Pod Insights Crime Junkie SCANDAL: Police Explorer Programs About this episode Law enforcement Explorer programs were created to mentor teens interested in policing. But decades of weak oversight created an environment where officers could manipulate that trust. Some exploited their roles, using their authority to groom, abuse, and silence the very teens they were entrusted to guide.
Transcript 14,151 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Ashley Flowers? Do me a favor. Put all five fingers up. Now, put one down if you have workout saved on Instagram that you haven't gone back to. Put one down if you were gonna go to a workout class this week, but there's just none that the times worked out for. Put one down if you don't like working out at home because you don't know what to do and you need someone to push you. Put two fingers down if you want to stop this game. Babe, we are the same. I don't have a lot of time and honestly, I'm not even someone who likes working out. But Ladder actually changed that. I literally had to waddle into the studio to record this because my butt is so sore. Ladder is quick. I'm not wasting time wandering around or doing reps of something that won't matter. I'm in, I'm out. I have a coach along the way who can help me make 30 minutes with weights feel better than two hours of whatever I was doing before. And it's $1 a day.
0:45 Ashley Flowers? So if price was ever stopping you before, you're officially out of excuses. Remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout. No thinking, everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head to ladder.fit/crimejunkie and take a quick quiz to find your perfect Ladder plan. Use my link and get a free seven-day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you join. Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today isn't just one story, but it started that way for me with Sandra Birchmore, which we covered in our last episode.
1:25 Ashley Flowers? I was shocked and outraged how she was taken advantage of in the police explorer program. Because like, my God, surely parents have to believe that sending their kids to learn from the police has to be the safest place for them. What a betrayal. But then I began to wonder, was that the exception? Or was this just one example of a system with deep-rooted problems that lets abuse thrive? And just as I was asking myself this question, literally within like two weeks of Sandra's story breaking, I saw this local news article. It said, "IMPD Officer Tied to Teen Suicide Ordered to Write Weekly Journal in Rare Sentence."
2:06 Ashley Flowers? A teen who was part of the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department's Explorer Program. And as I dug into her story, I realized that we were just scratching the surface of a much, much bigger problem. Because the more I looked, the more I found. And me and our reporter Nina have spent months uncovering a systemic issue within the program that is required listening for everyone. Crime junkie or not, this is an episode that must be shared. Because you will not believe what has been happening right under our noses for decades.
3:16 Ashley Flowers? For Mike Gatliff, time stopped on Monday, November 2nd, 2015, right around 4:41 PM. And now, his life is split into before and after. Before, he was living out the most average day. Went to work at the Indianapolis Police Pawn Unit, came home to the house that he shared with his wife Janice, their 18-year-old daughter Heidi, and their 21-year-old son. He'd just gotten out of his car and was bringing up some leaf bags from the yard when this familiar face came up to him. 29-year-old IMPD Officer Francisco Almost, known to him and most as Paco. Now, even though Mike's a civilian employee for IMPD, the only reason he really knew Francisco was because of Heidi.
3:59 Ashley Flowers? She had been a part of the department's Explorer Program for nearly two years, and he knew that she'd done some ride-alongs with Francisco over the past few months. And Francisco had never just shown up at their house before, unannounced and not in uniform. But he says that he's there that day to talk to Heidi about a case.
4:16 Speaker 01 She's an explorer. What kind of case would you need to talk to like explorer part? They're not working cases. They're not officers.
4:24 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, you're right. They're not. But Mike isn't even concerned. Along with working for IMPD, he's also a fire department chaplain. So like their whole family trusts first responders. And IMPD was Heidi's life, basically. I mean, everything she's done has been working up to getting on the force. Maybe she's getting like a little inside peek like any crime junkie would love.
4:45 Speaker 01 Oh, for sure.
4:46 Ashley Flowers? It would be great, whatever. So he tells Francisco that, you know, he just got home, but Heidi's car is in the driveway. So she's got to be inside. So like, come on in. He invites Francisco in through the garage, but Francisco stays at the entrance while Mike goes inside to get Heidi. Now, inside, her bedroom door is closed. Mike knocks. And then he walks in when she doesn't answer. And this is the moment that time stops. Because once he opened that door, he would always be living in the after. After he found Heidi laying in bed where he kissed her goodbye that morning. Before, she was warm and alive. His beautiful daughter with so much potential.
5:27 Ashley Flowers? And after, she is still and pale with a gun near her head and her hand close to it. Now, Mike rushes to Heidi and calls out for Francisco, realizing that he hadn't followed him in. And Francisco comes running. But even though he's the trained officer, it's Mike who slips into first responder mode. He's the one that calls 911 at 4:41 PM. And he's the one who gives dispatchers what they need while Francisco is just like falling apart. Medics and IMPD officers arrive within minutes and Heidi is pronounced dead there at the scene. And the rest of the night is just a blur of chaos. Mike calls Janice at work, bringing her into the after.
6:10 Ashley Flowers? And she remembers the moment that she collapsed and had to be driven home. There, friends and family gather while police seal off the house. Officers line the street in a show of respect for Heidi as one of their own. And everyone is left reeling, trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. I mean, the day before, everything seemed pretty normal. The family went to church, like always. Later, Heidi skipped baking cookies with her mom. She said she had plans with a friend. And then when she came home, she seemed a little upset, but nothing major. She went back out, came home again sometime later. Mike didn't see her get back, which was like a little odd.
6:49 Speaker 01 But there was nothing that like screamed crisis.
6:52 Ashley Flowers? Not even close. Mike is trained to recognize the warning signs of suicide, and he hadn't noticed any. Plus, like Heidi is known for her upbeat personality. She is bright and bubbly and driven. She loved helping people. I mean, that's what drew her to law enforcement. In middle school, she actually dreamed of the FBI. But over time, she set her sights on IMPD, the department that she got to know through the Explorers. Mike was actually the one who'd first heard about the program and thought it would be a good fit for her. And he was right. Heidi had ADHD. She struggled with a traditional classroom. But exploring let her learn by doing. She worked security at the Indianapolis 500. She helped on mall patrols. I mean, her confidence was growing with every single shift.
7:35 Ashley Flowers? And her favorite part were the ride-alongs. Sitting beside an officer, following calls, watching arrests unfold. It felt like the real thing, and it really cemented her desire to become a cop. And just days before her death, she had been promoted to post commander and captain, something that she was thrilled about. So for Heidi's parents and her brother, like, this isn't just grief, it is whiplash. But even in that grief and their darkest moments, her family has never disputed that Heidi's gunshot wound was self-inflicted. I mean, she even left a note on Mike's computer, which they found later. But there still are so many questions about what led up to her death and why.
8:17 Speaker 01 And the note didn't give any explanation.
8:19 Ashley Flowers? Not one that they fully understood, or not one that, like, filled in all the gaps of how things ended up the way they did. Like, in the note, she apologized to her parents. She said it wasn't their fault, but that she'd made some mistakes. She felt like she was hurting people's careers. It was vague. It was a little confusing for them. And there was nothing in recent memory that they could call back to that made this make sense. And listen, credit where credit is due for IMPD, because they are gonna get their fair share of heat in this episode, too. They did the thing that you're supposed to do. Every death should be treated as suspicious until you definitely rule that it's not. And even though everyone was in agreement that this was a suicide, there was still a mystery surrounding it.
9:02 Ashley Flowers? And it quickly becomes obvious that what led up to it might involve one of their own. Now, Brett, I know you have a teenager.
9:10 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
9:10 Ashley Flowers? What is the one thing that can give you insight into their life? The portal into their internal world.
9:16 Speaker 01 Their phone.
9:17 Ashley Flowers? Correct. Hidden in Heidi's calls and texts might be all the answers that her family is looking for. And that phone, still playing music, was near her head when her dad found her. So police collected it and asked her parents for the passcode. But Mike and Janice are kind of taken back, like, passcode? Heidi's not supposed to have a passcode. They have a house rule against it. But detectives tell them the phone's locked. And listen, it's not like Heidi couldn't have broken that rule if there were things that she didn't want her parents to see or know after she was gone. So they, like, toss out some guesses. Police try them, but nothing works. And eventually, the phone disables completely. And there's just something that feels wrong about this.
10:01 Ashley Flowers? You see, after Mike found his daughter, Francisco had asked Mike to use Heidi's phone so that he could call the advisor who ran her Explorer post.
10:12 Speaker 01 Call them for what? And also, use your own phone?
10:16 Ashley Flowers? Mike didn't know why he was asking. I mean, he had, in that moment, zero brain space to even consider the weirdness of the request. Yeah, he just found his daughter. But Francisco was able to place that call, presumably without having a passcode to open the phone, which means...
10:32 Speaker 01 Francisco locked the phone.
10:34 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, and there is only one reason that you would need to do that. And that is if you don't want anyone to see what's on it.
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13:01 Ashley Flowers? Everything around Francisco is starting to stink. He came to talk to Heidi about a case, which makes no sense now that the blinders are off. He froze and freaked out in a moment of crisis and had her dad be the one to call 911. And then he used her phone to make a call after they found her, and now no one can get into the phone. Like, come on. So for all those reasons, detectives have a conversation with Francisco pretty quickly, like, the next day, Tuesday, November 3rd. And he tells them that he met Heidi when she was on a ride-along with an ambulance crew. That was back in January, just after her 18th birthday. And Janice told us it was actually, maybe even earlier, at a charity boxing event when Heidi was still 17.
13:46 Ashley Flowers? But either way, they started talking, and Francisco encouraged her to join him on patrol. He worked a high-crime area known as the Swamp, where something was always happening, and Heidi jumped at the chance.
13:57 Speaker 01 So this was after she joined the Explorers?
13:59 Ashley Flowers? Right. She'd actually already been in the program for over a year by that point. And Francisco had no official explorer role, but it, like, kept them in each other's orbit, basically. So he says they grew close about 15 ride-alongs, working out together a couple times a week, and talking almost daily through texts and Snapchat.
14:19 Speaker 01 That doesn't sound normal, right?
14:22 Ashley Flowers? It shouldn't be.
14:23 Speaker 01 Okay.
14:23 Ashley Flowers? I mean, like many Explorer posts across the country, IMPD's program operates under Learning for Life, which is an affiliate of Scouting America.
14:31 Speaker 01 Okay.
14:31 Ashley Flowers? And that organization forbids close, social relationships between leaders and participants, no matter their age. But Francisco doesn't work with the Post, so that rule technically wouldn't apply to him. And at the time, IMPD didn't have a policy barring officers from getting involved with Explorers. Like, that was only added this year, 2025. Now, technically, since Heidi was 18, if something was going on between them, it wouldn't have been illegal.
15:02 Speaker 01 But, come on.
15:04 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, it's a different story ethically. He is a uniformed officer in a position of authority, hanging out with a teenager who clearly looked up to him. So even if you take Francisco at his word, which is that nothing sexual happened, it still feels wrong to me. But anyways, Francisco tells police that Heidi seemed fine Sunday night. They'd even made plans to work out that week. But by Monday afternoon, something had changed. He said that she called him out of the blue at around 1 o'clock, told him she couldn't talk to him anymore, but that she loved him and it wasn't his fault. She thanked him for everything and then hung up, which rattled him. And he tried calling back and then finally drove to her house. And ultimately, he admits that he lied to Mike.
15:49 Ashley Flowers? He didn't want to alarm him if this turned out to be nothing, so he made up the whole thing about having to talk to her about a case.
15:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, so then he hangs back and lets her dad find her.
15:58 Ashley Flowers? Zero spine.
15:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:00 Ashley Flowers? And lots of ick feelings about this for me. But still, nothing illegal that we know of. Where he crossed a hard line in the sand was even touching her phone. I mean, this dude's been a cop for 10 years. He knows not to touch evidence in an active death investigation. And if he really needed to contact the Explorer advisor, he could have asked responding officers to reach out.
16:24 Speaker 01 Or use his own phone.
16:26 Ashley Flowers? Or, like you said before, use his own phone. Yeah. Like, it does not sit right. So this is when the case is bumped to IMPD's Special Investigations Unit. And while they get their ducks in a row, a digital forensic expert is trying to get into Heidi's phone. And Mike and Janice are just trying to survive each day. And they are left in kind of an unclear position. Like, they know that there is an ongoing investigation, something involving Francisco and Heidi's phone, but they're not getting any real details and they don't fully understand why this is happening for a clear-cut suicide. So one of the people that they lean on during this time is 32-year-old Daniel Bowman.
17:10 Ashley Flowers? He was Heidi's explorer advisor, her mentor, the cop running the meetings and taking her ambitions seriously. And now that Heidi's gone, he really steps up for the Gatliff's personally. The explorers help with funeral arrangements. Daniel carries Heidi's urn and gives a speech. And he doesn't just forget about the family once those big moments are over. He keeps checking in. He keeps sharing stories about Heidi. And for Janice especially, he becomes a lifeline. Because Mike and their son grieve in a different way. Like, they're very private, they're very quiet, but Janice needs to talk about her daughter, and Daniel is always available to listen. By the end of 2015, I mean, he is practically family.
17:53 Ashley Flowers? He seems like a steady source of support, someone who cared about Heidi's future and shares their pain and their questions. But he also said that he feels guilty because of how everything went down. According to Daniel, sometime the morning of November 2nd, or like in the early afternoon, Heidi sent him a Snapchat, saying that he was a great guy and she loved him, which wasn't like her. And then she sent another, and he replied, asking what was going on, but she never answered. Court records show that he sent her 16 messages over the next few hours and none of them were even read. And then later that day, his phone rang and it was Heidi's number calling, but the voice on the line was a man yelling that she was dead.
18:36 Ashley Flowers? Now, Daniel says he didn't even recognize the voice as Francisco's and he didn't even like know him super well. Like Daniel might've seen him around, but they'd never spoken. He didn't really even know his name. He said that he didn't even connect the voice to him until they met at the Gatliff's that evening.
18:51 Speaker 01 So if they didn't even know each other, then why did Francisco even reach out to him?
18:55 Ashley Flowers? Daniel says he doesn't know, but Francisco was obviously aware of him. Because that night, he pulled Daniel aside and asked if they could talk privately in Daniel's car, even asked him to turn off his police radio. Daniel says Francisco told him that Heidi really cared about him, like him being Daniel, and then immediately asked, had she ever talked about Francisco or said anything about their relationship? And Daniel's like, no, like I don't remember her mentioning anything. Now eventually Francisco got out of the car. Daniel says that he watched him go into the Gatliff's house, which struck him as odd because it was still an active crime scene. And then when he came out, he stood in the driveway and in full view of officers and
19:38 Ashley Flowers? mourners, urinated in the yard.
19:41 Speaker 01 I'm sorry, what?
19:42 Ashley Flowers? I know. It's like, it's, it's just weird behavior.
19:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:47 Ashley Flowers? Now, Daniel says that he feels awful because he didn't realize how much Heidi was struggling. And he also tells Janice that he thinks Heidi and Francisco were involved in some way. Now, when we recently spoke to Daniel, he said that he didn't realize what was happening at the time, that all the ride-alongs and contact Heidi had with Francisco went beyond what he had believed he approved. Like he'd been running the post for a couple of years and says that he only ever authorized a handful of ride-alongs, including one for Heidi. And the way that he tells it, they were tightly controlled. For 18 and up explorers only, paired with another student and assigned to a short list of approved officers. But there was an earlier incident that stuck out.
20:30 Ashley Flowers? Daniel says that sometime around the spring of 2015, another explorer mentioned that Heidi went on a ride along that he hadn't approved, out of uniform and outside of the normal process. As post-adviser, Daniel should have filed a report, but he says that it didn't seem like a concern or complaint, more like a misunderstanding. So instead of documenting it, he talked to his supervisors, gave the group a refresher on the policy, and pulled the 18-and-overs aside to remind them. He wanted all ride-alongs to have his approval, and anyone using a police radio had to be logged with dispatch so that the department could know who was where. But he also told us that it felt complicated to him, like Heidi was technically an adult,
21:15 Ashley Flowers? and he didn't think that he could dictate what she did on her own. So, maybe out of all this guilt he's feeling, or his own grief, whatever, he says that he's trying to be there for her family and for the explorers. And on November 3rd, again, this is the day after Heidi's death, Daniel brought a counselor in for an emergency explorers meeting. Now, he told us the department didn't help with this, like, there wasn't protocol for handling something traumatic like this. But there was a surprise guest that showed up, Francisco. And it didn't seem like he was there for the counseling. Daniel says that he was, like, asking around, trying to find out more about what had happened. And while the explorers were gathered with Daniel, there was this other group that was meeting
22:00 Ashley Flowers? at the home of one of Heidi's close friends named Corbin Myers. He invited their circle over so that they could try to process what happened. And while they were all together, one of the girls got an Instagram message from Francisco, who wanted her to call him. And that's when Corbin's radar started, like, going off. He knew that there had been some shady stuff happening over the past few months. So Corbin, being in the beautiful one-party state of Indiana, decided to record their conversation.
22:33 Ashley Flowers? Let's face it, if student loans are slowing down your financial goals, it might be time for a smarter strategy. That's where today's sponsor SoFi comes in. SoFi is helping you tackle student debt by refinancing your loans with flexible monthly payments that fit your budget. We're talking about the potential to lower your interest rate, reduce your monthly payment, or even pay off your loan sooner, depending on the term you choose. You can also consolidate your student loans into one simple monthly payment, so you could save more each month and work towards achieving your long-term financial ambitions. SoFi offers competitive fixed and variable rates and no origination fees, prepayment fees, or late fees required. It takes just two minutes to check your rate with SoFi, and they have already helped over 500,000 members refinance more than $50 billion in student loans.
23:16 Ashley Flowers? Visit sofi.com/crimejunkie to see how much you can save. That's sofi.com/crimejunkie and start making smarter money moves with SoFi. SoFi's student loans are originated by SoFi Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Additional terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891.
23:36 Speaker 01 Everyone has those go-to wardrobe staples that get reached for constantly. The sweater that works with everything, the perfect-fitting jeans, or the bag carried everywhere. Quince specializes in those exact permanent fixtures. Quince creates elevated essentials using luxury materials like organic cotton, washable silk, and 100% Mongolian cashmere, with cashmere sweaters starting at just $50. Beyond knitwear, the collection includes premium stretch denim, leather bags, footwear, and 14-karat gold jewelry designed to pull any look together. By partnering directly with ethical factories and removing middleman markups, Quince offers high-end quality at 50% to 80% less than comparable brands. That same approach extends beyond clothing into home goods, including hotel-quality bedding, bath, kitchen essentials, and thoughtfully-designed furniture. Quince has been my go-to for wardrobe staples for years now,
24:21 Speaker 01 but I recently started upgrading my bedding, towels, and even some kitchen essentials from Quince. And as usual, the quality of the items are impeccable, the aesthetic is unmatched, and the price is unbelievable. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com/crimejunkie. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/crimejunkie.
24:50 Ashley Flowers? On the call, Francisco repeated much of what he told detectives. But he also talked about his last call with Heidi. He said that she told him her life was a mess, and that she'd been hurting people and lying to them. And while he downplayed their relationship to police with her friends, he leaned into it, fishing, trying to find out what they knew. Corbin actually gave those recordings to police. And he also shared them with us.
25:20 Speaker 02 I don't know how much of everything you knew about her. Did you know everything?
25:26 Speaker 03 For the most part, yeah.
25:29 Speaker 02 Okay, well, what I didn't know about three weeks ago, since we've been hanging out and stuff, she told, we never saw, but she never said anything about liking me. She never said anything about that. We were just hanging out. She told me that she was dating two other guys besides me, like just hanging out with two other guys.
25:52 Speaker 04 What was your reaction to that?
25:56 Speaker 02 Um, I was pretty upset in the beginning. I told her that we should not probably see each other. And she got really upset.
26:07 Speaker 04 Yeah.
26:08 Speaker 02 And then she told me that she spoke to another guy, which, do you know their two names? I don't know if I should, do you know them?
26:16 Speaker 03 We know who they are, yeah.
26:18 Ashley Flowers? Francisco seemed especially fixated on one of those men.
26:23 Speaker 02 She told me about him. And she said that, that she felt she was hurting him. And I'm not really sure what the relationship was prior to this, but she said she was hurting him.
26:39 Ashley Flowers? He said he'd already compared notes with this other guy.
26:43 Speaker 02 According to what he told me is that she was telling him that they, she loves him. But unfortunately, she never said those things to me except for the day that she called me. I wish you guys could tell me more. I, that's all I was hoping, that maybe you guys had some answers to help me.
27:00 Speaker 01 Hang on, so Francisco admitted there was something going on between them?
27:05 Ashley Flowers? Well, after they hung up, he called back.
27:09 Speaker 02 Like, what did she say about me? Like, she considered what we had a relationship? I heard you guys say that, but I want to know why she thought that. It wasn't something like a romantically relationship. We never... It wasn't like that. We just hung out.
27:27 Ashley Flowers? As Francisco started backtracking, Heidi's friends followed his lead.
27:32 Speaker 02 Did I ever say that to you guys? That I was more than just your friend?
27:36 Speaker 03 Um, not as far as we know, no.
27:38 Speaker 02 Because I wanted to know if she ever said that to you? Because if she ever thought that we were more than just that? And it's not that I would be mad or anything, but she just never, ever said anything to me like that. Like, hey, she never even told me she liked me. It was nothing like that. So, you know, I wish, kind of, she told you guys what she felt about me, but I guess not.
28:02 Speaker 03 Okay.
28:04 Speaker 02 She didn't ever say anything about me like that to you guys?
28:08 Speaker 03 Not that we can... Not that we are aware of. No.
28:14 Speaker 02 It's not a... It's not a big deal, but the reason I ask is because I'm not really sure why she called me. I spoke to the other guy that she said she romantically involved with. I actually spoke to him yesterday and kind of talked. And I don't really know what she was telling him and what she was telling me, but I just wanted to make sure that I wanted to see if that's what she meant. When you said relationship, if she thought that I was more than just a friend, like someone she hangs out with.
28:50 Ashley Flowers? Now, obviously, Corbin goes to Heidi's parents with these calls.
28:55 Speaker 01 And by the way, just a side note, I love these kids. Corbin and his friends sounded better on those calls than some seasoned investigators that I've heard.
29:05 Ashley Flowers? I know. I will send you the whole call because honestly, like, these guys are chef's kiss. Like, they sound like crime junkies who have been taking notes since birth, and they do not come to play. So anyways, Heidi's parents, like, get these recorded calls. They already have Daniel in their ear talking about Francisco, but they didn't need him to turn them against the guy. Between the way he unraveled the day that Heidi died, his whole demeanor, and now Corbin telling them about the calls, like they are sure something is up.
29:33 Speaker 01 So during this time, is Francisco in contact with Mike and Janice?
29:37 Ashley Flowers? Tries to be at first, but he's not admitting to any inappropriate relationship with Heidi. And actually, while you have Daniel badmouthing Francisco, Francisco is badmouthing Daniel, telling Janice that the Explorer program should have been shut down, that under Daniel's leadership, the teens were barely supervised. And someone must have agreed with Francisco on that point at least, because Daniel says that within a couple of weeks of Heidi's death, he was moved to a new role. Officially, on paper, it's a promotion, but to him, it felt like a punishment, even though he was told he could stay involved with the Explorers if he wanted to. But regardless of the Explorers, he still stays close with Heidi's family, even staying with them for a little bit while he and his wife are going through a divorce.
30:20 Ashley Flowers? He vacations with them that spring. So imagine the shock and the betrayal that they feel when they learn who the other guy in Heidi's life really was. He's another IMPD officer. And not just any officer. It was the man who ran the Explorer program, the man who lived with them and vacationed with them, Daniel Bullman. In January 2016, Daniel's wife filed for divorce. That's when he was staying with Heidi's family. But this was no amicable divorce. In May, he ends up getting arrested on more than a dozen charges tied to domestic abuse against his soon-to-be ex and family,
31:03 Ashley Flowers? some stemming from incidents that happened years earlier. She tells police that he had been violent and controlling, forcing her to bark like a dog, punching her, shoving her into walls, threatening her with his service weapon, even pointing it at their sleeping daughter. And she says it got worse after Heidi died, that Daniel admitted that they had been involved, and he just spiraled. She left because she feared what he would do next. So in the time between Heidi's death in November and then his arrest in May, dude had been unraveling. He moved to that different position, which again, he saw as punishment. Then his wife left him and word was starting to spread around the station that he had a
31:47 Ashley Flowers? relationship with Heidi too. Now, according to Daniel, those were just rumors he says started by Francisco and a couple of other officers. He told Nina that they were the ones who contacted his then-wife and planted this idea in her head. He says that he never implied that he and Heidi were involved to his ex or to anyone else. But based on what we know Heidi told friends, they believed that she and Daniel were involved, which again, Daniel denies. He told us he cared about Heidi as a friend and mentor, but insists that nothing between them was romantic or sexual.
32:23 Speaker 01 Okay, but why is a grown man friends with a teenage girl in his program? I mean, she would have been like 16 when they met?
32:31 Ashley Flowers? Right, which in Indiana, 16 is the age of consent.
32:35 Speaker 01 But to be clear-
32:36 Ashley Flowers? But like, who cares?
32:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, like still a minor, he's still in a place of authority, like, I'm sorry.
32:40 Ashley Flowers? And he's saying nothing happened. So like, I agree, like he should not be friends with a 16-year-old, especially when, like you're saying, he's in a position of power. But Daniel says that he felt close to all of the older explorers and he swears that he and Heidi were only alone twice, briefly, like as they left meetings.
32:55 Speaker 01 So why is Heidi telling her friends things to make them believe that he and Heidi are dating?
33:01 Ashley Flowers? Daniel told us that he's not sure what gave her that impression. Maybe she misread his goofing around, something he says he did with everyone.
33:09 Speaker 01 But if you're goofing around as a supervisory officer gives a minor in your care the impression that she has a relationship with you?
33:19 Ashley Flowers? That's like the bigger problem, right?
33:20 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah, you're the problem.
33:22 Ashley Flowers? Preach.
33:22 Speaker 01 And I guarantee that the goofing around that's happening is highly inappropriate.
33:28 Ashley Flowers? Either way, Daniel basically blames Francisco and the other cops for all of this. He says he documented what was happening and when he learned that one of the initial detectives working Heidi's case might have ties to Francisco, he like sends this memo up the chain. He saw himself as the good guy. And we know that because of text messages that he sent his wife. Texts that would later become part of the probable cause affidavit for his domestic violence arrest. On April 6, 2016, he texted her, quote, "I'll be a hero, a whistleblower, fighting police corruption. And if not, I have nothing to lose. You've taken everything I've ever worked for. He took my only friend."
34:11 Ashley Flowers? And then on May 9, 2016, he says, quote, "Right now, I'm only interested in going to," there's a, he says another cop's name that I'm not going to say, "Ann Olmos and putting a bullet in their heads. I'm furious. This department failed. This city needs more dead cops." End quote. Those messages are a big reason that his wife contacted police, like his communications were becoming more threatening. And those, I got straight from a legal document, but Daniel told us that he didn't write them.
34:44 Speaker 01 Of course, then, please, Daniel. Who did?
34:48 Ashley Flowers? He blames his now ex or like someone close to her says that she had access to his IMAC and like she could have sent them? That's his story?
34:57 Speaker 01 Okay.
34:58 Ashley Flowers? Anyway, after Daniel's arrest, he posts bond and goes home on electric monitoring to await trial for the domestic violence charges. And still, at this point, nothing had happened with Heidi's case or with Francisco or the Explorers program because they still have not been able to get into Heidi's phone. It isn't until fall 2017, when new technology becomes available, that they can finally crack it. And what they find makes it clear why Francisco wouldn't want them to see their communications. It shows just how manipulative he had been and how much they had been in contact. All told, they exchanged over 300 calls in the month and a half,
35:43 Ashley Flowers? just the month and a half before her death, and 177 texts in the final three days. Now, I haven't seen most of them. This is a closed case with IMPD, but they're still withholding most of the records, including a lot of the texts. And listen, we've worked with a lot of agencies over the years. IMPD has consistently been one of the hardest. Hardest to get records from. And when I say hardest, I do mean impossible, which I hate to say about the agency that's in my own backyard. But I have way better relationships with other agencies. Like, why the F doesn't need to be so hard here? Like, are we hiding something?
36:20 Speaker 01 Right, like, my mind goes to like, why not?
36:23 Ashley Flowers? But of the messages I can see, including some from a probable cause affidavit, Francisco's tone goes from like, flirty to furious. He berates her for lying and gaslights her about this other officer and demands to know where they stand. They end up talking three times on the day that she died. And after the last call, he flooded her with messages, texting things like, "You can't do this to me. You can't. I'm headed to your house right now. And you're gonna make me look so stupid in front of your family. You make me feel like this is really all my fault." And the one thing that's more interesting than the texts is the data showing that all of those messages between Francisco and Heidi were deleted
37:08 Ashley Flowers? around the time that he used her phone to call Daniel. And after the messages were wiped, that is when the phone was locked. So that November, more than two years after Heidi's death, Francisco is arrested for felony obstruction of justice and misdemeanor computer trespass. Both him and Daniel are off the force, suspended without pay, facing termination as their cases begin to crawl through the court system.
37:36 Speaker 01 So I'm kind of getting lost on like, what the truth is or was? Like, was Heidi involved with Daniel or Francisco or both?
37:46 Ashley Flowers? So based on everything that we've learned from court records, from everyone we spoke to who had direct knowledge of the situation, it appears that Heidi was involved with both men. And that kind of dynamic, like one teen, multiple officers, is sadly not unusual. I mean, it really underscores how predatory some of the adults in these programs can be.
38:08 Speaker 01 And did police find any texts between Heidi and Daniel when they got into her phone?
38:13 Ashley Flowers? So here's what's interesting. I don't know where they find them. His phone, her phone, whatever. But I know that they find texts. However, they don't actually charge him with anything related to Heidi. And those texts never make it into any record that we have access to.
38:33 Speaker 01 And IMPD won't share records.
38:36 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, right. So in August of 2018, that is when Daniel goes to trial for his domestic violence charges. Now, he gets found guilty on eight of the 13 counts, but that's all involving his then-wife, not Heidi. So the only way I know that there were messages between him and Heidi that seems suspicious is because of what happens next. So in February of 2019, he gets deposed for Francisco's case. And the prosecutor presses him on Heidi, reading their texts aloud and basically saying that she thinks he's lying about the nature of their relationship. But his attorney jumps in and shuts it down, arguing that it could
39:17 Ashley Flowers? expose him to new charges and that that is not relevant to Francisco's case.
39:22 Speaker 01 Okay. If those texts could open him up to new charges, and the prosecutor has those texts. I hate to ask this question, but what are we doing here?
39:35 Ashley Flowers? Dude, I don't know. I like, I don't, because I don't know what's in them.
39:39 Speaker 01 I mean, maybe they knew they could only prove the DB charges and figured he'd get like a long enough sentence for those that they wouldn't have to wor- okay.
39:49 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, no, about that. So according to Indianapolis Star reporter Mark Alicia, at Daniel's sentencing, the judge says that she thinks he has this dark side, but also says that his police background makes prison more dangerous for him. So the judge considered it an extenuating circumstance, but still sentences him to eight years plus four years probation.
40:12 Speaker 01 That's something at least.
40:14 Ashley Flowers? Mm-hmm. Hang on. He wasn't in prison long before his lawyer asked for home detention, arguing that he wasn't safe behind bars. I guess the defense did some research, found out that the judge had the option to offer home detention and that Daniel, basically they're like, he has a job, he has a house, he has a baby on the way with his new wife.
40:32 Speaker 01 Oh.
40:33 Ashley Flowers? Oh, by the way, he has a new wife. He has older kids who depend on his paycheck. Prosecutors obviously objected.
40:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:40 Ashley Flowers? But a different judge okayed it. And after less than four months, Daniel was released on electronic monitoring. So he finishes the sentence in 2022. And since then, he has rebuilt his image in academia, branding himself as an advocate for justice impacted students, working in a university lab that studies criminal, legal, and social systems, and he's pursuing a PhD. To this day, Daniel insists that the judge got it wrong. He denies everything, the abuse, the texts, the threats, any inappropriate relationship with Heidi.
41:21 Speaker 01 I mean, people don't usually get paroled without admitting guilt. And, and Daniel clearly hasn't. So I know it's not quite parole, but like, why did he get to sit at home through all that?
41:31 Ashley Flowers? Dude, I wish I knew. The Marion County Prosecutor's Office told us that the lenient outcome was unusual, and they don't seem to know why he got it.
41:40 Speaker 01 And what happened to Francisco?
41:42 Ashley Flowers? Oh, so him. So in 2022, Francisco almost pleaded guilty to a reduced misdemeanor obstruction of justice. He gets a year of probation, 240 hours of community service, and is ordered to submit weekly journal entries to the court.
41:57 Speaker 01 Hold on. There are no police officers in trouble for having a relationship with a minor in the Police Explorer program?
42:10 Ashley Flowers? Well, since we couldn't get records from IMPD, I don't know if they even explored that angle. Heidi was a minor when she entered the program, but she was 18 when she died. And the only texts that we've seen are from when she was 18.
42:26 Speaker 01 So what are we supposed to take that to mean? Like, IMPD is just cool with allegations of officers grooming minors? They're cool with the power dynamic of an officer having a relationship with someone in their program as long as they're 18? I mean, there were at least internal affairs investigations in the Sandra Birchmore case. Like, that's something.
42:46 Ashley Flowers? Well, I mean, remember, IMPD did add a policy this year, 2025.
42:51 Speaker 01 Like, pretty recently.
42:52 Ashley Flowers? Heidi happened in 2015. 10 years later, they added a policy this year saying they weren't cool with it.
42:55 Speaker 01 Oh, good.
42:56 Ashley Flowers? But what is maddening to me is that more than a decade after Heidi's death, so much is still unclear. What did IMPD know and when?
43:05 Speaker 01 Right.
43:06 Ashley Flowers? It's obvious that someone in leadership saw something, at least with Francisco, because Janice told us that, apparently in the spring of 2015, so this is months before Heidi died, a high-ranking official pulled her aside and said that they were concerned Heidi was riding with the same male officer a little too often. He suggested that she, like, you know, maybe mix it up, ride with some different officers. Now, Janice doesn't remember if he named Francisco specifically, but she knew that's who he meant, since Heidi often did ride-alongs with him. So she and Mike told Heidi, "Switch it up." They assumed she did.
43:42 Speaker 01 So they were worried enough to tell her mom, but not to actually do anything themselves?
43:48 Ashley Flowers? We don't know what they did.
43:50 Speaker 01 Right.
43:50 Ashley Flowers? Meanwhile, despite what Daniel told us, that he was in the dark about Heidi's frequently tagging along with Francisco on patrol, after she died, he told her mom that everyone knew that they were going on too many ride-alongs. Mike and Janice still don't feel like they got the full story. And they feel betrayed, knowing that two men who were supposed to protect Heidi failed her. And those guys walked away with barely any consequences. Now, our team has spent the better part of a year trying to find out more. We filed multiple requests with IMPD. And we got back a few records and like vague assurances that they're working on getting us more. And at the same time, they claim that they're withholding some under an investigatory exemption.
44:35 Ashley Flowers? But they haven't said what or why, considering both criminal cases are closed. And they also declined an interview, saying that the answers are, wait for it, in the records.
44:45 Speaker 01 The records that they won't give us.
44:48 Ashley Flowers? Them the ones.
44:48 Speaker 01 Okay, so we're just like in this little circle.
44:50 Ashley Flowers? Yeah. Now, we couldn't reach Francisco. And neither he nor Daniel has ever publicly admitted to anything beyond a friendship with Heidi. But the general feeling from people we spoke to, family, friends, people in the mix, is that both crossed a line and they put Heidi in the middle, pressuring her to choose between them. And that toxic triangle dynamic isn't just our interpretation either. We spoke to John Moore, who is a former sergeant with the Special Investigations Unit at IMPD. He worked the case against Daniel. He told us that investigators' broader takeaway was that Heidi was in an inappropriate relationship involving both men. And that they both groomed her, using their authority and access as officers to build her trust and blur the boundaries.
45:35 Ashley Flowers? Court files have some details, but not enough to show how closely investigators looked at either of them. We don't know how seriously they checked out Daniel's relationship with Heidi, or how deeply they dug into Francisco beyond the obstruction case. Between the delays and the denials and the no comments, IMPD has made it nearly impossible to understand what really happened. And instead of answers, we got stonewalled. We don't even know how IMPD supervised the Explorer post. But if Daniel's account is accurate, he ran it mostly on his own. There were about 30 teens on the roster, maybe 10 regulars, and he was the only sworn officer directly involved. There was a sergeant who offered light oversight and a few adult volunteers that helped out, including former explorers.
46:20 Ashley Flowers? And when Daniel took over, he was a patrol officer with zero youth experience. He basically says that he was handed the post with a "here you go" and no manual, just Learning for Life handouts and IMPD's general orders, which he kind of cobbled together into a rulebook. And by the way, just as a reminder, Learning for Life is the organization that most explorer programs in the country run through. And as I mentioned, Learning for Life is an affiliate of scouting...
46:47 Speaker 01 America.
46:48 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, AKA the Boy Scouts. I don't know if you've ever heard of any abuse problems with them, but quick download. In 2020, the Boy Scouts filed for bankruptcy after being hit with over, wait for it, 82,000 sexual abuse claims, one of the largest abuse scandals in US history. The organization had known about the abuse for decades, keeping internal records commonly known as the "perversion files", but often failing to report abusers to authorities. So, all that to say, I bet you would be surprised to know that in 2015, Learning for Life still had no guidance on adult communication with teens outside of meetings. No policy on texting. Now, that same year, the Boy Scouts adopted a digital version
47:33 Ashley Flowers? of what they call "too-deep leadership", meaning that no one-on-one contact between adults and minors, including through texting, DMs, or gaming. But Learning for Life has its own handbook, and the digital contact rule wasn't included that year. And we couldn't find it in there until 2017. So, to me, this isn't just an Indianapolis problem. These programs seem to be built in a way that makes them prime for grooming. And the failures we're seeing here are happening in agencies all over the country. And there's no national public database for explorer misconduct. And we know sexual abuse in general is notoriously underreported. But there have been reporters and researchers who've tried to pin down how widespread this problem is.
48:18 Ashley Flowers? A recent investigation by Laquita Travis of the Marshall Project identified at least 217 abuse and misconduct allegations in law enforcement explorer programs going back to the 1970s when girls were first allowed in, spanning more than 100 agencies with officers grooming or sexually abusing victims as young as 13 or 14. A 2003 study by criminologist Samuel Walker and Don Earlbeck found that nearly half of all reported cases of officer sexual misconduct with teenagers happened in explorer posts. So even though these programs are just one way that cops interact with teens, they account for a disproportionate share of the known abuse. And while girls are more often targeted, boys and young men have been victimized too.
49:03 Ashley Flowers? Now, supporters of the programs point out that these cases are rare, a small fraction of the tens of thousands of teens who have participated since 1959, when a California Sheriff's Department started the very first post. And listen, for sure, when operated properly, explorer programs can offer real value. Participants, usually 14 to 20, get early exposure to police work while building leadership, discipline, confidence, a sense of belonging. Agencies get a recruitment pipeline, a way to connect with the community. It should be a win-win. So how do we get the good without putting children at risk? The answer is oversight.
49:45 Ashley Flowers? For post-under Learning for Life, the organization is supposed to set and enforce protection rules with a five-point safety plan. Screen out abusers, educate youth, parents, and volunteers about warning signs, set boundaries, encourage reporting, remove offenders. In practice, every safeguard lives or dies at the local level. And as then freelance journalist Jonathan Kaminsky found, historically, Learning for Life has mostly left agencies to police themselves. And inside that shaky setup is a glaring vulnerability. Ride-alongs, the program's most popular feature and its riskiest.
50:24 Ashley Flowers? California-based attorney Anthony DiMarco, who has spent years litigating Explorer abuse cases, told us that ride-alongs are a perfect setup for exploitation. Hours alone with a powerful adult, with no one else able to see or hear what's happening, and almost no real oversight from the department.
50:43 Speaker 01 But doesn't that too-deep-leadership rule apply?
50:48 Ashley Flowers? Everywhere except ride-alongs. At least, they were the exception, until just this past June, when Learning for Life finally started requiring two adults in the car if the Explorer is under 18. Before that, the loophole was wide open. And the Marshall Project concluded that ride-alongs factored into about a quarter of abuse cases. But ride-alongs are only part of it. These programs are a perfect storm because they stack all these risk factors together. Officers get access to teens, oversight is often thin, and the kids want to be there. They're ambitious. They want to impress. A lot of them see this as their future. And the structure can make it hard to tell where "normal" training ends
51:31 Ashley Flowers? and something sketchy begins. So when an officer singles them out with extra attention...
51:37 Speaker 01 It can feel important.
51:39 Ashley Flowers? It's their big break, instead of feeling like a red flag. That's how grooming usually starts here, not with threats, but with connection. An officer becomes a confidant, builds trust, maybe gets close to the family. And that's just as true when the teen is legally an adult, like Heidi. A birthday does not erase the power imbalance. And from there, things can escalate, right? It's a ride home, a private hangout, late-night messages. By the time that it's clearly sexual or coercive, the teen might actually feel like they went along with it, or that speaking up would ruin everything: their reputation, their shot at the job, their future. Anthony says that there is often this unspoken deal: stay quiet, and the doors stay open.
52:24 Ashley Flowers? Speak up, and it slams shut. And victims might also be afraid, by the way. They're cops. These are cops. Yes, they carry weapons. Yeah. They can arrest you. A lot of victims worry that they'll be targeted or that no one is going to believe them. So many of them never even tell. Some of them come forward years later. And even when they do, there's no guarantee that they're going to get justice. And this isn't just a stat. So I did a bit of a call out about the Explorer program, if you remember, in our episode on Peggy Hetrich. And not too long ago, I posted a TikTok asking people to share their stories with me if they were in the program. Didn't say what kind of stories, just left it open. And the number of messages I got from people was wild.
53:09 Ashley Flowers? So many of them had stories from their past where either they had friends that were in intimate relationships with officers or they themselves were groomed. And tons of them still didn't want to come forward even now. So the problem is so much bigger than we think it is. But there were some people who decided to share their story in hopes that it could save even one more young person from abuse. And one of those people was a 43-year-old woman who I'll call Kate. Let's face it, if student loans are slowing down your financial goals, it might be time for a smarter strategy. That's where today's sponsor SoFi comes in. SoFi is helping you tackle student debt by refinancing your loans with flexible monthly payments that fit your budget.
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55:58 Ashley Flowers? In 1998, then-15-year-old Kate joined the Boscoin Police Explorer Program in New Hampshire. She'd grown up admiring a dare officer and knew that she wanted to be a cop. And the post seemed like a perfect first step. A small group of teens, led by Officer John LaRoche, who was in his late 20s. And John's mom had been a teacher of Kate, so he, like, already felt safe. And he knew how badly she wanted this career. And he knew that she was vulnerable. As a pre-teen, she'd questioned her sexuality. Her parents eventually came around, but for a while, they restricted what she could do. She felt really cut off.
56:39 Ashley Flowers? And John acted like the one adult who accepted her no matter what. As the explorer advisor, he controlled everything. The program included regular ride-alongs, sometimes overnight shifts, and Kate was often paired with him. And her parents were fine with it. They trusted him and supported her goals. But it didn't take long for him to start just like pushing boundaries. Within months, she said that he was steering conversations toward sex, making crude jokes, asking her about her experiences and oversharing his own, including that he cheated on his wife. Now, at first, Kate didn't see it as wrong. It felt like he was treating her like an equal. She actually felt special.
57:23 Ashley Flowers? But sometime around early 2000, Kate says that he assaulted her. It happened in this dark secluded lot near the county jail, this like boat launch that he routinely checked while on patrol. And she tells us that one night, he drove there, made a comment about people having sex there, and then told her to get out of the car and perform oral sex on him. And she said she didn't feel like she had a choice. She was a teenage girl alone with an armed officer, afraid of his reaction, afraid of ruining her future, so she complied. Kate told us that there were more assaults in the months that followed, all while he was on duty. At one point, she says that Johnny even showed her a news article about another cop getting arrested for assaulting an explorer.
58:08 Ashley Flowers? He then pulled out the New Hampshire Criminal Code and read her the exact statute, the one that described what he was doing as felonious sexual assault. Like Kate didn't want to anger him, so she like tried to reassure him. Like she was over 16, the age of consent in New Hampshire. But he corrected her, "If the adult is in a position of authority, the law is actually 18." So he absolutely knew what he was doing. And he made sure Kate knew too. And after that, she changed. She became this shadow of the fun-loving kid that her friends knew. She tried to tell another explorer what was happening, but instead of support, she got shamed. So she stayed in the post for a couple more years.
58:49 Ashley Flowers? It did open doors for her, like she graduated high school early, she got into a criminal justice program, even landed a civilian job with another police department. But the trauma followed her. She was convinced that she led him on, that she didn't deserve happiness. And eventually she gave up her dream of becoming a cop. Now, years passed, Kate got married, and in 2013, she had a daughter. And there was something about becoming a parent that made her finally see things differently. And she knew that she'd want someone to be held accountable if they did this to her child. So in September of 2014, after a lot of soul searching, she actually reported John. He was long gone from Boscoon by then.
59:33 Ashley Flowers? He was chief of police in nearby Canterbury by that time. But since he and the Boscoon chief had worked together, the case was handed over to the New Hampshire Attorney General's office. Investigators asked Kate to wear a wire and confront him. And listen, she hadn't seen him in ages, and the prospect of this was like overwhelming, but she agreed. And she goes to meet him at the Canterbury station. And on tape, they have this guy admitting to the sexual activity, even apologizing, though he was like insisting it was consensual. And later, when investigators confronted him again, he repeated the confession. And according to WMUR's Heather Hamel,
1:00:13 Ashley Flowers? he even said that he thought it was, quote, "fun to flirt with a 16-year-old under his control."
1:00:19 Speaker 01 What?
1:00:20 Ashley Flowers? In August 2015, John was arrested for aggravated felonious sexual assault and placed on unpaid leave. And news coverage shows that he was indicted on a slew of felony and misdemeanor sexual assault charges a couple of months later. Then he resigned the following January. By summer of 2016, the case went to trial. He actually took the stand, where again, he admits to the sexual encounters with Kate, but is still claiming they were consensual.
1:00:48 Speaker 01 How can he call it consensual when the law literally says it wasn't? And also, he pointed out that law.
1:00:55 Ashley Flowers? Literally, that's what prosecutors argued, that like the whole thing was grooming and coercion. They brought in an expert on trauma and pressed him on his changing stories. But John's defense painted him as like this like fumbling and harmless guy and suggested that Kate had financial motive to go after him. Two former explorers testified that she had, quote, "bragged about the relationship." And so after seven days of testimony, the jury deliberated for just two hours, and they found him not guilty on all charges. I know.
1:01:29 Speaker 01 In what world was he not in a position of authority?
1:01:34 Ashley Flowers? It's baffling.
1:01:34 Speaker 01 This is unreal.
1:01:36 Ashley Flowers? According to Kate, prosecutors later asked her what shaped their decision. And you know, they said they just couldn't picture John being a violent guy. And they questioned why she would stay in the program. Some people thought she cried too much. Some people thought she didn't cry enough or that she seemed just too strong.
1:01:52 Speaker 01 So it didn't matter what she did or was going to do. It was the wrong reaction. She was never going to make herself the perfect victim for them.
1:01:59 Ashley Flowers? Which is like what we see all the time, right? Like survivors are held to impossible standards. They're expected to fit this narrow script, like be composed, but not too composed. Remember every detail, even though trauma distorts memory. And if they don't match what people think a real victim, quote unquote, looks like, they're not believed. Kate was crushed. The Attorney General's Office encouraged her to file a civil suit. Like some survivors pursue that even when criminal charges don't stick. But she just couldn't stomach another courtroom. Like the public backlash was already intense and she worried that suing would make people dismiss her story. Like think it was just about money, so she decided against it. The upside is that John LaRoche is no longer a cop.
1:02:43 Ashley Flowers? And after he was suspended, locals raised broader concerns about Canterbury P D. So the sheriff's office reviewed the department and they actually found over a decade of mismanagement and dysfunction under his leadership. Now, we reached out to John via text. He told us that there was nothing to discuss since he was found not guilty. And when we noted that he still admitted to sexual contact with a minor explorer and asked if he had anything to say now, nearly a decade later, he said that he'd already answered for it at trial and told us to lose his number. No one at Bosco and P D today was around during John's time or the explorer era. But the chief told us that the program was shut down long before John's arrest
1:03:26 Ashley Flowers? and that no other complaints were ever reported. Speaking out even now still feels risky to Kate emotionally and legally. Like, we're using a pseudonym, but that's not gonna hide her identity from him or the community. But she decided it was worth it. Silence hadn't protected her. It only protected him, and she wants people to know what happened. And she hopes that her story helps someone else get justice, even though she didn't. And Kate's not alone in that hope, or even that outcome. For many survivors, justice stays just out of reach. The Marshall Project found that only about half of the Explorer-related cases that they tracked led to any time behind bars. And a big reason is because of plea deals.
1:04:10 Ashley Flowers? Charges just get, like, reduced to misdemeanors or to non-sex offenses. Beyond Explorer Post, a Washington Post investigation found that nearly 40% of officers convicted of sex crimes involving children from 2005 to 2022 never served a day in prison. Hmm. And when there is punishment, there is no real standard of what that is. Charges fall under this, like, mix of state and federal laws, statutory rape, abuse of power, civil rights violations. Prosecutors don't always use the same playbook, even when the behavior looks similar, and so sentencing is all over the place. Right. Inside agencies, discipline is just as inconsistent. Some officers are fired, some resign, others stay on the job with reprimand, or short
1:04:55 Ashley Flowers? suspension, or sometimes nothing at all. And that's what happened in Jennifer's case. In the late 80s, Jennifer joined the Contra Costa County Sheriff's Explorer Program in California after hearing about it at school. She was 15 and already set on a career in law enforcement. And this post was smaller, like, fewer than 10 teens, and run entirely by one deputy who we're gonna call Bill. Bill, who was in his mid-to-late 30s, started inviting Jennifer on overnight ride-alongs a couple of times a week. Her parents are fine with it. She was with a cop, like, what could be safer? And over the next couple of years, he slowly introduced her to inappropriate behavior, things like telling her how beautiful that she was gonna be when she grew up.
1:05:39 Ashley Flowers? She trusted him, believed what he said, and valued his opinion. She idolized this man. So when one night, he turned around in the patrol car and kissed her, she was stunned, but also flattered. A month later, he took her to his house while his wife was away and pressured her to have sex. She said no, and he stopped. Now, soon after, her family moved to Florida. And before leaving, she confided in another explorer. Not as like a cry for help like Kate, more like she was mourning the end of something that she thought was real. Like, in her mind, what they had had been a relationship. That explorer told the sheriff's office. And to their credit, they opened an investigation.
1:06:23 Ashley Flowers? But by then, Jennifer was across the country. So everything was happening over the phone with her, but only with her.
1:06:30 Speaker 01 What do you mean only her? They didn't talk to her parents?
1:06:36 Ashley Flowers? Mm-mm. They had no idea that that...
1:06:38 Speaker 01 Even though she was still a minor?
1:06:40 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, it's wild. And like, in that moment, since Jennifer was like so embarrassed, she minimized it. But she did at least confirm that they kissed and that the relationship was inappropriate. The sheriff's office didn't respond to our interview request. But as far as we know, the investigation went nowhere. Bill didn't lose his badge. Records show that he did step down as explorer advisor in 1991. But he stayed on the job for nearly two more decades. Jennifer joined another explorer post in Florida, this one larger and more structured. But the same problems persisted. She remembers the comments, like the lingering attention from male cops of all ages.
1:07:23 Ashley Flowers? At the time, when she's young, it didn't feel predatory. It felt like being noticed. She went through the academy, worked as a dispatcher, and became a reserve officer. But the steady boundary pushing wore her down. And eventually, she realized, these are not superheroes. They are just human men in uniforms, some good, some not. So when she got pregnant, she left the field. Last year, while flipping through an old photo album, Jennifer decided that she actually wanted to confront Bill. That's when she found out that he died. So there would be no reckoning, no chance to look him in the eye and tell him what he'd done to her. And she carried shame for years, blaming herself.
1:08:07 Ashley Flowers? And only later did she understand how vulnerable teens are and how men like Bill take advantage of that. Heidi, Kate, Jennifer, and so many others, they did what adults told them to do. They trusted the people in charge, and so did their parents. I mean, go back to Heidi. Take Mike and Janice Gatliff. They were so involved. It's not like they just dropped Heidi off and hoped for the best. Mike went to her first meeting. They showed up to events. But they were also trusting the system and thought that Heidi was surrounded by honorable cops worthy of their powerful positions. You know, they still believe the law enforcement Explorer programs can work if there's real oversight and accountability. But they don't think Heidi got that.
1:08:50 Ashley Flowers? And they have to live with the ache of knowing that they'll never see her huge smile or hear her contagious laugh again. She'll never wear the badge that she worked so hard for, pouring nearly 2,000 hours into the Explorers. So what they hold on to now is their faith and their memories. The way that Heidi could turn everything into a joke. The moment that she made a quiet child in Haiti smile during a missions trip just by refusing to give up. They know that Heidi changed lives simply by being who she was. And her compassion and her drive and her goofy sense of humor all came from one place: a heart that was wired to show up for others.
1:09:28 Speaker 01 So in all of this, I have to ask, does IMPD still have its program?
1:09:34 Ashley Flowers? When Detective Christine Manina took over after Daniel Bullman, she told us that it was basically a free-for-all. Like teens tried to outrank her and like boss her around. So back then, she came in, she set new rules, tightened boundaries. Some of the kids left, most of them stayed. And she ran the program for like five years before she retired. And to answer your question, no, they don't have an Explorer program now. They have something called Junior Cadets, but as of late October, IMPD told us no one was enrolled in that. So whether that's A fresh start or just a rebrand remains to be seen. Because a new name doesn't mean new safeguards. And those safeguards are what's necessary. Because this isn't just about a few bad apples.
1:10:19 Ashley Flowers? This is, I keep saying it, about a system that allowed them to operate. Policies that left massive gaps. Higher ups that looked the other way or downplayed allegations. And a culture that protected the institution first and the kids last. And girl, this isn't even a new problem. Like, F the stats. This has been a systemic issue for decades. Like, I don't know if you knew this, but in the 70s, the Los Angeles Police Department found itself under investigation after some officers were discovered taking overnight camping trips with teenage girls from the department's all-female Explorer post. And one of the girls described these camping trips as, quote, "little more than orgies." According to Jonathan Kaminsky's reporting, it had been happening for a couple of years before the Explorer sounded the alarm.
1:11:03 Ashley Flowers? In that case, some officers were charged, but news coverage shows that most of the cases just collapsed. Prosecutors cited a lack of evidence and victim cooperation. In some cases, they say they couldn't prove that the officers knew that the girls were underage. I guess it was too much detective work for them to like, figure out that the girls in a youth program were youths. Yeah. And department discipline was also weak. Like, a few resigned, a few were suspended, one was fired. One got a disability pension for injuries and emotional stress. Others were cleared. And then, like, by the late 70s, the whole thing just like fizzled out in the media. It doesn't have to be this way. Some groups are doing it right. Like the Dutchess County Sheriff's Office Law Enforcement Youth Cadet Program in New York.
1:11:48 Ashley Flowers? Their advisor, Sergeant Alonso Montagna, has built guardrails into every part of it. Communication runs through tracked group platforms. Parents are looped in early and often. And historically, they haven't even allowed ride-alongs at all. When Nina spoke with Sergeant Montagna earlier this year, they were just starting to phase them in with very strict rules. And we spoke to a woman named Dawn Bowley in Wisconsin. She says that she joined her local Explorer post in the early 1980s when she was a freshman in high school. She learned skills like convict resolution, emergency response, even firearms training. She loved her program leaders and says that they changed her life and the lives of others in the program. For Dawn, it wasn't just a resume builder. It was formative. It showed her how to stay calm under pressure
1:12:31 Ashley Flowers? and that being a cop wasn't the path for her at all.
1:12:34 Speaker 01 So... It's not the explorers that need to stop.
1:12:39 Ashley Flowers? Yes.
1:12:39 Speaker 01 As usual.
1:12:40 Ashley Flowers? It's just the abuse.
1:12:42 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:12:42 Ashley Flowers? But any meaningful change has to start with the agencies running these programs. They're the ones with the power and the obligation to enforce the rules.
1:12:51 Speaker 01 The responsibility.
1:12:52 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, and my God, be thoughtful about who you put in charge. Don't just grab whoever's free and hand them a group of teenagers. I mean, like, right now, the qualifications are pretty minimal. Advisors have to be at least 21, pass a background check, and get agency approval, and then be signed off by the local exploring council.
1:13:11 Speaker 01 And do they go through any, like, serious safety training?
1:13:15 Ashley Flowers? Not really. So beyond the background check, the, like, training they have to do is pretty much just online webinars. And actually, Nina, when she was doing all the reporting on this, she took them and earned the same safety certification that advisors get while sitting on her couch in one night.
1:13:30 Speaker 01 Salute to Nina.
1:13:31 Ashley Flowers? Salute to Nina. Now, the recent ride-along policy change by Learning for Life, which, by the way, never responded to our interview requests, is a step in the right direction. But rules on paper are the easy part. We still don't know how or how often that policy is enforced, or what actually happens to agencies that ignore it. That attorney I mentioned, Anthony DiMarco, sees the problem as systemic. Officers are given unsupervised access to minors, then protected by a culture and union contracts that often shield them from serious consequences, even when there is misconduct. His view is, don't just slap a Band-Aid on the problem.
1:14:09 Speaker 01 Right.
1:14:09 Ashley Flowers? Make it as transparent and accountable from the ground up, starting with ride-alongs. So, what can we do?
1:14:16 Speaker 01 Right.
1:14:17 Ashley Flowers? Here you go. I love to leave you with a good takeaway. So if you're a parent, an agency, or a teenager in the program, I got you covered. Starting with agencies. Define inappropriate contact clearly. Things like shoulder rubs or oversharing. And act early with serious discipline or termination before it escalates. Make ride-along assignments random, so officers can't quietly handpick the same teen over and over. Use tech, interior audio and video in patrol cars. GPS tracking, maybe even like an Uber style recording that kicks on for every ride along. Anthony thinks that there'd be a lot of pushback on this idea from cops and explorers, which like, effing why, but like if it protects-
1:14:59 Speaker 01 But also, okay.
1:15:00 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, you're welcome to pushback, I'm still gonna put the camera in, because if it protects even one kid, it is worth-
1:15:04 Speaker 01 It's worth it.
1:15:05 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, I don't care if you're uncomfortable. And meanwhile, explorers need to be told straight up that reporting something won't tank their careers.
1:15:13 Speaker 01 Right.
1:15:13 Ashley Flowers? And the adults who brush off or hide concerns should be held accountable for that.
1:15:18 Speaker 01 So, the opposite of the whole thin blue line mentality.
1:15:22 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, and Anthony says that it is up to leadership to flip that script. In California, even a rumor can trigger a legal duty to report. So agencies need to normalize speaking up and not punish it. They should use the very real risk of lawsuits as leverage and pushback when union protections keep repeat offenders in positions of trust around teens. Now, for parents, if your child wants to join an explorer or cadet program, don't assume a uniform means it's safe. Treat it the way you would any new school, or like a daycare when your kids were little. Like, ask who runs the post, what are the rules, how do ride alongs get tracked? What's the policy on texting and social media, and how are complaints handled?
1:16:05 Ashley Flowers? Stay involved, show up, talk to advisors, connect with other parents. The more visible you are, the easier it is for your kid to speak up if something feels off. And keep the conversations going at home. Talk about boundaries. Make sure your kids know that they can come to you if an adult, even if an adult in uniform-
1:16:23 Speaker 01 Especially someone in uniform in this case.
1:16:26 Ashley Flowers? Right, if they make them uncomfortable. Remind them that abuse is never their fault, and if they disclose it, go straight to authorities. And if local law enforcement shrugs you off, or you're concerned about a conflict of interest, go above them and go to state or federal agencies. And finally, for my youths listening, explorers or no explorers, like you guys are faced with some crazy shit all the time. I wanted to be 20 when I was eight, and I was like dying for someone to look at me like I was older and mature. And some people will do that with respect. They will give you responsibility and like room to come into your own. Others will take advantage of that. I didn't know what the signs were when I was young. And so let me just talk to you like you're the grown up you are.
1:17:10 Ashley Flowers? You are not an idiot. If you feel like a line is being crossed, you get that like tingle in your spine, that jelly in your belly, like you know something is off. You don't have to justify it. You don't have to excuse it away. It is not your responsibility to make adults feel comfortable. And you do not have to protect them from their own actions. And if you realize it too late, no, you didn't. It is never too late to draw that line and stop unwanted behavior. And it is never your fault. Doesn't matter if it's a cop, doesn't matter if it's your pastor or a teacher or a coach. Whether it's an explorer program or somewhere else, you do not owe anyone your time, attention, or access.
1:17:53 Ashley Flowers? So if an officer asks to meet alone, or sends flirty or secretive messages, or just gives you a bad feeling, tell someone you trust. And if something has already happened, you are not to blame. Even if you didn't or couldn't say no in the moment, even if it felt like something you agreed to. Power dynamics can twist what feels like a choice, and you deserve support no matter what. So, crime junkies, if any part of this episode hits home, if you know someone who has been affected by abuse in any youth setting, or you just want those spaces to be safer, talk about it. Share this episode. We can do better. We have to.
1:18:36 Ashley Flowers? For Heidi, and Kate, and Jennifer, and for the next teenager who walks into an explorer post with dreams of one day wearing a badge.
1:18:58 Ashley Flowers? If you or someone you know is struggling or has experienced abuse, help is available. We'll link to resources in our show notes, including hotlines for sexual assault, child abuse, domestic violence, and suicide prevention. Please reach out if you need to, or share them with someone who might. As always, you can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com. And if you want to listen to more episodes like this and all of our episodes completely ad-free, be sure to join our fan club. You'll also get early access to new episodes every week and bonus content every month.
1:19:29 Speaker 01 And you can follow us on Instagram, @crimejunkiepodcast.
1:19:33 Ashley Flowers? We'll see you next episode. But stick around because we have some good.
1:19:56 Speaker 01 Okay, Ashley, it's the last good of the year. Is it really? Yeah. Oh, wow. I've loved doing this every month. It's like my favorite, favorite thing. So this one is a submission from our website. "I've been a listener since 2020, when a friend got me hooked and I needed something to distract me from the craziness of working in healthcare during COVID." God bless. Hero. "Long story short, the more I listened, the more I saw cracks in our social justice and welfare systems. I decided to pursue a degree in social work in an effort to advocate for all those whose lives could have been saved in so many ways if the system and those who operate within it had the resources and collaboration they needed. Now, I'm almost in my last semester to earn my BSW,
1:20:41 Speaker 01 and I'm about to start an internship with the Office of the ME." Fun fact, Utah has one ME for the entire
1:20:49 Ashley Flowers? What?
1:20:50 Speaker 01 state, giving the unique opportunity to provide outreach and education to the community.
1:20:55 Ashley Flowers? I did not know that.
1:20:55 Speaker 01 Because of your podcast, I also applied for and was accepted into a Justice Advocacy Fellowship, where interns are placed in local nonprofits in an effort to learn more about the needs of our communities and how to best support each other. I'm the first social work student to be in the program, and I'm hoping to not be the last. I want to spread the work on the importance of community and looking out for one another. While this has always been something I've been passionate about, Crime Junkie showed me what an amazing community it has fostered and pushed me to do my part. I'm also pushing for a national DCFS database so that abusers cannot simply move around unnoticed.
1:21:33 Ashley Flowers? Yes, ma'am.
1:21:35 Speaker 01 I'm trying to push for policy change that requires more collaborative work between law enforcement and other agencies, working to prevent people from becoming another crime junkie case. You're gonna love this last line. It takes a village, right? I hope to make you guys proud by expanding your village.
1:21:51 Ashley Flowers? That was like, perfect for this episode, too, you guys.
1:21:53 Speaker 01 I know.
1:21:54 Ashley Flowers? We need more good people.
1:21:56 Speaker 01 And this listener had a whole other career
1:21:59 Ashley Flowers? I
1:21:59 Speaker 01 in healthcare before they were like, no, I need, I could do more. I, I'm going to do more.
1:22:04 Ashley Flowers? Welcome to the village.
1:22:06 Speaker 01 Welcome to the village.
1:22:07 Ashley Flowers? Don't make me start a call, I will.
1:22:13 Ashley Flowers? Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. I think Chuck would approve.
1:22:21 Speaker 05 When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir, and that can only mean one thing: Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful, you never know what might follow you home. So gather round, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.
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