189. How to Fix a Broken High Schooler, in Four Easy Steps

Okay, maybe the steps aren’t so easy. But a program run out of a Toronto housing project has had great success in turning around kids who were headed for trouble.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at SNHU.edu/freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds, because switching your home and auto insurance is better than

• 0:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So, switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example?

• 1:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, PNC Bank did since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely-not-Yolo type. PNC Bank: Brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.

• 1:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work is a new way to work in ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work can pull info from across your apps and connect to your tools to help you create finished work. You can even automate work in ChatGPT with the Scheduled Tasks feature, and the whole time, you stay in control. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  My name is Carolyn Acker. I was the Executive Director of the Regent Park Community Health Centre.

• 2:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Regent Park, in downtown Toronto, is known for having one of Canada's oldest, biggest, and worst housing projects.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  So, we're doing all this work, we're investing more and more dollars. When I went to Regent Park Community Health Centre in 1992, the budget was about 2.8 million. By about 1996, 97, the budget was close to 6 million. Instead of things improving, things were getting worse in terms of crime and murder and violence, this kind of thing. We were very distressed over what was happening to our young people, and we didn't really understand it. We were doing more and more, always investing more, and we weren't seeing an improvement.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  There were about nine murders in Regent Park in 2000, which was the year before we started Pathways to Education.

• 3:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Pathways to Education was a voluntary program for high school kids in Regent Park. It wasn't an education program, exactly. It was more like life support.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  The Pathways program, they say, has four pillars. Those are counselling, academic, social, and financial.

• 4:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Philip Oryopoulos. He's an economist at the University of Toronto with a particular interest in education. Over the years, Oryopoulos had heard about Pathways to Education, that it was something of a miracle cure for low-performing high schoolers. He wondered if that could possibly be true.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Pathways to Education had a pro bono study done in the mid 2000s by a consulting firm, and the director that did the pro bono study was a member of the board of Pathways and came out with a report.

• 4:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  I can feel your antenna, as an empirical economist, already going up, right? A nice report done by a consultant. This was Boston Consulting Group, I believe, right?

• 4:45Speaker 02

  It was Boston Consulting Group.

• 4:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Who are good and reputable, but still a pro bono report commissioned by someone who's also sitting on the board of the nonprofit that's running the thing. You might be a little bit skeptical, yes?

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Well, what was striking about the report was it suggested that before Pathways, the dropout rate was 56%, and very soon after Pathways was introduced, the dropout rate was 10%. So you had a 46 percentage point fall in the dropout rate, and the report was attributing it to the introduction of Pathways. And this type of magnitude of effect is virtually unheard of in the education literature. It's like the holy grail of programs that try to improve outcomes, especially among disadvantaged households. And if these results were true, we should try to figure out exactly how to replicate

• 5:39Speaker 02

  them across the country and in the US, because they're so large, it would solve a lot of our problems.

• 5:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  So on today's program, were the results true? If so, how did it happen? And, most important, where did the rest of us sign up?

• 6:08Speaker 03

  From WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 6:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Carolyn Acker was running a community health center in a Toronto housing project.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  I was driven to break the cycle of poverty. How do you break the cycle of poverty? Well, education and income are the two most powerful determinants of health.

• 6:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  We talked about this in our last episode, the huge returns to education, especially if you've got a good teacher.

• 6:49Speaker 04

  We know a good teacher can increase the lifetime income of a classroom by over $250,000.

• 6:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  We also talked about how US teachers, on average, aren't as good as we might like, and that it's not necessarily their fault.

• 7:03Speaker 05

  So I think, yes, the way we train teachers is fundamentally broken in this country.

• 7:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  But teachers and schools are only one side of the education equation. There's also the students and their families. And the schools don't have much to say about how well-equipped or motivated those kids may be.

• 7:22Speaker 06

  We often used to jokingly say, you know, parents give us the best kids that they have for us to educate, and by the same token, kids come with the best parents they're going to get, and we have to take them where they are.

• 7:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  So here's the paradox. The returns to education are huge, but the kind of kid who really needs those big returns, a kid from a poor, maybe broken, family, is least likely to get a good education. As much as the school system might want to help, they're not really set up for it. So what about a community health center in a housing project? It wasn't an obvious idea, in the beginning at least, even to Carolyn Acker.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  And the community had quite a stigma, and it was sensationalizing, made a lot of headlines, right? Regent Park is this horrible place, and look what's happening there. Now, we never felt that way. We felt a privilege to be able to serve the community, and very distressed by the fact that we were working harder and expending more efforts and investment to improve the health of the community, and we weren't seeing it improve at all.

• 8:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  They kept trying new things.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  And we were doing our third or fourth strategic plan.

• 8:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Finally, they couldn't help but notice the relationship between school and all the bad stuff happening in Regent Park.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  So we worked with the Toronto District School Board. They told us we had a 56% high school dropout rate and that only 20% of the kids were going on to post-secondary. And when the director of the program came and told me that, I said, "Now I know why these kids are shooting each other. They have no hope and no future."

• 9:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Acker and her colleagues changed their focus. Rather than dwelling on all the bad outcomes in their neighborhood, what about the good outcomes, as rare as they might be?

• 9:17Speaker 01

  And we brought in focus groups. We did the young people who grew up in Regent Park, who had made it through university, were doing well. We asked them what made the difference in their lives. And every one of those people told us somebody took them under their wing. It was either a teacher. It was either a Parks and Recreation person. And they taught them and they helped them all the way. Now, this only happened to a handful of people spontaneously, but we were listening. Listening is exceptionally important. And we determined they lack academic support. There is absolutely no one they can go to for help with homework. They lack social capital. They have no networks whatsoever.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  They go from one house of poverty to another. There's no aunt or uncle who can help them get a job. So I was thinking, "I have to make an old boys' network here."

• 10:12Speaker 02

  And she and her staff came up with basically the pathways to education model.

• 10:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Philip Oropoulos, the University of Toronto economist.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  With the idea and the motivation being that if they could break the cycle by reducing the dropout rates and encouraging individuals within the community to go on to doing well in their careers and then give back to the community that they came from, that would be a way to try to turn the community around.

• 10:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Pathways to Education would be a voluntary program funded primarily by the government and nonprofits. All you had to do to qualify was be a high school kid in the neighborhood and sign a contract along with a parent that you'll do everything you're supposed to do. In 2001, when Pathways began, 115 incoming freshmen signed up. Every year, a new cohort was added. Within a few years, more than 600 kids were participating. And the program spread to two other housing projects in Toronto. The take-up rate was about 85%.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  It's unique in that the origins of the program are neighborhood-based. It's not directly explicitly tied to the schools, and yet they coordinate a lot with the schools. The neighborhood's source is important because it helps give the students a sense of community even away from the school, that they're part of this group on or off the school grounds, and that it's the community really paying attention to them. It's the community trying to get them to sign up for the program, and it's the community providing the support.

• 11:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's what Carolyn Acker means by "old boys' network," to get Regent Park kids to go to school, to do well in school. It would take more than just one or two lines of intervention. In fact, it took four: counseling, academic tutoring, social activities, and financial incentives.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  On the counseling side, every student that enters grade nine gets assigned a student-parent support worker, and they call them SPSWs. The SPSWs are paid advocates who meet on a regular basis with the students to check in with how they're doing, and it's their job and role to help ensure the academic success of the student. The next pillar is on the academic side, where tutoring services are available up to four nights a week. Students have to visit their SPSW twice a month.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  And they're expected to attend tutoring services twice a week unless if their grades are above a certain amount, around 70%. And as incentives to do those things, there's the financial pillar. So as long as a student continues to participate in all the activities and pathways, they're eligible to receive free public transportation that can get them to school and back, and also a college scholarship that builds up to $4,000 by the end of high school.

• 13:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  $4,000 for each year of college or total?

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Total.

• 13:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  So financial incentives, but let's be honest, not huge. Free transportation, certainly not huge, but something, and then $4,000 for...

• 13:39Speaker 02

  And yet, when interviewing the students participating in pathways, it's clear that the public transportation is a big deal to them, that they feel that they have to participate in order to get the public transportation tickets, or else that they would be walking to school. And when they see their friends getting the free public transportation as well, I think that they see that as a big advantage that they want to do.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  We have a contract, parents sign it, because we need a permission to look at the grades, look at the marks, so that when a parent called up and said, "You didn't give my Johnny enough bus tickets," we would say, "Well, Johnny skipped school on Wednesday. That's why he didn't get to for that day." "Oh, he did, did he?" The kids told me they would get the bus tickets and they'd sell them for cigarettes only the first time, because they would learn right away, now they can't get to school.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  And then the last pillar is the social pillar, where pathway students are eligible and required to go to at least one group activity a month. And these group activities are designed, one, to keep them out of trouble and encourage them to hang out with also academically interested students, and two, to have fun or even learn something along the way, develop a new hobby. And so the activities can range from a sporting event or bowling night. Sometimes they can even be more sophisticated, where they will have cognitive behavioral therapy and encourage students to think about managing their stress.

• 15:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up on Freakonomics Radio, we'll learn just how effective Pathways Education was and, what we really want to know, of all those different interventions, which ones were doing the heavy lifting?

• 15:33Speaker 02

  I think it's virtually impossible to even imagine setting up the ideal experiment to investigate that.

• 15:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at SNHU.edu/freakonomics.

• 16:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds, because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So, switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states.

• 17:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the Exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely not YOLO type. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.

• 17:50Speaker 03

  From WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 17:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Philip Oreopolis had heard that Pathways to Education was phenomenally successful at helping kids stay in school and do well. But the source of this rumor was a report that had been commissioned by a Pathways board member. Oreopolis, as a research academic, wanted to look at the data for himself.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Right. So I started engaging Pathways on possibly working with their data a while back. It took me a few years to convince them that I was genuinely trying to evaluate the program and look in the program from a nonpartisan perspective. And I think, to their credit, that they were also interested in having a third party evaluate the program.

• 18:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oreopolis was able to get hold of some publicly available data, but it was when Pathways started feeding him their data that he could really measure what was going on.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  Just prior to the introduction of Pathways' program in 2001, entering grade nine students in 2000, the eventual graduation rate, five-year graduation rate for them was 40%. And two years later, it does jump up quite a bit to almost 60%. So a 20 percentage point increase in the graduation rate for students who were entering from Region Park. And keep in mind, the program was phased in, starting from grade nines entering in 2001. So grade 10s in 2001 were not eligible.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  But grade nines were and then all the grade nines entering afterwards were eligible for pathways. And so you compare that to the change in the graduation rates for the students from other housing projects. The increase in graduation was less than five percentage points. So you had a 20 percentage point increase over two year periods for students from Regent Park. And then you had only a three or four percentage point change in the other projects. So the estimated impact of the program was about a 15 to 16 percentage point increase in the high school graduation rate.

• 20:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Which is huge, yeah?

• 20:14Speaker 02

  It's huge. It's not the large effect that the Boston consulting firm was finding. But still, it's a large enough effect to get really excited about. So not only do I find large increases in the high school graduation, but also about a 20 percentage point increase in college going as well.

• 20:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  So one would think that educators and politicians around the world are looking at this as a beacon of light and saying, hey, let's replicate, replicate, replicate, or adjust to our own needs. Is that the case or no?

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Well, sometimes I describe the Pathways program to people outside of Canada as the Harlem Children's Zone of Canada. We have this interesting program that's relatively young and that people are becoming more aware of that seems to be successful, at least in the settings that have been so far examined. I think the program is certainly intriguing to want to consider possible expansion, both in Canada and in the US. I think overall, there is some effort to try to disentangle what parts of the program, what are the key ingredients that are really driving these positive impacts, and taking from that knowledge ways to expand the program.

• 21:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Philip, in the paper you with your co-authors write, "It is not possible to tell from the results in this paper whether only a few components of the program drive the results or whether its integration is crucial." So can you talk to me about that for a minute? Why you can't tell which of these different interventions are the ones that are moving the needle? And which of these perhaps you suspect are driving the gains?

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Because the analysis simply looks at what happens to these graduation rates or college-going rates before and after the program compared to some comparison groups. The main estimated effects are on the overall impact of the program, what happened when the program was introduced. But of course, that doesn't really say, even with these large impacts, what's driving that, whether it's just one component or one pillar of the program, or whether it's really important that all the services are provided at the same time. I think it's virtually impossible to even imagine setting up the ideal experiment to investigate that. The title of my paper is "An Integrated Approach for Helping Disadvantaged Youth."

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Integrated because I think it may well be that a student who goes to see his SPSW gets advised to make sure that they're going to tutoring. And while they're going to tutoring, they meet some friends or students and then they get encouraged to go to the group activity. And then they keep doing this because they want the incentive. So everything is sort of working together to help ensure the participation.

• 23:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Philip, you write that the cost of this program is nearly $5,000 per student per year. This, of course, is on top of the costs already going to the public school through taxes and so on. And that doesn't include pro bono tutoring and so on. So in some places, you know, $5,000 a year on top of all those other things that are not counted in a dollar fashion here, that buys a kid a good private school education. So considering the cost of this program per head, what can you tell us about overall ROI? So you've said that you found that pathways to education really increases high school completion and post-secondary enrollment a lot. But as large as those gains seem, you know, first of all, it's relatively expensive.

• 23:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  And second of all, it's still barely half of these kids are finishing high school even so and/or going to college.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  If the impact that we're finding from pathways is really correct in terms of a 15 percentage point increase in the high school graduation rate, a 20 percentage point increase in the college going rate, if these translate to higher earnings, say 10% a year or 15% a year, and possible non pecuniary benefits as well, better health, lower crime rates, more social participation, these benefits are huge because they're added up over a lifetime, whereas the cost of pathways is only for a four-year, five-year period. The potential impact from just a small increase in rate of return from these would lead to an increase in lifetime wealth

• 24:39Speaker 02

  that is likely to be quite substantially more than the 20,000 total cost of the program. And in fact, with some back-of-the-envelope estimates, I find that the tax revenue alone from the higher earnings is enough to cover the present value of the program.

• 25:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Philip Oreopolis wanted to measure the efficacy of pathways to education not only because he's an economist who pays attention to education, but because he thinks that most economists who pay attention to education are missing the point.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  For the longest time, economics has modeled education as a well-thought-out investment. And so all decisions are the right ones. If a student decides that he or she doesn't want to study or she wants to drop out of high school, our traditional models say that that's the right thing to do, that they're doing the best that they can under their circumstances and their ability and whatnot. And more recently, economics has started incorporating elements of psychology and sociology and neuroscience to recognize that we don't always get it right when thinking about long-term investment decisions, especially when it has to do with ourselves and these kind of things.

• 26:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  In one of your papers, You make the point that young people, while needing education to do well later, are kind of the worst candidates for understanding how much they need education to do well later. And you open with a quote from Aristotle, which I'd never read, which I love. "The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet."

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Right. My father always mentioned that quote when I was a kid to remind me that however bitter the experience of education is right now, that the effort from staying home on a Friday night or, you know, doing something that doesn't really seem that exciting or fun and requiring concentration and thinking, however tedious, the benefits are long term and they're big. And the difficulty in making these types of decisions is especially true for children and adolescents whose brains are just not even developed at that point when the cortex and parts of the brain that are really focused on trying to imagine the future and think about the consequences

• 27:15Speaker 02

  are taking many years to develop.

• 27:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is this, do you think, a problem that we're only starting to realize now? Or is this something, you know, look, Aristotle knew it. Did we forget it for a few thousand years? And we're just getting back to it? Is it something that you think education folks and ed reform people have known all along?

• 27:33Speaker 02

  I think we're starting to pay more attention to the possibility that a more behavioral model might be a better way of describing how individuals are making schooling decisions. And that opens up to a lot of possibilities for policies. So on the one hand, students may not be getting it always right. That's not to say that they always get it wrong. But on the other hand, there's room with this knowledge to come in and think about alternative ways to help them that we haven't thought about before.

• 28:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  So if you think of education as a form of investing, and as we know, when it comes to financial investing, there are all kinds of mistakes to be made. What kind of mistakes do students make in thinking about education?

• 28:26Speaker 02

  I guess I boil it down to four points. One is that students are often too focused on the present. They de-emphasize the future, or they don't think about it as much as they should. The second is that students tend to over-rely on routine, just keep doing what they've been doing, and not realizing maybe other routines might be better for them. Three is that students sometimes think too much about negative identities. They focus on what they're not good at, or they might hang out with the wrong crowd and be influenced negatively in that way. And the fourth one is that mistakes are more likely in stressful situations

• 29:09Speaker 02

  or in situations where there's not enough information.

• 29:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. So when you talk about that integration, and you talk about all the different components of it, there's the social worker that's attached to the student and the parents, there's the academic tutoring, there's the financial incentives, there's the group activities and the social pillar. When you describe it like that, and when I read about the program itself, it strikes me that, basically, this program is performing the function of a community and the family within the community. So I'm just curious. I know it's attractive because it works well and because it's relatively unusual, but did it strike you at any point that, holy cow, what this program is doing is essentially backfilling for what society and families

• 29:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  used to already be doing on their own, without a special program designed to achieve it?

• 30:03Speaker 02

  It's possible. It's possible that the program is succeeding because there's not enough support at home or in other parts of the community. I think all households, to some degree or other, sometimes miss out on providing encouragement or that nudge towards using services that students themselves may not feel that they want to use. I think one interesting possibility is that the program is working essentially by mandating that a student see someone on a regular basis to talk about their academic goals, to get reminded about why they're in school or where they're going, and to get mandated to use

• 30:47Speaker 02

  tutoring services even if they don't really feel that they have time or that they don't need the help.

• 31:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Carolyn Acker, who helped set up Pathways to Education, was instrumental in making the tutoring mandatory, and she's not even a behavioral economist. Nope. Her background is nursing.

• 31:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Maybe that's where she learned to listen so well.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  The kids actually told us to make tutoring mandatory. After our first year, which we called a pilot year, we brought in the youth, we did focus groups with the tutors and mentor, "How do we improve this?", and we asked the young people, "How do we increase attendance at tutoring?", and the naughtiest boys of all looked at us and said, "You have to make it mandatory." So you see, the young people want structure, and they want to know that somebody's caring about them. We care if you skip school.

• 32:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Thanks for listening to this episode, which followed on last week's episode. And these two episodes follow on the nearly 200 episodes of Freakonomics Radio we've done since the beginning. You can find all of them at Freakonomics.com/radio, then click on the Archives button. And if you subscribe to Freakonomics Radio on iTunes or some other podcast app, we will sneak into your phone every Wednesday at midnight Eastern Time and deliver a new episode just for you.

• 33:04Speaker 03

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• 33:42Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 34:14Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 34:45Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 35:23Speaker 07

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