Ann Summers CEO: The Heartbreaking Story Of One Of Britain’s Richest Women: Jacqueline Gold CBE

Jacqueline Gold has been the CEO of AnnSummers for over thirty years, and we think after listening to this you’ll understand why she’s an inspiration to people everywhere. Taking over AnnSummers in 1987, she is now one of the richest people in the UK, and is worth over £400 million. At the beginning of her CEO journey, no one saw what she saw, that women might be interested in sex. Taking over a company run by and for men, AnnSummers and the sex industry was transformed by empowering a new audience, women. Female empowerment remains at the heart of everything she does. Jacqueline has had to overcome a lot of demons and obstacles in her life, but the attitude she’s employed to tackle these is nothing short of incredible. Jacqueline is an example of the power of approaching life with optimism and generosity, no matter what it throws at you. Follow Jacqueline: Twitter - https://twitter.com/Jacqueline_Gold Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jacquelinegoldcbe Donate to Breast Cancer Now, a charity Jacqueline is an ambassador of - https://secure.breastcancernow.org/appeal/donate Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I know what I've done has been culture changing and I'm super proud of that. All hell would kick loose if that happened today. I was poisoned by my nanny. I've had a bullet through the post. It was so important to me not to feel like a victim. You know, anybody that's listening will not know the crusade that I've been on.

• 0:17Steven Bartlett?

  I don't really know what to say. Honestly, I feel speechless.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, gosh, it is hard. I was diagnosed with breast cancer. When I spoke to the consultant, he said, it's not curable, but it is treatable.

• 0:38Steven Bartlett?

  Jacqueline Gold, she is one of the most successful business women in Europe. She's also one of the wealthiest women in the UK. And she's certainly one of the most inspiring people I have ever, ever met. Just remarkable. But her road to success is one of the most devastatingly misfortunate, tragic, heartbreaking roads I think we've ever heard travelled on this podcast. Imagine me speechless. This podcast made me speechless, not once, not twice, but over and over again. She is and has been the CEO of Anne Summers for decades.

• 1:19Steven Bartlett?

  A company that, if you don't know, is known for popularising sex toys, dismantling the unhealthy archaic stigmas around sex, and starting a crusade to make sex a more widely accepted part of all of our lives. But her story twists and it turns. The lessons, the courage, the resilience, the heartbreak, the pain. This should be a movie. You just couldn't make it up. Jacqueline, thank you for your honesty. Thank you for your courage and thank you for the inspiration. I know that it will stay with me for a lifetime. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 2:06Steven Bartlett?

  I really hate when podcasts are quite predictable. However, I've noticed that in my podcast, I've continued to start in a very similar place. And it's, I can't get away from it. And the place that I always tend to start is about the person that sat in front of me's early years and how those early years have shaped them. And as I was reading about your story, I actually read that you'd said that. I read that you'd said your early adversity heavily shaped who you are today and who you became and influenced the career journey you took. So I have to start there and I feel like I always start there. But can you tell me about that early adversity that you're talking about?

• 2:44Speaker 00

  Yes, I can. I had a really unconventional and challenging childhood. My parents split up when I was 12. My sister was a lot younger than me. She was seven years younger than me. So it didn't impact her in the same way as it impacted me. I found it, it was quite traumatic. I actually stayed down a year at school because of the impact it had on me. And at the same time, my mother moved in with her boyfriend, who sexually abused me between the age of 12 and 15.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  You know, and that combined with a mother who was overprotective, you know, wouldn't let me or my sister just do anything and play in the normal way. You know, we weren't allowed to go to sleepovers or parties or anything like that. But then when it came to this abuse, which I believe she knew about, you know, we were left in the most vulnerable situations. You know, she was quite a complicated woman. And, you know, we were in a, a pretty tough situation.

• 4:09Speaker 00

  So for me, later in life, in fact, I say later in life, I probably was about 15. You know, finding financial independence was really important to me because that was my escape.

• 4:25Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. It's hard to, it's hard to imagine a parent knowing about, about that, especially as you say, one that was so risk adverse, was so keen to keep you in the house, to not let you outside because you might fall into a dangerous situation, but would turn a blind eye to that?

• 4:50Speaker 00

  I mean, you know, I've tried to rationalize this myself numerous times because she was, she was quite ill in her later years, so I didn't challenge her. I just felt she was, and even in her earlier years, I just felt, I always felt she was very vulnerable herself. You know, just, she, she once said to me, if I could live in the middle of a field with no one around me, I'd be happy. So she herself wanted to be protected in one sense, you know, she, she wouldn't even let my sister and I play in the front garden in case we

• 5:29Speaker 00

  were kidnapped. I mean, it was, you know, totally irrational and yet stayed with a man. You know, I remember overhearing her on a, in a phone conversation with her sister after he'd returned after a year's break. And I remember hearing her say, yes, I know he's a bastard, but, you know, I, I don't want to be on my, my own. It was just a toxic, you know, a toxic relationship, a toxic environment. And I, and, you know, I, I have forgiven her. But I feel very sad for, for her and, and, and the life that she lived.

• 6:16Steven Bartlett?

  Did she ever admit to knowing that her partner was abusing you?

• 6:20Speaker 00

  No.

• 6:22Steven Bartlett?

  Did you ever ask her?

• 6:24Speaker 00

  I didn't ask her, but there were many occasions when I called out for help. Um, and a couple of occasions that she either witnessed or overheard me telling someone, you know, I was told off for telling lies. Even my aunt has later told me that she saw something going on. She told my mum about it, who played it down. So there were lots of situations where it was clear to me that she would have known.

• 6:56Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know much about her upbringing? And what my, and what um

• 7:02Steven Bartlett?

  the early sort of experiences that shaped her?

• 7:05Speaker 00

  No, I mean, I, I think that, I mean, my grandmother was lovely. Um, my grandfather was an authoritarian. Um, you know, her sister grew up,

• 7:20Speaker 00

  you know, perfectly well, but she, she was very, was, was very insecure. Beautiful woman, you know, very elegant, but you're scared of life.

• 7:33Steven Bartlett?

  And your younger sister, you've got a younger sister?

• 7:35Speaker 00

  I have, yeah, she's uh seven years younger than me. Fantastic business woman, great people person and somebody who really, you know,

• 7:48Speaker 00

  I admire her so much, Vanessa. We have a great relationship and she's funny and engaging and yeah, I mean, she's my best friend.

• 7:58Steven Bartlett?

  You grew up in the same household with her, but you turn out to be very different people and you're only a couple of years apart because you talked there about at the very start about how just being a couple of years apart in those early years experiences, even if you're in the same household, can create two completely different people. Cause they both experienced very, very different things because of age. And I, I really resonated with that because um like even in my, in my childhood, my family became on the verge of bankruptcy when I was um, old enough to know what was going on. But my older brothers and sisters, and also when I was probably most influential, so, so sort of easily influenced. Like adversity showed up in my childhood when I was, when I was of like the ripest of ages.

• 8:44Steven Bartlett?

  And so I'm very, very different from my brothers and sisters. And I kind of felt that from what you said there, the difference between you and Vanessa was just a couple of years off. But you experienced very different things in those early years.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Yes, I think Vanessa was also a bit more outspoken than me. And I think that, you know, as a child, maybe it was because of the way my mother was and the fact that, you know, for my first seven years of life, I was an only child. And I don't know, but I was very, I was very shy. And I remember my mother used to, if we went on a beach holiday, she used to draw a circle in the sand, put me in the middle, and I wasn't allowed outside that circle. So I, I never really had opportunities to make friends

• 9:40Speaker 00

  with other children and engage with adults. I was, I always felt quite lonely bizarrely. Whereas I think the second child always, you know, has it easier, in my opinion, as I keep reminding my sister. And so, you know, she just was that much more confident, that much more outspoken. So I don't think she was ever, you know, likely to be a, a target. I'm not saying she wasn't, but because we, we haven't spoken about it. But I think she's less likely to have been a target of, of abuse than I was.

• 10:23Steven Bartlett?

  You've never spoken about it?

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Well, we have spoken about it, but I don't think she wants to, she just doesn't want to talk about her experience.

• 10:30Steven Bartlett?

  Fine.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  Which is, which is, you know, I respect that. And, you know, and everybody deals with adversity in different ways.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  And, you know, no matter how successful somebody is or privileged they may be, you know, it doesn't change, you know, the the challenges that we might experience along the way. And everybody deals with them in different ways. And for me, it was so important to me not to feel like a victim. I didn't want to feel like a victim. I hate the word. And that's not to say, you know, that other people handle it wrong. It's just for me. I just wanted to,

• 11:20Speaker 00

  I suppose, gain something from that bad experience, you know, whether it be proof that I can, you know, and actually I've experienced adversity throughout my life. I've I've been quite unfortunate, you know, in that way. Um, I, you know, I lost my son when he was six years old. Um, I was poisoned by my nanny. I've had a bullet through the post. So I've had a number of challenges subsequently to the childhood experience. But certainly, just going back to that, the childhood experience did, I believe, shape who I am today. I think it drove me to want to go out and work hard,

• 12:02Speaker 00

  uh, have that financial independence. You know, I was always curious, always talking to people, always looking for inspiration, I guess.

• 12:14Steven Bartlett?

  And so much of, and just thinking about that as well, so much of your work now, because I've, you know, I've been through your story multiple times and looked at the way that you've made your decisions. And so much of it is is centered on that idea of like empowerment and giving, you know, empowering people to be free from whatever their prisoner might be. And sometimes prisoner of society, sometimes it's social narratives, whatever else. But um, I've really, I deeply respect that about you. Because I read there was a day in your story where you

• 12:43Steven Bartlett?

  Confronted your abuser and that ended up being a really pivotal moment.

• 12:49Steven Bartlett?

  Could you tell me about that?

• 12:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  Gosh, it is hard.

• 12:55Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Going back and remembering.

• 12:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Those periods in time that you you just want to park away, but.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  I was fifteen.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  I'd been trying to plan how I was gonna do this for some time. But obviously you lacked the courage, you know, I was a very young fifteen year old as well.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  And.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  I didn't want to, you know, generate anger. I mean, he was the rouse that my mother used to have, the coercive control that I witnessed. Made me want to make this as.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  You know, as easy as possible. So. In my childish way, I decided to. Tell him it wasn't fair on mum. So. It was, I was trying to, I mean, is this something we do as? As girls, I think girls are brought up to be helpful and to please people please and. This is, you know, I'm sure we're coming on to empowerment, but that was the. You know, that was the problem. I was brought up to be well behaved and to be a people pleaser and take John up a cup of tea and. You know, he likes you and this, all this type of.

• 14:23Steven Bartlett?

  Stay inside your circle.

• 14:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  So for me, the best way to handle this was to. Help him not lose face or not feel bad or. So. And he, he just. He didn't really say anything. He just shrugged.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  And that was it. It was as easy as that and it never happened again. But I didn't. When I look back or if I was talking to my. You know, young self now.

• 15:01Speaker 00

  I didn't realise, you know, that I could stand up to him and that I was perhaps more powerful than I realised. I'm disappointed as an adult that I felt I had to approach it in the way I did, but then I forget that that, you know, I am an adult, I was a child then, and I was incredibly brave. You know, I could have done nothing and I did, I was able to bring it to an end. And, you know, whilst it's very difficult to forgive somebody

• 15:44Speaker 00

  that has put you through that much pain and trauma in your life, as a person, I have to take positives from anything negative that happens to me and everything that I've been through, that for me is how I survive. That's for me how I better my life, how I go on to better things. And, you know, I turn my focus to work and to ambition and being curious and learning different things and then just seeing this opportunity, which actually turned out to be a great opportunity to empower women. You know, a lot of people

• 16:27Speaker 00

  are, well, gosh, you went through that abuse, why would you go into something like this? But there was an opportunity there and, you know, fast forward, I mean, I'm 61 now, I was 21 when I started, so fast forward 40 years.

• 16:46Steven Bartlett?

  You're 25.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  You say all the right things.

• 16:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, but you do. Fuck it, you're 61. Fuck me. Mental. That's crazy.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  So I know what I've done has been culture changing and I'm super proud of that. I really am. And, you know, I've, you know, anybody that's listening that is 25 will not know the crusade that I've been on. For the last forty years, I mean, it's, you just wouldn't believe that you, you know, what you couldn't do and what you, what you couldn't do then, what you can, can do now. And the changes and attitudes of, you know, the generations of today compared to the generations then.

• 17:31Steven Bartlett?

  I really want to talk about that because I know you, you had some really tumultuous experiences going on that crusade. And I love, I love talking about shifting perceptions and also we've seen in our lifetime, how quickly a lot of perceptions have shifted around like equality and sexuality and gender. And the crusade that you, you know, led, I think is, is, has been a really important one. Probably more important than a lot of people realise. I wanted to pick up on one thing you said about you being shy.

• 18:00Steven Bartlett?

  You know, the, what you've gone on to do in your career and life and the crusade you've led is not one that would, you know, one would think would be led by a shy person. The person that I've met today doesn't seem to be a shy person necessarily to me. Seems to be one of conviction and confidence and belief. In hindsight, how did you go from being that shy person? That was kind of coddled at an early age by a mother that was risk averse. Drew a circle around you in the sand, didn't let you off the front garden to being the person you are today. What is it that, what is it that does that to somebody?

• 18:35Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think there's a few things around this because I don't think this is exclusive to me. I think a lot of women especially experience this. I think, well, first of all, I, I, I might be wrong, but I don't think we're born shy. I think it's our situational environment that creates that. And secondly, you can be shy but still have fire in your belly, which is what I had. You know, I had that ambition and that burning desire. And when you have that passion, you, you have to release it. You can't keep it inside just because you're shy. And I'm, I think there were many things that I did.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  You know, I remember in my very early twenties, holding a conference, my first conference for my army of, of sales ambassadors, which I had about 500 in my first year.

• 19:30Steven Bartlett?

  Fran Summers.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  Fran Summers, yes. And I held this conference at the Grand Hotel in Brighton.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  And I thought it was a great idea when I planned it because the whole idea is to engage with your teams and tell them about what you're doing and what your mission is and get everybody involved and on the journey. And it was sort of, you know, a few hours before I was going on stage, I was thinking, oh my God, what am I doing? Because this was like horror to me. I had no experience and I was, you know, absolutely terrified. But if you're talking about something that you are passionate about, I think it changes it. It's not the same as doing a best man's speech

• 20:20Speaker 00

  or, you know, getting up at school and doing your first speech. When you're talking about something that you really care about and that you live and breathe, once you get out there and you've got that first sentence out the way, I do think it changes you.

• 20:38Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Speaker 00

  And, you know, that's what it did for me. So I, I am a great believer that courage comes first and I've always had a lot of courage. And I think if you have the courage, eventually the confidence will come.

• 20:56Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. Yeah. So, yeah, from what you've said there, it's like the courage is creating, it's forcing you to create evidence for yourself.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's forcing you to step outside your comfort zone. And then we all know, anyone that's successful knows that when you do, great things happen.

• 21:11Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And your comfort zone then expands, becomes a bit bigger and then you step another and.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 21:16Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting. So you, you said there about work and you've always had that drive. When I was reading through your story again, I, I heard about you, one of the things your mum did allow you to do was to work. And so I was, I was thinking about the, the relationship work you then had in your life from a very early, from a very early stage. If, if work was the place that you were allowed to go to, to leave the home, then.

• 21:45Steven Bartlett?

  Was it was it an escape from home? Was it like a um the place of freedom in your life?

• 21:51Speaker 00

  It was so freedom. I mean, well, first of all, I can't tell you the countless times I'd asked her if I could go to a sleepover or a, you know, party or just things that normal kids do. And it was always no. Um. And there was another sort of form of abuse was this, they had, her and her husband had this, her new husband had this task mask, taskmaster approach to everything they did. And it was, you know, there was no end to it. You it's never like you could ever finish the tasks. And they were like digging the garden. Um. They weren't like cleaning the kitchen. They were like digging the garden,

• 22:35Speaker 00

  bringing logs up, you know, it was very, it was manual labour for my sister as well. And it was like these jobs will never get done. So we'll never be able to go out. It was a bit like Cinderella. As I'm telling the story, it sounds a bit like that.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  But she seemed to accept things that were traditional. So going to work was something, or getting a Saturday job is something that people do. So that was okay. So I couldn't get a bus into Bromley to meet up with friends, but I could get a bus into West Ham to go and work at the spinning wheel as a waitress.

• 23:16Steven Bartlett?

  So did you look forward to that?

• 23:17Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And of course, there weren't the rules then, you know, I was working at fourteen years old. I I worked in a bar at Big and Hill Airfield. I did waitressing. I worked in a hairdressing salon. So, um. Yeah, that that was a a release.

• 23:37Steven Bartlett?

  Did you try and work all the time, more and more hours, over time?

• 23:40Speaker 00

  And actually, it compromised my schooling because I I didn't really invest in my schooling. I just wanted to work. So I didn't go to college or university or. Anything that I expect my daughter will probably do now.

• 23:57Steven Bartlett?

  Was there, um, and I would, I do want to, to talk about some of these other points around empowerment, but was there any physical, and I don't think people think about this enough, but one of the things I've, I've got increasingly fascinated by was the connection between like psychological trauma and physical impacts. So the, on our physical health and how the two are somewhat interlinked. And was there any sort of physical symptoms or consequences of that psychological trauma that reared their head?

• 24:28Speaker 00

  So interesting you say that because I have a stalker and his mother many years ago, many years ago. And, and the impact was tinnitus. I had tinnitus.

• 24:40Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 24:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. And all through the, cause they, they caught them. It was, went to trial. They were, um, found guilty. I mean, it's, it's another, I mean, it's a crazy story. It's a crazy story.

• 24:55Steven Bartlett?

  Can you describe?

• 24:56Speaker 00

  Oh, so tinnitus is when you get the ringing in the ears.

• 24:58Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  But actually I just had this marching. It was a constant marching and it doesn't stop. So when you go to bed, you've got, you know.

• 25:05Steven Bartlett?

  I had it.

• 25:06Speaker 00

  Oh, did you?

• 25:07Steven Bartlett?

  So I know very few people will know what tinnitus is like unless you've had it because it sounds trivial. If I say to you, oh, it's just like a ringing in the ears or whatever. People go, oh, that's fine. Like I've been to a gig before my ears have run. But you get like day two into it and I, so I got tinnitus for, all right. So I go on Google. What's this ringing in my ears and why won't it stop? And it must've been about six years ago, seven years ago. And then you get into day three and you're losing your mind. And I'm on these forums and people are like, people commit suicide because of, because of it. And I, I kind of understood why.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:41Steven Bartlett?

  It was like a form of torture. Sleep, you wake up, it's constant. You're eating lunch, your ears are ringing and there's no end to it. There's nothing you can do to stop it. So fortunately, you know, talking about my experience with it, one day, I don't really know what happened, but your sinuses are connected to your ears. That's when I came to learn when I had tinnitus, tinnitus. And I think it must've been because my sinuses were blocked because on day nine of my ears ringing, it just stopped. And some people live with it for life.

• 26:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I was very fortunate. I think I had it for about three months and then it stopped. So I was very lucky. I mean, some people have to live it, live with it. Um, but mine was definitely brought on by. That awful experience and obviously the abuse I I did, I mean, I had severe, sorry to be graphic, but severe constipation that um I look back and I think was

• 26:39Speaker 00

  you know, brought on by my own trying to be in control behaviour. Just remembered, as you said that, I remember going to the doctors about it and blurting out to the doctor what was going on at home. And the doctor and I said, and I'm really worried because I've got a younger sister.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  And the doctor said to me, um, okay, do you want me to get social services involved? And I went, oh, no, no, no, no, because, you know, as a child, you think you're going to be in trouble, you think you're going to be taken away from your mum. And she said, okay, that was it.

• 27:13Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, fuck.

• 27:14Speaker 00

  I mean,

• 27:17Speaker 00

  I mean, all hell would kick loose if that happened today.

• 27:22Steven Bartlett?

  I don't really know what to say, honestly, I feel speechless. Because you just can't imagine an adult hearing that these days and and posing the question to you about next steps.

• 27:33Steven Bartlett?

  Just think that just seems unthinkable.

• 27:38Steven Bartlett?

  Perceptions have changed a lot, haven't they, around sexual abuse and um

• 27:43Steven Bartlett?

  and and and also victim blaming, which I think was was a was a really destructive habit that society had, which fuelled the problem, not having a safe environment to to speak, thinking that you'd be blamed or, you know.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  Hmm, absolutely. I think they're still our challenges. I don't think this is a problem that's gone away just because we're all more vocal. And I did a a project recently and just going off piece for a moment, I was quite surprised about consent. And I I I did a workshop on consent and. I think there's a lot that we don't know, we don't realise. And I did a piece around talking to university students and, you know, some girls go to university expecting to be assaulted. So I do still think there is a lot, a lot more

• 28:40Speaker 00

  education that's needed. And maybe that's because I'm the mum of a 12 year old daughter. So things like that sort of resonate with me more.

• 28:49Steven Bartlett?

  I've got to be honest, I completely agree. And I think as a man, there is a tonne of education that we need to understand this topic from the other side of the spectrum as well, because a lot of my friends find themselves in a place, my male friends, where they are like naive and they know they're naive to what consent means.

• 29:14Speaker 00

  I really agree with that. I really agree with that. And I think that, I just think there should be more emphasis in schools. We should be talking about consent more. Interestingly, when I did this project, I met a trans man. And he was telling me that when he was a woman, he experienced certain attention, unwanted attention, and obviously saw it from a female point of view. And then when he transitioned to a man, he was just blown away by some of the things that he was hearing from a man's point of view. So, yeah, that, that was quite enlightening and interesting.

• 29:58Steven Bartlett?

  Those are the conversations we need to be having for sure, for sure. You, you said that, you talked earlier on about how, you know, hard times shape you. And, you know, it's clear that from everything you've said, that resilience is one of your superpowers. I've, I've, I've actually had, had that written a few times when people talk about you. What does that mean to you, resilience?

• 30:21Speaker 00

  I think that's true. I, I think I am a resilient person. I think for me,

• 30:29Speaker 00

  The battle is won before the war has even started. So, for example, I was diagnosed in 2016 with breast cancer. I remember my husband and my sister, when they were first told the news, I could tell they'd been crying. And I'm saying, come on, guys, you know, I need your support here. You know, we need to put a strategy together. We've got to put a plan together because that is how, that's my mindset. My mindset has always been that way. There's got to be a solution to this. You know, there's got to be something better that can come from this. It was a brutal journey. Um, there is no doubt about that. Um,

• 31:12Speaker 00

  but I remember saying things to myself, like, when I have my next scan, the cancer's going to be gone.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  And when I had my next scan in the January, it had gone. Or it wasn't on the scan. I then had an operation in the, in the July, I think it was, a lumpectomy. And I was told I was all clear and that there was a one, naught point one percent chance it would come back because I'd had such a good response to treatment.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  Unfortunately, I was in that naught point one percent and it did return a couple of years later. And I had a mastectomy. And when I spoke to the consultant, he said, it's not curable, but it is treatable.

• 32:07Speaker 00

  Uh, because it's now gone from stage two to stage four, which was, you know, which was devastating to hear. And of course, I, I immediately said to him, well, um, you know, what are the chances of it being cured? I know you're saying it, it's not curable, but we've all heard of people, oh, yes, but you know, that's naught, naught, naught point one percent. And my attitude is, well, if anyone's going to be, that naught point one percent is going to be me. Because. I have to think like that. That's what helps drive me forward and get me out of these situations. If I could have been that naught point one percent where it went wrong, I can be that naught point one percent where it goes brilliant.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  And actually, I'm right now in what they call excellent remission. So, you know, I'm still got my, I still have ambitions for more, but I am feeling blessed at where I am. And I think that has a lot to do with with my outlook on life. And that's the learning, you know, when nobody wants to wish this, you know, serious illnesses or life threatening illnesses on ourselves. But for me, I have to find the opportunity in that. Well, where's, where's the good thing? Where's the opportunity? Well, it has made me live a much healthier life. You know, I do appreciate things so much more, you know, I am a different person. I put, you know, my priorities have changed.

• 33:33Speaker 00

  I love the female empowerment side of what I do, and I want to invest more time in that. I think this is far more important to me. And I think finding your passion is so

• 33:44Speaker 00

  so vital, whether you're going through health issues or not, in everything that you do.

• 33:49Steven Bartlett?

  That bias towards optimism that you describe, like, you know, it sounds like you could be thrown in any sort of situation and you'd be looking at the, as you say, like the zero point one percent chance of a positive outcome. That's a really, really remarkable thing, right? And you've, you know, you've been the CEO of a tremendous company. You'll, you'll be able to look at your organization and see those people in your organization that have that same bias to optimism. When all goes wrong, pandemics show up out of nowhere. They have that bias towards optimism, which is we can. And, you know, like, it doesn't even matter if we can't, because all we can focus on is we can. That's the only choice we have. But you've also probably seen the negatives, the other side of that, right?

• 34:31Steven Bartlett?

  And I guess my question to you is like, from what you've seen in your organization and, you know, even in your life, how important is that? And how costly is the antithesis of that?

• 34:44Speaker 00

  Oh gosh, there's a few answers to that. First of all, in my personal life, the first thing that comes to mind is my daughter. So when she was in junior school, every morning without fail, as she left, I, my husband would take her to school and I would say, "I can", and she would shout back, "I know I can". So we did that every morning and I didn't want her to grow up having the, that feeling of lacking in confidence and being so painfully shy. I just wanted to empower her as much as I possibly can. So it was just, that's just a little thing I used to do. I think, you know, the pandemic is a

• 35:25Speaker 00

  really good example. I mean, I remember, I mean, at our peak, we had 146 stores. You know, over the years, obviously more people are going online. We've reduced our, our store portfolio. And then of course, the pandemic, anyone having leases had to negotiate with their landlords and, you know, we had to suddenly be told that all of your stores had to be closed. I mean, I never, I can never forget that moment. It was heartbreaking actually, because it was like my baby, you know, to suddenly be told that was incredible. And then of course, you, you're thinking, how am I going to tell my teams? We value

• 36:08Speaker 00

  our people so much. And this was how we're going to talk them through what's, you know, the plan. Because we had to make difficult decisions, we had to let people go. But bringing those people on that really difficult journey was so important. Talking to them regularly, reassuring them, telling them what our plans were, how we were going to get through this.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Was, it was incredible, actually. And, yes, we all worked really hard. Everybody worked so hard, but they achieved things I never thought we as a business could achieve. I mean, our sales ambassadors, you know, went from four thousand to twenty thousand in three months.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  Because we were doing a fantastic job. I mean, you may say differently, but I think we were doing a fantastic job on social, engaging with our customers and, you know, keeping the conversations going and being relevant in what was going on. And you won't be surprised that we completely sold out of penis pasta.

• 37:16Steven Bartlett?

  Penis? Sorry, one second.

• 37:20Steven Bartlett?

  Take a ad break there for penis, no.

• 37:24Steven Bartlett?

  Penis pasta.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 37:26Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 37:27Speaker 00

  All, all the supermarkets sold out of pasta and we were pushing pasta and toilet rolls. We were pushing our penis pasta, which is pasta shaped like penis.

• 37:38Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  We were doing, and still are, doing some amazing things. It was a very creative time.

• 37:45Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. Very innovative, forced innovation.

• 37:48Speaker 00

  Very creative and innovative.

• 37:51Steven Bartlett?

  You started working at Ann Summers when you were nineteen?

• 37:53Speaker 00

  I did, yes.

• 37:54Steven Bartlett?

  How did that happen?

• 37:56Speaker 00

  So I was working at Royal Dalton. I had no, I had no business experience. I had retail experience. But it wasn't, you know, Royal Dalton is a fantastic brand, but it was too quiet. And I wanted a much buzzy environment. They offered me management, but I, you know, it wasn't really what I wanted to do. So I was creative as well. So I wanted, I guess there was that creativity.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  And I. I worked at Anne Summers, which was my father's business at the time. And they were, he had sex shops and a mail order business. Which was like literally tearing a coupon out of a magazine and posting off what you wanted. I was only working there for work experience and I was invited to a Tupperware. Well, it wasn't Tupperware, it was Pippa D, but it was sort of like Tupperware style party. And it was clothes and it was in a council flat in southeast London in Thamesmead. And I remember driving there in my mustard coloured Mini.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  I was just, you know, just these two women invited me, they knew what I did and I was just a guest. And they were showing around the clothes and then somebody got. I do remember actually having to draw a picture of my husband's meat and two veg on a piece of paper on top of my head. And I was sort of thinking, this is not how I imagine my career starting. But it's, it's an interesting story. And it was women at the party sort of knew I worked at Anne Summers and said, look, why don't you do Anne Summers parties? We want to, we'd love to be able to spice up our sex lives, but we're too embarrassed to go into a sex shop. And I thought, actually, this is quite a good idea.

• 39:50Speaker 00

  So I got some of the toys and lingerie from our Tottenham Court Road store we had at the time. I held a few parties myself.

• 40:02Speaker 00

  And, and I remember guests at the party sort of passing the product round like this, because obviously it was switched on. And they were sort of excited, curious, but incredibly nervous at the same time. Whereas now, of course, they just want to know what sizes they come in, what speeds they are, it's completely different.

• 40:23Speaker 00

  But they were having fun, they were enjoying themselves, that they were talking about their relationships. You know, they were. Just being open and relaxed and candid and I just thought this, this is something completely different. I've never seen anything like this. You don't, even women's magazines aren't this candid. It was that point I thought if this, if I go forward with this, it's going to be for women only. You know, you're just not going to get that same atmosphere with, with men and also a mixed group. I just thought women would feel uncomfortable. There'd be other partners' husbands there. You're showing personal product. This isn't,

• 41:05Speaker 00

  this isn't going to work. And I think that was actually one of the best decisions I made. So of course today, it's sort of like a, a female institution, but we had at that time, there was, I think, 10% of women going in the stores. And I remember taking this idea to the board, walking down this sort of what felt like this long corridor into this room full of all men, all middle aged, all in grey suits, and telling them about this party I'd been to and these parties that I'd held. And, you know, we, we need to do something different. We should do Ann Summers parties. I had no business experience,

• 41:47Speaker 00

  by the way, just all from the heart. And I remember one businessman at the meeting, Ron Coleman, he's dead now, so I can't talk about him. He stood up and he threw his pen down on the table and said, well, this isn't going to work, is it? Women aren't even interested in sex. So I instantly thought, well, actually, this has got a lot more to do about your sex life than it has about my idea.

• 42:12Steven Bartlett?

  Wow.

• 42:13Speaker 00

  And, you know, luckily, they agreed to, to invest in some advertising. So I was advertising in the Evening Standard.

• 42:27Speaker 00

  Once a week, and I wasn't allowed to put erotic parties, I had to put exotic. And I couldn't say ladies only because of all the rules. But I used to hold like a seminar once a week at Strand Palace Hotel. And I'd go up there, meet with people that had seen the advert, probably about 25 people in the room, talk to them about my idea. Obviously, the men I had to ask leave, some would actually get up and leave themselves. They, you know, it was, nothing had been done like this before. And I remember, I still remember having those conversations and I remember, remember one couple, it was two women, wanted to do the parties together.

• 43:11Speaker 00

  Boardhousewives living in Chelsea, not the demographic people would necessarily expect. And then all of a sudden, people were popping up, groups of people were popping up in different areas. So I recruited the two girls in Chelsea, I recruited the eight women at the party in Thamesmead. Then what I would do is I would advertise in those area, areas, concentrate the advertising in those areas. And it really was self-propagating. Then later, when we decided to, right, we're ready now to open stores, reopen stores with a, through a female lens, it was like a, an induction into the brand. So, and it still is, I think, to a degree.

• 43:55Steven Bartlett?

  It's incredible. And it's something you said at the start there about being naive in business, I thought was really compelling because so much innovation seems to come from being naive.

• 44:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree. I had no experience, but that no experience forced me to rely on feedback from my customers. You know, something we don't always do enough of.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Because I had no choice and what I saw as a disadvantage actually turned out to be, you know, one of my and the, and the brand's main benefits because that's.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  In our DNA now, that's what we do.

• 44:31Steven Bartlett?

  It's really interesting. I've never heard a phrase like that, that you were, because you didn't have experience or a ton of knowledge, you were learning from feedback as opposed to like convention. Convention doesn't create new things. It's just more of the same.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you know, as a woman in business, I was only 21. I was quietly spoken, not how people would expect a business person to be. Alone, if you like, in the sex industry, as it was then. I don't sort of think of it that way now. There was so much negativity. So from business people, I would have comments. I remember one guy, I owned a chain of estate agents, saying to me, this isn't going to work. It's just a fad. Give it two years, you know, and I think people were so used to doing things how they'd always done them. And we know that, don't we? When we, and I'm moving on a few years, and it's okay to go off piste again.

• 45:31Steven Bartlett?

  No worries.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  You know, when you think of heritage brands like Woolworths, you know, doing things the way they'd always done things. That's why I say the pandemic, there were positives because it forced those companies that have done well to do things differently.

• 45:49Steven Bartlett?

  You talked about the phase in your business where you started opening these stores.

• 45:55Steven Bartlett?

  In that era, you know, if someone was to open a shop that was perceived as being just a sex shop in my neck of the woods, you know, when there was a huge amount of stigma towards it. Can't imagine people being so happy about that.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  It wasn't the people. It wasn't if you, if we wanted to go into a, I mean, I'll give you an example of loads of examples, but you know, Bromley. We really wanted a presence in Bromley Glade Centre. And I actually remember, you know, I was, I went with the landlords and the the centre and, you know, and they were going, right, well, you know, we could do it. We could do it if, if we change the, if you could change the name from Anne Summers. And there was. A a brand bias. There were many, you know, centre management that would say, over our dead body and.

• 46:51Steven Bartlett?

  So did someone send you a bullet in the post?

• 46:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:54Steven Bartlett?

  What the fuck? Why did they send you?

• 46:56Speaker 00

  Uh, God, I wanted to open a store in Dublin.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  The sales per um per head of parties were higher than they were in the UK. So I knew that um, you know, there was there was an appetite.

• 47:18Speaker 00

  And we'd found this site in O'Connell Street, which admittedly was a bit of a controversial location because it was right opposite the GPO building.

• 47:29Steven Bartlett?

  Which is GPO.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  And so, you know, it's where there were, you know, there was violence and clashes and the Dublin Corporation, which is the equivalent of our council, in fact, they might be called council now.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  Were email, uh, not emailing me, sending me letters, you know, putting me under pressure not to go ahead. Saying that they had another location, Backstreet, but I didn't want to be in the Backstreet. I wanted to be accessible. So they, um, in fact, it was me, I invited them over to the UK. I just wanted them to see our stores, to see that we weren't trying to shop people, that we, you know, we were trying to empower people, we were trying to make it comfortable for women, empower women in the bedroom. But despite showing them round and they they in the after, so during the morning, they were shown round by my retail director. In the afternoon, I invited them to a board meeting.

• 48:28Speaker 00

  And their names were Kieran and Alan. Kieran couldn't look at me. He sat, he sat there without any eye contact at all. Alan sat right next to me, right here, telling him every, you know, they were really good cop, bad cop. He's trying to tell me about his sex life and I said to them, look, you know, it's very clear, you have your own agenda, you're not going to change your mind. There's no, not much point in us carrying on here. And Alan said to me, his parting words were, well, I hope you'll understand that we cannot be held responsible for what might happen to you. Which was a very chilling thing to say.

• 49:08Speaker 00

  And there was loads of negative media because there was all this big hoo-hah about Ann Summers going to O'Connell Street. And I'd never done any media before and I was invited on The Late Late Show, which has sort of got a bit of a cult following.

• 49:27Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 49:27Speaker 00

  And I was, you know, really nervous about going on the show, but the producer took me out to dinner and said, it's gonna be great, you know, it's gonna be fine, you know, gave me lots of reassurance. So when I got there and I was sat in the green room, Michael Crawford was on before me. And for those that don't know, he was a legend, iconic comedian. I could hear him on stage, you know, comedian, so he was telling jokes and the audience were laughing. And I'm thinking, my God, what's it gonna be like when I go on, you know? So I went on and I sat on the stage. The presenter had a desk.

• 50:10Speaker 00

  I've sat, I was like at the headmistress's office, I'm telling you. I sat there and all the audience were, you know, it was a live audience, sort of tear shaped.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  He didn't interrupt introduction and then he then said, right, we'll get Alan to speak first. And I'm like, gosh, they never told me about this, that Alan's gonna be on the show.

• 50:32Steven Bartlett?

  Alan from the council.

• 50:33Speaker 00

  From the council, stood up at the front of the stage and then starts, you know, beating his chest, telling everyone why there shouldn't be an Ann Summers store in Dublin. And then, of course, it was my turn and I just told the story, pretty much how I told you about the sales at the parties.

• 50:53Speaker 00

  First of all, one woman at the very back, at the highest level, stood up and she's pointing down at Alan like this, don't you dare tell us where we can and can't shop. And it was fabulous because once one person did it, others did it. And despite us being served a writ on the first day of opening,

• 51:13Speaker 00

  the Dublin store is now in our top three performing stores and it's also on the tourist bus route. Which, you know, because of that story, which I think, you know, for me is great.

• 51:25Steven Bartlett?

  Served a writ.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  A writ, yeah. So we were taken to court. We won the court case, we got damages. Because they tried to stop us from opening.

• 51:35Steven Bartlett?

  And someone sent you a bullet in the post after the show?

• 51:37Speaker 00

  Oh, sorry. Yes, the bullet in the post that arrived anonymously, obviously, a week before I was due to fly out to Dublin.

• 51:48Steven Bartlett?

  And how did that feel?

• 51:53Speaker 00

  Very frightening, but I just felt I've I've had to deal with a lot of challenges within the business. A lot of preconceived ideas to me. I felt like I was being bullied and it was actually before before bullying was even a thing. But that's how I felt and I felt so strongly about what I wanted to do that nothing was going to stop me and I actually. I did get a somebody, a security person to meet me at the airport and, you know, that was, but that was about it. That's what I did.

• 52:31Steven Bartlett?

  You became CEO of Van Summers in what year was that? Do you remember?

• 52:35Speaker 00

  I don't. I was in my twenties still, I think.

• 52:39Steven Bartlett?

  Really? Becoming a CEO in your twenties is not easy.

• 52:45Steven Bartlett?

  Especially if you're going to be completely honest, especially if you're a woman, especially in that time, in that era, when there is so much discrimination.

• 52:53Steven Bartlett?

  Tell me about, because I also became a CEO in my twenties. Tell me about the discrimination that a woman CEO in that era experiences that I would not know about.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Well, there's two, as always, there's two answers to this question, if that's okay. The first one is about being.

• 53:17Speaker 00

  There were very few businesswomen, so about being a woman in business.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  You know, you'd meet somebody at a meeting and they would assume that your colleague, if they were a man, they would start talking to them. So there was that assumption. And I think there is a possibility that still goes on now. And actually, I, as you can tell, I'm quite, I'm only five foot one. I looked younger than I was at twenty one. And

• 53:49Steven Bartlett?

  Well, you're only twenty five now, so it's unbelievable.

• 53:51Speaker 00

  I was only two then. And my managing director was very tall, although she was a woman, she was very tall. So there is this bias that if you're, if you're short and female, that you can't possibly be running the business. But then I, I still have that now. So a few years ago, I was speaking, I was doing the keynote speak at the retail live show. And I was, I remembered I was interviewing Baroness Neville Rolfe on stage about her role in, in business and some of the challenges that we were experiencing, that the industry was experiencing. And I was just walking the boards, basically getting myself comfortable.

• 54:34Speaker 00

  Some guy came over and he said, I've still got, I've still not got my slides. I'm looking at him. He said, I'm on in half an hour and I've still not got my, I said, I'm, I'm speaking. Oh, and then he just walks off as if that's, oh.

• 54:49Steven Bartlett?

  Fucking hell.

• 54:50Speaker 00

  And, and, um, another example, I've got to tell you this one. I jump on the train at the last minute with a first class ticket.

• 54:58Steven Bartlett?

  I've been there.

• 54:59Speaker 00

  Have you?

• 55:00Steven Bartlett?

  I know exactly what you're gonna say.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  You know what I'm gonna say?

• 55:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 55:01Speaker 00

  I'm at London Bridge, all the city boys are sitting in there, the train is full. And I just, I'd just come down from Sheffield and just managed to get my connection. I was dressed casual. And I said to this guy, could, could you move over, could you just move over, please? So I can sit there. He said, have you got a first class ticket?

• 55:20Steven Bartlett?

  Ugh.

• 55:22Speaker 00

  And I looked at him and I said, you're kidding me, aren't you? He said, no, have you got a first class ticket? I said, I'm not answering that. And so he reluctantly moved over and I sat down, but he then carried on.

• 55:38Speaker 00

  And I'm saying, you know, this is sexist. How many other, how many of these city guys sitting in here have you asked?

• 55:48Speaker 00

  Then the guy next to me said, who's on the other side of the aisle, said, just show him your ticket. You know, we just started arguing, just show him your ticket. And the woman in front of me was doing this.

• 56:04Speaker 00

  I'm like, don't calm me down. Don't calm me down. And that's the problem. We need, you know, that's one of, when people say it's job done, it is not job done. It really isn't job done.

• 56:18Steven Bartlett?

  Those are the rare instances where you get to see it. But most of it, you don't get to see, right? Most of that discrimination is invisible because it will be small decisions compounding against you because of discrimination over decades and decades and decades. Those are the instances where you can go, hmm, that was clear prejudice because that was just me. I read that there was a bullying culture at Summers in early, I heard that.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  Oh, for me? Okay.

• 56:46Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, sorry. I thought you meant during my.

• 56:49Steven Bartlett?

  Not now. No, no, but that you, you kind of transformed that because you didn't like that.

• 56:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 56:56Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 56:56Speaker 00

  And again, that was before bullying was a thing. So we have a parent company called Gold Group International and that person worked in that part of the business. And, you know, and he wasn't the only person, there were others. And bullying was entertainment. In those days, there wasn't the open, the open culture that we have in businesses today. People wouldn't speak up. You know, they, they would assume they're not going to be listened to or, but I, you know, I knew it was going on and I thought this is, this is not.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  This is not how I want the business to be. So that was, that was actually very, very early on.

• 57:44Steven Bartlett?

  And you have a no sort of tolerance approach to that?

• 57:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I just don't, I get to hear about, you know, we're small enough that I get to hear about most things and that's not something I hear about. And if, if we did, we'd be all over it.

• 58:01Steven Bartlett?

  I asked, I asked all my guests this question, you know, you've built this tremendous business, it's hugely successful. And it's really, as you said, it's more than just a financial success because it's been a, almost like a social success. It's been a societal success because it's kind of led a perception shift. It's dismantled the stigma, which I think, as you've described from the atmosphere you describe at these early parties, was like liberating for people to be able to be open and speak freely about sexuality and sex. And which was to be at one point. But a consequence of, my point is the consequence of business success is financial success. And what role has that played in your, in the, in your life generally as it relates to your fulfillment?

• 58:46Steven Bartlett?

  And everything in between, financial success?

• 58:50Speaker 00

  I mean, obviously, financial success is something, you know, that as a society, I'm not saying as a, an individual, but as a society, we recognize as, you know, one of the elements of success. And, you know, certainly in my younger time, that was, you know, the more sales, the more bottom line. All of these things were symbols of success that I recognized. And I, I started the female empowerment almost from the day I started, but didn't realize it. So, or I didn't, I realized, but I didn't realize the relevance of it or the importance of it,

• 59:30Speaker 00

  or how groundbreaking it was going to be. You know, I wanted to create an environment that was for women. I could see why I wanted to do that. And I wanted women to feel safe. I wanted them to be open. As time has evolved, that passion for doing that has evolved, along with so many other things, you know, that to me is what gives me the pleasure, more than having nice clothes or whatever, you know, just the financial independence that I've given hundreds of thousands of women. You know, during lockdown, we had women earning thirty thousand pounds. We were giving out cheques of thirty thousand pounds a month, obviously not to everybody, but to our top

• 1:00:12Speaker 00

  performers. And it was like, who'd have thought we could be, we would be in a position to do that. I mean, that's, that was fantastic. Sexual empowerment for every woman became something that was really important to me. In the last ten years, you know, five years, that's, that's broadened even further to what we consider to be every woman. You know, our last campaign, for example, which I was at, our Halloween campaign, you know, we had trans, we had an amputee, we had slim girls, we had curved girls, we

• 1:00:52Speaker 00

  had models, we had customers, you know, involved in this campaign. And that is what every woman is. And that is something I really love. So, yeah, money is, money is nice because we, it makes us feel secure. It, it, we're able to treat ourselves, we're able to do nice things. You know, I feel I've worked really, really hard and, you know, I feel I'm, you know, it's nice, it's nice to have nice things and do nice things. And I feel very privileged. But for me, having that legacy, which is far more important

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  to me, that for me, female empowerment is, is what I stand for. And I want to put my stake in the ground and really own it.

• 1:01:44Steven Bartlett?

  I was thinking there as you talked a little bit about the pandemic. Much of the reason why I started this podcast was to highlight the more untold parts of like CEOs and professional people and successful people's journeys because a lot of it's glamorized these days and entrepreneurship is seen as quite a very aspirational thing to a younger generation who can create, you know, companies using their mobile phone now. But what was the, if when I say like the worst day in business, like what's the day that comes to mind for you? The hardest day?

• 1:02:16Speaker 00

  The hardest day was when Boris Johnson announced that all stores would have to close. Retail would have to close. There was no mention at that stage of furlough schemes, of rates holidays. You know, there was no mention of deals to be done with landlords or what the future held. I honestly was in shock that day.

• 1:02:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I can't imagine. I can't imagine that because I don't work in that industry. Just that the Prime Minister announcing that you have to close your business and not offering any kind of hope.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  And I, you know, and I went on, I mentioned to you earlier, I went on the, on the, on the retail calls and most companies, their, their, um, their level of cash was low. I mean, most companies, based on what we were offered at that time, was, you know, you, you didn't have more than three months cash. So then they of course brought out the Sybils loan, but I think it was 80% guarantee. We needed that to be 100% guarantee because there were so many, so many

• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  companies were refused credit because the banks were so scared. So that was, you know, you, you, you'd thrown a lifeline. And then, you know, we, we did this for about, it was about nine months of, of.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  You know, constantly being thrown lifelines that then didn't materialise or weren't applicable to you.

• 1:04:13Steven Bartlett?

  In those difficult moments, we turn to our partners in life, you know, they, you know, many occasions bear the brunt of that chaos at home. How's your, you know, talk to me about your home life and how you've, as a CEO of a business that's gone through things like that, how you've managed to maintain a healthy relationship with your husband throughout all of this, because I think I need some advice.

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  Well, do you know, it's interesting as you was asking the question because, and I'm definitely not judging here, I'm just saying that my, I mean, I have a wonderful marriage, I have a lovely husband, but when I was going through health issues, you know, let's say, you know, he wasn't the best, he tried, but it's a very, very difficult thing to go through. And it spurns up a lot of emotions. And I think there were times that he, he was brilliant and times that he didn't, you know, handle things as well. And I'm sure anybody listening would know, they've either been in this space or have been in my position.

• 1:05:23Steven Bartlett?

  Can I ask, because I don't want to make that mistake in my life, what was, what was missing in terms of?

• 1:05:28Speaker 00

  I think it's the emotional support.

• 1:05:30Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:05:31Speaker 00

  I think that's what men struggle with, perhaps in those situations. Because

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  I, and I think he's so used to me being strong, that's what it is. And he said that to me at the time, he is so used to me being strong and resilient, as you said earlier. And I was strong and resilient, but there was a vulnerability about me because obviously I was having, having treatment that was debilitating.

• 1:05:59Speaker 00

  You know, and I think he struggled with that. I think having, you know, at one point, you know, I, I couldn't see, I couldn't feel my feet.

• 1:06:10Speaker 00

  I was sleeping most of the time, obviously struggled with nausea and I'd lost my hair. So that is.

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  You can understand why anybody would find that difficult.

• 1:06:27Speaker 00

  But in business, when I have business challenges, he, you know, he's remarkably supportive.

• 1:06:36Steven Bartlett?

  You talked as well at the very start of this conversation about the passing of one of your children.

• 1:06:41Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:06:43Steven Bartlett?

  Um, another sort of inconceivable thing to experience. You said at the start, you've experienced a lot of like misfortune in your life. I mean, that's right up there with things that everybody hopes will never happen to them.

• 1:07:00Steven Bartlett?

  Are you, are you comfortable to talk about, about that?

• 1:07:03Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, I'm okay.

• 1:07:06Steven Bartlett?

  So you, you have, you had IVF?

• 1:07:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:07:10Steven Bartlett?

  Tell me about that process. I, I've learnt, you know, I've, it's, it's, it's interesting because if it weren't for this podcast and some of the guests that I've sat here with who've gone through the IVF process and that had the process fail for them. As a young man, I would not have a clue about any of that. And do you know what? I also wouldn't have a clue about the struggles that some women face to

• 1:07:38Steven Bartlett?

  become a parent.

• 1:07:41Steven Bartlett?

  Um, so whatever you can tell me about that process and that experience, I'd be incredibly grateful for.

• 1:07:47Speaker 00

  Hmm. Well, obviously it's not just women that struggle, it's men as well, which I think can be very difficult for some, you know, for men. I think they find that harder.

• 1:07:58Steven Bartlett?

  Of course.

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  Certainly when I went through the IVF, I mean, it's 12 years, over 12 years ago now. So again, it wasn't talked about like it is now. And that stigma makes it even more difficult and, you know, makes everybody involved feel, you know.

• 1:08:18Speaker 00

  There's something wrong with you and it can be so many different things, you know. And it's, I don't think it's just a given that people just fall pregnant. And the journey I went on is I did three IVFs in this country. Everything was if you fall pregnant, if, you know, if we can make an appointment here, if we can do that, everything was an if and felt a bit negative. And then I had to, um, one of the things I had to do was, or we had to do as a couple. We had to see a counselor. I think, I, I don't know if that's still part of the process, but you have to see a counselor. And halfway through the counselling session, the counselor started having a go at me.

• 1:09:00Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, duh.

• 1:09:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, she was saying, you're very intense. I'm like, well, I'm just, I'm just hanging, you know, I'm listening to everything you're saying and I'm interested. And she was, it felt like she was threatened by me. She felt uncomfortable with me. It was just a very negative approach. And then our, our fourth, so we, we had a break for about two years and then decided to go again. And this time we went to San Francisco and everything was when? When you fall pregnant, when this happens?

• 1:09:32Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really?

• 1:09:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, we can make this appointment, call me anytime, no, nothing's a problem. And I just think we are, maybe things have changed and, you know, this was, I was fortunate to use a private clinic, but there was still this, we're very cautious. We're so cautious in, in Britain, but that adds to the anxiety, definitely.

• 1:09:56Steven Bartlett?

  One might even go as far as saying that reduces the chance of success.

• 1:10:00Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:10:00Steven Bartlett?

  We talked about having an optimism bias.

• 1:10:02Speaker 00

  I'm totally, I'm totally convinced of it, totally convinced. And the disappointment every time we failed was overwhelming. You know, there's this blame, like who's, who's at fault here, you know? It is a very difficult, it's a very difficult journey to go on, very difficult.

• 1:10:21Steven Bartlett?

  And the San Francisco procedure was successful?

• 1:10:23Speaker 00

  Yes. And I, I then found out I was pregnant with twins, which was a shock. Um, I didn't want to know what sex they were. And at my first scan.

• 1:10:44Speaker 00

  He just spent a long time on one, on one of the babies. I didn't really notice. It was my, my husband that noticed something must be wrong. Um. And afterwards, the radiographer said to us, I'm sorry, but one of the

• 1:11:07Speaker 00

  one of the foetuses is, uh, has a

• 1:11:13Speaker 00

  he used words like an abnormal brain, um, a morbid outcome. And I think I can still pronounce the condition, but it, the condition that Alfie had was Allobar Holonpressenkephaly, which is basically

• 1:11:35Speaker 00

  he just has enough brain to live. And, um,

• 1:11:41Speaker 00

  to hear that.

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  Well, in, in fact, I didn't think he was going to make the pregnancy. They said he, he, I was told he wouldn't make nineteen weeks. But

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  um, of course, he did. He, he went through to birth and that was very difficult for me because I had grieved for him when he was in the womb. So it was a big shock to me when he was born. And I found bonding with him difficult at first. I found um,

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  diffi-, I found it difficult going to the hospital. Um, I, I was in hospital for a week um, be- before I was able to go home. Um, I'd had a Caesarian. It was a two hour, it was a two hour journey. And I obviously would take Scarlett with me. Um, but that was a very difficult time, a very difficult time for me. And he was in hospital for quite some time.

• 1:12:53Speaker 00

  And then eventually.

• 1:12:57Speaker 00

  We had the confidence to move him out of the hospital and into a fantastic home called the Children's Trust in Tadworth. And then I think that was when I was able to start to build a relationship with him. But nothing prepares you for that. Nothing prepares you for that.

• 1:13:23Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just unthinkable.

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  And, you know, as hard as this is to hear, you know, he was born in pain and to hear your son born crying in pain, not as a, any other, you know, that was, that was just the worst thing on earth.

• 1:13:45Steven Bartlett?

  That, the impact that has on a relationship as well, a marriage.

• 1:13:53Steven Bartlett?

  Oh God, it's just so many, there's so many feelings, right?

• 1:13:56Speaker 00

  You know, they say,

• 1:14:00Speaker 00

  you know, it's ironic that the, going through the IVF probably, you know, caused arguments and drove us apart. But when we had our, our son and he was, you know, obviously in hospital and then in, at the Children's Trust and with this devastating illness, it pulled us together. And my husband, you know, was absolutely amazing. And I mean, to have a strong person by your side in the worst situation you could ever have.

• 1:14:40Speaker 00

  But on the, you know, we did manage to, Scarlett was able to spend lots of time with him. We were able to take lots of lovely video footage of him. He was looked after so well there and all of the sensory treatment they, they give is amazing. And, you know, now, we have all of Alfie's memories and, you know, I've kept a pirate's box for him and, you know, he's very much part of Scarlett's life, even though he's not here.

• 1:15:19Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you for your honesty there. I think it's just tremendously valuable and eye opening. And it's a window that into a a set of life events that few few are misfortunate enough to experience, but I'm glad, I'm just very glad that you find the confidence to

• 1:15:41Steven Bartlett?

  give us that because yeah, these are things that, you know, people are naive to unless they go through them. And I think a lot of the things that you've talked about today, people are naive to unless they go through them. So sharing it, okay, like for me is never gonna make me understand fully. But I think it gives me a ton of empathy towards the people that go through those situations. So thank you for that. Something else you you mentioned at the start of this conversation was about a nanny. And I I wrote that down because it was a slightly obscure thing to hear. But I wanted to come back to it just before we we conclude, which was that you were poisoned by a nanny.

• 1:16:20Speaker 00

  I've been very unlucky, haven't I?

• 1:16:21Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:25Speaker 00

  I mean, this was bizarre. This was bizarre.

• 1:16:27Steven Bartlett?

  This is like a movie.

• 1:16:28Speaker 00

  I had this nanny. It was when Alfie was

• 1:16:33Speaker 00

  obviously in the home, so I needed all the help I could get and

• 1:16:40Speaker 00

  I trusted her implicitly with my daughter.

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  And I had a really good relationship with her. I liked her. She was a lovely girl.

• 1:16:51Speaker 00

  And, you know, very reliable, etc.

• 1:16:56Speaker 00

  I also had a lady that used to sort of pop in with and do odd jobs. And while I was going through that period with Alfie, she would also prepare our meals. So all I had to do before HelloFresh and Gusto, it's what I had to do to

• 1:17:14Speaker 00

  you know, she'd just make it easier for me. And what I didn't know

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  was that she and the nanny didn't get on.

• 1:17:24Speaker 00

  And

• 1:17:27Speaker 00

  the nanny, instead of coming to me and saying, look, I've got a problem here, can we talk about it?

• 1:17:34Speaker 00

  She thought the best tactic would be to get the, cook the sack. So she thought, I know, I'll start off by putting, uh, copious amounts of sugar in, in, in the food after she's prepared it.

• 1:17:53Speaker 00

  So I came home from work and I'm sat there and, uh, um,

• 1:18:00Speaker 00

  cooked dinner, everything seems fine. And we had fish and when we sat down to eat the fish, the sauce tasted like custard.

• 1:18:09Speaker 00

  Um, but you know, the first time it happens, you think, hmm, maybe she acts, I don't know, maybe she's just used the wrong pot.

• 1:18:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:18Speaker 00

  Then the second time, a few weeks later, same thing happened again, this time it was salt. And I thought there's something wrong here.

• 1:18:30Speaker 00

  Um, and

• 1:18:34Speaker 00

  I want, I obviously needed to talk to the, to the lady that was doing the food. So that's what I'd arranged to do.

• 1:18:43Speaker 00

  But before I had chance to speak to her,

• 1:18:47Speaker 00

  um,

• 1:18:51Speaker 00

  the nanny was taking my daughter to Bluewater and I'd left my lunch at home. And so I called her and I said, you wouldn't drop it in for me, would you? She said, yeah, no problem. I'll do it on the way. So she came over,

• 1:19:06Speaker 00

  unbeknown to me, on the way, pulled over, poured, um,

• 1:19:13Speaker 00

  screen wash into my soup, sealed it all back up again, then went to the petrol station, sorted herself out petrol for the car. She's got my daughter in the back,

• 1:19:24Speaker 00

  brings it to my office, gets in the lift, brings it up, gives it to me as say, thanks, Ali, taking it from her. Then she's gone off to Bluewater with Scarlett.

• 1:19:36Speaker 00

  So I didn't know straight away because it wasn't until I'd come to, I came to eat it at um lunchtime. Luckily, I took quite a large mouthful. And the reason I say that is because I don't think I would have tasted it otherwise.

• 1:19:53Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:19:55Speaker 00

  And I spat it out because immediately it tasted of chemical. Because screenwash can kill you.

• 1:20:02Speaker 00

  And um.

• 1:20:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, we, I, I then went into meltdown because obviously she got my daughter with her.

• 1:20:13Steven Bartlett?

  Did you know straight away that she'd done that?

• 1:20:15Speaker 00

  I, yes, I, I, it was just instinct. My instinct was she, it was her, but I needed to talk to the cook first.

• 1:20:27Speaker 00

  But this all happened too quickly. I thought if I ring the police, is she of sound mind? Would, you know, would that make things worse? So I just waited for her to, to, because she was due to come back anyway and dropped Scarlett off with me and.

• 1:20:45Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, when she did, um, I took Scarlett and um. My H R, um, Gary at the time and someone else, my sister, actually, I think it was, um, confronted her.

• 1:21:02Steven Bartlett?

  And what?

• 1:21:02Speaker 00

  And she admitted it.

• 1:21:03Steven Bartlett?

  You're joking.

• 1:21:03Speaker 00

  And not at first, first of all, she denied it, but went bright red. And then they said, look, if you tell us the truth, we won't need to get the police involved. So she just blurted it out. She said, okay, I did it. I don't, I don't like the cook.

• 1:21:21Speaker 00

  I don't like the cook. And of course, I then felt I could do nothing but call the police because

• 1:21:30Speaker 00

  this is a woman that is going to, even when she leaves, even when she leaves me, she's going to get another job doing this, where she could do something like this to another family. And, and so she was charged.

• 1:21:45Speaker 00

  It went to court. She appeared on Good Morning Britain, first thing in the morning, and was at court in the afternoon, which didn't go down with the judge, well, with the judge, as you can imagine, you know, trying to get public sympathy and.

• 1:22:03Steven Bartlett?

  Sorry, public sympathy?

• 1:22:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, you know, these people don't always see their own wrongs, do they? They, they, it's never their fault.

• 1:22:14Steven Bartlett?

  You thought was it, and have you?

• 1:22:17Speaker 00

  Um, I think she just, she was just trying to put herself across in a, in a positive way.

• 1:22:28Speaker 00

  You know, she wasn't trying to harm me, but nevertheless, she was in a trusted position. And you can imagine the, the sort of trauma I felt for those few hours. And actually afterwards, because, you know, you then are questioning whether you can ever trust anybody again. Um, I'm, I just, you know, it's something else that makes you feel vulnerable.

• 1:22:56Speaker 00

  Um, she, you know, she kept messaging me, trying to get the, the court case cancelled. And of course, once it goes through that process, it can't anyway. She was found guilty. She was sentenced to a year in prison and she served three months.

• 1:23:15Steven Bartlett?

  Fucking hell.

• 1:23:19Steven Bartlett?

  That is awful. Do you know what I mean? Like potentially killing somebody and poisoning someone's food, you get three months in prison?

• 1:23:30Speaker 00

  Hmm. And then when she came out of prison, I then had to take out an injunction on her because I found out that she was trying to write a book about that time. I mean, you know, how much more disgusting can it get?

• 1:23:53Steven Bartlett?

  What a ride.

• 1:23:57Speaker 00

  It's been very colourful.

• 1:24:00Steven Bartlett?

  What are your like conclusive life lessons when you reflect on your own journey in business, in life? What are some of the like, you know, the things you'd say to your daughter if you were trying to advise her on the potential roller coaster that life can be as it has been for you?

• 1:24:18Speaker 00

  I mean, I try, I'm somebody who tries to have few regrets because I don't think

• 1:24:25Speaker 00

  there's any great benefit to that. But there are things I definitely would have done differently.

• 1:24:34Speaker 00

  I think, you know, I do have courage. But you can never have enough of it.

• 1:24:41Speaker 00

  And in certain situations, I always find myself the first one to be daring, I suppose is the word I'm looking for.

• 1:24:53Speaker 00

  I think that's a good thing. I could think that's a good thing in life. I think being engaging is a good quality I'd want my daughter to have, which is why I've always wanted her to be as confident as possible, to always believe that you not only can you be anything you want to be, but you don't have to follow the norm. And actually, it's good to be different. My business pieces would be slightly different, actually, because I, you know, I think the things I wish I'd done more of are networking. And I, I told you about the story about going to San Diego. And I guess that's where I was going with that because in America, networking

• 1:25:33Speaker 00

  is something that people do all the time. And in this country, at the time I started out, it was nowhere near what it is today. And I think particularly for women, women, you know, you know, my husband is a brilliant networker. I mean, you know, wherever he does it, he'll do anywhere. And, you know, I know when he says, oh, I was playing golf again. Actually, you know, he's, he's just natural at it. It's part of who he is. But.

• 1:26:06Speaker 00

  I think, you know, women, it's a thing where you think, I haven't got time for that. I've got to really focus on this job or I've got to finish this deadline or. But I have realised as I've got older, you know, every time you walk in a room and meet a room full of strangers, there's an opportunity there, you know, that could possibly change your life. And actually, you were telling me something similar earlier when you were talking about The Apprentice.

• 1:26:31Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 1:26:33Speaker 00

  So, you know.

• 1:26:36Steven Bartlett?

  I've got to tell you, basically, we were talking about The Apprentice before we started recording and, um, uh, Jacqueline, you were on The Apprentice.

• 1:26:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:43Steven Bartlett?

  Um, and I was saying that I basically got threw off The Apprentice, the junior apprentice, when I was 14 years old, as some of you might know. Um, but in the queue, I met a family, the Alawalia family. Um, it was actually the, uh, the son of the Alawalia billionaire, I believe he's a billionaire now, was in the queue with me, got chatting to him, Jay Alawalia. And although I got kicked off the show and therefore didn't get the 25 grand that I would have got at 14 years old to start my business, he ended up investing multiples more than that in my business. And that was just someone that I met in the queue and had great conversation with because we were auditioning together for seven hours. So.

• 1:27:18Speaker 00

  And I think that's brilliant, a brilliant example.

• 1:27:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:23Steven Bartlett?

  Completely agree.

• 1:27:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, um, and the people piece that I said to you earlier, I wished I had recognised the importance of, you know, for me, you know, people are the success of your business. And I wished I'd recognised that earlier.

• 1:27:41Steven Bartlett?

  Amen to that. That's the, that's the single number one thing that I wish I'd recognised earlier. I thought it was about me because I was naive and dumb and probably a bit, I don't know, arrogant. I thought my business success was about my ability, but it was all about the people that I pulled together and the culture I bound them with.

• 1:28:04Steven Bartlett?

  So I had an idea last week, which we wanted to try. Historically, we get our guests just to sign the book. But what I would like you to do, instead of that, as well as signing the book, is just to write a question. And whoever sits in this seat next, and it could be anybody, right? Could be someone at the very, very top of business, the very top of politics, the very top of sports. Could be anybody. I'm going to ask them to, I'm going to ask them that question. We're not going to, we're not going to read it out right now, but next week's episode, I will pose them that question. So whatever question you want to write in this book, feel free.

• 1:28:41Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:28:42Steven Bartlett?

  It's going to be a secret until next week's episode. Okay.

• 1:28:45Speaker 00

  Fab.

• 1:28:45Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:28:47Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:28:47Steven Bartlett?

  You know, you're just remarkable. It's quite staggering that you've both gone through so much adversity, as you've described, and misfortune, as you've, you've called it. And yet you are the person you are today. And there's such a huge amount of optimism which shines through when you speak about these incidents. And even, you know, you were talking about some of, some incidents that are just unthinkable for one person to go through in, in their life, just one of those incidents. Yeah, you always caveated it with a but, and that was always the silver lining. And I think to have that attitude where you can always see the silver lining or the, the lesson or the value in adversity is a remarkable thing.

• 1:29:25Steven Bartlett?

  That I think, you know, will, will create, as we described with the negativity bias that you saw in the IVF system in the UK, can actually dictate the outcome in our lives.

• 1:29:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:37Steven Bartlett?

  And the last two years has been, you know, the greatest need for an optimism bias, I think, we've all experienced. So thank you. You've inspired me tremendously. I read about your story before you came here today, and I was just blown away. But I was blown away by your success as well as a businesswoman, because coming into a company at 19 and becoming the CEO and leading it as you have and changing the business, and then leading this incredible charge against, you know, a male stigma. But more broadly, a social stigma around sexualization and sex and, and, and I guess equality is just a remarkable, remarkable thing. You know, and this is the reason why I started this podcast was to get to meet people like you that would inspire me.

• 1:30:22Steven Bartlett?

  And I just happened to record it so other people could listen. So thank you.

• 1:30:25Speaker 00

  Well, it's been a real joy. I, I, I have really enjoyed it. And I really look forward to hearing it and seeing it.

• 1:30:34Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, thank you so much. Honestly, amazing. You are amazing.

• 1:30:37Speaker 00

  Pleasure. Thank you.