty. So it was amazing. So then going, by the time I got to Desperate Housewives, and the reason I got on Desperate Housewives is I was doing Sondheim on Sondheim, and Mark Cherry is a huge Sondheim fan, so much so that every episode of Desperate Housewives is a Sondheim song. That's how big is it?

• 37:49Alec Baldwin?

  I never knew that.

• 37:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, so-

• 37:51Alec Baldwin?

  I'm gonna go back and watch all of it now.

• 37:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:54Speaker 04

  So he saw me in Sondheim, Sondheim in Sondheim. And then I got a call like a week later, would she like to join our cast? And Nicolette was already gone.

• 38:04Alec Baldwin?

  They needed a cast addition. So you come and you shoot that. And I worship Felicity. I mean, I just love Felicity to death.

• 38:10Speaker 04

  Love her too.

• 38:11Alec Baldwin?

  I did a movie with Terry Hatcher. She came in to play Eric Roberts' wife. And you found that she was the drug lord in the operation. I played a cop. It was based on this famous book called Heaven's Prisoners that Phil Juano directed. And she was the villainous and none of us thought that she would really be able to get there in terms of the extremes of intensity and ugliness. And she was good. She was damn good. She's, she came in there and she was ready to hit and be hit and fight. And she was scrappy. And we did this movie, Heaven's Prisoners, and Terry was damn good in that movie. And I wanted to do a project with Felicity. How different was that experience?

• 38:48Speaker 04

  You know, I came in and they called me Switzerland because I had no beef with anybody. So I was friendly with everybody. I had worked with Terry Hatcher previously because we used to do these Radio Shack commercials back in the day. So it was Terry and Howie Long and me and Ving Rhames, the black and the white couple. And we would do, you know, product commercials for the Radio Shack together. So that's, I knew her from back in the day. But it was easy. And talking about clockwork, absolute in and out, easiest days. Mark would come and give us pretty much line readings across the board and then take off to the writer's room. So we all knew what was going on, even though there might be.

• 39:31Alec Baldwin?

  Very hands on.

• 39:32Speaker 04

  Yes, very, very hands on.

• 39:34Alec Baldwin?

  You only do that, are you recurring? Couple of years of recurring? I'm not sure.

• 39:37Speaker 04

  No, I was, I was a lead for two, yeah, regular for two seasons and then they.

• 39:41Alec Baldwin?

  Were you killed?

• 39:42Speaker 04

  I guess, no, no, no, we, I got married and then the show was over.

• 39:46Alec Baldwin?

  You got killed. You got kidnapped. You got married. One of the three.

• 39:52Alec Baldwin?

  What are you working on now?

• 39:54Speaker 04

  I am about to go across the pond to do Devil Wears Prada on the West End.

• 39:59Alec Baldwin?

  I read that.

• 39:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, so Jerry Mitchell is directing and doing the choreography and Elton John's writing the music and he wrote two songs for me already, which is incredible. And it's all British cast over there and we're at the Dominion Theater. We open our first show.

• 40:13Alec Baldwin?

  You're playing Miranda Priestly.

• 40:15Speaker 04

  Yes, I am, yeah. October 24th, we start and I'll be there for, at least for a year. We're doing our out of town in Plymouth, which I guess is the southwest portion of England. So we're out of town end of June through mid-August.

• 40:33Alec Baldwin?

  So this is, they're workshopping this and working, this is new.

• 40:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:37Alec Baldwin?

  You're gonna create this role.

• 40:38Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 40:39Alec Baldwin?

  What is greater? What is more powerful and more, the thing you want in this business, the one thing you, especially if you can sing like you and dance, you want to create a role, an original role. How lucky are you?

• 40:53Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 40:54Alec Baldwin?

  Did you flip out when they told you that?

• 40:56Speaker 04

  Well, I knew that Jerry kind of gave me a heads up. They had done a production in Chicago a couple of years ago and it did not do well at all. Different cast, different director. And Kevin McCollum, the producer, called in Jerry and said, listen, I needed to see this, I needed to help me out. What do you think? And Jerry said, I will do it, but I want complete control, whole new team, and I want to make sure that Elton will write me some new music. And Elton was doing the Yellow Brick Road tour at the time, so he was, you know, really, really busy, but he promised and he did. So I had demos of Elton, you know, singing the new stuff. And then I got a chance to hear Jerry's vision and then when we were in the room for two

• 41:39Speaker 04

  weeks, Elton was so happy, said, I wanted to kill myself in Chicago, now I'm really, really happy. And just like, you know, just to give a little smidgen of what it's gonna look like. So Jerry said, in the other production, there was no fashion and it's about the world of fashion. So he's got all these built-in runway production numbers happening. In Act Two, when Miranda goes to Paris and they're trying to oust her, there's a song that she sings called Stay on Top. And we haven't, obviously, we haven't staged it yet, but he told me that what he's gonna do is, he has got a passerelle in front of the stage and we will be sitting as if we're sitting and watching a runway show.

• 42:20Speaker 04

  And I'll have my glasses on and he's gonna have the girls start and then have everybody freeze and have me start. You think that I can't see you, sitting there with glee. Eager for the ending you've been waiting years to see. Today she's getting ousted, yes. Her final hour's nigh. Miranda's reign has run its course. That's what you think. Oh, my. And then it goes into like a total banger. And it's like this techno, it's gonna be incredible.

• 42:53Alec Baldwin?

  Now, I wanna say, my God, I mean, here you are. It brings me to tears almost. Here you are, having to deal with, because when all of us deal with something painful in your career, when you fall down, they watch you fall down, but the first words out of their mouth after them is, what's he gonna do? I mean, I remember Michelle Pfeiffer had that great quote. She said, "The acting's free. You pay me for all the other crap I gotta put up with." You know, and I'm sure other people have said that. But when they knock you down, then they look at you and they're like, what's she gonna do? And to think that you're about to go do this project, this great, great project. Are they talking at all about when the opening would be? What month? In the fall?

• 43:33Speaker 04

  The opening night is December 1st, and that's, that coincides with Elton's big AIDS benefit ball. So we're doing a command performance for that, but

• 43:44Alec Baldwin?

  In London?

• 43:45Speaker 04

  In London, at the Dominion, yeah. But our first shows are October 24th. We start at the Dominion. Yeah.

• 43:51Alec Baldwin?

  I'm gonna go.

• 43:52Speaker 04

  Yeah. Come, come.

• 43:54Alec Baldwin?

  Anyway, I wanna say thank you. I am a huge fan of yours. I'm a huge fan of yours. You are this incredibly talented, you're so, you're such a bright and interesting and fantastic, beyond your physical beauty, you're just such a great actress.

• 44:11Speaker 04

  And we're fellow board members, too. I see you at the Roundabout Board, all of our board stuff. Yeah, yeah.

• 44:17Alec Baldwin?

  But you're, but I wish you the best of luck with this. When do you leave? You head over there when?

• 44:21Speaker 04

  Mid-May, we start rehearsals.

• 44:22Alec Baldwin?

  Thank you so much. My great pleasure. Thank you.

• 44:26Speaker 04

  Thank you, Alec. Thank you.

• 44:32Alec Baldwin?

  My thanks to Vanessa Williams. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeese and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. Here's the thing is recorded at CDM Studios in New York. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.

• 45:12Speaker 13

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 45:25Speaker 14

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair.

• 46:08Speaker 14

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• 47:47Speaker 00

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