All the Cool Girls Get Fired with Laura Brown and Kristina O'Neill

For anyone who's been fired as f*ck, this episode is for you! We are joined by Laura Brown and Kristina O'Neill, media legends and authors of All the Cool Girls Get Fired, to talk about the painful experience so many of us have experienced. They share their stories of becoming friends, working in media/fashion in NYC in the 2000s, ascending to editors in chief of InStyle and WSJ Magazine, and then being fired from their dream jobs. We discuss how to cope in the immediate aftermath, the importance of telling people and asking for help, and why employers are more empathetic than ever to terminations and resumé gaps. We also talk about networking and leveraging your contacts (even when you're employed), how to figure out your next steps, and why getting fired could end up being the best thing that ever happened to you. Before Laura and Kristina join us, we share our own stories of being fired and how it impacted our lives then and now. Enjoy! Follow All the Cool Girls Get Fired on Instagram @allthecoolgirlsgetfired, and get the book here. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for live show tickets and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at https://rocketmoney.com/gge. Square Space: Get a free trial at https://squarespace.com/GGE and use code GGE for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Quince: Get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order at https://quince.com/gge. Nutrafol: Get $10 off your first order and free shipping at https://nutrafol.com with code GGE10. Winx Health: Get 50% off Winx at Walgreens at https://hellowinx.com/gge. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  But it gives you power. And the important thing to remember is if you lose your job, you don't lose your power. It's only in your head if you do.

• 0:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome back.

• 0:30Rayna Greenberg?

  What do we have to live for now?

• 0:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  The wedding's been over at this point for nine days.

• 0:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. You know, what makes me really sad is thinking that like stuff is gonna end. Like I'm gonna plan something for so long and then like it will happen and be done.

• 0:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well.

• 0:44Rayna Greenberg?

  It makes me sad.

• 0:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're recording this before because we wanted to get ahead so I could take a little time off. So next week, we're gonna recap it in full on the 17th. Everything.

• 0:55Rayna Greenberg?

  With a special guest.

• 0:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  With a special guest.

• 0:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Did we already tell people?

• 0:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think we did.

• 0:59Rayna Greenberg?

  You guys know who the guest is. It's Jaclyn, my wedding planner.

• 1:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  The most important person at the wedding. No, it will be with my husband. Crazy. But yeah, I think this is what a lot of people feel, what I will feel is that like there's been so much leading up to it. I think it goes back to what we talked about. Liz Moody is enjoying the journey so you don't have that crash.

• 1:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, so we'll talk about it next week.

• 1:24Rayna Greenberg?

  We're gonna vote on who had the most main character energy at your wedding. Me, you, or your fiance.

• 1:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Definitely not him. You. You guys, it's out of control.

• 1:32Rayna Greenberg?

  The way I've been acting is crazy.

• 1:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's real crazy. Again, it's just, I don't care because I've always said you can't upstage the bride. You can't even try. Not me. Not a bride like me. Like I'm saying, I am like, I'm a performer. Like it's just, there's no chance. So you do whatever you want.

• 1:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Take your titties out.

• 1:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Just don't, don't wear white.

• 1:54Rayna Greenberg?

  That is crazy that people do that.

• 1:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  But my favorite is when like moms, like mother in laws wear white.

• 2:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Just to troll you?

• 2:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Okay. Well, next week, full recap, we promise.

• 2:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. And we're just gonna thank our partners and we'll jump right in. Thank you to Rocket Money. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at rocketmoney.com/gge. At Squarespace, get a free trial at squarespace.com/gge and use code GGE for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And Quince, get free shipping and 365 day returns on your next order at quince.com/gge.

• 2:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to Nutriful. Get $10 off your first order and free shipping at nutrafol.com with code GGE10. And thank you to Wink's Health. Get 50% off Wink's at Walgreens at hellowink's.com slash GGE. Okay, I do have to say, I'm wearing glasses today, obviously. I had a little bit of a sty scare.

• 2:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Ashley, I got really scared for you. I text you, I was, I pulled my car over. I was like, we need to cancel the wedding.

• 2:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  So if you guys are new around here, I had a chalazion, which is a sty, it's a D1 sty.

• 2:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Megatron sty.

• 2:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Megatron sty for my engagement. And it was a whole thing, and we're not going to reshare the story. But if you know, you know. And honestly, ever since then, I am a little triggered by even the slightest bit of redness, by the slightest bit of discomfort. I'm like, it's happening again. So yesterday, I started to feel something weird when I put my contacts in. Later in the day, I see some redness. Then I saw a lump, but it might have been in my head. And so I freaked out.

• 3:26Rayna Greenberg?

  I was really, I was, I mean, just if it turned into that, you can't get married looking like that.

• 3:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  You can't get married.

• 3:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Listen, you could get engaged looking like that. It's funny. Wear sunglasses. Ha, ha, ha. You can't get, you can't get married.

• 3:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Rayna, you, I would have had to go under the knife, take my eye.

• 3:39Rayna Greenberg?

  No, you, I was like, we're gonna find you the jujitsu voodoo doctor of eye, of eye doctors.

• 3:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  And we had a friend who recently had a really bad sty. That's when I said to you, I was like, what if it looked like so and so? And you go, the wedding, you could not do the wedding.

• 3:52Rayna Greenberg?

  I wouldn't even go to your wedding if it looked like that.

• 3:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  100%, like, literally uninvite everyone.

• 3:58Rayna Greenberg?

  No, if you looked like that, I would go to the wedding. If I looked like that, I wouldn't go to your wedding.

• 4:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  You would be the main character. You would steal the show. You'd be like, Ashley has a sty. Look over here.

• 4:06Rayna Greenberg?

  I might have written the word chalazion in your ceremony.

• 4:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, well, it's over now. It's 10 days ago.

• 4:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, you know about it now.

• 4:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  We have such a fun episode today. So we just wrapped the interview with Laura and Christina. And I think we shared this with them at the, at the top, but I had followed. I think both of them, but Laura for sure for years. She was editor of InStyle. And I remember seeing this post and we didn't fully get into this in the interview. So I wanted to tell you guys, like they they'll share their story about both getting fired. It wasn't like the same day. There was time and space between it, but they went for drinks and they posted this half drunk photo with the caption, "All the cool girls get fired." And that was the beginning of them writing this book called "All the Cool Girls Get Fired", and we'll talk about it today. But I just was thinking, we referenced this Instagram post a couple of times in the interview. We didn't really say what it was and we want you guys to read the book and the photo's in the book and it's really special. And so

• 5:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  just stuff like that, it was like a really impactful, like emotional interview at times because thinking of those moments that are a low that you look back on and you can't imagine your life if they hadn't have happened.

• 5:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I have to give you credit because you you suggested this interview and you sent me the book like a year ago. You sent me the post about the book and I would never have thought to do an episode about getting fired from your job, but it's such a universal experience that pretty much everybody goes through and there's so much shame around it and you're so devastated. But it is this like universal experience we've all we've all been through, which I just said twice in two cents. Imagine if I repeat myself, how short this podcast would be.

• 5:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  You say it all the time and I don't. Think that.

• 5:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Because you're not the soon to me. That's how I know you're not.

• 5:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Because Anna edits it out.

• 5:46Rayna Greenberg?

  My voice notes would be half as long. You sent me a voice note this morning and you go, I just sent you the longest voice note. It was five minutes and I realized I wasn't concise. And then you sent me an eight minute.

• 5:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  See, you would have gotten a 10. So I've never really done this, Raina. I did five full minutes and was like, I can't send this. It's not fair to her.

• 6:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I have deleted voice notes to you only because I will think like I phrased this in a way that could be insulting and then I'm going to have to like send another voice note to explain what I really meant. And that's.

• 6:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  What were you trying to insult me about?

• 6:17Rayna Greenberg?

  I knew you were going to say that. I knew you were going to say that's why I'll send the voice notes. I have nothing to insult you about.

• 6:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, but I when when there's a voice note, and I'm guilty of this too, there are certain voice notes that are so rambly, they're disrespectful of someone's time. Be tighter. Be better.

• 6:34Rayna Greenberg?

  We had this friend send us this voice note and you text me, you go, I gotta be honest, I don't know what that was about.

• 6:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  That was such a long story.

• 6:43Rayna Greenberg?

  It was like a 10 minute story about nothing.

• 6:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Could I while we're here?

• 6:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Nothing. She name dropped eight different people. I was like, what is this about?

• 6:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  So while we're here, so we have had something kind of

• 6:53Rayna Greenberg?

  brewing?

• 6:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  disappointing and some drama with the business we had previously promoted, whatever. And it is, it's a real tale. We've been telling it and people go crazy for it. It's so shocking on so many levels. And we also had, there was some tea about a friend, someone we're really no longer friends with. So we were on the group chat with our other friend and she asked for some tea on the friend situation. And I got my wires crossed and earlier in the conversation, something about the business had come up.

• 7:22Rayna Greenberg?

  I follow, my next text was, I was waiting for Ashley to be on the chain so that she could fill you in. And I said, Ashley, do you want to go or me? And you go, I got this.

• 7:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I tell the seven minute

• 7:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Seven minutes.

• 7:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  voice note story about the business thing.

• 7:37Rayna Greenberg?

  And I'm scrolling through it and going, when is she going to get to this girl? What does this have to do with the girl I want to talk shit on? I'm scroll, I'm at minute six and a half. I'm like, how has she not brought this up yet? I was so confused.

• 7:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I was really proud. I felt like I said it really, I kept it tight. I feel like there were highs and lows and I was like, I said it pretty articulately for me. And I was really proud of it. And then you both write back like, whoa, not the tea we asked for, but that also good. Like our friend was like, nice. I didn't know that was the story that was coming.

• 8:09Rayna Greenberg?

  You were like, nailed it.

• 8:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, like

• 8:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Mic drop.

• 8:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  How did this happen? Wasn't even what I was supposed to be.

• 8:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Honestly though, I'll take tea about anything. I don't care. I'll take tea about people I don't even know. I like tea about people, other people's workplaces. When somebody's like, you don't know these people, I don't care.

• 8:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, and the friend is a specific type of friend who's like a PR fashion type person. And we're talking about a fashion brand. And so I knew she would eat it up.

• 8:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 8:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  So anyway, it was just very funny where I was like, oh, you wanted to hear about so and so? That's Raina's department. I think we both knew who would tell which of the two stories.

• 8:41Rayna Greenberg?

  I really was hoping it would be me, but I didn't want to like scoop you on it if you felt really passionately.

• 8:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I didn't even remember some of the details. I was like, I don't care as much as you do. I do care. I haven't retained as much as you have.

• 8:50Rayna Greenberg?

  I was closer with this girl. So it's more important to me to talk shit on her for not being our friend anymore.

• 8:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. So speaking of firing our friends, no.

• 8:57Rayna Greenberg?

  She fired us, actually. I don't, we didn't do anything.

• 9:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but I was gonna quit.

• 9:01Rayna Greenberg?

  She quiet quit our friendship. She didn't even tell me she was doing it.

• 9:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Sometimes you think you're still friends with somebody and you try to go to Stagecoach with them and they just stop responding to you because they got a boyfriend and they don't wish you happy birthday.

• 9:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know what she did? She got another job completely. Like she transferred jobs while you thought she was still working for you.

• 9:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Right, right. She signed up for a boyfriend and when she got that job, she never spoke to me again.

• 9:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  All right. Well, you heard it here first.

• 9:27Rayna Greenberg?

  If you're listening to this, you know who you are and what you did.

• 9:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Why could our friendship... Anyways, so we have this great interview with these powerhouse women in media and we wanted to just take some time up top because Ashley and I have both been fired from jobs and just talk about our experience. We wanted them to have the floor for the full interview. But we have both been fired as well. So we just wanted to like, talk about how that went.

• 9:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and it's funny, we're like talking about like similar periods of time. Like my story, I think this is 07. I got this job in like 05, I graduated college and I lived in Atlanta and I really got my dream job working at this magazine. Right out of college, I knew I wanted to work there. I had heard about it. I'd seen it, this beautiful glossy magazine, celebs on the cover. It was local, but it was like still a big deal. And this was 05, still a prime time in media, pre-social media, all of that. And so it was my dream to work there. I interned in the events department and at the end of my internship, at the end of the year, I think I interned from like August to December, whatever, the editor wanted to offer me a job in the editorial department

• 10:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  and I became the nightlife editor. I mean, really low pay. I was like scraping by, but I couldn't believe it. I felt like I had the coolest job in the city. I was like, I can't, I'm, I felt so out of my league. I was going out every night, going to all these events. I mean, it was truly a dream because of getting to know the new city I moved to and meeting all these people.

• 10:50Rayna Greenberg?

  What is cooler?

• 10:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but I was also like, I mean, I'm at these open bar events. I was drinking, you know, and that is not why I got fired. That's why you got fired. No, but I just like, loved it so much. But my boss was tough to work for. She wasn't full Miranda Priestly, but there were similarities. Like when I got there, the lore that I had heard was like a year or two prior, her whole editorial staff quit on the same day. They went and they quit in front of her face because they thought she was that terrible. And I became friends with one of those girls years later. I was like, you're a legend. Like she was not well-liked and... The thing with me, which I think we all know at this point is I was never meant to work for anybody. I can't be managed. We've always joked about this. I always knew I needed to be

• 11:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  on my own, but I was smart, skilled, talented, hardworking, all the things. Like, I think I was a real easy hire. And then I had a little attitude about me and I would just act entitled. I was like a bratty 22-year-old. Like, I will own that I wasn't the best employee, even though my work was good. And I was at that job for maybe two years and my boss and I just really started to butt heads. And I was looking for other jobs. We talk about the networking while you're at your job today here in the episode. I was looking for other things, but also like, I was reaching out to PR companies and they're like, "We can't hire you from there." You know, like, "We work with you." Like, it was just kind of a weird vibe. And I was like, "The money's not good." And she was just really riding me. She was like purposely making my life hell. That just like, last minute, you have to go to this event. Like, my weekends were not my

• 12:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  own anymore. Like, she really was becoming really controlling. And I was like, "I just don't think I can do this anymore." So I had a meeting set with her. I was working from home that day. It was a 5:00 PM meeting. And I was gonna go in there and, I mean, my plan was like, "Maybe I will quit. I feel ready to go, but I need more money. Something has to give." Like, we are clearly like at odds. And I had that meeting planned. And for days, I'd been transferring a bunch of contacts. I mean, I was young and stupid. I was just forwarding all my emails to like my personal Gmail. That's the first time I set up a Gmail was specifically to do this, instead of my college Gmail. I'm forwarding tons, dozens, hundreds of emails. Like, I had so many contacts. And the day I'm supposed to go in there, maybe we're like midday, I was supposed to meet her at 5:00 PM, my email started glitching. And my friends were in the

• 13:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  office. Like, they, my friends were like in the office with her, with the editor in chief. And they were texting me like she's flipping out. She like has talked to tech support. She knows you're forwarding all these emails. And she's like running around the office, "Cut Ashley's email off. Cut Ashley's email off." Like, literally, we can hear her on the phone. She's like crashing out. And I'm like, "What are you saying to me?" And so I was like, "I don't know what's happening. I don't know what's about to happen." And sure enough, I got an email and it was, "You're fired. Do not come back here."

• 13:29Rayna Greenberg?

  You got fired by email? She didn't even have the courtesy to be like, well, I mean, there's no courtesy. You're acting kind of a little shady. She was like, fuck her.

• 13:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  It was an email or it was not a phone call. It was an email or a text and I can't remember if the I'm sure it was an email.

• 13:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 13:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it was very like, your time here is done. Very curt. And I was stunned. Like, I remember taking a walk and just trudging, like, what just happened? I just felt like in a daze. I mean, I called my parents and again, I was like, ready to leave. Like, I might have left that day, but it wasn't on my terms. And I was having those thoughts of who am I without this job? It was a badge of honor. I remember having the business cards. I was like, I'm such a baddie to have this job. And I will say that weekend, I had the first feeling of I am free. I can do whatever I want. Every weekend had been dominated by that job since I had gotten it, since I moved to Atlanta, quite honestly.

• 14:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I'm not on call for this magazine. And I just felt this sense of freedom. And I definitely felt panicked about what was next, of course, but I did ultimately feel a sense of relief. And I had to keep reminding myself, like, I wanted to leave anyway. But it was tough to have it happen like that. It was a blow to my ego.

• 14:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Also, you, it's like, how do I explain this to the next employer?

• 14:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it was not, it certainly was like, she's not giving me a referral.

• 14:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 14:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I had some freelance work already. I was doing like, you know, a little bit of something to fall back on. Don't get it twisted. I struggled then. I struggled for years after, but, you know, maybe enough to pay my rent. So I wasn't just like, I'm on the streets. But, you know, the next few years were a struggle. As I started to try to figure out what to do, I did have a connection I made through that job that I did some freelance stuff for this designer and then I worked in PR. And I was able to use the connections I made from the magazine. I'm just eternally grateful. And seeing her name was triggering for so long. Like, I just, she felt like... The devil to me. Like, it was so, I couldn't see her name. Like, I would, it would pop up someplace and she was everywhere. And then I remember being out at an event and I saw her and we talked, and I think I even sat extorted at that years later. And then I was checking

• 15:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  my email earlier, trying to find that email, and I got fired. And I saw an email from her, and I jogged my memory. She emailed me in 2010, three years later, asking if I wanted to freelance. You know, like, we're fine, and I'm grateful she took a chance on me at 22 years old, and that was still such a wonderful experience. But that feeling is just like, who, who am I? And really briefly, and then give right to the floor. But my other experience, and I talk about this a little bit with Laura and Christina, is I got another dream job, which was the Atlanta editor of this online publication called Daily Candy. It was a dream in every way. It was nothing but a positive experience for three plus years. It made me a better writer. I, it changed who I am. I'm so grateful for

• 16:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  it. And I got that job in a really dark time in 2011, and it just, I feel like it really changed my life. And then in three years later, three plus years later, the company got shut down, or it got bought, or whatever, and all the local editors got fired. And it was so crushing. But I, and I say this later, so I don't want to be too repetitive, but I never would have left the job. And you'll talk about your experience, too. And that's what made me focus on my blog, which I already had, of course, but really be like, this is all I got, and I have to really focus on this. And 2014 was the year when my blog really took off, when I started Bros Being Basic, when my, I feel like my career started to happen for me. Things really popped off. And I started making actual money I could save and not living paycheck to paycheck. And I just wouldn't have left that job. And

• 17:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  I may, may have never done all those things.

• 17:06Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just, it's scary to go out in the world. It's scary to like, apply for jobs, and like, you just think like, what, maybe it really, maybe the grass really isn't greener. Like, that's foolish to think that. And maybe, you know, there isn't more money or more opportunity. And so people just get really comfy. And to be just like, unceremoniously just kicked out the door is sometimes the only way that you'll move on.

• 17:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I understand I'm a little different. You know, my story's not the same as everybody, and I feel for anybody, no matter what. But these points, it's like, I always kind of knew I needed to be on my own. It was just the kick in the ass that I needed.

• 17:36Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I don't think at our age, when we got out of college, there weren't so many avenues to go be on your own. You know what I mean? Like, people have blogs, I guess. But that was like, the very early stages. It was like, Could you make a real living having a blog? Like, what is the number one thing people want to do coming out of college days? Be an influencer or an OnlyFans model? Like, it's, that was not an option back then. How could you even have thought to like be out on your own unless someone forced you?

• 18:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly, yeah. I mean, I knew. I just was like, I'm bad at working for people. Yeah, like, I'm just, I just knew it. I'm like, I'm my father's daughter and he, I'd always heard his story of the same type of thing. I know I need to have my own business and I always knew the writing was on the wall. I remember having my first blog when I was working at that PR company and I was writing about sex and getting drunk. And they're like, you can't do that. What are you doing? And I'm like, what are you doing? I'm trying to make it out here. I got my side hustle. They're like, yeah, but you represent the March of Dimes. You can't be writing about.

• 18:33Rayna Greenberg?

  And you're like, then don't read it, okay? If you have a problem with it, then don't go to the website. No one's making you go to that website.

• 18:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it was crazy because I would be like, this is Facebook times. I'd be promoting my slutty blog and at the same time being like, come out to the March of Dimes dinner. This, whatever, charity dinner. Anyway, so let's hear yours.

• 18:54Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, I sort of have two and I'll try to truncate the other one. But I, I got fired from a restaurant job. I got really managed out of Amazon. They were going to get me out of there. But I was in very different positions when those things happened. I got managed out of Amazon. I had a lot of money in the bank account. I had a full resume. I had tons of contacts. I knew a lot of people in New York. I had already started the food blog, which is how I would find you. And I had this side hustle that I was excited to start doing. You know, when they kind of kicked me in the ass out the door, I had all these other things that I could at least fall back on. But I got fired from a restaurant job when I was 23 and I was managing this restaurant. I mean, it's called Quality Meats. We dinner there recently. It's a huge restaurant group.

• 19:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  You guys are Gucci now.

• 19:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I mean, we're good now. It's a, it's a huge restaurant group. They own Quality Italian, Quality Eats. I mean, it's a huge, really famous, well-known restaurant group. And I was 23, I had no business managing there. It was one of the highest grossing restaurants in the country. I had no experience. I should have been there to begin with, but I had gotten hired there. And the environment there at the time, I will say, is that like management drank all the time. I was always walking around with a glass of wine, sitting at people's tables, schmoozing, buy a glass. I mean, that was the environment at the company at the time.

• 20:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I mean, I've only had restaurant jobs where I would be drinking, but I didn't work in a place like you. But like, I don't know, it's, it's not such, it's not just like such a crime.

• 20:16Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm setting the stage. So the managers would walk around, my GM, all my other managers with a glass of wine, go to people's tables, sit down, schmooze, whatever. So there was an incident where another manager was fired for being like grossly drunk on the job. And so I guess the vibes changed and I wasn't, you know, I didn't tap into those vibes. You're 23. I was like, I'm not stumbling drunk. I'm walking around with a, I'm holding, I'm, I'm only having sex in the private dining room with the bartender.

• 20:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  But how can you hire young twenties millennials in the early 2000s and expect us to stay sober? I was blacked out at those events.

• 20:49Rayna Greenberg?

  That restaurant was three stories high, pitch black, so loud, so sexy, top like three story high steakhouse, New York City. I mean, it was sexy. Who was not drunk?

• 21:00Rayna Greenberg?

  And I mean, truly, this is what, this is maybe the worst week of my entire life. I caught my boyfriend, who I was living with, cheating on me for the second time. I threw him out of our apartment, which I could not afford on my own. And I'm like dealing with like money issues and him. And then I went to work one night, I think a week later, and it was the end of my shift, it was like 10:00 PM. And I popped into my boss's office and I think I like drank out of the bottle that he had there and I was walking around, whatever. I don't remember even how people knew, but one of the newer managers there, who probably was aware that I do business working there at that point, went to the corporate office and told on me. And she basically turned me in for drinking on the job. And I went to work the next day and the GM, who I was very close with, who really, I'll talk about it later, but did me a solid. He said, were you, take a walk with me or were you drinking last night?

• 21:44Rayna Greenberg?

  And I said, yeah, I was drinking last night. I was drinking every night. And I remember.

• 21:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Were you drinking last night?

• 21:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, weren't you? And he goes, I have to fire you. And I was like, what?

• 21:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  I can't even, like, it just sends a chill down my spine. Like, you're like, wait, no, shut up. This is a joke.

• 21:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I know. I was like, are we gonna go like Kiki in the bed? What are you talking about? And he was like, I'm, he was like, I wish you would have lied to me, honestly. And I was like, why would I lie to you? Everyone drinks here. And he was like, but that other person was just fired for this. And now the environment is not that you can just be like.

• 22:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, right. Cause, okay.

• 22:11Rayna Greenberg?

  And I was just like, you can't do this to me. I, I don't have, I can't afford my apartment that I'm living in. I just divided my income in half and now you're, now I have no income. And he was like, I don't, and he was like, listen, don't, you don't have to tell anybody you got fired. Like you. He and I were really close. He was like, you can put on your resume that you left and I will back you up. But you don't work here anymore. And I had to like go back into the restaurant, collect my things. And I'd already shown up for my shift. It was so fucking humiliating. This was November. It was a couple of days before Thanksgiving. It was just like dark out. Everyone's going home for the holidays. I had to go home. I have no boyfriend. I have no money. I have no job. It was so humiliating. Everyone's like celebrating. I didn't even know what I blacked out.

• 22:51Rayna Greenberg?

  I think I told Melanie that might have been the only person I told. I didn't tell my family. I could not like go home for the holidays and be like, I lost everything.

• 23:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 23:00Rayna Greenberg?

  It was so humiliating. And I mean, I look back now. I mean, it's the catalyst for everything. I never would have applied for the next job and met my fiance. And I will talk about this during the episode, but like, to what you said, I probably wouldn't have left. I had a cushy job. I ate well. I drank well. My friends would come in for dinner. We'd comp everybody. Everybody I knew would just come in. It was like a party every night. I made a lot of money for being a restaurant manager. I just wouldn't have left. But I really wanted to be in like a chef-driven culinary scene. I wanted to work for a big, big restaurant. I always wanted to work for Danny Meyer. I never would have the balls to apply there. And my dad, who owns a headlining company, was just like, just cold apply. Just send, decide everywhere you want to work and just email those people.

• 23:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 23:41Rayna Greenberg?

  And I just had all the time in the world, so I did that. But like, there was so much shame around it. I didn't know how to like, tell people I'd lost my job. I didn't know how to talk about it in interviews. It just, I mean, it was horrible.

• 23:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it is. Your story is, again, we're talking, I feel like we're talking about stuff that feels like the dark ages at this point in 2025. You know, I'm talking about oh five, you're talking about oh eight, you know, whatever, oh ten, children ten.

• 24:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh ten.

• 24:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, oh ten. But your story is tough. Like, they weren't like doing massive layoffs. Like you got fired from a restaurant.

• 24:11Rayna Greenberg?

  I got fired.

• 24:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like it wasn't like Amazon is restructuring. You know, like I think you really, when you work for a big corporate company, you have the liberty to say whatever. I mean, I guess you don't want to lie, but these things happen. But a restaurant manager, some shit went down. You fucked somebody, you drank, you know, so it was so nice that your manager was like, I'm not telling anybody if you don't.

• 24:33Rayna Greenberg?

  He was, I mean, I'm so grateful for him. His name is Mauricio. He just really did me a solid. I don't know what I would have done if like people really dug into that. I got fired for drinking. Like, you're not gonna hire a person like that into a restaurant space where they have all the access in the world to more alcohol.

• 24:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, and like, you're like, but it was just this small thing, everybody did it, and they're like, yeah, we don't care. That's, you got fired for it. So it was probably deeper than that, even though it wasn't.

• 25:00Rayna Greenberg?

  But like, yeah, to your point, yeah, if they could hire me or somebody else, they're not gonna hire the person that got fired for drinking.

• 25:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 25:05Rayna Greenberg?

  The restaurant industry is so small. And when this happened to me again at Amazon, it was just, it was such a different experience. I had started the food blog, which was One Hungry Jew, which is how I met you. But Amazon just didn't really fuck with the fact that I had an outside job.

• 25:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 25:20Rayna Greenberg?

  And they're welcome to, every company can have whatever parameters they want. They sort of were just like, you're representing this company and this company only. And they didn't love that I had this other thing.

• 25:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, you didn't really drink the Kool-Aid.

• 25:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 25:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  You didn't really play ball. And as it turns out, you're meant to be a business owner. You know, like, you didn't buy in the way that you were supposed to. And they felt that.

• 25:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, they made sure it was not a nice environment for me. And I wasn't used to that. I've always been in environments where I was like, the most popular, the most well-liked. I always was so kind to everybody. I had tons of friends. I didn't really have a lot of friends there. It wasn't a great environment for me. There was a great environment for other people, but I didn't care for it. But really different experience when you have like, money and a resume, and you're like, I'll go do this other thing. But I also, I don't know that I would have left there necessarily either, because it was like, I made a lot of money. It was so cushy and easy. And if that hadn't happened, I never would have met you. I mean, I feel sick to think like, if that's the path I would have taken.

• 26:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know.

• 26:17Rayna Greenberg?

  And we'll talk to Laura and Christina about like, what the next steps are. But like, as soon as I was managed out of Amazon, I was never fired. I did leave, but I was gonna be, it was imminent. I got an offer to go work for Resi, the reservation company, and they were gonna make me, I think like, the Man, the head of Northeast Sales or something. And I thought like, I could take this job and I could have a corporate job at an amazing company with people I really liked. I knew somebody who worked there. And I just thought like, I'm gonna just bet on myself for like, a little bit of time.

• 26:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 26:49Rayna Greenberg?

  And I turned down like, a huge salary from them and they're a great company in the restaurant industry too. And I just was like, let me just see if I can do this. Like, let me see if I can take this food blog and make it a thing. And around the same time, I got my first deal from Postmates to like, post a social media post. And it was like, I don't know, a thousand bucks or 500 bucks. And I was like, I think I might be able to do this.

• 27:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:10Rayna Greenberg?

  And if I had taken that job at Resy, I mean, that just sort of would have been the end of that.

• 27:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. That like, jogged my memory. I don't remember what year this was. I mean, 2014, probably. And I got a full-blown offer to be a radio personality on this radio station. It was with a big radio conglomerate. I think it was Cox. And it was like, a new station. They had me go in and run the boards for the day. And I was gonna be like, a radio personality. Like, I had done, dabbled in radio. And I was like, I can't believe they might hire me for this. This is crazy. Like, I, this was all, I, when I, I remember moving to Atlanta and it was still like, a radio age. I just thought those people were like, so cool. The morning show and all that stuff. And I was gonna have that. I was gonna be like, the main girl. And I remember, the money wasn't like, quite right, which I thank God. Cause I don't know,

• 27:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  a bigger number. I wasn't making much.

• 28:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 28:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I just remember like, what, something's not right here. Like, this should be like, my dream job. You know, I'm good at this. I had so much fun when I was in there and just like, doing the radio and playing the music and things like that. And I was like, something's like, not right. And I like, knew it. I was like, this will take all my time. I might have to go do live remotes on the weekends sometimes. Like, this will be it. I'll be branded with the station. Like, I will be Ashley from this radio station and not Ashley from like, this thing I'm building with my blog. And this was before, I think, Bros being Basic. So, it must have been 2014. And I turned it down. And I think they were shocked. Who would turn that down? You get to be like, a radio?

• 28:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Who, literally who would turn that down?

• 28:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 28:43Rayna Greenberg?

  And like, we're talking about, again, like, the dark ages. Like, I decided to bet on myself for social media. No one was making money in social media. I mean, this was like nine years ago.

• 28:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was.

• 28:54Rayna Greenberg?

  There weren't like, but for the blog also, I knew you were making money, but there weren't a million examples of people that had taken a blog and turned it into a viral sensation and then built this giant Instagram presence. It didn't happen. Like today, there's too many examples of that and everybody does that. But like you and I were like, I guess I'll just see.

• 29:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. It's interesting. You and I both have that similar story of this other offer that also is a testament to us. Like we built our connections and our community to get those offers too. We made a good name for ourselves and then we had to be like, no, I think I want to be this other thing. And, you know, we really love this interview today and they have such incredible advice and they share their stories, but we do just want to acknowledge that it is hard out here. This is a tough time. So many people have lost their jobs and it's just a really bleak moment in, in history and it hasn't been great for a while, but especially with just the current landscape and the government and everything. It's just, it's a tough time. It's not so easy to get a job. You know, we know so many brilliant,

• 29:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  capable people that are struggling, that are unemployed and trying to find a job or just trying to leave their current job. And we just want to acknowledge how tough it is and how it is different than oh five or 2010 or 2015 or whatever it may be. But still, there's just a lot of global evergreen inspiring advice in the conversation.

• 30:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. I like to talk about it in a positive way and the things that came out of it. But like, you know, when I left Amazon, I had a baked in job I could go do. But when I lost that job at Quality Meats, there was like six months of me being on unemployment and having to call my dad and be like, can you just send me $200? Like I can't cover the rent. I was eating so little. I was eating like miso soup and rice every day from like the Japanese restaurant next door. I couldn't even afford like a subway card. I went to the library to take out books. Like it was winter time. It was cold. It was fucking bleak. I wasn't like running around, having fun. I had zero funds. I think I got $400 in unemployment a week. I couldn't afford, I lived on $1600 a month in New York City.

• 30:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 30:59Rayna Greenberg?

  It was the lowest time of my life. You just, you hate yourself. You're so disappointed. Everybody around you is doing cool fun stuff. And it's just in those moments, I, I know that you don't want to hear like it will get better, but like it will get better. Like it just, I promise you, it's you, I can only look at my life through the lens of history now, but you do think in those moments, like how, how am I ever going to climb out of this? And it sucked and I'm, I'm not really grateful for the experience. It was really bad, but good things came from it.

• 31:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Move to LA. No one has a job here.

• 31:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. You can live on the beach. No one expects you out. No, you date has a job. If you're a guy.

• 31:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Don't live in New York where everyone's just.

• 31:37Rayna Greenberg?

  I know. Exactly. That's a tough place to be unemployed. Oof.

• 31:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Fuck. I was taking the bus. I just took the bus everywhere. Okay. Well, those are our stories. And again, we're just really excited for you guys to hear this episode. Just going to talk about a few partners and we will get into it.

• 31:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. So as it's starting to get cold, there is no better time to go on the Quince website and just shop around, see what they have. Ashley and I love them all year round. And really as the holidays come, it's time for all these parties coming up and gifting. Quince delivers layers that last. So they have sweaters, outerwear, everyday essentials that feel luxurious and the pricing could not be better. I cannot believe the quality. So I just got this Neoprene duffel bag, actually. Taylor Strecker and Taylor Donoghue, who we will have on the show soon. I saw them with it and I was like, what is that? It looks so high end. And they were like, it's from Quince.

• 32:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my God, that bag.

• 32:26Rayna Greenberg?

  And I immediately went on and bought it. Ashley and I love the Mongolian cashmere sweaters and I've had them for years now at this point, and they have stood the test of time. They have them in every color. If you want a cardigan, some kind of button down, if you want a crew neck, if you want a turtleneck, all the Mongolian cashmere that they have, just every color. Ashley and I wear them all winter long.

• 32:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, my favorite travel outfit, I'm saying it here first, that I've ever worn, all these years of traveling, I finally found it. I finally figured it out. It is the Quince super soft fleece wide leg pant. And there's different tops in that same super soft fleece, but I did a crew neck. And that's what I wore when I flew to Vegas and in some videos that I posted, but and at the bar, the chandelier bar. But it's so comfy. Like I don't want to fly in leggings anymore. Nothing restricting. And it's not a full sweat pant. Rain and I don't like, like sweat pants, sweat pants. We just can't pull them off.

• 33:13Rayna Greenberg?

  They have them on Quince, but this outfit that you were wearing, it looked, I walked into the lounge and I was like, what set is that? That is so good.

• 33:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Such a good set.

• 33:19Rayna Greenberg?

  So you guys will love it. And truly they offer prices 50% less than similar brands. I can't, I don't know what they're doing over at Quince, but they're doing a great job. So buy yourself a gift, buy someone else a gift.

• 33:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  We joke about how they sell everything.

• 33:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Actually sent me a Christmas tree.

• 33:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was on Quince and I was like, do they really need to sell Christmas trees? It's a one stop shop. Get your Christmas tree on Quince.

• 33:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, my first Christmas tree. I'll get it there. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished, and last from Quince. Perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com/gge for free shipping on your orders and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash G G E to get free shipping and 365 day returns. That is quince.com slash G G.

• 34:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, and NutraFol, I could not imagine my life without NutraFol. This is going to be perfect for you if you are experiencing any sort of hair thinning, shedding, hair issues really at all. NutraFol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. I've been taking it for years. I take the women's formula, four capsules daily. I have my little pill case, so I never skip a day. It's labeled Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And there are different formulas. You guys can go on the website and see which one's going to work for you. So again, I'm with the women's, but there's women's vegan, women's balance, postpartum. Obviously, anything to deal with, pregnancy, postpartum, hormones can really affect your hair. And I feel like our hair is just such a thing that affects our confidence and how we feel like we look and feel about ourselves.

• 34:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  And so if you're experiencing any sort of issues, this can really be what you can turn to. They have a proactive approach. They'll target the root cause and it is a clinically tested formula. Of course, I have also noticed such a difference in my nails. I mean, my nails are stronger than ever. I can't even believe it. I can't believe these aren't fake nails. And I really attribute NutraFol with that. And my hair, I just really have gotten it back to a good place. And so we just think it's so great to use and add into your daily routine. Purchase online, no prescription required, automated deliveries, free shipping. They make it super, super easy. So you're never without it. So you guys can check it out, see thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with NutraFol. For a limited time, NutraFol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to nutrafol.com and enter the promo code G G E 10.

• 35:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Find out why NutraFol is the best selling hair growth supplement brand at nutrafol.com, spelled N U T R A F O L dot com, promo code G G E 10. That's nutrafol.com promo code G G E 10.

• 35:41Rayna Greenberg?

  And this podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and exceed online. So whether you're just starting out managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience and sell anything from products to content. To time all in one place. I have to tell you something so funny that I don't know if this is gonna make you laugh. Do you know that I did not own Rena Greenberg? Like, like the, the domain rena greenberg.com. So I just bought it. You did? Yeah. I bought it through Squarespace. You got any plans for it? Yeah. We'll see. Yeah, okay, I do. Well, I didn't know why you would have had it, is my question. I think it's interesting to be somebody with a large platform. You should have it. Not own the domain of your name. So no, you were able to get it? I got it. Rena! I couldn't believe it. Huge!

• 36:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Huge get. And there is another Rena Greenberg who is like this Yeah. baddie in New York. We're friends. She's the same age as me. She works in PR. I can't believe she didn't scoop it. So I bought the domain through Squarespace. Oh my god. Immediately, it's like, what, what's your website for? What's the vibe you're looking for? What's the vibe? If you guys are like, I don't have the first idea how to build a website. Squarespace's AI tools will take care of that. It is beautiful. They'll help you import whatever type of designs, photos, copy that you want. And they're just gonna make it simple to take payments, no matter what you do. And Ashley and I have run our websites on Squarespace for years. So Ashley's touring website is on Squarespace, Girls Gotta Eat as well. And on the Girls Gotta Eat site, we have every episode we've ever done. We have all of our partners. We have our merch. Everything is done through Squarespace. And so we can't

• 37:07Rayna Greenberg?

  recommend it enough. You guys can head to Squarespace.com/GGE for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use GGE to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Okay, let's get into it. All right, guys, we are very excited to welcome two amazing women to the show today. Our first guest is the founder of LB Media. And previously, she was editor in chief of InStyle, executive editor of Harper's Bazaar, and senior editor at W. She is here with her co-author of their new book, the head of Sotheby's Media, and editor in chief of Sotheby's Magazine. Previously, she served as editor in chief of Wall Street Journal Magazine, executive editor at Harper's Bazaar. Together, they are the authors of the new book, All the Cool Girls Get Fired. Please welcome to the show Laura Brown and Christina O'Neil.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  Whoa!

• 37:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Thank you. Welcome.

• 37:52Speaker 00

  That was such a powerful and multi-syllabic resume.

• 37:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Did I? Okay, so this is your

• 37:56Speaker 00

  That was incredible.

• 37:57Rayna Greenberg?

  This is your second in-person interview after Oprah? Did we, did I do better than Oprah?

• 38:01Speaker 00

  On a timestamp, yes. You are the most efficient resume reader of all time, so yes. You could do one breath diving with that. Just saying.

• 38:10Rayna Greenberg?

  I get so excited to like write these intros. You both are such amazing women. I mean, what you've done in media is unbelievable.

• 38:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I've followed you for years and your career and growing up, all everyone to do was work for a magazine and the whole thing. Like, I loved reading your stories. The beginning of the book is my personal favorite because it's your stories.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  Our origin story.

• 38:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I saw the book and the post you guys posted, what, a year or so ago?

• 38:35Speaker 00

  The getting fired post?

• 38:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Probably whatever this was. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is brilliant. This is true. All the cool girls do get fired. And I told Raina, we have to have them on. And then we just had to wait till the book was done. We had friends to write the book.

• 38:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, it took ages. Actually, we were fast, but it's hard as a whole.

• 38:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  You turned it in early? What a flex.

• 38:57Rayna Greenberg?

  We're overachievers.

• 38:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that.

• 38:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like type A plus.

• 39:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's amazing.

• 39:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, we really sought you out. I emailed Simon and Schuster like a year ago and they were like, can you relax?

• 39:09Speaker 00

  They're like, can we get Kamala Harris out for a minute and then we'll get to you?

• 39:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  We almost had Kamala, then she did Call Her Daddy instead. It's okay.

• 39:17Rayna Greenberg?

  We've almost had Kamala twice. Anyways, welcome.

• 39:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Congrats on the book.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 39:23Rayna Greenberg?

  And we love the book and as two girlies who were formerly also fired as fuck.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 39:28Rayna Greenberg?

  We loved it.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  Sorry, I think it's really important.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  F A F.

• 39:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Fafing.

• 39:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, that'll be the sequel.

• 39:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Fuck around and find out.

• 39:39Rayna Greenberg?

  So let's talk about your origin story. You're both these incredible like powerhouse women in media. How did you meet? What happened?

• 39:47Speaker 03

  Do you, yeah. We fittingly met at a fashion show because that's where all good girls in fashion meet.

• 39:53Speaker 00

  So all like youthful fashion obsessives meet.

• 39:56Speaker 03

  So we met the night before nine 11 at the Marc Jacobs show that was this epic, amazing. It would have gone down in history either way, but the fact that it was the night before nine 11, I think really crystallized in everyone's mind just how much the world had changed.

• 40:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 40:12Speaker 03

  In 12 hours. So I met Laura Brown. We had a mutual friend who was sort of, I think you snuck into the show. Is that true?

• 40:20Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  You were always destined to get fired.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  I was like, I know I'm a kiss of death. No, I'd been in New York for six days. I'd moved from Sydney and I was dazzled.

• 40:34Speaker 00

  And I was staying with my friend Libby Calloway, who at the time was the fashion editor of New York Post. And I'd met her in Australia and we became sort of instant besties. So I'd been there for six days and she somehow, and this Marc Jacobs show, I mean, he's still the thing, but he was the thing.

• 40:48Speaker 03

  Totally, a hundred percent.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  It was like on a pier and everyone was famous. But Libby somehow had had snuck me in and I was like on stalks. Like it was like Sex and the City, Sarah just got all his shit over there. Chris, like, like supermodels over here and champagne everywhere. And everything was grapes. There was grapes everywhere.

• 41:06Speaker 03

  Lots of grapes.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  It was like ancient Greece, but like

• 41:08Speaker 03

  The nostalgia.

• 41:09Speaker 00

  2001. And I was just walking around tottering probably on some sort of stupid shoe. And my friend Libby came up and Christina was sort of sitting down somewhere at a, I call it

• 41:20Speaker 03

  At the grapes table.

• 41:21Speaker 00

  Grape table. And, and she went, Laura, this is Christina. And I went, oh, I met her. And our first impressions of each other were.

• 41:29Speaker 03

  She talked a lot.

• 41:32Speaker 00

  She thought I talked a lot and I thought she was judging me and this has not changed. This is completely the same 24 years later. So we like met then and then obviously it was a very particular time in history in 2001. But I don't know how often we socialized in and then between.

• 41:48Speaker 03

  We would like see each other at events and sort of on the like fashion shows circuit. You eventually started working at Details.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  But then cut to.

• 41:56Speaker 03

  W Magazine.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, Details W, whatever. And then cut to Valentine's Day, 2005.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  Laura Brown started at Harper's Bazaar where I had been.

• 42:05Speaker 00

  Ensconced.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  Ensconced. I had actually been working there when we met at the Marc Jacobs show. So I had already been there for about five years and Laura came in and just, you know, I think that was like when everything sort of clicked with the team.

• 42:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:19Speaker 03

  The boss who hired Laura was someone who inherited me.

• 42:24Speaker 03

  So she sort of had brought in her own team and it kind of took a minute for her to like, get the right people around her. But once Laura came in, we were sort of like off to the races. It became really fun.

• 42:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know we're going to talk about the getting fired today, but I could sit here and talk to you guys for hours just about working in media and magazines at that time.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  In the 2000s.

• 42:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, I mean, and I say like, the world was just different pre nine 11. You guys met the literal night before, but just the 90s, late 90s, early 2000s, like, really, what a time.

• 42:54Speaker 03

  It was a fun time.

• 42:55Speaker 00

  And, you know, because when I started there, 2005, I would have been, I think, 31 or something. You would have been 29 or about 30. And you're at that age where you're just everywhere.

• 43:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  You'd have a drinks, then a drinks, then you'd have a dinner. You know what I mean? One night, and we were just hurtling our asses around, around New York City.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Energy.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  We were so overexcited.

• 43:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  I had no money. You have so much energy. My clothing was from Forever 21. I didn't give a shit. I was everywhere with the money.

• 43:23Speaker 03

  Borrowing things from the fashion closet.

• 43:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, you're on adrenaline.

• 43:28Speaker 03

  Wear it, return it.

• 43:29Speaker 00

  And then you'd get invited to a fashion show and you'd be in like row E or F or G or whatever the alphabet goes to, what is the 27th letter of the alphabet. But you were just like, yeah.

• 43:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 43:38Speaker 00

  And we were just so overstimulated all the time. And we'd have a little girl gang and we'd go out and like, I would always be nana home early, but everyone would go out on the wine and end up at like, the double seven or all these meatpacking clubs that were the thing. And then because meatpacking was still a thing because we're so old. But anyway, we were doing all of that and then producing. And we had, Glenda would tell your boss, she was really tough, but like, very enthusiastic and she was really demanding. And for like Glenda, the greatest success would be like, if you got your cover on the front page of the New York Post or on page six.

• 44:09Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. But it was also a time when fashion was really becoming part of the like pop culture landscape. And so, so much of what we were sort of charged with doing, I mean, this was before social media. So it was a completely different. Like how we would communicate all the great work that we were doing looked very different.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, because Page Six really was it.

• 44:28Speaker 03

  Like Page Six was it. And, and all of the sort of ways that we would try to get our, you know, stories out into the culture, you know, it was like Laura was on TV talking about our covers or we were doing things, like it was really a fun, very, very different time.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:45Speaker 03

  And, you know, then obviously we stayed and stayed and stayed. I ended up, you know, not leaving there until 2012. So I was there for 12 years. Laura stayed on after I left. You know, it was like the decade, I would say, when fashion just sort of like exploded. And then obviously digital came along and like completely changed the game.

• 45:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Ruined everything. No, I'm just kidding. But thank you for like regaling us with the stories.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  And then Christina got the big boss job at WSA Magazine in 2012. And I got the big boss job at InStyle in 2016. So she was four years. And when she left, I was happy for her, but I was sad.

• 45:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:20Speaker 00

  Because my friend had gone.

• 45:22Rayna Greenberg?

  That's what we were like.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  And you know, we were like arm in arm.

• 45:24Speaker 03

  All fits friends, but like real life friends. And I think that was just that era and it was probably a lot to do with our age, but like you really did kind of like work all day and then you would like go out to dinner together or, you know, go on vacations together. Like it was just where everything just kind of moved together. And so, you know, when I left, it really did kind of start to like break the gang up a bit.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  Oh, she broke up the gang.

• 45:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I could like feel this story.

• 45:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:49Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just following the money.

• 45:51Speaker 00

  She follows the money.

• 45:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Listen, I love money, but I love my friends too.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  She got the big job and that's like, you know, what you.

• 45:56Speaker 03

  It was like the editor in chief gig, you know?

• 45:58Speaker 00

  You're conditioned to want, you know, and I mean, through all of these years.

• 46:01Rayna Greenberg?

  But you guys have been in fashion for so long, this is not a hot take, but I mean, the changes that have come through, I mean, it was like you're, to your point, so gate kept fashion and then. Page Six was the newspaper. Yeah. And then you have social media and then influencers became the models on the runways. And it was crazy to be like, these are the models now?

• 46:16Speaker 00

  You're like, why is this person walking up and down with the phone in front of the car? Haven't they found their car? And then I was like, oh, it took me a minute. I was like, why are these people having a really hard time finding their car?

• 46:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 46:25Speaker 00

  Because they're just doing pictures all day.

• 46:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Get ready with me to go to a fashion show.

• 46:28Rayna Greenberg?

  So you guys both really achieved your dreams of becoming editor in chief.

• 46:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Chiefs is a weird plural word.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:36Rayna Greenberg?

  And then tell us how it came crashing down.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  Well, okay. Yeah, well, Laura gets to go first because she got fired first. And look, and again, we became editors in chief and yay, yippies, skadoos. You know, we got that, but it was not, you know, our era of even even Christina's. The challenges were starting to begin for for legacy media. It was starting to the digital was taking over. You know, advertising was going which some way or another. We we weren't in the town car Conde Nast mythical era, um, which was fine because we worked hard. We didn't, we didn't, neither one of us come from money. We've, we, we, we worked, we really worked. We really worked so hard. And and so we, you know, to the grindstone sort of did that. And so, you know, come 2016. I was hired in 2016 and, you know, I get hired. It's like Trump is elected three months later.

• 47:25Speaker 00

  And and I, uh, at Insta, I went through three different company owners. I walked in and Time Inc. was going through its death rattle then. And it was Meredith, which is a bunch of conservative guys from Des Moines who I actually kind of really loved because they were like really straightforward. And then we got bought by this company called Dot Dash, which is a bunch of media, New York media kind of bros. So through my tenure there, it was COVID, it was every, it was, it was not simple. And we did great work. Through COVID, yeah. It was like, you know, yeah, we just did really, really great work. And and there was a part of me that was like, and when COVID ended, I was a bit like, oh, okay. Oh, we got this actress on the cover and she has to wear Louis Vuitton because we need their money. And I was getting a bit like the dog with the head out the window, as I say in the book. I was thinking of doing my own thing at the end of the year.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  Did not think in any way we were all going to get absolutely shit canned in February of 2022. So I was not paying the most attention, I guess, like day to day. But yeah, we were all, myself and my team were sort of called on, I got 20 minutes notice, but my team was Oh, my God. Fired on a Zoom and just sort of given the script, you know, and HR, they got to give you a script because they've got to tick all their legal boxes and everything else. And so that was, yeah, that was February and I remember getting everybody back on this all hands call. And my new joke is like, you know, all hands meetings sound like sort of like a big hug. You're always getting fired. All hands means you're getting fired. Just us. And so, but you know what I mean? It's like, it's never good. Or it's like somebody yelling or a protest or something. Anyway.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  So then I got back on the Zoom with my team and I remember saying something that is actually the very, the spine or the inception of of the book now. I was sort of saying, you guys, and especially to my baby employees who it was their first job, and you know, saying, your value is yours. What you've created and learned in this job is yours. You know what I mean? You own this. Do not give them power over you. Do not let them take it from you. And that's the essence of this book. So I was done in February, went off, actually got married, knew I wasn't going to work for anybody ever again, let things sort of come to me and all of that. And then cut to record screech, 14 months later, and

• 49:25Speaker 03

  I got the boot.

• 49:26Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 49:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I had gone through some changes in the job because there had been different editor in chiefs because the newspaper, you know, had gone through a lot of transition in the 10 years that I was there. But the magazine was sort of its own fiefdom. We, you know, kept our heads down, made a lot of money, you know, had a very successful product, both editorially and advertising. So when the new boss came in, she was announced in December of 2022 and started in February 2023. So she started and, you know, it was like hectic. It's a global news organization. At the time, we had a colleague who had been, you know, unlawfully detained in Russia.

• 50:10Speaker 03

  Like, there was a lot of shit going on. So I was sort of like, okay, cool. We're just gonna stay over here in my lane and keep doing what I'm doing. But February went by and then March went by. It was the end of April and I was like, okay, it's a little weird. I haven't met with her. She's like, I don't need to learn your name because you won't be here. Maybe it's like a little weird. Three months, haven't met your boss. Yeah. So, okay, it doesn't matter how much like money we were minting. Maybe that should have been a sign. So I finally get the meeting, you know, my team and I, like, we prepped like crazy for it because here I am thinking like, she's so busy. We're just gonna like knock her socks off. Like, you know, we did PowerPoints. There was like printouts. It was like all this shit, ready to go.

• 50:53Speaker 03

  And my sweet assistant at the time, right before the meeting, we're like standing around. It was probably a group of four or five of us, you know, do you have everything? Okay, like this, you know, we're gonna do this portfolio first. You're gonna bring it and then you're gonna pull up the PDF. Then you're gonna show the And she said, oh, by the way, the meeting location just changed from her office to the HR floor.

• 51:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, I felt that like in my chest. Oh, no.

• 51:16Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean,

• 51:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  It was like dun, dun, dun, dun.

• 51:18Rayna Greenberg?

  And like mass firing, just get everybody in a room?

• 51:21Speaker 03

  No, it was just me. It was just me.

• 51:23Rayna Greenberg?

  She's a special girl.

• 51:24Speaker 03

  So literally I said, okay, guys, I'll be right back. I'm gonna go get fired. And lo and behold, I did.

• 51:32Rayna Greenberg?

  And then the team didn't? Like, how many people were on your team?

• 51:35Speaker 03

  My team was almost 50 people by the time I left. And no, I was one of one. I was really singled out. I had the exclusive at the time on getting fired. It was super exciting.

• 51:47Speaker 03

  No, so I was, so I go to this, you know, HR room and it is sort of as Laura describes, you know, someone's there with a script, you have an HR professional kind of making sure that everything is, you know.

• 51:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Diligence is done.

• 51:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 51:58Speaker 03

  But she said to me, you know, we're happy to follow your narrative.

• 52:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  And I thought, my narrative? Like, what do you mean? And I couldn't, like, in the moment, imagine coming up with a lie. They could carry forward the disappointment and devastation that I felt.

• 52:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Were you like in that moment, did you blackout?

• 52:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, kind of.

• 52:21Rayna Greenberg?

  When I lost a job, I'd only been there for like a year and a half. I, it, it wasn't my whole world that I dedicated my life to. I mean, I, I would, how do you even have any clarity in a moment like that to be able to tell them what the narrative is?

• 52:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, in the book, you write, like, I wasn't embezzling. What do you mean? Are you, you fired me?

• 52:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 52:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's the narrative, right?

• 52:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. You know, listen, I think we work in an industry where, you know, people are very worried about other people's perceptions.

• 52:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  And, you know, at the same time, like, while I knew, like, wait, I'm good at my job. Like, I didn't do anything wrong. Like, she, she literally does just want to go in a different direction. Why would I come up with some bullshit? Sort of adding to the sort of like, you know, carrying the narrative forward by also being like, oh, I'm gonna go start my own company. Like, I had, there was nothing brewing. My head was not out the window like Laura's was. Like, I hadn't registered my LLC. Like, I hadn't done anything. So there wasn't even like a glimmer of like, what I would do next. And, you know, like, listen, that is one of the things that, like, in writing this book, everyone we meet, they're like, You guys getting fired made me think about what would happen if I ever got fired. And like, if that's a gift, take it.

• 53:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes. I think it's really important to think about, but in the moment, like, I do remember thinking, like, what will I tell people? What will I tell my next employer? What would his story be like? I'm, I'm like, you're in a half on this resume. Everybody's gonna ask, why did you leave your job? And you have to say, I got fired. You start thinking, like, how am I gonna spin this?

• 53:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:44Rayna Greenberg?

  And ever get another job again? And thank God, you, you both had resumes to back up an incredible career. And we all do. But I was young. But we all, we all do.

• 53:52Speaker 00

  Went away. And it's like, you know, I think that's, that's what, and a big part of this book is, women tend to forget, and men too, but it's like, being honest and saying, I mean, you're fired, laid off, it's the same stuff. You know what I mean? Like, being honest, it's, it's shitty enough. You got fired, you go try and find another job. And then you're carrying around this burden of some spin you've had to make up. And you've got to make sure it's consistent and right. And I'm like, and it's a lie. You know what I mean? Rather than like, you know, there was a change of the thing. I got laid off or we got fired.

• 54:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Right.

• 54:17Speaker 00

  Especially 2025, you're amongst hundreds of thousands of people.

• 54:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Absolutely.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? So don't take, you know, there's no gain in taking this big, heavy kettlebell of bloody shame and spin and going, well, because it's everywhere. And if you do that, it just slows down your future.

• 54:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  It's like, you know, it, because you've got this on you. It's like, it's, you've already got to pay your rent. You've already got all these immediate stresses. So why, you always say it's like an envelope on the head, and then you just put another one on?

• 54:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it is like this, keeping the story straight part. It's like,

• 54:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  Why, why not just call it what it is? And that was the thing for me, like, in the moment. I mean, you asked if I, like, blacked out. Like, there are parts of that meeting that I have zero recalled.

• 55:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Of course.

• 55:01Speaker 03

  And I know I was not, I was in there for longer than like, three minutes. So it's like, there were other things said and, you know, I probably said something else that like, but that I don't have full. But what I do remember is I had total clarity around the fact that I said, nope, we're gonna go and tell my team tomorrow that you're firing me. And then I asked if they would have a part, throw a party for me and pay for it.

• 55:20Rayna Greenberg?

  That's right. I love that you actually took this three minutes. Your body is flooded with cortisol. You actually are blacking out. You are panicking. You're like, can we have a party?

• 55:28Speaker 03

  We're gonna celebrate.

• 55:30Speaker 00

  Also, what did you do in that HR meeting?

• 55:32Speaker 03

  I did not sign anything.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  Oh, no, what else you did?

• 55:34Speaker 03

  Oh, and I texted Laura under the table.

• 55:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was just gonna say, it's our first call, obviously.

• 55:38Speaker 00

  She was like, oh, okay.

• 55:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that point. I love that you had the wherewithal not to sign anything. I mean, again, you're, we were an adult, but like, well, we'll encourage people to read the book, but there is so much stuff like that in the book. Like, don't sign anything in that moment when you're blacked out.

• 55:51Speaker 03

  There was like a packet of paper like this thick and you, it's like being pushed at you and you're kind of like, uh, uh, like in that moment, no. Like, I couldn't even see straight. I mean, I could see enough to text Laura underneath the table.

• 56:02Speaker 00

  I'm giving you props for hand-eye coordination, frankly. She's got all these documents and PDFs that are being ignored because she's being fired. She's got a packet of papers and she's texting at the same time. I mean, what a gift.

• 56:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Only women.

• 56:12Speaker 00

  What a gift.

• 56:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can multitask like that.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  Cool, having it all.

• 56:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I think that the shame, I validate people's shame, but

• 56:19Speaker 03

  Oh, it's real.

• 56:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  It really does happen to everybody. It's like getting dumped.

• 56:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's exactly like getting dumped.

• 56:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Ran out of a broken engagement and she would, she'll always say at the time, she was like, who would this happen to? This, this hasn't happened to anyone. It's so embarrassing. It's so shameful. And it's like, it happens, everybody gets, everybody gets dumped, everybody gets fired.

• 56:35Speaker 03

  Or divorced, like.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  And people just, you know, are so busy trying to keep their social status going that oftentimes they don't necessarily address it. And it's like, shit happens to everyone in every way. And so the sooner, not everyone has to walk down the street with an emotional billboard every day, but you know what I mean? The sooner that you share this stuff. And it could be like, I mean, look what's going on with menopause now. Let's go, what's going on with us? What's going on with you guys? It's like, the sooner we share this, we lift this burden for everyone that we voluntarily place on ourselves as women.

• 57:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Absolutely. And I think that, I, I think that we're starting, the younger generation is trying to undo this like, girl boss mentality, but we were raised with girl boss mentality. I mean, your job is your worth. It was my whole identity. I moved to New York when I was 22. I mean, I tied my worth to my job 100%. That's all I wanted to do was like work and tell people what I did for work.

• 57:23Speaker 00

  Well, then you're a girl boss too close to the sun and then what happens?

• 57:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Not the girl boss too close to the sun. So let's, let's talk about the identity. Start a podcast. There's a great chapter about, I think it's in the mental health chapter about all of that. And like identity tied up in your job and what to do, what not to do, not shutting people out, maybe getting off social media. I mean, what are some of your? Each of your tips like right after in the mental health section.

• 57:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, we firmly believe that you need to take whatever time you need to take. And if that involves like laying on your sofa for a week and drinking wine, starting at 4pm, we're all for it.

• 57:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 57:58Speaker 03

  But we really. Eleven, 11am, that's fine, too.

• 58:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Treat it like it's COVID.

• 58:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:05Speaker 00

  COVID for life.

• 58:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is COVID every day.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  Every day I would be like, is 11 too early to start drinking?

• 58:14Speaker 03

  I never showered. It was amazing. So anyway.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  There were some sloppy good parts.

• 58:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wasn't that sort of COVID-y? Like, we all just kind of got fired.

• 58:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was already there. Yeah.

• 58:25Speaker 03

  So, no, I mean, we encourage that, but obviously you can't like wallow and retreat forever. And we do believe like the sooner you're out, at least with the people who make you feel safe and heard, like get in front of those people, talk about it, like talking about it really helps. Obviously, if you know, you are in a mental health spin and you need like professional help, seek it. But I think, you know, for me, I had to stay in the job for six weeks until I kind of got my official, like, party papers.

• 58:57Speaker 00

  It's a long goodbye.

• 58:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Tell them through your party.

• 58:59Speaker 03

  It was a very long goodbye.

• 59:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  I thought she said party papers.

• 59:03Speaker 00

  That's code of receipts and she didn't have to pay for them.

• 59:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is the invoice for the party. It's the party paper.

• 59:10Speaker 03

  I stayed until I found my laxative suspense report.

• 59:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  They needed to find like a venue and a florist, the DJ.

• 59:19Speaker 00

  I would be like, talk about insult to injury. You're fired. Now organize your own party.

• 59:22Speaker 03

  She was like, can I borrow what? Just like an outfit from the closet for the party. It was a really fun party. But my team needed closure. That needed to happen and that was great. But, oh my God, you guys are making me laugh. No, but I think the, the sort of, you know, in the immediate aftermath, like you do have to start talking about it and you have to kind of get out there. And it depends on your industry. Like, we had industry events that we could go to and show up at and sort of like show our faces. And it just helped like.

• 59:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Kind of immediately start de-stigmatizing the shame.

• 59:54Speaker 00

  Because you actually have to bring some ego into it. You know what I mean? Again, like I was saying, like your value is yours. And again, and it's like, and the reason we did that bloody Instagram post in the first place was like, all the cool girls get fired. Yeah, we're cool. We know what we're doing. We're really good at our jobs. We got fired.

• 1:00:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Those things can coexist. And again, this year and this time in history coexists more than ever, ever, ever, ever before. But yeah, I went to a fashion show the day after I got fired. I went to like the coolest fashion show in New York City.

• 1:00:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:00:21Speaker 00

  And, and I was like, you know what? I deserve to be here. I earned the right to be here. I've been a journalist for twenty seven, twenty eight years.

• 1:00:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  In fashion media. And it was kind of, you're certainly in shock, but there was a bit of strategy, you know, a bit of gut, guttural strategy to it.

• 1:00:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:00:37Speaker 00

  Being like, yeah, you know what? I'm gonna look cool. I'm gonna go to this and everyone's gonna go, oh, my God, oh, my God. Yeah, what can you believe it? Oh, shit. Yeah. Hug, hug, hug, hug, hug. Bye.

• 1:00:45Rayna Greenberg?

  But that tells the whole room of people, I'm not an idiot. They're idiots.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, and this goes for anyone, you know what I mean? Breaking news, the rest of the world doesn't go to fashion shows the day after they get fired. But it is like, sort of, if you're on the couch and you're drinking and you're eating cake and whatever, just sort of put up a periscope. You know, just a little bit of what's out there and just deploy yourself in a way that makes you feel comfortable in, in places where you know you'll be cared for. And not places that you know that you won't. You know what I mean? And you know, it's like, it's like a metabolism. You, you know how much you can take of that? A lunch every now and again, a text, an email. You've got to listen to yourself too. But guess what? Getting out in the world does tend to make you feel better. Because all that time spent alone, even if you're in a good space in life, how often do you end up feeling worse? If you're at home on, on your own for too long. So.

• 1:01:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:32Speaker 00

  You get that encouragement. You get a bit of validation. You get a bit of a hug, a pat on the back, a call me, a free drink. You know, any, any of that stuff. So we, we super, there's, there's nothing good that comes from isolating yourself.

• 1:01:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. And the, the talking about it, I had a friend in a group of friends that I have that.

• 1:01:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Got fired and I knew she felt so embarrassed about it and wasn't telling the rest of the group and I was one of the few people that knew and they were like, she's not telling everybody and we were all together and she told everybody and you could feel the sense of relief and everybody rallied around her and you know, tells you how worthy you are and doesn't that feel nice and we've all been there.

• 1:02:07Speaker 03

  It feels so good.

• 1:02:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  So it's just like, I bet she was wishing like, why would I?

• 1:02:10Speaker 03

  Why didn't I do this sooner?

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  Lose this time.

• 1:02:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. And if you don't put your hand up, like no one's gonna grab it and like pull you along, you know, and I think that's the other thing, like our industry is so word of mouth, it's so based on relationships, it is such a, who do you know, who can help, you know, how can you sort of like leverage your network? And if you're not communicating within that group of people, and maybe they're two or three degrees removed type of people.

• 1:02:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  But even so, like those are potential connections to get you where you want to go next. And I think for us, it was really important to kind of telegraph it, like both of our companies sent press releases.

• 1:02:46Speaker 00

  We were public billboard fired.

• 1:02:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Which is not, yeah.

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  Like press release fired, you know, and that doesn't matter again, you have to tell the people that care for you.

• 1:02:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Okay, just gonna take a really quick break. I'm telling you guys about Wink's Health. Wink's Health is your answer to what the F is going on down there. But I mean, seriously, there's so much.

• 1:03:08Speaker 03

  I ask all the time.

• 1:03:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's just being a woman. It's always something. Always something.

• 1:03:13Speaker 03

  I gotta get out of your home ecologist appointment right now.

• 1:03:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly.

• 1:03:17Speaker 03

  I never know.

• 1:03:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  So UTIs, pregnancy scares, whatever you need, they have you covered. It is the sexual health brand making all those, oh, I don't want to deal with this moments actually easy. So you don't have to worry about shame or spiraling, these are just the real solutions that put you in control. So they have the morning after pill, the restart morning after pill is legal in all 50 states, available to anyone of any age. It's the same exact active ingredient and effectiveness as Plan B. And then of course for UTIs, yeast infections and BV, Wink's Health's at home test and treat kits tell you what the fuck is going on down there and you can get prescription treatments the same day without stepping into a waiting room. Are you guys hearing this? Like this is just do it all at home and get treated. Wink's Health is 100% women owned, OBGYN approved and obsessed with making sexual and vaginal health less confusing and more in your control.

• 1:04:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  So we are just such fans of it. You guys can find Wink's Health nationwide at Walgreens or delivered in 30 minutes via GoPuff, DoorDash or Instacart. Head to hello winks.com slash GGE for 50% off winks at Walgreens. So that's hello W I N X dot com slash GGE for 50% off. And of course, you can stock up on your winks, sexual health essentials at your local Walgreens.

• 1:04:27Rayna Greenberg?

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• 1:05:09Rayna Greenberg?

  And if you've got a goal you want to save for, they can analyze all your accounts and find the best time to earn each month to put extra money aside. I mean, they really do it all and we talk a lot about finance on this show and like, where do I begin? This is where you begin, just a simple tool. Do this for yourself. Rocket Money has saved users over $2.5 billion, including over $880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members save up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster at Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com slash GGE today. That's rocketmoney.com slash GGE today. Rocketmoney.com slash GGE.

• 1:05:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so the book is a great handbook essentially of the technical stuff to do. We've said we're not going to get into that today, but we encourage everyone to go through. Get the book. Yeah, get the book. I feel like Colbert. Step by step, because I think people's heads are spinning and they're like, I know I should be doing something on the legal, the unemployment, all this stuff. So anyway, all that's in the book for you guys. And I think that's really important. We just weren't going to outline it all today. So you guys can get it in the book, but should we talk about really what came next?

• 1:06:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I mean, I like that you both kind of like walked out the door and went to a media event and didn't like wallow. And I mean, some people need to obviously go home, open the door to their house and apply for unemployment that moment.

• 1:06:27Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 1:06:27Rayna Greenberg?

  And whatever you need to do to feel better. But I remember an ex of mine got fired and I was like, okay, let's write a resume, let's write a cover letter, start applying. And he was like, can I just have like a second to digest this?

• 1:06:36Speaker 00

  No, you need a second.

• 1:06:37Rayna Greenberg?

  And I think that you guys gave yourself that grace and put yourselves in rooms with people to remind yourself, I built a network, there's tons of bridges to other things that I have.

• 1:06:45Speaker 00

  Yep, yep.

• 1:06:45Rayna Greenberg?

  You know, like, look at my career in front of me. I think you both did something immediately next to remind yourself, I'm still in it.

• 1:06:51Speaker 00

  Yep. And that could be just going to the local bar or Starbucks or somewhere where you're, you know, your industry is. Like, it doesn't matter what that place is. It is because wherever you work, you know where the value is, and you know where your community is, and you know, we're going to feel comfortable. And it's really, really important because people do want to help. And now, again, with, you know, this year, we're reading something like three quarters of a million layoffs this year, like, just mostly government agencies, everything else. There is more empathy now in the workplace than there's ever been. There's going to be dick bosses everywhere. We all know that, you know. But there is more understanding of all of these changes. There is more understanding of that you were three months at a place and then you got chucked. There is all of that.

• 1:07:35Speaker 03

  Your point about that gap in the resume, I think all of that is like gone.

• 1:07:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I think so too.

• 1:07:40Speaker 03

  And I think people stay a job shorter a period of time.

• 1:07:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:42Speaker 03

  People have like three jobs.

• 1:07:43Rayna Greenberg?

  And you have no idea, like, what's the full time job? What's the consultancy? What's the sort of like, you know, part time hustle? Like, you look at someone's resume and it's very hard now, I think, to tell, like, it's not linear like it used to be.

• 1:07:55Speaker 00

  People are patching things together, you know. And also, like, sort of the silver lining, but we say, what is it? Pewter lining? Because you feel like shit, right? Everything's shit. Everything is shit. The pewter lining is also that the workplace isn't linear and that the, this, this corner office doesn't need to be the goal anymore. This, the individual, you guys are absolute testament to this. The individual is the career, is your economy. You two, as hosts of this, are your business. And not everyone's going to host a podcast. Not everyone is a, an entrepreneur. It's, but you, there's so many different things the individual can do based on their individual skills that don't rely on a corporate, a 401k and that sort of structure.

• 1:08:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  Which is so challenged right now.

• 1:08:33Rayna Greenberg?

  So you asked, Ashley asked, what's next? And something I want to go back to that you said is when you, when you were at your job.

• 1:08:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:39Rayna Greenberg?

  You thought like, what else is out there? Maybe I'll start something else. Maybe, maybe, maybe down the line. And

• 1:08:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Were you like, oh, my God, this is my chance?

• 1:08:47Speaker 00

  I had registered LB Media on LegalZoom and set up an email address on GoDaddy. I remember because I was like, I'm, I'm a professional in 2020. I realized it was that far in advance and I'd had this thing, nothing to do with COVID. I know what it was. I'd, I'd known that I sort of had enough, what I would say LB juice to, to do my own thing because I was becoming a little bit tired of having my fate, my mood on my day controlled by these kind of publishing overlords in an increasingly challenged and fickle business. I knew that. I had sort of social media insurance. I existed for, for every cover of InStyle on social media that might be me and a koala or a meal like as Laura, you know? So I knew I had, had that. But no, I thought about doing a few other different

• 1:09:32Speaker 00

  things. So when it happened, I quite literally went and got my little pleather folder with my LLC in it, out of the drawer in the back of my house.

• 1:09:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  And was like, all right, here we go. You know? So, you know, the, the timing was forced, but the sensibility and the desire was always there and I just had to, had to be activated.

• 1:09:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  But you have a different story and you talk about in the book, you liked working for a company. Like you didn't have the secret LLC on the back.

• 1:10:02Speaker 00

  She does now.

• 1:10:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I just, I liked hearing that because I think there's no right or wrong. I was always a person who's like, I can't work for anybody. I'm just a, I'm a, I'm a problem. I can't be managed. And you were like, I like it. I like the stability. Like I want to be at this big company and feel about security. So it was a different story.

• 1:10:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think we're very different in that. Like Laura took this as a sign that like she never has to work for someone else again. And I took this as, you know, for all of my like entrepreneurial instincts, I like applying them within like the rigidity of an organization and not always having to invoice.

• 1:10:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 1:10:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:39Speaker 00

  It does suck. We are chasing like right now, we're on our way over here. We're like, we haven't invoiced yet. Or like, no, what we're always doing is like, Half of our conversation is, did you do the ducky sign?

• 1:10:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  It's so hot.

• 1:10:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. And when you go on your own, that minutia. I mean, how many times people just not send invoices, like mostly men, but like we will be we will chase down. And it's not that you don't want the money. You're just like, I have so much on my plate.

• 1:11:02Speaker 00

  I know. It's just a lot of busy work.

• 1:11:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Being an entrepreneur, yes.

• 1:11:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it is.

• 1:11:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:07Speaker 03

  I mean, the book is like a sort of a slice of that type of, you know, behavior and that is, you know, I'm capable of sending an invoice for something if we're working on it for the book.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Speaker 03

  But my like day job, I can't have my like full time sort of, you know, my, my boyfriend, my, you know, partner is also a sort of, you know, creative like Laura and has his own company. And, you know, he's having to pitch and hustle and, you know, sort of kind of like chase like work in a way that's really rewarding when it all lands. But it's just a different way of sort of, you know, and he's always done that. That's like his business. And I was like, we can't have two of us doing this. Like, so, you know, I think if I had like some lightning strike idea where it was like, this is the thing that's like going to take me in this other direction.

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  Or a match that was lit, for example.

• 1:11:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, we'll see where the book goes, but I think for now.

• 1:12:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  We keep forgetting like the book.

• 1:12:06Speaker 03

  No, but I think for me, I just didn't feel like I was done making magazines. Like, I really love kind of like just collating everything that's happening in the culture and like translating it for an audience and like creating, like, I love the visual execution of, of magazine making. I love working with writers and teams and like pulling all the ideas together. And, you know, I was very lucky in that the CEO of Sotheby's, who was someone who I had known, you know, a little bit from my job at WSJ, we had covered Sotheby's, we had interacted socially. He had seen a few events that we had done and I had been to a few things that they had done. So we just started talking and, you know, he called me like the day after the announcement had been made that I was leaving. And, you know,

• 1:12:51Speaker 03

  not that I like dismissed it, but I was not in the headspace. I was a little bit like, I need a minute. Let me think about it. And as conversations sort of evolved over the period when I wasn't working until I kind of knew that I needed to start working. It was the only thing that I kept coming back to. I was like, Sotheby's has so much cultural like impact, you know, it's a 281 year old company now.

• 1:13:15Rayna Greenberg?

  As old as we feel.

• 1:13:17Speaker 03

  And it sort of is talking to the same consumer that I've been talking to my entire career. It's a luxury audience. And so what we ended up kind of cobbling together was just a really challenging, interesting kind of position that had never existed in their company before. And certainly wasn't something that like, I sort of sat down and like, you know, whiteboarded. But as the conversation kind of grew, I was like, this could be really interesting. And it sort of, you know, ensures that the paycheck shows up every two weeks.

• 1:13:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. I mean, I like that you say that. And you're both so different. And being entrepreneur, it's being entrepreneur is amazing. I'm proud of what we built, but there is definitely something to be said for stability and knowing you're going to paycheck. There's systems in place. There's processes. You don't have to do everything yourself. And not everybody loses their job and has a big idea. I think there's this pressure to like, oh, I'm out on my own and I can go do my own thing now. Not everybody needs to become an influencer or launch a business. If you can, great. But it sounds like you also found an outlet so you can work inside of a company and be creative. And this is entrepreneurial to write a book.

• 1:14:16Speaker 03

  A hundred percent. And we had sold the book before I started working there. So I went in like with a very clear like, hey, guys, I'm going to have this thing come out in about a year and a half about me getting fired from the old job.

• 1:14:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Right.

• 1:14:27Speaker 03

  But they've been really supportive. And I have to say, I think because the message is so clear and positive, like, we are really saying like, the workplace has shifted. This is not an alone experience anymore. And the whole point of the book is to really lift people up and like, bring people along in their conversations about what happened to them.

• 1:14:48Speaker 00

  And also, like, even if you take a job that you need for the reasons that you needed, being fired or can't, what we urge people as well is to listen to the, not everyone's an entrepreneur, but there's some little pilot light in, in everyone, somewhere. The, the, and I, you know, this is the best bit of advice in the book that is from a finance, finance guy, Ron Lieber at the New York Times, and he literally says, if you've been fired or whatever, look back over the course of your career to what made you happy and what made you less happy. What can you do going forward to increase the happiness and decrease the unhappiness? And in some people, it is like, oh, there is this creative thing that maybe I want to investigate. Maybe it's not going to make me all the money. Maybe I've still got to go to this job. But that's what's, there is also a hybridization to be, you don't have to be an entrepreneur or a paid worker. You know what I mean?

• 1:15:30Speaker 00

  This is all of these nonlinear ways to, I mean, I read a story in the Times the other day. It was very depressing. It was about how college educated people who were always presumed to be eminently hirable, were all getting laid off now. And there was a guy and he was cobbling together work from here and there and everywhere. And it wasn't really what, I think he was, he'd written code and he was getting sort of wiped by AI, right? So he was doing all these different jobs, but it was a part of him and he was like, you know, I always really liked board games and, and I used to make, I used to love making board games. And now I'm going to see that if I can do that too. And it wasn't going to be where his check was coming. It wasn't going to be where his lovely wood was coming, but the fact that he'd allowed his mind to go there.

• 1:16:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:05Speaker 00

  Was like a solve for all the shitty stuff.

• 1:16:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:08Speaker 00

  You know?

• 1:16:09Rayna Greenberg?

  What do they say? The best way to get a raise is to leave your job and go to the next job.

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  Yes. And lie about your former salary.

• 1:16:14Rayna Greenberg?

  And, but it, but it really is like you will get a jump and like, I, getting fired was the greatest blessing for me because I never would have taken the leaps next. And I worked in restaurants. I really wanted to work for Danny Meyer. I never would have had the balls to apply because I was like, I'm not good enough. Everybody that works there went to Cornell for management school. And I was just like, well, I have nothing to lose now. I have no money, I have no job.

• 1:16:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, sometimes it makes you sack up.

• 1:16:37Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I, I cold emailed the company and was just like, I don't know if you guys are hiring, but I would love to interview. And I never would have had the balls to do that. I had a great salary at my job. I would have never left. I wouldn't, but I wouldn't have left.

• 1:16:49Speaker 00

  No, exactly.

• 1:16:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's how I felt like.

• 1:16:51Speaker 00

  You have to be shocked into it sometimes.

• 1:16:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do you guys remember Daily Candy? Do you remember?

• 1:16:54Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:16:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was their Atlanta editor and it was like a dream job. I couldn't believe that was my job. And I had had the job for three years and I felt like it was time to go. I had my own blog. It was starting to take off, but I couldn't dedicate all my time to it because I was running around doing stuff for Daily Candy and the company.

• 1:17:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Shut down, all the local editors got let go. And it was such, it was so crushing, but I had that same feeling of like, why would I leave?

• 1:17:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:17:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Until you're forced into it.

• 1:17:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  I would have never, I would probably still be like toiling away at WSJ, Groundhog Day-ing my way through life.

• 1:17:24Rayna Greenberg?

  And the longer you're there, the more family you develop. And especially if you say to yourself, like, who leaves a job? I get the job at Daily Candy. It's my dream. Who would leave something like this? That's crazy. And I never would have left my job. I was like, I thought I was the biggest baddie on the block. I worked for like this big restaurant group and I never would have left. And when I left, I met my now ex fiance, which is like my biggest, the most defining moment in my life is what happened with him. And I write about it in comedy and I talk about it on the show. And Ashley and I like would never have met. I mean, it forced me down a path I never would have gone on. I feel sick to think about. I wouldn't have been fired.

• 1:17:56Speaker 00

  I know, isn't it wild?

• 1:17:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, it's like what Oprah says in the book.

• 1:17:59Speaker 00

  The setback is a setup.

• 1:18:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, that's what we want to talk about. Like, I don't know many women, or people, I guess, but you know, I like to talk to women.

• 1:18:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  That have gotten fired that don't say it was the best thing. And the same with breakups. I think there's so much correlation between the two.

• 1:18:14Speaker 00

  You don't want to hear it at the time. You want to punch the person who's saying it in the face.

• 1:18:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, you can only see it through the lens. You don't want to hear it in the moment.

• 1:18:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:20Speaker 00

  But they're probably right.

• 1:18:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. So you guys do have a whole, I think it's the end about reinventing yourself.

• 1:18:27Speaker 00

  All the different ladies who, who wrote to us, and this was so wonderful because

• 1:18:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, the quotes are so great.

• 1:18:31Speaker 00

  When we, when we started, we call it cool girls who had epiphanies. And we asked, all the way through the process of reading the book, do you have, do you have a story that you want to share with us on our cool girls email? And, and we had women really like unloading things they'd never, maybe ever told anybody before. And every single one, there must be 30 or so in the book, have reached the conclusion that it was the best thing that could have happened to them. It took them a minute. They were, they were

• 1:18:57Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you said, no, no one wants to hear this. This will be the greatest thing. You're like, shut the fuck up. Don't say that to people.

• 1:19:05Speaker 00

  But guess what? In times, times that they, they show more ownership of their skills and their future, some of them started their own business. The most beautiful, one I love so dearly is the last passage in the book. It's from four girls who worked in marketing at Style. So they got laid off too. And they started a business together called Out of Office Marketing. And the most wrote the most beautiful lyrical passage about ownership and teamwork and running their own show and and it's just and we've seen them on the tour and it's like, that's it. Yeah, that's that's what you can do. And again, there are people there for you. You know, again, if you reach out your hand and and we hear from women. All on LinkedIn right now is a buzz.

• 1:19:47Speaker 00

  We're just connecting like absolute frenzy on LinkedIn because all these because we know if they're connecting with us, they've they've got a story. You know, and the stories we're getting are so unbelievable and and so there's just no regrets.

• 1:20:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think there's just when you walk out that door, there's so much shame attached to it and you I remember thinking I'm the only person this has ever happened to. How will I ever share this with anybody? I'm so humiliated, but what you're doing is so important to just remind people that this happens to everybody and like so much good comes from it, but man, it feels so bad in that moment.

• 1:20:20Speaker 03

  We wish you had our book.

• 1:20:23Speaker 00

  Oprah was like, I wish I had your book and we're like, you do now. And she's like, I don't really need it.

• 1:20:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm all set. Well, if she ever fires me. Circle back to how you got your next position, which was through a connection while you were at your existing job. And this is the gonna be the coldest take of the interview, but really just the connections that you make like just that's the networking and having those and keeping them in your back pocket and showing up. Presenting well to people while you currently have a job is so important. Any job I've ever gotten was from a connection from the previous one. And so never stop thinking about what's next. Like you're the prime example of that and how important it is. It's like my number one is the career advice.

• 1:21:08Speaker 00

  I don't think it's a cold take. My dad always said to me since I was young, never burn a bridge, never ever burn a bridge.

• 1:21:13Speaker 03

  That's why we say, don't go scorched earth on your previous employer. Like, I mean, to this day, I will tell you, I loved that job. Like, I love.

• 1:21:19Speaker 00

  Publicly, you'll tell us.

• 1:21:21Speaker 03

  No, but like for real, I really like I have no like.

• 1:21:24Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:21:25Speaker 03

  And I think that's one of the things that we really want people to kind of take away from. One, download your contacts while you still work in your current job. Because as soon as I. Email is shut off. Sometimes it is hard to kind of get things back from, you know, the tech part of whatever.

• 1:21:40Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:21:40Speaker 03

  So, you know, do keep up with like your network and also like, we also were terrible examples of this, but we weren't, you know, constantly updating our bios and like republishing things to LinkedIn and doing all that.

• 1:21:52Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:21:52Speaker 03

  You can do things along the way, especially in this like, you know, landscape right now where there's so much change.

• 1:21:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:58Speaker 03

  To put yourself in a better position when you're in your current job.

• 1:22:00Speaker 00

  And you're not realizing, you're not realizing while you're out. I ran a council for RED, the HIV, and, you know, organization. And that's because I'd met all those guys around throughout the years and U2 and all that kind of stuff. And they, they'd heard this had happened and asked me to do that. And now I can use my skills in fashion, media, entertainment in like global health. And that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't just been out and about.

• 1:22:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:21Speaker 00

  Meeting these people. And, you know, my husband says it's like Johnny Appleseed, you're, you're throwing these seeds around your entire career that you're not necessarily conscious you're doing. You know what I mean? And actually they do bear fruit. They do bear fruit with your experience and with your relationships and when you need them to.

• 1:22:36Speaker 03

  Our previous assistant emailed and wanted to work for us, what, a year and a half before we hired her?

• 1:22:44Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:22:44Speaker 03

  And her resume was great and we didn't need that job. We didn't need the position at the time. And she would follow up. I think, I think she really had it every six months. She would follow up.

• 1:22:54Speaker 00

  But she'd be like, hey.

• 1:22:54Speaker 03

  Buzz, buzz. Then we ended up hiring her.

• 1:22:57Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:22:57Speaker 03

  And I think she was like, whoa. That really worked out. Like sometimes.

• 1:23:02Speaker 00

  When you show you've got the DNA for job. When we were together at Harper's Bazaar, there was this kid called Iggy and he wanted to work at Bazaar so bad in whatever department. And he would go on Twitter and he wanted to work with me for whatever reason. And he would Photoshop me as Daenerys in Game of Thrones.

• 1:23:18Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 1:23:18Speaker 00

  On a throne. And then he would be at my side for some reason. And it was the most camp, ridiculous, and it would make me laugh so hard. And I was like, who's this kid?

• 1:23:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:23:28Speaker 00

  Who's like funny and got photo. Remember he came in, he interned for ages. He's now like the global like photo director of Vogue.

• 1:23:34Speaker 03

  No. I just got chilled. I'm like, that's crazy.

• 1:23:39Speaker 00

  Because he had the nous, the wherewithal. He stuck his hand up. He was funny. He followed up. So basically just Photoshop your, you know, anyone that you want to work for, just turn them into a client. No, but it's that sort of, you know, that sort of belief in yourself and showing that you have that DNA.

• 1:23:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it's not just sending a resume. I love it. I think it's just, I'm always surprised by people that have like a bad reputation for how they treat people and their colleagues or who they come across. Cause I just, it's so important to Ashlyn and I that everybody that meets us has a good experience with us. Whether they work for us, we pay, we pay immediately. We try to treat people as much respect as possible. And I can't imagine not doing that in the workplace. Cause when you are, you're fired for some reason. Don't you want to have a giant list of people that are just like, she's the best. I loved working with her. She's amazing.

• 1:24:23Speaker 00

  Goodwill is, is, is what's in this book. Oprah's in this book because we did three shoots and interviews with her and we got on.

• 1:24:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Right.

• 1:24:29Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Like that's a very niche example, but goodwill goes so far.

• 1:24:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Well, let's maybe wrap up with a little bit of the state of the world and not to end it on a.

• 1:24:41Speaker 00

  It's terrific.

• 1:24:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I know we talked about it a little bit, but the, the good news is people, it's not linear. Like you said, people have more compassion, all the things we kind of mentioned earlier. But is there anything you guys are seeing? Do you have any helpful tips to just really navigate what is a totally different world than five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, one year ago?

• 1:25:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, I think all of it, right? Like keeping those connections near and dear, checking in, figuring out, you know, it is important, I think, to make sure that you're clear on what you want.

• 1:25:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Speaker 03

  When you are reaching out to someone, right? Like putting Laura's head on Daenerys.

• 1:25:21Speaker 00

  I mean, not everyone has to Photoshop my head.

• 1:25:24Speaker 03

  You know, work for everybody.

• 1:25:25Speaker 00

  Understanding your business, understanding the business that you want to be in. And if you feel yucky or uncomfortable or that's not your business, you know what I mean? Where's your comfort level and, and, and where's your interest and following that and just reading the horizon of business now because there's so much change, you know? We, there's so much change in our business, which is why we're not bosses as where we were.

• 1:25:46Speaker 03

  Totally different than it did when we started.

• 1:25:48Speaker 00

  But there's so much change everywhere. AI, look what the government's doing. You know, it's an absolute shit show, you know? But it gives you power. And the important thing to remember is if you lose your job, you don't lose your power. It's only in your head if you do. What gives you power is understanding your business and understanding the change and the nuance and positioning yourself through your own curiosity. And like, you don't have to read 12 books and, you know, become an AI expert. You just have to read the room. You know what I mean? And people hire. People, they don't hire, can I use a bad word? Fucking keywords on LinkedIn, you know what I mean? They don't hire that, they hire people.

• 1:26:21Speaker 03

  They're not gonna hire like a thing.

• 1:26:23Speaker 00

  So remember.

• 1:26:23Speaker 03

  Resume scan on an AI bot like singled you out. Like they are gonna hire you based on that.

• 1:26:29Speaker 00

  It's your community and you have a community in the good times. You have a community in the bad. Community when you're fine, you have a community that's gonna help you get hired again. And you can't forget that. And that's sort of, it's old fashioned as hell. You know, it's always people, the friends you made along the way. You know what I mean? But they're gonna be the ones that are there for you. But again, you gotta stick your hand up.

• 1:26:48Rayna Greenberg?

  That was perfect. This is beautiful. I want you guys to just stay as we can talk.

• 1:26:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know.

• 1:26:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, the book is out, it's been a, well, this'll be.

• 1:26:58Rayna Greenberg?

  It's been a week.

• 1:26:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's been a couple of weeks. While this happens airs, it will have been a couple of weeks and.

• 1:27:02Speaker 00

  The book's been out a couple of weeks.

• 1:27:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  And how, how does it feel?

• 1:27:05Speaker 03

  You know, it really was like a vibe shift in terms of the fact that it sort of existed in our heads and in our like publishers, you know, offices. And then having it out in the world has been such a fulfilling and incredibly, I, I can't even tell you how emotional it's been to kind of connect with all these women who have reached out to us, whether it's on LinkedIn or, you know, through social media. That part, you know, when we realize just how necessary this book is and the timing, you know, being what it is, you know, our hearts are full.

• 1:27:38Speaker 00

  It's really moving and yeah, I'll give the example. There's one who wrote us on LinkedIn and she was an inspector general of a huge government agency and she was laid off, like housing, like really, you know, really meaningful stuff. And she was laid off in that, that sort of round of one line layoffs that happened and fired at the beginning of the year. And she wrote this beautiful note and she said, you know, this was really shocking for me and I, I placed a lot of value in it. This has been so helpful. And then she signed her name and underneath, underneath she wrote, cool girl.

• 1:28:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Why is that very so much?

• 1:28:10Speaker 00

  And I was like, I mean, we're lucky enough to meet her at Vital Voices. And just the other day, they were at this LinkedIn and it was this sweet kid. She must've been what 22 or whatever. And she was like, I was so destroyed when I, when I was like fired from the DMV. And I like, I couldn't get over it, but this is amazing and I feel amazing. And there's so much to learn and I feel so much better. And so that's what we do it for.

• 1:28:34Speaker 03

  Exactly. It's really so impactful. And no, it really like this book has existed in our heads now for like two and a half years. Since, I mean, literally since we went for drinks right after Laura got back from the trip she was on when I had been fired. And so just to have it have gone from like an Instagram post to this. And you know, we're just so grateful for all the readers out there. Like it's wild.

• 1:28:57Rayna Greenberg?

  It's really important what you're doing. And we mentioned this, but in the book, there's so much legal advice and financial advice. And you sat down with so many amazing women and interviewed them. We didn't really mention this, but there's interviews throughout the book of tremendously famous, successful women that lost their careers as well and just had to pick themselves back up. And it's just important to remind people that like, you feel so humiliated and like the world is over, but like it will go on and you can do great things.

• 1:29:23Speaker 00

  You feel so vulnerable, but we don't want anyone to feel vulnerable again.

• 1:29:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're not alone.

• 1:29:28Rayna Greenberg?

  You're not alone. This is the best. Well, this is the best community. Girls that have been fired, we're so cool.

• 1:29:33Speaker 00

  We're, guys, we're awesome.

• 1:29:34Speaker 03

  Cool girls. Sign if fire means anything, you know, out in the world like.

• 1:29:38Speaker 00

  Fired or fire? Am I right?

• 1:29:41Speaker 03

  Were you?

• 1:29:42Speaker 00

  Am I right?

• 1:29:42Speaker 03

  The Oprah thing? Were you silent or were you silenced?

• 1:29:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Just hanging in the loof.

• 1:29:49Speaker 00

  No, he was like, is she gonna ask you that? And I'm like, well, uh.

• 1:29:53Speaker 03

  Were you fired or are you fire? In our case, we're both.

• 1:29:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:30:00Speaker 00

  Sorry, what was the question?

• 1:30:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Girlboss too close to the sun. Okay, well, just we'll let you guys plug whatever if you obviously the book wherever it's sold, but tell people where they can follow you, whatever you have before to plug whatever you want to do.

• 1:30:13Speaker 00

  Follow our growing network at All the Cool Girls Get Fired on Instagram and TikTok, and it's growing real fast. And that's where the real success is, I think. I'm at LauraBryant99, Christina's at Christina underscore O'Neil, and you can go to a bookstore. We've heard of those.

• 1:30:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly.

• 1:30:27Speaker 00

  And we're also on the internet, booksellers, and we, yeah, this week we were named national bestseller. So.

• 1:30:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Congrats.

• 1:30:35Speaker 00

  Keep on going, keep on going. Let's go, girls.

• 1:30:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm so emotional. We gotta get working on our book.

• 1:30:41Rayna Greenberg?

  The minute Ash has getting married this week.

• 1:30:43Speaker 00

  This week?

• 1:30:45Rayna Greenberg?

  She mentioned our book that we are gonna do, and she said, I said, the minute you get married.

• 1:30:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  We already have it. We've got it. It's in the works. Okay, guys, girlsgottaeat.com, tickets to our live shows in New York and LA in December. Girls Gotta Eat Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. You guys have to come. You have to come. TikTok, I'm Ash Hess, Raina is Raina Duck Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend, and we will see you Thursday.

• 1:31:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Get fired. Have a good week.

• 1:31:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Bye.