Define the Win or You’ll Never Hit It | Ep 940

Welcome to The Game w/Alex Hormozi, hosted by entrepreneur, founder, investor, author, public speaker, and content creator Alex Hormozi. On this podcast, you’ll hear how to get more customers, make more profit per customer, how to keep them longer, and the many failures and lessons Alex has learned and will learn on his path from $100M to $1B in net worth. Wanna scale your business? ⁠⁠Click here.⁠⁠ Follow Alex Hormozi’s Socials: ⁠⁠LinkedIn ⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠YouTube ⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Acquisition ⁠

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Alex Hormozi?

  If you are not good at predicting what is going to happen next, life will be hard for you. And the better you get at predicting what's going to happen next, the more you will get what you want. And so then being able to predict what's going to happen requires an accurate framework of how reality works. And I think that that's where, you know, if you've lost everything and then you can rebuild it again, it's because you accurately view reality and it wasn't luck. You can redo it again. And so for me, I think a big part of it was like, I find like the most people don't know what they're saying most of the time. Like the vast majority of people spend their time regurgitating and re-parroting things that they never thought about. And so I think that the single greatest razor that I have

• 0:51Alex Hormozi?

  for defining reality more accurately has been removing all sentiment, emotion, and quote, "psychology" from the equation and only looking at it from a behaviorist frame of what can I observe?

• 1:11Speaker 01

  We put out a lot of content.

• 1:13Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, I do.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  And I can't imagine you at all, but you have helped a lot, I imagine.

• 1:17Alex Hormozi?

  So the reason that I think the brand has been consistent across the board is because I do. All content that goes out is me. So basically, anything that's written, I wrote, or is a transcription of something I said. So those are like, if I said it, I'll stand by it. And so like captions on Instagram are just tweets. LinkedIn posts are transcriptions and/or transcriptions plus tweets, or many tweets put together. But X is still my, my like core, that's like my, that's like my home base. X is where my source of truth and then everything kind of springs from X.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  So you put out two or three or four a day. You're like, you probably scroll the comments and you probably get inspiration like, oh, I've seen a lot of people say this thing.

• 1:59Alex Hormozi?

  Dude, no, not at all. So the only thing I use, only tool I use is a tool that allows me to schedule things in the future. Um, and so like I'll have a conversation with you and something will come up and I'll be like, oh, that was a pithy thing I just said. And then I'll just put it to whatever my next tweet, you know, moment is, and then it'll come out whenever it comes out. And so that's, that's like my, my tweet strategy. And then the team, when I do like the live streams or whatever, like the team's behind the camera here and you know, I've got one or two guys who's like taking notes. I'm like, oh, that was a cool thing you said. And then they'll send it to me afterwards. And then when I go and make tweets in bulk, which I do like every once in a while, they'll just send me a shitload of quotes that I've said, and then I'll just, you know, massage the edges and then post it.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  What percentage of your time per week is dedicated just on content creation?

• 2:48Alex Hormozi?

  So as of right now, I do one recording day a week, which is like four hours. Um, and then on weekends I spend about two hours on written. So six hours ish.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  And when you're sitting down to rice, do you ask yourself questions like, what's something that I learned today? Or I don't know.

• 3:06Alex Hormozi?

  No, not really. Um, it's, it's, it's, it, no, honestly not. Um.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  I just like, I think you chop does this as well. And you do this too. You talk in sound bites, but you use big in frameworks. I don't think like that at all. It does not come naturally to me. And whenever I hear you or we have a mutual friend, Ryan Dice.

• 3:28Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  And Ryan was like, he was like, make me feel like a jerk. He was like, you don't think in frameworks? Like, how do you learn something and then think how you're going to teach it to your team or whatever? I'm like, I don't know, man. I'm like a Neanderthal. Like I just kind of like flip by life sometimes. And I just like, I don't like reflecting fake in a framework.

• 3:46Alex Hormozi?

  I think frameworks happen when you have to reteach or reuse the same thought process over and over again. And so rather than re-deriving the same decision set, you create a framework to give yourself mental shorthand. And so I think it's just like, um, I, I created the scaling one, like you were at the implementation workshop, like the Mozzy six or whatever. Uh, it's like more metrics, market model, money. And then underneath the model, there's, you know, four offshoots. And then finally manpower. So it's like, these are the six reasons that people get limited in their business. Right? And that was because I had to think like, okay, I have done so many Q and A calls. There has to be, there is a decision tree. Like it might be more complex than I thought it was, but there is a decision tree that I'm going through. And so just actually crystallizing that.

• 4:31Alex Hormozi?

  And so you, you totally think in frameworks. You just haven't documented them. That's my, that's my two cents. That's my opinion.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Well, you had this cool, uh, like, I've been watching your, I think I told you the other day, I was watching your concept now on tactics of making money, but on tactics of leadership and management. And you had this cool thing called the diamond.

• 4:48Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, it's great.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Do you remember what it was?

• 4:50Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Do they not, do they not, oh, it was like basically for the listener, it was like, uh, you have an employee who's out doing what you want them to do. They're either, they don't know what you want done, they don't know how to do it, and they weren't motivated, or they don't know, I think, when they.

• 5:03Alex Hormozi?

  Or they've, yeah, or there's something blocking them, yeah.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  And when you come up with something like that, is that something that you make up? Or do you read other books and you steal like cool bits of inspiration and you re-crop some for your?

• 5:17Alex Hormozi?

  So, honest truth, I really don't read as much as I probably should. Um, most, almost all my stuff just comes from like me doing it and then saying, man, there's gotta be an easy way to describe this. Um, if I happen to come along some sort of, you know, if there's some coincidence, I see that as corroboration of an idea. But yeah, no, I really don't consume anyone else's stuff for, for like inspiration. I like, I have enough shit going on every day, I have tons of stuff to talk about. Um, and so, yeah, no, the, the management diamond was like, all right, fundamentally, people don't do stuff for a reason. I have to figure out what that reason is, and if there's a way that I can have a framework that I can have for this conversation that makes it less like, how do I not attack the person?

• 5:57Alex Hormozi?

  Right, rather than say like, you are the least piece of shit, it's like, that's, that's unlikely to be productive and also probably not the real cause of why they're not doing things. Cause most people do prefer to stay employed and also prefer to just, you know, do a good job, I think by and large. And so it's like, if, if we take that to be true and I want them to succeed and so do they, then like, what's getting in the way here? It's like, well, I didn't communicate that I wanted them to do this thing. Okay, well, that's on me. I didn't tell, like, I told them, but then they're like, cool, I don't know how to do that, that's a training issue. Okay, um, uh, you know, they, they, they didn't know there was a deadline associated with it, it's a when problem, right? Um, and then it's like, okay, well, they knew when to do it, they knew how to do it. Um, and then, uh, and they knew that I wanted them to do it, then it's like, okay, well then is there something blocking them?

• 6:38Alex Hormozi?

  Now, the motivation one of like, they're not motivated to, um, is like technically correct. But it's the last one that I'll go to because most times people are relatively motivated to do it. Now, mind you, there's definitely times when that's just not the case, right? Or the how component has a more, uh, generalized skill that someone doesn't have, so I'll, I'll say it differently, like.

• 7:02Alex Hormozi?

  If in order to do a role, my position is like, you've probably heard like attitude versus aptitude. And that used to bug me a lot because I was like, well, that can't always be what it is, right? Because it's really just that's there's, there's a deficiency in someone's skill set to enter an organization to do a role. And so we want to hire for the small skill deficiency. If you're hiring for what people consider low skill labor, so if you run an Airbnb and need maids, or you have a yogurt shop and you need to have people who do, you know, clean the counter and like check people out, that's very low skill technically. But in terms of hiring, you're going to hire for attitude, not aptitude. And that's just because the amount of skills required to train someone on attitude far outweigh the skills it takes to take somebody who's already friendly, knows how to show up on time,

• 7:44Alex Hormozi?

  can smile, say hello, make chit chat, uh, teach them how to use a cash register and clean the thing, could take like two hours. Like it's not a lot of training in order to do that role. And so it doesn't make sense to hire someone for uh, aptitude, like I've, I've worked a cash register before, but I'm a dick. It's like, well, that's not going to be very help, like I'm going to have to train you to not be a dick. It's not worth it. On the flip side, if you want to have the number one AI researcher in the world, if that guy's a bit of a dick, then you could probably work with him on being a little bit, you know, better at communicating with the team. You're not going to take the person who was, you know, the yogurt, yogurt store cashier register, assuming they take no, you know, they're not on the side doing all this stuff. Uh, and make them the number one AI researcher. And so it's like, we always just all should, at least in my opinion, hire for the person with a small skilled efficiency.

• 8:27Alex Hormozi?

  And then we have to ask the question as the business owner, given that skill deficiency, is it worth us or worth our resources to train them? And so I, I take the position that I think every skill is trainable. It's just, is it worth training? Like, are there other people I get higher returns on, in which case, great, I'll use them. And that for me is fundamentally like why I would say that over my career, the biggest change in terms of my hiring practices is I, I hire far more for general intelligence now. Um, it's like, yeah, I want someone who has just significantly higher horsepower.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Higher horsepower above attitude and above skill set.

• 9:02Alex Hormozi?

  Yes and no. So it's like, basically, the, the intelligence will allow someone to bridge the skill gap faster. And so it's a return on resources for where they are versus where they need to be, whether it's a quote attitude issue or quote hard skills issue. But I see soft skills and hard skills as just skills. When, you know, hard skills are easy to, easy to define and measure. Uh, soft skills are just hard to define and measure, but they still are definable and measurable. And so I want somebody who has high intelligence because I define intelligence as rate of learning. And so if I can get someone who has a high rate of learning versus somebody else, maybe that person starts a little bit behind, but in six months they're going to pass the other person who might have experience. And so, uh, again, it all depends on like what the timeline is. If I take a toddler, I can get them to be an adult in 18 years and be perfect, but I don't know if I have 18 years to wait.

• 9:47Alex Hormozi?

  And so, you know, that's, that's kind of my general rubric.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  When, uh, when you're hiring for smart people, how do you figure out what's smart?

• 9:55Alex Hormozi?

  The quality of the questions that they ask. So if someone said, hey, I noticed that you guys have this media brand here and you have this advisory practice here. Have you considered, what's revenue retention around that? Is there's another vehicle that you guys have considered that, you know, isn't in the pipeline right now? I'd be like, wow, that demonstrated that they did a fair amount of research and they were able to take a complex thought between these two things and, and ask me about it. So like, that's a great question. Whereas if someone says like, you know, what's the five year vision of the company? I don't see that as a bad question. Um, I just see that as like kind of a generic interview question someone might ask. And if that's not already answerable online, which, you know, the, the pros and cons of our situation, similar to you, is that a lot of my stuff is public.

• 10:40Alex Hormozi?

  And so I expect somebody to come in with better than generic questions because I've already answered generic questions publicly. If they ask quality questions and then, um, oh, when they deconstruct a problem that they're solving in terms of what they're thinking with. So the, I mean, this is, to be fair, this isn't like my invention, but like, uh, in the consulting world, people do cases for a reason, right? They want to hear how like, okay, if I need, how many, you know, how many ping pong balls fit on a seven forty seven, right? This is a common Question they would ask in, you know, a college interview, not because they care about the answer. They care about how you think through getting the answer because it demonstrates a level of horsepower.

• 11:13Alex Hormozi?

  And so for us, I would say a practice that acquisition.com we use as part of our higher level in leadership roles. Is we actually, instead of presenting them hypothetical cases, we actually present them with the real cases. And so, you know, worst case, we get free consulting. Best case, we get somebody who is capable of implementing that solution that they just came up with. And so if they can use frameworks that I wasn't aware of, experiences that I'm not aware of, those things will come out in that, you know, complex, you know, issue that we're dealing with. But it's also at least like way more interesting of an interview for me because now like they're solving my problem. So I'm like way more engaged.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  So does that be best like the hiring manager or maybe you would have, um, someone at the company has like a generic description of the company and what some of the numbers are. Maybe they're like fade numbers even. And then each role will have a specific problem that you need help solve a work company and they get like a Google Doc. Like you're in advance is like prepare your phone, send it to me in advance. I'm going to read it and.

• 12:13Alex Hormozi?

  So I'll differentiate this by level of role and type. And so I'm talking, because right now I'm like knee deep in like C level, like interviews. So that's like what I'm thinking with right now. Um, if we're trying to hire an editor or a salesperson, those are roles that are super repeated. And as a result, have incredibly structured, uh, you know, interview processes and whatnot. And so for those, like for a salesperson, for example, it's like, we're going to send a script to every candidate that we want to invite to a group interview first. And so they're going to get the script ahead of time and we want to hear them do, you know, a one minute, two minute soundbite of the script. So if they, if they didn't even take the time to like go through a few times, like they're going to sound horrible. And so immediately either they, they don't have the skill or they don't have the work ethic. Either way, we can weed those people out and we can tell within a couple of minutes.

• 12:58Alex Hormozi?

  So we don't need to waste a 30 minute call on somebody who's wants to be a salesperson. We can have 10 people on the call, one or two minutes. And we can find out if someone's got a little bit of game. Um, from there it's like, okay, then we'll say, hey, you messed this thing up, tweak it, try it again. When we do that, we get to see how coachable they are, how much ego they have, and how quickly they can learn intelligence. And so from there, we're like, great.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  I actually read a book that you suggested, the guy who.

• 13:23Alex Hormozi?

  HubSpot.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Did HubSpot Sales Team.

• 13:25Alex Hormozi?

  Yep.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Wrote that book.

• 13:26Alex Hormozi?

  Yep.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Uh, I, we do the same thing here.

• 13:28Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah. And it's, it's take, it's funny because like. It's like we ended up re-deriving the exact same interview process as the book and so it was very corroborating.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  He actually says that IQ is the is the number one, he's like charisma is important, but it's not the most important thing.

• 13:46Alex Hormozi?

  No.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Ability to learn quickly.

• 13:48Alex Hormozi?

  And I think part of that also because like they were selling to business owners and you know, so do we in most most of our portfolios B two B. And so like if if a salesperson is being like outgunned consistently by, you know, the people that they're getting on the phone with. The people on the phone feel like they're talking to somebody who's an idiot and can't actually help them solve their problem. And so, yeah, I think general intelligence is such an important part, but like honestly, it's it started there, but like I kind of just see it across the organization. Like, show me exceptional organizations that employ dumber people like it's, I mean, there are some. But especially in the in the in the work that we type that we do B two B and higher level. You need horsepower. So in terms of intelligence, like rate of learning. And we can actually demonstrate the learning on a small level and that works same thing with editors. We follow very similar process. Here's some raw footage.

• 14:34Alex Hormozi?

  Send us a clip back with your edit. We can look at just the final output. And that allows us to be more objective about like, some people don't present well, but that doesn't mean they're bad editors. And I think like interviewing itself is a skill, just like anything else. And I don't need somebody who's great at interviewing. I need somebody who's great at editing. Right. And so trying to pull that apart and something that Leila's taught me that's been really helpful like for me lately has been. She's like, some people are incredibly smart, but are not very good at communicating. And depending on depending on the role, they might not have as much need for that level of communication. And so that's where it gets a little bit more nuanced, but I want to be really clear.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  The other way around.

• 15:10Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, sure.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  They talk to people that are very charming.

• 15:13Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Communicate honorably and I'm like, I can't fall big into this.

• 15:19Alex Hormozi?

  Was it there's a it was a like always go for an ugly surgeon or something like that, like. There's some razor, I just wanted to put my little disclaimer out there, which is like, I by no means claim that we are perfect at hiring or anything like that. We just like everybody, we take our licks. But I'd say the hardest ones are always leadership because you have fewer, like, you might appreciate this. Whenever I, whenever I go to a room of entrepreneurs, I say, hey, who here is on more than, is on their second business or beyond? And like, almost the whole room raised their hands. I'm like, okay, cool. Now, of those of you who are on your second business and beyond, who here, your current business grew way faster or past your first businesses? And like, almost the entire room raised their hands. And I always think like, so why is that? And so I think that at the

• 16:02Alex Hormozi?

  most basic level, it's pattern recognition, but especially when it comes to talent. And so like, if you think about building like, let's say, a million dollar business, it's like, first you have us, you have some marketing function, you have some sales function, you have some delivery function, you know, whatever, you know, across the board. And for the first time ever, when, as soon as, you know, maybe million, maybe it's three million a year, whatever it is, like, it's not you anymore. Like, somebody else has to do some of this stuff. And so you, you get your first pattern recognition of like, oh, this is somebody who can do some advertising. This is some person who can do some sales. This is a person who can do some low level management. This is a person who can do some, you know, some delivery or whatever. And so, and you basically keep struggling and keep plateauing at that level until you find that one person who's like competent. And then you're like, oh

• 16:44Alex Hormozi?

  my God, you can do the job. This is amazing. And then the business grows until that next level, you know, that next train. And so then across the board by department, one by one, it's like, you have these six month, 12 month periods where you go through interviews and interviews and hiring and onboarding, just to see if this person's competent. And then whenever they're not, you're like, I have to start over again. And then the business basically stays where it's at. I think the more experience we've had on each of these roles of like, this is what, you know, SDR looks like, this is what SDR manager looks like, this is what a closer looks like, this is what a senior closer looks like, this is what a closing manager looks like, this is what, this is what a director of sales looks like, this is what a VP of sales looks like. Like, it took me time to learn each of these levels and obviously do that across departments. But then after that point, when you got these new, the new businesses you go after, you're not even building the business,

• 17:28Alex Hormozi?

  you're just assembling it. You're like, these are all the pieces that are required to make this business.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Who have you hired recently that is significantly better than you or has taught you something? Because you're in the role now where you have to do all the talking and a lot of the, for your audience and at your workshops and with companies that you work with.

• 17:49Alex Hormozi?

  Uh, Shran does. Shran's the president. Um, he's so knowledgeable on the, I mean, he's so knowledgeable in a lot of different things, but like, you know, he's had two, he's had two plus billion dollar companies. And so obviously acquisition is, you know, the third that, you know, we're shooting for, depending on, you know, when we have our third party validation. But basically it's like the bigger the company gets, I feel like the better he gets. You know what I mean? Like the more in his wheelhouse he is in terms of like data pipelines, infrastructure, real time dashboards. How can we, like, how can, how can finance get weaponized? I would say that Leila, like, Shran's so good at the finance function. Um, and understanding just like, just tax ramifications, entity structure, like just a lot of the things that I, you know, for me, my, my, my acumen is on like, how do we let people know about it? How do we get them to give us money for it?

• 18:34Alex Hormozi?

  How do we make sure that they really like it and tell their friends? Like, that has been basically the core of my skill set. And everything that's not that.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  It is the, the last thing you said there is that pride.

• 18:43Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, but like, everything outside of that, um, is definitely not what I would say like my core core is. Like Leila's so good at that, like a lot of what we were talking about there is me somewhat relaying Leila's, you know, Zyka or, you know, Leila's MO around people and people and talent. But Shran's so good at like enterprise value structuring, just like a lot, just a lot of the things that, you know, a public CEO would be good at. And that's, that's where he comes from. Um, but he also is like, and I would say like, from an observation personally, like, the true AAA talent, one, they're not employees. They are partners and they see themselves as partners. And if you don't see them as partners, then they are not a, a plus, you know, talent.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  How do you treat a partner differently than an employee? Like, how would I know if I own a partner?

• 19:30Alex Hormozi?

  Well, I think if you go to them because you're not sure what to do and they're giving you advice, to me, that's a partner. If you're constantly directing them and saying, this is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to do. There's nothing wrong with that. Um, but they're not a thought partner. And I also use that as a great LIMIS test for like the true C level executives that we have is like, do I want to talk to this person about this complex problem? If I don't seek their advice, then it means that I don't see them as a value add. And so then they're not like. They're not super essential, which is not good. But yeah, so I think that and then the other piece, and this is something that again, I feel like I've learned more recently because I'm super deep in sea level stuff right now. But it's clouds to dirt. So vertically integrated, full stack, skill sets.

• 20:14Alex Hormozi?

  And so like, I think like the best sales leaders can go like, they can hop on the phone and get a cold lead to book an appointment from an SDR level all the way to building sales strategy of like, which starts to merge into marketing, right? It's like, what kind of messaging do we need to look at? What kind of avatars are

• 20:35Alex Hormozi?

  have the highest likelihood of buying our stuff? How can we weave that into our process and our scripting? How can we, you know, cut our training time and onboarding new rep? Like, they're really thinking about the sales organization, but they can also do almost every job. And I just have yet to find like truly exceptional people that aren't full stack.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  What do you have to offer to them other than market rate or above market grade money?

• 21:00Alex Hormozi?

  It's growth and impact. Like if you were to ask everybody in the company acquisition.com, what's the number one thing that they come for? It's growth. Like they like, none of those companies are like, not none. A lot of those companies aren't growing at the rate that we're growing. And so there's so much career advancement and opportunity. We are very meritocratic, meritocratic, there you go.

• 21:21Alex Hormozi?

  And so like, anyone can come here and move up independent of of age. You know, even even independent of tenure, like we had a guy who came here 90 days ago and got a very large promotion after coming in at a pretty high role already. Just because he demonstrated he was great and we're like, great, we have this opening. We think you'd be the best fit.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Or like a lot of businesses are like growing only 20 years, 20% a year. I don't know. Some like

• 21:43Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Fine, but mediocre number. And it's like, where do they start if they don't have growth in order, not growth in terms of just the money paid people, but growth in order to impress the great people still?

• 21:54Alex Hormozi?

  I think it all depends on like the opportunity and the level of like the pool that you're competing against, you know, like if you are an AI, true AI, you know, company. You know, it is super competitive. On the flip side though, like if someone's going to start a new division for us, I can just say like, I can guarantee you demand. Not a lot of people can do that. And so like it's not a question of whether this will work or not is it's is this the best use of the demand that we have. And so it becomes an opportunity cost question, but a lot of people in some ways it's like it's less risky to come to ACQ because we have so much demand and there's just there's so much opportunity. That's basically like if you're working for Jimmy's that, you know, use a different brand

• 22:37Alex Hormozi?

  like Mr. Beast, like he has virtually a limitless demand. And so if if he said, hey, can you help me spin up whatever, pick a pick a random thing? If if Mr. Beast was going to say, hey, let's start an umbrella brand, it doesn't mean like he for sure will sell umbrellas. It's just not the best use of his resources. Right? And so it's like, we need somebody who can come in, recognize the best vehicle for for the demand that we have and then be able to obviously execute it on it. But a lot of people don't have that like built in guaranteed, you know, they just don't have that. And so that becomes actually significantly riskier despite, you know, what other quote perks might exist. And so it's like you've guaranteed demand, you've basically guaranteed growth as as fast as you can grow, we can grow. And that's and we also still pay exceptionally well.

• 23:22Alex Hormozi?

  And so with those, you know, those three things put together, we can get very, very good talent. And there's also people that are just very mission driven. Like we have a lot of people who come in and are like, I've consumed your stuff for years and I saw the recruiter reached out to me and I was stoked. And that was it. Like there's just in some ways, it's like, you know, private equity number 17. It's like they're all it's almost it's just commoditized, like their business is commoditized. It's just not that interesting. And so they have to compete on price. And so their price is their comp. Whereas if you have a value proposition, like what's the what's the grand slam offer from an employee perspective rather than a grand slam offer from a product perspective? Because it's still the exact same process of acquiring talent as it is to acquire customers. It's just a reverse funnel.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we could say, uh, what's like a really a salesperson, that's a that's a simple one. Uh, but I'm hiring other balls, so I'm hiring, um, chapter leads. So we have 13 chapters that via they send them, I have a hiring give them manage each chapter.

• 24:17Alex Hormozi?

  I mean, the easy answer is settling, but it's so tough because there's trades because these things don't exist outside of time. You know, it's like, I have to fill this role and I want to find somebody, especially, obviously for us at the C level, because that's what's top of mind for me. It's like, I have to have somebody that when I'm on the phone with them, I'm thinking, I have to have this person. And if I don't have that, but I'm like, man, I really need this role. And so if I'm thinking from the like, I really have to fill this role angle, it's like usually not the right person. If I'm thinking like, I don't even care if I have a role for this person, I have to get them in, it's usually the right person.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Were you willing to pay them more than you originally thought?

• 24:54Alex Hormozi?

  Yes, 100%, not even a question.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Break that a lot?

• 24:57Alex Hormozi?

  Yep. And also if-

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Have you ever been like, I gotta come up with enough money, like I will buy and get enough sales to afford this person, but I have to have them?

• 25:05Alex Hormozi?

  I haven't had the second part because we're a super cash flow positive company. So like, that hasn't been a problem. I mean, fundamentally, as long as I can just pencil out the ROI of the role, then yeah, I'll do it. I mean, it's just a return on capital. Like that's, and I still see the-

• 25:18Speaker 01

  What's your desired return now?

• 25:21Alex Hormozi?

  Amazing. Well, it's like, I mean, it's, I still think the highest-

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Do you feel sheets allow you to quit the amazing?

• 25:27Alex Hormozi?

  Yes, mind it. I think, I think the highest returns on capital we get as entrepreneurs is talent. Like full stop. Like where else do you get 10x, 20x, you know, returns, 100x returns?

• 25:44Alex Hormozi?

  And can do so reliably. Like talent is one of those places you can do it. I will also say that typically the higher up the org, the higher the arbitrage.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Are you fast to fire?

• 25:55Alex Hormozi?

  Uh, we continue to get faster. I'll say that. I think we get faster. I would say that our firing practices do somewhat rely on the constraint. So like sometimes, you know, Leila says this, but like some fires aren't, aren't kitchen fires. They're like the, the trash can and the driveway is on fire. It's like, it's a problem. Like we'll get to it, but it's not the thing that's limiting the business. And so if we have somebody who's not as good as they should be, but they're not in a role that's right now, like limiting the company, it's probably not going to be our first priority to, to, to, to take them out. But as soon as that becomes the constraint, then it like quickly gets unearthed and then it gets handled. That's like the realistic answer.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  I sensed a small bit in your voice where it sounded like potentially you were blow to fire because maybe I'm, I'm, I'm reading what's in your sentiment or your tone of voice.

• 26:47Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  It was like, I just don't like it.

• 26:49Alex Hormozi?

  Well, I don't think anybody likes it. I think we're, we're fast to fire if it is the constraint of the business and clearly that person is the one limiting us. Like, we will not sacrifice the company's growth and the opportunity of all the people who've trusted us with their careers to, to not have a, you know, a, a comfortable conversation. There's also levels of this. And so like, let's say there's like, you know, uh, red, yellow, green, right? Um, if someone's like, well, green, they're great. Fine. So basically you've got maybe like yellow, orange, red. Let's use that as the three levels. For me, like if somebody's just not, doesn't have the complete competence, but is not, like they can still do their job, but they're not doing it as well as they should, and they're definitely not going to grow and they can't take on new opportunities, then that to me is like a yellow. Um, if they're, if they're like for sure, like they can't actually do their,

• 27:32Alex Hormozi?

  their, their role right now, that's an orange. If, um, red is like, you can't do the role right now and that thing is required for us to grow. And so that's, that's kind of like, I'd say like we, it's, it's, it's a combination of like, what is the business need? Um, and how incompetent is the person? And so the rates of firing, I think would depend on both of those things. Obviously we want to like, in a perfect world, we get everyone out who's not a fit as soon as humanly possible. Um, it's just that sometimes some people do turn it around, uh, with good feedback and coaching. And that probably happens half the time. Um, and so, you know, people are messy and also like, we have a reputation too. We don't want to like, we don't want to be seen as, you know, brutal employers. Um, but at the same degree, like we are intense and people do work a lot here.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  How do you kind of talk about being patient all the time, but you're moving at a wicked, a wicked pace and getting results quickly?

• 28:22Alex Hormozi?

  I think the patience is relative to the outcome that you're going for. And so like if you if you're trying to climb Everest, right? Your rate of ascension in terms of altitude is going to be significantly faster than somebody who's trying to climb a foothill. The percentage growth will might might be the same, though. And so a patient person might be willing to grow at one, two, three, four percent per year towards their ultimate Everest. But it's just that four percent of Everest is significantly faster than four percent of a foothill. And so the absolute difference will be different, but the relative difference, which is like what I'm quote measuring myself against is where I feel patient. And I think that's where the whole macro, you know, macro speed, sorry, macro patience, micro speed is is super important. It's like we still need, we still have deadlines, we still need to move the ball forward, we

• 29:07Alex Hormozi?

  still have to act with urgency. We still have to ask the question of like, what would it take in order to do this in half the time? Would it take for us to do this in a fifth of the time? And can we do that? Let's do that. And I think I honestly see a lot of the job of the manager or the driver or the operator, depending what term you want to use, as doing that, which is just consistently pulling, like pulling the future forward faster. And like when you're having, you know, even at the tactical level, like you're having a team meeting and you say, hey, when can you get that done by? They'll give you a date and then like the follow up, like, you know, level one manager, level zero manager doesn't ask when the when there's when the deadline is. A level one manager would be like, we'll just accept the deadline. Like a level two manager would be like, well, what else do you have that's blocking you right now from getting that done? And they might say, well, I have these three things.

• 29:51Alex Hormozi?

  And at that point, they might say, well, this is more important than those things. So do this first. And then with that new knowledge, what is your new deadline? And they might say like, okay, instead of end of week, I can get it, you know, two days earlier than that. It's like, okay, how many actual hours do you think this work will take? And they might say like, well, I think it'll probably take four hours. And it's like, okay, well, it's noon now, so why isn't it at four o'clock today? Right? And I think somebody who's willing to continue to ask those questions and they're like, well, I could do it, you know, today, and I just wanted to give myself some time. It's like, well. Why? Right? And so I think that's that consistent pulling forward. And the thing is, is like, it's almost like many confrontational conversations that I think are required in order to move an entire organization at breakneck speed. I mean, I look at Elon a lot, you know, as an

• 30:34Alex Hormozi?

  inspiration from a business perspective. And all of his competitors talk about that, just like the maniacal sense of urgency that that he carries. And I think a lot of it is that is just like consistently challenging, like, what would it take? And is it worth us doing like, is it worth it for what it would take? If the answer is yes, then let's do it. And a lot of people kind of like, they make their decisions within their frame or their realm of reality, when that's not based on anything besides their own conjecture or some arbitrary timeline of what they think it should take.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  So how do you think that people get their standards to be raised to this like extreme level? Like, were you around other extreme people? And you're like, oh, my gosh, there's so much more to do. That's now the standard? Or do you think that some people are just born extreme? And and they they just get there and they bring others to that level? Does that make sense?

• 31:22Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, I think I think it's probably a nature nurture question. And to be clear, I don't know the answer. This is just my two cents. I think I've always been a really intense person. Like, my my father, my whole upbringing, used to always say, like, balance. He's like, you're so unbalanced. You're so unbalanced. Because like, as soon as I'd find something, I would just want to do nothing besides that thing until I had like, finished it or, you know, whatever it was. And so I do think there's a component of that. The other aspect, though, is like, I for sure have had, call it beliefs broken, you know, frame shifts from people who were ahead of me. Like, me even observing Elon, you know, it stretches the horizon of what, you know, I think we can accomplish. And, you know, it's actually in some ways, very refreshing to think like, okay, well, you know, where was Elon when he was 36? Right? Versus, you know,

• 32:06Alex Hormozi?

  56 or whatever, you know, however old he is now. And he said, had such an exponential crescendo in his career, that to me, it's like, it's actually very like, inspiring that it just, it just takes time. And a lot of that, I think, what takes time for entrepreneurs is there's just so many skills required to be a good entrepreneur. And you have to be like, very good at all of them. And I think that's why it's it's just That's why I see entrepreneurship is the single greatest path of personal development. Like you get real time feedback that you suck and then at some point, most of us on some level get to a level of success and then say like, this is enough, or I'm not willing to make the trade offs beyond this point in other areas because it depends on the entrepreneur that you ask, but I would say

• 32:50Alex Hormozi?

  the vast majority of entrepreneurs want to win the game of life and business is a component is one of the games within the larger game of life. Some people get lost to whatever game they're in, um, or they just consciously choose that that game is more important to them. I mean, like, Steve Jobs accomplished a lot. I think there's, there's been a lot that's been documented about his, you know, personal life suffering. Um, you know, as, as a result of his professional career, you could make an argument that he was amazing net positive for humanity, but on the micro level, uh, he lived a harder existence. Elon is probably another one of those people. A lot of people don't, wouldn't want Elon's life and he says, you wouldn't want my life. Um, and I think we should believe them. And so I think it's just like what trades we're willing to make. And I think about, that's probably a lot of my,

• 33:35Alex Hormozi?

  a lot of my free, like shower time right now is like, when you know the price of the thing you want, like it's okay to go into a store, see something you like and then not buy it.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  What, why are you questioning that now? Is it because you just had the suits launch and you like hit a, hit a milestone that you're like, oh my God, I wanted this all the time and I finally got it and maybe I didn't want to do it as much as I want or?

• 33:56Alex Hormozi?

  Well, I had a confluence of three things happen within 30 days. So I had called a four plus year project come to an end, which was a lot of my shower time. Was around the whole hundred million dollar series and the culmination of the, the money models launch. Uh, so that was one. There's obviously, you know, a financial outcome that was, you know, quickly, you know, happened, um, at the launch. That's the second thing. Then the third thing is my mother died within 30 days. And so it was a very interesting mix of different emotions within that period of time. And so I have, I've had a lot of time to reflect, um, on like, what are the things that matter most? And so, like in writing, I mean, I think everyone's heard the advice, like write your own eulogy and then try to live that way.

• 34:37Alex Hormozi?

  Except most people don't actually take the time to write their own eulogy. Um, but in writing her eulogy, it was, it was interesting to see like what portion, if we had a pie chart of this eulogy is going to be dedicated to her accomplishments. And she was a relatively accomplished person. Compared to the rest of it, which was about service and character. And the vast majority of it was service and character. And so in thinking about that, it's like, okay, well, then if I were to apportion my time based on what my eulogy percentages would be, I would probably not have the same pie chart that I do now. That being said, you know, life is, has a lot of years. And so maybe that slice of pie chart, that's the first two or three sentences or whatever, might be 15 years.

• 35:22Alex Hormozi?

  And then there's just another period of 15 years afterwards or 30 years afterwards that are a different slice of that chart. Yeah, if you, if you live, right? If you live, like she had a, she had a freak accident. So hers was a sudden death. And so, yeah, so that's what I think about a lot is, is the trade offs. Because I think most of like, because obviously I have a lot of content that's going out there, just because people tend to ask me stuff about hard work. And the reason I think I tweet so much about it is because it's always top of mind for me. So like, I don't have a, we talked about this at the beginning, but like, I don't have a, a content scheduler, I don't have like a, you know, I'm looking at trending tweets and thinking, oh, how do I do my own spin on this? Like, that's not how I make content. I tweet whatever is top of mind and the things that come out are the things that I'm thinking about. And you're going to kind of like see the, the trends of whatever I'm thinking about in a specific season, but if you just take the aggregate of like a month of tweets, it's

• 36:07Alex Hormozi?

  like, oh, Alex is thinking about this right now. I think there's two things that I think make entrepreneurship hard. Number one is uncertainty. It's just the, the absolute kind of like soul crushing uncertainty that is always present throughout your day, every day while you're making decisions. And it's just always this idea like you might lose and you don't know. And then the, the other component that makes it so difficult is the known quantities that you believe that you're going to have to trade in order to get the unknown, I guess there is some uncertainty there too, the unknown upside. And so it's like, we can always quantify the downside, the thing that we trade and we cannot quantify the upside. And so I think about that a lot because I think a lot of entrepreneurship, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs that I see, especially common with like, you know, the lifestyle entrepreneurs, because I get tons of flack from that community.

• 36:52Alex Hormozi?

  Which is interesting because this is like, you just, you were not willing to make trades that I was willing to make, and there might be other trades that Elon's willing to make that I'm not. And that's okay. Like, I just, I just see that it's like, we all get to whatever level that we're willing to trade, trade for. But I just see them as trade offs. And I think most of the regrets that people have are wanting the upside from a decision or a path not taken without taking into account the downside that they didn't suffer.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  What's the pie chart like now?

• 37:18Alex Hormozi?

  I mean, I think for now, it's almost entirely business. I would say like, I probably have fifteen percent that's probably dedicated to like marriage stuff, like marriage, Leila stuff. And probably fifteen percent that's dedicated to like health stuff. So probably like seventy percent work, fifteen health, fifteen marriage.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  What do you think when you're thinking about what it should be? Do you ever think like, I would like to try on this?

• 37:45Alex Hormozi?

  I think I would love to see a world where like twenty-five to thirty percent is business. I'd love to see what happens there. I also think that there might be, like, and I say this understanding like the position that I'm in to say this, which is, I'm approaching a point where more hours really doesn't, like, so much more of it at this point would be the leverage of the decisions that I make.

• 38:11Alex Hormozi?

  More than the work that I do. But yeah, a lot of the leverage is on the decision making. And maybe it's just that some of the bets that I made five years ago have come to fruition and have paid off, which then just give more leverage, right? Because I mean fundamentally output is just volume times leverage. And so, I mean, I could maybe make the other than I did even more. Elon still works a lot. So if you do a lot of volume and with a lot of leverage, you build rockets and build trillion dollar businesses. So like, you know, I don't say that thinking that I'm somehow immune to it.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Twenty-five percent business, what else?

• 38:42Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, it would probably just be a more even spread. It'd probably be like maybe twenty-five percent, you know.

• 38:48Alex Hormozi?

  I probably keep, I think health would probably be still around fifteen-ish percent. I might change what I do there, but I think I have an appropriate amount from the health category. I assume, I'll just, I'll bucket Leila as just family, life at all.

• 39:04Alex Hormozi?

  And then probably other pursuits. I'll still do business, but I think it would be. I'll just, I just think, I just think the percentages will change. I, you know, I'll just say that. I don't know what they are. I think they will change from what they currently are. I feel confident in that.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  What the non this is pursuit that you want to put in there potentially?

• 39:22Alex Hormozi?

  I don't know. And I think I, I need to, I think I need to create the space in order for that to get filled. Like, I don't think I will have a difficulty in finding things to fill my time. I think the difficulty is in.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  You to have any, we're buddies, but we're not terribly close, but I.

• 39:37Alex Hormozi?

  We're not that close.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  We're like, I would say we're friends. Uh, we've known each other for, uh, often a couple of years. So, and I had not known of you, I'm not known of you to be someone who has, uh, like, I've never seen you show interest in pop. It's like, oh, I like history. I from, I like buying clothes. I think clothes are cool. Uh, I like cars. I like motorcycles. Uh, like I have like hobbies where I'm like, I'm passionate in my X, Y, Z. So I see you event and it's like a, a motorcycle show. I'm like, oh, that sounds great. I would love to see that. Or, uh, I like live music, but I have never heard of you to like anything other than your wife and working out and business.

• 40:17Alex Hormozi?

  And business. Yeah, those have been my, my big three. I would say that I, I would, I would define myself as for the first time in, in 15 years, not even 15, because I wanted to start making money when I was like 15. So I guess it's been 21 years. It's the first time in my life where I've, I've been open to having other priorities. I don't know what they are, like straight up. I don't know. I don't know what they will be. Um, and maybe I, maybe I'll just discover that I, I like the life that I have now, but it's the first time that I've been like, huh, I am open to this mix changing.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Uh, Andrew Ross Storkin, um, he's got this new book called Nike 29. I'm in the middle, in the middle of bringing it. I, you read science fiction. And this book, uh, Nike 29, it's about the, uh, great depression and how it came to be. And my biggest takeaway from this book so far, well, there's not much takeaway, but one takeaway is that the executives of these banks. They didn't work that hard.

• 41:08Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  And they were like, they were the genie diamonds at the time and their income was the equivalent of a hundred million dollars a year. And like one guy had a routine where he's like, I'm up at six, I exercise, I'm at the office at 10, I'm home by five.

• 41:20Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Another guy had a similar routine as that, but then he would take off, he took somewhere off to go to Europe with the family. And I read about some of these, like, I think Brian Halligan, who's the founder of HubSpot, just tweeted, he's like, you don't move mountains working nine to five. And all these people, yourself included and myself, as I talk about hard work, but I like see all these other examples and I'm like, isn't it crazy how much you can get done by actually not working hard? And lately I've been like in insisted by some of those examples. Have you ever read about that?

• 41:47Alex Hormozi?

  I haven't read about it, but I've definitely observed it with some people that, you know, are further ahead than than I am. I think that, I think what's what's always difficult is like, do I model the the the top of the mountain or do I model the climb? Um, like, am I trying to extrapolate how someone currently lives for what they did to get there? Um, and that one's always a really dangerous one that I try and catch myself on, which is like, you know, we're in different seasons. And so I have to make sure that I'm comparing this person's spring, uh, you know, to my spring, not, not my winter to their spring.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  I had lists, so many people where I've been to them, I'm like, you don't work hard at all. What the hell?

• 42:23Alex Hormozi?

  Let's say, let's say like within your business, let's say that you could find the perfect Sam, just as a a thought routine, right? The perfect Sam that you could hire and whatever you could pay the perfect Sam to do, and he could do everything you can do just as well as you can. It's like, so whatever your current profit is minus Sam's compensation, if you could do that, then you would have almost the same amount of money you have now, and maybe in two years, perfect Sam would grow the pie. So then you're making the same or more than you're making right now, but you're still not working at all. And so if that's the case, then it's like, we're always like in the hypothetical world, we're one hire away from somebody who could do 100% of what we're currently doing and the business would be able to continue to grow. I think, um, to that point about patience is like, but most entrepreneurs are like, well, I'll, I'll find that person, I'll give it to that person and then I'll start the next job.

• 43:08Alex Hormozi?

  Whereas some other people just say like, I'm just not going to start that next job. And then just be willing to let the company continue to grow with the team that I've assembled. Um, and I think both like fundamentally, if you work or you don't work, as long as the business performs these functions, it will grow.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Have you ever bought or taken any courses and which one, if you did, one gate to you?

• 43:27Alex Hormozi?

  The biggest things that have really changed my life was actually like, had been, had been net like networks of people. Uh, more than anything like getting in the room. With people who are ahead of me within the current realm or even across realms from me. That was the stuff that really changed my life the most. For sure, from the tactical level, books, courses, things like that. Workshop seminars, like those things, absolutely, like I'm at, I am a product of the alternative education world. Like I have no reservations about that. I am. Some people were able to learn on their own. I was willing to pay to learn from people who were ahead of me and it was more than, more than worth it. So basically, there's two types of knowledge, right? You have declarative knowledge, which is knowledge about stuff. And then you have a procedure knowledge, which is knowledge how to do stuff.

• 44:10Alex Hormozi?

  The, the courses and DIY stuff is predominantly procedural. Uh, which is here's how you set up a landing page, here's how you write a copy, here's how you structure a, you know, a video sales letter, whatever, right? Um, and then there's, I see that the, the, the networks and affiliations and when you meet people who are further ahead of you. Those are where you get the quote beliefs spoken. That's where you learn about stuff that you didn't know was possible. Uh, and that about stuff could be like, I didn't know you could work four hours a week and make that kind of money. I didn't know that real estate worked that way. I didn't know that the insurance industry was so profitable or whatever it is, right? And those were, I think, where I had my order of magnitude increases. So it's like my incremental increases in, in business were always just, you know, developing more blocking tackling skills. Like I have to learn how to do a webinar, I have to learn how to do a sales call, I have to, you know, all these things.

• 44:54Alex Hormozi?

  Um, but where the like increment, like the large step, step function increases have been um, through association with people that were just way further ahead and were like, hey man, let me tell you what the next five years looks like if you keep doing what you're doing, this is what you need to do instead. And I was like, oh, and those are the things that really changed the trajectory of my life.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Your list of, um, tough people who you, you killed a meeting and, and, and sent time with our shadow for a day.

• 45:16Alex Hormozi?

  I mean, uh, most of mine are the obvious ones. Like I would love to, I'd love to shadow Elon. I'd love to shadow Zach. I'd love to shadow Bezos. I'd love to shadow, honestly, I'd love to, love to shadow Bezos like 10 years ago. Um, cause actually I'm not even sure what his, what his working, you know, what, what he's doing next. Cause he's got Blue Origin and, and he's got, you know, other things. I think he's got other things going on.

• 45:38Alex Hormozi?

  But like people who are in the thick of the game, um, I would love to, cause a lot of it is like, how they like, what frameworks are they using to think through these decisions? Cause they've made these decisions a bunch of times. So like, I'd love to just get that framework. Cause if I could apply that to my current state, then I would move faster.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  What I, what I listen, when I listen to you, I get envious, not envious, but I think I have to step it up. Because I hear you learn these frameworks and I'm like, man, that is crazy that he is memorizing this stuff. But not just memorizing it, but he, when I hear him talk about it, I believe that he actually uses it in, in his day to day life.

• 46:12Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  And, uh, I, I would like to get better at that. I'm just amazed at how much information you retain.

• 46:18Alex Hormozi?

  Thanks. Um, I think that the frameworks piece, like there's probably a book that will come out of me along that topic. But it's more around, uh, viewpoints of the world and reality. And so like, I think that if you are not good at predicting what is going to happen next, life will be hard for you. And the better you get at predicting what's going to happen next, the more you will get what you want. And so then being able to predict what's going to happen requires a, an accurate framework of how reality works. And I think that that's where, you know, if you've lost everything and then you can rebuild it again, it's because you accurately review, view reality and it wasn't luck, you can redo it again.

• 47:03Alex Hormozi?

  And so for me, I think a big part of it was like, or still is. I find, I find like the most people don't know what they're saying most of the time. Like the vast majority of people spend their time regurgitating and re parroting things that they never thought about. And saying words that they don't understand. Because if you ask someone, when they say, hey, I think you should do this, I would just say like, define that. Or like, hey, my goal is I want to. Insert thing, like, I want to feel great about myself. And I'd be like, well, what does that mean? And then they can't define it. I'm like, well, no shit, you haven't hit it. You can't even define what you're going for, right? And so I think that the single greatest razor that I have for defining reality more accurately

• 47:46Alex Hormozi?

  has been removing all sentiment, emotion, and quote, "psychology" from the equation, and only looking at it from a behaviorist frame of what can I observe? And just say like, and so basically, like, if you were to, you know, Alien Comes on Earth, or a toddler, depending on how you want to see it, and say like, hey, you know, what does trust mean? Right? Like, hey, you're not very trustworthy. I'd be like, well, what does that mean to you? Right? And most times, people will just say like, a bunch of nonsense back to you. And it's like, well, of course, you don't know, like, and so I find that that's most people. And that's why they can't, they can't communicate well. And as a result, they don't receive communication well from the world, because they don't, like, it's two people saying words that neither of them understand. And then they're, and then they just roll a dice

• 48:29Alex Hormozi?

  to see if they get what they want. And that's how most people live their lives, which is why they don't get what they want, because they didn't define what they want. And that's why I've been so, like, the beginning of every one of my books defines terms. The beginning of all my books defines terms. Um, the beginning of every legal document, there's a recitation of definitions. And it's like, you need that in order to be precise about what you want.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  What's that mean? So like, defining what a win would look like, what a success looked like?

• 48:52Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, well, that's, that, those are like the, I would say, like, the big, obvious ones. But underneath of that, it's like, the day to day life that you have. It's like, you ask your wife, it's like, I'd like you to be more loving towards me. It's like, well, what does that mean? Like, for real? Like, what is, what is you saying the word, I need you to love me better, mean? Does that mean, hey, when I walk in the door, can you come and give me a hug? That's observable. I can see that. A court witness could say, he came in and did that. Right? And so, but like, again, this is like, getting as granular as everything, if we just bring everything down to what is observable in reality, then we can all get to agreement. And I think that's, that's where, like, I think the content that I have somehow seems both the same and different from the stuff that's out there. They're like, man, I'm listening to you about marketing stuff. And like, he says things

• 49:36Alex Hormozi?

  that I know, but he says it in a different way. And it's like, well, it's because I Just think about it, okay, well, what is selling, right? And then a lot of people are like, it's a transference of feeling between two parties, you know, over a bridge of trust, right? And I would say something like that fifteen years ago. And I would yell at it to salesmen, but like, dude, sales is just a transference of belief over a bridge of trust. It's like, that sounds amazing. There's nice visuals. It's like, but what the fuck does that mean? Like, how do I go transfer belief over a bridge of trust? I'm like, go transfer belief over a bridge of trust. And they're like, I don't know how to do that. It's like, of course you don't. Of course you don't. I don't either, right? Of course you don't. What's the bridge? Yeah. Okay, you're fucking bridge. Yeah. It's a bridge. And how do I give them this belief, right?

• 50:19Alex Hormozi?

  And so, and so it's natural to use shorthand with language because it's faster to transfer ideas, except neither party define the term. And that's where a lot of quote miscommunications come from. And so I think to be an accurate communicator, it's like we have to define terms before we can actually engage in this conversation, which is annoying for some people, but it's also required if you want to have like effective communication. And so for that whole like salesperson thing, it's like, well, what is selling? It's increasing likely that someone makes a purchasing decision. Done, that's all it is. We just increase the likelihood. And so that is your job, is to increase the likelihood they make a purchasing decision. And we know that there's a number of variables that affect that percentage. And that's what the ones that we can affect and we can observe. And I think we just leave it there, but we get all of this hullabaloo and all of the manifestation and the synchronicities and the energy and the men,

• 51:04Alex Hormozi?

  and all of this crap out of there. And maybe that stuff's true, but I can't see it. So, and so how do I transfer it? I don't know. And so I just talk about the observable world and it's made my life so much better. And my ability to predict what's going to happen next, so much better.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Dude, this is why I like, by the way, Dale Pradig, How to Win, Brendan and Booth people. Very tactical.

• 51:25Alex Hormozi?

  Hundred percent.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  The takeaway that I don't want to have about that book, well, at least one of them will be, you say someone's name. Say someone's name, because that's the most beautiful sound in English saying.

• 51:33Alex Hormozi?

  Yes.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Very tactical. And another really tactical thing I love reading that more people should do, particularly if you're working in a network, old school, direct response copy running books. So Claude Hopkins, David Oldvieve, a little bit newer, Joe Shergis, a little bit newer, Guy Kennedy. I love reading those books. Those books are my favorite because they are the most tactical, but they also teach you about life.

• 51:59Alex Hormozi?

  No, I did when I, basically when I was, when I was in my like Rocky Cut scene of learning marketing, I read all that stuff. I haven't read much of it lately because I feel like, you know, like the midwit meme? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like, I feel like the midwifeme is one of my favorite memes of all time because it just, it's, it's been so true for me in so many domains of my life. It's like, you know, when I started lifting, it was like, add more weight, eat protein, try hard. You know what I mean? And like, do it over and over again. And that was like, that was it, right? And then I got into like, you know, periodization and like, you know, volume blocks, then, you know, peaking cycles and like, you know, you know, we have to have undulating periods and we have to have like, you know, this is better for protein, this is better for strength. Like, and all this like complexity, right?

• 52:39Alex Hormozi?

  And then like, fast forward now, it's just like, dude, just, just eat protein, add, add more weight to the bar, and, you know, thank your parents for genetics, like, whatever. Now, of course, the comments will be like, and Alex takes testosterone, which I've been public about, so deal with it. Um, but like, yes, that's like, and so I think the same thing with marketing. And so, like, a lot of it is...

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Did your testosterone make you more Persian?

• 53:03Alex Hormozi?

  I don't know. Maybe, I think it's all genetics for the hair.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  At the P E D, it's be more Persian.

• 53:10Alex Hormozi?

  Um, but anyway, I think, I think the testosterone would decrease the amount of hair I have on my head at least. Um, but anyways, um, but yeah, but like with marketing, it's like, it's so much, like, no persuasion occurs in the vague. Like persuasion occurs in the specific. And so when it's like, alright, I know he, he just, like, if you can articulate someone's pain to them more accurately than they can, they will buy what you have to sell without even hearing much about whatever your offer is. If someone describes every pain in their life in excruciating detail, you're like, if this guy knows this much about my pain, he has to know how to solve it. And what's also nice about pain specifically is that pain is more motivating than promise.

• 53:53Alex Hormozi?

  And so, it's also more compliant. Because if you think about like, what, like, what is a salesperson? What is marketing in general? Like, we just simply motivate someone to take action. Right? We increase the likelihood that they will see this message, they take it, desired action. And so, it's like, well then, where does the basis of motivation come from? Which is a super complex question. Um, and so for me, motivation comes from deprivation. And we have to deprive the prospect or increase the perception of deprivation around the, you know, the action that's associated with whatever thing that we want them to do. I said the outcome associated with what we actually want them to take. Um, and so that comes from like, when people are like, the pain is the pitch, which is one of my, my little isms, is like, the pain is the pitch. Like, if you, if you can accurately do that... And it's not about like fancy words.

• 54:38Alex Hormozi?

  It's not at all. It's, it's, you know, it's short words, short sentences, clearly defined that it takes no brain power to process. And yet it still has emotional resonance because of the specificity. So like Lose Weight Fast probably worked as the first, first weight loss ad in nineteen thirty. And then everyone was like, wow, that's short words. That's amazing. But then they had to get like more nuanced. And so it's like, you just have to keep breaking words down into like, what does that really mean? Like, what is fat? Have you ever been like the overweight girl who uh wanted to take the photo instead of being the photo? Yeah, yeah. No, and that's real. Like, have you ever walked on the beach and had your thighs chafed together? Have you ever always had a, a cover all when your friends were in a bikini?

• 55:21Alex Hormozi?

  Like, have you felt weird about, you know, you putting your own sunscreen on? Have you been like, in pictures, you said, like, do you, do you duck out? Uh, when you put your pants on that you used to wear, do you keep, do you find yourself holding your breath for longer and longer in order to put them on? Like, those are spec, you know, specifics, right? And like, that's where copy is driven, which is why you have to know the customer, which is why, in my opinion, some of the best marketers, like, the truly goaded marketers can advertise pain that they have not experienced. But the vast majority of marketers who are good in specific spaces know the avatar because they are the avatar, or at least were the avatar.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Just good words can sell way better than anything else.

• 55:58Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, I agree. Also, I actually think that, that that's true with content as well. Like, if you're an educator, to be clear. If you're an entertainer, that's different. But like, if you're an educator, which most, you know, B two B, anybody who's a business, uh, whatever, most businesses are, if they make content, is more on the educational side. Uh, whether you're a plumber or otherwise, like, you tell people about toilets and then people buy your stuff, right? Um, like, I did this experiment with my team because sometimes my, my editing team gets like, they get cute, you know, they get, they, they wanna get fancy. So I said, hey, this next one, we're gonna do the entire thing on an iPhone. Alright, so the whole thing is on an iPhone, the audio's crap, it's shaky, a guy's holding it, no tripod, like, no, that's all it was. But, um, it was just about like a concept that I knew was gonna do really well, and it got like, you know, one point seven or something, you know, almost two million views

• 56:42Alex Hormozi?

  uh from that video. And I was like, we spend so much time in post on some of these videos and like, it doesn't matter. Now, it might matter a little bit, it might matter ten percent, but how are we allocating our resources towards, you know, are, is, are we uh? Are we appropriately allocating the resources towards the thing that's going to get us the highest return? And the answer is almost always no, because the words are the hard part. The words you have to think, and that's what most people avoid.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  So, you know, last time we talked was about 10 days ago, something like that. I needed someone to, I wanted to talk to you today because I enjoyed their conversation. And I was like, I don't want to plan, I just want to have a conversation with Alex and like, I already made a joke, she was like, I want you to talk in soundbite. So they, that's the exact opposite. I don't want you to talk in any soundbite. Let's just see what's up and just catch up with you. And I've never read it that.

• 57:34Alex Hormozi?

  No, I am too bad.