Shalane Flanagan & Elyse Kopecky: How To Run Fast, Eat Slow And Love The Journey

There are people that run. There are others who run fast. But few people on Earth run like the remarkable Shalane Flanagan. Over the course of her distinguished 16-year professional career, Shalane has made 4 consecutive Olympic teams, won an Olympic medal and set a variety of American records across a wide array of distances on both the track and the road. To put her excellence in perspective, consider this: in 2010, she finished second at the prestigious New York City marathon — her very first 26.2 ever — clocking the best finish by an American female at that race in 20 years. She's also run the fastest time ever by an American woman at the Boston Marathon and in 2014 set her personal best in Berlin with a blazing 2:21.14, the second-fastest time ever by an American woman. But what’s truly unique about this assassin in compression socks is the extraordinary extent to which Shalane has distinguished herself across a multitude of distances & disciplines. On dirt, she's won collegiate national championships in cross-country. On the track, she's set American records at both the 3000 & 5000 meter distances. And on the road she's broken American records in both 10K & 15K and achieved two Olympic marathon berths, including her recent 6th place showing in Rio. Beyond her extraordinary accomplishments and amidst all her obligations as the world's greatest running polymorph, Shalane finds herself today embarking on a new chapter — as a foster parent to twin teenage girls along with her husband Steve Edwards (a badass runner in his own right). And yet somehow, she still mustered the time to write a cookbook with her lifelong friend Elyse Kopecky – a former college cross-country teammate who left a career in digital marketing at Nike to become a chef, food writer, nutrition educator, and mom after studying culinary arts in New York and abroad. The result of Shalane and Elyse's beautiful collaborative partnership is the newly minted New York Times' bestselling Run Fast Eat Slow*. Part culinary primer and part lifestyle manifesto, it's a beautiful whole foods, flavor-forward cookbook packed with nourishing and delicious recipes, nutritional wisdom and inspiring stories from two accomplished women you can't help but love. Women who believe and prove that you can be healthy and perform at your peak without counting calories, obsessing over protein, or restricting yourself to diets that do more harm than good. As a quick aside to all my fellow passionate vegan friends (I love you), a disclaimer: Run Fast Eat Slow is not a 100% plant-based cookbook. Notwithstanding, the cookbook does contain plenty of great plant-based dishes as well as heaps of wisdom relative to cultivating a more conscious and deliberate relationship with the food we source, prepare and consume — subjects I think we can all get behind, irrespective of specific dietary preferences. In this conversation, Shalane and Elyse impart loads of practical, experience-based advice, including: Shalane’s specific training protocols, race day rituals, fueling strategies (her take on supplements might surprise you), recovery routines, mindset tactics and some of the common mistakes most runners make. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  I knew that I loved running when we had a physical fitness test, and we got to run against all the kids in the school, and I beat everyone, including the boys. And I thought, this is the sport for me.

• 1:17Rich Roll?

  How old were you?

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know, maybe like 11 or 12 or something like that. And I just felt a lot of self-confidence associated with that. I felt, loved pushing my body, so it was just one of those kind of moments that I distinctly remember thinking that I really love running.

• 1:34Rich Roll?

  That's four-time Olympian Shalane Flanagan, who joins Elise Kopecky this week on the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:56Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody. How you guys doing? What's going on? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, the show where I go long form with some of the most interesting, thought provoking, and inspiring thought leaders and positive change makers all across the globe. And the idea behind these conversations is to extract, to elucidate the wisdom, the experience, the practices, the knowledge, the approaches of these remarkable people as a tool to help you and to help me unlock our collective best, most authentic selves. So, thank you so much for tuning in today, for sharing the show with your friends and on social media, for reviewing the show on iTunes, very important. Thank you very much to everybody who's done that. And of course, to subscribing to the show on iTunes.

• 2:39Rich Roll?

  I know that's a pain, but if you haven't done that, maybe take a moment to do that. It helps us out a lot. And of course, for always using the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. If you happen to be inspired to support the mission even a little bit further, now you can donate on Patreon. We have a Patreon page. You can find that at patreon.com/richroll. But first, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible.

• 3:10Rich Roll?

  Okay, today's show. I had so much fun with this conversation with the great track and field athlete, roadrunner, and marathoner, Shalane Flanagan, and her bestie, Elise Kopecchi, with whom she co-wrote this great new cookbook. It's called Run Fast, Eat Slow. Just came out and it quickly shot to the top of the New York Times Bestseller list. Perhaps you've heard of it, perhaps you've seen it. But for those that don't know, Shalane is quite the remarkable athlete. Over the course of her distinguished 16-year professional career, she's made four consecutive Olympic teams, she's won an Olympic medal, and set a variety of American records at a myriad of distances on both the track and the road.

• 3:53Rich Roll?

  But to put her excellence in perspective, consider this. In 2010, she finished second at the New York City Marathon. Now, not only was this her very first marathon, imagine- It was the best finish by an American female at that race in 20 years. She also ran the fastest time ever by an American woman at the 2014 Boston Marathon, completing that race in 22202, and that is a race that she is very intent on winning one day. At the 2014 Berlin Marathon, Shalane ran a personal best, 22114. That is so fast. And the second fastest time ever by an American woman.

• 4:34Rich Roll?

  Beyond the longevity of her incredible career, I think what's really unique and highly unusual about Shalane is that she has really distinguished herself at a wide variety of distances and disciplines. Everything from American records on the track at 3,000 and 5,000 meters, to American records on the road at both the 10K and 15K distances, all the way up to two Olympic marathon berths, including sixth place in Rio, from which she just returned. And in addition to her rigorous training schedule, which typically entails about 100 to 120 miles a week of running, plus cross-training, her and her husband recently became foster parents to twin teenage girls. So that's really cool.

• 5:19Rich Roll?

  And somehow amidst all of this, she found the time to write a cookbook with her lifelong friend Elise, who is a former cross-country teammate of hers from UNC, who left a career in digital marketing at Nike to study culinary arts both abroad and in New York City, and ultimately became a chef, a food writer, a nutrition educator, and a mom. So their new book is called Run Fast, Eat Slow, and it's really a beautiful collaborative manifestation of their friendship and their collective experience. Now, as you know, I'm a plant-based guy, and this is not a 100% plant-based cookbook. But notwithstanding, there's a lot to really love here.

• 6:01Rich Roll?

  The cookbook does contain plenty of really great plant-based dishes, and there's a lot of wisdom in it about our relationship to food, the idea of being more connected to the food we eat and where it comes from, a prioritization of Slowing down to really enjoy the food that we source, prepare, and consume. And a focus away from deprivation and eating disorder inducing fad diets that are woefully pushed on women, and instead on something they call indulgent nourishment, leveraging nutrient density as fuel for health and performance, as well as the importance of food as this vehicle for cultivating more community and intimacy with those you care about.

• 6:41Rich Roll?

  So, we cover a lot of practical advice in this conversation, including Shalane's training regimens, her daily race day rituals, fueling and nutrition strategies, recovery routines, and mindset tactics, as well as some of the common mistakes that most runners make. But between the lines, this is a conversation about what it takes to excel at the very highest echelon of elite athletics. It's about how to maintain enthusiasm, focus, and intensity in the face of extremely high stakes and acute adversity. It's about fueling for performance and recovery, and it's about empowering people to take better control of their nutrition and health.

• 7:23Rich Roll?

  So, without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with Shalane Flanagan and Elise Kopec. All right. So, nice to be here with you guys today.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you.

• 7:38Rich Roll?

  Thanks so much for taking the time and opening up your beautiful home. It's so beautiful up here in the hills.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, we got a pretty ridiculous view on a clear day of hood and up into Washington and the river and downtown Portland, and feel pretty lucky to live here.

• 7:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's great. I've been to Portland several times, but I've never been in this section. It's fantastic. And you back right up to a park, right? I would imagine there's a ton of trails that go right, basically, out your front door.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you just drop down from my house, one of my favorite three and a half mile road loops is there, and I train on it pretty consistently. It's nice and hilly. It reminds me of kind of like the New York City Marathon in Boston, so a great training ground. And then, if you drop off of the road, there's a main trail system that can loop you all over through Portland. Really hilly, though.

• 8:30Rich Roll?

  Really nice. Yeah, I went this morning, I ran, I'm staying downtown, but then I ran through downtown up to... 23rd Avenue and then took a left on Thurman.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 8:41Rich Roll?

  And then went all the way up to that trailhead and ran, I don't know what that park is called up there.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Up in the Forest Park.

• 8:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was like so lush and green.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:50Rich Roll?

  Coming from Los Angeles where everything is just dry and brown.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  You can just feel like the trees exuding all this like oxygen and it feels very oxygenated in there.

• 8:58Rich Roll?

  Yes. I felt really great. I felt like I could go, like, yeah, it was like sort of after coming down from training at altitude or something like that.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:06Rich Roll?

  Really great. Well, congratulations on a fantastic Rio, an amazing season and of course, the smash success, early success of the book. It's got to feel really good. Are you enjoying your post Rio experience?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  I am. I was just describing to someone the other day that these last, probably the last month has probably been a culmination and highlight of my life. Um, I had, you know, the culmination of making my fourth Olympic team, finishing sixth in the world at the Olympics and leading Team USA to the best finish ever for the women in the marathon. And then having our book come out only a few days prior, Run Fast Eat Slow came out on August 9th.

• 9:51Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  And then one week later, we made the New York Times Bestseller List.

• 9:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  So it was a pretty good few weeks there.

• 9:58Rich Roll?

  How are you going to live up to this year?

• 10:00Speaker 01

  I don't know. Yeah.

• 10:01Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 10:01Speaker 01

  And then on top of it, we, um, my husband and I are foster parents to two lovely girls who will be living with us for the year. So it's just been some really good, positive changes and just kind of culmination of like a lot of work.

• 10:14Rich Roll?

  That's a lot of amazing stuff in a very short period of time.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:17Rich Roll?

  You know, it's funny, we were talking, we were chatting a little bit before the podcast about you becoming foster parents and as I was sort of, you know, preparing for the podcast and scrolling through your Instagram and Twitter and noticing what seemed to be in addition to your family, but not being quite sure exactly what was going on. So it's very cool. You've, you've provided a home for two, what are they, high school senior girls?

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, the two twins, high school seniors.

• 10:42Rich Roll?

  Oh, they're twins.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're twins. Yep. And, um, I can tell them apart very easily. Easily now, but initially just looking at pictures of them before I even met them. I was like, oh, this may be a little troublesome. They're going to be playing some tricks on me. But no, they're very distinct personalities and just awesome addition to our family. It's been really smooth. But yeah, I haven't, I guess, explained fully what was going on. But yeah, we decided to become foster parents for the year and help them transition to whatever their goals and their passions are for next year.

• 11:11Rich Roll?

  That's very cool.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 11:13Rich Roll?

  And it's also a stroke of marketing genius to release the cookbook right during Rio, right? Did it come out like basically contemporaneously with you running the marathon?

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, originally, actually, I think our pub date was September 6th, but we moved it up about a month. Rodale and our just amazing team that we have there just decided that we, they thought it would be a better fit. Because originally I had said, well, you know, I've got to like focus. If I make the Olympics, I don't want any distractions. And I said, you know, I want to be able to do all the PR and everything that's required to really give some oomph behind the book. And I felt like if it came out too close to the race, I wouldn't be able to do anything. But it didn't really matter, I guess. And so we had it come out just a few days before my race. And as soon as I got back from Rio, actually, I literally, Elise and I left straight. Well, I left straight from Rio, went to New York City, and we were on Good Morning America, which kind of kickstarted the whole thing.

• 12:06Rich Roll?

  Right, right. That's crazy. Well, say hi, Elise. She's sitting right to your left here.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Hi, thanks so much for coming all the way to Portland.

• 12:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, thanks for, thanks for having me. You guys have a really cool, interesting relationship. Tell me, you know, how you guys first got together and where this idea for this cookbook came about.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  So Shalane and I have known each other for 16 years. We were college roommates and teammates. So we go way back and luckily both had the chance to move west to Portland right after graduating. And Shalane was running for Nike and I was working in a, sitting in a cubicle, working for Nike, working the grind and got to stay in, stay in touch over the years and follow her career through my work on the Nike running team. And then after I moved back, did a career change and went to culinary nutrition school, moved back to Portland, Shalane and I reunited and shared our passion over a home-cooked meal for helping other athletes discover ways they could run stronger and healthier and happier through better nutrition.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  And the idea for the cookbook was born.

• 13:08Rich Roll?

  What made you decide to, were you doing marketing at Nike?

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I worked in, I worked in digital marketing for Nike Running for almost 10 years.

• 13:18Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So why the career change?

• 13:20Speaker 02

  I had the chance-

• 13:21Rich Roll?

  That sounds like a pretty cool job.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  It was a great job for, um, in my twenties, right out of school, you know, I got to travel a lot and meet a lot of athletes and be involved in seeing Shalane's career, um, go, take off. I was there when she ran her first marathon in New York. I was there for all of her Olympic trials. Um, I was there at, for, for work, but got to cheer her on as a friend. Um, so it was a amazing job. Then, um, we moved abroad to Switzerland and I switched, um, to work for a video game company, not to be named, and video games are not my thing. I told them in my job interview, I had never played a video game in my life, but I got the job.

• 13:57Rich Roll?

  He's still hard on you?

• 13:58Speaker 02

  Um, I got the job.

• 13:59Rich Roll?

  You must be really good at what you do.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Um, it was, it was a blessing in disguise because during my time living in Switzerland, I was so inspired by the food culture there, by the incredible access to amazing ingredients and foods that I had learned in our country to label as unhealthy were really, um, healthy and nourishing and lots of good fats over there. And that was, that transformed my health as an athlete and as a soon to be mom. And that inspired me to come back to the U S and learn more and help other, um, young athletes.

• 14:32Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. So you went to school to study culinary arts or nutrition?

• 14:36Speaker 02

  A culinary nutrition school. Um, it's the Natural Gourmet Institute in New York City. It's one of the oldest culinary schools that's dedicated to nutrition. So you spend half the time in the classroom studying nutrition and the other half the time in the kitchen cooking. So it's a great hands-on approach to nutrition. I'm not, um, someone who's going to like prescribe pills or supplements. I'm going to prescribe getting, inspiring people to get into the kitchen.

• 14:58Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. I've never heard of a school that combines both of those. I mean, it makes perfect sense, right? It should be that way.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have a lot of nutritionists and registered dietitians come up to me and say like, I know all this information about nutrition, but I don't know how to cook. So it is a really good, it was a, the best, perfect program for what I wanted to do.

• 15:16Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And did you start preparing meals for Shalane? Or where did the idea of collaborating on a book together come from?

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Well, when she just had graduated from the Culinary Institute, she came over and brought over this ridiculous salad and-

• 15:30Speaker 01

  It's a salad that I remember like dreaming about afterwards and the salad dressing just like won me over. Um, I called it my crack salad dressing. It was addicting. And from then on, I thought, oh my gosh, Elise is really on to something like this is hearty and delicious and I feel like satisfied um, after having had the meal and I realized like she had a gift. She had this knowledge now and knew how to put it together in real terms and like attainable. Like I knew how, she taught me the recipe and that night is when I realized that we had to share this information that she had.

• 16:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the other added aspect of it, of course, is that you have a background as an athlete too, right, Elise? So you have the athletic background, the athletic under, like no, understanding like how to fuel the athletic body, plus the nutrition background and knowing how to cook, right? It's great.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got my butt kicked every day in practice by Shalane in college. So I, it was a struggle for me to keep up with her. I wish I had known the nutrition knowledge. Um, I had suffered from a lot of injuries in college due to poor nutrition and if I had known everything back then that we know now, I know I would have run as a much stronger young athlete.

• 16:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so true. Uh, you know, on that tip, it's really interesting, you know, I'm keen to hear like your thoughts about nutrition specifically with female athletes because there is this, you know, sort of epidemic of eating disorders that plague so many people and not that men are immune from it. There's lots of men out there that suffer from this as well, but obviously it's much more profound and prolific amongst female athletes. Like, did either you guys struggle with that or, you know, what is your perspective on, on that, you know, maybe specifically with track and field and, and what you've observed over the years?

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so from my perspective, I was pretty naive to the subject. Um, but once we got into college, Elise and I had a couple teammates who suffered from anorexia and We didn't understand it and we didn't understand why sometimes the adults weren't stepping in and how to deal with it and I think it created a lot of stress and division on our team, but we just didn't know how to help it. And so I think for me, that's been a really big part of it, like an inspiration to, for our book, behind the book for me and motivation to get this book out there because I hope it becomes basically a bible. And college coaches, if they're uncomfortable talking about this, they can say, hey, I think

• 17:59Speaker 01

  you guys as a team should sit down and read this book because it has beyond just the recipes, a message in it and that's to have a healthy relationship with your food. And so that's where it kind of started for me. But then as a professional athlete, I saw the correlation of being light and lean and great performances and there's no denying that that is a component of what I do. And I think as I got out of college, I wasn't sure how to fuel myself and also attain the kind of racing weight that I needed to attain. And so I think I struggled and maybe at times didn't have the greatest relationship with my food because I saw it as, you know, I had to fulfill this job and I had to do a

• 18:43Speaker 01

  good job and I don't think I was feeling the way I should have. Nothing to the point of getting, being debilitating. I never got injured and I always was able to perform well, but I didn't feel like I could indulge and enjoy my food. It seemed like a burden, felt like I was having to count calories trying to figure that out. So when, towards the end of my career here, you know, three years ago, when I shared with Elise, I wanted to make a fourth Olympic team and I just felt kind of burnt out, like I would always say to my husband, like, my least favorite part of my job is trying to get down to my race weight. It felt just really a struggle sometimes and he would sympathize for me. He's like, yeah, thank God I don't have to do that. Meanwhile, he's, you know, eating ice cream and chewing down on a burger. So.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  I felt like such a relief when Elise taught me how to cook because that's I think a lost art form, how to cook and then the fact that I could incorporate certain fats that would help me feel satiated and they're good, healthy fats. And that was like a game changer to me. And I think I've really enjoyed my career a lot more because it hasn't felt like this burden of getting down to this race weight. It's become natural now. I don't have to, I don't count calories and it's just made food and the process of what I do much more enjoyable.

• 20:01Rich Roll?

  But you've been able to hit your race weight goals and all that kind of thing.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  I have, yeah. Yeah, without the burden of the counting of the calories and feeling like, feeling like I'm dieting. I don't feel like I'm dieting. Like, the great thing is, is I feel more even keel. I feel like my weight is just very stable, whether I'm competing or not, whether I'm running 120 miles or I'm running 50 miles.

• 20:22Rich Roll?

  So what would be an example of what you were doing before versus what you're doing now?

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Everything was very low fat. I thought that having fat in your diet was bad. I didn't know that actually there are some healthy, good fats out there. So I was, you know, probably eating way more packaged foods too because I could know the calorie count on them. So I could know exactly how many calories were in things. So a lot of packaged foods, a lot of low-fat yogurts, low-fat cheeses, low-fat meats. And now I'm basically doing the opposite. I incorporate butter, grass-fed beefs. You know, I eat full-fat things so that I'm not, you know, it's full with nutrition and not extracting it.

• 21:05Rich Roll?

  And we should make the caveat here now, you're laughing. Because of course, everybody listening to this, yeah, it's like, I'm the vegan athlete. I know, sorry. And I got a vegan cookbook and all that. And of course, I know that Run Fast, Eat Slow is not a plant-based cookbook.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Well, you could, coconut oil is a good one.

• 21:21Rich Roll?

  So, yeah, there's lots of, there's lots of amazing plant-based recipes in this book, though, right? So there's, there's something for everyone and, and, you know, I would rather prefer to build bridges and, and, you know, find the common ground than talk about the differences. And I think there's, there's plenty of similarities here and things that, that, that, you know, we can. Agree on here and it's an interesting thing with fats. I think when you, when you start talking about low fat, the more like low fat foods, you start to, you know, stock in your pantry or your refrigerator, there's like a sliding scale, inevitably they become more processed, right? And generally, taste is compensated by adding more sugar in, right? So you're getting a lot of sugary products that are, that are low fat, but they're also

• 22:05Rich Roll?

  not as satiating, so you end up eating more and then you're eating more crap and there's a vicious cycle that kind of ensues where you start to crave those foods, right? And, and, and I think, you know, hallmark of your book is really, these are whole foods, like this is real food, right? And there's something about that, that I think is, is, is, what's the right word? I'm struggling for the right word, but it's, I hate the word like ancestral, but it's like, look at what our, you know, grandparents ate, you know, look at, let's go back to, you know, what worked a long time ago and try to understand how the, how the body, you know, instead of vilifying certain macro nutrients, try to find a balanced approach to that. And fat is, you know, tricky too, because, you know, in a lot of the work that I do,

• 22:50Rich Roll?

  I deal with people that are sick or obese and, and, you know, fat can be a big problem with those people if they're dealing with heart disease or diabetes and the like, but that's a very different scenario from an elite, you know, marathon or preparing for her, her fourth Olympics or training for an ultra marathon, like you have to have fat in your diet. So whether it's coconut oil or what have you, the bottom line is that, you know, a gram of fat contains more energy in it than other food sources and it can provide you with some things that you need in order to, you know, train day in and day out.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 23:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so anyway, well, it's interesting evolution. Well, let's take it back a little bit to kind of this past year. It's been such an amazing year.

• 23:36Rich Roll?

  What is really kind of striking to me, Shalane, about your career is that you seem to excel in all these different events and different distances, right? Like, you're not, I think, you know, people maybe right now know you mostly as a marathon or because of Rio and what happened there, but, I mean, you're breaking American records at 10K and you've been to the Olympics in different distances. Like, what do you attribute your ability to excel in these various disciplines? Because I think most track and field athletes will kind of pick their lane and that's the lane that they stay in, but you seem to be able to switch it up.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I guess I started out, obviously, I think, as a little girl, running the shorter distances and just honing my skills as a, as a track runner. That's where my background came from. It came from the love of cross country and the love of track and field.

• 24:29Rich Roll?

  So, you grew up in Massachusetts?

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:33Rich Roll?

  You ran like a 445 mile in high school or something like that, right?

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, and I mean, well, I grew up, I grew up in a culture where running was, was really big. I grew, I was born in Boulder, Colorado, and I basically grew up in the back of Frank Shorter's running store. And so this is a very unique childhood. I saw my parents go out and run every day and I thought everyone's parents ran. I thought that it was normal to just go and hang out in the back with all the shoes at a running store and see Frank Shorter walk in and...

• 25:03Rich Roll?

  Well, let's put a pin in that for a second because your parents weren't just runners. Like, your mom had, was she like the, wasn't she like the world's fastest?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  World record holder.

• 25:13Rich Roll?

  She had a world record in the marathon.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:15Rich Roll?

  And your dad also was an extraordinary runner.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yep, they were both great runners, but I didn't know at the time.

• 25:21Rich Roll?

  You didn't know at the time, right?

• 25:22Speaker 01

  I didn't know any better, no.

• 25:23Rich Roll?

  So, you're like genetically hardwired to, like, did that create pressure for you as a young runner?

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Well, my sister and my brother don't, are not runners, so it worked for one of us, but...

• 25:33Rich Roll?

  It's sort of like, uh... You're the running version of Taylor Finney. Do you know Taylor?

• 25:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 25:38Rich Roll?

  So Taylor, well, he was at the Olympics in cycling, but his mother was Connie Carpenter and his father was Davis Finney and they were both like extraordinary cyclists.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:47Rich Roll?

  So, yeah, I'm interested in, that's, that's a very unique, interesting household to grow up in.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and grew up at altitude and if you read David Epstein's Sports Gene, there's something to be said about endurance athletes, you know, at the top level. If you look at them, a lot of them were born at altitude. Who's interesting, side note. But, um, yeah, so I grew up around the sport and I just thought it was part of everyone's, you know, life to just go and run.

• 26:15Rich Roll?

  Did you gravitate towards running naturally? Was there, did your parents encourage you to? Or what was the dynamic in that household?

• 26:21Speaker 01

  No, my parents actually tried to throw every sport there was out there besides running. They, they wanted me to find running on my own, but they, and they would obviously support it if I wanted to go run. Like I would beg them to just go run around the block. I had a lot of energy as a little girl and I just loved pushing myself. I loved being outdoors. I, I couldn't get enough of just being active all the time. And so running was a great sport for me in that sense. And I was just innately very competitive. And I think I knew that I loved running when we had a physical fitness test and we got to run against all the kids in the school and I beat everyone, including the boys. And I thought this is the sport for me.

• 27:02Rich Roll?

  How old were you?

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know, maybe like 11 or 12 or something like that. And I just felt a lot of self-confidence associated with that. I felt, loved pushing my body. So it was just one of those kind of moments that I distinctly remember thinking that I really love running.

• 27:19Rich Roll?

  Right, like the switch was flicked, like the lights went on.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:22Rich Roll?

  Was that a moment where you're like, I'm all in? Or did, was it, it must've been years later before.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was more years later. And I felt like my dad, especially through every sport there was in front of me, to try to delay me running and it didn't work though, so.

• 27:38Rich Roll?

  So he was actually trying to slow you down?

• 27:40Speaker 01

  He was, um, you know, I played soccer quite a bit and I even played soccer in high school my freshman year. And I swam. I was an avid swimmer all the way through high school. I didn't start running all year round until I got to college, actually, because my parents were always trying to do the other sports.

• 27:56Rich Roll?

  I saw in your bio that you were a swimmer, and I don't know if you've thought about this at all, but when you decide that you're done with running and track and field, I think you might have a bright future in triathlon.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  I would love to. I was just telling Elise.

• 28:10Rich Roll?

  If you have a background in swimming, swimming is the thing that most triathletes don't know how to do naturally very well, and cycling is something you can pick up with just saddles.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  You haven't seen me on a bike, though.

• 28:20Rich Roll?

  Oh, come on. I think you could, I think you could pick it up. I think you have a bright future in triathlon. I'm gonna, I'm gonna plot out your, the next chapter of your career.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm coming to you as my, my next coach, then.

• 28:31Rich Roll?

  I think it would be amazing.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  She'll probably start with the Ironman.

• 28:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you should.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  I went for the, I told Elise, just straight to the big one.

• 28:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you should. Well, you obviously got the marathon down.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  But yeah, no, there's a desire to do that. I, I love to physically be challenged, and I'm an addict. Like, I told Elise, like, I have to do something physical every day. I gotta sweat a little bit every day, no matter what it is. So I'm looking for that next challenge, yeah.

• 28:56Rich Roll?

  Cool. All right, so you get serious in high school at some point, and you start killing everyone, right? And, and so obviously, did you get a scholarship to UNC, or how did that work? Why did you decide to go there?

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was recruited by a wide variety of colleges throughout the country, but narrowed it down to a few and took some visits. And, you know, Carolina was actually just kind of on a whim. I thought, ooh, I really liked their Carolina blue colors. And, oh, Mia Hamm went there, and Michael Jordan. It was a completely vain kind of trip. It was not...

• 29:27Rich Roll?

  I really liked the light blue.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was like, ooh, I think I'd look good in that. So I went there, really not with any intention of thinking I'd actually go there, because they weren't, they were known for sprint program and like, field events, not for distance running. And I was looking at some hardcore, serious distance schools, you know, the Villanova, and, you know, with pedigree kind of behind it. And there was no history of really any serious long distance running, and... But I went down there and fell in love with the school and it made the decision very hard, but yet very easy in the end and I am so grateful I did.

• 30:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you ended up winning a couple of institute titles there, right? Like I think you were the first, first female track and track and field athlete to win titles? Do I have that wrong? You're, you're, first, let me just say this. Your resume is so filled with so many accomplishments that I can't remember them all, so forgive me if I misspeak.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I mean, uh, Carolina, I think I was their first cross-country athlete.

• 30:29Rich Roll?

  Ah, cross-country, okay.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I won two cross-country titles and I was okay on the track. Um, really didn't develop into a great track runner until after I graduated college.

• 30:38Rich Roll?

  And when does, when does coming, uh, turning pro come into the picture?

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Um, I went pro a year early. I still had some eligibility. I'd planned to take five years, but I had, um, pleaded with my coaches to try to try out for the Olympic team in 2004. So actually on my recruiting trip, I was a cocky little thing and I said, hey, um, so in like four years I'll be a senior and I'd like to redshirt because I want to try to make the Olympic team. Here I am out of high school. I, all I've run is a 445 mile. I mean, that's good and all, but, and I even told them, I was like, I think I'm going to run the 5K and I want to try to make the Olympic team. And like I said, I'll come, but you have to like, promise me you'll let me redshirt because I really want to try to make this Olympic team. And they probably were like, after I left the meeting, they probably like, what was she on? Like, who does she think she is?

• 31:26Rich Roll?

  The audacity of that.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  The audacity of that little 18-year-old.

• 31:29Rich Roll?

  But what I hear is somebody who had a lot of confidence and, and had a dream and believed in yourself early on, even if you didn't have the results yet to, to prove that, that that was what was going on in your mind at the time.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I had parents that were very encouraging and I'll bet you at some point my dad planted that seed. And I just believed it because he, he believed it.

• 31:49Rich Roll?

  He's whispering to you at night while you slept.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yes, subliminal messages.

• 31:54Rich Roll?

  Did you, did you always think that you would move up into the longer distances and ultimately to the marathon? Or did you see, like, I guess what I'm getting at is, did you see like a long-term plan of like, I'm going to master these shorter distances and continue to step up the volume and the distance and try to master them, you know, kind of put additional notches in your belt? Was that always like the plan or did that just happen organically?

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I think it was more organic. I don't think I sat down and really consciously thought out, you know, my progression because, you know, as an athlete, there's so many highs and lows. There are years that are great and years that are really tough. And so you just never know where you're going to end up. But growing up, after having been in Boulder, then my parents divorced and I moved with my dad and my sister to Boston. And then that also happens to be a mecca of distance running and marathoning. And growing up in Boston, I became enamored with the Boston Marathon and just completely captivated, especially watching my dad run it. And so the idea of marathoning, I thought, well, one day I'll run a marathon.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  But it looked so arduous and so tough that I thought, well, like, I'll never really be competitive at it. I'll like just complete it because completing a marathon in itself is an achievement. So I actually, when I was little, never thought like I'd be trying to win the Boston Marathon. I just thought, wow, that'd be fun to complete it. But then as I, you know, just evolved as a runner and I think where, when I won a bronze medal in Beijing, that gave me kind of this sense of completion and just fulfillment on the track. And it allowed me to kind of move and dabble into the marathon just to see if I was cut out for it.

• 33:39Rich Roll?

  Right. I like how you just glazed over the bronze medal in 2008. That was in the 10,000, right?

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it wasn't the marathon yet, but you were inching up into the longer distances. And that was kind of a, was that expected to medal in 2008?

• 33:57Rich Roll?

  Maybe you expected it.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  It was, I, prior to Beijing, I had only run two 10, 10,000 meters in my life. I, on my first attempt, set the American record, which is a great achievement.

• 34:10Rich Roll?

  The first time you ever ran it.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  The first time I ran it.

• 34:13Rich Roll?

  This is a trend, by the way.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  And then the second time I ran it was to qualify for the Olympics. However, my time was the best in the world going into the Olympics. So I thought, you know, I may have a chance, like, this may be my one and only chance. And it's really hard to do in the Olympics because they typically run extremely fast. And I knew I'd have to run a lot faster in order to get a medal. But unfortunately, four days before my race, we were at a training camp outside of Beijing, and I came down with severe food poisoning. And I couldn't even get on my flight to go to Beijing. I had to stay at the training camp an extra day because I couldn't keep anything down. I was just, I was a mess. And the doctors wouldn't let me leave, do the fact, do the fact I would make a mess on the plane.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  And so I thought, oh, my gosh, this is it. It's done. I'm not going to have a chance to probably ever medal again. Like, this was my only chance. And I got to Beijing, and my coach, he was already there. He said, you know, like, you have the 5K coming up after the 10K. So maybe we should just scratch the 10K. You should save your energy. You need to refuel, rehydrate. We should just not run it. It's just not going to be, it's going to be pointless. And I fought hard. I was like, no, you know what? It may not go well. I may drop out, but I think I just owe it to myself and the fact that no one else can come and take my spot now. There's only three American women that can get on that line. No one's going to take my spot.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  I should just at least start the race, you know? Well, you never know what could happen. And I probably won't run well, but, you know, I'm here. And...

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Thankfully, he just said, "Okay, whatever. You just do whatever you want to do." And I am so glad that I stuck to my guns on that because obviously that was a life-changing moment. And I don't really remember much from the race because I think I had such low expectations of myself, I just ran. It's almost like I closed my eyes and I just ran and hoped it was good enough. That's how I felt.

• 36:17Rich Roll?

  And bronze medal, that's amazing. Yeah, I had heard that you had had food poisoning. I didn't realize it was that severe, though, that it actually delayed your travel. And did you know, lining up that day, that you weren't, like, did you feel like you would bounce back? Or you, I mean, the thing I think people don't realize is that at your level, just the slightest, being off, like, in just the slightest degree is all the difference in the world.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  It is. And yeah, I'm still shocked. I don't know how. I had a great support team. The USOC had a doctor who was very helpful in rehydrating me. That was the main concern, was the dehydration that I'd suffered and I'd not consumed a lot of food, which was tough. So I felt depleted. You know, imagine not eating for three days and all you've just had is like crackers and just hydration fluids. But they did some analysis and I was hydrated enough to compete, they felt. Because had I just still been dehydrated and not feeling good, but I was starting to feel like I was coming around. But at the same time, I thought, no way. I just hung out by the toilet for like four days. Like, you know, I barely even ran.

• 37:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, after like, you know, a whole lifetime of dreaming about this moment to be there, not to mention, you know, shouldering the pressure that comes with participating in your very first Olympics.

• 37:42Rich Roll?

  I had read somewhere, though, that you said that you felt like the pressure increased at addition, like, with each successive Olympiad. Like, the first time, you didn't feel the pressure as much as you did the second and the third and so on.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:57Rich Roll?

  Why is that?

• 38:00Rich Roll?

  It seems to me it would be the other way around. Like as you acclimate and get used to and kind of understand what the Olympics are all about and you have some emotional maturity, that you're able to kind of deal with those pressures in a more facile way.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  I guess as a first time Olympian in Athens, I just had, I had no idea what I was doing. And so, and I was just out of college. I was pretty young. And I knew I didn't really have a chance to medal. Like I was very realistic about my capabilities. And I knew I wasn't running fast enough to compete for a medal. So that to me, if you're not competing for a medal, it's, there doesn't feel like a lot of pressure.

• 38:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, or no one's looking at you to do that.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think a lot of people knew, oh, you know, she did phenomenal. She's, um, she's like very young and she's got a bright future, but it's not necessarily realistic. But then I think once I medaled in Beijing, ever since then, I've, I've always wanted to have that feeling again. Those kind of moments are the moments that you train for and you dream about. That they're what get you through the 28 mile long runs. They're what get you through a lot of tough moments. And so when you arrive there, you want to have all those tough moments be worth it. And you want all the people that supported you to be validated by your performance as well. So you're not just running for just yourself. So the more people over the years that I've accumulated throughout my career and helped me,

• 39:27Speaker 01

  you feel, I feel like it's empowering, but at the same time, I feel like I've got to run for them and I want them to feel validated in their efforts and helping me.

• 39:38Rich Roll?

  Right, right. Well, I think that brings up an important thing with you. I, my, my impression is that you're somebody who works really well in that kind of team construct or with, you know, partnerships, right? Like the partnership that you and Elise have with this book and the work that you guys are doing. And, you know, especially the training partner that you've had this past year just seems to have been transformative and, and really instrumental in, in really kind of fueling you, empowering you through the success that you experienced this year.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I certainly thrive on, um...

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Contributing to something bigger and greater than myself and I don't enjoy journeys that are completely solo. I like moments of solitude. I think everyone does. I love a good long run by myself, but in general, I enjoy the process and the journey if I have other people to enhance it and we have memories together and they push me and challenge me. And if you're by yourself, you don't know if you're being pushed or challenged. I mean, you can think you are, but I've realized that if you have other people around, um, holding you accountable, you realize you're capable of probably much more than you thought you were.

• 40:50Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Especially in such an individual sport, right? It would be very easy for you to just say, "I'm gonna do this. I'm just gonna do all my training on my own," right?

• 41:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:00Rich Roll?

  You have that option. You have that choice. You could do that.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I don't enjoy it.

• 41:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, so the motivation is externally driven as much as it is internally driven for you. Is that fair?

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I, I enjoy making other people better. I enjoy seeing my teammates' success and feeling like I'm contributing to their, to their careers.

• 41:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and we're gonna get to Olympic trials. I wanna talk about what happened at that, but before that, let's get to your first marathon. So you still, you, you come out of Beijing, you still haven't run a marathon yet, right?

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:41Rich Roll?

  So when, is it 2010? You decided you're gonna run your first marathon?

• 41:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, the New York City Marathon. Elise was there. That's actually when Elise was in culinary school.

• 41:49Rich Roll?

  Ah, uh-huh.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  And so...

• 41:51Rich Roll?

  You were there to, you were there to watch the race or were you running in it as well?

• 41:54Speaker 01

  No, just there to cheer Shalane.

• 41:55Rich Roll?

  Right, uh-huh. Alright, so very first marathon.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:59Rich Roll?

  But you must have run marathon distances in training, right?

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, no. I was such a newbie. I had come from, so prior to, uh, when I won the medal, I was under a different coach. And then I made a big change in my career. I, um... You know, changed agents, changed coaches. I made a lot of changes after Beijing just because I envisioned a different path. I didn't have any training partners and I didn't have a coach who was on hand. I only saw him a few times a year. So I really wanted a team atmosphere and I wanted to tackle the marathon. So I made a big change and I moved out here to Portland from North Carolina, started working with my coach now and my husband helped started managing my career and I was just taking a little bit more ownership and

• 42:45Speaker 01

  control the older I got with what I wanted to do. And at the time when I came to my current coach Jerry and I said, "I really want to try to tackle the marathon" and he kind of like laughed at me because he's like, "First of all, you have like zero patience in your racing" and like I was just love to attack, attack my training and he's like, "You need to learn patience, first of all, and your mileage and the amount of work that you're used to doing is really low." I was very undertrained, which was great, but I needed a lot of work to do. So I came to him and for a year he made me train like a marathoner, but we didn't run a marathon. And then when he finally picked out New York for me, I just let him decide when I was ready. And he picked out New York, which

• 43:27Speaker 01

  I was like, "Great, that's like one of the hardest marathons there is and one of the most competitive ones." But it ended up being a great decision because it allowed me to see whether I should dedicate the next four years of my life to try to make the Olympic team in the marathon or if I should stay on the track. So he threw me in with one of the hardest courses in the most competitive fields.

• 43:47Rich Roll?

  Right. So tell us what happened.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  I think because I had zero expectation and I was just wanting to, at the end of the day, essentially just finish the race and call myself a marathoner. With each mile that passed, I was just like, "Oh, I'm still in it. Like, I'm still here and I'm not like crumbling and falling off on the side of the road. I'm not like breaking down." So each mile that went by that I felt good and I was still in the race, I grew more and more confident. And it's like I could just smell the finish line. Once we got to maybe like mile 19 and I got really excited and I started to actually push the race. And in the race with some of the best marathoners, we had Mary Katani, who was world record

• 44:29Speaker 01

  holder in the half marathon and a handful of amazing women. But I, like I said, is we got closer and closer. I got so excited to be like, "I'm going to finish this marathon." I just couldn't believe I was going to finish it.

• 44:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  I hung in there. I didn't end up winning, but through Central Park started to get tough. I got, I think, a little too excited and then probably with like three miles to go, the reality set in of all those hills and my quads were starting to scream at me. And I actually got dropped on a downhill, which is hard to do. My coach was like, how did you get dropped on a downhill? But I did. And then I rallied and came back. I was Mary Katani and Edna Kiplagat took off. And I rallied though and beat Mary Katani, who is the current world record holder in the half marathon. And then, but Edna still had enough of a gap on me that she ended up winning.

• 45:24Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  So I finished second.

• 45:25Rich Roll?

  So you get second in your very first marathon. But to put it in context, you had been preparing for a year.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just bumped up my mileage, did some of the workouts.

• 45:34Rich Roll?

  And did you learn that patience that your coach wanted you to learn? Sounds like you kinda did.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  I kinda did. Yeah, I think I was so intimidated by the distance. I couldn't be reckless like I typically would in other races.

• 45:46Rich Roll?

  Right. And the, I think, was it the highest finish for an American woman at the New York City Marathon in like 20 years or something like that? Like, that's incredible.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:57Rich Roll?

  So, I mean, what an amazing thing, right? So after that, are you thinking, all right, well, the marathon's my jam? Like, this is what it's gonna be about? Or this is just another event that I can do?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I fell in love with the marathon. I had a great first experience. You talk to most marathoners, like Meb. He, he had a miserable first experience and he thought, I'm never doing that again. And then he obviously went on, he's gonna probably, he just completed his 24th marathon. But initially, he did not like the marathon.

• 46:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Uh, and here I was, I had a great first experience. But I knew at some point I was gonna have a humbling marathon. I knew it was inevitable. Um, but I just, I fell in love with the training. I loved the atmosphere. I loved being on the roads. I loved being part of the masses. The, the track was very, is very, can be very isolating and it's not as inclusive. It's very exclusive.

• 46:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  There's, not everyone goes out to the track and runs, you know.

• 46:54Rich Roll?

  And as a first marathon, I mean, New York City is just incredible with the crowds and the cheering. It's just insane.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  It is. It's unlike anything. It was equivalent to like the an Olympic experience that got that feeling of just magical.

• 47:07Rich Roll?

  Right. When you're, when you cross the, what is it? The, is it the 59th Street Bridge? And you come into Manhattan and it's like insane, right?

• 47:15Speaker 01

  It is. Yeah. It's just, it's intoxicating and you feel very alive, you know, participating in a marathon.

• 47:24Rich Roll?

  Right. So, all right. So, what do you think is, is the different, like, what do people not understand about the difference between running a marathon, like at your level and like the average person that's going out to run, you know, sort of suffer through their, you know, like kind of slog through their first marathon? Because, you know, my perspective is, you know, for somebody like yourself, it's all about like riding that super fine line between, you know, just going too hard where you're going to flame out, but being kind of on the rivet the entire time. Like you're maintaining just an insane pace for such an extraordinarily long period of time that it's very different from somebody

• 48:08Rich Roll?

  else who's like, okay, I'm gonna, you know, sort of figure out how to, you know, stay in my aerobic zone for, you know, four hours or something like that.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  In a way, we're running very different marathons.

• 48:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's a completely different thing.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  My husband, who's a pretty good marathoner, and he was an 800 meter runner in college and bumped up, and he loves the marathon now. And he says, you know, when he goes to run a marathon and when I go to run a marathon, it's a very different experience because he pops in his headphones, he has his Garmin watch, and he locks into his pace. And he tries to run, you know, six minute miles the entire way to the finish. And he can back off, but generally he can hover right around that, that perfect pace for him the entire way. When I go to run a marathon...

• 48:50Rich Roll?

  And that's fast. By all, you know, sort of objective standards, that's, if you're holding six minute mile, that's a very fast marathon.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  That's his PR. Yeah. And then when I go to run, I could run anywhere from a seven-minute mile down to a five-minute mile because there's fart licking and there's different pace changes and you you compete, you race. And when you race, you are burning fuel like crazy. You're going, it's imagine driving a car and you're just hammering down on the gas and then you're throwing down the brake and then ramming the gas. And you use a lot more energy. So it makes it for a very different experience. You're not just going out there and just clicking off perfect splits all the time unless you choose to run certain marathons that way, which I have. But it's a completely different feel than when you're out there in Rio, for example. We were fart licking really hard throughout the race. So it would

• 49:41Speaker 01

  look like I'd get dropped, but I knew that they would slow down. So I would fall off the pack by, you know, 10 meters. And then they'd slow down and I would catch right back up to the pack because I didn't want to burn extra fuel and energy. So it's just a really different experience in the sense, I'm competing, I'm trying to beat people. I'm not worried about my time in general. I'm just worrying about beating as many people as I can. And so I'm constantly listening to my competitors, how their breathing is, what their form looks like, how can I use this to my advantage? How can I make sure I'm running the perfect line on the course so that I don't waste any? I'm all about conserving energy as much as I can. And so, you know, the general public is out there, like I said, and they get to click off their nice little pace, listen to their tunes,

• 50:24Speaker 01

  jamming along. And so it's a different, I mean, but everyone's

• 50:28Rich Roll?

  You have no idea.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  I mean, everyone's put out there pushing themselves. You know, there's moments where it's going to get hard for everyone, but it's it's definitely, you know, they get to decide how much they want to push themselves that day. And sometimes, yeah, I ride, I've rode over the line many times and almost feel like I'm walking it in at the end. But

• 50:47Rich Roll?

  Right. So you're so conditioned that you can go into the red and then pull it back and recover. And it's a question of how many times do you do that? When is it wise to do that? When is it not wise? How are you reacting to what everyone else is doing and to the conditions? You know, when do you, you know, tuck yourself behind somebody and let them break the wind? When is the appropriate time to surge? How fast do When you give up on a surge, like all of these things that are, you know, taking a mental toll on you as well. Like the gamesmanship and the strategy that's going on.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  I always thought it would be interesting to have like these bubbles above the heads. And like if you could watch a marathon and like, look at what people are thinking, like the elite marathoners. Like what are, it would be fun to like, see what people are thinking while they're competing. I think that would be like brilliant if you could have some chip that could read what like the athletes are actually thinking.

• 51:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, you could probably sit in the color commentary booth and because you know all these people, you probably have a pretty good bead on what it is exactly that they are thinking.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  I would love to do that at some point.

• 51:47Rich Roll?

  Here's what they're really thinking.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  This is what they're really thinking about. Well, early in the miles, they're thinking about, you know, what they're gonna have when they finish the race. What are they gonna eat?

• 51:57Rich Roll?

  All right. So after this extraordinary New York City marathon, it's not like you're just purely a marathoner, right? Like you're running cross country still and you go on with the following year. You have like, what happened here? You, oh, you got a bronze in the world cross country championships, right? The following year?

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:14Rich Roll?

  So you're still like mastering all these different, you know, terrains and disciplines and distances, which is really cool. Do you think that that has, I would imagine that you would say that that has served you well in terms of being a well-rounded runner and being able to kind of predict and anticipate all different kinds of conditions and things that come up, right? Which I think would be critical as a marathon runner.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think they all contribute to just making a well-rounded athlete. And I think it's allowed me to enjoy my sport longer because I throw in different events and different things I do. I don't know how there's some, personally, I don't know how some athletes can just straight marathon year after year after year. The training is so hard, at least my training's really hard. And I need the breaks. I need the mental and the physical breaks. And I need to switch it up and get excited about different avenues and areas and different goals. So for me, it's, it was really important to have chunks of time where I'm a marathoner and then. I get back to the track and then I get my cross country runner and I need the different disciplines because I think it hones my skills and makes me at the end of

• 53:19Speaker 01

  the day, a better athlete each time around.

• 53:22Rich Roll?

  Right, and keeps you mentally fresh.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:24Rich Roll?

  For what's happening. Do you think that that's contributed to the longevity of your career?

• 53:28Speaker 01

  I think so. I think that and just, um, yeah, I think that and eating well.

• 53:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, eating well, of course, and we're gonna get back to that.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:39Rich Roll?

  Do you, it doesn't seem that you've had extended periods where you were out due to injury. Is that true?

• 53:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 53:46Rich Roll?

  You've been, you've been pretty good about that, right?

• 53:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, knock on, knock on this nice wood table that we're sitting at. What do you attribute that to? We could talk about nutrition as, you know, as far as that being a contributing factor, but

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:02Rich Roll?

  you know, beyond that also, you know, this idea of, of, of how you approach your training and when, you know, is time to back off and, and take these breaks that, that you were referencing because I think the other thing that, that people don't realize is that for runners at, at your level, you could probably train a lot harder, right? A lot of the discipline is in the restraint that you have to exercise and hold back from, you know, going out for a little bit longer, a little bit faster.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  It's so easy to do, thinking more is better. It's so easy to fall into that.

• 54:40Rich Roll?

  Especially when you start thinking about your competitors.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:42Rich Roll?

  Like, oh, I bet he or she is doing this.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:45Rich Roll?

  And so, you know, I could do more. I should do more.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I've had moments where I've probably like a fine line between doing too much and, you know, it going like south really quickly. Uh, I can think of a few instances, instances where I probably have just, um, overdone, overcooked myself and not been able to perform at the level I probably should have been capable of, but. I think in, in general, for some weird reason, I just have an innate ability to read my body really well. I really just, you know, I, I look at some athletes and I think, how do they not know that? I, how do they not know to not do that? And I guess there's some things that I just take for granted. I just

• 55:26Rich Roll?

  Do what?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Like, just listen to my body. Like, I just listen to what it's telling me. And I think some people are just so out of touch with what their body is telling them that they just, they don't listen. It just takes listening to your body sometimes. And I know, I think we can, as runners especially, can be really stubborn and think, um, well, that's just part of being a runner and I need to just push through this. I, I know that that happens a lot and I do that too sometimes, but I think that's, there's a disconnect somehow. People just don't listen to their bodies. It's the same reason why people probably overeat. They don't listen to when they're like full. Um, it's just listening to your bodies and I think that's a gift that for some reason I was given.

• 56:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's, it's tricky to be able to discern what that dividing line is because you do have to have the, the discipline to push through discomfort. That's a job requirement, right? Like that's, you know, you're not going to excel and, and, you know, achieve these goals at the elite level that, that you want to achieve if you're not an expert, if you're not a professional at being comfortable, being uncomfortable, right? But when, when is it, you know, when is it the wrong time? You know, it's like, you know, I, I would imagine that just comes with a lot of experience. But what you're saying is there's a lot of experienced athletes out there that still make that mistake.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  They do. It's a surprising amount. Um, and I wish I had like a concrete answer of like, yeah, this is exactly what I do and this is how people should approach it, but I don't. It's just, um, it's just an innate thing that I just feel like I've been able to read my body really well. And that's been probably one of the best gifts I've been given is, um, to have the continuous training over 12 years, um, straight with literally basically no injuries.

• 57:16Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And what does your like sort of recovery routine entail?

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Um, my recovery routine, I mean, food is a huge component of that, but in general, I mean, I have a great massage therapist that I work with all the time and I have a great chiropractor and ART therapist and on top of that, we're in the gym quite a bit with my group and I feel like the gym is not for vanity reasons, it's for you know, the internal strength and muscles that you that we need to just stay healthy and good mechanics and form.

• 57:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, functional body strength. So what does that gym routine look like?

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Uh, it changes every time. We have a core coach and he is a.

• 57:59Rich Roll?

  You have a whole coach just for core?

• 58:01Speaker 01

  We do. Well, we have a big team. So we have a core coach and his name is Pascal Dober and he was a former Olympian in the steeplechase. So he coaches our steepers and then he also is our core coach and he is not huge into like heavyweights where it's very much our own body weight that we use and he does a lot of intrinsic muscles that you don't necessarily get to see how awesome they are because they're the deep seated core muscles and but it's always different when we go there. We don't really have like the same routine every day. He kind of just throws a lot of stimulus, which is fun for us as athletes.

• 58:40Rich Roll?

  And is that something you do every day?

• 58:42Speaker 01

  No, not every day. Usually three times a week in general.

• 58:45Rich Roll?

  Right. Alright, so core, uh, massage, food, what else?

• 58:51Speaker 01

  That's like.

• 58:52Rich Roll?

  That's the main thing. What about sleep?

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, sleep. That's true.

• 58:55Rich Roll?

  Do you do, do you nap?

• 58:57Speaker 01

  I do and I've gotten not, I'm not as good anymore about napping. I used to like be a hardcore napper, but I felt like it was messing up with my look good like sleeping through the night. Um, so now I just, if I lay down for an hour to two hours a day and just like lay there, then that's pretty good. In my marathon training and track training, I can get away with much less.

• 59:18Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And how many hours of sleep a night?

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know. I mean, the minimum that I can get by with is probably seven, but probably in that eight to nine is like my ideal.

• 59:28Rich Roll?

  Right. And in a typical buildup, you know, situation, you're training twice a day, right?

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:34Rich Roll?

  So, running in the morning and in the evening?

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 59:37Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And then the gym workout would be sometime midday?

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Uh, yes.

• 59:42Rich Roll?

  Right. And what is the relationship, like, what does that training look like in terms of, um, you know, the percentage of kind of volume, uh, putting in the miles type running versus, you know, the fart lick and the track workouts and the sprinting and the highly like anaerobic speed work?

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  So you're saying, what does that?

• 1:00:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm interested in like the, the recipe of like trying to, you know, build up your aerobic base to handle a marathon distance, but also, you know, at your level, obviously speed is so important. So what is, you know, how do you kind of parse that?

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, our philosophy, at least within my training group, is that, uh, the, we don't really focus on speed. We say that, you know, like the endurance is speed. It translates easily. If you have great endurance, it can easily be transferable to speed. So we don't actually like work on speed very much. Um, we run a lot of miles. So like for Rio, I ran 120 miles a week roughly. And we do one long run a week, which is quite a bit and nothing less than like 21 miles. It'll be like from 21 to 28 miles. And sometimes a really high quality though, there'll be like chunks at race pace, um,

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  or cut downs. Um, and then we'll have one speed session, which is about eight to 12 miles long, and that'll be at sub marathon pace. So we have a really simplistic program.

• 1:01:07Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So, so it's, it's interesting. So you're not doing banging out like 400s on an interval on the track or anything like that?

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  We will. Um, but if you were to look at like my three month buildup for Rio, maybe four times within that buildup, do we do like just some quarters?

• 1:01:25Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. But even the volume work that you're doing is very quality oriented.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Uh, you mean in just my general runs?

• 1:01:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Like daily runs? It just depends. I listen to my body. I don't try to like push the pace. But I mean, to some people it would sound fast, but to me.

• 1:01:41Rich Roll?

  For you.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  It doesn't, it's not very strenuous, so.

• 1:01:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:47Rich Roll?

  It seems like a lot of elite marathoners, um, I, well, answer me this.

• 1:01:54Rich Roll?

  It seems like it's easier for people to, people of your caliber to go from specializing in shorter distances and move up to the marathon, then it doesn't happen the other way around. It's not like people are really good at the marathon and then they move down and work it on speed.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:10Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:11Rich Roll?

  So what do you, where, why do you think that is?

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Uh, I think just because generally younger athletes, how they get into the sport, no one generally jumps straight into the marathon.

• 1:02:21Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  And so they kind of work up their way and they need to build endurance. I, I always say like, you're not born a marathon, you make yourself a marathoner. And I truly believe that, like, you have to work, there's a lot of work to going into being a marathoner, more work than I've ever put in, in being a track athlete. And I think just the cumulative years of mileage helps people become great marathoners. So I think we start out at the shorter distances, just because you need to learn how to just,

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  um, to just increase the volume of your training.

• 1:02:52Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah. I mean, in, in, in triathlon, nobody goes from Ironman to Olympic distance.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:58Rich Roll?

  You know, at the highest level. It's always the other way around. But some of the people that are doing really well at Ironman now were people that were very good at Olympic distance.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:06Rich Roll?

  And have moved up. It's like, but it's a, it's like a five-year plan.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like being a student of your sport first before you can master it.

• 1:03:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  And, yeah.

• 1:03:23Rich Roll?

  All right, so you go to your next Olympics and you've run the marathon. Yeah, so you make the Olympic team in 2012, right? And what was that experience like?

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Uh, London, it's probably my least favorite out of my four Olympics for some reason. I don't know why, maybe because the race was so hard on me. I kind of have like a negative taste in my mouth, but uh, it was a great experience being there as a marathoner was an eye opener. It was just very different. Um, it was the first time I didn't stay in the Olympic Village. I treated it more like a job and coming there to perform.

• 1:04:00Rich Roll?

  Do you have a choice about staying in the village? You don't, you don't, you don't have to if you don't want to?

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't have to.

• 1:04:05Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, I mean, you have to let the appropriate people know that you're not going to be staying there because they like to keep track of everyone, but um, yeah, it's not a requirement. Um, I mean, men's like basketball was like on a cruise ship this summer, so.

• 1:04:18Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, I knew that, but like, but basketball has its own rules. You know, I just figured like that doesn't apply to them for some reason or whatever.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  I just like staying near the marathon course because sometimes the village, um, the villages have tended to be further away from the venue and I just kind of like being near the venue for some reason. Um, it was a great experience, but the race was very tough. And I think it's maybe the one time in my career where I didn't really listen to my body and I think I overtrained um, for that marathon. I think I was so motivated to just have an amazing race and I wanted it so bad that I overdid it for sure.

• 1:04:55Rich Roll?

  And, and what did you, so is that what you took away in terms of, you know, trying to better prepare for this, for Rio?

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  I constantly reminded myself about how I overdid it for London and I arrived feeling stale and tired and I really caved and crumbled in the last final miles in London and felt like I was barely going to finish. And I just told myself like, that was so miserable and I was really, you know, they talk about these post Olympic like depression. I felt like I genuinely had like a post Olympic depression after London and I think because I, I felt like I had been in a relationship and I'd been like broken up with someone. It was just felt devastating. It's like your dreams were just kind of crushed and I felt crushed after London and I thought, I just don't want to experience that again. And so I just felt like I trained a lot smarter this time around.

• 1:05:45Rich Roll?

  Did you go into London putting a lot more pressure on yourself?

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:50Rich Roll?

  Like, it was more like, serious, right?

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wasn't, I don't think I was enjoying the process nearly as much. And I was, just felt like, in order to validate everything, I had to have a medal in order it to be worthwhile.

• 1:06:02Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. So, what were the, like, very practical changes that you made in lead up to Rio?

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  Uh, just listening to myself more, my body and its needs. And I made sure to always, in workouts, I love to push myself, but I always reminded myself, I'd get, like, touch and like, put a toe in the, dip it in, just where it started to get really edgy and really hard, and just like, touch on it, but then pull it back.

• 1:06:31Rich Roll?

  So you know what that feels like, that?

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  So I'm like, okay, that's what redlining feels like, we'll do that for a few minutes, and then I'm gonna just pull it back and have some self-confidence and self-restraint to just not overdo it.

• 1:06:42Rich Roll?

  It seems to me, though, that this past year, you really had a good time. You had fun, right? Like, you're training really hard, but you're with your friend, your training partner.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:53Rich Roll?

  And you guys were enjoying, like, not, not only each other's company, but every aspect of what it meant to get ready for this year.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, not every day is like, super fun.

• 1:07:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  For sure. There are moments, I, you know, the hard part.

• 1:07:08Rich Roll?

  Life is not Instagram.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  No, it's not. Um, but I think the hardest part for me is being away at altitude, away from my home and my family. And, you know, I go for chunks of time. Um, you know, prior to, uh, Rio, I was gone for two months before I was able to come back home. So it's not always like, super glamorous, but I try to make the best of it, and I try to have fun and try to know that this won't last forever, and to make the best of the situation, and to just know because it's not gonna last forever, to kind of just treasure each day, cause things will change, and, um, to be appreciative of the opportunities I've been given in the support system. And, you know, I go and train in Park City, which is like, gorgeous. And so when I would be feeling sorry for myself and missing home, I'd be like, you have it pretty good.

• 1:07:54Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. When did Amy Cragg make the decision to move here and train with you?

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Let's see, she, well, she was previously with a different company, so it took a lot of logistics to actually attain Amy as to being my training partner. But I had kind of-

• 1:08:10Rich Roll?

  Because of like sponsors?

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, sponsors and whatnot.

• 1:08:13Rich Roll?

  It gets really complicated.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  It does.

• 1:08:14Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  And um, she and I had always been friends and competed against each other for a number of years. And I had reached out to her a couple of times in the past couple of years, even though we weren't, you know, teammates technically, and we'd be competing against each other, but it was, it's lonely being a marathoner. And so I'd reached out to her a few times saying, hey, like, I'm gonna be training some, you know, in Park City, would you like to come and join me? And she always wanted to, but for some reason, her coach and whatever she was doing wouldn't allow it, permit it. And I think just us constantly communicating over the years, kind of, we just saw if there was ever an opportunity, it would be great if we could train together, because we both, I think, knew it would make each other better. And it just so happened that her contract with her

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  previous, uh, you know, sponsor was coming up this year. And so I thought, well, this is the perfect time if we can try to make this happen.

• 1:09:05Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And, and what, can you articulate what a difference that made in your, in your prep?

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have had some great training partners over the years. I've had a lot of women, um, you know, other great marathoners and a lot of amazing women to train with, but for some, for some reason, there's definitely a connection that Amy and I have, and some synergy that when we get out and train, we're very similar in our mental approach and how, uh, how we just kind of get laser beam focused when it comes to workouts and the ability to push ourselves appropriately and just good energy. And, you know, she doesn't, she doesn't whine and complain, she's just like ready to go after and she'll work as hard as she can. And so she has attributes that I admire and work well with and-

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  I think we just enjoy having each other and I think we genuinely know we're helping each other and the best version that she can bring to the table on that day will not only help her but help me and it's very reciprocal.

• 1:10:06Rich Roll?

  At the same time, you're both vying for a spot on the Olympic team to run the marathon. So technically you're competitors, like the potential exists that you're in each other's way, which creates a very interesting dynamic, right?

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  That is very true, but at the same time, it's great because there's so much accountability. So she knows that she, I think we give each other confidence. She knows that if she's training with me, she's going to be one of the best in the world.

• 1:10:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  And so that's, that's like, gives her a lot of confidence, so.

• 1:10:40Rich Roll?

  And when you're at trials, no one's going to throw anything at you that you're not dealing with on a daily basis with her.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  Exactly. So if I make her really great, I'll know that she's my top competition. I know exactly what I'm getting into and what kind of race that we can, yeah.

• 1:10:54Rich Roll?

  Which brings us to Olympic trials and this amazing thing that went down with you guys. So walk, walk me through what went down in that race.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  Well, heading into that race was, it was definitely nerve wracking because I actually find the Olympic trials to be one of the most nerve wracking marathons because it's one of those things where I think some of the top American athletes know that they should make the team. Like Meb and I have talked about this. Meb's like, it's so stressful because it's like you should make the team. So if you don't, like it feels devastating because it's something that's almost feels like a given. So it's really, it's really stressful.

• 1:11:29Rich Roll?

  The swimmers say the same thing. They say that the trials is way more competitive and more stressful than the Olympics itself.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so the trials is a stressful event and I won it the, the last time. So I came in as a favorite. I, you know, a PR that was like a minute faster than the next woman. So there was definitely some, some great expectations of me. However, I had suffered my first little niggle like of my entire career. I'd taken two weeks off at the end of my season and came back and like 10 days in, I had a stress reaction in my foot, which it was like out of the blue. You know, you take time off thinking that's going to help you and then you start back up and then all of a sudden I'm like, oh my gosh, my foot hurts.

• 1:12:15Rich Roll?

  So this is like 10 weeks out?

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I don't remember exactly. I know I had like eight to 10 weeks to fully train, to get ready. And you know, a lot of people were like, oh, it's not a big deal. Like you're so far ahead of everyone. So it shouldn't be a big deal. And I'm like, no, you don't understand. This is like a marathon.

• 1:12:32Rich Roll?

  That's not helping.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  That's, that doesn't, that doesn't, just because, you know, yeah, you, I have run well, you know, you still have to put in the work. It's not like, um, you can't just cheat your way, like to, to that kind of a position. So I just felt like, um, it was a lot at stake going into the race because I, um, I knew Amy's training had gone well and mine had gone well, but I had had a much shorter buildup because of it.

• 1:12:58Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So everything seems to be going okay for the majority of the run. But then, what, like around mile 20 or so, you're, you're running, you're running with Amy, but things start to go a little bit sideways on you.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  So Amy and I, our goal the entire time was to just make the Olympic team and to make it together because we just didn't, we refused to train alone. We didn't want one of us to make it and have to train alone because that would mean one of us would probably have to dip down to the track to try to make the team. And we just didn't want that to happen. So I said to her before the race, no matter what, we're gonna, we're gonna work together and we're gonna make this team together. And on like the second lap, Amy had kind of like a rough patch where she was like, you know, we pulled away fairly early from, um, the pack, which wasn't the plan. The plan was to sit until six miles ago, but there was a woman, Kellen Johnson, who decided to throw in a surge and we just covered the surge thinking everyone was. And then before I knew it, there was only four of us. And I said to Amy, I'm like, is there only four of us? So she looked behind

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  and she's like, yeah, no, everyone's gone. And I'm like, okay, we're just going to keep up a little bit pressure, a little bit of pressure and maintain this tempo for like two miles and then we're going to back off and see what it does.

• 1:14:05Rich Roll?

  And this was at like, what, like mile 12 or something?

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  I think it was even earlier, maybe like nine or 10 or something like that. And so we did that. And before we knew it was just the two of us. And I said, okay, from here on out, you, we need to communicate. If one of us is starting to hurt, we just back off. There's no point in killing ourselves out front. We're going to use our All right, this to an advantage, we're gonna work together and this is really gonna be a beautiful marathon. I was like, Amy, this is a dream come true.

• 1:14:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and how great. You guys are out front and you're doing what you guys do every single day.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  It felt like practice. It's what I said, I go, this is just like practice, just visualize practice. Jerry's on his bike, he's giving us water bottles, we've got, you know, even some other girls on our team. Just visualize practice, it's nothing more than that, that's all you have to do. And I was like, this could be epic, Amy, this is so cool that we are in this moment and that we have this opportunity. So I was like, we're not gonna mess this up by pressing too hard, we're gonna listen to ourselves and we're gonna communicate and we are gonna, we're gonna execute this and we're gonna go one, two. And so she had a rough patch on lap two and I was like, okay, so we just backed off and I just like communicate with me and we'll just do whatever's necessary. And we just kept on getting feedback that we were pulling away, pulling away. And going into the last lap, I think we had like a minute on the next woman.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  And so, but going into the last lap, I started to get these like chills on my arms, which I know was like a sign of overheating or dehydration, I've gotten that a couple of times before. And I didn't say anything to Amy because I didn't want to scare her, I didn't want her to like freak out. And so I was like, I'll shake it off, it's not a big deal. And we kept, kept pressing going into that final loop. And when we got up towards the top of the Coliseum, I think Amy went to go like, talk to me and I was kind of like non-responsive and I think she saw my face and it was beet red. And I looked over to her and I said, Amy, I'm not doing well, like something's happening, this isn't good. I was like, if I need to slow down, like you need to just go, like, don't worry about me, like, I'm not feeling very good.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  She's like, no, no, you're fine, you just shake it off, we'll just get some more water, like, you'll be fine. Just get to the next fluid station. And at that point, she didn't realize, but she was starting to look concerned and she kept looking over at me, looking over at me. I could tell she was kind of like jogging, like it was, my pace was decaying. And... I told her, I was like, no, Amy, like, you really gotta go. And then in a point, there was a point where I just couldn't even talk to her anymore. I just had to go so internal. Cause I was hurting so badly that I just couldn't communicate any further. And she and I got to the next fluid station, which meant there was like three miles to go.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  And at that point, I was in just complete survival mode and part of me wanted her to take off because I didn't want her to like compromise anything. And at that point, I was thinking, I just want to drop out. Like this is the worst I've ever felt. Like, I don't want to continue. This feels awful. But the fact that she was still staying with me. Was one of those things like, well, she's still here, like, and we're so far ahead. I'll just try to, I'll just run as far as I can and just try to like stay with her. And um, her encouragement though, like, was what made the difference for me because I think had I just been out there alone out front, I would have, I would have just given in. I would have given in to the pain completely and caved.

• 1:17:22Rich Roll?

  It's such an incredible story. I mean, she, this is the Olympic trials, right? And she's slowing her pace down to, you know, well below what she felt like she could do at that moment, truly out of just, you know, a desire to make sure that you were okay, like to make sure that her teammate and her training partner was going to survive this thing.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:43Rich Roll?

  You know, I can't imagine what you're thinking, like, that push and pull of like, please don't leave me. I need you versus like,

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  You gotta go.

• 1:17:51Rich Roll?

  Please don't stay. I can't shoulder the responsibility of you having a subpar performance because of me.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:58Rich Roll?

  And the, and the, you know, her decision, I mean, nobody would have put it past her and you wouldn't have if she just said, I gotta go, man. You know, I'm out of here. Like, I hope it goes okay for you, you know?

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  I think she allowed me to be a four time Olympian because of what she did those last three miles.

• 1:18:12Rich Roll?

  It's so great. It's beautiful. It gives me goosebumps. You know, it's a beautiful story. What an amazing thing.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. I feel like she felt like I'd given her a second chance in her career. She was about to kind of like retire in this last year. And I think because I advocated so aggressively for her to join our team and to have Nike, you know, support her, I think she felt. I think a desire to reciprocate the gesture and I think that was like her way of doing that, feeling like I'd given her this opportunity and she felt like she had to help me now.

• 1:18:45Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  So I, I don't know if that's truly it, but I feel like deep down that that's how she felt.

• 1:18:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's so much packed into that.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:53Rich Roll?

  You know, but ultimately she does run off ahead.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:18:57Rich Roll?

  And but feeling like you were at least in, as you guys.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  It was only a mile ago.

• 1:19:02Rich Roll?

  A mile ago, right? And ultimately you did get passed, but you got third and you fell into her arms and there's those amazing photographs of that finish that will, you know, live forever that are really remarkable. But what a, what a beautiful story, right? And I, I can't imagine how much that, you know, bonded you guys even more.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, Amy and I, you know, I, when you go through so much like suffering with someone, there's just a bond that's unspoken and I think training partners will forever have a bond because of the kind of pain that they endure together and push each other. And so Amy and I definitely have like a great connection because we, we've worked, we've worked for a year now together and suffered a lot together.

• 1:19:49Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and the big takeaway from that is understanding that you have some challenges when it comes to running in high heat, right? And so you have to recalibrate prior to Rio to try to figure that out, like what, what was going on with you? That was your first marathon in that, those kind of conditions, right? Los Angeles, it was an unusually hot day, um, you know, severe conditions that you hadn't experienced before. And I think that's another interesting thing that somebody would expect that somebody at your level would have all of these things figured out. And yet here you are continuing to learn and coming up against situations you've never had to face before and having things not go as planned.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, that was a huge, tough lesson and I didn't know, because I'd never been put in that situation, that my body would respond that way and. In a way, I learned a lot through that experience. I then went to multiple resources to figure out what I'd done wrong. And I was massively dehydrated. You know, I needed to be in, I was in the medical tent afterwards and had to get an IV for the first time in my life. And so I was somewhat terrified after that race. I was scared to go run another marathon because it was so hard on me. And, but at the end of the day, I was able to, like I said, had a great resources and figured out that I apparently am a very aggressive sweater.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  And I lose a lot of fluids.

• 1:21:19Rich Roll?

  You went to the Olympic Training Center, right?

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:22Rich Roll?

  By the way, Jack Roach says hi.

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:25Rich Roll?

  You know Jack?

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, very cool. And they were great. They showed that I basically sweat like two or three times as much as Amy. I mean, we just use as a comparison just on that day, but I'm a very heavy sweater and I lose so much fluid when I'm running in, well, just in general, when I exercise and then in those kind of conditions.

• 1:21:46Rich Roll?

  Right, so the prescription to resolve that has to do with nutrition. So maybe Elise, who's sitting there very patiently and quietly.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  I scared Elise in that marathon. She said she like couldn't even sleep before Rio because of my problems that I had in LA.

• 1:22:02Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And this is, this is interesting for many, many reasons that relate to nutrition. But I've seen this with the highest level professional Ironman triathletes who, you know, win lots of Ironmans, but then go to Kona where the conditions are extremely hot and humid, and they run into the same problem and they spend years like trying to figure out like, how can I avoid the cramps or why am I getting dehydrated? Why am I throwing up? I don't throw up in Coeur d'Alene or wherever. I've raced these other races and have a really hard time trying to solve that. And some of them go their whole careers without figuring it out. But it takes them, you know, the average professional triathlete like a couple of times in Kona before they figure out how to resolve that problem.

• 1:22:44Rich Roll?

  So here you are, you really have, you know, a short period of time to figure this out before you go to Rio. But interestingly, you know, it comes back to shifting your nutrition around a little bit, right? Because you were having trouble, you were taking gels, right? And you couldn't absorb the sugar or what was going on?

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, like Elise had warned me that a lot of the products out there are just so high in sugar. And I was just using. I don't know if I should use names of products, but I was just using your traditional Gatorade. And it worked fine in all the cold marathons. Never had a problem in New York and stuff. It was cold enough and um, I wasn't drinking like a ton of fluid. I was only drinking about three or four ounces,

• 1:23:23Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  which isn't very much in general. Um, and at the, in LA, yeah, the sugars for some reason were just sloshing in my stomach and I wasn't able to absorb them. I have pictures and it's like I have like a gut at the finish.

• 1:23:38Rich Roll?

  You get bloated?

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I never experienced that before and I didn't even wanna drink when I was out there. And I told that to Amy. I go, my drinks don't taste well. The gel that I had in one of my bottles was just so, it was so hot and sticky. It was like melting into my bottle and it just tasted terrible. And she's like, no, you need to keep drinking. But it was not palatable.

• 1:23:58Rich Roll?

  So what's the fix that you came up with?

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  Um, well, basically what they told me in Colorado Springs at the Olympic Training Center was that I potentially need to dilute um, the concentration and just have not such a strong drink, but I need the fluid. So I went, I went from like three to four ounces to basically almost 12 ounces. And it just wasn't quite as strong of a concentration. I didn't necessarily need the sugars or the calories as much. I just needed the fluid to hydrate.

• 1:24:27Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. I think I read somewhere you started experimenting with like coconut water and with lemon, you know, squeezed into it and just getting more natural with everything.

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, Elise concocted that one.

• 1:24:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have a little um, homemade hydration drink that we love. That's a mix of um, fresh coconut water and mineral water, fresh squeezed um, lemon juice and a pinch of like really high quality sea salt. So you have the minerals and that helps you absorb the fluids.

• 1:24:54Rich Roll?

  I love that. You know, that's fantastic. And it's such a, you know, an appropriate response to this crazy industry of gels and sports drinks that all look like radioactive colors. And you know, like, like so many people are addicted to that stuff and I just don't, like, look, gels are, like when you're racing, gels can be great. They, they work because they are so highly concentrated in sugar. But, you know, what do you do day in, day out for training? Like you can't make that like a habit or a part of your core daily nutritional routine. It's insane.

• 1:25:29Speaker 02

  I think that also for Shalane, since she had was eating a whole foods diet at this point in her career, her body just wasn't used to the really processed sugar.

• 1:25:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, your microbiome changed.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  It like shut out. No, it's true. I said that. I was like, Elise, I'm so like deprogrammed from sugar that then on marathon day, slam all this sugar in my body and it like freaked out.

• 1:25:50Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, of course.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Sorry. No, it's true.

• 1:25:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not surprised at all. Like, I can't, I mean, I used to eat a lot of that stuff. I can't, I can't, I can't do it anymore.

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  You really lose the taste buds for it once you don't have it anymore.

• 1:26:05Rich Roll?

  Right. And it's interesting with, you know, recreational runners and sort of multi-sport athletes, there's a lot of people that just, they just so overdo it with that stuff. Even if they're going out for like a 45 minute run, I'll see people with camel backs and like all kinds of gel packs. I'm like, dude, you're not gonna die. You know, it's like, you'll be fine. Just water. You know, you don't have to bring anything. You're okay. You know, but marketing is so powerful. We've been led to believe that we need these products, that we can't like go out our front door, you know, and, and see something green without bringing something with us, or we're gonna wither and die. And it's absolute insanity.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  We went on a 13 mile trail run up at high altitude in the mountains of, in Ben last week, a week ago, Shalane and I, she dragged me and she didn't bring any water.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  I made you carry the water.

• 1:26:55Rich Roll?

  She doesn't need to. She's for her.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  I told you though, I was like, I'm efficient. I don't like, I do sweat heavily, but to me that like a 12 mile run, I don't need.

• 1:27:04Rich Roll?

  No, it doesn't tax you.

• 1:27:05Speaker 02

  But halfway, halfway through, she drank half my water.

• 1:27:07Rich Roll?

  Oh, she did? Oh, there's the secret, right?

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  Only because you offered it.

• 1:27:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:12Speaker 02

  And then I was dying at the end.

• 1:27:13Rich Roll?

  No. I mean, yeah, that's, that's another thing I think that mere mortals don't realize. Like, you're so adapted, you're so efficient at what you're doing, that for you to go out and run a couple hours with normal people is just not very taxing. You're, you're going on a walk, essentially.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:29Rich Roll?

  You know, it has the same sort of physiological effect on you. Alright, so we could spend all day going through your entire resume, but I do want to get to the Olympics. You know, you kind of bounced back from that trials experience and I think, you know, people, people wouldn't have been surprised if maybe you struggled in your recovery getting ready for Rio, but then you clock off like two insane races like before the Olympics, right? Like you broke, you just crushed your PR on the 10K by 11 seconds, right? Was that like an American record?

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I set the American record last fall and then, yeah, I broke it again in Boston.

• 1:28:08Rich Roll?

  Right, by like a huge amount. So that must have been a huge confidence booster going into Rio.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, well, it's hard sometimes because when you train for a marathon and you put in all this work and you know you're in great shape, all you have is one race to showcase for it. And sometimes it can be hard as an athlete because you work for three months and you only have one race to showcase. So for me, it's always fun to have some other races along the way as eye candy and reward for the hard work. And my coach picked out a half marathon where I ran like over a minute PR, which was great. And then had the 10K in Boston, which was just a dream race for me because I was home and

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  to set an American record is always fun, so.

• 1:28:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, always, right? It usually is.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  So yeah, it was great indication I was in basically in the best shape of my life. I've never run basically any PRs in the lead up to my marathon, so that was like, whoa. This is, you know, I may be like really on to something special here.

• 1:29:06Rich Roll?

  Right, and you had that great half marathon was in San Diego?

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, which was a really hilly, really hilly course.

• 1:29:13Rich Roll?

  And you won that, so you got to be going into Rio just like flying high.

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a lot of confidence, but you just never know how your competition is training. So even though I knew I was in the best shape of my life, you just don't know what other people are up to. And like I said, not many people race very often prior to a marathon. So I had no, I didn't know what my competition, how they were doing. And you, I always think, well, not everyone's going to show up healthy and not everyone's going to complete the race. So that takes out some people, but then some people are going to be in the best shape of their lives and they're going to have. The graces of their lives.

• 1:29:47Rich Roll?

  And it's the Olympics.

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:29:49Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:50Rich Roll?

  And I really liked the idea that you went to Rio before the Olympics and were you there for a week or training or something like sort of recon?

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  Just a few days. I'm a big recon person. I like doing that.

• 1:30:00Rich Roll?

  That's so smart, right? So then when you get to Rio, you're not all wide-eyed and wanting to do touristy things. Like you kind of did that and you can just focus on what you were there to do.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:30:10Rich Roll?

  Right? So, so in comparison to the other Olympic Games, what was your perspective going into this one? Like, were you feeling the pressure? Were you having fun? Was it a mix of both? I mean, you had three Olympiads of prior experience to inform how to approach this one.

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  I felt a mix of excitement, pressure, although pressure, I always say, is a privilege, that there's expectations of you and of yourself. And, but at the same time, I felt like I was gonna, it was important to savor it because I don't plan on competing in another Olympics. That's not been a goal of mine. I have visions of other adventures in my life and I love that.

• 1:30:52Rich Roll?

  You've been pretty, you've gone on the record and said that this was your last Olympics.

• 1:30:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I don't see how it would happen. I think I'd rather help other athletes get to that level. But who knows what, what's gonna happen? But as of right now, it's not a goal, it's not a goal of mine to make Tokyo. Let's put it that way.

• 1:31:12Rich Roll?

  I got you.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  So I was trying to like, just to savor the experience and knowing that it was probably gonna be my last Olympics. So it was a mixture of kind of nostalgia and being appreciative and, but wanting to execute just and showcase the hard work I put in and the, all, you know, all the work that people had helped me to get there.

• 1:31:32Rich Roll?

  Is it, was it a course that you think favored your strengths?

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  I don't, I think it favored really anyone. It wasn't a very technical course, to be honest. So we got down there and I think if anything, what eased my mind going down in April was that it was a beautiful country, the people were nice. Yes, it's a little like, you know, a little seedy here and there and it has its, its issues. But in general, it made me excited to come back and I wasn't fearful of it. I think there was a lot of fear.

• 1:31:58Rich Roll?

  The hype of like bodies washing up on the shore and all that kind of stuff.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  And whatever. And so it made me excited to come back, which made me excited to train for the marathon and which made me excited to go perform. So it was very worthwhile going down. I'm appreciative my coach had us go do that. And but the course itself, we walked away thinking, you know, it's it's a it's just a simple course. It's nothing complicated, except for the last 5K. And that's exactly where I got dropped. Um, the last 5K had a lot of tight turns and it was very technical, which at the end of a race, technicality at the end of a race is hard. It was a lot of sharp turns and I was not taking the turns very well. Um, I felt like a granny kind of going trying to ease into them instead of being aggressive off of them. And um,

• 1:32:46Speaker 01

  I that's where I ended up losing contact was in some of those turns, thinking they were just right in front of me. And no, they'd actually like pulled away. So.

• 1:32:55Rich Roll?

  Right. So so ultimately you end up sixth. Yes. Uh, and despite not meddling, it's this incredible kind of performance by the American women, right? Going what 6, 8th and 10th or something like that?

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  6th, 7th and 9th.

• 1:33:09Rich Roll?

  6th, 7th and 9th. Okay. I almost got it.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:12Rich Roll?

  Uh, which is unprecedented, right? It's incredibly strong showing for American female marathoners in the United States.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm very proud. It was when I finished and I turned around and there comes Desi coming down the straightaway. And we turned around and there's Amy coming down the straightaway. So it was it was a very powerful moment. I felt a lot of um, I just was proud that we could come and just showcase our fitness and just show that we were legitimate contenders on any given day. One of us could have been on that podium. It didn't happen to be our day, but we are legitimate contenders.

• 1:33:50Rich Roll?

  What do people not fully appreciate or understand about the Olympic experience of like being an athlete in the like in the Olympics, like being in the middle of the whole thing?

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  I think people at home are there thinking, oh, my God, it's like this giant party and it's so fun. And it's like

• 1:34:08Rich Roll?

  We hear about they're handing out all the condoms to all the athletes and all that kind of stuff. And then Ryan Lochte is doing whatever he's doing and you know.

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think they think it's just like one giant party and like you're just like on vacation. But if you're really there trying to get a medal, you are not on vacation. And half the time, you don't even know what's going on there. Like you don't know who's winning medals because you're just so focused on what you need to do day in, day out to prepare that you half the time don't even know what's going on in the other events until after yours is done. And so it's not quite as glamorous as I think they make it at home.

• 1:34:41Rich Roll?

  Also, because you're not at home, you don't know what's going on in America, like what people are freaking out about.

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, the media picks out certain athletes and certain stories. And so when I get home, I always try to like sift through like, what happened during the Olympics? I don't even know. Like, wow, that was a great performance. That's so cool.

• 1:35:01Rich Roll?

  Do you go and watch other, other events or you're just doing your thing?

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  I have in the past. This time around, I was not able to go do any other events. It was kind of in and out. And then Elise and I had the book tour coming up, so I wanted to get home.

• 1:35:15Rich Roll?

  And how was the food in the village? Did you stay in the village?

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  I didn't stay in the village again.

• 1:35:19Rich Roll?

  Did you bring all your own food?

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that, you know, endurance events, like food's really important and making sure. And after having gotten food poisoning, I was like, you know what? I think I'm going to kind of control things a little bit more. And I put all this hard work in just to have it ruined at the last moment. That's devastating. So we stayed at a hotel right near the marathon course and I was able to bring quite a bit of food from home. You know, oatmeal and dried fruits and nuts, things that I, it's kind of a safety. But that's always a big concern as an endurance athlete is like, what can I actually eat? And we had fortunately, um, something set up by the USOC and USATF. And we had a site where we had some chefs from like Colorado Springs were flown in and they were preparing foods for us if we wanted to go eat there.

• 1:36:03Rich Roll?

  Wow. So did you have a kitchen where you were staying?

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:36:06Rich Roll?

  No, you didn't.

• 1:36:07Speaker 01

  No, but we had a great hotel, which actually had really great food. And we checked that out in April to make sure we had something where we'd be comfortable.

• 1:36:14Rich Roll?

  Right. So maybe walk us through a day in the life of food.

• 1:36:20Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:36:21Rich Roll?

  I feel bad that Elise is sitting there quietly, so I want to bring her back in.

• 1:36:24Speaker 01

  Here, Elise can tell you what I eat on a day to day basis.

• 1:36:27Speaker 02

  You want me to tell you what?

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, no. Well, you know what I eat, basically. Um. Cause we outline it in the cookbook.

• 1:36:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:36:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:34Speaker 02

  So, Shalane's typical day, like if, if she's getting out for an early training session, she'll typically have a lighter breakfast. A go to is um, our Can't Beat Me smoothie. And it has, Shalane is a big fan of beets. They're really great, um, great food for.

• 1:36:48Rich Roll?

  It's the best pre-workout.

• 1:36:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, for athletes, like who eats beets before workout?

• 1:36:51Rich Roll?

  Just don't freak out when you go to the bathroom.

• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Um, but this smoothie is, is really satisfying. It has almond butter in it and coconut water and frozen blueberries, frozen banana beets. Um, so it gives you a really good energy boost. And the, and the ginger is great for digestion and great for fighting inflammation. Um, it's really hydrating and the fat in there from the almond butter, um, really keeps, keeps you satisfied longer. So that's a good, quick, right before, um, heading out the door for a workout. She has that or, um, her famous race day oatmeal bowl, which is oats with, mixed with, um, banana and almond butter and any variation of toppings, honey or cinnamon or, or nuts, um, dried fruit.

• 1:37:35Speaker 02

  And then typically like a heartier, um, breakfast or brunch or lunch when, when she gets back from training, depending on what time of day that is. So, um, a go to is definitely a big grain salad because you can make it in advance and have it ready to go when you walk in the door. As an athlete, there's nothing worse than walking in the door and being hangry and having to, um, cook something. You're, that's when you're likely gonna grab a bag of chips and inhale it as fast as possible. Um, so having, um, I've taught Shalane to, to cook in big quantities and have it ready to go when you walk back in the door from a workout. So, um, a big hearty grain salad or a quinoa salad. One of Shalane's favorites from the book is the Wild West Rice Salad, which

• 1:38:16Speaker 02

  has, um, rice and edamame, which is a great combination because then you get a complete protein. And all of our, um, salads and, the salad sounds like light and you would think like as an athlete, like that's not going to satisfy me after a. But when you're using like a homemade rich salad dressing with olive oil, you're getting a lot of really great nourishing fats in there. And that helps. A lot of people don't think of fat, they think of protein, protein, protein for recovery, but fat is just as important. So that's, that's a good lunch. And then Shalane always has a snack before her second run of the day. And it's, we have a, we have a big section in the book called wholesome treats, because that was Shalane's, like that's her chapter.

• 1:39:00Speaker 02

  She gets a craving for, for a sweet treat, but we, we want to make sure that we're providing foods that are easy to digest. So all of our wholesome treats are free of refined sugar and refined flour, which is just empty calories. And instead, we use a lot of almond flour. We use whole grain flours and we sneak like veggies into, into our wholesome treats. And they're really satisfying. And we use a lot of coconut oil and coconut flakes and, and things in our treats.

• 1:39:29Rich Roll?

  Do you, for sweetening, like what do you use? Like dates and honey?

• 1:39:34Speaker 02

  Shalane loves the giddy up energy bars, which are made with dates. Our, our other baked goods, we use either, we have an amazing granola recipe in the book that's vegan and it's made with coconut oil and molasses. And molasses are an incredible sweetener for athletes because they're really high in iron. And when you're, especially for Shalane, training at high altitude, she needs a lot of iron in her diet. And then honey and maple syrup are, are less refined. So you're getting good minerals in there and it's not going to give you the sugar high and the crash. It's going to stay with you longer and have more sustained energy.

• 1:40:09Rich Roll?

  I like how in the book, at the end, you have all these sections on, you know, sort of things that come up as an athlete or as a runner. Like if you deal with anemia or if you're dealing with, you know, some kind of extreme fatigue, like here are some recipes oriented around that. Like it's very specific to the kind of things that come up for the typical athlete, which I thought was great.

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's our runner's remedy section. And it's amazing, like a lot of runners suffer from the same consistent issues. So we were able to summarize those like top 10 injuries or conditions that runners face. And, and we use food for healing, not just, not just for fuel and not just for recovery, but it can help you. I worked with Shalane when she had that little niggle in her foot to drink some mineral-rich brews to like help heal faster and things like that.

• 1:40:58Rich Roll?

  So the book is Run Fast, Eat Slow. So tell me what you mean by eat slow.

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  So the title means so much more than just running fast. We want, this cookbook isn't just for runners, but anyone who wants to live an active life. And the Run Fast represents that we're all running around like crazy, whether you're taking care of a toddler or you're working a crazy job. Like, we all are living these really fast-paced lives and our lives don't seem conducive to taking the time to cook. So we want to teach people the importance of slowing down and getting in the kitchen. And Shalane and I believe wholeheartedly that the single greatest thing that an athlete of any level can do to improve their performance, other than running more miles, logging more time at the gym, is to get in the kitchen and cook and learn how to cook real food from scratch. So the Eat

• 1:41:45Speaker 02

  Slow represents, like, literally chewing your food slowly so that you can enjoy it.

• 1:41:50Rich Roll?

  How dare you.

• 1:41:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, people have forgotten to chew their food and you don't get as much, you can't absorb as much nutrients from it. Slowing down to eat, it's great for digestion, it's great for making sure that, like, you know when you're full. When you're inhaling your food, you're not gonna, you're usually gonna overeat, overeat. But then, more than that, on a bigger level, it's respecting where our ingredients come from, respecting our planet. We're big on the slow food movement and supporting small, local farmers. We're blessed here in Portland with incredible access to seasonal ingredients and eating with the seasons, because food that's picked at the peak of freshness not only tastes better, but it's also better for you.

• 1:42:31Rich Roll?

  Of course, you know. People are always saying to me, you know, "Oh, it's great what you do, but like, I don't have time, like, you don't understand my life." And it's like, make time, you know? Make time. Like, what is more important than your health? And when you can focus on these issues, it's truly transformative and it's worthy of the attention. And I think that when you, you know, can clear out other areas of your life or dis- so that you can slow down and focus on these things it can profoundly change how you live on a daily basis

• 1:43:06Speaker 02

  yeah I mean if Shalane can get in the kitchen and cook every day for herself while she's running these insane miles then I think the rest of us can too and we

• 1:43:15Rich Roll?

  and being a foster mom to two teenage twins

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  or they cook for me that's that's the other thing I'm teaching them how to cook

• 1:43:26Rich Roll?

  no it's yeah I think there's there's perhaps another misconception about you know professional Nike Olympic athlete that there's a phalanx of you know assistants swirling around you at all times attending to your needs and you know giving you you know pedicures while you're getting massage or whatever

• 1:43:44Speaker 02

  oh man no I I used to think that Shalane lived this glamorous life but getting to work on this book with her for the last couple years like I definitely don't envy her lifestyle like I have seen her masseuse I saw him today and it's the most painful massage you've ever had it's not relaxing

• 1:44:00Rich Roll?

  not what you think of

• 1:44:00Speaker 02

  and you would think when Shalane's at high altitude camp training camps that they would have a professional chef come in and have their meals at the ready but usually it's Shalane cooking for the rest of her team

• 1:44:10Rich Roll?

  that's so funny have you done cupping this was like the Olympics of cupping like suddenly it's all about cupping like

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  it was like out of the gate like from this obscure practice like I've heard of it I know people that do it but suddenly like I've known about it for years yeah I personally have only had cupping a few times I just haven't needed it but it's amazing how trendy things can get I remember if you used like the past couple Olympics um kinesio tape was like the end thing and you know groundbreaking revolutionary but yeah cupping apparently because Phelps you know had cupping marks all over and people like why is he had these giant hickies all over him but yeah cupping

• 1:44:50Rich Roll?

  he's that popular so you've you have tried it though in the past

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  yeah um actually my massage therapist Ryan knows how to do it as well and it's a good good modality and technique I just haven't needed it per se um but yeah it's it's good

• 1:45:07Rich Roll?

  What, um, oh, here's what I wanted to ask you. Did you get permission from Nike to use the Nike font for your cookbook?

• 1:45:17Rich Roll?

  It's the exact same type set, isn't it?

• 1:45:19Speaker 01

  It's not the exact same.

• 1:45:20Rich Roll?

  It looks really close.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:45:22Rich Roll?

  That was intentional.

• 1:45:23Speaker 02

  True story. I, I worked at Nike for 10 years.

• 1:45:27Rich Roll?

  You have the font, right? In your Photoshop?

• 1:45:29Speaker 02

  No. We went through 33 iterations of the cover before Shalane and I were satisfied. And in the end, we actually brought in our friend who is a creative director at Nike to help us with our cover. Cause we were just, we really wanted it to speak on so many different levels. We didn't want it just to be our pretty faces on the cover, like smiling in the kitchen. We tried that and it wasn't working for us and they tried to.

• 1:45:52Rich Roll?

  That's the typical cookbook-like cover, right? It has to have food.

• 1:45:56Speaker 02

  We didn't want just one dish.

• 1:45:57Rich Roll?

  And/or the faces of the chefs standing in the kitchen.

• 1:45:59Speaker 01

  We wanted something fresh and cutting edge and.

• 1:46:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's cool. It's like counter-programming. It works like it's, it's actually a really beautiful book. You guys did a really great job design-wise.

• 1:46:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we worked with a local photographer here in Portland, Alan, and he just went above and beyond the call of duty of a photographer on a book. Like he followed us around and he really got to be involved in the book and we really appreciate that.

• 1:46:22Rich Roll?

  We gotta wrap it up here in a minute, but I have a couple more questions if you'll indulge me. What, what, uh, people want to know this, like what, what do, if any, do you supplement with? Like you take multivitamins, protein powders, like all the athletes want to know about this kind of thing.

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  Um, I take an iron pill to supplement, just to ensure that I'm getting as much iron as possible, cause I deplete it very easily when I go up to altitude. And because I do so much pounding and so much running, it can easily drop low. So I eat so many dishes naturally that would probably keep it high enough. I just ensure it's like my safety net. So I'll take one pill, like a nature's made iron and that is all I take. That is it. There's nothing else.

• 1:47:12Rich Roll?

  No, that's so refreshing, you know? Thank you.

• 1:47:17Rich Roll?

  People think that you need all these crazy supplements. You just don't, I don't think. I mean, certainly, everybody should get blood tested. And if you have a deficiency, then you need to address that. So I'm not saying supplements don't have their place. But I think so many people push it to the forefront and they try to meet certain nutritional requirements via supplements as opposed to real food.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  It's way more fun to eat, to me.

• 1:47:42Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  It's also like, it gives, when you're taking a supplement, you, it's like an excuse, like, "Oh, I'm taking a supplement. I don't have to try as hard in the kitchen." I take a supplement when I travel because I feel like I'm not getting like the nutrition that my body is used to. And I am always like susceptible to getting, catching something when I'm on the road. I tend to like, that's the only time I ever get sick is when I'm on a flight or something. So that's when I'll take a supplement. But otherwise, if I'm at home, like, I don't want to take a supplement because I want to make sure I'm making the effort to cook those real foods and get it naturally.

• 1:48:15Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's great. Now that you're sort of said that you're not going back to the Olympics. We'll see if that's the case. There's still one kind of big goal looming out there for you though, right? Which is the Boston Marathon.

• 1:48:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:31Rich Roll?

  So what are you thinking right now?

• 1:48:34Speaker 01

  I can't officially say what my plans are yet. But knowing that that's really where my heart is and lies and I'm, I'm only going to do things that I'm passionate about at this point. I have some great accolades behind me and accomplished so much that I feel very fulfilled with my career. But there is one piece that is very much missing. And I feel in order to honor my goals and what I've done, I need to just still pursue that.

• 1:49:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So we will look forward to seeing you lining up in Boston at some point, right?

• 1:49:10Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 1:49:11Rich Roll?

  And you're starting to coach a little bit?

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  Well-

• 1:49:14Rich Roll?

  Is that happening yet?

• 1:49:15Speaker 01

  I've always loved helping other athletes and I've done it for-

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  For a long time now, I've coached at collegiate level. I have done little kids, but I haven't officially really coached per se like with my own teammates. I just feel like I'm a older sister to many of them, but I at some point would love to switch over and help work with my coach and help the women that are currently on the team to some capacity or in another avenue, but I definitely see myself at some point being more of a mentor.

• 1:49:49Rich Roll?

  Great. I love that. Well, there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast who are avid multi-sport athletes and it ranges from professional down to people that are looking at doing their very first 5K. So I thought it would be cool if maybe you could perhaps impart a little wisdom to those out there who are tackling their first running adventure or maybe kind of address some of the most common mistakes that you see people make.

• 1:50:20Speaker 01

  When people say if they want to like improve their running or enjoy or not just running, but just want to improve their experience and be motivated to keep working at it, I always say that, and this is very biased, but I think that one of the greatest things you can do is find someone to do it with. It's my belief. I feel that if you really want to enjoy it, it's you find a buddy and you have the accountability and you're going to push yourself harder than you thought you could and you're going to get more out of yourself and it's going to be, it's not going to feel like a chore. It's going to feel fun and it's just a better experience. So.

• 1:51:00Rich Roll?

  Community, accountability and the fun factor.

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  And sharing. So that may be kind of a lame answer, but.

• 1:51:06Rich Roll?

  What about in all these, you know, marathoning is very interesting because it's the one, other than triathlon, it's like the one kind of event where the pros are amongst the mere mortals. So you've seen a lot of people, a lot of mere mortals running marathons. Like in your observation, you know, when you watch that and you go. Why is that guy doing that? Doesn't he know that if he did this, he could be so much better without having to really change anything?

• 1:51:31Speaker 01

  I don't know if I've seen that. Have you ever seen? I don't know.

• 1:51:35Rich Roll?

  Elise is shaking, she's nodding, yeah.

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  We joke about like people like slamming stuff down right before, even though they never eat before.

• 1:51:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, the they'll get, people get so excited. They get to these big marathons and they get to these expos and they are enamored and they want to try out every new gadget that there is out there and they haven't trained with it the entire time.

• 1:51:56Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:51:56Speaker 01

  And they're there.

• 1:51:56Rich Roll?

  They're doing everything new on race day.

• 1:51:58Speaker 01

  And they are literally doing everything new on race day. And I'm, that, that's true. That's good, Elise. I would have never thought of that. They do everything completely different than what they did in training. And I'm always shaking my head like, what are you doing?

• 1:52:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Never do anything new on race day.

• 1:52:13Speaker 02

  We were at the Boston Expo together and just like couldn't believe the number of free samples that people were like gathering in bagfuls as if they were trick or treating.

• 1:52:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, that's, that's what the expo is all about, right? Do you run, uh, do you run with a heart, heart rate monitor? Is heart rate monitor like a part of what you do?

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  It's not part of my training now. It was when I was more self-coached. So that's a great point. I would definitely recommend if you're being self-coached and you just need to monitor yourself, the heart rate monitor is a great asset and tool. It told me a lot. When I didn't have a coach around, it would tell me the efforts and, you know, accountability of running harder or easier that I, what I need to do that day. So yeah, heart rate monitor is a great, great tool, but I don't currently use it, but I can see where in certain circumstances, it's, it's a great.

• 1:53:00Rich Roll?

  What do you, what are some of your race day rituals?

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  Race day rituals?

• 1:53:04Rich Roll?

  You, you eat your oatmeal.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  I have my race day oatmeal for sure. I'm a little bit superstitious. I always like to have the number eight for some reason, whether it's on the, my hotel room number or my bib number. I have to like see, it's like a omen to me. If I see the number eight, it's really good luck in Chinese. It's what the infinity sign and.

• 1:53:27Rich Roll?

  A symmetry.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And for some reason, whenever I've had the number eight.

• 1:53:32Rich Roll?

  But you can't control that, right?

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  No, I know, but that's great. It's like this, whether it's meant to be or not. But that is one of my little superstitions, but.

• 1:53:41Rich Roll?

  Have you ever gotten the number eight and then had a bad race?

• 1:53:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:53:44Rich Roll?

  No, never?

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:53:46Rich Roll?

  Ah, interesting.

• 1:53:48Speaker 01

  Uh, but race day rituals, no, I mean, I'm, I'm pretty normal. I would think I would wake up about four hours before I compete. Um, I'll hop in the shower just to kind of like wake myself up and grab my food, my breakfast, and then just kind of stretch out and get focused. I'm pretty, I know that a lot of things could, could go wrong, so I try not to be too rigid, like, or not go wrong, but things can always change and you have to be adaptable. So I try not to get too rigid about my schedule.

• 1:54:18Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And always eating the same thing, never doing anything new, hopefully getting number eight. Right?

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:26Rich Roll?

  And what about like how you interact with your competitors?

• 1:54:29Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 1:54:30Rich Roll?

  Like, are you the friendly person or are you putting on?

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  I'm friendly after.

• 1:54:33Rich Roll?

  You have Phelps face on? Or you probably missed Phelps face because you were actually there. Did you hear about that?

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I didn't hear about that.

• 1:54:40Rich Roll?

  See, that's the thing, right? Like, that's all anyone was talking about.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:54:43Rich Roll?

  He was making a weird face in the, in the sort of green room before his race.

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:54:48Rich Roll?

  Because somebody was trying to psych him out and it became like this crazy meme on the internet.

• 1:54:52Speaker 01

  Really? I'll have to check this out later.

• 1:54:54Rich Roll?

  I'll show you later. But anyway.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  I'm pretty serious.

• 1:54:57Rich Roll?

  You put on like, just look straight ahead.

• 1:55:00Speaker 01

  I am very lighthearted around my coach and my teammates. I like to feel like it's just practice and that lightheartedness. But if I am near my competition, I'm not, I'm not one to be like hanging out.

• 1:55:12Rich Roll?

  Trash talking during the race?

• 1:55:13Speaker 01

  No, trash talking, no.

• 1:55:14Rich Roll?

  You seem way too sweet for that.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  No trash talking.

• 1:55:18Rich Roll?

  That goes on though, right? Well, it does with the men.

• 1:55:20Speaker 01

  No, a little, sometimes it will happen. No, there's never, because sometimes there's language barriers with my competition. Um, no, I've gotten a lot of like the shaking the finger thing. I'll get, you know, if like they get too, if I get too close to them or I like clip them or if, you know, like people are wanting to get to different positions, there's a lot of this finger shaking. That's, that's a common language of like, no, you better not do that.

• 1:55:42Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  And sometimes I'll, I'll be like, uh-uh, honey, that's my spot.

• 1:55:46Rich Roll?

  But no full-on catfights?

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:55:49Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  No, not yet.

• 1:55:52Rich Roll?

  All right, I'm gonna let you guys go, but this was really great. Thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed talking to you.

• 1:55:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:59Rich Roll?

  Congratulations on all the success. The book is a brand new New York Times bestseller. Congrats on that. And you guys are in the midst of a big book tour. If people want to connect with you guys and find you, I'm sure you have a schedule on the website. You have where you're gonna be and everything?

• 1:56:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, our website is runfasteatslow.com and we have all of our events on there. And then we do a lot of social media posting when we're around in different cities.

• 1:56:25Rich Roll?

  So maybe, where can people find you on social?

• 1:56:28Speaker 02

  What is mine? Mine is @ShalaneVlanigan. And @EliseKopecki.

• 1:56:33Rich Roll?

  For both Instagram and Twitter, right?

• 1:56:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:35Speaker 02

  And are you gonna come run with us tonight?

• 1:56:37Rich Roll?

  Ah, you're running tonight?

• 1:56:39Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:56:40Rich Roll?

  Ooh, I ran this morning, but maybe, I don't know, are you guys gonna go fast or slow?

• 1:56:44Speaker 02

  Well...

• 1:56:45Rich Roll?

  If you're going slow...

• 1:56:46Speaker 02

  We're leading 150 people on a run.

• 1:56:48Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  It's probably slow.

• 1:56:50Rich Roll?

  Where is that happening?

• 1:56:50Speaker 02

  Down on the waterfront.

• 1:56:51Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:56:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:53Rich Roll?

  What time?

• 1:56:53Speaker 02

  At 6:34.

• 1:56:55Rich Roll?

  Ooh, maybe I'll do that. That sounds like fun.

• 1:56:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, right down at Nike Town. And at the end of the run, there's gonna be food catered from our cookbook by a chef, a local chef in Portland.

• 1:57:04Rich Roll?

  Oh wow, cool. Awesome. Excellent. All right, so where are you gonna be in the next couple of days, or next week maybe? Because I'm gonna put this up right away, I think.

• 1:57:13Speaker 02

  We're headed to San Francisco next week, and then Seattle. So the first part of next week will be in San Francisco and the Bay Area. We're doing a run along the Embarcadero and a book signing and book talk. And then we're also doing a chef in the Bay Area at a restaurant in Lurkspur is gonna be cooking a bunch of recipes from our book. And we're gonna have a fun lunch with some of our fans. And then we head up to Seattle and we'll be doing two events at two local bookstores in Seattle. So we'd love to see our West Coast fans this next week.

• 1:57:43Rich Roll?

  All right, you guys, everybody go out and go, are you gonna do running events at all of these, or some of these?

• 1:57:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, at least half of them.

• 1:57:50Rich Roll?

  Fun runs.

• 1:57:50Speaker 02

  I didn't realize when I signed up for this book that I had to run in so many cities with Shalane.

• 1:57:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You gotta, you have to walk your talk.

• 1:57:58Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:57:59Rich Roll?

  Right? Cool. All right, thanks so much, you guys.

• 1:58:02Speaker 02

  Thanks. Thank you.

• 1:58:03Rich Roll?

  Peace. Plants.

• 1:58:11Rich Roll?

  All right, we did it. I hope you guys enjoyed that deep dive and got a lot out of it. As always, please make a point of checking out the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. I've got tons of links and resources there to further edify your mind with the world of Shalane and Elise. If you haven't already, please make a point of subscribing to Roll Call. It's my new, free, short, weekly email blast that goes out every Thursday, packed with just a few tips and tools and resources and things that I've enjoyed. I've put out eight already. I'm not sharing this information anywhere else. It's not going up on my blog. So if you want in, you just have to subscribe, and it's free. You can do that at richroll.com. Of course, if you want some great Plant Power schwag, go to

• 1:58:56Rich Roll?

  richroll.com. I've got signed copies of Finding Ultra and The Plant Power Way. We've got cool Plant Power t-shirts. We've got tech tees. We've got stickers. All kinds of cool stuff. And I also want to thank everybody who helped put on today's show. This is a collaborative effort. We're a team. Jason Camiolo, thanks so much for all your audio engineering and production assistance on the episode. Sean Patterson, he's the guy who creates all these amazing graphics. Chris Swan for additional production assistance. He's also the guy who helps me craft all the show notes for every episode. It's a lot of work, so thank you, Chris. And of course, theme music by Analemma. Thanks for all the support, you guys. I love you. I'll see you soon. Peace. Plants.