Pod Insights The Psychology of your 20s 289. The psychology of high functioning depression About this episode We are used to seeing depression one way: tears, extreme sadness, never leaving the house, pure misery. But for many of us, we experience depression differently. High functioning depression, a kind of depression where an individuals presents as seemingly 'fine' if not successful and thriving is on the rise. But despite outside appearances, it's just as debilitating as the depression we expect. In today's episode we discuss:
The bad vs. sad stigma present in society What we expect depression to look like + why that harms people What HF depression really looks like What factors increase the likelihood The link between overachievers, childhood trauma + hyperindependence How to support a loved one with HF depression How to cope ourselves + so much more Listen now!
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2:45 Jemma Sbeg? Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of our twenties. Before we get into today's episode, though, I do want to let you know that we will be talking about some heavy topics today, including self-harm, suicidal ideation and grief. So if you are particularly sensitive to these topics, please consider your need to listen to this episode right now. It will still be here tomorrow, in a week, in a few months, or even a year, when you feel more mentally prepared to come back to it.
3:27 Jemma Sbeg? So please remember, your mental health is always the top priority. So if you do need any further assistance now or after listening to this episode, there will be links in the description and I'm sending you a lot of love and a lot of healing. Okay, so today I want to take a bit of a vulnerable turn and talk about something quite personal to me that I've existed with for many, many years, and that is high functioning depression. Depression that is almost, I would say, invisible from the outside, but deeply taxing on the inside. The kind of depression that makes you push and push and push yourself
4:10 Jemma Sbeg? so that it may seem like you're okay and that you're doing well, maybe even accomplished. But everything just takes one percent more and more from you. And inside, you know, you are really struggling despite taking care of everything on your list, despite. Appearances, this kind of breed of depression, I guess, it's a lot more common than we think. And yet, we have no idea of the numbers, we have no idea of how many people are secretly hiding behind a very high functioning appearance, because we don't talk about it and because it's so hard to recognize when it is occurring. People who have high functioning depression don't get help.
4:54 Jemma Sbeg? They don't feel seen in the typical depiction of what depression should look like. For those of us in our twenties as well, I think it's also so easy at times to conceal this kind of depression. And it's so easy for us to feel like that is the appropriate path, that we should be busy, we should be having fun, we should be pursuing success, you know, these are the best years of our lives. And sometimes we, we believe, you know, I have no reason to be depressed, you know, that, that, that's not, that's not me. I'm in these spectacular youthful years, I should be happy, I should be happy. And that's where we really need to fix our misconceptions around depression.
5:38 Jemma Sbeg? Not just that it's not a bad word, but also that anyone can experience this, even if your life seems perfect, even if you seemingly have it all together, even if it doesn't look like it from the outside. Even if people would say you're thriving, the private battle could look very, very different. And so today, we're here to talk about it. We're here to talk about what high functioning depression looks like, how to notice it in yourself, but also in others. Why it is so invisible, what creates that concealment, what creates this your nature or breed of depression?
6:15 Jemma Sbeg? And, you know, the involvement of stigma, of hyperindependence, of childhood trauma, of being a high achiever, what all those things have to do with it. But also, how to take care of yourself, even when you don't quote, "look the part", even when you feel the pressure to keep it all together. And additionally, what I wish our family, our friends, our partners would know about this experience and how they can help us. And so, so, so much more. So, I'm actually pretty excited about this episode. I have wanted to do it for a long time, but you know, it's quite private, it's quite a personal experience and. You know, I kind of kept leaning away from it, but it feels like the right time to do it.
6:56 Jemma Sbeg? I hope that it is, if nothing else, informative and makes you feel seen. Or if you are a friend of someone experiencing this, a partner, a loved one, helps you understand their lived experience more. So without further ado, my lovely listeners, let's get into it.
7:17 Jemma Sbeg? So I have this theory and it's a theory that I've had for a long time and I talk about it with my friends a lot. But my theory is that at this point in time, society expects any person who was mentally ill to fall into one of two categories. They are either sad or they are bad. And I'm going to explain this a little bit further. But based on media portrayals, stereotypes, news stories, public opinion, people who experience mental ill health are either depicted or seen to be dangerous, harmful, scary, ready to scream at you, hurt you, they're violent, they should be off the streets. That's how, you know, we see news articles written about this, that people who have mental illness are dangerous.
8:02 Jemma Sbeg? We see them depicted in a really poor light. Or, or you are entirely miserable. You are locked in the house. You look forlorn and terrible. You don't shower. You don't get out of bed. It's like that scene in Bridget Jones, like where she's eating ice cream and watching TV, like locked in her apartment for months, but constantly. And there is no in-between. There is no room for nuance. Either you are pitied or you are feared. And if you don't look like that, well, you must be fine. You must be putting it on. It's this terrible catch 22 whereby if you meet the stereotype, you are treated differently and you are expected to hide away.
8:45 Jemma Sbeg? But if you don't, well, then you must not be unwell enough. You must be lying about what you're experiencing. It also, I think, really lets people continue to believe that, you know, well, poor mental health, it's not that widespread. People are just making a big deal out of it. Because a lot of the people they do encounter don't match their preconceived notions, you know. Their colleagues, their roommates, their family friends who they come across every couple of months. They might be suffering with extreme anxiety, depression, bipolar, OCD, any number of mood disorders or personality disorders.
9:24 Jemma Sbeg? But because they don't look like the stereotype, they're easily ignored as being part of of that community. So it really does hurt everyone in multiple ways. The way that any kind of stereotype will, like, you cannot siphon down and generalize the entire experience of individuals experiencing mental ill health. And you most certainly cannot put them into one of two buckets, either you are bad or sad, like I said. So this really brings me to how we have been taught to see depression specifically. Now, let me begin by saying that in order to be diagnosed with depression,
10:07 Jemma Sbeg? you do need to meet certain criteria in the DSM, that's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. You know, if you go to a doctor, a psychiatrist, a psychologist, they are going to look for certain things. And there are also a many different, like quite a few different types of depression. I think sometimes we we say, oh, someone's depressed and we just think of this general, generic, run-of-the-mill depression. But you can have major depressive disorder, persistent depressive disorder, seasonal affective disorder, postpartum depression, depression is also part of bipolar.
10:43 Jemma Sbeg? It's all distressing, like all of them cause, you know, a lot of impairment in some form. But mainly what we are looking for, what a psychiatrist or a psychologist or a doctor, any number of professionals are looking for is a depressive episode. So they want to know that at some point you have experienced a prolonged period, normally for more than two weeks, of having a depressed mood, having diminished interest or pleasure in your hobbies and activities, um, seeing a change in your weight, in your appetite, insomnia, uh, motor skills may have declined,
11:23 Jemma Sbeg? diminished ability to think or concentrate, you might feel very worthless, very tired. And also you have these reoccurring thoughts of death. Not just a fear of dying, although that is part of it, but also a suicidal ideation, a plan, or you have previously attempted. Another thing they are looking for, if you want to be diagnosed with depression or a major depressive disorder, is that you don't have any manic or hyper manic symptoms. So basically that means that your depressive symptoms aren't counterbalanced by a period afterwards of mania. So elevated mood, increased energy, activity, impulsivity, feelings of grandiosity, that kind of thing. So
12:08 Jemma Sbeg? they want to rule out that you don't have bipolar disorder or some other kind of mood disorder. Now, that is a very general and very general understanding of depression. It's definitely not everything you need to know, but there's one other component here, and that is when a professional is looking at the list of criteria, you don't have to meet them all. So I gave you like a list of maybe nine. You only have to have between two to five to diagnose you with a depressive episode, either a minor or a major depressive episode. So that means that there are almost, and I did my math here, I went back to my economics roots, there are almost six hundred and twenty seven.
12:52 Jemma Sbeg? Different combinations of symptoms that you could have to be diagnosed with depression. So this idea that depression looks one way, yes, we have a big list of symptoms, but in order to be diagnosed, you only need to have maybe three or four or five. So if we do the combination of them, again, six hundred and twenty seven different combinations of symptoms. You could get ten people in a room who all have depression and they still might not look the same. Some of them may have a lot of energy, insomnia, a depressed mood, but you know, they're still interested in exercising. They still feel good about themselves. They still eat normally. Then you could have someone who predominantly feels quite worthless and is consistently thinking about death.
13:37 Jemma Sbeg? But they are still able to concentrate and they wouldn't classify themselves as being depressed. If you kind of get where I'm coming from, like, there is just so many iterations of this. And with that in mind, it's not just that we have all these combinations, it's that each person's way of expressing a singular symptom is also going to be different. So let's talk about being one that people pull out as markedly diminished interest or pleasure in most or all activities. That is going to look really different for different people. For one person, they may no longer find joy in their favorite hobbies, like painting or playing music. For another, it could be that they still enjoy their hobbies, but they are withdrawing from social gatherings.
14:19 Jemma Sbeg? For someone else, it's that they can't find motivation to do basic things like cooking or showering, but they still find time to be social. So again, each symptom, there will be individual differences. This is why, this is my argument for why. We cannot be led to believe that depression is going to look one certain way on everyone all of the time. The notion of depression as extreme sadness or crying all the time, isolation, staying in bed, a crisis, an inability to function. It does not explain everybody's experience. And you know what, there is no shame in your depression looking that way. In fact, for me, at times, it has looked that way. I talked about that in my episode on my mental breakdown
15:04 Jemma Sbeg? last year. You know, there was a period where my depression presented in a very stereotypical way, but it cannot be the only narrative being told by society. That limited perspective can be harmful because it overlooks the many hidden or subtle ways that depression can show up, like irritability, like perfectionism, overworking, physical symptoms that people might confuse with physical ill health, or excessive socializing, all of these coping mechanisms that aren't typically thought of. So this kind of brings me to what we're talking about today, high functioning depression. Sorry it's taken me so long to get here, but I promise that explanation was worth it. High functioning depression, it's not a medical diagnosis, but it is a form of depression
15:49 Jemma Sbeg? that we can recognize where from the outside, someone looks very capable, successful, perfectly happy, they look like they're doing well, but below the surface, they are really struggling and they're experiencing a lot of personal or private impairment. It is the kind of depression or depressive episode that doesn't meet the stereotype. And because of that, people sometimes feel like their experience is less valid. Maybe they don't deserve the same level of help as others. Maybe they have been misdiagnosed. But none of this is true. It's just that the reality of their depression is different to what we've been told.
16:30 Jemma Sbeg? Now, I'm gonna say this, I do think that the term high functioning depression, it's not the best choice of words. Um, I don't love it all that much. It's kind of the same reason why I guess people don't like high functioning autism. It's obviously not an official diagnosis and it almost has the effect of ranking individuals on like some merit base, like are you worthy and high functioning? Or are you low functioning and not worthy? Like, there is this weird hierarchy to it. It's not inclusive and it- Can sometimes be quite misleading, you know, high functioning doesn't mean someone doesn't need support.
17:11 Jemma Sbeg? Here are some other reasons why people are trying to maybe steer us away from the term high functioning depression. It can really minimize the struggle, of course, people with high functioning depression experience just as much emotional pain, self doubt and exhaustion, even if from the outside, they're great at masking it. It does, you know, that term does really reinforce a very toxic productivity mindset. Kind of suggests that as long as you are productive, your mental health isn't a problem. And you don't need help for it. It also definitely creates a barrier to diagnoses and treatment. And you know what depression, whether it's high functioning or low functioning, which that's the part of it that I hate.
17:55 Jemma Sbeg? Low functioning, like you still, you still are struggling. And it exists on a spectrum, like everything else does. So I actually typically call it something else in my own life. In my day to day life, I refer to high functioning depression as masked depression or disguised depression. Cause I just think that that's a better term for it. So what does masked depression or disguised depression look like? How does that compare to what we've been told to think about it? I'm going to use my own experience as an example here. I think from the outside, sometimes I have made the mistake of trying
18:40 Jemma Sbeg? too hard to pretend that everything is perfect in my life, either online or with my family and friends, even with my partner. And it's meant that I will truly be in the trenches. I will be thinking terrible, dark thoughts, struggling with zero motivation, wanting to sleep fifteen hours a day. And if someone was like, hey, how are you? Even like my partner, even like my friends, they'd be like, oh, how are you going? I can be quite dismissive of that question and be like, I'm fine, like I'm fine, I'm good, yep, super, super good. I think mass depression is wanting to keep up the appearance that your life is okay. Either consciously or unconsciously, perhaps unconsciously because.
19:22 Jemma Sbeg? You know, admitting it to other people, allowing the symptoms to be visible would mean that you would have to acknowledge it. I think people with mass depression often overwork themselves. They often have a lot on their plate. They often surround themselves with a lot of other high achievers. They put a lot of responsibilities on their plate. They don't take breaks. They push themselves to a point of burnout. And then they also go through a lot more periods of withdrawal. So you just don't see them for a while. You know, you can't reach them, you can't access them, all in an effort from them to keep what they're going through quite private.
20:07 Jemma Sbeg? You know, mass depression comes with a lot of unconscious pretenses, probably because we have internalized the stigma surrounding looking depressed and we don't want to be lumped into the side box. But also because it's meant for me at least, that a lot of my symptoms impacted things that people normally don't see. So it's easier to conceal. So that's the part of it that's not necessarily conscious, it just kind of happens, you know. It would be hard to know how tired I am if you only met me for two hours or we only had dinner once a week because my fatigue is is quite a private symptom. Uh, same with like those spiraling negative thought patterns, the thoughts of death, the existential questions.
20:50 Jemma Sbeg? Those are hard to see because they're not outward facing because you can't climb into my brain and look around and be like, ugh, yuck, like this is not good. Like, someone needs to clean this up. This is not healthy. Like, you can't do that. You know, you can't come into my house and see what a mess it is unless I invited you. So I think for people with high functioning depression, yes, there is a sense of like, they really feel the need to conceal it. But it may also be that their depression shows up in a much more private manner, just by the nature of what symptoms are occurring. People with mass depression, I also think, involve themselves in a lot of very private coping as well. So coping mechanisms that aren't necessarily visible, emotional eating, relying on alcohol,
21:33 Jemma Sbeg? drinking a whole bottle of wine by themselves at home, uh, social media or again, work to numb themselves. And that numbness is a huge component of this. And I think it's something that. Once we can step into and once we, once we can blunt our emotions, numb ourselves to the world. It means that we can carry ourselves through truly anything because we don't have to feel our feelings. Basically, we can switch on autopilot and still do all the things that need to be done in order to be accepted. And be seen as quite functioning. But also because of that, we're not really investing in anything deeply.
22:12 Jemma Sbeg? So, you know, you may work really, really hard on some big project, you get amazing feedback, you have amazing results and you still feel empty. Or something great has happened in your life because you've detached from the bad stuff as well. And you've numbed yourself to your experiences, it just feels like nothing. Falling in love, for example, you know, you could be dating someone and you're like, wow, this person is incredible. How come I can't commit fully emotionally to this experience, not even to this person, but just to the niceness of falling in love. Someone actually explained this really, really well, and it was a listener who DMed me with a question.
22:50 Jemma Sbeg? And part of her question or her message to me said, it's like I'm looking down into my own life with no emotions. Like I'm watching it from above. And that is exactly the perfect description, like it always reminds me. I don't know if you've seen the Amy Winehouse documentary. Um, Amy Winehouse, of course, had depression herself amongst a litany of other really difficult things. And there's a scene in the documentary, which I love, I love that documentary, but she wins a Grammy. And they're filming her and she looks so excited and stunned and everyone who loves her is there. And it should be like the highlight of her life.
23:34 Jemma Sbeg? And then her friend pulls her aside, or she pulls her friend aside, something happens and her friend is like, oh my God, this is so exciting. And she's just like, I feel nothing, like I just feel absolutely nothing. This should be the best day of my life and I feel nothing. And I think that a big part of that is probably, and I know, an episode of Mask Depression where she felt like in the moment she needed to be on and be okay, but the moment there was a trusted person there, it was like the mask slipped. So this is what it looks like. Maybe you can see yourself in these descriptions. You can see yourself in the overachiever, the overworker, in the emotional numbness, in the hidden coping mechanisms.
24:19 Jemma Sbeg? I want to talk about why it occurs. You know, besides stigma, besides some of the things we've talked about, what are the contributing factors to mass depression? Well, we are going to take a short break, a quick decompress for a second. But when we return, we will talk origins and we will, of course, also talk about how to cope. Stay with us.
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27:16 Jemma Sbeg? Okay, so there are some main explanations for why you may find yourself masking your depression or identifying as quote unquote, high functioning. Firstly, a big, big part of it comes down to not just how, but where you were raised. You might have come from a family or culture that teaches people not to talk about mental illness, in which case a form of mass depression, mass anxiety, mass anything is much more likely. Something really interesting I've noticed is the correlation between countries that report low mental
27:56 Jemma Sbeg? illness rates and the rate of stigma. You know, it's most likely that if we went into every single country and we did proper examinations and diagnoses, about a third of people across their lifetime would have mental ill health. That's the kind of accepted rate that people suggest is most likely if people actually got diagnosed. So when a country or a government is saying, oh, you know, well, mental ill health, the rate of that in our country is one or 2%. I always look at that and I'm like, that means that the rate of masking and high functioning or disguised depression, anxiety, OCD, bipolar, whatever it is, is so much higher.
28:37 Jemma Sbeg? And it also means, A, there is probably a lot of stigma in instances that are ignored. B, they probably don't have the infrastructure to even measure mental ill health rates. Or C, the true, you know, the true problem is that it's being deliberately hidden and they don't want to acknowledge it. It's probably a combination of all three. So as a result, if you are living in a country where they're like, ah, our rate of depression is zero point one percent or zero point five percent, like the chances of mass depression in a community like that is going to be a lot higher. You may have also developed mass depression if you think you'll feel better by powering through it on your own. Now, where does that come from? I'm sure a lot of you are like screaming into your phones like, childhood, it comes from childhood.
29:22 Jemma Sbeg? And it does, it comes from being taught that self-sufficiency was the way and your self-sufficiency and independence was rewarded, which is an important thing for a child's development. But it was rewarded to an extent that like you were discouraged from showing vulnerability or asking for help. So when you really did need assistance, your parents were like, we're not going to get involved in that. That can really lead to a sense of hyper-independence. I E, if I can't manage this alone, if I can't do this alone, I'm weak. And this kind of messaging can cause us to minimize our experiences and think, you know, I don't have it as bad as that person does, as a way of denial and avoidance.
30:03 Jemma Sbeg? I also think mass depression is more likely if you are trying to avoid any impact of your depression on your job, on your relationships, on your life. And you are hoping that if you just ignore it for long enough, it will lift. Like this is just a time thing. I think this is basically a fear of losing momentum, a fear of losing progress, which is very common in a success obsessed society. It's also a fear of losing control. You know, something I've heard from a lot of people and even some listeners is this fear that if you let yourself acknowledge and feel depressed or admit it to yourself or lean
30:45 Jemma Sbeg? in to the terrible feelings, you are going to lose touch with your reality and you're going to lose touch with your sanity. Basically, we have this fear that if we don't mask our depression to the world and therefore to ourselves, we are going to go quote unquote crazy. The thing is, I get this fear, it really rarely happens. In fact, you are actually more likely to experience severe symptoms, but again, mostly irreversible symptoms, if you keep suppressing and avoiding what you're going through, because the emotional toll is going to become greater and more strenuous. But I promise you that if you acknowledge it and you look at it in the in the eyes and you get help, you're not going to lose your sanity, you're not going to lose your mind.
31:30 Jemma Sbeg? And this idea and this fear, I understand it, we all want to feel calm and stable in our lives, but really it does just come back to stigma. And it comes back to that age old story we've been told, back to the times when most mental illnesses were just labeled hysteria and you were put in an asylum that this experience is terrible and it's going to ruin your life and it's going to make you different and it's just going to cause you harm. Like, that's what we have been led to believe, it's going to make you crazy. That's not true. Let me say this, there are so many more treatments, more pathways, more options for people nowadays. There is nothing as well that you will have to go through alone.
32:13 Jemma Sbeg? This will not be the first time that a doctor or a psychologist has seen something similar to your case. This is not going to be the first time someone has had to go through what you're going through. And even if the worst, worst, worst case scenario happens, which it won't, but you find yourself losing your sanity, which, which you weren't, you're still gonna find a way to come back to yourself. I promise you that. And getting help sooner, accessing your emotions sooner will only ever help that. It will never make that worse. But I do think that's a big component of sometimes unconsciously masking our depression.
32:54 Jemma Sbeg? We don't wanna acknowledge that it could get worse, but by doing that, we allow it to get worse. Sometimes though, mass depression actually just comes from trauma. And it's just expressed that way without any kind of conscious decision to conceal it. So there was an amazing research paper that was published last year, last year? Maybe even this year. It was published very recently. It's titled Understanding High-Functioning Depression in Adults. And in it, they conducted a hundred and twenty interviews with, with individuals between eighteen and seventy-five, who had been identified as having mass depression. They obviously call it high-functioning depression.
33:36 Jemma Sbeg? Twenty of whom, out of the hundred and twenty, had extreme high-functioning depression, to the point where, you know, someone actually had recommended them to the study. They didn't even believe that they had a problem, but it was quite obvious that they did. They found a very, very, very strong correlation between mass or high-functioning depression and trauma. In particular, a lot of these individuals had experienced a lot of compounding minor traumas, but also a lot of big trauma as well, such that, you know, especially if it had occurred at an early age, maybe their brains had begun to process their emotions differently and detach very, very early on from big feelings to protect themselves emotionally.
34:22 Jemma Sbeg? They also found that people with high functioning depression, as they called it, were more likely to experience something called anhedonia. This is a lack of pleasure in everyday activities and joys. And they suggested that the higher rates of anhedonia in people with high functioning depression might actually be contributing to them being quite overachievers or pushing themselves. Because their kind of baseline for experiencing pleasure is so much higher. So more needs to occur, more needs to happen. They need to achieve more success in order to feel the level of of pride and enjoyment
35:02 Jemma Sbeg? and pleasure that, you know, someone else would feel from just getting a good job from their boss. Essentially, they need a bigger win. They need to strive and feel much more important. They need a much higher level of success to reach that pleasure threshold that, you know, someone else would reach quite easily.
35:22 Jemma Sbeg? That's the big takeaway. Anhedonia and high functioning depression are linked, but also trauma and high functioning depression. So those are a few explanations for why it is that you may be experiencing this type of depression, why it is more common in certain cultures, certain communities, in people who have been raised a certain way. Now I want to talk about what we're going to do about it. We have this experience, we're living this experience. What do we do? I want to start out by just firstly, having a little heart to heart here, you know, between you and me and acknowledging, okay, this is something you are experiencing and you're going through and what you have to manage day in and day out,
36:06 Jemma Sbeg? regardless of whether other people are seeing it or not. I think I know the kind of person you probably are. And I know that you're probably putting on such a brave face. And I know how hard you're trying. And I know you have to give a hundred and fifty percent where everyone else might only have to give fifty. And I know you must be so tired. I know how hard it is. I also know you probably go back and forth over whether you deserve to have the label and receive support. You probably go back and forth over whether this is even real because you're trying to perhaps convince yourself it's not. And I know you're trying so hard. I know you're trying to keep up appearances.
36:51 Jemma Sbeg? Just wanna validate that experience for you because it's so freaking hard and tough. And it's exhausting. It's frustrating. But it also doesn't have to continue to be invisible. I think once we acknowledge, okay, just because my depression is high functioning doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's the first step. I think the next step after that is being prepared to talk to others about this. Literally, you could just send them this episode if you want to and just say, hey, you know, all those things I've been struggling with, I think it's this, this explains it well. You can also just start being honest with your family, your closest friends, your partner, when they ask you,
37:35 Jemma Sbeg? how are you? How are you going? What would it feel like to just finally say, you know what, not good? And I'm hurting and this is hard and can you please help me? What would, what would that feel like? Something that completely changed how I think about asking for help was, someone said to me once, your loved ones actually want the opportunity to love you. You are giving them the gift of being able to show you how much they care. Like that's an honor to them. That's a gift. That's an opportunity. And I thought about the people in my life who I love and how I love being given the opportunity to show them that I would do anything for them.
38:18 Jemma Sbeg? Like that's actually a real privilege to have that trust and it's a gift. You know, invite people into your hard moments. Keep them in the loop with your hard days. When they offer to help you, just try out saying yes, see how it feels. Think about all the times that you've said yes for others. You know, you've, you've paid your dues. You do so much for other people. It's okay to accept some help back. In fact, I think you might really deserve it. Actually, why did, why did I even say, I think, I know you really deserve it? You've spent so long proving that you don't, that you can do it yourself. We know that now. Like, we know that you are capable. We know that if no one helped you, you would be fine.
39:00 Jemma Sbeg? But is that really the way that you want to be? Is that the way you want to live? Is that the only option? You know, it's a strange thing to rewire your mind to accept help and to let people in after so many years of trying to prove to yourself that you didn't need to do that. But it is so liberating to just have someone see you for what you're really experiencing and to want to love you and help you. And it is like anything else with practice. It gets easier, you get better at it. It becomes more second nature to you. You know, sometimes, and we do need to acknowledge this, we aren't always going to be met with acceptance.
39:45 Jemma Sbeg? And that's when the real battle begins, right? You have opened up, it's taken you so much to to kind of pull back the mask and you're shut down. I want to say if that is the case, and you're thinking, oh, you know, it would have been better if I just kept this inside. And, you know, if I just made everyone else comfortable and didn't bother them. This is where I really want you to pause. You cannot spend your entire life trying to make everyone else's life easier and more comfortable, especially when it makes it harder for you. You just simply cannot. You know, the stigma they are feeling is an issue for them. And it doesn't change your experience. Sometimes I also find these people who are so readily
40:30 Jemma Sbeg? quick to deny your experience and to say, well, you're not depressed, you're fine. You know, you're okay. I often think these are the people who are lying to themselves as well. Because they're looking at you and they're saying, well, if that person isn't fine, what about all these things I've been trying to hide? What about all these secret parts of me that I have suppressed for so long as well? I think often our openness challenges people to recognize what their closed offness has cost them.
41:01 Jemma Sbeg? In these instances, though, I think it's not worth waiting for someone to change their mind. That might sound brutal. It's not worth waiting to convince someone of your existence, of your reality and how you're experiencing the world. Please, in this like very vulnerable period, focus on those who bring you up with total acceptance. Focus on the people for whom if you said, I'm having a really bad day, they'd say, I'm coming over. Or they'd say, I see you, I feel you, I'm sorry. I also want you to challenge yourself to prioritize rest without guilt. Because chances are you're over-functioning and your acts of trying to compensate
41:41 Jemma Sbeg? for how you feel through success and overworking are probably taking even more of a mental toll. So I need something from you. I need you to schedule a day or a weekend of nothing. I need you to make that a practice. You know, I'm sure if I set any other kind of goal for you, you would meet it really, really quickly. Um, your goal here is to rest. It's to not be productive. I need you to put effort into this. I need you to be switching off by eight P M at the latest from work, from your responsibilities, from your phone. I need you to take your sick leave. Something I always say to people is that sick leave, you have earned that. That is part of your wage, that is part of your salary.
42:26 Jemma Sbeg? Like sick leave is deducted from your total salary that they expected to to pay you and put into a separate account. Basically, that's how I see it. You still have access and rights to the to that money. So you need to take your sick leave. You need to slow down for just a second. You know, your worth and personality does not only come from how productive you can be or efficient. Like, we know you can be productive. I know you can be productive. I know you're you're a high achiever. Rest is an essential part in keeping you well as well and in keeping you alive. And if it helps you in any way, it's also an important part in keeping you productive if we really wanna go that far.
43:08 Jemma Sbeg? In fact, if if you are focused on success and that's something that's really important to you, which I'm I'm assuming it is. People who allow themselves rest and who give themselves downtime only come back better than ever. Let's give some examples here. Simone Biles, Serena Williams, Adele, you know, she took a five year break from her singing career and came back with one of her best albums ever. Now, no one is gonna look at those women and say, God, like, she really hasn't done much with her time. Like, she's such a failure because she she took time for herself and she rested. No, like, these women are like at the top of their game. These women and people in general, there are so many more examples. They
43:51 Jemma Sbeg? restored their bodies, they restored their minds, and they came back better and stronger than ever. And that's what I need from you. We need more examples of this in the age we're in. You know, we need to get rid of this hustle mentality, which serves no one and focus on how you are going to last the distance, how you are going to ease up on yourself, how you are going to take care of yourself and be present. There is no point working extremely hard for something if by the time you get there, you are ready to collapse and you cannot even appreciate it. Following up from that in terms of advice for people with high functioning depression,
44:32 Jemma Sbeg? I also saw an amazing piece of advice from a psychiatrist in a recent School of Psychology article that spoke about how people with mass depression actually really benefit from breaking out of their routine and not just prioritizing rest, of course, but also going on these micro adventures. Um, and this researcher was looking at um the initiation and addition of of novelty into the lives of people with depression and how that really improved their wellbeing. So going on these little adventures, not big things, not solo traveling, not large scale Europe holidays or Asia holidays or whatever, but just small everyday things was really, really amazing
45:15 Jemma Sbeg? for their wellbeing and really broke up the monotonous nature of their lives. And what she was saying in this article is that people with mass depression They often find a lot of solace in their routine because it allows them to further slip into autopilot mode. But it also becomes really restrictive and secretly quite exhausting. So allowing yourself planned time to go explore is so important. Like go to a, go strawberry picking. I did that this weekend. Amazing. It was so much fun. It costs like ten dollars. Like go strawberry picking, go on a weekend hike, go walk some foster dogs. Like I have a foster dog right now.
45:54 Jemma Sbeg? Called Tali and like she has changed my life in terms of getting out of the house, exploring my neighborhood, meeting new people. Have a gallery day, have a picnic, just like drive the however long it takes to get to the beach. I guess I live in Australia, so it's not that long, but you know, go to a beautiful body of water and submerge yourself in it, explore your city. I really think that micro adventures are so fantastic because novelty for depression in general is fantastic. Depression by nature is quite limiting and it keeps things very small and less vibrant and restrictive. So
46:35 Jemma Sbeg? to counteract that, you need to give your mind opportunities to see that things are quite expansive and quite wide and that there is beauty outside of your routine and your um desire to appear okay. Like you have to put yourself into these new environments, watch yourself grow, watch yourself experience life and joy and beauty. And see how like you come back from those days and just feel so enriched. If you want, you know, more general tips for managing depression, not specifically masked depression, I do have an entire episode called Let's Talk About Depression, very aptly titled, that I think would be super, super useful. And I
47:17 Jemma Sbeg? I would direct you to go listen to that because it's just, there's so much more information in there. But for now, we are actually going to take another short break. And when we return, we have everyone's favorite segment. Our listener questions, including some questions from you all on how to take care of a partner with masked depression. Um, high functioning burnout, how it shows up in relationships and how to get yourself to act when you know what you should be doing. So all of that and more very, very shortly.
47:51 Jemma Sbeg? There's this moment in your twenties where you realise, oh, no one is double checking my finances for me anymore. It's just me, my bank account and a growing list of, wait, I forgot I subscribed to that. And honestly, that can feel overwhelming. So you could look into Bank of America Advantage Safe Balance Banking. It's perfect for this stage of life where you're figuring things out as you go. There are no overdraft item fees, and if you are under 25, there's no monthly maintenance fee, which just makes it easier to stay on track. What stands out is that it doesn't try to overcomplicate things. It's not about being perfect with money. It's about having a system that helps you feel a little more in control. What's more, with Safe Balance Banking, you could enroll in
48:36 Jemma Sbeg? B of A Rewards and enjoy cash back deals plus fraud and identity monitoring. If you are in that phase of, I'm trying to get my life together financially, Bank of America Advantage Safe Balance Banking is a really solid place to start. Learn more at BofA.com/simplebanking. Member FDIC. I've been approaching my health really differently this year. I used to be really focused on maximizing and doing more. And now I'm just realising that if I listen to what my body needs, I perform way better. And that's why I am obsessed with my Whoop. Truly, you guys, you know I'm such a data and information driven person, and I love opening my Whoop app and seeing
49:20 Jemma Sbeg? how my sleep, my stress, my strain is correlating with my mood, with my running performance, with how I'm just feeling day to day. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I do really benefit. And I also just really enjoy knowing more about my body. And Whoop also gives me these actionable, personalised insights that have made me more intentional and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark.
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50:39 Jemma Sbeg? So we've been trialling out this new section of the podcast where we invite listeners to send in specific questions on Instagram. You can follow me at that psychology podcast and I've been loving it. And I think you guys have been enjoying it as well, you know. I think it allows people to really ask the questions that they're interested in and ask more niche questions. Obviously, the podcast episodes, we do try and go into detail and in depth, but it is quite general. If you have specific questions based on what you're going through or what you're seeing in your community or just some like unique piece of research, like I love to be able to answer that in the show rather than waiting till afterwards to get your feedback. But of course, this is still in the early days, so
51:25 Jemma Sbeg? if you like it, if you don't like it, please let me know in the comments below. If, you know, everyone says, okay, we don't like the listener questions, we're done with those. We will of course stop, but I'm hoping that you are enjoying it. So the only way to know is if you tell me. So I'd love to hear what you think about this segment. Without further ado, though, let's talk about the questions that we got this week because they were so fantastic. And they also followed some really amazing themes. So the first question I chose came from a listener asking, "My boyfriend of three years confided in me that he has depression and I've definitely seen signs over the years, but he is very secretive about it and keeps a brave face.
52:08 Jemma Sbeg? He is also quite successful and he works in finance and he has a lot of friends and plays footsle and sport, but when he's struggling, he withdraws even from me. How do I help him?" Let me firstly acknowledge that being the partner of someone with mass depression can be very emotionally difficult and distressing. Not because there's anything wrong with that person, but because I know that if you could, you would do anything to take that pain away. I, I know that. I know that you wanna help them in every fibre of your being. And you also just wanna understand what they're experiencing. Like you would fight any battle if you knew what was going on. But for people with mass depression, it's very hard to let others in, not because,
52:52 Jemma Sbeg? you know, they don't like you, they don't love you, not because they don't want to, but because they're so used to taking care of themselves and keeping it very, very private. And I know on the outside, it looks like they're shutting you out and they don't trust you. I promise that's not the case. In fact, I think they just don't want you to take on any of the pain. Like they're trying not to burden you as well. The biggest recommendation I would have, um, as someone who is the partner in my situation, is to just do things without having them ask you to do them that will make their life easier. So don't ask, do you want me to do your laundry for you? Don't ask, do you want me to cook tonight? Do you want me to organise that thing you've been putting off?
53:37 Jemma Sbeg? Don't give them the option to say no, because they will always say no, because they don't wanna bother you. Just do it for them. You know, they're not gonna ask for help, but they secretly do kind of want it and need it. Now, it doesn't mean that you're fixing things for them. It doesn't need that you need to become their caretaker. Just small things that you can see are really like causing them stress. They're not going, like, they're not gonna ask you to do it for them. Just take the initiative and, and step in where you feel capable. I'd also really encourage you to do fun things with your partner, even if sometimes they don't wanna do them. You know, they'll be happy when they finally, like when they're there,
54:20 Jemma Sbeg? even if they feel exhausted in the moment. Um, plan those micro adventures for them. Ask them on a date, you know, surprise them with a picnic or something fun. And my boyfriend does this for me and it's so helpful in making me feel excited by my life because, you know, it's a surprise. I don't always have the mental energy to plan these things myself. And then I just get to do it with my favourite person in the world and it's so incredible. My final tip as well, and this one I hope hopefully goes without saying, but I am gonna say it anyways. Please take care of yourself. You know, you don't need to do everything for them. You don't need to find a solution. You also don't need to give every part of yourself to make sure they're okay.
55:04 Jemma Sbeg? At the end of the day, and I know people will disagree with me here, but you do come first. In every situation, you do come first. You should be your own first priority, so it's okay to take space. It's okay to also communicate your needs, even if it feels like their mental burden is bigger or more worthwhile than yours. That's not the case. Like you also have needs and have struggles of your own that deserve to be appreciated. So here is question two for today's episode. How can you tell the difference between long-term high functioning or mass depression and just being burnt out? This one is tricky. Honestly, I think they sometimes feel the same at times.
55:47 Jemma Sbeg? You could even have both at the same time because burnout isn't just physical, it's mental and emotional as well. And it can actually lead to a depressed state or trigger a depressive episode. Um, I think the biggest way to tell the difference is whether it's exhaustion or a lack of interest that you're experiencing. And whether the exhaustion is being met with consistent, persistent sadness. So with burnout, it's often like you're just so tired that you can't do anything, but you still kind of want to. And you still kind of want the opportunity, but you know, with depression, it's like, yes, you're exhausted because you're mentally drained.
56:26 Jemma Sbeg? But you also have no desire sometimes to even, like you have no desire to do the things that you would normally want to do. You have no desire to become more motivated. You have no desire to, you know, be social. But with burnout, you're like, I really wish I could do those things. I just can't. Here are some good questions as well to tell the difference. So do you feel better after a break? If yes, that's probably burnout. Has this lasted for months or years, even with changes in a routine, in your routine? If yes, that's probably masked depression. Do you still care about things even if you don't have energy? If yes, burnout. Do you feel indifferent to things that you once loved?
57:09 Jemma Sbeg? If yes, masked depression. I also think, you know, taking care of yourself will be similar for both of these things. So you might find that just acting on one may eliminate the other or may um help. So you don't always need to know whether it's burnout or depression immediately. The main things of um getting rest, of pulling back from things that are stressing you out or additional responsibilities. The main objective of offloading tasks and asking for help and going easy from your easy on yourself, like that's gonna be the same regardless of what situation you're in. So yeah, approach that way. Okay, our final question for the day.
57:51 Jemma Sbeg? I know I have high functioning depression and I know what I need to do to feel better and get to a better place, but I can't bring myself to do it. How do I motivate myself when all my energy is going to just trying to stay afloat? Firstly, I'm so sorry you're feeling this way. I know it must be so frustrating for you when you push yourself so hard in every other area of your life and it can feel very hopeless when it comes to this very big hurdle. The best thing I can recommend you do that's worked for me is to just pick one thing at a time to improve. If you are an overachiever, we tend to put everything on the list, right? You know, we acknowledge, okay, I have depression, I'm feeling terrible, I need to act on this.
58:36 Jemma Sbeg? And if I have to act, I have to do a million things right now to change my life, to change my attitude, to feel better, to get help. That can lead you to feel very overwhelmed because your perfectionism kicks in. You know, if I can't do all of it, I should do none of it. And you get overwhelmed by where to start because everything is suddenly equally important. So what we need to focus on is just one change for every two weeks. So the first two weeks, I just want you to focus on, okay, I'm gonna put all my energy, the limited energy I have, to seeing a doctor. Who's gonna help me find a therapist in that second, that second chapter? And then after that, my next task is gonna be reaching out. And I'm gonna give myself a couple of days, a couple of weeks to do that. So I don't feel overwhelmed.
59:22 Jemma Sbeg? Then when I'm ready, I'm gonna start implementing behavioral changes. When I'm ready, I'm gonna start booking appointments. Then I'm gonna start journaling once a week. But we are going slow. We are making small incremental changes that tend to snowball into much bigger results. So just seeing your life as the next two weeks, what can you do in the next two weeks? That are gonna make you feel better in the moment. You don't have to think about the long term. You don't have to be obsessed with curing yourself or getting everything done. I just want you to focus on one thing at a time and just don't overwhelm yourself. And you will get there slowly and surely. So I think this is all we have time for today.
1:00:07 Jemma Sbeg? Um, I know it's been a long episode, so thank you if you have made it this far. You guys know I always love to drop a little emoji hint for the loyal listeners amongst you who get to this point. So today I want you to leave an emoji of your favorite animal. I don't know why I chose that. It just seems fun. It seems appropriate. It seems a little bit lighthearted, uh, given how heavy this episode was. So yes, drop your favorite animal as an emoji below. Remember there are also resources listed in the description, ways to access help, further ways to educate yourself, whether you are someone with mass depression or someone helping a loved one. And I just wanna send you a lot of love and healing.
1:00:51 Jemma Sbeg? Like, I know this is very difficult. Whatever is drawing you to this episode today and drawing you to listen this far, I'm sure it is, can sometimes feel quite heavy. So, um, I'm with you in that pain. I'm with you in that struggle. I've been there and I can say that we do get better and life does feel amazing again. And If you unmask and if you let people in, it just gets so much lighter. So I really, I really want that for you. But until next time, my lovely, lovely listeners, make sure you are following me on Instagram at that psychology podcast. Make sure you preorder my book. It comes out in less than a month and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it when you finally get a copy. And until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself,
1:01:36 Jemma Sbeg? and we will talk very, very soon.
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1:02:25 Jemma Sbeg? something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop, because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day, why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress, and most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns so I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop.
1:03:06 Jemma Sbeg? This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know, they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favourite gym clothing at gymshark.com.
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