641. Rome’s Greatest Enemy: Hannibal’s Nemesis (Part 2)

What happened at the Battle of Ibera, a totemic though overlooked battle of the Punic Wars? With the forces of Carthage closing in on a depleted Rome, would a young Roman, Publius Cornelius Scipio resurrect the fortunes of the Republic? And, could he destroy Carthage’s most crucial power base in Europe? Join Tom and Dominic, as they discuss this next phase of the Carthaginian Wars. _______ To hear our previous series on the rise of Carthage, Hannibal, and the battle of Cannae, go to episodes: 421, 422, 423, 424, 568, 569, 570, 571. _______ Join The Rest Is History Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to every series and live show tickets, a members-only newsletter, discounted books from the show, and access to our private Discord chatroom. Sign up directly at the⁠restishistory.com⁠ For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Video Editors: Jack Meek + Harry Swan Social Producer: Harry Balden Producers: Tabby Syrett & Aaliyah Akude Executive Producer: Dom Johnson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Tom Holland?

  This episode is brought to you by AutoTrader. Now, if car shopping feels like a massive faff, buying your car online at AutoTrader makes it way easier, really.

• 0:16Dominic Sandbrook?

  So you can shop loads and loads of cars online. You can compare prices. You can check the financing and trade-in options. And of course, you can do it from wherever you are. You start online, go to the dealer for your test drive and finish wherever works for you. Your information, your data stays with you, so there is no starting over. Plus, you are working with local dealers and there are real people there to help.

• 0:42Tom Holland?

  So buy your car online on AutoTrader, really.

• 0:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. We obviously love history here. It's always a treat to make a new discovery, especially in unexpected ways.

• 0:59Tom Holland?

  Which is exactly what happens on TikTok. Like, you know coffee? You make it, add milk, drink it. Nothing more, except...

• 1:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  Except, when you hop on TikTok, you don't just learn how to make an authentic cappuccino. You can also discover videos about how in the 1700s, people would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it.

• 1:25Tom Holland?

  And suddenly, you're imagining how people lived, drank, socialised. Makes you wonder what will baffle historians about us? And that's the joy of TikTok. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different.

• 1:40Dominic Sandbrook?

  Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok.

• 1:43Tom Holland?

  Visit tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 1:52Tom Holland?

  Hello everyone, I am here with some exceedingly exciting news. Now, as all our beloved club members will already know, one of the very best things of being a member of The Rest Is History Club is getting access to exclusive Members Only Mini Series. That's right, Mini Series, not just individual episodes. So these are special episodes every other month, which only club members can listen to, no one else. And we've got a brand new one coming out this February. So that's going to be the very first one of 2026. And it is presented by me and the great art critic Laura Cumming. Four episodes, and it's about paintings that shed

• 2:37Tom Holland?

  a particularly fascinating light on history. And it covers a broad range of times and places. So everything from Velázquez's Las Meninas, described by many critics as the greatest of all paintings, right the way up to Henry Rayburn's Skating Minister. What do these paintings tell us about the times in which they were painted? It's really, really fascinating stuff. And members will get a new one of those episodes every Wednesday, and it is starting this week on the 4th of February. So that's the Wednesday. And if you are not watching it on YouTube or Spotify, if you're just listening to it as a podcast, don't worry, because we will be sending all our members an email,

• 3:19Tom Holland?

  which will be going into greater written detail about the painting, but also obviously giving you an image of the painting itself. So you can have a quick look at that, perhaps, before you listen to the episode. Although I have to say that Laura's descriptions of each painting are so good that perhaps you don't even need to look at the painting. So if you would like to sign up to that Mini Series and to the other five Mini Series that we will be doing this year, which will be covering everything from History's Greatest Photographs, the Vietnam War, to England's She-wolves, then you know where to go. Go to therestishistory.com if you are not already a club member and sign up there.

• 4:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  Massinisus had already heard a great deal about Scipio's prowess as a general, and hugely admired him. The new midian had formed a picture of the Roman in his mind's eye as a man of powerful and striking physique. But when at last he came face to face with Scipio, he was awe-struck. For in the flesh, the Roman general was even more impressive than he had been in Massinisus's imaginings. Naturally possessed of great dignity, Scipio also, thanks to his longer hair, got a most graceful figure.

• 4:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  This, however, owed nothing to any effeminate fussing over fashion or personal grooming, but rather to an appearance and bearing that was virile in the extreme, for he was the very model of a warrior. Scipio was just at the age when his physical powers were at full strength, and even though he had recently been ill, he had quite recaptured his youthful bloom. Indeed, he seemed more ansom than ever. So that was Rob Brydon describing one of history's more homoerotic summit meetings. Actually, it was the Italian-born Roman historian Livy.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  So that was your Roman accent, was it?

• 5:34Dominic Sandbrook?

  That was the accent of an Italian, but actually, it was, as it went on, it degenerated into the accent of an Italian who had set up an ice cream parlor in Swansea in the 1910s.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Dominic, you and Welsh history, we just can't stop you doing it.

• 5:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's great to have some Welsh history back on the show. So that was the Roman historian Livy, and he's describing this exciting meeting in 206 B.C. We are on the Atlantic coast of Iberia now, Spain, and the participants are two extremely strapping, well-oiled and handsome warlords. One of them is Massinis, who is a Berber prince from modern-day Algeria, Numidia as it then was, and the other is Publius Cornelius Scipio, who is a Roman patrician, a young man whom we met in our previous episode. And Scipio, listeners may recall, was the officer whom, 10 years before this meeting,

• 6:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  had rallied the Mede of Rome in the wake of their shattering defeat at Cannae, and he had made them swear never to desert our country, nor to permit any other citizen of Rome to leave her in the lurch. So, 10 years on, here he is, meeting this oiled warlord. Tom, explain what's going on.

• 6:51Tom Holland?

  Well, I mean, extraordinary, aware of accents, for starters, but there are some other puzzles as well. So, first of all, attentive listeners may be wondering, what is a Numidian doing, meeting up with a Roman? Because people who've listened to our previous episodes in this ongoing series will recall that the Numidians are the allies not of Rome, but of Carthage. And in fact, they are key allies, because they are the best, like, cavalry in the world. They ride bareback, they don't bother with reins, they have spears and all kinds of things. And they are the horsemen who have provided Hannibal effectively with the cutting edge

• 7:34Tom Holland?

  throughout his invasion of Italy and his occupation of Italy. And the Romans have learned to dread the Numidians possibly more than any other of the units in Hannibal's army. So, what is going on here? And secondly, what on earth is up with Scipio? Because, Dominic, you read this kind of stern, traditionalist statement of Roman pluck and determination.

• 8:03Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 8:04Tom Holland?

  I mean, Scipio is only 19 when he's saying that, so he's very callow. It's very, very old school. I mean, it's patriotic in exactly the way that Roman traditionalists expect young men to be patriotic.

• 8:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  But something has changed and something very, very sinister. If you recall, the people who were paying attention to that reading and frankly, who wasn't, Scipio now has long hair, the most un-Roman thing imaginable. So is he like you going to India on your gap year? Is that what's going on?

• 8:33Tom Holland?

  Well, I mean, someone else who went to India, of course, is Alexander the Great. And there's a definite hint of Alexander there. And what is also a hint of Alexander is the fact that according to Pliny the Elder, admittedly writing centuries later, but I think we can rely on him. Scipio was the first Roman to shave daily. So up until that point, Romans had generally been bearded. But now Scipio has introduced this fashion for a clean chin. And that again, of course, is very, very Alexander. And when you think of that description, that passage that you read, the sense of awe that Massanissa feels at seeing this kind of divine, godlike figure. I mean, it's quite Homeric.

• 9:16Tom Holland?

  It's the way that that people are described in the Iliad, for instance, seeing Achilles. So all in all, Scipio is cutting for Roman traditionalists, a disturbingly kind of Greek dash. Because Roman commanders are supposed to be old and craggy and bearded and all of that. And they are not supposed to look like Achilles. They are not supposed to look like Alexander the Great. So something odd is absolutely going on here.

• 9:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  So when Livy is describing Scipio, there is a sense here, isn't there, that Scipio is more than an ordinary Roman general, as you've described, really, this business about Alexander the Great, for example. There is a sense, isn't there, in Livy's description, that Scipio is, he's marketing himself as something actually quite old fashioned, as a Greek style, as indeed a Homeric hero, right? Somebody who has been appointed by the gods to lead the Romans back from the abyss of Canai and Lake Trasimene and all the defeats that Hannibal has inflicted on them. And do you think this is a conscious thing? Do you think Livy is genuinely reporting Scipio's PR strategy, as it were?

• 10:22Tom Holland?

  This is how Livy puts it. He absolutely says it's a PR strategy. So to quote Livy, "From Scipio's earliest days, he used to present his policies and actions as inspired by dreams or by warnings from heaven." And this is very ostentatiously performative. So Livy tells us that Scipio, before he takes any course of action, he will go up to the Capitol, very obviously, and sit in the Temple of Jupiter, as though he is communing with the God. And this in turn fosters what Livy describes as a very empty and foolish story, once told of Alexander the Great. That Scipio had been born from the embraces of a giant serpent, a monster that had often visited his mother in her bedroom,

• 11:04Tom Holland?

  but had always glided away and vanished the moment someone came in. I mean, skeptics may say, well, there's not seen evidence for this at all, but clearly what Scipio is doing is trying to imply that the serpent might have been Jupiter. Because of course, Dom, you will remember that very similar stories were told of Alexander, that Jupiter had come in the form of a snake to Alexander's mother.

• 11:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  So Scipio doesn't, obviously doesn't deny these stories, does he? Why would he? As Livy says in his account, whether he was truly so superstitious as to believe this nonsense, or whether he fostered reports of it so that people would obey him the more, is unclear. So Scipio just lets the stories kind of build and build. Now, I guess Scipio knows that what the Romans are craving is... Well, at first, what they were craving was a figure of reassurance, right? A conservative figure, a memory of Roman virtues past. But he's changing, isn't he? And he's developing a new strategy to sort of impress his personality on the Roman masses. And he's becoming, I dare, I mean, Tom, you have compared him in your notes to a rock star.

• 12:09Tom Holland?

  He's turning himself into a figure. Of kind of rock star glamour and charisma. He's very, he's very good looking. He's very suave and he's kind of promoting himself as possibly as the son of a god. And of course, he is in a republic and republics don't tend to look favourably on kind of rock stars posing as the son of a god.

• 12:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  So there must be some people who think this guy's a terrible person. I mean, this is that he's showy and brash. And I mean, this is actually a complaint that people will level at lots of Roman figures to come, isn't it?

• 12:39Tom Holland?

  Yes, but Scipio is establishing a brand that, as you say, many Romans to come will copy well into the period when the Republic has actually collapsed and been replaced by an empire. But Scipio is blazing the path for, you know, these kind of younger showboating emperors who will appear.

• 12:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  But Scipio is going to end up, so a lot of people listening to this may already know, Scipio is going to end up as the great antagonist of Hannibal. The two of them are kind of linked in the imagination for people who study the classical world. And their encounter, their duel will become the great turning point in the Punic Wars. And Scipio gives the Romans the one thing they've craved all this time, which is their own figure with the glamour, the charisma and the effectiveness, the military effectiveness of Hannibal. Now, actually Hannibal is relatively well born, isn't he, in Carthaginian terms? And Scipio is also extremely well born. I mean, he is positively posh. He went to Harrow, Christchurch.

• 13:42Tom Holland?

  Maybe Christchurch or did he go to Durham? No, he went to Christchurch because he, I mean, he's the poshest of the posh. And he's very smart, he's very charismatic. I mean, he's got it all because he is a patrician. So he is from one of the ancient aristocratic dynasties of Rome. But having said that, actually, the Scipios have only recently come into political prominence. And basically, the Punic Wars has been the making of the Scipios and their reputation. So back in the first Punic War, two of them had done well enough to be awarded triumphs. Scipio's uncle is called Calvus, he's nicknamed Calvus, which means baldy. He had been consul in 222 and was a great man for having a crack at the Gauls.

• 14:26Tom Holland?

  The Romans always liked people who could defeat the Gauls. And Calvus's brother, Scipio's father, Publius, people may remember, had been consul in 218, which was the year that Hannibal had invaded Italy. And admittedly, he hadn't exactly covered himself in glory in that campaign. He tried to to stop Hannibal from invading Italy and failed. And he'd been injured before the Battle of Trebia. But he hadn't totally screwed things up. And compared to the record of other consuls who had taken on Hannibal, I mean, that's, you know, that's not bad. And it suggested, I think, to the to the Roman people, to the Roman government, that Publius, he had a kind of a basic competence.

• 15:08Tom Holland?

  And that, in the scale of the crisis that Rome was facing, was considered to be enough. And so by 217, both these Scipio brothers, Calvus, who is the young Scipio's uncle, and Publius, his father, they have been sent to Iberia, to Spain.

• 15:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  And to clarify, so Spain later on, it's obviously an integral part of the Roman Empire. Hadrian comes from Spain, doesn't he? But at the time, so, you know, we're 200 years before the birth of Christ. Spain is a very alien and exotic and terrifying place for the Romans.

• 15:43Tom Holland?

  It's like something out of a science fiction epic. It's like being sent to a hostile planet because it is teeming with hostile barbarians who clean their teeth with their own urine. I mean, completely shocking. And they are masters of a lethal weapon. And this is a short stabbing sword which works by eviscerating an opponent. You plunge it in and you slice it up and all the guts spill out. And the Romans call this weapon a gladius, which is a word that later Roman scholars will derive from the Latin word cladace, which means slaughter. So kind of synonymous with butchering your enemies. And the Romans have already experienced the gladius because Hannibal has brought lots

• 16:28Tom Holland?

  of Iberians with him to Italy. And unsurprisingly, because the Romans are very, very adaptive, particularly when it comes to kind of military matters. They have begun to use the Gladius for themselves and are starting to master it. But obviously, it's unsettling to be up against a whole peninsula full of warriors who were born basically to use it. And so I think that the prime duty of the Scipio brothers when they arrive, and there's a kind of Roman outpost in the northwest of Iberia, basically what's now Catalonia, their prime responsibility is not to be wiped out.

• 17:09Tom Holland?

  And this is a huge challenge because they have been sent as the news back in Italy is going from bad to worse. So Hannibal has been inflicting, you know, these incredible defeats on the Romans that we did in the previous series. Lake Trasimene has just been fought, you know, an entire army has been wiped out, a consul killed and all of that. And this means that the Senate can't really send many men or many, you know, supplies or indeed cash to bribe the local tribes to Spain. And so effectively, the two Scipio brothers are penned into, let's call it Catalonia anachronistically. It's dangerous for them to venture out of that. So if you think of Spain perhaps as being a little bit like Arrakis, Dune in the Frank

• 17:54Tom Holland?

  Herbert novels, you know, they are hemmed in and they feel that it is perilous to leave that. And I think that if people have a sense of this whole story that we're doing today as something that could very easily provide the plot of a kind of, one of those epic science fiction novels set on distant planets, they will not be far wrong. The clash of mighty galactic empires, that kind of thing.

• 18:16Dominic Sandbrook?

  Okay, so to remind people exactly where we are, we are back at the point when Hannibal is kind of cutting a swathe through Italy. We're with the two Scipio brothers who are our Scipio, so the long-haired boke, it's his father and uncle. And so we've we've sort of gone back in time. So we're in Spain and the problem for them is that they are now facing not just, you know, one Carthaginian general and not just the Iberians with these fancy swords, but the entire Carthaginian Empire now controls the whole of the southern part of the Iberian Peninsula, doesn't it? And the guy in charge of the Carthaginians at this point in this part of the world is Hannibal's younger brother,

• 18:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  Hazdrubal. And he has with him a pretty mighty force, 13,000 infantrymen, 3,000 cavalry, he has 21 war elephants. He's got all these mines that are the key really to Spain's wealth. It's what makes Spain so attractive to outsiders. So gold, silver, copper. And he has a city that we talked about last time. They've called it Carthage, the Romans call it New Carthage. And this is the sort of centre, the base of the Carthaginian Empire in Spain. And this city is on four hills overlooking a fantastic harbour. It's to this day, one of Spain's, Cartagena is one of Spain's key naval bases, you know, like so many cities across the Mediterranean world, it's got these amazing fortifications. And it has a direct road link with the mines

• 19:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  that makes it extremely rich. And basically, if Hazdrubal, the Carthaginian, can keep hold of this, then the Scipio brothers, basically, they can do what they like, but they're not going to dislodge him from the Iberian Peninsula.

• 19:54Tom Holland?

  So the Greek historian Polybius, who is our best source for the Punic Wars, I mean, he describes it as the chief ornament and the centre of the Carthaginian Empire in Spain. Because not only is it linked to the mines in the hinterland, but it is also, of course, open to the sea. So it's it's what enables New Carthage to communicate with Carthage and of course with Italy. And what this means is that Hazdrubal and the powers in Carthage can coordinate to try and raise reinforcements that can then be sent onwards to Italy.

• 20:30Tom Holland?

  And this is absolutely, goes without saying, the last thing that the Romans want. They do not want a second Barker brother, so Hannibal Barker, Hasdrubal Barker. They do not want Hasdrubal Barker turning up in Italy with yet another massive Carthaginian army with his elephants and his Numidians and his Spaniards with their terrifying stabbing swords and so on. So essentially, the Scipio brothers are where they are in the north-west corner of Iberia by the Pyrenees, essentially to block off Hasdrubal's access route to southern Gaul so that he can't follow Hannibal into Italy. And their objective is not just to stop Hannibal, but to try and conquer and win over as many of the Iberian tribes

• 21:14Tom Holland?

  as possible, and ideally, you know, conquer them for Rome. But if they can't do that, then at the very least, kind of foster anti-Carthaginian feeling so that Hasdrubal will have his hands full trying to kind of put out rebellions in Spain. And Hasdrubal's goal is obviously to raise an enormous army and march through Gaul into Italy. And for the Romans, the supreme moment of peril comes in the spring of 215, which is the year after Canai. And Hasdrubal has raised an enormous task force. And he leaves New Carthage, and as Hannibal had done three years before, he advances northwards at the head of this vast force. And his aim is to cross the Pyrenees, advance through Gaul, and join his brother in Italy. And if he's successful, then Hannibal's forces will be

• 21:59Tom Holland?

  doubled. And it is hard to see in the wake of Canai, how the Romans then would have been able to carry on the fight. So this is really a crucial moment in the war.

• 22:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  So the two Scipios, they are basically standing in his way. And they meet Hasdrubal just south of the river Ebro, outside a town called Ibera. And this is actually one of the most significant battles in history, arguably that nobody has ever heard of. Because as you say, if Hasdrubal manages to cross the Alps, join Hannibal in Italy, that looks really dicey for the Romans. But what happens, Tom, at the Battle of Ibera? It's actually a Roman victory.

• 22:38Tom Holland?

  It is. The Roman infantry, always their strongest arm, meet with the Carthaginian infantry and essentially wipe them out. Hasdrubal is able to withdraw with his cavalry, so it's not a total victory. But it is sufficient to abort Hasdrubal's onward march to Italy. So there is a case for saying that this is the decisive moment of the war. Absolutely a candidate perhaps for the title of the most decisive battle in history that no one has ever heard of. However, as we say, it doesn't finish Hasdrubal off, because he has withdrawn with his cavalry. And towards the end of that year, 215, he is joined in Iberia by a very, very glamorous figure indeed. And this is Hasdrubal, and therefore Hannibal's

• 23:19Tom Holland?

  youngest brother. And this is a guy called Mago. And we talked about Mago in our series about Hannibal's invasion. Mago had accompanied Hannibal into Italy, and he had done very well. So at the Battle of Trebia, the first of Hannibal's great victories, people may remember, the Carthaginian cavalry had hidden behind some bushes, and then sprung out and attacked the Romans in the rear. And Mago had led them. So, you know, absolutely crucial part in that victory. Canai, he had stood next to his brother in the most critical and vulnerable position in the Carthaginian line. So he's incredibly brave. He had then been sent by Hannibal to Carthage to announce the news of the great victory at Canai, which

• 24:00Tom Holland?

  he had done very flamboyantly, by bringing in an enormous sack full of the gold rings that had been taken from the slaughtered bigwigs in the Roman army. And he kind of empties the sack full of rings onto the floor of the Carthaginian Senate House. And everyone in the Senate is enormously impressed, even people who normally would be very hostile to the Barker brothers, because they're kind of jealous and resentful of them. And the Carthaginian Senate decides, you know, we need to weigh in here. And so they have voted to raise more troops, so infantry, cavalry, elephants, and to pay for it. And these have now sailed from Carthage to new Carthage. And

• 24:41Tom Holland?

  Hasdrubal's forces have now been swollen again.

• 24:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  So to recap, we now have a situation on the Iberian Peninsula in Spain, where we have two rival armies, one Roman, one Carthaginian, led by two rival pairs of brothers. So this really does feel like sort of Frank Herbert's gone mad.

• 24:58Tom Holland?

  Exactly.

• 24:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  People haven't yet started turning into sandworms, but it's very science fiction, isn't it?

• 25:03Tom Holland?

  Yeah, I mean, only in a science fiction epic or the Second Punic War would you have a situation where you have two rival sets of brothers facing each other in a weird alien landscape. And basically, they're now pretty evenly matched. So Calvus and Publius, they succeed in blocking Hasdrubal from leading reinforcements to Italy. You know, they feel that they're doing their job. But Mago, who is by far the ablest commander in Spain, he succeeds in keeping the native Iberians loyal to Carthage and blocking every attempt the Romans make to expand beyond their northern enclave. And finally, in 211, the Scipio brothers think, oh, this is ridiculous. We've got to break out. We've got to try and, you know, take the battle to the Carthaginians.

• 25:48Tom Holland?

  And so they marched southwards towards New Carthage, but it all goes horribly wrong. So first, Mago wipes out an army led by Publius, who was Scipio's father. And then a few days later, Hasdrubal crushes the second Roman force, which was being led by Calvus, Scipio's uncle, and both Publius and Calvus are killed. And two factors in particular lie behind these twin defeats. And the first is the, I mean, we could call it the Little Big Horn Strategy that had been adopted by the two Roman commanders. They had essentially divided their forces, meaning that it then became easier for the Carthaginians to pick them off. But also, another factor was the presence in the Carthaginian ranks

• 26:32Tom Holland?

  of a brilliant young cavalry commander, and this is a guy we have already met. This is Massinis, the Numidian who was so besotted by the godlike appearance of the young Scipio. So at this point, he is barely 20, but he's already very, very Very seasoned. He'd already won a war on behalf of his father back in Africa against a rival Numidian king called Siphax, who we will be hearing about later. So he's seen off Siphax, he's kept his dad on the, on his throne in Numidia, and now he's arrived in, in Spain at the head of 3,000 horsemen. And he is there to serve against the Romans.

• 27:15Tom Holland?

  And he and his cavalry had played the leading role in harrying the Romans under the two Scipio brothers to their doom. And Livy records the details. Day and night, he would cut off parties of Romans who were distant from their camp in search of wood or fodder. Often Massinisus would ride right up to the camp itself and charge at the gallop through the outpost guarding it, causing the most terrible confusion.

• 27:40Dominic Sandbrook?

  So thanks to Hasdrubal and Mago, and particularly to this swashbuckling Numidian prince Massinisus, it looks like the Carthaginian presence in Spain, of course, access to those crucial mines is secure. Because you would think that if the Romans are fighting a life or death struggle with Hannibal in Italy on home territory, they will not be able to spare or to muster new forces to prosecute the war in Spain. And the question, of course, is even if they could, who on earth would they have left to send as their commander? Well, the answer is there surely in Massinisus. As Alex Ferguson would tell you in 1996,

• 28:22Dominic Sandbrook?

  sometimes you have to reach for the kids. And maybe this is what the Romans have to do now, isn't it, Tom? Because they are basically in this, in the position of, what are they called? The Fremen in Arrakis in Dune. Tabby says nice in the chat.

• 28:40Tom Holland?

  Yeah. So as you say, the, the Carthaginians have got their kind of dashing youth. Is it time that the Romans summon up a dashing youth of their own? And if they're going to do that, who could this dashing youth possibly be? Where, Dominic, can they find a Dune Messiah? We'll be answering these questions after the break.

• 29:04Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Right now, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. So go to mintmobile.com/history. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months, plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50GB may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20GB of hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 29:43Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Tom, as you know, I spend all my time working. And in a dream world, I would clone a sort of Tom Holland, who would do all the work for me. But sadly, technology has not advanced to that point. If it did, I wish there was a recruiting company that I could use to hire that clone for me. Well, Dominic, you are in luck. Because if you are hiring, then ZipRecruiter is the great time saver. You can try it free at ziprecruiter.com/history. It shows you qualified candidates almost instantly. So save time with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter

• 30:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/history. That's ziprecruiter.com/history. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  Hello, I'm Professor Hannah Fry.

• 30:48Speaker 04

  And I'm Michael Stephens. Together, we host The Rest Is Science, a brand new show from Goalhanger.

• 30:53Speaker 03

  Every week, we take a fresh look at the familiar. We're going to be exploring the forces, the theories and the phenomena that shape how we live in, think about and see the world. We're going to pull apart what we take for granted to reveal the unexpected patterns and hidden logic just beneath the surface.

• 31:12Speaker 04

  Because that's what moves science forward, not the polishing of answers, but the sharpening of questions. It's curiosity that sparks those, hey, wait, how does that actually work? Kind of a moment that changes the way we see the world.

• 31:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, science isn't a subject. It's a way of seeing it, a way of noticing all of the extraordinary things that are hiding in plain sight and realizing that the familiar was never ordinary at all.

• 31:36Speaker 04

  Stick around until the end of this episode for a first listen. And if curiosity gets the better of you, join us every Tuesday and Thursday for new episodes of The Rest Is Science.

• 31:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  Welcome back to Frank Herbert's Dune, To The Rest Is History. It is 210 B.C. We are in the city of Rome. And amid the marble halls of Hollywood's imagination, a young man called Scipio, Publius Cornelius Scipio, 25 years old. He's suspiciously clean shaven, even more suspiciously long haired. There's talk that he has been farthered by a snake. And this young man has just been elected by public vote to command of the Roman armies in Iberia in Spain. Now, Tom, I said elected by public vote. This is unusual, isn't it? Because isn't normally the Senate that appoints commanders rather than the Roman people?

• 32:36Tom Holland?

  Yeah, it's very unusual because, as you say, it, the Senate is very jealous of its prerogative. The Senate has the right to appoint commanders. What are the people doing poking their noses into, you know, this important business? Because it is taken for granted that commanders should be elected magistrates. But Scipio is not an elected magistrate. He is a privatus, a private citizen. And it is also the Roman custom to put a premium on experience. They tend to regard youth not as something dashing, but as something potentially sinister, that a Roman commander who is under the age of 40. Is generally assumed to be kind of impulsive and headstrong and rash.

• 33:20Tom Holland?

  So listeners may therefore be wondering, well, how on earth did the 25 year old Scipio, you know, this private citizen, how on earth did he manage to get this command? I mean, it's undoubtedly the case that the people adore him. He's glamorous, he's dashing, he provides them with a, you know, a touch of colour amid the kind of monochrome grind of the war against Hannibal. And although at the same time, although lots of people in the Senate are indeed suspicious of him, I think there are also lots of them that can recognise the advantages of sending him specifically to Spain. Because remember, he is the son of one of the commanders who'd been in Spain and he

• 34:03Tom Holland?

  is the nephew of another of those commanders. So the name of Scipio in Iberia has a real cachet. And I think that even in the Senate, there are people who feel, well, we would be mad not to capitalise on this. The issue for them is they don't want to be seen to be appointing a 25 year old. That if they do it, it would establish a sinister precedent. And so that's where the, you know, the popular vote comes in. They can get the people to vote for him and essentially they're kind of washing hands of the responsibility. So Scipio, he gets his command. He leaves Rome, he arrives in Spain and the situation that he finds waiting for him is a very, very rocky one.

• 34:48Tom Holland?

  So obviously the Romans have lost two major battles. So their numbers in their kind of enclave in the North West of Spain are badly depleted. The Iberian tribes, you know, they're busy cleaning their teeth with urine, sharpening their stabbing swords, all of that. These are people who only really respect success. And this in turn means that now the Romans have been so comprehensively defeated by the Carthaginians, they are much likelier to swing Carthaginian wise. And this obviously is brilliant for the Carthaginian commanders because their numbers have now swollen and they are able to put three armies in the field. So there is one Under Hasdrubal, Hannibal's younger brother, which is stationed in central Spain, near what would today be the city of Toledo.

• 35:33Tom Holland?

  There's another under Maegoe, who is Hannibal's youngest brother, near the pillars of Hercules, what today is Gibraltar. And there is a third army by the mouth of the Tagus. So that is, Dominic, your favourite city, Lisbon.

• 35:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  I love Lisbon. So the Carthaginians are not thinking about, they don't think they're going to be having to fight a defensive war to maintain their foothold in Spain. They actually are thinking about expanding their empire, as it were. They want to conquer northern Spain. They want to get more manpower. They want to get more mines, more natural resources. And once they've done that, they think, right, we'll finish with the Iberian Peninsula. And then Hasdrubal can lead a task force into, you know, through southern France, across the Alps, into Italy, as we have been hoping to do for so long.

• 36:20Tom Holland?

  That, as always, is their prime goal.

• 36:22Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 36:22Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 36:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  So actually, that winter, the Carthaginians do not retire to their base at New Carthage, but they remain in their forward bases because they are on the front foot. It's they, they believe, who are prosecuting the war.

• 36:35Tom Holland?

  Yes, and it's clear as well that they regard Scipio with contempt. They haven't factored him into this at all. They feel that the Romans have been beaten. And this is, you know, and their focus now is essentially, as you say, on conquering the remaining Iberian tribes. But this is going to prove a very, very serious mistake because the young Scipio has arrived to take up his command with a very, very bold plan in his head indeed. And so that spring, his first, you know, it's his first campaigning season in Spain. He musters every last soldier that he has. And it comes to about 20,000 infantry, two and a half thousand cavalry. And he heads south along the coast, as his father and uncle had done the previous year.

• 37:17Tom Holland?

  And as he goes, he is shadowed by the Roman fleet. And this is commanded by his closest friend, a guy called Gaius Lilius. And Lilius is the only other person in the task force who knows where they are heading. The only person that Scipio has entrusted with his brilliant plan. So southward they march, along the road, on and on and on. And finally, a week after they've left, so on the seventh day, they arrive before their destination. And this destination, Dominic, is

• 37:54Tom Holland?

  The great city of New Carthage. It's obviously an incredibly bold strategy. It's been fostered by the fact that Scipio knows that the Carthaginian armies are at least 10 days' march away. And that the garrison that has been left in New Carthage is basically only about 1,000 strong. But even so, we said how, you know, it has these kind of bristling fortifications. It's a very, very strong city. I mean, it's a big, big ask to take it. And I think that Scipio's men, when they realise the job that their young general has set them, you know, they feel a bit alarmed. They think, oh, God, actually, you know, everybody says about young commanders is true.

• 38:38Tom Holland?

  They are rash, they are headstrong, they do come up with mad ideas. But Scipio summons his men and he addresses them and he appears sublimely self-confident. And he tells them, "It is the god Neptune who first suggested this plan to me." So he's now moved on from talking to Jupiter, he's talking to Neptune, the god of the sea. "He appeared to me in a dream and has promised to show his support for us by means of a spectacular sign."

• 39:04Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, to be fair, this is very, you compared with Alexander the Great. This is certainly the kind of stuff that Alexander the Great would come out with. And people would say, hurrah, yeah, I completely believe this, let's do it. And actually, you know, it's a good comparison.

• 39:15Tom Holland?

  What happens immediately is that Lylias, the naval commander, you know, he assembles his ships and they surround the harbour, blocking off access. And the main body of Scipio's men launched a massive frontal assault on the city walls. And the defenders are entirely focused on resisting this. Meanwhile, Scipio has recruited a crack squad of elite, handpicked men, and he takes them on a secret mission. Because north of the city, there stretches a lagoon. And because the waters are normally so deep and because every defender in New Carthage is required to stave off this kind of main Roman assault, the walls that rise above the lagoon.

• 39:56Tom Holland?

  Are unguarded because they assume that, well, no one will be able to cross the lagoon. So Scipio arrives with his crack squad of elite handpicked men on the shores of the lagoon. And they look out and there it is. And then beyond the lagoon are the northern walls of New Carthage. And as they gaze at the walls, there is a palpable miracle because a heron lands and stands in the water. And this reveals to the Romans that the waters are ebbing.

• 40:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  You say a miracle, but isn't that pretty standard with waters that they ebb and flow?

• 40:29Tom Holland?

  It turns out that this is in fact a regular phenomenon, that it happens every so often.

• 40:34Dominic Sandbrook?

  Does it not happen every day?

• 40:35Tom Holland?

  It's not a regular tide, but but every so often the tide does go out.

• 40:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  Okay.

• 40:39Tom Holland?

  And Scipio has been informed about this and he's worked out that this is the moment when he needs to be there. But obviously, he doesn't tell this to his men and they all assume that this is the sign from Neptune that Scipio had promised them. And so they wade in through the shallows, reach the base of the walls, they've brought ladders with them, they put them up against the against the walls, they climb over. And there is no one to stop them. And now they can rush forward, they can open the gates of the city. The Romans who've been doing the full frontal assault can pile in as well. And there is unbelievable slaughter. And we know this because Polybius, this Greek historian, he goes on to interview Lilius, who is Scipio's friend who'd been in command of the fleet. And he revealed just how brutal the slaughter had been. So to quote Polybius,

• 41:24Tom Holland?

  "The practice of the Romans is to inspire terror. And so when they capture a city, you will often see not just the corpses of human beings, but dogs cut in half and the dismembered limbs of other animals." And Lilius specifies to Polybius that this is what was happening in New Carthage after the Romans had got in. And so unsurprisingly, the Carthaginian commander, seeing the horror, realising that he has no prospect of keeping the city, he duly surrenders. And so the slaughter stops. And New Carthage, unbelievably, is Scipio's. He has seized the great nerve centre of the Carthaginian Empire. I mean, an amazing coup.

• 42:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  So this is an extraordinary moment because what this has done is it means that the Romans now have the wealth of New Carthage, they have the supplies, they have the resources, they have the harbour, so they have a wonderful link now with the sea. And Scipio begin immediately turns it into what Polypius calls workshop of war, doesn't he? So he starts to recruit troops, he's drilling them, he's kind of endlessly schooling them in kind of the tactics they will need that he has learned from Hannibal, he's making weapons. And the PR, the propaganda effects of this, perhaps the most crucial element, because basically this is sending a message to the people of the Iberian Peninsula. The Romans are back and they're here in a big way and they are the winners now.

• 42:47Tom Holland?

  Yeah, and the Iberians love a winner. By the spring of 208, Hazdrubal knows he's got a massive crisis on his hands because he's lost his capital, but he is now increasingly losing the loyalty of all these kind of various Iberian warlords who are thinking, well, Scipio's a winner, let's back him. And a whole posse of warlords by the spring of 208 have decided that they are actively going to back the Romans. And so, again, to quote Polypius, "They all prostrated themselves before Scipio and hailed him as king." And of course, the word king is a very dirty word to the Romans, they are a republic, they don't like kings. But Scipio accepts that, you know, the name has a kind of glamour that will help his

• 43:32Tom Holland?

  cause. And so he, you know, he accepts it, which in the, in the long run won't go down well in Rome, but, you know, needs must.

• 43:40Dominic Sandbrook?

  So the issue now for Hazdrubal, his rival, Hazdrubal knows that basically the entire war hinges on this, right? Because Carthage really, really needs Spain to continue being at the, as it were, the top table of international kind of superpower rivalry.

• 43:57Tom Holland?

  Well, and more than that, if they lose Spain, then there's no way that Hannibal can win in Italy. Because if supplies and troops from Spain cannot reach Italy, then in the long run, Hannibal will lose.

• 44:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  So do you think Hazdrubal at this point is thinking, right, well, I need to really force the issue, let's get this over and done with now because having lost New Carthage, I can't hang around. So this is why he basically rolls the dice and says, right, we'll go for Italy right now, we will march there with the expeditionary force to give my brother the reinforcements he needs and let's finish this.

• 44:24Tom Holland?

  Yes, and so it is obvious to both sides that this is... The great fulcrum point of the whole war. This is the moment of supreme crisis. Everything hangs on what happens next. So obviously, the Romans are desperate to stop Hazdrabal. The best way for them to stop Hazdrabal joining up with Hannibal is to prevent him leaving Iberia at all. So early that summer, Scipio advances into the depths of Iberia. He attacks Hazdrabal's base and he manages to inflict serious casualties. But he can't prevent Hazdrabal from doing a withdrawal from his base.

• 45:06Tom Holland?

  And nor, over the next few months, can he prevent Hazdrabal from rebuilding his army. And by the winter of 208, Hazdrabal has advanced through Spain, over the Pyrenees, and has arrived in southern Gaul where he is wintering. And wintering in southern Gaul gives him the opportunity to recruit lots of warriors from Gaul. The Gauls hate the Romans. This is what Hannibal had done when he'd gone. So his army is now really substantial. And come spring the next year, so the campaigning season, he leads his army, complete with 10 elephants, over the Alps. And people may be wondering, well, we hear all about Hannibal crossing the Alps. We never hear about Hazdrabal crossing the Alps. What's going on?

• 45:51Tom Holland?

  I mean, the reason is that he, you know, he does it expertly. He does it with incredible competence. And I think essentially the reason that we remember Hannibal's crossing is that he doesn't do it nearly as competently as Hazdrabal did. Anyway, so Hazdrabal descends from the Alps. He arrives in northern Italy and the Romans' worst nightmare has happened. There are now two huge armies, each one led by a Barca brother, in their backyard.

• 46:14Dominic Sandbrook?

  There are two consuls in Rome who have the job of stopping these two brothers. And one is in the north. He has six legions and he's got to stop Hazdrabal. And then there's one in the south with seven legions who's meant to be bottling up Hannibal. So the guy in charge of the northern legions, I read in your notes, Tom, he is called Marcus Livius Salenitor. And he is, and I quote from your notes, "A gloomy eccentric with terrible personal hygiene." I assume that all eccentrics have bad personal hygiene. How does his poor personal hygiene manifest itself, would you say?

• 46:47Tom Holland?

  He's feeling very hard done by, and so as a protest, he has refused to wash or cut his hair. And so he's notorious for his body odor.

• 46:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's no way to inspire your men. And what about the guy in the south? The guy in the south is a member of the Claudian dynasty, one of the oldest and most prestigious dynasties. So he's called Gaius Claudius Nero, and he is beautifully groomed, is he?

• 47:07Tom Holland?

  Yeah, not a hint of body odor.

• 47:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  These two blokes, perhaps because of their dispute about grooming, despise each other.

• 47:13Tom Holland?

  They absolutely loathe each other, and so this is obviously a potential worry. I mean, will they be able to team up? But in the event, the contacts that exist between these two consuls turn out to be much more secure than the communication links between Hasdrubal and Hannibal. So Hasdrubal obviously is desperate to rendezvous with his elder brother and find a point where they can kind of meet up and combine their forces. And so he inevitably, you know, who are you going to turn to when you want to deliver a message? Obviously in Numidians. So he gets a bunch of Numidians, supplements them with a few Gauls, writes out a message. And this message is, "Meet in Umbria." And he sends the Numidians and Gauls off. And why Umbria?

• 47:57Tom Holland?

  Well, this was the region where Hannibal had won at Lake Trasimene. It's in northern Italy. It's on the way from the foothills of the Alps towards Rome. And this suggests that the Carthaginian plan was for the two brothers, once they had met up, to march directly on the capital and force the Romans to face them in battle. Because up to this point, the Romans, of course, had been avoiding meeting Hannibal in battle. And I think that, you know, their aim is, we will stake everything on a single throw. But obviously for this to happen. Hasdrubal's message has to reach Hannibal. And the problem is that it doesn't, because it falls into the hands of Nero,

• 48:41Tom Holland?

  the beautifully groomed Claudian consul, whose job it is to bottle up Hannibal in the south. And when he gets this message and reads it, he reacts as Hannibal would have done in his sandals, with boldness and with an incredible display of initiative. So what Nero does is to trick Hannibal into thinking that he is still with his legions. He does this while he is simultaneously siphoning off a very substantial body of infantry. And he then marches with this body of infantry at incredible speed northwards, towards where Salinata is refusing to have a wash.

• 49:23Tom Holland?

  And as he marches, he is joined along the way by enthusiastic volunteers. So that by the time he reaches Salinata's camp on the 22nd of June, he is bringing a very, very large body of men to join the six legions under Salinata's camp. And Hasdrubal has no idea at all that Nero has arrived, until he hears in the morning, not the one blast of the trumpet that signals the presence of a consul, but two.

• 49:56Tom Holland?

  And this indicates to him that there are two consuls with their armies facing him. And you can imagine, I mean, his heart, his heart must have turned to ice. And so he thinks, oh, God, this is terrible. I can't, you know, I'm going to be annihilated if I meet them. And so he tries to withdraw. But he has a problem because his line of retreat is blocked by a river called the Matarus. And so he leads his men, they're kind of stumbling through the marshy banks of the Matarus, trying to find a fording place. And as they're doing this, they're set upon by the Romans. And the battle is lost almost before it had begun. Now, it's true that the defeat was actually, I mean, it wasn't total.

• 50:39Tom Holland?

  Had Hasdrubal survived, had he been able to lead his men and cross the Matarus and withdraw to the foothills of the Alps, I mean, he would entirely have been able to carry on the fight. But Hasdrubal dies in the thick of the fighting. I mean, he's very brave, but I think he's a bit stupid to have done that. Polybius says that he displayed in his death a fortitude and an ability of spirit worthy of his family name. But I don't think he displayed the shrewdness that Hannibal would have done in his situation, because his plunging into the thick of the melee essentially dooms his army and therefore, in the long run, as we will see, dooms Hannibal. Now, when Hannibal had defeated the Romans at Cannae,

• 51:21Tom Holland?

  they had killed one of the commanders, a guy called Imilius Paulus, and Hannibal had shown the corpse of Paulus great respect. You know, he had not desecrated it. Nero and Salinata, when they find the body of Hasdrubal, do not show it a matching respect. They cut off its head, and they put Hasdrubal's head into a sack, and then they give it to a horseman. And this horseman gallops southwards, reaches the outposts that surround Hannibal's camp, gallops up to one of these outposts, hurls the sack at the feet of Hannibal's guards in this outpost, turns, wheels, and gallops away. And the sack is brought to Hannibal,

• 52:05Tom Holland?

  and Hannibal opens it, and he pulls out the severed head of his brother. And we are told that he mourns his brother, but that staring into his dead brother's features, he also mourns his city. And he cries out, we are told, "Now, at last, I see the doom of Carthage Plain." This is the moment, I think, when Hannibal knows that probably the game is up.

• 52:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  But not quite up, because, okay, he's not going to be getting reinforcements from Iberia, but the Romans are still, they're so wary of his enormous military reputation, they don't confront him in open battle. So he actually now heads even further south, doesn't he, away from Rome, into the heel of Italy, into what's called Berutium, and that's the area that he can hold most easily if the Romans are coming after him. Him. He also, of course, does have a brother left. He has Mago back in, um, in Spain. And if you're Hannibal, you are probably thinking, well, if Mago can defeat Scipio in Spain, if he can win back the loyalty of the Iberians who've gone over to the Romans, if, who knows?

• 53:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  Maybe Mago can recapture New Carthage. Maybe he can raise a new army. Maybe he can send reinforcements to Italy. So.

• 53:26Tom Holland?

  Quite a lot of ifs.

• 53:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, there's a lot of ifs in any war. Unfortunately, not all of these ifs work out to Hannibal's advantage, do they?

• 53:34Tom Holland?

  I mean, we said Mago is a very good general. He's very, very dashing and very competent. I mean, his problem is, for the first time, he is facing a Roman general who essentially is as able and inventive as Hannibal himself. And Scipio essentially is going to crush all Hannibal's hopes because he is going to demolish the Carthaginian Empire in Spain. So in the spring of, of 206, he has cornered Mago at a place called Elipo, which is north of what's now Seville. And they meet in battle and alongside Mago is Massanissa, who's no longer a prince by this point, but a king because his, um, his father died a few months before. And so he is now the

• 54:19Tom Holland?

  leader of this kind of federation of Numidian tribes called the Maesulians. So he is, you know, I mean, he's now a very, very big player for the Carthaginians, not just a great commander, but an allied king. And so Mago and Massanissa, I mean, they must have been hopeful that they would be able to defeat Scipio. Mago would back himself. Uh, he knows that the Romans have always been kind of powerless against the Numidians. But no, doesn't turn out at all. Actually, they find the battle that, um, Scipio now forces on them. I mean, to put it mildly, a very, very bruising experience. So first, Massanissa's Numidian horsemen, you know, these great, great

• 54:59Tom Holland?

  cavalrymen, that's swatted aside by Scipio's cavalry. So people will remember that, uh, when Scipio captured New Carthage, he'd insisted on lots of drill, lots of practice.

• 55:12Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes.

• 55:12Tom Holland?

  And this is now paying off because essentially he has transformed his cavalry into the best horsemen that Rome has ever had. And they just, you know, they, they swat Massanissa and his horsemen aside. There's then a stalemate, but one day passes, another day passes, another day passes. Mago's concentration drops and this is the moment when Scipio attacks and Mago, who we said had been, you know, he's a veteran of Cana, he'd stood in the lines alongside Hannibal. He now finds that he is the one who is being outflanked and enveloped by a smaller army. And Scipio has the winning of the battle. And although both Mago and Massanissa are able to escape the slaughter,

• 55:54Tom Holland?

  Mago's army, which was the last effective force left him in Iberia, is wiped out. I mean, to give Mago credit, he still doesn't give up. So first of all, he, he tries to do a Scipio and launch an attack on New Carthage. In his case, it doesn't work. He gets beaten off. He then sails away. He founds a new naval base on the island of Majorca in the Balerics, which to this day bears his name, Mahon. And this apparently is where mayonnaise was invented. So, so in a way, mayonnaise is named after Mago. I think it's the only popular condiment.

• 56:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's a condiment, really? I was just thinking, is it a condiment?

• 56:33Tom Holland?

  Well, if it's not a condiment, I don't know what it is. It's not a sauce, is it?

• 56:36Dominic Sandbrook?

  It can be used as both, but it's, I think mayonnaise is more than, it's, it contains multitudes.

• 56:41Tom Holland?

  It's something you'd have in your fridge. And it's probably the only thing you'd have in a fridge that's named after a Carthaginian general. So it's kind of interesting detail. Anyway, so he, he's still on the scene. And then in 205, he launches a very ambitious invasion of northern Italy. You know, he takes ships, he takes men, he captures Genoa. So that's quite a feat. And he manages to hold out there against the Romans for three years. There's an indecisive battle. He gets wounded. The Carthaginians summon him back to his home city and on the trip, he dies. So an energetic end, but that's the end of Mago. And what about Massanissa? Well, for him, the days of fighting the Romans are now over. Because this is the moment in the wake of Scipio's great victory at Ilipa,

• 57:24Tom Holland?

  that he makes contact with the Roman victor. And the result is the meeting described by Livy, the homoerotic summit with which.

• 57:35Tom Holland?

  We began this episode because Massinisus is basically like the Iberians. I mean, he has no interest in fighting for a losing side. And it's very clear to him by this point that the Carthaginians have no future whatsoever in Iberia. And so he, you know, contacts Scipio, they get on tremendously well. And with Scipio's blessing, he returns to Africa there to secure his rule as king, because this other rival king Siphax is still on the scene. So he needs to sort that out. And Scipio, by sending Massinisus, now a Roman ally, to Africa, is obviously looking ahead, because the only way that

• 58:14Tom Holland?

  the war ultimately can be ended is if the Romans can take the war to Carthage itself.

• 58:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  And in late 206, Scipio returns to Rome, doesn't he? And he is now a real star. He's had tremendous achievements in the battlefield. He's glamorous, he's charismatic, he's got his exciting long hair, and he is determined to win the prize that will confirm all this, which is the consulship.

• 58:43Tom Holland?

  Yeah, even though he's only 30, and legally you have to be 40 to become a consul.

• 58:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  So he gets the consulship and he is allocated province, a very rich strategically important province that will be his once he has finished his consulship, and that is Sicily. And the command in Sicily comes not just with boots on the ground, i.e. the legions, but it comes with a fleet of 30 warships. So this is what he needs.

• 59:10Tom Holland?

  And on top of that, Dominic, crucially, he is given permission by the Senate, and I quote, "to cross to Africa if he judged it to be in the interests of the Republic." But the big question, will Scipio judge it to be in the interests of the Republic? To cross the sea, to invade Africa, and to attack the Carthaginians in their very backyard?

• 59:36Dominic Sandbrook?

  There is only one way to find out. So if you're a member of the Rest is History Club, and you want to find out whether Scipio will indeed cross to Africa and launch the final assault on the Carthaginians, you can find out right now, because if you're a member of that club, you can hear episode three, and indeed, episode four of this series instantaneously. If you're not a member of the club, you'll have to wait, gnawing at your nails like Gordon Brown in the aftermath of the financial crisis. But either way, the Punic Wars will continue and they will reach a devastating, heart-stopping climax. Tom, thank you very much. Goodbye, everybody. Bye bye.

• 1:00:21Speaker 03

  Okay, so here's a glimpse of what's to come. If it sparks something unexplainable, then you can join us every Tuesday and Thursday for new episodes of The Rest is Science, and we'll figure it out together.

• 1:00:31Speaker 04

  You mentioned earlier that a cup of water is like a rock smoothie, right? Because you've got rocks dissolved in it, magnesium and calcium. I would go a step further, though, and say that a glass of water is actually just a glass of lava.

• 1:00:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:00:48Speaker 04

  Because I've talked about this before, and I bring it up whenever I can. Ice is a rock.

• 1:00:55Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:00:56Speaker 04

  Because, well, hold on. Ice is a mineral. Because a mineral is just an inorganic material that is solid and has a definite crystal structure, which ice does. Water is important for life, but it's inorganic, actually. It would exist here whether there was life or not. And what that then means is that a cube of ice is made of a mineral, so it's a monomolecularic rock. So melted ice is molten rock, lava. So water is lava.

• 1:01:32Speaker 03

  I'm here for this.

• 1:01:32Speaker 04

  And this is not a joke. Ice won the Mineral Cup back in 2015, I believe. Like, some geologists all voted on their favorite mineral, and ice finally got the recognition it deserves.

• 1:01:42Speaker 03

  Got the prize.

• 1:01:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  I mean, sure, I'm happy with that classification. If the rock people say it so, then I'm happy with it. They also move the same way. I mean, when lava gets spurted out of a volcano, it uses the way that it moves and behaves is exactly the same.

• 1:01:58Speaker 04

  Well, like the fluid dynamics of lava.

• 1:01:59Speaker 03

  The fluid dynamics of lava is the same as water at that stage, yeah. A bit later on, when it cools down, then it's a...

• 1:02:06Speaker 04

  Is it more like ice?

• 1:02:08Speaker 03

  More like ice. There's a transition phase where it's more like toothpaste, where it needs a certain amount of sheer forces in order for it to flow.

• 1:02:14Speaker 04

  But that would be analogous to like slush, maybe?

• 1:02:16Speaker 03

  Maybe, yeah.

• 1:02:19Speaker 05

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