S3 Ep341: The Case That Doesn’t Add Up | The Unanswered Death of Christian Griggs (Part 3)

On the morning of October 12, 2013, 23-year-old Army veteran Christian Griggs went to his in-laws’ property in Angier, North Carolina to pick up his young daughter, Jaden. At 10:54 a.m., he called his father Tony to say that his father-in-law, Reverend Pat Chisenhall, was yelling at him while his estranged wife Katie hid inside the house. Six minutes later, at 11:00 a.m., Tony arrived at the Chisenhall home to find his son lying face-down, bleeding and unresponsive. Pat had shot him six times with a .22 rifle. Once in the abdomen, once on the top of his left shoulder, and four times in the back. Christian was rushed to the hospital, where he was soon pronounced dead. As his family struggled to process the sudden loss, detectives began piecing together what had happened that fateful morning. What they uncovered were conflicting accounts, multiple 911 calls, and questions that would haunt the case for years to come. Try our coffee!! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www. FactorMeals.com/CrimeWeekly50Off - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY50OFF for 50% off!2. https://www. Quince.com/CrimeWeekly - Get FREE shipping and 365-day returns!3. https://www. SimpliSafe.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 50% off a new system today!4. https://www. HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 25% off sitewide!5. https://www. PDSDebt.com/CrimeWeekly - Get your FREE debt assessment today!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  So today, we are diving into part three of the Christian Griggs case. And there's been a lot of discourse about this case in the comments section, which is great. It's what we want. I think Derek and I both are engaging in that same thing together while we're filming these episodes, going back and forth. No one knows what happened. No one knows what any of these people were thinking. We can only look at the evidence and the context and try to theorize what happened there. But yeah, lots of discourse. We love it.

• 0:48Derrick Levasseur?

  And the truth is, we'll never truly know, because the people that were there, Christians, no longer with us. And then you only have the other side. So it's only one story, essentially. But I do have some housecleaning things about that, because some people were, again, mostly respectful, coming at me in the comments, wanted me to respond. I'm gonna do that, like I always do. I don't shy away from it. But a quick thing about what just happened, because the whole Charlie Kirk situation happened after Crime Con. We hadn't recorded an episode since then. This is our first episode since we've been back. So there's some episodes that have come out, and people are like, oh, you guys haven't said anything about it. What's going on? Are you just ignoring it? Well, first off, this is the first time we're getting behind our microphones. But secondly, and we're always going to be transparent with you guys.

• 1:29Derrick Levasseur?

  This is not like a surprise to anyone. This has been very highly politicized. And we know it's plutonium. There's no right way to approach this, where you're going to please everyone. Not that that's what we're trying to do, because we come out with hot takes all the time. That's what I think you guys love about us, is because we don't hide behind it. Landmines left and right. We love stepping on them. So here's what I'll say. And Stephanie and I haven't really even talked about it much. We talked about it the day it happened, and it was really brief. Here's the one fundamental thing that I think most of us can get behind it. All should be able to get behind it. We should not be out there murdering people for their, for their opinions, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

• 2:14Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a fundamental thing, I think, as part of a civilized society. When you don't agree with someone, you don't have the right to kill them. And in the way that he was killed, I don't think anybody has not seen that video, whether you liked him or you hated him. I think most sane people would watch that video and say, that is horrific. So that's kind of where I'm at on it. I'm waiting for all the facts to come out. I see all these rumors about the shooter and what his life was like and his motives. And again, super politicized by both sides. They both want to spin it here. So this is what we know so far. Charlie Kirk has been killed by a, an assassin, a someone, a coward from a roof,

• 2:58Derrick Levasseur?

  who didn't like what he had to say, so he decided to kill him. That's all I'm really willing to say at this point without, without knowing more. And that's why we haven't spoken about it, other than the fact that we haven't recorded yet. Like, I didn't do it on my social. Stephanie, I don't think you put it out on your social either.

• 3:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I, I mean, in general, in life, in, in professional spaces, I, I try to stay away from politics, uh, because

• 3:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Agreed.

• 3:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's just, it's not

• 3:25Derrick Levasseur?

  You can't win.

• 3:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's not like it used to be. And I mean, in general, I think just morally, I don't think anybody should be murdered for any reason. We believe in law and order and we believe in a functioning justice system that, you know, protects victims and punishes offenders. Yeah, this is not a crazy idea that, that we probably, yes, do lean more on the law and order side of things because we are true crime people.

• 3:51Derrick Levasseur?

  But isn't that, is, am I wrong? You have a better finger on the pulse of like, true crime content. Like, isn't that like a general consensus? Like, regardless of your political opinions, I think most people would agree. That we shouldn't be out there killing each other. Right? It sounds crazy for me to even say that.

• 4:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna be honest with you, though the landscape right now, I don't think there's a general consensus on anything. And if anything showed me that, it's the reaction of many people in the, the days following that. I was stunned.

• 4:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, the pockets of people who are celebrating this person being shot is, is crazy to me. I mean, I, again, I think the majority of you guys watching, whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, I think most people would agree that we shouldn't be out there celebrating this man's death. And if you don't agree with that, that's something internally you should probably look at, because I don't think anybody should be sitting there saying, or, or celebrating this, this person's death.

• 4:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I try to stay away from politics, just in general, even in my own brain, I try to stay away from it. I don't think it's any secret that I don't trust many people, and I definitely don't trust any-

• 5:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Both sides.

• 5:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I definitely don't trust any politicians. I definitely, I don't think that, I think this is more of a us versus them, as in us versus the people in power, not us versus each other. I'm always going to believe that, and, and I, I come from a, hey, I know history, you know, I'm very interested in history. History repeats itself, not just in America, but all over the world. Governments do terrible things to their people, and I'm not a person who's at any point going to, to not understand that the main body that's against the general public is its own government. And these are things that we have to be aware of, and we have to be aware of things when they happen, and, and ask ourselves, who benefits from this?

• 5:48Derrick Levasseur?

  I think we both agree that one thing about both sides of the aisle is they, they make a living on us being divided.

• 5:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  They do. They make a living, and it benefits them, and-

• 5:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Over, no doubt.

• 5:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  A public that is, a public that is coordinated, a public that is together, a public that is fighting the same enemy, is much stronger and much more of a threat, and that's all I will say.

• 6:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I agree. We all gotta come together. I hope cooler heads prevail. I don't want to see any type of retaliation from this because- It's not going to bring Charlie back. It's not going to bring anybody else back. And this isn't the first act of violence involving a political figure. It's happened on both sides. I think this one just really-

• 6:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Forever.

• 6:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Yeah. I think this one really grabbed a lot of people because of the video. That video is just horrendous.

• 6:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nobody should have to see that. Nobody.

• 6:33Derrick Levasseur?

  And I've seen stuff like that and I, we talked about it and I was like, oh, seen that before.

• 6:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  And kids, kids are seeing it all over TikTok, all over any social media that they are, they are exposed to this. And we are becoming so desensitized to violence and death that I, I don't know.

• 6:53Derrick Levasseur?

  It's crazy.

• 6:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's really, it's really not a great direction that we're going in.

• 6:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Overall, we're going to keep, we're going to keep an eye on it. We're going to see what develops from this. We know that the person is in custody. We're going to see what comes of the investigation. It's federal authorities and local authorities working together to kind of piece this all together. And at the time when it's right, if everything's out there and there's an angle we can cover for a crime weekly news, we absolutely will. But we have to see, because as of right now, we did put out a bolo on our Twitter when they were looking for the suspect. We thought that was important to use our platform for that. But, uh, yeah, I mean, we're, we're thinking of Charlie Kirk's family. Obviously, nobody should have to go through this. I hope that this is the last one we hear about for a while. The last thing I want is for someone to retaliate on behalf of Charlie Kirk and go after someone on the other side.

• 7:40Derrick Levasseur?

  That won't solve anything. And that's all I'm hoping for. I think you said the word unity, just a little bit of unity. I know we're never going to be fully on the same page with everyone, but there's got to be a common ground there where we can all agree at the foundational level. Like, we're going to use our words. This is going to be a battle of ideas. We're not going to, we're not going to shut up our, our competitors or the person who's on the other side by killing them. That's not the way. It's not the way. So that's all we have to say about it for now. Now for the, this actual episode and a little bit of house cleaning. And again, I won't make it long. There was a couple corrections I wanted to hit that were sent to me by you guys.

• 8:24Derrick Levasseur?

  And I believe it was from Christian's family. Uh, they shared it on Facebook or whatever, and you guys sent it to me through Instagram and, and also email. So the two corrections that they had were, they wanted to say that the first correction is that Christian was not dishonorably discharged. He received a general discharge that was restored to honorable status. The second is-

• 8:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but after his death, and we did talk about that.

• 8:46Derrick Levasseur?

  After his death, okay, we, we hit that. The second is the correction that he attended North Carolina State University for computer science. But he went to X-ray school while in Georgia before moving back to North Carolina. The final thing that I wanted to point out is I, I kind of flipped the, flipped the terminology a couple of times. It was a 22 caliber long rifle, not a handgun. 22 caliber long rifle that was used, not a handgun. Now for the comments directed towards me. Most of it I'm okay with. I thought it was a pretty civil discourse in there. I agreed that with you guys to not agree with me. I admitted that I had a bias as a father with two daughters. Um, but the only pushback I'll give is I do have a brother as well.

• 9:31Derrick Levasseur?

  And, uh, he's gone through some things, uh, with his, he's now divorced. He had a child custody dispute. And one thing I would tell him and one thing I would tell all of my friends and family. If you find yourself, whether you're a man or a woman, and you're in a child custody dispute, because this happens every single day. Make sure that you bring a law enforcement presence with you to go over to the house. Or at minimum, a family member or friend who can stay in the background, record, be a good witness, what, what have you. I strongly recommend you do not go to these places that your other residences by yourself.

• 10:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  So you mean, you mean have someone with you document?

• 10:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Document, document, document. Number one thing, don't go alone because something like this could happen, right? That's number one. So although I do have a bias, if I were Christian's friend, I would have told him at the time, even as a father, wanting to fight to see my child. I would have told him, one, call the police, two- Let me come with you at minimum. If you don't want to call law enforcement, at least let me come with you to be a witness, to be there to support you, to be there to defend you if need be. That's the number one thing. Now, some people are saying where they're conflating the stories. I'm saying, hey, to me, it looks like it could be self-defense. And then there's some commentators who are saying, well, you're white and he was black. I think you're conflating the two. I think it's two different issues. There's a racial issue and there's a self-defense issue. I'm not

• 10:54Derrick Levasseur?

  really going into the racial element of it because that would, that would force me to go into the mind of Pat. And I don't know what his biases are. I don't know what he was thinking at the time of the shooting. That would be unprofessional for me to sit here and speculate on what he was thinking at the time and what he thought about Christian's skin color. What I can see is the

• 11:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  And we did speculate. We speculated on that a bit during

• 11:16Derrick Levasseur?

  We did. You talked about it.

• 11:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, during the first up. So we did speculate and we said, yeah, it could be an issue with his race. It could be. We just don't have evidence of that. So we did, we went as far as we could with that without making allegations that could come back and, and get us in trouble.

• 11:34Derrick Levasseur?

  The way you approached it was from Pat's perspective, which is the right perspective. But when you're conflating the two of what Derek thinks with what Pat was thinking at the time, that's where you lose me a little bit because I'm not coming from that perspective. I'm looking at the evidence that we have at the scene, ballistics, window, et cetera, and coming to my conclusion. And, and, and I'm going to listen to the next two parts. I know there's a civil court case, there's a criminal case. I'm open to it. I want to hear what comes out. I also still have questions about the whole air conditioner event. I talked about it last episode where I'm uncertain that that actually occurred, where did he actually push the AC in the window or pull it out? I don't know. I'd like to hear from that impartial third party.

• 12:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Amber.

• 12:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Who was apparently there. Amber, who was there. So. I stand behind what I said so far. I love the discourse. I'm okay with the debate. We're not always going to agree. That's why I think everyone loves Crime Weekly is because it's a civil conversation. We can talk about it and we may not agree by the end of it. I just would ask for a little bit more grace when it comes to my opinions as a father, because even though that's the perspective I'm coming from, I'm also acknowledging that I am a father myself, and if I was trying to get custody of my child, I would do everything in my power to make that happen. But I can tell you here honestly, whether you choose to believe me or not, it's up to you. Based on my experience, I would not go over to that house alone, and I definitely wouldn't be banging on windows if that's what he did,

• 13:01Derrick Levasseur?

  because now I'm giving them the opportunity to villainize me at minimum. This is an extreme circumstance of what happened here, but at minimum, now they videotape me and I look

• 13:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  They have something to use against you in the custody battle of your child, and it may put that worse.

• 13:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Makes it worse. So I still wouldn't do that, and so I stand behind what I said, but I do understand where you guys are coming from, the racial element of it. You're right, I'm white, I can't speak to that. So I'm approaching it as a police officer and the evidence that we have, not what was in people's minds or hearts.

• 13:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  A lot of what you hear on Crime Weekly is stream of consciousness coming from both of us. As we go through the story, we're looking at it. So when he says he stands by what he said already, he does. He also reserves the right to change his opinion as we get deeper into the case.

• 13:46Derrick Levasseur?

  As I have.

• 13:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 13:47Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, when have I not had been open to it where I'm like, huh, okay, now I'm kind of seeing it. I have no skin in the game. I am going through the story with you. I don't hear about it beforehand, and the main reason I address it here tonight is because most of you were great, but then some people are like, oh, you don't understand, you're biased because you're admitting your bias, which creates this black-white issue. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. When I say bias, I'm talking about me as a father with two young daughters and protecting them if I was inside the home. That's different than the racial element that, you know, like I said, they're conflating two different, two different storylines here, and I'm only addressing one. So I just wanted to clarify there, although I'm sure 99% of you understood where I was coming from.

• 14:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. Well, let's dive into new information then.

• 14:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Let's do it.

• 14:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so in the hours and days following Christian Griggs' death on October 12th, 2013, detectives in Harnett County began trying to piece together what had happened on the Chisenhall property. They uncovered multiple 911 calls placed just minutes before the shooting, but the details didn't quite align. For example, when Katie was on the phone with 911 in a closet just feet away from where the shooting was happening, the 911 dispatcher could not hear the shots and Katie didn't mention hearing them either. As investigators started processing the scene, they found no bullet holes in the curtains, shutters, window frame, or glass. What they did find was broken glass inside the residence

• 15:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  all the way to the back door. The window, frame, and screen were tested for fingerprints, but none belonging to Christian were found. They were also tested for blood, and again, none was present. In the living room, investigators recovered three shell casings clustered together behind a chair. However, despite a thorough search of the house and the yard, the other three spent casings were never found. That evening, the crime scene was turned back over to the Chisenhalls and friends from the church were allowed to clean up. Three days later, on October 15th, detectives sat down with Pat Chisenhall again, trying to understand his account. Pat said he fired his rifle because he believed Christian was going to

• 15:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  kill Katie and maybe kill him too. But as the interviews went on, his story stayed vague, with Pat claiming he couldn't remember anything. Finally, investigators asked him to walk them through the shooting step by step in a filmed reenactment at the Chisenhall home. And while this reenactment would become the most detailed version of events to date, it still left some people with more questions than answers. So, after meeting with the detectives at the station on October 15th, Pat agreed to film a reenactment of the shooting at the Chisenhall property. This is how he described what happened after he and Katie tried to get a restraining order. Pat and Katie pulled into the Chisenhall driveway. Katie went

• 16:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  inside her parents' house while Pat stayed outside. At that point, Christian pulled Into the driveway of Katie's home. Pat told him he needed to leave, that they had a restraining order, even though that wasn't technically true. According to Pat, Christian became agitated, got out of the car and told him, quote, "I'll kick your ass right here," end quote. Christian then pushed him on the shoulders. So at that point, Pat turned towards his own house and saw Katie standing on the porch with a phone in her hand. He told her to go inside, lock the door, and call 911. Christian ran towards the porch, demanding Katie come out. He banged on the door and windows, yelling and cursing. Pat said that the whole thing was truly, truly scary, truly terrifying.

• 17:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  He claimed he tried not to engage with Christian, saying he had never seen rage like that before. Pat told detectives that while this was happening, he walked over to his driveway, which is on the left side of the house, if you're looking at it head on. From there, he could see the porch and Christian, who he thought might have been talking on the phone, though he wasn't sure. Pat explained that he was already on the phone with 911 at this point. When the dispatcher asked if things were hostile, he answered yes. When asked if he could leave and get to safety, he said he didn't tell the dispatcher this, but he thought to himself, "No, I can't leave Katie." Because at this point, Pat's still outside the house and Katie's inside the house.

• 18:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, so he can't flee the residence and kind of get in his car and drive away because he's thinking, "My daughter's still inside."

• 18:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. So he told detectives that he was terribly fearful for Katie's life, as well as his own. And when detectives pressed him about where exactly Christian was during this sequence of events, Pat's answer was vague. He said Christian was all over the place, running around. Pat told detectives that the dispatcher asked if he could get to a safe place. He said he thought he could get inside. At that point, he walked to the other side of the house, the right side. That's when he realized Christian had made it to the driveway where Pat had just been standing. Christian then started going through Katie's car. Pat thought this was his chance to get inside, so he walked up to the door. Christian saw him and started running towards the door as well. Pat told detectives that he thought-

• 18:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Katie had let him into the house since she had locked it. But that morning before the reenactment, Katie told him she hadn't let him in. He had used a key. She explained that she had been watching from a circular window on the far right side of the house. And when she saw him coming, she ran toward the door. Christian came up behind Pat and tried to get inside. Pat admitted he hadn't remembered this next part either, but Katie told him that they both had to work together to get the door closed because Christian was on the other side pushing to get in. They managed to shut it and Pat locked it. Christian then started kicking the door. From there, Pat said his mind got fried. He couldn't remember everything that happened after that. It was all in fragments.

• 19:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  What he did recall was seeing a monstrous rage inside Christian that he had never seen before. Pat said from what he could remember, he and Katie were still standing near the door when all of a sudden the window next to it smashed in and Katie went berserk with terror. Pat ran behind the couch, which was positioned parallel to the wall with the windows about 10 to 12 feet away. When Pat looked back, Christian was coming through the windows. So Pat ran to a nearby hall closet, grabbed his rifle and went back behind the couch. But from there, he claimed he had no clue what happened. He didn't know how many shots he fired. He thought there had been 10 rounds in the rifle, but he couldn't be sure.

• 20:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  The only detail Pat remembered from the shooting itself was what happened immediately afterward. He said he went back to the closet and found Katie inside and she was crying.

• 20:27Derrick Levasseur?

  I want to talk about this. I want to break this down. There's a lot to unpack here. Let's take our first break. We'll be right back.

• 20:36Derrick Levasseur?

  All right, we're back from break and I opened the show by doing some house cleaning and talking about the forensics of the case, the ballistics, the witness testimony from Pat and Katie, what we do have. And some of you pushed back by saying. I don't believe them. I don't trust them. That is the right argument credibility, right? Because I'm going off what they're telling us. And if we start to question what they're saying, that's when you open the door for everything that we've talked about so far, didn't happen, or it didn't happen this way. And they're embellishing this story in order to justify what they did. And so that's the better argument to make, because that's something

• 21:16Derrick Levasseur?

  I can't push back on. Your opinion of Pat and Katie and their credibility is, is your opinion. And you're justified in questioning what they're saying, especially when they say they can't remember certain details, or they're, they have conflicting stories. Here's what I'll say about that. I talked about it last episode, being in a shooting myself. I don't know if I said it in the episode, but I know I've said it to Stephanie before. One thing that the state police asked me after the shooting was how many times I fired my gun. And the truth is, I got it wrong. I said I fired two or three times. I actually had fired four times. I remember the night in question. I remember more now, but I'd be lying to if I told you that I remember every single vivid detail,

• 22:01Derrick Levasseur?

  because there was a point where it was so traumatic, your brain does kind of block certain things out. There was another question they had asked me, they said, were the lights on or off? And I said, oh, definitely on. The lights in that living room were on when we went in there. They were off. The lights were off. It was actually a flashlight that one of my partners were holding, but I was so focused on the knife. That's all I saw. I just saw the light, the knife being illuminated. That's what I remembered. So I could make an argument that they're telling the truth, but I'd also be doing a disservice to this case if I didn't acknowledge the fact that they could be lying, and that they're embellishing their story in order to justify this, this homicide. And so that's, that's where we are right now. And I think that's what this case ultimately will come down to when we get into the civil trial and the criminal case.

• 22:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Who do you believe? Because Christian's not here to tell his side of the story. And if he was, I'm sure it would be much different. It always is, even though both sides can't be telling the truth, everyone has their own perspective. So when you guys come at me and you say, hey, I don't believe them. That that's a good angle of approach, especially when we talk about the judicial process and somebody potentially being charged with a crime.

• 23:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  So what do you think about this series of events that Pat laid out during the reenactment?

• 23:13Derrick Levasseur?

  So here's my thing. There's two sides to every story, right? And the and the truth is somewhere in the middle. Do I think that Christian showed up hot and heavy and was probably throwing some, you know, some swear words around and telling Pat, I'll kick your ass and all that stuff? Probably. He's upset. He hasn't been able to see his daughter. Katie is not sticking to the agreement. And although I understand where Pat was coming from, if his story is correct, I also understand where Christian's coming from. If it were my daughter and I wasn't being allowed to see her, I would move heaven and earth to make that happen. I probably would have brought some other people with me to make sure everything stayed civil, but could have, should have, would have. We can't can't Monday morning quarterback

• 23:53Derrick Levasseur?

  it now. So do I think there was some confrontation going on there? Absolutely. Are we hearing everything that Pat said back to Christian? Probably not.

• 24:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think we're even necessarily hearing exactly what Christian said to him because a lot of this stuff is new in this version of the story. And a lot of these sort of movements are different than what Pat had originally told investigators.

• 24:19Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm not even getting to the movements yet. I'm just talking about, could Christian have showed up and said, hey, listen, I'll kick your ass. But Pat probably said, why don't you try it, buddy? You know what I mean? Something stupid like that that guys do, right? Like, just something dumb where it's two egos going head to head and there's probably a lot of back and forth. Do I think Pat was just sitting there kind of being submissive and not saying anything back? Probably not. As far as the actual occurrences that he's described, as far as running to the right side of the house and then go walking inside the door and Katie letting him in when Katie's saying, hey, nope, he used a key. The key made more sense because where to believe that Katie was in the closet?

• 24:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, she said she was watching from a circular window. So here's specifically what I kind of want to highlight. So Pat's on the phone with 911 and they're like, hey, are things hostile? And he says, yes. And then the dispatcher said, can you get to safety? And he said he thought to himself, no. No, I can't leave Katie. So at this point, Katie's inside the house with the doors locked and Pat told her to call 911. Pat's also on the phone with 911. Police are on their way. He's saying, I can't leave Katie, but if this is a self-defense thing and you had the option at this point to not re-enter that house, would it be still considered self-defense if you went back into the house? Because at this point, police are on their way, the, the door's locked, right?

• 25:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  So if Christian starts to try to get in there and break windows and do things like that, Pat from the outside could see that and then maybe do something. But he's actively putting himself back into that house. And the way he describes it is he walked up to the, the front door and then Christian saw him walking up to the front door and started chasing after him. And then Pat's like, oh, she let me in. And then Katie's like, no, you used a key. So Pat now has to pull out a key, unlock the door, get inside before Christian can reach him, even though he's in the doorway. And then as soon as he gets inside, there's this dramatic thing where Pat and Katie are trying to shove the door closed because Christian made it to the door right as Pat got inside, even though he had to use a key, which would definitely take longer than just Katie letting him in.

• 26:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  It really just seems kind of like, I guess, something you'd see on, on TV or in a movie. Like this, this dramatic series of events where you walked to the front door to get in, you had to pull out a key and use it and he's running to the door because he sees you're getting in and then you just got in in time and you guys had to shove the door closed because Christian's behind it trying to push it open. What do you think of that?

• 26:43Derrick Levasseur?

  I first want to understand the argument that you're making because I was a little confused. Are you suggesting that instead of going inside, Pat should have gotten his car and left?

• 26:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think he should have left, but the fact that you're outside the house, which means if, if, you know, this guy starts coming at you, you can get in your car and leave, knowing that police are on the way. And if Christian's running after Pat, then he's not obviously breaking into the house to get Katie. And would it be self-defense if you put yourself back into that place? Right back into the house because your guns are in there? Did you know, did you want to go back in the house because you couldn't leave Katie? Or did you want to go back in the house because you knew your guns were in there?

• 27:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, it's his house. So he has a right to go in his house, but let me, let me take a little different approach to, to answer your question. I don't believe that he, that the, you know, self-defense claim is invalidated.

• 27:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Less valid because he went back in the house.

• 27:36Derrick Levasseur?

  He decided to go back into his own home, but here is an argument I would make for you and for everybody else who's, who's with you on that. Why stay outside? When you show up and Christian's clearly upset, go inside with your daughter. Why are you putting yourself between Christian and Katie? Go inside, lock the door, call the police. Why are you staying outside?

• 27:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, if I remember correctly, when Pat had talked to the police before, he said they got there and he said he had an idea that Christian had possibly been there. And then he told Katie, go inside and then Pat wanted to go check on the air conditioner because remember it was on the porch and he was like, let me go and check on the, and it had been moved and that's when Christian pulled up.

• 28:19Derrick Levasseur?

  He should have went inside at that point, you know, he should have went, I mean, I don't know how the timing of it, maybe it was seconds, but I would have removed my, that would be retreating in my opinion. That would say, hey, listen, I went inside my home where I have an expectation of privacy. It's my right to be inside my home. I completely removed myself from the situation and went inside with my daughter. The fact that he was outside for any period of time with Christian where he kind of was in between them, I don't necessarily agree with that, but whether it's justified legally or not, I can't sit here and be a hypocrite. If I were Pat and for some reason I wasn't able to make it back inside, which I don't know how he wouldn't have been able to initially. If I know there's a guy outside

• 29:01Derrick Levasseur?

  yelling at my daughter inside my house, I'm not leaving and getting in my car and leaving her there to fend for herself. That's, I'm not doing it. Sorry. If that makes me a bad guy, not removing myself from the situation, so be it, but I'm not going to drive away and look out my rearview mirror and leave my daughter inside the house. Not happening. So, yes, I think there's somewhere in the middle there where he shouldn't have been outside alone with Christian at all. He should have just went inside and then there would have never been that need for that dramatic, you know, holding the door shut while Christian's trying to break his way inside.

• 29:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which I don't think happened. The timing of that is just so like...

• 29:35Derrick Levasseur?

  I think there's some embellishment there. Probably more was them shutting the door, maybe him booting it once, like, "Let me... You know, where's my kid?" You know, some... I don't think it was... Because Christian probably would have overpowered him, you know? We probably would have been able to get inside with momentum.

• 29:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, listen, I unlock a lock with a key every day and it takes, you know, it's not quick. It's... It takes more time than just being able to run in and have your daughter standing there and open the door for you and then shut it. And Christian sees him, he's in the driveway. How long is it going to take for Christian to run from the driveway to the door as Pat is pulling his key out, finding the right one, putting it in the key, turning it? And then just as you get the door open, you slam it and he's coming through it? It just seems a little...

• 30:14Derrick Levasseur?

  I think it would depend on a lot of circumstances, where there are a lot of keys on his ring. Did he find the key before he came to the front of the house?

• 30:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, he doesn't even remember that he used the key, allegedly.

• 30:23Derrick Levasseur?

  That's the other thing. I mean, how far was Christian away? Did Christian know him immediately? Or was he looking in the car and then as he looked up, Pat was putting the key in the door already? There's a lot of variables. This is the problem, right? Without video footage, it's two sides of the story, but one side we're not being told because that person's no longer with us, which makes this case extremely difficult.

• 30:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, so...

• 30:44Derrick Levasseur?

  If there was another side to the story, we wouldn't be covering it.

• 30:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I just find it weird that Pat, once he says he gets inside, and then that's when he starts not remembering what happened. But the fact that he couldn't remember whether Katie had let him in, or he remembered that Katie had let him in, but he'd actually pulled out a key and used it to let himself in the house is odd, I think. How do you... How do you not remember that part?

• 31:07Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree. I gave a couple of examples of not knowing how many rounds were fired or the lights being on. I'd like to think that if I had to unlock a door, I would have remembered.

• 31:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  You would have remembered that, yeah.

• 31:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Even in that traumatic of a situation.

• 31:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, he says his brain was fried when they got the door shut, right? And then Christian started banging on it and kicking it. But his brain wasn't fried before that, and he used the key allegedly before that, according to Katie. So, just a strange sort of set of circumstances. But also detectives still wanted to clear some things up. So they asked Pat some clarifying questions. They wanted to know where Christian had been during the shooting. Pat said the only thing he could remember was Christian's position at the first shot. His upper body was coming through the window. Pat reiterated over and over that he didn't remember anything beyond that. He said he thought the first shot was fired from behind the couch, but even that he wasn't certain about.

• 32:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  He also admitted he didn't know how or when Katie ended up in the closets. And with that, the reenactment ended. Detectives left and Pat was allowed to continue living life as usual. But then, two days later, he was involuntarily committed for psychiatric treatment. And the following day, he was admitted to Holly Hill Hospital. According to his attorney, Pat was treated for PTSD, anxiety, and depression, but not amnesia. He was discharged about a week later. Once doctors said he had stabilized, though he would continue needing treatment for his symptoms. On October 19th, Christian's funeral was held. No one from Katie's side of the family attended. Not even Christian's beloved daughter, Jaden.

• 32:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  For the Griggs, that absence only deepened the immense loss they were facing. And to make matters worse, they wouldn't be allowed to see Jayden again. In the months that followed, detectives continued their investigation, looking deeper into Christian's life and his relationship with Katie and the Chisenhalls. They quickly learned that while Katie and Christian had a tumultuous relationship, it seemed that Christian and Pat had always gotten along. In fact, Christian seemed to look to Pat as a spiritual advisor and a respected authority figure. Detectives also learned that Christian didn't have a criminal history. However, he did have a history of police involvement spanning multiple years. Let's Start back on December 4th, 2007, when he and Katie were still in their senior year

• 33:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  of high school, just before Katie found out that she was pregnant. On that day, Tony called 911 to report that Christian had attacked him. When officers arrived, Christian was in a bedroom of the house. All we know about what happened next is that Tony refused rescue and an assault report was filed. A little over a year later, on December 15th, 2008, the night Christian dropped out of college to move home and be with Katie and the baby, another 911 call was made after Christian and Tony got into an argument. Dolly later said, quote, "They were really just in each other's faces and neither one would back away. It was pretty scary," end quote. So Tony told Christian to leave, but he refused.

• 34:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Tony picked up the phone and dialed 911, but he hung up before speaking to anyone. He then tried to de-escalate the situation himself, but it didn't work. As things got more heated, Christian's younger sister, Crystal, who was about 14 at the time, called 911 herself. She told the dispatcher that Christian was having a mental breakdown, that he was angry and breaking stuff in the house. Records also suggest that Dolly called as well, reporting that she, Tony, and Crystal had Christian held down. When police arrived, the situation only escalated. A taser was used and Christian was arrested for resisting an officer. He spent that night in a holding cell.

• 34:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, and we're actually looking at the reports right now. I can't find the police narrative. I'm just seeing what they call the face sheets of these arrest reports.

• 34:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it says taser used, that was all I could see.

• 34:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, taser used. It does say taser used, but usually there's like a police narrative. I would love to be able to read that to get more of an understanding of what's going on here, but just off these two reports, and these are from his own family, I don't think I'm going out on a limb here by saying there's some anger issues there, at minimum. I don't know about all the psychological aspects of it. I'm not going to even speculate on that. That's not my area of expertise, but I think most people would look at this and see these reports coming from his family members and how they were afraid of him. I think at minimum, you can deduce that Christian clearly had a temper.

• 35:36Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't think there's any disputing that.

• 35:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe a little bit of self-control issues.

• 35:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, unable to regulate, you know, emotions and things like that. And obviously even once law enforcement arrived, he still didn't.

• 35:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that is.

• 35:48Derrick Levasseur?

  He still didn't calm down. That's a problem.

• 35:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  To the point where a taser had to be used?

• 35:53Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a lot. Now, we could get into a lot deeper where a lot of you guys have said in the comments, even you Stephanie acknowledged that there's a racial undertone in this area of the country. And, and is that part of it? But take that out of it for a second, as far as the taser being used. Again, go back to the, to the, the foundation of this. Christian's family called the police on him.

• 36:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  I was just gonna say that if, if there was a huge issue with law enforcement and Christian's family was aware of it, would they have called the police on their son?

• 36:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Only if they really felt they needed him. And that just tells you that they were in fear. And that wasn't only Tony, it wasn't only Dolly, it was his, his sister.

• 36:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they didn't know what was going on with him.

• 36:32Derrick Levasseur?

  They were scared. They were scared. There's no doubt about it. I don't want to look into it more than that. But when we're talking about what we're talking about here in this case, and trying to understand who Christian was and if he was capable of some of the things that Pat's alleging, I think a case could be made when looking at these reports, that when Pat says that Christian was argumentative and hostile and scary, you're seeing the same descriptions from his own family. And at least one of these incidents occurred while he was in high school. So that's before he went overseas and saw what he did, which would mess anybody up. So this is something that you have to consider when you're trying to take Pat's statement and, and verify its validity.

• 37:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm. And so Christian spends the night in a holding cell. In the morning, Katie and her parents picked Christian up from jail. And on the ride home, he told Katie what had happened. That's when the Chisenhalls decided he could come live with them. From that point forward, Christian left his parents' home and moved in with the Chisenhalls. He stayed in a separate bedroom from Katie and the baby since they weren't married. The charge against Christian for resisting an officer was later dropped. Afterward, Christian joined the army and was eventually deployed. To Iraq. By the spring of 2012, he and Katie were living together in Harlem, Georgia. Then, just after midnight on May 19th, 2012, less than a year after he came home from his

• 37:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  deployment, Katie called 911 to say Christian had locked himself in a bedroom with a gun. She told dispatch that she thought he was going to take his own life. Two officers arrived, and one of them later wrote in a report, quote, "I met Katie at the door and had her step outside. PSO Williams and I knocked on the bedroom door after announcing ourselves. Christian came out of the room and initially appeared agitated, but he appeared to calm after we began talking. Investigation revealed Christian had opened his gun safe and the weapon was partially out of the safe. Griggs stated he had the weapon out to scare his wife and had no other intention to use it in any other manner. After speaking with Christian, he expressed he had been depressed after coming back from

• 38:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  overseas and was battling an addiction problem as well as separation from his wife. The weapon, a Ruger 9mm Silver Black, was taken into custody for safekeeping. Katie, with their three-year-old daughter, decided to go stay somewhere else for the evening. Christian remained calm during the incident. No further action was taken at this time." End quote. Okay, so this is, you know, opening a whole bunch of new things that we do need to discuss. And we're gonna go to a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 39:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So what stands out the most to me about this report is that Christian allegedly admitted to the police, "I took the gun out to scare my wife." Now, was that to scare her as in, "I wanted to scare her as in I was gonna kill myself or I wanted to scare her to think that I would hurt her with this gun?" I don't know, but, I mean, he admitted to it, according to the police report.

• 39:44Derrick Levasseur?

  And this is, this is prior to the whole incident that we're discussing. So there's no reason to believe that Katie's making this story up because she knows what's gonna happen down the road.

• 39:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, the police came and talked to him and yeah, so he confirms it himself in that police report.

• 39:59Derrick Levasseur?

  My interpretation of what you said, or the way you told us the story was that he was saying, oh, I wanted to scare her as if I was gonna shoot myself. But either way, as, as a gun owner myself, you have to be responsible with your weapons and you never use them in any type of way to threaten or scare someone else. That's not their intended purpose.

• 40:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think actually, um, it's incredibly manipulative to, to ever tell somebody that cares about you that you're going to take your own life in order to get a reaction. I cannot stand it.

• 40:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Now, if he was really going through something where he was considering it, that's different.

• 40:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he may have been and may not have wanted to admit that to the police. I don't know, but...

• 40:37Derrick Levasseur?

  That's also true. My, my, my takeaway so far, and I was not aware of these reports. I don't go ahead. I was not aware of these reports. I was basing it solely off the evidence at the crime scene. I thought there was some reason to believe that Pat was justified in what he did, although I know some of you don't agree with me. I will say that when we're trying to verify what happened that day and the accounts of what we do have based on Pat and Katie's testimony, although some of the details aren't right, having all this, you know, this historical data that would support someone who would be confrontational, would be violent, would be hostile, would kick a door in or would kick a window in, I, I would, I would say that you're starting to see that here where it's absolutely possible.

• 41:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or you could argue that Christian was upset and wanted to see his daughter and Katie and her father, Pat, knowing about his past histories and being aware of these police reports, because as we said, they picked him up from the police station, he told them what happened. They may have said, oh, well, there's documented evidence that he does have an anger problem, or he does have a tendency to, you know, go off. And so we can use that to our benefit.

• 41:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Now, well, here's the problem with that. They didn't drive Christian over to the house.

• 41:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I know.

• 41:54Derrick Levasseur?

  He came on his own and he, they didn't want him there. So we already know that part of the story is Christian going to the house. On his own, when probably his family was telling him not to do that, but he refused and went over there anyways. So we know there's at least some truth to the fact that Christian was going there to do whatever he was gonna do, whether that was get his kid back or just confront Katie. Here's what I'll say, and there are a lot of comments about this as well. There's a difference between action and intention, right? There's also a difference between reason and action, right? The reason can be justified. I can sit here and say, I understand where Christian's coming from. They're keeping him from seeing his daughter. That shouldn't happen. And we know

• 42:36Derrick Levasseur?

  that there's a lot of times where you have these custody disputes and one party will manipulate whatever they can to make the other person look like the bad guy in order for them not to be able to see their children. And it's wrong in every way, shape or form. I don't condone it. However, going over to the house, even if I feel personally that Christian's reason is justified, and I can understand that, his actions are not.

• 43:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  He went over to the house initially, the day before, because that was when he was supposed to take Jayden. And he was blocked from doing that. So he went back the next day to try again.

• 43:12Derrick Levasseur?

  The reason's there, but the execution of it, right? Like, I understand as a human, you want to go in, kick down doors, you want to do whatever you want to do because you want to see your child. But we all know how that's gonna work out. This worked out the worst way possible. But at minimum, let's say he kicked in the window, or he kicked in the door, allegedly. Let's say he did that. Let's say it didn't result in a someone being killed. If the police show up, and that window was pushed in, or that door was kicked in, at minimum, Christian's getting arrested. Not gonna work out well for him in a child custody dispute. So again, it goes back to what I said, and I'm gonna say it seven more times this episode. The reason can be justified,

• 43:53Derrick Levasseur?

  the intention can be good, but the action and the execution can be poorly done and can result in you be looking like the bad guy.

• 44:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Even if it's a reactive sort of thing.

• 44:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Even if it's reactive, going over there, putting yourself in that predicament, even if the if the reason is warranted, if it's justified, right? On a personal level. It's not going to end well. And I do think, coupled with the other things we've learned about Christian, he's not thinking that way. He's thinking, I'm going to go over there and I'm going to see my daughter and nobody's going to stop me.

• 44:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, well, this incident that we just talked about, that happened in May of 2012. And not long after that, Katie and Jaden moved back in with Katie's parents in Angier. And she and Christian stayed in contact. And around a month later, when officers went to Christian's home in Harlem to return his gun, they found Katie there. Christian wasn't home at the time, so he went to the station later to pick it up. While he was there, he told officers that he'd been in counseling since the May 19th incident. He said everything has gotten better and assured them that something like that would not happen again. Then, on July 30th, Christian's military career came to an abrupt end. He was demoted two ranks to Specialist and discharged.

• 45:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Christian appealed to the Army Review Board, but they didn't make their decision until after he was killed. In the end, as we talked about, the board upheld the discharge, but ruled that the demotion was too harsh, given everything Christian had accomplished in the Army. And then they upgraded his discharge to Honorable. A few months later, on September 24th, 2012, Katie again called the police, this time to report that Christian was threatening suicide inside the Harlem home. One of the responding officers later wrote in his report, quote, "PSO Wallace and I responded to the listed location in reference to a suicide threat. Upon arrival, both officers made contact with Christian. Both officers advised Christian, we received a call from Katie stating he wanted to kill himself.

• 45:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Christian stated he had not spoken to his wife in several hours and stated he had been asleep on the couch prior to our arrival. Christian stated he was okay, but stated he and his wife were separated at this time, and Christian stated the separation was a little hard on him. Christian appeared to be okay at the time we made contact with him, and Christian did not make any statements in reference to harming himself. Christian was advised of some remedies. If he needed to talk to anyone about these matters, both officers advised Christian to contact HDPS if he had any further issues. No further action was required at this time." End quote. So this is interesting, because in the last call during May of 2012, Christian talked

• 46:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  to the police and said, "Yeah, I did, I took the gun out. The only reason I did that was to scare my wife." But now he's saying... I haven't even talked to her. I don't know what she's talking about. I've been asleep. Yeah, it's been hard. The separation's been hard, but I have not made these threats and I haven't even talked to her. So at that point, do we have to wonder if this is sort of Katie, knowing that they're separated, knowing that there's going to be a custody thing, trying to make a paper trail that makes Christian look unstable mentally? And Christian is now, because the last time he admitted to it, yeah, I took the gun. I was trying to scare her. But now he's saying, no, I didn't even talk to her. I don't know what she's talking about.

• 47:13Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm glad we're doing this. This is great. I could also say that he's just saying, I didn't say it because it's her word against his. And he already has one report of this on his record. He's having a tough time with the military. And it wouldn't do him any service to say, yeah, I did say that. I probably would lie to and say, I didn't say it. Who's going to prove it otherwise? So it depends on who you want to believe. It really does.

• 47:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. Well, the next day, September 25th, Katie called 911 from her parents' home in Angier. She told the dispatcher that Christian was refusing to leave and that they were arguing over custody of their daughter. The dispatcher noted that she said no one was in immediate danger. Deputies from the Harnett County Sheriff's Office responded to the scene, but no report was written. Then, according to Pat, sometime in early to mid 2013, Christian showed up at the house and became hostile and irate when Katie wouldn't let him inside. Pat said Christian then went into the nearby woods. Pat followed him and found Christian sitting against a tree with photos of Katie and Jaden spread out on the ground next to a gun. Pat said, quote, "And he was extremely despondent, depressed. And I asked him, was he suicidal?

• 48:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he said, yes, and talking about taking them and himself together. And it was very alarming. It was very upsetting to me." End quote.

• 48:30Derrick Levasseur?

  So based on that, now with the previous conversation we just had, you have incidents before, incidents after. So is it reasonable to believe that the middle incident that we talked about was probably there's some truth there?

• 48:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  The one with where he said, I just took the gun out to?

• 48:45Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, that's the one where he admitted to it. But then we had the conversation where Katie said he was going to harm himself. He's like, I didn't say that. But now we have a physical interaction here where Pat's saying not only did he?

• 48:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Physical interaction told to us by Pat.

• 48:59Derrick Levasseur?

  But this is before the shooting ever happened. This isn't after the fact.

• 49:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, no, there was no report of this. This is just Pat saying, so September 25th, Katie called 911. And then there, there, the deputies did show up. No report was written, but we know deputies showed up. We know that call was made. Then according to Pat, sometime in early to mid 2013, Christian showed up at the, at the house and became hostile. But this is him telling us that after he's shot him. So he's saying it in hindsight. Like I remember after-

• 49:34Derrick Levasseur?

  This story was never told beforehand.

• 49:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. Well, at least not to any-

• 49:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Law enforcement. Yeah, I mean, I get it. I get it. You have to question everything. That's what I would do. And I'm, I'm the devil's advocate guy. So I'm not gonna push back on anybody who's taken the other side here. I, I, I find that there's some credibility in this, this historical data that we have here. I think it's a combination of Christian as a child and some of the temper control issues that he had, couple that with what he experienced overseas. I feel like you have somebody who is really struggling mentally here. That's my opinion.

• 50:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  I, I, I definitely agree that he was struggling mentally and I think that even he acknowledged that multiple times.

• 50:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Agreed. Nothing wrong with that, by the way.

• 50:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  However, the only issue I have, and I have no issue with the police reports, anything documented, I'm all for it. I believe it a hundred percent. But I do have an issue with believing any hearsay from the person who has the most to lose if, if the, the killing is ruled as not self-defense, right? So anytime you're the person holding the gun, you're the person that took this person's life, and now all of a sudden you remember all these stories about them that happened.

• 50:37Derrick Levasseur?

  100%.

• 50:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  I am going to always question that because-

• 50:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that's why, that's the job of law, that's our job, right? Like my job at that point is when you tell me those stories is to try and verify them as much as I can from in, independent parties.

• 50:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  And how could you with a story like this?

• 50:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I mean, listen, I'm assuming, this is a pretty crazy story. And I would assume that Pat told a bunch of people this. I would assume that Katie told a bunch of people this. I would assume that there was, this was something that was well-known by multiple people. I mean, the guy was sitting out in the woods allegedly.

• 51:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. So what if he had it? What if he hadn't told multiple people?

• 51:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, then you can't verify it. It's something that you write down, you document, but it doesn't hold as much weight.

• 51:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  You said it was a crazy story. You'd assume he would tell multiple people. What if he didn't? Then would you believe that story less?

• 51:23Derrick Levasseur?

  I definitely think it hurts the story. Yeah, absolutely. I, I would, I would imagine that there would be other people who would be aware of this occurrence. Possibly even like Tony and Dolly. I don't know if, what type of communication they had with Christian's family at that time, considering, you know, Christian was kind of back and forth between the families. But if they all want to help Christian, which I believe at the core they did, this would have been a discussion where Pat would have left this incident and said, Christian really needs some help. He's gonna hurt himself or he's gonna hurt Katie and Jaden as well.

• 51:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. So I think you just heard this guy who's sitting in the woods next to a gun with pictures of your daughter and your granddaughter and he said,

• 52:01Derrick Levasseur?

  It's horrible.

• 52:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  I wanna, I wanna take myself out and I wanna take them with me. You'd think that would at least, you know, elicit a call to the police, just to have it on record.

• 52:09Derrick Levasseur?

  No!

• 52:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or you would tell a friend or somebody like that, right? You would tell somebody just in case, you know, if anything ever happens, this is what happened. But Pat said he convinced Christian to hand over the gun, but Christian refused to seek psychiatric counseling. Pat never called the police. The only person he told about the incident was his wife.

• 52:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Which I can understa- I can see that. Did his wife ever confirm this story?

• 52:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, it doesn't really matter if she confirmed or not. She's his wife, so it's,

• 52:35Derrick Levasseur?

  So she's just,

• 52:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's not a super reliable source, but,

• 52:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that's, that's where we get into, right?

• 52:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm just saying, if this was a real story, this is a, a, a very real threat to your daughter and your granddaughter. And you already kind of think, hey, this guy's a little, you know, unstable.

• 52:52Derrick Levasseur?

  He's going through some stuff.

• 52:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And, and he said, you know, uh, Pat said it was alarming. It was upsetting to me. But you didn't tell anyone but your wife, which is convenient, because of course his wife's always gonna back him up. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that Christian wasn't in a bad place. I'm not saying that he didn't threaten to, to take his own life, but adding another layer of now he's threatening to take Katie's life and his daughter's life. I think it's a, another step that I would need more evidence, besides the person who killed him, to say that.

• 53:23Derrick Levasseur?

  I would agree with that. I would agree with that. You definitely want more, but unfortunately, sometimes that's not what you have. And then you have to look at what he said and look at what the wife is saying and, You just have to document it. I get what you're saying. There's motive there to lie, but you could also say that this is part of the reason Pat decided to pull the trigger. If this did actually happen, knowing all of this, when he says, "I thought he was gonna kill me and Katie," if this did actually happen where he's, Christian made comments like this to him, that would be justification to believe that Christian was going to hurt them or, or, or kill them if he was able to get inside.

• 53:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree. I think, I think all of these incidents of the police having to be called and guns being involved would make someone like Pat feel, you know, if I don't escalate, then, then they will. Also though, with my reservation of, "You never called the police," even though that's a pretty viable scary threat, and two, "You never told anyone but your wife," and three, despite all of this happening, Pat later allowed Christian to move back in with Katie and Jaden. Did you consider it a viable threat? Were you really alarmed? Were you really upset because you didn't stop this person that you're painting as a mentally unstable person who's threatening to kill your daughter and your granddaughter? You didn't stop him from rejoining them in the same residence?

• 54:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, I'm with you there. He wouldn't be back in my house, that's for sure. I also-

• 54:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. I know, I know he wouldn't. With you, no.

• 54:48Derrick Levasseur?

  I also, what's interesting is that people believe Pat really hated Christian and that this was something that was boiling over and he was looking for an opportunity.

• 54:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  I would say there's no evidence of that, yeah.

• 55:00Derrick Levasseur?

  But, but people saying like, maybe because of the color of his skin, that he didn't like him, from the, from what you've relayed out to us tonight, it seems like Pat and Christian were pretty close at one point, and Pat gave him multiple chances to live under his roof. So I don't, doesn't sound like a guy who hated Christian and was looking for an opportunity to separate him from his daughter.

• 55:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  But also doesn't sound like a guy that genuinely thought Christian would hurt his daughter or his granddaughter.

• 55:23Derrick Levasseur?

  That's fair, that's fair. I think if he let him back into the home, either Pat's dumb or he felt like, "Hey, Christian's going through a bad time, he's dealing with some things, we're gonna get through this."

• 55:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  He let him back in the home, and then a few weeks later, after Christian asked for his gun back, Pat returned it to him.

• 55:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yep.

• 55:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  And around that same time, Pat also baptized Christian in his backyard pool. So maybe you're right. Maybe it's just somebody who's like, you know, I'm

• 55:48Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm gonna help this kid out. We're gonna get him. We're gonna get him through this.

• 55:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm an arm of God. I'm, you know, I think everybody's redeemable. Everybody has good in them. You just gotta bring it out, et cetera, et cetera.

• 55:56Derrick Levasseur?

  I'd also wonder if there's some accounts from outside parties that could maybe confirm that Pat was in possession of Christian's gun for a period of time. That wouldn't give us the whole story, but it would verify at least one part of it that there was something that occurred where for some reason, Pat was holding on to Christian's gun. The witness may not know why, but that would at least give some more credibility to the story, even though we wouldn't have all the details. Again, that's not our job, Stephanie. That's the police department's job. They're the ones that are supposed to be verifying that information, but hearing that story and hearing that Pat held on to his gun for a little bit before giving it back to him, that would be something I would try to verify.

• 56:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that, I think I can speak for both yourself and me, and we both have daughters. If my daughter's boyfriend ever said that, ever, especially after the series of events that had led up to it, not only would he not be living anywhere near my daughter on my property, but if I had his gun, he would never be getting it back. You'd have to go to the police. You're gonna have to go to court. You gotta do what you do.

• 57:01Derrick Levasseur?

  He'd be selling that gun.

• 57:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's, it's gone. I don't know where it is. I lost it. I don't know where it is.

• 57:05Derrick Levasseur?

  That gun would be, I'd say, hey, listen, you can come back, but no more guns. You gotta sell the guns or you gotta keep them at your parents' house. Simple. They wouldn't be under, under my roof. Absolutely not. I completely agree.

• 57:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. Well, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 57:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, we're back. So Christian's parents, they later said they never knew about these suicidal threats. Neither Christian nor the Chisenhalls ever told them about it. Dolly said, quote, "No one mentioned it to us. When Christian came home, he didn't show any signs he had any issues like that. I know that the biggest thing he said to us was that he wanted to be there for his daughter, and that was always first and foremost, that was on his mind," end quote. 911 call was on October 11th, 2013, the day before Christian was killed. This is the call involving the air conditioner. Like we covered in part two, there was three different accounts of what happened with that AC unit and none of them matched. It's unclear which, if any, are accurate. What we do know is that when Christian got to his parents' house later that evening,

• 58:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  he didn't seem especially upset. Certainly not like someone who had just ripped an air conditioner out of a window. I personally don't find that to be any sort of evidence that he did not do that. My evidence, yeah, it's like, yeah, but you had to drive home to calm down.

• 58:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Right. Everybody does that, not just Christian. I mean, they're one person to a certain individual. And then when it comes around their family and friends and parents, they're the best thing.

• 58:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or, I mean, just in general, it's like I was rageful when I ripped the air conditioning unit out of the window and now I feel better. You know, it's like, it's, but I would, I consider Amber, who was Katie's friend, I consider her testimony of it a lot more important, where she was like, yeah, I was there, he was like at the window and things, but I never saw him remove that AC unit or push it in or pull it out. That's more of an important kind of testimony to me.

• 58:59Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree. What does she, she has no skin in the game.

• 59:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, well, actually, you'd think she'd have more skin to defend Katie being her friend.

• 59:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Most people, I'd like to think that regardless, friend or foe, they're, they're not going to lie to police because if you do, now you're in a, now you're in a storm as well.

• 59:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  At that point, Christian's dead and, you know, it's like, holy shit, I'm not trying to.

• 59:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Exactly. I don't want to get in the middle of this. I'm not lying for nobody.

• 59:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't want to be in this. I'm just going to say what I know and I'm going to fade to black. I don't want to have anything to do with this. Yep. So after learning about all these 911 calls, the investigation into Christian's death continued. Detectives stayed tight lipped about what they were finding, repeatedly telling the public they still weren't sure whether they were going to press charges against Pat Chisenhall. Then, at the start of January 2014, Christian's autopsy report was released to his parents. That's when they learned for the first time that Christian was struck once in the top of his left shoulder with the bullet traveling in a downward path. That wound was not fatal. Another shot entered his abdomen, just above the navel, moving from left to right. Slightly downward. That shot also was not fatal.

• 1:00:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  The remaining four bullets all entered his back and those were the fatal wounds. They came in pairs, hitting his lower to mid back and traveling upward. Two fragments lodged in his spinal column, leaving him paralyzed. The pattern of injuries indicated that Christian was either face down or bent forward from the earlier shots when he was struck in the back. This left Christian's parents wondering how Pat's story of shooting their son through the window could be true. A few weeks after the autopsy results were available, a detective with the Harnett County Sheriff's Department came to the Griggs's home to tell them that the homicide investigation was officially being closed with no charges filed. According to the Griggs, this detective said that Pat was an upstanding member

• 1:00:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  of the community and not someone they believed was capable of murder. He also pointed out that Christian had been on Pat's property and said the case fell under the castle doctrine, a law that allows homeowners to use deadly force if they believe someone is breaking into their home and poses a threat. But here's the thing. The castle doctrine doesn't mean a homeowner can fire no matter what. The threat has to be immediate and ongoing. If the danger stops or retreats, the protection no longer applies. And that was especially important in Christian's case because he had been shot in the back. When the Griggs asked about how self-defense could explain those four shots, they were told Christian may have been turning inside the window

• 1:01:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  when Pat fired continual rapid shots from his semi-automatic rifle. Detectives also mentioned that they did not believe Katie pulled the trigger despite her history with Christian. The Griggs asked if gunshot residue testing had been done on Katie and Pat, and they were told that no testing had been done.

• 1:01:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, so assuming it was Pat that fired the rounds, because GSR should have been done, it wasn't. But assuming it was Pat that fired the rounds, I believe it was episode one where I said this, maybe episode two. It's all a blur at this point. This is the key to the case right here, right? I think it's very easy if you take everything at face value to justify the first two shots. Christian's breaking into the window. He's leaning inside the window. You fire two shots. That's it, right? It's those four shots in the back, right? There is a possibility that as this all happened in a matter of seconds. I just said to you guys a little while ago, I didn't remember how many shots I fired. I just fired until this threat was over, or at least I perceived that the threat was over, right?

• 1:02:29Derrick Levasseur?

  In Pat's opinion, from his perspective, Christian's still being in the window, even though he was turning. He may have felt that Christian was still a threat, was just trying to use his back to maybe break through the window. I'm not even going to try, attempt to explain what Pat was thinking. However, the other side to this, which you just explained through the castle doctrine, is that if Christian realized he had been hit and said, oh, man, I just got shot. I'm out of here and decided to retreat and get away from the window because he knew he was injured. And Pat continued to fire. That is not justified. That now goes from self-defense to murder. And the same thing could be applied to Rhode Island.

• 1:03:10Derrick Levasseur?

  If someone breaks into my home and I shoot them to protect my family. And at that moment, whether I hit the person or not, they decide, wow, I, I chose the wrong house. And they start running out of the house and I go down the stairs and I shoot them in the back. Guess what? Even though they're inside my home, that is now first degree murder. Or at least second degree murder. These four shots, this is the, the linchpin of this whole case.

• 1:03:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  So let me ask you something because Christian was not found in the window. He was found on the porch.

• 1:03:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course, yeah, he wouldn't have, yeah.

• 1:03:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  So if those four bullets that all entered his back and were fatal, as we know, two fragments lodged in his spinal column, leaving him paralyzed. So if he was in the window, turning in the window when those fires, those shots were fired, how would he have been able to get back out onto the porch? Cause.

• 1:04:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, when you look at the picture, we can put it up right here. The window is on the porch, so he would have slumped right down, right there in front of the, onto the porch.

• 1:04:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  There was no blood on the window from him.

• 1:04:10Derrick Levasseur?

  There wouldn't necessarily be blood. There wouldn't necessarily be blood, especially the way it enters and where it enters. Does it hit an artery? Does it hit something that's has a lot of blood in it at that moment? I mean, there was no blood on the porch whatsoever after the shooting.

• 1:04:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  There was no blood on the window, window frame, window, the window itself.

• 1:04:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's something where-

• 1:04:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  If he's in the window and he's being shot six times.

• 1:04:31Derrick Levasseur?

  So, well, he's, he's outside the window, right? Like, he's not inside the window. He's on the window, he's pushing it in allegedly.

• 1:04:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, he said his whole upper body was in the window.

• 1:04:40Derrick Levasseur?

  In the window frame, like, not in the glass. So what I'm saying is the bullets are traveling through the window towards Christian, and that he's inside the window frame. It doesn't mean there's gonna be an explosion of blood when he's hit. That's what I'm trying to say here.

• 1:04:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, he, he broke through the window.

• 1:04:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Correct.

• 1:04:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then his upper body was through, yes, through the window frame. So like, his, a portion of his body would have been inside the house.

• 1:05:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Correct. I, see, I think our interpretation of inside the house is different, which could be the, the disconnect here. I'm assuming that, like, I don't think his head and shoulders were inside the window. Well, let's go down that road for a second, okay? If he is inside the window, head and shoulders, right? And then the window kind of like, it goes inward, it doesn't open upwards, so it like, kind of folds inward. If his head and shoulders are inside the window, that explains the first two shots, okay? Shoulder and the abdomen area. However, i- this would go against Pat, by the way. If his head and shoulders are inside the window and you can clearly see Christian making eye contact with Pat from inside the house, then he knows what he's shooting at at that point.

• 1:05:47Derrick Levasseur?

  And to be shot in the back, you're not gonna twist around inside the window. You would back out of the window and retreat. And so at that point, in defense of anybody who says this is not justified, I would agree with you there. If Christian backs out of the window, turns around, and then proceeds to go off the porch, but before doing so, Pat fires four more rounds, then that's a problem for Pat. The other angle, which I was saying is, he's in the window, he's trying to break it out, his body is inside the window, he's not necessarily through yet. So as Pat is shooting, and there does appear to be some type of blinds there as well, he might not have a full picture of what he's shooting at. And when he shot Christian in the shoulder and in the abdomen, he wasn't even sure of that.

• 1:06:31Derrick Levasseur?

  So he continued shooting until the figure that was inside the window was no longer inside the window, which would have been when Christian slumped down onto the porch.

• 1:06:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm gonna try to clarify this and there's a few people, I mean, we can even ask Christian's family, but I want to try to clarify this, the body positioning of Christian.

• 1:06:52Derrick Levasseur?

  The only one who would know would be, would be Pat.

• 1:06:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  But, but Pat, as far as I know, did say that he thought, that the, that Christian's upper body was through the window already. So if that's the case.

• 1:07:03Derrick Levasseur?

  The, the phrase is through the window. What does that mean?

• 1:07:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Through the window. So if that's the case, I, the way I see it is you would have gotten shot, and then if you got shot in the back, because they said he was turning in the window, if you got shot in the back, you're paralyzed, that's where you would have remained. You wouldn't have been able to, you sort of would have been folded over, half of you outside, half of you inside. So we do have to clarify that, but.

• 1:07:28Derrick Levasseur?

  We do, because I, I, I definitely, weigh in down in the comments below as well, like, I'm not seeing him so far in the window that when he shot in the back, he would fall backwards and laying on the window as it's like ajar. I see it more of his arm, his chest, maybe in the window frame, through the window, and then as he's spinning around in the window as he's being shot at, he falls forward, right? He falls forward because his momentum is taking him away from the window as he's shot in the back. Which, by the way, still doesn't paint a good picture for, for Pat. Because if you really want to go with this not being a justified self-defense, I think it's better for that angle that Christian

• 1:08:10Derrick Levasseur?

  was on the porch and not in the window. Because if he was found laying on the window, then that means as Pat was shooting him, he was still technically inside the home. You know, as we're going back and forth on this, and we're debating what position Christian was in when he was shot during, you know, each individual shot, you know what would have really helped, helped with this? Using the kaleidoscope system, which is a laser system, or using trajectory rods, right? Recreating the scene, using a mannequin.

• 1:08:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  You mean doing police work?

• 1:08:39Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, that little investigatory thing where you kind of whip out the old tools, you actually do a little detective work because what you could do. Put a mannequin in that window, have Pat tell you how Christian was positioned.

• 1:08:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can't remember. Remember, his mind was fried at that point.

• 1:08:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, regardless, you, based on how Christian's injuries are, right? The angles in which they go into his body, you recreate that scene. Where you lay Christian on the window, you lay the mannequin on the window. And you, you trace each round. And you see what angle Christian would have had to be at in order for those rounds to enter his body at those angles, right? And then that would have kind of put it to rest because we wouldn't be going off Pat's story. We'd be going off the science. So, trajectory rods, little glow sticks, right? You put them in the wound on the entry side, you put them out the exit side of the wound. And you can determine the angle in which the, the individual was shot and where most likely they were shot from.

• 1:09:33Derrick Levasseur?

  The fact that we don't have that is not the way this should have been done because we're going off Pat's story. And I will tell you this, this might surprise you, Stephanie. As we're breaking down the shots themselves. I still stand behind the fact that if I'm inside my home. And an individual, whether it's the boyfriend, the husband, the father, the baby's father, I don't care. If I lock my door and I tell you to go away and you break inside my home. I am justified in protecting my home. However, the extra four shots. I'm, I'm, I'm reconsidering how this would have been regardless of what Christian did before or after. I'm reconsidering these four shots.

• 1:10:16Derrick Levasseur?

  And if they're excessive, because if they are, even though the initial shooting would be justified in my opinion. There's also a possibility that it is self-defense at one second. And the next second, it's now a murder. Two things can be true. I know I say it all that time, right? Like, so I really have to dissect that. I have to digest it for a little bit as we go through this episode because I can agree with one decision in this whole ordeal. But ultimately decide that the, the shooting itself was excessive. And therefore makes it not justified, not self-defense.

• 1:10:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I guess if the first two shots happened and then Christian began to retreat from the window.

• 1:10:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. If he's pulling himself out.

• 1:10:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you're still shooting.

• 1:11:01Derrick Levasseur?

  He turns his back to you. He's not gonna come through the window with his back.

• 1:11:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which appears that that's what happened because he was shot in the back four times.

• 1:11:06Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't necessarily disagree with you.

• 1:11:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's concerning. Yeah.

• 1:11:10Derrick Levasseur?

  That is concerning. I agree. And that's why we cover these cases, right? That's why we talk about them. That's why we don't come up with an opinion right off the rip and we're open to changing as we go. I still gotta hear more because we will save it. We'll save it for the end. I could talk about the whole thing right now, but there's a lot more to go.

• 1:11:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, the Griggs couldn't believe the sheriff's office had closed the case. To them, there were too many unanswered questions and it didn't feel like a thorough investigation had been conducted if officials were only theorizing how Christian was shot. And I think that's basically what we just said, right?

• 1:11:40Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree. I don't disagree with them at all.

• 1:11:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  We agree a thorough investigation was not done. We agree that some sort of ballistics should have been done. Some

• 1:11:47Derrick Levasseur?

  No pushback.

• 1:11:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  So that that's true. So Christian's family has every right to feel that way at that point.

• 1:11:53Derrick Levasseur?

  100% warranted.

• 1:11:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  So they were devastated by the decision and by the claim that Christian had been killed in self-defense. Wanting answers, they met with the district attorney to question both the investigation and the conclusion. The DA, who had reportedly previously been law partners with Pat Chisenhall's attorney, he told them he would look into it, but the Griggs never heard back. And later, Tony called the DA's office himself to ask why Pat hadn't been arrested and how shots to the back could be considered self-defense. And according to Tony, the DA replied, quote, "I'm not going to fuss with you," end quote. Then the conversation ended. Now, once again, we have, you know, this is Tony's version of what

• 1:12:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  the DA said. Does this sound like something the DA would have said? Yes. We've seen in many cases.

• 1:12:42Derrick Levasseur?

  I've had it happen to me.

• 1:12:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  We've seen in many cases, DAs make a decision and then that's it.

• 1:12:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Allegheny County hated me. They kicked me out of their building.

• 1:12:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Did you ever see the Breaking Homicide episode?

• 1:12:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Who was the victim?

• 1:12:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Cody Joyce.

• 1:12:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, I did.

• 1:12:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Kicked me out of the building.

• 1:12:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they're like, we've already made a decision on this. And yeah, okay, we'll look into it.

• 1:13:00Derrick Levasseur?

  How could you kick this face out of your building, Stephanie?

• 1:13:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  I couldn't do it.

• 1:13:03Derrick Levasseur?

  I had my cool brown leather jacket on. My hair was all slicked back.

• 1:13:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Homicide jacket.

• 1:13:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that jacket, man. That was definitely retired. Not my normal attire for investigations, but it is television.

• 1:13:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  We've dealt with this. Praveen Varigas is another case. Lovely. It spoke to us about how, you know, she went to the district attorney after and she's like, hey, what's going on? And he's like, oh, we'll look into it. She doesn't hear back. She doesn't hear back.

• 1:13:27Derrick Levasseur?

  They make up the decision. It's over.

• 1:13:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  She keeps calling. It's just something they said, we'll look into it to buy time to get you out of their hair. And then when you finally become a nuisance, they tell you straight out like, hey, this is done. Like just go away. Exactly. So pretty valid, but once again, only according to Tony. But I believe that the DA probably said something along these lines, like, stop calling me, man. The ruling's been made. The decision's been made and we're not going back on it. End of story.

• 1:13:52Derrick Levasseur?

  I had a detective do that to me as well. Yeah. Yep. They're best friends until you're like, okay, well, what's going on? And they're like, hey, listen, I don't have time for this. I have other cases.

• 1:13:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, exactly. So let's take our last break and we'll be right back.

• 1:14:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. So none of this was made public at the time. Authorities didn't even announce that the case had been closed until nearly a year later. In the meantime, local media continued reporting on Christian's death. At the end of January 2014, WRAL spoke with Pat, who said he was still receiving mental health treatment and had not yet returned to his pastoral duties. When asked about the shooting, Pat said he remembered Christian trying to break in and that he saw a rage in Christian he had never seen before. He said Katie was scared, so he picked up his rifle and just started firing. Christian's parents pushed back, asking, how can you defend yourself shooting a man four times in the back?

• 1:14:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  How are you defending property or your home? Did Christian snap? No. Pat Chisenhall snapped. He was the one that was armed that day, not Christian. Christian was there to get his daughter. So in December 2014, the district attorney's office formally announced its decision to close the case. They said that although Christian's death was a tragedy, it was not murder. It was self-defense under castle doctrine. According to the DA's office, the six shots had all been fired from inside the house towards the window Christian had tried to enter. They argued he wasn't intentionally shot in the back. He had simply turned away after the first shots were fired. Which, I mean, if you turned away after the first shots were fired,

• 1:15:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  then you're, I think, trying to leave, trying to get away from being shot more. But, okay, he just simply tried not to get shot more and tried to turn away from the window.

• 1:15:42Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm on board with you here. I agree with you in hindsight, looking at this and kind of dissecting each round and where it went. You're responsible for every round you fire. However, the other side of that coin is going to be, here's a guy inside the home, not a professional, firing until the figure is no longer in the window. And we know that that Christian was still in the window for all six shots, because if he hadn't been, those rounds wouldn't have hit him. So even though he was turning around, which I'm on board with you, I'm not even...

• 1:16:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, he could have been, he could have turned and like gotten a crouching position with his back to the window to leave, and that means he's not in the window anymore. He's standing directly or crouched directly in front of the window, which you can still shoot through the window because apparently it's already broken.

• 1:16:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Depends on the angle. That's why you need the trajectory rods.

• 1:16:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:16:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Because if Pat was at level with him, he would, he would still have to be visible from the window to hit him, or it would have hit the window frame.

• 1:16:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, if you didn't see him in the window, but you're still shooting through the window, and he was still on the other side of it, even if he was trying to retreat, then you might not see him, but if you're not seeing him, should you still be shooting through the window?

• 1:16:51Derrick Levasseur?

  No, you shouldn't. I said that in episode one, that you're, and I just said it again, you're accountable for every round you fire, even as police officers, when we're firing rounds into a, in a search warrant or whatever, if a round goes through a wall... That bullet's still attached to us and that's why you have to use the right type of ammunition. So it doesn't go through walls.

• 1:17:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I mean, is law enforcement held to a higher standard than an average citizen?

• 1:17:12Derrick Levasseur?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:17:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Who has a firearm?

• 1:17:14Derrick Levasseur?

  A hundred percent, and that's why the standard that I'm putting forward is not the standard that a civilian would be held to. Because I will tell you this, if I had shot Christian as a police officer six times, four in the back. It's over for me, as it should be. Because I'm trained. That's the lens that we have to look through with Pat, because I think that's the lens that the DA is looking through it.

• 1:17:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think you might be right. Well, the explanation doesn't make a lot of sense to us and for the Griggs, it didn't make any sense either. They couldn't understand how the DA had reached that conclusion, but the office refused to release the file that outlined their decision not to press charges. Speaking out publicly, Tony said, quote, "The DA has what is called prosecutorial discretion, but at some point discretion falls off and it becomes discrimination. Had I perpetrated the same act and shot his daughter six times on my front porch, there's no doubt in my mind that I would have been arrested that day. There's no doubt in my mind, and I should have been arrested that day because that is what the law says." End quote.

• 1:18:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then Dolly added, quote, "My son was shot down like an animal." End quote. So actually, let's look at it from that way. If it was Tony, a man, a black man, in the house, and it was Katie, a white girl, outside the house, and he had shot her six times, four of those times in the back, do you think he'd be getting the same benefit of the doubt that Pat received?

• 1:18:40Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, he wouldn't. But I wouldn't go the angle of because he's black. I would say because he's a man. Tony would have to find a way to justify by saying, hey, Katie could have killed me if she got through the door. And a reasonable person would have to believe that. So he's not wrong. He's not wrong.

• 1:18:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, Christian's parents refused to accept the DA's conclusion. They repeatedly asked the DA's office to bring in the State Bureau of Investigation for an independent review, but the office always said, "No." Dolly even wrote to the governor and the FBI directly, but nothing came of it. And that's because in North Carolina, only two people can request that the FBI become involved, the DA or the sheriff, no one else, not a judge, not a member of Congress, not even the state attorney general, which I don't like this, okay? If you're so set on your decision and you believe you're right, you should not be blocking a different investigation, an external investigation. You should not be blocking another body of law enforcement coming in and looking over

• 1:19:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  your investigation. And I think it's really weird to have in North Carolina that only two people, the DA or the sheriff, can request that the FBI become involved, not even a member of Congress, not even the state's attorney general. So really, you're like limiting, you're basically, I think, encouraging corruption. Because if the DA's corrupt and/or the sheriff's corrupt, or they're both corrupt, there's no higher body now that can challenge them or put their ruling and their decisions into question.

• 1:20:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Completely agree with you. If I know that I've done my job, and I've dotted my i's and crossed my t's, and there's still a lot of controversy surrounding-

• 1:20:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Questions, yeah.

• 1:20:23Derrick Levasseur?

  -the case, and also involving my credibility as an investigator, as an agency, I'm gonna say, "Bring it on."

• 1:20:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bring it on, come on in.

• 1:20:32Derrick Levasseur?

  I want, I want to get it right.

• 1:20:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, clear my name.

• 1:20:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Bring someone else in here. I want an independent party to go through the case and see what conclusions they come to, because-

• 1:20:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Put this to rest.

• 1:20:42Derrick Levasseur?

  If you, if you look, and it doesn't always work, it's not for everybody, but when you have an outside party come in and they validate what your findings, usually the rumblings quiet down, because now it's a second party who's come in and said, "No, we agree with them."

• 1:20:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  And the, and the option of like, calling it a conspiracy gets less plausible-

• 1:21:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Less likely, because now-

• 1:21:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because now there's more people involved, and it's on a greater scale, and you'd have to really believe that all of these people were involved and not just a few small-town cops.

• 1:21:13Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right, but it shouldn't be for the investigator to quote-unquote "clear their name." Ultimately, the investigator should want to get it right, and if the resources are available to have a second look be taken- You should exercise that right. And so here, not doing that is a mistake. And there's a lot of cases like this. Meghan Trussell being one of them. That was just on earlier this week for Crime Weekly News. That's another case where the case has been closed at this point. We're only asking that it's reopened so that another party within one of those agencies can look at it. And they're refusing to do so at this point. And it's the question is why? So when you don't answer that question of why, it allows for a lot of speculation.

• 1:21:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. And I don't like it. I don't like blocking a further investigation.

• 1:21:58Derrick Levasseur?

  This is something that you and I are completely on the same page with.

• 1:22:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it makes you look a little like you might have something to hide. So the Griggs took matters into their own hands. They hired an attorney and a private investigator. And what they uncovered made them even more convinced the original investigation had been incomplete, to put it nicely. For example, detectives noted damage to the Chisenhall front door frame around the lock, but they never determined whether that damage existed before the shooting. They just assumed it had come from Christian. Because remember, Pat said he was punching and kicking the door. Detectives said the curtains behind the glass were separated and pushed inward. Yet they found no bullet holes in the curtains, the glass, the shutters, or the window frame. No fingerprints belonging to Christian were recovered from the window. No blood either.

• 1:22:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  The Griggs couldn't understand this. If Pat had fired into Christian as he was coming through the window, how could there be no bullet holes, blood, or fingerprints there at all? I agree. I know you keep saying, oh, there necessarily wouldn't be. But I agree. There'd be something there.

• 1:22:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm only going off the one photo. So I think we all, as we're going through this case, have a vision of how this went down. Right? Most of us are wrong. Right? So we have to be inside that house and understand the position that Pat was in. Was he sitting? Was he standing? Was he crouching? How close was he to the window? What was the angle in which he was shooting Christian at? I ask this because when you go back to that photo, And you see the position of the window that it's in after the after the fact. You can see that it's a jar from the top. It's on like an angle. It's on like a pitch. And so if Pat is only three feet away from the window and he's standing up and he's almost

• 1:23:41Derrick Levasseur?

  shooting in a downward trajectory at Christian, it is very possible that all of those rounds hit Christian without ever hitting a pane of glass because the window, especially from this picture, is wide open. Now, that's not me speculating. I'm just saying it's possible based on an angle, but without knowing where exactly Pat was standing, what position he was in, how he was holding the rifle, all of these little details that would have been answered by a trajectory test, right? Ballistics test. We don't have that and we're left to speculate, which is why this case is so polarizing. Because if it was, if it was done right, we wouldn't be here.

• 1:24:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, maybe, yeah.

• 1:24:18Derrick Levasseur?

  We would have our answers. We may not like the answers, but we would have answers.

• 1:24:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe not the same answers we have today, but

• 1:24:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Correct.

• 1:24:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  The right answers, right?

• 1:24:25Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right.

• 1:24:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  So investigators also noted dirt and a broken flower pot on the porch, but they never tested the shards for fingerprints or examined the layering to determine whether the glass landed before or after the pot was broken. They didn't check Christian's shoes for fragments of glass or soil, and the bottoms of his shoes weren't photographed. On top of that, the medical examiner never received Christian's clothes from the police. Because of that, they couldn't determine the range of the shots. The clothes were never tested for blood or glass fragments either. In the end, it seemed like so many pieces of evidence were left untested and no one could actually prove Pat's story about Christian coming through the window. Investigators had simply taken his word for it.

• 1:25:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Beyond that, no fingerprint analysis was ever performed on the 22 caliber rifle used to kill Christian. That meant there was no way to confirm who had actually fired the weapon. The Griggs also said they were told no gunshot residue tests had been done on Pat or Katie or their clothing, but later, when they picked up Christian's belongings, they were presented with a chain of custody document to sign. The document showed that gunshot residue tests had in fact been performed on both Pat and Katie. The results weren't listed, and for the Griggs, it raised an even bigger question. What else had they been misled about?

• 1:25:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's something. The fingerprints, though, I will say, just to push back on that, that would, that wouldn't help you because more, Pat's fingerprints are all over the gun. It's his gun. Is it possible that Katie had shot that gun before? Her fingerprints would be on it as well. So that's kind of a nothing burger. Even if her fingerprints are found on it, there's, you can see fresher prints based on how defined they are, but there's no, there's no expert out there that's going to say, oh, these prints are fresher than this one, meaning this was the last person to hold the gun. So that's not an angle. The door being broken, that's something I dealt with a lot as a patrolman, because we'd have domestic assaults or domestic disputes where we would say the door was broken after a guy tried kicking it in.

• 1:26:26Derrick Levasseur?

  And we would have to do certain things. We would have to take photos of the hinges, show that the door didn't shut properly anymore, meaning that if the door hadn't been broken in that, at that night.

• 1:26:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so if it had been broken before that, then these people would have been walking around with a door they couldn't close.

• 1:26:43Derrick Levasseur?

  With an open door. We also look for little pieces of wood fragments or metal fragments on the ground that wouldn't have been there. So these are all things that you can do that is basic skill sets where you say, hey, listen, I know that it was broken today, but I need to show that to a jury potentially. I need to, I need to document these things and paint the picture so that everybody knows what's going on.

• 1:27:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I find it more strange that the Griggs were told GSR tests had not been done on Pat and Katie, and then they found out that they had been done. That's, and then what? Well, what are the results of that? Why would you say that they hadn't been done when they actually had been done?

• 1:27:21Derrick Levasseur?

  It's wrong. It could have been just a chain of custody thing as far as the verbal communication, where you have somebody talking to the family who's not up to date on the case, who's not as close to the case. They're relaying information, trying to be helpful, but they're giving misinformation. Or it could be what? Donnie and Tony are inferring, like they're hiding things. So there's a spectrum there, right? It could be just incompetence and the wrong people talking to Tony and Dolly, or it could be something more nefarious.

• 1:27:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, fingerprint analysis wasn't performed on the three shell casings that were recovered either. And like we've talked about previously, the other three shell casings were never found. And many people have wondered what happened to those missing cases. Some believe the answer lies with Pat's son, Patrick, a volunteer firefighter with Angier Fire and Rescue. According to crime scene logs, Patrick entered the scene twice after it had been secured by officers. Two deputies later testified that a non-officer like Patrick should have been escorted, but neither could remember who escorted him, and no escort was listed in the logs. Records show that Patrick signed in at 11:40 a.m., not long after Christian

• 1:28:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  had been rushed to the hospital, and again at 2:45 p.m. He later said he went in once to get medication and another time to secure a dog. But in a deposition, Pat was asked why Patrick would have been there, and he couldn't explain it. Pat admitted he didn't have any emergency medications and wasn't sure where the dog even was at that time. So it's unclear why Patrick was there twice. Some people online have suggested that it was he who may have retrieved the missing casings. But that's only a theory. Nothing has ever been proven in court. But on the note of that theory, why the hell was he allowed to be on the crime scene wandering around? I mean, as a firefighter, but not

• 1:29:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  only as a firefighter, as the son of the person who just shot someone six times? And if we absolutely cannot find those shell casings, and it was, they were thoroughly searched for, it does kind of make sense that somebody

• 1:29:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Somebody picked them up.

• 1:29:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Took them.

• 1:29:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, somebody picked them up. You would think they would all be found. I've had times where, you know, 10 or 15 shots are fired. I'm only able to find 12 or 13 of the bullets. If they were gonna pick them up and hide them, you think they would have picked up all of them? And got rid of all of them? Only picking up three is not gonna help you if you're trying to hide something.

• 1:29:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, unless those three shots were taken from a different place, like maybe...

• 1:29:56Derrick Levasseur?

  The shell casings wouldn't determine that.

• 1:29:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, they would if they were outside.

• 1:30:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Out- no, but he shot from inside the house. All the ballistics confirmed it.

• 1:30:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's what he said. He said he shot all from the inside.

• 1:30:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, you're saying if the shots were fired, but even the injuries to Christian would have been from inside?

• 1:30:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  You mean outside?

• 1:30:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, from- shot from inside the house to while he was outside.

• 1:30:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, but we- we don't know exactly what happened. Even Pat says he can't remember where he was standing when he fired these shots, but he made it seem as if he was standing all in the same place. So if those other shell casings-

• 1:30:27Derrick Levasseur?

  I'll entertain anything. I don't think he was shot from outside the house.

• 1:30:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  If those other shell casings were located at a place other than where Pat- where the other shell casings were found, right? That would- that would bring up the question of, hey, all of the shell casings were not found at the place where you said you shot all six shots. So you either moved forward maybe, or you got closer, things like that. That's what I'm saying.

• 1:30:50Derrick Levasseur?

  So with the long rifle, you're gonna have the rounds extract as you're shooting them, and they're gonna go onto the ground right over- over your right shoulder. And they're- they're gonna scatter, they're gonna roll, they're gonna move around, they're not- they're not little cubes that are gonna stop as soon as they hit the ground and not bounce a lot. These things could roll all over the place. I would say this, if two shell casings were found inside the house, and the other four shell casings were never recovered, I would have a lot more interest in the shell casings that weren't found, because that would suggest that maybe those other four shots, the ones to the back, were shot from a different location. But the fact that three were found inside, and three were not located, it's still something that's concerning to me, because I don't understand in a small area like that where how- how many places could these shell casings go, right?

• 1:31:35Derrick Levasseur?

  I- I can't find them in a street area. You know, there's grass, there's mulch, there's- there's sewer drains. There's a lot of places the rounds could go, but where did the shell casings go inside the small proximity? I don't know.

• 1:31:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, in this house, yeah.

• 1:31:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, but the fact that there was three of the six found, that says that at least three of those rounds were fired from the same location. So unless you believe he fired two, one in the back, went to a new location, fired three more in the back- It's harder to believe based on-

• 1:32:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or Patrick was in the scene twice, grabbed up more than than those three shell casings and maybe moved them around, but either way, I want to-

• 1:32:10Derrick Levasseur?

  We do have to acknowledge, we have nothing to substantiate this. We're just speculating.

• 1:32:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  We, I want to initiate the hive mind here because you know Derek and I have certain ways of viewing this, but you know, it's been a long day for both of us. We're tired mentally. We just, the time difference is still messing with us. So I want to hear from you guys as far as the theory of what happened to those three shell casings and what could those three shell casings be missing signify to you? Let us know. And then Patrick saying he went in to get emergency medication and his father's like, I don't have any emergency medication. I don't know what he means. It's just, it's weird. So after learning all of this, Christian's parents became more convinced than ever that their son had been murdered, but there was still many unanswered questions and they didn't have the full picture. Determined to seek the truth, they filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Pat Chisenhall. And through that

• 1:32:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  process, they would uncover new information and find at least some measure of accountability. But that story will have to wait for part four, which is the final part of this series.

• 1:33:09Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, so obviously the threshold is a lot lower for a civil case. Was there preponderance of evidence that would suggest Pat was involved or responsible for Christian's death? I think that's an easier threshold to meet. I am interested to see how that one plays out and to see if this case is reopened or not. I have not looked up anything. But my overall takeaway after these three parts, there's a few things. A lot of emotions, a lot of thoughts going through my head. First one being, this is a classic case of if law enforcement did their job, if they dotted their i's and they crossed their t's and they filled those voids that we're being forced to fill right now, we might not have

• 1:33:51Derrick Levasseur?

  as many questions. We may not be covering this case. Christian's family may not be wanting more in this case.

• 1:33:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Too many cases like that, by the way.

• 1:33:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that's, that's why we cover them because if everyone did their job, we wouldn't need to follow up on them and ask for more accountability and kind of dissect them all because the police would just have those answers for us. So when you ask a simple question like, where are those other three shell casings?

• 1:34:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or where was Christian's body when he was shot?

• 1:34:13Derrick Levasseur?

  They would be able to say- Yeah, they would be able to say, here's the reason why we didn't find them. Here's what we think could have happened, right? This is the area we were in. Trajectory rods. Instead of going off Pat's understanding of what happened that day, we would have a ballistics report done by an independent party who would say, here's the diagram of Christian's body. Here's the way we believe the rounds entered his body. They align with the positioning of where Pat was standing and they would explain why none of the glass was broken. So where am I right now as we're going into part four? For me, not trying to convince any of you. I feel that Christian was definitely going through some things, definitely struggled with anger issues at minimum. I would only imagine that going through what he went through over in Iraq

• 1:34:58Derrick Levasseur?

  only exacerbated those things, made him a little worse, probably put him in a bad mental place, which again, completely understandable. So you have someone who's struggling with certain things. And then you have Katie not helping the situation by not allowing him to see his daughter, which is only going to enrage him and Katie knows that and Pat knows that. So you have a predicament where Christian is trying to see his daughter. And in his mind, he's doing the right thing because he's a father. He has the right to see his child. He's going to do whatever he can do to see her. And he does do that, but he goes about it the wrong way, in my opinion. If you know these people are against you, you don't want to go over there alone.

• 1:35:43Derrick Levasseur?

  You want to bring your dad, you want to bring your mother, you want to bring your sister, you want to bring a friend, you want to have an independent party to support whatever happens while you're there, even if it's just verbal comments that are made by both parties. You want to have someone who can support whatever you're going to tell law enforcement if it gets to that point. When Pat and Katie went inside the house, if this is what happened, that's when Christian should have turned around, called the police or called Tony and said, hey, I'm coming home. We're going to the police station. We're filing a report. I'm done with this. If he did, in fact, try to push in the window, which as I'm sitting here right now, I believe he did, based on his history of getting angry and acting out. I don't think it's a stretch to think that he would have done something like this.

• 1:36:28Derrick Levasseur?

  At that point, that was a mistake and I can see how Pat would justify this former soldier who has anger issues, who he's dealt with on numerous occasions, feeling like his life was in danger and firing two rounds to prevent him from coming inside and hurting him or hurting his daughter. However, this is where it goes south because he's got tunnel vision. I'm talking about Pat. Christian clearly realizes that he's been shot.

• 1:36:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Attempts to escape to get out of there to prevent further injury. And at that point, for reasons unknown to us, Pat continues to fire in succession, four additional times, not just once, not just twice, four times. And those were the fatal rounds. And that right there is the entire case. Do you believe that those rounds were excessive? And if you do, then this is not a justifiable self-defense castle doctrine case.

• 1:37:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I do believe those four shots were excessive personally.

• 1:37:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that's and that's the question for everybody listening and watching right now because we've talked about a lot. And there is a lot of noise to this case. How far Christian was in the window? Was he, did he kick the door? Yes, it's all important. But at the end of the day, if you want to dilute this down to one question, do you think those four rounds were excessive? And if you do, if you answer yes, then this is a homicide. This is a murder. It's not a self-defense claim. It's that simple. There's a lot of questions we're not going to be able to answer, ever. We know that Christian was shot six times. Do you believe that those six rounds were in succession and Pat was unaware that Christian had turned around? Or do you think that Pat knew at that point Christian was retreating

• 1:38:11Derrick Levasseur?

  and decided to keep firing because in that moment, he was angry, he only saw one thing, and he wanted to make sure that Christian never came back again? If you answer yes to that question, then you have your answer for this case.

• 1:38:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, well, let's see what happens next week.

• 1:38:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow, that's it. No follow up, no rebuttal, nothing else.

• 1:38:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I.

• 1:38:32Derrick Levasseur?

  You agree with what I said essentially. I mean, that's really what it comes down to, right? Is there's four rounds.

• 1:38:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think those four shots were excessive. I think I personally, like I said, I would have a very difficult time shooting anybody one time, much less six times. So.

• 1:38:47Derrick Levasseur?

  You would do it if you had to.

• 1:38:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  I would do it if I had to.

• 1:38:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Most of our listeners and viewers would if they had to.

• 1:38:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  But I don't know if I would just keep shooting and not know. I mean, especially if, if Pat and Christian had always had a good relationship, as he claims, right? At some point, you're like, hey, this, this kid is like my son-in-law. He's the father of my granddaughter. Do I want to be the person that killed her father? Am I just trying to protect my daughter right now? But do I want to have to answer to my granddaughter for the rest of my life? Why I took her father's life? I don't know. It's just, it's a hard one.

• 1:39:20Derrick Levasseur?

  I've talked about my shooting a couple of times during this series because it's applicable. I was within, without a doubt, in fear of my life. I had a man running at me with a knife, who was only four feet away from me when I shot him. I was petrified. I only shot him four times. The fact that Pat shot a man six times when he wasn't even technically inside the house at that point, I might surprise some of you right now, but I agree with Stephanie. I do think those four rounds were excessive. So yes, I still believe that initially Pat was justified in firing those first two rounds to protect him and his daughter, but it changed. It changed when he continued to fire. So that's why we do what we do.

• 1:40:02Derrick Levasseur?

  That's why we cover these cases, dissecting them, breaking them down, not knowing how quickly those rounds were fired, if there was any opportunity to reassess the situation, which as officers were trained differently, but after you fire a round, they actually teach you to shoot and scan right to left. Assess if there's still a threat. If there is, fire again.

• 1:40:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. You have the gun in your hand. It's not like.

• 1:40:24Derrick Levasseur?

  You have to, you have to determine if your life is still in danger.

• 1:40:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  You have the power. You, yeah, you have the upper hand in that situation. You're the one holding the gun. So at that point, even if you're like, oh, this guy, he got shot twice. He's still coming through. You're behind the couch. He's at the window. You can still fire.

• 1:40:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I would even argue. Even though I do believe that he by the law, by the castle doctrine, he would be justified to shoot those first two rounds, you could also make the argument that he could have fired a round into the, into the wall around him.

• 1:40:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, just to be like, hey, I got a gun. So don't, don't come any closer.

• 1:40:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Now, he's not required to do that based on the castle doctrine, but I'm just putting it out there. You fire those first two rounds, you've clearly hit him. Christian clearly acknowledges that he's been hit. It's why he turns away and you continue to fire and you have to assume, even if it was only a second or two, that there was a lapse there. Because in order for Christian to turn around, he's not a superhuman, you know, mutant where he's going to spin around instantaneously.

• 1:41:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right, exactly.

• 1:41:25Derrick Levasseur?

  There's going to be a second or two delay, which would allow Pat to reassess the situation and say, oh, I got him. He's turning around. We're good. He didn't. Not only did he fire another shot, he fired four more shots.

• 1:41:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 1:41:38Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a problem. So yeah, that's where I stand on this. I'm interested to see how the civil case goes. If I have to guess, I would say that Pat's going to be found liable.

• 1:41:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  I guess we'll find out.

• 1:41:47Derrick Levasseur?

  We will find out. Any other words from you?

• 1:41:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nope. Thank you guys so much for being here. I cannot wait to hear what you think about all we've talked about today. Let us know in the comments if you're watching on YouTube and if you're listening on audio and you have something, you know, that you think would really add to the conversation, go on over to YouTube, subscribe if you haven't already and tell us.

• 1:42:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Nailed it. Guys, stay safe out there. We'll see you next week.

• 1:42:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.