360. How to be ambitious (without burning out) ft. Amina AlTai

In your 20s you're told to be as ambitious as you can be, go after your dreams, work hard, be delusional, pursue your passion at any cost. How can we do that without our lives and health crumbling? What is the balance between ambition and appreciation? In today's episode we bring on Amina AlTai, author of The Ambition Trap to talk about: Why having more ambition doesn’t always make you more successful How a scarcity mindset can ruin your 20s How to find your ‘zone of genius’ When to say ‘no’ to something you really want to do How to lean into the slower seasons of life The miserable paradox of success When do you need to ‘lock in’ & when do you need to have fun? If you've ever struggled with balancing your big goals with your desire to enjoy life, this episode is for you. Buy Amina's book HERE https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/734356/the-ambition-trap-by-amina-altai-foreword-by-rachel-rodgers/ Follow Amina HERE https://www.aminaaltai.com/ Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 3:00Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. I'm Jemma Sbeg and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s, and what they mean for our psychology.

• 3:20Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited to have you here back for another episode. Being an ambitious person is so obviously deeply applauded by our society. We love, we are obsessed with, we want to see success stories of people who have started businesses, who are self-made, who are entrepreneurs, authors, leaders, creators, founders, especially when they're young. But on the other side of ambition is this very real burnout and this very real struggle with how much is enough? How will I know when I'm happy?

• 4:03Jemma Sbeg?

  How can I balance working hard and having a life? Especially in our 20s when we don't want to miss out on experiences, but we also don't want to miss out on our future or the opportunities that are presented to us. Today, I invited somebody on the podcast who knows more about this balancing act than most people. This conversation honestly meant a lot to me. It's really... A real, it's a deep depiction of things that I'm currently working through. As you will probably hear, I am very excited by this episode. We talk about perfectionism, ambition, failure, rejection, joy, and how to go after what you want deeply and passionately,

• 4:48Jemma Sbeg?

  whilst also still allowing yourself to have a life. Without further ado, I want to introduce our lovely, beautiful, wonderful guest to the show. Amina, thank you so much for joining us.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me, Gemma. I am so excited.

• 5:02Jemma Sbeg?

  Can you introduce, like, I could introduce you if you wanted me to, but I feel like you could say it better. Tell the listeners what you're about, who you are, about this book that you've written as well.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. So I'm Amina Altai. I'm an executive coach and author and speaker. And I work with people in moments of great change around their careers. And everybody from folks that are in their twenties to people that are in their sixties. And the commonality is it's people that really want to finally do work that is true to them and their soul and their calling. Because so many of us are just indoctrinated to work in the shoulds and do what we think our parents wanted and take the linear career path that was laid out for us. And so, you know, this work I think of as a homecoming and a way to do it in a way that is really true to who we are. And I just wrote a book. I spent two and a half years writing this book called The Ambition Trap.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  And I wanted to write a book about ambition because I'm a highly ambitious person and so are my clients. And it was just really expensive for me. What I noticed was that I had all these desires to grow, but it cost me a lot. It actually cost me my health. And I tell this story in the book where I was 28 years old. I was six years into my career and I had been working so hard, the 80-hour weeks and just the first one in, the last one out. And I ended up burning out and developing two autoimmune diseases. But it happened in this really dramatic fashion where I got a call from my doctor on a Friday as I was going to work and she said, if you don't go to the hospital now, instead of going to work, you'll be days away from multiple organ failure. And it's like, what 28 year old gets that phone call, right?

• 6:41Speaker 02

  So like, very early in my career, I realized my relationship to success and growth was kind of killing me. And so I had to learn another way very quickly. And so I went on my Eat, Pray, Love year is what I call it. And I studied all these things from coaching to mindfulness to somatics. And, and then eventually just felt so much better using these old, these tools in my own life that I decided that I wanted to put it all together and teach others. And so I'm a coach and I take what I call a mind, body and career approach to coaching. So that we're really looking at all the different pieces and parts of us. And so in the book, The Ambition Trap, I'm exploring all of that. How we can have a healthy, more harmonious relationship with ambition and growth without it hurting us or others.

• 7:22Jemma Sbeg?

  And that's just absolutely wild for you to say that you were 28 years old experiencing, well, about to experience multiple organ failure.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 7:32Jemma Sbeg?

  And that's a shocking story, but that kind of gen- general theme of people in their twenties, especially in this generation, pushing themselves so hard to the point of sickness and illness and disease is not as uncommon as we might think.

• 7:50Jemma Sbeg?

  Let's, let's roll it back though.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:52Jemma Sbeg?

  Because let's start with what exactly is the ambition trap? Because we're going to get further into these symptoms and these signs a little bit later on, but how do we see the ambition trap? Firstly, what is it and how do we see it really showing up in our twenties?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the ambition trap refers to the double bind that we experience around ambition. If you're a woman, a person of color, a queer person, a person with a disability, we experience something known as an ambition penalty, which means that we're penalized for being ambitious. It's seen as taboo for us. And so we want to take up space. We want to throw our hats in the ring for things. And often we're told to be and not to be at the very same time. And it causes a lot of tension. And so there's kind of two pieces to the ambition trap. There's the systemic piece, right? Kind of operating in a system that says, hey, we don't really want you to shine and take up space. And then we internalize a lot of those messages and kind of weaponize them against ourselves.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  So our own mindset is then saying, well, who are you to take up space and who are you to do the thing? And so it's this tension that we feel around growth, right? I want to grow. I want to take up space. I know I have something to contribute, but when I do, I take a hit for it. So how do I find my right relationship with it?

• 9:05Jemma Sbeg?

  Um. And honestly, this is something that I am trying to manage as as well, where I feel like I was always incredibly ambitious growing up and I always wanted to do things. And then I also was kind of shamed for that a little bit and like told that I was too much. And then I also like experienced the of the sense of like, okay, well, if you think I'm too much, I'm just gonna push myself even further. And then I was the one who kind of paid the cost. So it is like a little bit of a of a tight rope, um, tight rope to, yeah, kind of walk along. I think probably what's also contributing to this is our ideas of success as a as a society and what we think of ambition.

• 9:48Jemma Sbeg?

  It's it's this weird thing where sometimes you're told it's good to be ambitious and then other times you're told, no, you need to slow down. And it's like, well, what do you want from me right now? Because the life of someone who is incredibly successful and who is busy all the time and everything is urgent for them, that seems to be the life that is most glamorized

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:12Jemma Sbeg?

  and most like promoted, but it's probably not the one that's gonna make us always the the happiest. Can you explain how this like perception is perhaps unhealthy or contributing to some of the things that you you've seen in your own work?

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Yes. And I want to caveat this by saying, my book is not asking anybody to be less ambitious, right? Like, I'm one of the most ambitious people I know. I bet you are too. The invitation is to find that harmonious relationship with it. But we live in a world that tells us that success is more for more's sake all the time, right? That's what ambition is. More money, more power, always be getting the next title, always be getting the next promotion, always be stretching yourself, right? But I think that that way of being is so dysfunctional. I think it's partly what led to my developing two autoimmune diseases. And there's so many examples of how problematic that approach is out in the world, right? From celebrities to our friends, probably. Because we're not supposed to be stretching and growing all the time. That more for more's sake actually costs us our health, our relationships,

• 11:11Speaker 02

  and even upholds oppressive systems. I think ambition goes in cycles. I think it's just like the seasons. It's like a perennial flower, right? So it's like you have this seedling of desire. You want to grow, right? I want to have this lovely podcast. I want to have this amazing career where I'm sharing beautiful things. So you water the inner and outer environment and then it grows. And you have this beautiful momentary peak in the sun, right? The petals come out, it's gorgeous. And then the seasons change and the petals fall off and we wind down and we go back underground. And maybe that ground is fallow and not doing anything until the environment is nurtured enough that we can grow again. And I think that this is such a counter-cultural way to think, right? I'll give you a perfect example. So I launched my book on May 13th and I had a really nice big pop for launch. I was doing all of these events. It was like that peak in the sun, right? The petals were out.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  I'd worked on this book for almost three years. It's like such a peak moment. And then, you know, it's summer here in the US. And so I'm winding down, I'm going back underground because things slow down. Nobody's booking events for the summer. There's a few podcasts here and there, but it's not super busy. But people have been like, are you okay? We noticed you're not as productive. We noticed that you're like taking more time off. And I'm like, I'm great, right? It's kind of this system that is always asking us to be in perpetual motion that I think is the problem, right? So I think that we really need to flip this idea of more for more's sake on its head and really live more into the cycles of ambition. And I think so many of us are afraid to do that. We're afraid that if we don't, if we take our foot off the gas, that we're going to lose something like an opportunity or what have you, right? But that scarcity mindset.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  And oftentimes in the restful moment, like this is science. This is not me like being woo woo.

• 12:44Jemma Sbeg?

  No, yes, yes.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Restful moments, right? When our brain has had a moment to relax, to be more parasympathetic, we actually can see more creative options. We can see more opportunities. And so it actually serves us to allow our ambition to go in cycles.

• 12:58Jemma Sbeg?

  This is, I can confirm, absolutely, most certainly true. Anytime we have a scarcity mindset about anything and what people may not know, a scarcity mindset is actually an economics term. And it's now been adopted by psychology and you would know this. A scarcity mindset is basically what it's, what companies try and create so that we value something more, because they understand that the less supply of something there is, the more we're going to demand it. And if they can make an item scarce, we immediately think of it as valuable. So if you think that opportunities are scarce, if you think

• 13:38Jemma Sbeg?

  that time is scarce, if you think that your period for success is limited, you're going to hold on as tightly and push yourself further and harder and faster than ever imaginable because of that, again, scarcity mindset. However, I think it's so rewarding to see stories of people who became successful at a later age, or stories of people like yourself, Amina, who are like, actually know this, I have this incredible career because I have prioritized rest, because I have taken time away. And when we do that, we can actually go deeper into projects. I'm finding this with myself right now, where I just said

• 14:23Jemma Sbeg?

  no to something really, really big in my career.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 14:26Jemma Sbeg?

  That I really wanted to do. Thanks. That's actually so nice. Thank you. I really wanted to do this thing. I was like, this is, it felt like it was a soul calling. It felt like really important. And I was really excited by it. And then I just was like, I actually just don't, I can't do this. I can't equally say to people all the time, I'm so busy, I'm so stressed, I'm so tired, and then continue to add things onto my plate that will give me even less time to take care of myself. And it was a hard call. But from your perspective, why do you think it's so important to sometimes make those calls?

• 15:04Speaker 02

  I think you made the most beautiful call, right? So in the book, I talk about purposeful work, and I think purposeful work requires five things. It has to leverage our zone of genius. It has to be values aligned with us. It has to support the impact that we want to have. It has to help us cultivate a sense of contentment, and then it has to meet our needs. And what I heard in this opportunity is that it wouldn't meet your needs, right? Your need for a certain amount of time off, right? So it's like, that to me is a shiny object. It's something that looks like the dream. It's adjacent to the dream, but it's not the dream. Because the dream would allow you to have your needs met, which means you pass the test, right? The actual thing is coming through. You honored yourself, which is a huge thing.

• 15:43Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, my gosh. I always feel like this is completely a sidebar, but I always feel like I end up interviewing people exactly when I need to hear exactly what they're saying to me.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  I know.

• 15:52Jemma Sbeg?

  Because it's like a selfish thing because I'm sitting here being like, oh, sorry, listeners. I'm going to just ask this expert all the questions I have about my own decisions.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  But somebody else needs to hear this because this is so typical, right? It's so typical, the shiny object, and then not feel like we have enough self-trust or self-worth to hold out for the thing that we really want. So I actually think it's so beautiful that you're sharing this example because you're gonna invite others to double down on their self-worth and hold out for the thing that's truly aligned for them.

• 16:20Jemma Sbeg?

  Thank you. I hope you guys feel the same way. This is a question more for the people in their twenties, which is mostly everyone who listens to this podcast. Why do you think it is hustle culture in particular and not saying no is so seductive, particularly in this, in this decade? And why do you think that it's important to consciously learn a different way during this time?

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's two things. I think it goes back to what we're talking about with scarcity, right? The idea that we're going to miss an opportunity that's going to set us up for our careers. I have been on my book tour and I was in a room with someone and they asked me a question and they were in their twenties as well. And they were just like, you know, what I've been told is that your twenties is the time to take the risks, right? It's when you work the hardest, you have the least responsibilities potentially outside of work. Like this is the time to maximize. And I was like, well, to me, that scarcity mindset and that's systemically reinforced, right? There's a lot of stuff that gets mirrored back, particularly for women and other historically excluded people. It's like, well, your value is only in your twenties or your value like.

• 17:24Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, when you're young and beautiful and like fresh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Exactly. I have clients in their 50s and 60s that it really are facing ageism, right? So that's a real thing to acknowledge. But I think a tremendous amount of pressure gets put on us to achieve the thing in our twenties, because if we don't do it, then we're never going to do it. And I just think that that's BS. Like I'm somebody that, I was reflecting on this today. I've built my career so sequentially, step by step, choice by choice, right? And I've had a lovely career and I feel really aligned and I feel really squarely in my purpose. And so I think it is that scarcity mindset of like, this is the only decade that we can make something happen. And I think that all of these lists, right, like the thirty under thirty, the forty under forty, right, that really glorify and glamorize achieving something in the shortest

• 18:12Speaker 02

  amount of time, which leads me to my second point, of urgency culture, right? We live in a culture that thinks that everything is urgent and we have no time to do a thing and we have to do it now. But again, that hurts our bodies, hurts our relationships and upholds oppressive systems. I think that we need to be moving, we need to honor deadlines, dependencies and everything, right? But we need to move at the speed of trust. We need to honor the people and processes it takes to deliver great work. So it's scarcity and it's urgency.

• 18:42Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. And this is something that, again, to relate this to my own experiences, is one I'm really experiencing right now. I have a podcast called The Psychology of Your Twenties. The amount of people who always ask me, are you gonna do the psychology of your thirties? What are you gonna do when you turn thirty? Like, what's, what's the future for you? And I'm like, I don't know. And it is a real sense where it's like, if you accomplish everything that you want in your twenties, what else is there for you? You know what I mean? Like, you've got all the, hopefully, all these decades that are coming up, that you wanna continue to thrive and you wanna continue to do things. There's such a pressure to, like, do everything in your twenties and to have it all together,

• 19:26Jemma Sbeg?

  but it's also like, what if you kind of peaked too soon? What if there is, um, you know, what if there is an identity crisis waiting for you at the other end? Basically, I feel like that's something that's coming for me, right? Where it's like, oh, yes, I, I, I found the dream job and I, and I have the dream job super early.

• 19:48Jemma Sbeg?

  It's not all that, that it's like cracked out to be, I think. Like, even if you have what you think you desire, like, there is always gonna be a sense of more and you're never going to be happy with it. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that in our twenties, we have this whole sense that we need to have it all together and that we need to have it figured out. And even if you do, and even if everything goes well, if you constantly still have the ambition trap mindset, um, you're never gonna feel satisfied. You're never gonna feel okay. Is something that, is that something that you've seen as well? Like, ambitious people, no matter what they have, still desire for more and are never, like, happy?

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so in the book, I define ambition as a desire for more life, a wish to grow, a wish to unfold.

• 20:33Jemma Sbeg?

  Right? Yeah.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  And I say that it's neutral and natural, right? Because we do live in that world that makes it right for some people and wrong for others. And ambitious people have that desire for more life and a desire to growth. But I desire for growth, but I think that's actually in every living thing on the planet. I don't think that there are ambitious people and non ambitious people. I think we're all actually ambitious. Some of us have just rejected that label because of the way that it's been portrayed. But every living thing on the planet has a desire for more life, right? From our plant babies to our human babies. But I think what you're alluding to is more of the trap, right? Because I think ambition is neutral and natural. It's for all of us. There's nothing wrong with it. It's a beautiful thing. But this desire to grow, no matter the cost, to win no matter the cost, to hurt ourselves in the process,

• 21:15Speaker 02

  to step over people in the process, that's the thing we don't want to do, right? And sometimes there is a tendency. So in the book, I talk about two types of ambition. There's painful ambition, which is what I just described, right? The winning no matter the cost, the hurting ourselves to get there, moving at this unsustainable pace. And then there's purposeful ambition. Purposeful ambition is when our ambition is connected to our truth and it's coming from a place of wholeness. So that's my invitation in this work, right? Is to leave the old paradigm of the painful piece that's harmful to us and others, and step into that more truthful version. And in painful ambition, we're always moving the goalposts. Nothing is ever enough for us. We achieve one mountain, we're like, where's the next one, right? We don't stop long enough to enjoy the view. And in purposeful ambition, we know that life is a spiral staircase.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  We're always just, you know, moving up the staircase, moving up the staircase, growing and becoming, and becoming more of ourselves, which is a really beautiful thing. And in purposeful ambition, we are more concerned with contentment. So contentment from eastern traditions translates into English as unconditional wholeness, or the knowledge of enough. It's this idea that regardless of what's happening around us, we have this internal stability that tells us, I'm enough, right? I have this knowledge of enough. And that is such a crucial piece, right? Because it doesn't mean that I don't want to continue to grow, but it means that while I grow, I have this unconditional wholeness on the inside and I know that everything that I've already done is enough and who I am is enough. Did I answer your question?

• 22:40Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, my God, it absolutely did. And I want to go further into this purposeful ambition concept. Is there? Do you have some kind of checklist, a series of questions? How can we tell when something is purposeful ambition versus painful ambition? What are the key signs or distinctions?

• 22:59Speaker 02

  So they each have a couple of signatures. So painful ambition looks like moving at an unsustainable pace, a strong desire to win no matter the cost. And the key phrase there is no matter the cost because there's nothing wrong with winning. We all love to do it, right? But it's like when we hurt ourselves or hurt others to get to the goal. It looks like instrumentalizing our minds and bodies to get to the goal, right? So like the 80 hour work weeks, the no sleeping, the wearing the stress as a badge of honor, all of those things. It looks like black and white either or thinking. And then purposeful, there's, there's more signatures in the book. Those are just a couple.

• 23:33Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  And then purposeful ambition is growth mindset thinking, right? Expansive thinking. It is being in a harmonious relationship with our minds and bodies, right? Like, we always want to grow. We want to learn some things, but I'm not hurting myself to get there. It is honoring the pace and moving at that speed of trust that it takes to do good work. It is being more collaborative versus hyper individualistic and needing to shine and win as an individual.

• 23:59Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. I really like the, the thing that you said around it being collaborative and collective. Winning, like you said, is great. Every human wants to do it. If you don't have every, anyone to celebrate it with because you haven't seen your friends in months, because you haven't focused on building positive relationships with your colleagues, because you stopped calling your mom.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 24:23Jemma Sbeg?

  It's kind of going to be pretty lonely.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 24:28Jemma Sbeg?

  It's gonna be so lonely.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  And we know that so much of the research says that longevity and health are connected to community and having a really supportive community.

• 24:36Jemma Sbeg?

  Actually, you're completely, you're totally right. One of the longest longitudinal studies ever done at Harvard University, which I'm sure you know, um, looked at a number of participants for like 70 plus years. And they were like, the key factor in health and longevity was, was the number of positive and, and healthy relationships that someone has with others. We are going to take a short break, but when we return, I want to talk more about how competition harms us, the ambition penalties, self sabotage, and how to truly work on your own. Sense of self in order to approach ambition in a more healthy way. Stay with us.

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• 25:52Jemma Sbeg?

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• 27:20Jemma Sbeg?

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• 27:31Jemma Sbeg?

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• 28:16Jemma Sbeg?

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• 28:31Jemma Sbeg?

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• 29:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Okay, we are back talking about the ambition trap. I want to focus in on one part of this in particular, which is how competition harms us. We kind of talked about it in relation to obviously harming our personal relationships and perhaps with our colleagues or our friends. Can you go deeper into talking about how that specifically applies to those of us in our twenties? Maybe?

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Yes, I think competition again goes back to scarcity mindset. I feel like that's the theme of today.

• 30:08Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, we're just like scarcity mindset, guys. The one word you need to know.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  Exactly. And the thing about scarcity mindset, right, is like it's a systemic and economic problem, but it has those two pieces. It has the mindset piece and the fact that it's systemically reinforced, right? So oftentimes what we see in the workplace is like, oh, there's space for only one woman or one person in their twenties or, you know, one person of color. And we're like, oh, my God, well, I've got to beat out everybody that looks like me to get this thing, right? It causes infighting in those groups. And so I think that, yes, we absolutely need to look at our own mindset. Like, where do I feel like I have to fight out this other person to win, right? There's stuff on our side of the street there, but also there's stuff that needs to shift inside of organizations so that it doesn't give us that impulse, right?

• 30:52Speaker 02

  I always say to my clients too, when we're captivated by purpose, we can't be consumed by competition. And I think this is so important, especially for work like you, like yours and mine, right? It's so easy to look on social media and be like, oh, well, this person's doing this and I should be doing this, right? But when we're so captivated and devoted to our purpose, we're not looking in the other lane. We're like, I see what I'm here to do. And it is so beautiful and I'm so devoted to that thing. And that's what gets me out of bed every day. I'm actually getting emotional saying this. Like, you don't have time or care to look around because you're so consumed with your contribution in a beautiful way.

• 31:29Jemma Sbeg?

  And you know what? I've experienced that recently, actually, now that you've said it, where when I first was, you know, growing the psychology of your twenties, and not even intentionally, people were just finding it.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Which is a beautiful thing. Congratulations.

• 31:44Jemma Sbeg?

  It was great. It was, yeah, I was so lucky, but I was so insecure because I didn't expect it. I never had this experience before.

• 31:52Jemma Sbeg?

  And I was like, I have to be doing better. I have to be making the most original and the best kind of episodes. I have to be, I have to be putting everything into this. And as it is with anything that's entertainment, you know, there are charts and there are ratings and there are all these things. And I really wish that wasn't part of this medium and I wish that it was just more organic, but, but it is. And it would really kind of took some of the joy out of it for me was competition. Now I'm in this phase and in this place where I'm just so delighted by what I'm doing. And I felt it really in the last, maybe the six months where I don't really check download numbers.

• 32:34Jemma Sbeg?

  I don't really check, uh, what, I don't really pay attention. And I think it's because I've somehow become a lot more purposeful and intentional in that there is no longer a need to prove that I'm capable of doing this and I'm capable of being good at this. Now I can just enjoy it. Um, so I like that, I like that you, you talked about that. And also like the role of joy. What do you think the role of joy is in ambition as well?

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I just want to just put a bow on that last thing that you said, because I think it's so beautiful and important. Because we do live in a world that is upheld by metrics, right? It's like same for me. It's like my book sales matter, right? But what I'm hearing from you and what's important for me is that's not the come from, right? That's not the driver for us. The driver for us is being devoted to amazing work. And then oftentimes the byproduct of that is the numbers, right? But it's like, when we set out to like hit the chart and hit the goal and like, it's so much control. And that I think eclipses joy for sure. And I want to answer your joy question, but this, there's a segue here if I can.

• 33:38Jemma Sbeg?

  I need, I need it. Tell me the segue. Give it to me.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  So like what I was just talking about with control, right? What that says to me is core wound. So in the book, when I talk about painful ambition, painful ambition is driven by core wounds. So in the book, I leverage the work of Lise Borbeau, who's a Canadian psychologist. And she talks about how there's five core wounds, rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. And as a result of each of the wounds, we wear a corresponding mask. So if you have an avoid, um, a rejection wound, the mask you wear is avoidance. If you have a betrayal wound, the mask you wear is control. That's one of mine. And so sometimes we can start to see where our wound or mask is getting in the way of actually feeling joy and contentment in the context of our work, right? So that example you gave is so perfect and classic of core wound driving the ambition.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  And that's painful ambition.

• 34:26Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  And where you are now is like beautiful, purposeful ambition, like releasing the mask.

• 34:33Jemma Sbeg?

  And I think the way I had to do that was obviously you would have done this as well. Like you have to do a lot of self-work.

• 34:40Jemma Sbeg?

  You also just have to get back to being like, I have a choice here. I can have all the success and all the good things.

• 34:52Jemma Sbeg?

  And I can hate myself for it every single day and feel like my life is burning around me. And then I am constantly in a state of urgency and in a state of pursuit. Or I can have all of this and just accept that sometimes I, I am just lucky. And sometimes this stuff, people do just really resonate with you. And sometimes you've done all the hard work and that, like that investment has paid off. You don't have to continue to prove yourself. I'm sure you find this as well. Like, how does ambition come, come down to the need to prove ourselves? Have you, have you found a link between those two things as well?

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Yes, that's classic painful ambition, right? Proving ourselves and it goes back to the core wounds. So, you know, one of my core wounds is rejection and the mask I wear is avoidance, right? So because I felt rejected as a child, I will avoid as an adult throwing my hat in the ring because I'm so worried that I'll be rejected again. And because I have this rejection wound and don't feel this sense of acceptance, I feel this impulse to prove myself over and over again. And it looks very similar for all the other core wounds as well. And so we are all born worthy, right? We're born innately worthy. Would anybody look at a brand new baby and be like, but not worthy, right? No, you look at a baby and you're like, oh my God, it's so perfect. But all this stuff gets layered on to us from our family systems, from culture, et cetera.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  We adopt it as our own and we think that we're not enough and that we have to prove that we are valuable. You're born valuable and that's the message that each of us needs to come home to. And when we realize that our desire for growth isn't coming from that place to prove ourselves, it's coming from this is actually just a natural unfolding of my truth.

• 36:34Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. And I, I really liked that you said that, like it.

• 36:39Jemma Sbeg?

  You are completely worthy, whether you are successful or not.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 36:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Like whether you choose to pursue big, great grand things, or you choose to just live a really, a really amazing and slow and simple life.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Like, yes.

• 36:56Jemma Sbeg?

  There is not one life path that is more valuable than another. As long as you are not hurting other people or hurting yourself, as long as you have happiness and kindness and joy, you could be like a New York Times perseller, you could be someone who just has a brilliant garden and talks to three people and both of those lives are like inherently valuable. I think it also comes down to this weird hierarchy we have in our society that like, if you have money and if you have success and if you have a public figure, a public facing like kind of persona, well, you must be happier than anyone else. And if you are happier, then obviously like your life is better.

• 37:37Jemma Sbeg?

  But if other people perceive you as being more successful and happier, then that even that, that adds to that even more. Some of the most successful people you meet are actually deeply unhappy.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, most, yeah.

• 37:50Jemma Sbeg?

  Most people, yeah. And like some of the richest people in the world, it's like they don't have anyone they can trust. Like they, they don't like themselves. The public doesn't like them. Like they're not, they don't seem like very good people. So what is it about this that we think is like? The secret to life.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Yes, I think I think about this all the time. And I don't think it's a weird philosophical question at all. We operate in a capitalist system, right? And capitalism says the more money, the better, right? But that's the essence of the ambition trap, because we know that we can get all of the money, all of the accolades, like all of the trophies, all of the followers. And if you don't do the work on the inside, you are still going to be miserable, right? Because the happiness doesn't live outside of us, the contentment doesn't live outside of us, the contentment's on the inside. And even in the book, I actually was really careful not to overuse the language of happiness, because even that, I think, can become a little troubling, because happiness is an emotion and is therefore transient. We're not supposed to be happy all the time. We're actually the health healthiest people on the planet are the ones that make space for emo diversity, which is all emotions coming

• 38:52Speaker 02

  and going. And so even this, like, idea of clinging to happiness, and that's the North Star, is slightly troubling, because we're supposed to feel everything. We're supposed to feel sadness, grief, happiness, joy, disappointment, all of it, not grip onto it, but let it come and go in the way that it's supposed to, which is why I'm an advocate for contentment. And so I don't think any of these people are happy, nor do I think that they're contented, because I think that they're seeking the thing outside of themselves when the work is on the inside.

• 39:19Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. No, absolutely. And I can say as someone, I've fallen into that many, many a time.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 39:25Jemma Sbeg?

  And

• 39:26Speaker 02

  I read the book.

• 39:27Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah. No, literally, exactly. And it's also this, this sense of like, I was saying this to someone the other day as well, the times as well that I've been posting on social media the most, that I've portrayed my life as being the most incredible, have also been the times that I've been hap- like, been the least content, not the least happy, also not very happy, but the least content. Because I felt like the external validation would fill some kind of hole, or would Feel some kind of

• 40:00Speaker 02

  Valuable.

• 40:00Jemma Sbeg?

  Make us feel valuable. And I think this is what this is all coming back to, right? We have an unhealthy relationship with ambition because we think that the success that ambition will bring, or painful ambition will bring, is gonna fill a hole in our life that nothing else can fill. And it's gonna fill some kind of need that can never be fulfilled by anything other than money, recognition, success. And if you continue to believe that, like you said, you spoke of your story of becoming ill from burnout. You self sabotage. You don't have good relationships. Um, so my question for you is, how do we begin to redefine this?

• 40:43Jemma Sbeg?

  How do we begin to see ourselves as valuable and see our ambition as sustainable? Um, without it hurting us?

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think this, this is the million dollar question. And I really believe it starts with the work on the core wounds. So literally in the introduction and in chapter one, I get straight into this because I'm like, I don't want to waste any time. Like this is

• 41:06Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, I love that. Yes, please.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  And so I think that we need to really understand which wounds are ours and how they're showing up in our relationship to ambition and success and work and even friendships. Like it shows up in relationships all the time. I get this question so much. So it's everywhere. And if we don't do that work on the core wounds, we are going to be constantly seeking the thing outside of ourselves because we don't feel worthy on the inside. So we need to bring as much of a salve to that wound as we possibly can. Otherwise, we're in a perpetual chase outside of ourselves. So that I think is some of the most fundamental work. And, you know, it's interesting because I don't know that the wound is ever like fully healed, right? I think it's always like, you know,

• 41:46Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Getting a little scab, a little scar, like getting better, right? Building the collagen around it. I'm

• 41:51Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Metaphor, but you know, but it's But I think every next level of our careers and our becoming, we have a different way of dealing with it. Right. It's like you're in a very public career. I'm in a public career. And because I've done work on those core wounds, because I've worked on my nervous system, you know, there's a lot of positivity, but there's also some negativity that comes with it. But I'm equipped to hold it now and it doesn't impact my value because I've done that work. Right. It's like, I think it'd be so hard to be in a career like mine or yours if we were outsourcing our value. Because every comment are, are

• 42:23Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, it's the worst. Yeah. Yeah. No, literally, I, I, I was talking to another friend of mine about this the other day. And it happens not just in this industry, in any industry, but like, um, for her, I was talking about how like she would get hate comments and it just ruins her life. Like her, her day is ruined. She cannot do anything else and that person hasn't thought about it at all. It's the same with like, you're in an office job and like, there's a workplace bully. They don't, they don't care and it's going to completely destroy you. I think that it's again, this thing, you cannot hinge your value on a relationship, on someone else's perception, on material success. All of those things are completely fallible.

• 43:04Jemma Sbeg?

  When you have an internal sense of I am worthy and I do great things and I am capable and I trust myself, you are like unshakable. Like nothing anyone says is ever going to harm you, even if it's nasty and cruel.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. I think that's so important. Hurt people hurt people, right? So they're coming from a core wound and that's so important to see. And if you can then still feel whole in that, right? And maybe there's even a learning for, for us in it, right? I think that's always a beautiful thing too, but if it doesn't take us down, like there's the magic.

• 43:34Jemma Sbeg?

  And also it stops that wound from becoming contagious, like that person who has tried to bring you down or whatever it is, like hurt people, hurt people. As you said, someone has hurt them. You, if you take it on and you let that injure you, you will continue to do that to someone else. It's why sometimes like our biggest haters are the ones that are most insecure about themselves.

• 43:59Jemma Sbeg?

  Because there's no Sorry. No, no, go ahead.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  The part about it being contagious is so true, right? If we continue to live in our wounds, then we're just inviting others to do the same. And like, so then it's such an act of service for us to do the work on ours. It's so beautifully said.

• 44:14Jemma Sbeg?

  And especially like what you were talking about before in terms of like ambition is also about community and also about collaboration. It's like,

• 44:23Jemma Sbeg?

  It's all coming together, fixing your core wounds. Like, that is the greatest gift you can give, not just to like your children or to your family members, but to anyone who comes into contact with you, you allow yourself to be this example of what ambition can look like and what a healthy relationship with self can look like, such that other people jump on the bandwagon and they're like, I'm super capable of doing that as well.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  That's where the magic is. Literally, that's what people are like, well, how do we change the world with this, right? I'm like, well, it starts with us because the minute that we do that work, we show up differently. We're in a dance with everybody around us, right? So if I go left instead of going right, now they're accommodating me and they're different too. And then there's this beautiful ripple effect out in the world. And so it starts with us, but it can very easily grow from there.

• 45:12Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, absolutely. 100%. Like, people don't realize, you know, the idea of obviously like six degrees of separation, like every single person in this, in this world is separated by maximum six degrees. It's, it's wild. Like, when you really start doing it, me and my friends do this. Sometimes we're like, um, this random person in this random country. And it's like, you can, it's always six degrees. Um, so imagine how quick that positivity can spread and imagine how quick that new vision of ambition can spread if we just really start to live it. Um, I do have a follow up question, though, and I'm sure it's one that a lot of people are asking themselves, how can we deliberately slow down without feeling like we're falling behind,

• 45:54Jemma Sbeg?

  especially in our twenties? Because I feel like this is something that people in this decade struggle with especially.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Yes, this is such a good one. And so I think there's two things. First, it is working in our zone of genius. So in the book, I talk about how, so zone of genius is a term that was coined by Gay Hendricks in his book, The Big Leap. And in the book, I talk about how we operate in three zones. So we have our genius or our exceptional zone, our excellent zone and our eh zone space that we're average at. And so when we know what our zone of genius is or what our exceptional traits are, we have to use so much less energy and time because it's our magic, right? It's just kind of innate. You don't have to push or force, right? I can see that this is part of your genius, what you're doing right now. And so you can show up in this thing in less, like, you don't need to spend eight hours a day in this, right? It's like, it's so.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Fine tuned and potent that you don't need to spend all day, every day doing it. So I think that shift from our excellent zone or our eh zone, which is where most of us start our careers because we're kind of honing. And if you can spend even just starting by 10 minutes a day in your zone of genius and then building that over time, you don't have to worry about slowing down because the contribution over in your genius is going to be so potent, it makes up for everything. And then the other piece is letting your nervous system feel safe doing less. Because we like live in a world that is moving so fast and knowledge changes so quickly and everybody's moving at a million miles a minute. And so it feels unsafe for most of our nervous systems to go slow. Like I'm in the season right now, like I mentioned before, where it's a little slower.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  It's the summer. And just because I had came off a season that was so busy, I noticed that my nervous system at first was like, is this safe? We're used to running a million miles a minute, especially for the last year. Is it okay? And I had to really do the work to let my body feel safe at this slower pace. But reminding myself, right of like, I don't need to do everything. I need to do the thing that I am best and most potent at. And I think that's true for anybody, whatever stage of their career, but especially in our twenties.

• 47:56Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, and especially as you're experimenting, right? It's okay to be like, I'm actually not that good at this and I don't have anything to prove.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:05Jemma Sbeg?

  By proving that I can be the best. Like I had this when I was in uni and I was studying economics. And I was like, I'm never going to be a top student in this subject. It's just not going to happen.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. I also studied economics and also knew that I was not going to be a top student in the topic. I was like, yeah, I'm fine with a B. We're all right.

• 48:22Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, yeah, that's when I got to micro two. I was out. I was like, microeconomics two was where I was like, this is not my future. Like this is not who I'm going to be.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, same. Our class average in microeconomics two was a thirty six out of a hundred. That was the class average. Like, we were all failing.

• 48:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, my God. No, see, I did it during COVID and I think that they were nicer to us. Because like I was, it was like, my last year was the first year of COVID. And then I also did like macro two. It was just a, it was just a lot. But you know, I remember being like, oh, my God, I've always put so much in my grades and I've always tied so much to like. My output and if I'm not good at this, like an employer isn't going to wanna hire me for this, for this one. I have to be amazing at everything, otherwise I'm not a well-rounded individual and I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, wait a second, like, I can focus more on the psychology subjects and my grade point average will stay the same because I'm doing, I, I was just like this, such a basic moment, but just this moment of

• 49:22Jemma Sbeg?

  being like, I'm not gonna give up, but I'm just gonna spend more time in my zone of genius and spend more time on the thing that I'm like, good at, because we all do have natural talents.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 49:31Jemma Sbeg?

  Um, we all have something that we, probably multiple things that we are going to be, it's gonna be easy for us, easier for us to be great at.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:42Jemma Sbeg?

  Um, and so maybe part of like being in your twenties is not just finding out what you enjoy, but also finding out what that is for you.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:49Jemma Sbeg?

  And also normally the enjoyment comes with it, right? Because if you're naturally good at something, it's easier to get into a flow state. It's easier to feel like, ah, purposeful. So honestly, it's, it's incredibly powerful, right?

• 50:00Speaker 02

  And the one thing I wanna say too is because I feel like my twenties was a process of checking off everything that I was not good at to get to what I was good at. And I think sometimes that process can feel like sticky and uncomfortable, but that's the journey, right? Of like, just being like, oh, not that thing, not that thing, not, oh, this thing, right?

• 50:17Jemma Sbeg?

  Yes.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  So if you're in the process where it's like, you feel like you've done all the things that you're not good at, keep going, cause it means that you're closer to the thing that you are good at.

• 50:24Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, so, so true. Like, and when you get there, the flow, like you will know.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:30Jemma Sbeg?

  People are always like, how will I know?

• 50:32Speaker 02

  It's undeniable.

• 50:33Jemma Sbeg?

  It's undeniable. Like you will know because it, it will just feel like you could, you could live your entire life in that, in the time that you spend doing these activities.

• 50:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:45Jemma Sbeg?

  And here's the thing, it doesn't always have to do, have to be about work.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I think that we do feel so much pressure to monetize everything that we do. And exactly what you said, it's like, if it feels sacred to keep it as your hobby, keep it as your hobby. Also, if you don't wanna do purposeful work in your day job because you wanna keep that for yourself, do that, right? There's so much to be said for the good enough job. And so, purpose doesn't have to be our job. We don't have to have the purposeful job. We don't have to turn everything into our careers. I think that's so important to hear, cause that's not how I started.

• 51:15Jemma Sbeg?

  I always say to people, if you wanna make a career out of your hobby, you most certainly have to love it 200% because the moment you start making money from something, You're gonna love it a whole lot less. So you wanna make sure you're still loving it like as much as you can. I have a friend who's like this and she's like, I don't really care what my job is. I, my life exists outside of my job. My life exists in my relationships and in my day to day. I just, I make, I'm just choosing the job that I think I can make the most money from the least amount of effort from. So I can go and have fun. And I was like, great. And that woman, I love her. She uses her sick leave. She uses her personal leave. Like she does not give an F. And I'm like, that is, that is an aligned life. That is purposeful ambition, right?

• 51:57Speaker 02

  Exactly. She is living a beautifully aligned life. Good for her.

• 52:01Jemma Sbeg?

  I've got one final question for you and it has nothing to do with ambition. Actually, it's the question we ask every single guest at the end of the episode. What is one piece of advice that you have for people in their twenties that has nothing to do with what we spoke about today?

• 52:14Speaker 02

  I would say like, it's related tangentially, but like have as much fun as possible. I think that connected to what we were saying, we feel all of this pressure to do all of these things and achieve all of these things in our twenties. But like, what about the fun? Right? It's like your joints will never be as good as they are in their twenties, probably, right? So like, you know, do the thing that's outside, like go on vacation with your friends, like do the thing that brings you the most joy. Like I think that we just put our heads down and work too hard and we miss the fun. And then we look back and we're so nostalgic and it's like, I had it so good. Why didn't I take advantage? And so think as much as you can, just really have fun.

• 52:54Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, I love that advice. That's actually good. I needed to hear this today. I was gonna sit in, I was gonna sit in my hotel room and work all day. And I think I'm gonna go do, go for a run. I'm gonna go explore in your face. I'm gonna go play. Yeah, I love that. Well, I'm gonna thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This felt like a very soulfully aligned conversation and what I really needed to hear. Where can everyone find your book? Because I think it's essential reading.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me. This was one of my most fun conversations and I love how you related everything to what you're going through, what your listeners are going through. It just makes it so much more fun to participate in. So, thank you. And you can find the book everywhere books are sold. So whether that's your favorite indie bookstore, they can order it for you or a national retailer. It is available everywhere.

• 53:37Jemma Sbeg?

  And it is also has a beautiful cover, I will say. I have, I have a copy, not with me, but at my house. And I had someone, someone over the other day who picked it up and now it's a beautiful book cover.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you.

• 53:50Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah. And I was like, and it's a good, yeah, I was like, it's a good book as well. I think she took it home with her. But um, I'll make sure that that is super accessible for you guys to find. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope it's reframed something for you in terms of ambition or success, especially in our twenties. Sometimes it is just a reminder that we need to hear. Make sure that you are following me on Instagram at that psychology podcast and that you're following us here on Spotify, Apple, iHeart, wherever you are listening to help the show grow and reach new people. And so you know when new episodes are coming out. But until next time, stay safe, be kind, maybe be a little bit less ambitious today. Be gentle with yourself and we will talk very soon.

• 54:34Jemma Sbeg?

  This episode is sponsored by Jim Shark. Jim Shark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Jim Shark and find your new favorite gym clothing at jimshark.com.

• 55:12Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year. And something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop. Because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day. Why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress. And most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns. So I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month of Whoop.

• 55:56Jemma Sbeg?

  Hey, question, are you an extra care member at CBS? Because there is literally no reason not to be. It's super easy to join and members instantly get extra big deals on things you buy most. I mean, this is stuff you're already buying, things like snacks, personal care products, all of it. And after you join, the savings just show up. Deals refresh every two weeks, but they don't last long. Head to your local CBS or open the CBS app, look for extra big deals and start saving today.

• 56:29Speaker 03

  After a long day of work, you can't wait to get home. Cue rush hour.

• 56:36Speaker 03

  Luckily, you've got easy weeknight recipes using Land O' Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your family's home. If only there was an easy recipe to washing dishes. Land O' Lakes dairy products. Find it in the dairy aisle.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.