Bear Grylls: Man VS Failure, Anxiety & Imposter Syndrome

Bear Grylls is a British adventurer and television host who has been an international sensation of survival shows for twenty years. The host of Man vs. Wild, You vs. Wild, Running Wild, The Island, and the author of Mud, Sweat and Tears and over twenty other books, he’s come in to talk to us about his new book - Never Give Up. Bear has always told himself a story about himself that he’s ‘resilient’, he’s pushed through the toughest challenges the world has to offer - from climbing Everest to surviving in the desert - because he’s told himself he’s the type of person who survives. But now, he reflects to us about the costs of that mentality, and where it leaves you when you come up short. Bear’s new book is a follow-up to his smash-hit bestseller Mud, Sweat and Tears. He’s spent five years writing it, written every single word himself, and shares some lessons from his life he’s never felt comfortable sharing before. It was a pleasure to read, and a pleasure to speak to him in my kitchen. Follow Bear: Twitter - https://twitter.com/BearGrylls Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/beargrylls Bear’s book - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Give-extraordinary-autobiography-phenomenon/dp/ Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Just because you're determined doesn't mean everything's gonna go well.

• 0:03Steven Bartlett?

  Those four people that passed away, were they climbing with you?

• 0:08Speaker 00

  I'm Bear Grylls and I've learnt how to survive on some of the most hostile terrains on the planet.

• 0:13Steven Bartlett?

  You really fascinate me for a number of reasons that I actually never knew before I started digging into your story. You certainly had a lot of demons.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  In the early days of TV especially, there was so much pressure to go and do that and do the extra episode. You end up burning the things that are most valuable. To be successful, you have to sacrifice. But maybe you reached for one way and that's enough.

• 0:36Speaker 00

  Selection for the special forces is all about heart and spirit. And we can all have that. That's not a God given talent. That's a muscle that builds with walking through the door of failure time and time again and keep getting back up.

• 0:49Steven Bartlett?

  When was your darkest moment?

• 0:51Speaker 00

  One was when I broke my back and was in rehabilitation for a long time. And you know, so much of my rock in my life had been that I was physically strong and I was doing a job I loved. And suddenly I couldn't even reach a bathroom with that excruciating agony. And it was just a, what am I gonna do with my life?

• 1:07Steven Bartlett?

  When is there a time to give up?

• 1:11Steven Bartlett?

  So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:27Steven Bartlett?

  Ben, I wanna start where I usually start, which is near the start. And one of the things you said was, you certainly had a lot of demons. The quote, the exact quote is, "I was never short of demons." When I read that, I thought, what do you, what do you mean?

• 1:44Speaker 00

  Growing up, I really struggled with confidence. You know, definitely when I was at school and I think, you know, I think so much of the school culture still to this day. You know, it definitely tends to celebrate the, you know, the guy who's academic or sporty or good looking or just a cool guy, you know? And that, those are the currency of school. But as you and me know, it's not always the currency of life. And but you try and tell a kid who who maybe isn't sporty or academic, who's just kind and does his best, you know, that actually those things have much more value in life. And it's kind of hard to believe. But certainly for me, I didn't, I didn't have, I wasn't the sporty or the most academic or the cool guy.

• 2:28Speaker 00

  And I think it took me a while to find an identity. And actually, this is what, you know, this is what I love. And it's nothing kind of brilliant, but but I love it. And for me, growing up, it was always climbing with my dad. You know, he'd been a, he'd been a commando and and loved all of that sort of stuff. And for me, growing up, it was always, you know, that's what I love to do, just just have mini adventures with him. And I think it took a while to learn that that's okay. You know, my dad was always saying, you've got to find something you really love and try and be kind to people along the way and be resilient, you know, have that dog and never give up attitude. And that that's, that's the key things for life. And but it's hard to believe that as a kid.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  And sometimes if you get a bit lost in the system. So I suppose what I meant is it took me a while to find the confidence, you know. And it's still a journey, I think, we're all on, you know. I think success doesn't always answer those sort of questions. And I think confidence has to come from in here. And it's often the opposite of what we think it is when we're growing up, you know, confidence is quiet. And I think that's where that's kind of what I meant.

• 3:39Steven Bartlett?

  When you say confidence, what, how do you define confidence? Because some people think of confidence as this like overt, external expression of like self-assurance. What what did you mean when you said I didn't have confidence and it's still an ongoing battle? What is that?

• 3:53Speaker 00

  I think it's not what the world always thinks. Like you say, you know, we always have this thing of confidence. As you say, it's this unstoppable, I can do anything, you know. I think life is always humbling, you know, in every way, just like the wild, you know, the mountains are humbling, you know, the the real things in life are humbling. It reminds us that, you know, it's often a battle. And, you know, you've got to sometimes put your head down and do your best and you're going to fail and you're going to struggle and you're going to have doubts and you're going to have self doubt and but but try, try and get your feet and keep going.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  And I think that is, um, that is confidence, you know, confidence is the quiet stuff and the honesty and to, to say this is a struggle, but, but let's go, you know, let's, let's, let's do our best. I love that thing of the scouts, you know, do your best, you know, which is so smart because I think so much of the world is about be the best, you know, win number one, you know, but actually that doesn't always stand the, the pressure test of time and of, of life and of going for big things are always going to be humbling. And I think the thing of do your best, you know, it's dip, dip, dip, you know, D Y B, do your best. I, I love that because wherever you're at, you, you can do that, you know, it's a decision, isn't it?

• 5:10Speaker 00

  It's not a gift. It's not something we're born with, like the looks or the academic or the sport, something you've got to summon. And I like that.

• 5:19Steven Bartlett?

  What were the symptoms of having a lack of confidence when you were that age? What, what would it look like? How did it manifest itself?

• 5:25Speaker 00

  I think probably just being quite shy and, uh, and I think you see the, the people at school always the, the, the bigger personalities. And it was always like, gosh, you've got to be like that to get anywhere. And it's a life journey, isn't it? To realise it's almost the opposite. It's almost the opposite. You know, the, the quiet, the persevering relentlessly, trying to pick yourself up through the failures and, and keep going and, and know the wealth of life. The wealth is always found in our relationships and, and, you know, you, you come across people who are rich in friendships and, you know, rich in passion and love what they do and love the people they work with. And, you know, and that's enough. That's wonderful.

• 6:10Speaker 00

  But it takes a bit of unlearning, doesn't it, to saying, you know, don't have the people not always to look up to, aren't always the front and centre. And as I get older, I see more and more heroes, left, right and centre. Well, more left and right rather than centre, you know, and I love that. I, I sort of. See it in people and you know, I see it in our camera crew. I mean, look at, look at what's been a core part of my job for however many years, many years now, you know, the filming and stuff and you know, the focus is always on the person in front of the screen and, and you know, that horrible word of talent, as they call it. I never felt very talented, still don't, still feel I'm surrounded by way more talented people, but it's, life isn't a competition about

• 6:54Speaker 00

  who's more talented. It's a, it's a journey to take with great friends. And I look at our camera crew and to me, true heroes, you know, they work harder, they, they carry heavier weights, you know, unsung, you know, relentlessly positive, carry me many times, you know, in so many ways, encourage me when, when I've been struggling and I look at them and, and still brothers and sisters, best friends to this day. Uh, I think it's probably the thing I'm most proud of in my career, actually, are the friendships with our crew, you know, in an industry that is notoriously transient, you know, people have crew come, crew go, new crews, you know, but we've kept

• 7:34Speaker 00

  pretty well the core crew from, from the beginning. And, uh, part of it's that we're obviously working in difficult, dangerous terrain and you forge stronger bonds than you would in a shiny studio. But part of it's that the loyalty really matters from both, goes both ways. Uh, and I love that.

• 7:54Steven Bartlett?

  You said that you kind of have a bit of an allergic reaction to the word talent, right? Just from a few other things that you said in that little opener, I wondered if you, you relate at all to the, to the phrase imposter syndrome at all? Cause you're someone who's, the world has this image of you as being this like unbelievable, mountain scaling, fearless adventurer. And even you talking about a lack of confidence doesn't seem to fit into that narrative that the world must hold of you. So have you ever felt what they call imposter syndrome at all? Would you have a different?

• 8:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so, because I'm going, because it probably grows, you know, the more, you know, the more sort of something does well, you know, we, you know, we, we did the show this year for Netflix called You Versus Wild, you know, and we just got the news, you know, this morning, we got nominated for three Emmys for it. And the crew get, they must be so excited, but part of my heart dies, part of me is like, oh, it's like that gulf between the, the sort of TV sort of, you know, guy and, and the, it gets bigger, you know, and I feel from day one, I felt, I almost had more confidence, I think, in my skills at the beginning. I think as the years have gone on, I've realised,

• 9:06Speaker 00

  actually, I've often been surrounded by people who are better, better climbers, better skydivers, better survival guys, better looking, fitter, stronger, all of these things, just because we've built a, a, a crew of ninjas, of true heroes and, you know, we got to work with people and locals and experts all around the world, year after year. And I think more and more, I feel these guys are, that person we met there, or that person we met there are amazing, they'd be much better at the job than me. But, you know, like I say, our, our job isn't to be the best, you know, it's to do our best and, and, you know, for some reason, I've been given this, this, the chance to do this, it's what I've always loved, I love the adventures, I love, like I say, the friendships and, you know, the job we do and I think you can only ride, that'd be grateful for it and,

• 9:51Speaker 00

  and like I say, do, do your best and, and not worry about too much about how the TV makes it always look. I mean, the truth is, the TV always puts the best bits, they cut out the trips and the stumbles and, and you put anything to music and the guy's gonna look cool, you know, but I think an element to why the show worked when we first started doing it is that we did show a lot of the mistakes and it was kind of the slips and the stumbles and the ums and the ahs and I remember from day one, the, the producer that came, came to me and said, well, we want to do this show where we drop you in the middle of difficult places and you show us how to get out of there and, and I kept saying no, because I didn't want to do TV, I didn't know about TV and I was like, and. You know, but you kept saying, we don't want that. It doesn't need to be perfect.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  And it was my wife that said, why don't you go and try it, you know, and I just left the military. We just got married. We were kind of starting out and she was smart. She said, go and try it. And actually, it's never felt like making a perfect thing. I think the magic at that time, it was the first show that came along that let all the mud be on the lens and the rain on the lens and the trips and the stumbles. You saw the cameraman's hand and it would come, there was a sort of interactivity. There was, there was great. And I always felt if it's not broke, don't fix it. The stumbles, the trips, the struggles, the mistakes are part of life.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  But the part of my heart that dies is because it goes, it all makes it look too good or too, you know, because at the end of the day, I'm a really regular guy. I'm a regular dad as well, you know, I'm not, I'm not brilliant at any of these things, but I, I know what I love and I know the weapons that serve me best and the weapons are always this, you know, be dogged, be determined, be, be the most resilient person out there when it's hard, you know, come alive in the big moments. When it's not the big moments, you don't need to be front and center, but in the big moments, be there.

• 11:42Steven Bartlett?

  I watched a lot of interviews of you before you, you arrived here today and I think in pretty much all of them, you said, I'm a normal guy. I'm a regular guy. And I get that. I get that. I understand what you're saying. However.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  Well, it's not false modesty. I don't want, I'm not gonna let people builds, builds me into something I'm not, you know, and I think as I get older, I know the frailties more and more and I'm not ashamed of them. Do you know what I mean? It's, it's okay. Many mistakes, many, many struggles. It's okay. Otherwise, things become all too,

• 12:16Speaker 00

  you know, that how, it's, it's hard to relate to, you know?

• 12:20Steven Bartlett?

  But you, you got through SAS selection.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  Just. I got through all these hits just, you know.

• 12:26Steven Bartlett?

  And people turned, turned to you and said things and as they turned back and quit, right? That, that for me is a filtering process of something. Whatever that something is.

• 12:35Speaker 00

  It's resilient. All it is, is something we can control. It's not a filtering of talent. It's not filtering of you're, you're, you're brilliant. You're through, you're not through, you know? It's, it's a genius of selection for the special forces. It's all about heart and spirit. And we can all have that. That's not a God given talent. That's a, that's a muscle that builds with. Walking through the the door of failure time and time again and keep getting back up. You know, so I like that. It's why I say I am an ordinary person. It's why I also say just to so many things because, you know, yes, I pass out. Or yes, you reached the top of this mountain. Or yes, you do. But it's always just and that's okay, you know. And it's also often by standing on the shoulders of many giants who have helped me, you know, many, many times.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  You know, if I think of S S selection, you know, that time there were so many times where somebody, somebody just kind of believed me in a critical time, you know, it might be something where two corporals running something go, do we want that guy? Do we want, you know, a bit of luck falls on his side, somebody backs you, you know, or, you know, you, you, I don't know, just the more I look back on so many so-called achievements, the more I see the hand of good people in critical moments. But as you know, you have to win the hearts of those people in the first place. But also the role of just that dogged determination to keep going. And that's not a thing of being brilliant. It's just trying to keep going, often sliding another step back, but keep moving forward.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  And you say that to, you know, I've got three boys now, three teenagers. And I think if you said to them, what one thing does your dad say to you day after day before you go to school? It's always just, you know, don't give up, don't never give up, be kind, you know, be determined, but never give up. And they roll their eyes, but you know what? One day they'll know that it's a key thing of key thing of life, you know, you don't have to be the best to do your best.

• 14:31Steven Bartlett?

  Did that resilience muscle, as you call it, grow over time?

• 14:35Speaker 00

  Of course, it's like, it's like everything. It's like the little, little seeds to the mighty oats, you know, we, how do we build it? Just inch by inch. And, uh, and that's a great thing because it's not something only some people can have. You know, it's universal for us all. We can all become, people think it's a God given gift to someone be resilient. Resilience is that muscle and you build it by failing and trying to stay positive and and trying to get back your feet and going again, you know, I look back and I remember being really excited about being picked for the fourth eleven football team as a linesman. I wasn't even in the team, you know, and it was like, my job was to bring on the oranges at half time, you know, but it was like, and I remember my dad was the only dad on the

• 15:19Speaker 00

  side of the pitch cheering me on. I thought it was so embarrassing. He's not, I'm not even in the team and dad said, you know, he's come to kind of. But actually those little steps of like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna bring on those oranges and you're never, you're never gonna forget it. It's gonna be great. And it's incremental, tiny little things, but having to fight for things, you know. So how often do we see at school though, the, the school hero actually in life doesn't always do that brilliantly? And why is that? It's because they've got, you know, schools rewarded that, but they've never tested this. You know, where little Johnny, who doesn't have that, doesn't get the awards.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Is a linesman, brings on the oranges. Yeah, whatever it is, struggles, doesn't even get noticed, never wins anything, but never gives up and keeps doing his best and still doesn't really get noticed, but doesn't matter. But when he leaves school, this might not be the biggest thing, but this is like ninja like, you know, that, that resilience muscle inside is strong. And as you know, and as I know, in life, that's the one that is gonna carry you further. And, and the unseen people at school often do better in life. It's like, don't peak too early. Don't peak at 14.

• 16:33Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, fuck, no. I certainly didn't. I sat here with, um, Eubank. I've been thinking about this idea of resilience and what it really means. And as we sit here today, my current hypothesis is basically resilience is the story. It's kind of this contract you have with yourself, this self story about who you are. And in those moments when no one is looking, I, I was talking to Eubank about me being on the running machine and knowing I've got two minutes to go because I said before I started, I'd run until 45 minutes, but my legs are hurting and they're cramping and I could give up and walk away and no one's gonna know because no one's here. But what I, I alter my own self story in a way and I, I send a message to myself that I am the type of person that gives up when it's tough. So is it really, do you, do you relate to that? And is this kind of

• 17:14Steven Bartlett?

  like, you're crafting this story about who you are to yourself with every small decision you make. Doing the linesman job, you said, I'm gonna do it the best I possibly can. And although it's not what I wanted, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it everything I can and not give up.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:30Steven Bartlett?

  Does that relate at all?

• 17:30Speaker 00

  And also I think the thing of giving up is that. You know, what is that thing of temporary pleasure, long term?

• 17:37Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  You know, and and for me, I just, I I developed a thing where

• 17:43Speaker 00

  whenever people were quitting or complaining, I liked those moments. For me, it was like, okay, there's all the all the chat and the bravado. There's always that at the beginning. It was full of that. But bring it down, put the squeeze on, you know, we're like grapes. Squeeze this, you see what's inside. Bring the squeeze, bring the squeeze. Now we see character, see what people are like. And for me, it just became whenever I saw people quitting or complaining, especially complaining, and you see it so much as i- i- in the military, you see it on big expeditions, you see it even when we're filming TV shows, you know, when it gets hard, you know, and you're hungry and you're scared and you're up against it, you're dehydrated. You know, those are the moments. And for me, it just became a trigger. When everyone's complaining and giving up, it's a time to give more, you know, just, you don't have to give more in the early times, just wait until it's

• 18:29Speaker 00

  and that's how you separate yourselves in in business and in life and in relationships, you know, in the big moments, you know, look at a relationship when it's when you're under that real thing, everyone's throwing it, you know, are you gonna really throw that nasty comment or gonna hold it and just try and be gracious and kind in those big moments, you know? And and I like that. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't complicated to think about under pressure. It was just like when everything's going wrong, that's the time to give more rather than give up. And I held on to that in many difficult moments, you know, across many different arenas. And and it's helped me, you know, I remember this guy said to me once, said, and you can do anything for another 10 seconds. I like that, you know, when it's you're in that moment, you keep going another 10 seconds.

• 19:15Steven Bartlett?

  That makes you different, though.

• 19:18Steven Bartlett?

  You've got to admit, because most people don't want another 10 seconds.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, it hurt. It it hurts. I'm not saying it's not gonna hurt, it's gonna hurt, but that fire inside, it's in us, in us all, you know, it's just you've got to dig sometimes. But it's it's a great truth to know that it's there when you dig, you know, it is there. And and I think, as you say, once you get used to this, you start to practise it, the muscle gets stronger. And then you almost seek out tough times. You know, this is a chance to to shine, you know, and as you say, that's how you separate yourselves in life, you know, you're gonna reach these points, but but in those big moments, what are you, what are you gonna go this way? How are you gonna act in those big moments? And it's always what separates, you know, reaching those summits from not reaching those summits.

• 20:01Steven Bartlett?

  Never give up. It's the name of your latest book. When is there a time to give up? Because there is a wildly believed, I think, social phrase, which is like quitting is for losers. Right. But some, I want to look at my own life and my own career. Quitting has played quite an important role sometimes in leaving a situation that wasn't good. So when should we give up?

• 20:22Speaker 00

  Well, that's called wisdom and it comes with experience. And there's always, there's always a right. First of all, my 16 year old nephew came to me the other day. I said, I said, babe, you need to not the smoking on the head. You're smoking a lot at the moment. He went, but ever since I have a kid, you told me never give up. I set apart for the cigarettes, you know? There's always a time to give things. And some, and experience and wisdom, you know, you, you just don't want to be a pig headed head in the dirt. It's a, you know, that's not smart. That's not smart, you know? Intuition and experience has to know when, hold on, this is, this isn't maybe the right route. Let's just take a step back.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  And I think it's why so often great mountaineers are often a little bit older because they have that patience and that judgment. And when you're young and you don't care and you kind of maybe should be listening to that intuition. And maybe the weather's changed or something's happening that's saying, hold, you know? And you go and you die. It's why, why so many higher tiered mountaineers deaths is that, you know? Relentless ability not to adapt or change your plan. Where with age, you have that ability to listen to your instinct, to the mountains, to the circumstances and maybe adapt and maybe change. And as, as we know, you know, with big mountains, they'll always be there. So I think that ability to life, to listen to that and to amend and to adapt is super important.

• 21:45Speaker 00

  And look at soldiering, same, there's always this thinking man soldier, you know, was the, was the mantra of a lot of these special forces stuff. It's always being able to adapt, improvise, adapt, overcome, you know? That, that's, that's leading with this and with this. So course there's a time for pulling back and holding. But I think generally the message, you know, 90% of the time, most people don't get to where they're going, not. Not because of a lack of skills or talent, it's that lack of kind of ability to keep going when it's hard. And that's why I think doing little things every day, small things that, you know, whatever it is, that just push your, push this muscle a bit is good, you know, even if it's like, I mean, I have, I've had a thing for years and it's now super popular.

• 22:28Speaker 00

  Everyone's kind of, you know, doing it, you know, the ice bath training.

• 22:31Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:32Speaker 00

  You know, but I've done it for years and I love this thing. It's just three minutes a day. I'm just in that cold water, you know, whether it's a river or in winter or lake or, you know, at nighttime and, you know, I try and find somewhere every day, just getting that cold and it hurts, still hurts. But it's just a little, little something, whatever it is, that's your something that's difficult to do. Because most people spend their lives avoiding the painful, the difficult, you know, that they're scared of public speaking or they're scared of it. So they avoid the things that challenge us. But as you know, it's where growth happens and growth isn't always fun. It's often painful, but it's like a muscle, the more you push it, the more you get used to it. You know, there's a great thing at the Commando Training Centre in Limpson that just says, comfortable with uncertainty.

• 23:15Speaker 00

  And it's a great thing for life, you know, don't get sat in that comfort zone too much. You know, I call it a comfort pit, somewhere to get out of quickly.

• 23:25Steven Bartlett?

  I was wondering if, like, training in the gym, when I do my repetitions of the weights, I then need a bigger weight to get the same gain. So do you find yourself needing like a bigger thrill or a bigger expedition or a greater challenge to get the same like, feeling of fulfillment and contempt from what your work these days? And why do you find that after you've climbed Everest and done all you've done?

• 23:47Speaker 00

  I, I don't feel that, no.

• 23:49Steven Bartlett?

  You don't feel that?

• 23:49Speaker 00

  I don't feel that. I think what you're saying in the question is that you actually, is that where you get your fulfillment through that thing? And the answer is no, it's not where I get fulfillment, fulfillment. I, I do these things. I try and do the difficult things just to keep that inside muscle honed a little bit. But it's not always about bigger and better and, you know, it's, as I read the other day, half of life is getting to where you, you know, achieving your goals and the other half of life is being really happy to enjoy it.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  Second one's a harder one to do.

• 24:22Speaker 00

  And I think a big, you know, I'd be super lucky to fulfill so many things. I still have many goals, many ambitions, but it's not goals and ambitions that trump the last one and ever bigger and uh, you know, it's not like that. It's just really grateful and try, make sure you stay alive, you know, make sure you're always grateful for the many good things and the luck you've had along the way, you know, keep that muscle inside honed. Keep, keep working, keep doing your best, but it's definitely not where I find the fulfillment. It's not, it's not like the, the achievement's never going to fulfill that whole.

• 24:53Steven Bartlett?

  Did you used to think it would?

• 24:55Speaker 00

  Maybe a little bit. I think when I was young, I, you know, I think Everest certainly for me was such a symbol of like, I'm gonna do this, you know, that it was at a time when only I think 20 odd Brits had ever climbed it and it was like, I thought this is gonna be epic, you know, and, and then you see the realities of, you know, we have four climbers lose their lives up there and it re-rattled me in many ways. And I was lucky to reach the top and got back in one piece, but it didn't answer that question of, you know, I, I don't know. I don't think I'd climb it now. I'm not so out on a quest to kind of prove anything, but I think when you're young, it's, half of it's good to have a quest, you know, you've got to have that goal. But the other half is like, it's not, it's not the answer to life, is it? You know, it's, it's a,

• 25:39Speaker 00

  you know, that maybe comes from elsewhere and with time and experience you learn the real answer. Life is always rooted in, you know, something aside and that, and relationships with great people and, you know, a lot of it I think comes down to love, actually. You know, being, uh, knowing those connections with great people and a love of whatever it could be, can be a love of the outdoors, a love of what you do, you know. But, um, it's not found in achievement always.

• 26:03Steven Bartlett?

  Have you found where it is found? You don't seem to be so certain exactly where that, that feeling of fulfillment, um.

• 26:13Steven Bartlett?

  You talked about the second half, which is like enjoying the goals. Have you figured that bit out?

• 26:18Speaker 00

  I think it's a lifelong journey of figuring it out. You know, I I hope I edge closer to where it's not found, which is is never found in trophies and triumphs and accolades. You know, those things, I see those things with clearer lenses now. You know, I'm more proud of to be married, you know, twenty two years, you know, I got three great boys. You know, the simpler things I'm more proud of. I think, you know, where do I really find fulfillment? I think um I think my faith is a quiet thing in that sense. You know, faith's always a tricky one, but and hard to articulate very well. But it's definitely comes from a place of like that you're you're okay, you're okay.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  We're we're forgiven, we're loved, empowered and um try and live it live life as best you can. Eyes wide open with, you know, gratitude in your heart and a tough, resilient spirit to go for things. And and I look at life in those sort of terms more and more.

• 27:21Steven Bartlett?

  I feel like in the in the twenty twenty two in the UK, where I think we've grown more atheist as a society. I mean, some people say there's no such thing as an atheist, but we've grown more atheist in our viewpoints. It is harder to communicate if you do have a faith. Why did you say that it's a it's a tricky thing?

• 27:41Speaker 00

  I think it's been so tarnished. I think religion has been so tarnished and I I get that. I was always the least religious person growing up. I just thought, I mean, as a kid, I had a really natural faith. I always believed in some higher power and that I could feel, you know, there's something around, you know, as a little kid. It was like, ah, wow. And then I think I went to school and then, you know, you had to go to church and they all wore white cassocks and spoke in Latin. I thought, gosh, I really missed it. You know, this is actually what it's about. And it's been a life journey to unwind all of that and realize actually the little me had it right. You know, faith is faith is in your heart, knowing knowing that you're not alone and and there's something bigger than us out there.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  And they're for us, not, you know, that that power is for us, not against us. And despite my doubts and all of those sort of things, I'm gonna put my trust in that and try and, you know. Have love at the centre of all we do and live empowered and go for things and not be scared to fail and not be driven by fear and all those sort of things. And that to me what faith is.

• 28:49Speaker 00

  So it's hard to articulate, I think, because it's personal and it's intimate and also it's, like I say, it's has just as many doubts as it does. You know, doubt and faith, two sides of the same coin, you know, I think it does feel like that for me, but through it all, I would say my Christian faith has been a real backbone and a kind of secret strength in many tricky moments, you know, light to a dark path, I always kind of feel it's that sort of thing. So, yeah.

• 29:18Steven Bartlett?

  I did wonder when I was reading about your faith and I watched you pray for Obama, just at the end of your time with him. Because I've sat here with guests who have undergone and witnessed such horrific things in their in their lives and they've, and it's shaken their faith. In fact, Eubank was one of them, that his brother suddenly died. They were both very religious. And that shook his faith and being out in nature and being on those expeditions up Everest where two people fall to their death and two, you know, die of the cold. One would, it might assume that those moments would shake your, your faith, but it sounds like it's made it stronger in a way from what you're saying.

• 29:50Speaker 00

  Well, I think the two things happen often. It gets shaken and strengthened. And actually, my experience, the people, people have really been taken to the edge. That's actually where they find their faith. You know, you look at so many of the concentration camp stories and stuff, you know. It's, you know, two sides looking at it. One person said, there can be no God. I've seen, I've witnessed evil personified and

• 30:19Speaker 00

  the, it was if, I can't remember when, said, I've been to the edge and I know there's no place that God isn't. You know, it's all how we look at how we choose to live. And I choose to, choose to try and live with, you know, faith, faith in other people, faith in ourselves, faith in the Almighty. And that, and that helped me, but it's, it's funny, that thing with Obama, because in a way that was never meant to be on TV. It was just a spontaneous thing at the end of the journey and I'd, you know, as you know, when you spend time with people.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  You get a sense of someone and I think at the end of that journey with Obama, I got a real sense that he's a guy with the weight of the world on his shoulders, you know, and he got lighter as the journey went on. And by the end, he said, you know what, it's one of the best days of my presidency. I'm out of the office, I'm out of a suit, talking about stuff that's in here rather than being grilled on, you know, politics. And I could see him lighten, getting lighter, you know, and I just said at the end, I said, first of all, good job you're doing. You probably, I don't know if you get told it very often, most people give you a hug, but you know, doing your best, dib dib dib, you know. And I wanted to say, you know, I don't know, it felt like let's try and refill his fuel tank a bit. Yeah, yeah. And actually, it ended up going in the show, you know, I put a hand on his shoulder

• 31:35Speaker 00

  and said, you know, strength this guy, you know, in the big decisions. Oh, man, you know, and it wasn't really more complicated than that. But I don't know, I think the wild always creates honest connections without the fluff. And it didn't feel unnatural. And, you know, but it's funny how the effect of that, I still get people to this day, talk about that a lot. And they're quite unlikely, people often say, that was a, that was a good, good moment. Not always easy. I mean, awkward sometimes, isn't it, doing that sort of thing? Hmm, of course. But that's okay. I've learned that that's okay. Dude, sometimes the awkward things are, are the best things. Telling someone that, you know, you know, that they're amazing.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  You know, it can be awkward to a good friend, but can, can mean a lot.

• 32:24Steven Bartlett?

  Quick one. We bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the UK and when we're in LA. If you want to be one of those people, all you've got to do is hit subscribe. You said earlier about being rattled after Everest. One would never assume that, of course. You climbed the biggest mountain in the world and you come down and you're rattled and your confidence is knocked.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  I think big mountains are humbling, you know, and sometimes you, you take on these big projects and it's about, come on, we're gonna do it. And you're, you're full of that confidence. But, um, but it's often quite surface. And I think when you see things close up and.

• 33:06Speaker 00

  I think I came away with a real awareness of that I've been really lucky and got away with my life where others hand up there. And this stage Everest was killing one in six people's lives, you know, and beforehand I read about that and it was almost kind of, it was almost glamorous. It was almost like romantic, you know, but you see the, see the reality of it close up and it's, it's not romantic, it's, it's dark and, and, and difficult and confusing. And, and I think my feeling at the end of it was that I got really lucky, you know, I'd been no doubt dug deep in a few big moments and, you know, some 92 days on that mountains, there's a lot of time you do have to dig deep, but ultimately had a bit of luck at key times. And I think I came away

• 33:49Speaker 00

  aware of that and, and grateful for that, but less certain that just because you're determined in life, doesn't mean everything's going to go well, you know, and I think beforehand I kind of thought, if you give everything, it's all going to work out. But as you know, in, in everything in life, there's no guarantees, you know, we're, we, we live a gloves off life, you know, life is gloves off and no rules of kind of like, if you, if you give this, it's all going to be, you know, roses and sunshine, you, you know, you can give the best in the world, it's going to be, hit you sometimes, you know, you get ill or something happens. And I think that's the part of me that got a bit shaken and, but you know, that's just life and you have to live with your eyes wide open to that and, and still choose to try and make the good decisions and pick the good attitudes

• 34:34Speaker 00

  and put them on like a T-shirt every day that even though gloves are off, we're going to go for this, we're going to do our best to be positive, do our best to give our best and keep going for it. Those four people that passed away, were they climbing with you? Two Russians and a, a Brit and a New Zealander from other teams, but they're, they're on the mountain at the same time and, and never came back. And I remember with their teammates, you know, afterwards, just them, them in tears and sitting with them and it definitely made me question a lot at the time, is, is any mountain really worth a life? Of which a clear answer is no. But at the time, you're, sometimes your ambition is, you know, it's like, we're going

• 35:15Speaker 00

  to go for it. And, and that's why I think now, kind of with a bit of time and experience, would I, would I do it now? Would I take a one in six chance of not coming home now? No, because you have more to live for. But I think at the time I was like, I'm all in, I'm going to go, I want to make my mark, you know, at a, at a young age. And and the truth is I got lucky.

• 35:37Steven Bartlett?

  Fame.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, what does that one mean?

• 35:42Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, you tell me. I've been only on the TV for a couple of minutes. I mean, so but you've been on there for many, many, many, many years. So I was hoping maybe you could give me a little bit of an overview of what fame is. Because, you know, when I looked at Bear Grylls podcast, and I really couldn't find much. There was for someone that's been in the public eye for so long, could barely find anything. And then I read this quote that you you don't like. Sometimes you feel like when you meet someone, there's a sense of you're worried you might disappoint them because they're expecting you to be something else.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  Well, I think that's true. I think part of my kind of

• 36:21Speaker 00

  the the answer is I don't do very many of these, you know, I think, but that's okay. I'm not so hungry for more people to know everything, you know, I do do these sort of things every now and again with with good people and and when it feels right, you know, I think I think one of the reasons I get I get less comfortable sometimes in big groups of people and and doing press stuff or doings, you know, I I'm not very I don't really like the cameras on me, if I'm honest, I struggle really with that. So one, you know, I never gone to TV for that, you know, I got into TV because, you know, this producer said, do you want to try this thing? And like I said, we were just married and starting out and pretty broke. And it was like, let's go for it. Let's see what see what happens. But

• 37:05Speaker 00

  the sort of the recognition side of things, you know, I struggle with the word fame. I think it's a weird one. But I think the recognition side of things I I struggle with more. And I think part of it is a little part of me feels I'm never going to be quite as good as people expect, you know, in in as the TV sometimes makes out and therefore less is more, very happy with my family and friends. And I go and work, but I want to kind of come home afterwards. But when it comes to fame, you know, you you say that you you say about that I've I kind of learnt, I think, over the years to first will take it with a

• 37:43Speaker 00

  Not just a pinch of salt, but with a bucket of salt, you know, don't believe it. It doesn't, it's not where your worth is. You're, you know, if your worth is that, you're always going to struggle because it goes up and down. It's ultimately it's going down, isn't it? You know, you're, you're, you know, when we're, when we're 95 years old, nobody's going to know who, who I am.

• 38:01Steven Bartlett?

  Speak for yourself.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  I'm joking. Well, but it, but, and it, and it doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't, but I, I sense a self-worth. You're always going to be fighting a losing battle, really.

• 38:10Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  So I take it all with a bucket of salt. Um, I think for my family, growing up with a little bit of that, that they've, I always say to our boys growing up, we got friends all over the world and look at it like that. Amazing connections, you know, I can go to, go to any country and, and there's a connection with, with, with people there and people want to tell their stories and go, oh, I've just been camping with my, you know, with my son or my, you know, my uncle was this or did that, or my son's a scout, daughter's a scout or whatever it is. And I like those connections, always grateful for people's stories and, and that's fine. So that's how I kind of look at it. Pinch of salt, don't believe it all, but uh, always be grateful for friends all over the world.

• 38:51Steven Bartlett?

  Did you struggle with it at the start?

• 38:53Speaker 00

  I think I struggled with it when I felt the attention was on me. I think I didn't like that, that, that felt, I, I remember so well in the early days when we started doing Man vs Wild. First two, two seasons, we were just gunning and going and it was all just kind of fun. Out there, a small crew, I never really didn't see it go down till it was going out in America at the time. So I was over in the UK, I didn't see it, I didn't know what was happening. It was just lucky, it was good timing and it just worked, you know, it just was meant to be at that time. But I didn't really see much of that because I come home and live a regular life. And I, I remember the head of Discovery after a couple of seasons say, you know, your show's best on Discovery. It's getting over a billion viewers now around the world.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  And uh, and my heart sank, I really started to struggle with it. And I suddenly started to think when we were filming, I'd be like self-conscious and what, what am I saying and all this. And the fun went out of it and my, I got more anxious with it all. And I thought, I don't want people looking at this or doing this or, and it was a really sort of marked time of, and the crew said it, so they said, yeah, is everything okay? And I think I had to learn to.

• 40:04Speaker 00

  It's about other people, you know, and when I raised people coming up and they weren't going, you know, you're amazing. They would go, I took my son camping or my whatever did that. And when I raised it was about them and I'd really tried to shift it in my brain that everything's about them. You know, it's what it brings out, whether it's a single mum coming to me saying, when you once said about you in that storm of the jungle and you said sometimes life is, it's going to beat you up and you've just got to be dogged and keep going, keep your head down, you know, the storms won't last forever. And I really understood that as a single mom was trying to hold down all these jobs I've got, you know, that for me lifted my whole, I thought that's why I do this job. And it kind of shifted it off me and, and, and that's why I've always loved my job now is like chief scout.

• 40:46Speaker 00

  You know, for me, that was a revolution to be able to say, when people come up to me and go, you know, oh, you've done this or this now. Yeah, but look what you could do. You could join, you know, you could join that and you can do this. And, you know, somewhere to be able to, not deflect, but sort of direct people a little bit. And I, I get such a kick out of that. It's why I love running wild so much because it's about other people. It's about taking these rookies. It might be amazing rookies, but they're often wilderness rookies and opening their eyes to my office, you know, the outdoors, what the wire can do for people. That light inside, that pride, that come on, you know, that magic.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  And, uh, and saying, look at this. And that freed me a lot away from kind of look at, look at, you know, look that way and sort of this way.

• 41:34Steven Bartlett?

  You said a word there, which I, I started thinking about a lot, which was the word anxiety, which I actually think is quite an interesting thing because you're, much of your work is about the natural world. And one of the, I think unnatural human signals is anxiety. It kind of tells you something that you're potentially doing wrong. Maybe a train of thought that you've attached yourself to, which is destructive or whatever else. And depression is one of those things is what I talk about a lot is also seems to be a pretty clear signal for a natural signal that we have, you know, some of my guests have said that they've, it's a signal that they've been disconnected from their tribe. And it's, and they've explained the science of that. And, um, and even the signal of rejection and how that makes us feel is

• 42:14Steven Bartlett?

  a prehistoric signal telling us to get back into our tribe because, or that there's a chance we might be thrown off the island by our tribe because we're being rejected. So to change our behavior and all of these signals. Anxiety, depression and this whole mental health awareness that's emerged in the last 10 years, what's your relationship been like with those with those those topics?

• 42:38Speaker 00

  First of all, it's amazing that people are talking about this and focusing on it more. You know, I think, you know, it's it's long overdue and it's a key part of our arsenal for life, isn't it? Our weapons that are gonna help make your heart happy, you know, you you need to need to look after the physical, you need to look after the emotional, you need to look after the spiritual, and you need to look after the mental side of things, you know, it's all, these are all weapons in our arsenal, we've got to focus on, and if you neglect one, there's always gonna be a little part of your heart that is gonna struggle a bit, if you if you, whether it's emotional, physical or mental, so you've got to try and put things in place that help your mental health. And and I think people

• 43:20Speaker 00

  for many years often neglected that you shut things away, but actually, the so many of the things that help us mentally are simple things, as you say, those connections to people and that honesty and vulnerability and and like we've been talking about, not letting yourself sort of live a life that actually isn't real, not letting people make you into that hero that you don't always fear, you know, stay honest, stay connected, talk to people, you know, be outside. How how many times do we see studies proving that when we're outside and we're in the sun and we're expressing and we're working hard and we're connected to people? That's why the wild is such an amazing mental health weapon to build up that resource, you know, in a world that often depletes the resource, you know, all of this stuff is always pulling, you know, if I pulling, pulling, you know,

• 44:05Speaker 00

  it leaves you emptier. But for me, the wild and connection and the sun and outdoors and swimming cold rivers and and challenge and failing and all these sort of things build up, I find for me, help my mental health. You can't take your eye off the ball with mental health, you've got to. And you're not always going to get it right, and that's okay.

• 44:25Steven Bartlett?

  Is there a time in your life where you discovered mental health was a very real thing because of an experience that you'd had? Because I think for many years, I thought it was something that happened to other people. And then there's a couple of sort of catalytic events that happened in my life that made me realise that I am not immune to anxiety, to feelings, depressive symptoms and all of those things. But is there something in your life where there was a pivotal moment, or life events typically are the catalyst of those things, where you go, oh, this is something that I now need to put as a priority?

• 44:55Speaker 00

  I think I've been lucky in the sense that I've never suffered really bad depression, you know, where many, many friends I've stood alongside have really had battles. I think I've always had a, you know, an intuition of when I need to change something and when I'm struggling a little bit and when, hold on, this, this feeling of anxiety has been going on a bit, hold on, what can we change? What helps me? And I've always sort of accidentally found things that help make that problem better. And for me, it's been that go to being outdoors, being with great friends, having a few, just a few good friends rather than lots and lots of friends. You know, even things like our, our be military fit, our BMF, our veterans

• 45:36Speaker 00

  run fitness business has helped me so much because it's a collective tribe of, you know, often veterans, people who need that camaraderie but want to train, want to stay physically fit, don't want to be in a gym inside with white light and all of that. They want to be outside in the fresh air, they want to be down in the dirt a little bit, or they want to laugh at themselves in situations and face a few, you know, rain swept early mornings, training outside in a park together. And like our physical health, the more we can be aware of the things that do help and have proven to help and to gravitate towards those, seek those things in our life, be outside, be connected, train, you know, be honest, have a few friends, the more it's going to help us when we do have the dark moments. And I've

• 46:21Speaker 00

  never met anyone who doesn't have them. You know, they might tell you they don't, but everyone has these moments and I certainly, I certainly have. But I've also never met a strong person who's had an easy past. You know, it's just part of it. If you're going to go for big things and you're going to shoot for the top, you're going to have struggles and failures and part of life.

• 46:40Steven Bartlett?

  When was your darkest moment?

• 46:42Speaker 00

  One was when I broke my back in the military and was in rehabilitation for a long time and, you know, so much of my rock in my life had been that I was physically strong and I was doing a job I loved and suddenly I couldn't even reach the bathroom without excruciating agony and, you know, my back was broken in three places and, you know, that, you know, I had to then leave my job, you know, with the military and it was just a, what am I going to do with my life, you know. But I also look at that time and I think, if I hadn't have gone through that, I don't think I ever would have actually had the drive and the impetus to make that Everest expedition happen at that young age. And if I hadn't done that, that wouldn't have opened the door to other things and then eventually the TV and, you know, it's like, it's like these, these clouds that often,

• 47:27Speaker 00

  you know, it's why not to be scared when life does hit you sideways because there's often a sort of a plan there. You've just got to try and keep moving forward towards it. But that was definitely a dark time. And I think also losing my dad at a young age. I mean, Shar and my wife and me both lost our parents within 10 weeks of each other in year one of marriage. And it was, we were young, we were 24, 25 and just starting out in life. And I think we always had that safety net of our parents behind us, you know. And I think suddenly both losing our dads and now being responsible for our mums and it was, it definitely took that safety net away. And it was like, wow, we're both

• 48:06Speaker 00

  dealing with trauma here. Not always very well, but we, we got to, I mean, I look back now and actually it's what made us, made us really tight and to have a love and a trust and a vulnerability together that has been key thing in our relationship, I think, ever since. But at the time, it was just pure pain and a, and a huge hole that is still there to the day, you know. I mean, you know, seeing our three boys grow up, great, the great loss for me is that, you know, they will never know my dad or he would never know them and how like he was, they are. And all of these dynamics that we. Take for granted and so often I see friends now and they go, oh, my, you know, my mum's a bit poorly and my dad.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  I'm thinking, there's part of me, I think, you know, you're so lucky to have had your parents for that long. We, I was dealing with looking after sort of my mum and all her sort of bills and everything. And, you know, when I was twenty five, you know, it's been going on a long time. But, but at the same time, I think my dad taught me so many of the key things in life, which was back to that earlier point of like, you know, be resilient and be kind and keep going and those things I'll always be grateful for. And I wish, my only regret is that I didn't get a chance to say to him, wow, you were right, you were actually right all along when I kicked against it and kind of, you know, you were right. You know, follow your dreams, be kind, be resilient, never give up.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  And I never said thank you enough for that.

• 49:37Steven Bartlett?

  That's something I always worry about. My dad is, has outlived his siblings and um, I don't feel like I've made enough of an effort to stay connected. There's something about us where we just think our parents are going to be around forever. Like you, when you said the safety blanket thing, it's like this, it's almost like it reminds me of Covid where I didn't realise the tectonic plate of society could ever move. So I built my life like ignorantly on this foundation that society would be open and that. And then one day someone showed me that there was even a tectonic plate underneath me that I didn't know was there. And my parents are the same thing, they've just always been there, so I assume naively that they always will be, but.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 50:16Steven Bartlett?

  What would you say to, what advice would you give me about?

• 50:19Speaker 00

  Well, never take that for granted and never, never be scared of saying, I mean,

• 50:25Speaker 00

  tell him now, you know, tell him on this, he'll listen to this. He's probably incredibly, incredibly proud of you. All you've achieved superseded his wildest dreams of what a son could be. And he should be proud and tell him.

• 50:43Steven Bartlett?

  What would you tell your dad if he was listening?

• 50:45Speaker 00

  Well, I think I'd say thank you for the little things. You know, it's not that it's thanks for being there on that touchline when I was lines. You know, thanks for not putting too much focus just on success and school reports and being top. Thank you for putting focus on being kind and having a dream, even though it might not be the path most trodden. You know, but but go for it. If it's your dream, go for it. And thanks for saying that never give up is the golden currency of life, rather than, you know, good looks, sporty talent or academic brilliance.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  But, you know, I think for you, your dad, your dad knows, you know, I'm sure he knows, but never stop telling him. You know, because I think really parental relationships, one of those ones, it's always going to be, there're always going to be dynamics and struggles and fallouts and arguments and stuff. But you can never articulate it too much that you love someone. And you can never overestimate how much those simple awkward, difficult words to say mean. I mean, my great buddy said he really wanted to tell his dad one time he loved him, but he knew so English he wouldn't, his father, it would be a really difficult thing to say. And he eventually said, I'm gonna say it, and he said, Dad, I just wanted to let you know I really love you.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  And his son, his dad goes, you've been drinking. You know, but the thing is, that's okay. He would have go home that night knowing that he hadn't been drinking. The guy, his son hadn't been drinking, but that was special. And I think those awkward, it's back to that thing of doing sometimes the awkward, difficult things, like the prayer with Obama, is a really good thing, you know. And I've tried to get better at this in my life of saying thank you and doing nice things and saying awkward but good things to people. I mean, I said it to my great buddy the other day, Rupert, I said to him, you know, we work a lot together and stuff. So I said, you know, forget the work side of things. You're such a lovely friend.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  And I literally saw, boom, I saw eyes well out just for a second, you know. And it was like, you know, are you great, great, let's keep, keep, keep training or whatever we're doing. You know, but it's sometimes the awkward things are the good things. And I hope as I live and do more in life that I, I create more and more of those moments. Cause there are many people, I'm, like I said, I stand on the shoulders of many giants that are the real heroes in my life. And I definitely consider my dad one. I definitely consider those I served alongside in the military, many still friends to this day. I mean, I was with Corporal Williams, my old, you know, squadron, you know, patrol commander who's now aged, you know, seventy and lives in Merthyr Tydfil. I was with him the other day for a walk in the Breckins.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  Just remind him, I go, you've, you've been an amazing friend through life. And I'll never forget the belief you had in me in the early days. Thank you, you know. I consider the camera crew I work with in that same vein and never take those for granted.

• 53:55Steven Bartlett?

  Your wonderful wife.

• 53:58Steven Bartlett?

  I remember you saying once upon a time, if you really want to know someone, you've got to ask the wife and kids what they're like.

• 54:03Speaker 00

  You know, so true, isn't it? I mean.

• 54:05Steven Bartlett?

  What if I asked your wife, what would she say? What would she say about the?

• 54:09Speaker 00

  Flawed, she probably says flawed.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  Flawed, but you know.

• 54:14Steven Bartlett?

  In what way?

• 54:15Speaker 00

  I think loyalty and, and sticking through things and knowing the real us and, and that we're not perfect. And we, we're there for each other's is, creates a power to it. And I do look at relationships that are special, like, you know, with your kids or with your wife is like stained glass. You know, you need to, they're really beautiful, but you've got to protect them and you've got to protect them number one. And I think it's so easy in life to do the opposite. It's actually, we take that one for granted and we produce our best. We produce our best for the. At the dinner party to hold court and say the jokes and you know, and it's the wrong way round, you know, it's the wrong way round. Save your best. I think it's something I've learnt and still try and I don't always get right by any means, but I know the goal is

• 55:00Speaker 00

  try and save my best for those I value the most, which is the closest relationships to you with your wife and with your kids, you know, make the save the best for them rather than kind of be tired and grumpy with them and then go out and then be on form. You know, it's trying to shift it the other way and it's counter culture, but it's always going to make you happier, you know, and that's why I say if you want to know what someone's like, ask their wife, because don't, don't look at the press reports and don't read their own stories about themselves. You know, I was the person who really knows them when the, when the mask is off and when it's, you know, the cameras aren't rolling, they're the, they're the ones. And it's not to say, you know, anyone's perfect, but, but try

• 55:39Speaker 00

  and save your best for them. And I think if you do ask my wife what, what I would love her to say, I'd love her to say that I was loyal and kind and fought for them. You know, that's, that's what I just have always tried to do in my life and prioritize them. And many times in, in my life, in the early days of TV especially, there was so much pressure to, you know, be away too much and go and do that and do the extra episode and do the extra thing and the, you know, Discovery Channel are asking for one more thing then you end up burning, burning the things that are most valuable because you're away too much, you're, you're focusing on this and always creates damage. And I say sorry for

• 56:22Speaker 00

  those times it was way too much and, and, and that's why I fought so hard to start to produce and make our own shows where we owned the format and we could decide. I go, no, it's our boy's half term. I'm, I'm not going to, even though it's, you know, Tom Cruise or whoever, I'm, I'm going to be at the half term for this. I want to put the shift onto the family. And it's been a great thing. It's been a key thing. And the other stuff is work. It will always be there, you know, it will be there and it's okay.

• 56:49Steven Bartlett?

  Sometimes I fall into the trap of doing that. So, you know, you get an offer come in and it's oh, fifty grand or a hundred grand to do this thing here. It'll take one day, but I'd scheduled to be in Indonesia that day with my partner. And I'm looking, I'm going, can I really turn down a hundred grand? For one day, just like hanging out on the sofa with my partner. It's a new challenge that I've been contending with. What, I mean, you've been through this.

• 57:12Speaker 00

  Well, I think, I think the answer is at the same time, you're hustling and you've got to work and you've got to build it and you're building it. Especially when you get married and have kids, you're building for their future and, and all of us have this struggle. But I think listening to that inner voice, you know, a little bit, and there's this line, isn't there, that we walk where, you know, this side is family, this side is work. And the problem is if you only try and walk this line, everyone's always asking favors. You know, it's just one off, it's one event, it's one thing. And before you know it, you're spending too long on this side of the line. And you're creating damage and loss. It's only damage, it's losing, you're creating loss on this side. And I think what I've learned is just shift the line a little bit, you know, make the line here.

• 57:52Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, so make it even more family orientated to start with.

• 57:55Speaker 00

  So, so when you drift over the line a few times, which you're gonna do, you're still in surplus, you're still in surplus. And, and I think the wisdom and experience of life is knowing, do you know what? No, we should go and do that. I will go and do that eventually. That's important. But knowing also the ones that really protect. It's often the little things, isn't it? Like a, you know, like the linesman's story, you know, like that school play or that anniversary or whatever. And listen, I'm speaking from a place of flawed failure through many, many times, but I've learnt through those things.

• 58:28Steven Bartlett?

  Why do you say that?

• 58:29Speaker 00

  Because I've got it wrong many times.

• 58:30Steven Bartlett?

  You've just gone there.

• 58:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, just been there and made mistakes and got them wrong. But I've learnt through those. Is that it's worth protecting the most, the thing of most value in your life. And I think then with success, what happens, you'll reach a point where you don't need that extra hundred grand. You know, maybe when you're getting it, maybe you've got to hustle a bit. Maybe you've got to sacrifice as you do. To be successful, you have to sacrifice. Maybe, you know, and I was the same. I had to in those early days. You've got to, you've got to go that extra mile. I'm not saying you don't, you do. But maybe you reach a point where enough's enough. And then, then what you're really saying to your girlfriend, or it might be your wife or your kids at that stage, is that I value you more than a hundred grand. And when you're like successful, you know, it doesn't get any easier to say no.

• 59:14Speaker 00

  It becomes more important to say no.

• 59:18Steven Bartlett?

  Amen. I felt that. Speaking of work, really compelled by when I read that you're the chief scout. I was like, that's the CEO of the scouts, right? That's, is that not the CEO of the scouts effectively?

• 59:31Speaker 00

  Well, I don't think I've ever, I've never had an aspiration to be like a CEO. CEO has always felt very important, even though we are on the diary of a CEO. I never feel like a CEO.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  Greatest honour in my life has been to, you know, be a, be a small cog in this incredible worldwide machine of 55 million young people.

• 59:52Steven Bartlett?

  Whoa.

• 59:52Speaker 00

  Bound together by a common set of values of respect and kindness and humility and, and adventure and determination and life skills. And, you know, it's an amazing privilege. I never take it for granted. It's a worldwide force for good. It truly is. The scouting movement is unlike anything else out there. And it really has been the greatest honour of my life. And, and I love it. I can sum up my job as chief scout in three words, you know, encourage, encourage, encourage, you know, and shine the light on those, the, the, the young people because the stuff that they get up to, the, the missions they're on, the, the efforts, the endeavors, the expedition, what they do is amazing. They're leading the thing on climate change.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  They're leading in many refugee camps and disaster areas, helping, serving. And when you get 57 million young people around the world saying, I make a promise to be kind and helpful, you know, it's amazing. There's a power to that and it's brilliant. Do you think your, your career is complete?

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  I hope not, I hope not, I'm still hustling, I'm still, I like the, I like the struggle, I like the fight, I like the ambition, we've built a brilliant team, we're pushing many endeavors, you know, away from just the TV shows, you know, I'm super proud of our be military fit, our veterans fitness business, you know, we have our theme parks, our adventure parks at the NEC and we're opening up new ones around the world, we have the scout staff, we, you know, we have education initiatives, I love it, for me, it's about using this God given platform we've been given through the TV shows, to try and do exactly the same as we do with the TV shows, which is to shine a light on you and say, look what you can do. Will it ever be complete? And, and I hope not, I think, it's like my bucket list gets longer and longer as I live in life, you know, it's not, it's like the more things, we could, we could do that,

• 1:01:42Speaker 00

  and, and we could help do this, and, and I've always wanted to live with that eyes wide open, you know, willing to be all in, willing to fail, willing to put myself up with great people, have that focus mission of trying to empower other people, helping other people to find their adventures in life, whether it's through books or TV shows or whatever, to like, be able to go that extra mile, to be able to dig deep, to understand the storms of life come, but sometimes you've got to be dogged and determined to keep going. I want to bring that adventure spirit to people every day I live on this earth, that's the goal. To no end. To no end, I think, I mean, maybe I'll finish the TV shows one day, you know, that, that will naturally end in due course, I can't, I mean, to be honest, I never thought I'd

• 1:02:26Speaker 00

  still be doing it now, you know, but we're, we're doing more TV shows than ever before, we're doing a new network show on US TV next month, we're starting season eight of Running Wild, you know, still out there gunning it and going, and I love that, but the TV shows will end, but the adventures won't, you know, I, I, God willing, you know, I hope when, I'm old guy, I'm gonna having loads of adventures with my kids and eventually with grandkids and sharing that adventure spirit, because, as you know, you know, adventure is truly a state of mind, whatever you're doing, whatever, you know, my wife always jokes that I'm gonna be in the old people's home, go, come on, come on, we're gonna do, we're gonna go over the, you know, and I think that's a state of mind that is about pushing the boundaries and, you know.

• 1:03:10Speaker 00

  Having that resilience and that kind of wide-eyed gratitude for life and the connections. And because the truth is, the world is amazing and it's a huge privilege. You look at everything that's happening around the world, there's hardship and struggling and battle and and loss. And the fact that we get to, you know, have our families and have something we love to do and that we're safe and we live in this kind of a society that has a rule of law. And all these things are so easy to take for granted. We must never take that for granted. We've got to live with that eyes wide open, thank you, and and keep that adventure state of mind, firing bright that firing side, shining bright.

• 1:03:49Steven Bartlett?

  Never Give Up, the name of your recent book. This book, I got the sense that it was slightly more special than previous books to you and that it had taken five years to write this book, that you wrote it all yourself.

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  Hmm, it is, it took a long time, you know, I was reluctant to write it. I wrote an autobiography called Mud, Sweat and Tears originally. But the truth is, you know, and that book did well, you know, it did 20 weeks at number one and I always kind of felt that I'm, I'm not going to beat that, you know, I'm not going to do another, but we're done. But that book really ended as TV started and so many of the questions that I get asked by by my kids and by people in the street, always like the behind the scenes, what was it like on this? What was it like taking that person or what about the struggles there or whatever? And in a way, they're the stories that I wanted my boys to understand, you know, and I think my kids have kind of grown up and seen the good sides, seen the things that have worked, but aren't always aware of the many failures behind behind those successes.

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  And I wanted to be able to share all of that and share the things that actually made the difference and I wanted to write it myself and, you know, be honest in it. And so it took a long time to write, but I'm, I'm really proud of it. And I think it was always going to be called Never Give Up, you know, it's at a time where I think the world's coming through an incredibly, continues to be an incredibly tough time. And I think that spirit of relentless determination is needed more than ever with all people and young people especially. So I'm proud of the stories and. Proud to call it Never Give Up.

• 1:05:19Steven Bartlett?

  When I wrote my book, I I didn't realise this until I'd wrote it, that it was actually much more a learning process than it was a preaching process. You you because it is a journey writing a book. Is there something that you learnt that you didn't know before you started on that journey writing Never Give Up that was profound or a problem you solved from putting pen to paper that you that you hadn't solved before that comes to mind?

• 1:05:43Speaker 00

  Well, I've definitely learnt of the writing or speaking to be good. It has to be difficult. It has to be painful. You know, how often do we see the person who stands up and stands on stage and gives a talk and loves the sound of their own voice? And it's just like, it's a bore. They're a bore, you know? But the person who's, this is hard to articulate or talk about, but for what it's worth, this is where, you know, you're there. And it's the same with writing. I think it's got to be vulnerable and it's got to have that struggle to it.

• 1:06:19Speaker 00

  And that's why it took me a while. What do you find? What did you feel?

• 1:06:23Steven Bartlett?

  Well, yeah, for me, there was a couple of questions that when I started a chapter, I hadn't actually answered them yet. And by the end of the chapter, I'd answered the question, but it was because of that process. Well, is it easy for you to be vulnerable? Are you someone? Because we only think of someone that's been in the SAS and this, you know, again, talking about the public stereotype, you're a tough guy, resilience. Vulnerability seems to be the antithesis of that for other people, the complete opposite. How have you been? You know, we talk about toxic masculinity a lot now. I sat here with Terry Crews, the actor, big tough guy, and his new book Tough, which is about toxic masculinity. What's your relationship with vulnerability?

• 1:06:56Speaker 00

  Well, first of all, Terry Crews, hero and one of our running wild guests, actually. I took him on one last year and he was like with you, very honest about some of this stuff. Vulnerability was hard initially, but I think it's it's where life is, you know, and like with, like when you climb any big mountain, you know, where you rope to someone 24 hours a day, it brings you close. But it also is where the bonds are, you know? And when you, when you're vulnerable to someone, it creates a connection. You know, you and me probably feel more connected by being the vulnerability than the, look at this, you know? Vulnerability creates bonds and creates strength. But like all these things, there's a pain and a, it takes a strength to do it.

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  But I think I'm not scared to show that, you know, I've got nothing to prove. And I don't want people to think it's just all heroic, you know, I want people to know that that it's there's been many struggles through it, or but these things have quietly helped me. And I always think people have two faces of their life. One is like, you don't want the world to see who you really are. You're out there, you project this kind of image. And then the second half is you no longer care. You just want to be honest. And when you're honest, there's there's an amazing bonds with the really people you want to create bonds with. And some people have that realization at twenty five and they live the rest of their life in this empowered way. Some people don't reach that point until they're eighty five.

• 1:08:20Speaker 00

  They live the whole life with this mask and it's only when they're with that maybe nursing and nursing, the first person they're actually being honest and vulnerable and broken with. But you eventually realize it, you know, and the goal, I suppose, of life is to get to this place early because it's where the wealth is, it's where the it's where the happiness is because you're not having to pretend any longer.

• 1:08:41Steven Bartlett?

  And you can form those deeper relationships, as you said, which is exactly what happens when we have these conversations.

• 1:08:46Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 1:08:47Steven Bartlett?

  We have a closing tradition on the podcast, which is our last guest asks a question for the next guest. So the question is, if you had to predict, where will you be this time in five years' time?

• 1:09:04Speaker 00

  Wow, the truth is, I hope to hope to be doing the same sort of thing in the sense that living this mission of trying to empower other people to find their adventures through all these different means, you know, through the TV shows or the books or whatever, you know, I I love that mission, you know, it it starts from our relationship with my kids and it extends to scouts and it extends beyond that from there. So I hope to have that same mission, maybe at a slightly slower pace, you know, we film a lot of shows at the moment and it's a way a lot and it is, you know, it's it's definitely has full on elements to it. So maybe kind of dial down the pace a bit, but but.

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  Same mission and, and still protecting family first, you know, beyond before work, before, before even that mission, protect family first and, and keep that, those relationships strong. You know, my body aches every day. I've got many scars, like an old man getting up in the morning. But I don't apologize for any of those things. And I think by the end of my life, if I can, I don't want to arrive in a perfectly preserved body. It's that quote, I want to come skidding sideways, covered in scars, screaming, yo, what a ride, you know? And long may that spirit continue.

• 1:10:19Steven Bartlett?

  Ben, thank you so much for the time and generosity. I've got to say, this does really feel like a huge honour for me because of how infrequently you do anything like this. So I, I just want to communicate how much of an honour this genuinely feels like for me. And I feel very special and I feel like our team are very honoured to have you here and to have this conversation with you. You're someone that's achieved an unbelievable amount. And for you to be so honest and, because it would be so easy for you to say, to, to play into the narrative that you have superpowers, but it's almost impossible to get you to indulge in that. And as you say, that makes the things you've achieved so attainable for everybody that's listening, including myself. And if it is something that I can learn and grow and a muscle I can build, then that for me is incredibly empowering. And empowerment is so evidently at the centre of all the work you do with the scouts, with your new book, Never Go Up,

• 1:11:04Steven Bartlett?

  which I highly recommend everybody reads. The paperback is out on the 9th of June, but it's really, you can tell you've written it. You can tell that it's come from a place of real authenticity and someone who is, is willing to tell you the truth. And we need a lot more of that. So thank you. I'll never be able to say thank you enough for coming and doing this. And yeah, thanks for the inspiration over the years. You've made, you've empowered me just in this conversation.

• 1:11:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I so come. Well, likewise, you're doing an amazing job.

• 1:11:28Steven Bartlett?

  And thank you.

• 1:11:29Speaker 00

  Your dad, he will definitely know it.

• 1:11:31Steven Bartlett?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna text him, I'm gonna send him a voice note after this. So thank you, Ben. Thanks.