The Future of Bitcoin w/ Michael Saylor (2024) | EP #92

In this episode, recorded during the 2024 Abundance360 Summit, Peter and Michael discuss why Bitcoin will never fail, how to invest in Bitcoin, and the future of cryptocurrencies. 26:57 | Bitcoin: The Ultimate Store of Value 48:00 | Responsible Wealth Management Strategies 01:16:22 | Bitcoin Halving: What to Expect Michael Saylor is an entrepreneur and business executive. He is the co-founder, former CEO, and executive chairman of MicroStrategy, a company that provides business intelligence, mobile software, and cloud-based services. MicroStrategy is the world's biggest publicly traded corporate owner of Bitcoin, with 214,246 BTC. Learn more about MicroStrategy: https://www.microstrategy.com/ Learn more about Abundance360: https://www.abundance360.com/summit ____________ I only endorse products and services I personally use. To see what they are, please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: Get started with Fountain Life and become the CEO of your health: https://fountainlife.com/peter/ AI-powered precision diagnosis you NEED for a healthy gut: https://www.viome.com/peter ProLon is the first Nutri-technology company to apply breakthrough science to optimize human longevity and optimize longevity and support a healthy life. Get started today with 15% off here: https://prolonlife.com/MOONSHOT _____________ I send weekly emails with the latest insights and trends on today’s and tomorrow’s exponential technologies. Stay ahead of the curve, and sign up now: Tech Blog Get my new Longevity Practices book for free: https://www.diamandis.com/longevity My new book with Salim Ismail, Exponential Organizations 2.0: The New Playbook for 10x Growth and Impact, is now available on Amazon: https://bit.ly/3P3j54J _____________ Connect With Peter: Twitter Instagram Youtube Moonshots Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Subaru. You know that place your mind always wanders to? The lake, the mountains, the homes of the people you love most? The completely redesigned 2026 Subaru Outback is built to help you get there. With legendary capabilities, standard symmetrical all wheel drive, and the confidence to go further. The 2026 Subaru Outback. Love never looked so good. Visit Subaru.com/Outback to learn more.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard? But not the pipeline? That's bull spend. And marketers are calling it out in. Dashboard Confessions.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  My boss asked for results. So I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had. Impressions.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Cut the bull spend. See revenue, not just reach. LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad networks. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 0:56Speaker 03

  Is there a situation or an event that you view that could potentially lead to the collapse of Bitcoin?

• 1:03Speaker 04

  I think the way to understand Bitcoin is everything you learned in economics and about money in your entire life was pseudoscience, you know, and superstitious. So I think all the smart money, all the smart people in the world that don't trust the bank, don't trust the currency, want to keep their money, they're all discovering Bitcoin.

• 1:27Peter Diamandis?

  It's been quite the journey, buddy.

• 1:31Peter Diamandis?

  Been quite the journey.

• 1:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I thought I was just going to retire into obscurity in 2020.

• 1:39Speaker 04

  And then COVID hit. The world turned upside down. Everything stopped. And Bitcoin presented itself.

• 1:47Peter Diamandis?

  You know, what I find fascinating, a lot of people don't know this, is you discovered Bitcoin not in 2010, or 2014, or 2018, but as a result of COVID. I remember being with you in Miami, you were telling the story, I'm going, that's incredible.

• 2:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:07Speaker 04

  I really, I heard about it back eight, nine years earlier. I think I tweeted very famously in 2013 that it was interesting, but I thought it would go the way of online gambling and get banned. And then I forgot that I tweeted that. And then in August of 2020, I tweeted that I bought $250 million of it. And at that time, it didn't occur to me that I was the first person to publicly announce that I'd spent that much money. And then, you know, on my Twitter, or my X account now, I have this phrase, you know, Bitcoin is a swarm of cyber hornets.

• 2:49Speaker 04

  And the cyber hornets were all the people on the internet, like the person that made that video. That was not me. I did not make that video.

• 2:56Peter Diamandis?

  Of course not.

• 2:57Speaker 04

  Like, but they're always doing that. And so one of the hornets scanned every single thing I tweeted in my entire life, and they dredged this up, like, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, you know, look how much money you lost, you could have bought it $100 or something. And I just kind of recycled the Bitcoin trope, which, as I said, everybody gets Bitcoin, the price they deserve.

• 3:18Peter Diamandis?

  That's true. You know, speaking about the ups and downs and so forth, you have extraordinary tolerance for risk and resiliency, I think is the right word. I dredged this up. On the left is an article from 2000, lost $6 billion in a day. And then on the right is, actually, February, that's the wrong date, 2024, not 2000, where you made $700 million in a day.

• 4:04Peter Diamandis?

  ¿Cómo duermes a la noche con ese tipo de fluctuación?

• 4:09Speaker 04

  Tienes que tener una misión, ¿verdad? Tienes que tener una misión en tu vida, así que... No puedes realmente controlar las fluctuaciones en el mercado, puedes controlar tus reacciones a ellos, así que... En este caso en particular, mi punto de vista sobre Bitcoin es que la razón de hacerlo es porque representa libertad y soberanía, verdad, integridad y esperanza para el mundo. Y eso siendo el caso, va a superar a todos nosotros. Así que, ya sabes, estoy pensando que Bitcoin va a seguir largo después de MicroStrategy. Y MicroStrategy, la compañía, probablemente va a seguir largo después de que yo esté fuera.

• 4:51Speaker 04

  Y, ya sabes, mi punto de vista es que si se recuerdan por defender y acelerar la adopción de Bitcoin en todo el mundo, entonces eso ha sido un éxito y no hay nada más.

• 5:06Peter Diamandis?

  Es increíble.

• 5:07Speaker 04

  Y voy a tomar los golpes que vengan o vayan para llegar a ese objetivo final, porque estoy seguro de que no viene sin turbulencia.

• 5:16Peter Diamandis?

  Pero la convicción que tienes que tuvo que te ha guiado consistentemente, ¿verdad? ¿Eso se refiere a la primera principio de la física aquí? De como esto simplemente no va a bajar, va a subir, solo puede haber tantos y así sucesivamente. ¿Es esa primera principio de la física la que te llevó a hacer este compromiso en frente de todos los demás? Preguntando.

• 5:38Speaker 04

  Ya sabes, creo que una de las grandes cosas de MIT es que te enseña a pensar y también te enseña a empezar con los primeros principios. Y la combinación de eso y ingeniería aeronáutica, donde tienes que construir una máquina que volará por el aire o por el espacio combinando, ya sabes, todas las maneras de ingeniería. Creo que eso te hace confiable. Mi primera memoria de MIT fue... Was the materials engineering professor, he walks out and he says, "Here's a tile that just burned off the space shuttle, and NASA doesn't know why it burned off, and we don't know how to fix it. What do you think?"

• 6:20Speaker 04

  And it was eighteen-year-old kids, and we're all sit, five hundred of us, we're sitting in a room, and a guy who's consultant for NASA looks at us, and he says, "You know, NASA doesn't know the solution, but what is the solution?" Everybody looks at each other, and you can see, first we're all like, "Well, did I miss the reading?" Like, was this in a reading? And then you're like, and then you have this dawning, horrifying observation that the answer to this question is not in any book written in the history of the world. And the guy that had, NASA with the original problem, sent it to a professor who knows more than you know, who's telling you he doesn't know the answer, but he's asking you, and so first you're kind of, you're thinking, "I didn't read the reading",

• 7:04Speaker 04

  and then second, you're like scared. And then some kid in the front row raises his hand and says, "Well, have you thought about changing, you know, the lamination on the composites?" And everybody else looks, and they're like, "The professor's gonna call the kid an idiot, right?" And we're all afraid. And he goes, "No, that's a good idea. That's what I thought too, and we tried that, but that didn't work." And then we all go, and then the next kid, you know, raises his hand, and then you think, "I guess they actually expect us to think for ourself." And that was how MIT started, and it just got, it just continued along that line, and so, if anything, when I left school, when I left MIT, my thought was, "You have to work excessively hard,

• 7:47Speaker 04

  don't be afraid of hard work, but you can solve the problem", and that's what they do here.

• 7:53Peter Diamandis?

  We were classmates together in Unified Engineering, which is probably one of the toughest courses there. The only way we could get through it was by working in teams on problem sets. I think I probably cheated off your problem sets more than in the way Rav.

• 8:14Speaker 04

  You're too kind.

• 8:16Speaker 04

  Let's talk about Bitcoin. Actually, I want to talk about abundance, Pete. I have one observation, which is the whole essence of Bitcoin is about creating perfect money and the discovery of what we call "digital scarcity", as a commodity basis for sound money. And another one of the tropes in the community is when money is abundant, everything else is scarce. And when money is scarce, everything else in the society is abundant.

• 8:52Peter Diamandis?

  What's the logic behind that?

• 8:55Speaker 04

  If you go to Zimbabwe, or you go to Venezuela, or you go to any country going through hyperinflation, when they print the currency, the currency collapses. As the currency collapses, everyone in the economy doesn't want to take the currency anymore. And you get ripped back to Stone Age barter. And so, like in Nigeria, this week, the Naira went from 400 to the dollar, to 1600 to the dollar. So, in an economy where the currency... I mean, that's a 75% currency debasement in a week. When that happens, and I see you in Nigeria, and I want to buy your house, you know, next year, well, the issue is, well, with what?

• 9:40Speaker 04

  And what will it be worth next year? You'll buy it today, or you won't buy it at all. How do I sign a 12-month contract if the money's going to be worthless in nine months? So, there are no term contracts. You know, how do I trade with you if you have to trade with someone else and the supply chain is 18 months long? When the currency unwinds, and the assets unwind, the supply chains break. When the supply chains break, specialization of labor breaks down, the entire economy breaks down. Eventually, everyone has to grow their own food, right? You want abundance. You don't actually grow your own food in your backyard, right? Productivity drops by a factor of 100 to 1,000

• 10:23Speaker 04

  if you can't solve this coincidence-of-ones problem. So, you need sound money, and it needs to work across time and space. And the currencies that we use as a medium of exchange, they might be tradable over parts of space. Right now, by the way, it's probably illegal to actually pay someone in dollar in Nigeria.

• 10:44Peter Diamandis?

  Really?

• 10:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:45Peter Diamandis?

  Like so? Just currency controls?

• 10:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, capital control. You see capital controls all over the world, especially when the currencies collapse, the capital controls go in place. So you can't trade money or you can't trade the currency across borders. And of course, you certainly can't trade the currency with your future self 10 years from now. And how do you even trade a currency? You know, in collapsing countries, you'll find nobody wants to sign a three-year contract because the local currency is not going to be worth the same amount in three years. So you have a hard time trading in time with counterparties or in space. And so the key to abundance is fixing the money problem.

• 11:29Peter Diamandis?

  So you have this insight about, you know, digital currency, digital property. How long did it take you from studying this idea to making the decision to buy 250 million worth of Bitcoin?

• 11:46Speaker 04

  I started thinking about it, I guess, late March, April. It took about eight weeks before I... Four to eight weeks of constant thinking before I came to the conclusion it was a good idea. And it was probably, you know, for me to make the decision, I had made the decision personally by late May. I bought $175 million of Bitcoin in late May of 2020.

• 12:15Peter Diamandis?

  Personally?

• 12:15Speaker 04

  Personally, but that was just me negotiating with myself. And I guess I started probably late March, early April. So that's six weeks to get there. And then we have a public company. So for a public company to do something, the officers have to buy in, the outside directors have to buy in, the accountants, the lawyers have to buy in.

• 12:37Peter Diamandis?

  So I want to take us there, right? One of your board members, one of your outside board members, great guy, Rick is here with us today, I'll call him out. But you walk in. What was the process of getting a public board?

• 12:53Peter Diamandis?

  To do this.

• 12:54Speaker 04

  Well, in that case, I actually pulled the three most compelling videos on Bitcoin off of YouTube, you know, and Andreas Antonopoulos overview of Bitcoin, a debate by Eric Voorhees and Peter Schiff over Bitcoin versus fiat currency as money, probably some other background on Bitcoin. I put those three together, it was probably three hours of watching. I included some articles, some short articles, maybe by some of the Bitcoin OGs. I sent the package off to each board member. I said, I got some homework for you. It's probably going to

• 13:38Speaker 04

  take three to five hours for you to read through all this. Read through all of it, and then I want to meet with you. And then I set up one-on-ones with each one of them. And so I met with each one individually. I answered their questions. Then after that, we had a group meeting. Then after that, we broke into committees to study different aspects, the accounting, the disclosures, the whatever. And so it was a group process. And of course, the CFO and the general counsel at the time were also heavily involved in that.

• 14:09Peter Diamandis?

  Did they threaten to resign?

• 14:11Speaker 04

  No.

• 14:12Peter Diamandis?

  Okay.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  It was never a question of do it or don't do it. It was an observation that the world had come to a grinding halt. We had $500 million yielding 0% interest. We were under, our stock had hit $90 a share. The enterprise value of the company was about $60 a share. $60 a share, you know where the stock is right now. And we had been competing with Microsoft for about a decade. And for all of those of you who compete with Microsoft, you have an idea of what that's like. They have Every company on earth as their customer and they can bundle your product into their whatever.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  So it's not easy competing against Microsoft. We had experience and we are under pressure from our shareholders. You know, it's like you have half of the market cap of the company is cash. You're earning 0% interest. You're not beating the cost of capital. The cost of capital is the S and P return. So anybody looks at this says, if you're not getting 8, 9, 10% on the capital, you should give it back to us so we can invest it. And so we'd reached a point where the company was looking at a fast death. We just sell the company and call it a day. Or a slow death, we keep the cash and we, and the stock is dead money. And that means the stock options are dead money.

• 15:41Speaker 04

  And that was the time when it used to be employees work for you because they liked the community and the schools and their home. And maybe they were loyal to you because they saw you every day in the office. But think about what happened in the second quarter of 2020 when nobody came to the office. And they could change jobs and go work for Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, or Google without moving. All you do is just repath your Zoom account. And so all of a sudden you're staring at big tech. You know, the big tech companies more powerful than most countries and getting more powerful. And you've lost the human connection.

• 16:24Speaker 04

  They don't have to move to San Francisco. They can simply take a job. And nobody ever got hired by big tech for less money than they're making working for you. So from our point of view.

• 16:39Peter Diamandis?

  You were on the precipice of a serious.

• 16:41Speaker 04

  It's like sell the company or just watch all your employees dwindle. You're going to get boiled off. And after the, after the good employees leave, you know, the product will gradually deteriorate. You know, and, and you're competing against a digital monopoly that has more power than all but four countries on earth. And so. We either do that, or do that, or we take a risk. And so, we were basically at a point where, maybe we should take a risk. Now, having said all that, what really happened there is, we deliberated. It took a long time to deliberate, a lot of education. And at the end of the day, we ended up announcing that we were gonna do a Dutch auction,

• 17:25Speaker 04

  and buy back 250 million dollars of the stock at a premium. Coincidental with the purchase of Bitcoin. So, we didn't just take that risk. We basically said, "We're gonna take the company on a path you may not agree with, but we'll buy you out." And so, we were prepared to give up half... I had to basically give up, pay 250 million dollars for the right to buy 250 million dollars of Bitcoin in August of 2020. Right? That's the price we paid. That Dutch auction, the stock was about 121, 122. We offered to buy all our shareholders out at 140. We gave them 20 days to think about it. We bought the Bitcoin.

• 18:09Speaker 04

  No company had ever bought that much Bitcoin. And by the way, you know, following that, only Block and Tesla did it afterwards, but it was a very rare thing to do. Of course, Bitcoin cooperated by immediately trading down. We bought it, we bought it at 11,800, and it traded down to 9,800 or something. So, I was looking like a genius again. Buying the top. The Dutch auction ran, but the stock traded above the 140 price after a day or two. Everyone that didn't like the idea just traded out at one, above 140. We had 75 million dollars tendered. We bought those shares at 140.

• 18:51Speaker 04

  We had 175 million dollars left, and we bought Bitcoin with that. And then, and so, we had basically transformed ourselves into a company with Bitcoin as a treasury reserve asset through that capital markets activity, you know? And it was in a partnership with the outside investors. When you're a public company, you don't just do it. You have to transparently telegraph it.

• 19:13Peter Diamandis?

  I just find it incredible, the, I think the Greek word is the kohannis.

• 19:22Peter Diamandis?

  But to take, no, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a action of a leader who's willing to take a big risk that put the company on its trajectory because it's so easy to ride a company to the ground. It's so easy just to do what everybody expected you to do. I'm curious, how many folks here in the room own Bitcoin? Raise your hand high. Okay, so majority of you go home tonight and buy some Bitcoin?

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Good for you.

• 19:48Peter Diamandis?

  Yeah. Everybody, I want to take a short break from our episode to talk about a company that's very important to me and could actually save your life or the life of someone that you love. The company is called Fountain Life and it's a company I started years ago with Tony Robbins and a group of very talented physicians. You know, most of us don't actually know what's going on inside our body. We're all optimists. Until that day where you have a pain in your side, you go to the physician in the emergency room and they say, listen, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you have this stage three or four going on. And, you know, it didn't start that morning. It probably was a problem that's been going on for some

• 20:28Peter Diamandis?

  time, but because we never look, we don't find out. So what we built at Fountain Life was the world's most advanced diagnostic centers. We have four across the US today and we're building 20 around the world. These centers give you a full body MRI, a brain, a brain vasculature, an AI-enabled coronary CT looking for soft plaque, DEXA scan, a GRAIL blood cancer test, a full executive blood workup. It's the most advanced workup you'll ever receive. 150 gigabytes of data that then go to our AIs and our physicians to find any disease at the very beginning when it's solvable. You're going to find

• 21:10Peter Diamandis?

  out eventually. Might as well find out when you can take action. Fountain Life also has an entire side of therapeutics. We look around the world for the most advanced therapeutics that can add 10, 20 health years to your life and we provide them to you at our centers. So if this is of interest to you, please go and check it out. Go to fountainlife.com/peter. When Tony and I wrote our New York Times bestseller, Life Force, we had 30,000 people reached out to us for Fountain Life memberships. If you go to fountainlife.com/peter, we'll put you to the top of the list. Really, it's something that is, for me, one of the most important things I offer my entire

• 21:53Peter Diamandis?

  family, the CEOs of my companies, my friends. It's a chance to really add decades on to our healthy lifespans. Go to fountainlife.com/peter. It's one of the most important things I can offer to you as one of my listeners. All right, let's go back to our episode. So we had Kathy Wood on the stage last year, and she'll be coming back again next year. And Kathy's prediction was, you know, a million to 5 million. And it was a good week, last couple of weeks. And I can understand the decision. Well, let me back up a second. So Block and then Tesla bought Bitcoin in their treasury. I remember you having some

• 22:35Peter Diamandis?

  conversations with Elon about trying to get him to step up even further. Why aren't other companies following suit in a major way? Doesn't, I mean, I think you've made your point extremely well.

• 22:49Speaker 04

  No, I think the primary impediment to corporate adoption by publicly traded companies is that indefinite intangible accounting is toxic to the P and L and to the balance sheet. So no, no company with a healthy business that's fairly valued by the market, or no company run by a management team that doesn't have voting control, would ever adopt indefinite intangible accounting, because what it does is it doesn't just obscure your balance sheet, it also obscures your P and L. And it even, it even mixes investment gains with operating

• 23:31Speaker 04

  gains and investment losses with operating losses. So it, in essence, renders 100 pages of financial irrelevant. And the current accounting is you can't even pro forma it out. So not only does it make all of your, all of your accounting non-comparable across periods, it makes all your accounting non-comparable across competitors. And it also makes it, and it also ties your hands with the ability to explain that. So, so you're not gonna see, you would do it because your choice was a fast death, a slow death. And if, if you're looking at a fast death or a slow death, and if you had voting

• 24:12Speaker 04

  control of the company, and if you tried everything else, then you would do it. So we were a unique company, a unique place. And by the way, I don't think we would have done it if it hadn't been for COVID. If the world had not shut down, I don't think, we needed COVID to hit. You need wars, right? People will say, I don't believe in flying an airplane, and a war hits and they start embracing air power. People will tell you they're not gonna embrace, you know, whatever it is until the war hits. So we had a war, the economy shut down, and then we had the central bank take interest rates to zero. But they didn't just take them to zero.

• 24:56Speaker 04

  They also, you know, we had the head of the central bank give a speech saying, I'm not even thinking about thinking about raising interest rates until the year 2024. So they took them to zero and basically signaled they were going to peg them at zero for four years. Now, that didn't quite happen, right? You know, a lot of banks wished it had happened. I mean, the people that believed it got caught on the wrong side of that trade, and Silicon Valley Bank and the like crashed because they believed what was said. But the point is, there was a crisis, we had a, we had a need, we were a very special company in the right time, at the right place.

• 25:34Peter Diamandis?

  I had dinner with a minister from a Middle Eastern nation, I won't say who. And during dinner, he was convincing me that the US government was gonna shut down Bitcoin.

• 25:51Speaker 04

  When?

• 25:51Peter Diamandis?

  This was...

• 25:55Peter Diamandis?

  ...three months ago.

• 25:56Speaker 04

  Okay. Yeah, well, I think that the biggest challenge of Bitcoin is that the industries refers to it as a cryptocurrency. And oftentimes, people refer to it as a digital currency. And there's a very vocal... A vocal contingent that wants it to be a currency. And the rest of the world doesn't really understand money, so... So that being the case, let's... Let's view this from first principles. Right? Money's economic energy. If you want to store your economic energy, you put it in assets. And the assets have different half-lifes with which they store the energy.

• 26:39Speaker 04

  Any textbook economist will say money is a store of value, medium of exchange, unit of account, and they stop, and they don't really think much beyond that. And then they'll like bark at you that you don't have money because you don't have... This is not good for a medium of exchange. But nobody really thinks about what they just said. So if you thought about it, you would realize that about 120 currencies in the world are mediums of exchange. The peso is a medium of exchange. The naira is a medium of exchange. So weak currencies, the Turkish lira, the Lebanese pound, they're mediums of exchange. You can find a lot of them. The Venezuelan bolivar, medium of exchange.

• 27:21Speaker 04

  But if you go to South America, you'll find that it's not a unit of account. If you go to Argentina, the unit of account is the US dollar. And they think in terms of dollars. So there are only three currencies in the world that are units of account. They're the euro, the dollar, and the CNY. And that... And so, why is that? Because the mediums of exchange are weak currencies inflating at 14% to 24% a year. They're losing their economic energy over three to five years. The half-life of the money in the asset is about five years or less. Sometimes it's only five months. Like in the naira, they lost 75% of their energy last week.

• 28:02Speaker 04

  So the medium of exchange only is dictated by the government as legal tender. Every government that's functional will dictate their currency as a medium of exchange and enforce that.

• 28:18Speaker 04

  The unit of account is generally the dollar, the euro, and currencies pegged to the dollar. You know, and the store of value... Well, nobody in the United States thinks the dollar is a store of value. No rich person. If you look at wealthy people, they would say the store of... If they're really wealthy, if they're billionaires, they own buildings, blocks, huge properties, or they own the Patriots. They own a sports team, a soccer club, or they own a collection of Picassos. That's what the wealthy use as store of value. The middle-class store of value is the Vanguard 500 or S&P Index. It's SPY. It's basically been the...

• 29:03Speaker 04

  Or QQQ. It's basically a diversified portfolio of stocks. And that's been the status quo since 30, 40 years ago, when Bogle did that. So, the world today consists of 120 mediums of exchange, about three, four units of account. No currencies or stores of value. And if you say to someone, "What do you think about Bitcoin as digital currency?" They say, "Well, I think it threatens the dollar. I hate it." If you said, "What do you think about Bitcoin as digital property?" You know, "I'm gonna buy it instead of buying a building in Des Moines." They're like, "Oh, have at it." If you simply conceptualize it as property, which is store of value,

• 29:45Speaker 04

  all of the objections, all of the straw man objections, like, "It's used for money laundering. It's not legal tender. I can't buy coffee with it. It's not fast enough. It's not private enough." All of these things disappear because it's about as stupid as saying to Bob Kraft, "You can't buy a cup of coffee with the New England Patriots by breaking off some, you know, one of your tight ends." And "You can't buy a cup of coffee with your building in Boston." You know, so of course I can't. You can't buy a cup of coffee with part of a Picasso, the lower-left corner, either. But, you know, wealthy people have been using them as a store of value and as money for 500 years.

• 30:28Peter Diamandis?

  Let's talk about real estate as a store of value. It too can sublimate.

• 30:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, when you say...

• 30:39Peter Diamandis?

  I mean...

• 30:40Speaker 04

  What is the question?

• 30:41Peter Diamandis?

  Tax, you know...

• 30:41Speaker 04

  What do I think of it?

• 30:42Peter Diamandis?

  Real estate itself as a store of value.

• 30:45Speaker 04

  So what I think is, of course, if you just describe Bitcoin as digital property, a store of value, all of the popular criticisms go away and everyone that hates Bitcoin would completely flip once they understood it isn't a currency. So, people just ought to say it's a property, it's not a currency, and every one of those criticisms and weaknesses is no longer relevant. What I think, the second thing I say on store of value is, it's kind of silly to fight to be a digital currency because there's 900 trillion dollars of wealth in the world, 400 trillion of it wants to be store of value, only 1 trillion wants to be a medium of exchange. No, go to a wealthy person and ask them

• 31:28Speaker 04

  what percentage of their wealth is in their checking account? It's like 1% maybe? No wealthy person is holding more than 1% in ready cash. So, it's not even worth fighting for. Like, you can fight the government to be a currency, but you're just fighting someone that's got guns and police force, etc. The store of value is the use case that matters. And another word for store of value is property, and the third word for store of value is capital. And if we just thought, "This is digital capital", now you get to profound idea, right? Which is, there's capital in the economy, where is it sitting?

• 32:10Speaker 04

  Well, it's sitting in buildings, we monetize buildings. A rich person goes and I... I know a lot of wealthy people, they make a fortune, and what they do is they just go buy real estate that they don't need. They buy apartments they don't need. I mean, everybody can pick up the paper and they can see examples. People buy trophy assets and they buy buildings and they buy land they don't need. Land by bank. So, so, real estate is a way to fight inflation or to preserve capital over the long term. Another way to do it is I invested in a company, or I attempt to pick the right stock, a magnificent seven stock. A third way to do it is with art.

• 32:53Speaker 04

  I mean, Velazquez in, you know, the 16th century travels from Spain to Italy. He wants to buy all the great art and he's got the king of Spain's checkbook and an infinite budget, and he complains, "Nobody will sell him the art because all the rich people in Italy are using it as store of value so they can flee with their portable, scarce, desirable property when they have to leave town," or they're using it as an inflation hedge. And I, you know, and I kid you not, go read Will Durant's, you know, history of the Renaissance, and he notes, "It's an inflation hedge and a store in value 500 years ago."

• 33:35Speaker 04

  So, that's, that's the way people think. Why is Bitcoin better? It's better because the problem with storing billions of dollars in a building is the building can't run and the building can't hide and everybody knows a rich person owns the building and therefore we're going to tax them. I mean, I just give you a simple question. I'm going to give you a billion dollars right now, I'm going to drop you in Africa. What building in Africa are you going to buy, in what country, and hold for 100 years? Yeah. Like, there's not a, there is, not to disparage Africa, there's not a single piece of real estate in a single country in Africa that any of you would be wise to purchase

• 34:19Speaker 04

  if you had to hold it 100 years. On the other hand, if you held a billion dollars' worth of Bitcoin in Africa, you'd probably still have the money 100 years from now. And if you lost it, it's because you lost it, not because it was taken from you. Everybody walks past the biggest tower in the, in the city, and they look up and they say, "There's a person with more money than me." And then they think, "Why don't we tax them?" What are they gonna do, move the building? Right? You're not gonna move the building. And so then they walk past the parking lot, and they think, "Well, let's just go ahead and put a zoning restriction on that, so you can't actually build on that parking lot." So, at the end of the day, your property is getting rent-controlled, expropriated, taxed, etc.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  And so, it's the best idea in the 20th century.

• 35:09Peter Diamandis?

  Yeah. I think that's the important point.

• 35:12Speaker 04

  But we're not in the 20th century, we're in the 21st century.

• 35:14Peter Diamandis?

  I wanted to get that point across, because a lot of people think about real estate as somewhat, you know, unique real estate, on the beach, on park, you know, on Central Park. But it has those issues. I'd like to take the conversation to Bitcoin as a technology, lightning rewards. Some time ago, you spoke about, you know, a Bitcoin lightning reward mechanism out of Microstrategies, which I thought was brilliant. Would you go there?

• 35:53Speaker 04

  Well, I think Bitcoin Layer 1 is all about creating monetary integrity in the base layer, and it's meant to be a settlement network for high-powered money. So, in essence, where you see it going is trillions and then hundreds of trillions of dollars in a network. It needs to be extremely robust. But the way you get robust is you create a block every 10 minutes, and you put thousands of transactions every 10 minutes. So, it's destined to move blocks of money, $10 million at a time, $100 million at a time.

• 36:37Speaker 04

  And for that, it's pretty good. You can imagine banks, corporations settling with each other at that speed. And if you want to move a billion dollars from New York to Tokyo, spending $10 seems pretty cheap, and doing it in half an hour is not a big deal. But if you want to get to transactional applications, you can't do it on the base layer. There's two approaches. One approach is you change the base layer to give it higher throughput. But the problem with that is that you're changing the underlying scarcity parameters, which undermines the stability of the system and the integrity and the security of the system. So ultimately, you make the network more fragile. And so, most things don't scale all at one layer.

• 37:22Speaker 04

  You scale in layers. So Lightning is the most famous of the Layer 2s. Really, it's an example of an open protocol Layer 2 system that sits on top of Bitcoin, and it's channel-based. So the idea is, if I want to move $10 back and forth a million times an hour, I probably don't need to put the entire trillion-dollar network at risk. I could probably just set up a channel that had $5 million on this side, or $5 million on this side, and I could move back and forth, and then I'll settle on the base layer as I open and close the channels.

• 38:02Speaker 04

  So the brilliance of that approach is, you're still using Satoshi's or underlying Bitcoin as gas. So you've got an ethical network and an economically sound network, but you've created an infinitely scalable network, because once you go to this channel approach, there's no reason why you can't clear millions of transactions a second. And so Lightning is the Layer 2 to clear millions of transactions a second. You know, the idea of Bitcoin rewards is, if you want to give people small micro-payments or very, very rapid payments for engagement, you show up to a meeting, you get rewarded

• 38:45Speaker 04

  with something of monetary value. If I want to offer people a reward to come and register on my website... I do it using an open network that isn't subject to the constraints of the fiat credit system.

• 39:02Peter Diamandis?

  I do imagine that we're going to very quickly head to a world where everybody's got a digital wallet and is transacting in the same way we have a leather wallet in our pocket. And I love the vision that you had, like if you show up for the HR meeting on time, you get a certain number of satoshis. If you turn in your report on time, if you perform at this level, so you know, you get what you incentivize. And the idea that this is an incentivization process. I keep on waiting for X to announce wallets and an incentive plan like that.

• 39:35Speaker 04

  You know, there's a profound statement made by JP Morgan 100 years ago. He said, "Gold is money, everything else is credit." And just like first principles-

• 39:45Peter Diamandis?

  At least back then.

• 39:46Speaker 04

  Most people don't understand what money is, money's a bearer instrument. Most people don't understand what credit is. Credit is when you have an IOU from a counterparty and they may or may not honor the IOU. So what we have today in the internet is you have a lot of profound applications that are digital transformation of information. We have figured out how to digitally transform photos and music and books and things like that. But we haven't implemented digital money. So whenever you pay anybody on the internet, you're paying with credit, not with money.

• 40:26Speaker 04

  And the problem with paying with credit is Visa, MasterCard, your bank, the correspondent bank, the central banks, there's a stack of seven counterparties in between me and you. And that means that if I wanted to give you 50 cents, let's just say I want to move any amount of money around. If I want to move a dollar around, every time I move it, there's a 30 to 60 day settlement delay. And there's a 2%, 2.5% fee. So when I move the money 40 times, it took 48 months. It takes four years to move the money from 40 people in the room.

• 41:07Speaker 04

  If you just started moving any amount of money, it would be four years before it finally settles. And all the money would be gone. Because it would be like 100% commission you would pay to the banks. So the problem with the credit networks are they're brittle, they're slow, they're expensive. And, and by the way, if you're an AI bot, you can't get a credit card. And if you're, and, and by, so robots aren't people, AIs aren't people. But, you know, and I'm gonna make fun of them because Bitcoin gives AIs in cyberspace sovereignty.

• 41:48Speaker 04

  If you want to release a service powered by an AI into the ether, outside the control of a person, a government, a company, you're gonna need to finance it with money, digital money, which means Bitcoin. So, so AIs aren't people yet, and Bitcoin will give them sovereignty of sorts. But people aren't people, because 6 billion people on the planet, they don't have credit. Like, I dare you to try to send money to someone in, you know, in Africa on Saturday. You know, or try to cross borders, try to send some money to someone in China, see how it works out, right?

• 42:28Speaker 04

  So, and by the way, that's, the, the countries shut down at the border. But even when each, within each country, most people, a lot of people don't have credit card. So Bitcoin is money, everything else is credit. And you cannot build the 21st century cyber economy if you don't have money. Money needs to move at the speed of light, and lightning is an approach. There's a couple, there's a bunch of other approaches.

• 43:02Peter Diamandis?

  So Bitcoin is the financial side of the internet that didn't exist in the 1990s.

• 43:07Speaker 04

  It's, the profound big idea is Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon. They made all their money based on the digital transformation of information apps, which are non-conservative, in a thermodynamic, physical sense, they are non-conservative. I can give every one of you my music file. Whereas, we're now moving into a new transition, I think it's a 30-year transition, it's digital energy.

• 43:33Speaker 04

  It is, it is, it's digital energy, digital money, digital capital, digital property. These are all just different words for things that are conservative in cyberspace. If I give you a billion dollars, I have to lose it. I can't give everybody a billion dollars, right? Some, you know, there has to be, there has to be a conservation of energy or conservation of money here. And none of the great companies have been built on digital energy or digital monetary apps. But if you think about the next set of applications, the ones where, where I can take a block

• 44:14Speaker 04

  of a billion dollars of, of capital in cyberspace and I can decompose it to a million smaller blocks, send it to a million different places in one hour, recompose it three hours later, chop it into a bunch of $10 segments, pull that back, oscillate it, program it, transfer it, or just store it for fif- how do you store money for 50 years? Right? And, and the metaphor I give you as an aeronautical engineer, which I think Elon would like and I think you'll like is, is the difference between you launch something and it goes ballistic and comes back to Earth.

• 44:53Peter Diamandis?

  Suborbital versus orbital.

• 44:54Speaker 04

  And you launch it and it reaches escape velocity and it goes orbital. One, one is in space forever and the other's in space for a blink of an eye. And what we're trying to do is put energy in cyberspace or put money in cyberspace, reach escape velocity such that it lasts forever with zero friction. It's like hype, superconducting.

• 45:19Peter Diamandis?

  Everybody, I want to take a break from our episode to tell you about an amazing company on a mission to prevent and reverse chronic disease by decoding your biology. The company is called Viome and they offer cutting-edge tests and personalized products that help you optimize your gut microbiome, your oral microbiome, and your cellular health. As you probably know, your microbiome is a collection of trillions of microbes that live in your gut and mouth. And these microbiomes influence everything, your digestion, immunity, mood, weight, and many other aspects of your health. But not all microbes are good for you. Some can cause inflammation, toxins, and actually lead to chronic diseases like diabetes, heart disease, obesity, and even cancer.

• 46:04Peter Diamandis?

  Viome uses advanced mRNA technology and AI to analyze your microbes and your cells and give you personalized nutrition recommendations and products designed specifically for your genetics, specifically for your biology. You can choose from different tests depending on your goals and needs, ranging from improving your gut health, your oral health, cellular function, or all of them. I've been using Viome for the past three years. I can tell you that it has made a huge difference in my health. And because of the data they collect and the AI engine they've built, it gets better every single day. I love getting health scores and seeing how my diet and lifestyle affects my microbiome

• 46:46Peter Diamandis?

  and my cells, and I love getting precision supplements and probiotics tailored for my specific needs. If you want to join me on this journey of discovery and improve your health from the inside out, Viome has a special offer for you. For a limited time, you can get up to 40% off any Viome test using the code MOONSHOTS. Just go to viome.com backslash MOONSHOTS and order your test today. Trust me, you won't regret it. All right, let's go back to our episode. Let's talk about the path towards what seems to be inevitable, for which there is tremendous social disbelief, institutional resistance, manipulation.

• 47:28Peter Diamandis?

  So let's say the decade of 2000 to 2018, 19 was still the very entrepreneurial, highly, highly risk area. We start to have adoption by wealthier individuals, and we finally moved into institutions.

• 47:53Peter Diamandis?

  The release of the ETFs. And I talk about going from deceptive to disruptive, and we're in that near the curve, right? This is an example of the six Ds, right? We've digitized money, you've dematerialized it, right? You've effectively demonetized the ability to transmit, and you've democratized access to it. And it's going from deceptive to disruptive. What is the, is there a final card to flip, domino to fall? Is it governments beyond El Salvador adopting this?

• 48:26Speaker 04

  You know, I think 2020 to 2024 was, you know, the, it was the, I don't know, high volatility, high uncertainty. It's like that early stage of institutional adoption. But really, we start mainstream institutional adoption, I would date it to January 2024 with the approval of the ETFs, the spot ETFs. And I think it runs, we have about a 10-year gold rush. It runs to 2034 November. Between 2024 and 2034, we will have mined 99% of all the Bitcoins.

• 49:07Speaker 04

  So Bitcoin becomes, for all practical purposes, fixed by November of 2024. The last 1% comes out over 100 years. Okay, so we have this 42-quarter period where, at the beginning of the period...

• 49:25Peter Diamandis?

  What percentage do we at now?

• 49:26Speaker 04

  Right now, we're like 94%.

• 49:30Peter Diamandis?

  Wow.

• 49:31Speaker 04

  So you've got, you think it's not much, but I mean, 5% is a lot over 10 years compared to 1% over 100 years. So there's actually still Bitcoin available for sale right now. The miners have to sell it. So at the beginning of this period in Q1, we're in Q1 now. If you go to January 1st, no institution could buy it even if they wanted to. It just wasn't on their radar. And so you really have 42 quarters of people learning what it is, studying it. It takes 10 hours to scratch the surface and it takes 100 hours before you get a degree of comfort. Most people, you know, once they get past the age of 40,

• 50:16Speaker 04

  they don't want to spend 100 hours learning a new thing. It's very rare. So you've got Wall Street firms spinning up massive education apparatus. You've got a whole set of stages of adoption. First, can I buy it? Then is it on the approved list for solicited sale? Then is it on the approved list for unsolicited sale? Is it marginable? Can I borrow against it? Is it optionable? Can I hedge it? Is it recommended? Is it structural? Is it built into a fund? That's like seven layers of adoption. People take a year to think about each of those layers. There's 100 powerful entities that control huge amounts of money that'll go through that in the Western world.

• 51:01Speaker 04

  So I think we're in this institutional education stage. And in 2034, it'll simply be the new thing. Right now, it's like the scary exotic thing for most people.

• 51:20Peter Diamandis?

  Yeah, it's interesting. My mom asked me what she should be doing with her mandatory distributions. And I said, "Buy the Bitcoin ATF." Right? Talk to me one second about... I don't want you to give financial advice, but I do want you to speak to... How do I put this? How should a person think about what percentage of their wealth they put here?

• 51:49Speaker 04

  I think it depends upon where you live, who you are, what your life situation is, and also whether you're a corporation, a charity, a government, a family, an individual, that matters too. So, for example, if you were asking me for that advice for a business owner in Nigeria right now, I would say most. I would say, the question you've got to ask yourself is, can I trust the government? Can I trust the bank? Can I trust the currency? And can I leave with my stuff?

• 52:31Speaker 04

  So, if you're saying to me, "Mike, should I buy a building in Nigeria? Or should I buy a business? Or should I buy a diversified portfolio?" Would I recommend a diversified portfolio of Venezuelan stocks? Or a diversified portfolio of Cuban stocks? Like, it really depends on where you live. North Korea, Cuba are kind of simple. All through Africa, if you lived in Egypt, the currency's unwinding. If you follow the Turkish lira, the Turkish lira's gone from 7 lira to the dollar to 32 lira to the dollar in 36 months.

• 53:09Peter Diamandis?

  Let's make believe we're living in the US or a European nation.

• 53:12Speaker 04

  Okay, and if you're 70 years old and you're retired and you don't expect to ever have to flee for your life, then you probably should buy the ETF. And if you're 20 years old and you've got your entire life ahead of you and you think you might want to relocate to a different country and you can't predict it, then generally you're better to buy the underlying asset. Some people should buy the Bitcoin in self-custody. Some people should buy the Bitcoin and they should institutional custody. Some people should buy the ETF. And then if we flip to companies, there are companies where it's illegal for them. You know, to say self custody.

• 53:54Speaker 04

  There are companies where, there are investment companies where they can't buy certain commodities, but they could buy securities. So the real issue is, what's the entity? And then, what's your time horizon? As a general rule, the longer your time horizon, the more you would prefer to hold the money, the underlying commodity asset. Because if you hold the asset, you can transfer it to any counterparty in the world. You can custody it anywhere, you can self custody, and it doesn't come with a taxable event.

• 54:28Peter Diamandis?

  Let's make believe you're speaking to 400 CEOs in the room.

• 54:37Peter Diamandis?

  Who are asking the question about, you know, I've got...

• 54:42Speaker 04

  Okay, I'm gonna give you a very simple observation. Everybody looks at Bitcoin and they think, well, how do I create the next cash app? Or the next mobile app? Or the next fidelity? Or the next Coinbase? Or the next whatever? And they think really hard about that. Or how do I topple JP Morgan? It's like, that's a very difficult thing to do. I'll give you a very simple idea. You have a treasury in your company. If you put your treasury into sovereign debt, you're gonna yield 5% pre-tax, 3% after-tax. And you're not gonna beat the cost of capital. The cost of capital right now is 8% to 10% in the US. Easy.

• 55:24Speaker 04

  So, if that's the case, your treasury is a liability, which means that any rational person would look at you and say, you should decapitalize. You should run on the minimum working capital? Or negative working capital? And you should run on debt. But I'll give you another idea. If you actually are investing in something, you expect to go up 20% to 40% a year for the next decade, you're beating the cost of capital by a factor of 2. That means the right thing to do is go back to your venture capitalist or your bank and just raise $100 million that you don't need. And buy Bitcoin with it. Because if the business you're running doesn't work, you will have a business that's growing 20% to 30% a year, scalably, for the next 30 years.

• 56:09Speaker 04

  That will work, right? You'll double the 100 million two times in the next six years. So you'll be 200, 400 million. In six years, when the thing that you're doing right now doesn't work, you're gonna have a business that's growing 20% a year off a 400 million dollar base, which is a monopoly. So, most, I think, the number one, I mean, this is a simple hack, but every venture capitalist in the world is getting 2 in 20. They're getting a 2% management fee and a 20% participation. And their mandate is, they have to invest in operating businesses that are private. And if they were to go and buy a billion dollars of Bitcoin with limited partner capital, their limited partners would say, "Are you crazy? I could have bought the Bitcoin."

• 56:53Speaker 04

  So, the VC can't buy Bitcoin, which is the risk-free return of 20, 30% a year. The VC can give you the 100 million dollars. You can buy the Bitcoin. They end up with debt and a private company. You end up with 100, 200, 500 million dollar business growing 20, 30% a year that's scalable, that you run with yourself and your CFO. It's good for them. They're gonna make a fortune. They want to invest the money. The real problem in the world, and by the way, this is, back to the Dow of Steve. In the Dow of Steve, there's a guy sitting on the bed and he's smoking marijuana and someone's saying, "Well, you know, like, why aren't you out there doing something?"

• 57:37Speaker 04

  And he says, "Doing stuff is highly overrated."

• 57:39Speaker 06

  (laughing)

• 57:40Speaker 04

  Okay? So, here's the big idea, which is, there's a couple hundred trillion dollars of capital in the world that's debasing at 10% a year right now. And the big idea is just stop investing in toxic money, right? If you simply flip your treasury to something accreting at 10% a year.

• 58:01Speaker 06

  (applause)

• 58:07Speaker 04

  You see, it's like, everybody wants to like do, they want to hire 100 people and do a lot of stuff that's risky. But really, the, here's, this is very painful, but it's, if I told you, "The water that you're giving your kids is toxic and it's full of pathogens, and that's why half of your children died", and you said, "Well, what's the big idea?", I would say, "Give your kids clean water." "Is that easy?", "Yeah", and if I said, "The food, well, the food's not cooked and there are worms in it and pathogens, and that's why you're dying", "What's the big idea?", "Eat clean food", right, I mean, that whole idea, what about clean air?

• 58:52Speaker 04

  Clean air, clean the food, clean the, here's a one, "All my doctors, they want to give me bad drugs and bleed me whenever I sneeze", "What's the big idea?", "Stop taking the bad drugs and stop letting them bleed you", okay, so if you're running a business and you're running a business on cash, the cash is losing 8% of its value a year, you're basically bleeding out energy on your balance sheet right now, and the simple idea for max performance is, "Turn your balance sheet into an asset", anybody could do it, and, and, you know, what, what happens? Well, the micro-strategy story is,

• 59:33Speaker 04

  "We had a $600 million enterprise value with 600 million of cash, which was a liability", what did we do? We flipped it to be 600 million of Bitcoin, and a $600 million enterprise, and then the Bitcoin kept grow, and the Bitcoin's been going up 40% a year, Bitcoin is going, I can't tell you what it will do, but I can tell you it will outperform the S&P 500 over time, that, that I'm quite sure of, so, you flip your balance sheet to become an asset, and today, the enterprise value of the company's $30 billion, you know, the, the stock's up by a factor of 10, the equity market cap's up by a factor of 20, and the enterprise value's up by a factor of 40,

• 1:00:16Speaker 04

  it took 42 months, 40, not four years, I, you know, I haven't graduated from my senior year in Bitcoin, I'm halfway through my senior year in Bitcoin, but, the profound idea is...

• 1:00:33Speaker 04

  Every company in the world has toxic assets on its balance sheet. They're all liabilities, right? And we've taught, the conventional wisdom in corporate finance is, if you have capital, give it back and dividend it out. Facebook is buying back 50 billion of their stock and dividing out billions of their stock. Apple is buying back their stock and dividing out their stock. Scratch your head and think about this a second. I'm gonna apply this to Harvard and MIT. Give back the endowment and just raise the cost of the tuition 20% a year and stack twice as many students per class. And that's how you fix the university.

• 1:01:16Speaker 04

  Right? Not, no, right? How about this is an idea for your family. I want you to take all the money your family has. I want you to give it away to charity. And I just want you to tell your wife, your husband, your kids just to work harder and ask for a 15% raise next year. And that's how you're gonna fix your family. I said, that's, they're both pretty silly, right? And like, you would never, in a million years, have that as your strategy. We give up all the capital and we work harder. But you know what the corporate playbook is? Give up all the capital, raise your prices, work harder, grow your cash flows by 15% a year, and then you'll be fine. And, you know, that's why 99% of the companies fail.

• 1:02:01Speaker 04

  That's why the life expectancy of a corporation is 10 years. And you know what? I mean, Harvard, Oxford, Yale, they lasted more than 10 years. Did they do it by raising their prices 10% a year and working harder? No. In fact, there's not much productivity boost in any of those places in 500 years. So here's the profound idea, which is, you know, if we adopted a different financial model in corporations, you could have companies last for hundreds of years. You don't have to die, right? For example, you're a dentist.

• 1:02:38Speaker 04

  You know, why do I have to raise my prices 10 or 20% a year to be viewed as successful as a dentist, right? It's like, it's because, I'll tell you why, because we keep expanding the currency supply by 10%, which means the price of everything you want to buy goes up by 10%, which means you have to grow your cash flows by 10%. And that's why the magnificent seven generate all the returns in the S and P 500, and there are 493 companies that return nothing, zero, right? And by the way, it's not their fault, right? We blame them. We blame the companies like we blame the workers for not working harder. It's not their fault.

• 1:03:23Speaker 04

  You cannot outwork inflation. And we're back to this issue of, if the person that runs the currency or the money printer just keeps printing 20% more money or 10% more money a year, you just stop the heart. You basically create a heart attack for every worker in the economy. And so my advice to anybody who's a CEO is, don't work harder, work smarter, but really, you're in a rowboat, you're trying to row, the wind is blowing, get yourself a sail, put the sail up and let the wind blow you, instead of trying to row across the Atlantic, you're not going to make it.

• 1:04:03Peter Diamandis?

  How many folks here right now, in the back of their mind, they're thinking, as soon as I get home, I'm going to look at putting a chunk of my treasury or a chunk of my personal into Bitcoin. Can you raise your hand if that's a conversation that you're having with yourself right now? So, right in 2014, I gave everybody in the room here Bitcoin as a gift. We had a Bitcoin ATM. And you have no idea how many people came to me years later saying, remember that piece of paper you gave me? Can I have a copy of it? No. But you're getting the equivalent right now, right? You're getting the equivalent right now, which is to say, if you can appreciate the

• 1:04:47Peter Diamandis?

  logic here, the first principle thinking that Michael is putting forward.

• 1:04:54Peter Diamandis?

  Then you probably are thinking about going back and making that change. Now, the degree to which you want to put some or all of your treasury, or some of all of your cash, or some of all of your stocks into Bitcoin is up to you. But I am curious, and I will ask you next year, or maybe in the next meetup that we have, how many did that? And then we'll see a year from now, or five years from now, how many billions of dollars that was worth to the room. It'll be an interesting experiment.

• 1:05:29Speaker 04

  The low-risk way to do it, Pete, is you just go to a venture capitalist, and next time you raise $50 million in capital, raise $100 million in capital, and then put $50 million into Bitcoin, and the other $50 million or whatever. I mean, how many people in the room have a business they think they can grow 20% a year, every year, for the next decade, without taking any more capital, without a capital investment, without hiring another person, without taking competitive risk? Like, if you're honest with yourself, no one's sure they can do that. There's like seven companies that have done it: Google, Facebook, Amazon.

• 1:06:08Speaker 04

  We know their names, because for every one of them succeeded, 10,000 companies failed. It is statistically very difficult. But on the other hand, so when you invest in Bitcoin, it's probably the least risky thing you're doing. But I'm not telling you, by the way, the big idea is not just take every last penny and buy Bitcoin. The real big idea is that their venture capitalists, like SoftBank with $10 billion, $20 billion, $50 billion, their problem is they need to invest the money, right? They need to invest the money, and they need a use of proceeds. And Bitcoin is the world's greatest use of proceeds, because it's accretive, it beats

• 1:06:52Speaker 04

  the cost of capital, right? And sovereign debt does not beat the cost of capital. Cash does not beat the cost of capital. You can't... By the way, you can't do this with art. You can't do it with real estate. I mean, the closest thing would be, I'm gonna raise billions of dollars. I'm gonna buy high-quality real estate. And so, that's a real estate development thing. But that's a 20th-century idea. And we're in the 21st century. And you need to think about cyber-real estate.

• 1:07:25Peter Diamandis?

  We go to about 20 minutes of questions here. If I have a question, please go to this microphone. Michael, while people are lining up here, what about AI and Bitcoin?

• 1:07:36Speaker 04

  Okay, I think the way that AI is empowered by Bitcoin is literally Bitcoin is digital money and AI is digital intelligence. You know, you think about the idea like, I create a digital accountant that gives advice or a digital lawyer that gives advice. Well, how's it get paid? What if I wanted to actually release that digital thing and have it learn to do this in every country? But how do I cross borders, you know? And how does the AI get, you know, get credit cards? It can't.

• 1:08:08Peter Diamandis?

  I can't wait. We talked about having an appropriate jurisdiction where AIs can self-incorporate, start their company, and run it. Charlie, let's kick it off with you, pal.

• 1:08:20Speaker 07

  Wow. Thank you. So I have a question about governments getting into digital currency. To what's your opinion about governments getting into digital currency as a way of directing how people will spend money? So the example being government issues a digital currency says if you make less than $250,000 and you do X, Y, and Z, we'll give you A, B, and C. But if you make over a certain amount, you get the point of what I'm trying to say.

• 1:08:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, so just to be clear, so. I am. I don't think Bitcoin is digital currency. I think it's digital property. But an example of digital currency is Tether, or USD, or Euros, or CNY, moving on a digital device. Governments, as long as there's an effective government and they have power, they're going to designate legal tender. And currency is a system of control, as well as a medium of exchange. And so, it's going to be a very political issue, very controversial. There'll be lots of politics. In an authoritarian government, they will use a digital currency as a system of control. In the US, there's a massive fight on Capitol Hill over whether or not there should be

• 1:09:38Speaker 04

  a digital currency. And people that believe in freedom and the like, they're going to fight it and do their best to stop it. I think that you'll see that debate in every country in the world. It'll continue. And it'll be layered in with another debate, which is, for example, if the people that love the digital dollar in the form of Tether are actually the Argentines that want a medium of exchange. So, the positive of a digital currency for the United States is, if the US actually mandated a digital currency, the dollar would collapse and replace every other currency in the world,

• 1:10:20Speaker 04

  including it would metastasize through Russia, through China, through all of our enemies and our friends. And you would have Allies of America complaining that their local currency collapsed, and you would have enemies of America not liking that. So, it can be used as a tool to spread, to make a certain currency a reserve currency. And if you want the US dollar to remain the world's reserve currency, you would actually argue in favor of a digital currency, because why wouldn't you want China to run on the dollar, if you could get it to work that way? But, you know, equally, there's the issue of who controls it. Are you going to have a private corporation issue it, running on a crypto rail?

• 1:11:05Speaker 04

  Or are you going to have a government issue it, running on a state-controlled banking rail? Look, I don't have the answer. It's very controversial. I do think that the future of digital currencies in the US will probably be influenced heavily by the November elections and by the next administration. Thank you. Adam?

• 1:11:23Speaker 08

  Michael, I'm curious how you think about the identity of Satoshi. Like, does it matter a lot to you? Have you spent a lot of resources trying to investigate this?

• 1:11:32Speaker 04

  No, I don't think it matters at all, and I think it's better that we never know. And I think that what makes Bitcoin special is it had an immaculate conception. Look, there's a fundamental, a very asset test. Is it a commodity or is it a security? If a crypto asset is a commodity, that means it's an asset without an issuer. If it's going to be a commodity, it means no person, no company, no government, no group of people can exercise undue influence over the future of the protocol. If there was a Satoshi alive, speaking, tweeting today, and Satoshi said, "I think we should change this part of the protocol," that would be an awful, awful fact.

• 1:12:17Speaker 04

  It would undermine the integrity of the network. The guy that invented gold is not tweeting that he wants to change the atomic characteristics of gold and the density of gold. That's why it's actually a commodity. And so, I think Bitcoin is unique and that it had an immaculate conception. Satoshi's gone, walked away, and the thing didn't even monetize until Pizza Day 18 months later. And I think that it can't be ethical, it can't be ethical money and global money unless it's a commodity. It's easy to create a security. You can create a million securities.

• 1:13:01Speaker 04

  You could spin them up in three hours. It's hard to create a commodity, because the miracle of Bitcoin was, we release something to the hobbyist that's worthless, and then, on Pizza Day, a year and a half later, someone wants to pay a fraction of a penny for it, and it spontaneously monetizes. That's never happened in the history of the world. It may never happen again. And Satoshi is not necessary, is not relevant, and it's an open-source protocol. Read the code, right? And decide for yourself whether you trust it.

• 1:13:40Peter Diamandis?

  Thomas.

• 1:13:42Speaker 09

  Ja, ich finde die Idee sehr gut, deine Treasury in Bitcoin zu üben. Und ich möchte mit dir noch eine andere Idee diskutieren. Denn alle, die heute Bitcoin halten, und wir halten Bitcoin, was wir seit vielen Jahren tun, haben wir so weit so gut als eine Trillion Dollar in Bitcoin investiert, was in einem gewissen Sinne Kapital ist, der sich ausübt. Also, das ist der Grund, warum ich meine Meinung zu DeFi über Bitcoin hören möchte, das würde ermöglichen, dass du gegen dein Bitcoin kriegst und dann es reinvestieren kannst, um Asse wie dezentralisierte Infrastruktur zu investieren.

• 1:14:21Speaker 04

  Ich denke, wir haben ein offenes Markt und es gibt Tausende von Experimenten und Tausende von Projekten, die gerade passieren. Zum Beispiel MicroStrategy hat mehr als 200.000 Bitcoin. Ich habe letztes Woche 1,4 Billionen Euro kriegt. Das ist DeFi, oder? Und wie machen wir das? Wir haben das mit Optionsmarkt, Konvertibles Geldmarkt, dem Nasdaq-Spotmarkt getan.

• 1:14:48Speaker 04

  IBIT ist eine BlackRock-App. In einem Jahr oder zwei Jahren. Ich bin sicher, dass große Kabelwerke wie JP Morgan oder Goldman Sachs dir gegen das借钱 geben. Das ist eine andere Art, das zu tun. Es gibt eine Menge Krypto-Anschläge, oder? Im Endeffekt, die Frage ist, ob du Geld auf deinem Bitcoin bekommen kannst. Du kannst Geld bekommen. Die Leute, die mein Konvertibles Geld gekauft haben, bekommen Geld. Und es gibt viele Möglichkeiten, Geld zu bekommen. Es gibt viele Möglichkeiten, Kredit zu generieren. Es kommt mit Kollaborationsschub. Und die Frage ist, welchen Kollaborator du vertrauen willst.

• 1:15:30Speaker 04

  Manchmal vertrauen wir jemandem wie FTX oder Genesis, und sie lassen dich runter. Manche Menschen vertrauen nicht den CME oder Nasdaq. Manche Menschen vertrauen nicht was auch immer. Ich würde nichts fördern. Was ich sagen würde, ist, es gibt 100.000 Experimente, die werden ausgeführt. Die Antwort wird anders sein. than it is in China, than it is in the US, than it is in France. And it's going to be different five years from now than it is right now. So all these are morphing. But I do think that Bitcoin, at the end of the day, is the highest quality capital. It is going to, it is, you know, is the most credit-worthy thing because you've got transparency to a 24/7/365.

• 1:16:14Speaker 04

  We have a situation where the credit markets and the payment markets are immature. There's a huge amount of work to be done over the next decade to build out all of these various parts of the financial universe. And like, some people will do it very enthusiastically, like Sam Bankman-Fried was very enthusiastic, didn't know what he didn't know, and blew up. Other people will go slower, but they'll do a, like, they'll do, they'll go slower, but they'll do a better job. And, uh, and the answer will be different for every type of entity. So I am enthusiastic, but I don't think there's any one answer. I think it's a market economy.

• 1:16:54Speaker 10

  Warren. Hi, I love, uh, what you're doing and your stock. In fact, I've made five times more on your stock and derivatives around it than buying Bitcoin. So one of my questions would be, why should we buy Bitcoin? Why don't we just buy your stock? And what do you think the halving event is really going to do to the price?

• 1:17:15Speaker 04

  Bitcoin's a commodity, it's an asset without an issuer. Uh, whenever you invest in a company, you're taking counterparty risk. In order to invest in my stock, you should reasonably read 1,000 pages of disclosures. And, and I'll make the obvious point, people in Nigeria can't self-custody micro-strategy stock. So, so what, we're trying to solve the problem of creating integrity, sovereignty, you know, truth and hope for the world.

• 1:17:47Speaker 04

  That's going to be done via protocol, right? MicroStrategy is simply a high-performance business, right? There's a lot of other businesses and we... Every business does their thing in the world as best they can. So, we offer a very particular thing to us. We offer convertible debt to convertible arbitragers. And they have billions of dollars of capital and they can only convertible arbitrage. So if we didn't give it to them, their capital wouldn't come in the ecosystem. And so that 1.4 billion that I got came from them. That went into Bitcoin. I need to do something for them. It's a complicated something.

• 1:18:30Speaker 04

  There's a lot of volatility to it, right? There's a limit to how much we can do.

• 1:18:35Peter Diamandis?

  Can we just buy your stock there?

• 1:18:37Speaker 04

  You know, the truth is, I would recommend to anybody that's interested in Bitcoin, they should study Bitcoin before they buy anything. And then after they study Bitcoin for 100 hours, they ought to... I would say you ought to buy the Bitcoin. The real debate ought to be, do you buy the Bitcoin in self-custody? Buy the Bitcoin institutional custody? Buy the Bitcoin through an ETF?

• 1:19:00Peter Diamandis?

  What about the having?

• 1:19:01Speaker 04

  Bitcoin is the innovation, right? Bitcoin is the innovation. If you're a professional investor and you have billions of dollars of capital... By the way, the investors in my company aren't allowed to buy Bitcoin. Nor are they allowed to buy the ETF. Their charter is, here's $10 billion. You have to invest in publicly traded operating companies. So, my company is meeting a need for certain types of investors that are sophisticated. I'm not here to promote my company, right? I expect Bitcoin will be here 1,000 years from now. My company won't be. I won't be, right? There's not much to be said there.

• 1:19:42Peter Diamandis?

  What about the having? What do you expect to see?

• 1:19:46Speaker 04

  Bitcoins, right now, there are 900 Bitcoin naturally produced every day available for sale. And the miners generally have to sell them. They have high electricity bills and high debt bills and build outs.

• 1:20:00Speaker 04

  Around April 20th, that'll be cut in half. That's 23 million a day, or 20-something million a day. That's like taking $8 billion a year of supply out of the market. It will be the most consequential halving in the history of Bitcoin, in my opinion. It will create a squeeze. It means at that point, if the natural organic demand is in excess of, you know, 25 million a day, then there is no natural seller. So it's obviously, it's very bullish for the asset class and for Bitcoin holders. I think that by 2028, you'll be down to 225 Bitcoin a day.

• 1:20:42Speaker 04

  It'll start to become second order, and by 2032, it's a rounding error in the noise.

• 1:20:49Peter Diamandis?

  Who are the sellers of Bitcoin over the last six months and a year?

• 1:20:54Speaker 04

  I think that there's a number of classes sellers. The bankruptcy estates, like FTX bankruptcy, Genesis bankruptcy. A lot of these people have billion-dollar positions of Bitcoin and other crypto assets, and they're not long-term investors. They're just looking to unwind and get their creditors whole, or unwind the trust. So they're the big natural sellers right now.

• 1:21:17Peter Diamandis?

  So they were flushed out of the system?

• 1:21:19Speaker 04

  And they're getting flushed out of the system. And then I think the miners are the persistent natural sellers. Otherwise, the volatility in the system, it comes, there's a, the primary volatility is that Bitcoin is cross-collateralized and cross-traded with the other crypto assets. It's an unregulated market, traded offshore 24/7/365. There are many, many billions of dollars of Bitcoin held offshore. There's $400 billion of ETH in a market cap. There's 80 billion and 80 billion of Solana and BNB right now. If you had a billion dollars of crypto tokens offshore,

• 1:22:04Speaker 04

  you could post it as collateral and you could do a $10 billion trade in an hour on Saturday night, unregulated, unreported. So the Wild West, the number one source of volatility, in my opinion, is unregulated offshore after-hours crypto trading. The second, the lesser source of volatility, is the options and the futures and derivatives market onshore during normal trading hours in the Western world. But I think that although they are capable of face-ripping trades, you know, the degenerates in the crypto ecosystem put them all to shame in terms of what people will do.

• 1:22:46Peter Diamandis?

  Face-ripping trades. Over the years, I've experimented with many intermittent fasting programs. The truth is, I've given up on intermittent fasting as I've seen no real benefit when it comes to longevity. But this changed when I discovered something called ProLon's five-day fasting nutrition program. It harnesses the process of autophagy. This is a cellular recycling process that revitalizes your body at a molecular level. And just one cycle of the five-day ProLon fasting nutrition program can support healthy aging, fat-focused weight loss, improved energy levels and more. It's a painless process, and I've been doing it twice a year for the last year. You can get a 15% off on your order when you go to my special URL.

• 1:23:31Peter Diamandis?

  Go to prolonlife.com, P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F-E dot com backslash moonshot. Get started on your longevity journey with ProLon today. Now, back to the episode. Let's go to Greg on Zoom.

• 1:23:49Peter Diamandis?

  Go ahead, Greg.

• 1:23:51Speaker 11

  Hey, everyone. Hey, Michael. I appreciate everything you're saying. I just want to know, what's your thoughts on Ethereum or Litecoin or any of the other cryptocurrencies out there?

• 1:24:06Speaker 04

  I stay in my lane generally and I say you should buy Bitcoin, don't sell your Bitcoin, Bitcoin's good, I like Bitcoin, it's an ethical commodity. Everything else in the -- what I'll say about everything else is, is the rest of the digital asset ecosystem is a bunch of good ideas with a lot of regulatory uncertainty and competitive uncertainty and technical uncertainty. So, they're all interesting ideas. Digital currency is interesting, it's very controversial. Digital tokens are interesting, they're very controversial. Digital securities are interesting, very controversial. Digital exchanges are interesting, they're very controversial.

• 1:24:49Speaker 04

  I have no recommendations one way or the other, I just think they're complicated.

• 1:24:55Peter Diamandis?

  Jason?

• 1:24:56Speaker 03

  Hi, Michael. So, I'm bullish on Bitcoin, so, big supporter, but is there a situation or an event that you view that could potentially lead to the collapse of Bitcoin? Have you guys thought about what?

• 1:25:11Peter Diamandis?

  Putting it differently, I was gonna ask that question. If it's 10 years from now and Bitcoin has failed, what caused it to fail?

• 1:25:19Speaker 04

  You know, when I started searching around and I discovered Bitcoin, I thought, okay, well, this is crypto gold, but it's got none of the defects of gold, it's got all the attributes of a big tech monopoly. It's better money than any economist has ever conceptualized in the history of the world, so I thought, this is kind of perfect money, I can't see it being more perfect. So, the question is, is it gonna be banned, is it gonna be copied, or is it gonna be hacked? You know, you start as the denier, it's not a good thing, and then you go to skeptic. Skeptic is it's too good to be true. So, when I got to my skeptical phrase, I just asked, will it be banned, will it be

• 1:26:04Speaker 04

  copied, will it be hacked? And I stared at it, and the conclusion was, if it's understood to be property, not currency, then no, it's not going to be banned in a country that gives you property rights. Which means, it's banned in Cuba, it's banned in North Korea. If the world becomes communist and they deprive you of the ability to own things, that's an existential risk. But that's not a problem in Russia, or China, or the US right now. So, not banned. Will it be copied? It was copied 10,000 times, they all failed. This is the winner of that 10,000 experiments. So, yeah, it worked. And now, will it be hacked?

• 1:26:45Speaker 04

  And Satoshi's got 50, 60 billion dollars in a wallet out there, then that's the reward for hacking it, and no one's figured out how to get the money yet. So, it hasn't been hacked, and I know it's able to store 60 billion without anybody hitting it. So, what I think, is I think the way to understand Bitcoin is, everything you learned in economics and about money in your entire life was pseudoscience, you know, and superstitious. And, you can't blame the economists for being mired in pseudoscience and superstition, because

• 1:27:26Speaker 04

  we never had, we never discovered, perfect money. And so Bitcoin is the first time that we actually discovered a thermodynamically sound, mathematically sound economic protocol in the history of the world. So, I think we will date things before Satoshi and after Satoshi. And I think that, you can't think of it as a network, or as a product. You have to look at it as a protocol the human race discovered, like base ten math, math is a protocol, like the metric systems are protocol, like English is a protocol. And, so this is the first sound protocol, economic protocol, in the history of the

• 1:28:11Speaker 04

  world. Now we finally realize why seashells and bales of tobacco and fiat currency, and gold coins and silver coins and copper tokens and glass beads and the giant stone coin and the yap people. We understand why that stuff never worked. Now you know. If you really understand Bitcoin, it's because I've got an asset where the energy has a half-life of forever. And the half-life of energy in gold is 30 years. And the half-life of your money or your energy in the dollar is 10 years. And the half-life of your energy in the Bolivar is one year. And now, once you understand that basic breakthrough, now the light bulb goes off.

• 1:28:54Speaker 04

  So I think all the smart money, all the, all the smart people in the world that don't trust the bank, don't trust the currency, want to keep their money, they're all discovering Bitcoin. It's like all the smart people decided to use math and use this language. And now what happens in the future? Well, stuff will advance, but you've, you're gonna have a trillion, then a 10 trillion, then a hundred trillion dollar network. And if someone comes up with a new crypto algorithm and is better, we're just gonna fold it into this network. And if someone comes up with, with another twist or tweak, we're gonna fold it in the network. You're not gonna, it's like saying,

• 1:29:39Speaker 04

  everybody uses English in the world of science and trade today, but, but English doesn't have a word for my widget. So I think we should all switch to Swahili because they've got the word. And my answer is, I think we're just gonna put the word into English and we're gonna stick with English. So Bitcoin is a protocol. It's gonna go on a long, long, long time. And I think that as long as the world doesn't plunge into some Orwellian, no property rights situation, I think we're good.

• 1:30:10Peter Diamandis?

  I'm gonna take three last questions from Paul, from Mark, and from Marina on Zoom. Paul?

• 1:30:17Speaker 12

  Hi, Michael, Paul, Paul Breo from Chicago, Illinois. Very central talk. You've convinced me to get crypto, but um...

• 1:30:27Peter Diamandis?

  Not just, he's not pitching crypto.

• 1:30:29Speaker 12

  I mean Bitcoin, I know Bitcoin. So that's, that's, um, to be more specific, how do you think about... These other stable coins like Cardano and Ethereum? And is crypto in general a zero-sum game or not a zero-sum game?

• 1:30:48Speaker 04

  Cardano and Ethereum aren't stable coins. They're crypto tokens, you know, which are probably unregistered securities. And so Cardano has been designated as an unregistered security by the SEC explicitly in lawsuits. Ethereum is this massive gray zone. So at the end of the day Bitcoin is the only, the only thing in the world universally acknowledged by every rational, intelligent person is Bitcoin is a commodity. Everything else you're going to see people disagree on and fight over and litigate politically and there's a war that will go on. And so what I think is there's 10,000 things that people are going to fight over.

• 1:31:33Speaker 04

  There's one thing that is institutional adoption, it's clear. So it's like asking me which of the 10,000 mobile apps would I suggest I should invest in? My answer is none of them because there's a 99% failure rate in startups. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to recommend you invest in a company. Which of 10,000 buildings should you buy? I don't know. Which of 10,000 pieces of art should you buy? I don't know. I mean, that's your business, right? If you want to do that, you do that. The only thing that I'm here to say is Bitcoin is a digital commodity. If you want global money, then it has to be a commodity. It cannot be a security, right? I'm not going to tell you to buy Apple stock.

• 1:32:18Speaker 04

  Apple stock will not be a store of value in China in 100 years, right? I mean, even Tim Cook would tell you that. So, so the world is very complicated when you get into securities and, and other types of investments. The idea of Bitcoin is what if we had a global money that was based on a crypto network that's decentralized and ethical?

• 1:32:41Speaker 12

  It is, it is zero-sum.

• 1:32:45Speaker 04

  No, I think Apple will be a successful company. No, I mean crypto, is crypto zero sum? You know, you can... Is crypto economy zero sum? If the government allow, if the administration flips and they allow companies to issue stable coins, then a company that issues a stable coin in a compliant regime will make a lot of money issuing it. And if the next head of the SEC says that Tom Brady can issue Tom Brady coin and 10 million tokens and file a quarterly statement saying how many tokens are out there, then there's a business there. So, there's a million, as I said, there's a lot of good ideas. If you've got a regulatory regime that will allow you to do it in a legal fashion, then

• 1:33:30Speaker 04

  it might be a good business. But it doesn't have to be zero sum, okay. But again, Bitcoin is, if you're trying to replace global money, if the question is which is the global money, Bitcoin's the global money. It's gonna eat everything, right? If you want to talk about what it's gonna eat, forget about cryptos, there's no money in crypto. Probably the total amount of money invested in all the cryptos since the beginning of time, other than Bitcoin, probably isn't even $50 billion. My company's invested $7 billion. There's not a single person that's publicly disclosed who invested $100 million in any other crypto project in the last decade I can think of.

• 1:34:15Speaker 04

  So, I don't think there is any capital there. The capital is in gold, real estate, art, corporations, the S&P index, and corporate bonds. And so, what's really gonna happen next is Bitcoin is demonetizing gold, silver, it's gonna demonetize a lot of real estate, it's gonna demonetize a whole lot of... Why would you put your money in the S&P index when 493 of the companies are failing? Right? So you talked about demonetization, right? The money, 500 trillion of it, is in the 20th century economy, it's not in the crypto economy. That's what's gonna be attacked next.

• 1:35:00Speaker 06

  After doing the amount of research that you've talked about, in 2017, I made a very large bet, put all of my investable net worth into Tesla. And then in 2020, when COVID hit, I started doing what you said not to do, giving it away. And I put a half million dollars to fund the Denver Basic Income Project. And so as we're making this transition into this new economy, that we're not all sure what it's going to turn out to be, I'm curious about what you think the role is of universal basic income and Bitcoin as maybe a tool to finance that, in the idea of trying to create an economy that works for all, and seeing human capital as a type of capital that we might want to invest in more heavily

• 1:35:45Speaker 06

  as we think about putting our resources into capital.

• 1:35:48Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, the issue of UBI is above my pay grade, so that's an issue which I'm not going to opine on because I'm not an expert, and it's not my area of expertise. With regard to Bitcoin, though, I do think that one of the killer apps of Bitcoin is to endow a charity. So using Bitcoin to power the endo... I'm using Bitcoin to power my nonprofit, which gives away free education. And the promise of Bitcoin is it could do it forever. And so you could power a church, a park, any kind of charitable activity using Bitcoin, because the number one problem they have is they need their endowment to go up over

• 1:36:33Speaker 04

  time. And so anybody that's got any amount of capital, if you're investing it, you're getting a 20% return instead of a 5% return, you're actually going to be able to perpetuate your mission forever.

• 1:36:46Peter Diamandis?

  You know, Bill Ackman had a proposal of like putting $10,000 into the S and P 500 when a child was born, and it would be worth, you know, so many millions of dollars when they're ready for retirement. But I think it's a much sounder, you know, put $10,000 with the government to put it into Bitcoin, and then you don't have any dependencies thereafter, right? And the money is made available after retirement age. You can't touch it.

• 1:37:10Speaker 04

  I gave a pretty famous speech in Madeira where I said Bitcoin is for everybody, everyone. And the point really is...

• 1:37:19Peter Diamandis?

  A lot of crowds cheering for you there.

• 1:37:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, anybody that flies all the way to Madeira to talk about Bitcoin likes Bitcoin. But my point really was, you can power a city, a state, a country, a church, a charity, a nonprofit, a family, a company. You can power any of those things. And if you've seen my other talks, we didn't go into it, but the S&P index is pretty much going up 7% a year for 100 years, and the US dollar currency supply is going up 7% a year for 100 years. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that what you have is a basket of assets

• 1:38:02Speaker 04

  that are holding their value in real terms while they trend up in nominal terms. And that's not awful. I mean, at least you don't get poor. But what you really want is you want somebody to go up 14% in value a year, why that currency supply goes up 7%. And the way you do that is you strip away all the counterparty risk of a company. I mean, you're all in companies, right? If you watch the news, you can see Amazon might get unionized, Apple might get fined, Facebook might get sued, right? I mean, Microsoft has their thing. So corporations are tax surfaces for regulation, taxation, tariff. And that's

• 1:38:45Speaker 04

  why, over 100 years, it's likely that you're not going to be able to do any better than simply keep up with inflation under the best of circumstances. And if you want to power a family or a charity, you need to beat it. You need to grow faster. And now we're back to my phrase, like, doing stuff is highly overrated. You know, Apple's on the iPhone 15. If you have to, you know, if you have to ship the iPhone 99 in the year 2100 in order to not have your stock crash, there's a lot of risk in that. There's a lot of work.

• 1:39:26Peter Diamandis?

  Marina, we're going to you for the final question on Zoom.

• 1:39:30Speaker 13

  My question is really practical and logistical.

• 1:39:37Speaker 13

  So for those of us who have our Bitcoin in self custody, what are your thoughts around the best way of keeping it safe? When we compare something like a cold wallet versus a multi-sig solution like Casa?

• 1:39:50Speaker 04

  I wouldn't feel comfortable giving a particular recommendation on that. I really think that it's a function of who you are, like what stage in your life you are, how technically capable you are, your family situation, your political situation. So I will say this, which is, if you're a retiree and your hands shake and your eyesight's not good and you simply would like to not run out of money or live comfortably, you probably ought to buy IBIT or buy FBTC or buy some Bitcoin ETF through your broker

• 1:40:34Speaker 04

  that you've been dealing with for 40 years. Because the truth is, you're probably not qualified. You probably can't literally type in the keystrokes necessary to recover or manage that and it would be foolish for you to even go there. If you're at a different stage in life, then you might find that the best of all worlds is you buy Bitcoin, but you leave with an institutional custodian with the understanding that on one week's notice, you can self custody if and when you need to or when you lose faith in the counterpart of the custodian, right? And there are a lot of people for which that's the appropriate thing. And then there's another set of people that they would self custody

• 1:41:19Speaker 04

  because they're capable and it's appropriate. And there are a lot of organizations that should. Again, if you're running a company in a certain country where there is no reliable custodian or institutional custodian, it's inappropriate to suggest that the risk of holding Bitcoin at fidelity is the same as the risk of holding Bitcoin at a bank in the middle of a war zone. They're not the same, right? And so you've got extreme differences depending on who you are and where you are. And I think that, but well, I will say the obvious thing, which is when you decide

• 1:42:01Speaker 04

  to go to self custody, you're taking on a much greater responsibility and you need to be technically much more proficient and capable. So you have to put more time in and be prepared to do that if you're going to do it.

• 1:42:18Peter Diamandis?

  Michael, thank you, buddy. Thank you for joining us tonight.

• 1:42:31Speaker 14

  Fall savings are happening now at The Home Depot. Save up to $500 on select appliances. Plus, enjoy free delivery when you spend $998 or more. From prepping to cooking to cleaning up, Frigidaire has you covered. The Custom Flex Temp Drawer Switches from fridge to freezer. With more than 15 cooking modes, including stone baked pizza mode, you can enjoy restaurant quality pizza in as little as two minutes. Then clean up with the Frigidaire Dishwasher, featuring the industry's fastest normal wash cycle. Shop fall savings now at The Home Depot. Off and valid through October 21st. U.S. only.