482: Roll Up Your Sleeves and CHOP THAT S**T UP. With CSM Daniel Pinion.

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Daniel L. Pinion is a military veteran of the Cold War, Operation Joint Endeavor (Bosnia-Herzegovina), and multiple tours in Operation Iraqi Freedom. He served in numerous Infantry, Armor and Cavalry units and leadership positions during his 28-year career. CSM (R) Pinion has served as Squad Leader, Section Sergeant, Drill Sergeant, Platoon Sergeant, First Sergeant, Instructor, Operations Sergeant Major, and Command Sergeant Major. Born in Ohio, raised in Andover, NJ, CSM (R) Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 482 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:07Jocko Willink?

  Once we arrived at Camp Ramadi in June, everyone could tell we were not in the north anymore. Mortar attacks occurred daily and we were located right against the enemy held parts of the city. I said that correctly. The enemy controlled over 75% of the city, from government buildings to hospitals and neighborhoods. However, we held the edge of the east and the west sides of the town. We had a transition of authority scheduled around June 2006 from their brigade to ours. We would officially assume control of the operation and they would go home.

• 0:48Jocko Willink?

  About two weeks before the turnover, Captain Bauma was reassigned to a tank company. This is a backward move for an officer. They do their initial command in the tank unit and if they are the best of the best, they are selected to command the likes of us. However, for our brigade and the mission in Ramadi, this was one of the best decisions that Colonel Sean McFarland, the brigade commander, ever made. Captain Mike Main Gun Bauma had the perfect amount of arrogance, competence, courage, and audacity to do what needed to be done as a tank company commander.

• 1:26Jocko Willink?

  The plan was set. The night of turnover, our brigade would attack the city. We would simply push from west and east and meet in the middle, no matter how long that took. Our unit was again attached to another battalion and we were still serving conventional roles. But as a bonus, we'd be in a close relationship with SEAL Team 3 tasking a bruiser and begin planning for our small kill team operations.

• 2:00Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is a little excerpt from a book, an outstanding book, which is called Chop That Shit Up. And we will get to the meaning of behind that title. It's written by a guy named Daniel Pinion, who is a retired Army Command Sergeant Major. He served for 28 years in the Army and he led infantry, he led armor, he led cavalry soldiers at every level of leadership. He's been awarded the Legion of Merit, two Bronze Stars, Purple Heart, five Meritorious Service Medals, nine Army Achievement Medals, and a slew of other personal and unit awards. His Brigade Recon Troop in the Battle of Ramadi was

• 2:43Jocko Willink?

  deployed constantly into points of friction. And his troop suffered the highest casualty rate of any company-sized unit in the entire Brigade. And yet, under Dan Pinion's leadership, they never wavered. Not one time. And it's an honor to have him with us here tonight to share some of his experiences and lessons learned. Dan, it's great to see you, man. And thanks for joining us.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jocko, this is amazing. Thank you so much, Echo. Awesome to see you, brother. I look forward to telling some of these stories. Thank you.

• 3:21Jocko Willink?

  Um, nine Army Achievement Medals. So I thought I was pretty good because I have five Navy Achievement Medals. You know, Echo Charles, you can get an Army Achievement Medal or Navy Achievement Medal for like, some very interesting things. I think I got, I think I got four of them as an enlisted guy. And it would be like, this is during the 90s. And I get Navy Achievement Medal, you know, because I ran a course of instruction that included 13 hours of training or something like that. You get a Navy Achievement Medal. So, but nine of them.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I might've got one for showing up to formation on time.

• 3:57Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome, man. Uh, yeah, thanks for joining us. This book is, this book is amazing. It's just an outstanding book and we'll, we'll, we'll talk about how you wrote the book and everything, but let's, let's get into the book a little bit and, and go through what your life was like, uh, before you started your Army career. I'm going to go to the book here. It says, "I grew up average in almost every possible way."

• 4:21Jocko Willink?

  Although my mom divorced my biological father when I was little, I grew up in a parent, two-parent household from the age of five and count my stepfather as my dad. I have a twin sister, two younger brothers and cousins who lived only 30 minutes away from us growing up. It takes a village to raise a child and we had that with our family and community. And this was where? In New Jersey?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, New Jersey.

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  Whereabouts in New Jersey was it?

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Andover, New Jersey, Newton, New Jersey. So way up north.

• 4:46Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Right against Pennsylvania, Delwater Gap. So if you ever eat M and M's, I'm looking at you two. You guys obviously don't eat M and M's, but.

• 4:54Jocko Willink?

  Nope, let's not jump to conclusions here. I could get busy on some M and M's for the time of the time.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  If you ever eat some M and M's, they're made right in town next to us in Haggis Town. But so right up by the Delwater Gap. Country. In fact, we're so country, they used to come saying, old McDonald had a farm when they come play us in sports. So cornfields and dairy cows.

• 5:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's awesome. You say, I considered, I considered us middle-class. Big house with a yard, woods for days behind us, a friendly and safe neighborhood and hardworking parents who seem to make everything possible for their kids. My mom couponed during the week with my Aunt Barbie and then woke up, woke me up every Sunday to help deliver the Sunday paper while listening to Elvis on the radio. My dad, who to this day never sits still, worked in the garage or at work from 6:00 a.m. until 11:00 p.m. almost daily to help us make ends meet. I also think he simply liked tinkering with cars and listening to the eight-track player. What, what did he do for a living? Was he a mechanic?

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, mechanic. Basically diesel mechanic, self-taught and never school trained and probably, I mean, people call him to this day about mechanics. I'm, this guy, dad, I love you. This guy, I'm amazed at how smart he is. He's amazing.

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  And then, so he worked at a shop and then you guys had a garage at home. He was constantly working on stuff.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Correct. He just got himself another car that he's fixing up.

• 6:19Jocko Willink?

  What'd he get? Do you know?

• 6:20Speaker 01

  No, it's old though. It's like 1920s, 1930s. He's gonna fix it up and he sells it.

• 6:25Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome, man. Uh, going back here, I was taught to hunt fish, explore, dig fence posts, garden, build retaining walls, etc. The end of school year meant going to the local flea market and picking out new work boots and a mall to split firewood. My dad would cut down trees. My sister Debbie and I would load the wood and bring it back. And in the summer, I would split the firewood with my sister while my sister stacked it. On one side was last year's wood, dried out for the winter coming and we would split and stack next year's wood on the other side. This is just a northeast thing. That's what we're doing.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Gotta get ready.

• 7:00Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so you're playing sports. You play baseball.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 7:03Jocko Willink?

  And you're left-handed.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I realized I was left-handed when I was 13 and my uncle saw me tossing pebbles at my grandparents' house and I couldn't throw pebbles right-handed. Even though I played sports right-handed. And he looked at me and said, why? I said, I can't. It's too small. It didn't feel right. Saw me throwing left-handed, he said, get in the truck. Took me down, bought me, he's like, you're left-handed. And I started playing baseball left-handed from that age.

• 7:29Jocko Willink?

  What other sports did you play?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, you grow up playing basketball. You try it all. Uh, but I've, you know, I dropped basketball after I think my freshman year of high school and then I always loved, we always loved baseball. My entire cousins, I, we always played baseball.

• 7:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you, you played a lot and you say that you were mentally tough and physically athletic, but you lacked the discipline to make your dreams come true. Cause the dreams, of course, being, uh, Yankee.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. New York Yankees. Go Yanks.

• 7:55Jocko Willink?

  And it sounds like, uh, you say my relationship with academics was the same. So.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  I was lazy. Let's just call it what it is. Uh, naturally smart, naturally athletic, lazy.

• 8:10Jocko Willink?

  I was the, I was the opposite. Naturally unathletic, naturally dumb and just hardworking and stubborn.

• 8:18Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so then you, you end up talking about the army. Um, I guess your grandfather, um, Frank Richards was in World War II. Uncle George was also in the army. He was in Hawaii during the Vietnam War. But did you, as you started thinking about it? Was it like, when did, when did the army start to, start to enter your mind as a, a possible plan?

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Wasn't even an idea until, like I said, we were cutting firewood and my father brought it up and he was like, hey, I don't think you're going to make it basically in baseball. You just don't have the drive or, you know, that you need. And we were cutting firewood and he's like, hey, I need you to talk to my buddy Ali, the state trooper who's also in the National Guard. And Ali's like, yeah, talk to this guy. He's a recruiter of mine in the same National Guard unit. And really like 48 hours later, I was in the National Guard.

• 9:11Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  I mean, I put no thought into this thing. I mean, it took a test and they're like, hey, man, you scored off the charts. Um, ASFAB way up at the top, uh, GT score near the top. I think it was like a 122 or something like that. And they're like, hey, you can have any job you want, but National Guard's like, hey, here's what you want. I saw a video of scouts doing reconnaissance, making grenades and the, you know, trip wires. And I was like, yep, that's me, buddy. Let's do it. I hated getting my hands dirty at the time. I was like, nope, that's what I want. And two days, yeah, 48 hours later, I was in the National Guard.

• 9:47Jocko Willink?

  That's wild. You could go 48 hours.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, no thought whatsoever.

• 9:50Jocko Willink?

  It is also awesome that you can be a kid. How old were you?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, about to turn 18, I was 17.

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you can be a kid with

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I needed a parent's signature.

• 9:59Jocko Willink?

  No plan whatsoever. And all of a sudden you can have your whole life kind of, kind of planned out.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

• 10:06Jocko Willink?

  Uh, how's basic training? What was that all about?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I don't, I absolutely loved it. I had no, I loved it. I have never realized how challenging and fun it could be. Like I realized I needed structure like that. So getting yelled at, like I loved watching people not fail.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Mentally break because they didn't realize that it was a game like to me it was a game. Watching drill sergey yell at you to try and change and have you become a team. I immediately playing sports realized what they were trying to do and try and get us to do something and work together. So I was naturally trying to pull people together as a team like informally and try and get us and then watching people who couldn't understand that concept and then like, oh, they're yelling at me and then break. I I couldn't grasp like, well, have you never not been yelled at or have something hard and then being physically tired? I think I gained thirty pounds, forty pounds of muscle. Like I went in one fifty, like six foot

• 11:15Speaker 01

  and came out like six, two and one ninety or something like that. So the challenge, the structure, I was tired. And then the paycheck, oh, my gosh, I couldn't believe they're paying me.

• 11:25Jocko Willink?

  Richest guy in the world. That's how I felt.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I couldn't, seven hundred bucks or whatever it was a month.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  I I loved it. It was amazing. And then I remember shooting that machine gun the first time. And I think.

• 11:39Jocko Willink?

  Love at first sight, boy.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  I was hitting rounds on target, five to seven round bursts on the M sixty machine gun. And I remember the drill sergeant slapping me with the range rod on top of my helmet. And I thought I did something wrong. And next thing you know, he's like, more ammo, more ammo. And I started watching barrels start to fall because I kept hitting the barrels at like two hundred meters. And I knocked all the barrels off and they just kept giving me more ammo and I knew right like I'm in heaven.

• 12:10Jocko Willink?

  Did you shoot left handed?

• 12:11Speaker 01

  No, I was right handed. Yeah, I was right handed. No, I don't, I don't need, I don't need brass and going everywhere. Brass deflectors. Yeah, no.

• 12:20Jocko Willink?

  This is what you say in the book too. You so you come home, you're you're like a thick, thick guy. You say, my shoulders were broader and I look good. But National Guard is one weekend a month, two weeks a year. What do I do with the rest of my time? I did what any cool high school graduate would do. I went to my local high school basketball game to show everyone how cool I was and see the ladies. As stupid, as stupid as it sounds, this is where I realized I needed to be a full time soldier. That's like a good wake up call. You're like, what am I doing here?

• 12:52Speaker 01

  No, it is. All right, all right, all right.

• 12:56Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, McConaughey.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it really is, you know, so I went back. It's December. So I graduated right before Christmas. So Exodus, I go back. And what do you do? My friends are coming back from college, but I don't really relate to them. And you start separating. We didn't have cell phones. You didn't have texting. So you start naturally separation from your friends that way. The ground war had the buildup had started. So everybody's watching the news for Desert Storm. You know, this is 90. So I go to the high school basketball game to try and that's what I know.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  And I remember them playing the National Anthem and I go right to attention and I'm strapped and the flag's there. And I just remember everybody talking and I remember just burning inside.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  And now I can look back and understand it, but I remember right then like, like I need to get out. I need, I'm in the army. I need to get out of here. I need to go serve. And I knew I was learning the army values. So that 16 weeks of basic training and serving your country and a bigger cause, like was starting in my blood right then and I felt it. Yeah. And I need to put myself in a position to do something. So I went home. I was like, hey, I'm joining active duty. And I'm going to serve my country.

• 14:23Jocko Willink?

  And was it, was it hard to transition over to active duty?

• 14:26Speaker 01

  No, not at all. No, because I thought active duty was basic training. I thought I was going to drill sergeant. Like I showed up in California, Fort Worth, Monterey, California. And I remember asking, I'm like, where's the drill sergeant? They're like, what? Ain't no drill sergeant here.

• 14:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That's what you think the whole military is like. Wow. Yeah. So this book, just a little bit about this book. This book really is. Even though I started with like this first chapter where you're talking about how you grew up and stuff. The book isn't, it's not like a chronologicaling of your whole life. It's not a autobiography or anything. It's more some of the highlights that I'll hit some of them. Um, that, that where you learned big lessons, right? Uh, and, and the name of the book, as I mentioned, is Chop That Shit Up. And so this comes from, uh, you are now, and where were you? What, what was your job at this point?

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this is four door, California, my first duty station. I've just gone active duty and I'm a private and know nothing about life, the army.

• 15:35Jocko Willink?

  And you guys are getting an inspection.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Correct. You know, so this is the army in the nineties where they inspect your rooms every day. You have to clean everything and our platoon was responsible for the latrine. And remember this is, you know, shower heads, you know, six to 10 shower heads, 10 toilets, sinks, whatever, you know, open bay, you didn't have your individual bathrooms. Uh, and our platoon is responsible for cleaning that common area. It's great.

• 16:04Jocko Willink?

  And, and it sounds like you're, um, you're, you're very motivated at this point. Like you're into the game and you kind of take charge of cleaning the heads, cleaning the, cleaning the bathroom. And you say in the book here, so you go to, you, you're looking at the, um, the first sergeant, you know, he's kind of on his way. And the, in the first stall toilet, um, you say this, we were staring at the biggest turd I'd ever seen in my life. Whoever deposited this monster needed to see a doctor to get their butthole fixed because it had to be tore up. I can't do this turd justice. It was so big, it was just sitting at the bottom of the toilet bowl and it could easily touch each side of the rim. It was longer than an M7 bayonet, if that helps.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I'll, I'll help the, the crew out here.

• 16:54Jocko Willink?

  Uh, pinion, this is yours to fix. My gunner ordered me as we heard first sergeant, this is the guy that's coming to, um, inspect you. As we heard first sergeant slowly progressing from the stairwell to the NCO latrine at the end of the hall.

• 17:07Jocko Willink?

  Only the hallway left and then us. It would take minutes at least to fix this. So you start to flush the flush it. You flush it again and the turds not going anywhere. And finally, you come up with a plan, which is just lock the door, the stall door from the inside, crawl out from underneath and you'll talk your way out of it. And so that's exactly what you do. And then here's here comes the first sergeant. First sergeant was six, three broad shouldered man with an airstrip style, flat top haircut. He was drafted in the army during Vietnam and proudly displayed his draft letter on the wall behind his desk. A Huey door gunner in Vietnam. He claimed he had been shot down three times during combat. He looked like he could kill you by looking at you.

• 17:51Jocko Willink?

  Good morning, First Sergeant. Welcome to our fine dining establishment. So clean you can eat off the floor. My bullshit mode was in full gear this morning. Shut up, Pinion. Get out of my way. Everyone has failed so far and I don't see you bucking the trend. We were screwed. At ease, I yelled, and everyone inside the latrine snapped to parade rest. This is to indicate respect when an NCO is the senior person entering the room. Carry on, troopers, he commanded under his breath. First Sergeant immediately moved towards the first stall, as was his routine. Why is the door shut? Who thinks it's okay to take a dump during my inspection? Pinch it off and get out of the stall, trooper. First Sergeant, it's empty, I calmly stated over my right shoulder while stationed at the door's

• 18:36Jocko Willink?

  entrance. It's broken.

• 18:39Jocko Willink?

  What's the matter with it? First Sergeant asked. And here I made a mistake. I had yet to learn that the First Sergeant was responsible for maintenance and work orders for the buildings in our unit. This was about to get ugly. It won't flush, First Sergeant, I hesitantly responded. Open it up, Pinion.

• 18:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh no, here we go. I crawled back under the stall wall and glanced at our enemy. He was still there with a hint of a smile forming. You son of a bitch. If any, if I saw any soldier walking like his butt hurt, I was going to kick it for this. I unlocked the door as it swung open. I held the door against the stall wall with my back and stood at parade rest with the first sergeant on my left and the toilet on my right. Holy shit, the first sergeant screamed as a few soldiers behind him giggled. Roger that, first sergeant, I said defeatedly. First sergeant squeezed into the stall next to me at parade rest and him staring at the most giant shit in the history of soldier turds.

• 19:43Jocko Willink?

  He reached over and flushed the handle. Nothing. The big smiling turd refer refused to move. First sergeant turned his cold eyes toward me. You know what you have to do, pinion? No, first sergeant. First sergeant held his right hand in front of my face and formed the famous knife hand used by every NCO and drill sergeant during their career. Also used in a karate chop. First sergeant took his hand from my face, turned toward the toilet and still looking me dead in the eyes, chopped his hand in the toilet. You have to chop that shit up, he said confidently. The other soldiers in the latrine were gagging or full out laughing now.

• 20:24Jocko Willink?

  I was in shock, but still at parade rest, refusing to look at the hand to hand combat taking place in the toilet. First sergeant stared at me the whole time. He finally lifted his hand from the destruction, reached over and hit the toilet handle. The most beautiful sound of swirling perfection took place and the itsy bitsy chopped into a thousand pieces turd drained away. The first sergeant straightened up and stared into my eyes again. Pinion, this is a life lesson here today. During your career, you will hit many obstacles that won't go away on the first try. When that happens, you can give up and walk away or simply roll up your sleeve and chop that shit up. Understand?

• 21:06Jocko Willink?

  Yes, first sergeant, I replied as first sergeant wiped his combat proven hand on my left arm and shoulder. After his hand was clean, first sergeant winked, left the latrine and said we had passed the inspection.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  I can see it like it was yesterday.

• 21:27Jocko Willink?

  So he wiped his freaking hand on you too?

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Now, yeah, now just look, he's like this.

• 21:33Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  And gets done and then is wiping like this.

• 21:39Jocko Willink?

  But that mentality is real though, isn't it? Got a problem, what are you gonna do?

• 21:43Speaker 01

  I mean, there's many metaphors and obviously, I mean, I lived this. And what a lesson to learn and I was almost 19. I mean, some people say, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. It's the same metaphor and this is this and I have used that mentality. My entire life since that. I was just doing something, a task two weeks ago and I was chopping it up. Same thing. And that's how I look at all obstacles in life. And that first horn taught me that at 19 and I would not have been successful in my military career without that lesson.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  And that toilet and that visualization that I've carried the rest of my life. And now you have it.

• 22:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, now we all have that lovely visualization. That's awesome. Fast forward a little bit, in October 1992, I reported to Freiburg, Germany, where I was assigned to a reconnaissance scout platoon in 4th Battalion 67th Armored Regiment. This was very different from my job at Fort Ord, where I was genuinely light and served as division reconnaissance for 7th Infantry Division. Here I would learn to complement heavy units and tanks. So this is your, how did you like when you get to Germany when you show up there?

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Well, I loved it, you know, one, I came away with a German wife. So for 30 years, it worked out perfect.

• 23:04Jocko Willink?

  So it's a win?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Yes. And two, I've been fortunate, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about, but I've been fortunate as a 19 Delta Cavalry Scout. I have been blessed to been light, heavy. Helicopters, Bradleys, Humvees, you know, I've seen the realm of what reconnaissance can do. So I wasn't just funneled in one area or became special in one area. I've seen the 360 of our job. Uh, so I was fortunate in that knowledge space. Uh, heavy special, it's different.

• 23:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was, it was interesting from my perspective. So for us, when I grew up in the SEAL teams and uh, for us reconnaissance meant there's only one thing. When I thought of reconnaissance, I only thought of one thing. And that was a small, very small group of guys, foot patrolling somewhere, very clandestine. And basically you're like hiding and you're, you're not going to be seen. And I, I remember the first time it was actually with the, the 137 and we were talking about, we were going into South Central Ramadi. And they're like, yeah, we're going to do an armored reconnaissance. And I was kind of like, huh. I mean, I, I knew what, I, I knew what it was just by the name, but I was like, that's a totally different viewpoint. Armored reconnaissance means we're going to drive tanks down there and look around and see what's going on. And it was very different from my idea.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Correct. And what I liked about, you know, the same thing. So I was in Freeburg supporting basically 137 or tank battalions is same thing. You're light, you're on foot and you're going deep, but you're really exploring, how can I effectively help armored battalions maneuver to effectively engage the enemy? So what are their axis of attacks that I can recon for them to set them in the best position to attack the enemy? And defeat the enemy. And then what information can I give them in effect or artillery? How can I affect the battle using artillery? So it

• 25:04Jocko Willink?

  So are they training you to look for, oh, here's a pro, this, this kind of terrain is a problem for tanks. This is a good, this is what they're training you for.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So whether it's a route reconnaissance or area reconnaissance or zone reconnaissance, where we're looking at three to five kilometers wide, going 10 to 15 kilometers deep as one platoon. And then looking at the entire terrain of how we can maneuver the battalion or the brigade behind us to come up to the enemy.

• 25:32Jocko Willink?

  And this is, uh, I guess this is kind of after. The Cold War, right? Because of the walls down in the 90s. And so you're, but you guys, I'm sure still had like this vision of fighting the Russians.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Oh, you're absolutely fighting the Russian threat. So the three by three by three and yeah, you're absolutely.

• 25:52Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Um, fast forward a little bit, and again, get the book. The book is, it's got so many, so many details I'm not going to cover and read some, some high, high points of it, but the book is just, it's such a, it, you, the way you wrote it, it's like listening to somebody tell a really good long story. So get the book. Uh, fast forward a little bit. That year was a good one. And we would end it with a bang in July. I'd married my German wife. And we spent three weeks of our honeymoon traveling to see family in New Jersey and Florida. Our scout platoon was the best in Germany for the second straight year, and I had re-enlisted to spend six more years in the army. With a picture of Elvis as the backdrop as he has been, he had been stationed in Freeburg. The army gave me a wife and a rent free place to live, which is the housing area.

• 26:36Jocko Willink?

  And my leaders lived down the street. Life was good. It's like, perfect.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Can't go wrong.

• 26:42Jocko Willink?

  Living the dream. Uh, fast forward a little bit. On December, oh, one, the first of December, 1994, a Thursday, I was officially promoted to sergeant by our battalion commander. So you're, you're making rank too.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct.

• 26:54Jocko Willink?

  Focused, working hard. Um, fast forward. Now we're getting to 1995. In, in fall of 1995, the former Yugoslavian country of Bosnia, Herzegovina, was out of control with three Bosnian groups fighting each other. The Dayton Peace Accord was drafted and implemented to stop the war and ensure peace. Our unit would be deployed with the mission to enforce the accord and allow people to put their war torn, war torn country back together again. So this is like, uh, in the 90s, you're about to do something real, which is,

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, this would be my first major deployment coming up.

• 27:28Jocko Willink?

  Uh, fast forward a little bit. We were nervous, but this was supposed to be a peacekeeping mission. The only threat discussed was thousands of mines in the country. Our maps were littered with, littered with red dots and one red dot represented between one and a thousand mines in that area. That's real.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a kind of widespread number there.

• 27:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we don't really appreciate that kind of intel.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  One dot, one dot.

• 27:52Jocko Willink?

  Uh, fast forward. We flew Sunday night and executing the landing was pretty cool. The air crew had us mount the vehicles. So we were all in position when we landed. When we landed, the ramp lowered, the crews unleashed the tie downs and we drove off. Within a few minutes, the plane was empty and turning around to take off again. That's how, you had to be pumped. How old were you at this point? 24?

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, if that, if that. Yeah, I was a sergeant leading my first crew of men. Yeah, and I was gonna get the mission to lead us up north to the Sapa River to secure it so everybody can come across, so.

• 28:26Jocko Willink?

  Uh, you say this. Now, in our scout platoon, we had 10 Humvee vehicles typically with three soldiers per crew, but we were never manned 100%. So we had to get some soldiers from another unit to fill us out. The lead scout is the senior staff sergeant in the platoon and he led us everywhere. This person generally has the most knowledgeable, was generally the most knowledgeable, but not in our platoon. Staff Sergeant Heap was the most knowledgeable and although junior rank in, junior in the rank of sergeant, I, quite frankly, was better scout than the other squad leaders. Together, my staff sergeant and I were a dynamic duo with great soldiers underneath us. Our lead scout was smart but quirky and absolutely could not handle stress. This was how he became known as Shaky Jake. Uh, fast forward a little bit.

• 29:10Jocko Willink?

  We eventually completed our mission to secure the south side, found and established a base camp, Camp Colt, escorted our battalion teammates down to Bosnia and helped find and mark too many minefields to be comfortable with. It was draining. No showers either. We would heat a 50 cal ammo can full of water on our potbelly stoves and clean ourselves with a washcloth. It was cold with about two to three feet of snow on the ground, which made mine detecting especially fun. Basically, it sucked. The stress was building and tempers grew short. Once a battalion was established at Camp Colt, they started implementing standard procedures for maintenance. We had grown accustomed to doing our own thing for the last month and a half,

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  but now we would need to inspect our vehicles and request them to be dispatched for missions every seven days. This is a horrible idea because we could be out on a mission for seven to 10 days without warning. So it's basically you're getting put some admin requirements on top of you guys.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 30:09Jocko Willink?

  While you're in the field.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  And as I wrote it, I tried to write it as my mentality at that time. You know, as you look back as a leader, there's lessons learned. But I tried to write as, you know, that's me cocky young man.

• 30:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Coming up. But yes.

• 30:26Jocko Willink?

  Well, I forget who I originally learned this from, but I would say this all the time, you know, the, the next echelon above us doesn't understand anything, which is a very common attitude to have. And if you can remember that that's the common attitude is like, the people above us don't understand what's happening. Then you go, oh, wait, that's actually me. That's actually my problem. I don't understand what's happening.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct, correct.

• 30:48Jocko Willink?

  Shaky Jake didn't like it, frustrated the crap out of him. During one down day with no scheduled missions, we started our dispatch procedures. The vehicles and maintenance tents were located on the flight line. And I just finished a mission brief for the following day and was heading to join my team. As I approached the maintenance tent, two or three soldiers jumped through the flaps. I heard screaming from inside and being the idiot that I am, ran into the tent just in time. Shaky Jake was screaming at the maintenance sergeant, a master sergeant, E8, and someone very senior to Jake. Shaky Jake had his back turned to me. I will fucking do it, yelled Jake. Fucking pull the pin, the maintenance sergeant yelled back. What the hell is going on?

• 31:30Jocko Willink?

  As I came around Jake, I saw him holding an M67 fragmentation grenade. One hand was cupping the grenade and spoon and a finger from his other hand was wrapped around the pull pin. The maintenance sergeant had both hands around Jake's. I did what any dumb person would do and put my hands on top of theirs. So now the grenade was covered by six hands and I yelled, everybody fucking calm down.

• 31:55Jocko Willink?

  I'd either startled them or found a commanding voice I didn't know I had, but they immediately stopped screaming and looked at me, three of us face to face, holding a grenade. Master Sergeant, please release your hands. Staff Sergeant, please let go of the pull pin gently. Give me the grenade and both of you step back, I ordered.

• 32:13Jocko Willink?

  They listened and I secured the grenade. As soon as I had the grenade, I left the tent yelling some nonsense instruction to the soldiers gathering to see what the commotion was. I range walked, speed walked to our platoon tents where I found the platoon sergeant and the platoon leader. Shaky Jake lost his mind and pulled a grenade on the maintenance guy, I stammered. Where's the grenade? The platoon leader demanded as he jumped up from his cot. Right here in my hand, sir. Freaking crazy little scenario.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  No, I mean, yeah. What do you do? And it's, I said, these are a hundred percent. What do you do in those situations? And you come around and you see it like this. And next you know, I'm like that. And that mass aren't, wasn't playing around. And I'm looking, I'll say Jake, I'm looking at Jake. And I didn't understand what stress this does to a person. You know, you can look back now and understand the situations we are in, you know, a few months into it. Like I said, no showers, barely any power, you know, you're mind sweeping, three feet of snow looking for mines and you're, we're marking the minefields. You

• 33:25Speaker 01

  know what it does? You don't know about finance problems, marriage problems, none of that. I don't know the minds of people at that time. And then, six of us with hands on a grenade.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  What do you do? And I was a young Sergeant E5, promotable to a staff sergeant E6 and a mass sergeant E8. And I had no idea. All I said, you know, you read it, get your hands off. And then next thing I know, I had the grenade. And then I didn't even check to make sure the pins were in or the clip was on. Next thing I know, I'm taking a grenade and just holding on to the spoon, you know. So it was, it was a bad situation. But, you know, I didn't understand stress at that time, what it does to a person.

• 34:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And that's kind of the, the big lessons that you learn there. Because this guy, you know, he was sent to mental health for a few days, which is called behavior, behavioral health now. But no investigation, no sworn statements, nothing. And a few days later, he comes back and basically everyone acts like it didn't happen. And what you say is stress is hard and it's essential to know your soldiers personally and professionally. We knew Jake stressed easily, but we only tried to help him after significant incident during deployment. I also learned that during deployment, that when the situation became stressful, it was up to me to calm things down. I learned to call people by their first names when the shit hit the fan.

• 34:54Jocko Willink?

  It put them at ease and helped them focus on talking to me. That's a really good point. It's a really good point. It, you know, you're used to calling someone lieutenant or sergeant or whatever the case may be. And all of a sudden you say, hey Fred, listen to me right now. That's a, that's a really good point.

• 35:11Jocko Willink?

  You say in later positions, I use these lessons to show my soldiers, it was okay to have problems and acknowledge them. I was the first to make routine appointments with behavioral, behavioral health. And I made sure my soldiers knew and saw, and more importantly, joined me. I also ensured that we never again did seven day dispatches in the field or on deployment, 30 dispatches always.

• 35:34Jocko Willink?

  So you're learning lessons.

• 35:38Jocko Willink?

  Where, on September 11th, where were you?

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was a drill sergeant once. So I was at Fort Knox. I was a drill sergeant. But I was, September 11th, my wife and I were actually on vacation or on leave in Germany.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  We flew space A.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  So I was getting ready to come off the trail. So my tour was ending.

• 36:01Jocko Willink?

  Your tour as a drill sergeant?

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Was coming to an end.

• 36:03Jocko Willink?

  Would, would, as a, as a drill sergeant, how'd you like being a drill sergeant?

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Loved it.

• 36:08Jocko Willink?

  And what, to me, it seems like you are going to get to understand human beings.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 36:14Jocko Willink?

  At a higher level, being a drill sergeant.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  So I was fortunate to be selected for the next higher rank and drill sergeant within a two week period. So technically it was gonna put me behind sort of like my platoon sergeant timeline, but I was such a better platoon sergeant preparedness wise by being a drill sergeant first. Uh, and it definitely helped me later. Now, I'm not saying I was a good platoon sergeant, you know, the time will tell what people thought of me. Uh, but I was better prepared because of drill sergeant and you were absolutely correct. The way like even say, like I said, I like an average life growing up. I don't know if that's true. How many people actually had two parents, house, woods, learned to fish, hunt, like had siblings and cousins around them and had mentors.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Like I was probably way above average. Uh, and you don't see that until you see all these different cultures come together and you teach them how to be teammates. Uh, just like when I taught ROTC and teaching college kids how to be officers. Like I got, I got to see different spectrums of stuff in life in my career. So being a drill sergeant was one of the highlights, but I was overseas when September 11th actually happened and I start calling like, hey, do you need me to report to this base? Can I fly home? Uh, it was, it was hard times.

• 37:35Jocko Willink?

  It's a, where, where did you, where did you go next?

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Uh, after September, after drill sergeant.

• 37:40Jocko Willink?

  After drill sergeant, you're overseas. Were you like on a, on like a wrapping up your tour as a drill sergeant leave type thing?

• 37:46Speaker 01

  No. So I was, my wife, uh, because she was German, had hiatus from her job. So she was entering her three years. So she was, we were trying to go back to Germany. So we were actually back in Germany looking for housing and I was working with Branch, trying to get assignment back to Germany and we're visiting her parents. Um, and we're coming up and I was, I basically told Branch, I said, I really would like to go to Germany because my wife's going back there with or without me. Uh, and that's where they're like, hey, you can go to Ranger School or Pathfinder. If you go to Ranger School, I'm not sure I can get you Germany. If you go to Pathfinder, you can go to Germany. I said, well, I guess I'm going Pathfinder.

• 38:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  And I went Pathfinder and got Germany.

• 38:31Jocko Willink?

  When September 11th happened, you know, when I saw it happening, obviously I knew there was going to be a response, but in no part of my brain did I think we were about to start 20 years of war. What were you thinking?

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I honestly, yeah, I don't know if I thought 20 years either. I didn't, I didn't know who was absolutely responsible. I can't say even my focus was on that. I think my focus was making sure there's prepared for whatever was about to come. And I knew Afghanistan, when we first were going into Afghanistan, and then they were talking Iraq, and I was a platoon sergeant now. My sole focus was making sure our platoon was prepared for whatever we were getting, getting ready to go to, whatever that, and it was just making sure we were trained.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  And we had a troop commander that just pushed us in training, and that's what we, I just focused on that, not length, not where, not what, just our jobs were ready for whatever we're, or wherever we're going.

• 39:39Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of training, I'm going to fast forward a little bit in the book. You guys are preparing to go out in the field for some training. You say, "It was an alert to go in the field. 100% accountability by 0400, order brief at 0500, and roll out to the field by 0800. About 15 minutes before the mission brief, I heard the first sergeant yelling for me to get to the commander's office. I thought nothing of it, maybe just wanted an update to see how fast we could move. After the mission brief, I was wrong. What do you know about such and such whorehouse?" demanded the commander. The second platoon sergeant, whom I admired deeply, was there as well. A deep-rooted, military, family and traditions type of soldier, also extremely competent. "Never heard of it, sir.

• 40:23Jocko Willink?

  I am married," I sarcastically replied. But I really had never heard of it. Well, Staff Sergeant Michaels from Second Platoon is apparently there, and I need you two to go retrieve him, he ordered. I looked at my battle buddy, and then at the First Sergeant, all of us wearing shit eating grins because this might turn out to be fun. Roger that, sir. So, you say you probably selected for this mission because you spoke German. You figure out where this place is, and you show up at this brothel, and you say, "We had entered another dimension. A vast living room with humongous cathedral ceilings, a beautiful staircase in the middle led to the rooms above. Couches, tables, and chairs were

• 41:05Jocko Willink?

  spread throughout like it was a spa. In the, in one corner of the room was a buffet of drinks and fresh fruit for breakfast. In the other corner sat a mini weight set to work out on, and we saw an enclosed glass area with a small pool and hot tub. This place was the ultimate man cave. Lots of TVs and music played at zero 600 in the morning. To top it off, three, three or four men were lounging around wearing nothing but towels with girls sitting beside them."

• 41:35Speaker 01

  If you've been, I'm sure people have been overseas or other places, they, they can relate to this 100, maybe, maybe not.

• 41:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it's legal there. That's the thing. It's prostitution is legal in German. So, or at least that's what you said in the book.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, in that time, yes. I think it still is.

• 41:52Jocko Willink?

  Trying not to stare because some of the women were completely naked. We hurried up the stairs, opened the doors one by one. On the second floor, we found our guy knocked out between two beautiful Asian women who woke as we entered. Get your ass up and let's go, fuck stick. We're go, we're going in the field in two hours. You guys rushed downstairs. He gets dressed. And then, this is what I just had to read this section because of this. As we were leaving, I saw it. On the wall just before the exit was a certificate of appreciation. A certificate of appreciation is a military document printed on behalf of a command or unit and given to businesses, restaurants that support our soldiers. It is always signed by the unit's commanders and senior enlisted leader. For us, that would be our captain and First Sergeant.

• 42:36Jocko Willink?

  This certificate on the wall caught my eye because it had our unit crest, which was a dead giveaway. I don't remember the exact words, but it read something like "for meritorious support of our American soldiers and their needs. Your professionalism, skilled techniques, and utmost care of us helped maintain morale and well-being of our soldiers, etc., etc." This is hanging on the wall. The certificate was signed "Your Grateful Soldier" instead of "Our Unit Commander", and it had the whorehouse name in bold letters in the middle. It was professional-looking and surrounded by similar certificates, units' coins, and patches. "I'm taking this," I shouted as we marched out the door, as we marched out the door. That's it. You guys go on the mission. Everything goes smooth. And here's a little bit of, here's the lesson you learned here.

• 43:21Jocko Willink?

  "Before being released for the weekend, our commander and first sergeant held a meeting, and the captain issued a new policy letter outlining off-limits establishments. Of course, the whorehouse was at the top of the list, along with many other establishments. We never had a whore, an issue with the whorehouse again. You guys had a little dining-in ceremony, which is like a party, and you presented our commander with our certificate of appreciation that he had unknowingly provided to a whorehouse. It was a great overall laugh, but I learned several lessons from it. First, accountability is essential. This would help me teach my leaders later when I served as Command Sergeant Major. When someone fails to show up to work, we don't simply wait and assume everything is okay. We find them. That is genuine care.

• 44:04Jocko Willink?

  Even if they merely overslept, we always care for our soldiers." The second lesson is about policy letters. Every stupid policy letter is written because soldiers messed up too many times. If everyone did the right thing, there would be no need to explain it in detail. From that moment forward, I scrutinize policy letters from a different perspective. What is the policy's actual purpose? How will it be enforced? Is there a systemic issue that needs to be addressed? And how will you implement it if you write it? Sometimes commanders go crazy with policy letters and use them as punishment. Lastly, do you, as a leader and soldier, actually read and understand the policy letters? So.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, what's funny is after this book came out, one of my buddies, you know, read it. We, we came up in our careers together and either I followed him, he followed me. He called me, he's like, bro, I'm the one who presented that certificate to the warehouse.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  He's like, he's like, I gave it to him. I was like, I figure, I figure it'd be you.

• 45:06Jocko Willink?

  Now, again, we're gonna fast forward here. You end up, you're on your first deployment to Iraq. You're, you're doing missions. This, this one here, I'm gonna talk about in the spring of 2003, our unit deployed to Iraq, smack dab in the middle of Baghdad. We're doing an HVT raid on a terrorist cell, working with the British SAS. Special Operations Team didn't have enough people to conduct the raid, so we would run the raid for them, secure the prisoners and houses, and then they would come in and grab all the intelligence, etc. When you combine different organizations, you call yourself a task force. So you're, you know, they didn't have enough people. You gotta hit a target.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  And I think this becomes common, you know, especially as you know, if you're doing inter-court on, outer court on, the actual raid, sensitive site exploration, all that, you know, SSI, all that good stuff. Sometimes you just don't have the people, especially specialized units, so you use us or some other people to help, so.

• 45:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and that next level of that for us in Ramadi was like, here, we, we would get intel from somewhere and we, there'd be a target to hit in somewhere, you know, in downtown Ramadi, and we could brief, get our Iraqi troops, load up our Humvees, drive down there, drive to the, the COP, foot patrol out from the COP, and all that took, you know, eight, 12 hours to get all that done, because we have to get permissions to take our Iraqi soldiers. Like, this is a bunch of stuff we, or I could call Mike Byman and say, hey, go hit building 28 and look for this guy. And he'd be like, cool, I'll be back in 20 minutes.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct.

• 46:30Jocko Willink?

  And it was just like, awesome. But that's, that's at another time, a little bit more in the future. For this one, you guys kind of go through a planning cycle with the SAS. You're gonna go out and hit this target.

• 46:42Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit, the time finally came, you guys reached the checkpoint, 0200. The platoons reached their positions, you guys set off your explosive charges. So boom boom, the explosions were near simultaneous and it was beautiful. Ears ringing, the assault teams moved. We had put too much explosives on the guest house door, blowing the entire thing off the frame and making it easy for our teams to enter. Within seconds, our assault team had a man, woman, and child in custody and brought them around the corner to put behind the guest house. Two terrorists came out the back door, one of them with a weapon. The selector switch on my rifle went from safe to semi and I laid my sights on his forehead because there was an old car in between him and me. I should have shot differently, but I aimed for his head.

• 47:28Jocko Willink?

  It would be the first, but definitely not the last time I squeezed my trigger with the intent to kill. I fired one shot and grazed the side of his head. And my staff sergeant at the enemy on the left directly after. We both missed, or sorry, my staff sergeant fired at the enemy on the left directly after. We both missed. But it worked out because the enemy dropped their weapons and raised their hands. Meanwhile, inside the main house, we heard room clear, room clear. Within two minutes, they had everyone moving into the garden between the houses and then on their knees. And that's when we learned that Iraqi walls are made differently than American or European walls. "You guys almost shot me," said one cult leader.

• 48:11Jocko Willink?

  The tracer round I had fired, the first round to guide everyone to where I was shooting, nicked my target, traveled through two walls and passed the other assault team. That near miss made us rethink where and how we position people for future raids. With the site secure and the intercorden set, we brought in the special operations team who conducted their sensitive site exploitation. We secured nine terrorists, three HVTs and a crap load of weapons to boot. It was an extremely successful mission. After returning, the special operations team by team came by and shook every one of our soldiers hands and said that was one of the best executed raids they'd seen. It would also lead to many more dangerous missions, but we had confidence and experience to execute them all.

• 48:55Jocko Willink?

  The biggest lesson I learned this time was about not missing my target when I shot. I will never forget that moment. I didn't regret trying to kill someone. I regretted missing and I made sure my soldiers and I never missed again. When you only had three to five seconds to engage an enemy when ambushed, if you missed, they ran away. But if you hit them, they had to stay in fight and we now owned the ambush and could kill the enemy. Ask any of the soldiers I led after this mission and they will tell you I put emphasis on marksmanship and shooting. We never missed again. That's the shooting part and then the understanding what your backdrop is.

• 49:37Jocko Willink?

  And if you miss, you could be hitting your own guys, which is something that a lot of times, you know, that doesn't really happen in the movies, you know, where you don't think about what your backdrops are. I think I learned this when in the, in the nineties, we had one of the main kill houses that we used. When I was at SEAL Team One was made of just literally plywood. And so you had to set up your whole assault to, to not have anyone down range because we didn't, we didn't have, we didn't have bullet traps at this time. Like we would just shoot paper targets or you know, cardboard silhouettes that are in a house. So you had to kind of figure out the geometry of the whole thing to make sure that you

• 50:20Jocko Willink?

  weren't gonna shoot your own guys. And that's something that you don't think about a lot.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  I mean, I put no thought of rounds going through the outer exterior of an Iraqi house until that point. Not at all. That totally changed our thought process, you know, especially as we're thinking about like inner corridor. And until they said they saw the tracer go through the exterior wall and two interior walls. And then like I said, I,

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Taking lives or pulling a trigger against an enemy, I will never regret if that's what we're asked to do. And we saw in Ramadias, we'll talk, when you're getting side street ambushes or from rooftop or a window, and you know you only have a split second to see it, react and engage before they run away or hide or circle a different direction. You only get one shot, and if you miss, you're not going to get a second chance until later. But if you hit them, it's on. And I will take my chances every day when it's on. So

• 51:37Speaker 01

  we, we emphasize shooting nonstop. I mean, we zeroed on a one inch square at 100 meters. I mean, that was our zero from that point on. And it was five out of six at 100 meters, one inch square, black square. And if you weren't in that, it didn't count.

• 51:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the marksmanship is a real thing. Got to be good.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 52:04Jocko Willink?

  This was kind of a story here that I, it just shows you how awesome our soldiers are. You say, when our new brigade commander came in, our mission immediately changed. We would now split up our assignments. One platoon would escort the brigade to meet the brigade command team around while the other conducted IED route clearance missions around headquarters. No more raids and finding bad guys. We became a taxi service and circled the headquarters looking for explosives. That's a, that's a significant mission change.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  It is. And he says, so you're talking 2003, you're right behind the main push. I mean, they're going from dropping grenades and taking Baghdad International Airport, third ID, and we're right behind them. And our mission was find bad guys. And like you were talking about earlier, you know, we basically had the whole brigade footprint and we could go to all the battalions and say, hey, we want to operate in your sector for a week. What would you like us to do for you or how can we help you? So we knew the entire east Baghdad footprint and could help all the battalions and like, hey, we would love you to do this. And that's what we did. We found bad guys and it was awesome.

• 53:15Jocko Willink?

  What months was this?

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Uh, this would be, what was this, May 03, uh, to basically probably, yeah, October 03, uh, when it first started or that that time period.

• 53:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So this is like Wild West activities.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct. And again, the enemy isn't really, they're learning IEDs at that time. So they're dropping grenades. Um, yeah, they're learning and then they lifted stop loss and commanders started switching out. Uh, and then we went to, hey, route clearance. But I mean, we didn't even have doors on Humvees and we had no up armor. I mean, we had the Vietnam flak jackets on floorboards with sandbags. And again, I'm six, three and my knees are in my chest, uh, from the sandbags and flak jackets, uh, trying to protect us. And they're like, hey, go find IEDs. And this is Baghdad with the wires and everywhere is command detonating wires at best.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  I mean, it's just trash and you didn't have the vehicles to, and we're driving around in circles.

• 54:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we had, uh, we had the same thing unarmed Humvees. We had the camp, like literal actual canvas doors.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:29Jocko Willink?

  You know, like, and so we, what we did was we popped those doors off completely. And we turned our seats so that they faced outboard.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:38Jocko Willink?

  And so then, so then at least we'd be presenting the plate of our body armor. And it was also, it felt better because now you're just looking, you're looking out instead of having to look over your shoulder, you're looking out and scanning for targets, which felt a lot better than sitting there trying to look over your shoulder with your weapon kind of canted. Uh, so that's what you guys end up doing. Um. You're getting replacement soldiers too, or new soldiers. Uh, one of those soldiers was Private David Cantor from California. Love him. And so you're out on a clearance mission. This guy's a new guy. And you come up against a, a suspected IED. And you call EOD, EOD shows up and when EOD shows up, they're like, okay, cool. Yep.

• 55:21Jocko Willink?

  We think it's an IED. So they're going to send their robot down. So they got a robot and they're going to put a water charge on it and blast that thing in place, which is a great thing to do, not put any lives at risk. So you say this, as the robot backed away, so that's what they do. EOD shows up, they send the robot down and as, and then you say this, as the robot backed away to turn around, either it got stuck or the transmitter stopped working. We watched and waited and finally got impatient and I asked the EOD leader, what was the matter? The robot is stuck. We need to go down there and get it. Crap, here we go, I thought. I turned and saw the other EOD soldier putting on his bomb suit. I started calculating whether we needed to expand our perimeter to look for bad guys in case this was a command detonated or someone was waiting for the EOD soldiers to get close enough.

• 56:05Jocko Willink?

  I called the leaders over and we mapped out two areas we would push to ensure no one was watching or waiting for us. I spited, I spotted Private Candor edged, edged, Cantor edging closer to us as we talked and decided to fuck with him in combat, in a stressful situation. Welcome to the army. Cantor, come here, private. We need help. The robot is stuck and we need you to go get it, I ordered. Cantor went ghost white, which was the reaction I expected. For someone with Colombian blood, he looked positively Caucasian at that moment. Cantor hadn't seen the soldier in the bomb suit yet. He looked at the robot, then at me and very nervously said, Roger that sergeant, and turned toward the robot. I was utterly amazed.

• 56:47Jocko Willink?

  He didn't really know us yet or trust us, and this was his first experience with an explosive device. Yet he thought it was his duty to go down there and that's what he planned to do. We immediately stopped him, of course, and laughed our asses off. You could see the blood rush back to Cantor's body after a massive look of relief came over his face. It was a golden moment.

• 57:10Jocko Willink?

  That's to me, just an epic story. Like you got a guy, hey, we need to go and just risk your life to go grab this robot. And he's like, yep, Roger that.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, one. So one, I'm gonna meet Cantor tonight after this. So it's amazing. And then Cantor becomes a sniper and does amazing stuff for us in Ramadi. Again, he worked with Chris Kyle and stuff. I mean, Cantor saved lives when we talked Dietrich here. But new private replacement grows up, brothers in a gang from the streets here in California and serves his country. And we ask him to do something. And he's like, Roger that scared. And he does it. And that's just one of many of a few soldiers. Yeah, he's absolutely amazing. And we messing with a kid in combat. And then, but that's, you know, that's, I bet you all militaries like

• 58:05Speaker 01

  that. I'm sure somebody's like, oh, that's horrendous. That's the military.

• 58:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's horrendous. It's horrendous and really funny.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  And it's true. Yes.

• 58:18Jocko Willink?

  And there's another cool story you write about Cantor in here. He ends up getting in trouble at some point and like going AWOL for a little bit. And you call him up, you talk to him. And when you, you know, you hey, look, you got to come back, get back here. And when he gets back, you, you, you punish him. You know, you say, we rip off his rank and, and demote him to private. But if you check his official paperwork, there won't be anything. Because as far as anyone's new. So you did a little paperwork shuffle.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  I mean, there is no paperwork.

• 58:49Jocko Willink?

  Exactly.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, rank came off his chest and rank went back on his chest. He, he graduated sniper school. There was a situation back with his family back here in California. And he went back to take care of it instead of coming right back to Germany to our final train up to come back to Iraq. He was scared. He didn't know what to do because his other buddy who graduated sniper school came right back to Germany. And I was like, hey, where's Cantor? And then he got scared. And then when I got a hold of him on the phone, and I was first name, David. I need you to come home. Everything will be all right. I need you to get your ass back here. Uh, we'll take care of it. And there had to be punishment, but it was visual.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  I knew what he was doing and I knew the reasons he was doing it.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Sometimes you get, and I wouldn't be where I was if leaders hadn't done stuff for me.

• 59:49Jocko Willink?

  You, you end up, uh, you get hurt. You get blown up, right? On that deployment?

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Uh, the first one.

• 59:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What, what happened there?

• 59:56Speaker 01

  So, and thankfully, again, thankfully it's 2003 and not later. As we were talking about, they were learning. Different stuff. So we were escorting the Brigade Command Sergeant Major, wonderful man. Who later died, uh, Christmas Eve. And we were just coming down Route Pluto on the east side by Solder City. And, uh, and IED exploded.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  But it was more of a grape charge, you know, where they're packing all the charges, like shaped charge, as you know. And it hit us, uh, demolished the vehicle. And I think there might be pictures. If not, I have them. Thankfully, we were okay. Uh, later found out I was not okay when they, uh.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  We responded, but again, we're talking about like calm under fire. And I called the reports on the one good radio. The other radio was shot to hell. Uh, the whole left side was peppered, all the tires were flat, antennas were gone. And we responded. Uh, I remember I had the Ops Sergeant Major behind me, E9. And he was like, what do I do? And we started, we actually opened the doors, got out and started pull cover while the other vehicle was coming around to search. And he wouldn't get out of the vehicle. I was like, get out, pull cover.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  And I called the report and I was like, three, uh, WIAs. And I sent, and they're like, who? And I was like, Red Four Delta, Red Four Golf, Red Four. And they're like, that's you. I'm like, yes. And then they were treating us, uh, and then they responded. And I was telling her earlier, uh, I always used to call my wife. On a sat phone, like every two weeks on a Sunday. This happened on a Thursday, I believe.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  And we get treated and we're basically all RTD. They bandaged us up. Oh, we went out the mission the next day. The Brigade Sergeant Major, he came and grabbed me. He's like, hey, Pinion, I need you to get a vehicle. It'd be nice if you get your vehicle fixed. I mean, they had to replace all the tires, all the commo, everything. We had holes, holes all through the vehicle. And they're like, hey, I want to take your vehicle to Division Headquarters so you can see what we went through. I'm like, we? And I remember Lugo, my driver, was just like this, you know, but they say you fall down, you get back on the bike, but he was like this, driving to Division Headquarters the next day. But anyway, you know, they do casualty reports or whatever. Somehow I got back to the rear and they left

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  a voice message to my wife and it was, have you heard about your husband? If not, call me. That was our casualty notification. Well, I didn't call my wife and I called her on Sunday. As soon as she heard my voice, she is freaking out. And I'm like, baby, you can hear me, right? You hear me, right? You hear me? Yeah, so it was bad. Thankfully, I was okay. We later found out that I had torn ACL in my knee, which required surgery as soon as I got back. They did the MRI. They're like, you have no ACL anymore when I had gone into the radio mount and tore whatever. So I had surgery right after. And

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  then they found out I had bleeding on the back of the brain from TBI. But yeah, that was, that was the IED from that IED.

• 1:03:28Jocko Willink?

  How long was this first appointment?

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  We got extended. Sometimes I misspeak. I think that one was 17 months? Was it 12, 15, 15, 15 months? Yeah, because we got extended right as we, I mean, we were shooting, basic load. And they're like, you're going to wait in two days. And they're like, nope, stop, extended, go to Karjaf and Karbala and stop the uprising. And we got extended three months, yeah, 15 months.

• 1:03:59Jocko Willink?

  How was it coming home after that deployment?

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, it was good. It was hard. You know, it's hard. Any deployment that's coming home is hard. But I think mine was hard because I, I talk about getting fired sometimes and I had a really rough relation, relationship with my third commander and it was my fault. Uh, you know, you have to own your, your, I was pushing the wrong way as a leader and I put my platoon leader in a rough spot because I thought I knew all the answers and I, I knew what I was doing as a platoon sergeant, which I did. Uh, and I knew how to keep my men alive, but I was pushing my commander wrong and, uh,

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  and I thought my commander was a coward under fire. A different story. Uh, and three weeks before the appointment, he removed me, uh, after an incident. Uh, and my brigade sergeant major saved me, uh, from a court martial. And so I was removed, uh, and they put me in brigade staff. And as we got back, that's when they found out my ACL was gone. Uh, and they found the brain bleed or spotting and they did this ACL surgery. And it was the brigade sergeant major who called me and was like, hey, congratulations. You also made E8. Uh, you know, good job, buddy.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  And oh, by the way, we're already being told we're going back to Iraq. We're not even home. Thirty days. And they're like, hey, you're going back to Iraq. I mean, we just did 15 months, but that was the time, 2003, 2004. They're like, I mean, I met people who went with us to Iraq, stop loss lifted, they PCSed and we saw them coming back north as we were going south to go home. Uh, and 30 days after we get home, they're like, hey, we're going back to Iraq and it within a year. Uh, and he's like, congratulations. You made E8. Uh, when can you walk? I was like, hey, they said I'll be running in nine, that's not what I effing said. When can you walk? I'm like 30

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  days. He's like, good. I'm making you the first sergeant. You're going back to the BRT. Uh, get ready because we, you're going to have a special mission. Uh,

• 1:06:18Jocko Willink?

  So when you left in October, in October 2003,

• 1:06:24Jocko Willink?

  Did, when you went home, cause so I got to Iraq in like September, October 2003.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, we left in like July of oh four or something like that.

• 1:06:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  It was just our mission changed in oh three.

• 1:06:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, got it. Okay.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  We started doing circle. I got blown up in oh three, but we did circles.

• 1:06:38Jocko Willink?

  So when you, so you, so you didn't leave until July of oh four?

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think around that time. Yeah.

• 1:06:43Jocko Willink?

  So you had started to see, cause I was gonna say there was a time period like maybe around December 2003 into early 2004. Even in the spring, it seemed like things seemed to be going in a decent direction.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:06:59Jocko Willink?

  Like, oh, you know, like, cause I left in the spring and uh, it's probably around April of 2004. And it seemed like there was a little, there was a spike in some, some enemy activity, cause uh, the, the, the Shia were starting to rise up and that was starting to cause problems, but prior to April, so what would that be? March, February and March, it was like, oh, we're gonna, this, this, we're not gonna be here for that much longer. That's how I felt. Did you kinda get that feeling too?

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  We were pulling tanks out of Iraq. I was escorting tanks to Kuwait.

• 1:07:33Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Uh, they're like, yeah, we're good. We're gonna be pulling cops, shutting down bases and cops and everything else. We're good, man. We're out of here. Yeah, we're out.

• 1:07:44Jocko Willink?

  So you get back, you're immediately, you, you let your leg heal up and now you're right back into uh, training for your next deployment. And, and what's your job now? What's your position?

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was in brigade staff uh, for a couple of months, getting better. Um, and then we hear we're going back. So I think it was April 2005 is when they latterly appointed me to first sergeant E8 and put me officially back in the brigade reconnaissance troop to get ready to go back to Iraq, yeah, April oh five.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Then when, was Colonel McFarlane officially the brigade commander? I think so. And they're like a, we got a special mission for you. And again, the brigade reconnaissance troop is a special unit to begin with. And I'm not trying to sound cocky or anything, but it's a brigade reconnaissance unit.

• 1:08:39Jocko Willink?

  How many guys are in the, in the brigade recon?

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, on paper, it's, it's like 57, 54 with attachments. We can go up all the way up to 100, depending on what missions we're doing, but on paper it's like 54.

• 1:08:54Jocko Willink?

  So you, you work up for that? Any major lessons learned from your, as you're preparing to go on this deployment?

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the biggest lessons were the mission change because they're like, hey, we want you to do small kill team ambush missions. So we are going to embed asymmetric warfare group. We want you to learn from ODA. We want you to learn from SEALs. Like here's all the unconventional teams. We want you to learn from, we're going to send this amount of people sniper school, this amount of people that tracking school. Like we went, we were sending people to schools and doing all the field training. So there's no downtime. So you had one year back, but that one year back was training for stuff, not out of our realm, but it was new lessons learned.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  So I think it was getting ready for that type of missions. And then right before we deployed, like, oh, change a mission. We're going to put you under 137 and put you up north. Uh, as a landowner, uh, which is okay. Not typically our mission, but that's what our training was focused on. Small kill team mission operations. So that's.

• 1:10:07Jocko Willink?

  And was that, was that, uh, McFarland driving that?

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  Correct. Like, I don't know.

• 1:10:12Jocko Willink?

  That guy has some insight, doesn't he?

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Correct. Correct. And he pulled myself and Captain Byama in the office. And said, this is where I need you to go with your unit. Uh, and that's what we did.

• 1:10:27Jocko Willink?

  What was your first impression of McFarland?

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Again, you get this tall, almost, I'm not going to say nerdy, uh, but sort of nerdy, uh, dry sense of humor. Like I couldn't read him at all at first. Uh, and you know, some guys are funny. Some guys just look like hunter killer, sort of go like scary. I didn't have any of that with them.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  I really had no opinion at first. You know, I can say stuff about Colonel Tedesco and some of the other battalion commanders, you know, like Captain Baima, you just get this arrogance right away. Yeah, that guy, he was like, all right, I got you. I can read you like a book. Easy. Your book has pictures and colors. But I, I mean, yeah, Colonel McFarlane is just skinny, tall. You can tell he's smart right away, but he gave us the mission. He was straightforward in it, too. And we had a good S3. And they just told us what you want and we're like, execute. But he gave us the authority and the lenience to run it how we felt.

• 1:11:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's a true believer in decentralized command, that's for sure. So when you go on deployment, you, so your first thing, when you go on deployment, it's now, what, early 2006? And you guys go straight to Tal Afar?

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  Correct. And we're west of Tal Afar in Sinjar, Sinjar Mountains, just south of Sinjar Mountains in Biage. In fact, that's where, so this tells you about main gun Baima. His first op order was welcome back Biage. Like, that was his first op order for us to go back to Iraq.

• 1:12:07Jocko Willink?

  And what, when you're up in Tal Afar, so what are you guys doing up there? What's your job? What's your mission?

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  So we were landowners of a small town.

• 1:12:15Jocko Willink?

  So, so your troop actually had like?

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  We owned land. And we had Iraqi army.

• 1:12:21Jocko Willink?

  And this is when Baima was still in charge of your troop?

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Correct. And we owned the town and the land south of it. And we called it like the terrorist training camp. Like, they were bad, the terrorists, and they were blowing themselves up. We would get some mortar attacks and we'd do some counter mortar missions. But our job was really to try and work with the Iraqi army there and have them turn over, take over that area. So we were partnering with them a lot to do a lot of the missions. And then really south of that area. And then sometimes we'd go out to Syria, the border out there, and try and stop the smuggling that was going out there on the border.

• 1:13:01Jocko Willink?

  When did you start hearing rumors about Ramadi?

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  It came fast. That changed a mission for us. I think we're like the redhead stepchild. We're just out there doing our thing and all of a sudden they're like, hey, we're going to close this base here in Biage and you're going to go to Talafar. And by the way, we got E W G coming in again. They're getting in bed with you for 30 days and we need your snipers to get ready. And we're going somewhere west of Fallujah. And I had operated west of Fallujah in my first when we did the Fallujah mission in oh three. We started looking at maps and they started talking Ramadi probably, we didn't hear about it till probably early May or late April.

• 1:13:42Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  So it was late and I think they were still trying to decide who's going where between battalions and stuff. Yeah. So I don't, yeah, it was quick for us.

• 1:13:52Jocko Willink?

  And then what, how did you guys get down there? Did you just, uh, drive?

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we drove. So that was, so we closed up, went to Talafar, got our marching orders. And that's why I talk like the transition for us was huge.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  And then we drove our entire troop through. And I mean, you're talking multiple sectors. Apache's overhead, you're switching crypto through the zones with multiple commands. Like it through the night. And then I think that was our first transition that the game is on. And we're talking like Doc Black and stuff that was here earlier. For the new soldiers, we just came from training camp that people blowing themselves up. We are now hitting convoys and multiple IEDs along the route from Baghdad to Fallujah to Ramadi. And we're getting stopped

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  with multiple convoys in the middle of the night. And IEDs are just going off along the route. And that's a main route. And I remember our supply sergeant is an L M T V with a whip antenna man pack radio. And I'm tracking the convoy on the Blue Force tracker. And we're doing a count and I don't see the L M T V because he doesn't have a Blue Force tracker, but I'm doing a count of the convoy.

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  And he says he's moving, but our convoy is not moving. He had jumped into the other, some other convoy.

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  So now I'm chasing our supply sergeant along the route and I track him down and I get him pulled over and I'm like, "Bro, you're in the wrong fucking convoy." And he's like, "What?" I'm like, "You are leading us to Ramadi right now." Like, "You're the lead, man. Tip of the spear."

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  But it was like, it was a wake-up call for some, like, we are not north. We are not in the north anymore. Like, we are moving. The game is changing. And just the movement to Ramadi was fun.

• 1:16:00Jocko Willink?

  And, and then when you guys, when you guys got down there, did you guys immediately get chopped to the 137?

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  No. So we left 137, we got to Tal Afar.

• 1:16:08Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  And then we didn't, I don't think we had clear attachment orders yet. So when we got to Camp Ramadi, we were back under brigade control initially. And I think, yeah, we were told we were going to start doing small kill team missions. And that's when we initially told we were going to start working with the SEAL teams. In fact, I think our first few missions were with SEAL Team 3.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  And yeah, our first few missions were with SEAL Team 3.

• 1:16:37Jocko Willink?

  What was your impression of meeting, uh, meeting my guys?

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. It, it was, no, interesting in a good way. So we had worked with the ODA team up north and we did not have, uh, the greatest impression because they were very standoffish. In my first deployment, we had very good interactions with unconventional forces in general, no matter who they were, what task force they were, whatever they said they were. Uh, we had very good interactions. But up north, we had a very standoffish interaction. They had their own compound within our compound and would not talk to us and would not share what missions they were doing. Would only tell us when it was over.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  And it's a very tough atmosphere to deal with when you're trying to share intel or how can you help each other. So it is very different when you get invited to Shark Base to come into your talk and you're like, hey, brother, my name is Jocko. For some reason, I thought it was Rhino or something like that at first.

• 1:17:44Jocko Willink?

  Rhino was actually the task duty commander after me.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:17:47Jocko Willink?

  His nickname was Rhino.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Oh, maybe.

• 1:17:48Jocko Willink?

  So you went from Jocko to Rhino.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Maybe that's why I stuck to my head, but either way, I was like, man, what a badass. But I remember I was like, man, badass. And I think that was our first impressions and like, man,

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  how welcoming of a difference it is to say, hey, how can we help? I think that was one of your first sayings, like, this is what we do. How can we help each other? And then this is the area of what we know right now. And I think you had an intel person, give us a layout of what you knew. And because we were starting to build our map and we had pull all the intel from deployments before and we had our XO, John Villasenor and Staff Sergeant Damon Walker, who was in our headquarters, they started building the intel of all of Ramadi and we had all the building numbers and we started pinwheeling all the attacks. By house, by hour, by day of the week, by month, to try and find patterns.

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  And we had no intel experience. And they're like, hey, we're going to pinwheel this thing. So initially, and then my guys had this sort of this coolness because they had done small kill teams. This is a background they've been training for, for almost a year to get ready. And they're like, hey, we're ready for missions. So I think within the first two weeks after Transfer Authority, we were already on missions with you guys and they're coming back like, this is what we trained for. So they were hyped and we had success in the missions. I mean, Jesse Gonzalez came back. I'll, I'll never forget. He came back and he's like, first arm, shot a two oh three round. Now, we didn't have the, the cars or whatever. We had the two oh threes under that rifle.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  He's like, shot a two oh three round HE through the window. First try. They high-fived me.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  And I was like, hey, great job, Jesse. Gonzo, we call him Gonzo.

• 1:19:38Jocko Willink?

  The, the, we dumped a lot of two oh three rounds.

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:42Jocko Willink?

  A lot of, a lot of those forty mic rounds. Yeah, you're right. We didn't have a lot of two oh threes. We used the M79.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, the M79.

• 1:19:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, old school, that thumper. But, um, yeah, it was, it was great. You know, the, the attitude in Ramadi was like, hey, we need, everyone needs all the help we can get. And we're all one big team here. So you, you guys, like, for us, it was like, oh, you guys want to come out and set up Overwatch positions near us? Awesome. Like, let's go.

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  And I think that's the point. We had similar capabilities that we could support each other. Uh, maybe not levels of training or equipment wise, uh, but we had the capabilities to help each other. And we had the soldier with discipline to go out there and do it. Uh, so having snipers with snipers and machine guns with machine guns and the specialized team to do small kill team operations and size capacity, it, it just worked out perfect. Uh, so when we did joint missions, it was amazing.

• 1:20:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I, I remember one time, uh, we got a visit from like one of my senior leaders in the SEAL teams. And they're like, you know, hey, Jocko, do you need anything? And I was like, yeah, we need another task unit. Like, can you send me another, just send me another forty SEALs out here? And like, we got, we, I got more work than we could ever hope for. That's not happening. And so it was like, okay, cool. So you guys show up. It's like, bro, you guys want to get in on this action? Let's go.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a, I remember one mission I walked on, uh, where I think it was in the life. Uh, we were walking. It was nighttime. And just the green lasers or, you know, and they're just everywhere. And I just remember being, it's like a light show at night and we're just, and you're like, this is awesome.

• 1:21:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  Like, it feels good.

• 1:21:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. So Echo Charles, when you're patrolling, um, you have night vision on and so the enemy can't see it, but you can see, you can basically, you can tell where everyone's looking because you can see where they're, what they're lazing. And so you feel like as, it's pretty awesome. It's like an awesome feeling of knowing that you can see how much people are paying attention to scanning windows, scanning doors, scanning rooftops. You can see all these laser, it looks like a porcupine of lasers going down the street and it's a very good feeling.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you see, yeah. It, you, you definitely feel more confidence without a doubt. Uh, it feels good.

• 1:22:04Jocko Willink?

  What kind of TTPs surprised you?

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  I will tell you honestly, I, I felt really confident coming back on those missions of how closely we operated. Now there were stuff like, if you're talking peeling, but if you're talking cover and move, either with team or individual, we were very closely, you know, you, you guys might say stuff different, uh, but we operated in general movement, the silence, but cover and move was all the same. I think the, the only true difference we had is of how we established within houses, uh, the TTPs or barricaded or set up positions within there. Um, but if we set our vest next to the machine gun, so it doesn't matter

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  who was on the machine gun, they had the ammo and everything else and we had the vest here. But we, we learned from you of how to cover our dead spaces better, or what we're looking at from talking to your team. So we learned knowledge of how to look at danger areas better. But when it actually came to the patrolling and the maneuvering, I think we were very close, but you, like I say, Chris, Kyle. Shooting with our snipers on the range and having that fun competition and smack talking.

• 1:23:29Jocko Willink?

  That's Chris.

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  Um, really helped and gave our guys confidence to realize, hey, our guys can shoot.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  And it's fun to compare notes and techniques and how we set up our, our blind spots and why we sit back off a window like this and to learn how they shoot. Uh, and to, when you're making the holes in the wall, why you make it like this.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  It, it was really fun, uh, to compare stuff like that. And then I think our guys learned about decision making. And that's what I always preached. I never, I, I always say like, I should have a T-shirt said like, okayest leader. But I was always proud.

• 1:24:14Jocko Willink?

  Okayest?

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, okayest. But I always, I always preached, make a decision. The people who don't make decisions have issues or leads to problems. You have to evaluate and you have to make a decision. Your decision is not going to be right, but it's going to be worse if you don't make a decision. And I think they learned from your team, how quick people can evaluate situations, prioritize, and then make a decision, execute. And that would generally lead to better outcomes than overthinking or not making decisions.

• 1:24:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The, the exchange of information that everybody had was, was pretty awesome. I know we, we did a bunch of, Overwatch's right in the beginning with three eight and three eight scout snipers and stuff. And they shared all kinds of good information with us and, you know, helped us with our TTPs. And then the, the decision making and stuff is like, we get a lot of really good training. And one thing that, that we do pretty good is make really small decisions fast. So it's like, hey, I don't necessarily need to make a huge decision right now, but I can make a little one. You know, for instance, oh, our Overwatch position is getting attacked. I don't have to say, oh, we're gonna leave now, but I could say, alright, well, let's put

• 1:25:36Jocko Willink?

  eyes on this part of the road so we can see what the exit's gonna look like. You can make a decision very quickly that then is gonna indicate to you, if you wanna make another small decision in that direction, you can make it, or you can say, oh, we, oh, we're not taking fire anymore, it seems like we're gonna be okay, or, oh, we're taking more fire, luckily, we already have eyes on our exit, we can move down that road. So, making these little decisions very quickly is what I think our team got good at. And, again, for us, it was just like, having more people, especially like you guys that were focused on the same thing that we're focused on, being able to set up mutually supporting overwatch positions was just, like, very helpful and very awesome.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think that's one of the things we'll learn later is, we were smaller than the Marines, the way they took houses. So where they would put forty in a house, we're putting twelve. So we had to rely on mutually supporting houses and overwatch positions. So anytime we could team up with you, was a, we're like, absolutely, there's no way we're, we're saying no to that.

• 1:26:40Jocko Willink?

  What was your op tempo like?

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're going every, every day. I mean, you know, Colonel McFarland at the time, he wanted major operations every two to three days. And then, so as the BRT, so we went from 137, we get to Ramadi, we started off doing missions with you, and then they put us under Colonel Dean as a landowner again, and, because they took forces from his battalion to give the 137 for the, the main push. So we supported his battalion. And we had some land that we owned again, and routed gremlins. And then, we got pulled off of that to do

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  missions again. And then Colonel McFarland would be like, hey, I'm gonna keep putting you at the point of friction. Wherever I need special stuff, I'm gonna keep putting the BRT. So we were always in some good spots.

• 1:27:36Jocko Willink?

  And also, it's also, you mentioned in the book, but McFarland grabbed Mike Byma, and took him from you, and put him back in charge of a, of a tank company.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, what a great decision. Again, you don't understand how, what his mindset was, but... For Ramadi, I mean, you worked with Mike all the time and then later, but I don't understand why decisions are made. I try and learn that, like, I'm more interested in books that say how decisions came out, like, why? But, boy, he nailed that one. Putting Biema in a tank.

• 1:28:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  That dude's Rommel.

• 1:28:12Jocko Willink?

  You don't, you don't get the nickname Main Gun for nothing.

• 1:28:19Jocko Willink?

  So, we, we, we talked about, uh, stress, you know, um, with your deployment to Bosnia. How was your, how was your troops handling the stress in, in Ramadi? I know that one of the things that always struck me as a very unfortunate situation was the fact that that vehicle graveyard was on the right-hand side as you drove out the front gate and there's 75 or 100 vehicles there, all twisted and, and, uh, burned up and knowing that each one of those vehicles represents one or two or three Americans wounded or killed. And

• 1:29:00Jocko Willink?

  just the knowing every time you go out in the city, um, there's that chance. How was your, how was your guys holding up?

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  So, I will tell you, you know, the transition, when we got there in early June and we realized this is not the north anymore and you had the daily attacks, mortar attacks. And we're like, oh, this is not Kansas anymore, Dorothy. Uh, it was a wait, a serious wake-up call.

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  And then we started with the early missions and we had immediate success. So, everybody was on a high. And then we attacked Ramadi. And again, we had early success. But around the end of July, going into August is when it really started to hit us because we started to take casualties and losses. We were fortunate where we never really used the front gate. We used the back gate because that was our area. Uh, so, but we became keenly aware of the graveyard because we started putting vehicles in it. Um, and because we were small...

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  Any casualty to us became well known. So as soon as we started taking casualties, it's such a small unit, just like a team, it really starts to hit you. And I started to see it wear on our soldiers quicker and heavier.

• 1:30:25Jocko Willink?

  I know for us, you know, August 2nd is when Mark Lee was killed and Ryan Job was so badly wounded. And we had been working with you guys at that point a lot.

• 1:30:39Jocko Willink?

  What do you remember about, what do you remember about how that impacted your guys? I know that, I know that Army guys that I knew, they were very,

• 1:30:50Jocko Willink?

  you know, it seemed like we had a little bit of invincibility, you know, like, hey, we're, we're out there tasking a bruiser. We're going down, we're killing bad guys every day, like, and you know, being that everyone knows what's happening. Everyone's reading the ARs, everyone's hearing on the radios, you know, you're hearing the reports on the radios. And so I know that, I mean, for us, it was definitely, you know, an end of our invincibility. What did you, do you remember that impact for you guys?

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  No, it absolutely was the exact same. So we know that day very well.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  And the mission, and like I said, every time we went out with you, there was, there was more level of confidence of what we had. We had more firepower. We had more professionals. I mean, we had the best of the best going out with us or supporting us or us supporting you, however you want to look at it. We were just better than the enemy and we knew it.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  And we put a hurting on the enemy. There's no other way to say it. And when you hear that Mark Lee was killed

• 1:32:05Speaker 01

  and you hear it's a SEAL, it doesn't matter the name at first. You just hear the SEAL was killed.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  I can't even imagine what your team's going through. And then you hear about the evacuation and you hear what's going on and you're still fighting door to door to door and you're still supporting.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  It really, for me internally, like, oh my gosh.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  You're not Superman anymore. And that's what I remember from the previous deployment like, hey, like I'm not invincible. I just remember that feeling for me personally. And then when you have it happen to a team, a SEAL team, you're like, oh, this is real. And then, like I said, when we went to the memorial service and to hear you speak, and one, people don't realize that like that tent is huge. And it was filled. I mean, it's absolutely filled. Standing room only to honor Mark. And then to hear you speak and the strength it takes to speak. And then,

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  like I said, in the army, we would have people speak. And then you do the roll call where you say the name. And then you do taps and the salute. It gets you gut wrenching. But like I said, I felt everything leave my body when somebody just screamed Mark's name. I mean, it was earth shattering scream, calling Mark's name. And the reality set in for me personally, that everything was about to change for us. And I can't remember the date of the memorial

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  service, but it coincided with exactly when we started taking losses. That first week of August, we started taking some serious losses and casualties and everything changed from the BRT. So I know exactly where we are in Ramadi.

• 1:34:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so that was, you know, Mark was killed on August 2nd and

• 1:34:20Jocko Willink?

  I forget what day the memorial service was, but you know, it was, it was not long after. I mean, they were happening all the time. It wasn't like you postponed it. It was, it was happening. And, and I know that, um, I mean, it's just, everyone has to get their gear back on and go back out in the field. That's what's going to happen. Um, the enemy is going to keep coming. The, the missions are going to keep going. We need to keep pressing. We need to keep pressure on the enemy. And so we get our gear back on, we go back in the field and that's exactly what you guys did. That's what everybody did. Um, picking up in the book here on August 4th, uh, uh, 2006, second platoon was scheduled to go on route Gremlin again. The request, they requested a route clearance team and it was denied. I was

• 1:35:05Jocko Willink?

  scheduled to go on their mission, but the night before I was told to be in a meeting with the brigade command sergeant major. Second platoon conducted the early morning inspections and headed out for their missions. First platoon would replace second platoon in sector. Round 0800, in the middle of the meeting, Sergeant Jared Rogers, our communication sergeant and the executive officer, and the executive officer's gunner practically knocked the door down to get to me. His eyes and expression said everything. Something terrible had happened and I was needed. We stormed out of the HQ, jumped in the XO's vehicle and returned to our troops, troop HQ. My crew had my vehicle ready and our new medic was prepping everything in the backseat. Sergeant

• 1:35:48Jocko Willink?

  Rogers couldn't tell me what was going on as it was hard for him to talk and drive with his emotions going crazy. But once I got to our HQ, I heard that second platoon had hit an IED and it was not good.

• 1:36:00Jocko Willink?

  We jumped in our Humvees and the commander and I took off. The point of contact was only five minutes away and I saw the smoke billowing in the air. That's a weird, it's a weird thing. It was a weird thing about the battle of Ramadi is you could, you could see smoke, you know, from base. I know, you know, uh, my building, we could go, we could look out the window of my building. They were sandbagged, but if you went outside on like these, had these little patios, you go up on the rooftop, you could just sit there and watch. You could see what's happening. You'd hear a report, like sometimes I'd hear something happening and go up to look and see what I could see. And so here you are. You're actually still on base, relatively safe, and yet you can see smoke and you know exactly what it is.

• 1:36:43Jocko Willink?

  First platoon, who was already in sector but further out, turned around and headed to the point of contact as well. Second platoon had wrapped up their early morning reconnaissance and snap checkpoint missions and were heading back to base with Sergeant Story and his crew as the rear vehicle in the convoy. His crew that day was Sergeant Bradley Best as the driver, Specialist Michael Hayes as the gunner, himself as the vehicle commander, and they had an Iraqi translator sitting behind Story. Usually the platoon sergeant would be in the rear vehicle and the platoon leader would be in the middle. However, the platoon leader was on leave, so Sergeant First Class Mike Olonek, am I saying that right? Yeah, Olonek. Olonek served as platoon leader and moved to the middle. Sergeant Story's crew had

• 1:37:24Jocko Willink?

  just passed the Ramada University walls and were starting down an S-shaped curve embankment when the IED went off underneath them. It was command wired, set off by an enemy watching from a nearby factory. It had been placed in the perfect choke point on the only path down the embankment. You couldn't drive fast there, and if you were not careful, vehicles would bunch up. The ground was not freshly turned, so the IED had been in place for a while. The commander and I made it there quickly with our two crews. Trying to figure out what was happening in the chaos was hard. As we approached the burning vehicle, I thought I was looking at the gunner's hatch. However, as the smoke cleared a little, I saw tires

• 1:38:06Jocko Willink?

  spinning. I was looking at the bottom of the Humvee where the IED had blasted through the undercarriage. Staff Sergeant Story, Sergeant Best and the interpreter were killed instantly. There was absolutely no doubt in our minds. They did not suffer, but we could not get to them with the ammunition cooking off inside the Humvee engulfed in flames. Captain Insulin ordered First Platoon to head toward base and grab the base camp fire truck and force them out the gate to help us. This was a colossal no-no. They were civilians, and their mission was to serve the camp, not outside the wire, but those brave civilians defied orders and followed First Platoon out the gate to us.

• 1:38:51Jocko Willink?

  Specialist Michael Hayes was alive but hurt very bad. His leg was in shambles and on fire.

• 1:38:59Jocko Willink?

  He had to escape from the Humvee. Trying to move, he realized his leg was cut in half and reached down amid the flames to grab the bottom portion of his left leg. Then, on his back, Mike crawled away from the heat. He made it approximately 20 feet before the first soldier reached him.

• 1:39:15Jocko Willink?

  Specialist Chris Buckley and Sergeant Reagan Barr had been in the vehicle in front of white twos and immediately stopped when they heard the explosion, jumping out and racing toward the vehicles. Chris heard Mike calling for help and went to him, while Reagan attempted to get the others out.

• 1:39:36Jocko Willink?

  So you see that Humvee, and you actually think you're looking at it right side up, but it's flipped upside down?

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's horrific. I mean, absolutely horrific. When you see the smoke sort of clearing, and you see what you're actually looking at. I mean, one, it's important to understand that, you know, this enemy is sophisticated, and they're changing tactics. I mean, as we're adjusting, they're adjusting. I don't think people understand that sometimes, as we're trying to talk about. Ramadi is a key hotbed for a reason. Like, they're good. This wasn't just a pushover enemy. They're changing as we're changing tactics. And as we were beating

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  them in this Raucian Gremlins area, they're adjusting tactics. And we shut down their smuggling in their weapons. And as, on that day, they adjusted and got us. And it was horrific IED. It's one of the worst ones that I saw.

• 1:40:51Jocko Willink?

  Going back to the book, by the time we got closer, they had Mike loaded into Sergeant First Class Olenek's vehicle and they raced toward my truck. We had practiced casualty evacuation and exchange several times. Typically, we would cross-load the casualty from one vehicle to mine. I would continue treatment and get them to safety while the platoon returned to the fight. But our standard operating procedure was about to change. As we pulled up to door to door, I saw the anguished look on Sergeant First Class Olenek's face. He was a strong soldier with outstanding leadership skills. We had been drill sergeants together in years past, and he was a perfect role model for soldiers. Easygoing, funny,

• 1:41:31Jocko Willink?

  and great to get along with. Today, I saw the horror of war in his eyes. As we were about to exchange Specialist Hayes from one vehicle to the next, Doc Herod, am I saying that right? Yeah, Herod. Doc Herod screamed, "Fuck no, don't move him!" Doc was precisely correct. Mike was stabilized already, and there was no need to risk further injury. We adapted on the spot. I jumped out and then into Sergeant First Class O's vehicle, and he jumped in mine. Off we both went. This was possible because our vehicle load plans, communication setup, and crews were interchangeable. This would become our future SOPs on casualty evacuation. As my new crew started back, I turned and inspected Specialist Hayes.

• 1:42:14Jocko Willink?

  I held his hand and told him it would be okay. Since we were so close to base and First Platoon was on their way, I accepted the risk and we traveled alone. I had to tell the driver, Specialist Ruiz, to slow down a few times because we were bouncing around so much, and I didn't want to hurt Mike anymore. Mike was not in good shape as Doc tried to keep his lower leg attached. We made it to the gate in no time. I had alerted the field aid station, and we were en route and what to be expected. So the medics and doctors were waiting for us at the aid station. I followed them in. The doctor told me to stay out, but he quickly learned that wasn't happening. I gave them all his information, blood type injuries. Meanwhile, the vehicle crew started cleaning blood from the vehicle and getting it ready to return. "Save him",

• 1:42:57Jocko Willink?

  was my order to the doctor. "I will, but I can't save the leg." I understood.

• 1:43:10Jocko Willink?

  Meanwhile, the fire department extinguished the Humvee and assisted with the recovering of the dead heroes. I stayed at the aid station and waited for the arrival of the bodies so I could go through the process of paperwork and identifying them. I'm forever grateful to Captain Dan Ensland and Sergeant First Class Mike Oleneck for keeping everyone back and helping the firefighters recover our soldiers. And I am so sorry for the horrors forever etched into those brave responders' brains. When the bodies returned, the morgue did their underappreciated job of prepping them for their final flights home. I signed all the paperwork and made one order very clear. Everything goes back to America. I was not leaving a single piece of American soldier in this country.

• 1:43:54Jocko Willink?

  Specialist Michael Hayes was air transported to safety and back to America for treatment.

• 1:44:01Jocko Willink?

  That night, we conducted our first angel ceremony for our fallen.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  So, for us, that was our first hard reality. We had had IEDs before that, and people had walked away. We had casualties. We had somebody end up losing a hand and blind in his eye, but they walked away and talked. That was our first loss and hit home. And you talked about like earlier about like Cantor saying, Roger that, I'm gonna go check that IED. And now you have Buckley, a 19-year-old kid shielding his body from explosives going

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  off in the vehicle as rounds are cooking off and grenades are cooking off so they can work on Specialist Hayes.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  To try and stabilize them. I mean, just nineteen year old kid, just like, hey, I got this. You have Regan Barr trying to get to the vehicle on fire and burning his hands, trying to open the doors as rounds are cooking off and it's so hot trying to get to him. And then you have a medic, like, don't you move him, basically, making the right call and changing our evacuation process and adjusting the ways we do stuff. But that was our first lesson. I mean, reality slapped us in the face in it.

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  Afterwards, I don't know if I mentioned or not, but Buckley told me afterwards that he went back to his tent and he was the only one left in his tent. Yeah. So this is probably three weeks of hard fighting when we took over and he went back to us and we had about ten people in our tent at the time. Anyway, back to the tent, he was the only one left in his tent and Staff Sergeant Bear came into the tent and said, grab your shit and moved all his stuff into another tent. We lost an entire tent within three weeks from casualties and wounded and that was our first

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  loss. So it hit you like it's like we're in a fight and it's not going to get better. Like it's gonna get worse and we have to continue to push. And that was the day when it really hit us.

• 1:46:49Jocko Willink?

  How long was it before you guys were back in the field?

• 1:46:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, hours. Yeah, hours. I mean, first platoon was on mission as soon as we finished clearing that area. Second platoon, who lost, as soon as we ended up inventory and everything, they're back on mission the next day. But this was my first leadership challenge. So this is where...

• 1:47:20Speaker 01

  I got stuff right and wrong. I started compartmentalizing myself and putting stuff back. I became cold. I don't say in a negative way. I just didn't show emotion where my commander did in a positive way, but I became very mission focused, like let's go. And I became anal in making sure, are you ready? Are you ready? Are you ready? Let's do this. Let's do this. Not micromanaging. I was just very mission focused because I didn't want to see anymore and I didn't take care of myself emotionally.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  I didn't grieve. I didn't, I focused on what's next. And I had a platoon who was scared, fear, and I was scared. And it was fear. And I had leaders who were ready to give up leadership positions. And I was like, fuck no. I needed them to lead. And they were the best people to lead. And I couldn't switch them out, even though they were asking me to switch. If I had switched them out, what would that have done to the other, the soldiers under them? I couldn't. There was no better option.

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  So it was me going on mission with them more.

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  That was my decision. Like, first sergeant shouldn't be kicking in doors or being the first vehicle in the convoy.

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  But there I was, going to Baghdad with them in a convoy or wherever we were going. But I couldn't. So I had a leadership.

• 1:49:13Speaker 01

  Dilemmas or and there's stuff about me, I became cold. Uh, and some I got right, some I didn't. Uh, and it hurt me later emotionally because I grieved later. Uh, all at once later on the deployment. Uh, and I had a soldier. Uh, Shay, his first time I saw battle fatigue. I mean, I heard about it in World War Two. I didn't even know what the fuck it was. You know, you heard about was it whether the general slapping. Uh, I watched this soldier blank stare, couldn't blink, no emotion, couldn't sleep.

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  Lockboard, sleeping on a or laying on a cot, couldn't move.

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  From losing his best friend on that day. And that we had to evac to the rear. Uh, for PTSD or battle fatigue.

• 1:50:12Jocko Willink?

  And you didn't, you, your initial assessment was like, what the hell is going on here?

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was one of the toughest young kids I ever saw. A young non-commissioned officer and could not function physically, emotionally or mentally. At the time, I could not process or understand it. In about three months, I understand, understood him a hundred percent.

• 1:50:36Speaker 01

  So I, that was, reality hit our troop. Fear struck our troop and I started to learn.

• 1:50:46Speaker 01

  I was changing inside as a leader.

• 1:50:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think some of that's just survival mechanism too.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct.

• 1:50:54Jocko Willink?

  Because, and I know I felt like I cannot be. You know, breaking down. Uh, because same thing, like if I'm breaking down over here, what's going to happen with everybody else? So you, you, you know, survival mechanism is like, okay, what do I need to focus on? And I, I literally told my guys, I said, hey, I don't know what to do, except for one thing, work. And we're gonna go back to work because I didn't know there was no I never had a class in it. I never had a senior leader pull me aside and say, hey, if you lose someone in combat because it was the nineties. We didn't have guys that lost people in combat. We it just didn't exist. So I wasn't.

• 1:51:36Jocko Willink?

  There was no instruction. There's no manual on it. Oh, there's a manual on the casualty assistant, whatever casualty care officer. There's a manual on that. There's all these protocols you follow. Make sure you do this with the with the gear. Make sure you do this with the serial numbers. Make there's all that stuff. That's a checklist. But not one thing on that checklist addresses. What do you tell that guy's best friend? When he's got to go back on a mission in two nights. Well, there's no, there's no, there's nothing like that. And so part of the survival mechanism is like, I don't really know 100% what to do there. One thing I do know is I know how to be a frogman and what we do is we go and we go do operations. We do our mission. That's what we do. And that's, that's what I focused on.

• 1:52:21Jocko Willink?

  And, and, you know, again, whether that's the right thing to do or wrong thing to do, I don't know 100%. I know that at the time, it was the only thing I could do. It was the only thing I could do was, all right, we need to get back to work. And that's what we did. And that's what you guys did too.

• 1:52:46Jocko Willink?

  And by the way,

• 1:52:49Jocko Willink?

  it's not like, uh, you know, the enemy is going to keep coming. The odds, it's like when you flip a coin, you know, you flip a coin 10 times and it lands on tails every time. And now you think, well, it's it's bound to land on heads this time. Nope. This doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. You, you lost a guy, you lost two guys, you lost three guys. The risk is still the same. It's the same time every time you go out.

• 1:53:18Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward.

• 1:53:20Jocko Willink?

  A few, a couple of weeks. On the day of the mission, 19 August. Second platoon drove to one of the outposts. Cop Grant parked their vehicles and waited for dark to insert into the sector known as Second Officer's District. Again, so it's so interesting like how much your operations. You know, were the same as what my guys were doing, which is like, yep, go to a cop. Park the vehicles. Wait till it gets dark. Head out on Fort Patrol. To find a house, same thing here. At approximately zero to 40. They found a house, entered it, secured the family in a downstairs bedroom, which was tactically safest room in the house.

• 1:54:00Jocko Willink?

  Next, they went to the roof and began the painstaking procedure of drilling through the roof walls with chisels and hand drills. Second platoon identified two houses to support themselves and the tank battalion. We generally planned to be soft compromised within 12 hours, which meant people knocking on doors and looking for the family inside. And hard compromise within 24 hours, which meant an attack was imminent. So what that means is. You go into the neighborhood. And you take, you go into a building and you, and you take the family and you say, all right, family, you're going to go sit in this room for a while. Here's some food, here's some MRI, MREs, here's some chem lights for the kids to play with.

• 1:54:40Jocko Willink?

  And the family's sitting in there, well, in the morning time, when the neighbor goes, oh. Where's, where's Ahmed? You know, he's normally getting out in the morning, checking his garden, he's not out. Oh, where's, where's the wife? She's not out, where are the kids? They're not out. Oh, what's go, oh, there's, there's Americans in there. So that's soft compromise.

• 1:54:58Jocko Willink?

  You're calling it 12 hours here?

• 1:55:01Jocko Willink?

  I usually figured it was like within the first four or five hours, my guys were going to be telling me up, hey. We're, we're starting to take fire, we're starting to get hit.

• 1:55:11Jocko Willink?

  So yeah, and then the hard compromise, 24 hours again.

• 1:55:16Jocko Willink?

  They usually figured out where we were quicker.

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, our goal was if we can make it to the next night. Yeah, we could X fill out. It was a, it was a good mission.

• 1:55:25Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Um, sometimes our best strategy was to take a house, design great defense plans, wait to get attacked and simply kill the enemy.

• 1:55:35Jocko Willink?

  During this mission, the platoon had a soft compromise around the late morning after 10 to 12 hours on site. Sergeant Quick, Barr, Wall, and Rodriguez de Jesus were on the roof. While Sergeant First Class Oleneck, Doc Herod, and Specialist Ruiz and the interpreter were with the family downstairs. The platoon leader in the supporting house and Sergeant First Class Oleneck began developing an extraction plan. The streets became eerily quiet. A telltale sign of bad stuff about to happen. Sergeant First Class Oleneck had just radioed the plan to extract when four hand grenades came flying over the roof.

• 1:56:19Jocko Willink?

  Frag, frag, cover, shouted Sergeant Barr as he dove for cover. I've been involved in or near several grenade attacks and you will never forget the sound a grenade makes as it hits the floor and explodes. Tank, tank, tank, boom.

• 1:56:34Jocko Willink?

  Sergeant Rodriguez was off gun and asleep when the commands were shouted, but he quickly woke and curled up into a ball as did Sergeant Wall. However, despite being closest to the stairs and the closest to safety, Sergeant Marquis Quick moved toward the grenades. Sergeant Barr screamed, no. Explosions rang out as the grenades detonated. Smoke and debris was everywhere as the soldiers called out in pain. Sergeant Rodriguez was wounded in his lower back and shouting. He could not feel his legs. Sergeant Wall wounded in his leg had already applied a tourniquet and began preparing for another attack. Sergeant Barr had been blown backward during the blast and took shrapnel to his foot and buttocks.

• 1:57:16Jocko Willink?

  Sergeant Barr assumed the machine gun position and swept the roof for enemy or follow on attacks. As Sergeant Ball and Wall, Barr and Wall secured the roof. They saw Sergeant Quick unresponsive near the stairs. He had taken the brunt of the grenade explosions.

• 1:57:36Jocko Willink?

  Instead of jumping down the stairs to safety Sergeant Quick had jumped toward the grenades to protect his soldiers. On 19 August 2006 Sergeant Marquis Quick selflessly sacrificed himself to save the lives of his brothers in arms. There was absolutely no doubt in our minds. He was a true hero.

• 1:58:04Jocko Willink?

  You guys, you say we sprang into action for the team's evacuation and the tank company vehicles assisted by infantry fighting vehicles moved toward the house. It took a while to link the vehicles and our team up due to some navigation issues, but they made it to each other. They were evacuated back to Cop Grant where they mounted their vehicles to get back to Camp Ramadi in the hospital. I was already at the field aid station waiting on them. The Bradley vehicle with Sergeant Quick in it continued directly back to Camp Ramadi where I carefully helped unload Marquis and he was pronounced dead.

• 1:58:38Jocko Willink?

  The military doctor who pronounced the time of death was astonished to see the injuries. When I told him it was a complex grenade attack, he asked why Quick's injuries were on the front of the stomach area and not on the back where someone would turn to protect themselves. The injuries were on the front because Sergeant Marquis Quick, when faced with danger, chose to protect his soldiers and men above himself.

• 1:59:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. So several points. One, Quick was my driver earlier and I had moved him out of the driver position to go lead soldiers.

• 1:59:23Jocko Willink?

  Wasn't that partially because he was a bad driver?

• 1:59:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no.

• 1:59:27Jocko Willink?

  There's a lot of details in the book I'm skipping over. Get the book, read the book, hear these stories.

• 1:59:32Speaker 01

  But that is a fact. Bad driver and the biggest head I've ever seen.

• 1:59:39Speaker 01

  And one of the smartest brains.

• 1:59:42Speaker 01

  But, and then two, just about Hector Rodriguez de Jesus.

• 1:59:49Speaker 01

  We were taking casualties and we already talked about the tent where the tent was empty. Colonel McFarlane asked what he can do when we're getting ready for that angel flight earlier. And I said, he's soldiers. They had started sending us soldiers. Now, we had heard like old stories like World War II and replacement soldiers. I perceived replacement soldiers in the truest sense that I got soldiers from other battalions that we had no idea who they were.

• 2:00:19Speaker 01

  Sergeant Hector Rodriguez de Jesus, I had only known for a couple of days. He came from another battalion, came into our platoon for just a couple of days and I barely knew his name. And I'm not trying to sound cold, mean, whatever. I barely got to know him. Had a previous deployment under his belt, put him in second platoon because he had experience. And that's where I thought I didn't need the leadership and got wounded on one, you know, after a week of missions.

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  When he was evac back, the old battalion he came from, which I believe is 137, the rear detachment said, please let us take care of them because we have known them for two months. And I was like, thank you, because we didn't know him. That's replacements. Like, we were getting replacements that we didn't even know. That's how we were taking losses. And then you look at Marquis Quick. I mean, you have a Medal of Honor winner and we're going to talk, I'm going to talk about rectifying some of this stuff.

• 2:01:20Jocko Willink?

  This definitely needs to get rectified.

• 2:01:22Speaker 01

  This man is near the stairs and safety going down and goes towards grenades

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  to save his brothers and save them. They are alive because of Marquis Quick. Their lives are altered, some of them, like Hector. But he sacrificed his life for his brothers on that rooftop.

• 2:01:53Speaker 01

  No doubt in any of their minds. And I have everything ready to go. It took, it took years. Once we started this project, it's all ready. So I have the procedures and I'll talk about the end on the way forward. There's no doubt he's going to get recognized as we go. But another example of heroism of people stepping up and doing it and Marquis Quick is a hero and he saved his brother's lives.

• 2:02:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was, you know, you say in the book, you know, you say Sergeant Quick is a hero and I failed him, I failed to push to have him recognized, we should have, he should have received the Medal of Honor. I believe that in my heart and soul. We tried to resubmit the paperwork later requesting an upgrade on his medal. Unfortunately, they required sworn eyewitness testimony that Marquis had jumped on the grenade. The soldiers could not confirm because they were diving for cover. Alacia, is that her name?

• 2:02:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, Alacia.

• 2:02:58Jocko Willink?

  Alacia, your husband is a true hero and he worshipped you. You two are perfect and I'm so sorry I couldn't protect him. Nevertheless, he saved lives that day. And although we failed to recognize him with the award he deserves, we know and will never forget.

• 2:03:13Speaker 01

  So I think two points, and I know you're probably gonna say something, but one, I think we've corrected it and I have the original sworn statements. Sergeant O found his hard drive with the original sworn statements. So we have it and we pieced together the entire Con Op for it. And then I worked with General Van Wagenen, who is the old S3 from 137 or XO from 137. And obviously I've worked with Colonel or General McFarlane. So that's why I have the package together. And I have to go back through First Armored Division to submit it. So we have everything ready on that front. So he will get recognized, hopefully with the outcome that we believe in our hearts. And two, there's absolutely

• 2:03:58Speaker 01

  failure because I think when you're in the fight and you're in for survival, you don't recognize.

• 2:04:09Speaker 01

  What people are doing because you're trying to survive and you're fighting. It's only later when you look back or see other stuff going around you, when you really recognize like, oh my gosh, look what he did, look what she did, look what they did, that I truly appreciated. Or maybe back even at my career of how much I truly appreciated, how great the people I served with were. And it was when I was talking with the first armored division commander's armada about this award, and he was with us in Ramadi, and he was a battle sergeant in 137, James Light. He was like, Dan, we had so many heroes that we just didn't fully appreciate at the time because we were in it.

• 2:04:54Speaker 01

  And even Colonel McFarland says, we should have taken better care of the BRT and the heroes of what you guys did.

• 2:05:02Speaker 01

  It's true. I wish we recognized them better.

• 2:05:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think, well, one thing that was just timing wise for like Mikey, that was at the end of our deployment. So all of a sudden, you know, Mikey dies in September 29th. Like, we're literally, you know, starting to package up stuff to go home. And so I think that little, just the time I could be like, oh, okay. And, and plus the guys were immediately like, they were just immediately like, hey, he, he, he saved us, you know? I talked to the guys that got CASA back to Germany. They're like, he saved us, he saved us, he saved us. And it was, it was, and, and because those guys got medevac, and then I followed them home.

• 2:05:45Jocko Willink?

  It was like, the timing of it allowed more focus than you had when you still had five or six months worth of deployment. You were going to go out, you know, you weren't sitting there thinking about awards when you're going out that afternoon on another mission.

• 2:06:01Jocko Willink?

  Well, I look forward to, I look forward to seeing that happen. And I, there's no more clear case. I mean, this is, this is a clear as it comes.

• 2:06:14Jocko Willink?

  You say this while holding an angel ceremony for quick. Our brigade commander, Colonel Sean McFarland, asked me how he could help. I need soldiers, sir, was all I could muster. He saw the pain in my voice and my eyes. I was barely holding on without breaking down.

• 2:06:34Jocko Willink?

  This conversation led me to meet and serve alongside one of the best human beings I would ever meet, Private David E. Dietrich.

• 2:06:43Jocko Willink?

  Is that how you say it?

• 2:06:43Speaker 01

  Dietrich.

• 2:06:44Jocko Willink?

  Dietrich. From Marysville, Pennsylvania.

• 2:06:49Jocko Willink?

  The night Dietrich arrived, the radio operator woke me up and told me there was a new soldier there. My first impression of Dietrich was solid. He looked like a running back with his strong, short stature and broad shoulders. He was obviously wide-eyed, confused, and I'm sure scared like the rest of us were when we first arrived in combat. I felt good about David until I asked him a question. It could be because Captain Wagner had put a bug in my ear and maybe I had formulated an opinion already, but I immediately sensed something different. While we were talking, it was as if I could see his mind trying to comprehend what I was saying. First, his eyes would look a little blank, then there would be an awkward silence, then he would answer slowly. Was it nerves? I've been told that I can have an intimidating stare and demeanor. And again, I was withdrawing emotionally at this time, plus I was the senior enlisted

• 2:07:34Jocko Willink?

  person in our unit. Whatever the reason was for his behavior, I didn't have a good feeling about it. I assigned him to First Platoon.

• 2:07:42Jocko Willink?

  And they were the meanest, hairiest, and most complex, or to go out on some of the meanest, hairiest, most complex missions, they would get Private Dietrich ready. Dietrich would stay back from missions while First Platoon was gone and remain with the HQ section or me when I was not on mission. When First Platoon returned, Dietrich went back with the platoon to learn more. So you got focused, like you met this kid and you're like, are we gonna get this kid trained up? You didn't send him in the field immediately because you could see he had, he needed some time. You actually ended up sending him to Behavioral Health to see what his deal with was, and they run a bunch of tests on him.

• 2:08:22Jocko Willink?

  And to ensure he was mentally fit and his cognitive skills were up to par, this took time. In the meantime, Dietrich became everyone's little brother and my personal helper.

• 2:08:34Speaker 01

  My battle buddy.

• 2:08:38Jocko Willink?

  They come back. Behavioral Health came back and stated that David was fit for the military and did not see any obstacles to serving. They noted that he'd had assessments done in basic training and those conclusions were the same as theirs. They did caution that he was a slow learner, but the method we used to teach him was appropriate. They also mentioned that he'd explained how much this unit already meant to him and that he respected and loved me. That caught me off guard, but I understood why it was said. David was constantly complaining about staying back from missions to train, but he vowed to behavioral health that he would show us he was ready.

• 2:09:13Jocko Willink?

  This was around October or November. So you're working with him. You get the feedback. Look, he's a little bit of a slow learner, but he's got the cognitive capacity to get the job done.

• 2:09:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, they say he's good to go. Uh, like I say, everybody learns differently. He needed hands on. And, you know, we were trying to do our due diligence and again, whether it was the rear D telling me something was off, uh, the initial conversation and we had a policy just making sure when the platoon said they're ready to go out, they went out. And this was the same steps with Dietrich. We were just making sure and we took the extra step with behavioral health. And it took a little longer and it took a little bit more hands on and he became my battle buddy when first platoon was on mission.

• 2:10:06Jocko Willink?

  And the thing is, it's not like you're, I mean, you, you gotta be able to count on your soldiers. And if you got a guy you can't count on, you're not just putting him at risk, you're putting everybody at risk. So you don't go, oh, well, I'll just go ahead and roll the dice on this one. Like it's not the, that's not the move you're gonna make.

• 2:10:24Jocko Willink?

  He became known as Heisman because of his love for football. David could talk about football for days if you let him and he pulled the Heisman pose all the time.

• 2:10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. He had to shut him up. He had to shut him up.

• 2:10:39Jocko Willink?

  Uh, and you guys are doing like a battle drills with him with what different weapon systems, just Humvees, learning how to do everything and testing him out over and over again.

• 2:10:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct. I put him on every weapon system, every communication equipment. We, we had everything, maps.

• 2:10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Glass house drills, you know, clearing houses, entering a house, everything that I could think of or first platoon could think of, we put him through every drill he would need to do in combat.

• 2:11:11Jocko Willink?

  And he got them.

• 2:11:13Speaker 01

  I would say technically and tactically, skill wise, he was one of the best ones out there at the end of those two to three months.

• 2:11:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you say David passed the test with flying colors and was ready for missions. I'll never regret that decision, no matter how much it hurts.

• 2:11:34Jocko Willink?

  Mission comes down. The mission from Colonel McFarland required us to go into an area and figure out where a famous enemy sniper was. The sniper was, would most likely target and kill US soldiers as they establish new combat outposts. Unfortunately, the marine unit sectioned off this part of town with barriers and there was no way in or out for vehicles. We were about to build another cop on this area's edge, the last hurdle of enemy territory before taking back control of the entire city.

• 2:12:05Speaker 01

  This was it?

• 2:12:05Jocko Willink?

  Was this up by firecracker or something?

• 2:12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, this was it.

• 2:12:08Jocko Willink?

  Cop firecracker. It had taken almost six months of constant fighting to reach this point. We were nearly done.

• 2:12:15Jocko Willink?

  Twenty-eight December two thousand six, first platoon finished their checks and prepared to depart for their mission. They would infiltrate between twenty-three hundred and zero-three hundred and establish their sniper team and overwatch positions. I was the last man standing there on their way to leaving the compound. They filed by. And either a nod, smartass comment, or handshake greeted each soldier as they passed. Dietrich was near the end of the line and his eye protection was all messed up, crooked on his head. A ACH straps twisted. I stopped him and told him, "Fix your shit, Dietrich." He adjusted his eye pro and gave me the biggest smile I'd ever seen from him. He was excited and he was proud. He was a soldier.

• 2:12:57Jocko Willink?

  I reached out to slap him on the back as he passed, but he threw a curveball and turned and hugged me. A big, strong bear hug. Ask any soldier when the last, when they last hugged their first sergeant like that, most likely the answer is never.

• 2:13:15Jocko Willink?

  I'm proud of you, Dietrich. Listen to your NCOs and keep your eyes open.

• 2:13:21Jocko Willink?

  This is the happiest day of my life, were the last words David E. Dietrich would ever say to me. And I still believe those words.

• 2:13:33Jocko Willink?

  Once out on patrol, First Platoon established two small kill team positions overwatching where they thought the sniper would appear. Again, we got everything right about the mission planning, the houses we picked, the counter positions we found, etc. Everything was perfect.

• 2:13:47Jocko Willink?

  Until it wasn't.

• 2:13:51Jocko Willink?

  On the morning of 29 December 2006, Private First Class David E. Dietrich had started his observation shift with his NCO and soon noticed something strange happening in one of the houses we'd identified. Dietrich alerted his team that someone was setting up a potato sack or mattress a few feet away from a window in one of the houses we thought the sniper would use. This is the exact technique used to mask the sound or sight of fire. Dietrich saw it and reported it.

• 2:14:21Jocko Willink?

  Unfortunately, the sniper saw him move, and when Dietrich repositioned himself to get a better look, he was shot.

• 2:14:34Jocko Willink?

  Back at the Marine Base, I jumped up and put on my boots as I gathered information. We slept in our clothes and on mission, went on mission like this. It was only seconds before we were ready. I did not know who was hit or how bad it was. All I knew is the XO pointing at the map and telling me to get there. I would get the rest as I was moved to the Humvee. My driver specialist, Matthew Clayton, had the truck ready. Communications and GPS tracking systems were booted up.

• 2:15:08Jocko Willink?

  Meanwhile, the teams saw the enemy preparing for an attack on one of the houses. Captain O'Hare and Sergeant First Class Marco decided to pull both teams since they were under heavy fire now and had no way to protect the dismounted evacuation movement to the CCP.

• 2:15:25Jocko Willink?

  From Marine Base Camp to the CCP was about two and a half kilometers. From the CCP to First Platoon, point of injury in the Overwatch House was about 750 meters. The teams evacuated David under fire and with complete kit on for almost 800 meters. This was no easy task and it was daytime. First Platoon made the right decision to pull the other team to help clear the path. Guys are going to work.

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and uh, yeah, one, you know, a daytime, under fire, you know, cover and move situation. With, uh, you know, dead gas, you know, dead soldier, 200 plus pounds with full kit on.

• 2:16:05Speaker 01

  Down streets, uh, that you can't get vehicles through at that time. It's not a good situation. And then, you know, you have to trust your, your subordinate leaders to make those calls to pull the other team. Especially if they're, you know, supporting fires and they can't cover the entire move. So they made the right call to pull the team. You know, so it's, you know, for that aspect of it is exactly right. You know, with Dietrich, uh, he was ready for the mission. I said, I will have personal feelings about should I, you know, told them to send him to Iraq, you know? The rear detachment commander had doubts.

• 2:16:50Speaker 01

  I made a decision as an enlisted person to tell an officer, send them, I'll make the call. I will live with that, uh, for the rest of my life. I had no regrets about him going on the mission. I, I stand by it, uh, but I'll live with the decision and bring him to Iraq.

• 2:17:12Speaker 01

  Because the rear detachment commander had no problems with me say, send the one eyed guy to Iraq. But I had a problem with saying, say Dietrich.

• 2:17:21Jocko Willink?

  Explain that one, the one eyed guy, you had a blind, uh, guy, blind, literally blind in one eye.

• 2:17:25Speaker 01

  We had a guy show up to the unit, blind in one eye. And he had to tilt his eye to read papers. Uh, and the army's like, yeah, he's good to go. And I'm like, this guy, this guy can't be combat arms. And then the army's like, hey, what's?

• 2:17:41Speaker 01

  Let's med board them and change MOSs and then they tried to make a truck driver and I'm like, this guy can't even drive. He can't scan his side of the truck. He can only be a vehicle commander. So at least he can scan that side of the truck. And then he got kicked out of truck driving school on day one and sent him back to us. We put him in the supply. And then I told him, I said, send that guy out to Iraq. We'll put him in supply and then we'll use him on missions if we have to, which we had to. So there's, there's stuff I'll, I'll live with going on there. But Dietrich was ready for the mission and found the sniper. We, we had everything right. The sniper

• 2:18:21Speaker 01

  was better. And he said, there's stuff that you live with and the enemy gets a vote and they voted. And then Dietrich, you know, how many people come up and hug you, Jocko? You know, we're not talking a bro hug. You know, like, hey, bro, like this guy, bear hug. I love you hug.

• 2:18:41Speaker 01

  And I believe this was the happiest day of his life. Now, obviously, hours later, not. But he became a soldier and he did exactly what he wanted to achieve in life of serving his country. And he served it with honor. And he achieved his goal, something he fought hard, growing up as a young man, with all the obstacles he had. And I'm proud to say I served next to him. And when I went back to his hometown to tell his story, his town did not understand the family he came to know in us. And we, I did not know the community that, that honored him

• 2:19:26Speaker 01

  after his death. So it was a closure on two sides. But Dietrich was a soldier and I'm proud to have served next to him. But that, that evacuation, man, that's, that's a tough evacuation. It tells you the toughness and it talks about what you, what you do under fire. It's tough.

• 2:19:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, um.

• 2:19:52Jocko Willink?

  I mean, you write about it here in the, in the book, this, this evacuation is chaotic. And you, you're, like you said, you're daytime, you're under attack. And by the way, the enemy knows when they've got a little bit of an upper hand. They know when they wound a guy, they know, and they're gonna bring it. Like when they, when they hit a vehicle, vehicle is down, they're gonna come hard because they know they've, they've got you on your heels. Same thing here. Like, oh, we, we got, they see that wounded guy. They know that you're on your heels. They know that there's gonna be vehicles trying to get in there. Like, they are gonna bring it. And, and that's what happens here.

• 2:20:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, you got a poleless litter. So you got one dead soldier. A poleless litter carried by four more soldiers that can't shoot back. Trying to carry him. And now you, so you've already taken five people out of the fight. And yeah, out of 10 to 12 coming down, and they have all their guns on you. And they're trying to run up the street with at least five alleys that they're trying to shoot at you. And we can't get vehicles down as I'm trying to get a tank to move a barrier out of the way.

• 2:21:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they just don't, don't hear you. Classic World War II scenario. Like you're like, hey, banging on the tank. Like, hey, help us. They don't hear you.

• 2:21:10Jocko Willink?

  Going to the book here, I saw the teams about 500 meters from me. I foolishly left my Humvee by itself next to a tank that never answered and began running toward my soldiers. I reached the first intersection. The teams were only a block away. I, so I popped a red smoke grenade and kept an eye west down the side alley for enemy. The teams were taking fire as they crossed their last intersection. Sergeant Gonzalez, Staff Sergeant Gonzalez, one of the best combat proven leaders I'd ever seen, was the lead element in front of the evacuation team. "They're shooting at you," I screamed as he ran with four soldiers carrying Dietrich on the litter behind him. "First Sergeant, you're getting shot at," he screamed back as I realized rounds were hitting all around me. I had messed up again, focused on my soldiers running toward me.

• 2:21:51Jocko Willink?

  I stopped paying attention to my sector. I began returning fire upon realizing my stupidity. The teams cleared their intersection and only had my intersection to go. Just then, out of nowhere, a Humvee pulled up to my corner and began unloading their machine gun into enemy positions. It was a fantastic sight and to this day, we have no idea how they got to us. Do you ever figure out who that is?

• 2:22:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it was the 16th Engineers.

• 2:22:16Jocko Willink?

  Outstanding.

• 2:22:17Speaker 01

  The easiest way to say it, the cop is off to my left. It would have been my east, but the left. And on that part of the alley, they had somehow maneuvered around the cop as they were building the barriers and come up with the 50 cal on the Humvee and they just come from my left to the right as they're running from you to me and come right in between us and they just unloaded. I mean, there's times where, you know, you've seen in TV shows or movies or whatever, you're just like, ah, and that was the moment, like, he unloaded and you're like, oh my gosh.

• 2:22:51Jocko Willink?

  That 50 cal is a little bit of a game changer in the street.

• 2:22:55Speaker 01

  I don't think he left, let up on the butterfly. It was one burst of 100 rounds and the guys crossed behind him and it was beautiful.

• 2:23:03Jocko Willink?

  With the machine gun raining fire down, the evacuation teams could cross behind them and to me, we tackled the last 50 to 75 meters to my vehicle and loaded Dietrich into the backseats, which were laid flat. "What do you want me to do?" I asked Clayton. "Do you know the way?" I still tried to catch my breath. "Yes, then fucking go." And off we went by ourselves through the streets of Ramadi, for about 3 kilometers to the main camp and to our medical teams. Specialist Clayton got us back to the back gate of Camp Ramadi. I had warned the base camp security we were coming through with casualties, so the gate was open. We flew past them to Charlie Med. Charlie Med is the medical unit which provides higher level of care and has surgeons to treat casualties.

• 2:23:48Jocko Willink?

  We pulled up and the medical teams took over getting David into the field hospital. I passed all the information along to the medics and doctors and got on the radio to update our XO and to find out what was happening with the rest of the troop.

• 2:24:02Jocko Willink?

  The platoons returned safely to the Marine Base Camp without further injury or firefight.

• 2:24:08Jocko Willink?

  I went back to the field aid station just as the doctor declared David dead. I dealt with plenty of death and gruesome injuries and the doctors and medics knew me well, but this hit hard.

• 2:24:20Jocko Willink?

  The morgue is positioned beside Charlie Med for obvious reasons, and they transported David there. The morgue personnel would clean David up and prepare him for movement out of the country.

• 2:24:32Jocko Willink?

  Then I would be called to identify the body and sign some paperwork. My crew had already alerted the troop headquarters, so they began collecting David's belongings for inventory and shipment home while his brother's armors were still out. I'm not sure if this was the optimal procedure, but we'd learned previously it was the best way for our troop to deal with loss.

• 2:24:55Jocko Willink?

  I had identified fallen soldiers before, but when the person came to get me, I physically couldn't raise myself off the bench outside the morgue. Right then, Colonel McFarland, simply the best senior leader I have ever served under, approached and sat next to me.

• 2:25:14Jocko Willink?

  "First Sergeant, take your time, but when ready, I need you to identify the body," the morgue assistant repeated.

• 2:25:23Jocko Willink?

  "I can't. Please don't make me do this. I can't." I began to cry.

• 2:25:31Jocko Willink?

  "Where do I sign?" said Colonel McFarland.

• 2:25:35Jocko Willink?

  "I will never be able to repay him for his leadership."

• 2:25:40Jocko Willink?

  "He did what I could no longer do."

• 2:25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's tough. There's a... So I briefly talked about it earlier, you know, about my corporal who I saw battle fatigue and I didn't understand it. I understood it right there. Twenty-nine December, inside, I broke. I mean, I physically could not stand up.

• 2:26:14Speaker 01

  I mean, I tried. Everything just hit.

• 2:26:20Speaker 01

  I can't, to this day, I can't explain why or how or what I could not stand up. And all I did, I just, I was crying. All the medics were crying. They knew me. I mean, I, to this day, I can't even explain how the, all the medics, what, everything they saw in that Charlie Med and how they dealt with all that day in, day out.

• 2:26:47Speaker 01

  And I don't know if Colonel McFarlane, whatever, remembers stuff like this, but you know, we do, or I do. And at one moment, just saying, I'll sign, I don't think he'll ever know Dietrich. But what he did for me, I will never forget. Even in, me as a leader couldn't stand up that day. I, I know what he did. But I, I couldn't, I mean, I was with him when he died. I took him back. But I, I couldn't go into the morgue and inside I broke that day.

• 2:27:25Speaker 01

  Even though within minutes, I had to go back and lead 50 other soldiers to get, as they were coming back, they saw none of it. The only people who saw that was me, Colonel McFarlane, the morgue, the medics, and my driver and gunner. No one else saw. Five minutes later, it was over and I, I had to go lead the troop again. But I physically broke inside. Like that was the moment.

• 2:27:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then you had to put it back on. You had to put it back together.

• 2:28:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you had to survive.

• 2:28:07Jocko Willink?

  You know, mu- much of this book, you are explaining the heroes you got to work with. And you, you, you definitely lay some, some of that out here.

• 2:28:19Jocko Willink?

  Especially as Matthew Clayton, you were amazing. I'm so proud of you. You gave, I gave you shit the entire deployment and constantly pushed you, but you were a true hero that day. You should have been recognized with an award for valor in your combat action badge, and I failed you, my friend. No one could have done what you did. You were brave and I love you. Doc Rob Black. There was nothing you could have done to save David, and yet you did everything humanly possible to change that outcome. You kept David alive until we made it to the hospital. So many people need to learn how hard it is to learn, how hard the combat medical badge is to earn. It's the only combat badge that requires you to perform duties under fire, and you did that. You would distinguish yourself that day and many more during our tour, and I love you.

• 2:29:09Jocko Willink?

  First platoon, you followed your extraordinary leaders, Captain O'Hare and Sergeant First Class Marco, and you fought bravely that day. You cleared the streets of the enemy as they were forming an attack on you, and you evacuated your men under fire with precision and courage. Engineer Humvee Crew, you saved us from further injury and stopped a possible ambush as we evacuated. You did your unit proud. Thank you. Marines, we love serving with you, and I proudly display my one and two MEF patches when the Army pisses me off. We both made mistakes that day, but we would fight with you again.

• 2:29:49Jocko Willink?

  As you've seen through these stories, I made many mistakes in my career, but I am proud of the soldier David became. I should have done some things differently, but in hindsight, that doesn't save him. I will see you in Valhalla, my friend, and drink with you in Fiddler's Green soon enough.

• 2:30:12Speaker 01

  So, you know, one Clayton, he was my driver. He had my rule. I hate leaning. I'm afraid of tipping over, and he learned I do not like to lean, and he got that down. And I did. I rode him hard. He was a commo guy. I rode him hard. Three times in two and a half years, three years of combat, I found myself alone from stupid decisions. Twice in Ramadi. And that last time Clayton was a driver and got us back. That's on long distance on Route Michigan, as you know, in enemy territory. I don't know if I could have navigated his back under that

• 2:30:51Speaker 01

  condition while trying to help Dietrich and Clayton did. And I will forever be grateful for that. He was perfected getting us back with me saying nothing. It was absolutely amazing. And then you met Rob Black earlier and I can't wait till he comes on.

• 2:31:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're gonna have a little chat with Rob Black.

• 2:31:16Speaker 01

  That's a funny guy, man. You gotta be careful. That is a funny guy, but the stuff he did and saw.

• 2:31:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and he was like a 20, 21, 22 year old kid back then. That was his first deployment.

• 2:31:25Speaker 01

  Correct. I mean, the stuff.

• 2:31:27Jocko Willink?

  Welcome to the jungle.

• 2:31:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, the stuff and just the aging of them, young boys to men, is just amazing. So I am forever grateful of what I witnessed and saw and who I was thankful to serve with and what we asked them to do. Or even as leaders, sometimes, again, I don't pat myself on the back probably as much. And I'm not trying to be egotistic because I don't give myself credit. I give myself more guilt than I do credit. But I was learning to be a first sergeant in the second deployment. I learned from watching the first one before. I was learning to be a platoon sergeant the first deployment. I never had second chances at any position I was ever in. Every NCO rank I was in, except for

• 2:32:12Speaker 01

  a command sergeant major, I was always deployed in some theater or deployment of some sort.

• 2:32:19Speaker 01

  I never had second chances at those positions. So you're always learning how to lead. So you're not going to get it right. So I was always amazed at how well people performed around us. And I had to, I should have said thank you more. So I'm glad I'm able to try and get it right now.

• 2:32:41Jocko Willink?

  Well, again, the book's got all kinds of, so many details in it. I want to close out the book and we'll talk about some of the stuff that's in the book. You know, but I do want to close out the book with this section. It's fast forward in quite a bit, but from my retirement ceremony, my battle buddy, Brigadier General Sean Bernabe.

• 2:33:04Speaker 01

  Bernabe.

• 2:33:05Jocko Willink?

  Bernabe.

• 2:33:06Speaker 01

  Great man.

• 2:33:07Jocko Willink?

  Asked for pictures of me to show as a slideshow. Instead, we only showed pics of my family and my soldiers. And it still brings happiness to my heart when I see those pictures or think of them. I have told only a few people about this, but my life is in extra innings now. I'm not meant to be alive, but here I am, still kicking somehow. When I was leaving R and R and heading back to Iraq in 2006. So this is.

• 2:33:32Speaker 01

  This is Ramadi.

• 2:33:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so you're in Ramadi and a lot of people don't know this, but especially the army, when you're on a one year or 14 or 15 month deployment, you get a break, a two week leave break to go home. Which I don't know how you guys do it, but you go home, you spend two weeks at home. And then you go right back into the fire. And that's what you're talking about here. When I was leaving R and R, when did you take R and R? What, what month was it?

• 2:34:00Speaker 01

  It was August. Right at the end, because I went during my R and R, I did Quick's memorial service in Germany. So it was at the end of August.

• 2:34:12Jocko Willink?

  So you had lost three soldiers. Prior to going home on R and R. And now you're going back. And you say, when I was leaving R and R and heading back to Ramadi in 2006, I wrote letters to my wife Solvig, my two boys Damian and Tristan. I was saying goodbye because I believed I would never see them again. In the letters, I told Solvig to move on and find someone who would love the boys as much as me and asked her not to marry another soldier. So they would have a dad that was around. I told Damian and Tristan how sorry I was that I couldn't be there to raise them.

• 2:34:50Jocko Willink?

  On the way to the base, I told Damian, who was only seven, that he was the man of the house and to be brave and strong to take care of Tristan, who was only one year old, and watch over their mama. I told him not to cry when I left because it was gonna be okay.

• 2:35:06Jocko Willink?

  When I got out of the car, I hugged my wife, who was sobbing, kissed Tristan, and knelt down to kiss and hug Damian, the man of the house now. Damian stayed brave and strong as his eyes watered and his lip quivered. I knew selfishly that if he cried, I might not get on the plane that day. I stood and turned as tears flowed from my eyes, and I walked away, never looking back for fear I would stop in my tracks. I just said goodbye to the three most precious people in my life. In that moment, I gave myself totally and fully to the army and my men, knowing I was going to die in Iraq.

• 2:35:50Jocko Willink?

  For whatever reason, I didn't die. And in some ways, I regret it. Not because I'm not thankful for what I have, but because the guilt of not bringing them all home alive while I got a second chance in life.

• 2:36:06Jocko Willink?

  This book is my final salute to those I served with. And I hope I made them proud and told their stories with accuracy and honesty. I love everyone with whom I served, and I am forever grateful for the opportunity to serve my country. I hope someone shares stories, more stories of our unit in Ramadi, Iraq, because there are many more details, and these soldiers deserve to have their stories told or shown on the screen. If you want more funny stories, I have plenty. These were just the tip of the iceberg. Take care of your soldiers and loved ones, and they will take care of you. Everything else will take care of itself.

• 2:36:48Jocko Willink?

  Until then, roll up your fucking sleeves and chop that shit up.

• 2:36:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:36:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the um. The idea of accepting death. I think when people ask me about Ramadi, I was like, yeah, well, pretty much accept you're gonna die. I know I was like, yeah, this is. This is what I signed up for. This is what we're doing.

• 2:37:18Jocko Willink?

  And I, and I think that is the.

• 2:37:25Jocko Willink?

  I think that. I think that's the best attitude to have. I really, I mean. I think if you're scared, if you're afraid of it, it's gonna be, I don't, I, I don't know how you surf. I don't know how you do that mentally. I mean, I guess you can't.

• 2:37:40Jocko Willink?

  But coming home after losing three soldiers. Doing memorial service, I bet your wife must have been horrified.

• 2:37:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, there, I mean, there's a lot of stuff I don't share with my wife. I mean, I don't even think, uh. She's tried to read the book. I'm like, no, don't read it.

• 2:37:58Speaker 01

  And after, like I said, getting wounded or the first phone call, like, have you heard about your wife? Recording. A lot of people don't know is she had a severe panic attack my first deployment and had to get rushed to the emergency room. And my son, Damian, was put in the back of an ambulance.

• 2:38:17Speaker 01

  And thankfully, we had our parents nearby. To help take care. While I was still deployed. So I was always very careful what I shared and what I didn't, but you are exactly correct. And accepting death is the word I have come up with now, because my mom's like, oh, you can't say that. And I'm like, Mom, it's true. Like, and if, the ones who have been there understand what you're talking about. And I've tried to, soldiers come back from R and R, I've tried to tell them like, you have to focus. On the mission. You can't be thinking about that R and R. If you're thinking about what you just left, you're not gonna make it home. And.

• 2:39:00Speaker 01

  It's horrible to say, but it's true. And I'm like, you have to let the FRG take care of your family. You have to let family members take care of your family. This is your family. This is your fight. Nothing else can matter right now. If you have any chance of going home, we have to fight the enemy. And I believed I was not going to go home. And I accepted it. I absolutely accepted it. And I'm thankful I'm here. I mean, and there's guilt in it as a leader that soldiers didn't. You regret decisions. You look at everything, huh, this

• 2:39:38Speaker 01

  and that. And I have been in counseling for 15 plus years, going through everything just to accept where I am at, and beat depression, and beat suicidal ideations, and look at everything, and to enjoy life, and in, and what I have around me, to get to that point. But I accepted death. There is no doubt. And I am on, I'm in extra innings. And I'm thankful for that. And I'm trying to make a difference. And that was some of the purpose of the book. The book is therapy. And the book is making sure that they are remembered, and to honor them correctly, and award them the stuff that we missed and got wrong. And

• 2:40:23Speaker 01

  that was the purpose behind that. And that was, I know we haven't mentioned yet, but one of the things I wanted to do with the book, was, I had three rules in the book. One was, in no way did I want to dishonor their story. So did tell, by telling funny stories, would I dishonor them. And then in no way did I, I want to dishonor the army in any way, shape, or form. And then I didn't want to dishonor the NCO Corps that I love so much. So I gave to many mentors, and like, this is the three criteria. If any of them is a yes, then it's not getting published or written. And they came back like, no, Dan, I think you, you're okay. And we love it. And please publish it. So I was like, all

• 2:41:08Speaker 01

  right, let's continue to move forward. And I want to make sure that they're recognized.

• 2:41:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so it's awesome. And you do a great job. I mean, you've got a whole section for each one of the soldiers that you lost. You you either got input from their families or you went and researched to give a description of who they are. You know, I always tell people, these aren't, a soldier's not just a soldier. They're a person. They have loved ones. They have families. They have dreams. They have hopes and they sacrificed all that. And you do a beautiful memorial to each one of those soldiers. The book is just, it's just fantastic. And another huge part of the book that I think is going to be really helpful is,

• 2:41:51Jocko Willink?

  it seemed like it was your quest and during your time in was once you realized that, oh, I got some issues, you got your issue, you got help with your issues. And you wanted to make sure that every, that other people could get that help as well. And you kind of described what happened. You came home from that deployment. Of course, we've, it changed a lot. You know, I came home from that deployment like you, just came, got on a freaking metal tube in Ramadi. And then 20 hours later, I'm back here in San Diego, walking down Ocean Beach Newport Avenue, going to get a hamburger and there's people walking around and like, I'm looking at little pieces of trash on the ground and like, it's, it's a, it's, it's a significant change of environment.

• 2:42:37Jocko Willink?

  So you come back, you end up, and again, this stuff is in the book, but you end up in an ROTC unit. You end up going out and you're doing some training in Fort Lewis, Washington. Some guy gets mouthy with you, with one of your buddies.

• 2:42:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't see me, but to another buddy.

• 2:42:51Jocko Willink?

  Gets mouthy with one of your buddies.

• 2:42:52Speaker 01

  A Ranger bad guy.

• 2:42:53Jocko Willink?

  You freaking, you, you, you have to rough this dude up. And I think you said, you said you believed your past the statute of limitations now where you can no more.

• 2:43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, put my hands around his neck. We'll just put it like that.

• 2:43:07Jocko Willink?

  You end up going to see, you go into the, to the, whatever.

• 2:43:12Speaker 01

  Behavior health.

• 2:43:12Jocko Willink?

  The behavior health. They hand you a bunch of drugs. You fill out a questionnaire for an hour with 200 questions. By reading a questionnaire, they hand you a bunch of drugs.

• 2:43:23Speaker 01

  Here's your bag.

• 2:43:25Jocko Willink?

  Most people say, okay, cool. They take the drugs. They numb their brain. They're not making any progress. You said, wait, how are you giving me these drugs? And they say, because we read your questionnaire, you're like, what are you talking about? And so you went a little bit Richter and said, I better see a doctor right now. And luckily, this, uh, this woman doctor sat you down. She talked to you for 15 minutes and she canceled.

• 2:43:49Speaker 01

  Cancelled all her appointments. I loved it.

• 2:43:51Jocko Willink?

  She said she got, she, she had her work cut out with you. She said she canceled the rest of them. So you, what, what do you, what happens? Cause I know you talked to her for like 12 hours a day for two or three days.

• 2:44:02Speaker 01

  Two days.

• 2:44:03Jocko Willink?

  What is she talking to you about? Is it basically the first time that you got to decompress and let some of this emotion, which you as a leader had kept bottled up? Is that, is that what, what happens?

• 2:44:14Speaker 01

  No, that was exactly it. It would, we went from everything from talk, like David Dietrich is in front of you right now, to how do you feel about yourself right now, to just talking about life, to talking about your kids. I mean, we went, we explored everything, uh, marriage, kids, career, life, combat.

• 2:44:40Jocko Willink?

  How did you suddenly feel like it was okay to talk about this? Did you know that you needed to? Did she just have a good approach?

• 2:44:46Speaker 01

  I think it's because she was a stranger and I was in a, a state facility across the country of somebody who I'd probably never see again. Uh, and I felt, and she was easy to talk to and I trusted her immediately. And it was almost like confession. Uh, and I felt I was going to walk out and I was going to be healed, but I trusted her.

• 2:45:15Jocko Willink?

  Now, was she giving you, is she giving you any guidance or are you just pretty much sorting stuff out as you're saying it? If she's saying like, well, it's okay to feel like that, or here's another perspective, like what, what, what is she actually saying to you?

• 2:45:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. I can't remember who the, the famous prophet singer is, but she basically said, it's okay not to be okay.

• 2:45:38Speaker 01

  That's basically what she was saying and.

• 2:45:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then we started exploring plans and then she's like, I think you need in treat or yeah, in treatment facility. And I was like, ah, all right, let's keep negotiating here. I was like, look, Doc, I, I, I'm trusting you by pouring my heart out. So you're going to trust me and I don't need in treatment.

• 2:46:00Jocko Willink?

  You feel, but did you feel better after the first day?

• 2:46:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I felt a weight come off of me immediately. It all came out and I felt relieved. It was like weight off my shoulders that I wasn't healed, but I felt a weight come off and I knew what it is. I recognized I needed help. That's the end result is I need help. I am not okay, but I need help. And I didn't care about my career at that time. Uh, nothing mattered, except that I needed help and I needed it for me and I

• 2:46:40Speaker 01

  needed it for my family. And if my career continued after that, that's a bonus. But it was for me and it was for my family.

• 2:46:52Jocko Willink?

  One of the things that I've talked about over the years is, um, for me, for whatever reason, uh, when people died, I've, I've given a lot of eulogies, right? So you saw me give one, uh, for Mark and that, that was, I guess it might've been the second one I did. I had a friend get, uh, killed years ago. Uh, another SEAL buddy of mine, Grizz. But, you know, when you sit down to write, uh, a eulogy, you know, you're expressing and going through all the emotions and, you know, trying to keep your freaking keyboard from short circuiting because you're crying as you write the thing. And I feel like that was very helpful for

• 2:47:34Jocko Willink?

  me. I didn't know at the time, but just looking back, you know, sitting there and writing down, uh, what, what's going through my head, how much I cared about this individual, what they meant to me, how awesome they were, what I'm going to miss. I could just processing all that and writing it down. It seems to me to be a very helpful thing and it seems like that for me was very similar to what, what you eventually did here.

• 2:48:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:48:02Jocko Willink?

  To sit down and tell this woman how you felt, what you were feeling, um, going through those things.

• 2:48:08Speaker 01

  And I made a mental note that what I felt coming out of there, I would make sure every soldier I came in contact knew it was okay to get help.

• 2:48:23Speaker 01

  And I would never be ashamed to say I was getting helped. Like I knew it, like I knew what I, when I went in was different than the way I came out and I would make sure every soldier I came in contact would know that. And I was amazed at how many leaders discouraged me from saying that. And, and I refused to back down and I'm telling you, I saw changes in soldiers' lives as a command sergeant major by actively showing them I was going to behavioral health and then watching our numbers get better when it came to domestic violence and suicide

• 2:49:05Speaker 01

  ideations and overall depression by them going to seek help. And they're like, oh, your numbers are going up to seek help. I'm like, you're damn right they are, but look what numbers are going down. I'm like, I'd rather them. I'm like, those are going up, but those are going down. I'll take that all day long. It means it's working.

• 2:49:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point.

• 2:49:29Jocko Willink?

  Did you, so did they ever put you on the, on like the meds? Did you ever take them or did the, was the counseling good enough?

• 2:49:34Speaker 01

  It did, uh, and it, there was one time I was on 17 medications as we tried to work through this stuff. And then I'm like, like this is crazy. My, my head's a fog. I'm not feeling right. And then we just started working them off. And I said, you gotta find, and my therapy has always been.

• 2:49:57Speaker 01

  I want to do everything I can not to take medication. So let's work that first. And then last resort would be a medication. So you show me every technique that requires no medication before we go to medication. Medication will not be the first answer. And that's how I do everything now. And now I'm on no medication.

• 2:50:17Jocko Willink?

  But some people need it.

• 2:50:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's just me. Yeah, that's just me. But when it comes to like PTSD, depression, et cetera. I'm generally on no medication. There's other techniques I'm using.

• 2:50:33Jocko Willink?

  And, and is this the other, like, what are the other techniques?

• 2:50:36Speaker 01

  To this day, I, I am counseling every two weeks. I just switched from every week to every two weeks. And then you have the mindfulness, the other stuff that we go through.

• 2:50:47Jocko Willink?

  What does mindfulness look like?

• 2:50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, the breathing techniques or, or whether you're, you know, you're going through the thought therapy or the sensory therapies of thinking, you know, with your breathing and, you know, your, your thinking that calm yourself down. I had a problem with anxiety the last, last summer. So I was working through that anxiety stuff, work related or professional related that we worked through that required medication, but then we worked how to get that down. That required, it had physical symptoms related to it. So we worked through that stuff. So again, you know, it's still a roller coaster. But right now, you know, we're working, but I have a counselor every two weeks, every Friday, every two weeks.

• 2:51:32Jocko Willink?

  And do you find yourself talking about, still talking about combat? Or do you, do you feel like you, you're talking about other things now?

• 2:51:42Speaker 01

  What I try and talk about now is, like I said, I've had two soldiers commit suicide from this unit, Ramadi.

• 2:51:51Speaker 01

  I've had four soldiers commit suicide, not directly under me while I served, but since that have served with me. So suicide is continuing to always be an issue. So I continue to talk depression and seeking treatment or help or reaching out. My phone number is in the book. Whether you want to spam me, text me, I don't care. Call me, whoever. I mean, I've had two soldiers who do not know me, call me just to talk. And I'm like, I will always answer the phone.

• 2:52:32Speaker 01

  If you need help. Suicide is not the answer. And let's figure out what we can do. So.

• 2:52:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you mentioned the.

• 2:52:42Speaker 01

  I talk about that more now.

• 2:52:44Jocko Willink?

  Jose Diaz and Jared Rogers.

• 2:52:46Speaker 01

  Jared Rogers.

• 2:52:47Jocko Willink?

  These are two of your soldiers that that killed themselves. 2018 in October and 2021. How did you hear about them? Like, what does the messaging look like? How did you find out that this had happened?

• 2:53:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. So a lot of it's social media, whether it's group pages or, you know, unit pages that we have on social media or staying in contact as we go down through. You know, like Jared Rogers was our commo sergeant. Clayton, my driver, worked for Rogers as a supervisor. But Jared Rogers was Clint's stories, like best friend, you know, in the during headquarters section together and they always quoting Joe Dirt. And I always get pissed. I'm like, stop quoting it. And they're always having fun. And, you know,

• 2:53:39Speaker 01

  we asked a commo support soldier to man a 50 cal gun and get in the middle of a fight. And fight he did. And like, we asked him to do stuff that, you know, our combat soldiers are doing. And then they're like, everybody's a soldier. Yeah, got it. Got it. But we asked him to do stuff that were tough and he saw stuff that some soldiers just don't see and he battled stuff and I can't tell you all the circumstances why he took his life, but he took his life and Jose Diaz was a young soldier, same again, you know,

• 2:54:19Speaker 01

  circumstances at a young age ended up taking his life and you know, through social media, we heard about it and it's sad and Jared Rogers, ex-wife, in fact, I said, the proceeds of the book, none of the proceeds of the book go to me. All the proceeds, I make or we make no money on this book. The proceeds all go to scholarships or awards in the name of the fallen soldiers or from the families awarded to others. So like Jared Rogers has a memorial award that we're going to award on the anniversary of his death this coming

• 2:55:01Speaker 01

  fall. His son will choose who gets the award in his name to honor his father. So through his ex-wife who's battling cancer right now, his son will choose who gets an award named after Jared. So that's the purpose of the book now is the name of stuff where Chris Strickland, who lost a hand and blind in one eye, his son is named after Bradley Best, who lost his life. His son has a race car or drives a race car coming up in amateur

• 2:55:42Speaker 01

  circuit and the race car number is 84, August 4th and his son is named Brad after Bradley Best. So stuff like that, we have an award named after that that we'll award. So it's stuff like that. So you know, that's how we keep and we heard about the death. So just keep them remembered.

• 2:56:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You know, you mentioned these guys, these kids being young and You know, there's like, there's dark, if you're a human being, there's gonna be, there's gonna be bad things, it's gonna be darkness, there's gonna be, you're gonna see evil things, but to get this level of concentration of fear and horror and death and, and terrible wounds, to see that over and over again, and then go into that fire over and over and over and over and over and over again, over time, like eventually that darkness can start to be a pretty, a lot bigger than it should be in your world, and uh,

• 2:56:49Jocko Willink?

  it just seems like if, if you're not careful, it, it can take over, you know, um, that's another part that you mentioned in the book, and again, this is just hitting some, some other sections that you talk about is, you know, you, you had some physical issues as well, so you, you're, you're dealing with your, like your, your mental health type stuff, you ended up having some physical issues too, that, that sort of came out, um, obviously had some injuries, but you also ended up the situation where you're talking about your, you're like, you would gain thirty pounds in a month,

• 2:57:28Jocko Willink?

  then you'd lose thirty pounds the next month, you're, you, you were all over the place, and you end up getting, I guess, would you call it fired, when you, when they pulled you off the list there? So you're about to be a, a command sergeant major, and they pull you off the list, and eventually you figure, eventually you get a medical review, and they figure out you got some medical issues.

• 2:57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct. You know, so again, if you, if you grew up in a, you know, like I said, I started my career in the early nineties, you didn't go to sick call, you know, I have a broken toe and a broken finger that never got treated, because you didn't go, he's just like, yeah, I got a bent finger, that, they're like, it is what it is, uh, I, I watched an NCO get fired, uh, because he went to sick call, they're like, you work at the gym now, brother, and I'm like, alright, I'm not ever going to sick call, uh, and that was the lesson in the early nineties, um, so you never went, and then, you know, as you're coming up, you know, you just never got seen. So like I said, even after coming back to Iraq the first time, all of a sudden they start

• 2:58:36Speaker 01

  doing tests on you like, you know, you know, this is what's wrong with you. And you're like, what? And oh, by the way, we're gonna do this. And now we gotta start scanning your brain every six months to check the spotting in the back of your brain. And you have some pretty serious bruising. And then, you know, you come back the second time. Next thing you know, you got, oh, by the way, you put your hands around somebody and you got severe PTSD and this is your anger issues. And now you need counseling and this and that. Oh, by the way, you know, now we're running tests and you're going up and down in weight. And you got some guy saying, hey, I'm pulling you from the command sergeant major. And eventually, you know, at first, you're like, oh, I blame everybody else. And I blame everybody else. And you don't accept responsibility for yourself. You know, and then you have to accept responsibility.

• 2:59:21Speaker 01

  Like, hey, I have to own this also. You know, there's laziness in there, too. But there's, there are, the army didn't, you know, this guy did mess up, too. And then all of a sudden, the doctor's like, no, man, there is something wrong with you. And you're like, oh, there is a reprieve. It's not just all me. And they figure it out. And you get some bad bedside manner doctor, just like bam, shot in the ass. Come back in two weeks and two weeks later, bam, shot in the ass. And all of a sudden, you're like, whoa, whoa. And you feel great. And next thing you know, man, I was a beast. I mean, I, I was looking good, feeling good, running marathons. And they figured it out. It was good, good time. Then they had to put me back on the list.

• 3:00:07Jocko Willink?

  And, and is that how you finished out your career?

• 3:00:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, sort of. So after that, I was selected for a nomative list. So general officer level. And I ended up going to Europe, sort of as general officer level.

• 3:00:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, nice.

• 3:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was a good, good finishing. And they, I was actually selected higher, but I chose retirement. Drop retirement. And they're like, I'm like, no, I'm retiring.

• 3:00:35Jocko Willink?

  What year did you retire?

• 3:00:37Speaker 01

  January 31, 2019. So six years ago.

• 3:00:42Jocko Willink?

  When, what was like, was there a, like a final straw that broke the camel's back in terms of deciding to write this book? Cause writing a book is a big undertaking. What was the thing that made you finally decide, all right, get him, get him out my computer and start writing?

• 3:00:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of funny, cause actually, no. Yeah, so I used to, so I worked for the army as a civilian after, and I'd run major conferences and I'd always heard the cattle, the cats and the conferences and I always tell a story to start a conference and I'd be telling some of these funny stories. Or sometimes I'd tell some of the sad stories. And I have people crying or laughing and everybody would push me like, dude, you gotta write this. And earlier, when I was going through the medical stuff, I was up at Fort Benning with another sergeant major. And again, me, you and Echo could sit around tonight drinking beers down at Coronado Island, whatever, watching the surf and we would just tell

• 3:01:38Speaker 01

  funny stories of our services and we would just be laughing. And each one of us would try and up each other with, and that's, me and the sergeant major would tell stories like that. And all of a sudden, people would come in every morning and start listening. But that's how the military is. We would just, all of us have a story. And I remember us, me and Greg looking at each other, I was like, man, we could, if 20 of us just put a story together, we'd each, we'd, we'd have a book. So the idea was always there. And then my buddies in Germany were like, Dan, you gotta write this. One weekend, I wrote it. One weekend.

• 3:02:15Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 3:02:15Speaker 01

  I wrote the entire thing and I sent it away. And I sent it, I did some Google research and I sent it to 10 publishing companies, you know, the excerpt or whatever, like here's 250 words or one chapter. Within five days, seven of them wrote backs that we want you.

• 3:02:32Jocko Willink?

  What chapter did you send? What excerpt? What story? Do you remember?

• 3:02:38Speaker 01

  Was it chop this shit up? It probably chopped that shit up. Yeah, it's probably the one, lead it off. And then by the end of the week, all 10. And then you go through the traditional hybrid. Yeah, I'm not gonna get all those details, but I had 10 out of 10 say we want you.

• 3:02:50Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 3:02:52Speaker 01

  And then, the idea was never to write a memoir. The idea, but they said, you gotta put it chronological.

• 3:02:58Jocko Willink?

  Makes sense.

• 3:03:00Speaker 01

  Because of the way, and I really felt, it kind of worked out because.

• 3:03:06Speaker 01

  You can see me go from naive, stupid, funny story to combat to broken, uh, finishing up. So you can see a transition that was unspoken when I first wrote it, but as I start talking about it or writing it, it's sort of, it just comes out that way.

• 3:03:28Jocko Willink?

  We were talking before we hit record about a movie that's coming out. It's called Warfare and it's, uh, my, my buddy Ray Mendoza, who was SEAL Team Five. And when we left in October of 2006, Ray Mendoza and their troop came in and took our place and they had a, they, they suffered significant casualties, including a guy named Elliot Miller on, um, it was November 19th.

• 3:03:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03:58Jocko Willink?

  So, and Elliot, you know, he, he got severely wounded, survived, thank God. But, um, I know you, you were talking about that, the, there's a trailer out for it right now. And, you know, I, I watched it and it's, it is, uh, it is very powerful trailer, but just the realism of it is pretty awesome. I know you said the first time you saw the trailer, you like shut it down.

• 3:04:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I stood up, walked, my family, uh, I put it on and I was like, hey, I think this is Ramadi. And, uh, I stood up and walked out halfway. It's, it's real.

• 3:04:41Speaker 01

  You know, I'll, I'll watch it and there's not,

• 3:04:45Speaker 01

  I can sit through almost everything that's related back. You know, there's thoughts and feelings and smells that will come, you know, there's stuff that reminds you of stuff. And I, just talking to you, I can picture Ramadi to this day, or in your book, you show MAP. Of Ramadi, I'm like, oh yeah, oh yeah, like I, I know it or talk about Mike Byman and stuff. Takes you right back to the stuff. But that trailer, I can tell it's accurate. The scenes, it's there.

• 3:05:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it looks like they did. And, and Ray's done a bunch of like movie type stuff and Ray is, is just a freaking awesome guy. Like just, he's just an awesome guy. He's, he's like quiet. He's, uh, he has really good reputation in the SEAL teams, obviously. And yeah, it's from what I've seen of it so far, it looks like it's going to be really, really powerful. And will give people the sense, some of the sense of what it was like, you know, as close as you can get.

• 3:05:53Jocko Willink?

  Without having things blow up right next to you.

• 3:05:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm sure he got it right. And I'm looking forward to seeing it.

• 3:06:01Jocko Willink?

  So what's next for you?

• 3:06:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like I said, so the way ahead, uh, right now, if I can talk about it real quick is like I said, right now, we're trying to do scholarships and awards for people, but I want to get stuff right. I want to recognize people. So like I, we have one soldier from our previous deployment, 2003. Was wounded. In fact, we took him to the green zone to the cache there. I took him, I could see his skull. He refused to be evac back to the States, stayed with us, redeployed and then self-medicated at Fort Lewis. And ended up getting, they court marshaled him for self-medicating.

• 3:06:42Speaker 01

  That unit did whatever they thought was right and court marshaled him, got a bad conduct discharge. So I'm working with him to get it overturned and get him a good conduct. Or honorable discharge. So he can get, uh, VA care. He can't get VA care right now. Now this is guys who served their country. So we last July tried to do that. We have another soldier from Ramadi. Who I didn't realize didn't get his Purple Heart because when he was getting seen at the cache, Joseph Rodriguez. Didn't want the female medic examine him, cut off his clothes and walked out. And I didn't realize it. Uh, so I have to fix that. So we're getting, he just admitted his Purple Heart.

• 3:07:26Speaker 01

  Uh, and then obviously Marquis quick. So there's stuff like that I want to fix. Uh, so I've sort of made it. My goal is to rectify some of this stuff. Uh, and then continue to give the awards like Regan Barr. I think he knows it, but I just wrote his uncle who was in Nebraska National Guard General. His, his uncle actually came out to Iraq when we're up north and pinned corporal on him. Uh, how cool is that? Have your uncle come out and pin corporal E4 on him. I just wrote his uncle a few days ago. I was like, hey, I'd like to name an award. Uh, so my goal is to continue to name awards and scholarships after these heroes. So they're never forgotten. Uh, I currently live in Virginia.

• 3:08:11Speaker 01

  Uh, I just resigned from federal government a few, few months ago. Uh, to look at different avenues, uh, my personal professional life, but I still continue to help the joint staff. Uh, as a military, uh, as a contractor, uh, which I love, uh, and looking at stuff serving our country. And then hopefully we go to this reunion.

• 3:08:36Jocko Willink?

  I was about to say.

• 3:08:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:08:37Jocko Willink?

  And what?

• 3:08:38Speaker 01

  Let's do this.

• 3:08:39Jocko Willink?

  We got this, we got this ready first 2006 reunion. It's happening. It's the 20 year anniversary. It's January of 2026. The planning is already underway. If you were there, you're invited. Uh, Gold Star families are invited and, and that would be awesome to see the Gold Star families there. Uh, you know, General McFarlane's on the case, you know, leading from the front as usual. But we've, we've already had a bunch of meetings. So anyone from any of those, from any branch, you know, whether you're Marine, Army, Navy, Air Force, every service was represented there. I don't know if the Coast Guard was represented there.

• 3:09:22Jocko Willink?

  They might've been. I forget, but if you were there, you're invited. Uh, Gold Star family is invited. So that's the next big thing for the Ready First Brigade Combat Team from, uh, Iraq at that time. So January of 26.

• 3:09:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Martin Luther King Weekend, I believe.

• 3:09:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:09:44Speaker 01

  That weekend.

• 3:09:45Jocko Willink?

  And it's going to be, it's going to be a couple, like maybe it's Friday, Saturday, and then I think it's those, the two big days. It's gonna be great to see everybody again, even it's been, it's been awesome. We've been jumping on these Zoom calls and it's, you know, it's like the battalion commanders are on there, some of the senior NCOs are on there and it's, it's just, it's just awesome to see everybody again and, and be talking, you know, to be talking about something that we can, uh, go and have a celebration as opposed to the old meetings that we used to have, which were a little bit more, uh, serious, a little bit more heavy content.

• 3:10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct. And again, honor what we did. I mean, remember they ran a 5K race just a few months from the sacrifices we did.

• 3:10:29Jocko Willink?

  They did indeed.

• 3:10:30Speaker 01

  How crazy.

• 3:10:30Jocko Willink?

  Right down Route Michigan.

• 3:10:31Speaker 01

  Route Michigan, 5K race.

• 3:10:33Jocko Willink?

  Unbelievable. It was so unbelievable. Uh, so is that get us up to speed? Is that where we're at?

• 3:10:39Speaker 01

  Yes, but I, I do have one thing.

• 3:10:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:10:41Speaker 01

  A little bit of surprise. So Cavalry, uh, has a tradition, uh, where we, we have, we wear Cavalry spurs and statues because we're pretty, we're pretty sexy. Uh, so when we're, when we're back in training, we go to a competition, uh, called spur ride. And if you complete it, you get silver spurs. When you're in combat, uh, against the enemy in a cavalry unit, you get gold spurs. So I reached across and talked to our commander, uh, and some other people and I brought with me a pair of combat spurs, uh, gold spurs for, uh, Lieutenant Commander at the time, Jocko Willnig, uh, to present to you today.

• 3:11:27Speaker 01

  With the promise that if you give me the names of all your SEAL team, uh, at the reunion, I will bring every certificate and combat spurs, uh, for all the members of SEAL Team Three, Task Force Bruiser, uh, to officially award all of them, uh, as a member of our team, the combat spurs, uh, with you. So I have them. I have brought them, my friend. Uh, they look a little used because they are mine.

• 3:11:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's awesome, man.

• 3:11:56Speaker 01

  But I couldn't think any better. So these are official gold combat spurs for what we did together, my friend.

• 3:12:03Jocko Willink?

  Outstanding, man. Outstanding. That's what an honor that is. And it was just so awesome to serve alongside you guys and, and just be out there and. Oh, man. It's an honor.

• 3:12:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then with that, I'll tell you how to wear them at the Spur Dinner. So you look sexy too. And then with that, I got our official coin. I don't think we ever awarded it, brother. So thanks.

• 3:12:25Jocko Willink?

  Thanks, man. Yes. Phantom Troop.

• 3:12:29Speaker 01

  That's right. With an F.

• 3:12:30Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:12:32Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 3:12:32Speaker 01

  We never learned how to spell, but.

• 3:12:36Jocko Willink?

  Uh, that's an honor and I'll definitely get you that, that, that, that list and everyone will be, um,

• 3:12:44Jocko Willink?

  they'll, they'll, they'll wear those with pride.

• 3:12:45Speaker 01

  I just a side note, Byema made his Bulldog coin just a hair bigger than that coin.

• 3:12:52Jocko Willink?

  That's Byema.

• 3:12:53Speaker 01

  Just because he designed that coin with us. And then when he left to go to Bulldog, he intentionally made his Bulldog just a hair bigger, just to rub it in.

• 3:13:01Jocko Willink?

  That's Byema, dude. That's the way he rolls. Uh, where can people, where can people find you right now? So you got Dpinion.com.

• 3:13:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:13:11Jocko Willink?

  Got your own website, which is awesome. You're on Instagram, at Daniel Pinion. You're on Twitter X, at Daniel L. Pinion. And then of course you're on Facebook and LinkedIn, Daniel Pinion. And, and that's where if people want to reach out to you. By the way, you said you have the phone number in the back of the book.

• 3:13:31Speaker 01

  They gotta read the book to find it.

• 3:13:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, gotta read the book. So if you want, if you want the phone number, read the book. Hopefully you don't have to set up an answering service on that type of the future if it gets overwhelming. But, but you know, it just shows where your heart's at, you know, you're, you're here to help people, which is, which is unbelievable and, and awesome. And exactly the, what, what we would expect from a, from a leader like you.

• 3:13:53Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles, you got any questions?

• 3:13:54Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Real quick. Oh, your boys are grown up now.

• 3:13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13:58Speaker 02

  How, how much, um, were they in the know about like, kind of the things that went on and stuff like that?

• 3:14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think at all. I guess that my youngest or oldest Damian was seven and during Ramadi. And I really didn't talk about it. So one thing I'll tell you, so when I did go to ROTC and I was pulled out right after Ramadi, if it wasn't for the counselor at Fort Lewis sitting me 48 hours. And I, I say this honestly, and I had everybody in Connecticut crying when the little league kids and family, the parents of Mansfield really pulled me out of depression and saved my life. I started teaching little league. And that taking me away and giving me another purpose, those, those kids and families,

• 3:14:44Speaker 01

  but my kids, so my oldest is 26 now and he's about to join the Cincinnati Police Department.

• 3:14:51Speaker 02

  Outstanding.

• 3:14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, and my youngest is about to transfer to University of Cincinnati. I think we're waiting for the letter to come in and continue his college career, but they didn't, they didn't really know.

• 3:15:05Speaker 02

  So even?

• 3:15:06Speaker 01

  Until they read the book.

• 3:15:07Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, okay.

• 3:15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, my oldest read the book.

• 3:15:11Speaker 02

  Okay, and what, what was his take? Was he like kind of blown away or was he like, okay, this makes sense now?

• 3:15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so, because there was times where they saw the anger and stuff. You try not to take it out on your family or why is he cold or it's tough, man. It's tough balancing act, but I think he understands. We have a lot more conversations now. There's a lot more maturity now on my side too of how I interact with my children. It's a real strong relationship and I think he, he understands. He understands what I did for my soldiers, but when it comes to combat, I don't know if they'll truly understand what we saw and did. There is a, it was a shitty movie.

• 3:15:58Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna lie, but at the end, it was some SEAL movie, but I'm not saying it's a SEAL. Don't, don't, don't take me to the mat after this, but it was a pretty shitty movie. But at the end of it, they had mentioned Mark Lee's name as a scroll. And I lost it at the end. Like I just came out of the movie theater, had to be like 2010. And my kids were like, what's the matter with dad? And I, I, I explained to them what was going on. I'm like, hey, I know that guy.

• 3:16:30Speaker 01

  And my kid was like, well, that was a crappy movie. I'm like, yeah, that movie did suck, but I know that guy that they honored at the end. Um, so I don't think they'll ever understand combat and I hope they never have to see it. I hope the sacrifices we make, they never have to see.

• 3:16:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. When you, when you were talking about, uh, your wife and I, I know with me, like I have, like my wife, she wouldn't know what we were doing. I, I actually have, I've gone back and looked at emails that I was sending home from Ramadi and they're like, hey, how's it going? Uh, hope the kids are good, you know, uh, food here is not great, but you know, oh, well, and, and actually I, I have like, I looked at the email I sent to my wife on August 2nd and August 3rd and they're just like the most, hey babe, you know, hope everything is okay with the kids. Just no, no indication of what was going on. But then at the same time, my wife was back here. She was going to the hospital to visit my guys that are wounded.

• 3:17:31Jocko Willink?

  She was going to, you know, she went to Mark's funeral. She went to Mike's funeral. Like, so as much as I tried to keep her detached from it all, like, and I imagine your wife had to be the same way.

• 3:17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know who I was thankful for? Lyndon McFarlane. Because I've sort of shielded my wife from the army, but Lyndon McFarlane put her arms around people like my, you know, my wife Solvig and, you know, brought guided her and otherwise. And, you know, Lyndon McFarlane's an angel.

• 3:18:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, she is indeed. Ryan, on Echo, any other questions? No, good to meet you, sir.

• 3:18:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, you too, Echo.

• 3:18:07Jocko Willink?

  Ryan on, uh, Dan, any, any closing thoughts?

• 3:18:09Speaker 01

  No, I, I mean, one, it was awesome serving next to you guys and, you know, as much as horrible as Ramadi was, I cherish our time together and this platform is amazing. So thank you for allowing me on. And if you get Rob Black on there.

• 3:18:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:18:27Jocko Willink?

  That's a done deal.

• 3:18:28Speaker 01

  Well, that's a dangerous thing to get him on there, but I look forward to watching that episode. Just be careful what you ask.

• 3:18:36Speaker 01

  I appreciate you guys.

• 3:18:37Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome, man. I want to close out with some words, speaking of McFarland's and the McFarland's, the General McFarland, I'll close out with some words that he wrote in the foreword of the book. He said, "Some may read this book as a collection of war stories, but it's really a love story. Command Sergeant Major Pinion's love for his soldiers is unmistakable, as he fights the enemy, the elements, and the Army's infamous red tape on their behalf. In this series of vignettes, it's clear his love for his soldiers grew until it was put to the ultimate test in Ramadi, where he was forced to sacrifice the soldiers he loved for the sake of our brigade's mission. I know the pain of those terrible days haunts

• 3:19:18Jocko Willink?

  him still. His moving story about a life dedicated to his soldiers in peace and war is full of hard truths we can all learn from. And no matter what he says or thinks, I can say with some authority, CSM retired Dan Pinion is a hero. Scouts out, ready first, iron soldiers. Lieutenant General Sean McFarland, US Army, retired."

• 3:19:48Jocko Willink?

  And Dan, it was an honor to serve with you and your men on the battlefield, and I agree with the General, 100%. And I know your response to that, the response we all give, and that's that the real heroes didn't come home.

• 3:20:08Speaker 01

  Well said.

• 3:20:10Jocko Willink?

  But thanks for remembering them. Thanks for your service and sacrifice. Thanks for sharing the lessons and the stories of your valiant men, especially Staff Sergeant Clint Story, Sergeant Bradley Best, Sergeant Marquis Quick, and PFC David Dietrich. We will never forget them.

• 3:20:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely, brother.

• 3:20:38Jocko Willink?

  Thank you.

• 3:20:39Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks.

• 3:20:41Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Dan Pinion has left the building. It's an honor to talk to him.

• 3:20:50Jocko Willink?

  Honored to be able to share these stories and thanks to everyone for listening to it. Much appreciated. Get, get the book. You're not going to find a better name for a book, right?

• 3:21:03Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 3:21:05Jocko Willink?

  Top, top name for a book, man. Chop that shit up. And you know, someone was like, oh, you know, we're not sure if that's really the title that will, you know, you don't want to use, no. And he was like, no, no, that's the name of the book.

• 3:21:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, perfect. Actually.

• 3:21:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Don't even, don't even deny it. And as I mentioned, like I went through some of the stories in the book. But I left out so much detail, even the stories that I told, there's so much detail in there. So get the book and you can hear from what Dan said, what is he doing with the money from the book? He's forming these scholarships and, and whatnot to to memorialize the names of these heroes. So it's just a great book. Check it out. Get the book. You'll, you'll laugh, you'll cry and everything in between. So thanks, Dan. Thanks for coming out. Awesome.

• 3:22:00Jocko Willink?

  Also, if you want to support the podcast so we can do stuff like this, and you also want to support yourself at the same time, you can do two things at once. We call that a double leg takedown.

• 3:22:14Speaker 02

  Are you going to bring back the double gravitational scenario?

• 3:22:18Jocko Willink?

  Wait, what's the double gravitational scenario?

• 3:22:20Speaker 02

  Like when you get pulled in the same direction by two things.

• 3:22:23Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay. Nice.

• 3:22:24Speaker 02

  Double gravitational.

• 3:22:24Jocko Willink?

  Is that something from, we're bringing that back?

• 3:22:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, we were talking.

• 3:22:28Jocko Willink?

  Was that one of our things back in the day?

• 3:22:29Speaker 02

  This is maybe like five years ago, to be honest with you. But hey, we back.

• 3:22:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So we're going to do double gravitational pull.

• 3:22:35Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:22:36Jocko Willink?

  You're going to support yourself and you're going to support the podcast. Uh, here's what you do. Go to jockofield.com and get yourself some protein. Get yourself some energy drinks, get yourself some pre-workout that you occasionally might need. Look, do I take a pre-workout every day? No, I don't. But occasionally do you need to get a little bit of? Let's say some, some external help with your, with your motivational levels.

• 3:23:04Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:23:04Jocko Willink?

  Do you need that sometimes?

• 3:23:06Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 3:23:06Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes you do.

• 3:23:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:23:08Jocko Willink?

  Last night I got all held up on the, on the aircraft, couldn't land in San Diego, blah, blah, blah. So, and I had an early call this morning. So when I get that workout today, which can be in the afternoon, which I already don't like doing.

• 3:23:22Speaker 02

  Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 3:23:24Jocko Willink?

  Probably gonna hit that later. Yeah. So jockofuel.com, get protein, get the, get the good stuff, get the clean stuff. Get immunity, get, get it all. Hydrate. Hydration is good, by the way.

• 3:23:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:23:38Jocko Willink?

  Greens. Greens, you don't, greens don't need to taste like dirt. FYI, you can get greens that taste good and have the nutrients you need in them. Jockofuel.com. You can also get this stuff at Walmart, Wawa, Vitamin Shoppe, GNC, Military Commissaries, Afees, Hanaford, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wake Fern, ShopRite, HEB down in Texas, Meyer in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris Teeter, ShopRite.

• 3:24:04Jocko Willink?

  Uh, there you go. Publix, we're down in Publix now. Publix is a big, big chain. So check that out. Lifetime Fitness, Shields, small gyms everywhere. Including your jujitsu gym. If your gym doesn't have Jocko Fuel and they're making you weak or poisoning you with some other product, it's okay. Have them email [email protected]. And we got you covered. Also, you probably need jujitsu clothing. And I recommend you get American made jujitsu clothing, gi, rash guard, shorts. Go to originusa.com and get stuff that is made in America. And then when you go out to the grocery store afterwards, when you go to Wegmans or you go to HEB afterwards, you need clothing where you can't wear your gi there.

• 3:24:49Jocko Willink?

  You could technically, but you don't want to. You need a pair of jeans. You need a hoodie. You need a t-shirt. You need a pair of boots. Go to originusa.com and get American made goods. Get American, look, there's been a lot of sacrifice in this country. A lot of sacrifice in this country for freedom. Support freedom. Support America. Support our workers.

• 3:25:18Jocko Willink?

  Go to originusa.com and get some.

• 3:25:21Speaker 02

  I will say this too, because you mentioned the hoodies. You may not even care about this. I don't know. Maybe do, maybe don't, but there's no reason for me to think that. Nonetheless, Pete and everyone who design the hoodies and other stuff at Origin, they care about the fit. Like when you put on the fit, like when you put it on, it like fits in a way, not like your regular boxy junk hoodies. Like it looks good too. The aesthetic value is very high at Origin. Not to mention the made in the USA, but when you put them together, you get something very unique. I'll tell you that.

• 3:25:54Jocko Willink?

  I'm glad you're over there concerned with the aesthetics. Somebody's gotta be.

• 3:25:57Speaker 02

  Well, bro, I think we kind of.

• 3:25:58Jocko Willink?

  Stuff to work.

• 3:25:59Speaker 02

  I think we all are, except you. That's what I think. Actually, and you know what, you know what I think though? You know what I believe, whether or not you're going to admit this or not, I think aesthetics are part of your list. Your priority.

• 3:26:09Jocko Willink?

  That's just junk.

• 3:26:10Speaker 02

  Correct. Correct. Exactly. Right.

• 3:26:12Jocko Willink?

  So we don't want to look like an idiot.

• 3:26:14Speaker 02

  At the very least, you, we, you, we prefer it to be squared away at the very least. How about that?

• 3:26:19Jocko Willink?

  Hey.

• 3:26:19Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 3:26:20Jocko Willink?

  All day. This is something you said, maybe I don't want to admit it.

• 3:26:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:26:23Jocko Willink?

  I will admit that I want something to appear to be squared away.

• 3:26:27Speaker 02

  Aesthetically.

• 3:26:28Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Squared away is an okay thing.

• 3:26:30Speaker 02

  There you go. Hey, hey, there you go. You heard it here, folks.

• 3:26:33Jocko Willink?

  Hey, go to originusa.com and get some aesthetically squared away product.

• 3:26:37Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. Hundred percent.

• 3:26:39Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent made in America.

• 3:26:40Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:26:41Jocko Willink?

  All right. Let's go.

• 3:26:43Speaker 02

  Also Jocko's, Jocko's store called Jocko's store, Jocko's store.com. This one equals freedom. This is where you can get your discipline equals freedom shirts and hats and hoodies. Some shorts on there. Basically apparel in, in every scenario, situation. This one equals freedom. Good. You know, these things you want to represent as far as like, uh.

• 3:27:02Jocko Willink?

  Being on the path.

• 3:27:02Speaker 02

  Being on the path. You see what I'm saying?

• 3:27:04Jocko Willink?

  I like how you can't remember what you say every time, or you're, maybe you're just pretending you don't remember it. Maybe you're searching for a new way of saying something.

• 3:27:12Speaker 02

  Maybe a little bit, but I think I'm just trying to keep it authentic. You know, I revisit the Jocko's store. Thing in my mind every time we do it.

• 3:27:19Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 3:27:20Speaker 02

  So it's real.

• 3:27:20Jocko Willink?

  Do you have any kind of a subscription thing there?

• 3:27:24Speaker 02

  Glad you asked Jocko. So we do have a subscription scenario called the Shirt Locker.

• 3:27:30Jocko Willink?

  It's a subscription scenario.

• 3:27:31Speaker 02

  Oh, big time. Yes. Yes. You get a new design every month.

• 3:27:37Speaker 02

  Designs a little bit outside the box, we'll call them. People seem to like them though. And I guess, you know, they're all different, you know, in these different ways. So some, some hit land. How should I say, they are a hit to certain types of people. And sometimes when those designs hit hard to people that I'm personally in, uh, uh, know. I'll get the wave of texts. This is the one I like. Oh, yeah. Uh, the last one was one of those ones. Um, nonetheless, yes, it's all in Jocko's store. So go if you check some, check that stuff out. Uh, yeah. If you like something, get something.

• 3:28:13Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Speaking of stuff that you might like and should like, check out ColoradoCraftBeef.com and PrimalBeef.com because we've got steaks that you will like.

• 3:28:22Speaker 02

  Bro, so, okay, so Colorado Craft Beef, Beef Sticks.

• 3:28:27Jocko Willink?

  Snickers Bars. They're Snickers Bars. They're like a snack, like a Snickers Bar, but they're awesome for you.

• 3:28:33Speaker 02

  Way better. Yeah, way better. So this specifically, you know, my son, he's like, whatever. He'll just eat whatever, you know, like, uh, not eat whatever, but like, he doesn't make a big deal out of like food and like.

• 3:28:46Jocko Willink?

  He's not a foodie.

• 3:28:47Speaker 02

  No, not really. He doesn't relish all the stuff, but he runs down, right? Cause I guess we got some, some free ones at the muster of the beef stick. We've been out for a while. So he found one and he runs up to me. He's like this, like points it in my face. This is my favorite one right there. And I looked at it. He's like, it's my favorite. And then runs upstairs 100% Colorado Craft Beef Beef Stick.

• 3:29:09Jocko Willink?

  Check out those beef sticks. Snickers Bar Steak Snickers Bars, basically. Totally good to go. And then PrimalBeef.com. Just awesome steaks, awesome food from awesome people at awesome companies. PrimalBeef.com, ColoradoCraftBeef.com. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Don't forget to check out jockounderground.com, the YouTube channels. Psychological Warfare Books. We got some books. Obviously the book you need to get is Chop That Shit Up.

• 3:29:38Jocko Willink?

  By Dan Pinion. It's just a freaking great book. And then I've written a bunch of books too that you can check out, including a bunch of kids books. If you've got kids or you know kids or there's a kid that lives across the street. Maybe you can see, you ever look at a kid, you go, I'm worried about this kid. Like, he's got that little like, maybe a little bit of an attitude where you go, this kid might go down the wrong path. Let's get him on the right path. Or maybe he's a kid that's on a good path. Maybe he's gonna be a little bit, maybe he's gonna be a little bit soft. Like, oh, he's not doing enough hard things. We got you covered. Warrior Kids. Check them out. Warrior Kid books. There's a Warrior Kid movie coming. It's gonna be awesome.

• 3:30:20Jocko Willink?

  So, check all that stuff out. And then I've written a bunch of books about leadership. So, we're here for you. Also, we have a leadership consultancy called Echelon Front. We solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com for some details on that. And by the way, we have events. We have live events. The next big live event that we have is San Antonio, Texas. This is April 29th through May 1st. It's gonna sell out. It's in San Antonio. It's the muster. Come and check that out. We also have another battlefield coming up out of Gettysburg. So, if you're interested in history, or you are interested in leadership, or if you're interested

• 3:30:59Jocko Willink?

  in both, this is the place for you to go. The Gettysburg Battlefield Review is epic. So, check that out as well. Go to echelonfront.com for details on any of that. We also have a consultancy where we're coming to your business and help you. So, we got you covered there. And then we also have an online training academy, extremeownership.com, where we can get you trained up in the skills of leadership. Look, the lessons that we learned on the battlefield, that we learned in business, that we learned with our families, that we can take and teach them to you, and they will make every aspect of your life better. Go to extremeownership.com.

• 3:31:39Jocko Willink?

  And also, if you want to help service members, active and retire, active and retired, you want to help their families, want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom. You heard about Mark Lee today. What an incredible human being.

• 3:31:55Jocko Willink?

  Made an incredible sacrifice and his mom took that and turned it into something unbelievably awesome. It's Americas Mighty Warriors.org. They do so much to help our, our veterans. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to that website Americas Mighty Warriors.org and see how you can help out. Also, don't forget about Heroes and Horses.org and finally Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. Once again, if you want to connect with us for Dan Pinion, check out, he's got his own website. It's DPinion.com. You can check that out and

• 3:32:34Jocko Willink?

  he's also on Instagram, Daniel Pinion and Twitter X Daniel L. Pinion and then he's on Facebook and LinkedIn as well. And for us, you can check out Jaco.com on, also on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink and Echo is at Echo Charles. Just don't waste a bunch of time there because time is fleeting and you're going to run out of it and don't spend that precious time looking at a three inch computer screen that you carry around in your pocket. It's a waste. Don't let it happen. Thanks once again to Dan Pinion for joining us and thanks to the rest of Phantom Troop. It was

• 3:33:15Jocko Willink?

  an honor to serve alongside you guys in the Battle of Ramadi. We will not ever forget your service and sacrifice. And thanks to all our military personnel out there. There's so much sacrifice that happens to protect our freedom and we are grateful for it. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, and all other first responders. Thank you for your service and sacrifice here on the home front. And everyone else out there, you can probably guess what I'm going to say right now. I think it's pretty obvious. There are going to be obstacles in

• 3:33:57Jocko Willink?

  life. There's going to be big obstacles, big obstacles, and it's going to be hard to make them go away. But now, thanks to Command Sergeant Major Dan Pinion, you know what to do. Roll up your sleeves and chop that shit up. That's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, Zeko and Jocko, out.