125: Anxious vs. Avoidant: Breaking the Unhealthy Push-Pull Dynamic in Love With Jimmy Knowles

If you’ve ever felt like you’re too much in a relationship while your partner seems emotionally unavailable, you’re not alone. The anxious-avoidant dynamic is one of the most common (and frustrating) relationship patterns—but is it doomed, or can it actually work? In this episode, Jimmy Knowles (@jimmy_on_relationships) joins Sabrina Zohar to break down the push-pull dynamic between anxious and avoidant partners. Both Jimmy and Sabrina lean anxious, while their partners are avoidant—so they get the struggles firsthand. 🔹 Why do avoidants pull away, and what are they really thinking? 🔹 How does anxious attachment lead to self-sabotage? 🔹 Can anxious-avoidant relationships actually thrive? 🔹 The key to breaking toxic cycles and building real trust They unpack how early childhood experiences shape attachment, why anxious partners tend to people-please into resentment, and how avoidants often withdraw not out of rejection—but out of self-protection. Plus, they reveal the mindset shifts needed to stop chasing, start connecting, and build a relationship where both people feel safe. If you’ve ever felt trapped in an emotional rollercoaster, this episode is for you. 🎢 👉 Hit play now and learn how to stop the cycle for good! MERCH IS NOW AVAILABLE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Hello, my babes, hello, my baby, hello, my... Alright, I'll stop. I just, she, your girl's a musical theater girl. But anyways, babes, welcome to another episode. I'm so excited to have you. This week, we have a really special guest, a really good friend of mine and somebody I'm so excited. Jimmy Knowles, as you guys might know him, is Jimmy on Relationships. He's here. We filmed, we have an In the Trenches that's coming out later for you guys. But today, we talk about the anxious avoidant dynamic and navigating that in relationships. And I am so freaking excited for you guys to learn more from him, be introduced to him if you don't know who he is already, and just have a damn good time with us.

• 0:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Guys, don't forget, merch is out. Woo woo! It's here, it's here. I'm so excited. I don't know where my bottle is, but it's all here, babies. And I'm so grateful for you guys. Everything we made was limited edition. And don't forget, here's a new announcement that I have not really been sharing with folks is if you join a course now in perpetuity forever, we offer free monthly group coaching with Sheila, who is my personal coach. She's taking all of my clients right now. She is phenomenal and does IFS parts work and her child stuff. So please know, anytime you guys join a course, you get that now in perpetuity for life, as long as we're going to be offering them, which is the foreseeable future. So guys, please don't forget, rate, review the show, share it with a friend. Please remember, I read all the reviews, so if you don't like it, that's okay. But just remember the language that we use. And thank you for everybody. Thank you for everything.

• 1:29Sabrina Zohar?

  And thank you for allowing me to be myself and show up authentically and just build this community of people that you guys just mean so fucking much to me. And I just, that's it. I'm just grateful. So without further ado, I'll shut my mouth. Let's get right on into it, shall we?

• 1:56Sabrina Zohar?

  Jimmy.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  It's good to see you, Sabrina.

• 1:57Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm so excited to have you here. Welcome to California.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so beautiful. I love it. It's mountains. I live in Florida, for anyone that doesn't know, and it's less mountainous.

• 2:06Sabrina Zohar?

  There is less anything but a straight line.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the temperature is great here.

• 2:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, that's the only.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Similar to Florida.

• 2:13Sabrina Zohar?

  Minus the humidity.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, minus the humidity, yes.

• 2:16Sabrina Zohar?

  We became such great digital friends that this needed to happen.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  And happy birthday on the Sabrina Zohar Show.

• 2:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Yay, by the time this comes out, who knows, but yay. Okay, Jimmy, you know what, first off, before we get into anything, for anyone who doesn't know you, could you introduce yourself?

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm so sorry. My name is Jimmy Knowles. I have the pleasure of running a channel called Jimmy on Relationships. I'm so blessed to have the opportunity to talk to people. I have a passion for the health of my own relationship and the health of everyone's relationship. I realized, I've been married for 12 years, we have four kids, and I realized that relationship is, your relationship with yourself and your relationship with your partner is just one of the most important things in your entire life. And it's something that we can't take lightly. We have to be diligent and intentional and self-reflective and mature and all that stuff.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  We have to, we have to care about our relationships because the quality of your relationships most likely determines the quality of your life. I didn't, I didn't come up with that, but somebody said that and it's true. So I am so passionate about, I love learning every, everything about relationships. And I didn't know that I was a creative person, so I started to realize that all this stuff that I was learning, my wife and I were going to counseling and I was reading books by John Gottman and Sue Johnson and Esther Perel and all these big names. And, and I was like, I don't think enough people know about. How to have a healthy relationship. I sure didn't. I didn't. I didn't know. I mean, when I look back at all the things I didn't know, I'm embarrassed, but I don't think enough

• 3:50Speaker 01

  people are talking about this. And so I decided this stuff is too important to not talk about. So I am going to start talking about relationship content and like, what makes a good relationship? And what, what happens when you don't have a great relationship and all that stuff is, fascinates me. And so I started making content and, and my like silly side came out, you know, I was like, I was like, well, I could, I could just make content where I'm just looking into a camera and, or it was my phone at the time. You know, everybody starts on their phone. Like, look at your, look at your phone and just talk about, well, this is what you need for a healthy relationship. But I didn't realize I was creative on the inside. And so I started to think, well, how can I make this like, is there a way to make this funny? Like, is there a way to be funny and talk about relationship content? Cause relationship content, I'm not gonna lie, it's sometimes it can be a little boring.

• 4:35Sabrina Zohar?

  It could be a boring.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  You don't make it boring, but other people do. Not to name any names, no. You know who you are.

• 4:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Not to mention, you throw on a wig on Jimmy and it's a whole new version.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the wig thing was funny. I decided, all right, I want to play characters. I want to like, I want to, especially a guy and a girl. I want, I want their, I want to talk about their dynamic together. And I started putting on a wig because that just made sense. I was like, well, I'm doing a female character. I need a wig. Turns out you don't. I, I see a bunch of male creators and they put like a towel on. I was like, a towel was an option? I was like, nobody told me towel was an option. I think it would have changed my channel for the worse. I think the wig really helps.

• 5:15Sabrina Zohar?

  It drives it home.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  It drives it home. And I gotta be honest, it looks good.

• 5:20Sabrina Zohar?

  It does. I have to say, the first video I ever saw, not, you know, I think the first video that ever was the one, the, if you went on a date with a narcissist and they were honest.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:28Sabrina Zohar?

  And I just remember seeing there and being like, first of all, who is this? Because it was so well done.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  What is he doing?

• 5:34Sabrina Zohar?

  It was so good because you have such a natural way of delivering comic humor. Because it's like, that timing is everything and it doesn't feel scripted. It doesn't feel forced. It feels very intentional. So I fucking love your content.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 5:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Of course.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's really fun to make. And I mean, I'm, I don't know. I'm still, obviously, I'm still learning. Like, obviously, we're all still learning. So that's my job. I write whatever I'm reading at the time. If I'm reading something, you know, I'm like, oh, this is a great concept. Like, let's try to make a skit out of like, how to repair conflict or something. So.

• 6:07Sabrina Zohar?

  Which I love. And that's why today, like, we are gonna talk about a topic that you and I will riff off this. Sometimes we'll just call each other and just, can we just talk about this?

• 6:14Speaker 01

  I barely know what we're gonna talk about. I'm like genuinely terrified, but at the same time, excited.

• 6:17Sabrina Zohar?

  Well, this is a lot of audience questions. I'm excited. But it's really about, because before we even, before I even cat out of the bag, not to self identify, but in your heyday, did you more so, because I know your partner was more avoidant.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Where did you kind of fall in the spectrum?

• 6:31Speaker 01

  I'm definitely, I'm definitely anxious, since I know what it's like to be anxious, but have your, anybody who's struggled with this knows what it's like to be, I mean, first of all, a lot of people, maybe people don't even know what anxious attachment is. We'll get to that. But, but if you have anxious attachment and you're kind of like the pursuer of the relationship, then you know what it's like to also kind of have some avoidant tendencies where you start to detach and avoid. And so I'm not saying I'm like both, but people, people do know what it's like to be anxious, but also sometimes distant and avoid. And so, but I do, I would say I'm probably fall on anxious attachment.

• 7:11Sabrina Zohar?

  It could also, though, reminds me, because like Ryan, I mean, you know, Ryan, he's very classic avoidant, but he also has anxiety, right? And so I think that's that polarity that like, we all, depending on how it manifests, have that with him. Because I have, I've definitely gone when like, it's a little much, I'm like, I can't handle this, and I'll remove myself.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Big time, yeah.

• 7:28Sabrina Zohar?

  So I do find, but that's actually why I wanted us to have this conversation, because you and I resonate more with that anxious style versus, and both of our partners are more in the avoidant style, which is really why I wanted to talk today about that anxious avoidant dynamic, how to have a successful relationship in that dynamic, and different tools, modalities. Because like, I'm always eager to hear, like, what do you guys use? You have a code word. You have things that you've learned along the way. And I don't read comments, but if we did, you and I know very well that, right now, I think, in the landscape of TikTok University. If that's even going to be around and Instagram and YouTube, there is a, the pendulum has swung for all the beautiful content that there is, right? And all of the things that we can do to help, then there's the other side of it, right? The pendulum really

• 8:13Sabrina Zohar?

  goes. And I think there's a very grave misunderstanding about like, what does that actually mean to have this attachment style, right? It's not, this person's not just ignoring you every day. It's like, that person just sounds like an asshole. But let's even just start off there. Like we had said, let's talk about the main aspects of these attachment styles. And then we can start to answer some of these questions.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  If we wanted to make attachment style really easy, it essentially goes back to your initial caregivers and how they interacted with you. I mean, if you really think about it, anyone who, anyone who is interested in the relationship space, in order for any relationship to thrive, whether it's a friendship, whether it's a romantic partner, whether it's parent, child, there's a few essential ingredients that you need. You need some form of consistency, right? Because if you didn't have consistency, what would you have? Like you, that would, that would seems like that would cause you some anxiety.

• 9:05Sabrina Zohar?

  No, thank you.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  If you didn't have consistency, that would be a problem. If you didn't have safety, that would be a problem. Now, obviously, physical safety is easy to think about. Like, we know what's, we know what comes to mind when we think of like, not being physically safe. But we don't often think about, well, what does it mean to be emotionally safe? And so especially as a child, for you to be emotionally safe, this is another piece of content that I, that it's not, didn't come from me. None of my content comes from me. It's all learned from books and me going to counseling. A question that my counselor would ask me is, who did you have growing up who, you know, when you were having a feeling, whatever it was, when you were having a hard time, when you were feeling hurt or scared or alone or abandoned, or whatever the case may be, who did you have that was,

• 9:47Speaker 01

  that would move towards you with like warmth and like communicated either with words or body language, you're worth understanding and, and what you're going through matters to me. Instead of like, oh, I guess I can't do anything right. I guess I'm the worst mother in the world, or, or just a dad that's like, Brush it off. Like, don't quit crying. Like, babies cry. You're not a baby, you know? If your answer is, well, nobody, I didn't have anybody that did that, then it makes sense why you would struggle in certain areas, and we'll get to that, and we might be jumping ahead. But the point is, is like, relationships of any kind require certain elements, like, so they require consistency, they require safety, they require trust. What does it mean? Like, what does it mean to actually trust someone? Because a lot of relationships today,

• 10:30Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm not a therapist or a coach, but like, it doesn't take much for me to hear your story and for me to go, it doesn't sound like you actually trust your partner. And a lot of people view trust as like, well, I trust them like, not to go to a strip club, or not to like, you know, cheat on me, but, okay, but do you trust them to like, listen and like, care when you're hurt? And they're like, well, no, because like, they tell me I'm too sensitive, or they tell me I'm too needy, or, or they call me names, or they, you know, there's a lot of ways that we can just completely break trust in a relationship. And so all of those things are fascinating to me. And when you don't have them, essentially, to wrap up what I was saying, when you don't have certain

• 11:11Speaker 01

  of the, certain elements of that as your primary relationship with your, you know, in the therapy world, they would call it with your primary attachment figure, because like, you attach to your parents, you can't not attach to your parents. When you're young, you look to them for security and safety and love. And because if you didn't have them, you, you, your body knows that you might not survive. So there's an element in you that I need this person, I need this person. But that also comes with a cost, because if they are inconsistent, and if they are unsafe, and if they're not trustworthy, and they don't give you the emotional safety that you deserve, then you will start to

• 11:52Speaker 01

  do things, you will start to figure out ways to, instead of you thinking like, well, I need them, it's more like, I need them to see me as worthy, so I'll do certain things, or I need them to not, I need to not fight in this relationship. I can't, I don't feel safe to be my true self, so I'll figure out how to like, hide, and I'll figure out how to be somebody else. Maybe I'll just be who they want me to be. And so, or maybe I'll learn that you can't trust anybody. Nobody's there for me. Even at a young age, you realize there's no point in trusting people. They're, the most important people that were supposed to be there for me in my life, weren't there for me. And so when you learn those things, you learn. People aren't trustworthy. There's no point in putting myself vulnerable.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Why would I open myself up to be hurt, especially when you know that pain as a young child? So my point is, is that certain things happen. It's just cause and effect. Certain things happen. If your parents were extremely inconsistent, then you start to be anxious about, why would I trust other people to be consistent? Or what can I do to make them be more consistent? How can I control the environment so that, so that things don't go, you know, I don't get abandoned again, I don't get hurt again? We're all essentially just trying to avoid pain. At the end of the day, we're all just trying to stay safe. I'm going, I feel like I'm going on the longest rant in history. Or, I'll wrap it up real quick. Or you learn, people can't be trusted. There's no point in me really feeling feelings. What has that gotten me?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Except for pain, what has that gotten me? So I learned to turn those off. I'm numb, I'm none to feelings and, and needs. I don't need people because it's easier to be independent. Nobody's gonna let me down if I'm independent. Nobody can hurt me if I'm independent. And so, all of these little fears that we don't think of, maybe it's a fear of abandonment, maybe it's a fear of rejection. Maybe it's a fear of just being, you know, enmeshed is what they would call where it's like, I don't, I, I need to have separateness. I can't, if I get too close, then it feels like I'm about, I'm getting smothered and I just need to get out of there. Maybe I learned to shut down my feelings and emotions. But the point is, is that these fears manifest themselves in a lot of logical ways.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Like, it makes sense why we struggle with these things. But the problem is, is that when we, when we have these fears and/or we don't see ourselves, we don't really know deep down that we're lovable and we deserve respect and kindness, then we will sabotage our relationships in different ways. That's what I wanted, that's what I desperately needed to learn. Like, what way, in what ways am I? Sabotaging my relationship.

• 14:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Because when we think about self abandonment, dysregulation, right?

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:34Sabrina Zohar?

  I know for me, I was so terrified of like, please don't ever leave me, right? I had the inconsistent father and I had a mom who I could see she would disassociate. She couldn't even look you in the eyes when you were a kid because she just wasn't there. And she was on autopilot and like I, this is a lot of the work that I love to do is being able to hold to conflicting thoughts. I can love my mother, my dad's a different story. We'll save him for another day. I can love this woman with every bone in my body because of who she is now. But I can also acknowledge that as a child I was failed. And for me to heal through my anxious attachment, to be able to, you know, cause like that, at the end of the day, what people forget is like anxious people are also avoidant because when you're highly anxious and you're like you, you, you, everything's you.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 15:13Sabrina Zohar?

  You do all of this, what am I doing? I'm avoiding looking at myself. I'm avoiding doing the deeper work. And it's funny because one of my friends, she was visiting and she had seen, she was matched, whatever, talking with this guy that lived in California and she lived elsewhere. And before they came, before she came, I was like, you know, you guys are texting every day, doing all the stuff that I was like, I don't like it, but fine, right? This is a friend. You're not my client. I don't, you know, you gotta learn how to like have boundaries with your friends. And so I just said, like, don't you think maybe it would be a good idea to like talk about expectations? Or who's gonna move, right? And she was like, no, your anxiety, that's because, you know, don't be too much. And in my head, I was like, core belief's right there. And I said, you know what?

• 15:51Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 15:51Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm gonna respect it. Sure enough, they spend all this time together and then she leaves and he says, oh, well, you know, you don't even live here and this feels really pressured. And it's funny because then she called us and she was crying and Ryan was on. And she said, you know what? Fuck it. I'll just go back to my traditional avoidance and I just won't deal with this. And he grabbed the phone and he said, listen, as somebody who's avoidant, he was like, boy, do I understand more than anything, your desire to not have to deal with this. And he was like, but you're doing this for you. You're doing this because this person, because she was like, you know, I feel so stupid. I became vulnerable and like my heart, I was just like, I wanted to hug her so bad on the phone. And I get it, right? And she was like, I just feel so dumb. I was vulnerable. I feel like a fool. And I hear this every day and it's so valid. But one thing that Ryan said to her, which I thought was really beautiful, coming from an avoidant man, right?

• 16:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Was he was like, as somebody who likes to do that, he was like, I need to remind you, you're not doing this for them, you're doing this for you. You're doing this because you're finding your voice, you're learning that being vulnerable is beautiful, that you can connect with somebody deeply. And sure enough, after they had a couple of days, they ended up talking and like, working things out and having more conversations. And the guy was honest and said, I freaked the fuck out. You are so amazing, you are incredible, and when you were in front of me, I didn't know what to do. And that's where I have to kind of, because somebody, let's get into a question, someone asked, are avoidance just bullshitting, or do they really struggle to level, love back?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:07Sabrina Zohar?

  And when I read that, I was like, okay. So here's my issue. One, we're already saying that like, they're just, it's full of shit, it's all an act. And that, that would be quite an act, I have to say.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not an act.

• 17:17Sabrina Zohar?

  It's not an act. And I've been firsthand to it, and like, you, you, both of us have partners that experience that. I've seen Ryan, where like, his eyes will gloss over, you could see he wants to cry, and he's just like, nope, and you could see, he's on his loop, and I'm like, he's not look, making eye contact with anyone, because when you get dysregulated, what's my baseline? Please tell me everything's okay, please don't leave me, I need you, I need you, I need you. And what's theirs? This is overwhelming. Like you said, I need independence, I need safety, when I'm alone, I'm safe.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 17:45Sabrina Zohar?

  And it's funny, because I was talking to Britt, and I'm curious, hear your thoughts on this, and I love Britt, for actually, one of my best friends. And she was saying, she's like, let's flip this on its head, she was like, to be honest, the anxious person, oftentimes people pleasing, things like that, she's like, that's very selfish, you're doing it for your own needs. And she goes, and the avoidant person saying, let me remove myself, I don't want to hurt this person anymore, I'm in pain, is actually them trying to protect the other person, they might not do it right.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, it's all protection.

• 18:10Sabrina Zohar?

  All protection, right?

• 18:11Speaker 01

  I mean, like, the more you read, the more you think about it, it's all protection. Like, me, people pleasing is protecting, what are you protecting? Like, I'm protecting this relationship, I mean, I, I, I don't want this to, you know, avoidance, you're, you're, you're protecting all kinds of things, you know, you're protecting yourself from being hurt. Like you said, so many avoidant people, especially when they shut down, they would say, like, for any, if people that identify with anxious attachment, I would, I would challenge you to ask your avoidant leaning partner, if you have one. When they shut down, like, we might take it as, like, they're just...

• 18:41Sabrina Zohar?

  Make it personal.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  They don't care. Yeah, they clearly don't care. Like, but really, if you really asked them, they would say, well, one, they would say, I'm scared that my words are going to be used against me. I hear that all the time and anxious people. They're like, I would never do that. It's like, but that doesn't mean they're not afraid of it. And one thing that we have to like, say is that like, it doesn't make it right. Like, none of the behavior, it's still wrong.

• 19:03Sabrina Zohar?

  On both sides.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  On both sides. It's wrong when you don't speak up for your needs and then you build up a bunch of resentment and then you blow up over something small and you call them names and you criticize and you blame. And it's wrong when somebody dismisses and invalidates you and, um, you know, doesn't take any interest in how you're feeling or whatever. So the thing that's fascinating is like, avoidant people have anxiety. Like, nobody sees that or nobody like thinks about it like that. But like, avoiding people absolutely have anxiety. Like, that's one of the, that's one of the reasons they do that. And then, and then anxious people absolutely avoid things. I, listen, I can avoid hard conversations like no, I can give you gold medal in avoiding conflict. I can give you, I can teach a class on how to avoid conflict. But I know where that leads.

• 19:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Right.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  And it leads to distance and disconnection. And even if you're, even if your premise is, yeah, but if I had the hard conversation, they would just hurt me. If that's true, and it might be, that still leaves us with that there's no possibility of a healthy relationship here. You can't be in a relationship with someone who chooses to never like move towards you or like, or like can't have hard conversations with love and respect.

• 20:13Sabrina Zohar?

  That's the key here is like, none of this is about excusing bad behavior and being like, oh, my God. But you and I see the same side of the internet, I'm sure because of the content we create, we get surfaced the same stuff. And I see this consistency of this consistently that people will say like, just avoid avoidance. Like, I did a video of how I call my avoidant partner out on his shit. And he was just saying how I literally come to him, speak to him and how we move forward.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:37Sabrina Zohar?

  And it's funny because it went viral on YouTube a little bit and a bunch of people were, and like, one person even commented and she was like, are you guys actually listening to the video? Because this is actually really healthy and secure. Like, this is how you do it. But then someone wrote and she was like, good, keep all the avoidance out of the dating pool for us. And I chuckled because I was like, now what I hear from that comment? And I get it, it's valid as somebody who used to say that. I didn't trust myself. I didn't trust myself that I could say what this doesn't work for me. I didn't trust myself to express myself to this person effectively. I didn't trust myself that I'd walk away in time. I was like, no, I'm gonna stay too long. This isn't about, I only want to date someone because like, trust me, if you have a lot of anxiety, how when you meet someone else that has that anxious attachment, because I hear that all the time, like, can two avoidance be together, two anxious people?

• 21:19Sabrina Zohar?

  It's like, sure. I don't think it'll last very long. Two avoidance, they, both people don't really usually call each other back. And then the two anxious people, one or both will start to feel suffocated really quickly because it's overwhelming. And that's kind of my thing. When it comes to the anxious attachment, it's not that you're bad. There's no one that's bad because they have this. I'm not a bad little girl because my father was a fucking asshole. But it's my responsibility as an adult now to heal through that and to take accountability and say, you're right, just because you didn't text me for 45 minutes or an hour, I didn't have any right to blow up your phone or to freak out or to go to Instagram and start analyzing everything or to attack myself. That's me taking ownership. That doesn't mean that I had this coming or I earned it or I'm to blame, right?

• 22:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Like, we're not shamering or blaming anybody for the experiences that they have. But for me, what changed my life in therapy and changed the fucking game for me was radical acceptance and learning that I can take accountability of my life. I was with a narcissist. So whenever I hear people say, well, but you don't know. I was with somebody that broke me down to the shell of a human. I was 25 pounds lighter than I am currently. I looked scared. I looked, people were asking if I was okay.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:27Sabrina Zohar?

  And all of that's to say is, I played a part in that dynamic. I'd never set boundaries with him. He would say stuff. I would protest behavior. I'd scream and cry. He would leave. We would have this big blow up, then he'd come back. We'd reconnect. We'd pretend like everything was fine until the next one. And he was breaking me down day by day because I didn't know myself. I didn't know who the fuck I was. And I was like, you tell me that that's okay, it's okay.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. External validation.

• 22:51Sabrina Zohar?

  And it was conditioning. It was all I ever knew.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 22:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Right?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:55Sabrina Zohar?

  If my father speaks to me, why would you speaking to me feel any different?

• 22:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 22:59Sabrina Zohar?

  And as a child, I didn't have parents that reaffirmed, I didn't have anybody, like you said, that stopped to ask me, how are you feeling? I learned that when I did therapy once. She said, who's your safe person? And I had no one.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  You're like, nobody.

• 23:10Sabrina Zohar?

  I had no one, no one at that time.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Probably like 10 years ago.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:14Sabrina Zohar?

  I didn't feel like anybody got me or understood me. I didn't feel like anyone was there. Like, I can't count, I can't count on my hands how many times I woke up with no one home, went to bed with no one home, had to walk home from school because my mom forgot to pick me up. My dad was out of town and didn't even tell anybody. And my sister left early without letting me know. And feeling like I'm invisible, no one sees me. Does anybody care about me? Is it a surprise that then I started to date men that reaffirmed that? That would treat me like I was an afterthought? That would dismiss me? That were emotionally unavailable because it felt safer to me? This is, I know this dance. You say jump, I say how high. Choosing myself was fucking terrifying because who am I to choose myself?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 23:50Sabrina Zohar?

  Right?

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Who am I to? Yeah. What do I know? Not understanding our self-worth gets us into so much trouble. Because we see it as arrogance and we see it as selfishness and it's not. Like, it's, understanding your worth and value is like essential. But, but yet, to a person who people pleases or has a, has a difficult past, doesn't feel like empowerment. It doesn't feel, it feels like arrogance. I mean, we bend over backwards because if we didn't bend over backwards, then that means we feel like we'd be putting the burden on somebody else and we would never put the burden on somebody else. I'll take that burden every single time. The problem is, is we tend to not get with people who also want to take the burden on. We take, we get with people who are like, cool.

• 24:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Thanks.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Thank you. Take it on forever. And we're like, and then eventually we're like, this is heavy. Like, really, really heavy. And they're like, it's not that bad. And you're like, oh, okay. Like, so.

• 24:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Because the rocks just keep getting added.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. We have to learn, like, what extra weight am I carrying?

• 24:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Like, what, like, what extra labor am I doing in this relationship? You know?

• 24:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Can I just also add in this? Because I hear this every day and I'm sure you get the same comment. Easier said than done. And it's like.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Everything's easier, yeah.

• 24:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Also, you know what? Life is fucking hard, right? Like, waking up every day could be challenging to a lot of people out there.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, yeah.

• 25:04Sabrina Zohar?

  I choose my heart every day. I get to decide, what do I put the mental energy? And I saw this quote the other day that was so beautiful. And it said, "Other people's opinion of you is their projection of how they see themselves. If it hits you, that's because it's the, it's how you see yourself."

• 25:18Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 25:18Sabrina Zohar?

  And I know, when I see the trolls that'll attack me. Some of them roll off like a water off a duck's back. I'm like, oh, go fuck yourself. I don't care. And then there's some that you're like, ooh, because it hits a core wound. Maybe my dad said that to me.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh, for sure.

• 25:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Maybe my sister said that to me growing up and I go out of prefrontal cortex into the amygdala and I am fear based and fear centered.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:38Sabrina Zohar?

  And the biggest thing here is like to an anxious and avoidant person can have a beautiful and healthy relationship when both people are doing the work. Now, of course, people can be like, well, yeah, well, the anxious or the avoidant person doesn't want to either. And it's like, but same with the anxious. I see this every day of like, why do I have to do the work? Why do I have to come closer? Again, I have to be the one that does this. Or I have to be the one that doesn't text them as much. And it's like, but you're doing that for you. You're not doing that for them.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:03Sabrina Zohar?

  You fill your cup up, your life up. I'm sorry, but like my brother said this to me a few years ago and it stuck. He said, if you have this much time in a day to worry why somebody didn't text you, you need to build your fucking life up and get a lot busier because you then are not filling your life with things that mean something to you and you are waiting for them to do that. And it's stuck with me ever since.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so hard. It's, I mean, I get it. It's so hard to like not.

• 26:27Sabrina Zohar?

  So hard.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  There's, there's two problems. Like, I mean, one, it's normal for you to want a partner who reciprocates. Like, it's normal for you to want the connection and, you know, emotional maturity in your relationship. The problem comes in where you, where you are like, well, I, okay, I'm doing the work, but my partner isn't. Sure, they don't have to. They don't have to do the work. It's not there, you know, like, you have to come to a place, we just talked about this, and this is like a terribly sad reality. And I, I understand it's extremely nuanced, but you have to come to a place where, where you're okay leaving that relationship.

• 27:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Like, not every relationship is for you. Sometimes when you're growing in maturity and wisdom, and especially in this space and like learning about your own needs and wants and desires, you might figure out that my partner doesn't share this, they don't care about the growth. You have to decide, obviously, I made a whole YouTube video, like, how to, how to know when to leave a relationship. And of course, it's extremely nuanced and it's, and it's complex. But Terry Real actually has a great quote, like he says, are enough of your needs being met to grieve the ones that aren't?

• 27:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Hmm, I love that.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  It's like, in every relationship, there's going to be some needs that are just grieve, like, um, this isn't, my partner is not a need meeting machine. But at the same time, there's a lot of partners who don't plan on need meeting any of your needs. And so what are we gonna do? It's like, you have a choice. It's like, I, I'm not saying Go divorce them tomorrow when you have like kids and a house and those stuff like, but at the same time, like even people who are dating ask that question. Like they've been dating for a year, no kids, they're not married. And they're like, my partner doesn't do the work at all, or they don't do this and that. I've asked this and this is happening. And I'm like, well, like you eventually have to make a choice of this. Is this relationship ever going to be mutually fulfilling? Like, well, if they would just, but you just told me they won't.

• 28:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  So.

• 28:13Sabrina Zohar?

  One of my friends was married for like 20 years and we were having dinner one night and it was when my ex and I broke up and he said, do you accept him as he is? And I said, yes, but, and he stopped me and he goes, I'm done. And he goes, then you don't accept him for who he is. He goes, because yes, but means you want to change him. And he goes, I love my partner. And I could say that now with full confidence, like, do I accept and love my partner? Yeah, he's doing the work on himself. We're both growing like I'm fucking perfect. Are you kidding? We both have our stuff, but we are so committed to this relationship, to making it work. And even the other night, like I had a whole thing, you know, had my emotional state and I was dealing with a lot, actually no, it was I'm doing this mold detox. Don't worry guys, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go in more on this for you guys on another episode. And I was taking the specific supplement, it was making me fucking insane because it was clearing out stuff, the brain gut access, I was bananas.

• 28:58Sabrina Zohar?

  And even Ryan said, he was like, I, this is really tough. That's how he starts things. He'll say like, this is really hard for me, but I know how important this is for our relationship. So can you please just give me grace while I try to articulate this?

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Oh, it's beautiful.

• 29:09Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'm always, I'm just like, absolutely. Thank you for letting me know. Like I'm always supportive, especially when he comes to me and I can see he's trying. And that's what I mean by progress, right? When we first started dating, I didn't have this partner, but when I would bring something to him, he would stop and be like, okay, thank you for bringing that to my attention. Like, let me see what I can, I want to process this.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:28Sabrina Zohar?

  And we would have actionable steps. That is how an anxious avoidant dynamic can work. He has learned, I need to come closer to my partner. I need to communicate more with my partner. I cannot hold things from them. Like he would make plans without talking to me and it's like, that doesn't work here. Like you can make whatever plans you want for yourself, but communicate with me if I'm involved in it.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:45Sabrina Zohar?

  And for me, it was, I need to not take things personally. I need to understand his need for space is completely valid. And on a Sunday, if he says, babe, I'm gonna go upstairs for three hours, I need to be alone, it's not a reflection of me of like, you don't want to be with me? I'm like, you know what? Enjoy it, I'm gonna do my thing too. There is a balance. And somebody, this is actually kind of going to the question. Someone said, I want to hear your, your thoughts as well. She said, how do I stop falling into anxious trap when they pull away? And for me, the first thing I heard, for me at least personally, because my partner does that, is regulate your nervous system and come back to a space of having agency and choice. So I can start to challenge whatever narrative is happening. So if my partner pulls away, and instead of filling in the blanks with, see, I knew it. He's pulling away. He doesn't love me. He doesn't care about me. I knew he was going to leave

• 30:29Sabrina Zohar?

  me. Right? That's where my brain base lines. Instead, I'll stop and be like, Sabrina, remove yourself for a second. Go for a walk for a few minutes. I come back and I'll first even just be like, hey, is everything okay? Do you need anything? And if he's like, I'm fine. I just need a minute. Okay. I'll remove myself and remind myself that there are a thousand other reasons this person could need space. And if it were about me, they would communicate that with me. So until they tell me it's something I did, I'm not going to make assumptions.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:52Sabrina Zohar?

  But I'm curious, as somebody who has that dynamic as well, what are your modalities that help you instead of spiraling into like, oh, my God, that's it?

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:00Sabrina Zohar?

  What helps you?

• 31:01Speaker 01

  I mean, well, first of all, yes, you have to, you have to come to the place where you don't make assumptions. Like, obviously, that's true. You also have to get bold enough, which is, this is so hard, like, for some, for somebody like, this is so easy for some people, and yet other people struggle, like me, struggle so hard. You have to get to the point where you're like, honest about, uh, saying that, like, hey, when this happens, like, when this specific scenario happens, like, man, man, do I really just feel, I mean, you might want to not, not say abandoned, but like, gosh, like, it really hurts. Like, it really, something really happens on the inside. And, and I would love it if you could give me some, like, reassurance in that moment that, like, this isn't about me, or this isn't, if you could just communicate, even if it's just brief, like, what's going

• 31:43Speaker 01

  on, you know, which is really difficult for the avoidant partner, but it's necessary. I mean, that communication goes a long way, just like you said. The regulating yourself and, and just being self reflective in that process, it's so hard in the moment, but like, it's so, it's so important for you to just, and I've struck, I've Felt that recently because you kind of go into a little bit of a panic. And it's in those moments where you just have to be like, oh, okay. This is this is those moments where I just feel like I want to, I want to do whatever I normally do to like fix this. I want to blast text them now. I want to tell them, you know, give it, give it to them or, you know, tell them why they're so wrong for doing this, how they're hurting me or whatever the case may be. And we have to just remember that it's, it's most likely not about us. That's really goes back to like trusting your partner. You're like, if this was about me, he would communicate that. That's trusting your partner. Like, I trust you, babe.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Like, if this was about me, you would communicate this.

• 32:30Sabrina Zohar?

  The guy I dated before him, anytime I brought anything up, he was so avoidant. It was actually kind of painful and he was just like, I don't need any therapy. No, I'm good. Like I have no issues. And in my head, I'm like, oh, brother.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 32:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. And it just started to see where I would be like, hey, like, can we have a touch base? How are you feeling? Fine.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 32:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Cool. And it just got to that point where I was like, the depth wasn't there. This person wasn't engaging and he's not a bad guy. This guy is a lovely human. It didn't work anymore. No, thank you. This doesn't work for me. That doesn't mean that I have to villainize and that's also kind of my thing. This villainization of like the avoidance are the worst people. Whereas the anxious person will at least I communicate. And again, my favorite line in Eternal Sunshine is constantly talking is not necessarily communicating. And I think a lot of people like I've dealt with it. Now that I have a lot of clients, I'll sometimes deal with people or I'll get DMs and I see it's this manic and I'm like, it's the dysregulation and I get it. I was her. I've sent Jimmy. I don't think I ever told you.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  I know all about.

• 33:24Sabrina Zohar?

  You know, I sent 173 texts to a guy once because he tried to break up with me. I'm not kidding.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  I know what that feels like.

• 33:29Sabrina Zohar?

  I love that, what you said of like expressing yourself to your partner, like, hey, when you shut down, it makes me feel disconnected. Or I don't feel like we're together as a team. Can you just let me know? Cause Ryan will do that now. He'll be like, babe, it's not you. I need time. And I'm like, got it. But I also think there's so much beauty in when something happens, you don't have to respond. You don't have to react in the moment, but you don't have to engage in that second. If somebody.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  You shouldn't.

• 33:51Sabrina Zohar?

  You shouldn't, right? Diffuse it for just a second, even if that means, hey, I'm going to go outside for 10 minutes. Let's talk in a few.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  When you get activated, there's different areas of your brain for people. I didn't know this, obviously. There's like, you have like a thinking part of your brain and then you have like a fear center part of your brain. And so, so. Often when we go into fight, flight or freeze, we don't really realize when it's even happening. But we will quickly switch over and we don't know that we're in the fear center. So you need to start paying attention to like, wait, I think I'm in the fear center. And like, you know, when you want to send those 40 texts in a row, like, or when you want to explode on your partner. Somebody says, you know, there's power in the pause, you know? It's so vital, especially if you have, especially if you're in an anxious avoidant dynamic. You have to learn how to slow your fights down, like you have to learn. Cause when you slow your fights down, you realize, well, one, you're, you're not even fighting about anything.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Cause it's, it's your job to self-reflect because so often anxious, especially, you know, even if you're a people pleaser, if you're avoiding or anxious attachment. You think you're communicating, you think you're being vulnerable, but what you're really saying is like, I feel like you don't care. Well, that's not a feeling. Like, so you think you were being vulnerable there, but you were also making a judgment and being accusatory. And, you know, you, it's real easy for you to escalate because you have a, maybe, maybe that's the way it was in your house. Well, you had to yell to be heard, or maybe you feel like you have to yell to be heard.

• 35:11Sabrina Zohar?

  I used to get erratic or erratic, because that's my dad, he boop like that in a second, he's screaming at you. And so I always was like, yeah, to your point, half the time it's like, when I watch 90 Day Fiance or any of those love shows, you know? And especially when you start to see them compound over time, you watch episode after episode. And half the time I'm like, we're not even fighting about what we're fighting about. We started about, you don't feel like a priority, kind of what you were just saying, like, you don't take me out and it's like, I don't feel like I'm a priority to you. And I feel like I feel disconnected, right? That's the root of the issue, maybe. Then we start to come in and like, well, but you always do always and never, we don't need any where. And not to mention, anytime I'm having a talk with Brian or anybody, I don't ever start with you.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:50Sabrina Zohar?

  It's I, can I share something with you? I feel this. Britt Frank always tells me, and she's like the love addict, which is the more anxious, she was like, it's not abandonment that they're terrified of. She's like, it's intimacy. That's why they're addicted to it. It's next, it's next, it's next, and the next person, the next person. But then really, what is the avoidance biggest fear? It's not. A lot, all those are close and sure, sure. It's rejection.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Always rejection.

• 36:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Judged for who they are. And I know with my sister, I love my sister to the moon and back, but growing up, she was always put down for who she was and rejected. And my dad was not very good to her. How does it, would it surprise me now as an adult, she's a people pleaser, she shuts down, she just, yep, she'll say yes even when she wants to say no, because she is so scared she would get hit when she would say no. And she was terrified. And now she's working through that. She's like, no, I want to communicate. And it's a beautiful thing.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 36:36Sabrina Zohar?

  To find your voice, but there's that balance, right? Cause it's like with, when you have a high anxiety, you can't go to your partner every three minutes, because it's like, hey, if every single time they open their mouth, it's something you don't like, then I would highly suggest we look at if this is compatible. I know there's going to be people that are going to hate me for saying this and say that I'm a victim blaming and I'm a bully and like, that's okay. I'm not a good coach if I don't challenge and I don't push you to start to look and say, wait a minute, that's true. Am I doing this for the real reasons? Because if I really love my partner, like I love you as a friend, right? You are somebody that I hold so dearly to, I wouldn't fathom throwing all of that and being like, let me just give you more and you'll love me. Because I know that that wouldn't be a true connection. We wouldn't have a real friendship. It would be me being burnt out.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 37:20Sabrina Zohar?

  We talked about that earlier. What was the term?

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Burnout pursuer.

• 37:23Sabrina Zohar?

  Can you go on on that?

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, burnt out pursuer, especially somebody with anxious detachment. Especially someone who they might have some core wounds, obviously around their self-worth. And that's why they continue picking people who are emotionally available, because well, one, like you said before, sometimes we think, I can change them. Sometimes, especially with anxious detachment, we like, we like, I don't know if anybody else like this, but I like to fix people.

• 37:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, famous last word.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  I like to, if I can see that you've had pain in your past, if I can see that you're, somebody didn't treat you right, I will, my first thought is, I will love you so much that you will finally experience love and that, and you will, then you'll give it back to me and I'll be the best person in the world because to you, because like, I'll be giving you what you were deprived of all along. What we don't realize is, well, that person has core wounds. And so when I love, essentially love bomb them, they're, they're going to be pushed far away. They're like, please don't do that. It's normal. For anxiously attached people or people pleasers to pursue their partner. You're always the one that goes first. You apologize first. You're pursuing connection with this person,

• 38:32Speaker 01

  especially if you get with emotionally unavailable people because you think you can fix them. You want to heal them. I think Harville Hendrix says, what's fascinating is you actually want to recreate the patterns of your past, subconsciously, so that you can fix them because they've caused you so much pain that you think, oh, if I can just recreate this narcissistic relationship, you know, my, my father was an alcoholic, so I'll just get with an alcoholic because that feels so familiar. But if I can heal that relationship, then I can also heal this wound that I'm not even aware of. Anyways, it's a fascinating theory.

• 39:05Sabrina Zohar?

  Repetition compulsion.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:06Sabrina Zohar?

  And you know, it reminds me when you were talking about like the people pleasing thing, Gene Wilder. Do you ever know his story?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  No, I don't know his story.

• 39:12Sabrina Zohar?

  So I was watching a documentary on him and what I didn't know was when he was like 15 or 16, or no, I think he was even younger, but something like that. His mother was diagnosed and the doctor came to him and said, I mean, talk about fucking pressure.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:23Sabrina Zohar?

  Do not make them hurt sad. You have to make her laugh or else she'll die.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 39:26Sabrina Zohar?

  So he learned only, she ended up living like 35 more years and, but they were saying like the pressure. Exactly. That's why he became a comedian and he was actually quite, he had a lot of darkness to him. But he always learned just keep it light, keep it light, keep it light because you gotta make them laugh because I don't want to hurt them.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:43Sabrina Zohar?

  And that is where it's like my heart went out when I heard that because we, I've been guilty of that of like, well, if I love my dad, if I just love him, maybe he'll think I am a good girl. And then I ended up dating people like him.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  People pleasing is a good, is a good example. You can people please your way right into a miserable relationship. You can only do that for so long and be neglected before you essentially become miserable and resent them. And that's the burnt out pursuer. Once that resentment sits inside of you for long enough, you obviously start becoming real critical with them. You start to have this negative bias. Like they'll, you know, they do the dishes for you, not for you, but they do the dishes and you're just like, yeah, they do, you want to, you know, they'll go, you do the dishes one time per week. Like you think you deserve a cookie? You know what I mean? And so you start to have this negative view of them because you're, now you're just looking for things to confirm that they're, they're just a neglectful narcissist, you know, like they don't care about anybody but themselves.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  So now, now that's how, how you view them. And so now you're going to look for things to obviously support that. But the burnt out pursuer, they look at the situation and think, well, I wouldn't be like this if it wasn't for them. It's very easy to blame.

• 40:49Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  It's not, it's not my fault. I'm, I did everything right. You did everything right, except for set any healthy boundaries and advocate for your own needs and then give consequences, appropriate consequences to people that aren't on your team. They don't actually, they're not actually supportive. They're not helpful. They're not validating. They're not loving. You did everything except for fiercely advocate for yourself in that relationship, because that's what you have to do. If you want a healthy relationship, you have to, you have to learn how to advocate for yourself. But that feels extremely selfish when you're, when you have a history of any sort of little T or big T trauma.

• 41:28Sabrina Zohar?

  I was gonna say, because as a kid, if I put myself first, that would have meant I'd lost my parents. Like if I-

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 41:33Sabrina Zohar?

  To this day, if you say, like, we went to dinner with my dad and I literally said no to him. I said, because he was like bitching about me about something that I should do, that he thinks I should. And when I didn't, he literally just mid-conversation, even Ryan was like, oh my God, he just turned to the side.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Completely just, I was no longer there, mid-sentence. And I stopped and it's like, of course, I was like, this is so familiar. That's what I grew up in, knowing that you say anything that rocks the boat, you're gonna lose this person.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 42:00Sabrina Zohar?

  And it wasn't until I was okay with losing him, when a couple of years ago, when I was like, fine, you wanna walk? My dad did his bullshit and I said, fine, you wanna go? Then go. That's it. I'm not gonna try to hold you anymore.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:10Sabrina Zohar?

  And now that's how I live my life. Even yesterday, having the whole thing that I was telling you about with my personal business stuff and having somebody that was working really closely with me and then all of a sudden says they don't want to. I even said on the call, I was like, I'm gonna treat this like a breakup after you. I am not here to convince you. I don't need you to choose me. I choose myself and I am go, you know what I have? I have choices. And I ended up finding someone even better to deal with for this situation. Endings are not necessarily a bad thing. But I think to your point, and like, I think this whole conversation, what I really love about it is that it's exemplifying that both people have to do the work. It's not just one-

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, yeah.

• 42:43Sabrina Zohar?

  It's not just you. It's not just your wife. It's not just me. It's not just Ryan. There's never just one person that has to do it all. And if you're constantly saying like, well, I keep doing all this work and nothing's helping. It's like, stop self-abandoning and becoming obsessed with trying to get them to change instead of looking at yourself of what you have choices in.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  I love that. Yeah. What I think about is like, so let's go back to that example real quick. So you never take me out anymore. And then the other person is just like, I'm, I'm working so hard. Like, what do you, I don't understand, like, kinda dismissive. It'll get to the point where they're validating, maybe it gets to the point where shut down, depending on the escalation. The point is, one, we don't know what we're fighting for. Like, what are you fighting for? The other person would say, I'm fighting because I want to connect with them. I want them, I loved, I loved when they used to take me out. Like, that made me feel so valued and made me feel so prioritized. Like, okay, have you told them that? Yeah. Yeah, I just did. I told them. I just told them. No, you told them you never take me out anymore. Like, you didn't tell them how important that was to you, how much you love it when they do that. Because that is vulnerable. Yeah.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  So, we, we really hide that vulnerability within the criticism and within the, so, one, we need to, we need to do a better job at, when our partner is, doesn't get it perfectly, what are the hidden feelings or unmet needs within this frustration or complaint? I'm not saying it justifies your partner screaming at you, calling you names. Don't put up with any of that. Like, set healthy boundaries. But sometimes, we don't communicate correctly. And if you're saying something like, instead of saying like, I feel frustrated, if you're just like, man, you never take me out anymore. Like, we should, pause, and, and it's really difficult to do this, but it takes both partners to just pause and be like, what, what are, what are they trying to communicate? Right. Or what are we fighting for? We really only fight for a couple of things. We fight for connection. We fight for respect. We fight to feel valued.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  There's a reason that this person is bringing this up. Like, so, I always just try to lead with, you said it earlier, curiosity. Like, I, once again, I didn't come up with this. Conflict is an opportunity for like, growth in your relationship. Like, you should not look at conflict as something to be avoided. My point is, is it really what helps if both partners could take accountability? So, in that instance, that person saying, you never take me out anymore, they would take accountability by saying, you know what? I didn't tell you how important this was to me. I didn't tell you how much I love when you take me out. It really makes me feel like, so prioritized. And you used to do that, and I, I really miss it. Like, I really miss it. You have been working overtime. And, like, gosh, do I appreciate the hard work that you're doing. But like, at the same time,

• 45:03Speaker 01

  I didn't ask you to work overtime. You've been working overtime a lot, and it really, I just miss you. Like, it really feels like you're not really, you don't want to be here anymore. And that's scary for me. And it takes the other person, obviously, to not take that as an attack and not let their own shame be triggered. Because they, because it's easy to just go, well, Like, I'm trying to make money for our family. No, no, no, like, we gotta keep the focus on one person. If somebody's vulnerable and they actually tell you some feelings, like, please just give it a couple times where you're just like, man, thank you for telling me that.

• 45:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Like, like, I had no idea that you missed that. Like, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. Anytime you can lead with, I wanna understand. Remember that core questions that nobody was there for you? Like, you're worth understanding. Like, how are you showing your partner you're worth understanding? That's so important. So, so both of us can lead with taking accountability. Taking accountability is the, is essentially like, the catchall. Like, because if you're worried about that your partner's a narcissist, like narcissists will never take accountability. But, but also anxious people don't take accountability. Anxious, anxiously attachment people don't take accountability. And avoidantly attached people.

• 46:13Sabrina Zohar?

  Or they'll take all the, like, everything's my fault. And it's like, those are poor beliefs.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Which is a shame issue, not really an accountability issue. Yeah, that's really essentially, an essential piece of advice. If, if, if somebody was only gonna remember one thing of what I said, like, figure out a way where you can have conflict where you're both taking accountability.

• 46:27Sabrina Zohar?

  I love that.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  That's so important.

• 46:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Aw, Jimmy.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  And it de-escalates the conflict. You cannot have a escalated conflict where one person goes, you know what, I said that wrong.

• 46:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Right.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  That came out wrong. I, I can totally see how, like, you would've gotten defensive 'cause like, 'cause like, I really kinda came out critical and blaming. I was dealing with a lot of stuff and I wasn't communicating that 'cause we, we haven't had time together. And, man, I just got frustrated, I just got over. Can I, can I do that over?

• 46:52Sabrina Zohar?

  You feel seen, you feel heard, you're like...

• 46:54Speaker 01

  And that other person is like, this person's taking accountability for the way they're talking to me. Avoidant people love when you do that. When you take accountability for the way you're bringing things up because they're so afraid that you're just about to lash out at them at any moment, because they have no real emotional awareness, like, I don't know where we are.

• 47:07Sabrina Zohar?

  That's true.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Are we good? I don't, no, no, no, like, I'm good, but I don't know if you're good. I never know when she's gonna yell at me. If you have avoidant attachment, it's so important for you to learn, because it's a skill that you can learn. So important that you learn how to take accountability for the way you show up. And you're like, I did get defensive. And I bet that when I get defensive, it really makes you feel unheard, doesn't it?

• 47:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Validate, I was gonna say validate, like, I, I know it all the time. I can see how that would bother you and that was never my intention.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Everything.

• 47:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Truly.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Truly.

• 47:34Sabrina Zohar?

  All right. Well, we're gonna need to hold another episode on fucking conflict. But for now, Jimmy.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  I love conflict. Are you about to end this?

• 47:40Sabrina Zohar?

  We're gonna end this because we're gonna do another episode.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 47:43Sabrina Zohar?

  We're gonna do in the trenches where we're gonna help people in a different way.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 47:47Sabrina Zohar?

  But thank you for coming on.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  It was wonderful.

• 47:49Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm so excited. Okay, where can people find you?

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Oh, wherever you watch content, Jimmy on Relationships.

• 47:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, it'll be.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Guys in wigs. This is gonna get weird. If you like relationship content and anyways.

• 48:01Sabrina Zohar?

  If that's your fetish, I'm here for it.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, if it's still around.

• 48:06Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Facebook.

• 48:07Sabrina Zohar?

  Determined. We'll see. But I'll be linking everything and I'm just.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not worried about it.

• 48:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you so much for being on.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was great.