Operation Mincemeat | The Perfect Body | 1

Intelligence officers Charles Cholmondeley and Ewen Montagu must prove their audacious - and downright disgusting - plan can fool the Nazis, change the course of WW2, and save thousands of lives. But for that, they need a body. Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Forde?

  Just a warning at the start, this episode contains swearing, bad Spanish and descriptions of a dead body.

• 0:08Matt Forde?

  Alice, thank you so much for letting me house sit in your home for the last couple of weeks while we got some work done at ours. It's been a huge favour.

• 0:17Matt Forde?

  There is a little bit of good news and a little bit of bad news.

• 0:20Alice Levine?

  Oh, um, okay, I guess hit me with the bad news.

• 0:24Matt Forde?

  Okay, so that parcel you wanted me to wait in for, um, I was out when they tried to deliver it.

• 0:31Alice Levine?

  Oh, I mean, come on, uh, well, hit me with the good news then.

• 0:35Matt Forde?

  Well, the fire that I started, the chip pan fire in the kitchen, although it guttered the entire ground floor, the upstairs, bar a bit of smoke damage, is basically unscathed.

• 0:45Alice Levine?

  Matt, oh my God, why didn't you call me? I don't, I don't, I don't know what to say. I think I'm gonna cry.

• 0:52Matt Forde?

  Alice, look, I know it's big, but don't worry. They've said they'll redeliver it on Wednesday.

• 1:01Matt Forde?

  30th of April, 1943, Andalusia, Spain. Jose Antonio Raymaria grips the side of his small skiff fishing boat, scans for the unmistakable flash of sardines. Mierda!

• 1:17Alice Levine?

  Murder? Shit?

• 1:18Matt Forde?

  Shit.

• 1:19Alice Levine?

  Shit.

• 1:20Matt Forde?

  The sun is beginning to rise, so is the heat. Jose has been out here for hours. Papa? Jose glances back at his eight-year-old son, his gaunt, expectant face on top of skinny shoulders. Tries not to let the worry show on his face. Franco, Spain is starving. Eggs are a luxury and potatoes barely affordable. If they don't catch something today, they'll go hungry tonight.

• 1:49Matt Forde?

  Jose's legs fold underneath him as a violent gust of wind sends the boat lurching. He tightens his hold on the side of the vessel and scrambles back to his feet. ¡Corre, les cabos! He shouts to his son, throwing a length of rope. He hears a low, unmistakable rumble of thunder. The sky around them is darkening. Fat raindrops are falling across the chipped paintwork of the skiff. A glance at the distant shoreline tells them they have to set off now.

• 2:18Matt Forde?

  He digs the oars into the sea and begins to row, pushes through the force of the swelling waves. Water is pouring onto the deck. Jose keeps his gaze fixed on the beach and wills himself to keep going. Papa, chutado! A dark shape floats straight into their path. Jose paddles hard with his left oar, tries to veer the boat clear. Then he sees the glinting buttons of a British military uniform.

• 2:48Alice Levine?

  Okay, was very prepared for that to be a whale.

• 2:51Matt Forde?

  Oh, but it could be one of those whales that served. And we just want to take a moment to thank all the whales that served our great country.

• 3:02Matt Forde?

  He takes in its pale, mottled skin, eyes open and baconed. He reaches out to cover his son's eyes. It's too late. They both stare at the figure in silence.

• 3:14Matt Forde?

  Jose looks around for spilled oil, signs of a sunken vessel.

• 3:19Matt Forde?

  Another wave lifts the body towards them. He catches sight of the man's tousled brown hair, his thin youthful face. He thinks of the man's mother, a girlfriend waiting desperately for news. Jose grabs an arm. He and his son must at all their strength to haul the body aboard. They retch as the rotting smell hits their nostrils. A flash of gold catches Jose's eye, a single crown insignia on the man's shoulder. A shiver runs down his spine. This was a man of rank. Jose notices something else in the water, a chain attached to the body's wrist with a briefcase.

• 4:01Matt Forde?

  Jose pulls it up onto the deck and rows as hard as he can towards the shore. As the boat grinds into the sand, Jose hears his own rasping voice wearily yell for help.

• 4:12Matt Forde?

  Ayuda! Fishermen are surrounding him. Jose falls back onto the beach. He struggles to make out a low-voiced argument nearby. The men's attention is no longer on the body. Instead, they're fighting over the contents of the sodden briefcase.

• 4:29Matt Forde?

  Jose realizes whoever they've just pulled from the sea is no ordinary soldier. They have just found the body of a very important man.

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• 6:17Alice Levine?

  From Audible, I'm Alice Levine.

• 6:19Matt Forde?

  And I'm Matt Ford.

• 6:20Alice Levine?

  And this is British Scandal, the show where we bring you the murkiest stories that ever happened on these odd little isles.

• 6:28Matt Forde?

  British scandals come in many shapes and sizes. Some are about money, some are about sex, they're all about power.

• 6:34Alice Levine?

  But when we look at scandals a bit closer, they turn out to be stranger, wilder, just plain weirder than we remember.

• 6:41Matt Forde?

  So we're journeying back to ask who's to blame for what happened.

• 6:44Alice Levine?

  And when the dust settled, did anything really change?

• 6:58Matt Forde?

  Alice, do you like spy stories?

• 7:00Alice Levine?

  I do, you know I do.

• 7:02Matt Forde?

  Do you like zombie stories?

• 7:03Alice Levine?

  Uh, not so much.

• 7:05Matt Forde?

  You scared?

• 7:06Alice Levine?

  Yeah.

• 7:07Matt Forde?

  Do you like zombie spy stories?

• 7:09Alice Levine?

  Okay, I didn't actually know that was a genre.

• 7:11Matt Forde?

  Okay, but I think you may have heard of Operation Mince Meat.

• 7:15Alice Levine?

  Oh my God, not only have I heard of it, I absolutely adored the musical. It is such a brilliant, funny, moving, ridiculous, surreal story. And I would go into it again if you'd go with me.

• 7:32Matt Forde?

  I would love to go with you because I've never seen it and I've been desperate to see it. I've seen the film and I am delighted that we are doing this as a British Scandal series. This story takes place at a really interesting point in the war. In 1942, Britain is actually losing. The Germans keep cracking our codes. They always know where the British are gonna be. So we are trying to come up with a plan to deceive the Nazis. And this is one of the wildest, most audacious plans in the history of war. And it really employs a theatrical cinematic approach that you don't really usually associate with the military. And you can see why the show of this was a huge West End hit and still is, and then was a massive hit off Broadway as well.

• 8:15Matt Forde?

  Because actually, the roots of this story are theatrical flourishes that feel really unusual in 1940s wartime Britain. Strap in because this is one of the most incredible things the British Army has ever done. This is episode one, The Perfect Body.

• 8:38Matt Forde?

  Seven months earlier, 29th of October 1942. The old Admiralty Building, Whitehall, London.

• 8:47Matt Forde?

  Charles Chumley takes a cone from his briefcase and fixes a stubborn strand of hair back into place. The toilet mirror offers little encouragement. He's 25, thin and impossibly tall. His thick tortoiseshell spectacles gleaming, a grim reminder of everything he isn't. As soon as war broke out, he joined the RAF, desperate to follow in his older brother's footsteps. But just three minutes into his eye test, he was told he'd never fly a Spitfire. For the last three years, it's been desks, files and forms.

• 9:23Alice Levine?

  I'm sure it still happens a lot, but I do feel like ever so slightly bad eyesight used to just dash a lot of dreams, didn't it, of all sorts?

• 9:34Matt Forde?

  If you had bad eyesight back then, you weren't allowed to fly the RAF, you weren't allowed to marry, you weren't allowed to vote, because they couldn't be sure that your X had gone in the right box.

• 9:43Alice Levine?

  Exactly. You were a second-class citizen. And I say that as somebody with terrible eyesight. I'm so glad I'm alive in 2026.

• 9:51Matt Forde?

  Alice, you're talking to the planet again. I'm over here.

• 9:56Matt Forde?

  He looks out of the window at a bombed office building. He's been seconded to MI5, and he's determined to make a good impression. He takes a deep breath, squares his shoulders and fixes a smile. Pulls open the heavy oak doors to the underground war rooms. He lets his eyes adjust to the dimly lit room, clouded in a thick fog of tobacco smoke. Maps of Europe cover the walls. The long boardroom table is laden with files.

• 10:26Alice Levine?

  Oh, a fog of tobacco smoke. You don't get that anymore, do you?

• 10:31Matt Forde?

  Certainly not underground.

• 10:32Alice Levine?

  You'd get a fog of vape triple watermelon, and it doesn't really set the same tone.

• 10:38Matt Forde?

  Pluming out behind some hipster's face. Whereas back then what we did was we went into airtight rooms and we all smoked.

• 10:46Alice Levine?

  Like real, man.

• 10:47Matt Forde?

  And that's how we won the war. Nobody notices Charles at the entrance. Everyone is speaking over each other, determined to have their voices heard. It's too obvious. The Germans will be waiting for us. We'll get slaughtered. Charles tentatively shuffles in as a statesman-like man rises to his feet. He has a handsome dignified face and silver street hair. His voice cuts through the melee. Quiet! Charles follows the clipped Titonian accent of his new boss. Colonel Johnny Bevan, Britain's controller of deception. A thin-faced man with a receding hairline. Churchill wants Sicily. Needs Sicily.

• 11:31Alice Levine?

  I know the feeling. When you've had a tough time, you want your two weeks, the food, the sights, the people.

• 11:37Matt Forde?

  As well as all that, obviously the context of 1940 is important. Italy is an ally of Nazi Germany. Obviously Sicily sits off the coast. You've got British troops in Africa. Then Allied troops see Sicily as that springboard into then securing Europe. But obviously if Hitler fortifies Sicily, the mission is then near impossible. So MI5 needed to convince Hitler that they want to secure Europe but via another route, and they want to try and convince him they're going to do it via Greece.

• 12:10Alice Levine?

  Okay, so it's sort of a decoy. They're like, go look at Greece, while actually they are in Tormena.

• 12:16Matt Forde?

  Exactly. They're dirty little British liars.

• 12:20Matt Forde?

  Bevan claps his hands together. Which is why Hitler must expect Greece. Charles realizes Bevan is looking right at him. Sit down, for Christ's sakes, boy! Charles searches desperately around, but every seat is taken. Instead, he awkwardly perches on the windowsill, where he's forced into a permanent half-squat. Around him, suggestions begin flying. We could buy up a lot of Greek currency, put some Greek interpreters on the P roll. And start spreading the info to our double agents. Or get fake reports out on radio for Germans to intercept. Convince Ho-Ho.

• 12:58Alice Levine?

  And Ho-Ho, of course, friend of the show.

• 13:00Matt Forde?

  Friend of the show, you can listen to a previous series about the Brit who effectively became a Nazi propagandist. Some people may struggle to believe this in the world of 2026, but some people back then, when they got a platform, didn't use it responsibly. They used it to spread all sorts of nonsense.

• 13:13Alice Levine?

  How times have changed.

• 13:16Matt Forde?

  Charles can't help himself. He shakes his head, stands to relieve his legs. Do you have a problem, boy? Reddening, he stammers. No, not at all. I, um... He swallows. I do just worry, sir, that, well, if it's obvious to us that Britain's next target will be Sicily, then surely it'll be obvious to the Germans too. It would take something rather special to throw Hitler's lot off the scent. Bevan fixes him with a sneer. And you are? Charles swallows. His mouth feels dry. Charles. Charles Chumley.

• 13:50Alice Levine?

  But it's spelt Cholmondeley, if that's any help.

• 13:54Matt Forde?

  The spelling of Chumley is the sort of thing that Americans would just never understand.

• 13:59Alice Levine?

  It is reason enough to hate us internationally.

• 14:02Matt Forde?

  Cholmondeley.

• 14:04Alice Levine?

  It's just Chumley the usual way. C-H-O-L-M-O-N-D-E-L-E-Y, as it sounds.

• 14:10Matt Forde?

  Charles hears whispering, sniggering. His hands are sweating. But Bevan has already moved on. It's clear the meeting is over.

• 14:21Matt Forde?

  Charles skulks to his tiny new desk, but his mind is working overtime as he opens his briefcase and begins carefully unpacking the contents. Molskin notepad.

• 14:31Alice Levine?

  Oh, he's my kind of guy.

• 14:33Matt Forde?

  A new, top-of-the-range fountain pen and a photograph. His brother Richard in uniform.

• 14:39Alice Levine?

  Fantastic. Thank you.

• 14:40Matt Forde?

  The last one taken before he was killed in Dunkirk.

• 14:43Alice Levine?

  Okay, so I didn't know that was going to be the next line.

• 14:47Matt Forde?

  Alice has got the hots for dead servicemen.

• 14:51Alice Levine?

  Oh, God!

• 14:53Matt Forde?

  Charles rests the frame against a stack of files. Silently, he tells himself, he too will make himself a war hero. He knows what he has to do. He opens his notebook,

• 15:07Matt Forde?

  takes the lid off his fountain pen and writes three words.

• 15:12Alice Levine?

  I love you.

• 15:14Matt Forde?

  Oh, my God!

• 15:19Matt Forde?

  But he writes another three words. The Sicily problem.

• 15:33Matt Forde?

  Fifteen hours later, Cromwell Muse, Kensington, London. Charles takes off his thick glasses and rubs his eyes. His head is throbbing. His shirt is rolled up at the sleeves and his brill-creamed hair sticks out in all directions. The living room of Charles's parents' Victorian muse house is strewn with papers and maps, anything Charles thought might help him come up with a solution. But so far, he has nothing.

• 16:02Matt Forde?

  He jumps as his mother tutts and bustles in. What a mess! She pushes aside a sheet of intelligence reports, starts loading Charles's dinner plates and half-drunk mugs of coffee onto a tray. Mother, those are classified files. Would it kill you to lift a finger? Mother, I'm working. He grabs the document from her hand, stares at it. He's been reading that Churchill intends to send 100,000 troops to Sicily to break the German-Italy alliance. If he's successful, it could be the turning point of the war. But if Hitler and Mussolini get wind of Churchill's intentions, it'll be a bloodbath. But he keeps coming to a dead end. Charles throws yet another page to the floor.

• 16:44Matt Forde?

  You call this work? Christ, boys out there are dying. She points to the papers nearest him. And you're sitting around reading about fishing? He glances up at her in confusion. Fishing? What do you mean fishing? He hopes his mother isn't finally losing it. She rolls her eyes, points to a file lying on the coffee table. He glances at a discoloured pamphlet he hadn't noticed before. He doesn't remember bringing this home. The Trout Memo, 1939. Charles picks it up and begins to read. Deceiving the enemy is like trout fishing. His eyebrows raise.

• 17:27Matt Forde?

  Inside the memo are 54 deception operations to fool an enemy force, each more outlandish than the last, creating bogus copies of the Times newspaper, sending out messages in bottles criticizing Hitler's Reich, fake treasure ships secretly packed with commandos, setting adrift explosives disguised as tins of food. Surely these are works of fiction? He checks the author's name. Ian Fleming. Charles has never heard of him. He's clearly unhinged.

• 18:03Alice Levine?

  Just wait till skyfall.

• 18:04Matt Forde?

  Yes, for those of you who don't know, Ian Fleming, the creator of James Bond.

• 18:08Alice Levine?

  So obviously he wrote James Bond, but he's also writing military manuals.

• 18:12Matt Forde?

  Yes, so he worked in wartime deception. And the Trout Memo takes its name, its inspiration from fly fishing, where you throw something into the water to fool the fish and then you catch it.

• 18:26Matt Forde?

  Charles is about to toss the memo aside when suggestion 28 catches his eye. A corpse dressed as an airman with dispatches in his pockets could be dropped on the coast, supposedly from a parachute that had failed. I understand there is no difficulty in obtaining corpses at the naval hospital, but of course, it would have to be a fresh one. Charles grimaces at the darkly clinical final line, closes the pamphlet and blows out the lamp. But later that night, tossing and turning in bed, suggestion 28, a corpse dressed as an airman, keeps returning over and over in his head. It's ambitious, outrageous, so outrageous, in fact, Hitler might just not see it coming.

• 19:22Matt Forde?

  Thirty-first of October, nineteen forty-two. The old Admiralty Building, Whitehall, London. Forty-two-year-old Ewan Montague runs a hand through his thinning, silver-flecked hair, braces himself as his secretary connects the call. Darling, how are the children? But on the other end of the line, his wife's voice is brisk.

• 19:48Speaker 04

  Are you packed?

• 19:50Matt Forde?

  He looks around the cramped office and sees colleagues peering over their typewriters at him, eyebrows raised.

• 19:56Speaker 04

  Have you even started?

• 19:58Matt Forde?

  He covers his mouth with his hand. I've been rather busy, Iris. I'm in the office. I can't speak.

• 20:05Speaker 04

  You've been busy for three years, Ewan. I want you on that boat tomorrow morning so we can finally be a family again.

• 20:12Matt Forde?

  And I will, I promise. Iris and their two children left London for the safety of New York three years ago. As a member of one of Britain's most prominent Jewish families, Montague knew they'd be targeted in the event of a German invasion. He's been promising for years that he'd follow them out there, leave MI5, and return to his pre-war job as a prominent lawyer and QC. But now Iris has run out of patience. Darling, I'm so very excited to see you all. I promise, I'll be on that boat tomorrow.

• 20:45Alice Levine?

  It is a long time to be late, and I say this as a late person, but three years late, that's, that's pretty intense.

• 20:51Matt Forde?

  And as the person who would be stood there waiting for you for three years, I would be livid.

• 20:55Alice Levine?

  And also you'd be three years early, so you'd have been stood there for six years.

• 20:59Matt Forde?

  That's like ten prime ministers. Around him, chairs are scraping as his colleagues make their way to the meeting room next door. Sorry, I really have to go. He hangs up the receiver before Iris has a chance to protest. Montague slips into his seat in the long, narrow boardroom. At the front stands the new chap, Charles Chumley, gangly, red-faced, and stuttering. His eyes are wide with an almost manic excitement. He looks like he hasn't been to bed. Um, we'd, um, the airman, the corpse who's dressed as an airman, we'd launch him from the plane and we'd put papers in his pockets identifying Greece as the real target

• 21:44Matt Forde?

  and Sicily the deception. Montague sits up in his chair. A corpse? Charles looks at him, but before he can answer, a clipped voice interjects. Montague groans as he turns to see Lieutenant Colonel Johnny Bevan. If we launched him out of a plane, your corpse would be pulverized and any idiot would be able to see those injuries happened after death. Montague feels a stab of annoyance, trust Bevan to punch down a junior officer. Montague can't help but cut in. Perhaps he doesn't have to be thrown out of a plane. He could be a navy man or, or a marine. Charles catches his eye. They both jump as Bevan snorts.

• 22:26Matt Forde?

  Pah, it's ridiculous. There's no way the Germans would buy it. Yeah, it's a risk, but... He turns his attention back to Charles as a thought occurs to him. But Hitler did dismiss real papers a couple of months ago, detailing the date of our invasion of North Africa. Hitler's mistake cost him Morocco, Algeria. He wouldn't want to make the same mistake twice. Montague looks up to see Bevan's face turning a satisfying purple. He turns to the junior officer. Have you thought about where you'll drop the body? He sees Charles's face fall. He removes his glasses nervously. I, I haven't got that far. Bevan stands up abruptly and scrapes back his chair.

• 23:10Matt Forde?

  Enough. We're here to devise deceptions, not ghost stories. It's absurd. I will not run a department of, of goddamn fiction writers. Montague marches straight over to Chumley, who is meekly gathering up his papers. Don't let him put you off. Our problem is we're not bold enough. We like vision. Don't give up. With a little fleshing out, who knows? Uh, will you, will you help me? Montague looks at his watch. I'm leaving tomorrow for New York. I'm sorry. I have too much to organize. But I, I think with the war on, we have a responsibility to...

• 23:51Matt Forde?

  Montague takes in Charles's pleading, almost desperate expression, his naive ambition. He reminds him of his own younger self. Montague picks up his briefcase. We can talk and pack. An hour later, twenty-eight Kensington Court, London. Charles kneels on the floor of the grand living room. Next to him, Montague is zipping jackets into garment bags with practiced perfection. Charles begins clumsily stuffing dress shirts into a leather suitcase. Dear God, boy, don't crease them! Charles feels his cheeks redden. He's starting to wonder if Ewan Montague invited him round to be his butler.

• 24:33Alice Levine?

  This is you. So recently, we were getting dressed together, that doesn't sound right, and you saw how I hung up my suit that I was wearing and you were horrified.

• 24:45Matt Forde?

  Appalling. I was shocked. I cannot believe you didn't know how to hang a pair of trousers.

• 24:50Alice Levine?

  You went, "Find the crease!"

• 24:54Matt Forde?

  Spain! Montague barks suddenly. Sorry? It's perfect. Charles blinks. Drop your body on the Spanish coast. Sitting up straight, Charles frowns. It's neutral. Exactly. Crawling with spies. Every chance your corpse will fall into the wrong, or rather, the right, hands. Charles takes out his moleskin notepad, scribbles down the idea. Of course, there's still the logistics of storing the body. Correct temperature, hiding the odor. I'm assuming you don't want to let the crew on the ship know he's there. Charles feels his pulse quicken. There's so much he hasn't considered. He starts

• 25:34Matt Forde?

  to shake his head as Montague seals another herringbone suit in a heavy-duty garment bag. And the papers themselves, with information on Greece, will need to be sealed, watertight, perhaps in a suitcase of some kind. I'll never get this sanctioned on my own. Perhaps Bevan was right. I'm not sure I'm up to this.

• 25:55Alice Levine?

  Oh, Jesus, Charles. Fold at the first hurdle, why don't you?

• 25:59Matt Forde?

  As long as you fold along the crease at the first hurdle, I'm fine with it. Montague looks directly at Charles. Bevan's mistake is believing the Germans think like we do. The only way we can win this war is by using our imagination and troops.

• 26:17Alice Levine?

  An equal combination, if, if not slightly weighted more towards the latter.

• 26:22Matt Forde?

  We will win this war with our imagination and troops and guns and bombs. Charles looks about Montague's half-empty family home. The floor's piled high with suitcases and boxes. He knows it's ridiculous, but what does he have to lose? He clears his throat tentatively. Um, perhaps with someone of your, um, age, that is, I mean, experience, sorry, knowledge, uh, of past campaigns. Montague laughs. My family need me. Iris, I haven't seen my children in months. But what about your country? You're happy to just give up? Give up on Britain? Charles is surprised by the assertiveness in his own voice.

• 27:07Matt Forde?

  You said yourself, if this plan works, it, we, could turn Britain's fortunes around. There's intelligence that suggests Hitler is executing Jewish families, Montague. Where will it end? This isn't even just about Britain anymore. It's about humanity, right and wrong. He sees Montague's face turn puce with rage. Don't you dare lecture me about morality. Sacrifice! But Charles can't backtrack now. Didn't you ever want to do more for the war effort than sit behind a desk? Charles sees Montague's eyes flick to a photograph on the dresser, himself in navy reserve uniform.

• 27:50Matt Forde?

  We could be heroes, but I can't do this alone. He waits, holds his breath tense. I'm just asking for a few weeks, a month at most. Charles stays on him until finally, Montague's face softens. Charles's nerves fizz with adrenaline. One month! They're really doing this. Charles knows he'll still need to convince Bevan, the whole of MI5, but with Montague's help, they might really stand a chance of getting this one off the ground, of beating the Nazis, of securing Europe and Britain. And he already

• 28:29Matt Forde?

  knows what he wants to call the mission: Operation Mince Meat.

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• 29:23Matt Forde?

  Protecting your home and devices could be drama free. Ex-finity. Imagine that. Restrictions apply. Not available in all areas.

• 29:36Matt Forde?

  Three months later, February 1943, 2 a.m., Cabinet War Rooms, London. Winston Churchill unscrews the lid of his Johnnie Walker red label and watches the amber liquid flow into the glass. Churchill can't bring himself to return to Downing Street, not when he'll have to be back here in a few hours. Instead, he sinks down into his bed in the dank underground offices.

• 30:04Matt Forde?

  He takes a sip, tries to silence his restless thoughts. He's still recovering from a bout of pneumonia and his body feels heavy, his mind thick. German submarines are sinking cargo ships in the Atlantic, slowly starving Britain into submission. He knows he needs to break the German-Italy axis, but his American allies are uneasy, calling his fixation on Sicily a suicide mission. He stiffens as a telegram comes through. He snatches it before the needle stops moving. He slams his glass down on the table. Get me Bevan!

• 30:43Matt Forde?

  Less than an hour later, Johnny Bevan stands blary-eyed in front of him, wearing full uniform.

• 30:50Matt Forde?

  Churchill sees his eyes flick towards his silk pajamas.

• 30:54Alice Levine?

  What a mental image, Churchill in silk pajamas. Also, silk pajamas leave absolutely nothing to the imagination.

• 31:02Matt Forde?

  I see war looks good on you, Winston.

• 31:06Alice Levine?

  In a silk pajama, you'd see your stomach rumble. Never mind what else.

• 31:12Matt Forde?

  Can I shock you? I've never worn silk pajamas.

• 31:14Alice Levine?

  I have never been less surprised by something in my life. Can I shock you? I own two pairs.

• 31:20Matt Forde?

  I think it's different for women. Men shouldn't wear this sort of thing. It's too hot.

• 31:24Alice Levine?

  They're very breathable silk, keeps you cool, keeps you warm. Don't know if that's even true, but it's what people say.

• 31:29Matt Forde?

  But I would have to just have, like, silk boxer shorts. That feels weirder. Silk underwear just underneath an England kit.

• 31:38Alice Levine?

  What a combo of fabrics. I mean, you'd set yourself on fire.

• 31:41Matt Forde?

  I dress so badly, but I know it and I'm cool with it.

• 31:46Matt Forde?

  Churchill's jaw tightens. Christ, man! Hitler is strengthening Sicily by the day. Well, we have fed new intelligence in an attempt to deceive. Churchill slams his fist on the table. Make none of it is bloody working! Bevan shifts his feet. I need something bold. Hitler is no fool. He watches Bevan rub his face, hesitate. Well, come on then! There is one proposal called Operation Mince Meat. The idea is to dress a corpse as a marine, dump it from a U-boat on the Spanish coast. Churchill stares at him in disbelief. A corpse?

• 32:30Matt Forde?

  It will be carrying forged confidential papers, claiming that Greece is our real target and Sicily only a cavern. Churchill pauses. It's bordering on inconceivable, but perhaps that's the beauty of it. Then the Spanish recover the papers and they make sure the intelligence makes its way back to Berlin.

• 32:53Alice Levine?

  Okay, so they're kind of hoping that loose lips sink ships. They're hoping that everyone's talking to each other and this is just gonna disseminate.

• 33:00Matt Forde?

  Yes, and Franco, who's running Spain at the time, is mates with Hitler. He's letting the Germans use Spanish ports. So if that body washes up there, there'll be Germans, there'll be Spanish around and word will spread.

• 33:14Matt Forde?

  He swirls his whiskey round in the glass. And what if Spain simply returns the body? Then we've achieved nothing. Churchill's face breaks into a smile. Then we shall have to put the poor chap back for another swim. Sir, we are talking about landing 100,000 men on the beaches of Sicily on the hope that a corpse... Churchill stares into his glass. He knows Bevan's opinion is usually accurate. Perhaps the Americans are right. He's becoming reckless, desperate, but right now, he has no other options. He drains his whiskey. I want Operation Mince Meat ready within three months. Bevan hangs his head.

• 33:59Matt Forde?

  Churchill fixes him with a look. The future of this country depends on it.

• 34:19Matt Forde?

  The next day, Hackney Mortuary, London. Charles follows a coroner through a white tiled corridor. Bare electric bulbs cast a harsh white light. Damp stone and carbolic disinfectant fill his nostrils. The icy cold makes Charles's hair stand on end. He pauses next to an open drawer, catches sight of the pale vacant body of an elderly man, realizes as bile rises in his throat, this is the first time he's seen a corpse.

• 34:51Alice Levine?

  Have you seen a corpse?

• 34:53Matt Forde?

  Yes. Yeah, my auntie. They had an open casket before the funeral.

• 34:57Alice Levine?

  Irish?

• 34:58Matt Forde?

  Effectively, yes.

• 35:01Alice Levine?

  That's all I want to say.

• 35:02Matt Forde?

  Have you ever seen a corpse?

• 35:03Alice Levine?

  No.

• 35:04Matt Forde?

  Do you wanna?

• 35:06Alice Levine?

  Come with me!

• 35:08Matt Forde?

  Have you seen a corpse? Email us, [email protected].

• 35:13Matt Forde?

  Charles tries to compose himself. Payment can be arranged. He appeals, studying the coroner's stoic expression. I hear £10 is the going rate for this sort of thing. The coroner stares at him like he's mad. I'm afraid it's not quite that simple. Charles glances at the vast number of metal drawers lining the walls. All of these bodies are accounted for. I assume you don't want to complicate your operation by involving loved ones. Charles swallows. He'd imagined obtaining a body would be the straightforward part of the operation. All of them? I, I, you must have something, someone.

• 35:56Matt Forde?

  He struggles to hide the growing desperation in his voice. These are Churchill's orders. The coroner purses his lips. There is one young man. Charles begins to open his mouth, but the coroner's voice is flat. But I'm afraid his cause of death is not consistent with drowning. Charles starts running a catalogue of grisly deaths through his head. Asphyxiation, dismembering. But the body is intact. Cause of death was rat poison. The hope evaporates. Rat poison? He was homeless, a sad unfortunate case of suicide, but poison would show up on an autopsy. Charles sinks.

• 36:39Matt Forde?

  He can't risk Spanish authorities uncovering the corpse's real cause of death. It has to be drowning. His body can't be full of rat poison. We'll have to look elsewhere. I'm afraid you're likely to find the same problem. The chances of finding a drowning victim of fading age with no obvious injuries and no remaining family... Dread swells in Charles's gut. Every day, he reads about casualties, hears about atrocities, and he can't find even one body.

• 37:10Matt Forde?

  He picks up the phone to Montague.

• 37:14Matt Forde?

  Montague, I'm afraid we have a problem.

• 37:21Matt Forde?

  A week later, Westminster Mortuary, London. Montague holds his breath as a nauseating smell fills the sterile white autopsy room. A pale-looking Charles hovers by the window, mopping his brow with a handkerchief. Senior Home Office pathologist, Sir Bernard Spilsbury, laughs, shaking his head at their blatant disgust.

• 37:45Alice Levine?

  There's always a bit part character every series that I just want more information about, and Sir Bernard Spilsbury, my goodness, the stories he would have to tell.

• 37:55Matt Forde?

  Yes, and interestingly, also gave evidence in the Crippin case.

• 37:59Alice Levine?

  Love it when the comic universe comes together like this. Yes, Bernie.

• 38:03Matt Forde?

  And Murdoch hacked his phone.

• 38:07Alice Levine?

  You had me.

• 38:09Matt Forde?

  Montague watches as Spilsbury makes a long vertical incision into the chest of a dead woman. Her skin mottled, her eyes pale and blank. He glances up. You'll get used to it, but you'll have to if you're going into battle with a corpse. If we find one. Montague stutters, dejected. He and Charles have spent the week furiously scouring morgues in London, but they still haven't found a corpse. Montague can't believe it. Britain has lost almost 120,000 troops to date, and they can't find a single suitable body. The closest thing we've got so far is a rat poison victim, and— He stops as Charles steps forward. The coroner says rat poison would show up on a post-mortem.

• 38:54Matt Forde?

  A- and would that still be the case after three months? Spilsbury's knife hesitates over the woman's abdomen. He's been dead three months. Hmm, hard to say for definite. Montague's chest leaps. If there's any way you think we could use that body— Spilsbury is silent for a long time. He carefully removes the woman's chest plate. Montague hears Charles retch as a bone snaps. You know, the Spanish may not even carry out a full autopsy. Ewan stares at him, confused. He knows Spain is suffering a famine, but they must have the resources to— Until his eyes rest on the dead woman's ring finger. Spain's Catholic.

• 39:39Alice Levine?

  Great trivia knowledge, fantastic, but relevant here, why?

• 39:44Matt Forde?

  Because unless there are legitimate scientific or legal reasons, Catholics don't do autopsies.

• 39:52Alice Levine?

  I didn't know that.

• 39:54Matt Forde?

  Charles's lanky frame is still bent over the sink. I'm not sure we should be basing our entire mission on Catholic superstition. But Montague feels a pang of annoyance. Think about it. There's only a small chance the rat poison will be detected, and an even greater one that no autopsy will be carried out at all. Those are good odds. Odds I'm willing to gamble on.

• 40:16Alice Levine?

  This is very risky business.

• 40:21Matt Forde?

  It does feel like he's just convincing himself.

• 40:23Alice Levine?

  You know, when you make a bank transfer and it says, has anybody called you with a new number to do this? Has anybody, you know, forced you to make this transfer, da-da-da? And you tick all the boxes and it says, it's highly likely this is a scam. I feel like if you were going to fill this out on some kind of risk assessment analyzer, the indicator's very much in the red.

• 40:41Matt Forde?

  It feels like three-pint logic, that he's sort of warm to his theme over a couple of wet ones. You're like, no, don't, don't lose your rigor. Montague feels a twinge of guilt. He's no longer searching for the perfect plan. He's searching for the least impossible one. He's been around long enough to know that pragmatism trumps perfectionism. And he also knows time is against them. A few hours later, Hackney Mortuary, London. Charles braces himself as the coroner pulls open the large metal drawer.

• 41:26Matt Forde?

  Next to him, Montague is uncharacteristically quiet, withdrawn. What's up with you, mate?

• 41:32Alice Levine?

  What's on your mind?

• 41:33Matt Forde?

  It's just that since we came to this massive freezer full of dead bodies, you've been a bit off. This is their first time seeing the body, and they're both desperate for it to be right. The coroner pulls back the sheet covering the corpse. Charles steps back in horror. No, this, i- i- it won't do. Look at the state of him. He covers his mouth with his hand, ventures another look at the corpse. Its spindly, a malnourished frame, thinning patches of dark, matted hair. The skin on its face, pale and bruised with pallid, sunken cheeks, and its mouth gaping open. The coroner sighs and snaps. I told you he'd been sleeping rough. Charles shakes his head furiously. Montague waves a placating hand.

• 42:17Matt Forde?

  I'm sure we can make it work.

• 42:19Alice Levine?

  It's become ever more slapdash, hasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:23Matt Forde?

  Our man is supposed to be a high-ranking officer. Charles got into this to be a war hero. Now he realizes he could just as easily become a national disgrace. I'm going to tell Churchill the truth. We need more time. Charles gathers up his overcoat and heads for the door, but Montague follows him. This is the only credible solution MI5 have come up with. The only one Churchill believes might work. But we can't just throw a uniform onto a homeless man. Montague nods slowly. But what if it wasn't just the uniform? Charles looks at Montague in confusion. What if we gave our man a watertight backstory?

• 43:03Matt Forde?

  Charles listens as Montague animatedly describes giving the corpse official army records, ID cards, an overdraft, parents, a family home even.

• 43:13Alice Levine?

  That's a big old briefcase.

• 43:14Matt Forde?

  I just always bring my family home with me. I'm a completely normal homeless major. We could even give him pocket change, wallet litter, even a sweetheart, receipts, ticket stubs for the theatre. Really convince the Spanish authorities this was a living, breathing major. Charles cuts in. Acting major. He would have to be high-ranking enough to carry the documents, but not so much that the Germans would have heard of him.

• 43:39Alice Levine?

  Ooh, that is clever.

• 43:43Matt Forde?

  He could have been sort of promoted, there's a bit of a reshuffle, maybe the regions got merged, so then some people went to head office. He was acting up, there was a recruitment process, but that wasn't going to be completed until maybe December.

• 43:55Alice Levine?

  He is on the portal, so you will see that there, but yeah, until Sally's back from annual leave, that won't be updated.

• 44:02Matt Forde?

  Yeah, and we could put like a little post on his LinkedIn saying, hoping I get it. Montague nods, a smile beginning to spread across his face. And I suppose, I mean, maybe he spent years behind a desk, hence his rather lanky frame. But he hated it, and the boys he was at school with were serving their countries, and he was just sitting around. He wanted more active and dangerous work, so he joined the commandos. And we'd need a common name, nothing to arouse too much suspicion. Tom, or James, or— Charles taps his chin. How about William, Bill, and then Jones, or—

• 44:39Alice Levine?

  Or we could go for something a little bit more flavoursome, like Rainbow, or, or, or Apple.

• 44:45Matt Forde?

  Flux Capacitor de Havilland. The Third. Montague walks over to the corpse and says quietly, Martin. Acting Major Bill Martin. Charles goes to stand next to him. He stares at the man's hollow eyes and sunken cheeks. He still feels riddled with doubt. He's let Montague talk him into this. Now he's going to have to work to make sure every detail is 100% watertight.

• 45:20Matt Forde?

  A man who never existed has to become real.

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• 46:18Speaker 05

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• 46:37Matt Forde?

  Imagine you're reading Pride and Prejudice, except you're not reading it. Harris Dickinson and Marissa Abella are reading it to you on Audible. Her barbs sting you, his coldness sends a shiver up your spine. Your heart aches, your ears burn, you yearn for Elizabeth and Mr Darcy to profess their undying love for one another. You can't bear it any longer. Well, maybe a chapter longer. Performance is so good, you'll— Give love a second chance. Audible. Stories that speak to you.

• 47:14Matt Forde?

  The next day. Room thirteen. The old Admiralty building. Whitehall, London. Charles smiles to himself as he reads back the letter with satisfaction. Bill's fictional father has many concerns about his son. In particular, his unpaid debts. Charles has to admit, he's rather enjoying creating a backstory for Bill. So far, he and Montague have decided that he was privately educated, a brilliant student, a lover of theatre and dancing, and a Roman Catholic, to dissuade the Spanish from carrying out an autopsy. Feeling a rush of playfulness, he signs off with a PS, updating Bill on his cousin Priscilla and her unfortunate looks.

• 47:59Alice Levine?

  Let's not have any rushes of playfulness. When we get into like fun PSs, I'm getting a little bit nervous.

• 48:05Matt Forde?

  Also, it's just a bit too much. You're like, oh, so that explains why he looks weird is because it runs in the family. It would almost like be then going, PPS, she also liked licking rat poison as a child.

• 48:18Alice Levine?

  PPS. Hate it how she's getting teased so much for her patchy, dark, oily hair.

• 48:24Matt Forde?

  Pleased with himself, he takes the freshly typed paper and heads next door to show Montague. But the pokey office rings with laughter. Charles is shocked to see Montague perched, legs crossed, on the edge of his desk. In front of him, a queue of young women from the typing pool. And who do we have next? A girl of nineteen or twenty steps forward, her blonde hair neatly pinned. Barbara, sir. The girl blushes, holding a photograph of herself in a short floral sundress. Montague's eyes twinkle. What a lovely smile. Lights up a room.

• 49:03Alice Levine?

  And this is essential, is it?

• 49:05Matt Forde?

  This is crucial to the war effort, Alice. If men don't flirt with the typing pool, how are they going to defeat Hitler?

• 49:11Alice Levine?

  Sorry, sometimes I'm just so naive.

• 49:13Matt Forde?

  Toddle back to the typewriter.

• 49:15Alice Levine?

  Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Okay.

• 49:19Matt Forde?

  Charles looks on horrified. He's old enough to be her father. He drags Montague to one side. I thought you were married. Montague's face breaks into a grin. Bill's an accomplished chap, a war hero. He needs a sweetheart. I just thought I'd take up the mantle of finding his type. Charles glances again at the blonde who is smiling at Montague. I just wanted to serve my country. But Charles cuts in. You told her about the mission? We need a photograph for his wallet. A real sort of girl, not a pinup from a magazine. Charles opens his mouth to protest, but Montague places a brotherly arm on his shoulders and turns back to the girls.

• 50:03Matt Forde?

  My esteemed colleague Charles here has the deciding vote. He's the mastermind of this whole plot and single, ladies. How did you two get together? Well, I had taken a corpse in the mortuary and was going to pretend it was a senior officer. We were going to put it in the water to fool Hitler and we needed to find a photo. My married friend was flirting with all the teenage girls in the office and I was annoyed until he got me a part of the action and then that's how we met.

• 50:30Alice Levine?

  No, you tell it better, love. You do it.

• 50:32Matt Forde?

  He fans out the photographs on his desk. Charles tries to speak, but nothing comes out. His face feels hot. His eyes fall upon a photograph of Jean Leslie, an eighteen-year-old clerk he recognizes from the Christmas party, wearing a bathing suit. Montague follows his gaze. Excellent choice. He waves the photograph in the air. We have our winner. Apologies to the rest of you, there really was some stiff competition. Charles still feels his face burning as the blare of the telephone fills the office. Montague reaches for it and his expression immediately darkens. Charles knows that whatever's happened isn't good.

• 51:15Matt Forde?

  A dread confirmed when Montague fixes him with a look. We need to get to the mortuary. Fast.

• 51:28Matt Forde?

  An hour later. Hackney Mortuary, London. The coroner closes the door behind them. Mr. Montague, Mr. Chomley, this is Miss Bethan Lewis. Montague stands next to Charles in front of her, their heads bowed. Opposite them, a petite Welsh woman is staring at them blankly. She's twisting a handkerchief and her eyes are red and swollen.

• 51:54Matt Forde?

  I, I, I don't understand. Charles's cheeks redden as he manages to mutter. Uh, Miss Lewis, I'm terribly sorry for your loss. Who are you? Montague panics as Charles flounders for an answer. He cuts in. We knew your brother. The woman looks him up and down. Their thick, expensive overcoats and smart shoes. Really? Mike Glinder? Smoothing the panic from his voice, Montague nods. He's been a great help to the war effort. She looks bewildered. Glinder wouldn't have been capable of... But Montague cuts her off.

• 52:38Matt Forde?

  He feels Charles's eyes bearing into him, his hand on his shoulder, but he refuses to back down. Well, he was. Excellent fellow. I just want to bring him home, lay him to rest. Charles begins. Of, of course, but... Montague's chest tightens. He silences Charles with a furious look. But unfortunately, that won't be possible. Your brother died whilst involved in a, a highly confidential operation. And as such, his body cannot be released. Tears fallen controllably down the woman's cheeks. I, I don't understand. I, I just want a funeral. There must be something I can do.

• 53:22Matt Forde?

  He feels blood race to his head. There is loss, unfortunately, but Miss Lewis, you should be very proud of your brother. I promise you, he is a hero.

• 53:35Alice Levine?

  Okay. Obviously, you could argue there is justification for lying to this poor, grieving woman, but it is pretty dark. It also makes you ask a question about whether him being homeless and troubled impacted their decision and if this would have been very different if the body that they'd found that fitted the bill was of a different social class, different circumstances.

• 54:01Matt Forde?

  Couldn't they have at least said, look, we're going to use his body for a thing? And I know it sounds mad, but one day we will tell you why and it will be an amazing thing that we've done. Couldn't you have just done that rather than, than lie? And if she says, I don't want you to do that, then they'd just say, tough, we're doing it.

• 54:16Alice Levine?

  I don't love your version, I have to admit.

• 54:20Matt Forde?

  Montague steps forward, at least now on more solid ground. And he is responsible for saving many, many lives. He pulls the woman to him and gives her a hug. Charles's glare over her shoulder. He feels a slight sickness deep within his belly. But he tells himself, Glenda Michael is already dead. And if Operation Mince Meat succeeds, this man will help save a hundred thousand soldiers, win back Europe from Nazi hands, and finally bring an end to this terrible war. He and Charles have their body and their story. And now it's time to put their plan into action.

• 55:25Matt Forde?

  If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read Operation Mince Meat, The True Spy Story That Changed World War Two by Ben McIntyre. You can watch Operation Mince Meat, a BBC Two documentary, Operation Mince Meat, a 2021 film, or go and see Operation Mince Meat, the musical. You've been listening to British Scandal, an Audible original, produced by Audible with Samizdat, hosted by me, Matt Ford.

• 55:49Alice Levine?

  And me, Alice Levine.

• 55:50Matt Forde?

  Written by Lydia Marchant. The story editor was James Maniac. The senior producer was Cheek O'Reilly. The assistant producer was Louise Mason. The production manager was Louis Blathewick. Recorded by Jai Williams. Sound design by Rich Evans. The executive producers for Samizdat were Joe Sykes and Dashala Sitseena. Executive producers for Audible were Theodora Leludis and Destel Doy.

• 56:23Matt Forde?

  You stepped out for your morning jog, except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You've lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible. Stories that speak to you.

• 56:53Speaker 05

  By 1779, Benedict Arnold had sacrificed more for the revolution than almost any other man in America. One of George Washington's most effective commanders, he had nearly lost a leg in the Second Battle of Saratoga. But in return, Arnold believed he had been humiliated by Congress and cheated of his glory by lesser men, so he decided to make them pay. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on his comrades in the Continental Army and secretly defects to the British. With the help of his wife, he plots to hand over the most important colonial fortress

• 57:37Speaker 05

  to the enemy and doom the revolution he once served. Follow American Scandal wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.