Ella Purnell - ‘Therapy changed my life’

TW: self-harm You might know Ella from her leading roles in the hit TV show ‘Yellowjackets’ or Amazon Prime’s ‘Fallout’. She’s been acting since she was a child (and is still absurdly young tbf) and bears the notable distinction of having played the younger versions of Keira Knightly, Margot Robbie and Angeline Jolie on-screen. What a thruple! At 28, she is wise beyond her years and on her way to stellar success. We talk about being realistic about perfectionism, how to stop caring about negative voices and how she overcame her own mental health struggles. ‘Sweatpea’ is out now on Sky Atlantic and Now TV. If you’ve been affected by any of the issues raised by our discussion on Trichotillomania (hair pulling disorder) or self-harm, you can find more resources here. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com NEW HOW TO FAIL WITH ELIZABETH DAY PRESENTED BY HAYU LIVE TOUR DATE Friday 28th March 2025 – The London Barbican Pre-sale: Thursday 14 November On Sale: Friday 15 November Go to: www.fane.co.uk/how-to-fail Production & Post Production Manager: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole and Josh Gibbs Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things we talk about a lot on How to Fail is how difficult it can be to take that first step, and starting a business is no exception. With Black Friday approaching, it's a great time to turn an idea into reality. Shopify makes launching an online store easier with ready-made themes and AI-powered tools, including Sidekick, its AI assistant, which helps you set up your shop and plan promotions without needing coding skills. Whether you're exploring a new venture or finally acting on an idea you've had for years, Shopify gives you the tools and support to get started with confidence and make the most of the busy shopping season. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.co.uk/fail

• 0:45Elizabeth Day?

  to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first...

• 1:07Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that believes, as Truman Capote did, that failure is the condiment that gives success its flavour. Before we get to our guest today, I wanted to mention our subscriber podcast, Failing with Friends, where my guest and I answer your questions and offer advice on some of your failures too. Here's a bit of Ella Purnell.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  I think that it's painful when you see a friendship end, and if there's any way you can hold on to those memories and the experiences that friendship gave you as a gift, and focus on the ways it's helped you grow and change as a person, and be thankful for those things, instead of focusing on the end, that would be helpful. And also give it time.

• 1:52Elizabeth Day?

  Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes and you can send me an email or look out for my callouts once a month on Instagram for quickfire questions. And I've got some very, very exciting news because my How To Fail tour in spring next year has added a whole new London date on March the 28th, 2025, in London's Barbican Centre. Pre-sale for Friends of Fane starts this Thursday, November the 14th, and the tickets go on general sale on Friday, November the 15th. If you want to book, head to www.fane,

• 2:28Elizabeth Day?

  that's F A N E dot co dot U K. I hope to see you there. And now here's Ella. At 28, the actor Ella Purnell has already amassed a CV that would look impressive belonging to a person double her age. Her TV roles include the ill-fated Jackie in Yellow Jackets and the plucky but naive Lucy McLean in Fallout, Amazon Prime's second most-watched series of all time. On the big screen, she's worked with director Tim Burton in Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children and played the younger Keira Knightley in Never Let Me Go.

• 3:09Elizabeth Day?

  Her American accent is so convincing that you might not know she was born and raised in East London, the daughter of a yoga teacher mother and a businessman father. She started modelling at two, booked her first commercial at eight, and took weekly acting classes at the Sylvia Young Theatre School. At 12, she spent a year in the cast of Oliver in the West End. Her latest project, which Purnell also executive-produced, sees her starring in Sky Atlantic's Sweet Pea, a dark comedy-drama which tells the story of Rhiannon, a receptionist who, fed up of being ignored, bullied, and underestimated, finally snaps.

• 3:52Elizabeth Day?

  The loss of control leads to Rhiannon discovering her own sense of self, but not before she's killed someone. It's a fascinating role, and one which demonstrates Purnell's conscious choice to take on parts which surprise and challenge. This refusal to be typecast has won her much acclaim. She was recently given the Madame Figaro Rising Star Award at the 2024 Cannes Series Festival.

• 4:20Elizabeth Day?

  I really have worked very hard in the last 10 years to create the life that I want, rather than living the life that was set out for me, Purnell says. And they're two very different things. Ella Purnell, welcome to How to Fail.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Hi, thanks for having me.

• 4:37Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you for being here.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  That was such a lovely little intro, thank you.

• 4:41Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I didn't have enough time to put in all of your numerous credits. You, you have been working so hard, all of your life, really.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, well, thanks. Not hard work if you're having fun.

• 4:52Elizabeth Day?

  True, true. That's what we all have to say.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  That's what we all have to say sometimes at five in the morning on a, yeah, on a rainy Tuesday, don't we?

• 5:00Elizabeth Day?

  What was the life that you think was set out for you, rather than the life that you've worked hard to live?

• 5:06Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know how different they would have looked, aside from the fact that I just didn't, I wouldn't have had any autonomy. I think that it's very difficult to be happy when you're passive in your own life. I think happiness comes from being empowered and emboldened to make your own choices. It comes from making mistakes and learning from those mistakes, even though those mistakes might not make you happy in the moment. Looking back, they made you happy because it shows freedom and choice, which is so important for the human experience, I think.

• 5:36Elizabeth Day?

  I don't want to embarrass you by stating boldly that you're phenomenally beautiful, but I am going to do that.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  You're very sweet. Back at you. Thank you.

• 5:44Elizabeth Day?

  Stop. But you, you are, and I wonder how difficult it was for you to, to stop being typecast. Were you constantly being given roles as like the hot girlfriend?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  There was a lot of the hot girlfriend, a lot of the, um, a lot of the sort of like damsel in distress type thing, you know. I mean, but I do think that's just like all young women go through a phase where that is sort of the only part that's available to you. And, um, it was always just more interesting to me to be like the funny one or the kind of gross one or to put on like a bad wig and, you know, just do something different and interesting and. I think that's kind of how I am in my real life is like really quite silly.

• 6:29Elizabeth Day?

  Let's talk about Sweet Pea, which I was riveted by. I don't know if you ever watched a movie called Falling Down, which was Michael Douglas in the main part. And it's about a man who snaps and gives into his rage. But it's an examination of specific male rage, I would say. And for me, I thought Sweet Pea was so interesting because it was about female rage that is often masked by sadness. Can you tell us what drew you to that theme?

• 7:00Speaker 01

  You know, it's an almost all female creative team behind it. And it's not something that we ever really talked about or considered. Cause it sort of seems so universally understood behind the scenes. We all, we all obviously knew what it was. We didn't really need to do it. It seemed so obvious. And it's funny because we just called it rage because we're all women and we didn't feel the need to specify the difference between our rage and, and regular male rage. But yet there is obviously inherently huge differences. Something I really related to Rhiannon about is the fact that as women, we have to be so careful about how we express our anger.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  So as not to appear hysterical or emotional. We have to be so careful about the way that we ask for what we want and what we need so that we're not shrill or demanding or bossy. All of these, you know, gender specific words that we don't use for men, obviously. And with Rhiannon, it manifests in this sort of simmering rage that is under the surface. And the whole way through the first episode of this show, it should feel like this pressure is building. It's a tight wire that is just gonna snap at any given moment. Um, and she can't stand up for herself. She doesn't have the confidence, um, you know, really the self-esteem to say what she wants and how she feels and to say, excuse me, man spreader on the bus, would you please close your legs? Anything like that, she can't say, she just smiles through it.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  And that smiling through the pain is, I think, such a relatable thing for, I mean, a lot of people, especially women.

• 8:34Elizabeth Day?

  Definitely. And I think. You do a great job of telling that story so that by the time she stabs a man, I'm like, I'm totally with her. That, that makes complete logical sense to me.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  I know, it's so funny. Some of the comments have been like, I support women's wrongs. As well as women's rights. And that is, that's good. That's kind of what we wanted to do is. Another thing I was excited about was the challenge of doing Female Dexter. Feel empathy for her, relate to her emotions and her experiences without obviously relating to her actions and what she does. That's just harder with a woman than it is a man. It is because we all subconsciously judge women more harshly than we do men, even the women, even the allies, even the feminists. It's, it's put into us by society from birth. It's what we're all trained and conditioned to do subconsciously. So it was important to us to have that first episode where you see her

• 9:27Speaker 01

  really, really going through it. You see how invisible she is. People don't notice her. They don't see her. So that when we get to that snap moment at the end, um, her first kill, we almost are kind of, you know, yes, we don't support murder. However, there is a part of us really is glad she's at least doing something. She's taking agency in her life, uh, for better or for worse, obviously for worse.

• 9:51Elizabeth Day?

  When do you think you have felt underestimated? What experiences did you draw from as the actress?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  I think they just happen to women all the time. It's as simple as like, having worked on my house at the moment and my male friend was over at the house hanging out. And, um, the electrician came in and just spoke to him the whole time about the work. I'm the one that paid for it. I'm the one that made the calls, sent the emails. This guy doesn't know anything about the house. It's not his house. And it's just tiny things like that when you, you just get so frustrated. And of course I can't go, hello, talk to me, because that would be rude. And I would probably get labelled something that if it was a guy who'd said that, it'd probably be a funny joke. So you have to very politely just kind of smile. And there's no, you know, we're not given the tools and the vocabulary to say.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Hi, it's my house, actually. He doesn't live here. It happens so frequently that you just get, you just smile through it and it's sort of just, you don't even think about it. It's just become normalized that that is just something that's going to happen because you're a woman.

• 10:57Elizabeth Day?

  Well, talking of women, you bear the notable distinction of having played younger versions on screen of Keira Knightley, Margot Robbie and Angelina Jolie.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  I know, I don't know how that's happened.

• 11:09Elizabeth Day?

  Which is amazing because they, they look very different and yet when I look at your face, I can totally see elements of all of them.

• 11:17Elizabeth Day?

  And I know that Keira Knightley is still something of a mentor to you, isn't she?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Keira and I worked together very closely and that was my first ever film I did, Never Let Me Go, and I was twelve, maybe, twelve years old. And she's just the most gracious, kind, sweet, considerate human. You know, she started acting very young, really looked out for us. And we worked together quite closely, it was really interesting. So it was three, three youngers and it was Keira Knightley, Carey Mulligan, Andrew Garfield. I mean, it was amazing cast, come on, crazy. And we worked together a lot to try to be the same character, be the same person, you know, talking about little mannerisms we would have in common. We read each other's scenes sometimes, mix and match the cast.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  So getting to watch her and learn from her up close as an actor, as well as like a young person, just really who loved boats of the Caribbean, it was incredible. And she always gave me the time of day, really, really nice person.

• 12:15Elizabeth Day?

  So nice. I interviewed her once in my previous incarnation as a print journalist and she was so great, exactly as you described, turned up on her own, wolfed down a croissant, wore an amazing like denim jumpsuit. Final question before we get on to your failures is about exec producing, which you did on Sweet Pea. Given what we've just discussed about the electrician ignoring you in your own house, how empowering was that role?

• 12:40Speaker 01

  I wouldn't have done it unless it felt really right. You know what I mean? Like, I've wanted to be on the other side of camera for ages. I directed a couple, or I directed a short, produced a couple of shorts and wanted to do it in a way that I felt that I could contribute fully, either with a project I cared deeply, deeply about, or a character I really understood. And it just felt like one of those wonderful kismet things. And they completely, I didn't want like a vanity credit. I didn't want to be like an actor-producer who doesn't really do it. I really wanted to get stuck in. I wanted to be in the writers' room, I wanted to be on the recce, I wanted to get involved. Not all of us are always the best behaved, so I do get it. But we get treated like children a lot of the time. You know, people kind of coddle us and like calm us down and say what they think we want to hear. And I hate that, it really bothers me.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  And I get it, there's this insane hierarchy on set where we're treated ridiculously well for absolutely no reason at all, when the crew are the ones who are working a million hours and they're underpaid. No, it's stupid, I think it's so stupid. But they always, always just treated me like a creative, collaborative person. And they didn't sort of, I don't know, condescend me in any way or make me feel like I didn't earn my place in that room. It's a slightly, it's dying out now, it's slightly older. But there is a little bit of a connotation that actors are stupid. Sometimes we get treated like we're stupid and we're really not. And they never made me feel like that, they always embraced me and included me. You know, we all just want what's best for the character. We all want what's best for the show and for the story.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  And Rhiannon was always our north star, making this character as authentically truthful as possible. And I think that's what kind of encouraged me and gave me the tools and the vocabulary to actually stand up for myself when I felt like I needed to and advocate for the character, advocate for myself and pitch my own ideas in an environment that otherwise could be quite scary.

• 14:28Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Do you think you learnt that you loved working in teams or you learnt how to stand up for yourself in a kind of collaborative group effort from Yellowjackets? Because I know that that was a very special experience in terms of the friendships you formed.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Definitely. I mean, I think it's a little bit on every job, actually. It's like kind of 10%. You can't, you grow like 10% as a person on every experience. I remember Sweet Bitter was a really formative one for me because I was 20, moved to New York on my own and didn't know anyone. And it was my first time doing TV. It was my first time working in the States. It was my first time doing a lot of things, but my first time doing any like sex scenes or really any grown up role. And not just playing a teenager or a child. And I was terrified. It was also my first time being the lead in a show, being number one of the call sheet, which is a massive responsibility. And I'd obviously been lucky enough to to learn from so many people. I

• 15:25Speaker 01

  really wanted to be a good leader who advocated for others. That was something that was really ingrained in me. Um, and so that was some, that was a time that I really learned how to say, no, guys, we can't break the turnaround. The crew have worked insanely long. They've been up since four in the morning. Got to protect this crew, my friends, my family. It's hard. It's it's really hard and you're scared. And there's also this thing that child actors are taught is like, you'll do anything it takes to be employed. Jeanette McCurdy wrote this incredible book I'm obsessed with.

• 15:59Elizabeth Day?

  Loved it. I'm glad my lung died. Incredible.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I love that book. And and there's so much stuff she said about being a child actor that even me on like a much, much smaller scale. Obviously, I did not have, you know, nowhere near the experiences she had, but I could still relate to a lot of the things she said. And she said something about being a child actor and just molding yourself. Any which way to be the most employable version of yourself and not be difficult. Being a young girl who was a child actor, not being difficult is the biggest thing. And to unlearn that, that people pleasing aspect of the industry and be like, actually, I'm really sorry. I know you guys need the shot, but nothing is more important than everyone here's health and safety. And sometimes it's easier to stand up for other people than yourself. So that was definitely the first building block for me saying.

• 16:45Elizabeth Day?

  Wow, that's so interesting. And actually, it leads us on to one of your failures. So I'm going to reverse the order slightly. Because when you wrote it to me, it was it was number two. But it is that you failed yourself for a number of years by consistently prioritizing other people's needs and happiness above your own. So clearly that relates to to being a child actor and wanting to please. Did it relate to other areas of your life, personally speaking?

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it stayed with me a really long time. It's something I'm still unlearning. It's an interesting relationship I have with my work where, you know, obviously I started acting when I was eight. And going into auditions, you know, it's so competitive. It's such an unusual, uncomfortable, unhealthy environment, auditioning as a child. I mean, God, we need to help these kids. Like, it's awful. They get all of these young teenage girls in a room. Everyone's competitive. The mums are all competitive. Everyone's nervous. We're all eyeing each other up. And by the way, it's like that scene out of La La Land where everyone looks exactly the same. You know, when Emma Stone comes out of the room and all the girls look like her.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  And there's this, this thing of like, God, no wonder women are just constantly pitted against each other. It's ingrained in us from being really young in our industry and and then when you get employed, you know, you'd never say, actually, I don't want to do that because then you're labeled. It's difficult to work with. You won't ever be employed and you hear these stories, I'm sure are not true, but it's just told to you, it's sort of myths of like deep lore about young actresses that said they weren't going to eat that, weren't going to do that, and they never worked again. And you're terrified you're going to be that person. So you just do whatever. You say yes all the time. You know, you get to eighteen, nineteen, twenty and the stakes are different.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  You know, suddenly you're getting offered nudity scenes or raunchy scenes or scenes where you have to kiss someone or act out a violent scene. Or maybe use language that you're not comfortable with, or wear something that you're not comfortable with. I went to like photo shoots at fifteen, sixteen, and they'd pull out like a bra and knickers. I cannot say no. And thank God I have an incredible team around me and an amazing mum who are there to advocate for me. But not everyone has that. Not everyone has good people on their side. And it really, my heart hurts for all the people that don't feel like they can say no. It's a scary thing, the first time you say no to something that makes you uncomfortable. And I really did genuinely think, I'm never going to work again.

• 19:12Elizabeth Day?

  Do you remember when that was, the first time you said that no?

• 19:15Speaker 01

  It was a bit of nudity in the script and it was my first time ever being asked. And I was just so young and I just didn't want to do it. And I was not comfortable with my body and I was not comfortable with. You know, that I would have been acting the scene with multiple people, by the way, not just one person. Luckily, my fear in that moment and my insecurity outweighed my need to ever work again. I genuinely was like, all right, this is it. My career is over, but I just can't be naked on screen. I just can't. I will die of embarrassment. And no, and I've done nudity since then, and it was empowering and it was amazing. And I felt confident and I'm proud of myself for doing what I did. But and I'm and I'm,

• 19:56Speaker 01

  I don't know if I would have had a good relationship with my body today if I had done it then. I would have just been too insecure. I'm really glad that I said no. I'm really glad that my fear won that time.

• 20:07Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, that's so powerful. Sometimes fear and anger, they're your internal protection mechanisms.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 20:15Elizabeth Day?

  Uh, well done for saying no.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 20:17Elizabeth Day?

  I'm proud of younger Ella.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 20:25Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become

• 21:06Elizabeth Day?

  manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail.

• 21:26Elizabeth Day?

  You say that you're still a work in progress, you're still unlearning this people pleasing tic. By the way, so am I.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  I don't know if ever, does it ever go away?

• 21:34Elizabeth Day?

  I don't know. I think potentially when you're in your 80s, if you're lucky enough to get that, maybe then.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  I can't wait.

• 21:41Elizabeth Day?

  It definitely gets better, definitely, because, well, my experience is, is that I know myself better. And you've taken more risks and you've said more no's and you've survived them. And actually, you realise that they're really empowering. And so all of that is like learned experience that you can put in the bank.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:57Elizabeth Day?

  But I wonder how difficult it is when you are as recognised as you are, when you do have this massive Instagram following, when you are on this hugely popular series on Amazon. Is it difficult to separate that from your need to be liked? Because trying to be liked by all that many, those many millions must be impossible.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  I talk about it all the time, I think about it all the time. It's something I've had to reckon with a lot. And number one, there is this need that still exists in me all the time to justify myself. When you say no to something, or you get misunderstood, or rumours circulate, I still want to go on the internet and write, actually, and I want to defend myself. Because it's frustrating being misunderstood. And more than that, I don't want to be disliked. Nobody wants to be disliked. And anybody who, you know, is in the public eye is going to be disliked. This is my word of the year is surrender. I can't control anything.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  You do, at a certain point, when you're in the public eye, become public property. And there is the version of me that exists out there, the version of me that is perceived by other people, that is not the version of me that I am. And nobody knows me, except for my friends and my family. And so therefore, it can't get to me. It can get to that person, but she doesn't have any feelings because she's not real. It's a figment of everybody's imagination. It's their projected image. It doesn't exist. It's, it looks different for all of those people. And as long as my inner life is rich, and I have incredible friends, incredible family. I have great experiences, I eat good food, I know what I like and I love my little

• 23:44Speaker 01

  life, then that's all that matters. You know, it's a very long-winded way of saying, don't listen to the haters, but it's hard. Of course you read the comments, of course you see the things, of course you hear what people shout you on the street and it's horrible and it does, it does affect you, but you just have to think, that's not me. Whoever they're talking about is a different person.

• 24:01Elizabeth Day?

  You're so wise. I think sometimes when you hear this advice, you feel like you have to be entirely impervious and just let it all bounce off you, otherwise you're failing. But I love that idea that the projected image, she can deal with that because it's not you. I find that very helpful.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't have to defend myself. Like, it's so much energy and I'd rather put that energy into people that really deserve it and the things that I really love.

• 24:28Elizabeth Day?

  People shout at you in the street?

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, it's happened.

• 24:31Elizabeth Day?

  Like mean stuff?

• 24:32Speaker 01

  All the time. Sometimes they're just shouting words or names or lines from shows. I get a lot of people saying mean things about my eyes. It doesn't affect me, it doesn't bother me. Sometimes in some lights, my eyes look really creepy and sometimes in some lights, my eyes look really good and gorge. It's all perspective. Everyone contains maladies, everyone looks good and bad. It depends on the perspective, on the day, how much sleep you've had. And it just doesn't, like, why does any of it matter? I guess that's where I'm at now.

• 25:03Elizabeth Day?

  Right now, I'm hypnotized by your eyes, which are like two of the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen. Okay, so just put that on the record. That brings us back to the character of Rhiannon, because I do think you do a great job of portraying that duality on screen. She does visibly seem to inhabit herself and her looks the more powerful she becomes. And she also does something, which I wonder if you can relate to, because you have been so courageous and generous in the past and spoken about your own mental health journey. And Rhiannon pulls her hair. She's got this obsessive compulsion to pull her hair because she's bullied at school. I know that you've spoken about your years of self-harm. Did you see a correlation between those two things?

• 25:47Speaker 01

  I did in the sense that they're both compulsive behaviours. So I did a lot of research into the hair pulling, which is called trichotillomania. And it affects so many people, way more people than you'd than you'd than you'd think. And a lot of people describe it as it's almost a form of OCD. It's a compulsive thing that you don't even necessarily realise that you're doing. And I I had that with with self harm. It wasn't always as sort of graphic or violent as you'd imagine. Sometimes it's as simple as digging your nails into yourself or pinching your own skin or just doing small, tiny acts of violence, small, tiny acts of pain. It's subconscious, I suppose, is the right word for it. So sometimes when we were mapping out when Rhiannon's hands would go to her hair,

• 26:32Speaker 01

  something that Ella did, our director, which I thought was really cool, was sometimes sometimes you'd cut to her and her hands would already be in her hair. You wouldn't see her hands go up there. You're not making a big plot point about it every time. It's just something that she lives with, it's something that she does. And that's something that we talked about a lot was like, I didn't want it to be this big dramatic thing that like was overplayed. It is something that there is a thought or a feeling that every time Rhiannon has or feels, she impulsively pulls. Whether that's being maybe feeling worthless or feeling overlooked, you know, invisible or anything like that.

• 27:08Elizabeth Day?

  Because a lot of parents listen to this podcast and some teenagers. And I know parents who have struggled to understand when their teen is self harming in some way. And I wonder if you could give one piece of advice or one piece of explanation to the parents listening, what would it be?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  The first thing I would say is that the biggest misconception with self harm is that people do it for attention. And that is very rarely, if ever, the case. A compulsive urge to hurt yourself or harm yourself very rarely comes from what other people see. It's more about how you feel about yourself. And it can be really, really damaging. It's so painful for a kid to go through, speaking from experience. And when you do look for support or open up about your experiences, to be told that you're doing it for attention because you're you're seeking something from other people, validation from other people.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  All that's gonna do is push that person further and deeper inside themselves and make them never wanna ask for help ever again. And there's so many fantastic resources out there. Young Minds is an amazing charity that I work with that offers so many different resources for parents and for young people, everyone really. There's tons of other ones. Mind is another good one. I would say probably try to learn as much as you can before you talk to your kids so that you can come in maybe with the right language and a gentle, a gentle technique, you know?

• 28:45Elizabeth Day?

  And we'll link to those in the show notes. Thank you, Ella. Final question on this. How do you feel about yourself now?

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Feel really good and I'm so glad I'm finally here. I never ever thought I'd be this okay, ever. I had so many issues growing up. I really struggled with a lot of panic attacks, a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression. And that lasted a really long time. I was really in and out of it for years, probably up until twenty-three, twenty-four. And therapy changed my life. It wasn't easy and it didn't come for nothing. But I'm really happy. And I think the key thing is this might be what self-confidence and self-esteem is built off. I like myself. I'm proud of the way I behave. And so therefore, it's like, I'm okay. I can

• 29:36Speaker 01

  sleep well at night. What you think or say about me doesn't bother me. Saying no to things I'm not comfortable with. I know I'm a good person and I know I'm doing my best. And so that, and so I feel all right. I'm happy.

• 29:50Elizabeth Day?

  Beautiful. Your second failure is that you failed your friends and family on countless occasions. What do you mean by this?

• 29:59Speaker 01

  I prioritized work over everything else in my life for such a long time. I missed birthdays, I missed weddings, I missed... Engagement parties, graduation ceremonies, so much stuff. And I'll never be able to get those back. I'll never, I'll never be able to fix those things. And it was a mistake and I, and I really did feel like the worst friend in the world. And my friends have always been so, I do not deserve them. Like, they have been so unconditionally loving and supportive. Not all of them, a few of them told me where to go and rightfully so, because I, I was badly behaved and I did not value them or appreciate them as I, as I should have.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  And that's a failure on my part because I just had this workaholicism that I think I developed from being a child actor probably and, and from maybe not understanding that my worth is linked to not what I do, but who I am. So for a long time I were like I had something to prove, probably because I did have something to prove. Um, and it wasn't making me happy. It really wasn't. It got to a point where I was like, great, I'm doing really well in work, but like, who have I got to share it with? You know, and I, and now I, my friendships are the most important thing to me. My family is, it, it's, it's the pillar of who I am. And I actually don't want it with, if I can't have them. I don't want any of it.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  But I'd rather not have the career that I have right now and still have my friends and my family. I'll do anything else to have them because it's the most important thing.

• 31:28Elizabeth Day?

  When did you start wanting to act? Because you were acting from a very young age, but how conscious were you that it's what you wanted to do?

• 31:36Speaker 01

  I never thought about doing this at twenty eight years old. And it wasn't really until I was about fifteen, sixteen, and all my friends talking about what uni they were going to go to and what they wanted to be when they grew up. I was like, oh gosh, what am I gonna do? And I really was racking my brains about what I was gonna do. My mom was like, well, you're gonna be an actor. And there was always this sort of voice in the back of my head that was like, do I want to be an actor? Or is this just something that I'm gonna do because I'm already doing it? I'd like to make that choice on my own. I'd like to be an actor because I want to be an actor. So I had to think about it for a couple of years. And I fell in and out of love with acting a million times. I changed my mind a million times. I wanted to be a writer and I wanted to be a teacher. And I did do all of those other jobs. I was, as I was acting and I was at school, I was also, I was a drama teacher. I was a piano teacher. I was a

• 32:21Speaker 01

  math tutor. I don't know how, because I'm terrible at maths. I tried all of these different things. I got a place at uni to do creative writing. And then I did, um, a Miss Perrigan's Home for Pejorative Children with Tim Burton. And Tim Burton has always been one of my heroes. I didn't know I could get jobs like that. I didn't know I could do it. And I was like, wow, I actually had a goal and I achieved it. I I thought about what kind of actor I'd be and what kind of actors I liked. Helen Boncarter, number one favourite. I thought about what directors I liked and what movies I liked. Edward C. Hanson, Tim Burton were like number one on top of the list. And then I actually got to work with him and it blew my mind. And I thought, well, hang on, if I can do that, maybe I will be an actor. And I kind of fell back in love with it on my own terms,

• 33:04Speaker 01

  which was necessary. Otherwise, I don't think I would still be doing it.

• 33:07Elizabeth Day?

  How do you manage, for instance, friendship when your schedule is probably out of sync with a lot of other people's? It's probably very intense.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  It's colour coordinated, is what it is.

• 33:20Elizabeth Day?

  Is it colour coordinated? Okay, okay. So yeah, tell me how you manage it and how you've managed it with your friends? How you've communicated this to them?

• 33:29Speaker 01

  I think it's about saying no and prioritising and restructuring your life in a way that makes you happy. Figure out, figure out what makes you happy and then build your life around that. I realised that way too late. There's this analogy I read that are like, if you keep soaring with a blunt blade, you're just putting in a lot of effort, but you're not really cutting the thing. You need to pull the saw out and sharpen the blade. I think about that a lot. You need to take a break. You need to say no to things, rest, refill the cup. And the way that I personally refill my cup is with friends and family.

• 34:04Elizabeth Day?

  I wonder how much of it, and maybe none of it is, related to the fact that your parents got divorced when you were quite young. And I know that a lot of children of divorced parents shuttle from house to house and feel that they have to be perfect to be lovable. Does that relate in any way?

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Not so much because they divorced when I was one, so I sort of didn't know anything else. And I I think it's more about being a child actor. I think it's more about even when I was going between parents' houses, my life really kind of revolved around going to auditions and going to acting class and doing all of that stuff. It was more about wanting to make everyone else around me really proud of me for, in my therapy sessions, I never really talk about the divorce. I talk a lot about being a child actor.

• 34:56Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, I guess because you didn't know any different, because it did happen when you were one.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  It might be different if I was older and I had had experienced my parents being together. And also, both my parents remarried when I was between the ages of five and 11. So I, for the most part, grew up with four parents. God, I had too much support, too many parents. Everyone was really supportive. I guess I just, for whatever reason, really wanted to be a good job and I could tell that they were all proud of me when I got jobs. And I suppose for a child that doesn't have the emotional maturity or even the vocabulary to really understand what's going on fully, that was like, oh, I'm doing a good job. I must continue.

• 35:39Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  I always, I always really felt very good being able to tell people, you know, calling my nan and being like, I got a movie. And it was really, it made me feel proud to make other people proud.

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• 36:27Speaker 04

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• 37:06Elizabeth Day?

  Let's get on to your final failure, which is failure to be perfect.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:10Elizabeth Day?

  And we were chatting before we started recording about the fact, you said, I bet that comes up a lot. And I said, well, less often than you think. And no man has ever stated it's one of his failures.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Which is not shocking, but not surprising.

• 37:21Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly. Tell me why you feel this as a failure.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  I don't know. Why do we feel that? Why do we feel like anything less than perfection is a failure? Because perfection, by definition, it should be impossible. It should be something that happens so rarely that when it does, it's magic. And we shouldn't expect to be able to achieve it. I have like a group of girlfriends in our twenty somethings, and we call ourselves the twenty somethings. And this comes up all the time. It's the guilt that we feel for not being perfect. And I think for me personally, it's like, I just feel guilt. I feel so much guilt. I feel guilty all the time. I feel like I'm constantly falling behind, like I'm drowning or something. It's like I can never really catch up. I

• 38:10Speaker 01

  have this image of my life where like, my inbox is on zero. And I, you know, I've got all the, my Christmas presents bought and wrapped by November. That's being generous because in, really, I'd like it done by like, August, but November's fine. I never miss a birthday. I never miss a deadline. I'm on it all the time. I know what my top four favorite films are. And I'm never going to be that person. And I just feel guilty every day.

• 38:35Elizabeth Day?

  Do you know anyone who is that person?

• 38:37Speaker 01

  No. Do they exist?

• 38:38Elizabeth Day?

  They don't exist.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  They don't, do they?

• 38:40Elizabeth Day?

  So I'm wondering what standards you're holding yourself to, because those other women in that group, twenty somethings, I'm presuming you love them and think they're great. And they must not be perfect either, because that's impossible. So there's, is there some sort of internal comparison mechanisms that is happening for you?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  My perfectionism, I think it's a form of OCD. It kind of revolves around my mind constantly. I'm constantly ruminating on my flaws and that comes from a place of lack. It comes from what's wrong with me. What can I fix next? And I think even therapy and and like, you know, working on yourself can even that can be used as a tool of like self-flagellation if you don't like yourself enough. Do you know what I mean?

• 39:23Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Because you're constantly focusing on what you don't have and what's wrong with you. I think it it can be very difficult, especially I love wellness. I'm I'm really into, as we know, therapy, mental health, working on yourself, but I also think it can be quite toxic. And if there's an, you know, it's a very, very delicate line focusing on what's wrong with me and how can I fix it? And how can I optimize my life and treat myself with the love, the respect and the compassion that I deserve?

• 39:55Elizabeth Day?

  Preach. So well expressed, so well expressed because your uniqueness and your talent comes partly from your flaws. That is what makes you you.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Love that.

• 40:09Elizabeth Day?

  And it's so beautiful and it's what this podcast is all about because when we have the courage to be open about our vulnerabilities, that's the access point for other people to connect. And that's what you do in your work. It is the ultimate act of connection with others and it helps us make sense of our lives. And so I never want you to eradicate those imperfections because they're actually the things that make you perfect for so many other people. You are perfectly imperfect.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, reframing trauma as the gift of human connection. It's a bonding thing and you become best friends. It's lovely.

• 40:46Elizabeth Day?

  What you think of as the most personal, the most shameful thing often turns out to have more universal resonance than you could ever have imagined. I think that's such a powerful place to end on. I've got a tattoo that says only connect. I know you've got loads of amazing tattoos. I want to ask you about them on failing with friends because you're staying to answer listener questions and failures.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  True.

• 41:06Elizabeth Day?

  But I have really adored chatting. I think you've got such a wise head on young shoulders.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Thanks, it's the trauma.

• 41:16Elizabeth Day?

  The trauma is your gift. Thank you so much for coming on How To Fail. And before we go, I must remember to say, Sweet Pea, which I found completely riveting. I can't wait to watch the rest of it. I've only been given a select few episodes. Sweet Pea is available on Sky and the streaming service now. Ella Purnell, thank you so much for coming on How To Fail.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 41:40Elizabeth Day?

  We heartily recommend you follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends and your enemies too. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.