Stop Letting Emotions Make Decisions with Emma Grede

Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ There’s a version of you that keeps waiting—for permission, for clarity, for someone to hand you the opportunity. In this conversation, I sit down with Emma Grede to challenge that thinking head-on. She breaks down what it actually takes to lead, build, and succeed at the highest level—without hiding behind politeness, fear, or overthinking. If you want more confidence, more clarity, and more control over your life and career, this is where it starts: with yourself. Buy Emma’s new book: Start with Yourself: A New Vision for Work & Life https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Start-With-Yourself/Emma-Grede/9781668085486 Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. LMNT. Head to https://drinkLMNT.com/jefferson to try risk free. Timeline. Their clinically proven formula is now available at a new, lower price. Mitopure now starts at $79, when you go to https://timeline.com/jefferson BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Before we get into it, quick note. I just launched a premium version of the podcast on Supercast. If you want ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs where I answer your questions directly, it's all there. If you'd like to support the show and get access to all of that, I want you to go to jefferson.supercast.com, or you can check the link in the description below to join. All right, let's get into it. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast. Today, my guest is my friend, Emma Grede. She is the founding partner of SKIMS, as well as the co-founder and CEO of Good American, and has a roster of businesses and foundation boards and shows that she is a part of. This woman is incredible.

• 1:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Today's episode started with me confessing something big to Emma, and that is the first time I met her at her podcast, Aspire, which is in the SKIMS office there in LA. I was actually intimidated. Before I even met her, all of her team showed up, and let me tell you what, she has a very firm control over what exactly she's doing in business. And so, this was my very first interaction with her, so we get to have fun with that. Also, she has a book coming out called Start With Yourself: A New Vision for Work and Life, which is out today. The link's down there in the show notes. We also took a deep dive on being direct. What does it mean? How to do it without apology and with confidence? We talked family, we talked career, we talked business, and we also talked about that other B-word: balance, if there even is such a thing. I hope you enjoy.

• 2:00Jefferson Fisher?

  I have to tell you, when I was on your podcast, was that a few months ago? Almost a year ago?

• 2:05Speaker 02

  It was, what was it? It was almost, you were literally like the first, one of the first interviews I ever did. And I was like, I cannot believe I'm speaking to Jefferson as like day two. No, it was true.

• 2:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, I get up there and I, you know, I don't wear skims. I don't wear, I don't, you know, the jeans.

• 2:30Jefferson Fisher?

  So I get up there and this is, I think it was, it might've been at Skims, like one of the places.

• 2:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Obviously I need to update on the brand names.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, clearly, clearly you need, well, you need to update your underwear closet. That's what I was thinking.

• 2:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I need to, I need to upgrade my shapewear.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Why don't you wear skims? I don't understand.

• 2:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Hey, the new collab. Okay, so anyway, I get up there, get off the elevator.

• 2:59Jefferson Fisher?

  And everybody was just buzzing, all right? And it felt like the movie Devil Wears Prada, which I've only seen once. But it was like, I was thinking, I was like, okay, who is this woman? Who's coming? I was like, I was like, I know, I was like, oh my gosh, should I be worried of like? Because everybody in your office was like, had it down to a T, looked serious and was moving and going. And eight different things were happening at once. And all I know, it was like, she's almost here. And I was like, what is happening? I remember, I remember.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  I told them to do that for you.

• 3:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I remember being at the little podcast, like beautiful little waiting room. And they're like, she's, Miss Greed's about to be here with you. And I was like, oh my, okay. Everybody was like, you better be ready. And you come in, okay? And you were the most like charming, laughing, just spurting out just the most casual, easygoing.

• 3:56Jefferson Fisher?

  That being said, also, the one that I could tell, oh, if she wanted to, she could crank the temperature on everybody even more. Like, I knew in the background, I was like, she's

• 4:06Speaker 02

  What is happening?

• 4:06Jefferson Fisher?

  She's one of the most charming people I've ever met. But I know, deep down, this is not somebody that you you mess around with. So I can say

• 4:13Speaker 02

  I feel like you've got me in one.

• 4:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah, I am living proof that the stuff, the book that you have, Start With Yourself, works, so.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  Listen, it's so true. My podcast is in a cupboard in my office. And it's the only way it would work for me, right? Like, it has to be right there. And when I interviewed you, it was right in the, like, the super, super early days. I'd interviewed Jay Shetty and then you. And I was like, oh, my God, like, this is so crazy. But again, of course, because of who you are.

• 4:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Then Cardi B.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Immediately put, then Cardi B, yeah. It's like the three of you.

• 4:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Me and the Cardi B is a very easy.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  You and the Cardi, like, just that.

• 4:50Jefferson Fisher?

  A very natural next step.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Same, same. They're just lovely people with the, with the, with the voice that just puts you at ease.

• 4:57Jefferson Fisher?

  It's because we can, oh, it's the same thing.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Exactly, there you go, see? The same, same. I'll tell Cardi.

• 5:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, please. Your book, all right, Start With Yourself. At first, I thought, you know, I got it. And I said, okay, this is, is this, is it almost wrong to have that mentality? And I think it's that contrast, Emma, that made me go, okay, I'm going to keep reading and understanding that, no, it's about making sure that you can't control everybody else, but you can control yourself. And when you say, before I blame this, before I blame that, before I start trying to fix everybody else, how about you start fixing yourself? And so, once I had that type of perspective switch, I said, okay, this is, this is really great. And we're going to keep talking about the book throughout the episode.

• 5:47Jefferson Fisher?

  But you have just such a depth of experience that I don't think.

• 5:55Jefferson Fisher?

  As many people appreciate just the level of things that you have to, you get to, not have to, you get to manage and be responsible for and balance and juggles. And I know a lot of people ask you questions about what you do. The first question I want to ask Emma is what you don't do. So what are some things that you find, maybe in meeting with somebody? What do you think is, and let's put it in the business context first. What's a red flag that you see that others might miss in business relationships?

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Oof, you know, first of all, I'm gonna, first of all, I'm so happy to speak to you today. And I'm so happy that I get to speak to you in this, in this context around the book. You know, I, there are so many red flags, but a big one for me is when it starts on what do you do?

• 6:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  What? Like hello, who are you? How are you? Like, what do you know? To me, that's always a red flag. And you know, I think that in business, you can understand so much about a person from that initial introduction. Like you know, when someone sees you, you know, when someone sees past you. And I'm a real people person, like I will not remember your name, but I will remember how your grandfather came into the country. But that's also because I bothered to ask you that question. And so to me, I like to figure out in business or otherwise, like the essence of a person. Like, who are you? Like, how do you come here in this room?

• 7:38Speaker 02

  And so when somebody starts like trying to figure out like what's in it for them? How can I help them? That's like a red flag to me. I'm like, you're already out. It's already over for me and you.

• 7:49Jefferson Fisher?

  When it starts really superficial, when it starts really superficial, I can see that.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's something that the older you get, that changes, right? Like I am, you know, I'm 40, I keep telling everyone I'm 42, I'm 43. My husband had to come and stop me the other day. He's like, I've heard you say it's Three times today, you're forty three. So I'm forty three now, and I think that part of even this journey of that I've just been on writing this book for the last couple of years, like you, you get close to yourself, you start to understand so much about who it is that you are. And so I'm just very interested in in understanding other people and what makes them uniquely who they are.

• 8:28Jefferson Fisher?

  And you said in in your book, and I've seen some other interviews, because I listened to you too, Emma, it's not just, it's not just one way.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  It's not one way, thanks.

• 8:37Jefferson Fisher?

  It's not just one way, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a two way road. Of understanding also the value, or at least not, not being afraid to try and mask the fact that some things are transactional. Where you don't have to, because it's almost worse when somebody starts with the gloss, the fake, when you know they're, they're going to be asking for something.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  They're here for something.

• 9:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Saying is just own that, I would rather you own that than try and be genuine. So do you see that as a something that you go, I can already tell that they're wanting something from me and it's how does that process for you?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, I, I don't want to shy away from that because as a woman in business, I think that often we're kind of trained to kind of like have this almost like performative politeness, soft ambition idea that we're not trying to get something. I'm like, we're here to make money, that's the purpose of business, like that's okay in that context. And so I don't like to, I'm a very straightforward person with a very high moral baseline. You know exactly what I want because I told you, not because I'm trying to hide behind something and then like sneak it around the back. I think that that intentionality of

• 9:58Speaker 02

  being forthright, being open, saying what you need, what your expectations are, it actually takes all of the all of the crap out of business. And so I wrote this book, you know, by the way, I wanted people to use, not just to buy it, buy it. And to read, I was like, how do you create something that is useful? And and it's about self leadership. It's about this idea that we can't control what's happening in the world. We can't control what other people are going to do. But we can control the way we come into a space, the way we behave, the energy we put in, right? And so I think that that is really important. And that's important in business and it's important in life more generally.

• 10:40Jefferson Fisher?

  I get such a treasure talking to you. Now, this is the second time we've we've had the chance to to meet. And of course, we've communicated since. But what a treasure is for me is I get to talk to somebody who has such a roster of experience and a depth of success in running businesses and somebody who is a woman and a woman of color and to say, OK, I know that when somebody asks me, a white male, say, how do you how do you say things direct? All right. And I know my perspective is just one. And I will get comments which are very well received of that wouldn't work for me.

• 11:25Jefferson Fisher?

  That doesn't work in the in I'm a woman, that's not going to work for me. You don't understand what that's like. And the answer is, I do not know what that's like. That's correct. And so here I have, to me, an expert that I couldn't think is any more positioned for this kind of advice. So in your world, as a businesswoman, how do you speak with directness?

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Just like a white guy.

• 11:52Jefferson Fisher?

  No, let's not do that, please.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Here's the thing, you know, it's really funny because I feel like this. I mean, to be honest, so many of my teachers have been white men, right? I'm married to a white man. Um. A lot of my investors are white men. And in so many ways, you know, early I modeled the behavior that I saw all around me. I think I'm a really straight shooter. And I think a lot of that was informed from where I was born. I was born in East London, which is like the hood. You know, and so um this idea of having a high moral baseline. I didn't realize, I thought that was my personality. I didn't realize that came from where I was from, that you tell the truth. You, you know, you're true to your word. If you say you're gonna do something, that you do it.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Um. And I carried all of those traits into business. And I think that so much of business is about how you behave and not what you say. It's like, how do you follow up? How do you leave people feeling? How do you, you know, kind of behave in any given transaction? It's never about like one individual moment. And so I think that what I've built uh in my reputation over the years is the ability and the freedom to be really forthright, because people know who I am. They know that I'm gonna come good on my word. They know that I am um going to do exactly what I say. Um. And that I'm not full of it.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  And so I really have kind of spent my career. Um. Not so much watching what I say, but watching what I do. Um. And that has really, really served me well. And what's so interesting, you know, now that I'm on this this kind of book tour. Um. You know, I've met three journalists that used to work for me. Three.

• 13:43Jefferson Fisher?

  No way.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  And thankfully, thankfully, they're writing really nice things about me. Because, you know, it's like how you treat people and how you leave people feeling. Uh. That has the biggest impact than any kind of single thing that you can say. And so I think that I am, I don't know, I I try to be very just who I am and I make no apologies for it. I think everybody always knew that I was very ambitious. Um. And I have been, I think, working away for the last twenty five years to make that a more attractive term for women, because it isn't used in the same way for women as it's used for men. Um. And I'd kind of like to change that a little bit.

• 14:27Jefferson Fisher?

  I think you are.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  It's like she's ambitious in like a.

• 14:32Jefferson Fisher?

  That is such a quote. Have you, did you come up with that? That the, I don't watch what I say, I watch what I do. Like that is-

• 14:38Speaker 02

  No, I didn't, but I'm taking it.

• 14:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Did you just, did you just come up with that right now?

• 14:43Speaker 02

  I just came up with that now.

• 14:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, okay. Emma, that is, that is such a killer line. Like you need your social team, all right, listen to me. I know they're listening right now.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  I'm gonna tell them, guys, Jefferson said-

• 14:57Jefferson Fisher?

  They need to put this in a quote. I don't watch what I say, I watch what I do. Like that is, that is T-shirt mug worthy.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  We're doing it, we're doing it, because you said so.

• 15:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. No, okay, I think that's, that's a great point of ambition seems to be, have certain connotations with it when it comes to men. Ambition seems to be almost a negative trait when it comes to women. And I hear you saying, I want to, I want to change, I want to change that. And I think you're a living example of that. When I hear you say, okay, to be very direct with somebody has a lot more of not just what I say, it's what they can see me do and see me follow up on. I want to know, this is me, this is where I'm living this. I get to kind of tease out how Emma thinks about things.

• 15:48Jefferson Fisher?

  So when you're saying, okay, you're walking into the office, you have a room full, you know it's crazy, your schedule's packed. When you are about to enter into, okay, I have that breath of moment, I just got out of the car, I'm about to go into the, the room. Where is your mind in that place? Is it, how, how do you, how do you balance the, the performative of I have to look the part and, and balance the personal of embodying the part?

• 16:18Speaker 02

  That is such a good question, because all of us, we come with so much baggage, right? And when you're a mom of four, like my mornings are so intense, you know, by, by 8:00 AM, I have trained, I've probably done one kid's hair, I've had half a breakfast, I've got, you know, like so much going on around me. And I get in the car, I'm on a call, and I walk in the office- And it's like, you know, the first, the first like meeting. I think the thing that I've really learned to do is to bring myself like into any situation. Like I'm not a multitasker. Like I do the thing that's in front of me and I give it everything. Like I am big on eye contact.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  If you pick up your phone in the middle of a meeting with me, like it's over. It's just over. I need like undivided attention, but in return I give undivided attention. I'm a real like in the room person. And that is, by the way, a superpower in business because when you give undivided attention to matters, they get solved quickly. Like I'm not going to have twenty seven emails. Like don't like, everybody knows. Soon as an email's past two paragraphs, I'm like, I'm dyslexic. I'm not reading that. So it's like, I want the speed. I want the connection. And I want the concentration of like the whole thing, but I'm really somebody who's very mindful. Like I know I have

• 17:44Speaker 02

  a very commanding presence. And so I know that the way I walk in has an effect on everyone. Like, you know, everyone will tell you in your office, I walk in and I'm like, morning everyone. And I'm also like, I'm a chatty Cathy. So I'm like, what did you do this weekend? How was your Easter Sunday? Like, did you do an egg? You know, it's like, I do that because I am, I like to be with the people and connect with everyone and understand where are we? And then we can get into it and then we can be like really all about the business. But I am, I think it's important to just have that level of presence and, and that is a gift when we live how we live right now.

• 18:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. I love having Cozy Earth as a sponsor because I love wearing their stuff long before they were ever part of this show. Thing I like most about Cozy Earth is just how soft everything they have is. I'm a big sweatshirt guy. I'm a big hoodie guy. I like that balance of where you can wear like a hoodie and then some shorts. I'm one of those crazy weird people. I love Cozy Earth for that exact reason. So anytime I can gift something to a friend, it's usually some kind of hoodie or sweatshirt because I want them to feel just as cozy as I do. So if you have somebody in your life where you know that they would appreciate some nice, cool weather gear that they just feel good around when they're wearing it in the house and they

• 19:10Jefferson Fisher?

  just want to chill, go to Cozy Earth. You will not regret it. Also, they not only have a 100 night sleep trial, they also have a 10 year warranty. So there's literally no risk. You can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson for up to 20% off. cozyearth.com/jefferson for up to 20% off. You will not regret it. And now, back to the episode. Do you think presence is a learned skill? Or is it something that you think you were born with in East London?

• 19:41Speaker 02

  You know, if I didn't have my wits about me, that was problematic. You needed to, you needed to be present. You can't be away with the fairies there. That's for sure. I think that it's become more attuned since I had kids because kids don't need that much. But what they do need is that all of you, you know, you can't be like half having an email, half having a conversation. And because my time is really finite with them, you know, I don't take my phone out of my bag when I come home from work because that couple of hours, that dinnertime, bedtime, story time, that needs to be like unencumbered with whatever might be going on in my day, which is usually like a disaster. I only get the problems now, you

• 20:24Speaker 02

  know, my, my whole day is a series of problems. So I do really think that that is, it's a gift that you give yourself. It's a gift that you give the people around you, but it's probably like, it's just so important and it's an underrated thing to just be like, single minded and, and, and thoughtful and like in the moment, but it is, it is a superpower.

• 20:49Jefferson Fisher?

  If we could poll your team, because I know you have a lot of people, you know, the eye of your hurricane, that is Emma, if we were to poll some of them-

• 21:01Speaker 02

  How many polling? Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds? The immediate-

• 21:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Let's say, yeah, let's say your top 20. Let's say your top 20, you know, what, what would they say in terms of communication that you excel at and some things that, yeah, you could do a little bit better?

• 21:20Speaker 02

  I mean, they would say I am clear, like, nobody is ever wondering, what's Emma thinking? It's like, I already told you, like, we're not waiting for an assessment. No, I was like, I already told you, like, and I think that that is really important. Like, I'm in constant communication. And when you run businesses, having clarity about the goals. And I think that this has to go beyond the top twenty, right? It's like, I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people and they all need to be going towards a common goal. And so when I express something and when I have a set of priorities for any given business, I need everybody working towards those. And so having that clarity is really important.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  So I think that people think I'm clear, they think I'm firm, right? I don't really suffer fools, but I think that they would say unfair. I think the majority of people would say, wow, she was extremely demanding, but I learned a lot and she was really fair. On the flip side of that, I think they'd say I'm really repetitive because I repeat myself all the time. Because that's about clarity of position, right? And I'm going to double, double, treble down. So somebody comes to me and then I don't know what thing to work on. I'm like, but wait a minute, we have the dirt and the dirt and the dirt. So drop everything else and do something that works to one of those three things. So I'm definitely a repeater of ideas and a repeater, just in the sense of like, I think it's really important for clarity.

• 22:46Jefferson Fisher?

  I like that you said, I'm very firm, but I'm also very fair. I find that that's a characteristic, you know, I, I come from a family of teachers. Yeah, my mom's a, a teacher, my sister's a teacher. And that was one thing my mom would always say, like, she was known as kind of the scary teacher at school, but she, at the end of the year, all of her students would love her because she was, they realized it was for their good, it was for their benefit, that, that firmness. And I think you, you hit on something true is that if you are not firm, you will get walked over. And how do you, like you said, you don't suffer fools.

• 23:30Jefferson Fisher?

  What's that mindset that you have when you're walking into the, the rooms that you're walking into in business to know? Like, what's, what's the secret to being firm in communication?

• 23:45Speaker 02

  I think the secret is, um, I would say that it is consistency, right? I don't think that you can be flip floppy and firm like that, that's not gonna work. You have to be really super consistent. Um, an element of fairness, so I think that you, you know, and, and I do think that the two things go hand in hand. Because people need to understand where am I in all of this, like what bit is uh my responsibility? What part is uh, what part like, and when I say fairness, because you know, again, like so little in the world is fair.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  But when you have consistency and when you're fair with people, you have, you know, I did every job, Jefferson. It's like, I really was a person that worked their way up. I started in a cupboard in fashion P R, I packed the boxes, I packed the samples, I wrote the notes. Then I got onto a desk, then you know, you're kind of like running around back show at fashion shows and like laying flooring. I worked in production, it's like I did every single thing on the way up. Which gives you this unbelievable appreciation of every person's part in a job or in a production or in a uh. Right now, you know, it's like the clothing organisations, I understand the junior merchants' job because I was there. It's like, I, I know that stuff.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Um, and I think that when you are a firm person, coming in with a level of understanding and appreciation for what every single person brings and delivers is a really good place where people feel seen. And oftentimes, um, the work isn't fair, right? It, it never feels that way, but if you feel that you're seen and you're appreciated and there is an understanding about what it is that you uniquely bring, then I think that that changes everything. And I think that I get and have gotten to where I've gotten to because people have an understanding that I wasn't given anything. That I worked for it and I appreciate them and I have an understanding of them.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  Um, a- and, and in that way, I think people work extremely hard for me and towards the things that I need because they feel that intrinsically.

• 26:04Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm going to come back to this part that we talked about specifically on how to speak with directness, being firm, having ambition as a woman. Again, because these are things that I can't, you know, I can't express nearly as well as somebody else can. And so, you know, my question is like, when you see all these, like you've been on Shark Tank, when you've seen all these men, okay, saying this is how to do business, this is how to do it. And you come in here going, yeah, I can do it just as well and, and be able to spin

• 26:44Jefferson Fisher?

  five plates at the same time. What, what do, what do you want to say to those men in the moment? What are they, what are we, you know, missing when it comes to, is there like an unlock to say this is a special way? Or is, let me ask, I'm gonna, I'm talking right now because I, I find the subject, I desperately desire to be able to help people and especially women speak with more directness. And there's sometimes I feel like I miss the point. And it's because I haven't been where they've been and I haven't stood where

• 27:26Jefferson Fisher?

  they stood. And that sometimes makes me feel helpless. And so when you give advice to women, what do you tell them? What am I missing?

• 27:37Speaker 02

  No, well, first of all, the idea that you even think about it like that, I think is such an excellent starting point. And what I wrote about in the book, in Start With Yourself, is this idea of not allowing your emotions to do your decision making. And I think for a lot of women, that is like a default, right? We are people pleasers. We have a lot of fear connected to how we might be perceived or, or valued. We have a lot of guilt. Right, like mum guilt is an actual real thing.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  And so in this book, so much of what I talk about is how emotions will kind of dictate your decision making. And I think that what I wanted to be able to convey is this idea that oftentimes women have been socially conditioned to avoid the exact behaviours that create wealth, that create visibility, that create leadership opportunities. And men don't have quite the same um kind of difficulties uh in expressing themselves or in managing their emotions, um which doesn't impede their decision making in the same way.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  And so what I wanted to do was kind of create a book that really dismantled a lot of the lies that we've been sold about this stuff. This is supposed to be like a wake up call for ambitious women, because if you want power and you want money and you want a career and you want a family and you want all of those things, you're not going to get that kind of hiding behind soft ambition. We have to have audacity. We have to get okay with the fact that there's going to be some discomfort, that that discomfort might be from somebody else around you. Um and and Jefferson, what is important right now and what I want to be clear about, and men can agree with this as well as women, but I think that we are desperate for more women in positions of power right now, not just in business, but

• 29:44Speaker 02

  in our economies, in our governments, politically. Um it's really clear to me. And I think there is just a set of rules that exist in the culture that mean that um women fear, and they're deeply ingrained thoughts, right, like deeply ingrained thoughts that exist. And so what I wanted to do was be um, you know, a model for what is possible, because I really believe like you can't be what you don't see. And if we're constantly put this kind of idea of like to be a good woman, there are all of these things that you have to do, that's really going to hold women back. So um. What I tried to do was just have a level of honesty about what it takes and what in our

• 30:27Speaker 02

  own behavior can change and what in our own style of communication about the things that we really want has to change in order to to kind of shift the mentality like really forward. Like that's what I really care about right now.

• 30:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Before we keep going, I want to talk to you about Element. I know that in my busy lifestyle, there's something that has to do with hydration that I cannot seem sometimes to get a hold of, of just drinking enough water. My body will just go, coffee? You should have coffee. And my body also says, but please give me water. And so one solution, big solution that we've had in my family is Element, L M N T. Element provides electrolytes. It's like this little packet, they come in different ways, but this one that I like to have is just a little salt packet that you rip out and you pour it into your water. I do about half, so it's not too salty. I like the lemonade flavor and I love it anytime after a workout, during a workout, after a run, when I'm on the go, I like because it's just really no mess.

• 31:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Now, my kids, they love it. They call it salty water. They really like the seltzer version. I'm not a carbonation fan, but they are. And so they love it every time that they get it. In fact, they treat it as almost like a dessert. So they will have dinner and then my son will beg for salty water. And so we let him have probably about half of it because he doesn't need to drink too much before he goes to bed, obviously. And so that's how we love Element. It is just made for people that are on a mission, just like you and just like me. And they're offering my listeners a free sample pack with any order. You can head on over to drinklmnt.com/jefferson and try it risk free today. That's Element, smart hydration for people going places. And now back to the episode.

• 32:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Now, let me tell you, Emma, you did it, okay? All that you wanted to do with this book, you did it. What I really appreciate that you do in your book, and I have it in my hands right now, is you have these old thoughts and the new thoughts, which I thought was great. It is so good. Not only do we get a baseline of where you've come from, what all you've been through, what you do with your husband and your kids and the life and the balance and everything, is really how you see things and what you do. What I think is so well done is you will lay out these old thoughts. And we all know what that is, these old scripts in our head of,

• 32:56Jefferson Fisher?

  "I'm not going to be enough, I have to do this. The only way to achieve X is I have to go through Z and Y." And then you come up with these new thoughts, and you have these new thoughts right after it, after you kind of give the lesson. And the new thought is what turns the old script on its head. You say, "You don't have to do that." And you know what? I'm a living example of that. And so many of your lessons, when it comes to career, when it comes to family, when it comes to life balance, it is a series of new scripts and new thoughts that I think are excellent. Can I share with you one of my favorite?

• 33:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, tell me.

• 33:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, okay. So this is one of the ones you have in career. And this is one that hit me, is the old thought is, "You're owed mentorship and opportunity." And so I thought, like, okay, that's... Boy, that's true in my life of times where, at least in the legal profession, you're... It's a sense of you're owed certain things. And that can feel that way, like, people will go, "Oh, I'm not gonna chase this because nobody's doing it for me. I guess nobody wants to help me. It's just all me, and I'm not gonna waste the time." And the new thought that you have, after you talk about the story, is,

• 34:20Jefferson Fisher?

  "You are the creator of your own career, and the responsibility for it is yours too." And I thought, "Okay, Emma, all right, Emma, that was good." Like, it was so good of like, hey, nobody else is going to do that. And I think a lot of that, and I want to go into this real quick, is... You are the oldest, I believe, of four.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, and you had a single mother.

• 34:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, and I'm curious, you know, how much of the mindset that you have, the title of the book has to do with that girl who didn't finish high school, went to work, is, was the, I'm the oldest of four, right?

• 35:04Speaker 02

  You are?

• 35:04Jefferson Fisher?

  That, that, yeah, I'm the oldest of four, yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 35:07Jefferson Fisher?

  This is why we're kindred souls.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  This is it, these two big.

• 35:10Jefferson Fisher?

  That's right, these old souls, right, that you didn't really have, like me, like we,

• 35:17Jefferson Fisher?

  we didn't really have, you didn't really have a childhood, you know, there's gaps of your life that you had to be the, the little parent, the little spouse, you had to take on opportunity, you had to take on things, you had to forego other enjoyment for the work that was ahead. And I find a lot of these principles that you teach are, you know, lessons that are straight out of your, your life and how you do things now.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  I think that you're completely right about that, and you know, it's so interesting, because so many people have asked me that question, oh my God, what was it like? You know, I never for one second felt sorry for myself as a kid. Like, I never imagined like that this thing was put upon me, because where I come from, like, you just helped your mom, like, what are you gonna do? You know, it's like, yeah, I could make, you know, a dinner for six people when I was 12, but that's been a really useful skill. I could clean the house, I could, you know, do a parent teacher conference at 12 years old. You know, I was raised in a way where there was no other choice. And so there's a maturity level that comes with that.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  There's a lot of, you know, less, I guess, less forgiving and, and less.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  Uh, kind of great things that come out of that. But at the end of the day, it was a net positive for me because by the time I was in the workplace, which again was very young because I dropped out of high school. I had such a bar, like I knew how to get things done. I was such a self-starter because nobody ever woke me up for, you know, school. I had to wake everybody else up and make packed lunches and iron school shirts and get three kids out of the house. Sometimes I would just go home and watch Oprah. I wouldn't even bother. Um, but you know, for me, it was not an imposition. It was like, I got a head start in life because this was my reality.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  And um, when I got into the workplace, I was like, wow, I am so capable. I'm so bloody capable. And so I think that when you take, you know, and I think about this with my own kids, you know, because I do have four. And nobody, they, they have everything done for them. Um. And, and somehow it kind of robs you from like, like who you're gonna be, you know, and I'm like trying to, I'm not trying to manufacture hardships for my kids, but sometimes I think I should do, you know, like they would be so much more capable. But I think it's a huge part of who I am and why I have done what I did because there was, there was no one, uh, there was no one out there coming to get me. I took full responsibility for myself. And at the end of the day, this book is about

• 38:01Speaker 02

  self-leadership. It's about self-responsibility. And this really great stuff that is out there when you suddenly have that realisation, like there was no guy coming to rescue me. There was no boss, there was no mentor. I learned from Oprah. I learned from people in the magazines. I learned from like the bosses at my work experience. And, and when I say learned, like, I would just copy those people. That's what I did. Like Oprah would say something good, I would write it down and I would copy it. For years I sat um, with my boss like behind me so she could see my screen. And that was the early days of online shopping and everyone in the office was like,

• 38:42Speaker 02

  how annoying is it that you sit in front of this woman because you can't do your online shopping? And I was like, It's amazing. I write down everything this woman says. And when she has a good line, I use it on my new business calls. And it was like, you know, no one was coming to mentor me. And so to me, especially now that I get asked, like, could you mentor me? And I do, I look up, like so many of my staff and so many women, I do a call every day on the way to the office, eight o'clock. I get on the phone, I speak to somebody for half an hour. Um, but you can't wait for that stuff, right? You can't let it stop you. And what I wanted to make sure people understood is we have to make sure that our biggest enemy is not living in our own head.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  You know, like, I have this friend and I quote her in the book, Daven Fustenberg, and she says, "The most important relationship you'll ever have is the relationship you have with yourself." Like, I know I can talk myself into or out of anything. And so when it comes to like, looking for people to help me, I'm like, well, I better be helping myself first. Cause if one of these magical people ever does come to help me, I want to be ready. And it just turns out that that wasn't my experience. And so it's like, I feel like I have gifted myself, myself, my whole life, right? It's like, I was the best I had. So it's like, I just had to work with that because there was nothing else. And I feel like that's not a bad place. There's not a bad thing.

• 40:04Jefferson Fisher?

  No, not a bad thing at all. No, I, I, when I read that you were the oldest of four, I was like, okay, a lot of this is making sense here. Yeah, I think anybody who's the oldest child, you kind of have that old soul mentality of, you know, your parents didn't have to, I mean, they didn't have to ask me to do anything. You just did it. You're very different from the youngest that, that we have. So yeah, it, I, I, um, I relate to that. And what I find is so instructive to me and, and everyone is that if you think that opportunities

• 40:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Should be just put on your plate. You're just, that's the wrong thinking.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  It's the wrong thinking.

• 40:51Jefferson Fisher?

  You have to grab your own plate and start finding places that are serving food. Like you have, you have to go and there's a sense of hunger, I think that you have to have.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  There's a sense of hunger. Listen, you, you might need to go out and kill an animal. Like, I don't know where you can't, like, where you came from. There might not be any shops open. There might not, you know, it's like, you've got to do what you've got to do. But, you know, there's something amazing about doing, like, making the best of yourself. You know, there's something incredible when you go, God, like, I came from here and now this is what life looks like. Like, that's incredible. It just takes such a long time. And I feel like, you know, again, I speak about this so much in the book because I feel like social media has kind of conditioned us into this idea that, you know, you can listen your way to success, that, that somehow you can consume your way to success.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  And I'm like, no, you can't. You've got to work. You don't have any choice. You know, you've got to like do something that you kind of don't like and get pretty good at it to be given an opportunity, to do something that you like a little bit more and then eventually something that you really love. But my experience is that it's always been that way. It's always been incremental. It's always been a little bit. And I've got as much out of it as I've been willing to give. But there's never been a moment where someone's gone like, here you go, lucky girl, you know, here's something that you didn't work for. And you've got to, you've got to put the work in. It's just that simple. Ambition has to find you working.

• 42:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Before we keep going, I'm going to take a moment to tell you about timeline. Now, when we talk about healthy aging, we typically like to think about diet, exercise, sleep, and those things matter. They really do. But how you feel as you get older also depends on something deeper. That's right. We're talking about your cellular energy. Every bit of energy your body has comes from your mitochondria. Remember that? The powerhouse of the cell? Well, it's, it's a real thing still. The tiny power plants inside of your cells and as we age. Those don't work as efficiently. So more of them become damaged. Your energy drops, recovery slows down, and you just don't feel as strong or resilient as you do. That's why I started taking Mitopure from Timeline. It supports something called mitophagy,

• 43:07Jefferson Fisher?

  which is your body's natural response and process for clearing out damaged mitochondria so your cells can produce energy more efficiently. So it's like saying this, if you want more energy, your cells need more energy. And that's what Timeline does. Timeline has spent over 15 years researching mitochondrial health and in human clinical studies, people saw improvements in muscle strength and energy without changing their routine. For me, it's all about staying strong, staying sharp, and feeling like myself as, yeah, I get a little bit older and keeping my hair as much as I possibly can right now. Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price. Mitopure starts now at $79 when you go to timeline.com/jefferson.

• 43:49Jefferson Fisher?

  That's timeline.com/jefferson to learn more. And now, back to the episode. Is there a thought that has recurred in your own mind of whether it said, "You don't deserve this"? It just, "Right place, right time"? "You didn't do this on your own"? "You had all the help in the world"? Like, these, I'm curious of what kind, what are the negative hardship thoughts that you, or if there are any, you know, what are the thoughts that you have to fight against? Because they're, they're always, they're always there.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I'm obsessed with comedy and I've watched like every Chris Rock special, like back to front, I could recite them for you. But one that he always talks about is like, at some point, he gets like this house, this like beautiful dream house. And he says, "His house is so good that he keeps a bag packed" because he can't even imagine that like this would be his life, like that this is like his and he owns it. And I kind of like feel like that so much. I interviewed Cardi B on my podcast last week and Cardi, like to me, I was like, I don't know that I have much in common with Cardi B. I was like, "Oh", Feeling of like never wanting to be poor again, like the first word she said to me, I was like, we are the same.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Me and Cardi B, we're the same person. Um, but that is something that I think for so long haunted me. This idea that what I'd worked for could be taken away or would be taken away and I would be poor again. And and not even like just poor, but without the ability to make my own decisions and to decide like what I do. And so that is something that I feel like I it's always going to be with me. I am always keeping the proverbial bag packed. Because I wake up in this beautiful room in Bel Air and I'm like, that can't, that can't be my life, like it just cannot. There's a little piece of that that I don't want to get rid of. There's a piece of that that I am like,

• 45:53Speaker 02

  kind of keeps me hungry. It keeps me like thinking like, what's next, what's next? Don't rest on your laurels. Don't get lazy. There's also a piece of that that goes, there's thousands of hundreds of thousands and millions of kids like me. And so how could you be useful? And actually take what it is that you've learned and you've done and make sure that other people that sort of naturally have less opportunity could maybe have more because I know that I can pinpoint all the moments of of lift that happened. And it wasn't always because I was outmaneuvering everyone, like some stuff, just like, you know, the stars aligned. Um, but I guess that that the answer to your question is that that is always in the back of my mind and it somewhat fuels me.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  I think that I've got out of the mentality now that it can all be gone tomorrow. But um, I'd be lying if I said that that wasn't always there.

• 46:48Jefferson Fisher?

  Like a scarcity type mindset, like you, you're always, you never know when it's going to stop. So you gotta keep going.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there is a, there is, listen, I talk about scarcity a lot in the book because I never envisaged that because I have something more that you're going to get less, right? And I think that is a very female thing. Um, that's not how I think at all. I don't, I don't believe in that, but I do have that feeling for me. You know, I, when I met my husband, I said to him, I don't go back in lifestyle. Like, this is where we are now. I'm only going one way, it's going forward. So you have to come with me, or that this is not gonna work. Um, and thankfully, he was up for that challenge, that romantic challenge that I gave him. Um, but that is, that is really important to me. Like, it's like, I have been very purposeful about the life that I built.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  And I think it's my job to keep me moving forward, to always be in motion and to never kind of rest and imagine it's done. I never, I will never feel like that.

• 47:48Jefferson Fisher?

  I know that in my own world, you know, I, I, we all do. And I know you talk about in your book about imposter syndrome and that sometimes people, especially women, can almost out-talk themselves out of an opportunity. Is that something that you find often?

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I see it around me often. You know, I never had, and this is hard for people to understand, I never had imposter syndrome. And it was literally down to my mum. My mum is like such a fierce lady. You know, she is like five foot nothing. She's like white and blonde. And she has these like daughters that are like, you know, black with like big curly hair. And my mum was fierce. She was like, you are gonna need to learn to look after yourself. And you have to know, Emma, that you're not better than anyone else, but nor is anyone better than you. And I swear to God, Jefferson, I grew up my whole life thinking exactly that.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  I was like, nobody's better than me. Like, literally, you could go to Eton or to Harvard, but you're not better than me. And I really imagined that. Like, I, I was, I took it in. And so in my head, I thought, if I work really hard and if I throw everything that I've got at it, I can be as successful as anybody else. But that was my starting point. You know, my mum gave me that. And because I've done a lot of stuff, because I've had a lot of businesses that worked, but I've also had a lot of failures, which I talk about in the book. I got more confident. I, I got the ability to lose something. To not be good at it, to start a business to fail and for that not to be like,

• 49:28Speaker 02

  there's something wrong with me. I was like, that situation didn't work out. That was the wrong set of circumstances. I made this mistake, but I never internalized it and was like, I'm not right for it. So I've always had this kind of like distance to what it is that I'm doing and I never thought that anything was about me. I was just like, that was, that was that, you know? And, and I want to impart that on as many women as I can because imposter syndrome is fake. It's not real. It's made up. It's in your mind. And so you have to create the conditions and change the way that you think about what is possible for you.

• 50:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Emma, what are thoughts that you live by that other people, even maybe lis- listening or reading your book, might think are, are radical? Are there things that you live by that other people go, whoa, this is something that is definitely against the, the grain uh of what we've been told?

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh gosh. Okay. This is going to be the popular part for me in the podcast. This is where everyone falls in love with me, Jefferson. Okay, I've got it. Okay. Well, um, I think that work-life balance is a myth and we all know that. I think that anyone who's been listening to me knows that. I think it's the wrong goal, right? Like I, I have seen in my life and because I believe that life and work and it all comes in seasons, there is a moment to be all in, to be pedal to the metal and to go for what it is that you want with no, you know, no fucks given, like no, like you're just gonna go in. And there is a time when, you know, like, uh, right after you have a baby, for example,

• 51:10Speaker 02

  when you don't have a choice to do that. You have to like lean out a little bit and you have to take care of your body and take care of the baby and find a new pace for yourself. But I think that this idea that we've created in culture, that somehow there's some mythical balance that exists and until you've found it, nothing's going to work out for your life. That's BS. Like you need, like to have a great career and a great business, like. You need proximity, you need visibility, you can't like, you don't get good over a Zoom call. Like, you need to be in the room. If you're not like around me, you're not gonna see how I move. You're not gonna understand like the pace of what we're trying to do, what the like company is all about. So I think that that is something in culture right now that we've just got to specifically for women.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Like, stop looking for balance. Look for the things that you want and go after that and understand like the timing of your life. I also think the timing of your life is a really important one and something I think about, like this idea. That, you know, women have been told just like wait and wait and wait to have a child, like. There is no perfect time, but there is a biological reality, right? I'm not advocating for teen pregnancy, but I'm also saying waiting until you're thirty nine years old probably isn't a good idea. So the idea that, you know, it's like you've got to find this like mystical partner that arrives on a white horse and solves all your problems. I'm like, find someone that you love and have a baby, like maybe slightly earlier than what you've been told.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  It won't be the end of your life. It's okay. Like, it's just, it's okay. And I think that what happened is that like people got so scared because modern parenting has gone bananas. Like parenting didn't get more difficult, but the expectations got difficult. And that's why in this book I talk so much about having a vision for yourself, not vision boarding, not manifestation. Like, how is it that I wanna live? What is important to me? What are my principles and the stuff that I care about? Cause then you can measure yourself up against that as opposed to like some chick that you saw on social that like. Cut her kids' sandwiches into stars, like that's not important. What's important is like, what's important to you?

• 53:17Speaker 02

  And it's different for you than it is for me. And so what I like to do is set my own standards. I don't like to be impacted by all of the noise that is like coming in and around me. I like to say, this is important to me and these are my goals as a parent and these are my goals as a wife. And these are my goals as a businesswoman and I'm gonna go after that without apology. Like, that's what I think is important and tune out all the noise because you know what's insane? Like, nobody's watching you. Nobody cares about you as much as you care about you. So you can pretty much like just do your thing and not be worried about it because people don't have time. They literally don't have time.

• 53:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Absolutely no notes. I can tell you I have no notes off that, Emma. Start with yourself, a new vision for work and life, Emigreed. This is so, so good. I am honored to be able to support it. I want everybody to read it and I'll be sending, make sure that everybody in my community knows how important this book is. Emma, thank you so much for your time.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  Oh, Jefferson, thank you. You're a diamond. This was so lovely.

• 54:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Please tell your family hi from me and until the next podcast.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  Saying to yours from me, take care, my love.

• 54:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Take care.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  Thank you. Bye.

• 54:32Speaker 03

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