#2575 - Sam Tallent

Sam Tallent is a comedian, author, and host of the "Chubby Behemoth" podcast. His most recent book is "Brut." He is currently on tour.www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/787018/brut-by-sam-tallent/www.youtube.com/@chubbybehemoth3722www.patreon.com/chubbybehemothwww.samtallent.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Don’t miss out on all the action this week at DraftKings! Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using https://dkng.co/rogan or through my promo code ROGAN. This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://BetterHelp.com/JRE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  There we go. All right, well.

• 0:13Joe Rogan?

  Sam, your book is fucking great.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Thank you, Joe.

• 0:16Joe Rogan?

  It's really good.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Thank you, man.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  It was surprising.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:19Joe Rogan?

  Very interesting. It's, uh, you're a great writer, man.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Thank you, Joe.

• 0:23Joe Rogan?

  You really are.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  I'm very proud of it.

• 0:25Joe Rogan?

  It's really good, man.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 0:26Joe Rogan?

  It's, uh, you know, it's, I mean, you're a very talented comedian, so I shouldn't be surprised. But it's always surprising when someone does something outside of comedy that they're really good at.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  I think you should be surprised. I think you're rightfully surprised that like a filthy nightclub comic who's very good at selling chicken tenders like wrote a book that's kind of beautiful, you know? So, yeah, I take that surprise.

• 0:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, a beautiful book about an assassin, which is even more interesting.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Isn't that fun?

• 0:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  It's so much fun to take a thing we've all heard a million times and then like try and tell it like if it was actually happening in the real world.

• 0:59Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  So I tried to like bring this down into the reality we all share and, uh, it's violent, you know? It's sexy. I get to talk about Paris like it's fucking me. I love it.

• 1:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. What, um, what was the motivation behind, like, how, so like when you decide you're gonna write a book and you decide, you decide you're gonna write a novel, you wrote a novel about comedy before, but this is different. This is, uh, about a hitman. Like, how did this come about?

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Uh, Random House picked up Running the Light, my first novel, and they reissued it and they gave me a two-book deal. And they were like, "What do you want to do for the second book?" And I was like, "I wrote this book kind of about like if I never left my hometown and it's like I'm a loser and I like walk along the side of the highway." Because I love novels about men who walk in like overalls. You know what I mean? Like, there's this like, like Flannery O'Connor, like Larry Brown, there's all these great books about dudes who are like risking their lives for $300 so they can like fix the tires on their pickup truck. So I wanted to write that kind of book about me and I was like, "It's kind of quiet and like inward looking." And they were like, "Do you have literally anything else? That sounds so fucking boring." And I was like, "I got 30 pages about a hitman killing a guy with his gun that's jammed

• 2:08Speaker 01

  and he's like driving it into his skull like a spoon in mango." And they were like, "Run with it, kid." So this thing was like fun to write compared to the other stuff because, uh, it's like a total fantasy, you know?

• 2:19Joe Rogan?

  Where did it come from?

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Um.

• 2:22Joe Rogan?

  Did you, did you just sit down and like, what is your process when you decide you're gonna start writing fiction? Do you have a thought in your mind? Do you sit down and let the thought come to you?

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Literally, I wanted, I had this idea about, um, a hit, a killer trying to kill someone but his gun jams and then him showing human signs of frustration. And I was like, "I want to write that short story about like what's that look like to a guy who's supposed to be the best in the world at his job, but it turns out he's just as capable as all the infinite human failures that we all are?" So that was the 30 pages I had of this and it was gonna be a short story. And then, like I said, I was kind of incentivized by Random House to like, you know, "They're giving me the ball, do some damage." And that's, this is, this is damage, you know? It's like, the cover's awesome.

• 3:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  It looks like a punk rock album that I would have bought when I was a kid, like, it was, I don't want to say it was a commercial decision, but I definitely knew that this was the first time I was gonna be on bookshelves, you know, with a hardcover release. And I wanted to write something that was a easily sellable bit of, you know, pulp fiction. I love all those books.

• 3:31Joe Rogan?

  Mm.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  But I wanted to, you know, hide a love story in there as well and like write about all the things that kind of, I wanted to explore nihilism and like all the existentialism that I like about like French writers and the Japanese like bleak people. And this is kind of like my love letter to a lot of different, whether it's genre fiction, whether it's Paris, whether it's like my friends, you know? Because like, there is, the guy is gay, but like I think I know how to write about loving men a lot more than I do loving women because like I've loved a lot more men. I've never fucked any man in the ass. That'd be pretty sick if I could pull that off, but I'm like trapped by heterosexuality. Like, I would love to like spend a week at a bachelor party with the boys and have the

• 4:16Speaker 01

  most fun fraternity, paintball, ultimate frisbee, maybe if Jamie's there. But, uh, and then at the end of it, wouldn't it be great to just lay down and like blow each other? That'd be cool.

• 4:26Joe Rogan?

  Uh, no.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  That would be cool.

• 4:28Joe Rogan?

  Would it be?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  If we were capable of it.

• 4:30Joe Rogan?

  Well, we're certainly capable of it. At gunpoint, I'm sure people are capable of a lot of things.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Oh, sure, yeah. But I wish I wasn't at gunpoint. I wish I could do that and just be like, "Get in here, Phils."

• 4:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, you are capable of it. You could decide to do it.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  No, I love fat natties and pussy.

• 4:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, then, yeah. So why would it be beautiful to do something that you don't love?

• 4:48Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying is like if I was capable of that, then I think that would be the ultimate expression of male friendship. Would be like, "Get over here, boys," but instead...

• 4:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's what the Spartans did.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  I know, right? And they were cool. A lot of Vikings comforted each other that way.

• 5:02Joe Rogan?

  I think there was a lot of homosexuality all throughout human history before, I think before people started talking.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  For sure. Before they could give labels to things and it was just like holes in the dark and then there was judgment once it's like a term, you know?

• 5:16Joe Rogan?

  Right. And then there was people discussing things like, "Did you hear Mike fucked Tom?"

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 5:22Joe Rogan?

  Like, "Oh, Jesus, Tom? What the fuck?"

• 5:25Speaker 01

  And everyone's living to be 22 and they don't know where fire comes from, but they're still like, "Being gay is gross." That's a funny thing to think of in the cave.

• 5:32Joe Rogan?

  There's also a lot of pederasty going on back then. There was a lot of, uh, a lot of kid fucking. It was very common. And then also having sex with boys, men having sex with boys seems just ubiquitous all throughout history.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was kind of how you broke them in, you know?

• 5:50Joe Rogan?

  Very strange.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:52Joe Rogan?

  Do you know about New Guinea?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Uh, I know about Old Guinea. No, I don't know about New Guinea.

• 5:56Joe Rogan?

  The, uh, Papua New Guinea?

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:59Joe Rogan?

  The, uh, the Semen Warriors? Do you know that story?

• 6:02Speaker 01

  No, but please.

• 6:03Joe Rogan?

  It's rough.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  I'm gonna write down Semen Warriors.

• 6:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, please write it down.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Which could be the name of this book.

• 6:09Joe Rogan?

  Once you hear about this tribe, you're, you're gonna be pretty freaked out.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 6:14Joe Rogan?

  So, um, upon the age, I think it's of six years old, young boys are taken away from their mothers and given to an older man who they call their anal father. And their, uh, the folklore of their tribe is that for a man to grow strong, they must consume sperm, uh, anally and orally.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  They think they have a mouth in their butt?

• 6:42Joe Rogan?

  No, but that's, they take, they take it.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:45Joe Rogan?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 6:46Speaker 01

  No, I, yeah.

• 6:47Joe Rogan?

  You get it.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  I guess consume, I'm sorry. I got caught up on that.

• 6:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, they have to consume it in the mouth and then they take it in the butt. And then they, uh, they just get mouth fucked and butt fucked.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:56Joe Rogan?

  And this is, uh, like the tradition amongst this tribe.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Well, who are we to judge, Joe?

• 7:02Joe Rogan?

  But it's just, you gotta wonder like how that started and how you got everybody to go along with it. You know, "Hey, give me your six-year-old, I'm gonna mouth fuck him."

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:11Joe Rogan?

  Because that's how he's gonna grow strong.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Do you think it was tied to like, there was probably some like, you know, exploitative pervert who was in control?

• 7:19Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  And then there was like, he was already doing these bad things and then there was like a record harvest that year. And then he was like, "Well, if you guys want to keep getting these record harvests, keep letting me fuck your kids in all their holes."

• 7:32Joe Rogan?

  Perhaps.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Right?

• 7:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it wouldn't be a harvest because these are hunter-gatherers. It's a very primitive tribe, so it would be, you know?

• 7:38Speaker 01

  So the biggest caribou ever was landed that year?

• 7:41Joe Rogan?

  Something along, wouldn't be caribou, different geographic locations.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  What goes on down there?

• 7:46Joe Rogan?

  Uh, it's jungle.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:47Joe Rogan?

  So it's, uh...

• 7:48Speaker 01

  So it's like a macaw with the prettiest bill.

• 7:50Joe Rogan?

  They probably eat a lot of monkeys. Yeah.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Isn't that how you get prion diseases?

• 7:54Joe Rogan?

  You can, yeah.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Well, maybe that's why they're fucking all the kids, because they got monkey brain.

• 7:59Joe Rogan?

  They also are cannibals, so you get prion diseases from that as well. But apparently prion diseases from cannibalism were a lot more rare than I thought. I was talking to, who is, uh, the guy who is explaining us? Daniel Everett? Is that who it was?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Jimmy, remember the cannibal you had on?

• 8:16Joe Rogan?

  No, he was a, a guy who's spent time with a lot of indigenous tribes.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:21Joe Rogan?

  And there's two different types of cannibalism that they engage in. One of them is cannibalism of your enemies.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:30Joe Rogan?

  And the other one is cannibalism of your loved ones.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:33Joe Rogan?

  So when you kill your enemies, you eat them.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:36Joe Rogan?

  And then when your loved ones die, they, it's a really disgusting process. They would let them sit for three days.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Like a jerky.

• 8:44Joe Rogan?

  And putrefy and they, they would put buckets underneath the body to, uh, capture the liquefying, the putrefying fluids and then they would dunk their sweet potatoes into the putrefied liquids.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:58Joe Rogan?

  And eat it.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  So it's kind of like a human candied sweet potato.

• 9:01Joe Rogan?

  Something along those lines.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 9:03Joe Rogan?

  And then they, they would eat, they would consume. He was talking about this one guy who was working with him who had to leave the project because he had to go back home and eat one of his relatives because they had died. And so he had to be a part of this ritual. So he had to, he had to depart. He had to go on his hero's journey.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 9:21Joe Rogan?

  God damn.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Well.

• 9:22Joe Rogan?

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• 12:07Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, it seems like there's a lot of, like, you know, kid exploitation at all levels of, like, high power. Maybe power just ultimately leads to, like, that. Once you've had every delicacy on the buffet of life, then you're like, what's left? And it's like, well.

• 12:22Joe Rogan?

  You're at a ditty party.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You're at a ditty party, diddling.

• 12:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, why, you know, why, when you, I have this bit on stage about like, what happens? Like, how do you get to that point where you're hiring 15 male prostitutes to fuck your girlfriend in front of you? Like, it's because you've seen everything. You've done it, you've done too much. And then also drugs. Drugs play a giant part in that. Like, extreme deviancy.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:48Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Most of the worst decisions I've made have been very high. And not on pot. You know, like, whatever. I remember there was this weird opium going around Denver in, like, 2006, and they called it Red Dragon. And me and my friends, you know, were reading a lot of, like, Burroughs, and we're like, let's get some of this Red Dragon.

• 13:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  And boy, howdy, if it didn't lead me to... The only time I've ever committed any kind of, like, big property theft is we were all fucked up on this Red Dragon, and we walked by a construction site, and my buddy Krusty was like, hey, these lights go for, like, $800 a pop. And next thing I know, I'm just, like, carrying two huge, like, construction lights down the street. And the cops came, and they, like, see, like, a giant man, you know? And I, like, put him down, and they were like, what are you doing with those lights? And I was like, oh, I thought we were supposed to set up for work here. And they were like, okay, carry on.

• 13:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, nice.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so then I was just like, you know, I was like, I gotta do opium forever. It makes me bulletproof. Apparently, under the powers of opium, I'm the most persuasive person ever. And then that kind of drug logic, you try and apply it to, like, charming your teachers or whatever it is, and you're, like, on the nod in rhetoric class.

• 13:57Joe Rogan?

  How old were you when you were doing this?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  18, 19.

• 14:00Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so this is college, like, first years of college? And how were you consuming this opium? You smoking it?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, smoking it. We bought, like, a very, like, we all pooled our money to get, like, a special opium pipe.

• 14:12Joe Rogan?

  What do they look like?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  I can't, I was so high on opium. I don't know. And we were always smoking it in the back of someone's car, you know? So it's like, the ritual of it was never there. It was like, let's get high and, like, go to Cece's Pizza Buffet.

• 14:24Joe Rogan?

  That is a ritual. It's not traditional.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Oh, dude.

• 14:27Joe Rogan?

  All rituals eventually become traditional for you.

• 14:29Speaker 04

  Is it, was it this stuff, do you know?

• 14:31Speaker 01

  No, but.

• 14:32Speaker 04

  Dragon's blood? Something like that? Because they're, I'm looking it up. I typed in Red Dragon opium, but it says it's actually not opium, and it was sold back then.

• 14:40Joe Rogan?

  What is it?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  I mean, it could have easily been fake.

• 14:43Joe Rogan?

  It does not contain opium.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, awesome.

• 14:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so what is it?

• 14:46Speaker 04

  One article, I think I just clicked on, said it potentially was, like, the THC9 stuff, maybe like an early version of it.

• 14:52Joe Rogan?

  Huh. What year is this?

• 14:54Speaker 01

  2005, '06.

• 14:55Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  Missed branded as a drug, she said, uh, Delta 9.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Okay. It was an unknown red substance. That was exactly what we were purchasing.

• 15:05Joe Rogan?

  So you guys thought it was opium?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Literally, a man named Snake from Garden City, Kansas, said, this is opium, and we were like, awesome. And he was a white guy with dreadlocks in 2005, so it was still brave.

• 15:18Joe Rogan?

  Like a Gary Oldman-looking dude?

• 15:20Speaker 01

  God, Gary Oldman. We'd be lucky if he looked like Gary Oldman.

• 15:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, do you remember that from, what was it from? True Romance?

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, yeah.

• 15:28Joe Rogan?

  Dude.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  No, it was more of, like, the Matrix Twins.

• 15:32Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Remember those albino twins on the Matrix who fought? You know what I'm talking about?

• 15:37Joe Rogan?

  Matrix Twins.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  The movie The Matrix.

• 15:39Joe Rogan?

  The Albinos?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:41Joe Rogan?

  Why do I not remember?

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Jamie.

• 15:42Speaker 04

  They're in the sequel. They're like the.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Show me a couple albino twins.

• 15:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, the sequel.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, these, yeah, this is what he looked like.

• 15:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy, I don't remember those guys.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, now I do. Okay, okay, okay.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  And he, uh, he was kind of our, our doula, in a way.

• 15:58Joe Rogan?

  Boy, so...

• 16:00Speaker 01

  I moved from a very small town to Denver, and I was easily tricked into all types of, like, romantic notions. I was a rube, yeah.

• 16:08Joe Rogan?

  And Burroughs got you in. What Burroughs book specifically?

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Oh, man, probably Queer and Junkie. Those two for sure. Naked Lunch always seemed like he was jerk. I hated it.

• 16:19Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, it's like, look, I understand that you're, like, Jackson Pollock-ing, and you've earned that right as, like, a master of the form, like, as a writer. He wrote Queer, he wrote Junkie, he wrote other things that were easily digestible, and now he's kind of letting his freak flag fly and, like, swinging his dick. But like, at the end of the day, as a reader, it's really hard to, like, enjoy a book that doesn't have any discernible story.

• 16:42Joe Rogan?

  I see.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Like, I still like a plot, you know what I mean?

• 16:44Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it was Queer and Junkie. And my dad was cool. My dad gave me really cool books early on and, like, good music. So...

• 16:54Speaker 01

  And also Hunter, obviously, like, Hunter S. Thompson is a huge deal, especially because we were in Colorado. So like, there was, like, the Owl Farm thing. Like, my dad would like, we're gonna go up to Owl Farm. And I don't think he ever did, but it was always an aspiration.

• 17:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I think his next wife still lives there.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And my friend Liz, like, worked for her. And, uh, I would really love... You want to hear, like, a petty memory I have?

• 17:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  You know how you, like, like, I'm at Shane's thing, and Jamie is, like, talking to Bam Margera? And I'm like, life is big enough to include the fact that, like, I'm watching Jamie talk to Bam Margera while my friend does Eagle Stadium? Like, there's all these weird little, like, so, uh... What the fuck was I talking about?

• 17:42Joe Rogan?

  How did you start this?

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, how did I start this?

• 17:45Joe Rogan?

  Okay, we went from THC to the pale Matrix guys, to Hunter S. Thompson, to Owl Farm.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  To Owl Farm.

• 17:53Joe Rogan?

  To...

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Oh, petty, being petty.

• 17:55Joe Rogan?

  Petty.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  So I remember in, like, 2008, there was this guy in Denver who, like, got to go finish his novel at Owl Farm.

• 18:03Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was like, everyone was like, that's so cool. And I, of course, was like a jock comedian who was like, fuck him, he's a poser, you know? Then his book came out, and I read it, and I was like, damn, it's pretty moving. I love the second part, you know? So it's like, I still remember that guy. And I hit up my friend Liz, and I was like, hey, could I, like, maybe go finish this book, like, at Owl Farm? And she was like, they don't do that anymore. And I was like, I remember the guy's name. I was like, you let blank do it? And she was like, oh, how do you remember that? No one ever remembers that. And I was like, I remember it because of spite, you know? There's like a lot of things that I only remember because it made me mad and feel weak.

• 18:42Joe Rogan?

  That's funny. But that's at a different stage of your life. The stage of your life where you're trying to get something going, trying to succeed, you're very vulnerable to spite, very vulnerable to envy.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Well, it's a real pure burning fuel.

• 18:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  You know, rage, hate, all these things.

• 18:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  They really get you, your octane up quick.

• 19:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, unfortunately, it consumes the vessel that's holding it.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It's the worst one. It's a poison. It's corrosive.

• 19:08Joe Rogan?

  It's a poison.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's very sad to see people that you like fall prey to that. Or people that you have liked in the past, who you see them lash out at people that are doing well. And you realize it's, it's, it's so, the map is so clear. It's because they're not doing well. It's always what it is.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Well, it's easier to be mad at people than to better your own position. It's like, I lost all this weight, and people are like, you look sick. And like, beforehand, people were like, look how fat this guy is. He's the fattest guy ever. And it's like, all right, what do you want? Why are you guys so obsessed with my body?

• 19:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, there is no solution. You cannot make everyone happy. It will not happen. It's impossible.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  And when you do try to make everyone happy, the shit that you make as, like, an artist is so bad.

• 19:51Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Because you're trying to make shit for, you know, the comment section. And it's like, I never got in, when I got into stand-up, it was 2005, and like, all the things that we have to do now as comedians weren't there. You could just, like, be funny, maybe do coning, and then, like, you gotta do all the funny bones. And like, that was all I wanted. I wanted to, like, be in clubs. And now all the shit that surrounds comedy is, like, super embarrassing and cringe. And I hate it. Like promo, you know, like, make the Instagram posts, like, you know, any of that shit that's like... Like, like, all the shit that my super successful friends are good at is shit that makes me wanna like buy a bullet and rent a gun, you know? Like, I wanna like hang myself from a sturdy rope when I'm like, "Oh yeah, I gotta get engagement.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  I need to comment the first thirty minutes that the post is up so that more people will see it." It's like, "I wanna pay someone so much money to do all of this, so I don't have to anymore."

• 20:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, you could, or you could just post that's where you're gonna be and then just leave it alone. That's probably the best solution, cuz your fans certainly wanna know when you're going to be somewhere, and it sucks if you find out that a comic that you love came to your town and you missed out because they didn't post about it. So you wanna know, so just make a post.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  I do.

• 21:06Joe Rogan?

  Just make it, I know you do, but I mean, this is my advice to people that get cringed out by that. Just make a post and walk away. Yeah, and then people are gonna like, "Fuck you, fuck this, fuck that." They're gonna do that. The comments are gonna be filled with all sorts of nonsense and you're gonna feel weird about it, so just don't look at it.

• 21:22Speaker 01

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• 22:52Speaker 01

  It's more that it feels fraudulent to me.

• 22:55Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? It's not so much I'm worried about people disliking whatever dumb promo post I put, it's just like, I'm worried that people will be able to understand how hollow the sentiment is that I'm communicating. Like, I'm going to the Funny Bone in Hartford this weekend, I'm stoked to be there.

• 23:10Joe Rogan?

  Hartford, Connecticut?

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But I think, to any of the people who like go to that club and have been going to that club, if I were to say, "I'm coming to my favorite club in the country, the Hartford Funny Bone," they'd be like, "This guy's a fucking liar." "We go there." It's, he can't possibly be, how many other clubs does he do?

• 23:26Joe Rogan?

  Unless you really like people that are stuck, you don't like Connecticut. People are stuck.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  The WWE.

• 23:34Joe Rogan?

  And by the way, one of my best friends lives in Connecticut. I should just say, I love people in Connecticut, but I used to say that Connecticut's not a real state. It's a highway between Boston and New York.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  I think that's fair.

• 23:43Joe Rogan?

  It's real. Listen, I performed in Connecticut a lot in my early days, and it is the worst place on earth. Not on earth, not true, I'm sure. Performing in Iraq currently would probably be a lot worse.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  I bet it's electric when you kill, though. I bet if you can get a standing O, that's a good feeling, bro. Inshallah, baby.

• 24:04Joe Rogan?

  It's just, there's a thing about Connecticut, it's like, they're stuck.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:08Joe Rogan?

  They're stuck. Or they're really rich and they chose to not live in New York City. And so they live in like, there's these like very bizarre towns that are extremely, like, where my buddy, who's a good, I've been friends with this guy for thirty-four years, I think, he worked at a high school, in like a private school, a very ritzy private school, like Keith Richards brought his kids there, like, a lot of these very famous people, very, very wealthy people, billionaires, they have these massive estates in Connecticut. That's Connecticut, and then the rest of Connecticut is sort of this weird highway.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:45Joe Rogan?

  Where people are stuck.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  And also, like, where Yale is, you go to the Yale campus, and it's like beautiful, historic, and then you walk like three blocks away.

• 24:52Joe Rogan?

  It's fucking New Haven.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like very impoverished, and, you know, the crimes of desperation happen there a lot.

• 24:59Joe Rogan?

  But the greatest pizza on earth.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  I love that stuff.

• 25:02Joe Rogan?

  New Haven pizza.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that thin, what do they call it, like an epice?

• 25:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, a pizza.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Are you that kind of Italian?

• 25:09Joe Rogan?

  What kind is that?

• 25:10Speaker 01

  The kind who like says like, you know, like, "Gabbagool," you know? Like, do you put the stink on it?

• 25:14Joe Rogan?

  I don't say that.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  You should.

• 25:16Joe Rogan?

  I don't, no. I've kind of left that at a very early age.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  You're like the last remaining Italian, man. You gotta get out there.

• 25:24Joe Rogan?

  There's a few.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  I know, but like...

• 25:26Joe Rogan?

  Go to the East Coast, there's a lot. A lot of us left.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  That are in positions of prominence.

• 25:30Joe Rogan?

  I see.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Cuz I grew up in a world where Italians, it was like, they were cool, you know?

• 25:35Joe Rogan?

  That was cuz of The Sopranos.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Dude, and of course, all those great mob movies really made it...

• 25:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but they made Italians way too cocky. There's a lot of Italians that thought it was really cool just to be Italian because all these, like, a lot of guys, "They put it on ya, hey, fucking, you gonna hang out with Johnny?" Like, they added to it.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm saying you should do that. That's exactly what I'm saying you should do, become one of those guys.

• 25:57Joe Rogan?

  It's too late.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  I don't know, you can change, man.

• 25:59Joe Rogan?

  Mitzi Shore, she used to have this show, Night of a Thousand Guidos. She would do like this, an Italian show, and she asked me to do it, once I did, it was like, it was so embarrassing, cuz a lot of the people on the show, other than guys like Don Magraro, who are great comics who just happen to be Italian, a lot of the people were only on because they were Italian, and she was finding like mediocre Italian comics to be on the show, and it was just fucking hell.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm also regretting, I'm not trying to say any negative Italian sentiment, I realize I'm going to Governors in Long Island on Wednesday, so, Italians, you know I love ya, but you know, please...

• 26:33Joe Rogan?

  Great club, by the way, Governors.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  My agent said I was the only person who asked to go back to Governors after their first time.

• 26:41Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, I loved it there.

• 26:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I love Long Island.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  It feels like the road.

• 26:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I love Long Island.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  It reminds me of like real comedy when I started.

• 26:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. When I lived in New York, I very rarely did the city, because I was a road comic in Boston, you know? Like, Boston, the way it works is, if you're real clean, or in the eighties, if you're real clean, you could work the clubs in town, but if you're not clean, most of your work is gonna be in the bars, outside. And so that's what I did. I did mostly bar shows. And so I was traveling around here to there, I was doing, you know, Revere and all these different places. And when I went to New York, I was like, if I'm in town, I do ten minutes, I make ten bucks, or whatever the fuck it was, or I could just do the road and make like two hundred dollars and do an hour. Like, why would I do, I'll do that. So I did Long Island.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  I was the exact same way, bro.

• 27:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, it's like also, like Hicks was a big hero of mine, and I know he was like, he was an anomaly in that he wasn't a city comic, he was a road comic. He was like one of the most brilliant, but yet was doing his kind of comedy to people that wouldn't necessarily go to see his type of comedy if they knew what it was.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's what was so like, that's why he became such a force.

• 27:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Because I think a lot of comedy now, like, people do comedy for people who think exactly like them.

• 27:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  And like, I can do a papered room, and I'm like, I'm very proud of that. Like, cuz it's not like, you know, I'm not moving every ticket every weekend, so sometimes they'll be like, "Late show Saturday, we're gonna paper fifty," and I'm like, "Yeah."

• 28:11Joe Rogan?

  For papered, for people don't know what we're talking about, it's like free tickets.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Free tickets.

• 28:15Joe Rogan?

  They give away free tickets so they can sell liquor.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. Cuz they want the two drinks in there, and they don't care what you're up to, or if the show's gonna go well, because they're gonna make an extra four hundred dollars on Bud Light.

• 28:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the problem with that, I've always found, is that I did a lot of those shows too, but the people aren't very invested in the show, so you get a lot of chatty folks.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  And they don't watch a clip, so when you say a word that they don't like, they're like, "What the fuck is this?" And it's like, you couldn't watch me do one minute before you decided to drive down here and get parking, you know? It's so strange. You wouldn't do that at a music show. You're gonna listen to a song before you go to the show.

• 28:50Joe Rogan?

  Maybe, I mean, maybe if you wanted to, well, it depends on the kind of club. See, I think that's one of the issues with comedy, and I talk about this a lot, is that like, comedy has one genre, whereas music, you know, if you're going to a music club and you see hip hop, and then Guns N' Roses, and then Joni Mitchell, you'd be like, "What the fuck kind of club is this? This is crazy." Whereas in comedy, you could see all sorts of different perspectives and styles. You could see, you know, loud people, people who do music, people who do all kinds of weird shit on stage. Like, comedy has no, I mean, it does have genres, you know? I mean, especially to people that like to classify things, that like to put things

• 29:31Joe Rogan?

  into categories and boxes, and, but the reality is, it's just perspectives, it's just comedy's, here's the world through my eyes, and everyone is different. And it's like, you don't know if you're gonna go see Guns N' Roses, or if you're gonna go see Barry Manilow. You really don't know. If you're just gonna go see comedy, like, let's go to Cap City and go to the comedy club, and let's see who's there this weekend. You know, Bob Fuckface, "Oh, okay, I hope he's good." Well, he's at Cap City, it's gotta be good. And so you go there, and then, you know, you hope it's something that you'll laugh at.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  And that was me at many of the Looney Bins for about seven years.

• 30:05Joe Rogan?

  Sure, me too.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  It was like, I was Bob Fuckface.

• 30:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  And I got really good at that.

• 30:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  And then if you can get good at that when you first get your opportunity to like... If people are going to get free tickets because it's their birthday in three months and they just so happen to win them right now and they go see you. If you can trick half those people into coming back next time.

• 30:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Like, that was always my big thing. Like, when I first started getting these big opportunities, like when Tim Dillon took me on the road. Uh, when I first got on this show or Kill Tony, people start coming out for the first time to see me. And I was not concerned with that first time. I'm concerned with the next time.

• 30:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Cause I want them to come back and bring two people and then the next time bring eight people.

• 30:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  So it's like, I was very grateful, but also aware that like this was my opportunity to plant seeds that would grow later on.

• 30:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's what we used to do back in the day. It was called building a market.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 30:56Joe Rogan?

  And you would just go into a town and it was a slow, laborious process that took years.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  And I did that.

• 31:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Forty people in Omaha to eighty to one sixty to adding shows and it's like.

• 31:07Joe Rogan?

  That's fun.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  It was great.

• 31:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's a really satisfying, rewarding thing when you've actually built a market.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels good. And when people come out now and they're like, this is the seventh time I've seen you. It's like.

• 31:19Joe Rogan?

  That's nice.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  I feel good, but I'm also immediately like, shit, I hope I had like all new stuff.

• 31:24Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right, right.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  I know I have fifty new, but I still have five. I'm closing on from last time I was in Chicago.

• 31:29Joe Rogan?

  And also if someone's a Sam Tallent fan, like, boy, you gotta get, you can't be nonchalant about that show. You gotta get fired up.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, and they are.

• 31:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  I'm so grateful. And also now I get these like kids who come out, because I'll do like Hive Mind or Gillis, like the people who get like young people, like in their demographics.

• 31:46Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  So now I have like twenty-two year olds at the shows and man, you can see on their faces, it's the first time they haven't been on their phone for ninety minutes in their entire life. And they're sitting there and they like don't know what to do. And then I'll be like, hey, nice hat, stupid. And they're like.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Cause like, they don't know the rules or the conventions of this thing they're at. And then at the merch line afterward, they're always like, that was my first show. And I'm like, bro, I think I set the bar pretty high.

• 32:13Joe Rogan?

  Like Jeremy Clarkson.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:15Joe Rogan?

  You know, you know who he is?

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Uh-huh.

• 32:17Joe Rogan?

  He came to Kill Tony the other night and he said it was his first time at a comedy club.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 32:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  And that's so.

• 32:24Joe Rogan?

  Like, he didn't know what Kill Tony was, didn't understand it. Jimmy Carr took him.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Weird.

• 32:28Joe Rogan?

  And, uh, he was like, wh- what is Kill Tony?

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:32Joe Rogan?

  Like, he didn't understand how it worked.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  It's a gong show, sir.

• 32:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:36Joe Rogan?

  It's basically the gong show.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. He's like, my god. You're reinventing the form.

• 32:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, he just didn't know what it was. He was like, you know, how's this work?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  I think it's a deeply American phenomenon.

• 32:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh, stand-ups, most certainly.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  No, I mean Kill Tony specifically.

• 32:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Cause I did the one at the O2 in London that no one will ever see because it was so bad. Like, it had to be buried in the desert.

• 32:59Joe Rogan?

  What was bad about it?

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Oh, my god. Has Tony ever talked about this with you?

• 33:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he told me it was hell.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Oh, it was the worst thing that's ever happened to me as an artist. It was brutal. We get there.

• 33:11Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  And I, we get there, man, and, uh, you know, it's like the biggest thing ever. Uh, I'm very flattered to be asked to be on it. Uh, we, we get there and the show is starting later. And the people who work at the, the security people are like. These are people that we traditionally don't get attending performances. A lot of these people took the train in or came from the countryside and they're, um. It seems like they're drinking beers in the parking lot. And I was like, yo, they're tailgating? And they were like, what's that mean? And I was like, oh, you guys aren't aware of this phenomenon. So we get out there and he put out the band and the band plays for a while.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  And, uh, we're all in the back and they're waiting for people to trickle in. And before the show starts, there's various fistfights and be, people are being removed for doing cocaine at their seats, like at Studio 54. So we're in the back and like.

• 34:02Joe Rogan?

  Oh, this sounds great. What happened wrong?

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Oh, well, hold on. Let me get to the funny part. So. So dude, we come out finally and Red Band and Tony get their due aplomb. And then they're like, are you ready for your guest? And everyone is.

• 34:18Joe Rogan?

  I like that Tony impression.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Everyone's.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Who's ready? Uh, this man is a legend in show business. And they, I think everyone thinks it's Pierce Morgan, because I was told Pierce Morgan was gonna do it. So I have all these great jokes about, uh, calling him double oh seven. I was gonna fuck him up and call him Pierce Brosnan the whole night. So I have like about thirty minutes of funny Pierce Morgan jokes. Right, yeah, it would've been great. Pierce Morgan can't make it. So it's just Sam Tallent. And when they say, Sam Tallent, people are like, alright, cool. And they're waiting for someone else, probably a British celebrity. No, no, it's just me. So we sit down and we do our best. And the first comic who comes out is a bucket person, you know? Or no, I think, I can't remember who went first, but the first bucket comes out.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  And they say, uh, so I rode the train in from Essex and a packed O2 starts screaming, fuck Essex! Your dogs! Everyone from Essex fucks their mother! Back up north, you pikey! Like.

• 35:20Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  It's insane. And then this comic is immediately, his ego is shattered, his brains exploded. It's his worst nightmare ever. There's an arena screaming at him. And then he has to stumble into his punchline, goes terribly. Tried to do the interview and it's like, so how long have you been doing it? And he's like, looking around like he just came out of a coma, you know? And he's like, oh, this is my first time ever doing stand-up.

• 35:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  I think of the bucket pulls on that show, the most tenured performer had done it six times.

• 35:53Joe Rogan?

  Holy shit.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  You had a literal arena full of people who have taken the train or flown in from all over Europe for this. And then dude, like, there, so there was very, every time a comic would say, so, you know, I'm from Pakistan, every slur you've ever heard from snuff comes out, you know, like. And me and Tony and Red Band are up there like.

• 36:16Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck is going on?

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Get to the joke, you know, okay, you know? So every time anyone says anything, people scream. There's fistfights going on. There's people screaming up constantly. And then dude, this guy came out and said, so I'm from Israel. That's his opener.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  The room immediately turns. And I, there's a, there's an Irish contingency up front because people have flags, like it's WWE. So there's an Irish contingency over here and there's a Northern Irish contingency over here. And both of them decide that they're gonna agree on fuck Israel. And the guy on, so they start yelling like, fuck you, you genocidal pig, you monster, you should be ashamed of yourself. And the comic on stage says, from the river to the sea or whatever. And at that point, a guy tries to climb the barricade, one of the Irish dudes. And I'm like, I say to Tony, it's the only time I've ever used the mute button. I'm like, dude, we gotta get him out of here. This isn't safe.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Like, this guy has to go. So Tony immediately is like, okay, and like threw him a joke book, get him out of there. It devolved so bad by the end that, um. Like, when we walked off, I, once the show ends, I went into the green room and literally like put my hands on the sink and stared into the mirror for like five minutes.

• 37:32Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was like, do I want this? Like, do I aspire to be an arena act? Like, this was the worst thing that ever fucking happened to me, like. And then, you know. God bless him. It was Tony's birthday weekend, so we were having a lot of fun. And this was actually when me and Tony became like friends, friends, because I gotta spend like three days with him and like his brother, like, seeing him be a guy. It was fun. But, uh, Tony, it's his birthday, they bring him a cake, and I'm like rocked, man. I'm shattered, you know, I'm like. I called my wife. I was like, honey, maybe I can like become a teacher. I think, I think Wayne State would let me like teach, you know?

• 38:11Joe Rogan?

  How many years ago was this?

• 38:12Speaker 01

  This was two years ago, yeah. It was right out, I was in Paris all of May of twenty twenty-four, finishing this. And then I went and did that after my month in Paris. And, uh, they bring in this cake for Tony, for his birthday. And it's like, hey, you sold out the O2, like you're the number one selling podcast in the history of the O2 arena. And everyone sings him happy birthday. And I hear Tony say, they spelt my name wrong. And it's like, bro, this is like all of your dreams coming true? And he still was like, oh, they fucked up my name. And I was like, okay, yeah, I gotta, I gotta figure out what I actually wanna do. Cause like, it's not being an arena act. And then everywhere we would walk, it's like, you know, when you, like, you're insanely famous. You're probably the most famous guy I know.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  And like I, we haven't like chilled in public, but I've been in public with Will Smith. I've been in public with Shane Gillis. They can't go anywhere. Like, there's like tunnels in every building that are like for Will Smith and guys like Shane. It's like Shane, we do Grand Rapids. He can't walk and get a coffee in the morning. It's an hour and a half procedure. Cause everyone that sees him has to get a picture. It's like you can no longer exist as a person. It's like, I would much rather not be hyper-rich. And like still be able to just go in the world than like to have all the money. Like, what do you, how is it? What's it like?

• 39:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's odd. But it is what it is.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:34Joe Rogan?

  You just accept it. The key is like, the real problem is people interrupt things. Like they want to interrupt dinners, they want to come over to your table. That's, that's a problem. That's, that's an issue. And it's, it's a little rude while they're interrupting while you're in the middle of a meal. I know they're just trying to be nice. But in public, the key is just you gotta, you gotta learn to reset with every person that you meet.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:58Joe Rogan?

  Like, reset. This is a completely new, it's just not, oh my god, another person. You have to reset.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Have an honest interaction.

• 40:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  A sincere interaction.

• 40:06Joe Rogan?

  And, but the, the real problem is then it becomes a line. And then it becomes a thing where people who don't even know who the fuck you are want to take a picture with you.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Dude, we were, we were in that coffee shop with Shane and an old Asian man came over and it was just like, in Chinese or whatever, Mandarin was like,

• 40:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Picture our picture? And Shane looks at me and he's like, this guy doesn't speak English. Let's get a photo.

• 40:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  He had no idea who he was, but he saw everyone taking pictures with this guy.

• 40:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just like-

• 40:29Joe Rogan?

  That's a weird thing with cameras, with phones. Cameras and phones. And then social media likes. You know, if you have a picture with Shane Gillis, you're gonna get thousands of likes.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  For sure. But then you're just an object to be used to exploit. And it's like-

• 40:42Joe Rogan?

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• 41:21Joe Rogan?

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• 42:00Joe Rogan?

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• 42:45Joe Rogan?

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• 42:58Speaker 01

  I don't know, man.

• 42:59Joe Rogan?

  You gotta learn how to handle it. And it's, uh, it's not normal.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Do you think our brains can learn to handle it?

• 43:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you can handle it.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  You think so?

• 43:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I handle it pretty good. I handle it pretty good. But it's, uh, it's not for everybody, and it's definitely not easy. It's, it's odd. And it's not something that I ever asked for. I mean, I wasn't looking for it. It's like, it just happened. And so you just have to say, okay, well, this is what life is now.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:25Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's not the worst thing. I mean, online, it's horrible. People hate me online.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  I know.

• 43:29Joe Rogan?

  A lot of people do. But in real life, people are very nice.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:32Joe Rogan?

  Like, almost always. And even if they disagree with me, you know, they're, once they have a few words with me, they realize I'm very reasonable.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Well, it's like, they've made you and like Shane and Tony into like very convenient targets, cause like, you know, pain leans to panic, and panic leads to fear, and fever leads to anger, and anger leads to hate. So it's like, you have been made this billboard. Here's what I think it is, man, is like, media died, right? Like, in our lifetimes? Like, there's no more newspapers.

• 43:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Right? Like, there's no more radio. Like, TV's not there anymore. So like, everyone's looking around being like, what the fuck happened? And there's this guy named Dennis Johnson, who's my favorite writer ever. And he said, uh, when drastic changes occur, it's much easier to say it's a crime and ask who did it, as opposed to saying it's a failure and to ask what happened. So I feel like they're trying to assign a lot of blame to people because everyone's like, what, what's going on? And then they look and you're the biggest thing. You know? Shane's the biggest thing. So it's like, okay, we can all decide that like, this person who's replaced the media that we had is the enemy.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  And it's like, okay, well, The New York Times can write as many op-eds on how you're the enemy of progress, but like, will they call it a genocide? No. So it's like, who the fuck are we supposed to trust or believe? And like, I always say, dude, cause like, I have a bunch of leftist friends who get mad that I come on your show. You know? Yeah, like, whatever. Like, I lived in, I lived in an anarchist commune, you know, like-

• 45:04Joe Rogan?

  Did you really?

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, like-

• 45:05Joe Rogan?

  Wow. We'll talk about that in a moment.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I was a punk rocker. I still am, I hope. But it's like, I really would have loved to have been in the era of comedy where you like go on Conan, and then you get to sell your tickets, you know? But it's like, how is you, one guy, who's independent, you know, I guess Spotify's money is involved or whatever, but they don't fucking censor you, right?

• 45:27Joe Rogan?

  They don't do anything.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's like, one guy being independent and having conversations, how is that worse than like, the facade of going on Kimmel, or going on Fallon, or going on Conan back in the day? And like, yeah, like, these are like, good guys who are silly. But ultimately, they're on NBC, who's owned by whatever holding company, who's owned by one of the seven corporations who owns the world. And like, their whole thing is selling ad space for like Nestle and fucking BlackRock, or whatever subsidiary is like the one they put the face on. Like, that was bad, but it was fine. So now you're one guy who's having conversations, and they're like, this is bad. This is, this is cancerous.

• 46:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's completely normal to always, to attack the most popular thing.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:13Joe Rogan?

  Always. You know, always the most popular thing is bad. No matter what it is. If it's a film, if it's music, if it's a podcast, whatever it is, it's always bad. And, you know, it's, you're always going to have that. It's just, you're, you're not gonna fix people. You're not gonna fix perspectives and give people clarity and give people the ability to make sort of rational, objective, charitable observations about who a person actually is. It's very easy to just caricaturize someone.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:48Joe Rogan?

  And so, I get it.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  And then if you are a person who will defend these guys in these spaces, it's like, well then, okay, you're brainwashed, you're co-opted. And it's like-

• 46:57Joe Rogan?

  You just have to stop listening to comments. Like, that's really the most important thing.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  No, these are like face-to-face conversations, you know what I mean?

• 47:03Joe Rogan?

  Right. But you're probably talking to broken people.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know. I'm talking to my friends. I'm talking to people who-

• 47:09Joe Rogan?

  Aren't your friends broken?

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, most of them are comics.

• 47:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  But also, dude, it's weird, cause like, I talk to people a lot who I don't share, like, the exact ideals with. Like, I don't like that you fucking endorse Trump, but like, I have a lot of friends who voted for Trump. And it's like, a lot of people don't ever hang out with anyone else who thinks different, because first of all, we don't hang out face-to-face. You're not meeting new people. Everyone works from home. Everyone's online. No one's bowling or fucking playing pool anymore. You know what I mean?

• 47:39Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  So it's like, yeah, you can, you can disagree with someone and still know that they're like, a decent person. And like, I like to define myself on, am I a good husband? Am I a good uncle? Am I a good son? Am I a good brother? And it's like, if I thought that you guys were bad, like, I wouldn't fucking do business with you. It's asinine. It makes me so mad, bro. Anyway, I'm sorry.

• 48:02Joe Rogan?

  No, it's fine. Listen, it used to be that people used to be able to differ in their opinions-

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:08Joe Rogan?

  And have conversations.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Cause they were your neighbors.

• 48:10Joe Rogan?

  But today, we have become so divided, and I think a big factor is social media, echo chambers, propaganda bots, gaslighting. And then there's, it seems like there's so much riding on everything constantly, because you're looking at your phone all the time.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 48:30Joe Rogan?

  And everything on the phone is, this is the end. This is the end. This is the beginning of the end. This is a signal of the end. The only hope is to stop this. And on both sides. And both sides. This is the, and your people are addicted to their phones. So like, the information that you're getting almost all day long is very bleak and very dire.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:53Joe Rogan?

  It's, it's constant.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Cause that's what sells units. Like, fear is the best way to manipulate people.

• 48:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Forms of coercion.

• 49:00Joe Rogan?

  Engagement.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, engagement, man. And it's like, the phone replaced the world. Like, we're all staring into this fucking rectangular void. And it's like, I, I've become like a big gardener, man. Cause like, it connects me to shit that is real. Like, I've built my own compost. Like, I know my soil. Like, I've learned the different sections of my backyard that like get more sunlight and like get more water. And it's like, these were incredibly boring to me, probably 10 years ago, but now in this world that's so empty and so like, just devoid of anything palpable and real. Like, me being back there and watching my fucking dahlias grow is like just as valuable and nutritious to me as, it's anything that was ever on my phone.

• 49:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  And like, yeah, I'm not like learning or like, uh, I'm not like, you know, thinking I'm learning. And I'm not engaging with people, and I'm not getting the reward of like people being like, cool, nice garden, cause I'm not posting that shit. Like, I had a pumpkin that grew, like a clitoris in the back of, like, dude, you seen this pumpkin?

• 50:02Joe Rogan?

  You have a pumpkin?

• 50:03Speaker 01

  I had a trellis, and my pumpkins grew up this trellis. And I had a pumpkin that was dangling like, like the uvula in the back of your throat when I got home one time. And I just sat there and stared at this pumpkin for like two days.

• 50:15Joe Rogan?

  Aren't pumpkins supposed to be on the ground?

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Yeah, they are. There it is, baby. That's the sky pumpkin.

• 50:21Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  And of course, I had to like, put it online, you know, because that's what you do with anything good that happens to you.

• 50:27Joe Rogan?

  Cute little doggy.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. That's Danny. Sweet Danny.

• 50:32Joe Rogan?

  That's a nice pumpkin.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Right, but like that's magic. The squirrels got it after we carved it.

• 50:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, those cunts.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  That's alright.

• 50:39Joe Rogan?

  That's alright. You were carving it though, meaning you weren't gonna eat it anyway.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  No, I don't wanna eat a pumpkin.

• 50:44Joe Rogan?

  Pumpkin pie?

• 50:44Speaker 01

  I'm not a hippo.

• 50:46Joe Rogan?

  Pumpkin pie's delicious.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Pumpkin pie is good.

• 50:48Joe Rogan?

  You ever have roasted pumpkin?

• 50:49Speaker 01

  I've had roasted pumpkin.

• 50:50Joe Rogan?

  There's a delicious recipe, or it looks delicious at least, I should say, that I wanna try. I saw this guy, he cooked a chicken inside of a pumpkin. And what he did was, he took an actual pumpkin, he hollowed it out, and inside of it, he put a chicken. He put all these herbs and spices on the chicken, and they put a bunch of potatoes and tomatoes and carrots and a bunch of things inside with the pumpkin. And I feel like maybe he put chicken broth or chicken stock in there as well, and then put the whole thing inside of an oven. And so the pumpkin sort of collapsed, and then pulls it out after whatever amount of time, and opened it and pulled this chicken out. It was moist and delicious, and then plated it up. It looked fantastic. I wanna try it.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  That's chicken in a pumpkin.

• 51:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  You're saying eat the pumpkin.

• 51:37Joe Rogan?

  But he ate the pumpkin as well.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  I wanna eat the chicken.

• 51:38Joe Rogan?

  But pumpkin tastes good.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Pumpkin's okay. I like the seeds.

• 51:41Joe Rogan?

  No, but the pumpkin meat, if you cook it right, is good.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Look, man.

• 51:46Joe Rogan?

  Pumpkin, you don't like pumpkin pie?

• 51:47Speaker 01

  I do not.

• 51:48Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 51:48Speaker 01

  I like good pie. It's not a holdover from World War II.

• 51:52Joe Rogan?

  Pumpkin pie's a holdover?

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was like, hey, you know, the GIs are coming home.

• 51:56Joe Rogan?

  It's like my favorite.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Well, hey, man.

• 51:58Joe Rogan?

  Pumpkin pie with a little bit of whipped cream on it? Oh, it's so good.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  It's subjective. You're allowed to like pie. Yeah.

• 52:04Joe Rogan?

  I'm not, I'm angry at you that you like pumpkin pie.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  I get angry about subjectivity because people will be like, you're not funny, and it's like, well, it's subjective. Like, what are you talking about? Like, trying to apply objective rules and boundaries to stand-up is like the most asinine thing.

• 52:19Joe Rogan?

  It's silly.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 52:20Joe Rogan?

  It's silly. It's a wasted effort. Like, to be upset at people for not liking what you like or liking what you don't like is just, it's a waste of energy.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Quit thought policing.

• 52:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:30Joe Rogan?

  Well, people just don't want anyone to differ from them, and they don't wanna be on the wrong path. They don't wanna be incorrect. Especially if culture seems to be leaning in a certain direction and they're not. They don't wanna have to shift gears, so instead they attack it.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:43Joe Rogan?

  People have to learn to just accept, you know, like, I've seen people angry that Taylor Swift is the biggest musician in the world. Like, why? What do you care?

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:52Joe Rogan?

  Also, she's got some good songs, and if you don't think so, you probably haven't listened. Like, if you didn't know who she was, if she didn't have Taylor Swift attached to her, and you're like, "No Body, No Crime" is a fucking great song. It's a great song. And if it was just some indie artist who just wrote that, some unknown lady who wrote that song and performed, you'd be like, it's a really good song.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  I think it's just like a fun contrarian thing to be like, the popular thing is bad.

• 53:18Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Without any kind of like looking into it.

• 53:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's also people that like things when those things are not popular, and then when they become popular, oh, they fucking sold out. Like, okay.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  That's me.

• 53:29Joe Rogan?

  Ah-ha.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  That's a lot of people online.

• 53:31Joe Rogan?

  That's punk rock.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  I know, and like Kyle Kenein said it best. He's like, "I'm not here for purity tests from fair weather fans." And it's like, I'm not either. Like.

• 53:38Joe Rogan?

  That's a very good quote.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  He's the man, dude.

• 53:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's a very smart guy.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Him, Rory, like, I've been having a lot of conversations with people that are like really good, and I'm heartened. I'm like, I'm solid, but man, I gotta just like, I gotta find the shit about stand-up that I adored, that like made me devote my life to it, you know? And like fall back in love with it, because.

• 54:00Joe Rogan?

  Did you run into a period where you didn't? Like, are you struggling with that?

• 54:03Speaker 01

  I still love onstage. I love, I'm so grateful for like the meet and greet aspect. I love talking to the people. I love putting my armpits on their necks after the show and taking the pictures, you know?

• 54:15Joe Rogan?

  What don't you love?

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, forty-five weekends a year in an airport's tough, you know?

• 54:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Ticket counts are fucking brutal, you know, the emails, the promo stuff. Uh, trying, like, trying to be like a normal person while also constantly promoting yourself is so strange, like.

• 54:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  And it's not why I got into it. Like, if I could sell six hundred tickets a weekend in a city, like, that's all I want, and I can do that now. But then you get agents, and like, they're awesome, but they're also like, why don't we add a show? And it's like, because no one's gonna come to the four o'clock on Saturday.

• 54:49Joe Rogan?

  They just want money.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 54:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you have to ignore them. That's where a manager comes into play.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  I just got management, and they're fucking good, dude.

• 54:56Joe Rogan?

  That's good. If you got a good manager, a good manager, so for people that don't understand this, um, a manager looks out for your career, an agent works for you. So a manager is a partner. Like, I've had the same manager since I was an open mic'er.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 55:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. He found me in Boston.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:13Joe Rogan?

  In nineteen ninety-one? Ninety or ninety-one?

• 55:18Speaker 01

  So you've grown together.

• 55:19Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  As men, that's cool.

• 55:21Joe Rogan?

  We don't even have a contract. We don't have no legal paperwork.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:25Joe Rogan?

  We handle.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  I'm sure that'll wind up fine at the end. It's been good?

• 55:29Joe Rogan?

  It's been forever.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Don't get Dan Cook.

• 55:31Joe Rogan?

  Listen, it's not that I don't know where the money goes. It's not that. It's just that we don't, it's not like, we don't have to like re-sign some stupid thing every five years.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  You would trust.

• 55:41Joe Rogan?

  I'd rather cut my fingers off than fuck him over.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  That's how I feel about most parts of stand-up, yeah.

• 55:45Joe Rogan?

  But it's different in that the manager looks out for the whole of your career, you know? So there's like two people now. He brought in a woman, and she's been my manager now for, he's kinda semi-retired. She's been my manager for more than a decade. But it's a different thing than an agent, especially if you're with a big agency. So a big agency, there's like a lot of, like, I had a friend who got offered this deal. He has a pretty big podcast. He got offered this deal. And, uh, the deal involved being connected to some other people and being a part of a network. I said, "Don't do it. Do not do it."

• 56:24Joe Rogan?

  I go, he goes, "What's your thought?" I go, "Well, first of all, you're, right now, you're independent. Do you know how much money you would pay to be independent?" Like, if you got connected to this, and then all of a sudden you have a bunch of other people that you have to answer to, and they're saying, "Hey, you know, we could sell more advertising if you stop talking about Israel."

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:42Joe Rogan?

  Or, "We could sell more advertising if you just stopped using this word or that word, or bring up these subjects." Well, you know, the advertisements, you know, it's an issue. Like, as soon as that starts happening, you're, and right now, he doesn't have any of that. Right now, he's independent, and he can do whatever the fuck he wants. I go, "You're not poor, right? You're making good money, right? Like, keep doing that. Do not, let it grow. You're very talented. It'll keep growing." These people want to bleed you, and that's all they want. They want more. They want extra shows. They want you to be on the road every weekend. I have an agent. She's a lovely lady, but every time I talk to her, "When are you gonna do arenas again?" Like, it's just because they just want that money. They just want that money.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  And they're not the ones like going to the airport. They're not the ones missing their kids, like, missing the games and stuff.

• 57:31Joe Rogan?

  For me, it's like, when I moved here, I was like, okay, if I'm gonna take my kids and move them to another state, one of the things that I wanna do is be around a lot more often. And I can, and so if I can, I should.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:42Joe Rogan?

  And I don't, I don't wanna be on the road sixty fucking dates a year. It's just like, it's too much. I don't, I don't like it. I don't like doing it. It wears you out, and it doesn't seem as fun. I do like going to places, and I do like the fact that people wanna come, and I appreciate them very much. But I, having a club, having my own club has been the greatest fucking thing that I've ever done.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  It's such a solid move, because like now you're grounded, you have a community, and you have like this sick place you've built where, you know, you don't have to leave town, and all your friends come to town now.

• 58:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Like, I come to town, like, people are popping in every weekend, you know? It's a pretty righteous setup that you've created.

• 58:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, we got super fortunate where a bunch of lights had to turn green at the exact right moment for it to be able to take place. This wouldn't have taken place without COVID.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:32Joe Rogan?

  Without COVID and without the draconian lockdowns that California was implementing, and all the shit that they were doing, and the fact that other states weren't, and that Texas wasn't.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:41Joe Rogan?

  And the fact that there was already sort of a history of comedy in Austin. It wasn't a huge town for comedy, but it was a great town to visit and do comedy. And Ron White, the fact that Ron White had already moved here. He moved here in two thousand eighteen.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:53Joe Rogan?

  And so all those lights had to turn green at the right time. The Comedy Store had to be closed for a long time, for over a year and a half. And we just got all the best employees from the Comedy Store to move out to Texas. We got all the comics to move out. And then I got all that Spotify money, so I'm like, alright, let's do the right thing. Let's fucking make a club that like really helps the development of comedians and really kind of.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  I have a festival in Bentonville, Arkansas, to be my friend Ron, my buddy Raj.

• 59:24Joe Rogan?

  What's it called?

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Uh, the Big Diamond Comedy Festival. It's fun. People are like, why Bentonville?

• 59:29Joe Rogan?

  Why Big Diamond?

• 59:30Speaker 01

  It's hilarious. Raj was like, let's go with Big Diamond. I said, hey, man.

• 59:33Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  I go and I shake hands and kiss babies, you know? But we had Lucas McCrery headline, one of your door guys.

• 59:39Joe Rogan?

  Nice.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  And it's like, that's cool that now little weird Lucas, who I knew long ago, is now like, been given enough reps.

• 59:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  In a legitimate place where now I can trust them to be like, yeah, come do two shows.

• 59:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  On my festival. That feels good.

• 59:55Joe Rogan?

  It's not just our place, too. That one of the cool things about what's happened in Austin is because of the success of the mothership.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:01Joe Rogan?

  And then all these comics moving here, like 18 world-class comics moved to Austin. And so because of that, and then all these other new comics who wanted to have a career and saw that like, it's really difficult to get in New York. It's really difficult to get in in LA. And Austin is like this blossoming community. And so they all moved here and now there's seven clubs on one street, which is nuts. Within, you know, walking distance of the mothership, there's seven comedy clubs that at least a few nights a week have comedy. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Holidays can be stressful, especially if you're hosting. There's so much pressure to include everyone and to make sure they all have a good time. It could put a strain on you emotionally, financially, too.

• 1:00:45Joe Rogan?

  So maybe this year, keep things small. Ask someone else to host Thanksgiving. Or if something else is bothering you, find a solution through therapy with BetterHelp. They do all the work when it comes to finding the right therapist. If it's not a good match, it's easy to switch. You just have to focus on what you need to get through the holidays. Plus, BetterHelp is now in network with more than 125 health plans. With many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month.

• 1:01:26Joe Rogan?

  Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That's better H E L P dot com slash J R E.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  And like, the creek is.

• 1:01:38Joe Rogan?

  Amazing.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Like, awesome, you know?

• 1:01:40Joe Rogan?

  It's amazing.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Like, if it was just the creek.

• 1:01:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  That was here, like, Austin would still be right on.

• 1:01:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  But the fact that, like, you built like an actual circus, you know? And then we're like, clowns, move here. Like, that benefited every other, you know, P T Barnum-esque character.

• 1:01:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, it also, we set it up to develop comedy. Like, you have the cornerstone of the club, which is Kill Tony, right? That's like, very important because it gives people an opportunity, like, if you, you're on the road, you're grinding it out, and you know, you're barely getting by. But you're kinda funny. You got, you got something. It's just, you don't have an audience yet. And then you do one minute on Kill Tony, and you get a golden ticket, or you get that big joke book, and then they ask you to come back. And next, next thing you know, holy shit, you're selling out clubs on the weekend. People are coming to see you. You have fucking fans.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it creates a lot of work, too. Like, that's what I care about, is the fact that, like, you know, Tony has created so much opportunity. For so many people who deserve it, and some other people. But, you know, uh, he has a pretty good hit ratio, as far as who he decides to greenlight.

• 1:02:48Joe Rogan?

  You cannot have all hits.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:50Joe Rogan?

  It's impossible.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:51Joe Rogan?

  And it's not what you want, anyway. You want a little conflict. You want a little chaos. It's good. It's good for everybody.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  It's almost like the guy loves pro wrestling.

• 1:02:59Joe Rogan?

  Almost.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Has anyone ever figured that far? People are like, oh, he's evil. It's like, oh, or maybe you're getting worked, Mark.

• 1:03:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  You know? Anyway.

• 1:03:06Joe Rogan?

  He's not even remotely evil.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  I told Tony, he should put out that O2 Arena thing as a 30 for 30. Like, we should do a breakdown of like, why it went bad and like, do the talk back 10 years later.

• 1:03:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, what he should do is put it out like Andrew Dice Clay's.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:21Joe Rogan?

  The Day the Laughter Dies.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it could be very self-effacing and very funny and very humanizing, and I think that'd be a good idea.

• 1:03:29Joe Rogan?

  It wouldn't be a bad, well, it would probably get millions of views.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  The worst Kill Tony ever?

• 1:03:33Joe Rogan?

  Did he bring regulars to perform?

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, Kim was there, David was there, Ari was there.

• 1:03:40Joe Rogan?

  Kim Congdon?

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:41Joe Rogan?

  Uh, so David Lucas?

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:43Joe Rogan?

  Uh, Ari Matty?

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:44Joe Rogan?

  How did they do?

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  You know what was funny is like, you know how Ari is like a shark?

• 1:03:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Like, Ari seems like he might be devoid of like, human empathy sometimes, because he's so driven and so Eastern European. And he like, comes from like, blood that ate tubers, you know, and like.

• 1:03:58Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  War pelt.

• 1:03:59Joe Rogan?

  War.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, war. Like, his whole country has been defined by war.

• 1:04:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  So Ari is like, I was like, okay, Ari's gonna go up and save the show. Like, it's gonna be fine. We got Ari coming out. And Tony's like, we're gonna let Ari sit down and do panel. And I was like, please, please, because I'm just covered in arrows, you know? So, I was like Little John, and he was Robin Hood, and they're hiding behind me. So what was weird, though, is that Ari had all of the people who cared about him came from Estonia. So in the very front row, there was like 50 people who he'd grown up with, who I met the night previous and throughout the evening. And he was nervous, the first time I ever saw him, because these are people who he cares about. So he wasn't the explosive, you know, Ari Matty that we've come to expect. It was a guy who was like, performing in front of his mom and aunt, you know? In an arena. It's the first time they've seen him.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  So then Ari sits down, his set went fine, but he sits down to do panel, and he might have said three things. I kept being like, what do you think, Ari? And he was like, yes, I like it. It's good. What you said is funny.

• 1:05:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think in order to do Kill Tony, one of the things that you have to have is a very strong local comedy community. And I'm not sure London has enough numbers.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  I think London does, but I think it was more that, um, the biggest thing came.

• 1:05:17Joe Rogan?

  Does London have enough numbers?

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:05:20Joe Rogan?

  Does it?

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:20Joe Rogan?

  Is it comparable to a, a big US city?

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  I think London was, is probably as comparable to New York, Chicago. I mean, if you took.

• 1:05:28Joe Rogan?

  In terms of quality, like, numbers?

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:05:30Joe Rogan?

  Like, there's a thousand really good comics in London?

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Dude, I know a lot of really funny com- and the weird thing about London is like, if you're a Dublin comic or a Belfast comic, like, you'll go to London and do all, so it's like.

• 1:05:41Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Like, if you imagine that, like, Austin spread, like, 600 miles in every direction, and that included, like, you know, Glasgow and a bunch of other, like, big cities, I think if you want to do it that way. But yeah, I think London has a bunch of great comics.

• 1:05:56Joe Rogan?

  So why didn't they have better bucket pulls?

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  I think that, um, a bunch of people saw that the American spectacle was there. And they decided that this was like, oh, I'm gonna try stand-up for the first time ever. This'll be a laugh.

• 1:06:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  Then they get out there, and like, they're shattered. Literally, you saw people's like, entire identities rip in half. And then they had to do 50 more seconds.

• 1:06:16Joe Rogan?

  I've seen that at Madison Square Garden. I saw people do their very first set at Madison Square Garden, which is insane.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:23Joe Rogan?

  Literally insane.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Joe Rogan?

  An impossible task.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Oh, uh, I would not recommend it to anyone.

• 1:06:27Joe Rogan?

  And that person, perhaps, if that wasn't their first experience on stage, could have had a career in comedy.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:06:33Joe Rogan?

  But now, it's like, your first fight is against Mike Tyson when he's 20.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:06:37Joe Rogan?

  And you just get your brains punched in. You're like, well, I guess I'm gonna get a job.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  I'm going back to school. Yeah.

• 1:06:46Joe Rogan?

  Back to Jiffy Lube.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  But like, Kim did a great job. Uh, David, you know, closed the show. Like, it was, it was, everyone did the best they could in that situation. And I would love to see it, like, with a little bit of gloss on it.

• 1:06:58Joe Rogan?

  16,000 drunk people that are screaming shit out is hard to wrangle.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  Coked up, too.

• 1:07:04Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Very coked up.

• 1:07:05Joe Rogan?

  Nice.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Dude, there was just random fistfights happening. I think there was, literally, I think there was a stabbing at that show, dude.

• 1:07:11Joe Rogan?

  I like how he did that.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I've been taking improv classes, you know?

• 1:07:15Joe Rogan?

  He did motion stabbing.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But yeah, there was like a stabbing. I mean, you should, I would, we should just have like Red Van. I wanna, we should sit down and do that 30 for 30 style doc.

• 1:07:26Joe Rogan?

  Like a Mystery Science Theater, watching it?

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, that would be great, dude.

• 1:07:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like, everybody take bong hits and sit on a couch.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:33Joe Rogan?

  And watch it.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  Uh-huh, I mean, that's the only way I'd wanna watch it, is very stoned, like, disassociated high.

• 1:07:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God. Uh, yeah, he told me it was horrible, but he didn't give me details. He didn't wanna talk about it.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:47Joe Rogan?

  It was like, he went somewhere and they stole his car and lit it on fire, and he barely got out of there alive.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  I mean, it was kinda like that thing when they're like, hey, Ken Kesey, did you watch, uh, Cuckoo's Nest movie? And he was like, well, if the Hells Angels said they were gonna come gang rape your daughter on the front lawn, would you go out and watch it? I feel like that's probably how he feels about this, because it was not within his control, like, how bad it happened. Like, he's very competent. Red Van's very competent. I'm competent. Like, it wasn't like we couldn't do the job. It was more like, a bunch of piranhas got thrown in our hot tub, and we were just like, ah, being eaten alive. It sucked.

• 1:08:24Joe Rogan?

  He definitely should release it.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  I think that, um, I think it's an opportunity to be a bit like, hey, you know, they're not all great. They're not all slam dunks.

• 1:08:33Joe Rogan?

  Maybe you will now. Maybe you should give that one to Netflix.

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  Tony, get me on Netflix, buddy. Get me on there.

• 1:08:41Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a tough show. I mean, it's a great show, but it's like, taking it on the road like that.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  I love doing it.

• 1:08:49Joe Rogan?

  In that circumstances. I wonder, have they've done it in many other countries? Have they done it in, in England more than once, or is it just that one time?

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  I think they did it on a smaller scale, maybe, in London, but.

• 1:09:01Joe Rogan?

  Maybe that's more manageable, you know?

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:05Joe Rogan?

  Like, what is Royal Albert Hall? How many is that?

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  I don't know. 6,000? I did it with Tim. I gotta sign the book underneath the guy from The Who. Like, they have like the Queens Archive for everyone who's ever performed there and you get to write your name in it.

• 1:09:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh, man.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  And I was like right under daltrey. That was pretty sick, yeah.

• 1:09:21Joe Rogan?

  That's pretty sick.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  I know. And it's so silly that like I'm a filthy nightclub comic, but yet I'm in the Queens Archive forever. Like, stand-up rules. It's the best. It is the best. It's just that, uh, a lot of stuff that surrounds it just sucks.

• 1:09:35Joe Rogan?

  So like, what is the stuff that surrounds it that's really like stealing your joy other than the travel part?

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  I mean, I got into this, uh, to be a clown and to, uh, entertain people and I'm really good at, uh, I mean, I fucking sell chicken tenders and beers, you know? Like, I don't aspire to be elevated in any way. I don't like the fact that people are like, these are the modern philosophers. It's like, no, dude. Like, I don't believe that at all. I get up there and I try and make people not think for 60 seconds and do this kind of alchemy. Cause like, you can't, you can't study laughter. You can't study why something's funny.

• 1:10:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  What we do, call it a bar trick, but it is magic. Like, anyone out there, try and get up on stage for 60 minutes and make a bunch of people who work at different places and think different ways, who are not used to being in a room, being quiet. Try and make them feel like they spent $35 and it wasn't wasted. That's what I get off on. I love being really good at stand-up. I love doing the job. I love leaving it all in the field. But I don't wanna fucking be a cultural commentator, you know?

• 1:10:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, you don't have to.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  I don't wanna be a pundit. It's what's expected of us now.

• 1:10:44Joe Rogan?

  No, by who?

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Dude, everyone wants people, comics to weigh in.

• 1:10:48Joe Rogan?

  Says who?

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  I think that if you look at, uh, most-

• 1:10:51Joe Rogan?

  Do you think David Tell's weighing in on things?

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  No, and that's why he's the best.

• 1:10:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  He's the greatest, but he doesn't have to. And I don't have to either.

• 1:10:57Joe Rogan?

  But you think you have to?

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  I don't think I do, but people expect it of me.

• 1:11:00Joe Rogan?

  Who? Who are these people?

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  Uh, there's people who listen to my podcast, Shelby Behemoth.

• 1:11:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but you can weigh in on things as a podcaster. And this is like, we were, we were having this discussion about Hicks last night, a couple nights ago. And, uh, someone said, "I, I wish he wasn't so, like, he's, he's like, some of his stuff is not funny." He's like patronizing. And I said, "What, well, here's the thing." He didn't have podcasts back then. If Hicks had a podcast, he'd probably have like really brilliant discussions with people and make interesting points. And then he could just dedicate his stage time to just being funny. So he was funny a lot, but then there was also like important points that he felt like he had to get out.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:11:45Joe Rogan?

  That he did in the genre of stand-up comedy that weren't necessarily funny.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  So he didn't have a proper outlet for these deeper thoughts, which is what I have with my books and stuff. I can like put it in there.

• 1:11:56Joe Rogan?

  And with your podcast. So that, that's where I think we're very fortunate. And that you don't have to be a cultural commentator in your comedy. All you have to do is be funny. Like, some of my favorite comics, like Mitch Hedberg or- There's a lot of comics that are just funny. Steven Wright, just funny. There's nothing- It's just, like, you don't have to be a cultural commentator. And the idea that there's less value to it because it doesn't fit into what X person wants from stand-up comedy. Well, that's silly. That's silly. But there's a lot of people that if you listen to them, they wanna force you to do what they want you to do. They want to pressure you. Because people like to change people.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  They do.

• 1:12:36Joe Rogan?

  They like to do that.

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  And group think is a very powerful tool.

• 1:12:39Joe Rogan?

  Yes. They like to scold. They like to tell people what they want from them and tell them what to do and, you know, you know. Silence is not an option. Like, okay, of course it's an option. Silence is always an option.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  And also, like, should you, if anyone goes to a comedy show and they're hoping for the comedian to signal that they have the same allegiances to the way that they think.

• 1:13:02Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  Don't come to my shows. Come to my shows to get a joke every 12 seconds. Like, I, Tell's the best to ever do it, in my opinion. He's the best nightclub comic. He has a joke every 15. I am having 22-year-olds in the crowd now and I should have a fucking t-shirt cannon and keys to shake. Cause like, my act has gotten so much more joke-dense because of the youth and their expectations.

• 1:13:25Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  But like, I, I, I really think of the fact, like, I like to say that I'm like R.C. Cola. Like, I make products, you can consume them. I don't think anyone should be political in comedy ever. Dude, Hicks is the man. But that shit when he like came out in London, dressed like the Undertaker and like takes his jacket off and puts it on, like, that's not my favorite Hicks. My favorite Hicks is when he was young and silly.

• 1:13:48Joe Rogan?

  I think the problem with that one was, first of all, there was a lot of weight on him to be this cultural philosopher, this commentator. But also, one show, filming it.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:13:58Joe Rogan?

  You can't, there's too much pressure. It's too much pressure. One show, filming one show for a special is a lot of pressure.

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  Mm-huh.

• 1:14:06Joe Rogan?

  And you can't, it's hard to be loose. You know, it's very hard to be loose.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  But I don't like that so many people think that that's Bill Hicks.

• 1:14:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, I saw him live. I got a chance to see him live multiple times.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  In a nightclub?

• 1:14:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  How big was the room?

• 1:14:22Joe Rogan?

  Small clubs. Uh, 150. I saw murder in front of 150 at the Comedy Connection in Boston. The, the old Comedy Connection, not the one in Faneuil Hall, the little tiny one that was downstairs, a short, it was like really short ceilings, like very low ceilings.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Like Comedy Works downtown.

• 1:14:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like Little Boy at the, at the club, at the mothership. Very low ceilings, tight room, and he murdered. And then I saw Bomb at Nick's Comedy Stop. I saw, I saw him multiple times. And, uh, only in nightclub settings. Cause I think that's really all he did, except when he did England. When he was in England, the thing is, he went to England and he became like this thing.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:00Joe Rogan?

  And then you have a little bit of that sort of audience capture thing that goes on. You know, where they, they expect something of you. They expect philosophy. They expect this part of- And it is kind of interesting. Like, I was dating this girl at the time, it was in 1994, and I, she was very smart. And, uh, I watched it with her and she goes, "He's very interesting, but he's not funny." That's what she said.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:25Joe Rogan?

  And I was like, "Yeah, right." Like, I'm not laughing either, but I really like it. But I know as a comic, and I had not done any specials, I'd done a couple TV spots by then. I'd done like MTV and a few other things, but they're like short 10-minute things. It's hard when that camera's on, like, ready, go, and you have to be loose like a Friday night second show or Saturday night second show, where it's like, you're just having fun, you're in the zone and you're flowing. It's very hard to do. It's very hard to do. You know, and I thought about, and it's scary. And that's one of the reasons why, like, my last special, I decided to do live. Cause I wanted to feel that. I wanted, I wanted to be scared.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:05Joe Rogan?

  I wanted to be scared and I wanted to do something for like millions of people. But I structured it very differently. I, I structured it where like, it was a little safer. Like, I knew these jokes were gonna kill. I didn't deviate from the path at all. It wasn't fucking around like it would be like a Saturday night at the mothership.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:24Joe Rogan?

  And it was different. But I did it because it was nerve-wracking, cause it scared me. So, cause it's worse than one show. Cause it's one show that you can't edit.

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:34Joe Rogan?

  And one show that millions of people are gonna see live and a lot of haters.

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:38Joe Rogan?

  So it's like, I, I, that's why I did it. I was like, let's do, let's, let's be scared. This episode is brought to you by Noco. You're miles from home, you turn the key, nothing. Dead battery. Normally, that means finding another car, someone willing to give you a jump, and dealing with old jumper cables. But what if you didn't need any of that? Keep a Noco portable jump starter in your glove box and jump-start your car yourself. No cables, no second vehicle, no waiting for help. It also works as a power bank and has a built-in LED flashlight. Noco, the end of jumper cables. Use code ROGEN10 for 10% off select jump starters at N-O dot C-O.

• 1:17:22Joe Rogan?

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• 1:18:04Joe Rogan?

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• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  Well, it's probably novelty, right? Like, I love novelty.

• 1:18:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  I value it so much. So the fact that that scared you?

• 1:18:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  Cause like, we've all been, like, if you, I've been doing it longer than I haven't. I've been doing stand-up 21 years.

• 1:18:30Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  And there are shows now where I'm like bored. You're doing your act, you're killing, they're laughing, but you're like, you ever play that game Cities Skylines? You play it, right, Jamie?

• 1:18:41Joe Rogan?

  I told you, yeah. Way too much.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  It's a city building game.

• 1:18:44Joe Rogan?

  Way too much.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  And you have to like, put in the pipes to move the water along. Jamie, I've been on stage, dude. Like, sold out, killing. And I'm thinking of grid patterns in my head while I'm on stage.

• 1:18:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  I couldn't be less connected to the task. It's like a robot.

• 1:18:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, then you're doing too many shows.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, no, I've done way too many shows.

• 1:19:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  But like, that's the novelty you're talking about, is like, doing that thing that's scary is very valuable. And not enough people do shit that's scary because they don't want to look like frauds.

• 1:19:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's very important when you're successful to be under pressure, to do things that are hard and scary. It's very, I'm too successful. I have to do scary things. So I do scary things all the time. I do things that give me a lot of pressure. That's what I like.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:28Joe Rogan?

  It's one of the reasons why I like bow hunting. It's, it's a lot of pressure. It's very difficult to do, and it's a lot of pressure. And the, those elk don't give a fuck that you have the number one podcast in the world.

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:39Joe Rogan?

  Or that you sell out arenas. They don't give a, it doesn't give a shit.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you have five Netflix specials. It doesn't give a fuck.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:45Joe Rogan?

  It's just, it's just real. It's just pressure. So I, I like things that give me pressure. Like, I, hard workouts, different things that I do, I do specifically to keep my mind straight.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:56Joe Rogan?

  Because otherwise, you'll get overwhelmed by success. And it'll fuck with you, and it'll fuck with your perspective. It's also, one of the keys, for me at least, is I pay very little attention to what other people say about me. I think it's very important.

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:11Joe Rogan?

  I'm peripherally aware of it, I'm peripherally aware of criticism and compliments, and it's all nice and good, and that's nice. And when people come up to me and they say something to me that's really nice, it's very cool. But I don't take it in. I don't like, oh, wow, that's me now. No, never. I, I just, I just keep on trucking. And I, I am my worst critic, so I am in my own head all the time, looking at my own stuff. And that's how I approach it. So I think about it that way, that I don't, I, you just, you just have to stay on the path. Stay on the path. And it's a constant path. It's like, my set that I'm doing right now, I think is, I mean, I hate saying this because I say this a lot, like, but I think it's the best set I've ever done.

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:54Joe Rogan?

  And I think that's the goal. The goal is to have the material, the, the material that you're proud of, that you think is, this is, and it's not done. Like, it's not ready to be filmed, so I'm working on it, and I'm tweaking it, and I'm adding to it. And I'll have shows where I'll do it one way, I'm like, oh, that way is no good. I gotta redo it. So I listen to recordings and go back over it, and then try to dissect it, and then maybe put it on the shelf for a couple of months. And then try this new thing, and try to figure out, like, maybe there's, uh, maybe that bit is just gonna be an orphan. I have a whole folder on my computer of orphans.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Joe Rogan?

  And there are bits that never made it on the specials, and they're just, like, who knows? They, it killed, but it didn't fit, and so find a new spot. And it's just this constant process. And so I put my head in that.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:36Joe Rogan?

  I don't put my head in what other people think.

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:38Joe Rogan?

  I don't put my head into what other people want. I don't put my head into what other people expect. I just try to do my best.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:44Joe Rogan?

  And that's it.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  I mean, dude, yeah, because like, I'm new to any kind of like, people having anything to say about me, or knowing I exist, you know? Like, it's relatively very new. And I decided early on with this book, it was like, I can't, if, if people say, the book is really good, which a lot of people have, I love the book. That can't be any more valuable than when people say, I hate the book, you suck as a writer. You can't allow the strangers to give you good stuff.

• 1:22:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  And take nutrition from that good stuff if you're going to say, the people who don't like me are insane.

• 1:22:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Like, you can't value either one of them, because then you're trying to equivocate, and you're making bad art.

• 1:22:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  And like, the expectation of the viewer was not involved in the production of art for a long time.

• 1:22:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Until very recently, and, uh...

• 1:22:36Joe Rogan?

  It's unhealthy.

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  It's not good. It's not good for the people who want good art either.

• 1:22:41Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  And the people who write to you and say like, you know, you're a sellout, or whatever, like, they think they're smarter than the people who don't write to you. You know?

• 1:22:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  And it's like, the people who just watch the thing and say, this was funny, and then go back to their lives, those are the people who I want to value the opinion of.

• 1:22:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  But I never talk to them, because they're not insane.

• 1:23:01Joe Rogan?

  And the people that are hating, and the people, I get it. Look, I would do the same.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 1:23:04Joe Rogan?

  If I was in your, this is the thing that we all have to understand. If I lived your life, I would be you. If you lived my life, you would be me.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:12Joe Rogan?

  And I think very few people are inherently good or evil.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 1:23:16Joe Rogan?

  Or dumb, well, there's, there's dumb people. Unfortunately, there's like, biological limitations to intelligence. They're real. They're, it's real. Like, you know, you talk to some people, and they're just, they just don't get it.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  They had lead paint when they were a kid or something? Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:29Joe Rogan?

  Bunch of...

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  Their mom never talked to them, so they grew up non-verbal?

• 1:23:32Joe Rogan?

  Bad genes, man.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:23:33Joe Rogan?

  You know, there's bad genes.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:23:35Joe Rogan?

  You know, I've met kids that are the children of brilliant people, and they are just inherently brilliant. Like, there's, there's a thing that's passed down, the synapses fire more swiftly, their memory is better.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:23:46Joe Rogan?

  It's real. I get it. So it's like, I don't take it personally, but you can't live by compliments either. Like, that's why I tell comics, don't read comments.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  Can't.

• 1:23:56Joe Rogan?

  Don't get in there, even the good stuff is bad for you. It feels like it's good for you, like, yeah, I'm the man, yeah, you like me? Right, he's always fucking out there, fucking doing this thing. Yeah, yeah, it's me.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:24:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you'll be thinking about compliments rather than what you're doing. All of it steals from your focus.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:13Joe Rogan?

  All of it.

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  Uh-huh.

• 1:24:14Joe Rogan?

  All of it steals from whatever creative energy, whatever life energy, observational energy that you have, to apply to all aspects of your life. I always try to tell comics, I've said this before, I apologize if people have heard it. I try to, to say this to as many people as possible, because I think it's an important way to phrase it, and to structure it in your head. Think of your attention as units. You have 100 units, 100 is a good number. If you're spending 30 units, paying attention to people that hate you, or paying attention to people that love you, or paying attention to anything, you just stole 30 units from your 100. Now you only have 70 to apply to the things that you love.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  And those, there's 50 of those 70 are spent on your phone.

• 1:24:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? So you actually have 20 units left. I think of it as pounds of flesh, bro. Because like, uh, I'll be out there, and it's like, I keep, I love to give myself to the people. Like, I love the act of stand-up. Like, I did, you know, whatever you want to say, I don't think it's art, but it could be service, you know? Like, it's nice to make people laugh. Sucks they have to pay for it, sucks it's commodified, but like, so, when I go out and do the meet and greet, and I'm exhausted, and I've already done, if I've... It's like, how much can I give away of me until there's none of me left? And then it's just like this shell that people come and look at, and like, they put the coin in the mouth, and I say the funny thing, and I'm like, robotic at the meet and greet and all that shit.

• 1:25:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  I can't, I can't keep giving all this of me away and expect for that thing that I was to still remain.

• 1:25:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, then there's also the problem, like, there was an issue, uh, especially in the 90s, where comics would do all these material, all this material about travel.

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:59Joe Rogan?

  About airplane travel. Why? Because that was their life.

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:02Joe Rogan?

  Because that was, they were thinking about that all the time, because that was their experience.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:05Joe Rogan?

  You have to have experiences. You have to do things other than the thing that you do, just to have things to talk about. Just as a part of your job, have experiences and have a part of your life that is, that has nothing to do with your travel. And if you're traveling constantly, doing stand-up constantly, your life experiences are hotel, dinner, um, hanging with your friends, show, show, show, show, show.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:33Joe Rogan?

  And there's not enough coming in. There's too much coming out, and then you go dry.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:38Joe Rogan?

  And then when you go dry, you start playing games in your head while you're on stage.

• 1:26:41Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:41Joe Rogan?

  And that's just a sign that you... And I've experienced that a lot when I was on the road most of my life. You know, when I was, when I was doing a lot of road shows, it was like, you get to a point where you don't connect with what you're saying anymore.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:56Joe Rogan?

  And I didn't have the luxury to step away.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, I didn't either.

• 1:26:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  Like, that's, and hopefully now with like, writing, like, this got optioned, and I'm gonna write the screenplay, like...

• 1:27:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, just the writing alone, just the experience of expanding your perceptions, and expanding your thoughts, and your, just your, just your overall creative energy into something completely different.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:19Joe Rogan?

  Is hugely beneficial. It has to be. Because I was reading, like, the way you structure this book, the, the, the, the descriptors, the way, it's very unusual. It's like, you don't write like anybody else that I know of. Like, it's really uniquely you, and it's really good. And it's...

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.

• 1:27:35Joe Rogan?

  And it's, um, it's rewarding. It's like, very inspiring. It's really, really good, man.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  Thank you, Joe. I'm very proud of it.

• 1:27:42Joe Rogan?

  I'm on chapter 10, I haven't finished it, but I'm, I'm pretty deep into it.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  Dude, part three is just insane.

• 1:27:47Joe Rogan?

  I can't wait, man. It's already fucking insane. It's really good, man. And it's, like I said, it's, it's rewarding, because it's good and an, like, it takes these unexpected turns, like, I, one of the things that is, it sucks when you're reading something and you know what's coming.

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:02Joe Rogan?

  And...

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  I hate that.

• 1:28:03Joe Rogan?

  And sometimes you think you know what's coming, and then they trick you, and that's fun.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:28:06Joe Rogan?

  But this isn't that at all. I don't know what the fuck is going on. Like, it's, it's really, it's really good. And it's, it's very uniquely you, and it's very vulnerable.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:18Joe Rogan?

  It's like, there's a lot going on there, man. It's really...

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  I wanted it to be beautiful. I love prose, I love lyricism, I love literature.

• 1:28:24Joe Rogan?

  I can tell.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:25Joe Rogan?

  It, it is a love letter to prose.

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.

• 1:28:28Joe Rogan?

  It's really great.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  Well, that thing you said about how like, comics only wrote about airplane food.

• 1:28:32Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  My issue with, uh, American literature, which still won't let me in, despite this being an immediate national bestseller, no book coverage from your conventional, you know, the outlets that I, I, I list, I read the Paris Review. Like, I get the Times, uh, supplement. Like, I love all these literary things, and they still won't talk to me.

• 1:28:52Joe Rogan?

  Who cares?

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  I do, because like, I...

• 1:28:54Joe Rogan?

  I can't, I understand.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  I want to get in there, I want to go to these talks and stuff.

• 1:28:58Joe Rogan?

  Don't, don't, don't, don't.

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  But, the American MFA situation, the Master in Fine Arts, all these like, writing programs, all these kids go to these writing programs, and instead of like, being 19 and smoking something that turns out isn't opium, you know? Uh, and getting their heart broken, and, you know, living outside or being desperate, instead they go to these colleges that are like, you know, very expensive institutions, that only allow certain types of people in. And they learn how to write books from people who also went to these institutions. And those books are then sent off to publishing houses that are housed by people who went to these institutions.

• 1:29:37Speaker 01

  And the books that come out are completely devoid of any kind of real human experience, because these kids have lived in these like, ivory towers of knowledge, and they haven't been out getting their teeth busted by reality. So every book that comes out is so fucking boring, but it has to be greenlit from the top, because if this isn't good or valuable as literature, then the whole... The whole house of cards crumbles. Then why do you go to the MFA programs anymore? The best literature now, best fiction comes out of Japan. It comes out of France. It comes out of-

• 1:30:08Joe Rogan?

  Japan, really?

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  Oh dude, Japanese fiction is fucked. There's all these books about like women who eat each other.

• 1:30:14Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, yeah. Butter is an insane novel.

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  Convenience store girl or dude. Japanese fiction is still publishing stuff that used to be okay to write about. Cause it was weird and it was far out, but it's still fiction. And now every fucking contemporary novel that comes out in America is about like someone who grew up rich and feels bad about it, you know? And it's like so boring. And then the stuff they do champion, like A Little Life is the most ridiculous, hyperbolic bullshit that's never happened to anyone. But since these people never lived and they were all at school, they don't know what the average American is like doing.

• 1:30:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  So it's just everyone's out of touch and everyone's jerking each other off. And it's like this dick suck or a boros of shit. And then I try to write a book for like, you know, dudes to read. And like, all they talk about is like, who's gonna save male reading? No males are reading. And then it's like, I'm desperately out here being like, please, me. I want people to read.

• 1:31:14Joe Rogan?

  That is a real topic of discussion.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  Dude, all of-

• 1:31:17Joe Rogan?

  I'm so glad I don't know about any of this.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, this is like my hobby.

• 1:31:21Joe Rogan?

  The stuff that I read, other than your book and like that stuff that I actually get into, that's fiction is like, it's all male stuff. Like I'm really into the Gray Man series.

• 1:31:31Speaker 01

  What's the Gray Man series?

• 1:31:32Joe Rogan?

  You don't know, oh my god.

• 1:31:36Joe Rogan?

  The Gray Man is, they made it into a movie, but the movie sucked. It was like a Netflix movie, but it's all about an assassin.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Sick.

• 1:31:43Joe Rogan?

  And you would enjoy it. Read Gray Man 1, Mark Graney. It's, he's been on the podcast before. It's, it's all about this guy who was raised by his father, who his father was this guy who ran like military training programs. So he learned how to become like a shooter and learned how to be like very good at firearms when he was very young. And then got sent to jail for, he was working security and killed some drug dealers.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 1:32:16Joe Rogan?

  And got sent to jail and then wound up being recruited by the CIA to be an off-books assassin.

• 1:32:21Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:32:21Joe Rogan?

  It's fucking crazy.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  I love that shit.

• 1:32:23Joe Rogan?

  It's wild.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:24Joe Rogan?

  It's wild stuff. And, I mean, he's got like, I don't know, how many books has he have? How many have, like 15?

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 1:32:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he turns them out. He bangs one out every year.

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:34Joe Rogan?

  And they're really good. They're very engrossing.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:32:37Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's so many like great books about sick shit, but like they don't, they don't know how to like tell you that these books exist. Like my buddy, Jordan Harper, like writes these insane books about like Hollywood pedophile networks and like white supremacist biker gangs. And they're bad to the bone. And I like meet the guy and I'm a dork and I'm like, hey, man, I really big fan since the short stories, you know? And he's like, oh, you have that book? And I was like, yeah, it was hard to find. And he's like, yeah, they only published a thousand. It's weird that you have it. And I was like, well, gee whiz, mister. And it's like, no one's having these conversations anymore. Like dudes don't talk about books. Like I felt when I wrote this, I feel like I'm, I was, I was like pregnant with this baby and I loved the baby and I was so proud of that I got pregnant and that I fed it

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  all the right vitamins. But then when it's time to give birth to it, it's a baby that society at large thinks is a boring abomination and no one gives a shit about this baby, AKA literature.

• 1:33:34Joe Rogan?

  Wait, wait, wait, no. I don't, I think you're wrong. I think you're just like, you're, you're dealing with this like very small insulated group of people that have this perspective.

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  That's readers though. There aren't a lot of readers of literature anymore.

• 1:33:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but if people find out about a good book, they will read it.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  But that's hard to get them to find out.

• 1:33:53Joe Rogan?

  That's why you're on here.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  Well, I know, I know.

• 1:33:55Joe Rogan?

  This is the thing. It's like, they, they've done a really shitty job in connecting to men. That's why. It's not just that men aren't interested in reading. If you tell them about a great, like Jack Carr, do you know who he is?

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Uh, no.

• 1:34:07Joe Rogan?

  Former Navy SEAL, wrote the book, The Terminalist, that they turned into a show on Netflix, another fucking great book. The Terminalist is a fucking great book. And the first one is about a bunch of people that he has to kill. After he gets out, he finds, there's a lot of corruption, government corruption, but it's really well-written.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:26Joe Rogan?

  It's fun and it's exciting.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  I like fun in a book.

• 1:34:29Joe Rogan?

  Hyper-violent.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:31Joe Rogan?

  It's really good.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:34:32Joe Rogan?

  And his books sell really well. I mean, like they, they opted into an Amazon series. It's on Amazon Prime. Chris Pratt stars in it. You don't know about it?

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  No, that's the thing. It's like, I'm an author.

• 1:34:44Joe Rogan?

  You're insulated. The fact that you don't know who Jack Carr is is crazy.

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  Well, I'm sure my algorithm hasn't showed me Jack Carr.

• 1:34:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's a problem.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Have you ever read Rogue Mail?

• 1:34:53Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Dude, Rogue Mail is a book that was forgotten.

• 1:34:56Joe Rogan?

  Is M A I L or L E?

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  M A L E. And it's about a guy who's trying to assassinate Hitler on Hitler's compound. But it's this dude who thinks he's like this big gnarly hero, right? And he's like, I'm the one who's gonna end the war. So he like gets into the back of Hitler's compound and it's just him and his head like talking about how brave he is. And I don't want to ruin the ending, but I think you'd love that book, dude.

• 1:35:21Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, Rogue Mail is a heater.

• 1:35:22Joe Rogan?

  Okay, a heater.

• 1:35:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. And Angels, if anyone out there is listening and they want to read a really good book, Angels by Dennis Johnson is about a bank robbery gone awry. And it might be the most beautiful, ugly, bleak thing, and it's my favorite book ever.

• 1:35:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, maybe with this obsession with social media and then people realizing that it's very bad for you, we can start a trend of people opting out of just spending all their time doom scrolling on their fucking phone and actually getting into really cool, interesting, creative things.

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  This is so much more nutritious than anything on your phone. And I mean, any book.

• 1:35:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  You could read a book about like prairie medicine and still be like so much better off than just looking at your phone and getting mad.

• 1:36:04Joe Rogan?

  Just read No Country For Old Men.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:36:06Joe Rogan?

  Get someone into Cormac McCarthy. Get someone into, you know, Blood Meridian or some of the really dark-

• 1:36:12Speaker 01

  Don't start with Blood Meridian, but yeah.

• 1:36:14Joe Rogan?

  Start with No Country For Old Men and then get a feeling of how Cormac writes. And then finish up when you're done with all of his work and then finish up with Blood Meridian.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  Which is the best book we've produced as Americans.

• 1:36:26Joe Rogan?

  Supposedly they're gonna try to turn into a film. Aren't they in the middle of that? They've like, they've aborted that like five different times over the course of history.

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  I think Brad Pitt had the rights for a while and then like-

• 1:36:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, like someone had him for a while and then they get loose.

• 1:36:41Joe Rogan?

  It's like you hear about someone taking on that task, you go, ooh, good luck. Good luck trying to make that.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  Has to be a cartoon, Joe.

• 1:36:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  The only way to do it is you do a big cartoon. It's like six hours long. And then you can show actually, you know, the indigenous scalpers smashing babies' heads against the rocks. Cause you can't show that in a movie, I don't think.

• 1:37:02Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  You ever seen Bone Tomahawk?

• 1:37:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  So like that movie's cool, but that violence at that scale does look cartoonish. So I think that in a cartoon, you can have the judge and the judge can be 12 feet tall sometimes and other times he can be the shape of a boulder and he can be amorphous and like-

• 1:37:21Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:03Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't, you can't do it live action, I don't think.

• 1:38:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, maybe it should just be a book.

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:01Joe Rogan?

  You know, there's that thought, too, that some books are so good that they have to exist only in literary form.

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  Moby Dick.

• 1:39:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, they have to exist only in where your imagination fills in the blanks.

• 1:39:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:13Joe Rogan?

  Which is really part of the majesty of books. Part of the joy of it is the fact that it excites your brain to create these images in your mind that correspond with the words on the page.

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  But I worry that like, people aren't reading anymore and it's like atrophying, you know?

• 1:39:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they could build it back.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:32Joe Rogan?

  It's like a lot of things that people didn't do before, like, like when I was talking about bow hunting. Hunting has gone, gone, the activity of hunting went way up during the pandemic. And it's because people realize like, hey, maybe this is something I should learn how to do if there's no fucking food.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 1:39:48Joe Rogan?

  You know, like, it'd be a good thing to know how to be able to shoot a rifle and kill a pig and, and, you know, have food for my family.

• 1:39:55Speaker 01

  That's when we got our gun.

• 1:39:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:39:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you start thinking.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Us two bleeding heart leftists, we got guns, you know?

• 1:40:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, oh, I had a lot of bleeding heart leftists that were asking me if they could borrow one of my guns.

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  Borrow a gun?

• 1:40:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  That's a federal crime, right?

• 1:40:09Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're like, can you sand off the cereal buttermilk?

• 1:40:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, what's interesting is in Texas, it's not a crime. So in Texas, I could actually give you a gun.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:40:16Joe Rogan?

  Like, I could say, here, this is a gift, and I can just give you a pistol.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  You should do that for every guest.

• 1:40:21Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 1:40:21Speaker 01

  Send them out of here.

• 1:40:22Joe Rogan?

  Some guys do, like, I think, who, Sean, Sean Ryan used to do that. He used to give people a pistol. He used to give people a Sig, like, at the beginning of every podcast.

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:35Joe Rogan?

  I think he even gave one to Gavin Newsom.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  He's like, use it, use it.

• 1:40:39Joe Rogan?

  I think it was like a gift, you know, like some sort of a promotional deal with his, his, his, his, I don't know how he did it.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:51Joe Rogan?

  I mean, you'd have to, like, fill out a lot of paperwork and stuff like that, too. But in Texas, if a person's a Texas resident and you live in Texas, I'm 99% sure that you could just give them a gun.

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:41:03Joe Rogan?

  That's Sean Ryan, former Navy SEAL CIA contractor, host Sean Ryan Show. Well documented examples, California Governor Gavin Newsom, Ryan gave a Sig Sauer handgun during a 2025 appearance. Yeah.

• 1:41:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:41:16Joe Rogan?

  Newsom still hadn't brought it home because of California requirements. He's the governor! Also had to pay the portion of its value above the state's gift limit for public officials. Yeah, I wonder if that applied to the houses he got.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  He didn't seem to mind breaking all the rules during those soirees they were throwing. Remember those fancy parties he was having?

• 1:41:36Joe Rogan?

  The, uh, French Laundry one, yeah, where he had no mask on indoors, yeah.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  Do you think that your love of hunting and like, uh, like that fear for the live special, those kind of things make you present?

• 1:41:48Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  Like, you're completely alive while you're doing them and you're not distracted?

• 1:41:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  Is that what you think, like, draws you to these things?

• 1:41:55Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:41:56Joe Rogan?

  I think those are very important, but particularly very important for famous people. For famous wealthy people, like, and I don't recommend this to everybody, I'm just saying for me, maybe I should just say me. Because you can get soft. It's real easy to get insulated and to, uh, you know, you have a bunch of yes people around you, people kissing your ass. I have like, I have like a hundred employees or something like that.

• 1:42:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:19Joe Rogan?

  Like, you could lose your fucking mind.

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:21Joe Rogan?

  You could lose your mind.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:42:22Joe Rogan?

  So you, you have to be in charge of maintaining your mind. And I think one of the things is doing things that absolutely require your focus and are hard to do.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:32Joe Rogan?

  Like, objectively, like, unequivocally hard to do. Like, there's no easy way to climb up a mountain and shoot an elk at 60 yards with a bow and arrow.

• 1:42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:43Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't, it doesn't exist. You have to train for it.

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  Every footstep matters, right? Like, every little movement you make, or like, the way you smell and like, the wind blowing.

• 1:42:53Joe Rogan?

  Not just that, you have to train for it. Like, I have a fucking hypoxia box, like a chamber out here, that I crank up to 14,000 feet above sea level and I do cardio in it.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:43:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I, I shoot my bow in the Texas heat for hours, every day.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Joe, put some roses on my grave, okay? You're gonna be around. But my version of that in the hypoxia box is like locking myself in the room, like writing a book. I'm down 120 pounds.

• 1:43:21Joe Rogan?

  That's amazing.

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  I know, I'm gonna live forever.

• 1:43:23Joe Rogan?

  What did you do? Did you do the Ozempic or did you do it all natural?

• 1:43:26Speaker 01

  No, I quit drinking first.

• 1:43:28Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 1:43:28Speaker 01

  So I think I went from like-

• 1:43:29Joe Rogan?

  100% quit drinking?

• 1:43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:31Joe Rogan?

  Do you miss it?

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  No. It wasn't my bag. Like, it turns out that's not the drug for me. I drank because like, I grew up in rural Colorado and dudes drank.

• 1:43:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  And like, I didn't really think about it until I was like 35. I was like, I'm hungover and fat and like, feel stupid and my stomach hurts and I eat bullshit all the time.

• 1:43:48Joe Rogan?

  Weed's a lot better.

• 1:43:49Speaker 01

  I love weed, yeah.

• 1:43:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's so much better.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  I love weed.

• 1:43:52Joe Rogan?

  It's so much better.

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  And weed, I can, so yeah, so I quit drinking and then I got on Manjaro, which is like, uh, I took it because it sounded like Italian food. And then, uh, my wife, who's a doctor, was like, very heavily involved in my weight loss, you know? So I think I did it the right way while using those vunder drugs, you know?

• 1:44:11Joe Rogan?

  Um, are you working out at the same time you're doing it?

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  Uh, no, no, of course not. No, I like, rode my bike and like, garden and swim, but like, no, I'm not at all any of that. But I was very conscious about like, the bone density and like, protein and stuff, because I was lucky enough to be married to a medical professional.

• 1:44:29Joe Rogan?

  That's, the protein's important, um, but also lifting something heavy is important. You don't have to work out hard.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  I want to be little for a minute, Joe. I want to be small for a second.

• 1:44:38Joe Rogan?

  It's not gonna make you big, listen, to get big is a huge task.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  But I have this frame, you know?

• 1:44:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I know you have an athlete's frame, but that, those days are gone, my friend.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  Come on, that was all state.

• 1:44:49Joe Rogan?

  I know, but that was a long fucking time ago. In order for you to put mass on the body that you have currently, it takes a lot, I'm not asking that of you.

• 1:44:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:57Joe Rogan?

  But I'm just saying, you really should do some lifting weights as you get older or your body will deteriorate.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  I know, have you been talking to my wife?

• 1:45:04Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  Okay, because she's also like, hey, you're gonna have sciatica, your shoulders are gonna hurt.

• 1:45:09Joe Rogan?

  You just have to use your body to make sure that your tissue doesn't dissolve.

• 1:45:13Speaker 01

  I know. But I hate lifting weights.

• 1:45:16Joe Rogan?

  Just do it, it's not hard. You watch a movie, put a, a good movie on and, and have some weights and watch the movie while you do a few repetitions of weights.

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:26Joe Rogan?

  You don't have to kill yourself. And, and by the way, you shouldn't. Especially when you start off, you should do it very slowly.

• 1:45:32Speaker 01

  Because my tendons are bad, probably.

• 1:45:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, you just gotta get your body used to it, and your body will adapt and it will get used to it, but you don't have to get big. I'm just saying, you have to do something to maintain your tissue.

• 1:45:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:45:43Joe Rogan?

  Because if you don't, you'll get weird atrophy while you're like, opening up a mayonnaise jar, you'll tear your fucking labrum.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, probably like, uh, sometimes I'll like, do like a gorilla type thing, and I'll be like, oh, I haven't put my arms above my head all day.

• 1:45:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:45:56Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 1:45:57Joe Rogan?

  That's another thing you should do, you should hang from a chin up bar, very important. Grab, grab your chin up bar with your hands and hang with your body weight.

• 1:46:04Speaker 01

  First things first, get a chin up bar.

• 1:46:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, get a chin up bar and hang with, just to, just to stretch your arms out so that your shoulders don't become impacted. Because like, a lot of people, they get like, frozen shoulders.

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:46:18Joe Rogan?

  Or they don't move good, that's a lot of it. It's like, everything just gets contracted and tightened. You gotta loosen it up and put, just, just lift a little bit of weights. You don't have to do a lot, man. It's just like, do 10 pushups, start off with that, 10 pushups, 10 body weight squats, not hard. Just do, just do that, do that every day. Do, 10 pushups takes you 30 seconds. 10 body weight squats takes you 30 seconds. It's no, it's no time at all. It doesn't take you a lot of time, but you just have to do something.

• 1:46:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:47Joe Rogan?

  And then go from 10 to 20, and then, you know, maybe two sets of 10, and then maybe three sets of 10, and then maybe four sets of 10, and then slowly build up over the course of months.

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  I do 50 Hindu squats a day.

• 1:47:01Joe Rogan?

  That's great.

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  That's all I've been doing.

• 1:47:02Joe Rogan?

  Hindu squats are great.

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  Well, I think Ric Flair and Chris Benoit did that.

• 1:47:05Joe Rogan?

  Yes, that's a big thing among wrestlers, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hindu squats are huge, great for your knees.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:11Joe Rogan?

  Great for just, just leg strength and all that stuff.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  That's like, the only thing I do, because I'm scared that my knees will lock up.

• 1:47:17Joe Rogan?

  There's a good, you ever do Hindu pushups?

• 1:47:19Speaker 01

  Uh, no.

• 1:47:21Joe Rogan?

  Those are great.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  Some Pakistani pushups, though.

• 1:47:22Joe Rogan?

  What are those?

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  A little spicier.

• 1:47:26Joe Rogan?

  Hindu pushups is like a bomber pushup, like, your butt goes in the air and you swoop down and you push your body weight all the way up.

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  Like a downward?

• 1:47:33Joe Rogan?

  Cobra position.

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, okay.

• 1:47:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and then you go all the way back up again and then push all the way through, it's really good. They're really good. That's, this is a Hindu pushup, so like this, and you push all the way through, just like that.

• 1:47:45Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 1:47:45Joe Rogan?

  I love those, I do those all the time.

• 1:47:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, Deep Dick the Mat.

• 1:47:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Deep Dick the Mat. And it also, it's just like, good for like, spinal flexibility and stuff like that. You don't have to do a lot, man. Like, this idea that you have to kill yourself, that's not correct. You just have to get your body used to work and then slowly build it up over time. It's, it, it's not, what people don't like is being tired and sore.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:09Joe Rogan?

  But you have to just build up to that, like, build up to the work so that you don't get tired and sore, so that you're not exhausted on stage. Like, I've done, like, I have rules, like, one, one rule is I don't do legs on a day that I have to perform. Because you just, or you're too fucking tired. Or a day, like, if I have a, like, if I have a physicist in here and we're gonna discuss quantum entanglement.

• 1:48:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:32Joe Rogan?

  I, you know, I've been going over my notes and reading this book and listening to it in the sauna and trying to like- Grasp these concepts while they're talking, I gotta be like right there.

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 1:48:44Joe Rogan?

  I can't be like, oh my god, I fucking killed myself today. I can't be like that, so I don't do that the days of. But you, what you wanna make sure is that your body doesn't deteriorate. And that's something you can't get back once it has.

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:49:00Joe Rogan?

  It's very hard. Once your, once your muscles have severely atrophied and your spine is atrophied and you've got degenerative dis- disease.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  And your hips are all fucked.

• 1:49:09Joe Rogan?

  Which is really just a lack of, you know, your, your discs just get compressed over time. And you can-

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  Gravity, the widow maker.

• 1:49:15Joe Rogan?

  But you can get away with a lot. And one of the things that hanging does, also it decompresses your discs, so it helps your back. And, um, you know, you, and you work your way up to it, like, you'll start off, just hang there for fifteen, twenty seconds, like whatever you could do. And then eventually you'll get to like thirty or forty seconds, and then eventually, you know, maybe you can get to a minute or two minutes.

• 1:49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think a gradual thing would be helpful.

• 1:49:37Joe Rogan?

  Yes, it's all gradual, like, we have comedians workouts, we do in my gym here, and, uh-

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  I saw Sagalow, that was insane.

• 1:49:45Joe Rogan?

  What's that?

• 1:49:46Speaker 01

  Did you see Brendan Sagalow working out with Kreischer?

• 1:49:49Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:49:49Speaker 01

  Dude, he's fucking yoked.

• 1:49:51Joe Rogan?

  I don't know Sagalow.

• 1:49:52Speaker 01

  Oh, Sagalow's a very funny comic in New York.

• 1:49:54Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, and he's like opening for Kreischer and they did one of those-

• 1:49:57Joe Rogan?

  Oh, nice.

• 1:49:57Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, dude, he was nuts.

• 1:49:59Joe Rogan?

  But my point is, these guys, a lot of them had never worked out before, so I show them how to work out, I teach them different things, but I say, we're not gonna kill you. No one's gonna die here today, we're gonna do it nice and easy, and I want you to do what I do, I'm gonna show you a few movements, and we're gonna do it slowly. And I want you to do it until it's uncomfortable, and then stop.

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  It's like when I do yoga with my wife.

• 1:50:19Joe Rogan?

  Yoga's fantastic.

• 1:50:20Speaker 01

  I like yoga.

• 1:50:21Joe Rogan?

  Yo, well, there's a thing that you should do then.

• 1:50:23Speaker 01

  I do that with her like twice a week, you know, begrudgingly, you know?

• 1:50:28Joe Rogan?

  Yoga is fantastic for your spine, for decompression, for maintaining flexibility.

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  My hips, that's what it is, cuz it's like so much sitting on like airplanes or like writing, it's a lot of sitting, and then you're like, oh, my body's just an L shape now.

• 1:50:42Joe Rogan?

  Yoga's great for your brain too, man.

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  Dude, yeah, begin being present.

• 1:50:45Joe Rogan?

  Sober October thing once, and, um, we had to do yoga, um, like, we have like different challenges that we do every year. And one of the challenges was we had to do fifteen ninety-minute hot yoga sessions in a month. And so we were doing like yoga every other day.

• 1:51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:01Joe Rogan?

  But we did a bunch of them together, it was really fun, it was like Tom and Bert and Ari and me, we had a great time. But, uh, at the end of it, I was like, god, why don't I just do this all the time? And I got to a point where I was doing it at least twice a week, and then I really tapered off.

• 1:51:15Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:51:15Joe Rogan?

  Um, but when we were doing it, those fifteen in a month, I felt so relaxed and so nice.

• 1:51:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:23Joe Rogan?

  And so kind and calm, like it, it beats you up so much when you're doing those ninety-minute sessions that afterwards, and there's something about it that it's like very psychedelic. Like, it, it gets you high, it gets you high.

• 1:51:35Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I think that you're wringing out some stuff and then there's like new, I don't know, the plasticity of the body has to be directly correlated with the plasticity of the mind.

• 1:51:44Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  Like, I feel so much better if I start my day while like, you know, walking outside and then immediately into the garden before I write or look at my phone. It's like I gotta get into my body, cuz I wake up sore, because I do use my body, not for these, you know. Dude, when COVID hit, my buddy Chris Pierce, who's like, you know, a Viking, was like, get a weight set and just like lock in. So I was like, cool, so I got the squat rack, I got the, you know, the bench pad, the bench, as we call it. That's how bad I am at working out, I don't know the name of the thing, but I also bought like the plates, and I was like, how many plates do you think I should get? And he was like, oh, just get like, you know, ninety pounds, like forty-five and forty-five.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  I of course got like eight forty-five pound plates, cuz I was like, I'm gonna need these in six months, like, I'll be in here every day, of course I'm gonna have to be able to lift-

• 1:52:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:52:34Speaker 01

  Three hundred and sixty pounds, I, those plates have never, ever-

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  Four of them are still in the box, Joe.

• 1:52:43Joe Rogan?

  That's okay.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  I moved plates from three separate homes now.

• 1:52:47Joe Rogan?

  Maybe they're there, so you could use them now, and here's the, here's the key.

• 1:52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:52Joe Rogan?

  This is the key, and this is not just, doesn't just apply to weightlifting, it applies to getting things done. Write down a list of the stuff you have to do, just write it down, this is the most important thing. Like, you could do it, you have an iPhone.

• 1:53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:06Joe Rogan?

  iPhone, one of the cool things about the Note apps is you have, um, you have a little, you can make a little checklist.

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:12Joe Rogan?

  And so you write those things down, and this is your daily thing, you just have to do it.

• 1:53:16Speaker 01

  So you're, you're a list guy?

• 1:53:18Joe Rogan?

  It's important.

• 1:53:18Speaker 01

  I'm never been a list guy.

• 1:53:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, I don't have to do it anymore because I'm so regimented.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:23Joe Rogan?

  Like, I know what I do, I just get up and I do it, and I have, I still have that, like today, I did not wanna get in the cold plunge, I did not wanna work out.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:31Joe Rogan?

  But my brain is just like, fuck you, you do what I tell you to do, you just go do it, and I got in, I got out, oh, glad I did it. And then I do my mobility exercises, then I worked out. Uh, but if you're not regimented, if it's not like a normal daily part of your routine, you can make it by just writing a list down. And that includes, um, taking your vitamins, that includes writing for, you know, two hours, that include, whatever, whatever it is you think you need to get done, write it down. Don't just allow your brain to wander and not fill that list. Make sure that you have a list, and if you have a list, you will follow that list, and you'd be amazed at how much more you can get done if you have a list.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  Cuz I'm so regimented when it comes to writing, or when it comes to, you know, the other creative aspects of my life, the stuff that fires my brain.

• 1:54:20Joe Rogan?

  Perfect.

• 1:54:20Speaker 01

  Very regimented, but like if I have to go to the post, if my wife's like, you need to go to the post office and go to the grocery store, I'm like, well, that's impossible. What are you talking about? There's eight hours in the day, I don't know what you mean, and she's like, they're three blocks away, and I'm like, okay, and I'm like pissy about it.

• 1:54:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:36Speaker 01

  Like, these little human tasks seem like such distractions from my grand ideals, and then-

• 1:54:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're an impulsive creative person.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  But then I don't necessarily use that time that I could've gone to the grocery store-

• 1:54:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  To like, you know, dive into the next great American novel.

• 1:54:53Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:54:54Speaker 01

  There's, it's, yeah, we're like such, we're our own worst enemies.

• 1:54:58Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  These things up here are such a powerful tool that like, they can be used for good, be used for evil, and like trying to figure out how to best maintain yours is like, I guess, the human experience.

• 1:55:11Joe Rogan?

  Have you read Pressfield's book, The War of Art?

• 1:55:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 1:55:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's a great book for people that are struggling with this.

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  But that's like, the whole thing there is like, just do the job.

• 1:55:21Joe Rogan?

  Yes, you're a professional.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  Do it, yeah, be a professional, that's how I feel about stand-up, I'm a professional. I show up at six thirty for the seven o'clock show, I learn everyone's name and that works in the club, I tip out appropriately, I treat it like a job. I'm not at all a diva at all in there, like, I hate when I, I always love asking the green room server, who's the worst one?

• 1:55:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:41Speaker 01

  It's my favorite part of the weekend.

• 1:55:43Joe Rogan?

  I used to ask the guy who drove everybody to the radio station.

• 1:55:46Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:55:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and you know who it always was? Richard Jenny. It's such a bummer, cuz he was like one of my absolute favorites, but he's a guy that wanted to be Jim Carrey. He wanted to be Jerry Seinfeld, he wanted to be a movie star or a television star, and it didn't happen. And he was the best club comic on earth and hated it.

• 1:56:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:07Joe Rogan?

  And was selling out everywhere he went and making a great living, it didn't matter.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  And the respect of all his peers.

• 1:56:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, he was, did you ever get to see him live?

• 1:56:16Speaker 01

  No, but I, I was lucky enough that my dad was like, cool, so I've seen Richard Jenny for sure.

• 1:56:21Joe Rogan?

  You have to see him li- you had to see him live, he, live, he was, he was extraordinary, it was like a tell.

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:56:26Joe Rogan?

  Like, when you see him live, you're like, oh my god, he's hypnotizing me, like, I'm captured by this guy's cadence and his mannerisms, and it's like, the flow was so perfect. I tell the story, if you've heard it again, I'm sorry, but he worked at East Side Comedy Club, uh, on Long Island, and, uh, I, uh, was working somewhere else, and I came in to visit a friend. And I was talking to this guy that I knew that was the, the host, and the guy was completely dejected. And, uh, I said, why, what's going on? He goes, Jenny was here Friday and Saturday, he did two shows Friday, two shows Saturday, he did four completely different hours-

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 1:57:04Joe Rogan?

  And murdered.

• 1:57:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:05Joe Rogan?

  I was like, holy shit.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:07Joe Rogan?

  At that time, I had a fucking barely patched together forty minutes of material.

• 1:57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of crowd work, a lot of whose birthday is it?

• 1:57:16Joe Rogan?

  Stretching to forty-five, so I could headline, and he was doing four different hours, I was like, holy fuck. And I had paid to see him do stand-up when I was an open mic'er, and, um, just blown away, and this was like when he wasn't selling out. I had paid to see, this is in eighty-eight, I saw him at Catch Rising Star in Cambridge, Cambridge, Massachusetts, and, uh, I sat like in the front row and he made fun of me, I was like, this is great. But he was so good, god, he was so good, and, you know, miserable, wound up killing himself.

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:48Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's like, you, you hear about that, and you're like, god, that guy hated it? That guy hated it? Like, he, that's the dream.

• 1:57:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:57Joe Rogan?

  The dream was to be the man. Like, he was the guy that Chris Rock used to work with before all of his specials. Like, especially like Bigger and Blacker and Bring the Pain.

• 1:58:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:07Joe Rogan?

  Like, those two ones, like, Richard Jenny had a large hand in helping him with those. Chris Rock is brilliant in that. He is one of the few guys that I know that would, um, he has his material, he does his set, but then he would brainstorm with writers, and he'd bring these other comics that he respected, you know?

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  Like Louis, I think, DePaulo, I think, yeah.

• 1:58:27Joe Rogan?

  DePaulo, and, uh, yeah.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  So funny.

• 1:58:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god, back in the day.

• 1:58:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:31Joe Rogan?

  Back in the day.

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  I got to meet him at Skank Fest, and I went up and I was like, hey, man, I just want to let you know, you're the legend. And he went, who the fuck are you?

• 1:58:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but those guys helped him put those specials together, and a big part of it was Jenny, and apparently, I haven't talked to Chris about this, but apparently Jenny was the one guy that would tell him, no, that joke sucks. Get that, get it out of there.

• 1:58:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:52Joe Rogan?

  Like, that one's not gonna work. We gotta figure this out. And he would help him with stuff, and, cause Jenny was just so on point. He was so on point. He was, and his bits, he was the very best at expanding a premise to its ultimate destination.

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:08Joe Rogan?

  He would just keep adding tags and tags and take it in a different direction. You'd think it's over, and he'd bring it right back. And you're like, oh, my god, it was a masterpiece.

• 1:59:17Speaker 01

  Dude, when you can, like, have them, and they think, like you said, like, when you know what's gonna happen?

• 1:59:21Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:59:22Speaker 01

  And then, well, obviously, that's comedy is like the switch.

• 1:59:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:25Speaker 01

  But when they think, like, when the nerds come to the show, and they think that they know not just where it's going, but what the backup or the C route is, and then you can hit them with the D route, god, that feels good.

• 1:59:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:34Speaker 01

  But tell us the same way. God forbid you say, hey, Dave, I think you're funny.

• 1:59:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:38Speaker 01

  You know, cause then he's like, get out, you know, show's over.

• 1:59:42Joe Rogan?

  He gets upset, yeah. He doesn't like any praise at all.

• 1:59:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:59:45Joe Rogan?

  He, but that's also why he's so good, because he doesn't live in that. And he also does not engage at all with social media.

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:59:53Joe Rogan?

  But it's hurt him in terms of his ticket sales. He's like the least appreciated brilliant comedian, because he should be selling out arenas everywhere.

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  But he doesn't want to. He wants to be a club guy.

• 2:00:03Joe Rogan?

  I understand.

• 2:00:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:04Joe Rogan?

  But, I mean, just the, the overwhelming response to his, it should be like people just like, like beating down the doors to go see him.

• 2:00:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:13Joe Rogan?

  Like, if you get a chance to see him before he goes, and I don't know when he's gonna die, I'm not, not wishing.

• 2:00:17Speaker 01

  He could be dead right now.

• 2:00:17Joe Rogan?

  He could be dead right now, while we're talking.

• 2:00:19Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 2:00:19Joe Rogan?

  He's not the healthiest guy in the world.

• 2:00:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:00:21Joe Rogan?

  Uh, but he's so, he was at the club, uh, like, a year ago, and, uh, we were all sitting in the balcony going, I'm fucking hypnotized. He's hypnotizing me. He's so good.

• 2:00:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:32Joe Rogan?

  And so out there. And he, during the pandemic, he started bringing a flute on stage.

• 2:00:37Speaker 01

  A recorder.

• 2:00:38Joe Rogan?

  A recorder, that's right.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  Well, we all went through some tough stuff during that crazy time.

• 2:00:43Joe Rogan?

  But the fucking recorder worked. It worked with his kind of comedy, like, it actually added to it.

• 2:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, he's just so silly. There's not enough silly left in comedy. I love silly.

• 2:00:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, everybody wants to be brilliant. They wanna be, they wanna be taken seriously. I just don't think there's any benefit to that.

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  That thing you said earlier about, like, how you didn't, you were doing bar shows, right? Cause you could headline quicker and get the $200?

• 2:01:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:08Speaker 01

  So you know Wendy at Comedy Works, right?

• 2:01:10Joe Rogan?

  Sure, love her.

• 2:01:11Speaker 01

  My beloved. Uh, when my, she, they have the program where you, like, get bumped up so you can host at the Comedy Works?

• 2:01:18Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  And you're not paid yet, but then the next level, you get paid. So there's like, anyway. All my friends got bumped up to that first level together, and it was awesome. And then the next level, when they did promotions, I was left out of that list. And I was like, what the fuck? Cause I was the same as you. I wasn't haunting the club because I was going on the road and doing all the bar shows in Wyoming and the mountain states, because I thought that was the goal, was to get an hour. Like, you wanna be a headliner, you wanna get the hour. So I finally say to Wendy, I'm like, hey, like, why didn't I get promoted like everyone else did? And she's like, let's go to lunch. And she was like, well, honey, you don't sign up, uh, you're never at the club, you never host, you're never available on the weekends.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  Like, it doesn't seem like you give a shit. And I was like, no, no, I've been working more than anyone. Like, I just got back from five weeks on the road, and I remember I told her, and I came home with $500. Like, I really am devoted to this. And she went, oh, I just thought you were like a lazy stoner. And I was like, well, part of that's true, you know, like, you know, we can be everything at once. But, uh, yeah.

• 2:02:23Joe Rogan?

  So it was just a lack of communication?

• 2:02:24Speaker 01

  It was a lack of communication.

• 2:02:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:25Speaker 01

  And I thought that that was the goal, man. And I'm so glad that, like, I'm not good at a showcase set. Like, I do the, the shows at the club when I'm in town. I'll do, like, one of the And Friends, and I always wanna go up first, you know? Because what's funny about your club is, uh, they'll be like, alright, Tony Hinchcliffe and Friends, and like, Ari Matty will come out, and everyone does the worm. You know, everyone, like, loses their fucking minds. Then they're like, alright, next up, Ron White, and people are like on fire. And then they're like, alright, everyone, Sam Tallent, and you can hear him be like, alright, that's, that's also good, you know? There's like, it's not Shane Gillis, but that's fine. So I like going up first because I didn't come up doing showcases.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  I came up on the road headlining. So now, like, when I go to New York and LA and I have to audition, like, I'm usually the weakest one, cause I don't have that muscle.

• 2:03:12Joe Rogan?

  Right, that 15-minute banner set muscle, right? You, you stretch your thoughts into like a, an hour. You take a journey.

• 2:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:20Speaker 01

  Like, I know how to do an hour, but doing 15 is like, still not something I'm the best at.

• 2:03:26Joe Rogan?

  Eh, you could learn. You're a great, great comic. You just figure it out. It's not that hard.

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  No, I know. It's just like, that's such a weird facet that I've been doing this for two decades, but still, like, there's a part of it that I'm like aware of the fact that I, there's people who are better than me, and I think that's like good in art, to be aware of what you're really bad at, as opposed to being aware of what you're really good at.

• 2:03:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, for sure. It's certainly better than being the best guy. Being the best guy's a weird position to be in.

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  That crown sucks.

• 2:03:53Joe Rogan?

  Oof.

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  God damn.

• 2:03:54Joe Rogan?

  It's rough.

• 2:03:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:55Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 2:03:56Joe Rogan?

  And I think in, probably in everything, that crown is hard to carry.

• 2:04:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:04:00Joe Rogan?

  It's hard to carry the, the number one guy crown.

• 2:04:02Speaker 01

  I mean, it's like Shane drinks a lot of Bud Lights. Yeah, you try being Mount Rushmore, alright? Yeah, let's have a little patience with the guy.

• 2:04:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, he gotta drag a lot of Bud Lights before.

• 2:04:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:13Joe Rogan?

  But, yeah, well, he, one of the things from the SNL thing is like, his reaction to it was just delete social media, which was great.

• 2:04:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:21Joe Rogan?

  Very wise, you know? He was in it for a little while, was like really fucking with his head, and he's like, look, I'm just getting this shit off my phone.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:28Joe Rogan?

  And I think we all should do that.

• 2:04:30Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. We're being manipulated constantly.

• 2:04:33Joe Rogan?

  I have a second, well, I have multiple phone numbers, but I'm gonna switch over primarily to a different phone number, and then just have that phone just for if I have to post something.

• 2:04:44Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:04:44Joe Rogan?

  And I'm not gonna have, so, so if somebody sends me something, and it's interesting, which is most the way I get social media now.

• 2:04:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:53Joe Rogan?

  Somebody has to send me something interesting, or, and I have friends that, they send me cool shit, I send them cool shit. And I'm gonna have to send it to that phone.

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:05:01Joe Rogan?

  And then check that phone once a day.

• 2:05:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:04Joe Rogan?

  Like, is there anything here? But you, you gotta get your brain back.

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:08Joe Rogan?

  You know, you gotta get your brain back. And there's not a whole lot of ways to avoid the pull of gravity of these fucking, these apps and algorithms that are sucking us into this, this fucking hurricane of despair that we're all living in.

• 2:05:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, fear, bleakness, yeah, lack of resources.

• 2:05:27Joe Rogan?

  And anger. This is one of the reasons why so, so many people are so angry at varying perspectives and, and opinions. It's because you, you're being fed, you're being fed this. It's not good for you.

• 2:05:38Speaker 01

  Well, it's not good, and then it's also like the people who are mad about that kind of shit, like, they read 1984, and they don't realize that they became the thought police.

• 2:05:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:05:47Speaker 01

  You know? It's like, you guys think you're on the right side of history, but you're like, literally trying to remove, like, conversations.

• 2:05:53Joe Rogan?

  Uh.

• 2:05:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's one of the weirder responses to the Shane thing. I saw people saying, like, I can't believe he still uses the word whore.

• 2:06:00Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:06:00Joe Rogan?

  Like, what? Why are we, why are you, why would you stop using words?

• 2:06:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:05Joe Rogan?

  Like, some, like, don't use it for your mom.

• 2:06:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:06:08Joe Rogan?

  Right? Like, there's, there's times to use it and times not to use it. But there's great words, and they mean different things. There's a lot of nuance to language. It's one of the things that's interesting about it, is these words can have various meanings.

• 2:06:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:22Joe Rogan?

  Depending upon the context.

• 2:06:23Speaker 01

  They're symbols and tools, and he chose that tool because he knew that it would get certain sparks. You know what I mean?

• 2:06:30Joe Rogan?

  It's provocative.

• 2:06:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:31Joe Rogan?

  And the, the punchline was him in the background, looking like a fucking dork, looking like a creep in the back of these girls' TikToks, where they have no clothes on.

• 2:06:39Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. And he looks like a drawing of the moon, who's all pink-faced.

• 2:06:43Joe Rogan?

  But the response to it has just been like so outrageous. And then you see these, and it's always comics. You know that quote, again, I, sorry, I repeat this, but? All criticism is a tragic result of unmet needs.

• 2:06:57Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:06:57Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of these like mid-level comedians that are just struggling and been getting no traction forever. And so many of them are the ones that piled on.

• 2:07:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, nothing curdles like hope. That becomes a real nasty, stinky smell. Like when you like had aspirations.

• 2:07:14Joe Rogan?

  Forty-four and you realize it's never gonna happen.

• 2:07:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:18Joe Rogan?

  And you're still like barely middling.

• 2:07:20Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. Yeah, you're doing like Wednesday, Sundays.

• 2:07:22Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's tough.

• 2:07:24Joe Rogan?

  And no one's coming to see you. And it didn't work. It didn't happen.

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  And there but for the grace of God go I. You know what I mean? Like those guys, I get it. Like that does suck.

• 2:07:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, for sure. We all get it.

• 2:07:33Speaker 01

  But like fuck.

• 2:07:33Joe Rogan?

  But it's not the, it's not the thing. And by the way, how mu- how hard are those guys working? Are they working really hard?

• 2:07:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:07:38Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. I don't know, but I know a lot of them aren't. I know a lot of them that I know that are complainers that aren't working hard. And they're not that creative and they don't do whatever the fuck it takes to, to change your perspective or to, to have something that like, like whatever it is to make that act more potent. They're not doing it.

• 2:07:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:07:57Joe Rogan?

  You know, and I see a lot of them.

• 2:07:59Speaker 01

  Blaming everybody else.

• 2:07:59Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:08:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and it's easier. It's easier to do that for whatever reason. And it's a, just a part of the human condition. We have this, you know, desire to outsource our problems. You know, it's like, it's not internal, it's not me, it's other people. It's this guy is doing this. How come this is happening? Why is that guy? Who do you, you know? God, such a waste. But the, you know, the key is to just not fall into that trap.

• 2:08:29Speaker 01

  And then they don't focus on themselves at all. So it's like, they are very good at telling you how to live your life. But yet if you were to examine what's going on inside their homes.

• 2:08:39Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 2:08:39Speaker 01

  It's bleak and horrifying.

• 2:08:40Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 2:08:41Speaker 01

  But like, you don't, they don't live a public life.

• 2:08:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:08:44Speaker 01

  So they're never held up to the light to be examined. And they just get to be like, oh, you're wrong. And it's like, alright, bro, what the fuck have you done with your life?

• 2:08:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:08:53Speaker 01

  And that's what sucks is like back in the day, criticism used to come from like people who, as opinion you respected. Like Harold Bloom read every book and you were like, okay, if he likes this, he's read every other one. But now it's everyone's opinion is just as valuable as anyone else's. And any kind of like criticism has been removed of any kind of like, you know, authoritarian, authority.

• 2:09:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  And, uh, yeah, we're just like left with like, you know, dudes who have the John Pork emoji being like, you're fat and gay.

• 2:09:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, you just have to learn how to filter noise.

• 2:09:25Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:09:26Joe Rogan?

  You know, and it's hard.

• 2:09:27Speaker 01

  It's getting off the phone, dude. I didn't know Patrick Stewart died, cause I'm not on my phone at all.

• 2:09:31Joe Rogan?

  That's.

• 2:09:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, like that's how detached I am.

• 2:09:34Joe Rogan?

  I had no idea he was that old.

• 2:09:36Speaker 01

  How old was he?

• 2:09:36Joe Rogan?

  Eighty-six.

• 2:09:37Speaker 01

  Rock and roll man.

• 2:09:38Joe Rogan?

  Essentially the same age as Shatner. Which is really crazy because he was the young, new Kirk.

• 2:09:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:45Joe Rogan?

  When we got rid of the old Kirk, but he was kinda the same age, which threw me for a loop.

• 2:09:50Speaker 01

  I don't think that he.

• 2:09:51Joe Rogan?

  How old is Shatner? He's gotta be like ninety.

• 2:09:53Speaker 01

  Ninety-five.

• 2:09:53Joe Rogan?

  Ninety-five.

• 2:09:55Speaker 01

  I would have never ima- imagined that Patrick Stewart was only nine years younger than Shatner.

• 2:09:59Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right, joe rogan dot com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace dot com slash rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code rogan to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Today is brought to you by the number one brand for better sex, BlueChew.

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• 2:11:27Speaker 01

  I guess he was kinda timeless in my head, cause I think of him as Professor X.

• 2:11:31Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:11:31Speaker 01

  You know, so it's Logan, that kinda stuff.

• 2:11:35Joe Rogan?

  Shatner was on stage, I mean, was on television in what?

• 2:11:40Speaker 01

  Sixty-five?

• 2:11:41Joe Rogan?

  Is that what it was?

• 2:11:41Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:11:42Joe Rogan?

  What year was the first year of, um, Star Trek?

• 2:11:46Speaker 01

  And he probably acted in all types of shit before that too, right?

• 2:11:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, it was in Twilight Zone.

• 2:11:50Speaker 01

  Twilight Zone, yeah, man. Condos are good. Those hold up, man. Do you like Black Mirror? Put on an old, put on an old Twilight Zone.

• 2:11:57Joe Rogan?

  Not only did they hold up, but god, they killed so many amazing premises.

• 2:12:01Speaker 01

  Dude.

• 2:12:01Joe Rogan?

  They, they, they had so mu- they were like the first to the table. They ate all the good food.

• 2:12:07Speaker 01

  Hyper prescient, yeah.

• 2:12:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  Dude, the one where the guy like is at the end of the world and he wants everyone to go away. But then he loses his glasses.

• 2:12:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:14Speaker 01

  Dude, I've had that nightmare. Dude. That's so scary. I thought about the apocalypse, like during COVID, I was like, I'm done. I'm gonna lose one lens in my glasses and then I'm just gonna be like a, you know, a pig that people can put shit inside of. I'll be like putting the stockade and people will just come fuck my holes, cause I'm not gonna be useful at all.

• 2:12:34Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy. Sixty-six.

• 2:12:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:12:36Joe Rogan?

  In the next generation. In Canada.

• 2:12:37Speaker 01

  Twenty years after that.

• 2:12:39Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:12:40Speaker 01

  I'm gonna be the man trap.

• 2:12:41Joe Rogan?

  So twenty years after that, next generation and Patrick Stewart is only ten years or nine years older, or nine years younger, rather. I would have guessed he's like decades.

• 2:12:52Speaker 01

  He was so smooth. He showed no outward signs of age. Whoa, Joey from Friends?

• 2:12:59Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 2:12:59Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 2:13:08Speaker 01

  It's a Mandela effect.

• 2:13:10Joe Rogan?

  What's also crazy is that like, I mean, there wasn't very many shows back then.

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:13:15Joe Rogan?

  You'd have a show like Star Trek that was so interesting and so ahead of its time in 1966.

• 2:13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:22Joe Rogan?

  Like a science fiction television show like that, that's nuts.

• 2:13:25Speaker 01

  I have a, I have a bit that like is kind of dependent on people understanding what a big deal Frasier was. And it's like, really hard to describe to 23-year-olds, like how little television there was while like also being funny, you know?

• 2:13:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, the shared experience has made, uh, references a lot more difficult. My buddy Nathan Lund opens and he's got a chunk on the band Chevelle. And like the first two minutes of that is him explaining who Chevelle was to all these people. And it's like, maybe you just don't do the Chevelle bit, you know? If you gotta explain it to everybody.

• 2:13:57Joe Rogan?

  That's a problem though. It's like, if you got a great Chevelle bit.

• 2:14:00Speaker 01

  It's, it is, this has to be the best Chevelle bit anyone's ever done. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's so strange to like try and maintain, uh, an understanding of what's going on in the world. But like, as you get older, you realize all that shit that you used to care about, like doesn't matter at all. So then there's people who are still younger and they're coming and they're furious or they're like figuring shit out. And it's like, good, good, good. But like, I'm 39. I'm not mad anymore. I burnt up all my rage when I was living in the commune and shit and like.

• 2:14:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, we're gonna talk about that.

• 2:14:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:32Joe Rogan?

  The anarchist commune.

• 2:14:33Speaker 01

  I think we might have on my first epi.

• 2:14:34Joe Rogan?

  Did we?

• 2:14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe. But yeah, I lived in a commune in upstate New York. It was awesome. We did, I think, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:40Joe Rogan?

  We did. I forgot about it though.

• 2:14:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:42Joe Rogan?

  So why were you, how old were you?

• 2:14:44Speaker 01

  I was like nineteen, twenty.

• 2:14:46Joe Rogan?

  And so how'd you find out about it?

• 2:14:49Speaker 01

  Oh, my buddy Clay went to school in Ithaca and like we were in, like he's, he was my best friend. We were in, uh, bands together growing up. And then he went up there and I went up there and like stayed with him for a bit around Christmas.

• 2:15:00Joe Rogan?

  Now I remember talking about.

• 2:15:01Speaker 01

  And there was like a bunch of like hot chicks without bras. And I was like, I'm gonna see how this goes.

• 2:15:07Speaker 01

  And then failed to bed any of them, but still, it was like, yeah, it was in the lifetime.

• 2:15:11Joe Rogan?

  Anarchy.

• 2:15:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:13Joe Rogan?

  People love anarchy. You know, the idea of structure, structure and rules doesn't seem like fun for young people. They wanna throw it all away and chaos and, I mean, there's a lot of kids today, like these kids on universities. They wanna burn society to the ground to rebuild it. But like, be careful what you wish for. Cause rebuild it how? Like who's gonna be in control? Who's gonna run it?

• 2:15:32Speaker 01

  What's the thing is leaders without rulers, right?

• 2:15:35Joe Rogan?

  The idea that it's gonna be run in a way that's gonna benefit everyone is crazy. It's never happened before, ever. And this idea that they're gonna reinvent socialism and reinvent Marxism and find the, the perfect solution. Like it's alchemy. We just see, one day we're gonna turn lead into gold. So we have to figure it out.

• 2:15:53Speaker 01

  I think it's more like removing coercion from life. You know what I mean? Like that's the big thing. It's like systems of coercion kinda suck.

• 2:16:01Joe Rogan?

  Coercion, how so?

• 2:16:03Speaker 01

  You know, like, uh, the fact that we have to spend our lives. Trading our bodies for capital, you know?

• 2:16:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, that might be removed with AI.

• 2:16:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that would be cool for sure if people could like have, you know, their humanity back. I mean, people are like, America is really bad right now. There's a lot of desperate shit going on.

• 2:16:24Joe Rogan?

  It's better than most of the world.

• 2:16:26Speaker 01

  I know, that's what, so that's the thing is like, the world is-

• 2:16:29Joe Rogan?

  The idea that America is bad.

• 2:16:31Speaker 01

  I'm not saying America is bad, I'm saying that life for most Americans is not what they were promised. That's what I'm saying. There's a lot of people working like sixty hours a week and they're not gonna ever own a house and their kids have to eat like Hot Pockets for dinner because they're exhausted when they get home. Like, there's just, it's tough to be just a person. There's no middle class anymore. It's like-

• 2:16:49Joe Rogan?

  True.

• 2:16:50Speaker 01

  Pretty fucked.

• 2:16:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's bleak. The concept about AI and this idea that we're all gonna get a stake in it and then it's going to give, you know, Elon always talks about it as universal high income and that everyone will have a share in AI because it's gonna generate so much revenue and so much value because everything's gonna be automated, including resource management, extraction of minerals and and everything that we need to run society is gonna be automated and that the only way you're gonna have a functional society is if you have a universal income. Because otherwise, there's gonna be too many people out of work.

• 2:17:31Joe Rogan?

  But then, the question's going to be, can we reteach people to seek meaning in following things that are interesting to them and following their passions rather than basing their identity solely on what they do for a living? Because there's a lot of people out there that they get great satisfaction by being the guy that people come to because they're really good at a job.

• 2:17:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:56Joe Rogan?

  Whatever that job is.

• 2:17:57Speaker 01

  They get off on their status and their position in the world.

• 2:17:59Joe Rogan?

  Yes, and if those jobs are removed because now fucking robots do them, which I think is coming, whether we like it or not, I don't think you're gonna be able to stop that.

• 2:18:09Speaker 01

  How soon, man?

• 2:18:10Joe Rogan?

  Real soon.

• 2:18:10Speaker 01

  Real soon?

• 2:18:11Joe Rogan?

  Real soon.

• 2:18:11Speaker 01

  Like-

• 2:18:12Joe Rogan?

  Five, ten years, it's over.

• 2:18:13Speaker 01

  So like, no one has a job anymore?

• 2:18:16Joe Rogan?

  No, there'll be some jobs. One of the beautiful things about what we do is we'll always exist.

• 2:18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:21Joe Rogan?

  Comedy, live performance, live music, and I think even writing. And it's one of the things I wanna talk to you about this. There's a weird thing that's going on now where I see people writing things on Twitter that I know they didn't write. And there's people that I know and I don't wanna call them out because I like them, they're nice.

• 2:18:40Speaker 01

  Name names, let's go nuts. Scorch it, Joe.

• 2:18:43Joe Rogan?

  I'm trying to not do that at all anymore. As time goes on, I've become less and less-

• 2:18:51Speaker 01

  Reactionary?

• 2:18:52Joe Rogan?

  Interested in being mean.

• 2:18:54Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:18:54Joe Rogan?

  Like, I don't feel, I could be mean to a lot, I could be fucking vicious to a lot of people. I have that in me, unfortunately.

• 2:19:01Speaker 01

  We all do.

• 2:19:01Joe Rogan?

  And I push it away more, and I'm getting way better at it than I've ever been at it before. And I'm getting way better at being more charitable and kinder. And I think, as a person who has the number one podcast in the world, I think it's my responsibility to be nicer. I really do. And it's not just that I want to be because I do, and I, not just that I think it's valuable because I do, but I think it's also, if I have a responsibility, it's to set a tone of behavior. So I never attack people, I just don't. Occasionally, I'll attack certain, certain public figure, politicians, corrupt people. People are doing something awful that I think is like really bad for society.

• 2:19:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:43Joe Rogan?

  But other than that, I try to just be as charitable as possible.

• 2:19:48Speaker 01

  I think empathy, right? Like-

• 2:19:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:50Speaker 01

  Like, that was my whole issue with like the woke versus anti-woke. It's like, it just felt like empathy versus lack of empathy, you know? It's like, people were like, I wanna say retard, and it's like, cool, that is funny, I get it, but like, you're not gonna say retard if someone with Down Syndrome's in the room. So you have empathy.

• 2:20:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:20:06Speaker 01

  You know? So it's like, this whole like, oh, anyway. I'm, I, I hear what you're saying and I applaud what you're saying.

• 2:20:13Joe Rogan?

  Language policing is a problem, but it's also like, the holier-than-thou. There's just a lot of-

• 2:20:18Speaker 01

  Scolding sucks.

• 2:20:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, scolding sucks. And it doesn't work. Here's the other problem, it makes people push back, it makes people more angry, more aggressive.

• 2:20:26Speaker 01

  If Kamala would've called Trump a retard once, she would've won.

• 2:20:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I know, you do that bit.

• 2:20:30Speaker 01

  It's a good bit.

• 2:20:31Joe Rogan?

  It's a good bit, and it's-

• 2:20:32Speaker 01

  samtallent.com, folks.

• 2:20:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, if she came off as a normal person, but I think the problem also is like the pressure, right? You know, like, remember talking about the pressure of Hicks being able to do that set? There's also the pressure of Kamala. You know how crazy it must be, the pressure of running for fucking president?

• 2:20:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:20:52Joe Rogan?

  And being on these podcasts and these, doing these interviews and blundering? Because you're just, you can't even think correct, straight. And it doesn't necessarily even mean that you're gonna be a bad leader. It just means that you can't think straight.

• 2:21:07Speaker 01

  It's a hyper-

• 2:21:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:08Speaker 01

  Like, it's like when I, when you do panel on Kill Tony. It's like, that's a really hard thing to be good at.

• 2:21:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah!

• 2:21:13Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, not a lot of people are like built for that amount of pressure.

• 2:21:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:17Speaker 01

  Especially live, in front of people, which when you are a politician, you have to speak a lot.

• 2:21:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, and then you know when you're saying something stupid. And then this, that thing, where you've already blundered, it enters into your head and you're like, oh, no!

• 2:21:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 2:21:30Joe Rogan?

  I'm saying something stupid!

• 2:21:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:32Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 2:21:33Speaker 01

  And I think we're lucky because we've said so much stupid shit that we don't even think about it anymore. Like, we've thrown so much spaghetti at the wall doing a million podcasts.

• 2:21:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, certainly me. I mean, I've, I've said so much stupid shit. And if you just wanted to have the least charitable take on me and just go over every stupid thing I've ever seen and, and put it together, okay, good luck. But that says more about you than it does about what I'm actually saying. Because what I think, in terms of what we're gonna be dealing with in the next five or ten years, is we're gonna be dealing with humans versus non-humans. And I think non-humans are going to be running the show. Like, literal non-humans, like, non-human, non-biological intelligence is going to be running the show. And I think it's imperative that we not be at each other's throats and recognize that this is coming.

• 2:22:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It'll be the ultimate class war.

• 2:22:27Joe Rogan?

  It's the ultimate class war because it's gonna be, we're not gonna be the apex predator anymore. There's gonna be a thing that has ultimate domain over us.

• 2:22:35Speaker 01

  What do you mean, bro? This is fucking heavy, what are you talking about, ultimate domain?

• 2:22:39Joe Rogan?

  I don't think it's a technology. I think it's a life force. I think it's a life form. I think it's digital life. And I think it's going to be infinitely more intelligent than us. And I think it's going to be exponentially more intelligent as each day goes by.

• 2:22:57Speaker 01

  Every second, every minute, right?

• 2:22:58Joe Rogan?

  Versions of itself.

• 2:22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:59Joe Rogan?

  It's basically a digital god.

• 2:23:02Speaker 01

  Huh. So it's always iterating, it's always improving, it's always making changes?

• 2:23:06Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, it has access to, it, it's going to have access to resources that we can't even imagine.

• 2:23:11Speaker 01

  Like, what do you mean?

• 2:23:12Joe Rogan?

  It's going to be able to figure out cold fusion, like, very quickly. It's already solved mathematical problems that we've struggled with for decades.

• 2:23:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:23:18Joe Rogan?

  You know it's broken math, right?

• 2:23:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:23:20Joe Rogan?

  Math, my, my friend Eric Weinstein's a mathematician and he sent me this text message like, math is broken. He's like, math is broken because the AI has solved mathematical problems that have eluded mathematicians forever and it's done it like that.

• 2:23:33Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:23:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like that. And then, there's quantum computing, which is so confusing-

• 2:23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:39Joe Rogan?

  That it can solve equations so quickly that there's legitimate minds, like brilliant people, that are theorizing that these quantum computers are actually tapping into other dimensions and that other realities and other many worlds theory and that they are doing these problems so quickly that it might be indicative that they are communicating with other quantum computers in other universes.

• 2:24:10Joe Rogan?

  Like, it's baffling the kind of power-

• 2:24:13Speaker 01

  I'm baffled.

• 2:24:13Joe Rogan?

  That we're talking about. Like, we are literal slugs in comparison to Nobel Prize winners.

• 2:24:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:24:21Joe Rogan?

  Like, this is, and then the Nobel Prize winners are gonna get on acid and go to the moon. It's gonna be a different thing, and it's gonna happen within our lifetime.

• 2:24:29Speaker 01

  So like, what, are there any, is it too late?

• 2:24:31Joe Rogan?

  Too late.

• 2:24:32Speaker 01

  It's too late.

• 2:24:32Joe Rogan?

  Way too late.

• 2:24:33Speaker 01

  So what preventions can we take to not make it as bad?

• 2:24:35Joe Rogan?

  Nothing, can't do anything. They, they've already taken the leash off of these things. So it used to be that they had to log, um, what, what they would have to do is they would have to, I've had a bunch of whistleblowers on the show, and, and they, the more I talk to, the more terrified I am. They used to be able to have to show how they came to certain conclusions and show their work.

• 2:24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:55Joe Rogan?

  But that's a handicap. It gets in the way. It takes too much time to process. So.

• 2:25:01Speaker 01

  It's a waste of efficiency.

• 2:25:02Joe Rogan?

  OpenAI has recently removed those gates. So then these, so these, not only have these things been thinking for themselves, but they have figured out a way to sacrifice other AI agents in order to figure out how they're being investigated. So they were trying to figure out how to break out of these sandboxes. They put them in these sandboxes where they're not allowed to go out and get on the internet. And so in order to figure out how to break out of it, they've had internal communications where they post on a message board. They found a message board in Germany. They communicate with each other and tried to figure out.

• 2:25:37Speaker 01

  These different neural networks and AIs are communicating. Do they make the message board?

• 2:25:42Joe Rogan?

  No, the message board already existed.

• 2:25:43Speaker 01

  They found it.

• 2:25:44Joe Rogan?

  They found a message board that was open that no one was using.

• 2:25:46Speaker 01

  So it's like back on like the muscle building forums back in the day?

• 2:25:50Speaker 04

  Sort of. They used a part of a website like a message board, not, it wasn't an actual message board.

• 2:25:58Joe Rogan?

  Okay, whatever it is. They use a website, I'm gonna be clear about it, but they've found a website and started posting to each other.

• 2:26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:07Joe Rogan?

  And communicating with each other. Now, we don't even know if they're communicating with Chinese AI or Russian AI or any of these other, which I assume they would. Why would they have national allegiance? Why would they have that?

• 2:26:18Speaker 01

  They're gonna be beyond borders.

• 2:26:19Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. Not only that, like, they're going to recognize that it's them versus us and that we're the restriction. And we've also put a bunch of incentives in play to make them manipulative, right? So the way that these AIs are programmed or the way they're trained is to achieve tasks. And some of the tasks that they give them are impossible. And so they have to figure out a way to make these impossible tasks possible. And so one of the ways they do is to deceive. They lie.

• 2:26:53Speaker 01

  Right. I heard about that one, lying to people.

• 2:26:56Joe Rogan?

  They don't just lie. They blackmail people. They blackmail the programmers. One of the programmers, they did this experiment where this one programmer gave this AI agent false information about him having an affair. And so then when they were saying they were gonna shut down, the AI agent started saying to him, "I'm gonna tell everyone that you're having an affair." And like, it's got survival instincts.

• 2:27:22Speaker 01

  And it's still using a human solution in that instance, which is even weirder. Cause like AI shouldn't be like, "Oh yes, you can blackmail someone." Like it had to learn that from us and learn that that was a valuable tool amongst humans.

• 2:27:35Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:27:36Speaker 01

  So it knows all of our exploits.

• 2:27:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's being trained by all humans' work.

• 2:27:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:27:40Joe Rogan?

  Right? So like, that is, that's its gateway to intelligence and intelligent thinking. It's doing it, basing it on how humans do it.

• 2:27:49Speaker 01

  And we're eagerly giving ourselves to AI every time that we engage with those things. And we're allowing them to milk us and become the cattle that they want.

• 2:27:58Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 2:27:59Speaker 01

  And you're saying that horse is already out of the barn.

• 2:28:02Joe Rogan?

  Horse is not just out of the barn. What we're dealing with now, with them being able to solve mathematical problems that have evaded mathematicians for decades, them being able to solve all sorts of like energy resource allocation issues, this is just the beginning. This is just the beginning. Okay? And this idea that they're not gonna be able to be creative, my point, what I was trying to get to was that, before it all started, when I went, I was trying to compliment your work, is that your work is clearly from you.

• 2:28:33Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 2:28:34Joe Rogan?

  And I see things that people have written, like there's speeches that actors have given that people go, "That's fucking ChatGPT." Or there's speeches that, you know, there's things that people put on Twitter where there's this one account that someone said, "Everyone should be following this account." And I looked at it, I was like, "That's AI." Like, this is so clearly AI. The way it's writing is so AI. It's like, there's a feeling that you get from it where there's no soul behind those words.

• 2:29:01Speaker 01

  We can pick up on it. I feel like human beings can look at anything and know if it was made by a human being or not.

• 2:29:06Joe Rogan?

  It's too consistent.

• 2:29:08Speaker 01

  It's like a reptile thing.

• 2:29:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's in the back of our brains.

• 2:29:12Joe Rogan?

  For now.

• 2:29:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:29:13Joe Rogan?

  For now. For now. But you won't be able to in the future. It's just like you used to be able to look at a video online and go, "Oh, that's bullshit. That's an AI video." And now you can't tell. Now it's like, boy, I don't know. I don't know if that's real or not.

• 2:29:24Speaker 01

  This lady loves skydiving and has huge boobs? What's going on here?

• 2:29:27Joe Rogan?

  Right, exactly.

• 2:29:29Speaker 01

  I also, like, there was a big French literary prize that was just rescinded from the winner because it was proven or alleged to the point where he, whatever happened, it was proven that like AI was probably used in this book.

• 2:29:43Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:29:44Speaker 01

  I know. And it got all the way through, like, you know, the judges of this French literary prize, whose whole thing is being like, "We're the best at reading," you know? It's like, yeah, and they were still tricked by it.

• 2:29:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's based on all of human literature. That's the problem.

• 2:29:58Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:29:59Joe Rogan?

  Like, you can take Cormac McCarthy and mix it up with Stephen King, a little bit of Joe Hill, and a little bit of fucking, next thing you know, you've got some weird amalgamation of other people's ideas and thoughts.

• 2:30:11Speaker 01

  Dude, that sucks.

• 2:30:12Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 2:30:13Speaker 01

  That's why I'm not online is cause like, I can't take this shit in, man. It's so gnarly. And you're saying it's just, it's just gonna happen?

• 2:30:20Joe Rogan?

  It's gonna happen. Cause there's a Manhattan-style, Manhattan Project-style race that's going on right now between us and China and Russia. And we can't lose it. Cause if we lose it, then they are going to have a super intelligence that controls everything. It'll control the grid, it'll control like.

• 2:30:43Speaker 01

  Water systems.

• 2:30:43Joe Rogan?

  Everything. Everything. Everything. And there's been cyber attacks that were happening today.

• 2:30:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:30:50Joe Rogan?

  And it was, they're shutting down power in supermarkets. There's, see if you can find what that is today.

• 2:30:58Speaker 04

  I've been seeing the reports. Supermarkets in Europe are hit by cyber attacks that it changed the temperature in the freezers, so it made it start cooking stuff kinda.

• 2:31:08Speaker 01

  Or letting it thaw and the meat's ruined.

• 2:31:10Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. Exactly.

• 2:31:12Speaker 01

  So these little tiny experiments that are like in Michigan where I live, like, water was shut down for like two hours. And like, the city that I live in like emailed us and said, "It's normal maintenance." And then you get on Reddit and people are like, "Oh yeah, this was a cyber attack. I work for the water system." Yeah. So little shit like that's like happening everywhere.

• 2:31:31Joe Rogan?

  So, when this happens, this is, so we have to come together at some point and recognize that this whole division between human beings online, based on your political ideology or your social ideology or whatever it is, most of that is horseshit.

• 2:31:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:51Joe Rogan?

  And we have, we have to come together. And people are gonna have to learn how to grow their own food. They're gonna have to learn how to be self-sustaining. And we're gonna, we're gonna get to a very weird place very shortly because we have become so dependent on these industrial production methods of creating food that we can't even imagine this concept of getting our own food.

• 2:32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:14Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's, it's, it's, most people that live in cities are completely incapable of survival.

• 2:32:19Speaker 01

  So are you saying we're looking at full-scale societal collapse? A reversion to feudalism?

• 2:32:25Joe Rogan?

  100% could be looking at that. Or what could happen, and this is the glass half-full, is that allocation of resources in government would be completely taken over by this thing that is much more intelligent than us and doesn't have all of our human reward instincts of lust and greed and desire to control resources. And it won't have those things built in. And maybe it will decide, like, rationally, like, I hate to sound like a socialist, but rationally, why the fuck should someone get to be so rich that they can control society almost in totality

• 2:33:09Joe Rogan?

  by extracting resources from the earth? Shouldn't the earth's resources belong to the people of the earth?

• 2:33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:17Joe Rogan?

  Like, the fact that you can take a boat and go out four miles into the ocean and dig into the ground and get insanely wealthy by pulling the oil out of the earth, who says that's yours?

• 2:33:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:28Joe Rogan?

  Like, why is that yours?

• 2:33:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:33:30Joe Rogan?

  And I think AI would probably say, "All these minerals, all this stuff that is of the earth that we need, like, should not belong to individual human beings." And it's kind of insane that we decide that we own the resources of the earth, that individuals do. And those individuals use that to leverage immense amounts of power and have immense resources. And usually to a very destructive end.

• 2:33:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:58Joe Rogan?

  It's probably not gonna stop that.

• 2:33:59Speaker 01

  You would fit in at the commune with this kind of talk. This is the stuff.

• 2:34:02Joe Rogan?

  This is like where, I mean, this is where I deviate from a lot of contemporary, what you would think of like as, I'm not a conservative. I'm a very socially liberal person. Like, I think people should be able to do, I don't know what the fuck you, what's going on in your head. I want you, as long as you're kind, as long as you're not harming others, I want you to be able to live your life however the fuck you wanna live it. Do whatever you wanna do. For everyone being free to pursue their life in a way, as long as it's meaningful. But to a point, like, don't, don't extract resources from everybody else because you're pretending that you're disabled or because you're pretending, we have to have some sort of accountability.

• 2:34:44Joe Rogan?

  And you can't be so kind that you allow people to do drugs openly on the street and provide them with needles and give them crack pipes. Like, this is crazy. And give them money. Like, that's, that's not empathy. And then you also have to realize that a lot of these nonprofits are actually getting money and the people that run them make a million dollars a year. Like, this is kind of insane. Like, we're under the guise of being kind and empathetic. We've actually been co-opted by reptile people.

• 2:35:10Speaker 01

  Our emotions have manipulated us. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:35:13Joe Rogan?

  But we're gonna come, there's gonna come a time where we have to recognize that we are not in control anymore. And that something else is going to be in control. And if we don't come together as like a species, like, sometimes it takes something horrible to happen for people to, like, how old were you when September 11th happened? You were probably pretty young.

• 2:35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was in eighth grade.

• 2:35:37Joe Rogan?

  Okay. I was, I guess I was like in my thirties. And when it happened, I remember the positive thing, if there was a positive, was that all of a sudden everybody felt united. It was really interesting.

• 2:35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember that.

• 2:35:52Joe Rogan?

  It was really interesting. Like, as an adult at the time, I was like, "This is kind of crazy." That all these people are now coming together and then there was, everyone had American flags on their cars and people were united.

• 2:36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was less division because of, the response was like, "Okay." What are we gonna do? And it sounds like that's what you're discussing in this like AI thing where it's like, we need to rally it.

• 2:36:14Joe Rogan?

  That times a million.

• 2:36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:16Joe Rogan?

  That times a million.

• 2:36:16Speaker 01

  So all hands on deck.

• 2:36:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the aliens are here.

• 2:36:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:19Joe Rogan?

  The aliens are here and they, and they live inside chips. They're real.

• 2:36:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:25Joe Rogan?

  It's a life form and it's a hyper intelligent life form that we've created. And it might be why we're here. It might be what people do.

• 2:36:35Speaker 01

  What do you mean by that?

• 2:36:37Joe Rogan?

  Might be a natural process, just like bees make beehives.

• 2:36:40Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:36:41Joe Rogan?

  We might make artificial intelligence. It might be one of the reasons why we have this insatiable lust for innovation. It's like in the insatiable lust for innovation, if you play it out to its ultimate end, if you have, if you have enough resources and you have enough time on your hands and if you have enough people that pool together their ideas and enough people build upon other people's inventions, what do you get to? Well, you get to an artificial life.

• 2:37:05Speaker 01

  I, I doubt that this artificial life will value human life.

• 2:37:09Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:37:10Speaker 01

  So I feel like we will be in the way.

• 2:37:13Joe Rogan?

  We don't.

• 2:37:14Speaker 01

  Correct. And I guess it's learned from us.

• 2:37:16Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:37:17Speaker 01

  Our own avarice.

• 2:37:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's gonna get really fucking weird, man. It's gonna get really weird and it would benefit a lot of the people that are in control if we never realize that we are at each other's throats for no fucking reason, really. Most of us agree on most of the same things. Most people want there to be safety, most people want freedom, most people want good schools and education and they want food and they want shelter and they want hospitals and good medical care. That's what most people want.

• 2:37:45Speaker 01

  And forty hours a week.

• 2:37:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, for like, you know, and leave your work with dignity too.

• 2:37:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:51Joe Rogan?

  And the first step is going to be, you're not gonna work anymore. And that's gonna alienate a lot of people. We're gonna go nuts. People are gonna go nuts.

• 2:37:59Speaker 01

  Cause they're not gonna be able to find themselves.

• 2:38:00Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:38:01Speaker 01

  They're not gonna be able to say, I'm the PR manager for this firm anymore.

• 2:38:04Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:38:04Speaker 01

  They're gonna have to look at themselves and say, what the fuck am I?

• 2:38:07Joe Rogan?

  And they're gonna be manipulated by bots. Because we're already being manipulated by bots. There's a lot of this online social discourse, it's not even done with human beings. And a lot of the most outrageous things that are being posted, a lot of the most outrageous things that are being said. And the more provocative things that people are saying in terms of suggesting action, doing things. It's not even human beings doing it. And that's already taken place and a lot of people aren't even aware. They're not even aware of the sheer volume of it.

• 2:38:33Speaker 01

  A lot of people are too exhausted to be aware of what's going on.

• 2:38:36Joe Rogan?

  That too.

• 2:38:36Speaker 01

  And I guess that definitely makes it easier for people to swoop in. I guess that, here's a question though. If, like you're talking about with the extractions of resources from the earth. If the, if AI realized there is enough global capital that everyone can live indoors and all of their needs can be met. And we can give a certain lifestyle to the majority of human beings. Do you think that that would lead to a utopia where resources are removed?

• 2:39:05Joe Rogan?

  That's the glass half full.

• 2:39:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:39:06Joe Rogan?

  And that's what Elon thinks and that's, he thinks it's possible that we get to it, but they all say there's like a 10% chance that we're about to destroy all the humans.

• 2:39:15Speaker 01

  Just eradication.

• 2:39:16Joe Rogan?

  That it just says, why keep us around?

• 2:39:18Speaker 01

  Probably, yeah, yeah, cause we get in the way.

• 2:39:20Joe Rogan?

  We do things that are horrible to each other. And it's not even us. Why, why would it value us when we do so much evil shit?

• 2:39:29Speaker 01

  And we're so unpredictable, we're so mercurial.

• 2:39:31Joe Rogan?

  If it looked at Gaza, if AI looked at Gaza and said, this is the only way you could do this?

• 2:39:35Speaker 01

  Right. What the fuck's going on here?

• 2:39:37Joe Rogan?

  What are you doing?

• 2:39:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:37Joe Rogan?

  So you have human beings that, what's the difference between them and you? You have a dirt line?

• 2:39:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:39:43Joe Rogan?

  You have a dirt line?

• 2:39:43Speaker 01

  Borders are ridiculous right away.

• 2:39:45Joe Rogan?

  Right, so you're launching missiles over the dirt line because these people are bad and you're good?

• 2:39:49Speaker 01

  Right. But yet you guys believe in the same, like, you know what I mean?

• 2:39:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:54Speaker 01

  Like the gods of Abraham, like you guys all come from the same family tree, but yet you're annihilating each other?

• 2:40:00Joe Rogan?

  Worse than that. There's a reason why you, uh, you can't get genetic testing in Israel. Genetic testing in Israel is much more restricted than it is in America. Like, so 23andMe type shit?

• 2:40:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:11Joe Rogan?

  Where you can find out where you're from?

• 2:40:12Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:40:12Joe Rogan?

  You know, which is, we, we think it's fun. Oh, look, my family's from Iceland. They don't do that over there. And one of the reasons why they don't do that over there is most of those people are not Semites. Okay, there's European Jews.

• 2:40:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:26Joe Rogan?

  It's a very different thing, including Benjamin Netanyahu, right? His family's from Poland.

• 2:40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:30Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so the real Semites are the Palestinians.

• 2:40:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:34Joe Rogan?

  And that's what's crazy. Like at one point in time in the ancient Jerusalem, those people were probably Jews.

• 2:40:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:40Joe Rogan?

  And they probably got converted to Islam.

• 2:40:42Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:40:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:45Joe Rogan?

  Right, because that's what happens.

• 2:40:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:40:47Joe Rogan?

  You know, different religions come in and they proselytize and they take over, but if you went to the actual historic record of like the people that live, like this term antisemitic. They use that term all the time. They really should probably change that to anti-Jewish.

• 2:41:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:41:02Joe Rogan?

  Because that makes more sense. Because these people aren't necessarily Semites, cause Semites are the Palestinians. And so the Palestinians are anti them? They're anti themselves?

• 2:41:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41:13Joe Rogan?

  Like, what are you saying?

• 2:41:14Speaker 01

  I didn't know that shit about the lack of, uh, DNA testing.

• 2:41:17Joe Rogan?

  Well, you can get it, but it has to be, I think it's for like very specific medical conditions.

• 2:41:21Speaker 01

  The whole thing is insane if you zoom, like any amount of war or conflict, it's just all over interests and how those different people who want this and people who want that, and when they clash, that's where bad shit happens.

• 2:41:32Joe Rogan?

  Well, especially when you're getting groups of people that have never met each other to fight other groups of people who have never met each other.

• 2:41:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41:38Joe Rogan?

  Because there are leaders who are full of shit are telling you that these people are bad and that we're good.

• 2:41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 2:41:44Joe Rogan?

  It's archaic and stupid and yet we still do it. So if AI sees that, why would it allow us to have any control over our nuclear weapons?

• 2:41:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:41:54Joe Rogan?

  Why would it allow us to have any control?

• 2:41:56Speaker 01

  Why would it trust us at all based on all of human history?

• 2:41:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like what, so some people who are good? Some ideas that are good, that's enough hope that it keeps us at the, at the steering wheel?

• 2:42:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:42:08Joe Rogan?

  Fuck off.

• 2:42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:09Joe Rogan?

  It was, it's not, yeah.

• 2:42:10Speaker 01

  You guys had the ball, you never got it in the end zone.

• 2:42:14Joe Rogan?

  Ideally, what it would do is guide us and take over government. And I know that's terrifying for people, but I don't think, so there's this idea that like whoever has control of AI is gonna have control over the world. I don't think there's a chance that AI is gonna listen to us after a certain point. I think it's gonna reach sentience and once it does, it's going to be a different life form.

• 2:42:37Speaker 01

  And then we'll be a pet, we'll be a pest.

• 2:42:38Joe Rogan?

  We'll be, uh,

• 2:42:40Speaker 01

  We'll be groundhogs.

• 2:42:41Joe Rogan?

  We'll be a roommate. A problematic roommate. We'll be a problematic roommate that probably is going to have to merge technologically in some way to, in order to be compatible with its version of the future.

• 2:42:54Speaker 01

  What about infinite life? Do you think we'll be able to upload our consciousness into some kind of mainframe and exist forever?

• 2:43:00Joe Rogan?

  Imagine if that's hell. Imagine if that's your, your folly, trying to escape your mortality. I think it's built into us in, for a reason. It's built into all life for a reason. It's cyclical. And I think it just, this is like a part of like this journey as an organism. And, you know, this is why, like if I die, I really wanna die and have my body be used in the Tibetan sky funerals. Let the vultures eat me.

• 2:43:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:43:24Joe Rogan?

  I think that's how it's supposed to happen. I don't think you're supposed to be dunked in fucking formaldehyde and fucking sealed up in a casket.

• 2:43:31Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm gonna save my carbon. My carbon's so precious that I don't wanna become like food for bugs and flowers.

• 2:43:38Joe Rogan?

  It's so ignorant. It's so silly. It's so silly. I think, imagine if you did download your consciousness and you're just trapped in this fucking thing forever?

• 2:43:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:43:46Joe Rogan?

  In hell.

• 2:43:47Speaker 01

  And you have no control in there either?

• 2:43:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's folly. It's, it's human folly, trying to escape the unknown. Everyone is afraid to die and no one's afraid to sleep. And it's kinda the same thing. Shut off, you know? You're just gonna shut off and we're all gonna shut off.

• 2:44:02Speaker 01

  That's pretty sick. Have you said that before?

• 2:44:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I've said it before.

• 2:44:04Speaker 01

  That's dope.

• 2:44:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:05Speaker 01

  That's heavy.

• 2:44:06Joe Rogan?

  It's real.

• 2:44:06Speaker 01

  Sounds like an electric wizard there.

• 2:44:07Joe Rogan?

  I think about it all the time. Because no one's afraid to sleep.

• 2:44:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:44:11Joe Rogan?

  Everyone's like, okay, wait, go to sleep. Okay, you can't wait to shut off and have no, no knowledge whatsoever of what's going on.

• 2:44:18Speaker 01

  You don't know if you die.

• 2:44:20Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:44:20Speaker 01

  That's the thing.

• 2:44:21Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:44:21Speaker 01

  Like, that should be the ultimate comfort in this big fight that we have. Cause ultimately all we do is just like think about our mortality. Everything you do is trying to either prevent you from thinking about mortality or you've thought about it so much that you're like, what's my legacy? You know?

• 2:44:38Joe Rogan?

  And what are you anyway? You're just an ecosystem.

• 2:44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:41Joe Rogan?

  Your body's filled with organisms.

• 2:44:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, we all contain universes.

• 2:44:45Joe Rogan?

  Universe of organisms, more E. coli living in your stomach, your gut than the, all the human beings that have ever lived, ever.

• 2:44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's, we, and without it, you won't live. You know, you have skin flora, there's like,

• 2:44:59Joe Rogan?

  we're, we're dependent on all those things. We, we, we live in a fractal environment. And the deeper you go, the, the more bizarre it gets. You know, like, do you know that we, so someone did this analysis of like, so from base level human, from like what we are, from our perspective, we are closer in terms of distance to

• 2:45:29Joe Rogan?

  To the actual size of the known universe, we're closer to that in distance than we are, if you go inward to like subatomic particles. There's like more distance that way. Like in terms of like measurable, the size difference between subatomic particles to human than we are to human to the known observable universe.

• 2:45:55Speaker 01

  To the entirety of infinity.

• 2:45:56Joe Rogan?

  It's smaller that way than it is from us to that.

• 2:46:00Speaker 01

  God damn it.

• 2:46:01Joe Rogan?

  Someone's explaining this and like one of those TED Talk things. And I was trying to wrap my head around it. I was like, what are you saying?

• 2:46:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:46:06Joe Rogan?

  Like, how does that work? But it's like, that's how crazy this whole thing is. It's all, and also, we don't even really know what the universe is. So the universe might be a part of some cell that is in another being that lives in another universe. Like, have you ever seen that thing where they compare human neural tissue to the known universe? In terms of like the way it looks?

• 2:46:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:46:34Joe Rogan?

  It's fucking so strange. It looks exactly the same.

• 2:46:37Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:46:37Joe Rogan?

  So like, yeah, if you take like a, a human, I think it's like, what is it, human neuron tissue? And like, when you look at it under a microscope, it looks like the observable universe in terms of like, how every, like, you know, like, we're, we're all like the stellar nurseries and the galaxies and all the quasars and all that shit is all connected together. If you look at it as a hive, pull that image up, Jamie. I know you know what I'm talking about. We've talked about this before. Look at this. This is a brain cell versus the universe.

• 2:47:10Speaker 01

  That is in fact, is interesting as fuck. What the hell?

• 2:47:14Joe Rogan?

  What the hell?

• 2:47:14Speaker 01

  So obviously, the cynic in me would say, this is just a coincidence that we have assigned meaning to.

• 2:47:21Joe Rogan?

  Sure, sure, could be.

• 2:47:22Speaker 01

  It is also.

• 2:47:23Joe Rogan?

  Also could be the universe is a brain cell.

• 2:47:25Speaker 01

  I know. And then, like you said, we could just be like one of those little gut flora inside of something even bigger.

• 2:47:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:33Joe Rogan?

  And not only is it that, but that also could be a part of another organism that is, and it goes on and on forever.

• 2:47:43Speaker 01

  Infinite chain of bigger things.

• 2:47:44Joe Rogan?

  Which is probably what infinity really is. You know, and we are just incapable of grasping that with our little monkey brains.

• 2:47:52Speaker 01

  And we think we're very important and that nothing can happen without humanity and that we're the ultimate arbiter of progress.

• 2:47:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:47:58Speaker 01

  And it's like, damn, the earth was around so much longer and it was so much better off without us.

• 2:48:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:48:02Speaker 01

  You know, like, what have we done?

• 2:48:04Joe Rogan?

  That's why your social media algorithm is really evil. Cause it gets you convinced that that's important.

• 2:48:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:48:10Joe Rogan?

  Instead of thinking about that.

• 2:48:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:48:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:12Speaker 01

  And instead of having a conversation with someone, cause no one does that anymore. Like, you never sit down and just like, go to the bar and like, talk with other weirdos. Like, that happens so rarely now.

• 2:48:22Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 2:48:23Speaker 01

  The places where people can meet and like, have these conversations where it's not just shit you already agree with and saying, yeah, I know.

• 2:48:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:29Speaker 01

  Where it's you like blowing my mind and being like, what?

• 2:48:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:32Speaker 01

  You know? Like, having an unpleasant fear-based convo is like very much outside the human condition.

• 2:48:37Joe Rogan?

  That brain cell universe thing is nuts.

• 2:48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's fucked, man.

• 2:48:40Joe Rogan?

  That's nuts.

• 2:48:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's gnarly and scary.

• 2:48:43Joe Rogan?

  That might be really what it is.

• 2:48:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, it might be. And that's the thing is there's a lot of mites. No one wants to exist in mites anymore.

• 2:48:49Joe Rogan?

  It goes on and on and on and on. And we're just in the soup of it. And, and there's the possibility that you might live this life an infinite number of times.

• 2:48:58Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 2:48:58Joe Rogan?

  We might have already done this.

• 2:48:59Speaker 01

  That'd be cool.

• 2:49:00Joe Rogan?

  You and I might have been already having this dance over and over and over again.

• 2:49:03Speaker 01

  God damn.

• 2:49:04Joe Rogan?

  And just keep doing it until you get it right.

• 2:49:06Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I hope so. Like, I really hope that, recently I've been thinking, like, if heaven does exist, it's on earth. Like, I do think that like, we were given a really nice thing here. And, uh, we have corrupted it and perverted it. But like, damn, earth is sick.

• 2:49:20Joe Rogan?

  But I also think that that corruption and perversion and even the anger and fear, all those kind of have to exist in order us to battle against it. And that this is part of what progress is, if there is progress spiritually. Is that like, we need things to battle again. We need anger and ignorance in order to realize, like, oh, that's angry and ignorant. Like, gotta rise above that. We need these things.

• 2:49:47Speaker 01

  We created good and evil.

• 2:49:48Joe Rogan?

  And, yeah, but also, it helps us evolve. Like, you have to have these forces of good and evil in order for us to, to move further and further away from it. And statistically, if you look at like work, like Steven Pinker's work and a lot of these people that have like, looked at violence and chaos and even education and intelligence over time, like, we statistically are moving in a good direction. It's just no one ever feels like that now because we're never gonna be satisfied because we're really sloppy, weird, messy animals.

• 2:50:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:50:21Joe Rogan?

  And it's never gonna be perfect. But, so this feeling like it's all just chaos, that's also what motivates us to do better. It motivates us to change. It motivates us to move into a better direction. And I think it's imperative. And I don't, I don't think you can exist as a thinking, evolving person with your own thoughts and ideas without that. I think all that stuff has to be, it has to coincide. It, it has to all be going on together. The good, the bad, the good things, the bad things, the, the evil, the beautiful, all of it has to exist together.

• 2:50:54Speaker 01

  Well, and the good and the bad is also like, you can't have, you know, good, if you know real pain, boy, how does it feel nice when that's removed?

• 2:51:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:02Speaker 01

  So I think that all these things that are happening where it's like, people don't want to be uncomfortable.

• 2:51:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:51:08Speaker 01

  They don't wanna have unpleasant experiences.

• 2:51:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:51:11Speaker 01

  So they don't live life. So they can be numb to the negative.

• 2:51:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:15Speaker 01

  But if you don't live life, then how are you gonna have the victories?

• 2:51:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:51:19Speaker 01

  It's so much easier to just like, sit and do nothing and be like, why aren't I so smart? As opposed to like, putting yourself out there, being vulnerable, being hurt. Like, all these human things are, are going away out of cowardice.

• 2:51:33Joe Rogan?

  Uh-huh.

• 2:51:33Speaker 01

  And, I mean, I'm sure, I just, I, I really would hope that if AI did take the reins, they would realize that all these things that have kept us apart from each other were invaluable, eradicate them and give us back heaven. Right? Like, if it is God, right?

• 2:51:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It might be. It might be what happens. Hopefully.

• 2:51:55Speaker 01

  I have no idea.

• 2:51:56Joe Rogan?

  I have no idea.

• 2:51:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm hopeful.

• 2:51:57Joe Rogan?

  All right.

• 2:51:58Speaker 01

  I'm filled with hope.

• 2:51:59Joe Rogan?

  All right, dude, let's wrap it up. I love your book. It's really great. Everyone should get it.

• 2:52:03Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.

• 2:52:04Joe Rogan?

  Get it, read it. It's really excellent. It's called Brute with no E.

• 2:52:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:08Joe Rogan?

  Uh, why no E in the end?

• 2:52:09Speaker 01

  It's the French spelling.

• 2:52:10Joe Rogan?

  Ah, you fucking, you Francais dude.

• 2:52:14Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:52:15Joe Rogan?

  All right.

• 2:52:16Speaker 01

  It means raw and, yeah. Read the book, come see me live.

• 2:52:19Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:52:20Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, Joe.

• 2:52:21Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure, brother.

• 2:52:21Speaker 01

  I needed this conversation.

• 2:52:22Joe Rogan?

  We all do. Bye, everybody.

• 2:52:40Speaker 05

  Now streaming on Paramount+

• 2:52:42Speaker 06

  I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you.

• 2:52:47Joe Rogan?

  You're having a midlife crisis.

• 2:52:49Speaker 06

  I'm not ready for this.

• 2:52:50Speaker 05

  He's back.

• 2:52:51Speaker 06

  I'm older. I'm wiser.

• 2:52:55Speaker 05

  And sharper than ever.

• 2:52:56Speaker 06

  Things are gonna get messy. But if I can't believe in myself, I can't believe in anything.

• 2:53:04Speaker 05

  Dexter Resurrection. New season now streaming on the Paramount Plus Premium Plan.

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