Athletic Prowess on a Plant-Based Diet

Today on the show I sit down with my friend Mac Danzig, a fascinating PlantPowered force in the MMA / UFC world. Before we go any further, throw away any UFC fighter stereotypes that may come to mind. Mac is one of the more intelligent, introspective and out-of-the box thinkers you are likely to meet — a personality and perspective forged from transcending a challenging upbringing to rise to the highest echelons of the UFC, including victory in Season 6 of the Ultimate Fighter and a decorated career that includes twelve consecutive wins in 2006. Accomplishments all achieved on a 100% plant-based diet. I first met Mac a couple years ago and was immediately struck by his contemplative, low key personality. A guy at peace with himself, far more comfortable alone in nature than navigating the spotlight. A guy who really thinks about the authenticity of his actions, his place in the world, how to best father his daughter Nova, and the impact his decisions have on others and the planet at large. So it was fascinating to finally sit down with him and hash it out. Not short on opinions, Mac broke my record in episode length today, exceeding 3 hours and expounding upon everything from his career and diet (of course) to the benefits of meditation, the perils of our education system and sport as art. Yeah, it's a long one. I know. But I am really proud of this interview and essentially guarantee that you will be completely engaged throughout. It's one thing when a triathlete, marathoner or an ultra-runner demonstrates plantpowered prowess. We've seen that. But what about an athlete whose success depends upon brute strength, lightning speed, incredible power and world-class agility? Well that's another thing altogether. Simply put, Mac's success takes all the wind out of the tired argument that you cannot excel athletically on a plant-based diet. Now Mac is taking his game to a whole new level, experimenting with the 80/10/10 Diet – a regimen heralded by Douglas Graham in which 80% of all calories come from carbohydrates, 10% from protein and 10% from fat. Translation? Most of what he eats is fruit — a protocol that stands in direct counterpoint to the high fashion, high fat, low carb craze currently in vogue. How is it working for Mac? You'll have to listen to the whole episode to find out. It might take a few sittings, but I promise it's worth your time investment. I genuinely hope you enjoy the show. Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Rich Roll?

  Welcome to episode 45 of the Rich Roll Podcast with Mac Danzig.

• 1:24Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm Rich Roll. This is the Rich Roll Podcast. Today, we have a complete treat for you guys. My buddy, Mac Danzig, as Joe Rogan would say, "The powerful Mac Danzig is on the show." Mac is a mixed martial artist and a plant-powered one at that. He's conquered the UFC. He's quite accomplished in his craft, in his art, in his sport. And he sits down with me today to talk all about it, what his life is like, and his evolution as an athlete, as a dad, as an artist, what his diet is like. He's, I believe, he's the only 100% vegan athlete in the UFC. I could be wrong. I mean, I know there's a lot of other guys.

• 2:10Rich Roll?

  That play around with a plant-based diet. They'll eat a plant-based diet during certain rigorous parts of their training or in prep for a fight, but then they go off it in the off-season. So, or there's lots of vegetarian guys. And I know that plant-based nutrition is really picked up steam in the mixed martial arts community. There's a lot of athletes playing around with it right now. But Mac is really the guy who's carrying the torch. He's been doing it for a long time. He's had a lot of success with it and we sit down today and talk all about it. We talk about what it's like to be a professional athlete and a dad, what his perspective is throughout his career, all the ups and downs, how his diet has changed.

• 2:55Rich Roll?

  He's recently, and very interestingly, adopted the 80-10-10 diet, which is based on Douglas Graham's book, which is a diet predominantly composed of eating, well, lots of fruit. 80% carbohydrates, 10% protein, 10% fat. He just started doing it about four months ago. He did it in preparation for his most recent fight and he sits down and talks about how he's feeling and his perspective on how his plant-based or vegan diet has evolved over time. And it's really interesting. It bears a striking resemblance to how my former guest, Michael Aronstein, the fruitarian,

• 3:40Rich Roll?

  speaks about what it's like to eat this way. And it's pretty compelling. So, we don't get into that part until I think the last 30, 35 minutes of the show. So, please stick with it. Y'all want to hear that part of it. But Mac's a great guy. He's a great ambassador of sport. He's a very insightful, thoughtful guy. And he has a lot of opinions about a lot of things. And we get into all sorts of issues from education to what he's interested in doing after his career, and of course, all the diet and training stuff. And we talk about the mental aspect of sport and how meditation and yoga has kind of taken him to a new level. And it's really, really interesting stuff.

• 4:25Rich Roll?

  But it is epically long and I realize that. So, I'm going to dispense with all the introductory remarks so we can get right into it. I do want to say that I am going to be traveling coming up, so I wanted to share a few dates with you. September 7th, I'm going to be in Toronto at the Toronto Veg Fest. I'm speaking that Saturday night, I believe that's the 7th, delivering a keynote, and it's a huge event. So, it's really fun. I did it last year. If you happen to be in Toronto, or you're in the vicinity, come and check it out. It's really a good time. And I think I'm also doing a panel with a couple other athletes, like James Wilkes, who's been on the show before. I believe John Pierre, who's a plant-based trainer,

• 5:09Rich Roll?

  and a couple other guys, my friend Joseph Pace, maybe Mike Ziegmanis, I'm not sure, who's an NHL player, plant-based athlete. But, check it out. If you want to learn more about that, go to festival.veg.ca. And I'm going to be in Tucson on September 21st, delivering another keynote there. It's part of an organization called the Healthy You Network. So if you're in Tucson, or in the vicinity, come and check that out. For more information, you can go to HealthyYouNetwork.org. Thank you, thank you, thank you for everybody who has been supporting the show. The comments have been amazing. We appreciate all the

• 5:54Rich Roll?

  support. If you want to support, you can use the Amazon banner ad at Richroll.com on the podcast page, and on the blog page. If you're going to buy something on Amazon, just click that banner ad. It takes you right to Amazon, get whatever you're going to get. No additional cost to you. Amazon kicks us some loose change and helps keep the light, keeps, helps keep the lights on over here. You can also, oh, and I wanted to say one thing, which is, I've been getting some emails from people in Europe and in the United Kingdom, saying, "Hey, you know, I want to support the show. I want to use the Amazon banner ad, but it's only for the US. Please, put up an Amazon banner ad that works in the UK." So, we're working on that. We're going to get that resolved in the next

• 6:39Rich Roll?

  week or so. So, stay tuned. And I appreciate the heads up on that. You can also donate to the show. You can- Throw us some loose change on a one-time basis, on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis. It's up to you. You know, a dollar, $5, $10, whatever you want. People have been doing that and it warms my heart. Thank you so much for all the support with that. It's been great. And one final thing I want to point out, which is, I wrote my most recent blog post at Richroll.com was about my buddy Matt Fraser's new program called Triathlon Roadmap, The Plant-Based Guide to Conquering Your First Triathlon.

• 7:21Rich Roll?

  So for those of you out there who are interested in getting involved in triathlon, are interested in eating more plants, he's come up with this really great program. It's all downloadable that will take you through everything you need to know to prepare for your first triathlon. It's got a training program. It's got a meal plan. It's got recipes. It's got all these tips and all the sort of tools that you need to get going. It takes all the mystery out of it and it's great. Go to Richroll.com. You can find that blog post and click the hyperlinks over to his site and to learn more and to purchase the product. Of course, you can go to nomeatathlete.com and do it that way. But I've got an affiliate relationship

• 8:02Rich Roll?

  with Matt. So if you go to my site first and click over, then he throws me a few bucks for every one of those purchases. So it's a great way to continue to support the show, just in full disclosure. I love Matt. I stand behind this product. He's great. He's a great guy. He always puts high-quality content out there and I think we should support him. He's also got a program for somebody who's preparing for their first marathon or for their first half marathon. So you can check all that stuff out there. So thank you so much for all the support. My only goal here is to bring you the brightest, most forward-thinking, paradigm-busting personalities in health, fitness, and wellness, so that they can share

• 8:46Rich Roll?

  their stories and their wealth of information. You can take that information, take what works for you, dispense with the rest, and hopefully incorporate that into your life so that you can unlock and unleash the best, most authentic version of yourself.

• 9:09Rich Roll?

  Thanks for coming along for the ride. Today's a good one. It's a long one, but it's worth it. Mac is a great guy. This is pure gold. So I hope you stick with it all the way to the end. Thanks for joining me and without further ado, enjoy the show. Ladies and gentlemen, Mac Danzig.

• 9:33Rich Roll?

  You don't have to use the headphones if you don't want to. Okay. But you can, I use them just so I know.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I can tell. Yeah, that way it'll remind me if I start pulling my head away.

• 9:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because you know how it is. You gotta kind of chew on the mic a little bit.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely, definitely.

• 9:52Rich Roll?

  So yeah, man, I think we, we're already rolling, by the way.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  All right.

• 9:58Rich Roll?

  I think we, yeah, we started, you started your podcast right around the same time as I did. And I was like, Oh, that's awesome. And then one day I saw a tweet and you were like, I just can't keep up with it. And we were just talking before beforehand about how much work it is. And it's really like, you know, I just, I made the decision to just be committed to it. But that doesn't mean that it hasn't like commandeered like a huge part of my life to get the, you know, it's like, it takes hours and hours and hours to get it up when you're done and all that kind of stuff. So.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, with me, it was like I had, I have all these great ideas and I have these great contacts and, and contacts and friends of friends and, you know, colleagues and everything and all these really interesting people that I felt, you know, I could have a really great dialogue with them, you know, the viewership would be good and a lot of people would be really interested in doing it. And that's why I started it. And then it started off great and everyone liked it. But, but yeah, there's so much more to it than just like pressing record and then just being like.

• 11:05Rich Roll?

  You're done.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, if it was as easy as just pressing record and then like clicking a few buttons to upload it, then it wouldn't be an issue. But it was very, very time consuming and, you know, like.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  Being, being the dad, you know, it's, it's so hard for me to

• 11:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Do that. Yeah. And then the, the full-time training on top of that. And to me, like, a lot of people were like, "Well, why don't you just do one once a month and we'll be happy with that?" And, and that's true, but if I do something, I want to do it all the way.

• 11:38Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, yeah. I know exactly what you're talking about.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  I rarely dabble in anything, you know? It's like all or nothing for me.

• 11:43Rich Roll?

  I, I can relate. Yeah. I mean, the, the easiest part is this part. You know what I mean?

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:49Rich Roll?

  And then like, if you could just be like, "Okay, I'm done." And then know that everything else got taken care of and it got uploaded. That would be great. Like, because you did Rogan like right before I did. I want to talk about that a little bit.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:59Rich Roll?

  But he's like, "All right, that was awesome." And then he drives away and I don't think he touches a computer, you know? It just, it, from, from his perspective, Red Band takes care of all of it. It's done.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, the dude Red Band does everything. And if, if I had my version of Red Band, Blue Band, Green Band, whatever, if I had a guy like that, then I could, you know, do my, my own and, and it wouldn't be that much of an issue. And I've had people that actually, I kind of explained that on Twitter and I had a few people that, that reached out and said that, that they could, they could help. But, and I might take them up on it. It is something that I, that I really want to do. I just have to decide what I'm doing, you know? Because I, with, with like full-time training and getting ready for fights and like full-time parenthood, it's kind of, it's, it's, it's tricky. So when I decide what direction I'm going in my life

• 12:53Speaker 02

  and really decide what options I have, then I, I would love to, you know, start doing that again and then commit to it the way that you have. And I, I mean, it was, it was successful. I only did like five of them and it was really popular.

• 13:05Rich Roll?

  You were like right up at the top of iTunes, like immediately.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then, and then it just, you know, and then I have, I have a few like weird issues. Like I, I, I find it hard to pretend that I'm some sort of talk show host. And what's great, what's great about...

• 13:19Rich Roll?

  But you don't have to do that with podcasting.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  I know, I know. That's what's great about podcasts. You don't necessarily have to do that. But I wanted everything to be 100% authentic and, and it was like 99.9% authentic. So you know what I mean? So, so it was just... I don't know. I got some things I gotta figure out, but I would definitely like to start it up again and get it going again.

• 13:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so if you could just do the interview part and then hand it over to somebody to have it taken care of.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, just what needs to be done is like some editing, you know, every now and then then we would, we would all like to just be able to throw up whatever, you know, happens from the moment that you start recording to the moment that you stop recording, but we know that that's, that there's more to it than that. And so a little bit of editing here and there, reviewing it and then fixing the audio and everything because I got so many complaints about the audio. I don't even know what to do. I'm not an audio guy. I'm a visual guy. So, and then the intro and the outro and then uploading it to a server that will hold it. And then, once you do that, tagging it and key wording it.

• 14:32Rich Roll?

  It just takes, it's not hard. It's just like, okay, now I do this and now I do that. Yeah. Like you're on an assembly line for every one of them.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. So then you upload it to that. And then, once it's ready and it recognizes it, then you go to iTunes, then you go to, you know, what, what's the other Stitcher?

• 14:48Rich Roll?

  Stitcher.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  All these other ones that you go and you do that. And then, okay, well, let's make a one for YouTube and Vimeo. Okay. Well, we gotta add like a video thing to it. Put it, put it into Final Cut Pro. Okay. It's loading up. It's rendering all Final Cut Pro says it's going to be four hours if you want like good quality audio. And I'm just like, ah, like.

• 15:06Rich Roll?

  I know. Just for your one episode, you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, you just explained my life, you know?

• 15:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:12Rich Roll?

  Like I just put one up today. Actually, it went up last night, but I spent like a huge part of my weekend, you know, doing it. So, but, uh, but I have an idea for you. We can talk about it afterwards.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But.

• 15:25Rich Roll?

  Cause I'd love to see you bring it back.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. You know, these, these types of commitments are good though, because like all that you're putting in now, you know, you're building something and that's what. You know, everything that any of us have ever done that we've been passionate about, look back on it and you're like, oh, man, that was really hard work. But when you commit to something like that, then it all pays off because you're really building something. You know what I mean? And so, so like, if I can find the time to commit, I can, I can do it. I just need to figure it out.

• 15:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we'll talk later about that. I'd love to help you with that. And I'd love to see you bring it back. So, but thanks for coming up, man. We've been trying to make this happen for a long time.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. I'm, I'm very hard to get a hold of. And I'm, I'm pretty wishy washy when it goes like, because I just, I get it.

• 16:11Rich Roll?

  You're not that hard. You've, you always get back to me, but I find that you have, you're wishy washy on social media. Like you'll go through these tears where you're on Twitter all the time. And then you disappear. Like, like you've been kidnapped from social media for a while. And I assume I was just training now.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm training and I'm, I find it to be a really big distraction. And then lots of times, unfortunately, like, you know, I'm not, I'm not as zen as I would like to be. But I find it to be a negative distraction lots of times, you know, or, or a mixed, you know, mixed positive, negative, neutral. And so, when, when it starts to have that effect on my life, and I'm thinking, oh, man, like, I really don't like how inflammatory this has become, you know, especially my.

• 17:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you have it. Well, your, your audience is a little bit different than mine.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Audience is a little bit different. And I've got a lot of like, support from like the animal rights and the, and the like, the vegan community and everything like that. And that's always like a positive thing. But then, there's just so many, you know, and it's not just like, the quote unquote haters or whatever. It's, there's more than that. It's just, it becomes, it becomes very time consuming and distracting. And, and sometimes I just, I'm like, all right, I've had enough. I need to, I need to get off here. I need to get out of here. And, and yeah, I've.

• 17:31Rich Roll?

  Like a cleanse.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

• 17:34Rich Roll?

  Take a Silkwood shower and like wash off most like residual like angst and resentment.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:43Rich Roll?

  So what are you, are you, are you, you're training right now? What's going on?

• 17:47Speaker 02

  No, I just had, I had my fight on July 27th and I'm just, all I've been doing ever since then is, is just staying in shape as best I can, considering the little injuries that I have and then just, you know, hanging out with my kid who I didn't get to really, really spend a lot of quality time with these past, you know, 12 weeks, 15 weeks before the fight because I was just committed and training so hard. So just spending time with my daughter and, you know, taking care of all the things that I put on the side burner while I was doing full-time training. That's kind of how, how it ends up going. So, uh, yeah. Yeah, just doing that and waiting to see what's next. I really don't know.

• 18:31Rich Roll?

  You don't have a fight scheduled right now yet?

• 18:33Speaker 02

  No, I don't and I don't know what, what is gonna happen. I still haven't spoken to the UFC. I don't know what's going on with that. So, once I find out exactly what they want to do, then I can move forward and make a decision on what I'm gonna do in the future. You know what I mean? Like, like where I'm gonna take fighting and if I'm gonna start pursuing other interests and things like that. And I've got a whole lot, I mean, the, the good thing is that I've got a whole lot of options. I've got a lot of different things that I could possibly start doing. But then that's also sort of the, the, the hard thing because it complicates everything

• 19:17Speaker 02

  because I have to pick one and commit to it. I can't just dabble around because I, I just don't have the time or resources to do that. So, we'll see what happens.

• 19:26Rich Roll?

  I mean, if fighting ended right now, I mean, what are those, what are those, I mean, what are the, what's the?

• 19:30Speaker 02

  I'm really interested in, in, in photography and in, um...

• 19:37Speaker 02

  In cinematography. So I've been working and, you know, like I have a friend and I'm directing like two of his music videos.

• 19:45Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow, that's cool.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  And so it's just like a chance to really get my feet wet with that. And, you know, I know some people that work in film and, you know, I want to start doing what I can to, you know, get my, get my foot in the door there and, and, you know, work as a DP and, and just see how the whole process works and watch people adapt, you know, scripts to screenplays to film and see how the process works. And, and it's, it's, it's a long journey, you know?

• 20:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  It's not something that you can just be like, okay, well, because I'm good at photography and I have a good eye, I can just hop into this. You know, you've got to commit and you've got to practice and you've got to learn, you got to study. And so that's, that's an option. Teaching and coaching is an option. You know, there's, there's, there's a few different things. There's, there's also like the option of doing some choreography in, in live action films and things like that.

• 20:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you did. You've done a little bit of that already, haven't you? Or did you do some for some children's shows?

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, for, for Avatar, The Last Airbender. Actually, I did it for, for The Legend of Korra, which is from, one of my closest friends is a creator of Avatar, The Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra, both of which are really popular.

• 21:05Rich Roll?

  Huge, yeah. I mean, it's, it's like, that's one cartoon that I have no problem letting my kids watch.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:11Rich Roll?

  That cartoon, I mean, it's awesome. You know, yeah, the message is good and like, they're on this spiritual quest.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 21:18Rich Roll?

  It's cool.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And, and, yeah, my, my friend Brian that, that's created, him and his, his friend Mike have created that, that both those series. They're, they're so into, you know, martial arts and, and just like the visual dynamics and everything. And I've never met someone that's so in tune with. You know, body mechanics visually and like, like how it works and everything. Oh, wow. You know, we, we sit and watch UFC sometimes and, and he points out all these different things that he sees and observes about, you know, the way that somebody moves, you know what I mean? Like the way that they move their body, the way their body type is and, and all this stuff. And then it's, it's so cool to watch him adapt that visually

• 22:02Speaker 02

  to, to this animated series and stuff. And yeah, it's popular. A lot of people like it. You know, there's, there's a lot to like about it. There's, you know, even if you weren't into the story, um, the, the, the animation is really cool, or you can be into the, the, the story and storyline and everything. It's, it's pretty cool. It's, it's, it's, it's good to, to, I mean, I, I just like surrounding myself with people who are, are creative and artistic, no matter what it is, like music or, or, you know, like...

• 22:32Rich Roll?

  I'm obsessed with creative people. Like in this town, there's no shortage of them. You always meet people that are, they're just amazingly prolific in some weird like corner of the, you know, some creative business that can only exist in LA.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:45Rich Roll?

  Like I, a friend of mine who I was, I, I went to a screening last night and I brought, it was Trapper's birthday and a buddy of mine has a, uh, has a theater in his house, like a screening room. And he was screening Wolverine. So I went over them. There's some friends of mine there. And one of the guys, my friend Oliver, he did the voice, he's a voiceover actor. He's a, he's an actor, actor too, but he does a lot of voiceover work. And he was the voice of Robert Lutus in, in Bioshock Infinite.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 23:14Rich Roll?

  And so my boys like love that. And they're just like talking to him. And he's like talking about what it's like to like work on these video games and like what it involves and like what the creators tell them and don't tell them. And it's just like, you know, I'm fascinated by that. I could talk to that guy like all day, you know, about that stuff. So...

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:29Rich Roll?

  You know, it's just a weird, like you couldn't do that. You know, this town is just rife with people that have these weird little...

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  I know, I know. Los Angeles is so cool in that regard, you know? And, and every single time, because it is such a zoo and it's, it's such a crazy city and there's so many negative points that you like, it's easy to get caught up in that. And I find myself being like, man, like... I don't know about this city and you know, I think I've had enough of it and I don't want to raise my kid here. And once she starts getting older, there's all these superficial influences and this consumerism and everything and then I get start to get down on it. And I'm like, man, if you just swim through all the garbage, there's the most amazing people here on the mo- doing the most amazing stuff on really cool quests. And it's like, like,

• 24:20Speaker 02

  that's what's so magical about this entire like area, you know, like the little bit greater Los Angeles areas. There are so many people who are doing what what we're doing. They're they're they're looking past that. They're flowing past it and just, you know, concerning themselves with with creativity and and being artistic and and and just loving what they do. And that's that's what's great. And that's one of the things that you don't really find so much in in other regions, you know, it's few few and far between. That's why I left left where I grew up, you know, because everybody was just either involved in retail or, you know, or something, you know what I mean? And I just, I can't hang with that.

• 25:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I still think you're right. I mean, there's a lot of, you know, things that aren't so great about living here, but there's still that idea that anything is possible, you know, that you just feel wherever you go and it exists, you know, and it's like, you know, you know, dreams do come true. You always meet like somebody who was like, well, I just came here a couple of years ago and now they're like doing some amazing thing, you know, I never would have thought it would happen. So, you know, it still happens. And I think the entertainment business is one of the last true, true apprenticeship industries where, you know, the guy who's running CAA started in the mailroom, you know, and you want to be a cinematographer, well, you start as a PA and then you move up to second assistant camera and then you move up to first assistant, you know, you

• 25:46Rich Roll?

  don't just jump in and start, you know, shooting a movie like because you have a degree or something like that. Like you, you start below people who teach you and they, you know, the trade, you you rise up through the ranks by having that skill passed along to you. And I think that, you know, I think that as technology continues to accelerate that. That we're becoming a more, that our economy is becoming more skill-based on, you know, people that can do all these different things with technology. That it's become much more valuable. It's become, you know, you could make the argument that that is as valuable as a college degree. Like if you understand how to do this, at least, maybe I'm being myopic because living in Los Angeles, you see people doing all these very specific things that aren't really

• 26:28Rich Roll?

  related to like where they went to school or whatever degree they have.

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, no, no, I think you're absolutely right. I think that, you know, at least within the West Coast and the industries around here and everything, I watch that happen all the time. And I think that's what's so cool about it is it's what you can do, you know? Like, look at, look at what this guy does. Look at the way he shoots. Look at the, you know, what he's learned from working with this person. They vouch for him and therefore he gets the work. Whereas the person whose parents sent them to college that didn't really pay attention in film school and doesn't really know what they're doing, they're not going to get it because the proof isn't there, you know? They don't, they don't have what it takes. And that's what's, that's what's so, so great about it, you know?

• 27:18Speaker 02

  It's about what, what you're doing and what you can do, you know? And that's, that's beautiful, you know?

• 27:24Rich Roll?

  It's like sports too.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:25Rich Roll?

  You know, there's a purity to it.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 27:27Rich Roll?

  Not that there isn't nepotism in Hollywood. I mean, let's be honest, but, but with some of those, with those things, yeah, they're very, very skill-based for sure. So that's cool. I mean, I know your, your, you know, your love of photography goes way back. I mean, some of your pictures are amazing.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I appreciate that, man. I just, it's like, the one thing about my photography is, and what I like doing is I like photographing remote places and I like going to these places that are so, you know, off the beaten path and so, so rarely photographed, you know? Like I have a few like iconic places that I've gone and photographed because I just like the aesthetics and I'm not really too worried about the fact that, oh, well, yeah, tons of tourists and everything, I've shot the same type of scene. You know, I have a few shots like that, but I really like to go to places that the place itself speaks to me.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  So like I capture an image there and I, and I capture an image of, of like,

• 28:34Speaker 02

  You know, the idea is to capture something that represents this beautiful feeling that you can only get when you're out there and like only the people that are in tune with nature and can go to a place like that and stand there and be miles and miles from the nearest person, you know, and just, you know, absorb the timeless energy that's in that spot. Those types of people are the ones that get it. And so it's not really like a popular thing as far as like, you know, making money. I mean, everybody's like, oh, you know, like a nice picture is a nice picture. But in this day and age, I find

• 29:15Speaker 02

  that like images are really easy to come by, you know, anyone can do a Google image search.

• 29:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Anyone can just see something and they say, oh, yeah, it's a nice picture. Oh, look, that's a nice place. That they don't really, you know, like get into the scene. You know what I mean? So it takes like a certain subculture of people that are really in tune with nature and remote places and, you know, love, you know, the aesthetic of forests and rock formations and things like that to really appreciate. But, but I mean, I would do it more if I could. The thing is, it's so hard for me because of my daughter's age to travel like that anymore. You know what I mean? And like

• 29:56Rich Roll?

  Well, you're like this, you would have your fight and then you'd go off on some kind of solo pilgrimage out to Joshua Tree and like hide for a while.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 30:06Rich Roll?

  And then take your pictures.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:08Rich Roll?

  Do your Ansel Adams thing and

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then what started happening is those trips got fewer and far between because, you know, it got to the point where like I needed to be there to take care of my daughter all the time and she wasn't of the age yet to come with me, you know, she's still only four right now because the places I'm going to aren't just like blah, blah, blah, national park with the scenic overlook, you know, everybody, anyone can get there. But like these places are a lot more different and there's, there's, there's a lot of planning involved. And, you know, if you just go out there on a whim, well, you could spend an entire week out there and then the conditions won't be right and you won't get a good shot. And it'll be a beautiful experience nonetheless. And that's what I like about it too, is the

• 30:55Speaker 02

  fact that even if I don't come back with any good shots, it's just Being there is just amazing. It's so spiritual.

• 31:01Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  You know, one of my close friends is, is, is at the forefront of, of that type of photography. This guy named Mark Adamus and he's, I'm actually gonna go up to Alaska with him here next week.

• 31:18Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Which is my, will be my first real photography trip that I've taken in quite some time. And anyway, he makes a living leading group tours. And so what he does is he has people that, that will pay to, you know, they all meet up and the hotel is on them. You know, their transportation is largely on them unless he has to use his truck to bring people into a really remote place. It's off-road, but he leads these tours over the course of, you know, five or six days. And he just caravans people and takes them to these spots that only he knows about. And, um, you know, helps them compose their shots, explains to them, you know, the light and everything.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  And gets them to these places that they otherwise, you know, wouldn't know how to get to. And if they found out how to get to, wouldn't know like the right timing and the right light and everything. And he makes a good living doing that, but he's away from home 250, 280 days a year. And it's just impossible for me to do that. So.

• 32:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  So, you know, that, that would be an option for me to start a business on, on that, on, on that sort of thing. If, if I wasn't a dad, but you know, you, it's, it's, it's cool though, because I get to, to watch this amazing little person grow up. And, and everything and live vicariously.

• 32:45Rich Roll?

  She's almost old enough to come with you.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  She's almost old enough. Yeah, yeah. I started to bring her with me to like.

• 32:50Rich Roll?

  Unless you're like rappelling down, you know, like.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:53Rich Roll?

  Kind of crazy thing.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. She is, she's cool though. She loves it. I mean, I've been taking her camping and stuff. And so she's getting into it, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a battle though, between, between the, the, the nature-loving side. And, and you know, like the, the cartoons and all that, but I got the, I have no, no cable TV at my house or anything like that. So. So I try to keep those distractions at a minimum, but.

• 33:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we're the same way. We uh, we turn the, the cable TV off primarily because you could, I, we could just see the impact on the little girls. Like it's so dramatic and so immediate, you know, and they start to, you know, tap into the whole like Disney Channel thing and the products that are being advertised and all of that. And, and you know, that's just part of living in modern life or whatever. And you know, but then I just, I started to see them behave differently. And we're like, you know, it's, this is not good for them. So we turned it off, which is very difficult for me, you know, like I like my shows. You know, there's some shows I like to watch and you know, I was like, really? You know, like now the Tour de France is on all summer. Like I'd really like to watch that, you know? And uh, so it, you know, I think the, the transition was hardest for me.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:07Rich Roll?

  You know, the girls were like, okay, you know, like a week later, it was like, it never happened. And now we're used to it and I'm used to it. Um, but you know, it really is amazing how differently they behave without it.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  I know. I, I think it's so important um, with girls too, and having a little girl that, that she really understands that um, you know, she can do anything that she wants. You know, that sounds like cliche or whatever, you know, because we've been saying that, you know, to girls for so long. But it's really, really hard, I think. And I wouldn't pretend to know, but it's really, really hard from my observational standpoint to, to be a female in the society because of all the, the pressures that there are to, to use um, you know, looks and sexuality and things like that as uh, as, as what you do to, to get ahead. And you watch other, other people do it and other people fall into that sort of thing.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  And, and I mean, I'm not trying to get too heavy here, but I mean, when you see the, what the programming and the products that are available for, for little girls and adolescent girls and, and stuff, you see how that seed gets planted. And it's, I don't like that. I want my kid to, if she's, if she's like, hey, like I really am into fashion and. Makeup and you know, like all this stuff, that's great and that's awesome. And you know, like you, you know, you want to model, whatever, I support that. But the, the whole thing is, I don't want her to think that, that that's the only way that a female can get ahead.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  And then if she doesn't have a certain type of look or something, then her worth is somehow less. You know, I think a lot of people fall into feeling that way. And, and that sort of insecurity like bred by the pressures of society is, is something that I want to avoid. I want her to know that no matter what she wants to do, you know, sports or you know, like, you know, who knows? I mean, it's wide open, you know what I mean? So that, that's one of the reasons why I, I kind of pull her attention away from that and try to just get her involved. I've gotten her in gymnastics and you know, just getting her involved in sports. And she's so into nature and animals right now.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  And I've, I hope that that, that seed that I've planted is kind of like, you know, gonna take her wherever she wants to, to go without having to, you know, worry about any kind of pressures or anything.

• 36:38Rich Roll?

  Right, well, you let them develop their own barometer about what they're attracted to, rather than being influenced by, you know, what's on the cover of the magazine when they're at the grocery store, checkout line or, or whatever, or what happens to be on TV, or the cartoon that says, you know, you're, you know, your mother wants to kill you and you're gonna die unless you find the prince and he marries you, which you do, and then your life is perfect forever.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 37:01Rich Roll?

  Hold on, I gotta, it's freaking hot in here. I gotta roll out the window.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Okay, let's do it.

• 37:26Rich Roll?

  Sorry, you might hear a little traffic from the road, but you know, we're both staring at each other sweating bullets here. It's ridiculous in the garage.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  Do you get complaints about the audio too? Cause man, I got so many complaints about my audio and I bought like this little, you know, like Tascam thing and I would stick my podcast into a final cut and do these filters that like cut down on the ambient noise and all this stuff. And I was doing all this stuff and people were just like, like, how come, you know, there was always some sort of complaint. I guess you just kinda gotta roll with that and brush it off.

• 38:01Rich Roll?

  I'm getting, I get complaints. I've been doing intros of the interviews and I'm too long-winded. And they're like, get to it already. Geez, man. You know, like, I had, yeah, I had a few, but, but the way I dealt with it was upfront. I was like, the audio on this podcast is terrible. You know, I'm sorry. I'm working on it. I'm brand new to this. Now I've been doing it long enough where I can't make that excuse anymore. It's all about the mic though. Yeah. Like we have a third mic when we do three people and this mic is so much worse than the other two and the sound ends up being bad.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I kinda.

• 38:36Rich Roll?

  So we're upgrading some of the equipment, but uh, I mean, I just use GarageBand.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 38:41Rich Roll?

  I don't even have any filters or whatever.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  At some point, I think I, for some reason, I deleted that off my computer. I was like, I don't need this. Yeah. Cause I wasn't, yeah, I didn't, I didn't know what I was doing. I like, I didn't think I would need it in the future, but there's, um, there's another program. Um, it was like 20 bucks or 30 bucks. And I think I, I bought it and I just never got around to figuring out how it works. But, um, it was, was it Audacity?

• 39:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, maybe one, yeah, one of those.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so, you know, when I get back to it, I can, I can use that. But all, all the Mac stuff though, like GarageBand is probably a lot more, you know, easy, easier to learn. The interface is always easier than that stuff.

• 39:24Rich Roll?

  There's, you know, there's much better ways of doing it than I do, but you know, like.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  We'll figure it out as it goes. Yeah.

• 39:32Rich Roll?

  But your, the conversation with you is so compelling that people forget.

• 39:43Rich Roll?

  I want to get back into, you know, a little bit about, you know, your story and your background a little bit. I mean, I know you grew up, you grew up in Pittsburgh, the Pittsburgh area, right?

• 39:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:55Rich Roll?

  So, you know, what was going on when you were, you know, what kind of kid were you in high school? Were you playing all the sports, or were you the loner kid with the catcher in the rye?

• 40:03Speaker 02

  I was, uh, I was always involved in sports and stuff. Wasn't really that crazy about team sports, but I was always out in the basketball court playing with the older kids and stuff as a young kid growing up, played soccer. And was always into sports and just watching boxing and things like that was always something that I was into. And I was really into music and everything, too. And once I got to my teenage years, I fell in love with skateboarding. I actually fell in love with it for the first time when I was 10. And then didn't really have the money to get a good board or anything. And,

• 40:45Speaker 02

  you know, I mean, imagine trying to do like a triathlon or a hoppy or something, you know?

• 40:52Rich Roll?

  That's how everyone starts, though, you know?

• 40:53Speaker 02

  Sure, sure. You can start out with that, but then there's only so far you can take it when it falls apart because it's manufactured poorly, literally falls apart while you're riding it. And then, you know, you can't get a new one, then that was that. So, when I was 14, though, I got, I got a good board and, you know, my mom saved up for it and helped me out. And there was a skate park near where I lived. And from like the age of 14 to 19, or, I mean, 14 to 20, skateboarding was my life. And it wasn't just, "Yeah, I like to skate and my friends are skaters," that type of like scene thing. It was like I was really committed and I was always, I had aspirations of turning professional and, uh...

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Everyone that I was associated with and everything, they were also aspiring to that. It wasn't just like a hangout type of thing. I mean, you know, we enjoyed like that side of it too, but we were always filming, making videos, taking photos and I was always editing these little videos and putting them together and filming everybody and every time I would, you know, drive in the car and listen to, I was obsessed with skate videos, absolutely obsessed. I've seen, but like every skate video prior to the year 2000 ever made, I've probably watched it at least a dozen times each. But I would, I would sit and listen to music in the car as I was driving or getting driven

• 42:20Speaker 02

  somewhere and in my mind, I would just visualize like how a skate video would be edited to that music and, you know, like what kind of tricks and, you know, like would look cool. And I would just be visualizing skateboarding the entire time I listen to music and I still find myself doing that. So I was obsessed with skateboarding. I was, I was skating and I wasn't into like the, you know, I wasn't part of the jock crowd in high school and everything like that. I was just, I was just doing my own thing and most, most of the time, the, the people that I hung out with were all older and, and when I was high school age and all my friends were out of high school.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  So I would just, you know, hang out with them and, you know, I wasn't really, I wasn't really worried about attendance too much and things like that. I was, I was just.

• 43:11Rich Roll?

  Right, I mean, was skateboarding like an escape from something else that?

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, with skateboarding was just like my escape from everything that I didn't like about society and culture and, and the institution of public schooling and everything else. It was just like my, and, and I still think that there's so much freedom in that, in the way it is. I'm not, and I don't mean like going to a skate park where there's this synthetic environment and, you know, there's a guy that takes your money and everyone's wearing a helmet and, you know, this, you know, you wait your turn and everybody's watching you. I'm talking about like going and using an urban environment which was made for, you know.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Other purposes and turning that into spontaneous art that's only happening right at that moment. Yeah, you can capture it with video, but like, like it's not just a track or a course or something like that. It's, it's all these very interesting, uh, physical obstacles. And you're using them and they're all a little bit different and they've all got their own aesthetic. You're using them, this handrail, this marble ledge, this set of stairs. You know, the, like, the, the way that this, this, uh, architecture is made is kind of like a ramp. And you're using all of these things in your, in this urban environment to do the tricks that you choose,

• 44:39Speaker 02

  that, that you feel like you can pull off aesthetically and just, you know, this, creating this art.

• 44:46Rich Roll?

  It's like a performance art.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's awesome. Like, uh, there's just so much freedom involved with that and, and so much more freedom even than, than like, like MMA is cool, but, but it's, it's, it's a strict sport, you know? There's a set of rules and there's a guideline. You do it in, in this ring on this day. And you know what I mean? It's, it's, it's a different type of setup of skateboarding. You just had this certain amount of freedom that, uh, was really attracted to. And I still rarely feel that type of freedom and, and, and other activities. So, yeah, that's, that's something that, that was very, very dear to my heart was like real, real street skating. You know what I mean? That's the, like, not skate parks, but like,

• 45:27Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  real street skating. And what, what was great about it too is as a kid is like, it's, it's largely illegal. You know, even like just on a small scale, I don't mean like illegal, like, okay, you're going to jail forever.

• 45:39Rich Roll?

  There's this outlaw culture.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Right, right. But I mean, you're doing something that you're not supposed to do. I mean, and it's like, well, these, this corporation borrowed all this money from this other giant corporation, make this gigantic building and, you know, the, it's, it's like, there's all this stuff is made out of marble. And it's not really for anything. It's just to say like, look at this. It's really just this, like this.

• 46:03Rich Roll?

  It doesn't need to be marble. Just, it looks better.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:06Rich Roll?

  It's making a statement about the tenants of the building.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's, it's like, look at this. This is worth more than the homeless guy that sleeps on it. And that's what they're saying to us. You know what I mean? And we're like, you know what? Like, we're gonna use this. Like, we're gonna. We're gonna, and you know, getting chased out there by security guards and all that stuff is just, it's just part of the thrill of participating in that. And lots of times you pull off something and only your friends saw it. Nobody caught it on film or anything and it'll never be done again because you can never get into that spot again. It's like, hey, like, that's, that's kind of the beauty of it. So that's, that's something that I really enjoy. And just the physical act of it. I mean, landing a trick, like,

• 46:53Speaker 02

  that's, you know, that's just, there's, if it's, if it's a good one, you know what I mean? It's that there's something special about that. So.

• 47:01Rich Roll?

  Well, it's interesting. I mean, I think there's a, there's a sort of a theme that runs through, you know, your life a little bit in that you're attracted to these sports that allow you some sort of latitude for artistic expression. I mean, I think any great athlete who is performing at their peak, that is an art, you know, that is, that is their, they are practicing their art. But I think there are certain sports that lend themselves to that better than others. I mean, martial arts is, it's an art. It's in, it's in the name of the sport, you know, and skateboarding is less a competitive thing than an expressionistic thing.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:41Rich Roll?

  And then there's this other kind of aspect to it, this outlaw theme, you know, sort of, you know, to be a fighter is kind of an outlaw thing and skateboarding. And so this intersection of like art, athletic performance and kind of this, you know, because you're, you're like, kind of, you're, you're much more, at least you strike me as being much more kind of introspective and sensitive than the average kind of jock guy.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:08Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, you're not like a typical kind of jock guy, you know, like, oh yeah, I play sports. I love it. I was captain of the football team and I was prom king and all that kind of thing.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, that's, that's one great thing about skateboarding too, is like, you might be, you know, doing things, you know, in an outlaw-esque sort of way and, and, you know, sort of.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Right in the face of the, you know, this portrait of authority and just standing in front of it and, and doing what, what you do. But the thing, the difference is, is there's an aesthetic to it rather than just the kids that are like, oh, man, like, I don't care. I'm gonna go steal a pack of cigarettes from 7-Eleven. Like, you know what I mean? Like, the difference between doing that and then, then taking a bus downtown with all your friends and just cruising through the streets and just going to every single one of these amazing places and, and skating them until you get kicked out. I mean, there's, I feel, I feel it's a much higher ground. And then, yeah, the, the other thing is that,

• 49:17Speaker 02

  like you said, it's not necessarily competitive. It can be, you know, and it's competitive in a fun way. And in skateboarding, like, yes, the contests matter, but there's, what I loved about it is there were so many skateboarders who would never even messed with contests. They would, they weren't interested in contests at all. And then you, like, every now and then, they would jump in a contest just for fun, and they would only try what they wanted to try in the hardest tricks, and they might not even land them, and they would get like 48th place or something like that. And you'd look at the, the list of everybody, like, one through 50, even, you know, and you'd be like, oh, man, like, Daywon Song got like 50th place. How did that happen? It was because he doesn't care, because he's not worried

• 50:02Speaker 02

  about winning. He, he just tried-

• 50:04Rich Roll?

  What is score is, or how he measured up to somebody else.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, he just tried a trick that none of those guys could possibly land, and he spent his entire runtime trying it, and he might have finally landed it after five or six tries. And then it was like, yeah-

• 50:17Rich Roll?

  He didn't get enough points.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and the camaraderie was so great, you know? You had all these little factions, and you have the, the hesh guys, and the hippie guys, and you had the, the hip hop, like, guys, you know, there's all these, but everybody respected each other. You know what I mean? Like, that was, what was so cool about skateboarding was you had all these little, like, groups and stuff, but they all were amped up and, and excited and happy when, when somebody's video part came out that was really excellent, or they got a chance to go and skate with so and so, and, and they saw what they were doing. And, you know, everybody was into it. And that, that kind of camaraderie, you know, is- It's hard to come by in other sports, you know, so.

• 50:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:00Rich Roll?

  And I, that's a big attraction for me in, in, in ultra-distant sports. Because it's such a small, little world.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:09Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? There's no money. Nobody's doing it for, you know, anything other than they just, they love it and they're drawn to it. And so there's a communal kind of family vibe to it.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:20Rich Roll?

  Where, yeah, it's a race. It's competitive. There are guys that want to win, you know, and they're battling to do that. But, you know, those are the guys that are, that are going to stay at the finish line all night and watch the last guy come in. And they're just as excited to see that person, you know, make it to the finish or whatever. And it's just, you don't see that in too many sports. I mean, what is it? You know, what is the environment amongst fighters? I mean, what is that dynamic like?

• 51:45Speaker 02

  You know, there, there is a certain level of mutual respect and camaraderie that, that I think, you know, I, I mean, it, it pales in comparison to, to what I was just speaking about in skateboarding. But compared to a lot of other sports, there's a lot of camaraderie in MMA. And that's what, that's, that's one thing that, that's nice. I mean, you know, the, we have a lot of respect for each other, you know? As a sport gets bigger, there's more and more pressure on guys to go ahead and indulge in, in this sort of manufactured conflict type of thing in between each other. And I really feel like.

• 52:29Rich Roll?

  The showmanship kind of.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  You know.

• 52:32Rich Roll?

  Marketing hype.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. Unfortunately, that's what sells fights to a large degree is, is, you know, oh, this guy doesn't like this guy and they, they don't like each other in this. He said this and he said this. And the fans just, I mean, I mean, it just. They just go nuts over that. It's a certain, certain group of the fans just go crazy. When, um, you know, guys have a problem with each other and, um, I've never really, uh, indulged in that and I'm, I'm kind of happy that now I've gone this long and I've had, you know, over a decade in the sport and I've never been hung up on, you know, whoa,

• 53:14Speaker 02

  this guy said this. And anytime that I've had a quote unquote beef with somebody, it's never because I was trying to like hype up a fight or, or get a fight going with them. Um, it was just because I just happened to call them out on, you know, being a gimmicky person or something, which I, which I don't like, you know, and I've done that before, you know, but, but I don't even, I don't even care anymore about that sort of thing. It's just, and answering your question, no, I think, yeah, there is a, a good amount of camaraderie and mutual respect and, and, and amongst the fighters, but, but it being such a, a sport that, that has, there's so, there's still such an idea of contention.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Um, even if it's just a figment of the imagination of some of the fans, there's the idea of, oh, man, like.

• 54:06Rich Roll?

  Well, it's contentious by its, by its very nature.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  Sure, sure, sure, sure. It is, it is. But, but, but like that, that idea, you know, of like that, that contention and everything, that's, that's sort of, you know, uh, diminishes some of, of the, uh, of the camaraderie in a way, but, uh.

• 54:25Rich Roll?

  Well, it's a big, yeah, it's big business too. You know, there's a lot, there's a lot at stake for a lot of people. Your livelihood and your future and all of that.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:34Rich Roll?

  But I, I feel like there's this difference between, uh, you know, I mean, certainly, I'm, I'm no expert in MMA or UFC. I don't even know that much about it, other than like, you know, what a general person would know. I mean, I've seen some fights, but you know, it's not like I followed super closely. But I have this sense that, you know, people walk around with this idea of what you guys are like. You know what I mean?

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:58Rich Roll?

  And you see it reflected in. You know, the tough guy at the Grove who's wearing, you know, the affliction T-shirt. And he's got all the tattoos, got tons of tattoos and he's got the skull ring and the, you know, the necklace joker thing and all that kind of stuff. And that's, that's like, oh, that's what a UFC fighter looks like, or that's what that guy's idea of a UFC fighter is like. And I don't know, you know, too many fighters, but I've met a handful of them and I've never met anybody who really does it, who bears any resemblance to that guy.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Cause those guys, those guys rarely make it. They rarely make it because it takes so much to, to get to, to the, the, the point where you're really, and you know, and like lots of times, if they make it that far, they will have changed along the way and they will have opened themselves up and become, you know, a, a lot more realistic about themselves and about life. And they probably will ditch that sort of insecure, you know, tough guy persona, um, because of what they had to go through to get there.

• 56:08Rich Roll?

  Right. Because that essentially what you're saying is that's kind of like a mask. Like somebody sort of saying, you know, has created this identity around like, I'm a tough guy or whatever. And behind that is some kind of fear or insecurity.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 56:19Rich Roll?

  And if you're actually really going to go to the mat and like do this and exert, you know, put the time in and the years and years and years of training and discipline, like any top level athlete has to do to excel in any sport that you're going to get stripped down, you're going to learn more about yourself, you're going to ground yourself and then you're not going to be that guy anymore.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so yeah, with fighting either, in my experience, like you're saying, yeah, they either don't start out that way, or if they do start out that way, they end up

• 56:47Rich Roll?

  They get their ass kicked.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Right. And then, yeah. And then they, and then that's the time when you need to decide, okay, well, um, like all this stuff I was doing was fake. And am I gonna continue on with this and, and allow myself to, to learn from this experience and grow and, and take this as far as I can? Or am I going to stop? Where I'm at right now and just, you know, and that's, that's the thing. I mean, I couldn't live with myself if I, if I stopped halfway with something that I was passionate about. So, yeah, those guys, you know, that, that's, that's just some of the, um, that, that's, that's an idea, a stereotype. And, and I think a lot of, a small percentage of the

• 57:33Speaker 02

  fans, the ones that, there, there's good fans. There's a lot of good fans out there. And they're the ones who know what I'm talking about. When they go to a live UFC, they, they have to roll their eyes and bite their tongue at the, you know, guys that are, you know, all cracked out on alcohol, just screaming obscenities at the fighters and everything. And those are the guys with the, with the affliction shirts and the, and the tribal tattoos and everything else, you know, those, that's, that's, that's them. And, and the, and that's a, there's a percentage of fans that, that embody that. And, you know, that's just, that's just part of the, uh, the, the way it goes. But I fight for the people who,

• 58:14Speaker 02

  who appreciate, um, the art that's unfolding. And, and that's, those, those are the fans that I want to associate with, not, not the, uh, the, the insecure fake tough guys, you know? There's nothing worse than fake tough guys.

• 58:26Rich Roll?

  I'm sure you've come across more than a few of those.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:30Rich Roll?

  So, so, all right. So we're, we have this, again, this theme of, of, uh, you know, artistry, starting with skateboarding, going through your fighting, into the photography, maybe into cinematography. But where does, so where does skateboarding take you? And where do you, where does the sort of, you know, fighting begin?

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. What ended up happening was, um, I took skateboarding pretty much, I wouldn't say I took it as far as I could possibly take it, but I took it as far as I could take it, um, where I lived. Um, I lived in a, like, Western Pennsylvania isn't exactly the greatest place to be if you're involved in street skating. So, uh, When I was around eighteen or nineteen, all my friends who were serious about it, everyone that I skateboarded with and was, you know, like moving forward on this path with, they either stopped skateboarding because they fell into what happens in that region,

• 59:33Speaker 02

  which is get a job at the grocery store and try to become manager in ten years. Or they moved away to pursue being pro, either like down Tampa, which is the skate park at Tampa, and the scene down there was really big at that time. Or they moved to California, obviously. And so I was stuck in this situation where I really didn't, you know, didn't have the money to like get a car and travel anywhere, you know, do anything and keep skateboarding. And then I got a job and, you know, I got a really awesome job at that time.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  I was lucky. I was working at an animal sanctuary, a farmed animal sanctuary. So I got to be like a caretaker and work with, like they had sheep and goats and rabbits and chickens and cows and pigs and just all these really cool animals. And we did a lot of rescuing of animals that were in really bad situations. It was all farm animals. So that was cool.

• 1:00:39Rich Roll?

  That's really, we're gonna get into that in a little bit, but that's really where the whole, you know, sort of vegan thing began for you, right?

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's when I saw like, hey, there's other people doing it. You know what I mean? Like there's other people that are dedicating their lives to this. And it's not like, it's not completely out of the realm of possibility to do this. And that's not when I became vegan. I was actually, at the time, I was really, it was cool to meet these people and everything. And it was awesome to, I mean, I'm still really good friends with the people who ran the farm. They uh, they were cool. I just wasn't sure if I really liked the whole like, like this is a vegan scene type of idea, right? You know what I mean? Like rather than like the, the personal spiritual side of it.

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  But regardless of any of that, like, like I was, it was a really cool job. It was a great opportunity for me. But while that was happening, I was living in a very rural area and there wasn't really many, much I could do as far as skateboarding. So months and months would go by and I wasn't able to do it and you know, I was just working and working and didn't really have access to transportation or anything. And I didn't really have anyone to, to do it with. And, and so like it started to just fade and like while that was happening, I was really depressed. But I started, um, there, there was a guy, uh, the whole time growing up, even though I was skateboarding, I was really into the UFC and fighting as it was happening.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  And this is back before it was even a sport, when it was just like a spectacle. It was just like, you know, real life blood sport, you know, type of thing. And I was watching all of the UFC's, all these years and all the smaller organizations too. And I was keeping an eye on it and I was really interested in it. And I was watching it turn from a spectacle into a sport. I was watching it go from being, um, you know, just this, this silly thing.

• 1:02:37Rich Roll?

  Like crazy drunk guys in a cage, you know?

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:40Rich Roll?

  Trying to cream each other.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. There was a couple of those guys, but it wasn't, it wasn't really crazy drunk guys. It was crazy drunk fans watching, um, guys that knew what they were doing, um, like the Gracies and stuff, fight karate masters, supposed karate masters. Who had no idea what they were doing. And, and, and it was, you know, sort of a mismatch type of thing. But it was, it was interesting in the fact that they would have a sumo wrestler and they would have a professional boxer. And they would have a jujitsu guy and they would have a guy that just did collegiate wrestling and they would have a dude who was just, you know, a legitimate tough guy, you know, and they would

• 1:03:23Rich Roll?

  Who rises to the top in that equation and who is the guy who's, you know, the first guy to put all those together into an equation that's gonna make him unbeatable.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  And when you started, then you started seeing these guys, it's like, wait a minute, this guy isn't just a martial artist or a tough guy, he's an athlete. Look at him, he's got a boxing background and a wrestling background, you know, guys like Don Fry started showing up and it was like, now wait a minute, like, now there's something to it. And then, you know, John Peretti was this guy who was doing this, this extreme fighting promotion and he started implementing weight classes and having these lighter guys come in and they were like really fast and there was that dynamic. And I was watching this all unfold and so anyway, but when skateboarding wasn't happening for me,

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  there was a guy who knew jujitsu, who came from, he was stationed at Camp Pendleton in the Marines in San Diego and he moved back to Pennsylvania. And he was the only person in the area that really knew jujitsu. And I was like, you know, cause I mean, you could, in Pennsylvania, you can go down any street and do some silly taekwondo and, and you know, and that's, that's cool if you like the art, but, but it's not gonna help you in the UFC or in with fighting. So, so I wanted to learn jujitsu and I hooked up with this guy. And we just started training and then, man, it was just, I just became obsessed.

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  I just loved it and I progressed quickly, you know, right away, cause I was really into it and I studied it and I, and you know, within a year, I did my first amateur tournament.

• 1:05:06Rich Roll?

  And you had never, you hadn't boxed before, you weren't a wrestler in high school or anything like that?

• 1:05:10Speaker 02

  No, no, I could, the singlet really, that, that, that really turned me off. If they would just like let, I think, I think they would recruit a lot more people into wrestling if they didn't have that uniform. I mean, it wasn't like I was, I was some sort of like homophobic teenager or something like that, but I mean, when you're, when you're a young guy, like trying to like, figure out what you're all about and like, then, you know, it's like, hey, wear a leotard while you're wrestling some other guy, it's just. That turned me off. And then unfortunately, the people who were involved in stuff like that, like the jock type of crowd, they hated me. And I was just like, all right, like, you know.

• 1:05:53Rich Roll?

  That's unfortunate. I bet you would have been a great high school wrestler, though. I mean, you have the perfect build for it.

• 1:05:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a lot of people are like, yeah, didn't you wrestle in high school? Pennsylvania is all about wrestling.

• 1:06:04Rich Roll?

  The DuPont thing.

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, that's horrible. Yeah, no, I was skipping school and skateboarding downtown. That's what I was doing.

• 1:06:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:06:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you have some interesting ideas about education and public education. You were talking about that on Joe's show a little bit.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's just, it's hard for me to watch the way that things are and not feel like, hey, you know, I think the parents sometimes need to take a step outside and say, hey, listen, this isn't working. I'm going to educate my kid on their own. I mean, I grew up in a, like, a pretty crappy area. And when I was going to, like, when I was in my formative years as a young man, like, going through middle school or junior high or whatever you want to call it, that age, it was, I was in a really rough school. And

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  it was, you know, a lot of impoverished families and kids that really didn't have any role models or guidance. And there were just fights all the time. And it was just like a really, it was like a jail type of environment, really. You know, it was like prison, you know, and.

• 1:07:23Rich Roll?

  Just let's just hold these guys for four years and.

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:27Rich Roll?

  Release them.

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  Exactly. And every day was just like, let's get through the day. And nobody really cared. And it was just, you know, hand out worksheets and stuff. And this, that sort of thing. I mean, not all schools are like that. But the fact that there is no, like, uniform system among the public school system in the United States, and you can. Go drive down one street and get your kids in a school that you're, oh, you're lucky. Like, the teachers are treated well here. You know, the curriculum is good. If somebody's struggling, you know, like, everybody works to help that person. And, you know, it's a good group environment.

• 1:08:13Speaker 02

  And then other school right down the street from that can be the worst situation that you could possibly expect for putting your kids in. And I mean, listen, like, as parents, you know, we all have fears. And, like, I don't want to be the guy that shelters my kid. I want, I want her to understand everything about the world and how to deal with the positives and the negatives of groups and of, you know, of being a part of the world and society. And, and I don't want to, like, shelter her from that. Oh, no, you're getting picked on at school. Or, oh, no, that, like, those people don't like you. Oh, we're gonna, you know, I don't want to shelter her.

• 1:08:55Speaker 02

  But at the same time, it's like, the situation is not good. You've got a lot of people who are parents who are overworked and apathetic. And they just send their kids off to these places where the, their, their entire value system is getting changed and they don't realize what was, what's happening. And I mean, it happened to me. I mean, I went from being like a really, like, enthusiastic kid who loved life and was very hopeful to being completely depressed and having no, no guidance or anything and having absolutely no faith in academics. And, and that's, I think, the biggest problem is, like, the, the kids need to be, need

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  to know that they can pick what they want to learn and they can, and they can excel They'll be supported in that. They'll be supported in it rather than just like, me, I remember just hating school, just hating it. It's just like, man, like, I'm gonna get messed with. Like, there's just, all it is gonna be is just a bunch of fights. The teachers don't care. This, the work is so tedious and boring. And, and, you know, what you end up learning in there, I mean, my God, I can't, I can't even imagine. Like putting my kid through the schooling that I went to. I mean, the crap that they were teaching in history, it boggles my mind.

• 1:10:19Rich Roll?

  You know, as a parent, you love your kids, you want what's best for them. And if you're gonna kind of, you know, abdicate control over their day by dropping them off somewhere, you would hope that that would be an environment that would be inspiring, you know, and is sort of elevating them and raising the bar. And for the most part, you know, there's great schools out there, of course, but, you know, there's a lot of schools that aren't. And kids are not inspired by what they're experiencing on a daily basis in school. And it's difficult, man. I mean, we're, you know, we're navigating this same thing, you know? We've decided to homeschool all our kids.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  Oh, that's great.

• 1:11:00Rich Roll?

  It's an evolving experiment. You know what I mean? It's like, it's not like I have it all figured out, or Julie has it all figured out. And it was really motivated by Mathis, who's now nine. We had her in all, you know, we had her in like every school in the area. We had her here, and it's like, it's not working out there. Let's move her over here. Let's move her here. And everywhere she went, there was like, there was just something about Mathis that was just a little bit left of center where it wasn't working. And she, and we try, I would listen, you know, like, I didn't want to homeschool her, you know, it's like, you know, I'm busy, man. I got stuff to do. But, you know, she would, even after a couple of weeks, she'd start coming home from school, and I could see her energy like

• 1:11:43Rich Roll?

  level dwindling, or like that sparkle in her eye. And she's like, you know, she's got a lot of enthusiasm, she's got a lot of opinions, and she dresses up in these crazy outfits and wants to go to school and that. And then the other kids look at her weird or say something, and then she gets deflated. And it's like, I can't, you know, I went through a lot of that in junior high and in high school. And I was like, I cannot tolerate that with her. And it's that weird line, like you were saying, you don't want to shelter them from the world. It's like, part of that is the world. You know, you gotta like, sort of create your own personal defense mechanism about whatever's coming at you. But at the same time, you

• 1:12:21Rich Roll?

  know, the most important thing to me is their self-esteem. Like, that has to be fostered and intact. And so, really, the homeschool thing...

• 1:12:33Rich Roll?

  Was born out of that. And this past year, we did it with a couple of other families and we had most of the classes here and they're all different ages. Like, where did we come up with this idea that you, you know, you go to a classroom and everyone's your age. You know what I mean? We had this amazing experience last year where we had, you know, kids that range from, you know, five years old to 14 and they were, the older ones would teach the younger ones and and you let the younger ones, you know, you're still covering the bases, like they're learning what they need to learn, but at the same time, like letting them, empowering them to take the lead a little bit and say, we want to learn about this.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10Rich Roll?

  And then supporting that and go, okay, let's learn about that. Let's learn about, you know, what, let's learn about ancient Rome. And then just getting every book you can that's appropriate for their age and watching a bunch of movies and documentaries and just going super deep into that.

• 1:13:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:22Rich Roll?

  Until you're like, all right, we did that. Like, what's next now?

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, that's great. I mean, that's, that's awesome. I would really, I really, you know, want to homeschool my daughter. I just, it's just whether or not I can pull it off. I just, I just don't know how I can make that happen right now. But one of the schools that I'm looking into,

• 1:13:45Speaker 02

  they're not quite on the same level, but what's great about them is, is that they are actually trying to do that where they have like three different age groups, all in the same, in the same classroom. And it's a large classroom, three teachers in a large classroom and they have three different age groups and they're not separating them. They're, you know, they're, they're, they're all, they're all working together. And I think, I think that's, that's a good idea, but we'll, we'll see how that unfolds. But, but yeah, basically, it's, it's such a hard decision. I mean, you don't, one thing, you don't want to teach them. To run from these things, but then the other hand, it's like everyone's an individual.

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  And they, these kids have so many different ways of expressing themselves that are completely innocent and natural still at this age. And for you to just put them in a situation where they have to deal with a bunch of peers that, you know, like just turn on them and don't understand.

• 1:14:50Rich Roll?

  Right, or that thing that's specific to their individuality they learn early on, like, oh, it's not safe to express that. So you just, not doing that anymore. And then it goes away. And that's like tragic.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  That's so tragic. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's life right there. And that's such, such an important part of their life and who they are as an individual. And then it gets taken away. You know, that's, that's not good. Not good at all, man.

• 1:15:16Rich Roll?

  Right. So I'm sorry you had that experience, but I would imagine that Nova is gonna have very different experience.

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm just, just gonna keep, keep doing my best. And, and, and, you know, when the time comes to put my foot down about something, I gotta do it, you know, like, like, I just, my, my goal in life is to make sure that she has the best opportunities that, that she possibly can. And, and then I just let her, let her take the reins from there. Because then that'll be the beautiful thing. And whatever she decides to do is, is cool with me. You know what I mean? As long as, as long as she's respecting herself while she does it, man. That's, that's, and I think, I think I planted some good seeds in her. And, and I just, I just wanna make sure that she doesn't, doesn't get caught up in, in

• 1:16:09Speaker 02

  the system the way that it is. And I think, like, yeah, like you were asking, why is it that, that, that we just decided some, at some point, that everybody this age stays together? Everybody in this age stays together? I think it's just because they wanted to make a system. And, and they decided to, to make a system based on grades and age groups. And you learn this, and you learn this, and you learn this. But not everybody needs to fall into that. You know, that's what's, if, if we've learned anything about ourselves as human beings, it should be that we are all individuals. And yeah, some of us are gonna gravitate towards what the majority does.

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  But that doesn't mean that the ones who are individuals should be given less attention or treated like there's something wrong with them.

• 1:16:59Rich Roll?

  Marginalized.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, marginalized, yeah.

• 1:17:09Rich Roll?

  So when high school was done, I mean, that was it for school for you?

• 1:17:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:13Rich Roll?

  You're in the animals, you're working at the animal sanctuary and you're starting to get into jujitsu.

• 1:17:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:17:18Rich Roll?

  You go to this first tournament.

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I did like, after like six months, I did like a few like grappling tournaments, which weren't like full fighting, it's just like grappling and I like the competition. And so like, once I'd been doing it for about a year, I went and did an amateur tournament, amateur MMA tournament. And I didn't even have a corner person. I drove from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati and by myself. And I fought three fights in one night and won all of them by submission. I was like, that was the most amazing feeling in the world. I was just like, wow, I was like, I can't believe that. Like, the crowd was like, I'll cheer it for me. And I was like, you know, just threw myself into this situation where I was like,

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  you know, I had the chance to really shine and I did. And I was like, man, I've got to go for this, I've got to go for this.

• 1:18:11Rich Roll?

  I mean, did you know in that moment, like, did something click and you're like, my life just changed?

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I remember driving home and I remember because I had like, I brought my video camera with me. I didn't have anyone to film it, so I like sat it on the ring. And like, you could see some of it. And I remember like stopping at a rest stop that night on my way back home to like, get it, catch a couple hours of sleep. And I was like, let me, let me see if any of this recorded. And I was watching some of the fight and I was like, and I saw it. And I was like, wow, I did that, I did that. And I couldn't sleep. I was like, all right, I'm wired now, I'm going to keep driving. I pulled an all nighter and drove all the way back. But it was like, that feeling, yeah, I mean, that's something special, you know? Like that, that feeling when you really love something or are passionate about it.

• 1:18:57Speaker 02

  And then you, you follow through with it and you excel and you actually pull it off. And it's a good feeling. And every fighter who's ever been.

• 1:19:09Speaker 02

  Authentic about their pursuit and has won the fight that they worked so hard for and that they believed in, knows that feeling. It's an amazing feeling. And some are more special than others. But yeah, at that moment, I knew that this is what I wanted to do for a while. And then started training with more people in the area, a few more guys that were doing MMA, not just Jiu Jitsu were in the area. And I started driving to downtown Pittsburgh every night and training with these guys. And just kept going from there. And then one guy was like, hey, I'm moving out to California. My aunt lives in Huntington Beach. And I'm

• 1:19:52Speaker 02

  gonna go out there and try to train out there. And I'm like, he's like, you want to come with me? And I'm like, yeah.

• 1:20:00Rich Roll?

  How old were you then?

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  I was 20. And I quit my job at UPS that I was working at. And I remember the manager was just like, I was like, I was kind of like, you know, doing my normal, like unmotivated, self-deprecating, like sort of, oh, yeah, I'm gonna try this. And I don't know if it's gonna work out. And he just looked at me, he's like, it's probably not gonna work out. And I remember him saying that to me. And I was just like, what a dick. And I was like, I was like, all right. And it's cool. Because stuff like that always used to motivate me. Like even skateboarding, like if we went to this giant set of stairs or something, and somebody would be like, oh, you, no one can do that. You can't do that. I would just be like, all right, we'll see. But I would do it. So anytime someone would tell me I can't

• 1:20:47Speaker 02

  do something, I would.

• 1:20:48Rich Roll?

  Do you remember the name of the UPS, your boss at UPS? You ever give him a shout out?

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  Man, I think his name was.

• 1:20:55Rich Roll?

  Did you ever see that guy again?

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  No, no. I think his name was Bernie. But.

• 1:21:00Rich Roll?

  All right, Bernie, you were wrong.

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, but.

• 1:21:04Rich Roll?

  But you should thank him, I guess. He motivated you, right?

• 1:21:06Speaker 02

  The motivation, man. You get motivation from all different places. But, but yeah, we was in Huntington Beach for a little bit, and then just moved to more towards like El Segundo and started training with these guys out there with these real pros. And then. A million ups and downs and, and just stuck with it all through the years.

• 1:21:27Rich Roll?

  I mean, was that like going from first grade to college when you just stepped into like the real deal?

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  The training too, that was the main thing. Like, one thing I was surprised, I was like, yeah, these guys are better than me, that, you know, like, and everything, but they weren't destroying me. Like, like my, my peers at this gym, the, the real pros, like, that I looked up to and watched fight, it wasn't like I had no business being there. I could hang, and that was encouraging. What was kind of discouraging was the fact that, like, when I started to really train full time, it was, it was a shock to my body because, I mean, these guys had been wrestling at a high level since they were very young and went through the rigorous training that,

• 1:22:15Speaker 02

  that freestyle wrestlers have to go through to, to like, go through the Olympic trials and even before that, like, all this stuff in, uh, division one wrestling is, is crazy hard with the training, and they've been doing that for years and years, so their bodies had adapted and, and they, they could deal with that. And with me, I was trying to do the conditioning and all this Olympic lifting.

• 1:22:36Rich Roll?

  And learning the skill part.

• 1:22:37Speaker 02

  And learning the skill part, and, and like, yeah.

• 1:22:40Rich Roll?

  People don't realize, like, there's a, there's a muscle memory to that, you know, that's powerful. Like, if you started wrestling when you were 11, you know, and wrestled through high school, you could stop for eight years and, and pick it back up pretty quickly. I mean, I just know from swimming, which isn't nearly as skill intensive, that because I learned at a young age and did it so, so often, and, you know, did so much of it, I could take years and years and years off and hop in the pool and a week later, I'm like, you know, I'm fine. You know what I mean? Like, my, you just, so there's the, you know, the, I might not be conditioned, but you can always take care of that, but the actual skill, like, knowing what to do, how to move your body in that, that very specific way, that takes years and years and years of training

• 1:23:22Rich Roll?

  to kind of hone in, is, is just there all the time unconsciously.

• 1:23:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the type of thing that can save you from injury too, because when you get in those weird positions where, you know, Not everything in the technique went right, then you you know how to pull your body back to center.

• 1:23:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:23:38Speaker 02

  It's almost like.

• 1:23:39Rich Roll?

  And you're not, you don't have to think about it.

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:41Rich Roll?

  You just do it, right?

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:42Rich Roll?

  Because you've you did, you've been doing that for years.

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah, so the first few years I ran into a lot of injuries, you know, like I would, I would get injured doing the Olympic lifting. I would get injured, you know, doing like sparring and grappling with these guys. And and so there were some setbacks there, but I just.

• 1:24:00Rich Roll?

  I mean, just to interject, sorry, I didn't want to throw you off, but like one question would be, I mean, is there anyone else in the sport who's competed at your level? That had less of like an athletic background? I mean, your background was skateboarding. You know what I mean? Like you.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:24:15Rich Roll?

  Like.

• 1:24:16Speaker 02

  It's it's our, at the time, I don't, at the time, there was probably more of that because there was more guys. Yeah, it was so new, but now it's like, like these kids that are coming up now, man, like, like the guys that are like 21, 22 now.

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  Man, like I'm looking at these guys and I'm just like, geez, like I, like I wish.

• 1:24:38Rich Roll?

  No weak spots.

• 1:24:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then, you know, and so, so what it becomes now is, is, is the mental side of it, you know? Because we're seeing like, like a guy like me, I've been there and done that and I've been doing this for so many years. And then I see this young kid who's like, just so good and has been, you know, like his learning and formative years have, he's been given the best techniques and all this new training. And and and he's been doing it since he was 15 or 16 and, you know, he's ready to go now, but then now it's like, okay, like, how do you deal with adversity in the fight? And like, how do you flow through it? And and can you, can you deal with, with not winning every moment of the fight? Can you deal with, you know, the way the crowd is reacting?

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  Is that going to get in your head? You know, those types of things. And that's one thing, when I was living in Vegas for a little while and training in a room full of just nothing but like high level pros. There was like, there would be these guys who are really good and they were young though, and they were up and coming and they would come into the gym. And the one thing, like when they were confident and you couldn't deal with the speed and it was just like, oh man, like this kid's so good. But then if you big brothered them, they would fold lots of times. And that's the whole thing about like the competitiveness is you could sometimes you just gotta be a bully, you know what I mean? And this is one of the sports that you're allowed to do that.

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  So, so like that's, that's what, I remember Tyson Griffin saying that one time, he's, he's this other fighter in the UFC and there was, there was some, some young guys that were coming in that were up and coming and they were, they really good. And he was just like, yeah, man, you just, you just gotta put the big brother thing on them, you know what I mean? And I started doing that and I was like, yeah, and it's just, it's just mental. It's just mental.

• 1:26:29Rich Roll?

  Well, because that, yeah, that, that's, that's, that only comes with experience, right? You gotta have your highs and your lows to develop that.

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  Yep. It's, I mean, I can imagine, um, you know, something like that going on, you know, in your sport, you know, like, like with somebody who is just like, wow, look at the pace that this guy's keeping, it's just amazing. But then if you, you catch up to him and pass him and then fall, yeah, and then fall back and then pass him again, just show, show them that you can do it whenever you want, you know what I mean? Like that type of thing, like they can, you know?

• 1:27:02Rich Roll?

  Screw the people.

• 1:27:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:04Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, I mean, you know, at that, at the highest level, you know, there's, you know, a lot of talented people and they're all training super, super hard. So what distinguishes the guy who's on top of the podium or the guy who's winning the match and it's, it's that, you know? And I don't know that that gets enough kind of structured attention and training. I mean, everybody knows it's important.

• 1:27:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:27:26Rich Roll?

  And when you're training, it's like, oh, here's what I'm doing for my training today. And you know what your workout is, but where's the, where's the attention to the mental aspect of it? Like, we all know we need to develop that, that mental skill, but I don't know that, I think there's still a lot of room for growth in all sports as to how you kind of take that and put it into a structure that gets incorporated into your daily routine where you're giving it like focus in some kind of way that you're developing it.

• 1:27:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, true. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's gonna be interesting to see how, how all these sports evolve because really they're For the most part, I mean, all of these sports that we're all interested in, and even the ones that are the most popular sports in the world, in the format that they're presented in, they're still all pretty, very, very young.

• 1:28:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I mean, UFC, MMA is brand new.

• 1:28:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a baby.

• 1:28:22Rich Roll?

  You know, in the world of sports, I mean, triathlon is pretty brand new. Ironman didn't even exist until 1979. And historically, you know, I guess there's a lot of similarities with mixed martial arts because you're taking different sports and creating a hybrid out of that, right? So when triathlon began, it was like, alright, well, here's the guy who's a really good cyclist who's being a triathlete now, or here's a guy who is a great college runner.

• 1:28:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:28:45Rich Roll?

  Or whatever, and then they're trying to catch up in the other sports. But now, you know, at the Olympic level, these guys are, they're just bulletproof in all three because they didn't start as a swimmer or runner, they started as a triathlete very young. So they're like developing that from the beginning. And so now that's what you're seeing in, you know, what you were just saying about MMA. It's like, they're not high school wrestlers, they're starting, they're MMA fighters from the beginning.

• 1:29:11Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah, it's total parallel. That's a perfect way to explain it. I mean, yeah, before you had, oh, this is a boxer.

• 1:29:20Rich Roll?

  He's a boxer, he's trying to figure out how to wrestle, but you know, all you have to do is get him down on the mat and you win, right?

• 1:29:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, like here's this jiu-jitsu guy, his stand-up's not too good, he doesn't like getting hit. Now we've got everything, we've got guys that they are MMA fighters from the beginning, just like you said, yeah. So, so yeah, it's a game changer. And then all these little things become so important. The little things aren't that important until you get to the very top. And then at the very top, you know, yeah, then it's like, well, that guy just, he had, there was something mental that he had that was a little bit different. And that's one of the things that I've been learning a lot lately is that, you know, mental toughness is much more about pliability and flow.

• 1:30:10Speaker 02

  Then then about toughing through something, you know, and you know, this, you know, it's not about smashing through the wall. It's about digging under it. Sometimes they're crawling over it.

• 1:30:21Rich Roll?

  Just adapting to the adapting to the situation that you find yourself in.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, like that's mental toughness is a lot more about about being like water than than it is about just not, you know.

• 1:30:34Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:36Rich Roll?

  I like that. That's cool. I never really thought about it that way, but that makes a lot of sense.

• 1:30:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:42Rich Roll?

  So, um, so you're having this early success, right? And you're like, all right, man, I'm in California. I'm like, I'm in there with the big boys now. So, yeah, so when when does the big, you know, kind of break happen?

• 1:30:55Speaker 02

  Well, there was, it wasn't immediate. I mean, I moved out into California 2002. And then, um, there was a lot of ups and downs and and there was a lot of injuries and having to wait on the sideline while while while like, you know, I couldn't get any fights. And then, once I was, um, starting to to be, you know, healthy again, it was really hard to get fights. And, uh, you know, I had like a, I was relatively unknown, but I had a pretty good record and it was hard to get people to fight. Because it's still like that in the in the low ranks and in the, uh, the small shows.

• 1:31:33Rich Roll?

  Just have to, you gotta take the fight you can get, or you gotta fight the guy who's way above you or?

• 1:31:38Speaker 02

  Well, well, it's more like this. It's like everybody out there wants an easy opponent. And even the guys who are really good, they've got like their little manager or their coach that's like, like, oh, well, you know, he's five and oh, but, you know, we don't want to put him in against another guy who's five and oh, we just, you know, like, we want him to have an easy fight because they want to pad his record. And see, boxing has been around for a long time. And boxing's been established. So boxing works that way. There's fighters who are destined for something great, and then there's opponents. And lots of times a fighter that's destined for something great takes a couple of losses and then. The next thing you know, every fight that they have is win-loss, win-loss, and then their

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  record's tarnished and now they're just an opponent. And MMA really, you know, they're trying to, guys are trying to do that to an extent, and they were back then too. And so it was hard for me to get fights.

• 1:32:35Rich Roll?

  And then And once you're an opponent, then you're just always, you're like

• 1:32:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they don't care.

• 1:32:40Rich Roll?

  You're like a journeyman fighter, but you're never gonna get your big shot.

• 1:32:43Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that's, one thing is at least different about MMA is it doesn't really matter what your record is. I mean, yeah, if you've got a great record, you know, it's a nice little feather in your cap or whatever, and it looks good, but it's about what you've done lately. You know, I've watched guys who had like just abysmal records and like lost as much as they won, or not abysmal, but you know, just like, not a great record at all even for MMA, and then they just all of a sudden found their groove and went on a six, six-fight win streak and all of a sudden like, that's all it takes and they're fighting for the title now. You know what I mean? And so

• 1:33:24Rich Roll?

  So it's not as rigid as boxing, like you can

• 1:33:28Speaker 02

  No, because the thing about boxing is, is those guys that are so great that compile these amazing records, they could have been beating better fighters, but they don't put them in there against better fighters, and they're not really fighting anybody.

• 1:33:43Rich Roll?

  They're making business decisions, they're not taking risks.

• 1:33:44Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah. So, so, yeah, I was just, I was just doing what I could and then some things that seemed at the time like they were stifling me, ended up being good opportunities. Like I, I won a few tournaments and then I signed with this small company called King of the Cage and they were paying me really not much. They were paying me more than I was getting paid, but I mean, I was fighting for like 200 bucks before. So then, like this company's paying me like a little bit more than that. And I'm like, oh, okay, this is all right. But then they signed me to an exclusive contract. And when they did that,

• 1:34:26Speaker 02

  It was for like two years and right when they did that was when the UFC decided to bring my weight class back. And so I was like, oh no. And I was stuck in this contract and that was like the bane of my life. And, and the, you know, the, the promoter of that,

• 1:34:41Speaker 02

  of that.

• 1:34:42Rich Roll?

  Sorry, the motorcycles. We rolled up the garage door. So, sorry about the traffic noise. Don't, don't send me a bunch of tweets about the audio.

• 1:34:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, come on guys. Enough with the complaining. Man, I, I put up with enough of that when I was doing the podcast. But, but yeah. So, so basically, um, like that was, that was like the story of my life is, oh, you know, I would complain about it all the time. I'm stuck in this contract. But, um, getting through that ended up being really good because then, um, once I got out, I got some really good opportunities and I got out right at the right time to, uh, to, to take this opportunity to, to do the ultimate fighter show. And, um, once I, I hopped in that, I just, it was.

• 1:35:31Rich Roll?

  I mean, how did that happen though? There are scouts that are showing up at fights, looking for who's going to be on the show?

• 1:35:36Speaker 02

  No. What happened was I had just, my last fight on the contract for that King of the Cage company, they set me up with the, had me fight this guy who was, and I had a 12 fight win streak at the time. And, um, they had me fight a guy who was a wrestler and I fought him in his home state. And, uh, the, the way the fight went, it was one of the few fights that I really, really dispute. And there's a couple questionable decisions I've been involved with, but there was a reason. It was my last fight on the contract. The guy knew I was leaving the company and the fight was close and they gave the decision to the other guy so that they can have a champion. You know what I mean? And, and I

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  was really bummed out about it at the time, but like, looking back, I mean, who cares? And so I lost the, the title and then I immediately got a shot in, at the time, the second biggest organization in the world, which was called Pride, which is this Japanese organization. And they just threw me to the wolves. I fought Sakurai, who was the number two fighter in that weight class in the world at the time. And I lost.

• 1:36:45Rich Roll?

  Lightweight, lightweight?

• 1:36:46Speaker 02

  Well, it's funny because.

• 1:36:49Rich Roll?

  Class above and dropped back down.

• 1:36:50Speaker 02

  Well, no. What, what happened was I was fighting at lightweight. And then in Pride, their lightweight division was five pounds more, which is 160. But what happened was, they came over to the United States to throw that event, the one that I was in. And when they did, the commission in Nevada is like, hey, 155 is lightweight. So if you guys want to do your 160 thing, that's fine, but we're just gonna call it a catch weight. And so it's not gonna be like an actual lightweight fight. And they're like, oh yeah, that's fine, 160. So the dude shows up and they're like, um, he can't make 160, he can make 165. And I'm like, whoa, um, like, alright, well I'm walking-

• 1:37:33Rich Roll?

  And you're at like 155 at the time?

• 1:37:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and so I'm walking around at 160 and he's walking at 178 or whatever, like sweating, trying to cut. And so he barely squeezes on at 164, but this makes me sound like I'm making excuses. But anyway, he was really good, he had his stuff together. And I fought him and I lost that fight. It was a good fight though, I got some fans from it. It was an exciting fight and I did what I could and so it was good. And then after that fight, it was kinda like, wow, I went through all this stuff. I was in this exclusive contract I was stuck in. And then I kinda got, you know, like my one big shot against this like great guy.

• 1:38:20Speaker 02

  And, you know, like I didn't do what I was supposed to do, I wonder what I'm gonna do now. And while I was thinking about it, then the, a friend of mine had been on The Ultimate Fighter the season before, the one they were about to film. And that's basically how everyone got on was references from guys who had been on before, really. They would hold these tryouts for The Ultimate Fighter, which I was never involved in. And a lot of these guys would show up and they'd hit pads and they'd do a little this and they'd do a little of that and then-

• 1:38:52Rich Roll?

  I mean, they do that like American Idol style, where they go around all the town, you know, all over America? Like, we're gonna discover the next fight?

• 1:38:59Speaker 02

  What they did was, they would hold it in Vegas and then they would just have everybody-

• 1:39:03Rich Roll?

  People would show up?

• 1:39:04Speaker 02

  -would fly out and spend their own money to come out there and try to like wow somebody for their little three minutes that they have or something. It was weird and I don't know how you can see anything about a person by watching them hit pads because I know some people who look- Amazingly lethal when they're hitting the pads and then you put them in there and they get hit in the face once and that's it and you can't forget it. The pads don't hit back, you know what I mean? Like the bag doesn't hit back and so, so anyway, they would hold these tryouts and a couple of the guys had gone, were picked up through the tryouts, but most of them, they had done the tryouts and they had a reference from a competitor on the previous season.

• 1:39:46Speaker 02

  So I was the only guy on that entire cast of that show that got on that didn't do like a tryout thing or something like that. And so, so my reference was just my friend and also like, well, here's my record, I already fought in Pride. And like, it wasn't like I'd fought in Pride and become the world champion because if I wasn't, they wouldn't have put me on the show, but I was like still up and coming. So they put me in there and I, that was, that was a great opportunity because I was like, well, this is like, I was feeling like at the time, this is my last chance, you know? Right. That's how I felt at the time and I-

• 1:40:27Rich Roll?

  And you're, how old are you then?

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  Oh, 27, I just turned 27, yeah. Yeah, so uh-

• 1:40:33Rich Roll?

  This is 2007, right?

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I just went in there and, and, and did, did my job, man.

• 1:40:42Rich Roll?

  So you just went through, you did the whole reality TV thing?

• 1:40:45Speaker 02

  Dude, yeah.

• 1:40:46Rich Roll?

  All the backstabbing and all the drama and all the nonsense, yeah?

• 1:40:51Speaker 02

  It was, it was very strange, it was very strange. It was a strange thing to be involved with because it was like, you were watching people like act in, in the most disingenuine sort of ways or not even, that's not the right word.

• 1:41:08Rich Roll?

  Calculated to provoke or-

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and just- Everybody knew that they were being watched and judged, so there was a certain amount of authenticity was just taken out of the equation right then and there. And I remember we used to all on the show, we would sit around and talk about that in the room sometimes, and we'd just be like, "Man, I bet they're gonna make me look like this and that." And then someone else would be like, "No, I mean, they filmed me doing that, I know they're gonna make me out, and I said that, and I know they're gonna, you know, and they're gonna have me being this guy like that."

• 1:41:46Rich Roll?

  So everybody's trying to figure out how they can get their airtime.

• 1:41:51Speaker 02

  Right, right, and not be portrayed in a way that they didn't want to be portrayed. Yeah, and I remember the producer, she would never say anything. I mean, it was all just like, the reality show is just this environment, and we were being filmed and listened to all the time, but she was like, pulled a meeting one time halfway through, and she was like, "Listen, you guys keep talking about nothing but movies and music, we can't use that, and then the other times, you're just talking about how you think you're gonna be portrayed and edited. Don't worry about that, just be you. We picked you because you're you and all this stuff." And everybody's just like, "Oh." It was so weird, and like, the producers, whenever they would do a thing like that, they would yell at us.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  Like, we were a bunch of high school kids, and they were the principal or something, and I hated that. I was like, "We're all adults." Like, I just, I really...

• 1:42:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but they're like, "We need you to be children."

• 1:42:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:42:48Rich Roll?

  Like, are they trying to provoke you, and like, stoke the fire, and like, create drama where it didn't exist? Or, I mean, look, you got a lot of testosterone, and these guys all want to win, and they know that if they do, you know, there's a lot to be gained from that. So, there had to be a lot of shit talking, and, you know, the Omar Rosa had to, you know, reveal himself to be the guy who's like, the one who's, you know, going around and talking a lot of smack.

• 1:43:13Speaker 02

  I was like, look, like, and I realized, I was like, "These guys are all sort of scared about this whole situation. It's a weird situation. Everybody wants to win, but who really believes in themselves?" And I'm like... I'm just looking at all these guys and I'm like, these guys don't believe in themselves. You can just feel it. You know what I mean? Like, he's just, the competitor in me, it was just like, these guys, they don't have it, you know? You know, when you look at the guy, like, when you stand across from a guy in a fight, even, like, like, and you see him in the ring, and you look in his eyes, and I mean, I'm not talking about,

• 1:43:55Speaker 02

  because I'm not one of those stare-down type of people at all. I couldn't care less about that. But, when you look at somebody, you can tell if they embody belief in themselves or not. And like, these guys just didn't have it, you know? I've stood across from guys that looked right at me, and they weren't trying to stare me down, but they were just like, like, I'm like, oh.

• 1:44:16Rich Roll?

  That guy's dialed in.

• 1:44:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, he knows what he's here for, man, you know what I mean? And then that's the time when you check yourself. Do you start worrying about that? Or do you just, you know, go on your path the way you're supposed to? But, yeah, none of those guys had it, and I just, I was just like, well, I'm taking it, you know? If that's the way it's gonna be, I'm taking it. So that's what I did in that situation.

• 1:44:37Rich Roll?

  So how do you, I mean, you just kind of shut your mouth and train and just focus on the task at hand? And not play games?

• 1:44:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was my thing, and I was surrounded by, half the guys, half the cast on the show was nice guys who started to become very discouraged at the whole situation, and they didn't like the, the sort of, I don't know, I'd call it like, minimum-security-prison atmosphere that was, that the reality show was, and not having access to or from the outside world in any way, and not being able to, you know, get a phone call, or, you know, like, read a book or anything. And, um, and they started to fold because of that mentally. And then the other guys, they were probably folding too, but their way of dealing was just acting like

• 1:45:27Speaker 02

  imbeciles, and just, you know?

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  Being silly and treating it like a frat party. And so I was really annoyed with these people. And so my whole thing was, I'm here to win. I'm here to, you know, to fight and to be a competitor and to win and to take this seriously. And these guys are goofing off and drinking all night and acting dumb. And yeah, the guys were filming them, but like, who cares? Like, I'm here to win. And they took that as, oh, Max is an asshole. Look at him, he's grumpy. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, yo, like, yeah, I'm grumpy because I gotta be around a bunch of idiots. You know what I mean? Like, I'm here, like, I wanna, I wanna get back home.

• 1:46:08Rich Roll?

  It's so funny because it's also the most like cliched thing. Like, I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to win. You hear that on like every reality show.

• 1:46:15Speaker 02

  Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, these guys are, some of these guys are really weird though, man. Like, like, it's in the, they seem-

• 1:46:25Rich Roll?

  Are they still in it now? Are these, are they even around?

• 1:46:28Speaker 02

  Very, very few of them are. Like, the few from my cast that are still around were the guys who actually, a few of the guys who actually were taking it seriously. Like, George Sotiropoulos, he took it seriously and, you know, he's still around. And one, one guy that was a goofball totally and is still around and is still good and he's fighting in Bellator, really matured a lot after that was Ben Saunders. Yeah, he got, he got good and he became a very good martial artist. But yeah, most of those guys who were being goofballs, just, I don't know what they're doing. They're like working the door at a strip club or something for a while now.

• 1:47:13Rich Roll?

  So anyway, man, so you take it, right? So you win this thing?

• 1:47:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:17Rich Roll?

  And so, but before we get into kind of what happened next, walk me through what a typical, like, when you're really focused and you're gearing up hardcore for a fight, like, what is a typical day of training look like for you?

• 1:47:31Speaker 02

  Um, like, well, just, there's, there's all different things that you could be doing throughout the week, but like, maybe on one day might be something like, um-

• 1:47:44Speaker 02

  Drilling takedowns and wrestling, something, something that's like a specific type of thing, like grappling or jujitsu, drilling that for a while, which is just working on the techniques over and over again, practicing takedowns or takedown defense or some sort of grappling thing.

• 1:48:03Rich Roll?

  Right, but you're so, but just like in a sort of day in the life thing, like you get up, like at what time, like what time are you at the gym?

• 1:48:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:11Rich Roll?

  Cause you're going all day, right? Like you're in Vegas.

• 1:48:13Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:15Rich Roll?

  More in recent years, right?

• 1:48:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I was in Vegas for a little while, I was there for a year and a half, but like, I'll just take it like a, like a typical day.

• 1:48:23Rich Roll?

  Just to give an idea, like what somebody at your level like is kind of going through on a daily basis.

• 1:48:28Speaker 02

  Okay, so, okay, well, out here, just as an example, I just pull like a random day out of, out of training from this last camp, it's like, you know, wake up at 7:30, get, get my, maybe like more like seven, make, get my daughter ready for, for school, get her fed, get myself ready, feed myself, drive her to school, drive back, do a half an hour of yoga on my own, stretch, meditate a little bit, drive to train, go, go and do some, some wrestling drilling for like a half an hour, 45 minutes, and then after

• 1:49:12Speaker 02

  that wrestle live for about an hour, and then right after that, go into the room behind there and just do some sprints on the, the concept to the rowing machine or, or the aerodyne, just 30 seconds on as hard as I possibly can, 30 seconds like light and easy, you know, do those, that sort of sprinting interval stuff, and then go home, get something to eat, take a nap, wake up.

• 1:49:44Speaker 02

  Take care of anything I need to take care of with emails or whatever. Drive, go and pick my daughter up from school, bring her back, spend some time with her. And then around seven, take her with me to, uh, to the sparring. And I get into the gym and I set her up with her like coloring books and stuff. And then I go in and I spar. I, I might like warm up for 15 minutes and then like do a few rounds light with somebody. And then I spar like six, five minute rounds with 30 seconds break in between each five minute round. With, um, and a fresh guy coming, coming every single round with me.

• 1:50:28Speaker 02

  And just a hundred percent sparring, kickboxing with takedowns. And then, um, yeah, then that's it. And then go home and, and try to, you know, do everything. Right. Do everything all over again the next day.

• 1:50:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So interesting. So when did you, uh, I mean, has yoga and meditation always been a part of your protocol? Or is that?

• 1:50:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know what I would always do though, was I would always just do it during the training camp. And then, and then after the fight was over, I would.

• 1:50:59Rich Roll?

  Blow it off.

• 1:51:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. That's, that was what, what I always, how I always worked. And, and just recently, um, in the past, uh, past six months, I started working with some, some guys. And, and like a, like a sports psychologist who, who was really, really good with, um, you know, he's not like your typical Freudian analyst type of psychologist guy. He's much more of the eastern philosophies and, and he really got me into meditation. And, and, um, because of, of him and some of the books that he's lent me and, and some of the, the, the path

• 1:51:40Speaker 02

  that I decided to take of finding out more about meditation, then, then that's, that's caused me to, to make it a, a part of my life now. And so now it's like. Even though I might not even do it every single, every single day, like I always, you know, like make sure at least if I've gone like two days without it, that I make it a part of my life. And, and lots of times if, if I wasn't able to find time to meditate, um, for a couple of days in a row even, then I make sure that every day, when I have a, a few seconds, I would just do like five, five breaths of meditation. Like I just got out of the shower, just stop for a second.

• 1:52:23Speaker 02

  I don't need to do anything else, just, you know what I mean? Just, just a little bit. And then those types of things can really help because it's when, it's, it's all about practice, you know, and when you, when you just blow it off and don't do it for weeks and weeks, and then, then it becomes harder to, to get back into the groove. But, um, as far as meditation and yoga on a consistent basis, it's only been in the past six months. On the other time, it's only been, um, something that I had done, uh, during the training camp. And then I would just like afterwards, I'm like, oh, well, that's done and over with. My goodness, I don't, I don't want to do anything that involves trying to better myself. Why would I want to do that?

• 1:53:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, let me just go the other direction for a little while. Indulge yourself. Well, it's just like human behavior, you know what I mean? But what, I mean, have you noticed the difference or the impact that that has?

• 1:53:19Speaker 02

  Man, totally. Um, you know, it's in, it's not like a, a switch that you flip like, oh, well, yeah, I started doing meditation and all of a sudden my life is better and I feel better and everything's great. It's slow, it's a slow building process and learning process, just like anything. But, uh, I've definitely seen a lot of, of huge improvements and, and not just, not just in training and stuff, but, uh, but it carries over into, into my life. Just like how, how everything works, you know, like how I perceive challenges in life are now, it's, it's like, oh man, that really sucks that that happened to me. Instead of wallowing in self pity like I might do before and, and.

• 1:54:04Speaker 02

  Getting like all screwed up with fear and anxiety and what do I do now? Oh, man, what do I do now? It's like I'm dealing with some really scary decisions that I have to make with what I'm doing with my life right now. And I'm just like, hey, like, like, all right, you know, I'm game. You know what I mean? Like, this is gonna be really hard and and and I'm not letting it get to me, whereas I I could fall into a huge hole of depression like I have in the past before.

• 1:54:33Rich Roll?

  Or make decisions based on fear.

• 1:54:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:35Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? It's sort of like, you're not gonna go into a fight unless you're super fit, right? So you're going into these life decisions about what you're gonna do.

• 1:54:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:42Rich Roll?

  For this next chapter.

• 1:54:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:44Rich Roll?

  You wanna be mentally, emotionally, and spiritually fit. So you make the right decision rather than like, oh, I'm scared, so I'm gonna grab onto this thing. Cause that seems that looks like the only opportunity that where I might make money and I better do that. Or I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be homeless or something.

• 1:54:58Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that's that's it. And and now I'm like, I'm a lot more confident. And I and I know that, like, like, listen, it's it's like coming back to the breath. It's like meditating. It's a meditating through life. It's like, no matter what, you can always pull yourself back to center. You know what I mean? All these things are just like thoughts and fears and and and just fabricated ideas about the worst case scenario of what could happen. And and they they'll just spiral off and take you to someplace else. And and the fear of of something bad is usually is it feels a lot worse than the actual bad thing happening.

• 1:55:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. It's just the anticipation. It's like, like, if if, you know, if you, you know, whatever. If you know that that randomly, I don't know, like a hammer is gonna fall down from the sky and and crack you on the head and it's gonna split your head open. If you know that's coming, it's gonna be like, oh, man, when is it coming? You're walking around looking up for it, waiting for it to happen. But then if it just if it happens one time in your life, ah, man, that happened, that fuck, that hurt. But like, you know, yeah, it's it's no big deal. It's like, you know, you get through it. It's just the anticipation, the fear, and we're we're built.

• 1:56:20Speaker 02

  With that to, you know, to, to help us survive, you know, worrying can help you survive in so many instances, but we're such complex beings that we've learned how to take that and let it like snowball and manipulate us into, into like these horrible situations. And so now, not only am I, do I feel better in training, but, but like just in my life in general, like I'm dealing with things a lot better. And like the last fight that I had, it went just about as bad as, as, as it could go. Like worst case, what's a worst case scenario? Yeah. You lose, you lose and like you get knocked out. I mean, the only thing that would have been worse is if it like happened in like 30 seconds or

• 1:57:05Speaker 02

  something like that, which happens to, to many fighters all the time, just because the sport is so unpredictable. But during the course of the fight, I wasn't doing that good, but never once did I get discouraged about it. I never once was I giving in to worry or, or fear or like, uh, in the past, if, if fights weren't, weren't going my way, I would, I would start to beat myself up about it in the fight. You know, I would think, man, like, come on, like, what are you doing? Like,

• 1:57:35Rich Roll?

  Which takes you completely out of the moment of what you're doing.

• 1:57:37Speaker 02

  Exactly. It takes you out of the moment. Yeah. And so you're not present. You're, you're thinking about, oh, I can't like, I'm, I trained so hard. I'm supposed to be doing this and I can't believe like I haven't even landed any punches yet. And like, what's going on? And like, like what's wrong with me? And I wasn't letting any of that bother me. I mean, like I had dealt with some really hard things in the training camp leading up to it. I dealt with hard things in the fight that were bothering me. And as soon as they started bothering me, came back to my breath and just like flowed and like, yeah, I didn't win the fight, but I felt really good in there. And I had a great warm up. I had a great time, like going to the ring. It wasn't like, you know, that can be like the most

• 1:58:20Speaker 02

  anxiety filled moment is when you, your walk out, you know what I mean? When you're walking out and I just, I was there, man. I was there for it and, and it, and it, and it fell apart and it didn't work the way it was supposed to. But it's like, that's the game we play, man. One guy wins and one guy loses. This is, this is the game, you know, and I'm, I'm prepared for that. You know, a lot of people, because the fight, Ended in such like a brutal way or whatever. A lot of people were really worried about me and they were concerned and, "Oh, man, are you all right?" And I really appreciated the concern because it means that someone cares and I appreciate that. But at the same time, I started to get a little annoyed because so many people were like, "Man, I was traumatized

• 1:59:05Speaker 02

  by that." Like, people I don't know and my friends and everybody else are like, "Man, that was hard to watch." And I'm like, "Look, it's a fight. I can handle it. If I couldn't handle it, I wouldn't be there." You know what I mean? Like, it's all right. Like, you guys were taking it worse than I'm taking it. Like, everyone that fights is a fight, you know? Everyone that fights in the UFC knows that that can happen to them, or worse. We've watched way worse stuff happen to people and it's just, that's something that you accept.

• 1:59:42Rich Roll?

  Goes with the territory. Yeah, but to be able to have that reaction to it is, somebody could say, "Wow, you're dealing with it so well or you're so mature," but it's really having mastery over your emotional body or your pain body. And I think that, you know, when you can do that, it's transformative, you know, in so many ways. When you can do that. I mean, I have a friend who says, "Fear is just praying for the worst, you know, possible outcome." And we don't live in the present moment. You know, we constantly walking around worried about what's gonna happen, like sort of, "Oh, when is the other shoe gonna drop?" Or, "When is all my stuff gonna get taken away from me?" Or, "This

• 2:00:24Rich Roll?

  is gonna happen and it's gonna be terrible." Or, living in the past and thinking, "God, I really screwed that up." Or, "I'm such an idiot." Or, you know what I mean? And like, you're never present. And meditation is all about, like, if you can be present, then it's basically a key to the kingdom. You're free from all of that chatter. And none of that chatter serves you. It doesn't serve you in the ring. It doesn't serve you as an athlete. It doesn't serve you as a human being, you know?

• 2:00:50Speaker 02

  And how tragic it must be to go through life being preoccupied. Fully by the past and the in the future and and then not realizing that it was all about being in the present until it's too late.

• 2:01:03Rich Roll?

  Exactly. And and by the way, like whatever you're thinking about what happened in the past probably isn't what happened and probably isn't what other people are thinking about what happened. And all your preoccupation with what's going to happen, ninety nine point nine nine nine nine percent of all of that doesn't happen either. So think about how much energy is wasted.

• 2:01:21Speaker 02

  It's it's crazy. It's crazy. It really is. And and like, like I said, I mean, I by no means have I mastered this or anything. You know what I mean?

• 2:01:32Rich Roll?

  But you're having an experience with it. You're you're seeing a benefit.

• 2:01:35Speaker 02

  The the biggest thing is is that like I still get preoccupied with with with the future and with the past. And I still worry and all that stuff. It's not like all of a sudden, yeah, Max, he he's good to go. He's enlightened. He's.

• 2:01:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:49Speaker 02

  You know, he's like Ram Dass now or whatever. He just, you know, walks around and is just like in the moment one hundred percent of the time.

• 2:01:56Rich Roll?

  Practice, man, your whole life, you know?

• 2:01:58Speaker 02

  Well, the thing that it is now is I recognize it. I mean, I would spend weeks. And that was what depression was. I would spend weeks just being like, oh, no, oh, man, I'm worried. And I'm not feeling good and I don't know what it is. And I would sit there and my mind would go spiral, spiral downward about all this these scenarios. And what happened in the past and people's perceptions of me and and like, you know, what am I going to do in the future? And now I I mean, I still have these these issues and these thought patterns, but I recognize them. And I say, ah, I I see that. I see where that's going. I don't need that.

• 2:02:43Speaker 02

  And and I just I pull myself back to the present and and it doesn't always, I don't always recognize it right away. But I am recognizing it now, whereas before I was just oblivious. I was just like, well, I'm thinking and that's what Mac does because he's a thinker.

• 2:02:59Rich Roll?

  What it is, is what it is, is you just, I've talked about this before on the podcast, but when you have that moment and you recognize like, oh, hey, I'm doing this, right then and there, you're creating, you're basically drawing a distinction between your thinking mind, which is not always your friend and generally is attacking you and sending you messages that are not in your best interest, and your higher consciousness that is sort of-

• 2:03:22Speaker 02

  Your observative mind.

• 2:03:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's up above you looking down going, hey, Mac, your thinking mind is doing that thing again. Let's like reel it in. And that's your, that's sort of your higher consciousness checking you. You know what I mean? And when you're not, when you don't, you know, when you haven't had that training to kind of understand that distinction, you just think it's all one, like, well, I'm, you know, and it's, you're just, well, I'm me and this is how I think and this is who I am and it's all one thing. And being able to say, no, it's not that. Actually, your brain's like a muscle. When it starts doing that thing that it does, you can tell it to stop doing that.

• 2:03:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and the hardest thing, well, not, not the hardest, but it can be difficult. And one of the most difficult things is, is to do that without harshly judging yourself. And that's, that's the thing that I've, that I've found really hard in the beginning and I'm, I'm trying to do it better. And now it's like, the past is the past. And so if you can, like, let's say you're doing something and you're becoming very reactionary, you're getting mad at somebody, you're getting mad at your kid or something, you're yelling at your kid and you say, and then all of a sudden you observe this situation and you say, I don't need to have this negativity. I don't need to, to be like, to be yelling right now. I don't even need to be raising my voice

• 2:04:40Speaker 02

  or being inflammatory in any way. And, and instead of just recognizing it and stopping, recognizing it and being like, hey, it's okay. Don't, don't beat yourself up about it either. You did it. It's in the past. You can shut it off right now and it's okay. And just come, come back to center, you know, every single time, like that sort of thing. It's, it's, it's important. And that's how they get in meditation, you know, like if you sit there and you dedicate a half an hour, an hour to, to meditating and, you know, halfway through, you're thinking about bills to pay and you're thinking about, oh yeah, what am I going to do about tomorrow? And that's, that stuff is normal. The whole thing is, you don't wanna just be like,

• 2:05:23Rich Roll?

  Ah, fuck, I can't manage it. I blew it. I can't do this. It's like, oh, that's interesting. I'm thinking of that. Like, okay, let's bring it back to center.

• 2:05:30Speaker 02

  It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. Yeah, it's the, the mind is gonna wander. You're gonna worry. You're gonna have these thoughts. The, the practice is catching it. And like, I think that's what the masters do, is they, they catch it as soon as, as it happens. They catch it quicker than, than other people. I don't think it's, there's any difference other than that they recognize it and catch it sooner. And, and, and gently pull it back.

• 2:05:56Rich Roll?

  You know, just like the wrestler who started when he was 11, they have, they have muscle memory. They've been, they've been practicing longer. You know what I mean? They're a master of that because they put the work in.

• 2:06:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:06Rich Roll?

  You know, we're all human beings. We're all human beings. You're not gonna transcend the human condition. But maybe you can make it a little bit more palatable. So, yeah, that's interesting. Um, but we get, we're still like in your chronology, dude. We gotta go back. We're coming up on, we're coming up on two hours and we haven't even talked about like the vegan thing. We're gonna have to get into that because people are gonna be pissed.

• 2:06:30Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 2:06:32Rich Roll?

  But I wanna get through, so, so you win the Ultimate Fighter? I mean, did that like, how did that, did that change everything overnight?

• 2:06:40Speaker 02

  I mean, in a way it did. I mean, I went from just being this guy who was just trying to make it to like, you know, that was like, and, and for whatever it's worth, that was the height of my popularity among, among fans and stuff. I remember like after I won that show, just being a, like a guest fighter at the, one of the UFC's at the Mandalay Bay and just, like being mobbed by people, like not even be able to go anywhere, just, you know, and, and like, I don't know. I didn't really care for that, that side of it too much because it was, just seemed so. Like it wasn't very authentic, you know what I mean? These people that like didn't even really and you couldn't even tell if they really liked you

• 2:07:24Speaker 02

  or knew you or knew they just you were that guy. You were the guy that fought and like you're him and they want a picture and an autograph. So that sort of thing happened, which was a strange phenomenon, which I found strange. And then, you know, it was my little 15 minutes of having like a thimble full of what, you know, a real celebrity has like a gallon of every day, you know, like this, this, all this attention, negative and positive and just, you know, fake, just sort of thrown at you all the time. And it was, it was odd and then, but at the same time, it felt really good though. I mean, it was, it was like I'm, I've finally made it.

• 2:08:09Rich Roll?

  It's really symbolic of like, you know, hey, it wasn't that long ago that you were, you know, back working at the animal shelter and.

• 2:08:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I mean, it was even, even a shorter amount of time that I was just, you know, like barely getting by working security wherever I could and trying and fighting for 200 bucks and, and now I'm, I'm going to be able to make a living doing this. Now, now I'm gonna, gonna be able to, to take this as far as, as I can take it. And, and that was a great feeling is just having the resources now and, and the opportunities and the resources to just take it as far as I could take it. And so that's when I decided to move to Vegas and you know what I mean? That's when I decided to, to try to take what I thought at the time was the best training

• 2:08:56Speaker 02

  situation I could come up with and, and, and just, you know, go with it a hundred percent. And yeah, I mean, it's, there's a lot of ups and downs, you know, and, and there's, you know, there's, there's a lot of. A lot of hardships and a lot of pressure that I put upon myself, I think. I think I put too much pressure on myself and, but I mean, that's part of the learning process. That had to happen. I don't regret it. I don't, you know what I mean? Like, I don't regret like anything that's happened in the past. I used to have a lot of regrets, but I'm just like, that's, that's, that's part of, that's part of the story. That's, that's the way it went

• 2:09:37Speaker 02

  down. That's the way, you know, it was conscrated. That's, it's supposed to be that way. So.

• 2:09:43Rich Roll?

  Well, I think, you know, a big kind of sort of part of your journey and I think what, you know, what I'm drawn to in your story is this priority and of always maintaining your authenticity, you know, and that's, that's like a big part of my story and it's kind of like what my book is about. And it's definitely a theme of this podcast too, is trying to sort of help people become more authentic versions of who they are. And, you know, I've heard you, you know, kind of speak to that a little bit today. I heard you talk about it on Joe's podcast and, and, you know, you seem to have a very strong sense of who you are. So you have this true north that's kind of always guided you and helped you make,

• 2:10:28Rich Roll?

  you know, the right decision for yourself. Maybe it wasn't the best business decision, or maybe somebody at USC said, hey, you want to be big, go do this. It didn't feel right to you. And, you know, I heard you talking about performance enhancing drugs like on Joe's show and kind of how that, you know, kind of was sort of in the orbit of, you know, how you had to like navigate through kind of seeing that in your environment and all that kind of thing and, and coming out like intact. So you can look at yourself in the mirror.

• 2:10:55Speaker 02

  Exactly. At the end of the day, like I can always know that no matter what, that was me out there. You know what I mean? I don't want to be the guy that was like, like, yeah, I won this fight, you know, I did it really well, or I, I won this championship, you know, but I won it when I was on this stuff, you know? I mean, like, whatever. Like, if I, if I didn't have any principles or anything, you know, I could do that stuff too, like a lot of these guys are doing and I, you know, I'm. Do it right or whatever, could get away with it. But then it's like, not only all the health implications and everything, but like, what kind of example are you setting for yourself? You know, what do you want to, do you want to look back on this, that this was you doing

• 2:11:40Speaker 02

  everything that you could as an artist to pull this off as best you can? Or do you want to look at it as, oh yeah, well, you know, if it's really not a big deal, guys, don't take it. You know what I mean? Like, a lot of these people that take it, they are very nonchalant about it. And they're just like, well, you know, like, it's not that big of a deal. Like, well, then, hey, why are you taking? You know, and they might throw something at you. Well, you recover better. And I just want to, you know, recover and get my injuries and yada, yada. It's like, yo, man, like, that's a cop out. You know, you know.

• 2:12:16Rich Roll?

  You know, how prevalent is it in the sport?

• 2:12:19Speaker 02

  Look, like, here's the thing.

• 2:12:21Rich Roll?

  I don't want to get you in trouble.

• 2:12:23Speaker 02

  No, no, you won't get me in trouble because I'm not going to name any names. But I'm just going to make a blanket statement that like, if I gave an estimate of 80 to 90%, that would be fairly accurate. You know what I mean? And that means 80 to 90% of people doing something. And that does, and then you've got some guys that run every single thing you could possibly imagine, and you've got other guys that like, have these half principles. And they're like, oh, well, I'll only do HGH because they don't test for that in MMA right now. And, um, you know, it's not really a steroid, right? Um, and I'll recover better. And, you know, whatever, you've got everybody doing what they do.

• 2:13:07Speaker 02

  And you've got all sorts of ways that people justify it. But I don't have like access to like what everybody does. And guys don't just walk around talking about it all the time. Sometimes they do, which is kind of funny, but you know, you don't know for sure. But I've watched guys that would like swear on their mother's deathbed that they have never done it before in their lives. And then you go into the refrigerator to get some water and there's these like pictures of horses and these sterile water and there's all this stuff. And it's like, oh, okay, well. All right, and, and there's just this like denial about it. I don't know like what that

• 2:13:50Speaker 02

  comes from, but um because of that, it's so hard to say because you know, people's careers are at stake and so they're not, they're not gonna be like, hey, I do it, you know what I mean, but uh.

• 2:14:01Rich Roll?

  How often is that, I mean, what is the testing protocol? I mean, is it?

• 2:14:06Speaker 02

  Well, right now.

• 2:14:06Rich Roll?

  Random drug tests, whenever? I mean, is it under the jurisdiction?

• 2:14:10Speaker 02

  Every now and then, they, they'll, they'll do a random drug test, but for the most part, it's just, uh, well, okay, they do random drug tests every single event. The main event for every, every fight is drug test, uh, all the time, if it's, if it's a sanctioned event. And then, um, the other guys on the card, they pick like eight people or 10 people at random. And then they, they, they pull them and then like, they don't, they didn't know they were gonna get tested. And it's just a urine test and they, they have you go before and right after the fight.

• 2:14:50Speaker 02

  And then, um, that, that's, that's basically it. And they don't do it like, uh, whatever, six months before your fight or anything like that.

• 2:14:58Rich Roll?

  Like when you're actually training and you'd be benefiting from using these things.

• 2:15:01Speaker 02

  Right. And so like, like that's why some organizations like VADA are cool because they're, they're like, you know, giving these athletes a chance to voluntarily, you know, say like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have these people come and they're gonna come at random times throughout the year and they're just gonna take my blood and it's, you know, it's gonna be like that type of thing. The only thing about VADA is right now, they just don't have the resources to do that. So it's up to a fighter who has a sponsor that's willing to help, you know, pay for, for that and to voluntarily do it. And I wanted to do it, but I don't have any sponsors that are willing to pay for it. So it's like, and, and.

• 2:15:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's expensive. It's really expensive.

• 2:15:44Speaker 02

  They're sort of like, oh, well, everybody knows that you're clean. It's like, well, I would actually like to prove it, but you know, whatever. At the end of the day, it really only, it, it only matters to me. And, and I don't really get upset. Like a lot of guys, there are some guys who don't do it and they get really upset that other people are taking it. And I don't mind, um, that much. To me, that's on them because. Everything we do in life, we have to pay for it at some point. You know what I mean? Like, there's karma in everything. And there's, there's serious health implications to doing this stuff.

• 2:16:25Speaker 02

  If it wasn't bad enough, we're hitting each other in the head and making our brains roll around in our head. Why would you, why would you like replace the testosterone in your body with synthetic testosterone and teach it to not be able to produce its own and raise estrogen levels and just do all this weird stuff to your thyroid? Why would you do that? You know? So if somebody wants to do it, it's on them. And I don't really feel like upset. You know what I mean? If somebody is on it and they beat me-

• 2:16:59Rich Roll?

  You must be meditating a lot.

• 2:17:03Speaker 02

  I really, I don't know, man. It's, that's on them. You know what I mean? I just, I, fighting is a very selfish thing. And I'm doing this for, for, for me for a lot of reasons. And, and I can't, I can't, I'm not gonna lose any sleep at night knowing how I won or lost any fight, you know?

• 2:17:24Rich Roll?

  Right. Interesting, man. Well, it's heavy. I mean, even to have that perspective, well, I don't know. I don't want to get too, I mean, you know, that's enough of that. You know what I mean?

• 2:17:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:34Rich Roll?

  It is, it is what it is. Hopefully it'll clean up. I mean, in cycling, you see, you know, now they have, you heard of the passport? Like the blood passport, things like that. I mean, it's not like the UFC is lacking in resources. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's more of a political decision or a business decision on their part, the same as it is in the NFL or, you know, where it's like, do they want a scandal? Do they want to open up this door? Like, you know, there's like a can of worms that has to come out first before you can clean it up. Does anybody want it cleaned? You know?

• 2:18:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:04Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 2:18:04Speaker 02

  I mean, I think, I think the UFC has, they've continued to do the right thing when they've had these choices and stuff. And I think if they're able to, to get themselves in a situation where they have-

• 2:18:21Speaker 02

  As much at power as the athletic commissions, then they may, then they may start to, to, to implement their own, like, like, right now, it's just a strange situation because the UFC, who is such a, a powerful organization, still has to answer to, to the athletic commissions, and that's how they keep the fight sanctioned and everything. And these commissions aren't really willing to, to, you know, go the extra mile. So if, it's, it's all about them cooperating with each other. And yeah, we'll, we'll see what happens. But, you know, like, like, in, in, in my career time, you know, probably, probably nothing is going to drastically change.

• 2:18:59Rich Roll?

  Well, usually what happens is there's a scandal, and then they have to change. You know what I mean? Like, something will happen, somebody will get busted for whatever, and then they'll kind of have to deal with it in a way that they haven't had to.

• 2:19:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 2:19:11Rich Roll?

  So, anyway, all right, man. Look, two hours and 10 minutes. We didn't even talk about, like, V, you know what I mean? Which is fine with me. You know what I mean? It's like, hey, man, I don't have to, you know, like, talk about that all the time.

• 2:19:26Speaker 02

  You and I are two people who have been, like, for better or for worse, defined by that. You know what I mean?

• 2:19:33Rich Roll?

  So, this is our, this is our, our sort of quiet protest against that on some level.

• 2:19:38Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:19:39Rich Roll?

  More, I can, I have other things I can talk about.

• 2:19:42Speaker 02

  Exactly. I know, I know. It's, it's, it's like, on one hand, it's, it's a double edged sword. It's like, it's really, really good on one hand. It's great for so many reasons. But on the other hand, it's like, like, is that all you, do you guys just see a vegan? Would you look at me? Come on, I'm more than that. But, uh,

• 2:19:59Rich Roll?

  It's interesting. Yeah. And I, I struggle with that. I know you do. You know, you, you have like, you sort of wear the mantle, but you're also uncomfortable with it. And you're not always like, I'll talk about it, but not like, I don't really want to talk about it that much. But like, everyone wants, then you'll show up on a PETA poster, but then you're like, well, I don't want to do that, you know?

• 2:20:18Speaker 02

  It's it's hard. I'm conflicted with with with these sort of things because because I don't like to to like label myself, you know what I mean?

• 2:20:28Rich Roll?

  Well, as soon as you do that, then you're in it. You're in a camp and that's who you are. And that's your identity.

• 2:20:32Speaker 02

  I don't I want to what the only label I have is the name my mom gave me when I was born as Mac. Like, I don't really like, you know, people always want to, you know, whatever discussion, if it's a philosophical discussion, oh, so you're agnostic, or no, wait, you're atheist. It's like, I'm neither. I'm none. Like, I don't need to to have a word that defines me.

• 2:20:54Rich Roll?

  But other people do.

• 2:20:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:20:56Rich Roll?

  Well, you know, as human beings, we want to categorize.

• 2:20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:59Rich Roll?

  Like, okay, I need to, I look at you, all right, which box do I have to check to figure out who you are? And at the same time, you know, I've talked about this before also, like, you know, people love to be, you know, they want to like, what team are you on? Like, are you a cheese head? You know, are you with the Packers? Or are you, you know, are you with the Patriots? You know, like, who are you voting for? Who is your, who are you getting behind? And like, I'm on this team, you know, I'm on the vegan team. And, you know, and guess what? Mac's on my team, too. You know what I mean? So I have a good team.

• 2:21:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:21:32Rich Roll?

  And then you go out in the world and and you say X, Y, and Z to some reporter, and they're like, rah rah rah, see, Mac's on our team. And then and then the next day, you say something else, and they're like, that's not what I want him to say.

• 2:21:45Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:21:45Rich Roll?

  And then suddenly, they're like, hey, I thought you were on our team.

• 2:21:49Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, man, it's it's crazy. You just summed it up perfectly. I mean, and that's that's why it's just so weird to watch the way that that people react to these sorts of things. And everything is based on that mentality that you just explained. It's why we have this two-party system. And then, you know, with within politics, and it's like, you need to pick one side or the other, and it's got to be this way, or it's got to be that way. And it's like, look, like, I use the word vegan because it's it's a quick word that can explain. I mean, like, do you want me to spend 15 minutes explaining?

• 2:22:26Rich Roll?

  The nuances?

• 2:22:27Speaker 02

  Okay, look, like, yes, I don't buy things that are made of leather. I don't, you know, I don't eat this. I don't eat that. You know, like, like, do I do I need to go through all that? So no, I'm like, yeah, I have a vegan diet as a consumer. Everything is, my lifestyle is vegan, but like, And it's so weird too, because if I denounce that, if I'm like, "Look, like, I don't wanna be labeled that," then I offend this entire subculture of people, more than half of whom are actually really cool, awesome, courageous people who wanna make a positive change in the world, you know? And then like, maybe the other half or less are like, you know, scenesters that are just jumping on some bandwagon

• 2:23:12Speaker 02

  because they're kind of into it and they wanna be a part of something. But there's a lot of really cool, authentic people that are involved that I just don't like. Like, yeah, boxing myself and classifying myself. And I don't like to constantly feel like I need to classify other people, you know? And I feel like it's a great subculture in a lot of ways and there's a lot of connections that can be made. But the biggest problem is when you commit to saying like, "I'm this way" and "everybody else needs to change and do this," or "I don't wanna have anything to do with them," then when you do that, when you pick that side

• 2:23:54Speaker 02

  and then everyone that you associate with has to be a part of this, you know, like, label and everything, then you polarize the situation and you make it so that, like, other people have to react defensively. And people are taught to act defensively anyway, as it is, you know? I mean, even if you're the kindest, most compassionate, open-minded, gentle person on earth, if you are, you know, trying to explain to people that you only eat vegetables, they get mad at you, you know? Not everybody, but like, a lot of people do, you know?

• 2:24:38Speaker 02

  It's really weird. There's a certain level of insecurity. And man, if you turn this thing into a religion, well, then you can forget it, you know what I mean? I mean, like, the last thing I want is people knocking on my door telling me like, that I need to join their church. So when you go on a crusade like that, no matter what the thing is that you're trying to promote...

• 2:25:04Speaker 02

  You're gonna run that risk, you know what I mean? And a lot of them have that attitude. Well, it's, you know, it doesn't matter then if they don't wanna be a part of it, that's fine. It's like, I think that everybody should have the opportunity to be able to wake up to what's going on in the world today and why someone might want to make responsible choices as a consumer, you know what I mean? I think that everybody deserves that opportunity. And they need to know the truth without having it forced down their throat or without being...

• 2:25:44Speaker 02

  Like, nobody, like, even the most religious, religious people that I know, like, if they were, like, super pushy about it, I wouldn't be friends with them, you know what I mean? So, why would you do that about anything else? You know, that's my whole stance. And I don't wanna push anything on anybody. It's up to them if they want to see what's going on. I would rather lead by example, you know what I mean? And that doesn't mean I completely denounce, like, the scene or the subculture. Like I said, I've met so many cool people that have been involved with it.

• 2:26:22Speaker 02

  And I'm like, I'm so happy to be a part of a movement that includes a lot of, like, open-minded people that actually care, that actually give a shit, you know? And so, like, it's hard, it's, there's two sides to it. But I just do not, like, constantly, like, classifying myself in that sort of way. It's just not, it's not fair. It's like demeaning to the individual to label yourself and be like, "I'm a Democrat," or "I'm a Republican," or "I'm a," you know? Whatever, like, you know, like I'm a Scientologist or, you know, who knows?

• 2:27:05Speaker 02

  Like, so, so being a part of, of, of those sorts of things can, to me, it's, it's, it's more polarizing than, than, and you're not recruiting that many people, you know what I mean? And, and, and if you want to open more people's minds, you have to do it in a nurturing way. You can't force things down people's throats. They're defensive enough as I said.

• 2:27:30Rich Roll?

  Right. No, there's no question about that. I mean, and so, so balancing that against, I mean, look, the truth is, is that, is that, you know, your lifestyle, your way of eating is interesting and different, you know, particularly in your, you know, in the subculture of the UFC and the MMA. It's like, it's the kind of thing, Bodhi just came down, our dog, he's gonna say hi. You know, it's something that, that, that, you know, draws attention to yourself and people want to know about it, you know what I mean? So you get, you must get, you get asked about it all the time.

• 2:28:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:28:04Rich Roll?

  And, and so there's the opportunity to like, hey, this is what I believe in, like, let's talk about what I believe in, but how, but delivering that in a way that is not like, hey, I'm up on the, the pulpit talking down to you. Or you're just, I mean, for me, I think, as long as I, as I root everything in my own experience, like, hey, I'm just sharing, this is what, this is what I've experienced personally. And, and I don't make like, you know, generalizations or platitudes about it. Then, then, you know, I'm, I'm okay with it. But yeah, it does, it gets, it gets really tricky and emotions run high, man. You know what I mean?

• 2:28:44Rich Roll?

  It's like, it can be intense and I remember, you know, I, you know, just kind of going back to the whole Joe Rogan thing, like, I was nervous to go on that show. You know, because it was sort of on the heels of Rob Wolf being on and talking about paleo. And it's like, I know that I'm there because he wants to ask me about being vegan. That's really the only reason I'm there and I'm glad to be there and he was super cool.

• 2:29:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:08Rich Roll?

  But I better like acquit myself well, or like the whole death squad army is gonna turn on me, you know, it could be like a really negative experience, you know? And it ended up being great and it was fun and awesome and Joe couldn't have been cooler. But it's a very, you know, it can be like an intense thing, you know? And it's like, We're just talking about our food choice.

• 2:29:28Speaker 02

  Right, right, right, exactly. You were, you were very diplomatic, by the way.

• 2:29:35Rich Roll?

  He put the screws at me a couple of times and then I listen to it now and I was like, oh, I should have said that.

• 2:29:39Speaker 02

  Well, you know, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I feel like that about so many different things, but, but yeah, I mean, there's, I, I feel like, I feel like Joe has, has like so, some ideas that, and I feel like he's, he's one of the people who is annoyed by the, like, the, the vegan crusade team subculture. You know what I mean? And a lot of people are, and it's, it's unfortunate because these people, meanwhile, they're just, they're so passionate about, like, the way they feel about things that they just, they can't help being religious about it.

• 2:30:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the way that I always sort of, for a long time, I was kind of baffled by that because I don't really kind of, I don't have that perspective. And I was like, what are you doing? You're just turning people off. But then I thought about it more and the more I think about it, the more I kind of sympathize and understand it, which is, I think that people, there are certain people that come into the world hypersensitive, you know? And they're just wired in a certain way where, you know, they see animal cruelty and they can't tolerate it. They just physically, emotionally, spiritually can't tolerate it.

• 2:30:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:51Rich Roll?

  They're hyper, hypersensitive to it. And so they, and what, what happens is they can't understand why everyone doesn't have that kind of emotional reaction to it that they have.

• 2:31:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:31:02Rich Roll?

  And so they start to say like, hey, look, don't you see? Like, and then people are like, don't want to hear about it.

• 2:31:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31:08Rich Roll?

  And then they get progressively more frustrated over the years and then, and then that frustration turns into anger.

• 2:31:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:31:14Rich Roll?

  And then before they know it, they're shouting and, you know, all this kind of thing happens. You can see the evolution of it.

• 2:31:21Rich Roll?

  Because it's just like, it's frustration that other people don't see the world that, the way that they do. And that is not something that is, you know.

• 2:31:32Rich Roll?

  That only occurs in that world. It occurs in any movement where people are passionate and have a different perspective on things than maybe the mainstream does.

• 2:31:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, that's so well put. That's absolutely right. And yeah, you see it in so many other things. And now, like, just take, for example, you know, what's going on in corporation and government. And then you've got a lot of people that, that, you know, like even people like that I know that I follow on Twitter and stuff. It's like they're really, really into exposing all these things. I guess we should, should we hold on to the siren?

• 2:32:09Rich Roll?

  Siren.

• 2:32:12Speaker 02

  All right. But they're into exposing the truth and then they get caught up in it so much that they're so, at the end of the day, they're screaming and they're so easily written off now as conspiracy theorists, as, as, you know, some conspiracy theorist nut who believes in this and that. And oh yeah, everybody's trying to control you. Sure, the government's doing this and that. And the fact of the matter is, these things are happening, but, but, you know, when no one listens and you're going about it that way, it's so easy to get, to get angry and so easy to get frustrated.

• 2:32:54Speaker 02

  And it's so easy to start calling out like, hey, why don't you people wake up? Don't you see what's going on? And not everybody has it. Like ignorance is bliss and a lot of people are admittedly just happy in their blissful ignorance and they don't want to know. You know what I mean? And they don't, and they don't, I mean, I've even had people like with the vegan thing, like good people say, like that I've known for a while, say, like, bro, I can't watch those videos. And I'm like, yeah, I don't really watch them either. I've seen them. I know what they are. I don't need to watch them. I don't need to put myself through that.

• 2:33:29Rich Roll?

  Videos like earthlings or, you know, animal cruelty videos?

• 2:33:33Speaker 02

  The animal cruelty videos. And they'll say something like, like, I can't watch those videos because then it'll make me feel like, like I shouldn't eat, you know, eat meat and stuff. And I feel like I've got to. And I'm like, okay, well, whatever, dude.

• 2:33:49Rich Roll?

  Well, it's the matrix. You know what I mean? It's sort of like you're gonna take the red pill or you want to be like, you know, Joey Pants and say, you know, I, I, I was happier when I was in the matrix. Let me be a, I want to be a movie star and have a nice house and I don't want to think about this stuff anymore.

• 2:34:04Speaker 02

  I'll tell you what, man. I mean, the, the, the decision for me, w- once I realized that it was feasible and it wasn't going to hinder me in any way, it was so easy. I mean, once I realized like it's, it's so, it's so incredibly easy and so many people have that reaction. Oh, I could never do that. And I, I, I can't imagine doing that. And the, the only reason, that's just, it's all in your head. I mean, you know, like, like the idea that, that you can't do something or the, you know, that, that that would be hard. It's like, it's, it's not hard.

• 2:34:38Rich Roll?

  Well, I think when people say they can't, they're just, they're saying, they're really saying like, I don't want to.

• 2:34:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:34:47Rich Roll?

  But you've been doing it. I mean, you've been doing this for a long time.

• 2:34:50Speaker 02

  Two thousand four. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:34:52Rich Roll?

  And it's, and it continues to evolve, right? Like when we talked the other day, you're like, I'm on the, I'm doing the eighty, ten, ten thing.

• 2:34:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:00Rich Roll?

  And that's like a really hot thing right now. Um, essentially eighty percent of your calories are carbs.

• 2:35:07Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:35:07Rich Roll?

  Ten percent from protein, ten percent from fat. It all stems from this book by Douglas Graham.

• 2:35:13Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:35:14Rich Roll?

  And if you've listened to this show, you, you heard my interview with Michael Ernsting, the runner, ultra runner, who calls himself the fruitarian.

• 2:35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:35:24Rich Roll?

  And he jams on it and he's like, dude, you know, like I'm telling you, like I never would have expected it, but I feel amazing. His, his marathon time, like, you know, just dropped through this, you know, floor when he started doing it and he's, and so it's funny because that book was written a long time ago, but now it seems to be having this little bit of a moment, right? Now where a lot of people are, are trying this and checking it out and, and it, and you know, it's something that I haven't explored and don't know that much about, but I have some friends that are doing it who are experiencing great results with it. And I'm certainly not one to judge anybody's diet, you know? And, uh, and you started just playing around with this recently, right?

• 2:36:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, you know, man, it was, it's all from, uh, Like, I was, I was motivated to do it by, by that dude Harley.

• 2:36:14Rich Roll?

  Harley Durian Rider.

• 2:36:16Speaker 02

  You know.

• 2:36:18Rich Roll?

  Talk about outspoken, he's an outspoken guy.

• 2:36:21Speaker 02

  I admire him, I mean, you know, I admire, he's got, what's that called, like chutzpah or something?

• 2:36:27Rich Roll?

  Very much so, yeah.

• 2:36:29Speaker 02

  He's got that, so, so basically, I've, I've always been one of the, the people that still, you know, I've, I've always explained to people that the protein requirements that we've been led to believe that we need are blown out of proportion and all that, and when anybody asks me, well, where do you get your protein, you know, you get protein from here, do you get protein from there, I'm always like, instead of taking the route that a lot of people who are vegan or, or plant-based athletes will take, well, they, they will start explaining, well, this has this much protein in it, and this has this much protein, and you can get it from here, and you can get it from here, and they start naming all these sources, I, instead

• 2:37:13Speaker 02

  of like going on about that, I'm always just like, look, you don't need as much as they think, as, as we're led to believe that we need, like, the body needs protein, yes, it needs protein, it does not need, nor can it absorb the amount of protein that these people are telling you to put into your body, but I would still, you know, I'm always like, like, the, the fats thing, I'm like, okay, like, you know, we need the good fats, we need like a, a better ratio of omega threes to sixes, which is very true, but, but like, you know, I was always putting these healthy fats into me, and I've been doing this for

• 2:37:55Speaker 02

  years, and I find it really easy for me to like, to binge on foods, you know, whether they're healthy or not, I've always found it easy to, to like fall into that sort of thing, eating large quantities of foods and eating lots of calories, and I don't know where that stems from, you know, I grew up like where there's, you know, more times than I can count. Situations where I did not have enough to eat and you know where you know I wouldn't say we were like starving but like a couple of times we were starving and we just didn't have enough money for food and then once I got you know like older and I became an adult and I had the resources to to buy good food I mean I'm all about it and so

• 2:38:40Speaker 02

  like there's a million ways to do the vegan diet and just because someone's vegan doesn't mean they're healthy and I mean I've done every single possible way of of eating the vegan diet you know lots of times just emotionally eating and sometimes eating for health and and for you know for this and for that but I've always been like trying to balance out these good fats and the protein and the carbs and all this stuff but I've really like come to realize that um that that when I when I decided to try this eighty ten ten thing I guess I should I point out for the people who don't know there's a couple of

• 2:39:20Speaker 02

  different ways you can go about doing it um eighty percent of the the calories that you consume in a day coming from carbohydrates that can come from there's there's a there's the McDougal camp who subscribe to the starch theory so then they're like okay we'll just eat your rice eat your potatoes yeah eat all this this stuff and and and um then the other side is more of the uh eat the fresh fruit and have have almost all of those carbs or all of them coming from raw fresh fruit and that's the the that's what I'm subscribing to and I've only been doing this for about three and a half months now I started about

• 2:40:02Speaker 02

  a month before my fight this last fight and when I did I was I was I count calories when I'm trying to get ready for a fight and cut weight. And I was struggling, you know, I was doing like the, the thing that I normally do lots of good fats and like trying to do greens and trying to keep my calories low and like foods that are high in fat are, are, you know, really calorically dense and they don't really always, if you're counting calories, they don't really always fill you up, you know, if you're trying to keep it like under 2,000 or something like that.

• 2:40:38Rich Roll?

  A spoonful of coconut oil and you know, it's not gonna make you full.

• 2:40:42Speaker 02

  You're done for the day.

• 2:40:43Rich Roll?

  That's your whole day.

• 2:40:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly, yeah. So, so, um, I, and I, and, and I was struggling with energy and everything and I always have gone through this and I've always just written it off to, well, I'm in the weight cutting phase now and this is just the way it is and you gotta suffer and you gotta deal with this. And then I, I started watching his stuff and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna try this. Tried it for a couple of days, immediately felt better and then I was like, you know what? Eh, this is just my body's like immediate reaction to a change and it feels good, but it'll probably, I'll probably start to like feel pretty crappy in a couple of weeks.

• 2:41:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:41:22Speaker 02

  Have felt, it's been three and a half months, I've felt nothing but good eh, the entire time and um, I eat as, and, and the, the great thing about it is after the fight, like uh, what, what I would always do after the fight is, you know, if you restricted your calories to try to make weight, so then you end up binging and then I would always like, you know, would say to myself, well, I'll indulge in some junk food because, you know, I deserve it because I've been working so hard and then the next thing I know, I'm 187 pounds and I'm like, dude, like come on, what is, what is up with that, what is wrong with you? And I get, you know, like depressed and mad at myself and a lot of fighters go through that fluctuation because they're always roller coaster dieting.

• 2:42:04Speaker 02

  So, I decided to stay on a diet, but go ahead and do like they say, you can binge eat a little bit, just eat fruit and I've been doing that and I am 20 pounds less. Consistently waking up at like 165 where I'd normally at this time be like 185. I'm not dealing with inflammation at all anymore and I'm eating until I'm full and I'm satisfied. And I feel good and I've got energy and stuff, you know what I mean? And like a lot of the things like that, that those guys say, like the people that are outspoken about this diet will be like, well, hey, you know, like these

• 2:42:45Speaker 02

  high protein, high fat guys, they're always on the coffee and the reason why they are is because they've got no energy because they've they're not eating enough carbs and they've they're eating all this fat and this protein. And like they call these people out on it. I'm not about to do that, but I'll mention the fact that I think I agree with that, like, like these, you know, they the fruitarian and 80 10 10 people are very opposed to the paleo diet, which is the exact opposite in so many.

• 2:43:12Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, right now, kind of the stage is being held by this very low carb, you know, kind of craze and you know.

• 2:43:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And see, like, here's the thing. I've come to realize too, by reading up enough about this and from my own experiences recently, that, that, um, the, the

• 2:43:33Speaker 02

  carbs can be bad if you are mixing them with lots of fats. You know what I mean? That's when you get that glycemic load and that's when you get the sugar crashes and all those feelings because you're, you're, you're mixing it with the fats. But if you keep your fat levels low and you, and you don't need that much protein, I mean, I feel great. I've, I haven't lost any strength. I can still lift as much as I normally would. I haven't lost any muscle. And I'm waking up the same way that I was waking up the week before the weigh in. And I'm satisfied. I've got energy and I'm feeling good and I'm feeling strong and I can still, you know, like easily, you know, whatever, do 20 pull ups, like, is, you know, like, and the only reason, I hate even like mentioning it.

• 2:44:16Speaker 02

  The only reason why I mention is because everybody's just like, what everyone's gonna say is, well, what about strength? And you're losing your muscle, you're not getting enough protein. It's like, I, I plugged in everything that I ate the other day. Just to see, you know, like in the nutrition calculator, just to see like, okay, I'm eating all this fruit, hardly anything else. Let's see like, how much protein I'm actually getting and how much fat I'm actually getting. And like, I didn't even try to like, calculate it as 80, 10, 10. I just put in how much I was doing by these guidelines and it was like,

• 2:44:52Speaker 02

  82, 9, 8 or something like that. And all I got like 78 grams of protein from, just from fruit. And people don't realize that like, like, people will get a banana or something. They're like, oh, that only has like a gram or gram and half a protein. And that's not that much. And we're always hung up on these ratios. And it's like, but, but if you eat the fruit throughout the day, you end up getting enough protein. You know what I mean? Like, your body cannot absorb as much protein as all these people have been going around trying to say that you need to get. And you know what? It, it, it kind of frustrates me because these people like Rob Wolf and that other, the guy that's constantly peddling

• 2:45:36Speaker 02

  products on, on Rogan's podcast, the Asprey guy, like these guys, he's horrible. Like, he, he's so full of it, by the way. Like, the guy says like, like, he'll say four or five things that are spot on. And then he'll just make these blanket statements based on these cockamamie, like, like, what, what does he go on PubMed?

• 2:45:57Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, I think, I think with Asprey, like, he seems to have, there's a smattering of good ideas. And then there's the smattering of, of science, regurgitated science. And he's a smart guy. So he can talk fast and he throws enough ideas out there where you're like, oh, he sounds compelling and legitimate. And it takes a moment to like, oh, wait a minute, do I really want to put butter in my coffee?

• 2:46:20Speaker 02

  He totally pulled, pulled the wool over Joe's eyes.

• 2:46:24Rich Roll?

  Well, then he said, well, he also said that, that, I mean, first of all, he's not an athlete. He's like, I exercise 45 minutes a month or a week or something like that. It was like, so I, I, right there, I was like, all right, well, he can't speak to what I have to.

• 2:46:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and what, what is, what is he proving? That, that was my whole question is a lot of these people, like, what, what are you, where's your example of, of the great health? Is it you that say that you don't work out that much? And then you've got fat guy abs with a little bit of definition that's supposed to speak to like? Like some part of the population that wants to look that way? I mean, what is it that you can actually do? Like, you're talking about your IQ tests and all these sorts of things, which are all just subjective, like, like, "I'll take the Pepsi challenge with this guy." You know what I mean? Like, what do you want to do? A foot race? Do you want to read a book? And we'll both like, do you like?

• 2:47:22Speaker 02

  A book report. Yeah, you know, what about? Anything you're doing, it like proves that your diet is somehow superior. Now, I don't mind people saying like, "Hey, I do this diet. Like, this is what I'm into." But when you start selling people products and you start making money off of it and you're the whole thing is you're like, like peddling products, then it's, it starts becoming really, that's the whole thing. Like, I've got my stance and my stance is that, like, this is what I do and I really don't care if anyone else does it and that's on you. You know what I mean? But, but, but the moment you try to sell people things and then you start making statements like, "Well, I mean, if someone is vegan, they're gonna have B12 deficiency and if

• 2:48:07Speaker 02

  they, and vegan children are proven to have a lower brain function and all this stuff." And so, you go to this guy's website and you're like, "What is he talking about? Lower brain function?" You see this blanket statement, like, "Vegans have, vegan children have lower brain function." Then you click on the actual reference to it and the reference is to some study with like 25 people in 1995 in Florida that was completely inconclusive. But nobody goes to the trouble of checking on these links for this, this supposed proof for these statements. And so, he's making blanket statements about inconclusive studies with 25 people.

• 2:48:52Speaker 02

  And, and I looked on the thing that was, he was making a statement about veganism and it was a study about the macrobiotic diet in 1995 in Florida with like 20 people. It's like, dude, like, like now you're just lying. You know what I mean? So, so anyway, I don't, I apologize. I'm like, this guy isn't here to defend himself. It's wrong of me, so I'm not gonna put you in this situation anymore. I got way off on track, but what? What was I saying?

• 2:49:19Rich Roll?

  You were talking about.

• 2:49:20Speaker 02

  Coffee, coffee, yeah.

• 2:49:21Rich Roll?

  Oh, right, like the high, the low carb, high fat.

• 2:49:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and so like a lot of the people that are doing the eighty ten ten are like, hey, the reason why these people need like the coffee all the time and all these stimulants and everything is because they're, they're like consuming all this stuff that doesn't give them enough energy. And I can tell you from my, like, I'm not going to say it works for everyone. Doug Graham and, and Harley, those guys will say it worked, it can work for everybody. I will say it works for me. It's working for me so far and it's working excellently. And, and I've, I just know that, um, like, for me, carbohydrates have always been so important. I've always felt like I needed them. And any time that I've sacrificed

• 2:50:05Speaker 02

  that in my diet for protein and fat intake, I paid the price because the body had, when you're training twice a day, like, two and a half hours each time, your body needs energy and it's, and, and as much as you're breaking down your muscles and you need this protein and all this stuff, your body needs to convert those protein and fat molecules into, into energy. You know what I mean? Like, and how, how was it gonna do, how was it gonna break those calories, those calories down into energy? And, and your liver has to, you know what I mean? Like, all this other stuff has to happen. And it's so hard for your body to do. And as soon as I turned over to the fruit diet, I started feeling amazing. And

• 2:50:48Speaker 02

  I've felt amazing ever since. And my weight is low. And like, I'm so happy that I'm waking up at a hundred and sixty five pounds. I mean, it's, it's huge for me. You know what I mean? It's like, that's, I'm not inflamed either. That's a big thing, man, is, is inflammation. Like, when I would eat, like, high amounts of fats, even the good fats, you know, I'm talking like, I'm not talking like margarine and cooking with olive oil. I'm talking like, you know, chia seeds, hemp seeds, walnuts, like, all these good fats, you know, coconut and everything. And, and the stuff that I still eat just in smaller quantities. There was always a, I'm very, very sensitive to inflammation because I have a deviated

• 2:51:29Speaker 02

  septum and so I've only got like 10% capacity of air through one nostril and like 30% through the other. So just the slightest amount of inflammation in the sinuses and all of a sudden I can't breathe. Yeah, yeah. So it's like a very, very like, like tight gauge that I have there for that. And that has like made it really easy for me to tell. And as soon as I start like, like deviating from this, no pun intended, from this diet, like I will not be able to breathe, you know, so.

• 2:52:02Rich Roll?

  That's amazing. I mean, yeah, I'm gonna have to try this. Cause like too many people are saying like, you know, I've, I've talked to too many people that are having really great experiences with it. So I can't ignore it. You know what I mean? And, and it's, it's compelling when, look, it's one thing if a guy who likes to go out and run 50 mile races talks about it, you know, an endurance athlete or somebody who's, who's kind of sport is reliant on being pretty slight, you know, but when a strength athlete, somebody who's prowess relies on speed, power and, you know, and just pure strength and maneuverability.

• 2:52:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:42Rich Roll?

  That's different. You know what I mean? And so you're the first kind of non-endurance, even not, I mean, MMA is an endurance sport, but it's different. It's skills, strength, speed, all that kind of thing to, to talk about it. And that's interesting.

• 2:52:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's, you know, when another thing that, and this, this might only pertain to me because I find that a lot of other people don't have problems with, with the whole portion control thing. But I've always been one of those people who's like, like, especially later on in my life is once I started to eat large quantities per meal. It's been very hard for me to start just like

• 2:53:21Rich Roll?

  Go back down.

• 2:53:21Speaker 02

  Having little snacks and stuff like that. And I know a lot of people like, I mean, like my buddy Gray Maynard is a professional fighter and like, he's still, you know, he's eating what he wants right now, but he's just controlling the portions. And to me, that's the hardest thing is controlling the portions when I'm hungry.

• 2:53:39Rich Roll?

  It's like being an alcoholic and saying, I'm only gonna have like six beers this week.

• 2:53:42Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:53:43Rich Roll?

  You're, oh, you're in pain the whole time.

• 2:53:45Speaker 02

  I'm a foodaholic. I'm not gonna, I don't like playing that game. It's painful for me to play that game. So, the great thing is, is I eat until I'm full whenever I want. You know what I mean? Like I'll have, I'll have three bananas and I'm like, okay, like I want a few more and I have a few more and then I have a few nectarines. And then I go and I eat a bunch of mango and then I'll have some watermelon and I'm like, okay, I'm cool. And then like if in an hour, in an hour, I feel like having more, I'll have more and like I'll have, I'll cut open a pineapple and then just eat it. Like it's, it's great, you know, and I, I feel good.

• 2:54:20Rich Roll?

  So you do that, so you're sort of like, are you just feel like you're just grazing all day long? Or do you sit down and have meals?

• 2:54:26Speaker 02

  No, I'll sit down and have a meal and I'll become like really, like, like I'll just have, I'll have like a a thing of grapes, maybe like two pounds of it or something like that. And then I'll just be good for a little while. And then like, I'll have some fruit and then a big salad, you know, like a really big salad. And then I'll be good for, for a while. And like, I find it different all the time. Like a lot of people say, like when they're doing this, that they only eat like twice a day and they just gorge themselves. And other people say they graze, but I find myself grazing a little bit. And then other times I'll just, I'll graze and then I'll have a big meal and then I'll just be done for like the rest of the day and I won't even want anymore. And then other times I,

• 2:55:06Speaker 02

  I binge like four or five times. It's just, it's all like what my body needs. I'm listening to my hunger and then just satisfying it right away with mostly fruits and vegetables and mostly, and then, you know, a little bit, you know, every now and then I'll want something. That's a little bit different. I'm not like completely raw on it, you know, I'm not eating a lot of rice or potatoes or anything like that.

• 2:55:29Rich Roll?

  Like cooked beans or anything like that, or what I mean, what are you doing that are that's cooked?

• 2:55:32Speaker 02

  Like, yeah, the the stuff that I like do that's not raw and and I think I'm going to transition away from this eventually, but like I'm still every now and then having like hummus that doesn't have any oil in it or something. You know what I mean? Like no oil free hummus or like, um, like I still had like some tofu and stuff like like some baked tofu, just a little bit of that every now and then. But I'm I'm feeling like I'm going to transition away from that and do it like mostly raw, uh, like here pretty soon. But that stuff has been like my little all every now and then or all like, oh, there's some like whatever, like some kale chips or something like that, that sort of thing. That's that's been like

• 2:56:14Speaker 02

  my but but I mean, my diet in the past was always just like all over the place, you know, like eating at like Indian restaurants and Thai food restaurants and and just, you know, just having all this amazing salty fat food and.

• 2:56:29Rich Roll?

  Right. It's pretty easy to eat a junk food vegan diet.

• 2:56:32Speaker 02

  Sure, sure. I'm like the the I'm like the yellow curry with tofu king.

• 2:56:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, or you know, buffalo wings at Veggie Grill or something like that.

• 2:56:42Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly.

• 2:56:43Rich Roll?

  That are tasty, but you know, that's not what you should be doing if you want to be performing. But so do you do, um, there's a lot of noise. Sorry.

• 2:56:52Speaker 02

  I think staying away from I think staying away from oil is the one big thing. I don't think it means like necessarily like staying away from fats and I'll still have like some nuts and stuff like that. But but, um, staying away from the oil.

• 2:57:07Rich Roll?

  Like sort of store bought almond butter and things like.

• 2:57:10Speaker 02

  Right, right, right, right.

• 2:57:11Rich Roll?

  A lot of oil in that.

• 2:57:12Speaker 02

  Or things that like basically not having anything that has like added oil in the ingredients, like anything that was like, oh, well, this is like canola oil or like I'm going to cook something and I'm going to cook it with some olive oil. Like I'm just staying away from from that completely.

• 2:57:30Rich Roll?

  You do like you do like blended drinks or juicing or smoothies and stuff like that?

• 2:57:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. Yeah, I had. Yeah, this morning I had a smoothie. It was probably about a thousand calories. It was like, um.

• 2:57:43Speaker 02

  A ton of frozen mangoes and then I think three bananas, some pineapple, some blueberry, some kale, and then I put like a half a scoop or like a quarter of a scoop of the mango flavored Vega smoothie mix in there. And I think just water and maybe some strawberries, yeah, and just blended that all up and it was amazing. I mean, so many mangoes, you know, when they're fresh, man, there's nothing like it.

• 2:58:17Rich Roll?

  Do you go, like when I had Aronstein on the show, he was talking about how he goes to the fruit wholesalers and like basically backs a truck up in the spot, you know, he has to have, he has like four refrigerators or something like that because he's just buying so much fruit and storing it. He's like, dude, he's like, listen, it's, I'm telling you, it's, it's like not the easiest thing, you know, like, he's like, it's expensive and like, you know, it's not like norm, you know, it's not like, it doesn't, doesn't really fit into, you know, mainstream society. I mean, he's made it work and all of that.

• 2:58:49Speaker 02

  See, I'm not quite at that level, but I will admit that my, my fridge is completely full, you know, most of the time. Like, I mean, I just bought two fig trees that I'm planting in the backyard. Yeah. I mean, like, I never, I never had figs. Like, like, I mean, I've had dried figs like five times in my life and I wasn't ever really that impressed by them. And they're, they're ripe now and they're fresh and they're so good. And I've just been buying them. Like, I'm, it, it opens this door. All of a sudden you start trying all this different stuff. And like, well, I've had medjool dates. Let me try, let me try these dates. And just trying all these different types of dates and all this stuff. And it's, it's, it's interesting because just like with the vegan diet, how a lot

• 2:59:31Speaker 02

  of people will say, actually, it's not restrictive. Once I turned vegan, it opened up the door to all these amazing different foods out there. This is doing the same thing for me. It's like, there's, it's not just fruit. Like, yeah, you can do what some of these people do and say like, yeah, just like 30 bananas a day or whatever. And sure, you can, you can do that. But like, to me, it's like, I like the variety. I like having green grapes and red grapes and, you know, like pineapple, mango, papaya, like, you know, star fruit, like all this, like different stuff, you know, that's out there and all these like plums and nectarines and peaches and white peaches and all these different kinds of apples. And there's all this stuff.

• 3:00:12Speaker 02

  And it's so cool. It's really given, it's helping me out a lot and it's making me feel good about diet and good about my weight again. And I mean, if you would have asked me, well, what's your typical diet? Like, you know, just even a few months ago, you know, I would have told you, you know, the, the same thing that I've always been saying, oh, well, I'm eating good and I'm eating like the cashews and walnuts and the chia seeds and I get the greens and I get this and that. And it's always, it's still good, but I was having such a hard time eating till I was satisfied and not getting a little bit over what I should.

• 3:00:50Rich Roll?

  Weight wise?

• 3:00:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. And for me, you know, when I say I'm fat, I'm not fat.

• 3:00:55Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, you're hyper, hyper, you know, sensitive and aware of what your weight is every day.

• 3:01:00Speaker 02

  Sure, sure, sure. But I would be inflamed and I would have a certain amount of inflammation, you know what I mean? In my joints and my sinuses and I could tell. And now I don't deal with that at all anymore.

• 3:01:10Rich Roll?

  Well, that's the, you know, that's the promised land. I mean, the more you can reduce that kind of inflammation, you know, it's like, people out there know, but you know, you, you take an insurance policy out against getting sick, your body repairs itself more quickly, you're functioning better, you recover more quickly between workouts. And if you can do that, then you can train harder and you can train longer and, you know, protract that over a course of a season and you're going to see some serious performance gains.

• 3:01:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely.

• 3:01:37Rich Roll?

  So it'll be interesting to see, like, if and when you get back into like a hardcore training routine, like how it holds up.

• 3:01:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:01:44Rich Roll?

  Especially through, like, I've seen how it works with endurance athletes and it works, it works fine by the people that I know that are doing it. How does it work, you know, with maintaining and building strength?

• 3:01:56Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 3:01:57Rich Roll?

  You know, speed, mobility, all that kind of stuff. I'd be interested to have you come back and talk about that a little bit more.

• 3:02:03Speaker 02

  I'd love to. And like, like, just, I mean, the last four weeks of my training are the most intensive and that's when I trained.

• 3:02:09Rich Roll?

  That's when you were doing it, right, yeah.

• 3:02:11Speaker 02

  That's when I was doing it and I felt great. And like, I mean, you know, like, the fight itself didn't go that great, but there's been many fights in my career that didn't go that great. And there've been many fights that did go great, you know, it's just, that's more a technical thing.

• 3:02:28Rich Roll?

  Right. It wasn't like, oh, my diet was off for this.

• 3:02:31Speaker 02

  Not at all. I've never felt that good in between rounds before. I mean, like after the first round. You know, the first round was kind of even. He probably won the first round because I really didn't connect with anything and he connected with a couple of things, but it was just like not, not a lot happened. There was a lot of like, you know, stuff going on and a lot of attempts, but nothing much happened. But I didn't feel even the slightest bit tired. I felt great. You know what I mean? And that's the one thing like, like the worst case scenario happened. I lost the fight. I got knocked out. It was bad, but then like afterwards, man, I, I mean, I'm just like, dude, I'm staying on this diet. I feel great. Like I'm not, I'm not gonna change and like, you know, wallow in self pity

• 3:03:16Speaker 02

  or any of this crap and go eat a bunch of cookies like I always do. I'm gonna, I'm gonna stay on this. I mean, like this, this is great.

• 3:03:23Rich Roll?

  Did you have some, some, you have to break some craving cycles to get there?

• 3:03:27Speaker 02

  I didn't get any cravings. That was the whole thing. Cause I'm always satisfied with this stuff. Yeah. And like, I mean, it's so weird because I was always one of those people that was, would mention like, hey, just cause I'm vegan, it doesn't mean I eat like a rabbit. Like I don't go around just like having handfuls of spinach and stuff like I eat, you know, my, you know, like, like I'll have like this awesome curry thing or I'll have like, you know, this veggie burger thing. It's gluten free and like I, you know, I eat french fries sometimes and all this stuff. And the, now it's like, dude, heirloom tomatoes are so fresh right now. They're in season. And I'll just have, I'll eat one of those like someone eats an apple.

• 3:04:12Speaker 02

  And I mean, that just sounds like a lot of people that's, that it's a put off to them because they're just like, oh, that's crazy. Cause it doesn't appeal to them because they're like stuck in the junk food cycle. I mean, I admit when I'm eating like soy ice cream all the time. When I do that in the past.

• 3:04:29Rich Roll?

  Then that's what you crave. You create a cycle around that.

• 3:04:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, someone might be like, hey, have some delicious grapes. And I'd be like, like, that's not even sweet. I need real sweet. You know what I mean? Like, it's not even, I can't even register it. But now I'm like, yes, like, like, just give me the grapes, like, just give me the fruit. And I'm not interested in that other stuff. Because I know that as soon as I eat it, it might feel good going down, but I'm gonna pay for it. I'm gonna feel bad. I'm gonna have inflammation.

• 3:04:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, the one thing I can say for sure is that the people that I've talked to that have, that are on the 80 10 10, and then people I'm just aware of, like, like Harley, like Durian Rider, they are the most enthusiastic, very enthusiastic. You know, they're like, you understand? It's, you know, like, they're like, it's, it's like, like, they're brimming over with excitement about how good they feel. And, and part of me is like, whoa, calm down. You know what I mean? And then the other part of me is like, well, no, that's, they're authentically saying, you know, this is like, they're not like BSing, like, this is how they feel. Like, there's something going on here.

• 3:05:37Rich Roll?

  So it's fascinating. I've got, I'm trying to get Doug Graham on the podcast.

• 3:05:43Speaker 02

  Oh, that'd be cool.

• 3:05:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So I think, I think it's, I could do it by Skype, but I want to do it with him in person. He was just in LA not too long ago, I think, but I don't know that he has any plans to be here anytime soon.

• 3:05:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. See, that's the thing with my podcast. There was a couple of times, there was more than a few times, and I was like, you know, I have some friends in, in the UK, and I have like some friends on the East Coast. And I was like, I should do this via Skype. I've done other people's podcasts via Skype, and I should do this. But then I got so much flack for like, the audio as it was. And I was using mics and like a little task amp thing. And I was like, doing all this audio stuff. And I'm like, man, like, like, if people don't like that, they're really not gonna like a Skype interview over webcams, though.

• 3:06:28Rich Roll?

  I mean, I think the thing with Skype is. You just missed that extra thing. Like if we were to do this by Skype, we would have shut this thing down after an hour.

• 3:06:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:06:37Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 3:06:38Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 3:06:38Rich Roll?

  And it's like, you're like, kind of looking at your phone during, while you're talking. You know, it's just not the same experience.

• 3:06:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 3:06:44Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? You don't have that, like, when you're sitting across from somebody and you kind of allow that space for something different to happen.

• 3:06:50Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 3:06:51Rich Roll?

  You know, and I've done Skype interviews and they're fine. They're totally fine and good.

• 3:06:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:06:55Rich Roll?

  But I always want to, I'd always prefer to like...

• 3:06:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:06:58Rich Roll?

  And the great thing about the podcast is it, like, that's allowed me to meet a lot of cool people.

• 3:07:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 3:07:03Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, selfishly, like...

• 3:07:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:07:05Rich Roll?

  You know, now I have an excuse to harass somebody about coming over.

• 3:07:09Speaker 02

  And these are connections, too. You know what I mean? And like, when you have a dialogue like this with somebody, you bond with them, and then that's a real connection. Even though, like, it's like, this is like, like, we created this because we're like, we want to have a podcast and we're also talking to an audience as we talk to each other. Like, we've, we've created a bond and you and I have already known each other anyway. But like, when you, when you meet someone and you have a dialogue with them, it's like, that's a real connection. That's cool.

• 3:07:38Rich Roll?

  When was the last time you sat down with someone and had a three-hour conversation?

• 3:07:42Speaker 02

  Can't even remember, probably the last time I did a podcast.

• 3:07:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know, exactly, right?

• 3:07:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:07:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so that's what we did here. We got our, we, I think we broke the record on length here. We're definitely, we're three hours.

• 3:07:54Speaker 02

  I apologize.

• 3:07:55Rich Roll?

  Don't apologize, it's awesome. You know what I mean? Thank you for being so generous with your time to...

• 3:08:01Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 3:08:01Rich Roll?

  ...talk all this stuff out, and I could definitely, you know, we could go on, so...

• 3:08:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, we gotta do it again.

• 3:08:06Rich Roll?

  We're in the same area, so...

• 3:08:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:08:08Rich Roll?

  Bring Nova, hang out at the house. We'll do it again.

• 3:08:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, that would be awesome.

• 3:08:13Rich Roll?

  You good, man? You cool?

• 3:08:14Speaker 02

  I'm good, man.

• 3:08:14Rich Roll?

  Anything else you want to talk about?

• 3:08:15Speaker 02

  Um, no, man, I'm good, man. I think, I think I covered a lot of stuff.

• 3:08:21Rich Roll?

  We did, we hit on a lot of things, I think.

• 3:08:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I rambled on for a while and, you know, yeah, I'm good to go.

• 3:08:28Rich Roll?

  Cool, so, um, excuse me. If people want to connect with you, you're on Twitter at MacDanzigMMA.

• 3:08:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:08:38Rich Roll?

  And is there anywhere else online where?

• 3:08:40Speaker 02

  No, not really.

• 3:08:41Rich Roll?

  Wow, dude, you don't even have like a website, you're not even rocking a website right now, are you? You had a photography site up.

• 3:08:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, let me explain my photography site. It's funny, like me not being someone who has a lot of time to deal with stuff like that.

• 3:08:58Rich Roll?

  We gotta sort you out, man.

• 3:08:59Speaker 02

  Okay. The guy that was doing my website, he wasn't actually doing it, but he was just, he's been helping me for years and he just would like pay for the domain name. Well, like for some reason, he changed his card over or something and it didn't charge him and the email notice got sent to his spam.

• 3:09:17Rich Roll?

  Oh, you lost your...

• 3:09:18Speaker 02

  Long story short, yeah, he didn't renew the domain because he didn't think about it. And then some company in Japan, some spam company, just like a bot, like bot, the...

• 3:09:29Rich Roll?

  Bot MacDanzig.

• 3:09:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, photography.com. And so like, yeah, so now you can, so if anyone's, yeah, I want to say this. If anyone's interested in my photography, it's MacDanzigPhoto.net. That's the new one and it's not MacDanzigPhotography.net. It's MacDanzigPhoto.net, all one word. And that's, that's, that's my photography site.

• 3:09:53Rich Roll?

  Who's got MacDanzig.com?

• 3:09:55Speaker 02

  That's been had since I was on the show and right after the show, I tried to buy it. Yeah, and they're like holding it for ransom and they want like a lot of money for it. So more money than I'm willing to spend. But anyway, I'm not on Facebook, never will be. There's a Facebook fan page for me that like my manager, like my coach is, is, is working on. You might've seen it and that's, yeah, it's not a good way to get a hold of me, but like there's some info and stuff on there, which is fine. But yeah, MacDanzigMMA on Twitter is really my only...

• 3:10:26Rich Roll?

  Sometimes you're on there, sometimes you're not.

• 3:10:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not on there all the time, but like I do check it. And, and then, yeah, I'm going to be getting, I'm going to get a website together and then it'll be a website that, that, you know, I can be booked for speaking engagements and then I can, it will also have information about a diet and a blog and... I'm not saying I'm gonna keep up on the blog constantly, but like I will do it more and have like more diet examples and have more stuff, like more information and then also links to the photography and links to what I'm doing, involved with MMA and coaching people and things like that. So it'll sort of be like a jack-of-all-trades type of website,

• 3:11:12Speaker 02

  but I'm gonna get that up soon and yeah, it'll be good.

• 3:11:16Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Cool.

• 3:11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:11:18Rich Roll?

  All right, man. You're an inspiration. Thanks for taking the time.

• 3:11:22Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 3:11:23Rich Roll?

  All right, we'll get you back on soon. Thanks, man.

• 3:11:25Speaker 02

  Take care.

• 3:11:26Rich Roll?

  Peace. Plants.