#2288 - Jacques Vallée

Jacques Vallée is a venture capitalist, technologist, and prominent figure in the field of unidentified aerial phenomena. His new book is Forbidden Science 6: Scattered Castles, The Journals of Jacques Vallee 2010-2019. www.jacquesvallee.net This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. Now this is taxes. Get an expert now at TurboTax.com This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com/JRE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  What's up, sir? Very good to see you. Good to see you. I really enjoyed our conversation last night. We all went out to dinner and Hal Pudoff blew my mind. As you know, I've known him for a long time. Yeah, when did you meet him? What year? I knew him at SRI, actually. I was at Stanford Research Institute before him, in one of the very early Internet research teams, when there was no Internet. It was called the ARPANET. It was the network of the Advanced Research Project Agency, and it was all, you know, computer experiment and so on. It turned into...

• 0:52Speaker 01

  We had Engine Number Three on the Internet at SRI. Wow. In California. Engine Number Three on the ARPANET. By the time I joined them, there were like thirty machines already, so... And it was exciting. And then, you know, Dr. Pudoff and Russell Tark came in with a proposal to SRI to do, apparently, psychology research at SRI, which had never been done. And it was funny because the... So I was already there, you know, in a team. What year was this? What year?

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Oh, God. Seventy-four. Wow. Seventy... So the ARPANET was around seventy-four. Yeah. And it was funny because I was in my office and the Vice President of SRI came in, closed the door, and said, Jacques, you know, you've published some things controversial under your name on UFOs, and you haven't lost your scientific reputation, which is why you're here, working for us at SRI.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  On the opponent, but you know, there's a proposal from Dr. Pudoff and Dr. Tark to do parapsychology research here, and we've never done that. And I said, well, you know, it's a very valid, I think it's a very valid area of research, we should, you know, we're the kind of institution that should do that. He said, well, let me, let me draw something on your whiteboard. And he drew a scale, a horizontal scale. And on, on one side, there was a little square. He said, this is the most we can expect in terms of funding for research in parapsychology.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  You know, it's maybe at most a million a year. Okay. And here is what I manage, you know, in this division. He drew a huge cube, you know, it said a hundred and fifty million dollars. Should we jeopardize the research we do for Xerox and IBM and AT&T and Bank of America and so on, just to do some research on, you know, psychic things? And I said, well, you know, the, the reason we, we get all this money from DOD and Bank of America and so on, is that we do the research that they can't do themselves.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  We do, we do the, you know, we go out and we take risk. And I think we should take the same risk with, with Hal Pudoff and Russell Tark, because this could be very big, you know, there is a lot of literature on this already, and we can bring the science into it, and they can bring the science into it, you know. And he said, well, there is a meeting of the board of directors of SRI, you know, in two days, and most of them are against it.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  What do I tell them? And I said, well, I can, you know, I can write up the, the reasons why in science you have to take chances, and this is science. I mean, this isn't just engineering. And he said, well, give me a memo by, by tomorrow at 12. So I went home and I wrote a two-page memo, which was confidential. I don't, don't think anybody has seen it for the, for the board, explaining why there was scientific evidence, you know, enough of it, so that good research could be done.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  And I, I, you know, obviously, that, that may have helped in getting, getting the approval for them to come in. And then after the first year, you know, they were there because, you know, the, the money kept coming and the results can, you know, good scientific results came in, came out of it.

• 5:28Joe Rogan?

  So when you say parapsychology, specifically, what were you attempting to study?

• 5:33Speaker 01

  So most of parapsychology, you know, as the name indicates, has been studied by psychologists. You know, people who have experiences and they relate their experiences and they have strange dreams, they have all that. And, and then that has been structured by, you know, people doing experiments. For example, you know, trying to move objects with your mind, trying to, of course, send messages psychically to other people and, or guessing what's written in a closed envelope and so on, that kind of thing.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  And, but again, those were done by good experimentalists, but it was, where is the physics of it? I mean, you know, because in physics, you know, those things are not supposed to happen.

• 6:28Joe Rogan?

  Without an understanding of a sense that perhaps we're not quite aware of.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  That's right, and that, you know, our physics has been dealing with objects and with atoms and all that. But it's it's clear in modern physics that there are other things and that the theories we have about the the different fields in the universe are in conflict with each other. And our relativity and quantum mechanics are in conflict.

• 6:59Joe Rogan?

  I was reading something that was, God, I just, I glanced at it quickly and I was running out the door, but I was gonna ask Jamie to pull it up. They, they, there's new research that shows that human beings have the ability to detect the magnetic field. The same way that birds do when they fly south and and other animals they believe do when they navigate terrain. They think that human beings have this ability. But perhaps it's something that we have ignored so long, it's atrophied, or it's not something that we use.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  That's a question for, you know, a biologist or specialist of the brain. Although it may not be in in the brain itself, it may be diffused in in the organism. So I'm not really qualified, you know.

• 7:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, I was gonna ask Jamie to pull up the article, but the point being that there perhaps are senses that we're either not aware of, humans like other animals may sense earth's magnetic field, yeah, this is it. Okay, this is from a while ago, this is from 2019. Okay, this is not the same article, but it's probably a rehash.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  There's another similar one here from like a month ago that's the exact same title.

• 8:15Joe Rogan?

  Yes, that's what I saw. This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. We're all just trying to level up, right? I'm always trying to push myself, whether it's training, learning something new, or just trying to be a better human. You put in work physically, mentally, and over time you evolve. It's 2025, doing your taxes has evolved too. Just like we put in the work to level up, TurboTax has put in the work to make taxes effortless. Because now taxes. Is getting matched up with a TurboTax Live expert who has the latest tech. With that, they can cross-check millions of data points to make sure that your return is 100% accurate.

• 8:58Joe Rogan?

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• 9:17Speaker 01

  You know, if you look at the history of the islands in the Pacific, like I spent some time in Tahiti and I looked at their traditions, they were navigating the Pacific fine. They knew where they were going. Now, part of that was navigating with the moon, but part of it was something else. And on every ship, they had one, you know, one man who was gifted in guiding with respect, of course, guiding with respect to what the ocean looked like and to the moon and so on. But also, that's never really been explained.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  They had an uncanny ability to get to the right islands, you know, on the way to their destination and to guide those ships. Otherwise, they would have been, you know, they didn't have compasses.

• 10:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  And there are books now coming out, certainly, I found some of those books in, you know, in Tahiti about the history of that and the research that's been done into those people. But they were, they were special people. They were, you know, they were gifted. That's not something, you know, that I could do.

• 10:43Joe Rogan?

  Have you heard or listened to the telepathy tapes? The telepathy tapes, are you aware of this?

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Uh, vaguely.

• 10:52Joe Rogan?

  It's a podcast that's about non-verbal autistic kids that demonstrate psychic ability. Um, provable, they've got dozens of these cases on video where people in other rooms are looking at objects, the child completely locked off, can't see them at all, will say and write down what those objects are, colors, numbers in sequence, and very accurately. And so they believe that this is something that, well, many of these parents have talked about it in the past, but felt foolish, felt like it was something that they would be ridiculed about, and so they didn't want to talk about it openly. But once they started gathering up information, they got more people to open up about this, then they start documenting it.

• 11:37Joe Rogan?

  And so they start coming up with ways to make sure that there couldn't be any possible way they could be communicating with each other. And, uh, it's just utterly fascinating because they're showing that there is something going on, there's some way of transferring information back and forth. Including some of these teachers have figured out a way to not just receive, but also transmit the same way these children have. So, people that aren't non-verbal, and they aren't, they aren't autistic, these people are able to do it as well. They've been able to create a bond with these children and communicate with them.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  And there are companies in Silicon Valley that are, you know, heavily involved in advanced, uh, processing and advanced, uh, programming, specifically recruiting, uh, young men and women with that kind of talent. One of my, I have three grandsons that I love, and one of them is, uh, it's not clear, you know, whether he's actually autistic in the current definition, but he certainly has some of that, you know, some of those indications of.

• 12:46Joe Rogan?

  Some sort of a gift.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Of thinking and getting information in ways that are very different from the, now, it may be that in evolution... The reason, you know, sort of quote lower animals can do it and we cannot is that we've developed other ways of getting information that are more reliable in the long run. So it may be just one of the dormant, you know, abilities that we have that most of us don't, you know, don't develop.

• 13:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  And we're not encouraged to grow it in school because it's, you know, disturbing for the rest of the class and so on.

• 13:30Joe Rogan?

  And perhaps it's something that people had before language. And language and then written language and then, of course, media sort of eroded those abilities.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Yes. And you find that also in South America and in Australia, you know.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  In Australia, New Zealand.

• 13:54Joe Rogan?

  And the indigenous people.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Natives, but, you know, up to the current population.

• 14:02Joe Rogan?

  Right. So perhaps it's something that we all had and we've lost it. Now, when you were initially studying parapsychology, what were the protocols that you were using? Like, how were you trying to determine whether or not people were capable?

• 14:18Speaker 01

  So, you know, again, in my own,

• 14:25Speaker 01

  I've studied parapsychology more as a, you know, as a personal interest. But Dr. Pudoff and Dr. Targ were doing it as with scientific controls. I mean, that was the point. That to look at it from a physics point of view, you know, not just from a parapsychology or psychology point of view. So they were designing tests that were.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  More tied to physical quantities. And one of the people that they brought in was Ingo Swann, who was an artist from New York. He was very uncomfortable with California. The sky is always blue, you know, it's boring and so on. He liked New York. He liked the animation of the city and his friends and so on. But I knew, of course, of him. I had read some of the things. So when he came to SRI, he told me that, you know, remote viewing is one thing, parapsychology, but it should be applied to science.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  And also, you know, it had to be applied to intelligence in the sense of, you know, the intelligence agencies were funding SRI to do this. Okay. The three-letter, you know, agencies, there were a number of them who are very interested. Because I knew that gift existed, you know, in pilots and a number of people.

• 16:06Joe Rogan?

  And so they were trying to figure out a way to utilize this for military applications?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Mostly to look at developments in the Soviet Union at that point.

• 16:15Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so they were trying-

• 16:16Speaker 01

  But also, you know, lost spacecraft. They found a lost spacecraft in the middle of a jungle in Africa. And so by parapsychology.

• 16:26Joe Rogan?

  Who's spacecraft, ours?

• 16:29Speaker 01

  No, it was Russian.

• 16:31Joe Rogan?

  They, so they found it through like remote viewing?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:35Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 16:36Speaker 01

  So when, so Ingo was starting to go around the labs at SRI. He wanted to, he was, he had never been in a scientific institution where it's full of computers and gadgets and measuring instruments and everything else. So he wanted to know, he saw that as the next domain where parapsychology could be applied in a strict scientific rational way. So he was, I was one of the people that he wanted to talk to. And I told him, do you know how a computer finds data?

• 17:19Speaker 01

  You have a computer, a machine full of chips. How does it deal with the real world? And he said, I have no idea. I mean, I've never looked inside a computer. And I said, well, there's three ways. You know, as a programmer, I can declare a variable. I can say, x is always going to be 3.14, okay? Or pi. But in many cases, I can give you the address of the place where I've put the data. That is going to be different. The address is going to be the same, but the data is going to change every time. So, but I can give you the address. It's 2314.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  2314 is where I'm going to put, you know, the age of the patient, okay? But it's going to be different with every patient. So that's direct addressing. But I can also put in that location, I can put the address of somewhere else, which I'm going to compute in my program. And that's indirect addressing. And then there's the rest of the world, which is too big to put inside the machine. I mean, the machine has a memory, maybe very big, but it's still limited. So it's going to go get the information from some memory device somewhere else.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  You know, maybe the World Bank and/or the Library of Congress. And there, I cannot give you the address. But I can give you a sort of imaginary process by which you can derive the address when you get there and bring it into the memory of your computer and then work with it. And... He said, you know, that's it. That's, that's what I need. And then he came up with the, the, the idea of coordinate remote viewing out of that conversation I had with him.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so that was my contribution to the, the actual project at the beginning. And then he thought the, as an address, he was going to take coordinates, longitude and latitude, because they were, we were going to look at, they were going to, I wasn't officially part of the, uh, but I was, you know, I had passed qualifications to be at SRI in a Department of Defense project. So I, I, I was one of the good guys. So we, uh, we had many conversations with Coffee and so on in the lab with, uh, with Ingo and, and later with Yuri Geller that were absolutely fascinating to me.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  So I, I tried to, in some cases, I, they, they needed to talk to someone who knew technology and was interested in this, even though I wasn't, you know, uh, uh, on the project itself, but somebody who was inside, you know, so that they didn't, the information didn't get, get out into the real world until they were ready to actually publish it. Because everybody wanted to kill their project. I mean, there were so many skeptics saying, you know, this can't work. They are making it up. Right. They are fooled by a presidigitator. You know, Yuri Geller is a magician and all those things.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Well, he is a magician, but, but he's also, you know, uh, uh, an extraordinary.

• 21:01Joe Rogan?

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• 23:46Speaker 01

  Are you psychic?

• 23:48Joe Rogan?

  So could you explain, so they're looking for this Russian spacecraft. So how do they, what's the environment in which they remote view? How do they set this up?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  So Ingo, after the project was pretty much over, there was some continuous studies and Ingo brought me back to work with him. Because he wanted to write a book that would be a synthesis of his methodology, you know, to answer your question of how do you do this? And he had a very structured way of doing that with a number of, what he wanted to do was train people to do that, hopefully to his level. Okay.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  So it was step by step. So there was a first, you had a pad of paper, you know, and a pen. And he was sitting at the end. The table was about like this, you know, except there was nothing on it. In a room that had nothing on the walls, no windows. There was a chair here and a chair there. So he was away from me, I couldn't see what he was reading. He had a stack of targets that were places on the earth. And I mean, obviously, the idea was to look at what was going on in, you know, Vladivostok or in some.

• 25:24Joe Rogan?

  When you say a stack of targets, can you explain, like, is it a map? Is it just coordinates?

• 25:29Speaker 01

  It was just coordinates.

• 25:31Joe Rogan?

  So just numbers?

• 25:32Speaker 01

  He had gotten the maps and those were test things from, you know, geographic features on the earth, cities, mountains and so on. So he would read out the coordinates. And I had a pad of paper and a number two pencil. So everything was very coded, you know, very strict. And I would draw something that he called an ideogram. So it could be like this, you know, it could be a curve, it could be. And then just first impression.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  His theory, which I think, you know, having experienced it, we did that for a year. Now, I had a job somewhere else, but I was coming two mornings a week, you know, to work with him. This was classified, so the other people at SRI had no idea what was going on in that room that was dedicated to his work.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  And the, um, he would read out, his idea was that the, we can all get that signal. You know, there is a signal, if I give you a longitude and a latitude, you potentially can describe what's there. If it's a city, if it's a mountain, if it's, you know, someplace in the country. The reason you cannot is that the signal is overwhelming. The signal is extraordinarily large, much larger than we can hold it in our brains.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  So the people who do that have a way of processing the signal and recalling it. And that's the secret. That's the, that's the main thing to me that's come out of the SRI study, among many things. But, so his, his idea was you have to stop the signal, you have to catch it. It's going to be very, very fast and most people just go on with their life. You know, they just, it's just a passing thing. And, but you can recall the signal. So he would read out the coordinates again. And now my, my little scribble is going to turn into maybe a series of waves

• 28:01Speaker 01

  and then, you know, a city with skyscrapers after, if we do that, a number of waves. Now, there are a lot of Of errors that can come in. And then we can, we can think we recognize it and try to name it. That's the thing you can't, you shouldn't do. You shouldn't try to name it. Because to name it, put it in the other half of the brain, which is logical and rational and, you know. So the idea is to label that as an error. You know, it's not a city by the, by the bay. It's something else. So we go on and we keep just going on. So you have to do that with a very patient guide,

• 28:45Speaker 01

  you know, to train yourself to do that. And SRI, you know, Hal and, and Ingo did that, you know, very well in training a cadre of people who could be almost, not quite, but almost as good as Ingo. There were a couple who were as good, as good as he was. One time, no, I, I said, but Ingo, you know, I'm not psychic. He said, well, you know, think about that because you've shown evidence of having, of understanding the process. You know, there are some things that I did that, that would be classified as psychic. But I cannot do it, I cannot control it.

• 29:29Joe Rogan?

  Right, it just happens randomly.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:31Joe Rogan?

  What kind of, like, what kind of things?

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Well, one time, I, I get there eight thirty in the morning. We close the door. Uh, and he gave, gives me a set of coordinates, longitude and latitude somewhere. And I get very cold right away and I get dizzy. You know, I mean, I, I, you know, I have to grab the table and I, I'm not drawing anything. And Ingo says, Jacques, what's wrong? And I said, Ingo, I, I don't know where you're sending me, but I'm cold, I'm trembling, I'm afraid. I'm afraid of falling. And, uh, you know, I, I really don't, don't feel well.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  And he said, you're on top of a peak in the Andes.

• 30:19Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  So he pulls out the, he pulls out the thing, he gives it, he gives it to me that comes from, um, you know, a, a photograph of, of the Andes, taken from an airplane with this, this peak. And they had computed the coordinates of, of the peak and that's what he was giving me. And I was there.

• 30:41Joe Rogan?

  You felt it physically? Did you see it or did you just feel it?

• 30:45Speaker 01

  No, I, it was just a physiological reaction of my whole body. I was trembling.

• 30:51Joe Rogan?

  Exactly as if you were on a peak.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Freezing cold and I was very afraid of falling.

• 30:55Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  I was falling. And, uh.

• 30:59Joe Rogan?

  Had you had any of these that didn't work? Did they try any?

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. I'm, I'm not, uh, no, you should not use me as a, a remote viewer to launch, um, you know, a tomahawk, uh, over, over somewhere.

• 31:15Joe Rogan?

  So it was.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  That's a problem that of course the army has, you know? Is it good enough so we can launch a rocket?

• 31:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Destroy that thing.

• 31:24Joe Rogan?

  Right. Uh. Who is the best at it? Who's the best at remote? Is there one person that's consistently accurate?

• 31:31Speaker 01

  There are a couple and they, they are not, uh, you know, Ingo was known because he wrote about it and so on. Uh, many of them, Joe McMonigal, uh, is, uh, probably the, the, the best one alive today. Uh, he described, um, a structure and he described a ship that was being built by the Russians, which, which was a super submarine in a hangar somewhere. And the Navy just laughed at him. They said, that's crazy, you know, you, uh, it's in a hangar, you know, uh, away from

• 32:16Speaker 01

  the sea. So why would you build a ship, you know, when you don't have the ocean? Well, it turned out he was right. And it was a super class, a new Soviet submarine. It described the inside of the building, which had no windows and so on. And yeah, I mean, from a satellite, they could see the building, but they couldn't see inside the building. He described what was inside the building. He described the submarine. He described the length and the, you know, he actually measured it psychically. And that turned out to be right. And then when the submarine was built, they brought some bulldozers and they dug, you

• 33:00Speaker 01

  know, a channel to the sea and off it went.

• 33:03Joe Rogan?

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• 34:30Speaker 01

  So.

• 34:31Joe Rogan?

  I had heard about this.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Those things were extraordinary.

• 34:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I had heard about this, but I didn't know it was that accurate.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, that that happened and he was

• 34:43Speaker 01

  as opposed to, you know, one of us, he was, he was right, you know, enough of the time that you could rely on what he was describing. And also, they came up with a way of measuring, actually qualifying, the value of your perception. So I told Ingo, you know, let's do another one because I'm on a roll here, you know, after this peak in the end, he said, no, Jacques, you know, you're going home now. I said, it's nine o'clock, you know, we've only been here half an hour. Why are you sending me home? I mean, this is great. I know, I got it.

• 35:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  He said, yeah, you got it. You don't need all the levels. I mean, you got to the top level. You were there.

• 35:33Joe Rogan?

  Why did he want to send you home?

• 35:35Speaker 01

  He said, I want you to stay with that feeling. I don't want to do another one that you'd miss and so on. I want you to keep that in mind because you got the whole thing.

• 35:47Joe Rogan?

  Is this based on past experiments and the way they were achieving achieving results?

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:53Joe Rogan?

  So he didn't want to bombard you with it?

• 35:55Speaker 01

  You know, every test subject and so on.

• 35:58Joe Rogan?

  So he didn't want to give you another experience. He wanted you to take that experience and just sit with it?

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Keep the experience with me during the day because I got the whole signal.

• 36:09Joe Rogan?

  Right. And did you feel like that if you did that, it would aid you in your ability to do it in the future?

• 36:15Speaker 01

  It would.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Yes, I would lose that sense of

• 36:24Speaker 01

  direct, direct access to something that bypasses the brain, you know.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Basically, you know, I was trained in mathematics and physics and astronomy. So I use the power of my brain that's analytical, you know, and I'm a good programmer, computer programmer and so on. Uh, this is not, this is very different. This is grabbing a signal which has everything in it, you know. And, and being able to, to, to catch it very fast. And just get a little bit of information and then catch it again, recall it. You know, that's what, we were doing that, you know, five times, six times, 10 times.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Until making sure that you don't try to name it, you don't try to, uh, put, you know, a description on top of it, it just stay with the signal.

• 37:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  And that, I think that's an amazing contribution from what Dr. Putov and, and Tag and, and some of their subjects did.

• 37:31Joe Rogan?

  Was there a specific, a specific way that you achieved a state of mind that made you more able to perceive these coordinates or perceive whatever, what signal you're getting from remote viewing?

• 37:46Speaker 01

  There was, uh, I had a lot of admiration and love for Ingo, for what he was capable of doing and, you know, his, his art and his personality and so on. He was, you know, very much admired in the whole, the whole team. And, and here, I think it was the, the structure also of the experiment. You know, I, I, I trusted what he was trying to teach me. I've always-

• 38:20Joe Rogan?

  So you were open to it?

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:22Joe Rogan?

  You trusted it, so you were open to it?

• 38:24Speaker 01

  I had, you know, both the, the admiration and the trust.

• 38:28Joe Rogan?

  Did he ask you to put your mind in a specific place? Did you, was, was there a way of counting yourself into-

• 38:35Speaker 01

  The idea is not to put my mind into it, you know, just to let it-

• 38:40Joe Rogan?

  Just let it come, just be empty.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Because my mind is analytical.

• 38:43Joe Rogan?

  Right, of course.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  And, um, you know, I was always very good in math and, uh-

• 38:54Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, you have to be, if you're going to be an astronomer.

• 38:59Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  And the, so I can be very structured and so on. This is not structured. This is boom. And then, then you can begin to analyze it, but you have to analyze it, keeping your, your rational mind, you know, away from.

• 39:20Joe Rogan?

  So you just have to let the information come to you somehow or another and not try to imagine the information or create the information.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Not to project what it is.

• 39:29Joe Rogan?

  Right, just let it happen to you. And so you had seen him do this. And so you, and you knew that this was a valid field of research. So you were just open to it and you just sat down there and tried to let it happen to you. Did it happen any other time that was, that resembled the Andes Peaks? Where that you have that overwhelming feeling of cold and falling? Did you have that feeling with anything else?

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Yes, I, I had some of that, but this one was, you know, just completely shocking because it was, and I think that's a characteristic of the, when you really get it, you know.

• 40:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  There is no question. And you know, in the movie, Patton?

• 40:20Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Patton is sent to North Africa because to fight Rommel. Rommel is there with his tanks and the American army is going to, isn't ready to invade Europe, but wants to, to start, you know, controlling the, the Germans in North Africa. He's sent there, he lands. There is a, you know, a lieutenant there with a jeep that takes him to the place where there was, there was a, a battle and the Americans were decimated, you know, by Rommel, who was just a genius, you know, German general.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Great with tanks, just like he was. Patton considered him as his major, you know, enemy. Because both of them understood tanks. And so Patton gets in the jeep, that's in the movie, it's just absolutely perfect. I've checked that this was historical, you know, exact in the movie. They, they drive to the site of the battle. And they get to, in the desert, in the jeep. And they get to a fork in the road. And they, you know, the driver takes to the left. And Patton said, "Son, you know, why don't we go to the right? Because that's where the battle was."

• 41:50Speaker 01

  And the, the driver says, "Sir, you know, with all due respect, I mean, I, I, I was there in that battle, it's on the left." He said, "Trust me, go to the right." And they go to the right and they get to the edge of the plateau where you see a big plane. And Patton says, "This is where the battle was with Hannibal came from the left with his elephants." You know, and the, the battle was there, you know, in. And, and I, I had been there. I was there. Patton thought that in his, he was reincarnated

• 42:32Speaker 01

  from a, a Roman general who had been at that battle against Hannibal and his elephants. And, you know, the poor driver saying, "How, how did this happen? You know, how did I get here with, with this general who thinks he's reincarnated, you know, who fought against Hannibal?" And.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  I've worked with people, as you know, I've run a number of venture capital funds, with people who had that kind of intuition, you know, and you think, you think finance is driven by greed and so on, but at some level greed doesn't really matter, you know, it's getting to the truth of something, especially in venture capital, where you're going to change the way things are done, you know, with these gadgets, with computers, with, you know, rockets and so on, you're going to go to a new generation of things.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  So it hasn't been done before. And the financial people, you've got ten engineers in front of you who can do it. There is one who'll succeed, nine who's going to fail, and you have to pick, you have to pick the thinking that's going to succeed, you know, I mean, it's not, it's not the money, and it's not the technology, it's the mind of the driver who say, no, let's go to the right, let's not go to the left, you know, I mean, Patton

• 44:21Speaker 01

  was extraordinary in that, I mean, he was a remote viewer. He demonstrated that again and again, you know, there are some interesting books that I've collected from some of his lieutenants, you know, who.

• 44:36Joe Rogan?

  You would also have to consider that's an extraordinary state of mind, to be a general in a world war, and the consequences of everything you do, and what is at stake in this war, is got to be a state of mind that's very, very unusual, with so many consequences and so much pressure, that it probably makes some signals more clear, if you have that ability to perceive them, because you are, you must be, in a heightened state of awareness.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:09Joe Rogan?

  Because just the consequences of your life.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  But you you also have to be detached. I mean, you know, eventually he's going to go to the battlefield where the, you know, there are bodies of soldiers who've been killed, there are burning tanks and everything else. They show that in the movie. I mean, that's where he's supposed to go.

• 45:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  But, you know, his, his mind is at a different level.

• 45:39Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Uh, and.

• 45:41Joe Rogan?

  When did they first start researching this? And when did they believe that this was an ability that some people had?

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Oh, uh, you know, way back in antiquity.

• 45:53Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, and, you know, they, they had, uh, seers that, uh, the, the, the, the king would go consult, uh, uh, whether he, um, uh, he should engage in, in a war with.

• 46:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  You know, they had, the, the Greeks had the Pythia, you know, who was, um, a, a woman who, they, they had an area, a volcanic area where there were fumes coming out of the earth, you know, that was supposed to be one of the doors to the underworld and so on. And there was a, a special, uh, cult around that, that place. And, uh, you know, the, the, the, the king would, would go there before a great decision and, and would, would ask the message from, you know, the, the underworld or the message from the, from

• 46:57Speaker 01

  the mind of the woman who was interpreting what was coming from the earth. So that has been, you know, regarded as, um.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  You know, Hitler, Adolf Hitler, was

• 47:18Speaker 01

  in his

• 47:21Speaker 01

  before the war, you know, as a, when he got to be the leader of Germany, he exhibited and he very much believed in those those powers. I think he got to the point where he trusted it too much. He started making mistakes and that could be used against him.

• 47:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, he was also doing a lot of drugs.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  You know, you have to get the ego out of the way. And of course, that's the hardest thing, you know, for us to do.

• 47:51Joe Rogan?

  Especially to a narcissist dictator who's on drugs.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 47:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 47:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the always the age old problem with Sears. Like, how do you know who's a charlatan and who's real? Because there's always a bunch of fake psychics. There's fake palm readers, fake tarot card readers, people that are just con artists, that are just trying to swindle people out of money. But that doesn't discount the possibility that some people have

• 48:22Joe Rogan?

  these bizarre abilities. And that is something that people have sort of recognized forever. But it's always been dismissed, especially in this modern day reductionist culture that likes to only look at things that are, you know, tried, true, proven, agreed upon, you know, and then trust the science. Like this, this concept that...

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Well, I think as, you know,

• 48:49Speaker 01

  in science, I mean, the burden is on you as a scientist to come up with an experiment that will discriminate between the random things.

• 48:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  And, you know, will give you, will give you guides to, you know...

• 49:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think that's what they've done with the telepathy tapes. And I'm hoping the success of this, and then they're going to do a whole series on it, where they're doing a documentary and they're showing all the footage. So you're going to be able to see it for yourself. And I'm, I'm hoping that this... This stops the ridicule. Because there's a bunch of scientists, and I think this is with the UAP topic as well, the UFO topic as well. I think there's a bunch of people that don't want to consider it because there's too much bullshit out there and there's too much of a possibility that you could look like a fool. And to a very respected scientist, whose research is very important, as you were talking about with the IBM thing, where there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are

• 49:49Joe Rogan?

  dedicated towards these, why would you risk all that and the credibility of all that on this nonsense about people seeing things with their brain in a closed room, finding coordinates, pretending they're on top of a mountain, all that kind of stuff?

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Well, fortunately, certainly, in California, there are people who can take risk, you know, and put a few million dollars behind, behind something.

• 50:22Joe Rogan?

  Shout out Stanford.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Yep. And, you know, as you know, I come from France, and in France, it's very, very hard to do that, you know, because the system is very structured and very conventional and so on. Even though France has had some of the brightest people in that kind of research.

• 50:42Joe Rogan?

  So it's just a cultural limitation of the culture?

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, sort of, everything has to be rational.

• 50:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. America's a little more chaotic.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  And they also, as you know, France has had, for a long time, has had a project on UFOs, a official project, and that takes reports from the public and they investigate them and they, it's a very small team, but they have access to all the resources of French research, so they can, you know, they can get the weather people, they can get the, you know, the air force, they can get the radar people, they can get all of that. So they can tap into the resources of a lot of different departments of the government. So it's very powerful. So they will explain, they find a rational explanation for about 95% of all the reports.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Which is true. I agree with that. You know, I've been there.

• 51:47Joe Rogan?

  So it's about ninety-five percent you could explain away.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  It's not hoaxes. Those are, you know, people who really think that they've seen something unusual.

• 51:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  But what they, what was unusual to them may have been the moon rising through the fog and it looks like an elongated disk and then after a while it's, things change and so on and then.

• 52:12Joe Rogan?

  Bald lightning. Yeah, there's a few things.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  They, they really think they've seen a flying saucer coming over. There are about two hundred or two hundred and fifty possible physical things that would, that really could surprise you, you know, that are unusual, that would create conditions under which a normal person would think that they are in the presence of a UFO. Then, you know, what's interesting is the other five percent.

• 52:42Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  The other five percent is in your face. You know, I have

• 52:49Speaker 01

  reports of something that moved like the Tic Tac, you know, from the, the French Air Force in the fifties. There was a, a, a French jet over Morocco that was flying and there was a radar tracking the jet and I, I had the, the reports from the French Air Force with the chart. And that the thing he was chasing went up, you know, all in a fraction of a second went to the top of the atmosphere. You know, just like the, the Nimitz case. So those things are not new. I mean, they've, they are in the files. If you take the trouble to look at the files.

• 53:31Joe Rogan?

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• 54:54Joe Rogan?

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• 55:35Joe Rogan?

  Or get the Premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month with promo code ROGEN. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. And the file's far back enough in history that it's impossible to imagine human technology achieving these things.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Well, especially in the 50s.

• 55:57Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, the Kenneth Arnold case.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  They had gone into space.

• 56:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a bunch of cases that... Rule out the possibility of human technology when you're talking about people using propeller planes and seeing these things. We were at a time technologically where it's not possible to imagine that someone had gone that far beyond us. Now we are in that time where you see things, you go, well, how much of that is some sort of top secret government program, some military program, and they have drones that can move at extraordinary speeds with some undisclosed propulsion system. That's possible today, at least theoretically. It's, you know, we entertain those ideas. But back then, this is one of the most fascinating

• 56:43Joe Rogan?

  things. I told you last night that I consumed three of your books in the last six months. And there was this series of three that you did that had a bunch of different encounters. Not just, right now I'm on the Invisible College, but the last ones that I read were the ones on various contacts that people have had and the similarity of these stories. And they go way back, way back, way back before it was sort of a cultural artifact. Like, right now, I think, in people's minds, the gray aliens are so iconic, a flying saucer like that, that's a copy of the sport model from Bob Lazar's adventures. These things

• 57:27Joe Rogan?

  are in pop culture to the point where you almost would expect to see them. You know, you look for them. If you see something, you could imagine that you could twist it up in your mind and make it like that. But the problem is these stories go way before that. They're too similar. They go a long, long way back, and there's too many that are very, very similar to what we're talking about today, to the point where

• 58:00Joe Rogan?

  A rational person would have to say, maybe there's something more to this. What do you got there?

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I brought you this, it's a token, it's not a coin, it's a token from Burgundy in France, from the, you know, a few centuries ago. The Duke of Burgundy was under attack. There was a lot of turmoil in French politics and the king was fighting. The noble, the great nobility and so on was in cahoots to get rid of the king and so on. And they were going to be attacked. And he needed money to raise an army.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  And he appealed to people in Burgundy to send him money. And this was a token that they would, the king, the duke, you know, would give people who had given him money to raise this army. And on the face of it is this disc.

• 59:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  That's holding up, that's protecting the land from forces above. You know, there are all these arrows raining down on the land. And the land is protected by this flying disc. So it doesn't mean that they had seen a flying saucer at that time. But the idea has always been there of, you know, disc-like objects that were, that were not meteors, that were not, you know, all the natural explanation, that were real discs. You find that in legends, you find that in, you know, in history.

• 59:54Joe Rogan?

  Jamie, can you see if you could find an image of this? We could show people? You found it? Yeah, that's it.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Yep. Yes.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  And you see, it's protecting the land and it's hovering in the sky, protecting it from all the thunder clouds above. Well, you know, there were a few of those things in in history. And, you know, I've, as you know, I've collected those with, I have with a group of.

• 1:00:27Joe Rogan?

  Couldn't that be interpreted as a shield?

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Um, well, it it is shown as a as a shield, you know, that's going to stop all those arrows.

• 1:00:37Joe Rogan?

  Right, but but that's what they used to stop arrows back then. They used a shield.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:00:42Joe Rogan?

  So that doesn't that just make, I mean, that doesn't seem to me to be a UFO. It seems to me to be a shield that they would protect.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Yes, but it's it's also, you know, it's not exactly the shape of a, you know, of a of a shield. Most shields are, you know, more oblong, but some of them are round. But it's the the point is it's hovering in the sky, protecting the land underneath.

• 1:01:11Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, okay.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:01:15Joe Rogan?

  I think some of the more compelling stuff is like the stuff in the ancient Hindu scripts, the the vimanas and all these different flying crafts that people described. But they've always been a thing that people have described.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  And and we've been able to trace it to actual investigations or actual records. Because of course, when people described something like that, especially if there was some sort of being associated with it.

• 1:01:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  You know, it could be the devil, it could be that.

• 1:01:46Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  So they had to see a priest and confess and and, you know, and they were in trouble. If you reported that thing, most, most of the time you'd be in trouble.

• 1:01:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  It couldn't be a normal thing. So.

• 1:02:01Joe Rogan?

  You'd be a heretic.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Today, they just, you know, they just fire you from wherever you work.

• 1:02:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, probably, or think maybe you're a kook and then stop you from.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  At least they don't burn you alive anymore.

• 1:02:13Joe Rogan?

  And people, yeah, that's lucky. But people do have a fear, a legitimate fear of being ridiculed. And that could stop their ability to be promoted within whatever organization they're in. That you don't want to think, oh, there's kooky Bob over there who thinks the aliens are watching us.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  The best cases I get are from executives in Silicon Valley whose family has seen something or who have seen something. And they've described, you know, frankly UFOs to me. And

• 1:02:48Joe Rogan?

  Here's another one.

• 1:02:48Speaker 03

  Different coin from a year later.

• 1:02:50Joe Rogan?

  So that looks way different.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:02:53Joe Rogan?

  So that coin is much more compelling because that looks like something flying in the sky above the city. That doesn't look like a shield at all. And what is that peak at the bottom of it?

• 1:03:01Speaker 03

  It's the same thing, whatever.

• 1:03:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's very different.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  You can tell that those things have been in the culture.

• 1:03:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  You know, but they've sort of repressed in the culture. And the anthropologists don't want to look at that, you know, they don't know.

• 1:03:17Joe Rogan?

  There's a really old painting, like a biblical painting of these people that look like they're flying around and like seated in these crafts.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:29Joe Rogan?

  They're in the sky. I've never seen any sort of a conventional explanation of what is that artist depicting?

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  So usually the explanation, when you read what the historians have said, it's supposed to be, you know, some god or some higher level entity that's coming to protect people and so on. But when you look at the detail, I mean, it really looks like a machine. It really looks mechanical.

• 1:04:02Joe Rogan?

  See if you can find that image, Jamie. You know the one I'm talking about, right?

• 1:04:05Speaker 03

  I guess it's this one.

• 1:04:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's exactly it. Thank you.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  But we wanted to

• 1:04:08Joe Rogan?

  Like the one in the lower right, well, both of them, but the lower like, what is that? That looks like a craft. It looks like someone seated in a craft.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  It's, you know, an envoy from God or an angel who's been sent. But the problem with those is that the painting, you know, it may relate to something that was written in the third century. The painting is a 16th century painting.

• 1:04:34Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  So we didn't look at that that much. I mean, it's interesting from a, like the one with the virgin with the, you know. So it may be that the artist was witness to something and he wanted to memorialize it. And he put it in his painting. But it's not tied to the time of the virgin.

• 1:04:59Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right. They just added it in there.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  We can't, uh...

• 1:05:03Joe Rogan?

  What is that supposed to be in the background?

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  We stayed away from that. We, we wanted to go to records of somebody having actually testified that he saw something or she saw something.

• 1:05:15Joe Rogan?

  Right, not just artwork.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:17Joe Rogan?

  Um, but it just is very bizarre that this artwork continually depicts people in crafts. And look, what is that thing flying around?

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  And...

• 1:05:29Joe Rogan?

  Like, what the hell?

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  And there is a communication with the man.

• 1:05:32Joe Rogan?

  Who's looking up at it?

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  He's looking at it and, and there is a sense of, that he's actually seeing it and having a sense of what it is.

• 1:05:41Joe Rogan?

  It's like an Easter egg that someone put into the painting.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  So, this may be that the artist sort of, uh, you know, put that in as a, as a side. Of course, you know, the main theme is the virgin and the child.

• 1:05:58Joe Rogan?

  What's that one over there, Jamie, in the second row that says, "Inside Ancient"? Yeah, that one. What the hell is that? That's what really freaks me out, is the paintings on cave walls that look just like grays.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Well...

• 1:06:13Joe Rogan?

  These bizarre paintings of things that just look like they are people wearing helmets.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  And, uh, the most interesting to me come from the Sahara. You know, the, I have friends who are anthropologists who worked with the UN in, in, in Africa and so on, and in parts, in, in part of the Sahara. And the, the, what they, one theory they have is that the, the culture that eventually moved to Egypt came from the Sahara. So I say, "Well, Sahara is just sand." Well, it's just sand today. But we know that at one time it was flourishing. There were forests, there was water.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  In fact, there is water, but it's underground water. It's a large amount of underground water. There was a sea there at one time. And so, uh, there...

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  There probably was an earlier civilization and some of those come from the Tacili. The Tacili is a region in the Sahara where there are a lot of those representations. So there were a lot of people living there at one time and they painted that on the rocks.

• 1:07:37Joe Rogan?

  See if you can find some of those, Jamie. Yeah, and you see similar things that indigenous people in Australia have painted. Similar thi- it's all over the world.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:49Joe Rogan?

  In completely separate environments, very similar features in these cave paintings.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  And, well, I think archaeologists wouldn't disagree with that, I think. They would say, but the problem is that we don't correlate it. I mean, they didn't write anything.

• 1:08:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  You know, the...

• 1:08:12Joe Rogan?

  It's open to interpretation.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  We don't have a good correlation, so we have to keep, keep looking for that. But, but that's, you know, that's fascinating. But in, in our book, we made the rule that, number one, we don't want isolated human figures, even with, you know, suits and so on. We, we really want a, a device, a flying device, you know. Otherwise you have, you know, you could fill forty books with images of strange creatures.

• 1:08:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  The, I mean, what are the things that people see, you know, in, around the ranch now, you know, in...

• 1:08:55Joe Rogan?

  Skinwalker?

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  In Utah.

• 1:08:56Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  And in, you know, Arizona and in all of that. So have to be careful, you know, on, on the boundaries of, of those things.

• 1:09:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  But we, we wanted to... Get to a place where there was testimony about somebody seeing a flying disc that was strange to them in their culture. And remember, in those cultures, those were agricultural cultures. So with people who were used to interpreting the weather, looking at the phases of the moon, looking at the rising time of the sun, and all that was important for their agriculture. So they knew their environment very well, better than we do as people living in cities.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  So we can take that, to some extent, that has a scientific value, especially when you can build a model of a number of those across different centuries. But in that book, we were careful to break the book into into sections corresponding to different evolution of the culture, explaining first, a couple of pages, what was happening during that time in terms of new inventions, like when the telescope was invented, when certain things were discovered and so on.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  So we were careful to put it in context with every reinterpreting the description by the witness in the context that was appropriate.

• 1:10:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, it was very thorough and very objective, which is what I really enjoyed about it, where you were very clear what we absolutely knew and very clear what could be nonsense and myth. And that one of the things that keeps occurring over and over again is these similar stories. The stories are really similar, from the 1700s to the 1800s, into the 20th century. And then, again, now, it gets more muddy because now you have a bunch of people that realize that there's value in concocting a story and then talking about it and selling a book. And I think there's people that are grifters.

• 1:11:29Joe Rogan?

  And I think they, you know, I probably had a few of them on. They are capitalizing on this desire that people have for stories.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Also now, we think that the government has the answer.

• 1:11:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  So, people spend their time,

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  you know, writing to different agencies and listening, and listening to reports from pilots, which is fine, of course, and people in the military, people in the intelligence community. But, and those are very valuable because they have, now they have instruments, you know, to actually measure what they see on the, an F-18 and so on. And they are covered by radar and by AWACS and everything else. So, we can rely on that. So, scientists and, you know, many people like the numerical aspect of it. I don't do that, you know. I mean, I, I don't pretend to have access to that. I mean, we had access under Bigelow, you know, and under Baas,

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  to some of that, you know, including some of the classified things that had happened. But, there is a much richer pool of data, which is, you know, a friend tells me about a sighting in, in the country somewhere. I can go there, I can go see the people, and I can find out, you know, exactly what happened. And, I continue to do that. And that's most of my data. And it's, it's ten times bigger than the stuff they talk about from the Pentagon, you know. I mean, it's, it's, it's real data from, and I don't need to have a clearance to go see the, the people and sit down.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  If I'm lucky, they'll invite me for lunch and, you know, I can talk to the kids, I can talk to the wife, I can talk to the, the people who took care of the cattle, and they'll, they'll tell me. And, that's where most of my information is really coming from. And, it's not, you know, it's just very much in your face. And, it's consistent.

• 1:13:47Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:13Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  It's a tough question. You know, many of the descriptions have to do with discs.

• 1:16:07Joe Rogan?

  And eggs as well, right?

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Different sizes, you know, some of them are very large. Some, a number of descriptions have to do with, you know, for a long time with cigar shaped objects, you know, cylindrical and rounded at the end, sometimes with what people describe as windows that may just be openings with light, you know, in the side, side of it. Doesn't have to be what we think of as, as a window. And then you have some irregular shapes, you know, just balls of light.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  That physicists interpret as maybe plasma, but plasma doesn't survive in the air, you know, shouldn't survive in the air more than a minute maybe, but people have, you know, seen some of those things for minutes and longer, you know, long enough to take pictures of it, so on, and it's not necessarily glowing, it's not necessarily luminous the way, you know, plasma would be. So, we don't, we don't know what they are, and they've been reported all over, all over the world.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Again, there are, you know, paintings of, of that kind of thing from the 18th century or the 17th century.

• 1:17:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  So, that, that I've collected and published. So, we have these different categories.

• 1:17:44Joe Rogan?

  What are the most compelling paintings that we could, we could find right now from like the 1700s or 1800s?

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  I, I think there is, there is a beautiful, beautiful painting of hills and three blue spheres that are not moving, that seem to be suspended in the air.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Very distinct blue, blue spheres that were seen and somebody, you know, recorded it and somebody did a painting of the scene. Those are things that people wanted to remember because they knew it was.

• 1:18:31Joe Rogan?

  And what year was this painting from?

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't remember the year. I couldn't tell you.

• 1:18:36Joe Rogan?

  But it's a very old painting.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Sixteenth, seventeenth century.

• 1:18:39Joe Rogan?

  Um, do you know the name of it? Like, so Jamie could try to find it online?

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I could, I could send you the picture.

• 1:18:46Joe Rogan?

  Okay, okay. Um, so there's also a bunch of depictions of egg-shaped crafts.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:18:56Joe Rogan?

  This is very common as well, right?

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:18:59Joe Rogan?

  And, um, the, the couple that you had in one of your books from, was it the mining people? From, um, was it California or was it, was it Nevada?

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  I, I, uh, wrote a, a book, um,

• 1:19:16Joe Rogan?

  The Shapens?

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  With Parola Harris called Trinity about an egg-shaped object that happened in nineteen forty-five near, uh, White Sands. That, and now we have re-investigated it. The first book was criticized and, you know, appropriately by someone who said, I hadn't gone to enough of the written records. Well, now we've done that. So we've republished the book. It's called Trinity. And it, it covers three cases. In all three cases, the object is egg-shaped, the size of a, a medium-sized truck. Okay? Uh, it would fit in this room.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  You know, it would be about the size of this room. Um, then there is a case in Socorro and there is a case in Valencole.

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  Sokoro and Valensol, and people have concentrated on the first one, you know, the one that, because it's, it's two years before Roswell, and there were witnesses there, you know, in Roswell, there were no witnesses, there were people who came later, who found the stuff, and they reconstructed the story, and it's a very interesting story. But at Trinity, they saw it arrive, and they saw it crash, and they were there for ten days afterwards, watching the recovery. So we, and they went inside, one of them went inside, and his father went inside also. So we have a very rich description of that.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  And where is it in the literature? Nowhere. I mean, I know Paula Harris found this, did research for four years on that, and then told me about it, and then we did another four years of research together at the site, and we found a lot of correlations. But they are, the Sokoro case, and the Valensol case-

• 1:21:18Joe Rogan?

  Could you explain, tell me, before we move on to that, those other cases, what correlations did you find?

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  Well, the, in all three cases, it's an egg-shaped object. In all three cases, there are traces that could be seen, could be described, could be analyzed. In all three cases, beings are short, they are, you know, about three feet, three and a half feet. They breathe air. And what kind of extraterrestrial is that, that comes here and breathes the air? Okay, we don't go, if we go to the moon, we're not going to breathe the air-

• 1:22:01Joe Rogan?

  How do we know that it breathes at all? How do, how do we know that these things breathe at all?

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  Well, they had no breathing-

• 1:22:08Joe Rogan?

  Right, but how do we even know that they're-

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  ... functioning normally-

• 1:22:11Joe Rogan?

  Biological.

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  They had two eyes, a small nose, a small mouth.

• 1:22:16Joe Rogan?

  But couldn't they possibly be some sort of a creation? Instead of being a biological entity, couldn't they be some sort of artificial life?

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  So, I, I've, I've asked Gary Nolan about that, you know, I mean, I'm not a biologist, and-

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  I think it would be known if somebody had created a meta-human.

• 1:22:45Joe Rogan?

  I don't mean somebody, I mean another life form from somewhere else.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  There were stories of the Russians actually thinking about creating a dwarf, you know, human to pilot their ships because they didn't expect to have the energy, you know, to have a big rocket. It turned out they found that Korolev.

• 1:23:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so they were trying to get tiny people to power their ships because they were lighter?

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  But the CIA was looking into rumors that the Russians in the 50s, you know, before Sputnik, that the Russians were trying to create a humanoid that could pilot a spaceship.

• 1:23:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, I know that the Russians, there was some talk of them trying to create a human ape hybrid. They were trying to do something with chimpanzees and try to create some sort of a human chimpanzee hybrid for war, which is a terrifying thought.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:53Joe Rogan?

  That they would, first of all, if they were successful, how terrifying would that be? But just that they were interested in doing that, creating a race of chimpanzee human warriors.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  There was no, to my knowledge, there hasn't been any correlation of that. And the creatures that are described in Socorro in New Mexico and in Valenciennes in France. So those are three cases that I've been very involved in from the beginning, from day one.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  Involve creatures that are about, you know, three feet tall, that breathe our air. Hairless? Recognize our signals, you know, communicate with us. Uh huh. In funny ways, even mentally. I mean, the witnesses describe getting images in their minds and so on. In all three cases. And the, uh, what's interesting is, you know, people can argue about Trinity all they want. Like they argue about Roswell, but the, the case in Socorro and the case in, in France, in Valenciennes, were investigated by governments, you know, not by, uh, you know, the local UFO group.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Although the local UFO group did a good job in all those cases. But they were, in Socorro, it was first they, you know, the local police, local policemen, this saw the craft and the beings and described what happened. They, he was terrified, but you know, when the thing took off. Uh, he thought it was something to do with some new gadget or some work in the desert. Or it's an area that's still in the same state today. I've gone back there with Dr. Heineck's son, you know. Oh, wow. With Paul Heineck, uh, a few months ago. I've gone several, several times there.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  And so after the police, uh, turned out the FBI was in town on another case. They had no jurisdiction in New Mexico for that particular case. It wasn't a federal case, but they helped preserve the, the traces, you know, the FBI way. And, uh, the local police was happy to have them there. And, and then there was the, the state police came in and did an investigation. And then people from the base, you know, uh, uh, came in with, with experts in, uh, in explosives, experts in recovery of, uh, of weapons and, and rockets and so on.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  Because they thought it might be something that had come from. You know, from the Trinity range that was out of its way. Right. And had crashed near Socorro, in which case they might have responsibility, including financial responsibility. If something was destroyed or whatever. So they, this was very serious. I have the whole file. Okay, it's a big file. Right. Nobody's looking at it. I mean, the investigation in Washington now, they are saying. We're going to look at the cases of the last twelve months. Well, what kind of science is that? Can, can you imagine scientists reading this? And this is the way they are going to solve the UFO problem by, by looking at vague.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  Pictures of lights in the sky for one year. You know, why don't they go back to those records? Those are federal records. Okay, the case in Valence, all five agencies of the French government. So this, this guy was a farmer. He had a field. Where he was growing plants for, to make perfume. So this was high level, you know, expensive crop. This wasn't just, you know, alfalfa or something. And he, he goes there at five o'clock in the morning because. Uh, you know, he wants to do some, to water the, the thing and so on before the sun is, is up.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Because it's going to be very, it's in the south of France, it's going to be very hot. You can't work in the field during the early afternoon. So he wants to be done with it. He sees this contraption, you know, in the middle of the field crushing the, you know, the plants. And so he sneaks in and he's paralyzed. Okay. Now, uh, there is an egg shaped object, just like they want. You know, at Trinity, just like they want in Socorro. It's the size of a, a mid-sized truck. There are two creatures in front of it, a human, you know, a human looking, two eyes and.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  Breathing air, they look at him sort of amused. And one of them has something on his belt, he takes out, points, pointed at him, and that's when he's paralyzed. Now, he's not, you know, as you know, I'm not a doctor, but I've gone to doctors about what kind of paralysis is that, where you can stand up and watch something, you just can't move. They said, well, there is a type of paralysis that will just inhibit the motor, you know, motor nerves, where you, but you'll still be up and aware. You're not going to fall down, you know, in a heap.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  And from there, he sees them going back inside the thing, the thing takes off. It takes off like a shot out of a gun, and it vanishes in midair. Okay, now, he goes to see the gendarmes. This man is fairly wealthy. He owns quite a bit of, you know, several fields, expensive crops. His wife is the mayor of the town. The gendarmes are going to be very careful with him because he's also from the Resistance in World War II. When he was young, he joined the Resistance,

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  and the Resistance in that part of France fought in the, in the Alps against the Germans. And, you know, they were regarded as heroes of World War II. And so the gendarmes are very careful with him. There are some things he's not going to tell the gendarmes because he thinks, and I, I went there. He didn't want to talk to anybody from Paris. He didn't want to be on TV. He, he wanted to concentrate on his experience because he thought there was going to be something else. And he was aware of some of his buddies.

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  Now, this is a part of France where people talk, but they have secrets too. I mean, historically, you know.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  There are things like that in the US, you know, parts where people are not going to talk to strangers.

• 1:31:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  The only reason I could go there was that I was, I went there with a lady who was from Paris, was from, with the government. She was with the Gauls government. She had the rank of ambassador and she had a vacation home there. So we went there for three days and she knew everybody there. And he told us what he thought might happen again. And he, so he didn't want the gendarmes next in with what he was doing.

• 1:31:42Joe Rogan?

  Why did he think that something was gonna happen again?

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  Um, they evidently, and you know, he swore us to secrecy about what it was, but evidently there was communication with the beings when, when he was there.

• 1:31:59Joe Rogan?

  And so these beings just tiny, look like people? Did they have different features than us? Or was it just human?

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  They are just like the ones at Trinity and like the ones at Sokoro. So in that book you have actually two, two and three, you have seven creatures that are humanoid, that breathe our air, that seem to understand us, you know, the visual, you know, there is visual contact. Well, we can have visual contact with animals. I mean, that doesn't mean they are human or meta-human. But the, uh, there, there is messages that come through all of that, that the witnesses are reluctant to talk about in all three cases.

• 1:32:51Speaker 01

  So in Sokoro, finally, the, the air force went there. They threw the air force out because the air force said, well, you know, it's just a gadget, you know, and from, from the, from the base. And that was stupid. So they finally sent Dr. Heineck there. And Dr. Heineck asked me to organize the files that were coming. I was at Northwestern at the time, you know, working, working. I had done my PhD already and I was on the staff of the computing center. And we had a small team trying to help, you know, free, trying to help Heineck keep the files together.

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  So we, we were, you know, in communication with him the whole time. And then I, I put the files together and I have a file. You know, this is the official file.

• 1:33:47Joe Rogan?

  So these people were reluctant to talk about what these creatures were communicating with them. But did they talk about it at all?

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  It was, it was very personal.

• 1:33:58Joe Rogan?

  Very personal?

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. It, there, there had been a communication that transcended their life. There was something else, something outside. So you could almost call it a sort of a religious feeling, but it wasn't, it, it wasn't about divinity or God specifically, but it was about, you know, the other side of life. Some, a bigger meaning for life.

• 1:34:35Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  That's, that's their interpretation. It may not be, there may be other things that they are trying to communicate.

• 1:34:46Joe Rogan?

  But it was very profound for them?

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:34:49Joe Rogan?

  And that all three cases had similar stories in that regard?

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  And in all three cases, there are traces that were measured. There were, you know.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  There is technology of sorts. And in the case of Socorro, people came up with all kinds of ideas that maybe it was a balloon. You know, I mean, a special balloon, right? There were only 12 of them in the world and so on. Well, in the book, people haven't noticed it. But in the book, I was able to solve that problem. Because I found a transcript of a conversation with a man who was head of a motor pool at the, on the, you know, army range in, at White Sands.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  And he had given his team some instructions on, you know, how to make sure that the motor pool was working really well. Because White Sands is so big. When people went home, they could get lost, you know, at White Sands. And then how are you going to find them? I mean, there are tracks, but there is no paved road at the time. How are you going to, you know, find them? So you can launch a helicopter the next day looking for, you know, a lost car somewhere with a family in it. But, so he made rules that they had to call periodically to report where they were

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  when they went home, you know, 50 miles away across the desert. So, so they could find them if there was something wrong with the car. He's driving home with his family. This is after the Socorro thing is done. You know, they are all interrogating. Lani Zamora, the cop who was driving that thing. And he sees a light over the mountains in the southwest, towards Mexico. But it's still, you know, it's still in New Mexico, but it's in that direction.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  A light that's not a star, it's really bright. And the light gets brighter and brighter. And his car dies. Now, he's head of a motor pool, okay, for the base. Everybody reports to him and they have all the, you know, all the army cars and trucks and everything else, the half-tracks. Um, so, uh, he looks at that thing, uh, he tries to call his team. The radio doesn't work. Radio should work. Radio doesn't work. And the, the thing gets very bright and then it recedes.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  It goes, it goes away the way it apparently came in. We don't know if it came in or if it just got bright. Okay, uh, the, the car starts. He goes home and then the next day he goes to his shop. He gets his staff together. He says, "You guys are going to take this car apart. I want to see every screw and every piece of it and every level and everything, and the seats and so on. I want to see all of that on the floor. And you're going to test it and you're going to tell me what's changed or if anything, how that car stopped in the middle of a desert." And they couldn't find anything.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  And that report was an official report, okay? That was never published. And it, it nails the whole thing, you know, that this was not a balloon. This was not an hallucination. The, the, the patrolman wasn't drunk like they accused him of or making up a story and so on. The, uh, Lani Zamora, when Dr. Heineck, uh, interrogated him, he said he wanted to talk to a priest and confess to a priest before he would talk to Dr. Heineck, okay? That's the kind of man he was. And they essentially destroyed this guy because they thought it was,

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  you know, bad reputation for the town of Sokoro. Terrorists wouldn't come there because they'd be afraid of strange things flying. And the air force said, "Well, it's a one-witness case." You know, there's this patrolman who saw this. There were 12 witnesses.

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  There was a guy who was driving on the main road, the same road where the patrolman had been driving, who the thing passed right over his car. He thought he was going to be driven off the road by this big oval thing that just went right over the roof of a car into the desert. Well, he called the police and reported it. There is a written report. He signed that report. We know his name.

• 1:40:11Joe Rogan?

  Without him having any knowledge of what happened?

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  That's right. I mean, he saw this some...

• 1:40:19Joe Rogan?

  Independently?

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  You know, one of your guys was trying to drive me off the road.

• 1:40:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  There were several people on the road on the other side of this little, you know, desert thing that, you know, when it rains, the water rains all over the place, washes everything out, just sand and rocks. But on the other side, there is a main road. Several people on the road saw the thing take off and reported it because it was just so strange. So the Air Force put that aside. They neglected to, you know, this was... And they just kept saying it was a one-witness case. It wasn't. Most of those cases where they say it was one witness and you have to look at the... You have to look for the other guys.

• 1:41:09Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  And again, you know, I brought you something. Can I tell you about it?

• 1:41:16Joe Rogan?

  Sure. What'd you bring?

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  So this is something that... The case was so interesting that Dr. Nolan and I and a couple of friends wrote it up and published it in the prime astronautics review in the world. Okay, it's a... So after... It took a couple of years for them to agree to look at it and so on, to look at the analysis. This happened in a suburb of Omaha, Nebraska, but on the Iowa side. There is this town, a suburb with a park.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  This is about a week before Christmas in 1977. Okay? People are there having a good time in the park in the evening. It's getting, you know, it's getting dark. And I want to make sure I'm, yeah. They see something in the sky that looks like one of those boxes where, you know, it looks like a round box with lights around it. And the lights are going around, sort of.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  And it's pretty high and it's flying over the town. And then a mass of steel, liquid steel, falls in the park. It falls on the levee in the park. There is about a half a ton of it. Liquid, glowing. It has nothing, no business being there. So you have this mass of metal. Obviously, they call the-

• 1:43:18Joe Rogan?

  Glowing, you say it's molten? This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high. It's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank.

• 1:44:02Joe Rogan?

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• 1:44:20Joe Rogan?

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• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  The weather is freezing. We know the temperature and everything else. It's freezing. The grass is on fire around it. They call the firemen, the firemen call the police. The police gets there, and the firemen get there. They stop the fire. The fire is, you know, would have died by itself. There's no problem there. They take pictures of the thing glowing. I have the pictures. Infrared, you know, polaroid pictures of the thing glowing in the grass, burning. I mean, liquid.

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  And it's going to stay liquid for a couple of hours, and it cools down gradually. And then people take pieces of it as souvenirs. So I have the pieces of it, and there they are. Now, there was analysis done by two labs. Obviously, the question is, where did that come from? I mean, you know. And there is chromium, titanium, and iron, which you can find in ordinary steel. But this isn't really... The composition isn't exactly what you'd expect industrial steel to be.

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  So one of the chemical analyses is done at the lab, you know, for a...

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  For industrial steel. The investigators called the company. The company says, yes, we make, you know, steel. So we have furnaces, but we empty the furnaces. This is over a weekend. The factory is closed. There would be nobody there, you know, and certainly no liquid, no liquid steel in our factory.

• 1:47:01Joe Rogan?

  It's only a half a ton of it.

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  They have, yeah.

• 1:47:05Joe Rogan?

  This is a half a ton that they found sitting there.

• 1:47:08Speaker 01

  So, um, so then they, they called the Strategic Air Command because B-52s fly over that town. A B-52 is a big thing. And the people saw something in the sky. So, you know, maybe it was, the Air Force, you know, politely laughs at them and says, you know, we carry atom bombs, but we don't carry furnaces with molten steel. Okay, so go look something, somewhere else. And they say, good luck. By the way, this is a way you could test it. This is a way, I mean, the Air Force, we think, people think, number one, there is nothing in the blue book files worth looking at. That's not true.

• 1:47:53Speaker 01

  I, I spent four years, you know, Dr. Heineck had copies of all the files. The files were not classified. There were a few random cases that were classified for other reasons, not because of a UFO, because of where it was or so, whatever, that I didn't have access to. I was just a graduate student, you know, PhD. Um, I went through, we convinced, Dr. Heineck and I convinced the Air Force to do a computer file of everything they had about UFOs. Because before then, it was just paper files all over the place. And if they were challenged by Carl Sagan or somebody like that at the time, they wouldn't

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  be able to provide good statistics. So they agreed for me to get the files and redo, punch them into punch cards, take it to a computer, redo the statistics, looking at their explanation and then my explanation.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  For the, for the cases. I did the whole, the whole thing. Thousands and thousands of cases. They were right that majority were explainable. What we were looking for were the ones that were not explainable. This one cannot be explained. And there are enough of those, there are hundreds of those that scientists could have looked at. No, I, I went through the Air Force Base with my French passport. At the time, I wasn't a citizen, you know. You had to wait five years before you could apply for American citizenship. So I was working, I had a small contract

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  that was completely, you know, unclassified to recalibrate the statistics of the Blue Book Files. So I had access to essentially all the Blue Book Files. But I went into the base with a clearance for three days with Dr. Heineck to go to the

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  the, the division that was looking at, at the UFOs and spend those three days with Major Quintanilla and his staff going through the files. And they, they had lots of remains of things and stones and strange metals and so on, which at the end of the project, all that was thrown away. So this is, oh, everything is going on now. This is for you, by the way.

• 1:50:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  This is for your, your special collection of weird things.

• 1:50:36Joe Rogan?

  Stuff, yeah.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  Now, this is, essentially it's steel. There we go.

• 1:50:43Joe Rogan?

  So that's the area where the, the mass of steel.

• 1:50:46Speaker 01

  Steel glowing.

• 1:50:51Joe Rogan?

  And so this steel you can make on Earth.

• 1:50:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:50:56Joe Rogan?

  It's a composite of a bunch of different materials.

• 1:51:00Speaker 01

  It's not exactly the steel that you'd use in construction or in, but it is essentially steel. And so we, I gave my samples to, you know, to Stanford so that we could redo the analysis and not the chemical analysis, but the isotope analysis. So Dr. Nolan and I took it to the lab. Dr. Nolan had two series of instruments that could do the analysis. We did both and we confirmed essentially this. So there was no special change in the isotope ratios.

• 1:51:44Speaker 01

  If there was, that would indicate that somebody had manipulated the isotopes, which is not a hoax. Then, you know, you know for sure it's not a hoax because that's, you know, that's high caliber scientific laboratory work and you need special, you know, instrument experts to interpret it.

• 1:52:09Joe Rogan?

  Right, but that wasn't the case.

• 1:52:11Speaker 01

  No, no, it's normal.

• 1:52:12Joe Rogan?

  The isotopes hadn't been manipulated. Have they found, because I've heard this about Gary Nolan in particular, that they do have samples of things that they can explain?

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  So I gave him essentially all my samples, all the ones that I could relate to reliable cases. Because I don't want to give him junk.

• 1:52:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a lot of junk floating around that people think is strange. And so, yes, we're.

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  Going through all those, you know. And the idea is to publish it as we go, you know, to publish everything as we go. There are some that give the indication of being, but, you know, as always in science, we have to be careful. Our colleagues will say, very good, you know, congratulations, you did that with one instrument. Now you should redo it with a different lab, with a different machine and see what they find. Because Dr. Nolan has, some of those machines are machines that he's invented at Stanford.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  Okay, that, but they are tied to biology. I mean, this is not a biology, this is steel, okay? And this is iron or copper or whatever. So we have to redo it with a different. So in this case, we have redone it with a different line of machines. There is a French machine that costs something like six million dollars. It would fill, you know, half of this room. That's extremely good for testing for isotopes, but only on four different elements.

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  With, with the other machine, the biological machine, we, we get the whole, the whole spectrum. So, except for the, for some of the extreme elements, like radioactive elements and so on.

• 1:54:20Joe Rogan?

  So what samples have they found that have been the most compelling?

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  We're still working on that, you know. But this paper is important, even though we didn't find something out of range. But that's, in a way, that's validation of what you have to do.

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  When somebody presents you with that kind of sample, those are the steps. This is where the science is today. This is what the technology can tell you, okay? So this is sort of a stake in the ground, even though we didn't find ET, okay? Right. But we didn't find ET science. You found physical evidence of something. But we've got the technology now, we know how to do it, you know? One problem we had was that neither one of us is, you know, an expert in materials. We're not experts in steel.

• 1:55:21Speaker 01

  So the people who, this was reviewed by, you know, people who were materials experts. Right, right. And they came back with a whole page of questions. Why didn't you look at this? Why didn't you measure that? So Dr. Nolan, the team had to redo about a year of work before they would accept the paper. So that's what you have to go through before scientists will look at it. Right. But this one, you know, is in the literature, in the scientific literature. It's not in some UFO magazine in New Mexico. And we can, now we have the methodology, we can apply it to the others.

• 1:56:04Speaker 01

  There are some that we've done with one machine where there are indications. Now at Stanford, Stanford, it's funny because you've had three generations of people, you know, at Stanford looking at this, you know, before Dr. Nolan, I was there and I was gathering data and I was using the computer to do statistics and so on. And I worked for Professor Sturrock, who unfortunately died a few months ago at over a hundred, but he was still working in astrophysics.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  And, you know, I was on his astrophysics staff for a couple of years, looking at galaxies, looking at the structure of the sun and looking at certain types of strange stars that had special emissions and so on. So I was his computer guy and we also looked at, you know...

• 1:57:10Speaker 01

  UFO materials, especially a case from Brazil, which he published. And he got financial support to do the isotope analysis. And some of it was arguably different. So we want to redo it. I, you know, when in, he donated all his materials to me, you know, when he retired. So I, I, I have all that and I passed it to Dr. Nolan. So Stanford now has a, is acquiring a reputation as being a UFO analysis place.

• 1:57:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  But it, it went from essentially solar physics and high, very high energy physics, you know, that I was working on with Dr. Sturrock, to me with the computing center and now with Dr. Nolan in the medical school. So we've had, you know, they are, they are in trouble.

• 1:58:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm glad they're willing to do that. I had heard that there was some alloy that was very difficult to comprehend that someone would be able to construct, that it would cost billions of dollars to make this particular type of alloy, that they had discovered something along those lines.

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  Well, there, I've, I've seen those books. I've heard those things on the internet.

• 1:58:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:40Speaker 01

  The question is, you know, scientists will want to look at this. They'll want to know, well, did, how did you do it? How did you prepare the sample?

• 1:58:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  We were given access to a sample that's, that in fact is very strange. And it has different colors on it. It, it fits in the palm of your hand, you know, so it's a significant size. Remember, Dr. Nolan is looking at individual human cells, you know, with his device. Okay. So, you know, anything more than 10 grams, you know, we don't need. I mean, we can work with very little material. Although, of course, we want to do different things with different parts of it.

• 1:59:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  But, but this thing had some very interesting incrustation of some, a red deposit. And all the people who had looked at it, including some official labs and some signed disclaimer saying they would not scrape off the, the interesting deposits that were on it. Well, all of them did, you know. I mean, after signing the thing. By the time it came, it came to me, most of the interesting red stuff had been scraped off. So I don't know what they did.

• 2:00:10Joe Rogan?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, it's good to prepare for the future, but when you start over analyzing what's happening around you, dreaming up every hypothetical situation of what could happen, that's when it gets dangerous. You can start to hyper fixate and stress out and all over things that haven't even happened. That's no good for current you or future you. If you're struggling to stay in the present and out of your head, try talking with a quality therapist from BetterHelp. They have psychologists, family therapists, marriage counselors, social workers, and more.

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• 2:01:21Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high. It's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank. Go to chime.com/rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up.

• 2:02:06Joe Rogan?

  Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime Card, provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details.

• 2:02:21Speaker 01

  You know, so, and I don't know what machine they used. And they didn't publish a paper. It took us four years to publish this paper, okay? The paper came from Stanford with, you know, PhDs, four PhDs writing it. So, that's, you know, the bar is pretty high. If you're going to actually publish this in an international review.

• 2:02:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and with an interesting title, too.

• 2:02:47Speaker 01

  We'll do others, you know, that's, that's the plan.

• 2:02:50Joe Rogan?

  If people want to find this. It says, "Improve instrumental techniques, including isotope analysis, applicable to the characterization of unusual materials with potential relevance to aerospace forensics."

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, he doesn't talk about UFOs.

• 2:03:06Joe Rogan?

  There it is. That's a very tricky way. Relevance to aerospace forensics.

• 2:03:13Speaker 01

  People read between the lines and say, "Ha, ha."

• 2:03:15Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean aerospace? Who's aerospace stuff? This, so this is the question. If these, if these encounters happened, if this egg-shaped craft was real, and if these small, people-like things that breathe air did communicate with people.

• 2:03:33Joe Rogan?

  Where are they from? Is this something that has always been here? Is this something that visits here? Is it something that is here?

• 2:03:41Speaker 01

  So, in the the BASS project of Mr. Begolo, that was funded by the Defense Intelligence Agency, we had a template of things that they, the Pentagon, wanted to to have. And it said, you know, trajectory, composition, luminosity, radiation, and so on. Well, yeah, those are the things that you'd need if you were looking at a Russian aircraft, you know, or you were looking at, you know, the Nimitz thing, whatever it was.

• 2:04:27Speaker 01

  But, you know, is that really relevant? I mean, in science, you don't start from the conclusions. You're going to look at this, and this is not something you've seen before, and you go on from that. You know, in the Nimitz case, we've all seen those photographs. And they are, I've stopped counting how many papers there are from the New York Times on down with the picture of the, you know, the photograph of the, that the F-18 was taking, the pilot took from from the thing. Well, nobody mentions that this isn't a photograph.

• 2:05:11Speaker 01

  People think it's a photograph. So, in the file, there is a memo from the folks at Raytheon. Raytheon makes the device, which is a big, you know, a big thing that you hang under the wing of an F-18 that's going to take these images. It's an image. It's not a photograph. It's looking at into the infrared.

• 2:05:37Speaker 01

  It's not looking at the details, you know, there is a number painted on the thing. It's only to see it, it's looking at the heat. So when this was published by the New York Times, there was a very interesting memo. It was a little touch of humor from Raytheon to the Navy. Saying, you know, those things you've published and, you know. It was taken with one of the devices what we sold you to put under the wing of your aircraft. It's not a camera, it's not a photographic camera. You gave us specifications for what you wanted us to build.

• 2:06:21Speaker 01

  And that's what we gave you. You wanted something that could measure the temperature of the exhaust of an enemy aircraft that you're going to shoot down. You know, the F eighteen goes behind that Russian thing or MiG or whatever. And it, the, the camera is painting the exhaust from the Russian guy. So that you can distinguish between, you know, American Airlines seven twenty three and a MiG.

• 2:06:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:54Speaker 01

  Okay, that's going to help you discriminate what kind of enemy you've got. You know, is it friend or foe first? If it's friend, you peel off and that's fine. If it's, if it's an enemy, you're going to engage the guy. Okay, that's what we gave you. You didn't tell us you wanted a device to track flying saucers because we don't know what flying saucers are. If you do, you know, we'll build one. And that, that, that memo is just so funny, you know, it's, it's an official. You know, I, I make it a little bit funnier than it was, but it, it's an official memo and it's very straightforward.

• 2:07:38Joe Rogan?

  Jamie, see if you could find a good photograph, excuse me, an image of the infrared image that was taken by those F eighteen.

• 2:07:48Speaker 01

  You have an image of a heat source.

• 2:07:50Joe Rogan?

  Yes, of that Tic Tac. And then they also got the video representation, the video of the thing taking off at some extreme. Radar speed. That's it right there. So that's it, that's the image, right?

• 2:08:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the uh.

• 2:08:12Joe Rogan?

  That's the go fat. That's the, the, um, yeah, that's the one.

• 2:08:15Speaker 01

  The radar said that it took off and popped up somewhere else. And so we, we accept that.

• 2:08:24Speaker 01

  At face value because it's in the New York Times and that's, that may be, that may be true.

• 2:08:32Speaker 01

  In, in my work in, in venture capital, you know, I've looked at all kinds of technology. That's around and so I, I go to technology meetings. Those are open, they are not secret or anything. And people talk about their gadget or their device. They are looking for many, you know, to make in, in, in larger quantity. So um, I found myself in a conversation with a guy from one of the aircraft companies in Southern, Southern California. And um, I, I, I asked him, you know, there is, there is a device.

• 2:09:17Speaker 01

  That, that has a funny name.

• 2:09:22Speaker 01

  Like Dispro or something like that. And it's uh, it, it measures.

• 2:09:31Speaker 01

  The, it, it acquires radar signals.

• 2:09:38Speaker 01

  It, I think it's a this, D S P R, you know, uh, for radar. And that, that gadget, I had never heard of it and it's actually not classified. Now it was developed initially so that you could analyze radar data that, that was coming to you. If somebody was painting your aircraft on the radar, you could detect the characteristics of the radar pulse. Why would you want to do that? Well.

• 2:10:17Speaker 01

  You want to do that because and it I said, well, what does it look like? You know, is it classified? He said, no, it's not classified. You know, many airplanes, civilian airplanes can carry it. You put it in the nose of your Piper Cub or whatever, and you fly around Los Angeles, and it will acquire the characteristics of all the radars in the Los Angeles area. Digitally, it's a digital thing. It's a computer essentially that requires radar data. And then it feeds back radar characteristics of any aircraft you want somewhere else.

• 2:11:02Speaker 01

  So if you want your Piper Cub to look like a B-52 20 miles away, you turn on, I'm making it simple, but you program the thing, and you can redirect the defense, the air defense, for example, to another place.

• 2:11:24Joe Rogan?

  So you can send a signal to another place that makes it look like there's a B-52 there?

• 2:11:29Speaker 01

  Yes. Or make it look like you've disappeared in midair and reappeared somewhere else.

• 2:11:36Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 2:11:37Speaker 01

  Digitally, it's a digital radar feedback device that once you know the characteristics of the radars that are painting you, you can, I mean, obviously, suppose you want to travel to Moscow over the Iron Curtain without being shot down by the Soviet Air Force. You'd want to redirect all the radars. I mean, you're on 20 radars.

• 2:12:09Joe Rogan?

  Right. One of the things that they said about the Tic Tac was that when they encountered it, it was somehow or another blocking their detection signals.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I don't know that this derprum, I don't know how far it's gotten in the last thirty years.

• 2:12:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:12:32Speaker 01

  The guy I was talking to was telling me about technology of thirty years ago.

• 2:12:36Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:12:37Speaker 01

  It blew my mind. I didn't know you could do that.

• 2:12:40Joe Rogan?

  Right. I didn't know until just now.

• 2:12:42Speaker 01

  You could just paint. So that's, um, I'm not sure where the technology is and who is cleared for that. You know, pilots are cleared for certain things, obviously for all their equipment on board. They are not necessarily cleared for. So you have to ask, in the case of the Nimitz, what clearances did these pilots we see on TV, what clearances did they have? Now, did they have the electronic countermeasure clearance? They don't necessarily have it. I mean, some of them didn't have the camera. Some of those who are on TV today talking about these images,

• 2:13:27Speaker 01

  the image didn't come from them. It came from one of their buddies.

• 2:13:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:13:33Speaker 01

  You know, who came afterwards.

• 2:13:35Joe Rogan?

  There's also the question of where they take place. This, I've always questioned where they take place because they take place in the same areas where the United States always runs military training exercises. They take place off of San Diego, off of the East Coast, all these areas where we know that they run exercises all the time, restricted airspace. If you were gonna test equipment.

• 2:14:00Speaker 01

  I think this was in international waters.

• 2:14:02Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Yeah, it was. But it was still off the coast of San Diego where they do these things, which is why the fighter pilots were there in the first place.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  I mean, the Russians could fly there.

• 2:14:11Joe Rogan?

  Right, not that area, but isn't the area off the East Coast where some of those things restricted?

• 2:14:16Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:14:18Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:14:18Speaker 01

  They were around Long Island.

• 2:14:20Joe Rogan?

  China's electronic war gadget.

• 2:14:21Speaker 01

  Long Island is restricted.

• 2:14:23Joe Rogan?

  Uh, says China's electronic war gadget turns small drones into flying stadium on radar.

• 2:14:28Speaker 03

  So this is an article from January of this year, and then I'll show you something else I found from in here.

• 2:14:34Joe Rogan?

  Wow, so they can make it look like a flying saucer.

• 2:14:36Speaker 03

  The size of an iPad can make it look like as big as a sports stadium.

• 2:14:38Joe Rogan?

  Whoa, look at this. The effect, similar to a giant flying saucer suddenly materializing in midair would be reminiscent of a scene from a science fiction film, but is achievable according to peer-reviewed paper published on January. Whoa.

• 2:14:50Speaker 03

  They just also, so then the month before that, here's their new stealth fighter that's painted with the stuff he just said that

• 2:14:56Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:14:57Speaker 03

  scatters the frequencies or something.

• 2:14:59Speaker 01

  You know, this isn't my field.

• 2:15:01Joe Rogan?

  That's pretty cool.

• 2:15:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is just something I stumbled across typing in the words he was saying.

• 2:15:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, just pretty cool.

• 2:15:08Speaker 03

  So they're testing this too.

• 2:15:10Joe Rogan?

  What I was getting at was,

• 2:15:14Joe Rogan?

  if you're the United States government, if you're the military, and you have this kind of equipment and you want to test it, what better way than to test it on people that don't know you're testing it on them? Send your fighter jets out there, have them encounter these things, run your, whatever experiment you're doing with making something appear and reappear and take off and come, and give them these signals, give them these disruptive deceptive signals, and see whether or not they... The problem is they had visual confirmation of these things. That's the real problem. The problem is they actually saw these things. Like, the Tic Tac was, they visually saw it for people, right?

• 2:15:55Speaker 01

  I have a colleague in Silicon Valley who's been, had a distinguished army career, and he told me that there were, in fact,

• 2:16:10Speaker 01

  tests of especially nuclear facilities, not necessarily the military, but mostly the military facilities, to test the ability to penetrate the perimeter. So, those flights are not cleared with the people who manage the plant. So, it's either a nuclear plant that makes, you know, fuel for bombs, or it's a base where nuclear weapons are stored, and there are guys around the perimeter with machine guns,

• 2:16:51Speaker 01

  and they are going to, you know, sound an alert if they see something coming over the fence. Well, suppose you come over the fence looking like a flying saucer. Are they going to start shooting or not? Okay.

• 2:17:06Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:17:06Speaker 01

  So, they, you know, he told me that he had actually flown some of those missions.

• 2:17:13Speaker 01

  And I know another member of a Bas team who confirmed that, told me he had been on some of those missions. They make their plane look like, you know, they put lights around it and so that, so it can look like a flying saucer essentially, or look like what a UFO, what would be a UFO to the guard.

• 2:17:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:17:40Speaker 01

  So that the guard is, they want to see if they can penetrate, if you can disguise yourself to the extent that psychologically you can inhibit the reaction of the guards and you can fly over the fence.

• 2:17:54Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:17:55Speaker 01

  Because if you can fly over the fence, you're in.

• 2:17:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:17:58Speaker 01

  You know, you can do a lot of damage.

• 2:17:59Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:18:00Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:18:01Joe Rogan?

  So pretend you're a UFO.

• 2:18:03Speaker 01

  So those, those are, but I don't think they do, they do hundreds of those. I think they probably do it, you know, very carefully at a couple of places, you know.

• 2:18:16Joe Rogan?

  But it's interesting that they have that ability. That's, that, that's fascinating. That throws a lot of this stuff into question, like what are we actually seeing?

• 2:18:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:18:25Joe Rogan?

  But it doesn't explain all these things. And that's the, the problem that I always have is that they, just the abundance of encounters and how similar a lot of them are. And then what it must feel like, I've never had an experience, but what it must feel like to have that experience, that you probably would be very, I wouldn't be reluctant because I'm a known person to talk about silly things. But if you're not, if you're like a serious person, you have some sort of an encounter, I would imagine there's a lot of pressure on you to not tell people. If you're a lawyer, or a doctor, or you're any sort of like respectable person, that's

• 2:19:06Joe Rogan?

  a, a serious individual in whatever you're doing for a career, you don't want people to associate you with nonsense, or think that, oh, maybe Mike is losing his mind.

• 2:19:17Speaker 01

  You can't.

• 2:19:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:19Speaker 01

  Because you have people relying on your ability to.

• 2:19:21Joe Rogan?

  So maybe you tell your friends, maybe you tell your mother, maybe you tell your, your wife, but you probably don't tell the press.

• 2:19:29Joe Rogan?

  If you're, if you're a scientist, I would imagine you would have to have like significant evidence where you stick your neck out. Or you're a person like yourself that's been very brave for all these years. Because you were talking about this stuff in the 1960s, which is pretty crazy.

• 2:19:43Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I had seen Saint-Chalier flying saucer when I was 15, so...

• 2:19:52Joe Rogan?

  Can you describe it?

• 2:19:53Speaker 01

  I was in, I grew up in a town that's about 45 minutes out of Paris, on the road to Normandy. And my father was a judge in that, in that town for a while. And a beautiful afternoon in, in the summer, I don't know the exact date, it would have been late June or July, 55, 1955. So I was about 15, 16. I was still in school and then the following year I was going to go to the university.

• 2:20:34Speaker 01

  And the, my, my mother called, called me. I was working with my father, who was relaxing, doing some furniture. And I was helping him. And I heard my, my mother call from the yard. And I went down and saw an object that was absolutely a saucer. It looked like it was over the steeple of the, there's a cathedral there. And we were, you know, about half a kilometer away from it.

• 2:21:12Speaker 01

  And it was just suspended, it was silver, and there was a clear dome on top of it. And we both saw that. It was very clear.

• 2:21:28Speaker 01

  And then the next day, I asked a friend of mine from school, who was, you know, we were the two good students in physics and so on. And I told him I had seen that. And he said he had looked at it with binoculars. He had seen it too. And he had looked at it with binoculars, and I got him to draw it. And he drew exactly what I had seen, essentially a lens-shaped thing with a dome on, a clear dome on top.

• 2:21:58Joe Rogan?

  How long did you see it for?

• 2:22:00Speaker 01

  I saw it for less than a minute. I think I went inside. I don't remember what I did.

• 2:22:11Speaker 01

  I logically, I probably went inside to get my father so that he could, he could see it.

• 2:22:18Joe Rogan?

  And then when he came out, it was gone?

• 2:22:20Speaker 01

  He, well, he didn't even come out. He said it was probably one of the new, the new planes that were flying around. Because this was a time when the, the meteors and, you know, the early jets were being tried and they were training pilots with them and so on. And both for civil aviation and for, for the air force in France. So, um, he said, well, let's wait, you know, maybe this will be disclosed at some point. So I didn't say anything about it. Also, you know, the son of a judge, a family of a judge isn't supposed to see strange things in, in the air over the town.

• 2:23:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:23:05Speaker 01

  So it was sensitive.

• 2:23:09Joe Rogan?

  What year was this? When you were fifteen? How old are you now?

• 2:23:13Speaker 01

  It, it was nineteen fifty-five.

• 2:23:15Joe Rogan?

  Nineteen fifty-five, so back then.

• 2:23:17Speaker 01

  I was fifteen, sixteen.

• 2:23:19Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so we could also apply that, like. If it was a jet, it would probably be very loud.

• 2:23:25Speaker 01

  Well, and also it wouldn't just stand there.

• 2:23:27Joe Rogan?

  Right, it wouldn't be able to just sit there. Was this thing quiet?

• 2:23:31Speaker 01

  After that, you know, I understood that it was... After that, I worked at Paris Observatory. After I had my degree in astronomy, tracking satellites. We tracked the very early satellites. And we were government, you know, office, so people were writing to us with what they had seen. And most of it, we could explain. For one thing, they were seeing Echo, and they were seeing some of the Russian rockets, you know. And so we would write back, I mean, we had to write back, you know, to French citizens.

• 2:24:12Speaker 01

  I had a card with a French flag on it, and, you know, we were, we were serving the population. So we would explain those things, pretty much the way they do now, you know. You've seen the moon rising through the fog, or you've seen satellite, you know, so much Alpha 23. And, but then there were cases where just like that, where they, they saw something we could not explain. But then we would tell them, but we wouldn't publish it. We wouldn't send it anywhere.

• 2:24:49Speaker 01

  For one thing, it wasn't our job. You know, our job was tracking satellites.

• 2:24:55Joe Rogan?

  Right, but that one experience that you had when you were 15 is what ignited your interest in this for so many years. Yeah. Well, if you hadn't been doing, I mean, the thing that's very important about people like yourself is that you're so careful in how you document these things and in the conclusions that you draw. Because I think this field of UFO study is filled with so many people that claim to have answers, claim to know things, and this is going to happen, and this is coming, and this is, this is, disclosure is imminent, and this... And that's not, it never comes true. It's always, you're just left waiting for some new evidence that supposedly they have.

• 2:25:37Joe Rogan?

  And this is the more frustrating aspects of it. Like when talking to Christopher Mellon, he's telling me there's high-resolution photographs and video and... How about show me? Show me some stuff. Show me something. Because as a person that had, I wasn't when I was fifteen, I didn't see anything. So I don't have that experience that you have. I just have this fascination with it, but also tempered by a little bit of cynicism. Because there's so much malarkey that's attached to this subject.

• 2:26:08Speaker 01

  Well, and, and some of it is, you know, some of it is legitimate.

• 2:26:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:16Speaker 01

  And I think ufologists in general, you know, they want disclosure, disclosure, disclosure. But we don't know.

• 2:26:25Speaker 01

  You know, I'm very respectful of, you know, when I had the clearances. I was just very respectful of those clearances because there are people who know what's on the other side of that, you know. There was one case in, in the Air Force files that was classified. It was marked in the index with a star. And I'm punching the card and I put an asterisk there. And I, I, I had to ask Dr. Heinecke, you know, what happened? Can you tell me what happened there? And he said, yeah, I can, you know, there was enough time that I, I can tell you.

• 2:27:10Speaker 01

  This was, this came from a, a woman in Alaska called the Air Force. Because she saw what she thought was a flying saucer, certainly something that should not have been there. It was dark on the ground, but the sky was still light. And there was definitely, I don't know, a light that looked like it was under power that was flying.

• 2:27:40Speaker 01

  West. Now, west of Alaska, you know, there's a coralline peninsula and there's a Soviet Union.

• 2:27:52Speaker 01

  So she thought it was a UFO. So it was reported as a UFO, but it was, it was classified and it was called unidentified. Well, you know, that was an inside joke. It was a U-2.

• 2:28:13Speaker 01

  But this was at sunset and the U-2 was illuminated by the sun. I mean, U-2 is painted such a way that it shouldn't be visible from, but there are some, you know, conditions where you're going to see it. And so it was classified and if you, if you had the clearance, you would read that it was unidentified. It would be listed in the statistics as unidentified.

• 2:28:46Joe Rogan?

  But it was actually a U-2.

• 2:28:47Speaker 01

  Exactly what it was from the beginning.

• 2:28:49Joe Rogan?

  Interesting. So some things are listed as unidentified because it's so classified. Yeah, that makes sense.

• 2:28:56Speaker 01

  I have no problem with that.

• 2:28:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:58Speaker 01

  But, you know, tell me, if you ask me to write a computer program about it, you know, tell me if it's, if it's worth my time or not. I mean.

• 2:29:08Joe Rogan?

  What was your take on the Ryan Graves stuff? Like Ryan Graves and the fighter pilots that started seeing these squares within a sphere?

• 2:29:19Speaker 01

  To me, that's still a question and the people I talk to are still wondering, you know, what is that? Um, it, the, the, there are, um, the, the, the strange physical systems that are floating around to gather faint signals, and they have very strange shapes, okay? So it, it could be, those are balloons within balloons with little things attached to them,

• 2:29:58Speaker 01

  going back to the days of, you know, nineteen forty-seven, looking for atomic explosions, Russian, you know? That's the way the Russian tests, atomic tests were detected first, was with balloons that had large antennas, you know, that were.

• 2:30:23Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm. The thing about the Ryan Graves stuff, though, is the physical characteristics, like, and the way it moves, that these things were able to stay stationary in a hundred-plus knot winds.

• 2:30:33Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't, I have not.

• 2:30:37Joe Rogan?

  You don't know, yeah.

• 2:30:38Speaker 01

  I have not researched it, and I wouldn't be the guy to research it.

• 2:30:42Joe Rogan?

  If, if we are being visited, how many different civilizations do you think are visiting us? Because if there's all these different characteristics that these beings have, if some of them look like tall, albino, almost like human beings with large eyes, some of them look like the grays, some of them look like dwarfs.

• 2:31:05Speaker 01

  Um, yes, and that's an embarrassment of riches in a way.

• 2:31:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:31:13Speaker 01

  Uh, the, um, of course, that opens a question, you know, is it a simulation? And Rieswan Verk has published a couple of books about that. He's a friend of ours and, and.

• 2:31:32Speaker 01

  Dr. Nolan, and we've had many conversations about that. You know, we could be living in a simulation of.

• 2:31:39Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:31:40Speaker 01

  Where the people running the simulation might send whatever they want. I mean, it would be like a video game.

• 2:31:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:31:48Speaker 01

  All of a sudden, you've got a new, but that's not completely. You can only go so far. In fact, first reaction is, well, you know, but look at the detail. We can't reproduce a detail on that scale. That's true, but you know, wait 10 years and we'll be able to do it. I mean.

• 2:32:11Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:32:12Speaker 01

  Quantum computing and all that, so. Uh, so, uh, that's not a good argument. It's sort of, you know, it's an okay argument now, but it doesn't stand the test. Um, the, the other argument is, uh, you know, who would be doing it and why? I mean, that's true that there are some strange things. I mean, the fact that the moon is exactly the size to hide the sun.

• 2:32:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:39Speaker 01

  It's exactly.

• 2:32:39Joe Rogan?

  Perfectly.

• 2:32:40Speaker 01

  You know, 30 minutes of arc.

• 2:32:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:43Speaker 01

  Like the sun. So it gives us total eclipses and it gives us a measuring tool. And the, the, the Greeks knew roughly how far the sun was with respect to the moon. They knew the, the ratio of the distances. They didn't get the exact distance. But they, they already knew that because they had done the math, you know, the, the geometry. So that's pretty strange, you know.

• 2:33:12Joe Rogan?

  And it also protects our environment by keeping us stable.

• 2:33:15Speaker 01

  Things on earth that, you know, seem to be accidental, that are just right for us to exist.

• 2:33:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:23Speaker 01

  So, well.

• 2:33:27Speaker 01

  But I I'm not completely happy with that that explanation.

• 2:33:33Joe Rogan?

  Nor am I. I'm not happy with it, but it's very compelling. The the what's fascinating to me is that it is inevitable. That if technology advances the way it is currently, within maybe even our lifetime, um, or within another lifetime, another hundred years, we will most certainly have an artificial reality that's you cannot discern, indiscernible between that and the reality we currently experience.

• 2:34:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:34:01Joe Rogan?

  So if that's inevitable, you would kind of assume that perhaps it's already taken place. And if it had already taken place, it would probably be very similar to what we're experiencing. Whereas enough of it seems fake, and enough of it seems scripted, enough of it seems very coincidental, how things line up, that it almost does seem like a simulation sometimes.

• 2:34:28Speaker 01

  Well, but there are also things that are strange, but that we could research, that we are doing a very bad job of researching. There was, I I got a phone call a couple of years ago from a a woman who had been a student at a school, a high-level preparatory, you know, school on on the east coast. And I had published a book in this, in the eighties, early eighties, about UFOs. And she was head of the lecture bureau for the kids. And she thought it would be fun to bring me there to talk about flying saucers, because

• 2:35:12Speaker 01

  it would excite the students and so on.

• 2:35:14Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:35:15Speaker 01

  So so I went there and I gave, uh, you know, a a lecture at the level of, you know, the but those are, those were very bright students, you know, it was sort of an elite girl's school. And then, you know, she drove me back to the airport and I went home. Never heard from her again.

• 2:35:38Speaker 01

  Uh, what, thirty-five years pass and she calls me. And she says, you may not remember me, but, you know, I I was the one who brought you to give the lecture at the the school.

• 2:35:56Speaker 01

  Do you ever come to Washington? And I said, I do remember you. And I go to Washington a couple of times a year. And she says, well, I'd like to tell you about an experience I had. And next time you come to Washington, ring me up. And when you're done with your meetings, you know, I'll pick you up and I'll drive you to Dallas Airport. And so I do that. I call her. She picks me up in a very nice Mercedes. And she says, I've never forgotten your lecture.

• 2:36:39Speaker 01

  I saw something here on the way to the airport, where we're passing now, that I'd like to describe to you, because it reminded me of your lecture. And I had never heard that anywhere else.

• 2:36:56Speaker 01

  You know, there are trees along the freeway on both sides, beautiful. The freeway was dark and the sky was still blue. She said, I saw an elongated object, which was like, to me, twice a 747. With what people would probably think of as portholes or windows. They were just lights along the thing. The thing was elongated. And it was moving slowly, minding its own business. You know, it must be on ten radars, including the airport. And it was moving over.

• 2:37:40Speaker 01

  And then the sky was perfectly clear, no clouds, no fog. It blended with the sky. I could just see the outline still. It didn't speed up. I could see the lights, and I could see the lights fading. And then there was nothing there. And I remember in your lecture in the eighties, you talked about things that could be going into another dimension. Okay? But I had, I thought that was interesting. And, you know, the kids thought it was an interesting idea.

• 2:38:20Speaker 01

  And yeah, in science, you know, people, you talk about different dimensions and physics and so on, but, but I had never seen it mentioned anywhere else, and there it was. You know, this thing faded from our universe, and I have no idea where it went, but it didn't speed up. So, um. Now, they have radar data on it? I said, "Thank you very much, can I publish that?" It said, "No way, I'm the, I'm the CEO of an international, uh, commercial company. We work in several countries, and I can't have my name associated with it."

• 2:39:00Speaker 01

  Now, I've had probably a dozen cases like that, with people from Silicon Valley, people, you know, they, uh, they report on Wall Street about how their company is doing, they, they don't want a reporter saying, "Are you the same guy who sees flying saucers?" Right. You know, "You're the CEO of this such-and-such microchip company." Right. "In San Jose," you know, can, uh, so, um, you know, they don't report it, but they want, they want me or some of my colleagues to know about it, because they know it could contribute to the research we're doing. Right. And, uh, you know, Dr. Nolan has had that, that experience as well, as you know,

• 2:39:44Speaker 01

  and, uh, but it's not going to the Air Force, it's not going to the newspapers, it's not going to the New York Times. Now, if those things can, you know, just jump out of our universe and go somewhere else, that rewrites the whole thing, you know? We're not talking about propulsion, the way we think about propulsion, we're not talking about... You know, environmental, we're not talking the passage of time. You know, in the same way that, you know, I would experience with my watch and so on. We're talking about something, the rules are different.

• 2:40:29Speaker 01

  And we need to go up and start thinking along those rules. Or at least the possibility of those rules. It doesn't prove that there is another universe five minutes ahead of us, but there could be. And then all the papers that they publish saying there couldn't be flying saucers because there isn't life, you know, closer than, you know, 2,000 light years from us. And they would, it would take, at the speed of light, it would take 2,000 years to come here. Well, there could be another universe five minutes ahead of us. It would take them five minutes to get here, okay?

• 2:41:09Speaker 01

  So that would explain why we have visitations throughout history. And they look the same throughout history. Because, you know, our technology, I mean, this technology of this microphone didn't exist 20 years ago.

• 2:41:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:41:26Speaker 01

  You know, it's a new microphone. And there were no microphones, you know, 200 years ago, there were no microphones at all. So, um, how can those things look the same? How can we compare them to something somebody saw in the 18th century?

• 2:41:44Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:41:45Speaker 01

  That shouldn't happen, you know, unless your technology is stuck.

• 2:41:50Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right. Yeah, that is a fascinating aspect of it, right? You would expect that if you thought about how fast our technology evolves, technology from 1947 from some other planet would be exponentially more advanced than what we experienced in 47. Be just based on how our technology evolves.

• 2:42:12Speaker 01

  And you'll have to think, I mean, we think about an aircraft in ways completely different. I mean, there are things that, yes, it started, it came from the Wright brothers and so on. And there were speculation before on how you could fly. But what an aircraft does today is radically different. The whole physics is different.

• 2:42:35Joe Rogan?

  And we're only talking about a hundred and some years ago, which is pretty crazy. You go from this thing that Wilbur and Orwell write, you know, kind of like get it to take some air for a little bit, to the Chinese jet, which is disguising itself from radar and travels at insane speeds. And then the possibility of other propulsion systems that have been kept under wraps.

• 2:42:59Speaker 01

  All to their harrier that stays.

• 2:43:01Joe Rogan?

  Yes, and then lands like that, yeah. No, the, just the technology that we know that we're aware of over the last 200 years is pretty extraordinary. And if you imagine something from somewhere that's had thousands of years to evolve past us.

• 2:43:19Speaker 01

  There are a couple of things I wanted to bring up that are in this, in the book. Well, one is in the book, the other one isn't. What's in the book is I've tried to continue the parapsychology experiments that were done at SRI and now at lots of other places. And I got advice from people who said if you put yourself in some types of conditions, you could try to manifest another form of intelligence or another form of, essentially, an apparition.

• 2:44:02Speaker 01

  It's not necessarily related to UFOs, but if you can do that, that would teach you what you could do also with some of the encounters that people describe, that the witnesses tell me. So if I'm a good scientist, I should put myself in their place first and experience it myself. So I did a couple of sort of mental experiments like that in my home. I was alone at a time in my home, and nothing happened. And then nothing like what I expected happened. And then I was asleep one night,

• 2:44:48Speaker 01

  and all of a sudden I'm propelled outside of my body into another room, and there is an entity there, okay? A massive sort of rectangular mass, you know, entity. Clearly, you know, something that knows where it is and is thinking. I'm terrified, not terrified so much of the entity. It's like a sort of black, you know, rectangle.

• 2:45:26Speaker 01

  But I'm terrified of being outside my body. I know people do experiments with that, and there are people who can do it almost as well. I've never tried to do that, I think, because I've heard, you know, cautions that it's very dangerous because what if you don't find your way back? So I'm terrified. I get, I find myself back in my body. I get, you know, I sit up, completely terrified, crying, screaming, which is not usual.

• 2:46:06Speaker 01

  Because it was just, you know, it really was horrible. Then I rationalize it, you know, and that. The experience wasn't supposed to happen outside of my body. When people describe entities, like Richard Strieber describes it and so on, there is a very strong psychic, you know, impact. But to me, that was, that was very shocking. It hasn't happened before and hasn't happened since. I'm not trying to make it happen, but it, I wanted to flag it and

• 2:46:49Speaker 01

  to get advice mostly from, from other people.

• 2:46:52Joe Rogan?

  Did you feel compelled to try it again?

• 2:46:55Speaker 01

  I, I, I would try it again.

• 2:46:59Joe Rogan?

  But you have not yet?

• 2:47:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:47:00Joe Rogan?

  No, I can understand. It was that terrifying, if you woke up screaming.

• 2:47:04Speaker 01

  I want to get counsel from, you know, my peers.

• 2:47:08Joe Rogan?

  And that, that's like similar to the monolith in 2001, right? Yeah.

• 2:47:14Speaker 01

  Well, you know, there is a scientist I know well in Silicon Valley who also started a number of companies that are publicly traded now, who invented the integrated circuit. His name is Federico Fagin. He's a physicist from Italy with a PhD from Italy. He came to Silicon Valley in the very early days of the transistor, worked with the, the initial teams and those places. And then, you know, there was a problem of how can you pack those things together

• 2:47:58Speaker 01

  in smaller and smaller places? And he's, you know, recognized as the father or one of the two or three people who invented the integrated circuit. So for a long time, he was celebrated in that, that capacity. What he didn't say is that he had seen the design outside of his body one night and that he had had multiple experiences outside of his body.

• 2:48:35Speaker 01

  Now, this is someone, you know, one of the fathers of Silicon Valley. I mean, I recognize him as one of my mentors, you know, in venture capital, in high-technology investment. But now he started to, I mean, he's made enough money that he doesn't care anymore, and he's sort of semi-retiring. He doesn't like what's going on, you know, right now, and is probably going to go back to Europe. But the...

• 2:49:11Speaker 01

  There are a number of people like that whose names are in the Wall Street Journal or in the New York Times, who've achieved something, but they, you find out that they also had, and they experimented with it. In his case, he experimented systematically with, you know, the ability to go out of his body and...

• 2:49:37Joe Rogan?

  And acquire this information from some other source?

• 2:49:41Speaker 01

  Well...

• 2:49:42Joe Rogan?

  Or a vision?

• 2:49:43Speaker 01

  There isn't much... There are a couple of books that mention, you know, steps you can take, but it seems to be pretty much up to the individual. In my case, I certainly wasn't trying to do that. You know, it just, I was precipitated instantly to the place where this being was.

• 2:50:10Speaker 01

  There were also a couple of things that I never wrote about, not that I wanted to hide them or was afraid of them, but I wanted to

• 2:50:24Speaker 01

  understand the context of it before I did. And I talk about it in this book.

• 2:50:35Speaker 01

  In the late seventies, my wife, my first wife, Jeanine, was a psychologist. We bought a place in the country, in Northern California, a place in the Redwood Forest. Because I wanted to re-experience the pleasure of doing astronomy as an amateur, you know, a small telescope, it's one. But I don't care, I want to look at the moon, I want to look at planets, I want to look at magellanic clouds, you know, whatever. And the... So we built this... We had a...

• 2:51:20Speaker 01

  There was a house there, but I built an observatory in the middle of the forest. Our closest neighbor, this is Redwood Forest, you know, and uncluttered and, you know, unspoiled, pretty much inaccessible, you know. If you didn't own the land, you know, you couldn't go cut the trees. So those were... There were some old Redwoods there and some... And the closest neighbor was about three-quarter mile away, three-quarter of a mile away. And I thought, this is going to be like a discontinuity in the forest, and maybe it will attract whatever is out there.

• 2:52:04Speaker 01

  And maybe we'll see UFOs. We never did. We owned the place for eighteen years. We'd go there with our kids and it was wonderful. And... But we went there not every weekend, but pretty much, you know, as much as we could. And then our kids grew up and moved away. We moved back to the city, we sold the place. The last night, of course, we had cleaned the place. We had... We were selling it to friends of ours who were our neighbors, had a winery. They want to... They wanted to expand the land. We had some flat land they wanted to use for the wine, and they wanted a house.

• 2:52:49Speaker 01

  And so... But the last night, everything has been moved out. My wife is still there because we had a car that was going to be... Taken back to the city and she had her car. And she was ready to go. Middle of the night, there's a light. That's.

• 2:53:12Speaker 01

  Filling the, the house. No, by then, there are no curtains, nothing. Filling the house, blue. You know, sort of UV. White, blue, ultraviolet light. Uh, she goes outside. And the, the, the light is making everything clear, the, the forest, everything else. And, uh, and, um, it's moving, it doesn't have a specific shape. You know, it, it's like a mass of light with light all around it. It's going down the driveway, which is a dirt, dirt road to the main road, to the, to the small road.

• 2:53:56Speaker 01

  And it's just moving along politely in front of the ranch. And down, you know, down to the street.

• 2:54:06Speaker 01

  It has no business being there, you know, no sound, it's not a car, it's not a car on fire. It's not, the, the, the, the light, again, everything is, the, all the details are there. You can see the, you know, the grass, you can see the leaves on the trees. And. Why that?

• 2:54:27Joe Rogan?

  Maybe you called for it and it took a long time to get there.

• 2:54:31Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. Or they just wanted to say goodbye.

• 2:54:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, maybe, maybe they were there the whole time and they just didn't want to show themselves. So let's put on a show for Jacques.

• 2:54:41Speaker 01

  There was one time, we used to sleep in the observatory, there was a small bedroom there with old books. That I had collected and she saw, she woke up and she saw a light. That was like what people describe, a small light. She didn't see where it came from or where it went. But it was moving along the, the walls, there were two of them. And then it vanished, you know. Uh, she woke me up, but I, I had not seen it. It was gone by the time I woke.

• 2:55:15Joe Rogan?

  I talked to a man when I went to visit Skinwalker Ranch. There's a few people wanted to talk to us, but then, once we brought the cameras out, only one guy wanted to talk to us. And he was very rational, very normal guy, who lived in a modest home. And he told the story about this ball of light that entered through his home. And it seemed to be somehow or another aware that he was there. He felt like it was, if not a living thing, controlled by something that was alive. And then it went through the walls and disappeared again. Said it was in his home for a few minutes, just moving around.

• 2:55:58Speaker 01

  Well, a- as you know, uh, Mr. Bigelow has done experiments of his own with lights and with, with things like that, putting interesting objects in certain places that are enclosed. And, and seeing if something is going to look around or move them and so on. So, uh, very, you know, very interesting.

• 2:56:25Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's such a fascinating subject. And, uh, like I said, I really appreciate all your years of research and the way you're so measured and so objective in your analysis. It really helps people like myself get at least some sort of an understanding of what's going on.

• 2:56:42Speaker 01

  Well, uh, what's important is to have guidelines, you know, for research.

• 2:56:47Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:56:47Speaker 01

  I, I look to some of the people you have here, you know, who've done some other exploring. And I try to learn from them and sort of refine my, my, my own criteria.

• 2:57:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, thank you very much. Um, and your book, again, uh, One that's available now. This is Forbidden Science VI. This is the sixth of these books. And.

• 2:57:13Speaker 01

  Scattered Castles is a, it's not classified, but it comes from the classified world. It's a repository of classified projects. So if you're cleared at a certain level, you want to know what else is there that you would have access to or where certain things are being sent to you and you're authorized to, you could look up the names of those projects. It wouldn't tell you what the project does unless you're cleared for it, but it would tell you that there is a project.

• 2:57:54Speaker 01

  And so those names of secret projects are picked by a computer. They're random. And I thought this was funny, you know, Scattered Castles is sort of like, you know, all these files about strange UFOs and strange creatures.

• 2:58:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, I can't wait to read it. Thank you so much. Thank you for everything. It was great having dinner with you and Hal put off and everybody else last night as well. So I really appreciate you very much. Thank you.

• 2:58:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:58:26Joe Rogan?

  Bye, everybody. [music]