#2465 - Michael Shellenberger

Michael Shellenberger is an author, journalist, and founder of Civilization Works. He is the CBR Chair of Politics, Censorship, and Free Speech at the University of Austin. His books include “Apocalypse Never" and “San Fransicko."www.public.newswww.shellenberger.org Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Visible. Live in the know. https://www.visible.com/catfished Now This is Taxes. Visit https://turbotax.intuit.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:11Joe Rogan?

  Good to see you, sir.

• 0:12Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me back.

• 0:14Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure, always. So much crazy shit going on in the world, and even before we scheduled this, like, more crazy stuff has happened, the war broke out, all kinds of things.

• 0:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. How are you, how are you feeling about the President Trump?

• 0:30Joe Rogan?

  That's an open-ended question.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  Do you text with him and talk to him?

• 0:35Joe Rogan?

  Occasionally, yeah, occasionally he'll send me a text. I get these, like, Truth Social posts of, you know, things that he's saying, but this whole fucking Iran thing, man, like, did you see this coming?

• 0:49Speaker 02

  No, definitely. I don't know, I mean, who did? I mean, when did he even decide? You know, their national security strategy they put out in November basically just said, "We've degraded their capacity, it's a win." There was no sense in which there would be additional action. I think it ushers in a new paradigm, completely, the older post-war era is just over. Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada, articulated that at the World Economic Forum, probably better than the Trump administration did, saying very clearly that older, rules-based order is gone. You saw AOC try to sort of articulate it, but she sort of fell apart at the Munich Security Conference in February. So this is an administration that is, I mean, and I don't even think they're thinking,

• 1:32Speaker 02

  I wrote a piece and I decided not to publish it because I was sort of like, decapitation doesn't really work for regime change, but it's not clear that they're really out for regime change, or they're just asserting power, shaking up things. I mean, some of it's art of the deal, changing the person that we're negotiating with, that's Venezuela and Iran. Is it really going to change those regimes? I don't, I don't think, most people don't think so, but that, I'm not sure that that's what they're going for. They're just going for an assertion of American power in service of American interests, and then what happens in Iran, what happens in Venezuela, I don't think they care that much about. At least they're not behaving as though they do.

• 2:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, the none, neither thing made any sense to me. The Venezuela thing, I mean, look, they wanted him out forever. And he definitely stole the election to get in there in the first place, and he was a dictator. But at least that one was at least clean. They go in, kidnap him, get him out. This one's nuts. Like, and what's happening in Tel Aviv? It's, it's hard to know what's real and what's not, because there's a lot of fake video going around and a lot of weird posts on X. So it's, you know, when I do peek in, it's hard to know. And you have to listen to Grok, and then Grok's dismantling a lot of the fake videos.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. What, what are the fake videos that you're thinking of?

• 2:52Joe Rogan?

  This is like fake, fake videos of, you know, like, an insane amount of bombs dropping down on the city. But it seems like there's a massive amount of destruction in Tel Aviv.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I haven't checked in lately, but I'm assuming. Was that just today, or?

• 3:06Joe Rogan?

  Yesterday?

• 3:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  I mean, I think the president is, there's been some, you know, Rubio said something about how, oh, we had to act because we knew that Israel was going to act anyway. And I think people interpreted, and then Netanyahu was in the White House a lot. This, I think this president has shown, whether you like him or not, you know, and there's certainly things that I'm unhappy about and have criticized. But I think Trump is in charge. Like, he's making these decisions. There's nobody behind him, there's nobody, nobody pulling, for all of that, you know, the Russians, or whoever, some, you know, these, now the Israelis, you know, it's just, he's clearly, I mean, Elon gave him, you know, $250 million, and he still, you know, he didn't give him even the electric car credit, you know, like, like, Trump is in charge, you know, like, I think that's one of the big lessons from this.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  And I don't think that, I think that means that there's not a lot of, like, second order thinking here, like, oh, what's the move after that? He doesn't know. He's just acting. That's what's so wild about it, is that this older foreign policy establishment... Which, you know, was like, let the experts decide what the right foreign policy, you know, all these think tanks, and that's just gone now. It's just irrelevant in this presidency. And I don't think it'll come back. Like, if you get a Gavin Newsom or a President AOC, I don't-

• 4:15Joe Rogan?

  What? President who?

• 4:17Speaker 02

  I don't think, yeah.

• 4:18Joe Rogan?

  For real?

• 4:19Speaker 02

  For a minute, before Munich. But I don't think it's gonna come back, and I think that that's what the Prime Minister of Canada realized. I think that's what the Europeans are starting to realize, is that this is a completely different world that we live in than the one we lived in just a couple of years ago.

• 4:31Joe Rogan?

  Which just doesn't make any sense to me, unless we're acting on someone else's interests, like particularly Israel's interests. It just didn't make any sense to me. Like, if they had supposedly dismantled their chances of making the nuclear bomb, whether or not that's true, I mean, it's so hard to know.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  He was unsatisfied, and just like, he was like, "I'm not getting anywhere in these negotiations, and I'm gonna replace the person I'm negotiating with." It's just, you know, turn over the table, like, change things up. You're not getting anywhere. And you could say he was too impatient. Their view was, the Democrats were too patient with Iran, they kept trying with Iran, Iran, they weren't giving them what they wanted. I'm not defending it, I'm just saying, I think that's what explains it. They haven't done a very good job explaining it, because I think that it just sounds, to some extent, like what it is, which is that it's, they're acting without, they're sort of like, "Well, does it result in regime change in Iran? We don't know. They might say that we want that," or whatever, but that's not ultimately, they're not acting on the basis of achieving regime change.

• 5:33Joe Rogan?

  Which just seems so insane, based on what he ran on. I mean, this is why a lot of people feel betrayed, right? He ran on no more wars, and these stupid, senseless wars, and then we have one that we can't even really clearly define why we did it.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Well, but he said he's against endless wars.

• 5:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, they're all-

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Running against endless wars.

• 5:53Joe Rogan?

  Listen, man, they're all endless. Did you ever hear Rumsfeld talk about Iraq when it first happened?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Tell me.

• 5:59Joe Rogan?

  They were talking about like, six weeks. Six weeks.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:02Joe Rogan?

  Six weeks.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. But they put, that was ground force, and I know that they've not ruled that out. For me, that would be-

• 6:09Joe Rogan?

  They have?

• 6:10Speaker 02

  They have not. My understanding is that they have not, yeah.

• 6:12Joe Rogan?

  I thought you said "and now." "Have now."

• 6:14Speaker 02

  No. But they don't seem eager to go into, I mean, I criticized the Venezuela action, because I sort of was like, "How are you possibly gonna run Venezuela?" And then I think a little bit more time passed, and I was like, "Oh, they're not, they're not gonna try to run Venezuela." Like, that's not what this is. They wanted to get-

• 6:31Joe Rogan?

  They just wanted to take over the oil.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and even there, I mean, the oil, it's not significant at any global level. I don't, it's hard, I don't even think it's really about the oil. I don't think it's about the oil. I don't think it's about the oil in Iran either.

• 6:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, the oil reserves are significant. It's just the, the type of oil and how to extract it is extremely difficult.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Oh, it's the worst, Joe. It's in the Am- like, the big, the big abundant reserves are in the Amazon. So you're talking about, what a nightmare. It's super far away. It's terrible. You had a guerrilla conflict? If you had a guerrilla conflict break out around those oil facilities, I mean, it's already more expensive because you have to heat up that particular type of, it's, you know, it's really heavy oils. To heat it up, to get it out of the ground, then you have to heat it to transport. It's a total nightmare. I just, I mean, and as a conservationist, I would say that would be the last place I'd want to see us getting oil from. There's a lot of other places that have, have oil. We shouldn't be going into the Amazon.

• 7:22Joe Rogan?

  So what, if anything, makes sense to you about this attack in Iran?

• 7:29Speaker 02

  I don't know that it, I'm, I'm not, I'm not sure what I think of it. I mean, I don't, I don't like it. I don't like, I mean, the whole older system was that you had this international, you know, Security Council would have to agree. The Congress would have to agree. That's all gone now. I mean, it's just a totally different, this guy is just acting. You know, he says, he's not getting where they want to get in the negotiations with the Iranians. So he says, we have some leverage over you and we're going to use it.

• 7:53Joe Rogan?

  But clearly, Israel wanted this.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Israel has its own motivations, I think.

• 7:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  But I don't think, I think it's not quite accurate to say that, I just don't think, I think all the evidence shows that Trump is his own man and he is the president. And like, literally, he couldn't even give ba- he couldn't even give Elon the battery subsidy that he wanted. You know what I mean?

• 8:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I get that.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  I've never seen a polit- I mean, I've never seen a politician act that independently. That's, I mean, a president act that independently. So I'm skeptical of- I mean, I think that, I think that Rubio was sort of like, well, they were gonna attack and so we had to, you know, there's some of that, but I just think Trump's doing what he wants to do and we should.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  You really think it's that simple? Trump's doing what he wants to do?

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:34Speaker 03

  And that's it?

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:35Speaker 03

  You don't think people are influencing him? Cause there's a lot of warhawks around him, right? There's a lot of people that want this and have for a long time.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  I mean, Netanyahu's in there, but then Tucker was in there a bunch.

• 8:45Speaker 03

  But do you think Tucker has the kind of influence that Netanyahu has?

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I guess if you just base it on the outcome, then the answer is no.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  No.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  But that's what I'm saying, I just think, I think he listens to everybody, but I just don't think it's, Russians aren't behind him, Israelis, I mean, Trump is, look what he's been through, I mean, he's, you know, he's got where he is, there's no way he's gonna, they don't have anything on him.

• 9:06Speaker 03

  How do you know that?

• 9:08Speaker 02

  I don't think they have anything on him.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  But how do you know that?

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Well, he could, but I'm not, we don't see any evidence for it.

• 9:13Speaker 03

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• 10:43Joe Rogan?

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• 11:53Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right. JoeRogan.com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace.com/Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGEN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Well, you wouldn't see any evidence until it broke out. Until they released it.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and well, we'll get it. I'm sure we'll get into Epstein, but I mean, I just think when you don't have evidence of something.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Then you can't assume that it's happening. I haven't seen any evidence. I've seen evidence that Trump is fully independent with particularly this case of Elon surprised me. I would have thought at a minimum you'd give your largest campaign contributor the one thing he wants. I mean, Doge was something you wanted too, but and then I look at Iran and I kind of go, you know, Trump has always won. I mean, Trump has been criticized. He said he doesn't want Iran to have a nuclear weapon for a really long time. I don't know the exact date, but certainly.

• 13:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, no one wants Iran to have a nuclear weapon other than Iran, right?

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that the

• 13:13Joe Rogan?

  Or their allies.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  He was also put it this way. He was also critical of the Democrats' approach, which was the sort of the mainstream IAEA-approved approach because of course, under international law, Iran has the right to a nuclear to nuclear energy and to nuclear facilities, including nuclear centrifuges and the enrichment. Iran has the right to all that under international law. And so and Trump doesn't agree with that and he's not going to let international law get in his way.

• 13:38Joe Rogan?

  So when you say he has a right to it, you're talking just about nuclear power.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. But that includes enrichment. So, you know,

• 13:46Joe Rogan?

  To a certain point.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:48Joe Rogan?

  But they've already surpassed that point, right?

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I believe I, you know, if I'm wrong, I'll correct it on X, but I don't think it specifies the level of enrichment is part of the issue. And then you've got these centrifuges and so it's all been a cat and mouse game. I personally do not doubt for a minute that Iran wants nuclear weapons. And that's what's been going on. I think most people think that. But the Obama administration was like, we can do, you know, we can lift sanctions in exchange for controlling their nuclear program. Trump has not for a very long time agreed with that approach. I think he was criticizing it for many years before, 2016, before he decided to run, but definitely for the last 10 years.

• 14:23Joe Rogan?

  Did you read the thing today that came out that they're discussing some sort of a leak transmission that seems to be an activation of terror cells?

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Iranians have?

• 14:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  I'm not, no, but I'm not surprised.

• 14:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Sounds bad.

• 14:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  That's one of the things that obviously that was the first thing I thought of was like, oh, great. Are we going to get a bunch of?

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Iranian suicide bombers in the United States now. It's obviously.

• 14:49Joe Rogan?

  I don't know if it's gonna be suicide bombers, but I would imagine it would be something a little bit more destructive than that.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Could be. Um, I don't know what they can get in. I mean, there's, Sean Ryan's been having folks on that say that.

• 15:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  People are getting in with, with heavy artillery. I just don't know the status of it.

• 15:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, the real problem is.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  They can do a lot.

• 15:07Joe Rogan?

  For four years, the border was wide open.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:10Joe Rogan?

  And definitely some people from the Middle East got through. And we have no idea, like, what is we, I mean, I'm sure there's some intelligence agencies that have an understanding of what the threat is.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  I hope so. I mean, I think we see that these terrorists are able to do an incredible amount of damage with pretty simple rifles. You know, and sometimes, uh, was it the French, uh, the, the club, that, um, that particular terrorist action, there were other people that were using bombs that like only killed one or two people, but the guys with the machine guns were able to gun down like dozens of people. So certainly it's, that's scary. I think none of us, I think that's where a lot of Americans, when it happened, the reason so many people were against it, I believe a majority is against it. Is because you're like, great, what are we, you know, first of all, is there gonna be another endless war? And second of all, are we gonna get a bunch of terrorist, um, actions here? I think if we did, I don't think support for the war goes up. I think it goes down.

• 16:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, it's just such a fuck, I mean, the whole,

• 16:12Joe Rogan?

  the whole situation internationally has been so tense already with what's going on in Gaza, with what's going on in Ukraine. It's like, and to add this to the pile, it's like, I mean, it genuinely feels like there's a real possibility that we might be entering World War III.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  How would that, what would that look like?

• 16:34Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. I, well, I never expected Iran to start attacking, you know, they, they launched bombs into UAE, Dubai. I mean, where else?

• 16:45Speaker 02

  I think they expected that though, right? I mean, it makes Iran look, Iran looks pretty isolated. I mean, I will say, you know, I was totally, obviously, maybe not obviously, but very much on the left and was opposed to all the stuff Reagan was doing. I remember all, even, even in the eighties. But it's like, he really did, I'm not gonna say he was the only reason, there was obviously a bunch of weakening within, but I mean, he really did push back against communism. He challenged the entire foreign policy establishment on the basic view of just, you know, of just kind of keeping it, you know, keeping the communists where they were, and instead Reagan really pushed back against it and said, it's gotta be regime change, it sort of almost had a moral, certainly there's a defense buildup, but a moral argument.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  And I think it had a big impact, and to bring down communism. So, you know, the Iranian, it's, I'm, I'm, obviously, I have very mixed feelings about it. The Iranian regime is just so evil and so awful that, you know, you're, every time you see videos of people taking these courageous actions, you're like, somebody bring that regime down. On the other hand, that country is pretty, the people of that country are pretty radical. And the Shah in 1979, I just spent last night watching all the old 60 Minutes from the 70s, they're amazing. But the Shah was really modernizing the country, there was a lot of wealth coming in, there was a lot more inequality, there was also a lot more state repression from his intelligence services. But the country was, you know, full of radical Muslims who wanted, you know, that when all that instability, they wanted to revert back to, you know,

• 18:11Speaker 02

  a radical Islamist regime. And that's still, now, I've seen other estimates to say that, you know, the current regime is incredibly unpopular in Iran, but, you know, how that works out, it's really hard to say. But there is something, I caution my own, I talk back to my own anti-interventionist instincts when I think about Reagan just being like, you know, we're not gonna do just containment strategy anymore, we're actually gonna talk back to communism because people deserve to be free. And, now, is everything better for, you know, is everything fine in Russia? Maybe not, but I mean, communism was just awful, you know, just a totally soul-killing, you know, crushing, you know, a giant lie. I mean, it's awful to totalitarianism. So, I think we have to kind of keep that in mind, and especially when you're in a moment of just such incredible chaos like we're in

• 18:56Speaker 02

  now. I tell my students, I'm like, you get to live through... One of the most interesting moments in history, certainly in the last 80 years, because the entire paradigm where the United States had these allies and everything's going to go through the Security Council, and we're going to try to make it through the UN, and there's got to get agreements and all this stuff, that's just gone. I mean, it's just, it's gone to the part where they don't even, where you're kind of like, how are you, what's going to happen inside Iran? They're like, that's not our concern. We hope that there's an overthrow of the government, but they're not, we're not like going to necessarily commit to that.

• 19:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, they're also calling on the people to rise up, which is, you know, I mean, look at what they did with the protesters. I mean, they killed thousands of people.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  And look at Iran and Venezuela, they don't have internal, the opposition is not united. There's not a united opposition with a united figure. I mean, remember, it was so interesting watching 79 with these protests against the Shah were going on, the left and the Islamists made an alliance in Iran. Something I'm very, it's something really interesting topic I only starting to explore right now, but they made an alliance, they'd be holding up, you know, they'd be holding up the Ayatollah Khomeini pictures in the street, like, they had their guy. And the left was like, look, we're just going to, you know, go with this guy. I think he was making promises to the left around allowing, you know, more liberalism, and then they came in and just consolidated into this really hardline Islamist regime. But they had a guy. We don't have, they don't, you know, we don't have a guy in Venezuela,

• 20:21Speaker 02

  we don't have a guy in Iran. I don't know if there's anybody in Cuba, really. You know, the, in the older regime, under like the Biden, the open society people, the open society establishment, they had somebody for Venezuela, this Machado woman. But Trump gets up there and he just goes, yeah, she doesn't have enough support, so she's not with us. Gone. You know, like, they recognize that they don't have, there's nobody with a opposition, you know, street cred that can come into power. So I think, and they know that, they're not like unaware of that. So I think some of the like, oh, they should rise up and whatever, it's a little half-hearted. I don't know that they believe that that's going to happen. They're certainly not, they don't seem to be offering them, you know, material support.

• 20:58Joe Rogan?

  Right, so it's just a symbolic gesture to talk about it.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Sounds like it. And I mean, in this kind of the, this beautiful collapse of communism, which occurred so peacefully with the Berlin Wall and the guard, eventually just sort of like, it's just in the vibes.

• 21:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  The guards are just like, yeah, we're not guarding this wall anymore. And it's just over, you know? And it was just over. And it was like, it was a kind of like a moral collapse. I'm not so sure that they're gonna get that in Iran. Doesn't seem like it.

• 21:25Joe Rogan?

  It seems like they've been preparing for this for a long time.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  The Iranians?

• 21:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  They're dug in. Now it's the Sun. And he's just part of, he represents the, I was the IGRC, the, the, the security forces. I mean, it's their guy. I mean, it's what you would do. It's rally around the flag. It's classic. What happens? And so, but, you know, never, you never know. I mean, these guys then might just negotiate more what the Trump administration wants. And I think the Trump administration is like, we'll just keep killing your leaders until we get somebody in there that will make a deal with us. I think that's, I think that's how Trump thinks about it.

• 21:58Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  That's my, that's my best guess.

• 22:01Joe Rogan?

  You're smiling. Do you think this is-

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Because it's funny, because it's funny, because it's, it's so, Joe, it's just like, you just look at all the think tanks and all the white papers and the State Department and the plan and whatever. And it's just like, Trump's just, he's gonna listen to Tucker, he's gonna listen to Netanyahu, and he's gonna decide what to do.

• 22:21Joe Rogan?

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• 23:21Speaker 02

  I don't know if it's good. I mean, I just, we don't know yet. I mean, I think part of it is, is it gonna work? Part of you goes, is it moral? And you're like, well, but does it, does it work to make, have better outcomes? I don't know. We're in a realm of absolute chaos.

• 23:33Joe Rogan?

  We're also in a realm where AI is going to be powering autonomous weapons, if not already.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  I mean, that, I mean, that is going on. That is so interesting, this thing with Anthropic and the DOD and what's happening there. That is really interesting.

• 23:48Joe Rogan?

  So initially Anthropic was hesitant to allow them to use autonomous weapons, right?

• 23:52Speaker 02

  I don't know the status of it, but you saw the OpenAI, the head of OpenAI Autonomous, it was, she was the head of Autonomous Weapons, I think. I'm not, don't, don't get me exactly right, but she just quit, like, a couple of days ago. It was on X, and it was just like a huge story. So you have a bunch of, you have, you have, you have a rift in between. Now, I'm, now I think, you know, Sam and Elon are both on board and want to keep working with the DOD, but it looks like Anthropic broke and, you know, and then, and then Hegseth was like, well, but then we're gonna punish you for this. That's very consistent with a kind of nationalist vision, which is that, which the Trump administration has, which is that your security strategy, your economic

• 24:36Speaker 02

  strategy, your border strategy, it's all a single, your industrial strategy, it's all a single thing. Your trade strategy, it's all a single thing. And I think for Trump, it's just, you're either asserting power and using your leverage and demanding more, or you're engaged in managed decline. You're just giving up, you know. And I, part of me, I'm of mixed minds on it, because on the one hand, I'm with the kind of, I kind of go, let's invest at home. We have all, you know, we have Skid Row to clean up, you know, we should be focused on that, not on trying to do regime change, or bombing other countries, or creating other problems. On the other hand, I think there's something right about defending the West. I mean, defending Western civilization, you know, defending our, our institutions, our norms, our liberal

• 25:19Speaker 02

  values. And, and nobody's done that. And we just had a guy in power that was, that opened our borders, that kind of gave a blank check to Ukraine. It seems like, at a minimum with Trump, you have somebody that is taking responsibility in ways where Biden would be like, well, we're gonna do what, you know, we're gonna work with our allies. And it was just all kind of... Like, it was like, it was all kind of going to be decided in this, in this, you know, what Curtis Yarvin famously calls the cathedral, you know, just the, the, the single thing of the media and the think tanks and the academics and, and Trump was like, it's not working. And the working class of this country elected me to, to show strength and to demand a better return on our investment in terms of protecting our allies for our people.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  So that part of it, I think, is really overdue and really necessary, an assertion of why the West is special, why we need to defend the West. Is bombing Iran and replacing the, you know, the commander with his son is, is what's happening in Venezuela, is that the right approach to that? I don't know. But I think we were, the system was, was failing. I mean, the open society system, which was supposed to be this liberal, you know, you know, system of tolerance, it became intolerant, it became totalitarian, it created censorship industrial complex, they, they weaponized the intelligence communities. We, you know, started getting ourselves into conflicts that we, that was not clear why we were in then, including Venezuela, I mean, sorry, including Ukraine. I mean, with Ukraine, it's like, that war only continues because we continue to, to

• 26:49Speaker 02

  arm it. Like, if we stopped, if we just were like, let's just have the, you know, just cut a deal wherever the border is right now, and you're just like, that's where it's going to stop, then you can, I mean, I don't know, I'm not sure what's preventing that from Trump, I think he's annoyed with Putin, but, yeah, I mean, my view is like, I don't see an interest in that war continuing. I don't know how it's in the interest of the working, of working class Americans or Americans. And I have the same questions about Iran and Venezuela and Cuba, but I think that is a totally different paradigm than the one that we had from 1945 to 2024.

• 27:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, the idea of tolerance for, you know, with the last administration, that seems just to be a narrative. It seemed to be a political strategy of keeping the borders open to increase populations in blue states, raise the census, get more congressional seats, and then a path to citizenship where you'd have permanent voters. That's what it seems like. And then there's also a ton of Medicaid fraud that's wrapped up in that, that we're now seeing.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's part of it. I mean, the Times did a piece on why Biden left the borders open.

• 27:56Joe Rogan?

  What was their?

• 27:58Speaker 02

  It was a funny piece. Like, there was this, it was, you know, part of it, he's so out of it, right? Like, there were just, it was not clear, like, there wasn't clear there was like a meeting where he was like, yeah, we're gonna just do this thing. They kind of concluded that, I think Cecilia Munoz, who's one of the more moderate advocates and was in the Obama administration, I think she said something like, Biden just wanted to give the left, just felt like he wanted to give the left what they wanted. And that's what, you know, the Soros think tanks and the, you know, the very progressive immigration groups have been, you know, have been advocating. He did the same thing on climate, so it makes sense. I know Elon talks a lot about how, oh, it's about importing voters and whatnot, maybe, but it's not even clear that that's a good, that's a strategy that's gonna work.

• 28:39Joe Rogan?

  Why not?

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Well, because, first of all, we don't know the Latinos. Like, why are, like, why do we assume Latinos are all gonna, you know, vote for Democrats?

• 28:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, if you've got them all on Medicaid and Social Security.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  The numbers there are, it's actually more complicated. Europe is definitely the case, that you have higher rates of crime and higher rates of social services among migrants. Here are Latino migrants traditionally, you know, you know, really thrive, you know, they do much better than, than the mostly Muslim immigrants in Europe. So, I mean, I'm skeptical. I mean, the other thing, the other statistic that I learned from David Shor, who's like the, one of the top Democrat pollsters, when he was talking to Ezra Klein after the 2024 elections, he was like, if all eligible voters had voted, Trump would have won by three percentage points rather than 1.5. So, it's also, so I always think it's kind of funny, because the Republicans are always like trying to make it harder

• 29:34Speaker 02

  for people to vote, but under that calculation anyway, and maybe it's just Trump, maybe other Republicans won't go to do it.

• 29:40Joe Rogan?

  When you say harder for people to vote, what do you mean? You mean mail-in voting?

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, just the whole effort to...

• 29:45Joe Rogan?

  But the problem is, mail-in voting has always been a vector for fraud.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  That's, it maybe. I don't know how much of it there is. I've seen different things on it.

• 29:55Joe Rogan?

  That goes back like decades. People have been talking about mail-in voting just being too open to fraud.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Well, but then, maybe, but then the question is, does it really benefit? I mean, in other words, if David Shor is right, if everybody who could vote had voted, Trump would have won, like, basically by twice the margin.

• 30:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, I don't know if that's necessarily true, but when I see laws like what California has, where you're not allowed to show ID, there's only, I mean, I've tried, tried to find some sort of charitable way where that would make sense, other than you want to open the door for fraud. There's nothing. This narrative that they say, oh, poor people don't have, like, you see Kamala Harris.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  They believe that, dude.

• 30:35Joe Rogan?

  They don't have a Xerox machine.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  No, but you ever see the thing, I think it was a guy, I don't know if he did it for Free Press, a guy was going around interviewing, well, first he interviewed liberals at, like, I think UC Berkeley, and he was like, you know, do you think that you should have to have an ID to vote? And they were like, no, because black people don't have IDs, and like.

• 30:51Joe Rogan?

  That's just because they're hearing that on NPR.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  No, no, I know, of course, but they believe that.

• 30:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  I mean, but I don't know if you saw that, it's an incredible video, because then he goes to, like, I think he goes to Harlem, or he goes to, like, a black neighborhood in New York, and he was just asking black people, he's like, do you have an ID on you? And it was like, everybody was like, yeah, like, what's the matter with you?

• 31:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also, we just got done with three years of you need an ID to prove that you have been vaccinated. So you need to be able to have that to go to work, to get on a plane, to eat at a restaurant. It didn't make any sense. It was so immediately contradicting what had just gone down, you know, months earlier. It's just stupid.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, that was about, that was because the left wanted to control people's behavior. And on voting, they, the old, I know, because I just, when I talk to my progressive friends about it, you know, and family and friends, it's, it's very much like, no, we can't put barriers in the way of voting, because that's what they did during Jim Crow. I mean, that's where it goes back to.

• 31:43Joe Rogan?

  ID is not a barrier. It's just an insurance that you're a citizen while you're voting.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  And then they say there's really not much, they say there's very little fraud. I'm just telling you what they say. I'm not saying I agree. I'm just saying what they say.

• 31:55Joe Rogan?

  Who is they, though?

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Progressives, yeah.

• 31:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but do you believe that? That's horseshit. That's a horseshit.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  I think they believe it. I'll put it that way.

• 32:01Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Yes, I do.

• 32:02Joe Rogan?

  I think they just say it because that's the thing that everybody says. I think it's a group thing. I mean, I think if you sit down with any rational person and no one's watching, you know, there's no cameras on them. And you ask them, does that make any sense? No one would say it makes any sense. Most people in this country who are citizens have some form of ID or can get some form of ID. And it's entirely reasonable to ask people to prove that you are who you are if you're voting for the President of the United States. That seems pretty reasonable.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  I'm, I, I, I find it totally reasonable and I support it. I'm just saying that if you make it, I'm just saying you may, the Republicans may, it may result in outcomes that are not predictable ones that they think they'll get. Just because Trump, at least, and Trump is maybe, you know, a special case, but I mean, he's able to turn out reluctant voters. Like, he motivated people to vote.

• 32:50Joe Rogan?

  Because people were fed up with what had gone on in the last four years. And I think the open border was the biggest one. I mean, it was one of the biggest ones because people just felt hopeless. Like, this is crazy. Like, what you're doing, you're letting in what's equivalent, at least, if you're, if you're just being charitable, it's 10 million people.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  It was, it was huge.

• 33:12Joe Rogan?

  If you're just being conservative, it's 10 times Austin. You let 10 Austons in, in four years of people who you have no idea who they are.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and Americans were on board with closing the borders. And then when it came time to actually asking all the, getting those folks to leave that came in, the, all the support disappeared, right? I mean-

• 33:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's not asking them to leave, it's showing up at Home Depot and just rounding people up and raiding places and going to restaurants and pulling people out of their houses. I think people got very uncomfortable with the idea of militarized police wearing masks on the street.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:47Joe Rogan?

  And then when you find out that these guys have only been trained for seven weeks and they're, they get a $50,000 signing bonus. And then you find out that a giant percentage of them are Latino, which is kind of crazy. You know, like the two guys who shot that guy in Minnesota, they're both Latino.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  And, yeah, I mean, that's what you get when you have completely untrained, unprepared people, disasters like that.

• 34:09Joe Rogan?

  The whole Minnesota thing with Alex Perry is a complete clusterfuck. I still not have, have not seen verification of whether or not- The narrative that makes sense is true, but the narrative that makes sense was that there was an accidental discharge of his gun as they were pulling it away from him. And then that led to them thinking that maybe he still had the gun on him, because you're in the chaos of arresting someone. Someone says he has a gun, a gun goes off, and then they shoot the guy.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. I bet when you go, I bet when they do the proper evaluation of it, they're gonna find multiple mistakes.

• 34:43Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  By the law enforcement in that situation.

• 34:45Joe Rogan?

  That, and then there was the thing with the woman who got shot, where you have a guy who had almost been run over just a couple of weeks before, and been dragged in his car. The guy who shot her had been dragged by another vehicle.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  Ah, I didn't see that. That's fascinating.

• 34:59Joe Rogan?

  I think he got dragged like 300 feet too, something crazy. So, when a car's coming at him, you could imagine this guy's got some PTSD from that, and...

• 35:08Speaker 02

  He should not have been, he should not have been...

• 35:10Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  And also, Alex Credy-

• 35:12Joe Rogan?

  He certainly shouldn't have said "that fucking bitch", like, after he shoots her in the face, too. That's crazy, too.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the reaction, just the heartlessness of the reaction to the killings-

• 35:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's horrible.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Was terrible, including by the administration, that's probably why Kristi Noem ended up having to go.

• 35:27Joe Rogan?

  But then, on the other side, these protests are organized. They're organized and they're paid for, which is also something to be, that people need to understand. These are not organic protests. It's not organic that it just happened to be taking place in the very same place where you found hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud, right? This is one of the clearest, most obvious distractions you've ever seen, like, in the public arena, like, where you have these people who are being paid to protest. They, they give them money to go out there and protest. They give them signs. They're organizing it. They have signal groups. They're doxing all these different ICE workers. They find out what their license plate numbers are. They find out where they're staying. They go to the hotel. The cops, the

• 36:11Joe Rogan?

  local cops are being told to stand down. So, you've got it like this, this convergence of all these factors that lead to chaos. And, you know-

• 36:23Joe Rogan?

  Mike Benz was talking about it and he was essentially saying it's a mathematical thing and that if you have these things play out, you're going to have a certain amount. It was Mike Benz, right? It was saying that it was a certain amount of people that are, you're gonna have incidences. You're just playing it out over the numbers. Certain amount of these protests, you have organized protests, you have untrained ICE agents, you have a lot of chaos, you have support for people screaming in the streets, someone gets shot, boom, and then it moves the needle. And this is calculated.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:54Joe Rogan?

  They want this to happen. They want it to happen this way because then this kills all the support for people that, you know, were kind of on the fence whether or not I should be deporting all illegals. Excuse me, what they should, excuse me, whether they should just go after violent criminals and, and then there's these weird narratives like, oh, only 14% are violent criminals that have been arrested. Yeah, but 60% are criminals. 60% of the people plus were criminals. And like, what, by what definition violent criminals? Like, what do you, like, what do you, is it okay if they just come in here and rip people off? Like, are you fine with that? It's just like the violent ones we need to get rid of? Like?

• 37:39Speaker 02

  I think they didn't, yeah, they did, they did a fairly poor job of it. Like, why were they focused on, on Minneapolis? I think most people don't understand how radical the left in Minneapolis is. Because you think it's a midwestern place, but it's actually got a long radical left tradition.

• 37:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  And as you were saying, I mean, Alex Preddy, he should have been arrested several days before when he had a gun on him and got into an altercation with the police. They should have arrested him then and then they could have, the judge could have done a lot of different things, but they could have taken away his gun, they could have put a restraining order on him. So the next time he showed up and people would know to look for him, then he would have been, you know, kept out of the area.

• 38:14Joe Rogan?

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• 39:00Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by the Apple Sports app. Guys, this is the ultimate best time of the year to be a sports fan. Football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer. The calendar is stacked, but it can also be hard to keep track of it all. And that is where the Apple Sports app comes into play. It is the fastest and easiest way to stay on top of all the action. With scores and play-by-play automatically showing up on your iPhone when the teams you follow are playing. That means you don't have to figure out when the games are on and how your team is doing, which is especially nice when you're following a bunch of teams and your friends are constantly blowing up the group chat.

• 39:42Joe Rogan?

  The Apple Sports app gives you all the important game details for your favorite sports teams, fast and simple. Download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone. Do you know the story about the gun that he was carrying? No. Okay, so he's carrying a gun called a Sig P320, which is notorious for accidental discharges. Not mean there's lawsuits all over the place. There's videos of cops in precincts bending over to pick something up and the gun goes off in his holster. There's a ton of these. So I don't know if this is completely accurate because this is obviously the fog of chaos of these type of altercations and situations, but...

• 40:27Joe Rogan?

  There's a video that many people have reviewed and it's their conclusion that if you watch the video when one of the ICE officers removes his gun, even though he does not have his finger on the trigger, has his hand on the gun and his fingers on the slide, as he's moving off, it appears the gun goes off. Now, they've zoomed in on it and shown that it does look like the gun's going off and it does correspond with the sound of a gunshot.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 40:56Joe Rogan?

  It's just hard to know.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  There is a sound. You hear a gunshot in the video.

• 40:59Joe Rogan?

  Yes, but I don't know if it's legitimate. It's hard to know, but if it was any other gun, like say if it was a Glock, I would say that doesn't make any sense. His finger's not on the trigger, it's not gonna go off. But that gun is notorious for going off. There's a guy online that he, he shows a video where he takes the gun and he manipulates the slide and it goes off.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah.

• 41:20Joe Rogan?

  And it goes off without nothing touching the trigger. No one, no one's pulling on it. It's just if you have, the other problem is, people alter guns, okay? So, the issue with the SIG was, they, they had, I believe up to 2017, they had a lighter trigger. And this lighter trigger, if the gun was dropped or if something happened to it, it was going off. And they determined it's, the gun does not have an internal safety like some other guns do. It's, I'm not an expert, so I don't know exactly what the trigger mechanism is, but my understanding is that the trigger mechanism is different than their other guns. Like, they have another gun that's notoriously reliable, it's a SIG P365. You could drop that gun, it's not gonna go off.

• 42:05Joe Rogan?

  It's not known for accidental discharge, but the 320 is known. And there's tons of videos of people demonstrating this online. There's a video where they're on a range and a gun goes off in a guy's holster, and the range instructor says, "What the fuck just happened?" And this guy, he points to this, you know, the, the gun that went off, and he said, "Is that a SIG?" And he goes, "Yeah." He goes, "Get that fucking thing off the range." So, it's that notorious, this one particular model. And it just happened to be the one particular model that Alex Preddy was carrying, which is fucking crazy.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Well, his behavior was really reckless. I, I, it's really hard for people to hold two ideas in their mind at the same time, like ICE. Messed that up, I think, clearly. And Alex Preddy, I mean, we see the earlier video, you know, where he kicks out the taillight of the ICE vehicle.

• 42:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  And he's, I mean, he's got a gun in the waistband of his jacket, it's hidden by the jacket. He gets into this altercation with the police. I mean, I had, when I posted about it, and I didn't say this, but a lot of the responses were suicide by cop. People were like, suicide by cop. I mean, and I'm not making that claim, but I mean, his behavior was, I mean, the recklessness of the gun choice mirrors the recklessness of his behavior in those instances. And I heard people being like, oh, well, he, you know, he was just defending that poor woman. There was a police officer engaged in an arrest of a person, and Alex Preddy intervened in that. I mean, I think you can mess around about it.

• 43:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, it was a little, I don't know if it was an arrest. The police officer shoved this woman.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was in an altercation with somebody.

• 43:39Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  You don't go, in other words, people go, oh, you gotta put yourself in, what do you think you're, like, what do you think's going on here? Like, that he should put himself in between that? No.

• 43:47Joe Rogan?

  The way the ICE officer, wasn't a police officer, right? It's an ICE officer, do you call them police? The way the ICE officer reacted to the woman, that bothered me. Like, he just shoved this lady, like, stepped forward and fully shoved her. That's when Alex Preddy gets involved. And then pepper spray comes out, and then...

• 44:07Speaker 02

  And Alex Preddy should have absolutely filmed that. Should have filmed the whole thing. That's exactly what he should have done.

• 44:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, other people were filming it. It was clear, there's cameras all over the place.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  But, but don't, I mean...

• 44:16Joe Rogan?

  Multiple angles.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, but it's like, I just don't think that's appropriate behavior. To go and get, that's not, that's not the tradition of like, I mean, I think there's a non-violent, left-wing tradition that's actually quite beautiful and spiritual.

• 44:30Joe Rogan?

  I agree.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  And it's Thoreau, and Gandhi, and King. That's not what was going on in Minneapolis. That's not at all what's going on.

• 44:37Joe Rogan?

  This is a part of the problem with these things being organized, right? Organized, paid protests, and also people being radicalized by narratives. Then, of course, very different than what was going on with the civil rights movement, you have social media. So, people are, like, radically pushed in one direction or another, and it's not clear whether or not... That's organic. It's not clear. Is this the voice of the people? Or is this bot farms that are pushing things in one direction or another? Is it, I mean, there's, there's a lot of people that I, I cautiously watch their, their posts on, on X where I know that they're AI. I know it's AI. I can just tell by the way they write.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Awful now. There's so much AI slop on X right now. It's bad. Yeah.

• 45:23Joe Rogan?

  It's weird because it does muddy the water and it does fuck with discourse, but it also radicalizes people one way or the other. It radicalizes people towards the right, radicalizes people towards the left. It's not good. And I think this guy, whatever his mental health struggles were, they, they appeared to exist. It seems like he was a troubled guy already. So a thing comes along that defines them, a cause that they're going to stand up for and fight for. Cause their life's probably a fucking mess and their mind is probably a mess. And they look at this, they look at it like it's this black and white binary situation.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 46:01Joe Rogan?

  Good guys and bad guys. And let's fuck all these fascists and he's kicking taillights and, you know, getting involved in pushing matches with ICE agents. It's like, that's crazy. Like all that stuff can, should and can get you arrested.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I think on the organized issue, remember like the civil rights movement was really well organized.

• 46:20Joe Rogan?

  Right. But people weren't being paid for it. It wasn't being promoted on social media. It wasn't people's job. There are people in America right now that are unemployed that are paid protesters for a living.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, that's the entire like left wing NGO sector is basically that.

• 46:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that's like, we saw, I see it at the level of San Francisco and for homelessness. They just go and you work at a government funded or Soros funded NGO. And then you do all that civil disobedience stuff on your free time. And, but I was, I just think, I think that you're, you were right, you were right when you're saying like, cause I think it's, the problem is not the organization. The problem is that the organization in Minneapolis had a goal of causing exactly what occurred.

• 47:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  The, the organization around the civil rights movement was to desegregate soda counters.

• 47:05Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  And so one of them was about actually. I mean, the other thing is that, Brad, pull back a little bit further. Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement was about affirming our liberal democratic Western civilization. Black people wanted to be a part of it.

• 47:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  This stuff where you're like, we want to, you know, open the border and defund the police and basically start attacking all of these institutions of liberal democratic civilization, that's different. That's a radicalized left.

• 47:33Joe Rogan?

  It's what Gad saw clearly. He defines it best as suicidal empathy.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  I don't agree with Gad on that.

• 47:40Joe Rogan?

  No? You don't think it's suicidal empathy?

• 47:42Speaker 02

  I don't think it's either suicidal or empathic. Because empathy is, empathy is like fundamentally-

• 47:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, he applies that to a lot of progressive ideas, not just the immigration thing. I don't think he necessarily, I think it was actually long before the immigration thing that he was talking about it suicidal empathy. The idea being that you need the rule of law to have a safe and peaceful society.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  Yes, that part's true.

• 48:05Joe Rogan?

  You do.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  That part's true.

• 48:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you need, you need no violence, you need no crime. And when you're taking criminals and just releasing them from jail and you have no cash bail and you're doing all these things, if you want to put on the fucking tinfoil hat, you would do that because you want chaos. Because you want chaos so you can have more rules and tighten down on people and have more control over the civilization.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think in that, I mean, I think, like, it's not empathic to allow more violent crime. Like, I don't think that's empathy towards victims. So, I don't think, I wouldn't call it empathy. And not only that, but like, when you look at like the, who these folks are, and I spent a lot of time looking at them and was one of them, they hate Western civilization. They hate the United States of America. They hate capitalism. Like, it's, it's an anti-civilization thing that's motivating it. And that's not to say that, like, MSNBC watchers don't feel, oh, I feel bad for that person. But, I mean, I always, you know, it's like- Like, the people I hear complain about ICE, they don't know any illegal immigrants. They've never talked to them, other than maybe their server, or that, you know, but they

• 49:10Speaker 02

  don't even really talk to their gardeners, or their, or their, you know, their maids. It's like, the idea that they, empathy implies a deep understanding of someone's situation. And so, I think it's a misdescription of empathy. I think in some ways, it's more quite the opposite of that, that they're actually not showing empathy for all the people that are hurt by their policies. Whether it's open borders, or enabling addiction, or euthanizing poor and mentally ill people in Canada, or transing kids, I don't think that those things are empathic. And the person that's doing them, I don't think is suicidal. If anything, they're actually quite full of themselves, and quite arrogant about what

• 49:51Speaker 02

  they're doing. I mean, I use the word pathological altruism in San Francisco, and I say it's close to Monckhausen syndrome by proxy. Maybe it is Monckhausen syndrome by proxy, but I don't think it's, I worry about, I worry about affirming, because I think that's how progressives go. They go, "Oh, well, if we, if the homeless are worse off, that's just because we care so much." I just don't think that's the case.

• 50:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's, the homeless thing is nuts, because the homeless thing is just a scam. And we know that, basically, because of California. Like, California, what's happened with the whole homeless budget is so insane, and that they vetoed audits of these budgets. There's been $24 billion spent. No one knows where it went. There's no accountability. And then the homeless situation increases.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  Well, that's why. I mean, remember, it's like, it's funny, like, I, my students just did a, we have something, we've been working on it too, like, the Canadian euthanasia program.

• 50:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  And it's like, every year, the numbers just keep going up and up. And it remind me of, when you interview homeless, you know, service providers in San Francisco, they'll be like, "Yeah, no, we're doing an amazing job. Every year, we serve more and more people." It's like, right, you have, you have all the, you have the wrong incentives. You're trying, you're, you have an incentive to serve, to, you have incentive to create homelessness, and that's what they've done.

• 51:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, if you get more money, if you have more homeless, your incentive is now not to eliminate homelessness, because that's your job.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Right. That's how you make all your money.

• 51:14Joe Rogan?

  When I first was alerted to that, I was like, "I can't believe this is real." Like, when you find out the amount of money that's involved in homelessness, like, that- They spent 24 billion dollars. Okay, where did that go? Where, and then there's no accountability? Okay. There's no fraud? You're saying there's no fraud? Zero?

• 51:34Speaker 02

  Well, I wish there was fraud. I mean, somebody was sort of like, can we expose? You know, like Nick Shirley exposed the daycare is not doing anything in Minnesota. I was like, I wish the homeless service providers weren't doing anything. If they're stealing the money, then there'd be a lot less homelessness.

• 51:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, so you think they're actually using the money to create homelessness?

• 51:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, think about like, so San Francisco was like between 100 and 120,000 dollars a year per homeless person. I think LA had a bargain of something more like 25,000. That's, that's just San Francisco. That doesn't count the 24 billion that California gave. So that money's going to, you know, single resident occupancy hotel owners. It's going to nonprofit service providers who are just bringing food and, you know, alcohol and drug paraphernalia to make it easier for people to do drugs and overdose and live in tents on the street. That's, it's very expensive to kill that many people that way. That's what San Francisco has proven.

• 52:33Joe Rogan?

  Right, but it's really about the amount of people where that's their industry. Like, there is an industry in taking care of the homeless situation and addressing the homeless situation. And, you know, Colian Noir, when he was on the podcast, he was explaining to me that he went to San Francisco and he was like, why is it so bad up here? Do they need money? He's like, no, no, no. This guy was a lawyer, was explaining it to me. He's a lawyer as well. I was explaining it to him, like, no, no, these people are getting money to deal with the homeless situation. And some of them are making quarter billion dollars a year and more, which is just nuts. And then it's not getting better. It's only getting worse. And yet they still keep getting that money. So it's like, there's zero incentive to make it better. There's only an incentive to make it worse.

• 53:18Joe Rogan?

  And then when you have no accountability. So there's no auditing of the money. 24 billion dollars is a lot of fucking money. So where, who's getting greased up? Where's that money going?

• 53:29Speaker 02

  Mostly it's into the, it's into the temporary, what they call, they call it permanent, it's propaganda word. It's a permanent supportive housing. It's neither permanent nor supportive. It's often warehousing addicts where they die. I mean, we know that they die at very high levels in those little, this is a little crummy, you know, single residence occupancy rooms.

• 53:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 53:47Speaker 02

  They bought a lot of motels that were, you know, low, low income, you know, low, you know, cheap motels, converting them, having, but they don't really, there's no, I mean, all that money should have gone into a centralized addiction and psychiatric care system. Calpsych is what it should have been. And instead, it's just, it's just kind of, yeah, it's just basically incentivizing people to live on the streets and use hard drugs and die in overdose.

• 54:12Joe Rogan?

  What's just so crazy, I mean, if you wanted to make it better, you'd incentivize them and pay them based on the amount of people that are no longer homeless.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Right. But they don't do that.

• 54:20Joe Rogan?

  But then the problem with that is, well, you're eventually going to fix it all, and then your business is going to go away.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  Right. And that's all happening, I think it's, I think it's all happening unconsciously. Like, there's no room, there's no, like, you know, secret room where they're rubbing their hands and being like, oh, that we're going to make a lot of money this way. It's just, you know, when you interview them, it's a very basic view. You know, it's just, these people are victims, they're victims of white supremacy and capitalism, and, and to victims, everything should be given and nothing required.

• 54:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think that's a nice narrative, but I think once you start getting monthly paychecks from, from the homeless industrial complex, I think your incentive is to keep this party going.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  Well, sure, but they, they, but they think it's good. I mean, they, they go, this shows how, how good we're doing, that we got a bigger budget this year, and that's how they, that's how they rationalize it. Yeah. Yeah.

• 55:10Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it's a sign of a very sick society, hence the title of your book, San Francisco Sicko, which is a great title. I mean, it's a sick place, and it was one of my favorite cities. It was an amazing city. Well, California's in-

• 55:24Joe Rogan?

  I filmed my Netflix special there in 2016. So in just the amount of time, in 10 years, it's completely fallen apart. When I was there in 2016, it was great. With the, I mean, there was always a lot of homeless people there, but you have that in any liberal city. But it was never an epidemic. It was never, like, tents everywhere and shit on the streets. That wasn't- The case, it was just, you know, it was a liberal city, a progressive liberal city, but it was cool. There was a lot of outdoor music, it was fun, it was a great place to go to restaurants and people walked around. It was a great city, filled with intelligent, interesting, open-minded people. Man, I lived there when I was a little kid. I was there during the Vietnam War. From age seven to 11, I lived in San Francisco.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  It's a little bit better now. They've had a new mayor. Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I want to acknowledge, I can't lie about it, it's a little bit better, I agree. I interview a lot of people still about what's going on. It's still there.

• 56:21Joe Rogan?

  But did you see what happened with the mayor?

• 56:23Speaker 02

  With his security guard?

• 56:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  Got pulled down, yeah.

• 56:25Joe Rogan?

  First of all, a security guard needs to learn some fucking jujitsu. The way he let that guy grab him, he didn't pummel, he didn't do anything. It looked like he had no understanding of what to do when that guy grabbed his body. Like, how is he a security guard? That's crazy. How can you be a security for the mayor if you literally don't know what to do in a clinch?

• 56:44Speaker 02

  I thought he looked like he didn't really see the guy as a threat or something? Like, maybe he thought he was just a crazy homeless guy or something?

• 56:50Joe Rogan?

  Even if I didn't see a guy as a threat, if a guy grabs me like that, I'm not gonna let him get that position on me.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  And he cut it back, probably cut his back of his head.

• 56:59Joe Rogan?

  He banged him on the ground. He body slammed him onto the fucking concrete.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Kind of a metaphor for the whole situation.

• 57:05Joe Rogan?

  The mayor just walks away, da, da, da, da, da. And he walked away like it was nothing. Like, he walked away, he didn't run.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  Did you see, though? Because I saw that video and I couldn't tell if the mayor actually saw what was happening.

• 57:14Joe Rogan?

  100%.

• 57:15Speaker 02

  He seemed like he was going, he was looking that way and his guy was to his left.

• 57:18Joe Rogan?

  He was here when they started physically struggling with each other. And then, when they're struggling with each other, he walks off, and then the guy gets body slammed.

• 57:26Speaker 02

  It was the weirdest video to watch. Yeah, because they both seemed so nonchalant. They both seemed, yeah, as a metaphor for the city.

• 57:32Joe Rogan?

  This is a different angle. The mayor actually is running off to get help.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  Oh, he is, okay.

• 57:36Joe Rogan?

  Running off? Yeah, let me refresh this real quick. What was it? Yeah. Show me.

• 57:42Speaker 05

  So there's the mayor right there.

• 57:43Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 57:45Speaker 05

  He pushes this guy here in a second. The mayor sort of, as soon as he gets to the sidewalk, he takes off.

• 57:50Joe Rogan?

  So why, why are they hanging out with this guy in the first place?

• 57:53Speaker 02

  That looks like they're in Camden right there.

• 57:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so the security guard started it, and he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.

• 57:59Speaker 05

  And there's the mayor over here.

• 58:00Joe Rogan?

  Okay. Oh, look at his, like, shitty technique.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  Much better video.

• 58:05Joe Rogan?

  And the other guy's a lot stronger than him. So the mayor is...

• 58:08Speaker 05

  He walks off. Hold on, he takes, he starts running right.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  He seems relaxed.

• 58:12Joe Rogan?

  Okay. Okay, he did start walking slowly and then starts...

• 58:17Speaker 05

  He's probably gonna get help.

• 58:18Joe Rogan?

  That guy started it all. He pushed that guy. If you're a security guy, the last thing you want to do when there's one of you and two of those other guys is deal with a situation that way, where you push a guy.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  I'm, I have to say, it's so interesting you say it. I'm always surprised when I see them do, like, that was the same thing that happened with the preddy. We were just talking about it.

• 58:39Joe Rogan?

  Don't you think this guy's probably armed too? I mean, but also, he shouldn't have pushed that guy that way. I mean, the whole thing is fucking stupid.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Look at the, look at the chaos. There's somebody else just running around, another homeless person or something.

• 58:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:54Joe Rogan?

  The other guy's probably talking shit. I bet that guy's funny. I bet he's saying, "The guy with the big coat on?" I mean, I don't, for the life of me, none of it makes sense.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:06Joe Rogan?

  None of it makes sense. The, the, the mayor walking off casually and then eventually running, it doesn't make sense that the security guy just walked up to those guys and pushed them when you're details to take care of the mayor? You should be escorting him around that and getting him away from any potential trouble. Like, the brazenness of just walking up and pushing that guy, well, you don't know how to fight at all. It's very clear when you watch the way they grappled with each other. He doesn't know what he's doing. This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. April 15th is coming fast. There's been so many tax law changes this year, which means you're going to need an expert who has your back. You're in luck. TurboTax now has in-person locations nationwide.

• 59:49Joe Rogan?

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• 59:59Joe Rogan?

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• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  Seems like we're having a lot of security problems in our society right now. It's wild, right? I can't believe the pushing, I mean, that's the same with the pretty thing, like, why pushing, is that like a, is that like an important law enforcement technique? I mean, what is that?

• 1:00:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, no, that, he pushed a small woman. The, the ice guy just completely, just full on shoves this small woman.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  Which means he was emotionally out of control first, right? It means that he was angry, he was angry.

• 1:00:35Joe Rogan?

  These guys are not like special forces guys. They're not well trained. These guys are, that's seven weeks. Seven weeks and a lot of them are financially incentivized. Cause like, if you can get $50,000, like if you're in debt and then you could take this job on, I don't, when they get the $50,000, how long do they have to stay on the job for to, to have that money? To have that signing bonus? Or is it one of those things where you get the $50,000 as a signing bonus, but you pay it like a record deal type deal? Where you, it's not really your money, you have to make it up later?

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  I imagine, yeah.

• 1:01:08Joe Rogan?

  Still, if you can get $50,000, there's a lot of people that'll take that job.

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, they're just, um, yeah, though it was just a bunch of bad, bad choices made by the Trump administration on that one.

• 1:01:20Speaker 05

  Someone's Reddit comments saying they have no personal experience, but they've heard that it's 50K over four years. If you're in good standing at the end of those four years.

• 1:01:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so you only get it after four years?

• 1:01:31Speaker 05

  But that might not, yeah.

• 1:01:32Joe Rogan?

  Right. But for some people that have no job opportunities and no, nothing on the horizon, that $50,000 looks like, look, it's an extra 25K a year or an extra, you know, 25K, um, for, for four years? For 50 for four years?

• 1:01:49Speaker 05

  Another person says that's incorrect, it's broken in 10 payments, once at 90 days, then once every year for four more years.

• 1:01:54Joe Rogan?

  Anyway, it's broken. Either way, it's $50,000 that you would not have been able to make ordinarily.

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  I mean, we had police shortages before 2020. We had a bunch of police shortages after that, mostly by police officers who were just, felt mistreated by the society and by their local mayors who said that they were evil.

• 1:02:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, didn't a lot of cops resign when Donnie got elected?

• 1:02:15Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm sure. And then a COVID drove, and then they, and a bunch of police officers driven out during COVID. So there was already our, our security forces have been, you know, and they were just... People underestimate how important it is to feel like important in your job and respected. And it's not just about the money because they would be offering more money. But I think a lot of people are like, oh, no, I don't want to be in a job where people are like spitting at me or throwing urine.

• 1:02:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, not just that, a job where your life is on the line.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, your life is already on the line and then you're mistreated by the wider society, which actually creates additional risks, you know, as this chaos in Minneapolis shows. So, yeah, it's just, um, people want to believe that they're doing something that is appreciated by the community. And so when the community decides that they're against policing, your civilization's pretty far gone.

• 1:02:59Joe Rogan?

  Right, but this is the difference between policing and this ICE thing. The ICE thing is a different thing, right? They're looking at it differently. It's not like you're watching a violent altercation take place. The police show up and people are spitting on them like you're trying to break up a violent crime. This is different. They're looking at it like in the progressive narrative is like no one's illegal on stolen land and we need to have open borders and illegals or immigrants, rather, are the foundation of this country. And you hear all that, those narratives.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  The president and the administration, they wanted to pick a fight, obviously, with this left wing, with activists in this left wing city. They thought it would redound to their benefit to show how crazy the left was and it backfired on them.

• 1:03:39Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think they wanted to do something about the amount of illegal fraud that was just recently exposed in Minneapolis.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  But I don't know that that's, but you wouldn't do it with ICE raids, though. I mean.

• 1:03:50Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's illegal immigrants. If you have illegal immigrants that are responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud and you know at least some of them are illegal, it seems rational that you would send ICE in to find out who's illegal and who's not and put a stop to some of it. And there's also this nationwide focus on this one place because of the Nick Shirley videos.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, though I think that the motivate, my understanding is that the motivation was to motivate people that are here illegally to self deport. And so that that's the, the main part of the strategy is this show of force. Because of course it's, they wanted the publicity. They wanted people to be scared and self deport. They claim that, you know, 1.3 million people self deported or 1.4 and then another 400,000 or 600,000 deported through the normal channels. And apparently they're just limited to how many people they can actually deport through the normal channels. But they can get, people can self deport, they can just go.

• 1:04:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  And because of course, there's this thing called e-verify where you just have the employers have to prove that everybody you're employing is here legally and they don't want to do that. The administration doesn't want to do that because they'll upset in particular like the agricultural lobby.

• 1:04:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:58Speaker 02

  But others who depend on construction who depend on so it's a it's a funny it's not great. I don't know. I'm not saying that there's that I have the perfect, you know, answer to the other one, but obviously like politically, the president doesn't feel like they can do e-verify and maintain support from the business community for his political agenda. So you end up but you end up with a kind of underclass that's here illegally, but that's protected because they're working in a sector that the president and the administration wants to protect. But then you're also self-deporting people. I'm not sure exactly how they're thinking about it, but that appears to be what the heart of their goal is.

• 1:05:36Joe Rogan?

  Well, this was always, you know, what a lot of people on the left back in the day would say that illegal immigrants was this was like a Koch brothers thing. This was like a right wing thing that they wanted this for for exactly what you just described.

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:52Joe Rogan?

  And that this is not a left wing progressive idea and that what it would do was would lower the wages for the lower class, the middle class of this country and it would be bad for the citizens. And so you don't want unchecked illegal immigration. Unchecked illegal immigration would just be for the right because they're the ones who own these massive corporations that are profiting off of illegal labor. They don't have to pay them benefits. They don't have to pay them healthcare, any of the things that are, you know, that cost money.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the on the left was always balancing a sort of open society, you know, they wanted the Soros foundation always wanted to have a free movement of people to that was sort of their view of why part why the Holocaust occurred is that you couldn't move people, you know, or at least the persecutions, you couldn't move people as easily. But then you had the working class, you know, who were negatively affected by bringing in migrants who would push down wages and unions who are a big part of the Democrat party. So the Democrats were sort of divided on it for a while, but they managed it and Hillary and Obama would sort of if you look at when they were competing in 2008, they were very carefully. Like, there was a whole thing around like, driver's licenses, whether she would give them or not. And Obama accused Hillary of, of kind of playing both sides of it, you know, typical thing.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  But they also both spoke out strongly against, uh, mass migration. Fast forward 10 years, you know, fast forward much more than that, it was at 16 years into, in today. And now you've got a much more working class Republican Party who's unified around, uh, keeping the borders closed and, and restricting the supply of low income, unskilled workers. Because, I mean, this is obvi- I mean, it's, it was really weird to watch people that are always defending supply and demand and economics and economic policy, then say, oh, no, but having open borders and having all these working class people come in, um, is gonna have no impact on wages, when obviously it would. And I think that's now, that's also now gone. I think that's another thing that's just, Trump has just changed. I don't think you're gonna see Democrats going back to advocating that kind of mass migration again.

• 1:07:49Joe Rogan?

  Right, but you could see a world where they would push back against what has happened, what, they would say the barbaric nature of some of these ICE raids. And then saying, from, there's a filtered wa- ice water in that too, if you'd like. You don't have to not have your bottle, we don't care.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  Oh, I think it's in the shot, no.

• 1:08:08Joe Rogan?

  No, it doesn't matter, we don't care. It doesn't matter.

• 1:08:12Joe Rogan?

  But you could see how they could go back to a much looser border policy.

• 1:08:17Speaker 02

  I think it'd be-

• 1:08:17Joe Rogan?

  And get back to what they're, because it wasn't-

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  I think they won't, I think they won't. I think the closed border, I mean, I think that that sweet spot of public opinion is like, people really wanna close, I think it was just really, um-

• 1:08:28Joe Rogan?

  But I don't think public opinion supported an open border, even on the left.

• 1:08:32Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:08:32Joe Rogan?

  During those last four years, but yet they did it anyway.

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:08:35Joe Rogan?

  And they were moving people to blue states. They were moving people to swing states. They were flying people in, busing people, they were doing it on purpose.

• 1:08:42Speaker 02

  Isn't that, but, isn't that also though, because the blue state governors were more welcoming of them?

• 1:08:46Joe Rogan?

  There's a little bit of that, but there was also the idea that you're going to juice up the congressional seats, because you're gonna change the census.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  Maybe although California lost seats, right?

• 1:08:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, because California's done such a fucking terrible job of governing their state. It's so, that place is so crazy, like every time there's some new law that they're trying to push through, some new bill, I'm like, do they just want everyone to leave?

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  Well, they drove the billionaires out, right?

• 1:09:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  I mean, I know they drove out David Sacks, came to Austin, I think Mark Zuckerberg moved to Florida. I heard rumors of Steven Spielberg, I don't know if that's, I don't want to spread disinformation. I don't want to spread misinformation, but I heard he was leaving, but yeah, it's called the...

• 1:09:24Joe Rogan?

  The thing that drives me the most nuts is when these progressive talking heads saying they don't want to pay their fair share. With the amount of waste and fraud, why would you? You don't think there should be some accountability to how much fucking waste and fraud that has been clearly demonstrated? Like, the solution is just give more money, oh, and they can do it because they have it. So what? You just give more money and now it's $30 billion goes to homeless with no accountability? Like, what are you saying? Like, where do you think this money's gonna go where it's actually gonna help people and affect things in a positive way? There's been no indication that that's the case, that the real problem is they just haven't had enough money from the billionaires.

• 1:10:06Joe Rogan?

  That's fucking ludicrous. That idea is ludicrous. It's such a lazy, intellectually lazy way of framing this whole discussion. That's saying, oh, they don't want to pay their fair share. Fuck you. That's not what's going on here. What's going on here, you have a completely incompetent government that's absolutely corrupt, and they want more money.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:26Joe Rogan?

  Gas is like $8 a gallon almost now. That's bananas.

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  They were gonna shut down, I mean, the refiners were being shut down. And that initiative, the billionaires' tax, is an SEIU initiative, so meaning it's the union that covers healthcare workers, like nurses. They're very radical, very radical left, and the money is to provide Medicaid for undocumented immigrants. That's what they want it for, right? So, like, that's the whole thing, and so you literally get the, this is like, this is what people worry about, democracy. You get all the, it's very democratic, but you get these powerful unions and they're able to... To change the laws like that. I mean, it's called the Curly effect because there was a Boston mayor named Curly who made everything so bad for his political opponents that they left.

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  But the consequence was that he ended up gaining more power. So when everybody moves to, you know, when all the like moderate Democrats move to Austin, or Miami, or Denver, or wherever, California just ends up locked in more to a progressive agenda. That's the problem.

• 1:11:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think the idea is that it's so good there that most people are just going to tolerate whatever new bullshit they throw your way.

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. And also, I mean, it seems like the tech community is now backing the San Jose mayor who's running, who's a very, he's Democrat, very moderate, you know, but he's been critical of Gavin.

• 1:11:45Joe Rogan?

  Running for governor?

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, Matt Mahan. So keep your eyes on him. I mean, he's not, he's not like maybe the most exciting guy, but he's definitely running as a moderate.

• 1:11:56Joe Rogan?

  That might be good.

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  I think he's giving some money. Yeah.

• 1:11:57Joe Rogan?

  It seems like the exciting people are a fucking problem.

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  I know. They want, he might be enough to, I don't know, it's hard to say, but it does look like, because I mean, look, there's plenty of, the tech community only woke up politically in 2024. That's how long it took. And it really took things getting so bad, where they were telling Marc Andreessen, as he said to you on your show, that they were shutting off whole parts of AI. The Biden administration was openly threatening AI in this huge new, and you know, there's concerns. I'm not saying that there's not, but I think the, I think at some point, the tech community, which had been, you know, either leaning Democrat, you know, for a long time, since the Obama era, you know, or wanted to stay out of politics because they just want to focus on their machines and their investments. They don't really want to be involved in politics. But they woke up in 2024. And so

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  hopefully, because it's not, I mean, when you see what Soros has done, and you really appreciate the power that one billionaire can have, you kind of go, why is there nothing like that, you know, on the other side? Why is it so dominated by Soros? And so I hope that that's starting to happen. But yeah, when you start to chase out the billionaires, and the billionaires just give up on California, then it's got to be whoever's remaining to try to, you know, put the money behind the guy that can get some change there.

• 1:13:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's, I mean, I don't see a pathway where California anytime soon turns around. I don't see how it could. I feel like it's, the momentum has shifted so far in a terrible direction, and the solutions are always tax more.

• 1:13:26Joe Rogan?

  Take more money from people? And you see of this completely corrupt, irresponsible, fraud-ridden, wasteful government that wants more of your money. And the solution is, if we take more money, we're gonna make things better. Which is just insanity. This episode is brought to you by The Mosquito Bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part? It's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat, where the stakes were life and death.

• 1:14:10Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  I mean, things that can't go on, don't. So, I mean, you could see it, right? I mean, say Matt Mahan or somebody more moderate gets in to be governor. Rick Caruso runs for LA mayor again. I mean, honestly, like, if somebody can't defeat Karen Bass after she let Los Angeles burn away, which is now, we now know for a fact was just totally preventable, absolutely preventable. I was saying at the time, but now we know. They tried to rewrite the report, but it's clear it was totally preventable.

• 1:15:54Joe Rogan?

  How'd they try to rewrite the report?

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  Well, the report, you know, said, here's all the things that the fire department should have done that didn't happen. And ultimately, you know, the mayor is the one that chooses the fire chief and fires the fire chief. And the mayor was warned, they were warned. And she goes to, flies to Ghana for this little junket presidential inauguration, palling around when she should have been in LA with a, at a command headquarters. And, you know, and if she wasn't, then Gavin should have been. You know, Schwarzenegger, towards the end of his administration, they would just mobilize planes full of water, you know, huge, those huge cargo planes full of water before there were fires, just to start to circulate, just to get ready to put stuff out. This idea that, there was this idea promoted that it was inevitable that the fires, that oh, eventually it's just, no. Like, it's absurd.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  Like, of course you can protect it with adequate fire. Oh, the pipes weren't big enough? No. Like, maintain your reservoirs, have water in them. Even the one that was like, was like not repaired yet, which should have been repaired, they could have kept, they could have air gapped the pipes so that it didn't contaminate the water supply, but left it for firefighting. They didn't do that. They didn't station the engines where they needed to station them. Nobody was on, you know, it's like, they're not taking responsibility. Like, they weren't taking responsibility for it. So, anyway, to the point being, get a new governor, you get a better mayor of LA, you've got a guy in San Francisco now who I think has, still has a lot of potential. I mean, this latest video, you know, showing the chaos there, but you, with that, I think you could fix things.

• 1:17:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's not him, though.

• 1:17:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not his fault.

• 1:17:22Joe Rogan?

  His, you know, the criticism of him is he walked away too casually.

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No big deal. Yeah, so, I mean, I think there is a, there is a way for California to come out. And my view is like, look, you've got, it's, it's on the tech billionaires. They, you know... And I know some of them have left and obviously they don't need, but there's still a lot of billionaire, rich guys in California that are perfectly capable of financing an alternative effort. The vote, you know, 75% of San Francisco voters want to arrest people using fentanyl in public. They want to arrest them. Okay, that sounds so, that's so taboo and progressive. That's 75% of San Francisco voters. So the voters are not, they're not the radical left. Some ways they're radicalized in their hatred of Trump and the Trump derangement syndrome.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  But I mean, everyone like Caruso and Mahan and anybody else there will all just be able to say they hate Trump like everybody else.

• 1:18:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think they've seen the consequences of these policies.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. There's, people are, people are really, there's, it's not like anything has changed that significantly. They will, in fact, when I interview people in San Francisco, they're a little reluctant to admit that it's gotten better because I think they don't want to take any pressure off the politicians. So, I mean, I do think it's, it's rescuable, but it's hard.

• 1:18:34Joe Rogan?

  When you say it's gotten better, like how so?

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  Mostly the encampments are being broken up. Now, you see a little, you see more of that sort of thing that we just saw in the video where there's like, I call them like a little more of like a nest. You know, there's just a little home.

• 1:18:47Joe Rogan?

  So it's not an entire block?

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  Encampments, like, yeah, the whole block.

• 1:18:50Joe Rogan?

  Not like Skid Row?

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  That's in Oakland. That's in Skid Row.

• 1:18:53Joe Rogan?

  Oakland's nuts.

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  Oakland is, Oakland might not be savable. They had a chance to save themselves and they ended up voting for the wrong person for mayor and it's just as bad as ever. So, but I think if you get San Francisco, LA and a new governor in place, I think you've got the makings to save it.

• 1:19:09Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen this video, this guy does this description of what's going on in Oakland and then drives across the county line into the next place and it's immediately all done? And you just see what the difference between two different forms of government and how it works?

• 1:19:24Speaker 02

  I didn't see that one, but I saw the one between Venice and Santa Monica. I was there when the Venice and Santa Monica, it was somewhere like, you're like, why are there tents? Why aren't there any tents there? It's like, that's Santa Monica. It's different.

• 1:19:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's still some.

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  Santa Monica got bad too.

• 1:19:37Joe Rogan?

  But they cleaned it up a little bit better. But Venice is bananas. It's just, but Venice is nothing compared to Skid Row. Skid Row is 50 blocks.

• 1:19:45Speaker 02

  Venice is okay now. Venice is okay now. Yeah, they cleaned that up pretty quickly and then they, and then the voters fired their city council member who represented them, who was total crazy radical, Chester Boudin level radical and replaced him with a more moderate person. So, but yeah.

• 1:20:01Joe Rogan?

  So like when you go to the beach, it's not chaos anymore?

• 1:20:03Speaker 02

  No, I mean. I'm not gonna, there's always, it's, but I mean, remember before it was just, it was tense everywhere. I mean, it was chaos.

• 1:20:10Joe Rogan?

  Right, everywhere.

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  And they were dug in, you know, it was like crazy. So no, that's gone, um, but Skid Row, it's bad as ever.

• 1:20:17Joe Rogan?

  Skid Row is fifty blocks. Fifty blocks is so crazy. Fifty blocks of tents and homeless people. When we first heard that, I was like, that's gotta be wrong, it's probably five blocks. No, it's five zero, fifty blocks. That's an enormous amount of land that's completely covered by homeless encampments.

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  There's like a whole genre of like, of like influencers when they first visit Skid Row. Cause everyone hears about it and then you see like their, their tweets are just like, they're just like all, I couldn't believe. Like I think it's like maybe Ben Shapiro or there's various conservative influencers who have gone to Skid Row and they're like, I had no idea.

• 1:20:50Joe Rogan?

  There was a comic.

• 1:20:51Speaker 02

  You have no idea until you see it.

• 1:20:52Joe Rogan?

  There was a comic from the Comedy Store that filmed something. He went like undercover and he had like in his past, he had some, I don't, I don't think, I think currently he was sober when he did this. But he decided to go there and film and stay in one of these encampments just to show what it was like. And this is like two thousand six-ish, six-ish, somewhere around there. And it was fucking nuts, even back then. And you know, we talked about the story of how Skid Row with the whole Jerome Hotel and how it all it started. Skid Row was the place where they would take all the homeless people and all the people that were problematic and they would move them there and keep them there.

• 1:21:34Joe Rogan?

  And the idea was they just keep them out of Beverly Hills, keep them away from Hollywood. We're doing movies and we've got famous people walking around, we can't have homeless people. So just snatch them up, take them downtown and contain them. So they had them contained in this area and they called it Skid Row. And then it just kept getting bigger.

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  It's not that different from the Tender One in the sense that these are places where the single resident, those are the places where the really cheap hotels were. They were like often for like work, you know, like working people that were in town temporarily, like temporary hotels. Some of them would just be cages, there were no walls, like you would just get your own little, that was how primitive they were. And then it'd be just evolved over time and then they became, all of them became subsidized for, for the homeless. But yeah, it's um, I don't thi- I think California, I think it's important, I think with Trump, and again, like him or hate him or disagree or whatever, you see the potential of this country in particular to make a big change. And I think that it's ultimately resulted from a unleashing of, you know, social media made it all possible, it allowed for people to get, you know, accurate information for the first time in a different paradigm.

• 1:22:38Speaker 02

  So I, I, I don't want to lose hope on the Golden State.

• 1:22:41Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, but you lost hope on Oakland.

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, but maybe I never had hope for Oakland, so.

• 1:22:50Joe Rogan?

  One point in time, Oakland was great.

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean Jerry Brown actually brought it up a bit, you know, got it more development there, but yeah, it's all about governance.

• 1:22:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it is. Um, I guess.

• 1:23:02Speaker 02

  Hey, can I use the bathroom?

• 1:23:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. We'll pause, we'll be right back, folks. I just, uh, sent Jamie something funny that someone just sent me about San Francisco. There's this guy, uh, I think he calls himself the gay Republican.

• 1:23:16Speaker 02

  The gay Republican?

• 1:23:18Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of those, actually, um, but, which is, shouldn't shock people.

• 1:23:24Speaker 02

  Their clause is about the Republican part now, that's the thing.

• 1:23:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, it depends on how wealthy they are. I mean, some of them are pretty, you know, Peter Thiel, pretty open about it.

• 1:23:31Speaker 02

  He will, he was, yeah, about his Republicanism.

• 1:23:34Joe Rogan?

  Watch this.

• 1:23:35Speaker 06

  Fran Transit, we refuse to release crime surveillance videos because it will make people racist. Releasing videos would create a racial bias in the riders against minorities on the trains. Why would it do that, San Fran Transit? Why would it, why would it create a bias? Is there, is there a reoccurring theme among the people committing crimes?

• 1:23:55Speaker 02

  You could say that about European crime statistics as well. That's also why the, the Germans actually, uh, in particular, but I think other European countries did not want to release.

• 1:24:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  Uh, but they, they, they did get them out, they have come out now, so.

• 1:24:09Joe Rogan?

  And the UK.

• 1:24:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:14Joe Rogan?

  Um, so, let's move on to happier subjects, shall we? So what do you think about all this UAP talk? It's one thing that Trump has said that he's going to release whatever files that they might have on UAPs, alien terrestrial beings, all this jazz. I talked to Jesse Michaels about it. He is highly skeptical. And he said the people that are involved are all old guard and, you know, they're just, it's just going to be a bunch of horseshit.

• 1:24:44Speaker 02

  Maybe. I mean, just first of all, look, I mean, I think whatever you think about the phenomenon, this is amazing. I mean, the president just said he's going to release all these things. So I mean, after decades of saying, we're not interested in this, we're not, we're not following this, we're shutting down Blue Book, you know, there's nothing there. They're like, he's, he's saying, so I mean, that right there is, is I think amazing. And I thought the whole thing was amazing. Like Obama comes out and he goes, well, there's definitely aliens. Oh, but they're not on Area 51 unless they're hiding it from presidents, which is like a well-established conspiracy theory. So to have Obama even say that. And then Trump comes up and he goes, he goes, Obama revealed classified information with a little grin on his face because he's a little rivalry with Obama. I might help him out by declassifying.

• 1:25:29Speaker 02

  And then a few hours later, he did. I mean, I, what can't you like about that? I mean, I think that-

• 1:25:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's theater. That's what you can't like about-

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  It's theater, but I mean-

• 1:25:38Joe Rogan?

  Until something really comes out, this is just another distraction to keep us from thinking about all the other things that are going on.

• 1:25:45Speaker 02

  But you can't be so, I mean, we should get into Epstein files too, because I do think I have a different view of Epstein now. But, um, look, I just think we've been asking for more transparency like we had in this very brief period in the mid 70s with the Church Committee hearings. It really took a whole watergate. It took something big. It's been over 50 years. We got a lot of Epstein files. Yes, there's some missing, but we got JFK files, Amelia Earhart files, and now we're going to get some UFO files. Is it going to be everything? Of course not. Like, there's just no way. Um, you know, but I don't think like, I think we should hold, we should be happy that like there is an acknowledgement that there's a lot of government files and that there's some commitment to release them. Because I do think like, it's easier to get new Epstein files released after you have some Epstein files released than if you have none.

• 1:26:30Speaker 02

  And I feel the same way about UFOs.

• 1:26:32Joe Rogan?

  Okay. So it's easier to get more UFO files released, but like- Release like

• 1:26:40Speaker 02

  What do we want? I think one of it is like, what do we want? And I've been, you know, I respect John Greenwald a lot. He runs something called theblackvault.com where he has been FOIA-ing, he's been issuing, you know, Freedom of Information Act requests on UAP, but also a ton of other issues since the mid 90s, when he was like 15 years old. He became obsessed with doing FOIA requests. And he has identified a number of documents that we know exist with redactions. One of them is the UAP task force, which has a line that just says, "Potential explanations." You know, the first explanation is redacted, it's blacked out. The second one is, you know, some sort of natural phenomenon. Number three is blacked out, is redacted. Unredact those. I mean, come on, guys. You can't tell me, "Oh, we have to protect our censor

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  data." Come on, guys. I mean, like, that's not censor data. Tell us what the potential explanations are. In terms of the censor data, John also made a great point. Do you remember when the Pentagon released the video of the Russian jet dumping fuel on one of our drones? There's like a famous video where they show it's a hostile act by the Russians, dumping fuel on our drone.

• 1:27:45Joe Rogan?

  When was this?

• 1:27:46Speaker 02

  Just recently. I mean, must have been within the last year or so. So like, they're not, we do see, they do release, you know, warfare, various, various times they do release things and you can kind of go, "Okay, that means that we have..." I don't think, what I'm saying is, the main excuse has been not to reveal our methods for getting, you know, we're just talking about UAP here, getting, you know, photographs and video. We know that a huge amount of it exists. They haven't even released the full, you know, Gimbal and Go Fast videos. There's a whole bunch more video left.

• 1:28:20Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:28:20Speaker 02

  So just, yeah.

• 1:28:21Joe Rogan?

  So that, the video that came out, those were whistleblower leaks, right?

• 1:28:25Speaker 02

  Eventually, they released them formally, though. The Pentagon did. So there's much more of that, so...

• 1:28:30Joe Rogan?

  And the, particularly, sorry to interrupt you, but was it the Gimbal or the Go Fast where there was many more crafts?

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  I believe that there was, so there's three videos, right? It's Gimbal, Go Fast, and then, what was the one where, the Tic Tac video moves out of the frame?

• 1:28:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:47Speaker 02

  My understanding is that there's significantly more video for all of those. And then, I also, my understanding is also, there's just a lot of other videos, particularly from those two incidents certainly have, there's so much more censor data from, because we know those incidents had a lot more going on, right?

• 1:29:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  And just was filmed by those videos. So I think that now, there is, I was gonna say the UAP community, there isn't really an organized one, although Jesse's doing an amazing job of organizing it. We should be really specific and say, you know, here's what we want. I did a piece with John Greenwald. Representative Nancy Mace wrote an open letter to the intelligence and military community saying, here's a set of documents that we want to release. So I think the good news is, we're like, look, the president has said he wants this. We've identified a bunch of documents, identified a bunch of videos and film. Yeah, I mean, are they gonna withhold stuff? Are they gonna mislead? Probably, but that's been the story for 80 years.

• 1:29:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you saw the age of disclosure, right?

• 1:29:43Speaker 02

  Yes, of course.

• 1:29:43Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so I think they make a really good point in age of disclosure that if they did release things, the real problem is misappropriation of funds lying to Congress. And the fact that some of these, you would assume that the way these things are being handled, if they do have crafts, if they are, if there is some sort of a back engineering program, that back engineering program is going to be held by a military contractor. So, so whatever the contractor is, whether it's, you know, Rocketdyne, or whoever has it, right? You would imagine that the other competing groups would be very pissed off that they didn't have access to this thing, and they could sue. The misappropriation

• 1:30:28Joe Rogan?

  of funds, lying to Congress, people could go to jail. Also, most likely fraud. There's gotta be tons of fraud. If there's so much money that's being, like, shuffled away into these black ops projects, if there's no oversight, then who knows where the money's going, right?

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:30:46Joe Rogan?

  And so there's a problem there. If you open up the books and people go, why was there a hundred million dollar check written here? Where's the 2.3 billion that's missing here? And, you know.

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  I'm, yeah, I have doubts now. I mean, I have to say, I didn't finish watching it, but you know, Jesse just dropped a video with him and Eric Weinstein and Eric Davis.

• 1:31:04Joe Rogan?

  Who's him?

• 1:31:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:06Joe Rogan?

  Eric Davis.

• 1:31:07Speaker 02

  Jesse, yeah, so Jesse, Eric.

• 1:31:08Joe Rogan?

  I haven't seen that yet.

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I found it really, it really made me question whether there's... Any there there?

• 1:31:16Joe Rogan?

  What does Eric Davis do?

• 1:31:17Speaker 02

  Eric Davis, you know who he is? He's got the bushy beard and he's in Age of Disclosure and is part of the whole, you know, Bigelow. You know, that whole OSAP, ATIP. He was a, I don't know his exact, he was a, he's a scientist.

• 1:31:32Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  But he was sort of talking about like, because I think Eric Weinstein was asking these really hard questions like, okay, well, like, how many people are in this, you know, reverse engineering program and what is it? And I just found his answers to be very thin. So I'm.

• 1:31:46Joe Rogan?

  I haven't seen it yet, so I can't comment on that, but.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  I know, I know.

• 1:31:50Joe Rogan?

  Both skeptical and open minded at the same time.

• 1:31:54Speaker 02

  There is a, like, yeah, I just, I definitely think there's a lot more than they've revealed. I think my skepticism on the reverse engineering stuff, I mean, obviously there's crash retrieval because they're just retrieving, it could be foreign or they're retrieving something. The reverse engineering, I mean, if it's advanced tech, nuclear just took so, I mean, I'm just familiar with the history of nuclear, just so much effort to create nuclear energy and you'd have these huge, there's a huge enterprise, thousands of people. If they're not, I mean, that's why I kind of go, and I mean, a whole other form of propulsion, I mean, it's just really, it would require so many, so, such a big bureaucracy.

• 1:32:33Speaker 02

  That's where I'm a little skeptical that that exists because I don't know how you maintain a cover up that long, but I could be wrong. I mean, as, you know, as people have pointed out, they've maintained secrecy of a lot of things for a really long time, so it's not inconceivable, but.

• 1:32:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, especially when you're dealing with government contractors and military contractors, then they've done, I mean, they, they have a long history of keeping a tight lip when it comes to all sorts of top secret projects that they're working on.

• 1:33:01Speaker 02

  I mean, it's weird because like, if you look at the UAP Task Force, which was created by people that had, you know, it was like, comes out of, they have OSAP and then ATIP and then UAP Task Force, and then they create ERA, which is much more like what Blue Book was, which is, their whole point is to debunk and dismiss, I think. That's the whole point. It's, it's to, just to say, we looked into it and there's nothing there. So then they, and they cherry pick the. Like, they don't actually deal with the stuff that they can't explain. That's what Arrow's point is. But the UAP Task Force was people that seemed genuinely interested in it. And they have potential explanations in three separate things. That means that they didn't know themselves. And so, I would think that if you, if there was some reverse engineering program, then you would have a better idea than just three potential explanations.

• 1:33:45Joe Rogan?

  But that's assuming they actually got access.

• 1:33:48Speaker 02

  The UAP Task Force people?

• 1:33:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, at some point-

• 1:33:52Joe Rogan?

  If they open themselves up for, if they do have access, then you open up those questions. Misappropriation of funds, lying to Congress, military contractors having access to these vehicles. I would imagine that's too messy.

• 1:34:04Speaker 02

  They get very mumbly. They get very mumbly at that point. I find, when you start kind of like, "Well, what is it? And how many people kind of..." It's a lot of like, "Uh, you know." I mean, that's how, that was my interpretation of this. I think that it's, I'm much more with Jacques Vallée's view of the phenomenon. And I think that it, that they don't know what it is. I think they have a lot more photos and videos showing, demonstrating this incredible phenomenon, but I'm not sure that they know what it is. And I'm pretty skeptical that they have a secret reverse engineering program just because I don't, I don't see how they, how they would have carried it out for this long. Because Jesse's theory, of course, is that it would date back to the 70s, to the 50s.

• 1:34:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:45Speaker 02

  And it just, there's just too many possibilities for too many deathbed confessions from people to reveal this knowledge, so...

• 1:34:53Joe Rogan?

  But don't you think you would keep a really close watch on anyone who had any access to any of these things? And that would be very threatening to them, like Bob Lazar.

• 1:35:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know. You believe Bob Lazar.

• 1:35:07Joe Rogan?

  I do.

• 1:35:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:09Joe Rogan?

  I don't know what he was working on, whether or not it was hours or something else, or what. But I don't think he's a liar. He's had the same story forever.

• 1:35:17Speaker 02

  Well, then, we should go demand the documents. I mean, that would be something where- We just need to be like, "Look, these are the documents that we want, and it's on this place, these years."

• 1:35:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, one of the things that Bob said is he thinks some of the documents that he was shown were horseshit, and he thinks it's on purpose. He thinks that those fake documents, that the fake narratives are a hook, so that if somebody does spill the beans, they know exactly who would, who was doing it, because they could point to, like, maybe if you're involved in, you know, X program, they give you some bullshit narrative on top of the real truth, right? They'll make up some stuff.

• 1:35:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:35:56Joe Rogan?

  That way, if you really, "Well, the government told me X," and you go, "Oh, okay, he learned it from this, he's a part of this program, now we've narrowed it down to 250 employees, let's start scouring these people and bring them in for questions." This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight, and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn't need to change: your phone. The smartest upgrade this season isn't a new phone, it's a better wireless plan. Switch to Visible, the ultimate wireless hack. You get unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 a month. That means keeping the phone you already have, ditching

• 1:36:41Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:25Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:31Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, counterintelligence. Yeah, I mean, it seems like the, so you know the MJ12 documents?

• 1:38:11Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  There's one of them that is this incredible document. I mean, just if it's a forgery, and most people I think think it's a forgery or it's a hoax or whatever. It's so well-done. It's the manual on extraterrestrial crash retrieval with different morphologies. Have you ever seen this?

• 1:38:25Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:38:25Speaker 02

  Have you ever seen it? It's amazing document. Like, I spent, went down like a long rabbit hole. Look, I would say most ufologists think it's fake, so it's not even me. I, what's incredible about they show like, you know, like the old books of it from the library, they'd show who checked it out, they had all these names. It's an, so then you kind of go like, the only people really, I mean, it seemed like the level of sophistication to create this would have been the government. And so then you're sort of like, well, why would they have done that? One of the answers is it was just, this is called passage material to be able to detect counterintelligence activities. Now, I'll tell you another one that I can't quite figure out. I mean, it's a lot of effort to, and why that narrative? I mean, another thing I was, people say is they'll go, well, they're using the UAP stuff as cover for secret weapons programs.

• 1:39:11Speaker 02

  And you're like, well, why would that work as cover? And they go, well, because then, then it's a way to distract attention. I was like, but why would that distract attention? Wouldn't that attract attention? You go, don't, if you, as opposed to like, within the military, like, look, we don't, this is, this is secret research, you know, that's really important to national security. We don't have to pay attention. Instead, they're like, oh, no, this is UFO crash retrieval, so don't pay attention to it? That seems like you're a recipe for creating more interest in UFOs.

• 1:39:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  So there's a lot of things that the government has done where you're like, it's almost like, assuming that is, by the way, that, we know that like, we know that the government, the US Air Force, did, you know, in the early 80s, make this guy Paul Benowitz go crazy, who was seeing things over Kirtland Air Base, and then this guy Richard Doty. You know.

• 1:39:55Joe Rogan?

  How'd they make him go crazy?

• 1:39:56Speaker 02

  They would be feeding him all this information, convincing him of an alien attack. And he basically ended up going crazy from it. It's this amazing story told by this, by this book Mirage Men, also documentary. And you look at it, you kind of go, and they go, well, it was to cover up a secret weapons program at Kirtland Air Base. And it's like, it's like, I'm not, I'm not even disbelieving it, but it's like, that's just such a, like, why would that be the best way to do that? And why would you be so sure that that wouldn't attract interest from people rather than distract it? So there's a bunch of things that don't make sense. And so even if it is all, you know, which is the skeptic view, you know, is that it's some combination of government disinformation, sci-fi,

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  you know, dreams, hypnosis, hypnagogic states, and then, and then kind of the power of belief. You know, I just reviewed this new book on Barney and Betty Hill, where the author thinks that it was, that, that really was a combination of her, it was the stress of being an interracial couple, her nightmares, and then hypnosis, where they then confabulate this whole story. That's the basic skeptic view, is that it was sort of, but, but the government's involved in it. And that's always strange, because you're like, why would the government be participating?

• 1:41:10Joe Rogan?

  In the Betty and Barney Hill story?

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  No, no, in the, in the UFO, in creating, in these UFO, assuming that they did the MJ-12, or somebody did the MJ-12, but certainly in the case of.

• 1:41:19Joe Rogan?

  Right, why would they have any organizations? Why would they have anything, right? Why would they have?

• 1:41:24Speaker 02

  Why would you be, why would you be doing, like, the thing with, like, the Paul Doty and the Paul Benowitz, or the Richard Doty and Paul Benowitz, is like, why, why was that the best, I mean, it's just, why was that the best way? Like, somebody has observed strange activity over Kirtland Air Base, and they discover this. Why was that the right approach? I don't, I don't follow it. And you had A.J. Gentile on, who did the stuff on crop circles. We saw, they saw military disinformation around those activities in Britain. So you see a lot of.

• 1:41:55Joe Rogan?

  The crop circle thing's weird.

• 1:41:57Speaker 02

  Really weird.

• 1:41:57Joe Rogan?

  Because you want to just write it off. I mean, I wanted to write it off. I'm like, oh, there's guys with boards. They're making designs. But then you see some of the designs and how the wheat is actually woven and how they have these exploded nodes, almost like they're microwaved. And they've examined these things and it seems like there's some energy that's created these things. And also the sheer size and scale of some of these things with no footprints leading into them or out of them. And just the geometric precision of some of them, it's really weird. Like, there's, of course, it's eyewitness accounts. It's hard to know if they're being accurate, but people who've flown over areas where there's

• 1:42:39Joe Rogan?

  nothing there, flown back two hours later, and there's these football field-sized Mandelbrot sets.

• 1:42:46Speaker 02

  Those, the Julia set over next to Stonehenge was the one that the guy flew over and there was nothing there. And like a couple of hours later, there was the Julia set, which is a spectacular.

• 1:42:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's incredible.

• 1:42:57Speaker 02

  Fractal.

• 1:42:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:42:59Speaker 02

  I'll tell you, it's even weirder.

• 1:43:00Joe Rogan?

  With incredible precision. That's what's really, as much precision as you can get by folding over wheat. But when you look at it like from above and, you know, you don't get to the micro, you're looking at these things that, like, they really do scale in a fractal way. It's very fucking strange and difficult to reproduce. You would imagine something like that would take a long fucking time to plot out and plan. It would take multiple people. You'd have to measure and re-measure. You'd have to have some, some sort of tools and instruments, not just to fold over the wheat, but if you're going to interweave the wheat, like, what is your method of doing that? And how are you doing it where, you know, this one is one dimension and then the next

• 1:43:44Joe Rogan?

  one is precisely three fifths of that dimension, next one is slightly, and they're fractal?

• 1:43:50Speaker 02

  Well, it gets really even weirder than that. So you know how I just described this case of this Air Force counterintelligence guy driving this guy, Paul Benowitz, crazy at Curling Affairs? That book is written by Mark Pilkington. Mark Pilkington is one of two guys that claim to have created all the crop circles. The other guy's a guy named John Lundberg.

• 1:44:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh, right, right, right.

• 1:44:10Speaker 02

  AJ, in his video about... The Crop Circles accuses John Lundberg, again, they call it the Circle Makers, they have a website that keep it updated. He accuses him of being a British intelligence agent, AJ does, or at least he strongly implies it. And, and part of that is because there was a bunch of weird stuff on the website about MI5 and the CIA. And then Lundberg went to a school, this is all very circumstantial, so I'm not defending it, I'm just saying what AJ said. And then Lundberg went to a school that shares a courtyard with, with an MI5 campus or an MI5 training area. I asked Mark, I have like a three, I have like three hours of interviews with Mark, who I'm really interested, is a really interesting person.

• 1:44:51Speaker 02

  I asked him directly if they had any connection to military intelligence, he said absolutely not. It's hard to-

• 1:44:58Joe Rogan?

  Which is what you would say.

• 1:44:59Speaker 02

  Well, of course you're allowed to say it if you are, but I'm not making any accusations, but, yeah, I mean, he claimed that they made all of them, and, you know, there's some of them, have you ever seen the massive, there was one that was absolutely massive?

• 1:45:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, pull some of them up, Jamie, so we can get some-

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  There's the Julius said, there's another, there's another one that's so big, it's really hard to see, but he said that he wasn't at that one.

• 1:45:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:19Speaker 02

  That's the famous, that's the Julius, that's gorgeous, well, the big one right there is in the middle, that one's just crazy.

• 1:45:24Joe Rogan?

  I mean, these are enormous.

• 1:45:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're enormous.

• 1:45:27Joe Rogan?

  Go full screen on that, it's, they're so big. And, I mean, the amount of precision involved in them is kind of spectacular.

• 1:45:38Speaker 02

  Now, Mark denies that they have exploded nodes, and he denies that they're interwoven. AJ says that they are definitely interwoven and have exploded nodes, and there was even an article in Science Magazine, which, you know, argues that they were made by humans, but that they, they point out the, the exploded nodes. So, yeah, maybe that's it.

• 1:45:57Joe Rogan?

  What's weird too is there's like, how did you do this? Where, how, what's the, where's the evidence of people trampling through this with equipment?

• 1:46:08Joe Rogan?

  No, it's all missing, like, it's strange. And then also, no one's caught doing them.

• 1:46:14Speaker 02

  How about the pie, oh, here's the other one, I asked Mark about this and he didn't know about it, but, do you know the pie one?

• 1:46:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  That was apparently, I'm pretty sure it's the first time that it was a visual explanation of pie. That's my understanding of it, now maybe, maybe there's someone, I haven't seen anything earlier than that, but that's like, on its own is really amazing, that that was the first time that they had created a visual representation of, of pie.

• 1:46:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:37Speaker 02

  Um, and complete with like the, yeah, that's it, it's like, um, there's a, there's another uh, image that will show how it is pie, probably that one right there, yeah. Um, and so that's a extremely sophisticated.

• 1:46:51Joe Rogan?

  Extremely.

• 1:46:52Speaker 02

  Crop circle.

• 1:46:53Joe Rogan?

  Right, um, I mean, ima- imagine the type of intelligence that you'd have to possess to pull this off, and then not let anybody know that you did it, and it's just for funsies. Just for funsies in the field.

• 1:47:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's um, and then you know these MIT researchers went out, that's also part of it, and they tried to do it, and it just wasn't, it wasn't nearly as good.

• 1:47:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what is this article saying? Okay.

• 1:47:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:19Joe Rogan?

  It is very fucking weird.

• 1:47:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:21Joe Rogan?

  It's very weird and it, but the whole UFO thing is very weird. It,

• 1:47:28Joe Rogan?

  you know, the Jacques Vallée books are very interesting, and I've read three of his books so far. And um, I, I've had him on a couple of times, and the last time I had him on, I, I really went on a deep dive, and I read two of his books right before he came on. And one of the more interesting things is the really old stories. Like the stories from the seventeen hundreds, the eighteen hundreds, where they lack the context of spaceships, the idea behind it, like, none of that stuff exists. But yet you get almost, at least you, you could say, oh, I could understand how they would be describing it this way, but it's kind of the same thing that other people have been describing. The Zimbabwe story, a lot of these other stories,

• 1:48:11Joe Rogan?

  it's kind of the same story, over and over and over again, which makes you go, okay, well, what? Does it have to be from outer space? Or is it possible that there is something here? That is like far older than us? That has somehow or another removed itself from our view?

• 1:48:32Speaker 02

  Or is it social contagion? And people, I mean, I've always struck by, it's always like the aliens always are like, oh, protect your environment and avoid nuclear war. It's like, oh, thanks, like, we didn't know, we needed to do those until you guys showed up. And it makes more sense as like, you could see it as a, I mean, I got very into, I haven't interviewed her yet, but I'm about to, there's an anthropologist at Stanford named Tanya Lerman. And she's done this incredible work on religions where she, like anthropo, a good anthropologist, and also this guy, Bowman, like, they, they're agnostic on whether or not, like, those beings are real. Like, they're just like, we're really interested in like, the culture and the psychology and the experience of it. But she had this, she, she was like, did her fieldwork with magicians and witches in England?

• 1:49:17Speaker 02

  You know, like, you know, like, modern witches and, not magicians, like, magic tricks, but like, the old, uh, uh, who's the famous magician? Uh, not Gandalf.

• 1:49:26Joe Rogan?

  Houdini?

• 1:49:27Speaker 02

  No, no, the British one, Merlin, right?

• 1:49:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:49:30Speaker 02

  Um, but like, old style, right? Like, but they were like, so she didn't really believe in it, but she would, they were like, you have to practice witchcraft in order to do this. And she had like, multiple anomalous experiences. One of them that she woke up and there was five Druids in her room beckoning to her. And people were like, is it a dream? And she's like, no, I'm not, it's not a dream. She had another instance where they were trying to like, conjure energies to like, turn off, to like, uh, turn, shut down her watch. And she felt a huge energy surge through her and shut off her watch. And her point is that she thinks that the practice, she's, she, we put too much focus on the beliefs, but she says like, the practices themselves, I don't know if she would say conjure, I also interviewed Diana Pasulka on it, they would say more like, reveal these different realities.

• 1:50:14Speaker 02

  So, they're much more, it's a very interesting set of work because they're not, they're not trying to answer the question of whether the Druids were really in her room or not. Um, I mean, the watch thing, you know, apparently definitely happened, but.

• 1:50:28Joe Rogan?

  Apparently definitely is a weird way to phrase.

• 1:50:31Speaker 02

  Apparently, to her, definitely.

• 1:50:34Joe Rogan?

  I know, you know what I'm saying? It's like, show me, man. The conjuring thing is strange, because that's a reoccurring theme, that you go outside and you have, like, these experiences where you say, "I'm not afraid, come show yourself to me," and given enough time, with enough intention, apparently, things will appear in the sky.

• 1:50:56Speaker 02

  My favorite one is the black guy talking about Yahweh, who, where the local ABC newscaster goes out, and it's gonna be one of those, "Ha ha, this guy thinks that he can conjure UFOs," and they go out with him, and he conjures an orb. Did you ever see that one?

• 1:51:09Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:51:10Speaker 02

  That's like, an incredible, that's like, one of my favorite

• 1:51:12Joe Rogan?

  Where's that?

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  ...of those videos, and the newscaster's like, uh, he called, literally, they see him calling his, I think it's like, an NBC affiliate, or an ABC affiliate somewhere, Jamie can probably find it, um, but if it's, uh, he literally calls his boss, the newscaster's like, "Oh, the story's turned out a little differently than I thought." It's like, one of my favorites, I'm sure you could say, "Oh, it's a balloon," or whatever, but like, comes in and out, I mean, it's really, and it comes right as he's calling it.

• 1:51:36Joe Rogan?

  That's the weird thing, is I've talked to multiple people that have actually done this.

• 1:51:41Speaker 02

  Oh, people, it's

• 1:51:42Joe Rogan?

  That have gone out with these, you know, air quotes, "experts," and they go out to some deserted area, and you call these things.

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  There's a second guy, white guy, that also does it, and Reuters did a whole story on him, because apparently, there's a whole bunch of people around that they saw it, and of course, Jake Barber, who's this former, you know, contractor, helicopter pilot contractor for special forces, announced that he was gonna go and conjure UFOs and bring one down. They're here, they're just sitting right up there.

• 1:52:14Speaker 06

  We met up with prophet Yahweh, seer of Yahweh, at Doolittle Park off Lake Mead. We picked the day, we picked the time, and we picked the location. Everyone's gonna think you're absolutely nuts. Well, I thought I was absolutely nuts. Until, he says, he saw UFOs. Over the years, 1,500 of them. Can we make it, uh, 1,501 today? What do you think? I'll try it. He says the voice in his head told him to go public now, so, we took him up on his offer, and we scanned the skies, nothing but a few clouds. When the prophet started praying for a sighting, I wasn't exactly convinced.

• 1:52:49Speaker 02

  I pray, oh, Yahweh, that you send a sighting, so that they know that I am not

• 1:52:54Joe Rogan?

  mentally ill. I am not a false prophet. Like those who seek to kill me say I am. Oh, people wish I'd kill him? Oh, brother, look at it. There it is.

• 1:53:04Speaker 06

  You can barely see it, a white speck. Then, another sighting. There it is. I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. Photojournalist Jonathan Hawkins locks in on it. Let's take a closer look here. It's an orange sphere that appeared out of nowhere. I call the boss with an unexpected change in my story. I can see it clear as day. In fact, it's bright. I can't believe this. It's moving pretty fast.

• 1:53:27Joe Rogan?

  It's going to Nellis Air Force Base. It wants to be seen.

• 1:53:31Speaker 06

  We called Nellis to see what these things might be. Guess what? They didn't call us back. But this thing started coming back toward us. Coming toward us now, I think?

• 1:53:40Joe Rogan?

  What? See, it's coming toward us.

• 1:53:44Joe Rogan?

  Whoa, man! Oh, hallelujah!

• 1:53:48Speaker 06

  Then, a few seconds later, it disappeared.

• 1:53:51Joe Rogan?

  It's going back up in space.

• 1:53:53Speaker 06

  Prophet Yahweh isn't concerned. He says it'll be back.

• 1:53:58Joe Rogan?

  I would take this more seriously if that guy didn't have your reporter voice.

• 1:54:01Speaker 02

  It's amazing. That's part of the charm of it. I think it's, um, I love it because I don't, I don't think you can, I don't think it's going to convince any skeptics. But it's like one of the few things in our, in our world where it inspires a set of like wonder and a set of awe. And, you know, for those of us that struggle with our faiths, um, it's inspiring because it is sort of a spiritual, like, I mean, he, he calls himself Yahweh, right? So there's like, there's didn't, wasn't about like gray aliens or whatever. It was just something else. And that's what I mean about like why more valet, his work explains all of this much better, um, and then the sort of the extraterrestrial hypothesis did. And he's had that since 68.

• 1:54:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think what he does best is not explain it.

• 1:54:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:45Joe Rogan?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:54:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:46Joe Rogan?

  There really isn't an explanation, but here's what we know.

• 1:54:49Speaker 02

  He calls it a control system, though.

• 1:54:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:51Speaker 02

  Which is sort of like, I asked Diana, I was like, is that, how is that different from God? Because he's of a control system that is, his view is that there's a control system that's evolving human consciousness and it will manifest different things or in that, in relation with humans over time. And so he looks at the, you know, the apparition, the Maria or Saint Mary apparitions in Spain and the airships of the late 19th century, where people saw these things that looked like zeppelins, even though they hadn't been invented yet. All of these things, he says, his view is they're sort of being, sort of produced in some relationship as well with our culture. That's Vallée's argument. And that sounds a lot like God in some ways when you say control system.

• 1:55:34Joe Rogan?

  Right. What does that mean? Like, is it a higher life form that is monitoring us? Like, that's the secular version of religion for a lot of these people that are really interested in aliens, like that there's some advanced being that's making sure we don't fuck everything up completely.

• 1:55:51Speaker 02

  Certainly for me, that's my interest. I mean, I, like, again, this anthropologist, Lerman, you know, she says, you know, William James is this famous Harvard psychologist who wrote a book about the varieties of the religious experience in 1902. And he says, everybody wants to kind of be like, is it real or not real? Is like, this world just what we see? And he says, I think there's something more. There's not, so this, this very, you know, skeptic or debunker thing, which is like, oh, no, it's just gotta be a, that thing's gotta be a bird, or it's a, it's like, well, but it really, you haven't, just calling it that. And as they point out, it's like, they showed up when they wanted to. I mean, it's a pretty amazing, if it's just a coincidence, it's a really amazing one. And so I think, for me, it's like, because I am a Christian, and it is hard to believe

• 1:56:36Speaker 02

  in, in an all-powerful and all-good God, because he obviously allowed the Holocaust to occur and allows terrible things to occur. But I love that, that segment, and there's, I love, there's another one I love right now. It's like a British woman in the 50s doing an interview about seeing what she calls a Mexican hat UFO over her house. And the kids saw it, and she, and everybody in the village made fun of her, and they ridiculed her. And she's like, but it's, you know, but it's, I saw it, and it was real. And it was like, it's like, those are like, are, those are spiritual experiences, I think. So I don't know that, like, I want the files released from the government. I'm also skeptical that it's going to tell us what it is, because I think- At some level, we're not supposed to get more, much more information about what it is. I think it's something else is going on.

• 1:57:21Speaker 02

  Or maybe it's having a positive effect. I think it's, I think one of the, sometimes people get really mad at UFO believers, like skeptics get really like angry, like how do they, they're so, you know, whatever, they get so mad. And I'm always like, but like, how often do you see them causing real harm or problems? I mean, we had one cult where they, you know, like a few people killed themselves. But for the most part-

• 1:57:41Joe Rogan?

  They cut their balls off first.

• 1:57:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, great. So, you know, UFO, like for the most part UFO, people that are interested in UFOs are dreamy seekers, spiritual, and I think it's, I think it's wrong to, I think it's lovely and wonderful and it reminds us of, you know, that we're small, on the one hand, we're humble about our knowledge and there's just surrounded by mystery. I mean, you're, so much of your career and this, this platform has been to allow us to talk about things that are unexplained and that, or where the explanations don't really seem to explain it. There's something more, as William James would say, there's something more. And I think that the denial of anything more, this idea that, oh, we know everything and we know where the, we don't know anything.

• 1:58:23Joe Rogan?

  That's hubris.

• 1:58:24Speaker 02

  It's just crazy.

• 1:58:24Joe Rogan?

  But that, those people are silly. They're more silly than the believers. Because this, this idea that like, look, if there is a, if you have a completely novel experience, like say if you are Commander David Fravor and you encounter this Tic Tac shaped object that's hovering over something that appears to be a ship that's under the water, this thing takes off at a absolutely preposterous speed that is documented both in radar and visually and on camera, right? So they've got video of this thing moving. They say that it went from above 50,000 feet above sea level to sea level in less than

• 1:59:04Joe Rogan?

  a second, which would require more energy than the entire United States produces in a year in order to get an object to move that quickly. And it does that with no heat signature. Okay, if this is all true, just that alone, now imagine you have this completely novel experience. And because I haven't had it and you haven't had it and Jamie hasn't had it, well, it's very simple and easy to dismiss it. But if this happened, what do you, what, what do you expect the person to do? What do you expect a decorated pilot in, in the Navy? A guy who has a rock solid record, who is, there's nothing about him that screams that

• 1:59:49Joe Rogan?

  he's a kook or he's mentally ill. And when you talk to him, he's incredibly meticulous, very intelligent, very disciplined.

• 1:59:56Speaker 02

  His, his face, it, it looks like he had a spiritual experience. He's got a smile on his face. I went to the, when I was in Delhi, I went to the Jain temple and I went to the Hindu temple and I'm not Jain, I'm not Hindu. But I had a look on my face that reminded me, that sort of, that sort of, that sort of like that starry eyed, the look in your face where you've experienced the wonder and the awe of being alive and we're on this planet and we don't really understand it all, but it's beautiful and it's okay. And I think that that's the spiritual, I mean, that's where it's like he's been touched by, I don't, you know, I'm not imposing this, but he's sort of touched by God in some way or been touched by something and it's, and it's not.

• 2:00:37Joe Rogan?

  Something extraordinary.

• 2:00:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the thing, look, I think the other thing, you read that environment, you're like, that thing showed dominance in that environment. So on the one hand, it showed itself to be.

• 2:00:46Joe Rogan?

  Technological dominance.

• 2:00:47Speaker 02

  You call it technological, Vale might call it spiritual dominance, you know? So, but that's for me what's, what's special about it. And I think it's not going to go away and I don't think we're going to get to the answer. I don't think, I don't think the government, how could the government, you know, I don't think they know and, and even if they, even if there was some contact, I don't know if that would really tell you all the answers.

• 2:01:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, what I could imagine is that they have acquired both eyewitness, video, radar, all, all the various sensors, data. And they've done this with multiple instances of these things and they are trying to assess what this is. And they have a longstanding study of these things that.

• 2:01:35Joe Rogan?

  Would both be disturbing and confusing to a lot of people and disruptive to society. And I'm sure you're well aware of how put off and what happened with him during the Bush administration, where they brought him in and they essentially told how put off. Now, this is assuming how's telling the truth and I have no reason to think he's lying. They brought him in and a bunch of other scientists and a bunch of other thinkers and said, "I want you to create a chart on one side, list the positive aspects of disclosure. On the other side, what are the negative ramifications of disclosure? Government, religion, the finances, all the different things that could happen in the world."

• 2:02:17Joe Rogan?

  And the negatives outweighed the positives and they decided not to disclose. But the premise that he was brought in with this was saying, "We have acquired physical crafts that are not of this world. We have biological entities that are not of this world. And we are a part of some sort of a back engineering program. We want to release this information. What would happen if we did?" And their conclusion was chaos.

• 2:02:44Speaker 02

  Trump didn't seem to go through that checklist and come up with the same answer.

• 2:02:47Joe Rogan?

  I don't think he got that memo. But also, I do think-

• 2:02:51Speaker 02

  I think he ignores the memos from experts in general.

• 2:02:54Joe Rogan?

  Right. If he was in office and that was the case and they came to him and, you know, and someone like Tucker or someone that's influential to him could sit down with him and talk to him and he thought it would gain their favor, he might just release it.

• 2:03:05Speaker 02

  I mean, it's wild because on the one hand, it looked like it was spontaneous. But on the other hand, you know Laura Trump, who's like someone that's like a trusted family member, who's like really competent, like they sent her in to like take over the RNC and fix it and fire all the people and get their loyalists in there. She was out there talking, saying that, you know, "Oh, Trump is..." I was hearing a lot of noise, but it wasn't from people that I trusted, so I didn't report anything on it. But I was hearing a lot of noise too, that Trump administration was considering doing something, but you didn't know, I didn't know if it was circular reporting. But I thought the Laura Trump thing was interesting because I don't think, I don't see her as sort of a... She's not just speculating or bullshitting, you know, she's a trusted, you know, kind of-

• 2:03:44Speaker 02

  Trusted source for that. So she said that and then Obama was asked about it and then Trump made that announcement. So I don't know what they have planned. You know, we were pushing on the intelligence community privately to release the stuff and it was going nowhere.

• 2:03:55Joe Rogan?

  The Obama thing was nuts because the guy didn't have any follow up questions.

• 2:03:58Speaker 02

  That was, that was part of what was really weird about it. Also, they put it in a speed round. Like, it's like, why would you put it in a speed round?

• 2:04:05Joe Rogan?

  Which is probably why he didn't have follow up questions if you think about it that way. But, I mean, that's a, just a massive dropping of the ball. The guy says aliens are real. How do you know? How do you know is the next question, right? It's right there. How do you know aliens are real?

• 2:04:18Speaker 02

  Well, yesterday, the day after then, he said, oh, I just meant theoretically and there's life in the universe and stuff.

• 2:04:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, why don't you ask that? So you catch him on the spot instead of when it becomes this big viral moment and then everybody's talking about it and then he comes up with a rational explanation for why he said that.

• 2:04:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, and, and, and he told, Obama told one of the late night hosts, I can't remember if it was Kimmel or Colbert or somebody, but he said, they said something like, tell us what you know. And he said, I, you know, I can't tell you. There's things I can't tell you. So, I mean, he obviously knows more than he said.

• 2:04:47Joe Rogan?

  Right. Otherwise, he would say there's nothing.

• 2:04:48Speaker 02

  And then Trump said that he knows more. It was very interesting, you know?

• 2:04:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I talked to Trump about it. He won't tell you shit. He goes, there's a lot of things. I know some things. There's a lot of, it's very crazy.

• 2:05:01Speaker 02

  But, you know, they said they weren't going to release the Epstein files and that came out. So I just kind of go, no, I have a different, I don't know if you want to get into it, but I have a slightly different view of Epstein than, than I think I did.

• 2:05:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, before we get into that, you know Tucker's thoughts on this whole UFO, UAP thing? He thinks they're like angels and demons from the Bible. And he thinks that they're, they've always been here. And, you know, I'm, I'm sure you're aware of like the Book of Enoch. The Book of Enoch, which was one of the original biblical texts that wasn't included in the canon, but just because of a few rabbis decided it didn't jive with the Torah. And they found the Book of Enoch along with the Book of Isaiah as a part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. And, uh, When, when you find out that there was a biblical text that, that was contemporary to books that did make it into the Old Testament.

• 2:05:55Joe Rogan?

  And that they talk about the watchers who come from above and, and mate with humans and create this race of giant, giants called the Nephilim who destroy everything and consume everything and you're like, what the fuck is this? Like, what is this? And, and just stop and imagine if those rabbis hadn't just like, if that hadn't been excluded. Like Wesley Huff is great talking about this stuff. He's a real historian when it comes to, you know, really understanding the, the history of these biblical texts and, you know, and he's absolutely fascinated by it. And he's like, yeah, it is kind of crazy that they just decided to not put that in the Bible. Imagine if they did. And part of when you're going to church and they, you know, they're going over the Old

• 2:06:39Joe Rogan?

  Testament, like, okay, this week we're gonna go over the Book of Enoch and we're gonna figure out who the watchers are. Like, what do you, what is that? Like, what is that story? The crazy thing that Wes Huff told me was that the Book of Isaiah that they found in the Dead Sea Scroll predates the oldest version of the Book of Isaiah by more than a thousand years. When they found it, they found out that there was a Book of Isaiah that is a thousand years older than the one they thought was the oldest one, and it is verbatim. It's verbatim from the one that's a thousand years later. Which is kind of crazy. But then it's also in the same fucking caves as the Book of Enoch.

• 2:07:23Joe Rogan?

  It's all, it's all together there in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

• 2:07:26Speaker 02

  Amazing. I mean, we've had this, we've, we've been fed this story that sort of all of these religions and myths from the past are all just false. They're all just hallucinations. They're all just lies.

• 2:07:39Joe Rogan?

  I don't believe that.

• 2:07:40Speaker 02

  It's just really, uh, it's really arrogant, actually. Like, it's like, well, no, now, like, we've been around for, you know, humans have been around for like millions of years, but the last hundred and fifty years, it's like, we really figured it all out. And we figured out that all human knowledge before, you know, whatever, some recent time period is, is nonsense. Yeah, I think that's, um, quite arrogant.

• 2:07:58Joe Rogan?

  It's very arrogant, but I all, look, I'm a believer that history is far older than we think it is. I'm, and I think the more time goes on, the more that gets revealed. So. When you're talking about something that's four or 5,000 years old, I think really you're talking about a retelling of a far older story. And I think there's, it's very difficult when you're dealing with people that don't have an understanding of science. The written language is fairly new. It's an oral tradition for generations before it's ever written down. So my question with all this is always like, what were they trying to talk about? What were they trying to say? What was the original experience that someone documented in story?

• 2:08:43Joe Rogan?

  And then that story was relayed over and over and over again, generation after generation, until it's eventually written down and then they study it and take it literally. And then also translating it from Aramaic, which is the Dead Sea Scrolls, ancient Hebrew, all these different languages to Latin and Greek and eventually English. But what's the original story? Like, what are they trying to document? What is this important knowledge that they want to share? And how screwed up would that get over the generations and generations of talking about it? But what ultimate truth is in there? Like, I'm absolutely fascinated by the story of Jesus Christ.

• 2:09:25Joe Rogan?

  Because if you wanted to come up with a way that people would live that would absolutely be far more beneficial than just going on natural instincts and tribal behavior, you would follow Jesus's teachings. Like, I can't find a flaw in the way He tells you to live life. There's a lot of religions that involve, you know, torturing nonbelievers and raping infidels and being able to do terrible things to the people that don't believe your religion. There's none of that in Christianity. It's all forgiveness. It's all treating your brother and your neighbor as if they're you.

• 2:10:09Joe Rogan?

  Like, it's a beautiful way to live life.

• 2:10:12Speaker 02

  Are you Christian?

• 2:10:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, I go to church. And I have been for quite a while. I've been doing it for the last three or four years.

• 2:10:17Speaker 02

  But that's not really an answer to the question.

• 2:10:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, because I don't know. I, I, I think it's very interesting and I do believe that if you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, you will live a better life. I really do believe that. And one of the things I talk about is like, the people that I go to church with are the most fucking polite people I've ever met in my life. They're so kind and so nice and everybody lets you out of the parking lot. Everybody's like, "You go, you go." It's like the one, like it works. You know what I'm saying? Like, if people are trying to find an idea, does that mean I believe people came back from the dead? Does that mean I believe Moses part of the Red Sea? Eh, not really. No, it seems like that's most likely a story where people are telling it generation after generation after generation, but there's

• 2:11:03Joe Rogan?

  probably something happening. There's probably some truth to it. Then when you take into account some of the stories from the Old Testament, like the Book of Ezekiel, which I'm absolutely fascinated by. Book of Ezekiel and his account of the wheel within a wheel and the, the, the fire flashing forth continually and in the midst of the fire, as it were, gleaming metal. Like, what, what the hell is that? Like, what is that? Like, what are these stories? And in the midst of the, the, this gleaming metal, there's the, the likeness of four living creatures. Like, okay, they darted to and fro like the appearance of a flash of lightning. Okay, what is that? Like, what are they, what were they trying to say? And what was the original experience that people documented that was so important?

• 2:11:47Speaker 02

  And it might have been a lot more similar to these UFO experiences.

• 2:11:50Joe Rogan?

  That's the point. Yeah. And I think this is what, one of the things that Tucker goes back to.

• 2:11:54Speaker 02

  The, the Christian story is so beautiful and so important. You know Rene Girard's view of, of Christianity as really stopping the cycle of scapegoating. You know, scapegoating where, and I'm seeing it right now as part of the reason we've been pushing back against the moral panic on Epstein is that... You scapegoat the thing, you know, traditionally it literally was a goat, but you scapegoat the person or whatever.

• 2:12:17Joe Rogan?

  Wait a minute, originally it was a goat?

• 2:12:19Speaker 02

  It really was a goat, yeah, it was a goat, yeah.

• 2:12:21Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:12:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it would carry the sins of the community.

• 2:12:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you sacrificed the goat?

• 2:12:25Speaker 02

  And you would, I think you would send it away to die or something.

• 2:12:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:12:29Speaker 02

  But over time it became people.

• 2:12:30Joe Rogan?

  That's what a scapegoat was?

• 2:12:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:12:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:34Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 2:12:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:36Joe Rogan?

  Somebody's a goat.

• 2:12:37Speaker 02

  But generally this-

• 2:12:38Joe Rogan?

  Goats were the devil, goats are everything. Goats get a bad rap.

• 2:12:40Speaker 02

  Goats are in your lobby, aren't they? Or those, those are elk, no.

• 2:12:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh, those are elk.

• 2:12:44Speaker 02

  No, there's a big difference. Yeah, but I mean, so Christianity puts an end to that. It says, uh, stop scapegoating. I mean, they scapegoated Jesus, really. I mean, you kind of go, you scapegoat, the way, the purpose of the scapegoating was to, was for this, the community, to unite the community and, and scapegoat to, to put all of its sins on one thing and then kill it or get rid of it. And that was the way the community would restore unity. Christianity said, no, we're not going to do it that way. Uh, that, that's, that's immoral. And so, you know, he with the, you know, without sin should be the first to cast a stone. Jesus wasn't saying that prostitution was good or anything. He was saying that we should not be scapegoating, you know, you've got sins too, so don't scapegoat this person.

• 2:13:28Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:13:29Speaker 02

  That's a really radical moment in human history and it really is what allowed humans to spread. It creates a universal, I mean, Christianity is the first universal, it's really a universal religion. Maybe it's not the only, um, but it's a universal religion. It says everybody, you know, is a child of God and it's, and it's evangelical and it wants other people to become Christian. That's very, that's different from other, other religions where we're like, this is my God, I've got my own God here and we're the best and you suck and-

• 2:13:53Joe Rogan?

  And they make it very difficult to join.

• 2:13:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's not to say that Christians, you know, obviously there was, you know, fighting the Muslims and there's some interesting, uh, revisionism there, but it's a beautiful religion.

• 2:14:05Joe Rogan?

  There's terrible things that have been done under the guise of Christianity, but if you listen to the teachings of Jesus Christ, they're not following his teachings. So it's like, it's just human behavior that they have tagged on to Christianity. So when people say Christianity is responsible for horrible atrocities, I say, no, I say humans are. Because if you, if it was actually Christianity, you would be following the teachings of Christ and there would be none of those things.

• 2:14:31Speaker 02

  I mean, antisemitism is not Christian.

• 2:14:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:14:35Speaker 02

  So.

• 2:14:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:14:36Speaker 02

  True Christianity is not that, so I, I think it's lovely and I, I hope there's a revival of some of it. I'm not sure there is.

• 2:14:43Joe Rogan?

  I think there is more now than before. There's a lot of young people that are getting into, into Christianity.

• 2:14:49Speaker 02

  I think it's good to, I think it's also, I mean, it's interesting with the, we were talking about the UFO thing. It's an awareness that there's a higher power. So one can sort of say, look, the UFO thing, it's not the same as Christianity or whatever. But this awareness that like, we're not, like, there's something else going on. There's something more, there's something higher than us and that we should be humble in front of, in the face of this just gigantic mystery. I think that puts us in a better mentality.

• 2:15:12Joe Rogan?

  It certainly does. And if, if anything, if he's not the son of God, if this was an actual historical figure, what an insanely wise human being. Who didn't have these thoughts that are inherent to all of us of vengeance and lust and greed. He's, has none of these?

• 2:15:31Speaker 02

  So radical. Also, um, you've heard it said before that you should, you know, love your friends and, and hate your enemies. I say to you, you know, you should love your enemies. I mean, that's just.

• 2:15:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:41Speaker 02

  It's like the hardest, I'm not there. I think very few people are there, uh, but it's certainly the right aspiration, isn't it?

• 2:15:49Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Yeah, it's the right aspiration. And Tucker thinks that this whole UFO thing is somehow connected to the spiritual realm. And that we're.

• 2:16:00Speaker 02

  Well, cause we've, we've been told for so long that there is no spiritual realm. That spiritual realm is just a mental illness.

• 2:16:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:16:06Speaker 02

  You know, it's like, I love how he's like, the Yahweh thing, he's like.

• 2:16:08Joe Rogan?

  But the problem with the people that tell you that are all mentally ill. They're all very unhappy, like atheists, like secular, like hardcore atheists are some of the most unhappy, depressed people I know. I don't see like incredibly happy, unless they do a lot of mushrooms. And those people tend to not be atheists anymore. That's the one weird thing. People that have had like intense breakthrough psychedelic experiences. One of the first things they go, maybe, maybe there is a God. Like maybe, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Because if I just experienced that and that's a real thing that you could have while alive on earth, where you are confronted with divine wisdom. And love in some weird, strange form. You know, when there's a lot of people that believe that that's the source of a lot of religious experiences.

• 2:16:51Joe Rogan?

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• 2:19:00Joe Rogan?

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• 2:19:20Speaker 02

  Well, that's right. And so now that people are having spiritual experiences with UFOs, it's wonderful and they should talk about them and kindle them. I think the thing about psychedelics that's so interesting is that, my experience with them, was that you become, you don't become so attached to your ideas and your beliefs.

• 2:19:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:19:38Speaker 02

  And so, which is a big problem in our society is people that get too attached to their, their egos get attached to their beliefs as opposed to like, oh, I thought that. I mean, I've made, I've made my whole career out of being wrong about things and then correcting them. But I think it's hard because you do, it's really-

• 2:19:54Joe Rogan?

  It's great quality.

• 2:19:55Speaker 02

  It's, thank you. It's a very, but it's still, I hate it. I hate being wrong. It's totally natural to hate it. But I do think like having a practice that makes you go, you are not your beliefs. There's something that you have an existence separate from-

• 2:20:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:20:11Speaker 02

  The things that you wrote on your blog or you wrote on X and just don't be so attached to them.

• 2:20:15Joe Rogan?

  Right. Don't make them your identity.

• 2:20:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that it's, it's, it's actually, there's something really quite, there's an awful part of when you feel like you got something wrong, but then there's another part where you're like, oh, it feels good to get it right and you feel clean. And that's like, that's what, that's what we should be going for. But it does require, for me, being humble about my limitations before some higher power is really important place to begin. Cause if you think there's no higher power, or the, the other one is like souls. We don't talk about souls enough. A new friend of mine at the university was talking about how important it is to really, to care for your soul and to care about other people's souls. That's one of the things that Christianity is so good at, that you have something divine inside of you, connected to something divine outside of you and that your behaviors affect

• 2:21:00Speaker 02

  its treatment. And it, you know, when you tell people that you're just, you know, a meat suit and you're just worm food and your life doesn't matter and that it's all just, you know, random and pointless. That's a terrible story. It's, it makes people feel terrible.

• 2:21:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:18Speaker 02

  But when you kind of go, no, you, there was one of the most beautiful, the, I loved all the Charlie Kirk videos that went out after his death. Cause there were so many ones where he had these beautiful moments, but he's talking to these women that are doing the OnlyFans. Did you see that one?

• 2:21:28Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:21:29Speaker 02

  And they're describing, they're trying to shock him and saying just really kind of crude things about their sexuality and how like the sex they have. It doesn't matter to them. And, and he was like, I just don't believe that. I think you have a soul. I think God has a purpose for you. What a much lovelier way to engage somebody. And it wasn't a, you didn't feel like he was morally condemning them.

• 2:21:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:50Speaker 02

  He was actually saying, God loves you. And so for me, Christianity brings, if, that is the part of Christianity that I think is so special. But it is hard. I mean, one of the things that this anthropologist that I really into is talking about, she says it's, it's the more the God, the more different the God is from humans. The harder it is to believe in them. And so people like Christians in particular, she would talk about their, even evangelical ones are always complaining about not believing enough. And not having enough faith. Cause it is so hard, cause you have the Holocaust problem, the problem of evil. Why, if the God is all powerful and all good, is he allowing the Holocaust?

• 2:22:23Joe Rogan?

  Why do you allow Hiroshima?

• 2:22:24Speaker 02

  Why, you know, with these terrible things.

• 2:22:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:25Speaker 02

  Um, and part of the answer for Christians has been, well, because he wants us to exercise free will. And to, to be in touch with our better sides and, and to realize our potential as, as moral, uh, moral humans and moral souls. And, and that's a, that's a pretty good answer. Um, but it is, I, I found me, I was glad to hear that her say that people struggle with it because I certainly do as well.

• 2:22:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, I, I mean, I think everyone struggles with it. I'm just, I'm really fascinated by it. I'm, I'm fascinated by it because when I go to church and I listen to him talk about various passages in the Bible. My mindset is always like, what was the real experience? Like, what are we missing out of these tales? What are we missing out of these recounting of these experiences? What, what happened? I don't think it was nothing. I really don't.

• 2:23:17Speaker 02

  No, I mean.

• 2:23:17Joe Rogan?

  There's something real to it. And, and it, again, it works. That's the, that's the main one for me. It's like, you want to live a better life? Like, if you live as a Christian, you'll have a better life. You'll have a more love-filled, more wonderful life. That's real. And that this idea that, oh, it's fairy tales. Is it? If it's a method for life that gives you a more rich and loving and peaceful life, isn't that better for everybody? Isn't that a real thing? That's a real thing. It's, there's no way you can know whether or not any of the stories in the Bible happened exactly as described. We can't know. So you have to have this leap of faith.

• 2:24:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:24:01Joe Rogan?

  You know, and it gets weird, like, Jesus comes back on a white horse, like, hey, slow down. You know, like Revelations, Book of Revelations is weird. But it's all, like, what's really weird is some of these people that think that, um, what's going on in Iran is to light the, the fire to, uh, bring, to have Jesus return, to light the signal fire. Like, did you hear those recountings by that, uh, these non-commissioned officers that went into these briefings, combat briefings?

• 2:24:28Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 2:24:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, okay. Here's one of them, because I saved it, because it's so kooky that I, I read it and I was like, wait, what the fuck did they say to him? Because it's, it's so crazy.

• 2:24:39Speaker 02

  I tend to be anti, my, my knee jerk is anti-apocalyptic, because I don't see apocalyptic movements, uh, doing a lot of good in the world, so.

• 2:24:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's probably better off.

• 2:24:49Speaker 02

  Mostly, I think a lot of Christians have ignored the Book of Revelations. Um, I, yeah, I think focusing too heavily on that particular book is, probably leads to bad outcomes.

• 2:25:00Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so this was the story that I wrote, this was in Yahoo, I can, I'll send this to you, Jeremy, so you can get this, uh, so we can put this up on the board. Did you find that thing? Okay. "He urged us to tell our troops that this was all part of God's," now, this is the guy who goes, this is a combat readiness briefing. "Urges us to tell our troops this is all part of God's plan, and he specifically referenced numerous citations out of the Book of Revelations referring to Armageddon and the imminent return of Jesus Christ." Uh, he said that President Trump has been anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran to cause Armageddon and mark his return to earth. And they said that the guy who was saying this had a giant smile on his face, which made it all the weirder. Like, like, see, if you could find that in there, does it say that?

• 2:25:47Joe Rogan?

  No, it's not in that particular article. Oh, this is just military.com.

• 2:25:50Speaker 02

  Someone complained about it.

• 2:25:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, a bunch of people complained. There's actually like a lawsuit.

• 2:25:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:55Joe Rogan?

  Religious freedom law.

• 2:25:56Speaker 02

  You risk like the whole self fulfilling prophecy with that one.

• 2:25:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's all just like, what are you talking about?

• 2:26:00Speaker 02

  Wait a second, what are you doing? What machines, what weapons do you control?

• 2:26:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a lot of fucking religious kooks. So it's not just, and also, that is not how Jesus Christ would handle it. Let's go bomb Iran. That's how Jesus is gonna come back. Like, do you think he would tell you that's the right way to do it? Like, how did you interpret the text?

• 2:26:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it doesn't sound very Jesus-y.

• 2:26:18Joe Rogan?

  Jesus-y. Like, how did you interpret that in the text? Okay, uh, before we, so we're deep into the show, so the Epstein stuff.

• 2:26:26Speaker 02

  All right.

• 2:26:26Joe Rogan?

  What is your take on this?

• 2:26:28Speaker 02

  All right, well, so I-

• 2:26:29Joe Rogan?

  You've changed your position?

• 2:26:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've changed. I think, uh, spent a bunch of time with the files. I will say, I think, I did do a piece where I do think that the shrimp is a code word for, for young women. I'm pretty sure about that.

• 2:26:43Joe Rogan?

  What do you think pizza's a code word for?

• 2:26:44Speaker 02

  Well, that was, okay, so then I did a, I did, I had, I had read this article about code words in the Epstein files and I did the shrimps. And then I had some stuff about pizza and grape juice in there, about grape soda, and my co-author Alex was like, dude, you can't go, if you can't go full pizza gate. You know, like, you gotta, you gotta like, so we kept it out. And then the Times mentioned the pizza thing, so I wrote some on X about it. But I ended up taking it down because I was like, I don't really know. This one, I mean, what weirded me about the pizza one was where his urologist was like, "Take your erection dysfunction pills and then we'll go out and get pizza and grape soda." And I was like, that is creepy, you know, as hell.

• 2:27:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:24Speaker 02

  So, but I, I don't, the shrimp one, I'm like, 95% of it means young women because you just see how they talk about it. And I think I proved it in my piece. There's other ones, like, people were like, the jerky is like cannibalism and whatever. It's like, well, it didn't help that the restaurant owner was like, the restaurant's name was like Cannibal and something, yeah. Uh, but, um, I'm skeptical that that's what that was, so.

• 2:27:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, you would be skeptical unless you were part of some of these fucking bizarre satanic rituals and then you would go, oh my God, it's real. Like, there are, look, people have sacrificed people, right? Can we agree to that in, in, in human history?

• 2:28:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh sure, of course.

• 2:28:01Joe Rogan?

  And there have been satanic rituals throughout history. Can we agree to that?

• 2:28:05Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:28:05Joe Rogan?

  Okay. So, there has been cannibalism in history? We agree to that? Okay.

• 2:28:10Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, a lot, actually. There was a lot, yeah.

• 2:28:13Joe Rogan?

  Why wouldn't we think they're talking about that? We don't want to believe it, right? Is that what it is?

• 2:28:18Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:28:18Joe Rogan?

  We don't want to believe that these people, these multimillionaires and billionaires that go to this island and engage in all this crazy shit aren't doing something like child sacrifice or cannibalism.

• 2:28:31Speaker 02

  Well, let's start with the, let's start with the thing that I think a lot of us thought it was, which is that it was an intelligence community sex blackmail operation. That's what made it for me a story. I mean, a creepy guy doing creepy things, there's just, that's, we call that a dog bites man story. You know, what makes it a man bites dog story is like, is that you kind of go, wow, it's like Mossad and CIA running a honeypot. I mean, that's the premise of Ridley Webb's two-volume book, One Nation Under Blackmail.

• 2:29:01Speaker 02

  But when you look at it, like, we don't see that. We see, we see one case where Epstein emails himself, something that sounds like it's in the voice of the Bill Gates science advisor, Boris Karstich, I believe is the name. And in it, they talk about, oh, you know, it's the famous email where he says, oh, you know, I got STDs. It says, you got STDs from Russian hookers or from Russian women, and then you tried to slip antibiotics, or you want me to slip antibiotics in Melinda's drink. And Melinda, like, they asked her about it, it was awful.

• 2:29:34Speaker 02

  It doesn't like, that's not, it's weird what that is. So first of all, it's not even clear what that is.

• 2:29:39Joe Rogan?

  We're just talking about emails.

• 2:29:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:29:42Joe Rogan?

  Right? So who knows what was said? Just from the email, we know that there at least implies that he's got dirt on people and that he is exercising, is doing something with this dirt that he has on Epstein, or on Bill Gates, rather.

• 2:30:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, although...

• 2:30:02Joe Rogan?

  So we're very limited in the amount of data that we possess, right? Because we just have emails between him and other people. Inside those emails, we find a lot of creepy shit. We find that one description where he was talking to this woman, where she said, I'm doing a, doing, investigating a story about an island where they bring children for sex. And he goes, she almost had a heart attack when I told her that person is me.

• 2:30:27Speaker 02

  Well, he was talking about the rumors and gossip about him. But he wasn't saying that he's bringing children to his island for sex.

• 2:30:35Joe Rogan?

  But that is what he said. But if you look at the text-

• 2:30:37Speaker 02

  No, he said, "They're talking about me."

• 2:30:39Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no. She said, "I'm doing a story on a guy who brings children to his island for sex." And he says, "She almost had a heart attack when I told her that person is me."

• 2:30:54Speaker 02

  The person that, my interpretation-

• 2:30:56Joe Rogan?

  You're being charitable.

• 2:30:58Speaker 02

  I'm not, well-

• 2:30:58Joe Rogan?

  But you're being charitable, because that's not what the text says. What the text says is, "Someone's bringing children to an island, I told her that person was me."

• 2:31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31:07Joe Rogan?

  He didn't say, "I told her that's a bullshit rumor, I let her know that's not true."

• 2:31:12Speaker 02

  But that's very much in his style. I mean, look, look, let's back up to the intelligence-

• 2:31:15Joe Rogan?

  But wait a minute, why would you, why would you dismiss that?

• 2:31:17Speaker 02

  We can pull it up and look at it. I just think, um, I think what we see from the files, um, and I think Mike Benz has sort of pointed out the ways in which Epstein might have been a contractor or a financier or somebody hiding money for the intelligence community. Beyond that, I don't see any evidence that he was doing much for the intelligence community, if at all.

• 2:31:39Joe Rogan?

  But you're only getting emails, and only half of the emails, right? So there's only 3 million emails that have been released. There's another 3 million that the FBI possesses that they're not releasing, right?

• 2:31:50Speaker 02

  100%, it's possible that there's something there.

• 2:31:53Joe Rogan?

  Why would you draw any conclusions based on only 50% of the data? And then, if there is 50% of the data that hasn't been released, why? Is that way worse? Because this stuff is fucking nuts. Like, this, this is nuts. Like, take your erection pills so we can go get grape soda? Okay, what?

• 2:32:12Speaker 02

  It's weird.

• 2:32:12Joe Rogan?

  And this lady is investigating a place where they, an island where they bring children for sex? I told her it was me? What?

• 2:32:18Speaker 02

  Well, we should put that one up. I want to look at that one. But I mean, I think, I mean, here you're talking about, um- You're talking about, so first of all, I think the picture is of a guy that is fully in charge of his life and he's doing, he's like, he is like amazing at getting people to love him and care about him. People call him their best friend. In Florida, clearly, he was abusing girls and was busted for that. I think he was doing that because he's a pervert. I don't think, I didn't see, I don't see blackmail coming out of that. And then you get to later and you've got, okay, you've got the Bill Gates thing, which doesn't even appear to be from Epstein. It appears to be for Boris. And remember Boris, the science

• 2:33:02Speaker 02

  advisor, wanted Gates to pay for like a bigger apartment for him in New York. It appeared to be part of him threatening Gates to get something that Boris wanted. So maybe Epstein was advising him on it. But I mean, to have a, the other thing I'm struck by these emails, Joe, is that there are so many different attorneys, people at the FBI, people in the eastern district, the southern district, the Florida southern district, they would all have to be in on it. And I'm skeptical because FBI-

• 2:33:30Joe Rogan?

  Why would they all have to be in on it?

• 2:33:32Speaker 02

  Well, because they would be, they're in these, I mean, they're in this, they're reviewing the information. They're trying to bring, you know, they're trying to bring action against him. We're like-

• 2:33:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, it depends on who are the powerful people that are implicated and what kind of influence they have over what gets released and what doesn't get released. Clearly, names were redacted that are powerful people that are not victims. So that shows you right there that there's some influence.

• 2:33:56Speaker 02

  But there's a reason to do that.

• 2:33:58Joe Rogan?

  Why?

• 2:33:58Speaker 02

  Because they're not guilty.

• 2:34:00Joe Rogan?

  Okay, what about the one where the guy says, where Epstein says, "I like the torture video."

• 2:34:07Speaker 02

  He probably did. I think someone did find the torture video.

• 2:34:09Joe Rogan?

  Why would you redact the name of the person who sent you a torture video if you're not trying to protect a powerful person?

• 2:34:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the Sultan, is that right?

• 2:34:17Joe Rogan?

  Okay, but that was, someone had to just figure that out.

• 2:34:20Speaker 02

  I mean, the redactions are sloppy.

• 2:34:22Joe Rogan?

  But that's, no, no, no. That's evidence that you're trying to protect a powerful person.

• 2:34:27Speaker 02

  Well, but they didn't though, in a lot of cases.

• 2:34:29Joe Rogan?

  But they did right there.

• 2:34:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the redactions, they were making them. I mean, it was like-

• 2:34:34Joe Rogan?

  But they redacted a lot of powerful people's names.

• 2:34:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I mean- I mean, look at like, we're in the midst, I mean, literally, the people that are being canceled for this, like Peter Attia, these people are like victims of a, of, we're in the middle of a complete, you know, you know, moral panic. I mean, where now it's like Me Too version two. I mean, people are having to leave boards. I mean, look, these are people I don't like. I'll just be honest. Like, part of me hesitated because I don't like Larry Summers. I don't like Bill Gates. I don't care about Sarah Ferguson. You know, I didn't say anything. Then they came for Peter Attia.

• 2:35:07Speaker 02

  You know, it's a little bit like, like Peter Attia, like, like, he didn't do anything wrong. And he just, like, lost his job with CBS. And, you know, he's sort of now there under this cloud. And people go, oh, but he was in the hospital and his wife was, or he was with Epstein. His wife was in the hospital. We don't, like, what are we doing here? Like, we're getting involved in Peter Attia's, like, personal life. And so, but he has to get fired for that? I mean, it's gone way too far. Sarah Ferguson had to step down, even though she, you know, she said, I mean, like, these people, I don't like them. Like, these are not people I agree with or think their behavior is, but I don't see.

• 2:35:42Joe Rogan?

  So they're not guilty of crime?

• 2:35:43Speaker 02

  I don't, yeah, they're not, yeah, they're not, like, they were, like, they were all making a big deal out of, like, well, so first of all, let me just say, I'm glad they released the files.

• 2:35:49Joe Rogan?

  Tighten that thing down.

• 2:35:50Speaker 02

  I think they.

• 2:35:50Joe Rogan?

  You keep moving that thing around. It's, every time you do it, it bumps.

• 2:35:54Speaker 02

  I was just like, I'm gonna take.

• 2:35:57Speaker 02

  I, I, I think, like, you know, they, I mean, I'm glad the files were released. There was definitely problems with the redactions. There was also a case where the members of Congress were trying to get stuff redacted. Names got redacted of people that, like, I know in one case, there were people that were getting licenses for guns that had nothing to do with Epstein on the list. In another case, other people's names were revealed who were not, you know, guilty of anything. So that's why you, you protect those people. I think we, you go, everybody, the, the logic right now is that anybody who had any interaction with Epstein had to have known of all the abuse he was doing and are somehow responsible for it. I think that's not right.

• 2:36:34Joe Rogan?

  Okay, but a lot of these people were hanging out with him and doing business with him after he was arrested. So this is all post 2008, and it was very public.

• 2:36:41Speaker 02

  Okay, but, okay, so then, so then, what is our view of people that do the crime and serve the time? I mean, the. The left view has been that-

• 2:36:49Joe Rogan?

  Stop right there. He didn't serve any time.

• 2:36:51Speaker 02

  He served a year.

• 2:36:53Joe Rogan?

  Okay. He did not go to jail for a year. You know, he did house arrest?

• 2:36:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:36:57Joe Rogan?

  It was a very sweetheart deal and the prosecutor, was it the prosecuting attorney or whoever it was? Was told that he was intelligence and this is why they were giving him the sweetheart deal.

• 2:37:06Speaker 02

  That was a, that was a, by the way, I looked into that.

• 2:37:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 2:37:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, we looked into that one and that was, I heard secondhand. So we don't even, that wasn't even heard from Acosta directly. Someone said that they heard Acosta say that and they told the Vicky Ward and I believe her source is anonymous.

• 2:37:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:21Speaker 02

  So that's weak. And you know, Mike, I mean, when Mike Benz was in here and Mike has done a deep dive of this, he's sort of like, look, at best you get Epstein tied up with intelligence. With the Iran contra stuff.

• 2:37:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:37:32Speaker 02

  But he wasn't, I mean, there's two things to see here. With his relationship with the intelligence community, he was at best a contractor, financier, which means he's not an important player in deciding covert clandestine operations. It was the, it's, you know, the head of state.

• 2:37:45Joe Rogan?

  He said he killed cold fusion.

• 2:37:48Speaker 02

  I mean-

• 2:37:49Joe Rogan?

  He said he, he killed PONs, his, his work on cold fusion.

• 2:37:54Speaker 02

  I mean, I don't know, did he? I mean, cold fusion, they keep doing it, right?

• 2:37:59Joe Rogan?

  No, they haven't done it yet.

• 2:38:00Speaker 02

  Well, Carl, I know Carl Page, the founder, the brother of the-

• 2:38:03Joe Rogan?

  But he stated that he killed cold fusion research.

• 2:38:07Speaker 02

  Because he cut off funding for it?

• 2:38:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:09Speaker 02

  Well, but there was, I mean, it didn't work, right?

• 2:38:12Joe Rogan?

  I don't know that.

• 2:38:13Speaker 02

  Well, I mean-

• 2:38:14Joe Rogan?

  He say he killed it. Why would he kill it?

• 2:38:16Speaker 02

  Because it didn't work.

• 2:38:16Joe Rogan?

  Or maybe it did work and it's problematic that it does work because it kills all these people that have all this other money in various energy modalities.

• 2:38:24Speaker 02

  I just, I mean, I go, fusion is like a whole, I mean, the idea that we have a secret, that we've secretly tapped cold fusion and are hiding it for some reason.

• 2:38:32Joe Rogan?

  Or that he was on the way to breaking through to cold fusion and then they killed all of his research.

• 2:38:37Speaker 02

  Or, but why?

• 2:38:38Joe Rogan?

  You don't think that could be done? Because there's so many people that have money in all these other types of energy.

• 2:38:43Speaker 02

  I just don't buy that you could, first of all, that technology is super difficult. To get nuclear fission was this enormous undertaking, huge numbers of people. So you think he's just making it up in an email? The cold fusion stuff is really fringe. I mean, it was like, we're gonna be in a lab and doing cold, you know. But if you're not a physicist, so how do you know that? Well, I mean, I interview a lot of physicists and talk about it. I mean, the big fusion projects are incredibly difficult. They keep announcing advances on them. They can't get them. Cold fusion is not even considered a mainstream fusion project. So to assume that there's some secret, and I just think, this is why I have a problem with the whole reverse engineering thing. Is I just kinda go, you'd have to have so many people working on it and covering it for such a long time. I don't know how you get away with that.

• 2:39:27Speaker 02

  Well, what if he was on the verge of a breakthrough, but this guy steps in and stops funding? And puts some leverage on the university. Clearly, he had dirt on a bunch of people that are at high levels of many universities. That's why a bunch of these guys had to step down. Didn't the head of Harvard step down? I think it's exaggerating. Didn't the head of Harvard step down? Uh, because of him? Wasn't there a connection between Jeffrey Epstein? Well, I mean, Larry Summers, you mean? Yeah. Well, Larry Summers was, you know, he had to step down because he made those remarks about women as president. And then he just, he just had to step down as professor. And I say this, look, I say this genuinely, as someone that is not a Larry Summers fan. I don't think, I think it's ugly what he did. It's terrible. He was trying to get advice from Larry Summers about how to bed a Chinese economist.

• 2:40:12Speaker 02

  And they were gross in their emails, and it's terrible. But I don't think that you lose a job at Harvard over that. I don't think that Peter Tia should lose his job at CBS over that. We've got, that's, we're in Me Too territory. I understand, and I agree. I see what you're saying. But what I'm saying is, clearly, he had influence over some very high and powerful people. He, he also exaggerated his influence. Like, he took a lot of credit for Santa Fe Institute, which was a lot of other people. I mean, he was really, he was really interesting and smart. Like, he gave a thing to, you know, Bannon, talking to Bannon about it. That was really interesting. But he was also, Steve Pinker talked about him as a kibitzer, like a, kind of a bullshitter. And he was, like, we also saw in the files. Really overlooked, we saw how he made his money.

• 2:40:56Speaker 02

  Like, he, he needed to get the Roths, he needed to get a deal with the Department of Justice for his client, Arianna De Rothschild. He hires Catherine Rummler, who was Obama's White House Chief Counsel. And she goes and makes a deal at the Department of Justice. Forty-five million dollar fine for the Rothschilds. Ten million for Kathy Rum, Catherine Rummler. Twenty-five million for Jeffrey Epstein. Everyone's like, where did his money come from? Uh, doing deals like that? Like, you realize, I mean, one of these, succession actually had a little, little subplot about it. Like, there's a few people in the world that do these crazy, high-level deals, like, often like mergers and acquisitions, that have these obscene fees, because they're taking some tiny percentage. Epstein was operating, I think the thing we didn't realize is that when you read the

• 2:41:39Speaker 02

  files, is the levels at which Epstein was operating. I mean, his, his social and emotional intelligence is just off the charts, which is often rare among somebody that's that good analytically, someone that really understands, like, investments in the economy, to be so. And he was a master manipulator. So I don't think it's, I don't think it's fair to, to say to people, you had an association with him after he's, after he's convicted of this crime. Rich guys, look, we have a totally separate system of justice for rich people. I think we've known that for a really long time. It's terrible, I condemn it, we should find solutions to it. That's what Epstein used to get out of it. I don't see any evidence that intelligence helped him. You know, we got other problems.

• 2:42:22Speaker 02

  The victims, Virginia Jeffrey, she claimed that, she claimed that she had sex with Dershowitz. She then goes, oh, I was wrong about that. I mean, there's a lot of those victim testimonials that are untrustworthy. So you get yourself in a situation where you start to put, like-

• 2:42:36Joe Rogan?

  Some of them were probably prostitutes.

• 2:42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the other one is, we, I did some reporting where we helped to, we, we found a fourteen-year-old girl who was being trafficked on the streets. She turned fifteen in the process of us reporting on it. You know, we were covering these PIs that get the police involved, the police go get her, you know, she's orphaned, she goes and backs and live with her aunt. She's back on the street, voluntarily back on the street. Nobody wants to talk about it. It's like- It's like you go rescue people and they're in that world. So these situations are much more complex than, I think the final thing on Epstein that kind of made me question is that I, like a lot of other people, had assumed that someone murdered him. But you start looking at the evidence for that, look, maybe their moral will come out. And even this last round, last few days, there's

• 2:43:23Speaker 02

  some new things that people point to, but they actually are not actually evidence of it. They said, you know, Epstein's brother's attorney, or Epstein's brother's examiner said that, that he broke his hyoid bone, and the hyoid bone is not usually broken in hangings, only in strangulations. Actually, it is broken in hangings, particularly for older people.

• 2:43:43Joe Rogan?

  But it was broken in three places.

• 2:43:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that, I mean, and that's like-

• 2:43:45Joe Rogan?

  And it's low on his neck.

• 2:43:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they, and that happens.

• 2:43:49Joe Rogan?

  Also, the lady who was the guard deposited money into her account.

• 2:43:53Speaker 02

  I saw that. But that doesn't, what does that mean?

• 2:43:55Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:43:55Speaker 02

  I mean, in other words, there's some money.

• 2:43:56Joe Rogan?

  She also Googled his name before he died.

• 2:43:59Speaker 02

  All that's totally-

• 2:44:01Joe Rogan?

  Okay, but-

• 2:44:01Speaker 02

  It's like, let me Scooby do it.

• 2:44:02Joe Rogan?

  Why are you dismissing, I don't understand why you're dismissing this. Because if you're gonna-

• 2:44:05Speaker 02

  I'm not dismissing it, I'm saying-

• 2:44:06Joe Rogan?

  But you, well, hold on, you are. But hold on, you are. Because if you do have a guard, and all of a sudden this guard acquires several payments. She, she made several deposits. One of them was $5,000, just 10 days before he died. And then the cameras are cut, okay, and then they mysteriously don't pay attention to the cell of one of the most important defendants of any case, any gigantic public case involving enormously famous public figures.

• 2:44:36Speaker 02

  It could, it could be.

• 2:44:37Joe Rogan?

  And then this guy hangs himself while he's on suicide watch?

• 2:44:40Speaker 02

  Now, remember, he tried to commit suicide.

• 2:44:41Joe Rogan?

  I understand, but why are you not letting me finish what I'm saying?

• 2:44:43Speaker 02

  Okay, sorry.

• 2:44:43Joe Rogan?

  Because that alone is weird. That alone is weird. That the cameras are cut, that there's no video of it. The whole thing is weird. You don't think it's weird?

• 2:44:52Speaker 02

  Well, I think-

• 2:44:53Joe Rogan?

  You don't think it's weird that this guy, that, that he just finds a way to hang himself in this cage?

• 2:44:58Speaker 02

  I thought, I had that same story. I was like, the cameras are cut, the security guards are asleep.

• 2:45:04Joe Rogan?

  All those things are true.

• 2:45:04Speaker 02

  All those things are true. It's also true that the cameras went out a long time before that night, it didn't just go out that night before. Security guards fall asleep at night all the time. He-

• 2:45:17Speaker 02

  Attempted suicide, I believe eighteen days before.

• 2:45:20Joe Rogan?

  Eighteen days before, he said that his roommate tried to kill him. Did you know that? Do you know his roommate was a cop that had killed four people in contract killings? His cop roommate, his cellmate, was a murderer. He was a guy who was a drug dealing cop, who had killed four people in contract killings. And that was his fucking jailmate, and eighteen days before, he said that guy tried to kill him.

• 2:45:43Speaker 02

  But he said that's- But is there any doubt that he-

• 2:45:45Joe Rogan?

  Look at that guy. That is his fucking cellmate. Why would you put a guy, who's one of the most high-profile defendants in any case ever, in a cell with a hired killer, who's a giant gorilla? Like this huge fucking jacked Italian guy.

• 2:46:00Speaker 02

  But he wasn't in the cell with him that night. He was by himself in the cell that night.

• 2:46:04Joe Rogan?

  He was the guy who eighteen days before Epstein said tried to kill him.

• 2:46:07Speaker 02

  But Epstein tried to kill himself. I don't think there's any doubt about that, right?

• 2:46:12Joe Rogan?

  I don't know if there's, I don't, I've never seen him say it, but I do know that he said that guy tried to kill him. And they found him unresponsive eighteen days before. He said that guy tried to kill him.

• 2:46:24Speaker 02

  And couldn't he have lied about that?

• 2:46:25Joe Rogan?

  That guy was trying to get money.

• 2:46:26Speaker 02

  Couldn't he have lied about that?

• 2:46:28Joe Rogan?

  Video outside cell during Jeffrey Epstein's first suicide attempt no longer exists. How weird. Yeah, why would he lie about that? He's in-

• 2:46:37Speaker 02

  Cause he doesn't wanna have a-

• 2:46:38Joe Rogan?

  He's in a cell with a guy who he's already saying this guy's trying to extort him.

• 2:46:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:46:41Joe Rogan?

  He's already saying this guy's trying to get money from him. And this guy is a known killer. He's killed four people in contract killings. How did you not know about that?

• 2:46:50Speaker 02

  I will say it's possible.

• 2:46:51Joe Rogan?

  How did you not know about that?

• 2:46:53Speaker 02

  I did know about that.

• 2:46:54Joe Rogan?

  You knew about the guy being a contract killer that was his cellmate?

• 2:46:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I knew, I knew that story, but I mean, he didn't have a cellmate the night of his, of his death, right? He, that was one of the mistakes they made, is that because he was on, supposed to be on suicide watch, he was supposed to have a cellmate, didn't have a cellmate. I think that, look-

• 2:47:09Joe Rogan?

  I don't know, but eighteen days before, he did have a cellmate, and eighteen days before, he said that guy tried to kill him.

• 2:47:14Speaker 02

  But eighteen days before, he tried to commit suicide. That's my understanding.

• 2:47:16Joe Rogan?

  I don't know if that's true, though. I don't know if that's true. I don't know why they would put him in jail with a contract killer.

• 2:47:23Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, how many, who, who's in that jail? Aren't the people in that jail pretty rough?

• 2:47:27Joe Rogan?

  His cellmate is a contract killer. Why would he be in a cell with a cop who's a contract killer?

• 2:47:34Speaker 02

  I mean, aren't there a lot of, uh,

• 2:47:36Joe Rogan?

  The night Jeffrey Epstein claimed his cellmate tried to kill him. New documents revealed Jeffrey Epstein claimed his cellmate tried to kill him in an incident before his death.

• 2:47:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, but we don't.

• 2:47:46Joe Rogan?

  Okay, but a guy-

• 2:47:47Speaker 02

  We don't know if that's true.

• 2:47:48Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:47:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:49Joe Rogan?

  Why are you dismissing it though?

• 2:47:51Speaker 02

  I'm not dismissing it, Joe. Look, maybe more evidence will come out. I'm just saying, like, if you look at the evidence we have-

• 2:47:53Joe Rogan?

  But, but, but you're looking to dismiss it.

• 2:47:56Speaker 02

  No, I'm saying, I was confident it was a homicide and now I'm not.

• 2:47:59Joe Rogan?

  Were you aware of this?

• 2:48:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, all that stuff.

• 2:48:03Joe Rogan?

  You were aware that he tried to kill him?

• 2:48:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, of course, of cour-

• 2:48:05Joe Rogan?

  You were aware that he said this?

• 2:48:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was aware that he said that.

• 2:48:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, how come you never brought it up before? You, you seemed shocked when I brought it up.

• 2:48:11Speaker 02

  Well, because, because my understanding is it was a suicide attempt 18 days before.

• 2:48:15Joe Rogan?

  But if he said this guy tried to kill him 18, 18 days before, why didn't you take that into consideration?

• 2:48:22Speaker 02

  No, it is. I mean, I'm just saying, that was all, that was part of-

• 2:48:25Joe Rogan?

  But it doesn't seem like you took it into consideration at all and you're looking to dismiss it.

• 2:48:29Speaker 02

  I didn't, no, I, I, my view earlier was that it was a homicide because the hyoid bone, bone doesn't break when you, uh, have hangings. Um, he said he didn't want to commit suicide. The video went out, the, the, the security guards are asleep. I mean, this was a hu- there was a huge investigation of this by the inspector general. So the number of people that would have had to been involved in this conspiracy and cover up is very large. And it's a large number of people who are in this job for, to be do-gooders. And so I'm very, I mean, that's, look, maybe there will-

• 2:49:00Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:49:00Speaker 02

  So maybe there was some evidence that will come out.

• 2:49:02Joe Rogan?

  They're not in the job to be do-

• 2:49:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, they are.

• 2:49:04Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes they're in the job to be do-gooders. Sometimes they're influenced by very powerful figures that want a particular result. Does that not happen?

• 2:49:13Speaker 02

  But we underestimate-

• 2:49:14Joe Rogan?

  But hold on a second. Does that not happen in the real world?

• 2:49:16Speaker 02

  Of course, of course, of course.

• 2:49:17Joe Rogan?

  It does, right? And wouldn't you imagine if you're dealing with multiple billionaires that may be compromised by the evidence that this guy's gonna relay in a trial? That that would be one of the times that they would want to exert that kind of influence?

• 2:49:28Speaker 02

  It's possible. And like I said, in our piece we wrote, it's possible. But I think at this point, we don't know. I don't think we have the evidence either way. And, and that's for me, that's the change. I went from, I think it was a homicide to now I don't know. I didn't understand that he committed suicide 18 days before.

• 2:49:44Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no. He didn't commit suicide 18 days before. His cellmate tried to kill him 18 days before.

• 2:49:51Speaker 02

  That's what he said, right?

• 2:49:53Joe Rogan?

  They found him unresponsive. He said, "My cellmate tried to kill me."

• 2:49:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, but well, how do we know that? Why would we think?

• 2:50:01Joe Rogan?

  Okay, and then was it reported that it was an attempted suicide to try to dismiss the fact that his cellmate was trying to kill him? Because they wanted his cellmate to kill him? We don't know. But you can't dismiss that.

• 2:50:12Speaker 02

  The psychologist thought he was suicidal. They, you know, I think, my understanding, he could have lied about the room. He didn't want to have a roommate. Um, that's like why, and they didn't have a roommate and he was killed.

• 2:50:23Joe Rogan?

  Why would you want to have a roommate who's a fucking contract killer? Who's a sociopathic cop who killed four guys?

• 2:50:30Speaker 02

  But if you're, if you're a contract killer and you're in Epstein's, um, cell, why would you, uh, want Epstein to die in your cell?

• 2:50:37Joe Rogan?

  Because you want to kill him because people are going to give you like extra cigarettes at the commissary or something.

• 2:50:42Speaker 02

  Do we have any evidence for that though?

• 2:50:43Joe Rogan?

  Who fucking knows? No, but who fucking knows?

• 2:50:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, but we don't know.

• 2:50:45Joe Rogan?

  He's a guy who already kills people and he's in jail forever. He's going to be in jail forever. So for that guy, you say, "Will you kill that guy for me?" Like that, it's not even much of a stretch.

• 2:50:55Speaker 02

  It's not much of a stretch that Epstein would have killed himself.

• 2:50:58Joe Rogan?

  It's not much of a stretch that that guy killed him either. If, if he's telling the truth that there was a report 18 days before that that guy tried to kill him.

• 2:51:04Speaker 02

  We just don't know. I mean, that's my view is we don't know.

• 2:51:07Joe Rogan?

  But I don't understand why you would want to make the conclusion that he tried to kill himself.

• 2:51:10Speaker 02

  It's not the, it's not a conclusion.

• 2:51:12Joe Rogan?

  And that this guy who's a contract killer was not actually trying to kill him. When he said he was 18 days before.

• 2:51:18Speaker 02

  Well, Joe, I mean, I, don't, please don't misrepresent. I'm saying, I don't know. And that the change for me is going from really looking like a homicide to really not knowing because there's some evidence that I had not considered before that.

• 2:51:30Joe Rogan?

  Right. You know, the guy who did the autopsy was the guy from that autopsy show on HBO who, his name's Michael Baden and he was famous.

• 2:51:38Speaker 02

  The official autopsy?

• 2:51:39Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no. The one his brother authorized. Because he was famous for catching people.

• 2:51:43Speaker 02

  He was a medical examiner, right?

• 2:51:44Joe Rogan?

  He was a medical examiner.

• 2:51:45Speaker 02

  He's also famous for, he's also paid.

• 2:51:48Joe Rogan?

  Psych conducted a post-suicide watch report. Epstein denied suicidality.

• 2:51:53Joe Rogan?

  And stated, "I have no interest in killing myself." And that it would be crazy to take his life, although he was depressed and unhappy about his current legal situation. He was told he will remain on psychological observation in the near term.

• 2:52:08Speaker 02

  He said, like, you see even there, he says, he says he didn't recall he got the marks on his neck, so he didn't blame that on...

• 2:52:14Joe Rogan?

  But no, no, that's, that's here, but then the other details from the other report said that he complained that the guy tried to kill himself. That the, his cellmate rather tried to kill him.

• 2:52:24Speaker 02

  Can you go back, go back to that?

• 2:52:25Joe Rogan?

  Okay, we can find that again, but I don't...

• 2:52:28Speaker 02

  I don't think, but Joe, I think the, I don't think that you've got it. I don't think you've got it. I don't think you've got the, I don't think you've, I don't think we've nailed the, the case that it was a homicide at all.

• 2:52:36Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm not saying that I know.

• 2:52:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:38Joe Rogan?

  But I'm saying...

• 2:52:39Speaker 02

  Okay, so then we agree we don't know.

• 2:52:40Joe Rogan?

  Yes, but you're dismissing these major factors of him being in a cell with a contract killer, him saying 18 days before the guy tried to kill him, then finding him unresponsive, that someone tried to strangle him 18 days before.

• 2:52:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I mean, there's just, you can make a case either way, is my point. You can make the case that he was, he was murdered, you make the case that he was suicidal.

• 2:52:59Joe Rogan?

  You certainly can, but at a certain point in time, with enough circumstantial evidence, it's fucking weird, like, the cameras being down, the guards being asleep.

• 2:53:06Speaker 02

  The cameras were down, I think, I don't want to, don't quote me on exactly, but they weren't down like that day before or something, they were down for a while before. And the security guards fall asleep all the time.

• 2:53:16Joe Rogan?

  What did you find about him, the roommate, trying to kill him?

• 2:53:20Speaker 05

  Oh, I mean, this is the, this is like their report, I was trying to find his, but this is in this, uh, report right here. He was found in a fetal position, laying on the floor, snoring.

• 2:53:31Joe Rogan?

  Epstein told officers that Taglioni, cellmate, had tried to kill him, and that had been harassing him. Taglioni claimed he had been asleep and woke up to see Epstein with a string around his neck.

• 2:53:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:53:43Joe Rogan?

  Does that make fucking sense?

• 2:53:44Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, actually, but Joe, just to, so if you want to interpret...

• 2:53:48Joe Rogan?

  He says the guy tried to kill him.

• 2:53:49Speaker 02

  And if Epstein, but, so, and the result of this is that Epstein doesn't have a cellmate, right? So Epstein doesn't want to have a, if you want to kill yourself, you don't want a cellmate. So if you want a guy to go back.

• 2:54:02Joe Rogan?

  If you want to go, got a guy to go back and finish the job, you shut the cameras off and you open the cell and you let this guy kill him.

• 2:54:08Speaker 02

  But they shut the cameras off, when they shut the cameras off, though?

• 2:54:11Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't matter, there's no.

• 2:54:12Speaker 02

  It does matter, because they, the machine, it broke.

• 2:54:15Joe Rogan?

  Even the video that's there has been edited, the one video they show of the outside of the cell, a minute's missing from it, there's a lot of weird shit to it, man.

• 2:54:22Speaker 02

  I agree, but it's not, where you should arrive on, in my view, where the facts lead you, is that we don't know. And so, that's, that's, that's a difference for me than just saying.

• 2:54:33Joe Rogan?

  That's safe, we don't know, but it is kind of fucking weird that he's in a cell with a contract killer, kind of fucking weird that he made a complaint that the contract killer tried to kill him eighteen days before.

• 2:54:42Speaker 02

  Not if you're trying to get.

• 2:54:43Joe Rogan?

  So did they remove that guy from his cell, is that what happened?

• 2:54:46Speaker 02

  He did, yeah, he's by himself, obviously, the night he killed himself, or, or was killed.

• 2:54:50Joe Rogan?

  Um, or was killed. Um, find the, did you find the email where he's talking about, um, the lady on the island, where she's saying that we brought children to an, that someone brought children to an island?

• 2:55:04Speaker 02

  Remember, he's faced with life in prison.

• 2:55:06Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:55:07Speaker 02

  He loved his decadent, hedonistic life, there's plenty of motivations for him to kill himself rather than live in prison the rest of his life.

• 2:55:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:55:15Speaker 02

  And remember, recent, like, I think it was like a day or two before he lost his bail appeal, so he thought he'd get on bail, he didn't even get on bail, he's gonna be stuck there.

• 2:55:23Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:55:24Speaker 02

  Um, the, the psychologist didn't believe him, she thought he was suicidal, and, and so the, the, so one way you interpret it is that they messed up, they, they did a bad job, they, and they should have, they should have known that he was suicidal and they should have had a roommate there, they, the guards should not have fallen asleep, they should have fixed the video camera.

• 2:55:42Joe Rogan?

  I just can't imagine, I'm such a high-profile defendant and you're not watching him like a fucking hawk. I would imagine that a guy like that would be in protective custody with, you know, no fucking shoelaces, no, no way to hang himself.

• 2:55:55Speaker 02

  I think you overestimate our prison system.

• 2:55:58Joe Rogan?

  I would think that you would do your very best in this case to make sure that this guy is watched.

• 2:56:04Speaker 02

  They didn't.

• 2:56:04Joe Rogan?

  They bring him to trial.

• 2:56:05Speaker 02

  I mean, they didn't. They should have had a roommate in his cell and they didn't.

• 2:56:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, they put him in a fucking cell with a killer. So it seems a little bit more than that.

• 2:56:12Speaker 02

  But when you say it that way, you make it sound like the killer was in the cell the night he was killed.

• 2:56:16Joe Rogan?

  I make it sound like this killer was in the cell with him when he said the killer tried to kill him.

• 2:56:20Speaker 02

  Right, but or he tried to kill himself.

• 2:56:23Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that a little weird?

• 2:56:24Speaker 02

  Why didn't the guy do it then? Why didn't it work?

• 2:56:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, he probably choked him unconscious and thought he was dead and he survived. They found him unresponsive.

• 2:56:32Speaker 02

  Or he tried to kill himself and then when they said, "Why did you try to kill himself?" He blames it on the roommate so he doesn't have to have a roommate anymore.

• 2:56:39Joe Rogan?

  It's possible.

• 2:56:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. So find that email where he says that it's him.

• 2:56:44Speaker 05

  I'm trying to. I don't have access to the files right now. The thing I was using is gone.

• 2:56:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's gone?

• 2:56:52Speaker 05

  Ian Carroll's app was really good and they've taken a down book because they're gonna make it public and that was only in beta.

• 2:56:58Speaker 02

  Gmail, Gmail's...

• 2:56:59Speaker 05

  I know, I was digging through that too and I've got so many fucking tabs open. You guys have moved around a lot.

• 2:57:03Speaker 02

  So if you kind of go, so for me, if I go, "We don't know if it was a homicide or suicide." The intelligence community work was, appears to be of a long time ago, and he was a contractor. We don't have any other evidence of a sex blackmail operation other than that email. Now, there is one other thing that I thought was, so one for the theory that he's a blackmailer is that he put, he's like, we have emails of him putting cameras in Kleenex boxes, hidden cameras in Kleenex boxes with motion detectors. Was that in order to engage in a blackmail operation?

• 2:57:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, you don't even necessarily have to blackmail people.

• 2:57:44Joe Rogan?

  Okay, your friend told me about the projects he's doing researching a really bad guy who gets children for sex sent to his island. She almost fainted when I told her that person is me. That seems pretty clear.

• 2:57:58Speaker 02

  I think, no, no, I think he's saying that she's writing a story. It was about him, but I don't think he's admitting that he's bringing children to his island for sex.

• 2:58:08Joe Rogan?

  I don't know about you, but if I was sending an email and I was talking about someone researching, someone who's sending children to an island for sex, I would also include that I let her know that that was bullshit.

• 2:58:22Speaker 02

  Well, she ends up coming and meeting with them, right? You've seen the follow-up to this?

• 2:58:26Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:58:26Speaker 02

  So she ends up coming to meet with her and I don't know if he like, gives her money or something, or funds her, but it's like, yeah, I mean.

• 2:58:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, we would have to talk to her.

• 2:58:36Speaker 02

  The other thing is that like, without justifying, I mean, I think that after 2008, there's not, I don't think there's any evidence, and I could be wrong, there's not a lot of evidence, that anybody underage came to, you know, that Epstein, you know, abused anybody under 18. And I'm not defending abusing women over 18, but that did seem like a pretty big change.

• 2:58:56Joe Rogan?

  Epstein associate found dead in Paris prison cell.

• 2:58:59Speaker 05

  After he said he was gonna flip.

• 2:59:01Joe Rogan?

  Oh, shocker. Weird, maybe he got sad too.

• 2:59:04Speaker 02

  Well, maybe.

• 2:59:06Speaker 05

  He's one of the co-conspirators also.

• 2:59:07Speaker 02

  I mean, people kill themselves a lot, you know? Psychopaths also kill themselves a lot.

• 2:59:11Joe Rogan?

  Also, people get people killed because they're gonna flip.

• 2:59:14Speaker 02

  It's possible, and it's just, uh, it's just, we would just need evidence for it.

• 2:59:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:19Speaker 02

  So.

• 2:59:19Joe Rogan?

  This is really, if you're gonna kill somebody, you should probably make it so that there's not a lot of evidence, right?

• 2:59:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, in this case.

• 2:59:27Joe Rogan?

  Did he kill himself?

• 2:59:28Speaker 05

  He hung, hung in a cell.

• 2:59:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:59:31Speaker 02

  Hung himself. He had a lot of sheets in there?

• 2:59:32Speaker 05

  Hunged himself. Hanged himself. However you wanna word it.

• 2:59:36Speaker 02

  So then it's like.

• 2:59:37Joe Rogan?

  They should make their sheets out of hemp so you can't rip them.

• 2:59:39Speaker 02

  So then the theory would be what? That Bill Gates hired a contract killer to, or who did it then?

• 2:59:44Joe Rogan?

  Who knows?

• 2:59:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:59:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, who knows what, who knew what, about what, and when?

• 2:59:48Speaker 02

  But I don't think it's the, I don't think it's the intelligence community, because we're not seeing, I just, we're not, I mean, Mike came in here and you guys talked for a long time, and Mike's not suggesting.

• 2:59:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's no evidence that it was. I mean, we don't have like, clear cut, he did this and they killed these guys because of that. We don't have that.

• 3:00:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:00:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:07Speaker 02

  So, I mean.

• 3:00:08Joe Rogan?

  But we also don't have three million files.

• 3:00:11Speaker 02

  We also, like, the things that we don't, he doesn't need blackmail to make money.

• 3:00:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, he also doesn't need blackmail in order to be able to get people to do things and influence them. And if you have video of people fucking people and doing things they're not supposed to be doing, and you're giving them drugs, and you got them on this island for these wild parties, they're more inclined to do things that would do stuff for you.

• 3:00:33Speaker 02

  I mean, it's possi-, I mean, I'll tell you, I mean, FBI confiscated a lot of films and videos. They had that. I was always very suspicious of that. The fact that he's talking about hidden cameras and motion, it's very bad.

• 3:00:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, that was the narrative before, that there was thousands of hours, hours, rather, of horrible videos.

• 3:00:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:00:49Joe Rogan?

  Right?

• 3:00:50Speaker 02

  So, it's possible that there was, now, I don't know that I would be, um...

• 3:00:55Joe Rogan?

  Visitors describe a bathroom reminiscent of James Bond movies, hidden beneath a stairway lined with lead to provide shelter from attack and supplied with closed-circuit television screens and a telephone, both concealed in a cabinet behind the sink, wrote the Times. The townhouse is now reportedly owned by Wexner's even more mysterious protege, Jeffrey Epstein.

• 3:01:15Speaker 02

  That was in 2003, so, yeah.

• 3:01:17Joe Rogan?

  So, this is even before his arrest.

• 3:01:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also, the other part of the thing with this, remember when Jeff Bezos was blackmailed? And he was just like...

• 3:01:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 3:01:26Speaker 02

  He was like, "I'm just gonna..."

• 3:01:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, that was just love letters to, in Lawrence Sanchez.

• 3:01:30Speaker 02

  They were pretty racy.

• 3:01:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but, I mean, it was, still, it was private, personal things, where he was sending them to a woman he loved.

• 3:01:38Speaker 02

  It shows the risks of engaging in blackmail. And so, Epstein...

• 3:01:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, that turned out to be a dummy. That was like someone's brother, right?

• 3:01:47Speaker 02

  So, but Epstein, I mean, in other words, if you use it, like, if you actually, like, use your blackmail, I think it's very hard, then, to maintain your reputation as somebody, now, maybe it was sort of hovering, never articulated, he was attracting people. I mean, what's so striking about it is he's attracting people to him. He's got all this bonhomie, "Oh, come hang out with Chomsky and Ehud Barak", and, um, and all these people, it's like a really good time. You know, I think then being like, oh, I have blackmail material on you, you need to do it. I mean, he's getting people to do what he wants them to do for money, you know, for, for feeling like good vibes, being in on some Israeli peace talks. I don't then see him going around and maybe, look, again, like, I totally can, maybe, I, I just haven't

• 3:02:30Speaker 02

  seen the evidence that he's going around being like, oh, I have blackmail material on you, you have to do what I want. He got Clinton, he probably got.

• 3:02:37Joe Rogan?

  Why do you think he's filming everybody then?

• 3:02:40Speaker 02

  That is, he could be a pervert. I mean, there's plenty of evidence of perversion, right?

• 3:02:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, the ranch. Investigators are finally looking into Jeffrey Epstein's New Mexico ranch. Federal authorities apparently never searched the property, but now state authorities will reopen a 2019 investigation. About time, New Mexico.

• 3:02:58Speaker 02

  It's great, it's great.

• 3:03:00Speaker 05

  Someone on Twitter had a, or X has a very long, I was reading it earlier and got bored, but it's very long about the, the link with the lottery.

• 3:03:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. How they won the lottery.

• 3:03:10Joe Rogan?

  It's weird.

• 3:03:11Speaker 05

  Wait till that, if that's accurate.

• 3:03:12Speaker 02

  Weird. It's weird, I agree.

• 3:03:14Joe Rogan?

  That one's crazy.

• 3:03:15Speaker 02

  I mean, Mike also points out that he was leased this incredible mansion in New York by the State Department, but then the State Department, like, sued him. So it's, you know, they're like, he, if he was like, really.

• 3:03:26Joe Rogan?

  Didn't Les Wexner give him a house in Manhattan?

• 3:03:29Speaker 02

  And then, well, didn't that, didn't the big house, that was the, this was a previous mansion.

• 3:03:33Joe Rogan?

  So the people are just giving him fucking mansion?

• 3:03:36Speaker 05

  What about that thing I told you about? Someone found that the person who notarized that $10 transfer of the house conveniently filmed, like, the best 9/11 footage?

• 3:03:47Speaker 05

  And that, those are the 3 million, like, the, the timing of those missing files is right around the 2001, 99 time period.

• 3:03:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, we, I think that what the files are important is that we saw he's able to make his money as a high-level fixer. We saw people were really into him. People loved him, he was magnetic. He's able to get people to do things that he wants without using that as a tool. And we're not seeing, I just don't see, we're, I don't think we're seeing any signs or footprints or any of that of engaging in blackmail. We have the cameras.

• 3:04:18Joe Rogan?

  We don't have half of the files.

• 3:04:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04:22Joe Rogan?

  We, what we have is weird.

• 3:04:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04:24Joe Rogan?

  The grape soda, the shrimp, the pizza references, the jerky. All that stuff's weird. This, this lady saying that there's an island where a bad guy's bringing children for sex. She almost fainted when I said that person's me. All this stuff is kind of fucked, right?

• 3:04:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04:39Joe Rogan?

  Would you admit it's kind of fucked?

• 3:04:40Speaker 02

  The shrimps one, they're definitely talking about, they're objectifying women.

• 3:04:44Joe Rogan?

  Children for sex, don't you think that's kind of fucked?

• 3:04:46Speaker 02

  I think it's, I think that he was, I mean, my interpretation, I mean, one interpretation of it is that, yeah, he's freely admitting on an email that he's trafficking children. I find that difficult to believe. That he would put that, I mean, if you're gonna say that, well, he doesn't put the blackmail stuff in email, but he's gonna put it in an email that he's bringing children to the island? I mean, I think he's being sarcastic there. I think he's saying, oh, that guy is me, like, that's what they say about me.

• 3:05:13Joe Rogan?

  Why wouldn't you elaborate? And say, I mean, if you're sending this to someone who knows you?

• 3:05:18Speaker 02

  The person he sends it to knows that it's not true. That's why. Because, I mean, I think that person works for him, right? Masha, is that one of the women that he had?

• 3:05:26Joe Rogan?

  I don't know.

• 3:05:27Speaker 02

  I, I just, I don't think that's him saying I'm.

• 3:05:30Joe Rogan?

  Maybe.

• 3:05:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:05:32Joe Rogan?

  Maybe. All right, uh, we gotta wrap this up. Anything else? Want to?

• 3:05:36Speaker 02

  I got one, I got, uh, someone gave me a, a video. I thought I'd, I can share it with you guys.

• 3:05:40Joe Rogan?

  Of what?

• 3:05:41Speaker 02

  A UFO video.

• 3:05:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 3:05:43Speaker 02

  Wait, do we, how we make it a tradition to end every sesh with a, can I send it to Jamie?

• 3:05:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you could airdrop it.

• 3:05:50Speaker 02

  All right.

• 3:05:52Joe Rogan?

  Is it compelling? More compelling than Yahweh's video?

• 3:05:56Speaker 02

  You didn't like the Yahweh video?

• 3:05:58Joe Rogan?

  That was kind of interesting. It's, he's fun.

• 3:06:00Speaker 02

  Is it compelling? All right, I mean, uh, you guys will decide. Or no, here, I send it to. Oh, can I ask you something?

• 3:06:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:06Speaker 02

  I was curious about.

• 3:06:07Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 3:06:08Speaker 02

  Um, oh, I was gonna say, you know, Elon. You think, you think Elon knows more than he's letting on about UAPs?

• 3:06:14Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 3:06:15Speaker 02

  How is, how do you know that?

• 3:06:17Joe Rogan?

  Well, because he works with NASA. If he knows some- he knows something. Also, some people have told me that he knows some things.

• 3:06:24Speaker 02

  But don't you ask him privately?

• 3:06:25Joe Rogan?

  He don't tell me shit.

• 3:06:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:06:26Joe Rogan?

  I got a big mouth.

• 3:06:27Speaker 02

  I, uh, I asked somebody that was high up in his operation.

• 3:06:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 3:06:31Speaker 02

  Uh, we were, it was, we were on the record, but I won't reveal who they are, what they said.

• 3:06:35Joe Rogan?

  What'd they say?

• 3:06:35Speaker 02

  And they go, I said, "You guys must be..." I was like, "At SpaceX, you guys must just, like, have to... Don't you have to edit out, like, UFOs that you get?" You know? And the person just looked at me and they just said, "Elon's really close with the federal government." That was all they said.

• 3:06:48Joe Rogan?

  Good. Alright, let's see, play this.

• 3:06:50Speaker 02

  Oh no. Doesn't look like much.

• 3:06:52Joe Rogan?

  Just play it.

• 3:06:56Joe Rogan?

  What am I looking at?

• 3:06:57Speaker 02

  This is her, this is her video in here. I think she shows, I think she zooms in.

• 3:07:04Joe Rogan?

  I don't know what we're looking at.

• 3:07:06Speaker 02

  It's here in Texas.

• 3:07:08Joe Rogan?

  What are you looking at, lady?

• 3:07:13Joe Rogan?

  Okay. It's like most UFO videos.

• 3:07:17Speaker 02

  I know.

• 3:07:17Joe Rogan?

  It's just a dot.

• 3:07:18Speaker 02

  No, let it, let it, just let it-

• 3:07:19Joe Rogan?

  It gets better?

• 3:07:19Speaker 02

  30 seconds, guys, come on.

• 3:07:20Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 3:07:20Speaker 02

  Let me see.

• 3:07:23Joe Rogan?

  She's tripping.

• 3:07:25Speaker 02

  It looks like it's, um...

• 3:07:27Joe Rogan?

  You know her? Is she your friend?

• 3:07:29Speaker 02

  She's my friend.

• 3:07:32Joe Rogan?

  Is she intoxicated while this is happening?

• 3:07:34Speaker 02

  No, no, she's not. And this is like, not far from here. It's somewhere in Texas. I think she zooms in at the end. No?

• 3:07:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, we still got 10 seconds for it to get good.

• 3:07:47Speaker 00

  My god, what?

• 3:07:49Speaker 02

  Oh, she doesn't, I thought she had a... When she, once she showed me, she zoomed in on it. It's much better.

• 3:07:54Joe Rogan?

  Disappointing. We probably should've looked at that.

• 3:07:57Speaker 02

  Just cut that all out.

• 3:07:59Joe Rogan?

  Alright, let's wrap it up. Thank you, sir.

• 3:08:01Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me, Joe.

• 3:08:02Joe Rogan?

  Appreciate you.

• 3:08:03Speaker 02

  Thanks for being here.

• 3:08:03Joe Rogan?

  Alright, bye, everybody.

• 3:08:19Joe Rogan?

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• 3:09:04Joe Rogan?

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• 3:09:49Joe Rogan?

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