Ep. 799: Doc Holliday, Wyatt Earp, and the Booze-Fueled Bender that Ended at OK Corral

Steven Rinella https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella/?hl=en talks with author Mark Lee Gardner https://www.instagram.com/mark_lee_gardner/#, Brody Henderson https://www.instagram.com/brodyjhenderson/?hl=en, Randall Williams https://www.instagram.com/randall__williams/?hl=en, Phil Taylor https://www.instagram.com/philtaylor25/?hl=en, and Corinne Schneider https://www.instagram.com/corinnesschneider/. Topics discussed: Mark Lee Gardner' https://songofthewest.com/s brand new book: Brothers of the Gun: Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, and a Reckoning in Tombstone https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/711805/brothers-of-the-gun-by-mark-lee-gardner/; having a deep love for estate sales and rare books; insights into cowboy hats; being the author of interpretive guides for National Park historic sites; Old West cliches; “I’ll be your huckleberry”; the friendship between Wyatt Earp and Doc Holiday; a brothel on a boat; Steve’s celiac theory; drifters; outlaws and lawmen; robbing trains; a play-by-play of the OK Corral gun fight; a performance by Mark on banjo https://songofthewest.com/music; and much more. Connect with Steve https://www.themeateater.com/authors/steven-rinella and The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Steve on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella and Twitter https://twitter.com/stevenrinella?lang=en MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:34Steven Rinella?

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• 2:02Steven Rinella?

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• 2:53Steven Rinella?

  This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless severely bug bitten and in my case underwearless. We can hunt.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  The Meat Eater Podcast.

• 3:03Speaker 03

  You can't predict anything.

• 3:04Steven Rinella?

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• 3:28Steven Rinella?

  Joined today by author Mark Lee Gardner, expert on all things Wild West. But first, the Bob Cratchit Report.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  Do you think the audience as looks forward to the Bob Cratchit Report every, every Monday?

• 3:42Steven Rinella?

  That's the thing I've been worried about.

• 3:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:44Steven Rinella?

  That maybe no one cares.

• 3:45Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 3:46Steven Rinella?

  As much as I care.

• 3:48Speaker 04

  I think you're on to something there.

• 3:50Steven Rinella?

  Well, how's it going? How's, how's it going as Bob Cratchit? Just real quick. Phil's just so everybody knows, people just discovering the show. Phil is, um, he's, uh, he's been cast in the Christmas Carol.

• 4:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's true. We just.

• 4:05Steven Rinella?

  Tiny Tim's dad.

• 4:06Speaker 04

  Tiny Tim's dad. Rehearsals are rolling. They're going well. Uh, it's always fun watching, watching it come together. You know, it's, it's show business, baby. Uh, we're, we're. I don't have a whole lot to add, Steve, if you can, in case you.

• 4:19Steven Rinella?

  Do you get like groupies?

• 4:21Speaker 04

  Groupies?

• 4:22Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 4:23Speaker 04

  Theater groupies?

• 4:24Steven Rinella?

  Like girls that want to come talk to you?

• 4:26Speaker 04

  Uh, I, I, the first time someone asked me to sign their program in the alley behind the theater, I was taken. I was, I was taken aback.

• 4:33Steven Rinella?

  He was getting mugged.

• 4:36Speaker 04

  They, they do exist, but they are, they are very, they are few and far between. Yeah.

• 4:40Speaker 03

  Phil, do you use a special Bob Cratchit voice in the show?

• 4:44Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. How do you say stuff?

• 4:45Speaker 04

  Uh, I do, I do have an English accent.

• 4:47Steven Rinella?

  Oh, I think you guys could just not do that.

• 4:50Speaker 04

  You just think we should go full American, just spanning all different regions of, of the United States?

• 4:54Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Like I was saying, you would do US currency.

• 4:57Speaker 04

  US, yep, because that's confusing.

• 4:59Steven Rinella?

  And just have, have you ever watched Death of Stalin?

• 5:03Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, that's, uh, the, the guy from, who created Veep did that.

• 5:06Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Phenomenal movie. But everybody just talks like how they talk. They're not all trying to have that, like that Boris. Like do the accent you do when you're a Russian in a movie.

• 5:16Speaker 04

  I, I've never, I've never been a Russian in a movie, but it's.

• 5:21Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. They don't, they don't do all that.

• 5:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:23Steven Rinella?

  And it's like Steve Buscemi, but he talks like he's Steve Buscemi.

• 5:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's good. I, I, I think you are, are masking your love for theater and spectacle. You, you, you try to direct it towards me. Uh, but this is just a way for you to share all of your ideas that you have for how to, how to just create a great theater production. I think you're in the wrong line of work, frankly, Steve.

• 5:45Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that's true. Cause you know what? My wife points out to me a lot of times, a lot of times I'll, I'll yell at my kids. About something and she's like, you're talking through the kids to me. This is me you're talking to. Cause I can get away with that, but I can't get away with saying it to her. So I'll say it to them in her presence.

• 6:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:03Steven Rinella?

  Like who left all this laying everywhere, but I know it's her.

• 6:05Speaker 04

  My wife does the exact same thing to me.

• 6:07Speaker 03

  I, I hate to tell you this, but that might be a universal tactic because I tend to do the same thing.

• 6:14Steven Rinella?

  They're like mom did, oh, oh, it was mom. Okay. Okay. Just don't like to see that. Just make sure it's not you guys.

• 6:24Speaker 05

  By the time this airs, you and I will probably be coordinating our outfits for.

• 6:30Steven Rinella?

  To go see Bob Cratchit.

• 6:32Speaker 05

  The matinee.

• 6:32Steven Rinella?

  I'm gonna have a sign that says, "I'm here for Cratchit."

• 6:35Speaker 05

  Love it.

• 6:37Steven Rinella?

  Mark Lee Gardner is the author, historian of the West, musician. I didn't know this. Turkey hunting enthusiast?

• 6:43Speaker 05

  I'm an addict.

• 6:44Steven Rinella?

  Seriously?

• 6:44Speaker 05

  Yes. Every spring.

• 6:47Steven Rinella?

  Huh. Rare book collector.

• 6:50Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 6:52Steven Rinella?

  And I heard that you compete with Randall in the state sales.

• 6:55Speaker 05

  I do, yes. If there's one, if there's one today, I'll be there, right?

• 6:59Steven Rinella?

  Ooh.

• 6:59Speaker 05

  But they're usually not on Tuesdays.

• 7:01Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Author of many books. You know, you know what I liked that you did a lot? You did that thing where you, what's that thing called where you do like, you take questions, like Wild West questions? It's on, it's on, uh, what the hell was that?

• 7:13Speaker 06

  Wired.

• 7:14Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, Wired. Where you like field, you're like the help line and you field Wild West questions? Dude, you got a lot of breadth when it comes to Wild West history. Like good Wild West details.

• 7:26Speaker 05

  Well, thanks, yeah.

• 7:28Steven Rinella?

  Uh, here's some of Mark's books. What are we sitting here right in front, right here we got, in front of me, I got, Shot All to Hell, Jesse James, The Northfield Raid and the Wild West Greatest Escape. Um, we got Brothers of the Gun, sitting in front of us. Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, And a Reckoning in Tombstone. Also the author of Wagon for the Santa Fe Trade. That sounds very detailed.

• 7:54Speaker 05

  It's very detailed. I think it sold like 300 copies. It's, it's very specific. It's the definitive book on wagons.

• 8:02Steven Rinella?

  But that's like, that's like, but that's like hard history.

• 8:04Speaker 05

  Hard history. It's, that's what they call a material culture study, yeah.

• 8:07Steven Rinella?

  Okay. And, and explain that to folks real quick. Like what, what will they learn in that book, Wagon for the Santa Fe?

• 8:12Speaker 05

  So they're gonna learn what the freight wagons look like, what they were made out of, and how the styles changed from the 1820s up to when the trail ended in 1880. How many mules, you know, what weight, you know, they'd average 6,000 pounds or three tons. I mean, you know, the dimensions, all from primary sources, newspaper accounts. And it was the, actually the first study of freight wagons. And it came about because the Santa Fe Trail was made a national historic trail by the Park Service. But, um, it's also the only book on Santa Fe Trail freight wagons, so.

• 8:45Steven Rinella?

  You got To Hell on a Fast Horse, The Untold Story of Billy the Kid and Pat Garrett.

• 8:51Steven Rinella?

  That's a good one. We talked about shot all to hell. You got a book on Roosevelt?

• 8:55Speaker 05

  I do, on the Rough Riders.

• 8:57Steven Rinella?

  Rough Riders. Theodore Roosevelt, his cowboy regiment, and the immortal charge of San Juan Hill. And a book, um, on one of my personal favorite subjects. I'm kind of a little big horned Edmund Fitzgerald guy.

• 9:13Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 9:14Steven Rinella?

  I think I might do a shirt where it's the Edmund Fitzgerald, but Custer's on it.

• 9:21Speaker 05

  Combining.

• 9:22Steven Rinella?

  Just bringing everything together.

• 9:24Speaker 05

  It would be the only shirt like that in the world.

• 9:28Steven Rinella?

  That, that book, I haven't read yours on this, but I'd like to. The Earth is All That Lasts. Crazy Horse Sitting Bull and the Last Stand of the Great Sioux Nation. Does that cover like the, the summer of 76?

• 9:40Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have a whole chapter on just the battle itself, but it's their, it's their life story. It's a dual biography of both these Lakota leaders, but, but yeah, I have a lot of information about the battle. And I just stopped there on the way up here, actually, yesterday.

• 9:53Steven Rinella?

  Isn't it haunted, man? It's haunted, dude. It's one of those few places. Speaking of like, like if you're in Whitefish Bay, you can feel the Edmund Fitzgerald. If you're on Last Stand Hill, you can feel it. It's like you can feel it. I cried on Last Stand Hill, first time I went there. I went there on the anniversary.

• 10:15Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 10:16Steven Rinella?

  My buddy Seth got married on the anniversary, different time.

• 10:18Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 10:19Steven Rinella?

  Not him, that's Brody.

• 10:21Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 10:23Speaker 03

  Although, I got a couple ancestors that were in that back.

• 10:28Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. If you look at the dead, Brody's all over that.

• 10:30Speaker 05

  Oh, wow. Well, it's a very moving sight. I completely agree with you. I mean,

• 10:35Steven Rinella?

  Oh, it's haunted.

• 10:35Speaker 05

  Especially if you're, if you can go there, you know, they're open. Well, they used to be, who knows now, but they used to be open till, uh, dusk, the sunset, and no, nobody's there then. And you just stand on Last Stand Hill or, or go to Reno Hill. You know, it's just a very moving, uh, you know, just a neat experience.

• 10:52Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. A lot of suffering that day, but you know, the thing you can't get over is, um,

• 10:59Steven Rinella?

  just the absolute exuberance that must have been felt by the, the Northern Cheyenne.

• 11:08Steven Rinella?

  In the Sioux, to be like, just after like, all these just stunning defeats and massacres, to just that one day, one time, just

• 11:20Speaker 05

  Well, and

• 11:21Steven Rinella?

  Bring it to them. You know what I mean? Like, how good for them, how good that day must have felt.

• 11:27Speaker 05

  I think you're absolutely right, but also, it was a tremendous relief. I mean, these soldiers had come to kill them. I mean, they had families and children in the village, and they had protected. I mean, that was the reason they were fighting. It wasn't just to get a victory over the white man, but those soldiers were gonna hurt them, and they were protecting their families and their mothers and sisters.

• 11:49Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 11:49Speaker 05

  And they did it. And then, there's all this booty they got, you know, Springfield carbines and Colt revolvers. Of course, Sitting Bull had warned them in his vision, that they weren't supposed to take anything from the soldiers. And if they did, it would mean they're doomed. But they disobeyed the vision, and some Lakotas feel that that was the downfall of their people. But yeah, the vision told them, do not take booty, do not take souvenirs or whatever. But how could you help, you know, not help? There's all this stuff, ammunition and horses. And so, yeah, they took plenty of booty.

• 12:24Steven Rinella?

  Uh, have you ever read The Account of Wooden Leg?

• 12:27Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. It's one of the best accounts, Cheyenne accounts.

• 12:31Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. He, uh, like, he leaves the battlefield.

• 12:37Steven Rinella?

  He like, face scalped a guy at the battlefield, tried to give it to his mom or grandma. She didn't want it, like a sideburn scalpel.

• 12:45Steven Rinella?

  Splits. They all take off.

• 12:48Steven Rinella?

  The cavalry, the other, the survivors, the surviving cavalry guys come up, they like scour the whole battlefield, bury everyone. Wooden Leg and his buddies go off to the west to go hunt for crow Indians.

• 13:05Steven Rinella?

  They like, they don't find any crow. They find like one family and decide not to kill them. For some reason, he doesn't explain why they decided not to kill them. And then they come back to the battlefield to, to get stuff that they remember that they didn't grab at the time. To like, if I remember right, there should be a few shells over here. Or I remember like I threw a belt down in the bushes there and they like, were kind of like coming back through. Looking for stuff. Just wild.

• 13:34Speaker 05

  Well, they were finding stuff at the battle. I mean, for decades, I mean, they were still finding stuff that had been lost and, you know, maybe a, an arroyo washes out and they find a canteen and one guy, I mean, this was involved a court case. Uh, it was like maybe in the 1960s or 70s, found a pair of binoculars.

• 13:52Steven Rinella?

  You're kidding me.

• 13:53Speaker 05

  Yeah. And then of course, he told people about it and, uh, he was arrested and it was, it was a huge.

• 14:00Steven Rinella?

  No kidding.

• 14:00Speaker 05

  Yeah. You're not supposed to take anything for the National Park Service sites or federal lands. So.

• 14:05Steven Rinella?

  Have you read Plainsman of the Yellowstone?

• 14:07Speaker 05

  Yes, but it's been a long time. So.

• 14:09Steven Rinella?

  It's a hell of a book. But there's an interesting take, like, like I said, I've always been a big little bighorn buff, you know?

• 14:16Steven Rinella?

  In Plainsman of the Yellowstone, he treats it like, uh, he's like, lot of, like to, to summarize his view.

• 14:27Steven Rinella?

  He, he's like, you know, everybody loves it. Everybody writes books about it. It didn't matter. It was a non-event. It was a non-event. This all landed where it was going to land where it landed. They were gonna kill them all and bring them on to reservations and they did. And it's a non-event. It was just a nothing. Like, if you look at like what actually matters, he's like, it's just, it's a thing that historians love to talk about, but it didn't matter.

• 14:55Speaker 05

  The only reason it's it's huge, of course, is because the guy that was killed, George Custer, right? I mean, the Civil War, I mean, truly an amazing soldier in the Civil War. I mean, he earned all the accolades that he got, and he's this darling, you know, the American Army.

• 15:10Steven Rinella?

  Michigan man.

• 15:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, he, uh, the Michigan Brigade, the Fighting Wolverines, all that stuff. So, uh, but anyway, yeah, I mean, if it had been some other officer, maybe it wouldn't have been as big a deal or as covered as widely as it was, but it was Custer. Um, you know, the guy that had this amazing, uh, reputation. He had fought Indians before at the Washtata. So, you know, the story about, um, they, no one knew who he was, the Lakos and Cheyennes didn't know it was George Custer.

• 15:41Steven Rinella?

  Well, that's contested.

• 15:42Speaker 05

  It is contested a little bit, but some of them-

• 15:43Steven Rinella?

  There's a Cheyenne woman that, there's a Southern Cheyenne woman that, uh, was visiting and was there. She said she recognized him.

• 15:57Speaker 05

  She did. That's in my book, actually. Yeah, yeah. She, she, they were going to scalp and mutilate him, and she said, "No, no, stop. That's, that's, he's the husband of Monocita, uh, who, you know, she claimed that Custer had married." Uh, but anyway-

• 16:12Steven Rinella?

  And it was her that took the sewing awl-

• 16:13Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 16:14Steven Rinella?

  And punctured his eardrums, right?

• 16:16Speaker 05

  Yes, yeah, because that goes back to when he, after the Washtata in Oklahoma, he met with some Cheyenne leaders, and one of the Cheyenne leaders dumped some ashes from his pipe, you know, on his boots, and he said that was so that he would remember next time, you know, he'd keep his promise that he would not go against their people or whatever. And, and so the reason for puncturing the awl into his eardrum was so that he would hear better in the other world.

• 16:40Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. And I think she said, um, "Maybe I kicked dirt up on him with my horse."

• 16:49Steven Rinella?

  I think that's something she said. She was like speculating that could have happened.

• 16:53Speaker 05

  But you know, he was, um, he wasn't apparently, you know, he had like a fingertip cut off and, but he wasn't mutilated like all the other bodies. I mean, Tom Custer was just unrecognizable. Um, and the idea behind that was that in the land of ghosts, you know, what you did to them in this world, that's how they would be in the land of ghosts.

• 17:12Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. There's that move of like slap, make it so you can't run.

• 17:15Speaker 05

  Sure. Yeah.

• 17:16Steven Rinella?

  Make it so you can't shoot.

• 17:17Speaker 05

  You're ugly.

• 17:18Steven Rinella?

  Make it so you can't make love.

• 17:19Speaker 05

  Right. So, uh, but no, he was apparently it was very, you know, uh, in, in good shape.

• 17:26Steven Rinella?

  I believe there was two guys that weren't touched. One guy was under a pile of dead horses. So it doesn't seem like they found him. And the other guy was Captain Keo. And Captain Keo had on a, uh, he, he, he was some, I don't know, something like branch of Catholicism. I can't remember what the hell it was. And he had on some, uh, he had on some kind of emblem, some kind of jewelry.

• 17:54Steven Rinella?

  That in all this stuff is like, it's everybody contradicts everybody. You know what I mean? It's like so and so said this, so and so says that. So and so says no one recognized them. So and so says they recognized them. Either way, he had this thing on this, this religious piece.

• 18:09Speaker 05

  I think he was in a papal guard at one time or something and it might've been, had to do with that. I can't remember.

• 18:14Steven Rinella?

  Anyways, they're like, he might be, they felt that he might be some kind of religious figure. And didn't mess with him.

• 18:20Speaker 05

  Well, he was a highly respected officer. He was one of the more well-liked officers in the seventh cavalry.

• 18:26Steven Rinella?

  I think his horse is the only thing that survived.

• 18:27Speaker 05

  Comanche. Well, the Lakotas in Cheyenne survived.

• 18:31Steven Rinella?

  I'm sorry. I'm the only like, yeah, the only, I shouldn't say the only thing that survived. What am I trying to say?

• 18:36Speaker 05

  Of, of the men with Custer, um, and their horses, I guess.

• 18:40Steven Rinella?

  And they wound up stuffing that horse and there was.

• 18:41Speaker 05

  They did. You can go see it in Lawrence, Kansas.

• 18:44Steven Rinella?

  Is that where it is?

• 18:45Speaker 05

  It's at the natural history museum.

• 18:47Steven Rinella?

  Is it on display?

• 18:48Speaker 05

  Yes. Oh yeah. And they've, they, not too long ago, they kind of refurbished, uh, Comanche. Uh, but no, yeah. So he's there because he was at Fort Riley in his last years in Kansas. And, uh, and yeah, he's fully, it's mounted and he's got a, you know, McCullin saddle and, uh, yeah, yeah.

• 19:05Steven Rinella?

  And, uh, he, he had some arrow holes in him and some bullet holes. I think he was crippled up pretty good.

• 19:09Speaker 05

  He was. Yeah. I mean, he was, but apparently he was, they felt he would survive. He was in good enough shape. Um, so, uh, yeah. So they, they made sure they kept him. Took it back.

• 19:20Steven Rinella?

  This has nothing to do with that. We'll get on with this in a minute, but when, after all the buffalo were killed off, we were talking about this in our Hyde Hunters thing. After all the buffalo were killed off, you know, Horn today came out to do, to put together a museum collection. And he comes out and starts scouring the country between the Yellowstone, Missouri and Eastern Montana, trying to find museum specimens, works his ass off, can't find any, but the biggest bull he finds that he kills for the museum, he kills it. It's already carrying four slugs in it.

• 19:53Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 19:54Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Already carrying them.

• 19:59Steven Rinella?

  So they can put up with something.

• 20:00Speaker 05

  You know, Theodore Roosevelt went into the Badlands. He would just had to kill a buffalo, you know, and, and later he becomes, you know, later he was wanting to preserve the buffalo, but he did it after, after he got his buffalo, then it's time to preserve him.

• 20:15Steven Rinella?

  He's like, yeah, preservation starts now. He killed two. The second one, he regretted a little bit. I think. He killed one in, uh, Midora, right? Outside of Midora. Then killed one outside the park somewhere, I believe, didn't he? Randall? Randall's got a PhD in history.

• 20:30Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 20:30Steven Rinella?

  Do you got, do you got one of those?

• 20:32Speaker 05

  No, I don't, no.

• 20:33Steven Rinella?

  His is right up there. It's a smaller one underneath my very big one.

• 20:36Speaker 05

  Oh, nice.

• 20:39Speaker 05

  Nice.

• 20:40Steven Rinella?

  Look at that.

• 20:41Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's almost like a to scale replica.

• 20:45Speaker 05

  I don't even know why you have that there.

• 20:50Steven Rinella?

  Cause like guests like you come in will get intimidated.

• 20:52Speaker 05

  Oh, okay. All right.

• 20:54Steven Rinella?

  You'd be like, oh. You know, with the big guns now.

• 20:58Speaker 07

  Yours is a nice frame.

• 21:02Speaker 05

  You could enlarge it.

• 21:04Speaker 07

  Yeah, I know. I should just photocopy it.

• 21:07Speaker 05

  enlarge it.

• 21:08Steven Rinella?

  I, I want to get into your books, but can we hit you with some, cause when you did that thing for Wired where you answer old west questions? Can we hit you with some old west questions?

• 21:15Speaker 05

  You gave me some old west questions. I don't know if I'll have the answer, but I'll try.

• 21:18Steven Rinella?

  Is there any reason to believe? Is there any reason whatsoever to believe that people would, uh, that any, is there like a famous case example of someone getting shot and falling over a balcony rail?

• 21:31Steven Rinella?

  Do you know what I mean? That is such a like trope of westerns.

• 21:37Speaker 05

  I can't.

• 21:38Steven Rinella?

  Is there like a famous story that inspires all those scenes?

• 21:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, nothing famous. I mean, there may, you know, this may have happened sometime in the old west, but I'm not aware of any famous.

• 21:47Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 21:48Speaker 05

  Incident.

• 21:48Steven Rinella?

  So just they just like it and it became like a, it became a trope and.

• 21:51Speaker 05

  I think so, yeah.

• 21:53Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 21:54Speaker 05

  Now I'll probably get lots of emails. Oh, yeah, you know, Frank James knocked that guy off the balcony. No, I don't know of any famous case.

• 22:03Steven Rinella?

  Were those doors, the swinging doors? Was that a thing?

• 22:08Speaker 05

  Well, I got in trouble for that. So I didn't think it was.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  What do they call them? Bat wing doors?

• 22:13Speaker 05

  Yes. And, and I, you know, I looked at historic photos and could not find, you know, these swinging doors. But apparently they were used late in the 19th century. But for instance, there's an episode with Doc Holliday and, and it gets really nerdy. But, you know, Doc Holliday got into a gunfight, a minor gunfight in Leadville. And it's in this saloon and it talks about this guy walking in the door. You know, so it's like, well, it wasn't, you know, these swinging doors. He walked in a door. Yeah. And it had glass in it, so, uh.

• 22:46Steven Rinella?

  You don't picture anyone knocking.

• 22:47Speaker 05

  No, yeah, but anyway, uh, but apparently there were, you know, late in the 19th century, you did start to see them introduced. And the idea was behind it. Um, they didn't want like children looking in, being able to see in, you know, in the summertime.

• 23:01Steven Rinella?

  That's what that is?

• 23:02Speaker 05

  So it kind of blocks their view and also lets some air in because I'm sure it was filled full of cigar smoke and.

• 23:08Steven Rinella?

  I was gonna say, it seems like a seasonable, a seasonal.

• 23:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:12Steven Rinella?

  Style.

• 23:12Speaker 05

  And then a lot of these salo- that had the, the swinging doors, they had both doors. They had a door you could close, but also they had the swinging doors as well. So like you say, in the summer.

• 23:21Steven Rinella?

  It's like a little privacy screen.

• 23:23Speaker 05

  It's kind of a privacy screen, yeah. But I just don't see it prevalent like in the 1870s Dodge City or Wichita. I just, I have not seen any evidence that it was.

• 23:31Steven Rinella?

  That's a good idea to look at all those old photos and do you see them or not?

• 23:34Speaker 05

  Exactly, yeah. And, uh, go through the newspaper account. I mean, you could even go through advertisements in historic newspapers and say, oh. Yeah, here's the new swinging door you need for your ceiling or whatever. So.

• 23:44Steven Rinella?

  But that doesn't exist or it does exist?

• 23:45Speaker 05

  Well, it does exist. I oh, they mean the ads?

• 23:47Steven Rinella?

  The ads.

• 23:48Speaker 05

  No, I have not come across. But apparently there are patents for these kind of spring loaded hinges. Uh, I haven't seen them, but I've been told that there's actually patents that were done. So if they swing back and forth. I mean, you would have to have something, you know, to make it do that, I guess.

• 24:04Steven Rinella?

  If I ever build a house from scratch or do a big remodel, I was already planning on putting in a urinal.

• 24:09Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 24:11Steven Rinella?

  Do them damn doors.

• 24:12Speaker 05

  There you go. Yeah. Okay.

• 24:15Speaker 03

  What kind of urinal? Like a trough or like, like, like a communal one or? It's kind of the airport. Standalone?

• 24:22Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, like kind of the airport.

• 24:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:23Steven Rinella?

  Next to the toilet.

• 24:24Speaker 05

  I've actually been in restrooms and houses that had those swinging doors or whatever. Yeah.

• 24:29Steven Rinella?

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:29Speaker 05

  I have.

• 24:29Steven Rinella?

  But see, I want to create tension where I'm gonna have a very modern home, but old swinging doors.

• 24:34Speaker 05

  Okay. All right.

• 24:35Steven Rinella?

  Do you know what I mean? Like it'll like, like it creates a power balance between the two motifs.

• 24:40Speaker 05

  For the bedroom. That would be good. Right?

• 24:42Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 24:43Speaker 05

  Kitchen.

• 24:43Steven Rinella?

  That's a great idea. Okay, uh, Kryn was, Kryn was saying you got some insights into, um, you got some insights into cowboy hats.

• 24:54Speaker 06

  Oh, yes.

• 24:54Speaker 05

  Oh, okay.

• 24:55Steven Rinella?

  Cowboy hats.

• 24:56Speaker 05

  What do you want to know?

• 24:57Steven Rinella?

  Like, did everybody, okay, let's.

• 24:59Speaker 05

  Oh, gotcha. Yeah.

• 25:00Steven Rinella?

  Like, what would you regard to be? I, I know you've said in the past, someone said like, when did the Wild West end? And you thought the Wild West ended with the car.

• 25:09Speaker 05

  I wouldn't, when you don't see horses on the streets anymore, that seems to me that that era is gone, you know, so.

• 25:16Steven Rinella?

  When, when it was like that, that you were just pointing out, there's ways people define.

• 25:20Speaker 05

  Yes, exactly. Yeah.

• 25:22Steven Rinella?

  Some people will say like barbed wire.

• 25:23Speaker 05

  Right.

• 25:24Steven Rinella?

  Like the open range closed.

• 25:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:26Steven Rinella?

  Land was owned, it was fenced, the, the West died. And you had a, you had a take that like you view it like when the horse ceases to be the primary mode of transportation.

• 25:37Speaker 05

  Yeah. And that, and it, I just think the horse is so interwoven with the American West. I mean, uh, you know, cowboys and, you know, buggies, you know, and mules, of course, pulling wagon. I mean, when you don't see that kind of, those animals as transportation, I mean, that's so associated with the West. I mean, You don't have a cowboy without a horse.

• 25:59Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 25:59Speaker 05

  I mean, there's no cowboys that are just a foot. I mean, they're on horseback and same with the Plains Indians. I mean, their, their mobility is because of the horse. And so when the horse is not part of that fabric, I just see that as kind of the, the end of what you could call the old west. Now, you could argue is that 1930s? I mean, 1940s because you know, you's in some places in Wyoming and Montana, I'm sure people are still riding their horses into town. Sure. In the 1940s, maybe even the 50s.

• 26:26Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they're all like working on the Manhattan project and dudes are riding around on horses.

• 26:30Speaker 06

  Twenty minutes from here, I saw a guy get off his horse and go to Stacy's right in Gallatin Gateway.

• 26:37Steven Rinella?

  Was he being cute?

• 26:39Speaker 06

  No, I don't think he, I think he had the proper jeans and the proper boots. So.

• 26:44Speaker 03

  And his driver's license was suspended?

• 26:51Steven Rinella?

  I like to play that game wherever we see an adult on a bicycle.

• 26:56Steven Rinella?

  What are those little scooter? You know, those little like hover, no hoverboard segways? Yeah, but there's no handlebars on one of those.

• 27:04Speaker 05

  Those are called hoverboards.

• 27:06Steven Rinella?

  The hoverboards, yeah. They're a day, just not far from here on a caggy. There's a guy going down the road on one of those with a white cowboy hat on the phone.

• 27:19Speaker 06

  Taking a picture of that and sent it to Hipster's.

• 27:23Steven Rinella?

  No, he wasn't like he, no.

• 27:25Speaker 05

  Oh, I hate the world.

• 27:27Steven Rinella?

  Wasn't a hipster vibe. I was getting more of a crazy guy vibe. I love everything about it. I was like.

• 27:34Speaker 05

  A local eccentric.

• 27:35Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 27:39Steven Rinella?

  I'm trying to weigh stereotypes to the reality real quick. Just got to have a handful of these.

• 27:44Steven Rinella?

  You go, go to, let's pick a year, 1870. Okay. Is it really like in 1870s? Is it really that like there is? The wide brimmed hat and that's like it. No, everyone, all men wear a hat and all men wear a cowboy style hat.

• 28:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't think so.

• 28:03Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 28:04Speaker 05

  No, I don't. I mean, you know, your cowboys in the seventies, they're going to have some kind of a wide brimmed hat, but I think that there, if you look at historic photos, there's a lot of variety, even into how they wear them. I mean, you know, some guys have their hats tilted up.

• 28:18Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 28:19Speaker 05

  Um, I mean, you know, the, well, the crowns are creased. I mean, there's just a lot of difference. Uh, so I just don't think you can say there's one standard. Uh, you can probably look at what's.

• 28:29Steven Rinella?

  I mean, the, I, I, I mean, the broader family.

• 28:32Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 28:32Steven Rinella?

  Of like, like a hat.

• 28:36Speaker 08

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• 29:06Steven Rinella?

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• 29:51Steven Rinella?

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• 30:43Steven Rinella?

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• 31:27Steven Rinella?

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• 31:48Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 31:49Steven Rinella?

  A hat that a tourist would buy on vacation.

• 31:50Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 31:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's pretty standard.

• 31:52Steven Rinella?

  It's like, like when you leave home in 1870, if you're a man, you're not bald, you don't like, you're not hatless.

• 31:59Speaker 05

  No, no, no, the hat is, yeah, very common. Now, a little bit later, you have the introduction of the bowler hat, the derby hat, or, or whatever. And there was a story about. Um, in Tombstone, if somebody came in wearing a derby hat that Doc Holliday would go around with a triangle ringing a bell behind him and kinda harassing them or whatever, cause they stuck out, you know, they were a little bit-

• 32:20Steven Rinella?

  Well, what was he calling them out about?

• 32:21Speaker 05

  I think because they were like a newbie or like a dude or, you know, it's just maybe a little uppity or something, you're wearing this kinda latest fashion and so he's going around. But, you know, apparently he was reported as wearing a derby hat later, a few years later, so I don't know how, you know, if that- What does it look like? It's a bow- you, you, you, I'm sure you're-

• 32:39Steven Rinella?

  Like, the lot of the later gunfighters had those kinda-

• 32:42Speaker 03

  Well, often there's like an English villain in the cowboy movies that wears a bow-

• 32:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, and you know, Bat- Masterson, I think there's a photo of him wearing a derby hat, you know, later in his career.

• 32:53Speaker 03

  Did they all wear slip-on cowboy boots with jangly metal spurs that announced their presence?

• 32:59Speaker 05

  Um, well, they definitely wore cowboy boots, you know, and they could go up to the knee. Um, there's different styles of those boots. One of the more interesting to me is what they call a mule ear boot, have you heard of this? So, on the sides, instead of having the leather loops that you would pull up, there's a long leather strap on each side that you could grab onto and pull you, they called them mule ear, uh, boots, you could pull them on-

• 33:24Steven Rinella?

  Just a, just a strap, not a loop?

• 33:25Speaker 05

  Just a strap, yeah, a long strap, maybe like that long, that you would grab hold of, those were fairly popular.

• 33:30Steven Rinella?

  And then you tuck them inside?

• 33:31Speaker 05

  No, you leave them on the outside, they're flapping on the outside.

• 33:33Steven Rinella?

  Oh, hence the name, mule ears.

• 33:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, there's different theories, uh, in the E, I mean, these boots, you know, they, they could, they could be very tall, they go up to the knee or whatever, and you're out on the range and you, their boots are sweaty when you take them off at night, they get wet, and, you know, it might be a little nicer to have something to really grab a hold of to pull those on.

• 33:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 05

  Um, you know, the story of Billy the Kid, the night he was killed, and he was in his stocking feet, and a lot of people think that, oh, you know, he would never walk across that parade ground in his stocking feet, and, uh, and it's like, do you wanna pull your boots back on after you've taken them off, you've been in them all day, and no, it might be easier to just walk over here across the corridor and get that slab of meat and, uh, just leave the boots behind, so.

• 34:18Steven Rinella?

  You know, when he went over, when Billy the Kid went over to get a chunk of meat off that thing, like, what was the sort of situation? What like, is it just sort of matter of course that there's a that there's a side of beef hanging in the courtyard?

• 34:33Speaker 05

  Well, no, it's not a matter of course, but he had been told, so he gets in really late to this house at Fort Sumner, this adobe building and he's hungry and the woman in the house, who is Pat Garrett's sister-in-law.

• 34:46Steven Rinella?

  His Billy the Kid's girlfriend though.

• 34:48Speaker 05

  Uh, there's some dispute on whether she was the girlfriend. The family says that they were not boyfriend-girlfriend. Um, so we don't know for sure, but he was staying there and she had a husband who was there too, so. Uh, but anyway, she tells him that there's a side of beef hanging over at Pete Maxwell's place. So that's why he goes over there with the butcher knife and his gun, cause if he gets the meat, she was gonna cook it up for him. And then that's where, you know, he meets Garrett's two guards or deputies, I should say, are outside and they don't know what's they don't know what Billy the Kid looks like and they just, they think he's a ranch hand or he works for Pete Maxwell. But as soon as Billy approaches them, he sees these guys in the shadows and he pulls his gun right away. And he's going, K and S, K and S, you know, who is it?

• 35:32Speaker 05

  And John Poe, one of the deputies is saying, okay, calm down, friend, you know, we're, we're not gonna hurt you or whatever, yeah, and but they don't know it's Billy and that's when he gets up on the porch, he backs into the room. Pat Garrett is on the side of Maxwell's bed and he recognizes Billy's voice as does Pete Maxwell. He says that's him. And Pat Garrett, now here's the thing, you know, people are always on Pat Garrett's like, oh, you shot, you didn't give Billy a chance to kill you. You know, well, you know, Billy the Kid had said he was gonna kill Pat Garrett the next time he saw him. Uh, and he'd already killed a Lincoln County sheriff and a Lincoln County deputy. And why would Pat Garrett give this guy a chance? You know, it's like, it was Billy the Kid, so he shoots right away.

• 36:11Steven Rinella?

  Sure.

• 36:12Speaker 05

  The first shot gets him in the heart, uh, and then he fires a second shot, you know, there's, there's, it's a moonlit night, but if, if you fired a Colt revolver, black powder smoke, I mean, this smoke fills the room and so he fires right away, you know, you wanna make sure he got him, but of course Billy had already clashed, so then he runs out. And Pete Maxwell runs out and they almost shoot Pete Maxwell, the deputies, because, you know, these guys are outside, they hear a gunshot and they don't know what's Going on and anyway, uh, they said, don't, don't shoot. That's Pete, you know, whatever. And then they get a, they light a candle, put it in the window and they see his body inside and they've got Billy the Kid. But, but anyway, Pat Garrett was saying is, Pat Garrett wrote a book later called The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid. And he says, people have accused me of hiding behind a couch. And he says, if there'd been a couch, I would have been hiding behind it.

• 36:57Speaker 05

  Why would I, you know, I'm not an idiot, you know?

• 36:59Steven Rinella?

  Oh, that, that, yeah, but that whole thing of like, uh, being a chivalrous around shooting. I mean, the way we hit dudes now. We do it from outer space.

• 37:10Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:13Speaker 05

  Well, this is.

• 37:14Steven Rinella?

  No, I mean, it's like, you know, you're just driving down the road in your car. You don't, it's not like someone comes out and is like, stick them up.

• 37:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, or in your boat. But, uh, well, here's Steve, here's the thing about that. It's like, um, and I think what's so amazing about Wyatt Earp. I mean, most of his job or a lot of his job was disarming drunken cowboys. I mean, there were these laws in these towns, you know, whether it was Wichita or Dodge City, you can't carry a gun. And so today, I mean, you can go to YouTube and if a policeman sees a gun, they shout gun and the fireworks start, you know? I mean, you're going to be dead, but Wyatt Earp went up to these guys and, uh, he would physically disarm them. And usually his technique, he was hit him in the head with the, you know, the barrel of his revolver. But he was so close quarters time and again in disarming these guys.

• 38:03Speaker 05

  And, you know, he had no training. There was no police academy then, uh, to go to.

• 38:08Steven Rinella?

  Could go on YouTube and.

• 38:08Speaker 05

  No, you know, there was, you, you, nobody knew about karate or whatever. I mean, it's like, he had to physically disarm him. And I tell you, lots of officers got killed disarming cowboys. So Ed Masterson, he was the, uh, the sheriff, uh, or the marshal in Dodge City. He was killed disarming a cowboy.

• 38:25Steven Rinella?

  Is he related to Bat Masterson?

• 38:27Speaker 05

  Yes, he is. He was a brother.

• 38:28Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 38:28Speaker 05

  Fred White in Tombstone, and if you saw the movie, you know, you see where Curly Bill kills. You know, Fred White was trying to disarm and he grabbed the gun and pulled it towards him and the gun goes off. And he gets a mortal wound. So it was a very dangerous thing to be a law officer, disarming cowboys. And they didn't do it at a distance, you know, they did it up close. Um, Bat Masterson said Wyatt Earp was the bravest man he'd ever known. He showed no fear whatsoever. And he survived. He never got wounded. I mean, which is kind of bizarre too, so.

• 38:59Steven Rinella?

  What do you, what do you take of the, I, I see here that, um.

• 39:05Steven Rinella?

  Wyatt Earp's six shooters up for sale right now.

• 39:08Speaker 05

  Yes, okay, yeah.

• 39:09Steven Rinella?

  Is it, it's being auctioned?

• 39:11Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 39:11Steven Rinella?

  I haven't pulled up the link yet.

• 39:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, you know, it's, uh, it's one of those things where, um, you know, the auction says it comes with a binder full of providence and the providence is this. So, um, this.

• 39:23Steven Rinella?

  I'm looking at the site right now.

• 39:24Speaker 05

  Okay, so this man was a friend, uh, of Wyatt Earp and also a friend of Josephine, but who is Wyatt's wife.

• 39:31Steven Rinella?

  It's a forty-five Colt?

• 39:32Speaker 05

  Yes, and it was purchased in, uh, they have the Colt letter. So it was purchased in Los Angeles at a store in nineteen twenty-two. Wyatt Earp doesn't die till nineteen twenty-nine. So this man who was a friend of Wyatt, he dies. But then his son remains close to Josephine, Wyatt's wife. And the son got the revolver and then he told his children, Josephine told me that this was Wyatt's gun. So we don't have a letter from Josephine saying it's Wyatt's gun. We have this guy's word.

• 40:04Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:05Speaker 05

  The son of the man who was a friend and their children, the grandchildren are saying, you know, here's our, you know, and they sign notarized statements and all that kind of thing. But, but also, I mean, Josephine was known to acquire a gun or two and claim that it belonged to Wyatt. You know, Jesse James' mom did the same thing. She would buy guns and, oh yeah, this belonged to my son.

• 40:26Steven Rinella?

  Oh, really?

• 40:27Speaker 05

  And then she, yeah, and she would make money. She, uh, actually, this is funny. So, uh, they would, they would sell at Jesse James' grave. He was very next to the house there in Car- near Carney initially. And, uh, they would sell pebbles from the grave of Jesse.

• 40:44Steven Rinella?

  I'd buy one of those.

• 40:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, I would too. But then when they ran out of pebbles, they went to the crick and got more pebbles and put them on the grave. So I get, you know, it was still from his grave, but it might, wasn't there a long time, a short time. So. Every Wyatt Earp gun, there's a question on providence. I mean,

• 41:01Steven Rinella?

  Cut.

• 41:01Speaker 05

  It's, you're just not sure. And, and to me, uh, it may very well be true. You know, that story may be true, but like I said, I, you know, anymore, uh, anymore, you would almost have to have somebody dig up Wyatt and took the gun out of his grave to say, you know, yeah, that was for sure. Uh, and it's the same thing with all of these old west figures and outlaws. And there's such a big money involved. And one of the bane of a historian's existence is that, um, courthouses have been raided of documents with Wyatt Earp's sig- any Earp.

• 41:35Steven Rinella?

  Oh, so just the documents valuable?

• 41:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, they'll clip the signatures and, and, uh, and I know of cases, when I was researching this book, that, um, you know, Wyatt Earp's, uh, you know, certificate where he commissioned as a law, a lawman in Missouri, um, nobody knows where it is. Fortunately, there's a, there's a microfilm copy of it, but people have gone in and, and these county courthouses are not well protected or secured, uh, especially the remote ones. Um, Lincoln County, New Mexico, a lot of government doc, legal documents with Pat Garrett's name on it have been stolen. In fact, a few years ago, uh, there was a collection that was offered at auction and, uh, the state of New Mexico went in and, and then they were county records. I mean, there were legal government documents and they approached

• 42:20Speaker 05

  the auction company and said, these belong to us. And the family, in order to avoid, they just donated them back to the state. And here's the thing people should know, Steve, is that if it's a government document, it never ceases to be a government document. Even if you found it at the dump, it's still a government document. So something comes up for sale, that's, that's a legal, like a land patent or whatever it is, um, if it's a county, you know, like a warrant for arrest or whatever, um, don't buy it because, you know, it doesn't belong to the public. It's, it belongs to that county or the state or wherever it came from. But a lot of collectors, they just can't resist, oh, I gotta have this, it's got Pat Garrett's signature on it or whatever. Um, but, uh, but anyway, it, it makes a historian's life a nightmare because, you know, it's removing the historical

• 43:05Speaker 05

  record. And so we're, we're missing chunks of information because these documents ended up in private hands and are taken out of these courthouses. And then sometimes they're, you know, they're destroyed or lost or, or whatever. So we don't even know what we're missing. So it makes it really, really tough.

• 43:21Steven Rinella?

  I got a buddy, well, he's dead now, but he was a very well-known arrowhead hunter. He's kind of like an outlaw turned good, arrowhead hunter.

• 43:28Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 43:29Steven Rinella?

  Um. He was down in Colorado. He'd been a oil, he'd been a, a oil engineer, oil executive. I can't remember, he, he like came up through engineering, became an executive, but was a big arrowhead hunter. And then turned legit.

• 43:43Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 43:44Steven Rinella?

  Started volunteering for site surveys and whatnot. Anyhow. I was driving around with him one day. In New Mexico and he's telling me a story.

• 43:54Steven Rinella?

  He, he's at some kind of estate sale or yard sale or something or another, and he sees a Folsom point. Bolo tie.

• 44:02Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 44:05Steven Rinella?

  And like. Something about the patination on it, like he knew. It was a Folsom point. It wasn't a fake. Like he just looked, he said, I looked at it and I knew what I was looking at. That was a Folsom point.

• 44:17Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 44:18Steven Rinella?

  Glued. To the, just like you got on.

• 44:21Speaker 05

  Right.

• 44:22Steven Rinella?

  Okay. I wish I remember where, where it came from. He told me the whole story. He buys it for next to nothing. Peels that Folsom point off there. And on it is still the museum.

• 44:33Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 44:34Steven Rinella?

  Coding number.

• 44:35Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 44:36Steven Rinella?

  And he found the home for it.

• 44:38Speaker 05

  Oh, nice.

• 44:39Steven Rinella?

  Someone just walked away.

• 44:40Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 44:41Steven Rinella?

  And it was, he like rolls it over and it's like, I, I'm making this up, but like. A zero one, one, nine or something.

• 44:47Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 44:48Steven Rinella?

  Where they do like white out and then put a thing on there and then go, and then like nail polish over it or whatever.

• 44:53Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, no, that's, that's.

• 44:55Steven Rinella?

  So it's just like, like you're saying, like people just walk.

• 44:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:58Steven Rinella?

  Walk off with stuff.

• 44:59Speaker 05

  You know, my wife was a curator at the city of Colorado Springs museum several years ago. And she had a woman come in and it was with a Van Bigel, a Van Bigel vase. And Van Bigel was a very well-known early pottery maker in Colorado Springs.

• 45:13Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 45:13Speaker 05

  So anyway, she brings it in because she wanted my wife to give her some information on it. Well, my wife takes it and looks at the bottom and there's an accession number on it and it's from their museum. And my wife, my wife, my wife says, this is an accession number. The lady grabbed it out of her hands and ran out of the building. Yeah, she'd gotten it like a yard sale or something. But anyway, they tracked her down and lawyers were involved, but we got, they got the vase back. But no, it's like the lady, I mean, she did not want to hear this. I mean, because those pots, those faces, it was probably like a thirty or forty thousand dollar Van Bruggel vase.

• 45:51Steven Rinella?

  Wow.

• 45:52Speaker 05

  But no, she grabbed it and took off. It's like, I'm not, I'm out of here, you know?

• 45:57Steven Rinella?

  The other day, a couple of weekends ago, I was at my buddy's wedding down in New Mexico. Jeremy Romero, he's getting married. I, you know, his wife Shannon, I saw like, I never clicked her maid, family's names and all that in her background. Like, I mostly know him. Anyways, in the, in the, whatever the hell, the ceremony, they throw a nod to Grandpa Earp.

• 46:24Steven Rinella?

  You know, and I said, do you mean like the later? When you're supposed to say congratulations. Later in the evening, when you're supposed to say congratulations. I'm like, does that mean like the Earps? And she didn't know where everybody fit, but like the Earp family.

• 46:36Speaker 05

  Suddenly you became very interesting.

• 46:37Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Does anyone have any objections to this union? Actually, more of a question here. Yeah, perked up.

• 46:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:44Steven Rinella?

  During the ceremony. So, so your, your new book, Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, and a Reckoning in Tombstone. Oh, let me hit you with this one first.

• 46:56Steven Rinella?

  Do you feel that what Doc Holliday, that the script was wrong? They screwed the script up in Tombstone. Doc Holliday should have been saying, I'll be your huckle bearer.

• 47:14Speaker 05

  That's, that's a urban legend, huckle bearer.

• 47:18Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 47:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is, yeah.

• 47:19Steven Rinella?

  That's why I asked. I didn't say that's what it said.

• 47:21Speaker 05

  No, no, no, no.

• 47:22Steven Rinella?

  Ran it, check me on this.

• 47:23Speaker 05

  Asked and answered.

• 47:24Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. No.

• 47:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, but he did it like an accusation. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was not implying that you, that you were wrong.

• 47:31Steven Rinella?

  That's not true.

• 47:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, it's not. No.

• 47:33Steven Rinella?

  What the hell was he talking about?

• 47:34Speaker 05

  Well, you can find that. I mean, actually, that came up recently. And I looked through newspapers.com and like, one of the first references is in the eighteen fifties. And it was regarding like so and so, we're gonna, you know, he wants you to be, you know, or have a shooting match. And the guy goes, yeah, I'll be your huckleberry. Like, yeah, I'm.

• 47:54Steven Rinella?

  But not huckle bearer.

• 47:55Speaker 05

  No, not huckle.

• 47:56Steven Rinella?

  Because the urban legend is that they used to use like hucklewood.

• 48:00Speaker 05

  You're right.

• 48:00Steven Rinella?

  For the rails.

• 48:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:02Steven Rinella?

  On a. What do you call it? A grave thing? A box? A casket?

• 48:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:06Steven Rinella?

  That a coffin had like handrails and the handrails they would use like huckle wood.

• 48:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:11Steven Rinella?

  Like a huckleberry.

• 48:12Speaker 05

  Well, I don't know.

• 48:13Steven Rinella?

  That doesn't make any sense.

• 48:14Speaker 05

  Yeah. I don't even know what a huckle tree looks like, so.

• 48:17Steven Rinella?

  Well, it's a hu- if it's a huckleberry tree, it's a mighty thin rake.

• 48:20Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. But no, that's that.

• 48:23Steven Rinella?

  That's not true.

• 48:24Speaker 05

  That's not true. And, and I have heard that, that story about the huckle bear, but no, huckleberry, you know, and I, and I don't.

• 48:30Steven Rinella?

  What does it mean? I'll be your huckleberry?

• 48:31Speaker 05

  Well, that means I'm game, but I don't know the origins, why it's associated with the word huckleberry, but it just, the implication is, oh yeah, I'm game, I'm your man, or whatever, yeah.

• 48:41Steven Rinella?

  Like out like a trout, in like Flynn.

• 48:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly.

• 48:44Speaker 07

  Maybe you're looking, there's the idea that you're looking for huckleberries and hey, you found them, I'm your guy.

• 48:49Speaker 05

  And I don't even, I don't even, I don't even know if the people.

• 48:52Speaker 07

  Spitballing here, you know?

• 48:53Speaker 05

  I don't even know if the people that said it knew what it, knew where it came from. It's one of those phrases where, oh yeah, I'm your, and people just started using. Now, I don't think it was that common, but it was, it was a, a, a, at least in the 19th century, it was used. Now, I have never seen Doc Holliday, a contemporary source saying, I'm your huckleberry, but Kevin Jar, the script writer, was a brilliant script. I mean, he did research and, and he really looked at the historical record and somewhere he came across that phrase, which was brilliant, you know, I'm your huckleberry and, and Val Kilmer did it exceptionally well.

• 49:27Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 49:28Speaker 05

  But one of the neat things about the movie Tombstone is there are lots, I mean, Kevin Jar found lots of quotes. For instance, um, uh, you're a daisy if you have, or you're a daisy if you. That actually is in the testimony from after the O.K. Corral gunfight. Um, Kurt Russell says, or one of the act, one of the, says, it's a regular slaughterhouse. Well, that came from the diary of John Parsons, who was a miner. I mean, so there's, Jar did his research and there's lots of phrases and, and I have to agree with Kurt Russell, who, who said before that, you know, the thing that stands out about Tombstone is all the quotes. It's one of the most quotable westerns ever, you know?

• 50:06Steven Rinella?

  You know, you know what? Here's a good, if you're a screenwriter out there listening, or an aspiring screenwriter, there's a lesson to be learned here.

• 50:14Steven Rinella?

  People love to quote Full Metal Jacket, Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket. Everything memorable that anybody says in Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket is taken verbatim from Michael Hare's book Dispatches when he was sent to cover the Vietnam War for Esquire Magazine. And instead of going and doing what everybody else did at the time, which is go talk to Wes Moreland or like the brass, right, and talk about strategy and body counts and money spent and money wasted. He just went and spent years talking to grunts. And Dispatches is about, he cruised around with Errol Flynn's kid, Sean Flynn, who's a photographer.

• 50:58Steven Rinella?

  He just went around Vietnam, everywhere and talked to grunts. And so when you read Dispatches, which is his account of his time in Vietnam, Kubrick teamed up with him. All the quotes, "How can you shoot the women and children? You don't lead them as much." All that, but from the movie.

• 51:16Speaker 05

  Right.

• 51:17Steven Rinella?

  Which is from the book.

• 51:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:18Steven Rinella?

  It's all, it's all stuff dudes say to her or Hare, however, he says his name. It's all stuff people say to him and it's all in, it's all those memorable lines from, from Full Metal Jacket. So it's an interesting deal that this guy, that like those great quotes, like, I'll be your huckleberry, right, becomes just, no one knew what the hell that meant.

• 51:40Speaker 05

  No.

• 51:40Steven Rinella?

  But it's like, it's because it was a thing.

• 51:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, and it's on t-shirts now. You can buy a t-shirt that says, "I'm your huckleberry." But is Michael Hare the one that, that wrote that there's nothing as vicious as a teenage boy or something like that, or?

• 51:53Steven Rinella?

  He might have.

• 51:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think that comes from him or.

• 51:56Steven Rinella?

  The war kind of killed him in a way. He didn't do much, like, he reached like his zenith. He even explains in the end of Dispatches how hard it was to come home because he was from Berkeley and he came home and he talked about people would expect him to condemn everything. But all he could talk about was how beautiful he thought it all was. Like, it messed him up. He never did much anything. He was like the dude that wrote Dispatches. You know, like the book killed him. It was like Truman Capote, like writing in cold blood kind of killed him.

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• 54:47Steven Rinella?

  Talk about Wyatt Earp, like as a kid or whatever, you know, like where's a guy like that come from?

• 54:51Speaker 05

  So he's born in Illinois, 1848. Um, his father was a Mexican war veteran, very short time, just a few months in the Mexican war. But I mean, you know, it's, it's Midwest farming family. Um, his father, uh, you know, ran a kind of a grocery store, uh, in, in, uh, uh, Monmouth, Illinois. Then they moved to Pella, Iowa. I mean, really, there's nothing exceptional about his childhood and, and there's very few stories about him. I mean, you know, they talk about schoolyard fights or something, but what's odd about Wyatt Earp is that, um, the only stories that we really detailed stories about his childhood come from him. When he's dictating, I mean, you, you would think somebody in mom, oh yeah, they lived next to us, the guys that fought at the OK Corral.

• 55:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, they were my neighbors and this is what they did. There's nothing like that, either in Illinois or Iowa. And, uh, so I, I just find that kind of odd, but.

• 55:42Steven Rinella?

  And he wasn't tangled up in the Civil War at all?

• 55:44Speaker 05

  No, his brothers were. Um, he had three brothers that fought for the North, but, uh, he tried to join. Um, it's a famous story. Uh, he was like 14 years old and he runs away from home.

• 55:55Steven Rinella?

  At 14?

• 55:56Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, his brothers were in and it's like, you know, so, so, so different from wars today. Everybody wanted to join, everybody wanted to go to war. I mean, you wanted to be a hero. Uh, you wanted to join, you know, and fight, you know, fight the ribs and the other side, the same thing. So, uh.

• 56:13Steven Rinella?

  I gotta hold you up on that.

• 56:14Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 56:15Steven Rinella?

  I'm just curious, not, not just because I cough.

• 56:17Speaker 05

  Oh, sure.

• 56:17Steven Rinella?

  Is that, that, that's like, there, there was an enthusiasm to fight that war.

• 56:24Speaker 05

  Oh yeah. I mean, well.

• 56:25Steven Rinella?

  Cause that was, that war, that was no joke.

• 56:27Speaker 05

  No, it was not.

• 56:28Steven Rinella?

  You're getting, you get involved in that war, you're gonna very good chance something's gonna happen to you.

• 56:32Speaker 05

  Part of it is expectation. I mean, you're, you're a young man, you're expected, you know, you're, you're gonna go to war, you're gonna fight for your country. Um, but also part of it is, is, is looked at, I mean, it's the glory. Uh, you know, Custer gets knocked for being a glory hunter, but you're not gonna advance in the army unless you get glory, unless you have victories, you, you, you win at war. So it was expected and then if you. Wanted to seek political office later. I mean, look at how many generals advanced into political office after the war. I mean, it would help your career. I mean, Grant becomes president, right? I mean, and so many of them become congressmen and senators. And so it was a whole different mindset in the 19th century.

• 57:14Speaker 05

  And then everything you read as a kid, well, for instance, Theodore Roosevelt, born in 1859. All through the Civil War, I mean, he's seeing Harper's Weekly and Frank Leslie's. And they've got these giant engravings of these glorious battles. And they're not in color, you know, they're black and white. You don't see the blood, you don't see the drip, you don't see the men beheaded by a cannonball. I mean, it looks so glorious and thrilling. And, and so there's all this kind of manliness involved. Yeah, let's go off and we're gonna fight and we're gonna become heroes. And of course, they realize later that it's awful, it's horrible, it's ugly. Um, so no, they're, they're, you know, Wyatt wanted to join and his brothers, you know. And of course, the option for, you know, Wyatt could either join the army or he can stay home and plant in that stupid cornfield that he hated.

• 57:58Speaker 05

  You know, he didn't want to be a farmer, but that's what his father had him doing. His father told him, hey, you know, you're, this food goes to your brothers in the war. And Wyatt eventually is like, you know, well, I'm gonna starve with them because I'm gonna go fight the revs and he runs away from home. His father tracks him down and he's, you know, Wyatt's all excited. He got grounded. He got, well, yeah, essentially, but he, he, he sees his father in this hotel and he thinks his father doesn't see him and he rushes back home. Well, his father had spotted him and he almost got a whipping, but his mother saved him. And his father made him promises, says, you will not join the military without the permission of your mother and you will tend to the cornfield. And so that was it. And, and then his, the, the family ends up leaving during the war and going to California.

• 58:43Speaker 05

  And I think the reason was Nicholas Earp, he already had three men that had gone to fight. He opposed the war. He was what they call a copperhead. He was a Democrat, but a copperhead. They were opposed to the war because they thought the war was really becoming about slavery and abolition. And What did he want it to be about? Well, he thought it was about the Constitution initially. It was supposed to be about the Constitution and keeping the Union together. Why the term copper? Well, I don't know where that comes from, actually, Copperhead.

• 59:09Steven Rinella?

  So you're like a Democrat and you don't want to be involved in a war about slavery, but he wasn't, so not an abolitionist?

• 59:15Speaker 05

  No, oh no, that's, and that was, they were really opposed to the abolitionist stance because they felt, they felt it became a war about abolitionism.

• 59:22Steven Rinella?

  Which they didn't care about.

• 59:23Speaker 05

  No, no, and, and you know, Nicholas Earp, I mean, you know, he had the racist views of the period, he didn't think it was worth fighting to free these people that didn't deserve it. So, I think one of the reasons to go to California, he opposed the war, but he's also taking his sons out of harms way. He's getting, Wyatt, you know, Wyatt wants to join, we're gonna go to California. He had younger brothers, Morgan and Warren, and who knows, at this time, it's 1864, they don't know how long this war's gonna go. It might go for another two or three years, and I don't want my sons, you know, in this war that I disagree with. So they go to California. Um, so that was, that was, you know, Wyatt's closest encounter with the Civil War was his attempt to join up, but, uh, he got caught.

• 1:00:04Steven Rinella?

  And if his brothers get killed there?

• 1:00:06Speaker 05

  No, um, one brother, Jim, uh, was so badly wounded in his arm that it was, his arm was unusable. So, uh, he kept his arm, but he just, you know, couldn't use it. Um, and, uh, Virgil, um, I don't think he was wounded in the war, and then he had a, a half-brother, Newton, and he survived the war also.

• 1:00:26Steven Rinella?

  Where, where did he go from California? Like, how did he get tangled up with hunting buffalo down in Texas? And his, kind of his whole gang, like, the dudes he became to be associated with did?

• 1:00:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, he met Bat Masterson on the Buffalo Plains, of course, you know, it's a little murky is the chronology because he claimed, now, you know, Wyatt's thing was, he had a lot in his past that he preferred not get out to the public. I mean, he wanted to tell a story, but, um-

• 1:00:51Steven Rinella?

  Such as what?

• 1:00:52Speaker 05

  Well, um, so he's, he's a constable in Missouri for just about, oh, less than a year. And, uh, he loses his wife there, he, he absconds with tax monies that he had collected that were supposed to go to the county. And, uh, gets his family in trouble because his father and uncle had signed his surrogates on this bond, thousand-dollar bond. He ends up getting arrested for stealing a horse in Oklahoma.

• 1:01:15Steven Rinella?

  He's a pimp for a while too.

• 1:01:16Speaker 05

  Well, that's what I'm getting to. So, so from that horse theft thing, he escapes from jail. He, he says at that point, and he never mentioned, he never admits to stealing a horse or any of the other things. But um, he says, then I went to the Buffalo Range and I was able to make five thousand dollars in hides or whatever. Well, there's an interval in there where he went to Peoria, Illinois. And he's living in the home of a prostitute. Uh, there's a prostitute that claims to be his wife. Uh, and he's actually running a brothel according to the arrest records. He's, he's arrested as a pimp. Uh, and one of his, his last brothel operation, which I think is kind of hilarious. It was a floating brothel on the river. So, yeah.

• 1:01:59Steven Rinella?

  Was it to get out of like the, like, like how you would have to gamble on the river to get out of the state regulations?

• 1:02:04Speaker 05

  I don't, no, because they still arrested him. But uh, I, in the book, I say it was, it was the true definition of a pleasure boat. But uh, anyway, yeah. So, so he got arrested a few, in fact, one time he got.

• 1:02:16Steven Rinella?

  So he had a boat?

• 1:02:17Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:02:17Steven Rinella?

  Like what kind, like a keel boat?

• 1:02:19Speaker 05

  It was like, I think it was like a, some kind of a flat boat or it wasn't an extravagant, it wasn't like.

• 1:02:24Steven Rinella?

  Not like one of the big paddle wheel.

• 1:02:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, it wasn't, no, it wasn't one of these luxury boats. No, it wasn't like that at all. I think it was a pretty basic boat. Um, but he was arrested more than once and one time when he was arrested, uh, it was gonna charge him like forty-four dollars. And he didn't have the money, so he chose to be in jail, him and his brother Morgan. So they sat out their, their, you know, time in jail. And then they went back to doing the same thing. That's when they got the boat or whatever. So.

• 1:02:49Steven Rinella?

  But I, I want to narrow in on this boat for me.

• 1:02:51Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:02:51Steven Rinella?

  I'm just having a hard time understanding. Why are they running? A, uh, like, why are they running a cat house on a boat?

• 1:02:59Speaker 05

  Well, I think it's the mobility.

• 1:03:01Steven Rinella?

  Moving target.

• 1:03:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:03Steven Rinella?

  The sheer novelty.

• 1:03:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's right. Yeah. No, I think it's like you could, the idea is, and I'm kind of speculating here. I mean, you could, again, you could move from place to place and, or maybe move to a different town, you know, down the river or whatever. And uh, conduct your business. So, but, but it wasn't.

• 1:03:20Steven Rinella?

  It's funny that we, we laughed so hard about this years ago is uh, years ago, there's this whole dispute in this town where like this, this town is trying to ban ice fishing. Okay, remember this?

• 1:03:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:32Steven Rinella?

  This town's trying to ban ice fishing. There's like this city councilman. Who is giving like the speech at the, at the town meeting? And he's talking about, well, if you allow ice fish, then people are gonna have ice shanties.

• 1:03:46Steven Rinella?

  And if you bring in ice shanties, that's prostitution.

• 1:03:51Speaker 05

  And that killed it, right?

• 1:03:53Steven Rinella?

  And the guy became like the laughing stock, you know, but it was like, but when you're talking about the boat, I'm just trying to, I don't know, just somehow I thought like, why, like, I don't get like the connection.

• 1:04:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:03Steven Rinella?

  But yeah, you just can move around.

• 1:04:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And who knows? I mean, maybe was it really inexpensive, you know, rather than have a, you know, go to some building in town? But like you say, yeah, you're mobile and maybe you're here one night and the next night you tell your, tell your guys, yeah, we're gonna be out here five miles or whatever.

• 1:04:20Steven Rinella?

  Dude, was his wife like, would, would you imagine, was his wife a, a madam? Or was she an actual worker?

• 1:04:27Speaker 05

  Well, so he had four wives and, or significant, he only, there's only one legal record, marriage record for his first wife. But the wife he had in Peoria, um, she apparently was not a madam, but was actually a worker.

• 1:04:40Steven Rinella?

  Working girl.

• 1:04:41Speaker 05

  Yeah. Now later, yes, later, um, apparently, uh, this, uh, this wife, when he was in Wichita, because she came with him and apparently she was a madam or running a bravel. Um, and you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really sad because these are one-sided affairs. I mean, uh, you know, let's say Doc Holliday's, you know, big-nosed Kate. I mean, a lot of times these, these prostitutes, they had gamblers as their partners. And it's like, well, you know, you lose a lot of money at the table. Well, you're having your, your wife, you know, make, you're taking her money, basically.

• 1:05:21Speaker 05

  Or you're just freeloaded off of them and just adding a little, getting a little protection for them. You're not really doing much work of the protection. So it's, it's a sad, it's uneven, I should say, is those relationships.

• 1:05:32Steven Rinella?

  A little bit predatory.

• 1:05:33Speaker 05

  Exactly. Yeah. So, um, but anyway, I, the way I look at, um, so, so White had these unseemly things about his past, but he was in his early twenties. I mean, um, and Uh, you know, I, I'm a little sympathetic because he, he grew out of that. He, he, he became different. He aspired to something better. Uh, and when he ends up in Wichita as a policeman, even though his wife is still a prostitute, uh, he's, they rave about him as a policeman there. And when he's in Dodge City, the same thing. I mean, he's like the best policeman uh, they've ever had. And when he gets to Tombstone, you know, he wants to run for county sheriff. I mean, he's trying to better himself. And one of the things about the American West is that you can leave your past behind. I mean, there's nobody on the internet looking

• 1:06:18Speaker 05

  you up, you, you know, like they do today. I mean, you know, finding your high school yearbook photo, or you dressed up in some weird character. I mean, it's that you can escape your past.

• 1:06:28Speaker 03

  Why was he moving from place to place to be like, was he following money? Was he getting recruited? Was he getting in trouble and having to leave? Like, why did he bounce

• 1:06:37Speaker 05

  It's a combination of all those things. So he had a good job. He was well respected in Wichita, but he got in a fight there. Um, there was a man that was running against his boss who, for sheriff. And this man had said some unsavory things about Wyatt's brothers. And so he hauled off and hit him. Well, you know, he got arrested and fined, and he was dismissed from the police force. Almost immediately thereafter, the mayor of Dodge City, uh, learns that Wyatt Earp's available. And so he sends him a letter offering him more pay, you know? And the, the cattle herd trade had shifted west. Uh, they, have you heard of the deadline? Have you heard of the phrase called the deadline?

• 1:07:15Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 1:07:16Speaker 05

  So, um,

• 1:07:16Steven Rinella?

  I've dealt with a few deadlines, but not like what you're talking about.

• 1:07:20Speaker 05

  Um, so there was a, a tick-borne disease called Spanish fever.

• 1:07:24Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:07:24Speaker 05

  And the Kansas legislature, they had a line-

• 1:07:26Steven Rinella?

  Not, not a livestock disease, but a human disease.

• 1:07:28Speaker 05

  No, a livestock disease.

• 1:07:29Steven Rinella?

  A livestock, yeah.

• 1:07:30Speaker 05

  And they did not want these Texas cattle infecting the, the herds in the more settled places of Kansas.

• 1:07:36Speaker 03

  Is that the one that they're worried about coming back now?

• 1:07:38Speaker 05

  I, I don't know. I haven't heard about that. So anyway.

• 1:07:42Steven Rinella?

  Well, there's, yeah, Texas fever.

• 1:07:44Speaker 05

  Well, they kept moving.

• 1:07:45Steven Rinella?

  They, they use that, they spray those nil guy with that automated spray gun to try to like, get the tick off them.

• 1:07:51Speaker 05

  Oh, okay. Well, it was a tick borne disease. So they kept moving the line west and so they had moved the line west of Wichita and so Dodge City became the headquarters. And it was just perfect timing, you know, he needed a job. But as far as Tombstone, for instance, uh, he had resigned his post in Dodge City. He'd heard about the strikes in Tombstone and he was gonna go there to make money. In fact, he, he said that he bought a Concord coach, a stage coach, and he thought they would, might need a stage line. And so his idea was, I'm gonna take this coach. When he got there, there were already two stage lines operating, but he went to Tombstone to make money. And actually, to put down roots, I mean, he builds a house for his wife at the time. I mean, he, he

• 1:08:33Speaker 05

  buys mining claims. He's first a deputy sheriff there in the county, um, and then, uh, you know, he's wanting to run for this, that when they, when they create Cochise County, uh, he wants to run for the county sheriff. He really is looking to advance, uh, to better himself. I mean, to really settle down. Um, you know, he's like thirty-three or no, he's like thirty or, well, I can't remember, thirty-three, I think, at that time. Um, and, uh, there's opportunity here. A- and he got there right at the birth. I mean, Tombstone was just starting to boom. And so he did have, you know, he did have a real opportunity to, to make a difference and to be someone. Uh, the problem was the cowboys and all the outlawry and the rustling that was going on. And, you know, when a stage was robbed, well, he was

• 1:09:16Speaker 05

  on the posse. Uh, you know, when somebody was killed or, or, or, you know, they needed somebody, you know, Wyatt Earp was the one that was, you know, helping out or, you know, representing the law or if his brother needed help, he was helping his brother because his brother was, uh, a deputy US marshal and became chief of police in Tombstone. But he was really looking to change and to make himself better. And even the Earp women, you know, several of them had been prostitutes as well, but one of the things about in the old west, um, if someone said, you know, Wyatt could say, this is my wife, you didn't question him. They just called her Mrs. Earp. I mean, there was no, this stuff didn't follow you. So, uh, they really had hopes for a new beginning, uh, in Tombstone.

• 1:09:56Speaker 03

  Were his brothers like, was it always like a family business or did they not join him until? Tombstone, I guess.

• 1:10:04Speaker 05

  It wasn't really a family business, but what it was, was these brothers, I mean, they were a tight knit brood and they always tended to come back together and, you know, for instance, Jim Earp was in Tombstone, but he wasn't involved with Wyatt. He was, uh, you know, a barkeep there at one of the saloons. Um, Virgil Earp, uh, he didn't invest in the gambling concession that Wyatt had at the Oriental. You know, he was the deputy US marshal, eventually chief of police. So they liked being together, but they weren't really in business together. Now, I think that they might've shared some mining claims that they speculated in. Um, but over and over again, they, they tend to stay together as a family. And, you know, Morgan comes down from Montana, uh, when he learns that Wyatt and the other brothers

• 1:10:49Speaker 05

  are in Tombstone and joins them there. And he gets it. He takes Wyatt's job as a sitting shotgun on a stagecoach after Wyatt becomes the deputy sheriff or whatever. So they just, you know, they, they navigate together because they're family.

• 1:11:03Steven Rinella?

  You know, the thing that, uh, in, in reading about this era and, and different figures that, that I've written about and that Randall's researched about what you're talking about, you get these guys that are, um, that these incredible drifters. Like, when we talk about the mountain man era, um, nowadays, someone might think of like a mountain man, you know, like a hermit, lives by himself up in a cabin. Oh, he's a true mountain man, you know, lives up in his cabin, never talks to anybody.

• 1:11:35Speaker 05

  I think that's a History Channel show, isn't it?

• 1:11:36Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. So, but like the mountain men, like the actual mountain men would have been the most widely, like the most, some of the most widely traveled people in the country. I mean, crisscrossing the country. Right? And you think this is a time when you could be a farmer and spend your whole life in a 20 mile radius, right? In, in certain areas. Like, it's not easy to get around. These guys get around unbelievably well. Would like, if you look at all the, like, how much do Earps move?

• 1:12:11Steven Rinella?

  Would that have seemed at that time, would that have seemed weird? That they'd lived in, you know, I mean, you've lived in eight states, you've been to the west coast and back?

• 1:12:23Speaker 05

  No, I don't think so, because in all these boom towns, people are coming from someplace else.

• 1:12:27Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:28Speaker 05

  I mean, they're all, I mean, especially if it's, uh, now, a mining boom town's different than a cattle boom town. Um, so, you know, when, when gold or silver, Tombstone's a silver place. Um, you know, people are coming all over to think they're gonna make their riches. And, you know, what's, what's odd is that, uh, there was one newspaper account where a guy's writing a letter from Tombstone. And he says, uh, most of the, and like at one point, there was like twenty men arriving a day, early on. Uh, and he says, most of the people that arrive here, uh, are riving broke. And he said, it's not really a good idea to come here because there's not that many jobs. Uh, as far as, you know, you could, if you were a miner, you could get like, working miner, you get like four dollars a day or something like that.

• 1:13:12Speaker 05

  But I mean, it wasn't that there were just all kinds of jobs, ready to take these people. So you've got a lot of people that are wandering around, they don't have a job, they don't have the money. And then plus, everything is super expensive there, it's like double, uh, what you can find elsewhere. I mean, like a, a sack of flour in Tombstone was six dollars, you could get it in Kansas for less than three dollars. You know, or, or a bushel or whatever. So, um, yeah, so it's, uh, so the people are coming from all over. Um, you know, for this, and, and all the talk is about mining. Uh, one of the funny stories I came across was, uh, um, you know, they're always, people always talk about these different claims. And, uh, anyway, in eighteen eighty was, uh, an election year. And it was Garfield, and I can't remember who he was running against.

• 1:13:57Speaker 05

  But, um, somebody mentioned Garfield, and they said, oh, where's that claim at, how much does it pay? You know, they thought it was a mining claim, or whatever. And then another thing, that, that, it's just really horrible, actually, but the, the diarist, George Parson, we have his diary, which is so great. But, um, he mentions that there was a lightning strike at the lumberyard in Tombstone, and it killed a man. And he says, you know, some of the people are talking about, maybe it struck there because there was a large load of metal in that spot.

• 1:14:26Steven Rinella?

  Oh, you're kidding me.

• 1:14:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, they weren't talking about the guy that was killed at all. It's like, I wonder if there's-

• 1:14:31Steven Rinella?

  Someone needs to dig a hole down there.

• 1:14:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, I wonder if there's some silver there, it's like, oh yeah, who was that guy that was, you know, they didn't even care about him, so, yeah.

• 1:14:38Steven Rinella?

  Uh, walk us through, walk us through Doc Holliday. Like, people kinda carry it in their head that these guys are, that these guys are buddies. Became buddies, but totally different upbringings.

• 1:14:49Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, um, uh, Doc had a little more advanced education than, than Wyatt did, and you can tell that, you know, if you look at the few letters that we have of Wyatt, um, he wasn't the best, uh, speller or calligrapher, but I mean, he had an education. Uh, we have no letters, actually, uh, from Doc, and we know that he was a big letter writer. Um, he had a cousin that he was, uh, some people think he had an affair with, um, we're not really sure, but he wrote her constantly. And I guess she burned all her letters after Doc.

• 1:15:18Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they definitely had.

• 1:15:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, there you go, yeah.

• 1:15:21Steven Rinella?

  Why would she have burned the letters?

• 1:15:22Speaker 05

  She didn't want anybody to see. I mean, you know, she burned all of them, so, which is, I mean, we would have had so much information, but according to, there's a family story that they saw these letters, and they said Doc was talking about his experiences in the West, and talking about what he was doing and what he was seeing, and we would have had so much more information. But to get back to your question, um,

• 1:15:43Steven Rinella?

  He was a doc?

• 1:15:44Speaker 05

  He was a doc, he was a dentist. Um, he actually went to a dent, the, the most, uh, prestigious dental school in the country at that time was in, uh, Philadelphia, the Philadelphia Dental School. Um, and he got a degree. Uh, he went there in 1870, he got his dental degree. Uh, one of the few photographs we have of him was taken in Philadelphia, uh, and we think it was like a graduation photo or whatever, and it has his signature on the back, and it says, you know, J H Holliday, D D D, or whatever. Um, but anyway, so, uh, he also comes down with tuberculosis. His mother had tuberculosis, and there's speculation that, well, you know, he probably got it from her. In the 19th century, people didn't know it was contagious.

• 1:16:29Speaker 05

  So, you know, today if somebody, oh, I got TB and you're coughing all over the place. It's like.

• 1:16:32Steven Rinella?

  That's what I got right now.

• 1:16:33Speaker 05

  Oh, do you? So, I hope you're taking some pitocillin. Yeah. Um, but anyway, yeah, you would, I mean, people didn't know that.

• 1:16:40Steven Rinella?

  They called it consumption.

• 1:16:41Speaker 05

  Yes, exactly. Yeah. Or they called him a lunger. What is it in the movie Tombstone?

• 1:16:45Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 1:16:45Speaker 05

  Uh, yeah. Johnny Ringo calls him a lunger or whatever. Um, so anyway, uh, there's a couple of theories as to why he goes out west. And one of them is this is that they encourage him to go west because of his health. You know, let's go out to a different climate. It's odd because he goes to Texas, which is Dallas, which is not that much different from where he is as far as humidity and all that stuff.

• 1:17:07Steven Rinella?

  But that comes up though.

• 1:17:09Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:17:09Steven Rinella?

  That comes up like the historian Francis Parkman.

• 1:17:12Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 1:17:12Steven Rinella?

  Who wrote sort of like at the time, a definitive history of the French and Indian War. He gets advised by his doctor.

• 1:17:19Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 1:17:20Steven Rinella?

  You need to go out west for your health. So he goes out and starts hanging out, um, in the Dakotas. Probably goes to crazy, probably is in the same camp in the Gualle Sue camp, probably in the same camp with Crazy Horse and Crazy Horse is like 13 years old. And he's out there on his like doctor's recommendation.

• 1:17:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was called the Prairie Cure. They, they believed, you know, now.

• 1:17:43Steven Rinella?

  Was that right?

• 1:17:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was called the Prairie Cure.

• 1:17:45Steven Rinella?

  You see reference to it so much.

• 1:17:47Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17:47Steven Rinella?

  You've got to get away from the miasmas.

• 1:17:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:17:50Steven Rinella?

  The bad air, the east.

• 1:17:51Speaker 05

  And there's some amazing, uh, survival stories of Josiah Gregg, who wrote a book called Commerce of the Prairies. He was advised to go out west. This is in the 1830s and along the Santa Fe Trail. He started his journey as an invalid. He could not walk. Uh, within a few weeks, he's up and walking, he's eating buffalo meat and he's like fully, he, he fully recovered.

• 1:18:14Steven Rinella?

  What was his affliction?

• 1:18:15Speaker 05

  We don't know. I mean, we don't know, but he was, he was so bad off that he couldn't even walk.

• 1:18:19Steven Rinella?

  I wonder if he just was had celiac's.

• 1:18:23Steven Rinella?

  Well. Do you know what I'm saying? No. Well, think it through. He's got, he's a celiac. Okay. And also now he's out there eating nothing but meat. Thought you didn't believe in celiac. Totally not, no. I believe in that. You don't believe in trendy. I don't believe in gluten intolerance. Okay. But what, what a lot of. Believe in it as a partisan disease. Right. It's a political disease. Well, what, what his. I'm totally joking. Okay. Well, what some historians, what some historians think. I told you, it was refuted. Oh, okay. I used to feel. Just, I, I said something incendiary. I gotta clean it up. I used to feel that it was a, that, that, just with all due respect to everyone out there.

• 1:19:05Speaker 06

  Plenty of celiac.

• 1:19:06Steven Rinella?

  Okay. No, I'm a believer. I, I came up with this theory based on just nothing. That gluten intolerance was a left wing affliction.

• 1:19:18Steven Rinella?

  Okay. Okay. I was like, why, how could there be? So I questioned this legitimacy, like, how could there be a health problem that seems to mostly strike people of, of politically left persuasion? But then my buddy Spencer, our colleague, came to me with a quiz.

• 1:19:36Steven Rinella?

  And it's like, it's like breaks down different belief systems into like right leaning, left leaning. Ghosts. He's like ghosts. And I'm like, definitely left wing. He's like, no, no. If you're right wing, you're more inclined to believe. So anyways, once he walked me through, they didn't do the gluten intolerance. But like, the one thing you can say is right wing people like a rare steak more than left wing people. But you can't say that they get more gluten intolerance. I don't even know where you sit politically. Well. You don't need to tell me. But I just wanted to clear that up. Okay. Cause I don't want to rehash, I don't want to open old wounds. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad you did a statistical study that. Yeah. Well, that's the problem is I did. Oh. But my friend did. Okay. And it caused you to rethink.

• 1:20:22Steven Rinella?

  And he challenged a lot of my assumptions and then my theory fell apart. As many theories do. That's all.

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• 1:22:44Steven Rinella?

  The prairie cure.

• 1:22:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, so.

• 1:22:46Steven Rinella?

  We don't know what Josiah Greg.

• 1:22:48Speaker 05

  No, we don't.

• 1:22:48Steven Rinella?

  What his affliction was.

• 1:22:49Speaker 05

  But.

• 1:22:49Steven Rinella?

  But I believe it was celiac's.

• 1:22:51Speaker 05

  Okay, alright, yeah, well, it could very well be. I mean, I have, I can't say either way, but a lot of historians think that um, that people that were ill that went west may not really have had tuberculosis to begin with. It might have been, you know, something else. And also tuberculosis can go into remission. As well, so, um, so, but, but, but you're right, though. I mean, doctors were constantly referring, you know, go west or whatever and.

• 1:23:18Steven Rinella?

  So in, in, in like medical hindsight, is it that that wasn't?

• 1:23:25Steven Rinella?

  Like, like, that wasn't a way to cure, that, that wasn't actually helpful if you had TB?

• 1:23:30Speaker 05

  I, well, it might have been helpful just because you're getting away from this, I mean, the west is arid. So you have dry air, you're getting away from this humid, you're getting away from all the coal smoke and that certainly isn't going to make your TB any better. Um, so I think it was helpful and, and you had all kinds of sanitariums popping up in the late 19th century, early 20th century. Colorado Springs was a huge place for sanitariums and they had little huts and you're supposed to get out in the sun, which is helpful, you know, getting sunlight, sunlight.

• 1:23:59Steven Rinella?

  What's a sanitarium?

• 1:24:00Speaker 05

  Oh, it's, it's a huge complex for treating patients with tuberculosis with like dozens and dozens, hundreds of individual huts. And, yeah, and you would go.

• 1:24:09Steven Rinella?

  I would have thought you meant like a insane asylum. A sanitarium?

• 1:24:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, sanitarium, yeah.

• 1:24:15Steven Rinella?

  Did you know this, Randall?

• 1:24:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:24:16Steven Rinella?

  They've covered that when the doctorate.

• 1:24:18Speaker 03

  I mean, that's where he ended up in Glenwood Springs.

• 1:24:20Speaker 07

  I believe, uh, I believe Chico Hot Springs used to be a sanitarium.

• 1:24:25Steven Rinella?

  God, man.

• 1:24:26Speaker 03

  Always, always springs, they're always hot springs.

• 1:24:28Steven Rinella?

  I'm glad I know this, because I would have raised my hand like in trivia, I would have been like, insane asylum.

• 1:24:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:24:33Steven Rinella?

  But you get insane asylum, is what that is.

• 1:24:35Speaker 03

  Was, um, was Doc Holliday already like before he?

• 1:24:41Speaker 03

  Left the east to go west. Was he already like a never do well gambler and drinker and all that?

• 1:24:47Speaker 05

  Well, there's some, some authors have written that he had kind of learned to play cards while he was in Georgia. Uh, before going west. But here's the other story that's more unseemly. Uh, about Doc Holliday that, that counters the tuberculosis story. Um. There was this fishing hole, uh, along the river where.

• 1:25:07Steven Rinella?

  This is a euphemism?

• 1:25:09Speaker 05

  No, no, it's a real, no, I'm sorry. It's a swimming hole. Sorry, a swimming hole. Um. And, uh, anyway, it was enjoyed by both black swimmers and white swimmers.

• 1:25:19Steven Rinella?

  Oh, I've heard this.

• 1:25:20Speaker 05

  Yes. And so the white swimmers, including Doc Holliday, did not want the black swimmers in their swimming hole. And they threatened him and says, you're gonna have to go someplace else. Well, the black young man said, we're not going someplace else. You can go someplace else. Well, a few days later, Doc Holliday shows up with a double barrel shotgun. And he yells at them all to get out. And then as they're clamoring out of the fishing, uh, the swimming hole. He unloads both barrels and apparently kills two of these young men. Yeah. Um.

• 1:25:46Steven Rinella?

  Doc Holliday?

• 1:25:47Speaker 05

  Yes. And the story is.

• 1:25:49Steven Rinella?

  Val Kilmer.

• 1:25:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Didis Quaid. Um, so, uh, the story is, is that the family, I mean. Apparently it wasn't a horrible, you know, thing to kill black men in Georgia right after the civil war. But they suggested, oh, maybe you need to leave for a while and until things settle down or whatever. The family does have stories of this incident, but they say Doc Holliday fired over the heads of the swimmers. Um, I can tell you that there are no legal documents known or newspaper reports. That mention this episode at all.

• 1:26:26Steven Rinella?

  Does it seem like a thing that would have been reported on?

• 1:26:29Speaker 05

  It seems like if two men were killed, whether black or white, I think it would have been reported, but. It's a very strong story in the lore. And when Doc Holliday died in Glenwood Springs. His obituary in a, in a Montana paper mentions that episode, says he had killed a couple of black men or one black man in Georgia. So that story, you know, how I said you could escape your past, that story stuck around. People knew that story.

• 1:26:55Steven Rinella?

  Got it.

• 1:26:56Speaker 05

  Um, I would just love to, I mean, it would make me feel better if I found an actual document. From the time or a newspaper report saying that these men had been killed or whatever, but it's also believable. I mean, I can't say it didn't happen. It's, it's believable.

• 1:27:10Steven Rinella?

  So when he left, when he leaves Georgia, and whether it's it's because he's got consumption, whether because he's worried about getting arrested.

• 1:27:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:27:20Steven Rinella?

  He he leaves dentistry.

• 1:27:22Speaker 05

  No, no, he sets up a sh- uh, he has a partner in Dallas, Texas. And they have a dental, he has a partner, his name is Cigar, yes, Seeger. Um, and this is, this is the cool thing, I mean, there's a, there's a local fair, the Texas Industrial Association. They get a prize for like the best false teeth, oh, you know, so Doc Holliday is an award-winning dentist. He not only has a dental degree, but now he's an award-winning dentist and he's in his early twenties, you know? Um, but Dallas is also where he takes a different path, um, he diverges. Um, he later in in talking to a newspaper reporter, he said, uh, yeah, I was part of the Methodist church.

• 1:28:04Speaker 05

  He was even part of this, um, uh, you know, uh, group of, uh, uh, what you wouldn't call it, uh, A A A, but it was, you know, a temperance, uh, organization and, uh, but then he says, uh, uh, that I swayed. You know, and, uh, uh, something from rectitude or whatever. And so, uh, yeah, he, he started gambling, Bat Masterson says, you know, there was gambling was rampant in Dallas. And he says, that was the one way to sure make money in Dallas, because of all the places where you could gamble. We know that Doc was arrested there for gambling in Dallas. And apparently, you know, Doc's life as a gambler, well, in fact, Bat Masterson says, the only way to get an appointment was to sit across from at a poker table, you know? So, uh, I guess his partner got fed up and they separated.

• 1:28:49Speaker 05

  Um, and only a few more times do we know that Doc Holliday does practice dentistry, or at least a- appear to, um, you know, he apparently set out in Denton, Texas. He set out, um, a, a, a sign, you know, dentistry. And in Dodge City, when he arrives there, he puts an ad in the paper. And so we have those newspapers.

• 1:29:08Steven Rinella?

  Oh, he does.

• 1:29:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, it says, you know, John H. Holliday dentist. But after that, we have no record that he actually practiced it as, as a dentist. For instance, um, uh, he was in Prescott, Arizona for a while, he was gambling. He was definitely not practicing dentistry in Tombstone, he was a full-time gambler. But the funny thing is, in the eighteen eighty census for Arizona, his occupation is limited to this dentist. But he wasn't doing, I mean, you know, it's kind of like, this is the other weird thing. The Earp brothers in the same census, they're listed as farmers. They weren't farming. Wyatt hated farming, but you know, I guess you tell the census taker, what's your occupation? Oh, I'm farmer. Yeah, I don't know. But anyway, I, I, I just thought that, that census taker had to chuckle when Doc said, yeah,

• 1:29:53Speaker 05

  put me down as dentist, because he was not doing dentistry in Prescott, Arizona.

• 1:29:57Steven Rinella?

  Got it. If he, if he, if a guy like Doc Holliday filled out of like his tax forms at the end of a year of gambling. Um, like he's, he's showing like a gain, he like.

• 1:30:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:30:13Steven Rinella?

  Do you know what I mean? Like when he, when you read all these guys, like he was a gambler, professional gambler.

• 1:30:19Steven Rinella?

  What's that look like economically? There's no house, right?

• 1:30:22Speaker 05

  Oh, no.

• 1:30:22Steven Rinella?

  You're just, you're playing at a table just like anybody.

• 1:30:25Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well.

• 1:30:26Steven Rinella?

  Is it, there's guys that are legitimately supporting themselves? Or is it that you're doing other nefarious stuff? But you're mostly spending your time playing cards, but your income is from prostitution or whatever the hell you got going on?

• 1:30:42Speaker 05

  Well, sometimes you're actually just being paid as a dealer in, in a, in a gambling establishment. You're not necessarily taking part of the women's or winnings or, you know, you, uh, you get a concession. You can run this Pharaoh table and you'll give so much to the guy that owns the place and you keep so much.

• 1:31:00Steven Rinella?

  God, God.

• 1:31:01Speaker 05

  But the thing is.

• 1:31:01Steven Rinella?

  So it's not like that you need to win more than you lose. There's other ways to turn a profit. There's other ways to turn a living as a gambler.

• 1:31:08Speaker 05

  Yes. But I mean, Doc, uh, hi- his income had to be so erratic. Um, you know, he definitely had highs and lows and the last few years were definitely lows. I mean, he's bouncing around from one place to the other and has no money. Um, this incident, well, here's an example. In Leadville, uh, he borrowed like five dollars from this guy. And he wasn't paying it back and the guy kept harassing him, you know, I want, it's just five dollars, you know? It's not the end of the world or whatever, but Doc doesn't have the money and, and you know, he ends up pawning a bunch of stuff. When he dies in Glenwood Springs, he has hardly anything. Um, he had a few possessions that were sent back to his family. There were no guns that were sent back. So he probably sold those long before.

• 1:31:52Speaker 05

  Um, there was a stick pin, a gold stick pin that had a diamond in it. The diamond was gone, so he probably hawked that and sold it. I mean.

• 1:32:00Steven Rinella?

  Why the hell did he?

• 1:32:02Speaker 05

  I mean, it was sad.

• 1:32:03Steven Rinella?

  But I was like, why, why did he get like, why did he get out of, why not just be a dentist?

• 1:32:07Speaker 05

  Well, um, I guess he didn't like it. I mean, you know, I mean, gambling, he was a gambling addict. He was addicted to it. I mean, he had to gamble.

• 1:32:15Steven Rinella?

  Was he drunk too?

• 1:32:17Speaker 05

  He was often drunk, yes. Um, and you know, if you want to be sympathetic to Doc, you can say he was self medicating. I mean, he had tuberculosis, so there's laudanum, any kind of tonic that you took had all kinds of alcohol in it. So, um, but the, the problem with the drinking was that, you know, he was what they would call a mean drunk. You know, he was not a good person, uh, and, and he was quick to, to get angry and get into fights. And as Wyatt Earp said, you know, Doc was his own worst enemy. Uh, and, and that was one of the things that kind of this bond that they had. You know, Wyatt kind of, and the brothers kind of took care of Doc when he got out of control. There's an account when they were in Gunnison, Colorado, and the guy remembered all of them. And he said, oh yeah, when, when Doc started to get out of control, they kind of took him aside and took him away.

• 1:33:02Speaker 05

  I mean, they kind of looked after him and once they separated, uh, he didn't have that, that, uh, you know, that family really. Uh, to, you know, his other brothers, they were, they were kind of like siblings in a way. Um, Doc was three years younger, uh, than Wyatt, but, but, uh, anyway, yeah, it was really for Doc at the end, it was very sad. But, but people that wrote about him said he was always a meticulous dresser. Um, and he didn't dress over the top or whatever, but he's just meticulous. Even, uh, in Tombstone, Big Nose Kate says, when he went out that day, that ended up in the OK Corral. It's like, you know, yeah, he'll be able to see me once I'm dressed or whatever. And so he got all dressed, he had a cane, he had an overcoat and it was a very sharp, you know, it took real pride in his appearance.

• 1:33:43Steven Rinella?

  If you were hanging out with Big Nose Kate, would you say, uh, excuse me, Big Nose Kate?

• 1:33:50Speaker 05

  Well, I don't think she liked that at all. Yeah. Well, and, uh, that's a name, here's the, this is what's so interesting. Um, that name comes from one person, Wyatt Earp. Wyatt Earp said she was.

• 1:34:01Steven Rinella?

  Oh, he's a bully too.

• 1:34:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, Big Nose Kate and big.

• 1:34:04Steven Rinella?

  He coined the term.

• 1:34:06Speaker 05

  Well, he's the only reference that we have. We don't see Big Nose Kate in contemporary newspapers. But his account that he left, he calls her Big Nose Kate and she left her own account and she never refers, you know, to that, of course. Now, here's, here's an interesting theory behind that name, though. A buddy of mine, Ron Hanson.

• 1:34:26Steven Rinella?

  She was Hungarian, right?

• 1:34:27Speaker 05

  Yes, she is. Yeah, her, my buddy of mine, Ron Hanson, who wrote The Fascination of Jesse James.

• 1:34:31Steven Rinella?

  That is an unbelievable book.

• 1:34:32Speaker 05

  It's a great book.

• 1:34:33Steven Rinella?

  Your buddy's with him?

• 1:34:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, he's a friend of mine and he wrote a blurb that's on the back of that book.

• 1:34:37Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 1:34:37Speaker 05

  Uh, but anyway, Ron, uh, had a great theory and I included it in my book. He says, you know, I always wondered about that name and I think I know where it came from. He thinks that it's a corruption of the term for Bravel, the Italian term banio. Cause a banio was a Bravel. He thinks they called her Banio Kate and it, it got corrupted into Big Nose just to kind of irk her. That's his theory, you know, so.

• 1:34:59Steven Rinella?

  Well, I mean, I don't want, I mean, you know, I don't want to be rude to her, but I mean, you've seen pictures of her.

• 1:35:04Speaker 05

  Yes. Yeah, but that's.

• 1:35:06Steven Rinella?

  I mean, it's not like.

• 1:35:07Speaker 05

  That's in later life. That's in later life.

• 1:35:09Steven Rinella?

  You know what's terrible? When I was in high school, we had a friend, her name was Michelle.

• 1:35:16Steven Rinella?

  She had a hook nose.

• 1:35:19Steven Rinella?

  Everybody called her Hook. She called herself Hook and her boyfriend called her Hook. I don't know what they call her nowadays.

• 1:35:26Speaker 05

  I'm sure it's not that.

• 1:35:27Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, she would even say.

• 1:35:28Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 1:35:29Steven Rinella?

  She's had, tell her Hook called.

• 1:35:32Speaker 05

  Well, you know, she was a perpetual, I say in the book, a perpetual Earp hater. And that tells me how.

• 1:35:37Steven Rinella?

  Big Nose Kate hated the Earps.

• 1:35:39Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, she hated, but it tells me how close that bond was between Wyatt and Doc, cause she was so jealous of that relationship and she just hated, she seethed uh, against Wyatt. She thought Wyatt was the one that ended, caused all their problems between her and Doc. You know, Wyatt just said, well, they were always a coralsome couple. That was all he had to say about it, but um.

• 1:35:58Steven Rinella?

  Was she a big booze or two?

• 1:36:00Speaker 05

  No, I don't think so. I mean, I haven't seen any references to her being a drinker, but, and she, in her own account, she claimed that, oh, you know, Doc had a whiskey bottle with him, but he never really drank. Well, I mean, everybody else says he drank, you know, all the time and he was often drunk. She was very kind in her recollections of Doc, but no, she hated the Earps. She thought that was the end of their relationship. She thought that how everything went wrong and they turned Doc wrong and, and she actually, I mean, she was so mad at Doc and they would often have these big. Horrible fights and she went to the sheriff Johnny Bean and implicated Doc in the Benson stage robbery. She said, oh yeah.

• 1:36:37Steven Rinella?

  Her boyfriend?

• 1:36:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, her boyfriend. And then she later said, this was my way of getting him away from the Earps. Well, he could have, he could have been hung, you know, because there was a guy, couple of guys, you know, was a guy killed, no, two people killed in that robbery. So she was that angry with him that she implicated him. And then of course, the prosecuting attorney, once he heard this story and there was no evidence, he said, he, he just asked the judge to dismiss the case. He said, there's no evidence whatsoever that what she's saying is true. There's nothing to back that up. But no, she did. She turned her lover in and tried to get him arrested. Well, he did get arrested, but it didn't go to trial.

• 1:37:12Steven Rinella?

  All right. Set up how, set up how it comes that, like rather, like the way you talk about these guys, rather than being like, there's a like super slick, you know, virtuous, right? White headed, western heroes. It's they're kind of just like drifters make and do.

• 1:37:37Speaker 05

  Well, in a way.

• 1:37:38Steven Rinella?

  Little gambling, little drinking.

• 1:37:39Speaker 05

  Yeah. In a way, I, I think, I think Wyatt is a little more than that.

• 1:37:43Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:37:43Speaker 05

  Um, you know, the fact that Wyatt builds a house in Tombstone tells me something that he's aspiring to more. Doc Holliday, throughout his life, never bought a house. He was always rooming somewhere. In fact, in Tombstone, he was at a boarding house, the Fly boarding house, which was right next to where the-

• 1:38:00Steven Rinella?

  What was it called?

• 1:38:01Speaker 05

  Flies, F L Y. Their last name was Fly. C S Fly was a famous photographer and he had a photo studio behind the boarding house. And anyway, so Doc had a, had a, had a room there and that's where Kate stayed when she would come to visit him. You know, they'd have these fights and they would separate. And then Kate said that she would get a letter from Doc and say, hey, would you come be, I'd like to see you again. And she, she came back at like three different times. She came back to see him. There was this off and on again.

• 1:38:27Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:28Speaker 05

  Uh, relationship. But, uh, but she couldn't stand the Earps. So I think that she couldn't stand to be in Tombstone for very long.

• 1:38:34Speaker 03

  How did Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp, like, how did it all start? Was Doc Holliday just gambling out his establishment at Wyatt Earp's establishment? And they got to know each other that way, or like?

• 1:38:44Speaker 05

  So that's a great question. I'm glad you asked it. And that's, that's one of the reasons for the book was that, you know, when we see the movies, they tell us that they're friends, but nobody knows how they became friends. They don't even cover that. It's like, uh, it's just accepted.

• 1:38:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38:58Speaker 05

  So what happened was, is that Doc and Wyatt had first met about 1877, uh, in Fort Griffin, uh, Texas. And, um, Wyatt was down there. He was being employed by the Achsen, Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad to track down a couple of, uh, these men had been robbing the railroad camps. Um, and he was employed to, to track them down. And when he got to Fort Griffin, uh, the owner of this, uh, saloon gambling establishment, uh, Wyatt asked him, he says, hey, you know, I'm looking for these guys. And he says, well, if anybody would know, it'd be Doc Holliday. Do you know him? And Wyatt didn't know him. And so they introduced each other. And Wyatt talked about this a lot. He says, you know, at the time, I wasn't looking for a friend. I was looking for information about, um, you know, where these guys might be.

• 1:39:43Speaker 05

  And Doc said, well, you know, uh, let me ask around and I'll see what I can do. And I guess Doc gave him a few leads that didn't pan out. But, but Doc had also pumped Wyatt about Dodge City, you know, cause Doc was kind of looking for, you know, someplace else where it might be a good place to land. And he was with Big Nose Kate at that time. And so Doc ends up in Dodge City and you remember I said he placed that ad, uh, for a dentist, uh, office? Um, but one night, uh, and this was happening almost constantly. You know, cowboys are being rowdy, wanting to shoot up the town. There was a big gang of cowboys starting to shoot off their guns. And then they see Wyatt Earp, uh, on the street near the Long Branch Saloon by himself. And they quickly surround him and they got their guns and they're, they're saying, we're gonna get you now.

• 1:40:27Speaker 03

  For what?

• 1:40:28Speaker 05

  They just didn't like him, you know, he was the law.

• 1:40:30Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:40:30Speaker 05

  And they were drunk, you know, and so we're gonna, we're gonna get you. Wyatt dearly, I mean, he, he thought he was gonna be killed. He thought that was gonna be it. Well, inside the Long Branch, they had glass windows and Doc Holliday's back.

• 1:40:41Speaker 03

  Swing indoors.

• 1:40:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. I don't know. I doubt it. But anyway, um. He sees through the window what's going on. And the guy, the dealer, he says, do you have a gun? And the guy says, yeah. So Doc gets it, Doc has his own gun. He comes out the door with both guns. His gun and a borrowed gun. His gun and a borrowed gun. He says, hold up your hands. And of course, the cowboys are all startled and they do. And then Wyatt goes for his guns. And they march him off to jail and lock him up. So Wyatt said this more than once. And he said, from that day forward, I was Doc Holliday's friend. You know, we were friends. I mean, he considered his life saved. And he thought he was indebted. I mean, he really thought his life was in danger. And he says, we were friends.

• 1:41:25Speaker 05

  And so, no matter the crazy stuff Doc did, um, you know, Wyatt stuck with him. And, and the cowboys in Tombstone, they even tried to use Doc against them by, by putting these, you know, claiming he was a stage robber and he was a bad character. Cause everybody in town knew they were friends. So by association, if they make Doc look bad, well, how are we, we're not gonna elect Wyatt Earp. He's a friend of this crazy, you know, thief, you know, Doc Holliday. But that really says something to me about Wyatt Earp. You know, that, that he, you know, had that bond. It's like, you saved my life, we're friends, you know? Doesn't care what you do, what happens, we're friends. Got it. And that's the way it was, uh, until, uh, you know, they separate eventually after the vendetta ride.

• 1:42:07Speaker 05

  Uh, and Doc, they, they do see each other one last time in Denver. And, uh, I actually found the notice, uh, often when people checked into a hotel, the paper would say, who's staying? You know, you could go through a list and Wyatt Earp, Trinidad, is staying at the hotel here. That was news. And Doc Holliday read that and he went down to meet him at the hotel. And Josephine Earp, Wyatt's last wife, wrote an account. And she said that, uh, they were just amazed. I mean, Doc was, just looked horrible. He was all thin, like an old man. But, you know, Wyatt just had this. So.

• 1:42:43Speaker 05

  No, I don't think like that, but anyway. Oh, I know. Is Steve your friend or?

• 1:42:49Steven Rinella?

  For the listener.

• 1:42:50Speaker 05

  I ask myself that every day. Yeah. But anyway, they embrace and they go to a table to the side and they're chatting. And then they stand up later, a few minutes later, however long it took. And they shake hands and she actually tells what Wyatt said and, and you know, Doc said something like, who would have imagined, you know, that, that, you know, that, that I would be the first to go or whatever between us. And, and anyway, they.

• 1:43:18Steven Rinella?

  Like he's prophesizing his death.

• 1:43:19Speaker 05

  Yes, he is. And Wyatt Earp comes back to the table and there's tears in his eyes.

• 1:43:25Steven Rinella?

  Huh.

• 1:43:26Speaker 05

  I mean, there is no other account of Wyatt Earp crying. I guarantee you, you're ever going to see that, but he's in tears after his friend parts. And he just knows he's not going to ever see him again.

• 1:43:37Steven Rinella?

  Huh, yeah.

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• 1:45:55Steven Rinella?

  Explain the mashup that occurs around the OK Corral. Like who the, I've read accounts of this. I still cannot explain or understand who's mad at who. Is there an efficient way of explaining?

• 1:46:07Speaker 05

  Well, I'm trying to make it brief.

• 1:46:09Steven Rinella?

  It is the most Byzantine.

• 1:46:11Speaker 05

  A lot of it has.

• 1:46:12Steven Rinella?

  Like, like he's mad about this and mad about that and was hired by him. It's not like, like.

• 1:46:19Speaker 05

  Well, there's lots of, there's lots of undercurrents. I mean, the Earp brothers, they were on the side of law and order.

• 1:46:26Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:46:27Speaker 05

  And Wyatt Earp had made this deal and it was not, it was not a good idea. You know, it was a form of gambling essentially, but the, the stage had been robbed, the Benson stage had been robbed and two people have been killed, the driver and a passenger.

• 1:46:42Steven Rinella?

  Good.

• 1:46:43Speaker 05

  Um, so.

• 1:46:44Steven Rinella?

  So we're, we're now on the outskirts of Tombstone.

• 1:46:47Speaker 05

  Yes. So the stagecoach was robbed and everything.

• 1:46:49Steven Rinella?

  And this is a way, this is like a scheduled piece of transportation into Tombstone.

• 1:46:54Speaker 05

  Well, going out of Tombstone.

• 1:46:55Steven Rinella?

  Okay. And it's robbed of what?

• 1:46:57Speaker 05

  Well, it wasn't robbed because it went, it went bad. So, uh, the guy that was the, you know, the, the guy riding shotgun, you know, when the, when the, uh, when the robbers say, hold, uh, he goes, I hold for nobody and they start blasting away and, and the driver's killed instantly. He falls down between the lines. So we got a runaway coach. They shoot at the coach as it's going away. They kill a passenger on top. You know, a mile or two or several miles later, they finally get this, you know, the, this, the coach stopped. So they know who the robbers were. They were three men. And there was a big hunt for them. Doc Holliday started initially, but Wyatt's involved, Virgil Erp's involved, Johnny Bean's involved. And they, they go out for miles and days.

• 1:47:40Steven Rinella?

  I got a quick question.

• 1:47:41Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:47:41Steven Rinella?

  Cause this is where I start getting confused.

• 1:47:42Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:47:44Steven Rinella?

  How in the world is it Doc Holliday's business?

• 1:47:47Speaker 05

  Cause Doc Holliday, this is something that Virgil Erp said, whenever there was a posse formed, Doc Holliday was always there to help out. It's like, yeah.

• 1:47:55Steven Rinella?

  So he's like, I'm sick, I'm half dead, I'm drunk.

• 1:47:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:47:58Steven Rinella?

  I'd love to throw in.

• 1:47:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, he does.

• 1:48:00Steven Rinella?

  Lots of action.

• 1:48:01Speaker 05

  It's a fun time. When he's needed. Well, plus his buddies are there, you know, there's Wyatt, there's Morgan, he's the same age as Morgan.

• 1:48:06Steven Rinella?

  So he just gets excited when there's a posse. It's like your buddy drew a tag, you know?

• 1:48:10Speaker 05

  Maybe. Well, I think he also thought it was the right thing to do and they needed help, you know, so.

• 1:48:15Steven Rinella?

  I got you. So he's like, he's one of the guys that likes to be in the posse.

• 1:48:18Speaker 05

  Yes, exactly. So, uh, but he wasn't on that posse for very long, but regardless. So they know who the robbers are, cause they catch one of them. And now I think I mentioned that Wyatt, he, he is eager to become the Cochise County Sheriff.

• 1:48:32Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:48:32Speaker 05

  He thinks if I catch these robbers, I, you know, that's gonna add a lot of credence to me and I'm gonna be a hero. So he approaches, this is the bad idea, he approaches one of the Cowboys, Ike Clanton, who's in cahoots with all the, he knows everybody, he's in cahoots with them. He's considered a leader of the Cowboys, actually. And he says a proposition. He says, you know, Wells Fargo's offering $5,000 for the capture of these guys. If you help me capture them, I'll give you the $5,000. All I want is the glory. You know, so just lead them to someplace where we can get. So Ike agrees, you know, he's, oh, he's gonna turn in, you know, these people that he knows for the $5,000. Um, well, later, uh, it, it gets a little complicated, but, but.

• 1:49:15Steven Rinella?

  Yes.

• 1:49:15Speaker 05

  Yeah. But Ike, Ike fears, he fears that Wyatt didn't keep his secret. Because Ike said, you know, I wanna find out if you'll, if it's, if that Roard is good, dead or alive. And so Wyatt finds out, he goes to the Wells Fargo office, they telegraph it, and yeah, it's good, dead or alive. But he doesn't tell the Wells Fargo man what's going on, but he reads the, the telegram. And so he just kind of assumes that, that he's doing, that Ike is doing something with Wyatt and he approaches Ike. He says, oh yeah, you know, are you, are you gonna go get those guys?

• 1:49:47Steven Rinella?

  I just got, I just got you confused. I have to under, I have to trust the other people. Are you confused?

• 1:49:52Steven Rinella?

  Uh, I'm, I'm waiting to hear more.

• 1:49:55Speaker 03

  Ike's gang is like making sure he's not screwing him over.

• 1:49:59Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 1:50:00Steven Rinella?

  So, but who sent the telegram?

• 1:50:01Speaker 05

  Wyatt sent the telegram to the Wells Fargo office.

• 1:50:03Steven Rinella?

  So Ike says, Ike, the, the, Ike, the inside man.

• 1:50:06Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:50:07Steven Rinella?

  He goes, hey, is the, I get 5,000 bucks dead or alive?

• 1:50:09Speaker 05

  Yes, and so they send the telegram.

• 1:50:10Steven Rinella?

  Wyatt's like, let me check.

• 1:50:12Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:50:12Steven Rinella?

  Wyatt telegrams the bank, Wells, what's now the bank, Wells Fargo. They say, no problem, dead's fine.

• 1:50:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:50:21Steven Rinella?

  But, but then what?

• 1:50:22Speaker 05

  Well, because.

• 1:50:23Steven Rinella?

  But I understand like the then.

• 1:50:24Speaker 05

  Well, the Wells Fargo man sees the telegram.

• 1:50:27Steven Rinella?

  From Wyatt.

• 1:50:28Speaker 05

  From Wyatt and back, and so he makes the connection, oh, and he said, he sees, he saw Wyatt and Ike talking together. So he makes the connection that Ike is working with Wyatt, and he mentions it to Ike. And Ike starts freaking out because.

• 1:50:44Steven Rinella?

  Oh, so he goes, oh, I understand you're working with Wyatt Earp to catch the bad guys.

• 1:50:48Speaker 03

  He's one of the bad guys.

• 1:50:50Speaker 05

  Yes, exactly, because Ike is fearing for his death because this happened to guy, men of the Cowboys who got caught or, or spilled the beans. They were, they disappeared.

• 1:50:59Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:59Speaker 05

  And so Ike is terrified, and so he goes and gets mad at Wyatt. Um, then he accuses Doc of telling people, and he just goes into this rampage and he's just angry. And you guys lie, I mean, you, you weren't supposed to tell about this. And, and then he gets drunk and he start, keeps ranting and raving all night long and he's, he says, you know, and, and then the next, the next day, and I'm skipping over a lot of stuff, but it's mostly Ike is the problem here. Um, the next day, uh, he's saying, you know, uh, he's telling people, as soon as those Earp brothers get up, I'm gonna get him, you know, or I'm gonna get Doc Holliday.

• 1:51:36Speaker 03

  Can I interrupt you for, like, the Cowboys are Ike's gang, right?

• 1:51:40Speaker 05

  Well, yes.

• 1:51:41Speaker 03

  It's like a loose.

• 1:51:42Speaker 05

  Yes, it's a loose amalgamation, and some people look at Ike as a leader or one, I should, there wasn't just one leader, but as one of the leading men. But yeah, the Cowboys are all, and you know, not all the Cowboys were stage robbers, mostly they were just wrestlers.

• 1:51:56Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:56Speaker 05

  Um.

• 1:51:56Steven Rinella?

  Are they like a, are they like a mafia style affiliation?

• 1:52:01Speaker 05

  You know, there's, you got certain ranchers that are fencing the cattle for the rustlers. They're actually going over the border to Mexico, which is just a day's ride away and stealing cattle. And there's, you know, there's butchers and others that they just wink wink and they buy the cattle. And that's why so many people and merchants in Tombstone tended to let things with the cowboys go. Because they were making money off of them.

• 1:52:23Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:52:23Speaker 05

  And the Earps were kind of a, you know, monkey wrench in this whole, you know, they were, they were putting to stop those kinds of things.

• 1:52:28Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 1:52:29Speaker 05

  So anyway, Ike, Ike is on a.

• 1:52:30Steven Rinella?

  You're doing a phenom- you're doing a phenomenal job.

• 1:52:33Speaker 05

  Oh, thanks. Anyway.

• 1:52:34Steven Rinella?

  This is the first time in my life I've ever understood this.

• 1:52:37Speaker 05

  Oh, well, good. Yeah. Well, I prefer you read the book, but uh.

• 1:52:40Steven Rinella?

  Well, no, no, I will. That's why, you know, I've never understood this.

• 1:52:43Speaker 05

  Okay. Well, Ike's on a rampage. He's drunk. He's making all kinds of threats. And these are on top of threats that other cowboys had made in the past. They just don't like the Earps. So the McCray brothers, they had threatened him in the past. Um, so, uh, Doc Holliday arrives in town. He'd been in Tucson and Ike's gets in an argument with him and they're threatening each other.

• 1:53:04Steven Rinella?

  And what's their, what are they arguing about?

• 1:53:06Speaker 05

  Well, because Ike believes that Doc is in on it too. That Doc has been spreading the word about this.

• 1:53:12Steven Rinella?

  Okay, cause he's buddies with the Earps.

• 1:53:13Speaker 05

  He's buddy with the Earps and he's in, and Wyatt's, you know.

• 1:53:15Steven Rinella?

  So these guys are like, they're drunk.

• 1:53:17Speaker 05

  They're drunk.

• 1:53:18Steven Rinella?

  They're accusing each other of stuff.

• 1:53:19Speaker 05

  And Wyatt had Doc come in to explain, cause Wyatt tells Ike, I didn't say anything. I didn't say anything to Doc. And when Doc gets here, he'll be able to, you know, tell you, well, Doc, you know, he, he gets angry quickly anyway. And so it's just mostly just kind of this, you know, shouting match between the two of them. But the next morning, okay, so Ike's going around.

• 1:53:38Steven Rinella?

  I think that if someone had said, um, let's all get together and talk this through.

• 1:53:44Speaker 05

  Maybe.

• 1:53:44Steven Rinella?

  Let's, let's just go forward with the $5,000 plan.

• 1:53:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:53:48Steven Rinella?

  That we had lined out.

• 1:53:49Speaker 05

  Well, and speaking of lines from the movie Tombstone, this is where it comes from that. So the night before the OK Corral, you know, Doc is confronting, um, Ike and he says, and Ike says, I'm not healed, you know? And Doc says, well, go get healed, you know? I'll meet you either. That's that kind of threats that are going on.

• 1:54:04Steven Rinella?

  Like, I don't have my gun.

• 1:54:05Speaker 05

  I don't have my gun. I'm not healed, you know? I don't have my gun. Uh, and Doc says, go get your gun. And, and so Ike spends all night up and he's gambling and he's drinking. He's not shaving. He's pretty disheveled, I'm thinking. And the next morning, you know, Virgil, people are. You have to remember, people that spend the night as gamblers, they go to bed late and they sleep late. So all these guys that are involved, like the Earps, they're getting up like at noon or what, I mean, that's, that's the normal day for them. They're sleeping till noon. So people are waking up Virgil and Wyatt and said, Ike's going around here and he's threatening to kill you guys. And Wyatt's saying, okay, I'm gonna sleep a little longer. And then they weren't too worried. Virgil's the same way.

• 1:54:46Speaker 07

  So you're saying the, the, the western trope of showing a showdown at high noon is largely derivative of their sleeping habits?

• 1:54:53Speaker 05

  It might be, yeah.

• 1:54:55Steven Rinella?

  I had a, I, I dated a girl for a while. She was a flight attendant and a gambling addict. Very erratic sleep hours.

• 1:55:01Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:55:02Steven Rinella?

  Cause you gotta double whammy there.

• 1:55:03Speaker 05

  Yeah. So, anyway, um, finally they get up and, and Virgil, he says, okay, I'm gonna go take care of Ike. And he finds, he, he finds him.

• 1:55:13Steven Rinella?

  Like, take care of him in what way?

• 1:55:14Speaker 05

  Well, and arrest him, you know, and take his gun away. Cause he's armed, you're not supposed to carry guns.

• 1:55:18Steven Rinella?

  So he's like, Ike's wandering around town hungover, drunk?

• 1:55:21Speaker 05

  Yes, threatening people, you know, shouting and he, he, he sneaks up behind him and clappers him over the head. Takes his gun. I mean, it was a serious blow cause he had to go to the doctor and get banded. But then they.

• 1:55:31Steven Rinella?

  It's like a comic quality doll.

• 1:55:33Speaker 05

  There is. So they take.

• 1:55:34Steven Rinella?

  I'm not making fun of the book. I'm saying like up, up until the shooting, there's like, there's like a comic quality.

• 1:55:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, because I mean, it's, it's crazy. But they take him to the court in Tombstone. And, uh, so Ike is there and Wyatt's in there and, uh, you know, uh, he's gonna get fined, of course. But that's where Ike says, you know, he starts yelling at, at Wyatt. He says, all I want is four feet of ground. You know, and you took my guns away. Give me my guns and, and, uh, there'll be a reason for a coroner's inquest. I mean, he just gets, goes on and on, hammering on.

• 1:56:04Steven Rinella?

  What's four feet of ground mean?

• 1:56:05Speaker 05

  Distance. All I want is four feet of ground between us to shoot you. He wants to have a gunfight, right? All I want is give me four feet of ground, you know? And uh.

• 1:56:14Steven Rinella?

  Wyatt didn't have to say like, what does that mean?

• 1:56:15Speaker 05

  No, he knew exactly, yeah, yeah. And so, uh, anyway, then the McCary brothers arrive, or the McCary, one of the brothers arrives in town. And after this incident with Ike, uh, you know, the McCarys had also been making threats. And Wyatt comes up to, uh, to Tom McCary, who's outside and Tom McCary says something like, well, if you want to fight, I'll fight you right now. Well, Wyatt gets his revolver and hammers him over the head. Took the fight right out of Tom McCary. But then when Frank McCary gets to town, it's like, why did Wyatt hit my brother? You know, and so all, so now the McCarys who are friends with the Clantons, they're all mad at the Earbs and they're continuing to make threats. And then people are, so this is what's amazing. So, you know, Virgil and Wyatt and Morgan, they're kind of wandering around the streets.

• 1:56:59Speaker 05

  There's a lot of people on the streets and people keep coming up to Virgil says, there's these guys that are going to kill you. You know, they're threatening you or whatever. And it's like, he knows who it is, but, but over and over. And then there's other men that come up and say, there's like this vigilante group or minutemen. And it says, hey, I can get like, you know, so many men together if you want help or whatever. Virgil says, no, no, I don't want any help.

• 1:57:17Steven Rinella?

  Like, we'll get guys to help you beat up the drunks.

• 1:57:20Speaker 05

  Exactly, the rest of.

• 1:57:21Steven Rinella?

  The other drunks.

• 1:57:22Speaker 05

  Yes, and Virgil says, no, no, you know, I can take care of it. Um, and finally, uh, you know, Virgil just gets so much of this. And even Johnny Bean, who's the, uh, uh, the sheriff, the, you know, the county sheriff. Uh, Virgil says, well, can you go and disarm them or whatever? And Johnny Bean, I don't really want to do that, you know? And so finally Virgil is fed up, you know, and after the last time, somebody says, these guys are down there by Fly's boarding house, which is where Doc is staying and which, you know, that's kind of interesting. They're threatening Doc and here they are just right, right next to where Doc lives. And so Virgil's had enough and he says, you know, those guys are carrying guns in town against the law. Um, you know, that's insult to me. It's disrespecting me in my office, that's disrespecting the laws and I'm going to go disarm them.

• 1:58:05Speaker 05

  And so he gets Wyatt, he gets Morgan, who are all there. And then, uh, Doc Holliday, you're not going to leave me out, are you? And Wyatt goes, well, he says it's going to be a hard fight. And Doc says, that's the kind I like. And so, uh, he's deputized, uh.

• 1:58:19Steven Rinella?

  Is that a paid gig?

• 1:58:21Speaker 05

  What's that?

• 1:58:21Steven Rinella?

  Like when Doc Holliday joins a posse or Doc Holliday does this, there's no financial.

• 1:58:26Speaker 05

  No, usually not. Sometimes Wells Fargo would reimburse them, uh, you know, kinda like a per diem or, you know, if they, uh, you know, food. I mean, sometimes they would give them money for the time they spent going after, uh, these individuals. And that was also another kinda sore point between the Earp brothers and Johnny Bean. Uh, Johnny Bean, who was the county sheriff, who was leading that posse after the stage robbers we talked about, um, he paid himself and his men, but he didn't pay the Earps. And the Earp, well, what about, we were riding with you, whatever. And finally Wells Fargo, I guess, coughed up some money for him. But anyway, Virgil Earp decides, I'm gonna go down there. I hear they're down here by, uh, you know, Fly's boarding house. So we got Wyatt, we got Virgil, we got Morgan, and we got Doc Holliday.

• 1:59:08Speaker 03

  And Virgil has the authority to do that 'cause he's a US Marshal?

• 1:59:12Speaker 05

  Well, it's mostly 'cause at that time, he's also the chief of police of Tombstone. So he's both chief of police and a deputy US Marshal. So he's in charge of enforcing Tombstone's laws. Um, and he's just sick of these threats. I mean, you know, after a while, it's like, you know, you can keep saying, I'm gonna kill you, I'm gonna kill you. And, you know, pretty soon you're, you're kinda done with that, right? Um, because the guy might kill you. Uh, you don't know when the threat ends and when it becomes real. But mainly, they're breaking the law, so I'm gonna disarm him. So they round the corner and they see the, you know, they see the Clantons and they see the Macarries up there and they see the horses, there's a couple of horses, and they see Johnny Bean. And Johnny Bean's been talking to him. And Johnny Bean keeps, starts rushing towards Earps and Holliday and he keeps looking back over his shoulder. He's scared, you know, and he says-

• 1:59:57Steven Rinella?

  He's gonna get shot in the back?

• 1:59:58Speaker 05

  Well, not that he's gonna get shot in the back, he's, he's scared of what's gonna happen. And he says, Virgil, don't go down there. They're gonna, you know, there'll be, you know, there's gonna be a battle, there's gonna be war. Don't go down there. And Virgil says, I'm gonna disarm him. And then Johnny Bean lies. He says, I've already disarmed him. Well, he had not disarmed him. And really, all Johnny Bean had to say if he wanted to prevent this, he could have said, they're leaving town. Because if you're leaving town, you can have your guns. He doesn't say that. In fact, you know, he asked him to leave town, but they said, oh, we're gonna hang around a little bit longer. So, anyway, he lies to him, he's trying to get, you know, I've already disarmed him. And so, this kinda breezes a little air of relief into Earps and Doc Holliday. Oh, okay, they put their guns away, you know.

• 2:00:37Steven Rinella?

  Oh, they believe him.

• 2:00:38Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, they believe him, yeah, because, uh, but Virgil's still going down there. But he had his, uh, he had his revolver in his waistband at the front, where he could grab it easily. So he pushes it back around, or whichever side it was. And, uh, he takes the, he has this cane, it was Doc Holliday's cane, he was carrying. And then he had given his shotgun to Doc Holliday, who was supposed to hide it under his long coat, which he, which he did. Um, but they're not pulling out their guns, and like I said, White put his, he carried his gun in a coat pocket. Which is an aside, is a very odd, all the movies, they're wearing gun leather, right? But not at the OK Corral, these, I mean, White had his in a pocket, Doc Holliday had a revolver in his pocket. And Virgil had his gun in a waistband, it wasn't even a gun holster built.

• 2:01:22Speaker 05

  Uh, so anyway, they're relieved, okay, we're still gonna go down there. Um, but, uh, they think that there's no guns.

• 2:01:29Steven Rinella?

  You think they think that?

• 2:01:30Speaker 05

  They think that, yes, because that, because they mentioned how they had put their guns away. They, they believed the sheriff, you know, why would he lie to us? Uh, he says, I've already disarmed him.

• 2:01:40Steven Rinella?

  I, I don't wanna overplay this part, but at this point, how many of these people do you think are, in some degree, intoxicated?

• 2:01:48Speaker 05

  Well, Ike is definitely intoxicated. Um, I don't know that Doc Holliday was intoxicated. Some people believe that he might have been, but from what I've read, I mean, he had just gotten up a short time before. I, I mean, there's no accounts of him carousing in the bars and all that stuff. So I don't think he was inebriated, but he might have had a few drinks, I mean, I don't know.

• 2:02:09Steven Rinella?

  But they're like, there, there's like a, there's a clear-headed quality.

• 2:02:12Speaker 05

  Yes, Wyatt Earp, and Wyatt Earp wasn't known to drink. And I can't say he was a teetotaler, but some people do, but he, he abstained, for the most part. Virgil hadn't been drinking, Morgan probably hadn't been drinking, and I really don't think either of the McCary brothers, Frank or Tom, had been drinking.

• 2:02:28Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 2:02:29Speaker 05

  Or Billy Clanton, who was just, you know, like nineteen years old. Uh, but Ike was definitely, I mean, he was way over the top, out of control, drunk. And like I said, it was all his ranting and raving threats that really brought this to a head. Uh, so they get close and now, keep in mind, this lot that they're in, near the O.K. Corral, is, they say from fifteen to nineteen feet wide, it's a very constricted space. There's actually a couple of horses there. They come down there and the first thing they see is these guys have their guns. They are armed. And, uh, so the first thing Virgil says, "Boys, I want your guns." Well, they immediately reach for their guns and Virgil says, "Hold, I, you know, I don't want that." He holds the cane up. And Wyatt Earp admitted in his testimony that he was the first one to fire. He fires at Frank McCary.

• 2:03:14Speaker 05

  He said, "I fired first," because he considered Frank to be the best shot and the coolest under fire. So he wants to take him out first. He hits him in the stomach, doesn't kill him right away. So Wyatt Earp actually opens the gunfight there at the O.K. Corral. Um, after that-

• 2:03:29Steven Rinella?

  If he hadn't shot, do you think there would have been shots fired?

• 2:03:33Speaker 05

  Um, I don't know. I, I, I do know that Wyatt Earp thought that there were gonna be shot, or he wouldn't have done that. He felt that it was imminent. In fact, uh, they even talked about, they kept bringing up the word "fight." You know, they talked about fight, you know, "What if they fight, you know? Well, we'll shoot their horses and, you know, all this kind of stuff." They were kind of thinking about, you know, Wyatt said, you know, "We were pretty sure they were gonna fight." And so, when they looked like they were going for their guns, not to just turn them over, but to actually, you know, kill, uh, he decides, "I'm gonna take out," and that's what he testified, "I took him out first." Um, and there's just that very split second, in fact, they say that, uh, Wyatt shot and the shot from Frank, which missed, uh, were with the split second, I mean, they thought it was a single shot. It was very close.

• 2:04:18Speaker 05

  Um, and then there was this brief hesitation or pause. It was like, it was almost like this second where, "Is this really happening?" It's like they're kind of processing this, "We've actually started this thing."

• 2:04:30Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:04:30Speaker 05

  And then it just gets crazy, thirty seconds, thirty shots.

• 2:04:35Speaker 05

  Doc Holliday fires his shotgun at Tom McClary, who's kinda hiding behind a horse. Wyatt ends up hitting the horse, the horse, you know, jerks away. And then Doc Holliday hits him once in the side with the one barrel. And Tom McClary starts running away and collapses like less than a block away. I mean, sent like fourteen pellets right into his chest cavity. Doc tried to shoot a second time, something malfunctioned with his gun. He throws it down, the shotgun, he throws it down, he goes for his revolver. By this time, we have Frank McClary, he's wounded in the stomach. He's kinda holding on to this horse, getting out to the middle of the street, the horse breaks away. And Doc Holliday is, is getting ready to shoot.

• 2:05:17Speaker 05

  That's when Frank says, "Doc Holliday, I have you now," or whatever. And Doc Holliday says, "You're a daisy if you do." And Doc Holliday fires, but also before Doc Holliday get fired.

• 2:05:28Steven Rinella?

  Back up.

• 2:05:29Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 2:05:30Steven Rinella?

  Why does he yell, "Doc Holliday, I have you now"?

• 2:05:33Speaker 05

  Because he had his gun on him, you know, Doc Holliday's out there in the street, you know, he has no protection.

• 2:05:37Steven Rinella?

  And he decides just to advertise this.

• 2:05:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, he says, "I have you now." And then Doc Holliday, and this is in the testimony, says, "You're a daisy if you have." And, but Morgan Earp, he ends up shooting Frank and hits him in the head. And Frank just goes down immediately. And there's a big scuffle, I mean, his people, people are starting, you know, it's thirty seconds. People are starting to gather and they're gathering around Frank McClary, who's down here on the ground. And, and Doc Holliday's starting to yell, "He tried to kill me, I'm gonna kill that SOB or whatever." And they're pulling him back. Morgan Earp, he was hit across his shoulder blades, but he's the one that, even on the ground, he raises his revolver. He's the one that kills, essentially the killing shot of Frank McClary. There's one other individual, Billy Clanton.

• 2:06:20Speaker 05

  He's up against the wall of this building on the side of the lot, and he's wounded several times. And as he's kinda, you know, sliding down against the wall, he's trying to, he's fiddling with his revolver. And C.S. Fly, the gallery owner, he has a Henry rifle, he goes up to him and he takes the revolver away. And Billy Clanton says, "Can you get me more cartridges?" You know, he's saying, "I need more cartridges," or whatever. Yeah, and, and they, they take him to a building and, and he has a gruesome death. I mean, people are coming in and, "Get the people away, you know, get the crowd away." And, and, yeah, it was not a pleasant death for him.

• 2:06:58Speaker 02

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• 2:09:12Speaker 03

  What about drunk Ike? What was going on with him?

• 2:09:15Speaker 05

  Oh, that's a good question, yes. So, uh, that's what, in fact, that's one of the big things in the gunfight. You know, Ike suddenly sobers up and, uh, he runs up to Wyatt after those first shots and he says, "I'm unarmed, I'm unarmed," you know. He says, "Well, you know, the fight has commenced, get out of here, the fight has commenced." And so Ike takes off running. Yeah, he just runs around. So Wyatt has a chance just to shoot him? He could have shot him, yes, but he says, "The fight has commenced." And, uh, "Get out of here, or get armed," or whatever. I can't remember the exact phrase, but he does say, "The fight has commenced," and he pushes Ike away. God, these guys have things they say that just people wouldn't say nowadays. Yeah, that's true. In a fight. Yeah. It is so surreal. "I've got you now." Yeah. We can bring that back. Yeah, it's so surreal. "The fight has commenced."

• 2:09:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's so surreal also because, I mean, you know, there's black powder smoke, there's flame coming out of the barrels of these pistols, and Ike is up there with Wyatt trying, "I'm unarmed, you know, and don't shoot me." And, uh... And he's the reason they're there. He's the reason they're there, yes. Uh, and he runs away, doesn't help his brother, his poor little brother's getting murdered. And gets out of there un- unharmed. Unscathed, yes. Yeah. And then Ike later, of course, he presses charges against the Earps and Holliday, and that's how we have this, this hearing. It's called the Spicer Hearing, and it's pages and pages of testimony, and it's some of the most confusing reading. I mean, it's like one person says one thing, the other person does the other, and they're eyewitnesses, nobody really agrees with one another. And my favorite quote is from the

• 2:10:44Speaker 05

  dressmaker across the street, and she saw the whole thing, and they asked her a specific question, she goes, "I don't know, it was all confusion." It was, and even for the people that were involved, it was confusion. I mean, it was just a total chaos in those thirty seconds. It's like Little Big Horn. Exactly, yeah. But guess who's not hurt? Wyatt Earp. The one guy that doesn't get, you know, other than Ike, not a scratch on Wyatt Earp, and he's right in the middle of it. Virgil Earp's wounded, Doc Holliday gets a, a flesh wound in his hip, uh, Morgan Earp's gets a pretty serious wound in his shoulder. And then later, Doc Holliday goes up to his room, and Kate Elders there, big-nosed Kate, and she writes about this, and, and, uh, he starts crying, and he says, "It was awful, just awful."

• 2:11:29Steven Rinella?

  What didn't you like about it?

• 2:11:30Speaker 05

  I think the killing. I think, I mean, even though he's a, even though Doc is angry, it's like, you know, when you kill somebody, I think that's a whole different layer, right?

• 2:11:41Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:41Speaker 05

  You know, I think it's, I think, you know, these men.

• 2:11:44Steven Rinella?

  I mean, I didn't, I didn't mean that like that. I, I just, I, I thought there's some other, cause I was, when I said that, what was he crying about? Like, none of his buddies got killed.

• 2:11:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, no, but it's, I think it's just the fact these men were killed.

• 2:11:53Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I understand.

• 2:11:53Speaker 05

  And they had, I mean, they had to, I mean, uh, but, uh, you know, it wasn't about his wound. I mean, it was just this, it was horrific to him that, that they, you know, I mean, he sent, you know, 14 pellets into the chest cavity of Tom McCary, and you know, he's dead. So, I mean, it's, it was, I think, very sobering. Um, but yeah, Ike, Ike Clanton is the villain in all that. He's the one that really egged things on and, uh, yeah, and Ike Clanton gets killed himself, oh, a few years later, and again, he's running away. He was, he, there were some guys looking for him for rusting cattle and, and.

• 2:12:30Steven Rinella?

  Looking for him for something unrelated.

• 2:12:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, unrelated to this, and he approaches cabin. He didn't know that these guys are in there, and as soon as he does, he jumps on his horse and starts, you know, skedaddling and, and this is, nobody's afraid to shoot somebody in the back if you're a lawman, so they blaze away at him and he tumbles off his horse and it's the one time he wasn't able to run away, so.

• 2:12:49Steven Rinella?

  Wow.

• 2:12:52Steven Rinella?

  Dude, that was a great, uh, I now understand.

• 2:12:55Speaker 05

  Oh, good.

• 2:12:55Steven Rinella?

  Things out.

• 2:12:56Speaker 05

  Good, good.

• 2:12:57Speaker 06

  There's the pre and post-understanding, Steve.

• 2:13:01Speaker 05

  Well, it's more clear in the book. I, I'm a much better writer than I am a narrator, so.

• 2:13:05Steven Rinella?

  That must mean you're pretty hell of a good writer.

• 2:13:07Speaker 05

  Oh, well, thanks. I hope so, yeah.

• 2:13:09Steven Rinella?

  What's your next book you're doing?

• 2:13:11Speaker 05

  So, the next book is, um, uh, focusing on Jesse and Frank James and the Civil War as bushwhackers and under Bloody Bill Anderson and.

• 2:13:18Steven Rinella?

  Oh, their Civil War time.

• 2:13:20Speaker 05

  Yes, and how that, and how that leads to their outlawery, and I'm gonna talk a little bit about the birth of the American outlaw, cause they're really the quintessential outlaw, Jesse and Frank James, the James Younger gang. Uh, so that, that, the book is called Bushwhackers, actually, so it's gonna focus on that, that period, but like I say, take us into how that led to their outlaw career.

• 2:13:40Steven Rinella?

  We just spent some time reading about, cause this, this project we're working on about the Buffalo Hyde Hunters.

• 2:13:48Steven Rinella?

  One of these main, one of the main Buffalo hide hunters, uh, that, that wrote a very good account of his time. He was involved in those, like those borderlands civil war skirmishes. Man, that was like.

• 2:14:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:14:02Steven Rinella?

  The, the paramilitary shit.

• 2:14:04Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. The border ruffians.

• 2:14:06Steven Rinella?

  Like.

• 2:14:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:14:07Steven Rinella?

  This, the, the, like, kinda like the plainclothes, paramilitary aspect of the civil war. Um, is gruesome.

• 2:14:18Speaker 05

  Well, you know, Bloody Bill, uh, he earned that, uh, appellation. Uh, I mean, he had scalps tied to his, uh, horse's bridle. I mean, they scalped the soldiers that they killed. I mean, I, the hatred was so deep.

• 2:14:31Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:32Speaker 05

  I mean, so deep. And the things they were doing to one. I mean, one of the things that led to Jesse joining the, uh, up with the Quantrell or, or Bloody Bill was, you know, this federal militia came to the home of his, uh, stepfather and mother, and they whipped him trying to get information, uh, where Frank was. And then they strung up his stepfather, uh, Dr. Ruben Samuel. Some people think that, that actually caused brain damage. They strung him up. They didn't kill him. And that, you know, it was so painful that the stepfather actually did tell him where Frank and the other bushwhackers were. But I mean, to see that as a teenager, um, you know, and then the things he experienced, uh, as a teenager in battle, and to see his friends killed, to kill people. I mean, he was indoctrinated to this violence.

• 2:15:15Steven Rinella?

  Sure.

• 2:15:16Speaker 05

  It, it, just the right age to, to become a way of life.

• 2:15:20Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm. Um, Ron, Ron Hanson.

• 2:15:26Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 2:15:26Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Uh, you know what he says in his book? That I don't know if it's true, maybe you can tell if it's true or not. I asked, I've asked a lot of people this. The, okay, so, uh,

• 2:15:40Steven Rinella?

  his book is The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford.

• 2:15:45Steven Rinella?

  So a guy, Robert Ford was then assassinated.

• 2:15:49Speaker 05

  Mm hmm. Yes.

• 2:15:49Steven Rinella?

  So Robert Ford kills Jesse James, then a guy comes to kill Robert Ford.

• 2:15:54Speaker 05

  Ed Kelly.

• 2:15:55Steven Rinella?

  And Robert, in his book, in Hanson's book, he says that, that the guy that kills Robert Ford has a coach gun. Not only is the coach gun loaded with shot, but he takes a bunch of pipe filings.

• 2:16:10Steven Rinella?

  He explains he takes little sections of pipe and takes a cold chisel and starts knocking off pipe fragments and uses a funnel to fill the barrels full of pipe fragments.

• 2:16:24Steven Rinella?

  And, and, and you hear different accounts. Robert Ford gets cut in half near the neck or gets cut in half near the waist. Is that true?

• 2:16:32Speaker 05

  So the pipe filing story, um, I just looked this, uh, the reports from Creed, Colorado up that were published in the papers in 1892. And, um, uh, I've seen no mentions of the pipe filings, but.

• 2:16:45Steven Rinella?

  So Ryan Hanson maybe made that up?

• 2:16:47Speaker 05

  Maybe, yeah. And then, um, but as far as the, the reports do say it, it like severed the jugular. It was, it was in the neck area and just ripped it out. Um, it said that, you know, um, Ed Kelly, uh, it was kind of interesting because Ed Kelly was kind of standing at the entrance to the bar and that he had a confederate or somebody that came up and handed him the shotgun. He didn't walk up with the shotgun in his hands. Someone handed him the shotgun and then he raised it up and he said, hello, Bob, which is what Billy said. Billy said that, you know, too. And Bob turns around and he said, Bob Ford started to go for his vest or hip pocket. And just as he was reaching down, then he let go with the shotgun and it said,

• 2:17:32Speaker 05

  you know, it knocked Bob Ford back and it said he rolled over on his side and died just like that with his hands still on his hip. And there was apparently Ed Kelly walked up and there was a gun, a revolver there and Ed Kelly took the gun. But Ed Kelly ends up getting killed, you know, in Oklahoma later, you know.

• 2:17:50Steven Rinella?

  He goes Russian nesting dolls and gunshot wounds.

• 2:17:53Speaker 05

  He goes, he goes to prison. Um, but all these.

• 2:17:56Steven Rinella?

  And he just killed Ford just to be the guy that killed Ford.

• 2:17:58Speaker 05

  I think so, yeah. Well, some people say he might've had some kind of connection, uh, with Jesse. But here's the cool thing. Guess who showed up at the funeral of Bob Ford in Creed? Frank James. What? Yes, Frank James went to- To pay his respects. To, to make sure, I think, that Bob Ford was dead. I mean, and I also think just to stand over him and say, you know, you killed my brother and- Not still, not to pay his respects. Yeah, not to pay his respects, no. But yeah, he made the trip from Missouri to Creed. Um, but anyway, uh, yeah, Ed Kelly is killed. Well, you know, these people, all these people write a letter to get him released from prison a few years later, and he's released. Uh, but then he's, I can't remember the town in Oklahoma,

• 2:18:42Speaker 05

  but he's kind of a belligerent character and he gets, he gets in a feud with a local policeman. And then they have a fight, you know, and they're grappling with one another and, and he's trying to get the policeman's gun. Ed Kelly fired all his bullets and was out. And actually hits himself in the leg, but they're still grappling and this policeman's trying to, you know, get his gun back. And so apparently a bystander went up and grabbed Ed Kelly's arm so the policeman could get his gun, and then he shoots and kills Ed Kelly. So, that's, that's the demise of Kelly, yeah. So did anybody then avenge? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I think that's where the story ends. Um- Wow, I didn't know that detail. Yeah, but you know, the, the Bob Ford, it's, it's a, it's a sad story. He thought he was gonna be a hero for killing Jesse James and,

• 2:19:26Speaker 05

  you know, his brother Charlie commits suicide, and I think he commits suicide because he's dealing with the effects of, you know, having been a part of this. Uh, and you know, they have a stage play, they go around in their boot and, you know, it's really a lot like the movie, actually. And I think the movie's great. I think Brad Pitt's the best, yeah, the best Jesse James ever. Um, but no, it's, it's, uh, yeah, he, he thought he was gonna be wealthy and he was killing this famous outlaw, but, uh, you know, nobody thought that was cool. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. Well, here's the thing, Steve. I mean, this was like a political, a paid political assassination. You know, he wasn't arrested. I mean, he hadn't been tried.

• 2:20:04Speaker 05

  Uh, you know, the governor was in cahoots and actually, you know, organized this assassination. It was a government-funded assassination. I mean, Billy, Jesse had been convicted of no robbery whatsoever. Yeah, no, that's good, yeah, interesting point. And then, you know, Jesse had always said, and Frank says, "All we want is a fair trial," or whatever. And, uh.

• 2:20:25Steven Rinella?

  Oh, yeah, but those guys were cold-blooded kids, dude.

• 2:20:28Speaker 05

  Well, they were, but, but here's my point. So, um, Frank James, because, you know, he sees the writing on the wall, you know, he thinks, "Who's gonna come after me?" He says, "I could be out chopping wood and somebody's gonna shoot me," whatever. So he arranges this surrender to the governor. And, uh, Frank has tried twice, uh, for a crime in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, and also for the gallup, in Gallatin, for the, the crime of a train robbery where a man was murdered, uh, near Winston, Missouri. And, uh, he's acquitted in both things. He never committed a crime for the rest of his life. He actually did exactly what he was gonna say. You know, "All I want is a fair trial." He got it, and he was, was a perfect citizen, uh, for the, you know. And this is the other bizarre thing about Frank and Jesse.

• 2:21:11Speaker 05

  Um, you know, a lot of people think of us like psychopaths. Like you said, they're murderers or whatever. Man, their wives, after they were dead, both of them said, "That was the best husband you could ever have." I mean, they swore they were just the most gentle, the best husband that you could ever have, uh, about Frank and Jesse.

• 2:21:28Steven Rinella?

  Hadn't met me.

• 2:21:28Speaker 05

  Well, that's right. Well, you know, here's what I think about it. Uh, have you read the book American Sniper by Chris Kyle?

• 2:21:34Steven Rinella?

  No, I'm familiar with it.

• 2:21:36Speaker 05

  Okay, well, Chris Kyle writes about how the war in the Middle East, he was a sniper, and how it can numb you to the violence and the killing. And there's one point in here where he talks about, at a distance, he shoots this, uh, enemy on a motorcycle, and there's a guy with him, a spotter. And he, the guy falls off his motorcycle, kinda funny, and they're laughing about it. You know, they're laughing about murder, killing this guy.

• 2:22:00Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:01Speaker 05

  He's become numb. You know, he's over there, he's seen us, he's killing people. And I think that's what the Civil War did to Frank and Jesse. They did so much killing, um, that they were just numb to the violence. And yet they could still, you know, Jesse had two children, he could be a loving father, but if you threaten me, or you get in my way, he had no hesitation about killing you. I mean, it meant nothing to him to kill somebody. So it's this weird dichotomy, you know, you can be a family man, but yet you can kill at the, you know, the flip of a switch.

• 2:22:30Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. I like those understandings, though. I mean, it's just like, uh, the complexities of people's motivations.

• 2:22:39Steven Rinella?

  We get into that a fair bit and talking about these like these like I keep talking about this Hyde Hunter thing.

• 2:22:45Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 2:22:46Steven Rinella?

  Just how most people have put these guys like these like they're just doing it for the killing buffalo for the purpose of denying the future of the animals. Do you know what I mean? When it was like a much more complex picture of civil war economics, right?

• 2:23:01Speaker 05

  Now, is that an audio book?

• 2:23:02Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it is.

• 2:23:03Speaker 05

  Okay, and when's that coming out?

• 2:23:04Steven Rinella?

  It's already out.

• 2:23:05Speaker 05

  Oh, cool.

• 2:23:06Steven Rinella?

  Go listen right now, brother.

• 2:23:07Speaker 05

  I'll have to listen to it.

• 2:23:08Steven Rinella?

  Wherever you get your audio books, you know?

• 2:23:09Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 2:23:10Steven Rinella?

  Well, tell me some banjo jokes. Grab that banjo and tell me.

• 2:23:12Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 2:23:13Steven Rinella?

  You said you know more banjo jokes than anybody on the planet.

• 2:23:15Speaker 05

  So, what do you call a pretty gal on a banjo player's arm?

• 2:23:23Steven Rinella?

  I got nothing.

• 2:23:24Speaker 05

  A tattoo.

• 2:23:29Speaker 05

  What do you, what do you say to a banjo player in a three-piece suit? Will the defendant please write?

• 2:23:38Speaker 05

  Those are really old jokes, so I'm glad you'd never heard of them before.

• 2:23:41Steven Rinella?

  No, no, I haven't heard those.

• 2:23:42Speaker 05

  So, this is a five-string banjo, Vega Folk Ranger 1963. The style I play is a historic style. It's called Frailie or Clawhammer, but it's an African style. I mean, the banjo is an African instrument.

• 2:23:54Steven Rinella?

  Did not know.

• 2:23:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's called a, it was called a banzar, a banja. And anyway, the knowledge of the banjo was brought here by the enslaved. And, you know, it's, it's, they tried to take everything from their humanity, but once they got to the New World, they made the things from their culture, and the banjo was one. It was a gourd with a stick attached.

• 2:24:14Steven Rinella?

  Oh, really?

• 2:24:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, so the banjo's a survivor of that really awful era. What do you want to hear? Anything?

• 2:24:24Steven Rinella?

  Give me some options.

• 2:24:25Speaker 05

  Okay, well, I got Old Dan Tucker. Let's see, Old Dan Tucker.

• 2:24:41Speaker 05

  I'll just do one verse. Old Dan Tucker down in town, ride a goat and lead a hound. The hound gave a howl, the goat gave a jump. Threw old Dan a straddle, "Stump, get out the way! Get out the way! Get out the way, old Dan Tucker, he's too late to get his supper. Get out the way! Get out the way! Get out the way, old Dan Tucker, he's too late to get his supper."

• 2:25:04Steven Rinella?

  Alright. There you go. Hit us with another one, that was so short.

• 2:25:08Speaker 05

  That was so short.

• 2:25:09Steven Rinella?

  Hit us with two more shorties.

• 2:25:11Speaker 05

  Okay, alright.

• 2:25:26Speaker 05

  Get out the way!

• 2:25:28Steven Rinella?

  Oh no, it's a different song!

• 2:25:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, I see.

• 2:25:30Speaker 04

  I heard some turkey in a straw.

• 2:25:32Speaker 05

  Yeah. Turkey in a straw! Turkey in a head! Bullfrog danced with his mother-in-law, played a little tune called "Turkey in the Straw."

• 2:25:39Steven Rinella?

  Well, that is a different song.

• 2:25:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is a different song. I said it right.

• 2:25:42Steven Rinella?

  Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you meant that, I thought, I'm sorry. I thought you meant that I was asking for more Dan Tucker.

• 2:25:48Speaker 05

  Oh, no, I, I, I just messed it up. But here's one you'll like, um, I'll just do one verse, let's see.

• 2:25:58Speaker 05

  If Jesse was your friend, on him you could depend. If it be true, I am sure, He always wore the belt that would equalize the wealth. He would rob the rich for the poor. It was with his brother Frank, he robbed the gallatin bank, Carry the money from the town. It was at that very place, they had a little chase, For they shot Captain Sheets to the ground. Jesse had a wife, the pride of his life. His children, they were brave. But the dirty little coward, that shot Mr. Howard, Has laid Jesse James in his grave.

• 2:26:42Speaker 03

  Very good.

• 2:26:43Steven Rinella?

  He's speaking about Ford.

• 2:26:44Speaker 05

  Yes, dirty little coward.

• 2:26:46Steven Rinella?

  And Jesse James was living under the name.

• 2:26:48Speaker 05

  Mr. Howard, yeah.

• 2:26:50Steven Rinella?

  Wow. Dude, that's great, man.

• 2:26:52Speaker 05

  Oh, thanks, yeah.

• 2:26:53Steven Rinella?

  So, your work as a historian and your interest in banjo playing, are they like hand in hand? Or was it different paths?

• 2:26:59Speaker 05

  No, it's hand in hand, but of course, I always, as a kid, was fascinated by the banjo. And then my first, and I was starting to take lessons. Anyway, my first summer job at the park service is at a place called Bent-Sold-Fort National Historic Site near La Huntan. They were a big in the Buffalo Road trade on the southern plains. And so, I had my banjo there and I quickly learned that Scruggs style playing was not around in the 1840s, that's 1940s. So, I started getting interested in the historic styles of playing the banjo and the historic music. And even today, when I'm doing research in diaries and journals, if there's a reference to a song or a tune, you know, I make note of that. And so, I'll do it in my programs.

• 2:27:42Speaker 05

  I'll do programs of historic music of the West.

• 2:27:45Steven Rinella?

  John Cook's memoir is full of songs.

• 2:27:47Speaker 05

  Oh, it is.

• 2:27:48Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:48Speaker 05

  I didn't know that.

• 2:27:49Speaker 03

  You did the definitive guide to the Santa Fe wagons. You ought to do the history of the banjo.

• 2:27:54Speaker 05

  Well.

• 2:27:54Speaker 03

  Book on that.

• 2:27:55Speaker 05

  There's been some books on that, actually. So, somebody beat me to the punch on that one. But, you know, to me, it helps bring history alive when you can play the music, you know, the Jesse James or Billy the Kid. You know, Billy the Kid was a huge fan of Turkey in the Straw. But, um, he was, actually, but he didn't call it Turkey in the Straw. He would tell the musician, he was a great dancer, went to the Bielis and Fandagos. He would say to the musicians, "Don't forget the guayna. Don't forget to play the guayna." So, in New Mexico, well, in the New World, the Spaniards did not have a term for the wild turkey. So, they called it the guayna de la tierra, the chicken of the region or the earth.

• 2:28:33Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, but what about the wajalote?

• 2:28:34Speaker 05

  The wajalote?

• 2:28:35Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, like in Sonora, they call turkeys wajalote.

• 2:28:37Speaker 05

  Oh, really? I don't, yeah, I didn't know that.

• 2:28:39Steven Rinella?

  Oh, you didn't know, okay.

• 2:28:40Speaker 05

  No, but anyway, in New Mexico, they refer to the wild turkey as the guayna. So, when Billy the Kid said, "Don't forget the guayna," he meant Turkey in the Straw.

• 2:28:48Steven Rinella?

  Really?

• 2:28:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:28:50Steven Rinella?

  I got one last question for you. Because you strike me as a fellow that would be able to do this. What, you big turkey hunter?

• 2:28:56Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 2:28:56Steven Rinella?

  Do you mouth call? Natural, natural mouth call?

• 2:28:59Speaker 05

  No, I don't. Oh, I have done natural mouth call sometimes, yes, but.

• 2:29:03Steven Rinella?

  Let's hear it.

• 2:29:03Speaker 05

  It's still, it's not very good. It's just, I mean, I just throw that in. Usually I do.

• 2:29:11Steven Rinella?

  When I think of Missouri.

• 2:29:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:29:13Steven Rinella?

  Turkey hunting, I think it do is they could tear it up.

• 2:29:16Speaker 05

  I, that's just in my, you know, toolbox. Usually I've got a, I've got a wing bone call. I got a slate call. Then I got a giant box call. So I got those three and then sometimes I'll throw in, you know, that other sound, which isn't as good as those other things.

• 2:29:28Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:29Speaker 05

  But next time I'll have to tell you the time I was attacked by a coyote while I was turkey hunting.

• 2:29:33Steven Rinella?

  Here, just rip it right now.

• 2:29:34Speaker 05

  Okay. That's what I'm, I, I grew up in a town of 500 people. So most people know me. There's the guy that got attacked by the coyote, not an author.

• 2:29:43Steven Rinella?

  Not an author.

• 2:29:43Speaker 05

  Yeah. So I'm, I'm sat up with my back to a tree, all right? And I've got my, and I hear these couple of gobblers really far away. So I got this box call and I'm holding it up here. I'm trying to, you know, get this sound to them. And all of a sudden I see like this patch of fur to my, just kind of appears here. And then I hear this, this pain on my arm. And then I see bounding away this coyote just, so it actually, it saw that movement.

• 2:30:09Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:09Speaker 05

  And I had a, I had a gobbler decoy out there too. So I guess he thought there were a bunch of turkeys. So he bites down on here, then he bounds away. I didn't really think much of it because the pain went away quickly. And so a few minutes later, the gobbler comes in and I shoot my gobbler. Yeah. So, and then I get home, I get where I was staying with my, with my, in my parents' house. And I take off my, my wool shirt and there's blood. And I said, oh, well, you know, I didn't know it was that, that bad or whatever. And my mom says, you better call your doctor or whatever. So I called the doctor and he says, you got to get a rabies shot. And I said, well, the coyote looked pretty healthy. It didn't look like, you know, I didn't want to get a rabies shot, you know? He says, Mark, there's no cure. You know, either you get a, I mean, who knows? So, okay. I go to the, I go to the emergency room in Liberty, Missouri.

• 2:30:53Speaker 05

  And they start the rabies shot process, you know, go around the wound with all these different things. And I'm talking to the emergency room doctor and I'm, and he's, you know, he asked me, well, how'd this happen? And then what do you do for a living? I'm a historian, blah, blah, blah. And he goes, you surely lead an interesting life. You're an emergency room doctor. You've got to have better stories than I do. But anyway, that's my story. I got attacked by a coyote and I tell people, I said, you know, I'm a pretty good turkey caller. I fooled a coyote.

• 2:31:19Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, for sure, man. You got a wedding ring on?

• 2:31:22Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 2:31:23Steven Rinella?

  How long you been married?

• 2:31:23Speaker 05

  I've been married since, uh, since the early 1980s. I'm not sure what year, but anyway, yes.

• 2:31:31Steven Rinella?

  Good run.

• 2:31:32Speaker 05

  I know, I'm sorry. Hopefully my wife's not listening.

• 2:31:34Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, what's the secret to a big, long marriage like that?

• 2:31:36Speaker 05

  Um, you know, uh, we, my wife and I share a lot of interests. She's a museum curator. Uh, she very interested in the history and the past and we love visiting historic sites together. Um, I don't know that my children enjoyed that as much as my wife and I did, but we took them to just like my parents took me. But you know, it's really kind of a common, shared interest in the past and we find artifacts fascinating and, and the stories of real people in the past. And we even find our own family histories interesting. She's really big into her own genealogy and, and her family made a real mark in Ute Pass, Colorado. Been there, uh, for decades and decades.

• 2:32:15Steven Rinella?

  Okay, alright. Uh, Mark Lee Gardner is brand speaking to new book Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday and a Reckoning and Tombstone. Brothers of the Gun is what it's called. Got a lot of other books. Um, fantastic storyteller. Thanks for coming on, man.

• 2:32:30Speaker 05

  Hey, thank you for having me.

• 2:32:31Steven Rinella?

  Thank you. Appreciate it.

• 2:32:32Speaker 05

  Thanks.

• 2:33:00Steven Rinella?

  If you spend a lot of time outdoors, you got dogs, you got kids, you know how hard it is to keep the floor of your rig clean. A thing we do in our, in our little fleet of vehicles that have at my household, if you go look, open the door on any one of them, they all got weather tech. We get a car, we throw the mats out and put in weather tech. That way, when there's a mess. It's like your kid's fault, your dog's fault, it's the weather's fault, doesn't matter. You take them suckers out and hose them off and you're back to being good as new. I'm telling you, if you've got a vehicle, put WeatherTech in there, you're gonna be happy you did it. And check this out, American-made floor liners and cargo liners, okay? They laugh in the face of all weather. Go take a look for yourself today at weather tech.com. The new dual-threat Pro SD climber is the ultimate companion for both bow and rifle

• 2:33:45Steven Rinella?

  hunters, thanks to its adjustable dual-threat front bar. This innovative feature allows you to tailor the climber based on your preferred hunting method. So you can choose between two climbing modes and two hunting modes. So I like having something that's got this level of versatility. Get 20% off all tree stands by using the code MEATEATER at summitstands.com. That's a phenomenal deal. That's summitstands.com.

• 2:34:09Speaker 09

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know those little promises you make to your future self? Tomorrow, I'll put my phone away earlier, or stop rehearsing arguments in the shower. Tomorrow, I'll stop saying yes to everything, or stop overthinking that conversation. Most of us aren't trying to become completely different people. We're just hoping to feel a little better every day. That's what's great about BetterHelp. With them, better is personal. It's matching with a therapist who gets you and having someone in your corner. Better doesn't have to come from major victories. It can be from the small habits you create and how you honor your needs on a daily basis. So many of us are great at prioritizing even the smallest things for our loved ones. But what about ourselves?

• 2:34:54Speaker 09

  With thousands of therapists and millions of members in over 100 countries, BetterHelp is making therapy more accessible so more people can keep moving forward, one conversation at a time. Better is personal. Therapy should be too. Visit betterhelp.com to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com.

• 2:35:15Speaker 06

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.