Cas Holman (on being playful)

Cas Holman (Playful: How Play Shifts Our Thinking, Inspires Connection, and Sparks Creativity) is a toy creator, play designer, and author. Cas joins the Armchair Expert to discuss creating modular ecosystems of play in her toys, studying in the rainforest as a Banana Slug, and her gender-bending appearance on Maury Povich. Cas and Dax talk about learning how to both fabricate and tell a story in design school, instilling ideals with her adventure playground, and the twelve different play types for adults and children. Cas explains why the subway is such a safe space to cry, how great innovation comes from play, and that continuing to play is also a powerful form of resistance. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Barbara Walters.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 0:08Dax Shepard?

  Spent a minute. Uh, today we have, um, a very interesting guest. Uh, Kaz Holman, uh, she is a play designer and, uh, RISD was a RISD professor.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Ooh, very fancy.

• 0:24Dax Shepard?

  Which I'm embarrassed, I didn't know about RISD until we started doing this show. Remember we had a guest that was a RISD and you were like, this is shameful that you don't know what RISD is. But now I do.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Now you do.

• 0:32Dax Shepard?

  Um, she has a book out now called Playful, playful ding ding ding playful. How play shifts our thinking inspires connection and sparks creativity. You know, the second I saw playful, I was like, let's get Kaz in here.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  I know, it's very us.

• 0:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Please enjoy Kaz Holman. This episode of Armchair Expert is presented by Apple Pay. You know, holiday shopping can be a hassle, but Apple Pay makes it so much easier. Whether you're shopping online or in store, look for the Apple Pay button or contactless symbol at checkout. No more digging for your wallet or filling out long online checkout forms. It works at millions of places, including stores, websites and apps. This means you can spend less time at checkout and more time finding the perfect gifts. Pay the Apple way, terms apply. We get support from Quince.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait.

• 1:33Dax Shepard?

  I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my season. Give me the layers, give me the boots, give me a reason to wear something other than a T-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince because fall is when your wardrobe actually has to show up. And everything at Quince is 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We're talking a hundred percent Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at $60.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  $60, $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing, gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is because they go straight to the factories. They skip the middlemen and they just hand you the savings. The stuff isn't Trendy, it's the kind of pieces you grab over and over because they work every time.

• 2:14Dax Shepard?

  The 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters for me are it. When I look at Steve McQueen, this man owned a couple of sweaters he wore all the time and he looks iconic.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  It's a uniform.

• 2:24Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  And Quince isn't just about the clothes. They have hotel quality bedding, cookware, bath essentials, thoughtfully designed furniture. You can really go there and outfit your entire apartment or house. So if you're in need of any kind of fall refresh at home, too, same quality, same attention to detail for every corner of your life.

• 2:42Dax Shepard?

  Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. We get support from AG1. Fall is that time when your body and mind are getting ready for the winter. You're settling in, bracing for the cold. Your body's already running a deficit from the shorter days and broken sleep patterns. You don't want a nutrient deficit stacked on top of that, too.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  That's where your AG1 routine earns its spot. It's not fixing your sleep or your alarm time. It's giving your body what it needs so the dark mornings don't tank you before you even start. One scoop cold water every morning before anything else.

• 3:31Dax Shepard?

  AG1 Next Gen has 75 plus ingredients, vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, superfoods, backed by four separate gold standard clinical trials. Key nutrient levels improved with three months of consistent use.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  That's the part people miss. It's not a one day fix. It's what happens when you stay consistent.

• 3:49Dax Shepard?

  It's an easy, everyday thing. I've added it to my morning routine and I'm gonna tell you, I actually love the taste of it. It's like Pavlovian. I drink it and I know, mm, I'm gonna get that little vitamin buzz.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Well, that's also the thing. When you do it first thing in the morning, you already feel kind of self-esteem because you're like, I already did something good for myself.

• 4:06Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Go to drinkag1.com/dax and for a limited time, get a free immunity bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/dax. And after checkout, be sure to let them know that Armchair Expert sent you.

• 4:49Dax Shepard?

  Hi, Max.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  Nice to meet you.

• 4:50Dax Shepard?

  Nice to meet you. Welcome.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Thank you for the hug.

• 4:52Dax Shepard?

  Of course.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  I brought you, I here have kids, so

• 4:56Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  I have a bigger toy.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Toy box.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  I have toys for everybody and then for you, for the kids.

• 5:02Dax Shepard?

  Thank you so much. Not only do I have kids, but they're very up your alley kids.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Because they play?

• 5:07Dax Shepard?

  They play like motherfuckers. They are playing machines.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  We have adult toys. I said I think we should unbox on air.

• 5:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great, great, great, great.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's hilarious.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:17Dax Shepard?

  Gemo?

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Gemo.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Gemo.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, like.

• 5:19Dax Shepard?

  Gemo.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Gemo. I'm gonna open it.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Like it's a genetically modified organism.

• 5:23Dax Shepard?

  I know everything about these. Do you want me to tell you as you unopen them?

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 5:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Why have colors? They're based on bone marrow. That was the inspiration. Also, she thought about color coding the magnets so that you would always know which ones stick together. And then she thought, why not let the kids discover this?

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Right? Thank you very much.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  Ah! In life, sometimes you are confronted by things that you don't know what to do with and you kind of like can flow with it. So

• 5:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Why not? Unexpected.

• 5:49Dax Shepard?

  They're mildly perverse, which I like.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:52Dax Shepard?

  Would you agree, Monty? Isn't there something just a little bit like, ooh?

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. I love it.

• 5:58Dax Shepard?

  In a wonderful way.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  External organ style?

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 6:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they're tactile.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  I'm gonna grab the mic.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm gonna break rule number one. I don't even know what it is, but I'm gonna ask, how do you win this?

• 6:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, well, yeah, that's a perfect setup.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  I wonder if that has anything to do with your adulthoodness.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  I wonder.

• 6:18Dax Shepard?

  You know what else these are? They're very Sussian.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, they are.

• 6:21Dax Shepard?

  I was just reading last night, all the places you'll go to my 10-year-old.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Oh, nice.

• 6:25Dax Shepard?

  And I was looking at the drawings. They're so imaginative and creative. They don't resemble anything you're used to seeing, nor do they even necessarily make sense structurally. There's so much liberty taken by him that's so fun.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  In his drawings, you can see that he's playing. You can tell when he might start a line and not know where it's going. And so I think that for him, drawing was probably kind of free play. I don't know this. I haven't done a deep dive into the process.

• 6:51Dax Shepard?

  I have the same conclusion. It's like, I don't think he sat down to go like, I'm gonna make an elephant with a flagpole. I think he just started drawing and then there was a flag. Then there's a kid with a bugle.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  You can tell when someone loves what they do or when it's play for them. The line looks different and the drawing looks different.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  This is fun.

• 7:09Dax Shepard?

  Now, here's where we'll bump up against. So we'll have our own isms, Monty, with this book Playful.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Oh, great.

• 7:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we'll bring to the table our own isms. And one would be for me, right away, it's not OCD, it's OCDP.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  We learned.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 7:24Dax Shepard?

  Do you know what OCDP is?

• 7:25Speaker 02

  I know that there's different branches of internal outward facing.

• 7:29Dax Shepard?

  I was using it wrong and it was kind of offensive, which is I would describe my preference for things being right angled as my OCD. But that's not OCD.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  That's just good craft.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  That's just being meticulous.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Tidy guy.

• 7:44Dax Shepard?

  The distinction is, is it in keeping with your morals? If it is, it's not OCD. OCD is, I'm afraid I'm gonna molest a kid. I'm afraid I'm gonna kill someone. I'm afraid I'm gonna drive myself into a concrete barrier. These compulsive thoughts that are actually in great discord with your moral values. But like, people who are just neat freaks and they go, oh, I'm OCD, but they also agree that you should be neat.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  And probably not disrupting their lives.

• 8:08Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 8:09Dax Shepard?

  Other than maybe they have to clean more than. So anyways, but I do have a good degree of like, so right now, huh, I like even things.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:17Dax Shepard?

  One's inherently left out.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  I know, I noticed that too.

• 8:20Dax Shepard?

  What will I do with this errant?

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Well, and that's where, so GMO likes to live in its environment. The errant one may go and find something to hang out with.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Right? So like, yours grabbed your microphone.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, I shouldn't let him stay there. I feel bad. I pulled him off.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  That extra limb gets to find a place and then live there and become part of it.

• 8:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  This is dangerous.

• 8:44Dax Shepard?

  It is. I know. I'm afraid I'm not gonna concentrate on you at all.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  When I first designed it, there were a few other systems. It was part of, I called it the modular ecosystem.

• 8:52Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  So it wasn't about each of them living independently. It was like, they were all codependent. You know, maybe it's parasitical, maybe it's.

• 8:58Dax Shepard?

  Let's say symbiotic.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Symbiotic.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, we don't like codependence here in.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  That was a different episode.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  They need each other. Gimo needs to be part of its environment. It seeks to live in balance.

• 9:12Dax Shepard?

  I love it.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  This is really cool.

• 9:14Dax Shepard?

  You're from Northern California. We're roughly the same age.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:17Dax Shepard?

  It sounds like we grew up similarly in that I was completely unsupervised until 6:30 PM when my mom got home from work.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:25Dax Shepard?

  Also, not a great student.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  I did well because I was smart, but then I went to college and that's where I realized I was a terrible student. I only did well in high school because high school was kind of easy.

• 9:35Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Where did you go to college?

• 9:37Speaker 02

  UC Santa Cruz.

• 9:38Dax Shepard?

  I mean.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Banana slugs.

• 9:39Dax Shepard?

  I could have guessed that. I mean, I'm mad at myself. I didn't guess that.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  I really, I reek of it.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  What's banana slugs mean?

• 9:45Speaker 02

  That's our mascot.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 9:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, so no grades.

• 9:48Dax Shepard?

  Pass, fail.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  No grades.

• 9:50Dax Shepard?

  Banana slug mascot.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  But there were no grades at the time, but I still did terribly.

• 9:54Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  I just was like, wait, study on command? I didn't know how to do that. I was not going to hold still and read a whole book in one night. In school, I learned how to do school.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  And then had a kind of a lack of foundational understanding of how to do rigor.

• 10:10Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. And what did you major in at UC Santa Cruz?

• 10:14Speaker 02

  I started in sciences. I dropped out after two years because I lost all my scholarships and I went and lived in the Galapagos Islands for a year and a half.

• 10:22Dax Shepard?

  All right.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  Chasing iguanas and learning about biodiversity.

• 10:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, just that.

• 10:28Dax Shepard?

  This is where Darwin took the HMS Beagle?

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 10:31Dax Shepard?

  Did you do mushrooms in the redwoods up in Santa Cruz?

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Started, but I didn't do great in undergrad. Fairy Village, did you spend time in Santa Cruz?

• 10:39Dax Shepard?

  I went up there and bought a half pound of mushrooms and we spent a few days there. And then my best friend and I did a couple of different walks through the redwoods on lots of mushrooms. And I was just talking about mushroom journeys with somebody and I said, I think my all time favorite of all time was the redwoods in Santa Cruz.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:53Dax Shepard?

  Very fun.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Lots of really good fairies there who really want to help you have a wonderful time on mushrooms. No interest in you going to class.

• 11:02Dax Shepard?

  No, no, no. And those trees are very much involved as well.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  The redwoods are, and the campus is in the redwoods. Between classes, you walk through the redwood forest.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  That's incredible.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Which could be really grounding or also really distracting.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  You would rather go hang out in the moss.

• 11:19Dax Shepard?

  So after Galapagos, where do we go? We ultimately must get a degree because we become a professor at some point.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. I've kind of adventured my way into figuring out a way to be who I am and also be gainfully employed. So from Galapagos, I went back to school and was like, I'm going to finish this. I want to figure out what my own thing is. Also, because being surrounded by scientists who are so passionate about the research they were doing and about the work, I wanted that for myself. I was pretty bad at science for the same reason I was bad at a lot of school. Doing something the same way twice was just not interesting.

• 11:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  So I went back to UC Santa Cruz and eventually finished in fine art sculpture and feminist theory.

• 11:59Dax Shepard?

  OK, and you leave there and then do you do graduate school?

• 12:03Speaker 02

  No, I was a chef.

• 12:05Dax Shepard?

  OK.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  All 300 grad.

• 12:07Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  I worked in a diner, like literally the diner in the bus station.

• 12:12Dax Shepard?

  Whoa. Oh, wow.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  Flipping eggs, I was a short order cook. But then worked my way up, moved to San Francisco, was in a great kitchen, this place called Hawthorne Lane. And my three month review came and they said, we want to promote you. And I was like, I quit.

• 12:26Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God, wow. You're really hard to pin down. I know.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  I was like, no.

• 12:31Dax Shepard?

  I was a guidance counselor. I'd be like, I give up. I don't know. Just fucking. Or your parents. I think you get the perfect mom, though, for this journey. It seems from the doc.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  She's nervous. She's been nervous from the start. She rolls with it and tries, but yeah, she's always worried in a very protective way.

• 12:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  And in ways that are supportive of me as a human, but also not supportive of the fact that I was weird and queer. And the artist thing is hard for poor families.

• 12:59Dax Shepard?

  Yes, of course.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Like for a family who's like, you're smart. We want you to succeed. We want you to do better than we are.

• 13:07Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  It was all concern. I just want you to have an easier life. This was so many conversations we had, really, really hard conversations with my mom were about. She just wanted to be easier, even me being queer. She was like, I don't want that for you because your life is going to be hard.

• 13:20Dax Shepard?

  Right, yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  It would be so much harder for me to live as somebody I'm not.

• 13:24Dax Shepard?

  Pretend, yes.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Her biggest struggle for so many years, raising two kids alone, was money. So she was like, both of you are smart and you're going to go on and have jobs and not worry about money. Eventually, to answer your question five steps ago, I thought, I have a degree. At that point, I Kind of had graduated from UC Santa Cruz. I may have had like two credits missing.

• 13:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Which was very disappointing.

• 13:49Dax Shepard?

  It's not a lot of credits missing.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  It's not very many credits missing. I still walked. My mom did notice that in the booklet of the graduates of 1992, or whatever it was, 94 numbers, there were the graduates. And then she was like, weird, where is Cass? And then there's the people who will graduate in the winter.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  And then it was seniors also participating.

• 14:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Interesting. Oh, my God.

• 14:16Dax Shepard?

  Well, it's rare that you can say someone did a ceremony ceremonially.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Oh, true.

• 14:21Dax Shepard?

  Like you were just kind of, it was like pageantry. You weren't really graduating, but you were participating in the ceremony.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  I was participating.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I have a recurring dream all the time that somehow, I don't know what happened. Everyone graduated, but I forgot to like get some credits I was supposed to. It's a recurring dream.

• 14:39Dax Shepard?

  I have the same one. I'm finding out, oh, yeah, they let you walk, but you were supposed to make up two credits.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  And did you both officially graduate?

• 14:47Dax Shepard?

  We did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we did. There's no foundation for this fear.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  It's so weird. I wonder what it means.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  There's the performance of it, and it often doesn't matter. What does it mean to like go to school? What does it mean to graduate? Being there is such a big part of it. So you can feel like I am just finished with this experience. But that doesn't mean that on the books, the bureaucratic end is finished.

• 15:08Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Right, so maybe this is like a dream. I'm gonna go ahead and just take a stab at some dream analysis right now.

• 15:14Dax Shepard?

  Please do.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  For no reason ever, absolutely outside of my expertise. I guess not, it's play, right?

• 15:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  And say that there's a disconnect between the experience and the bureaucracy. So you're like, is there some part of what I'm doing well and how I'm succeeding? Right? Because you're graduated in the dream. It's not in line with a bureaucratic ideal that...

• 15:36Dax Shepard?

  When you set your sights on something and it was challenging and you spent years working towards it, I think it's natural that you accumulate. Some anxiety around that topic. I have dreams where I show up on a set and I'm quickly realizing, oh, you're directing this. Oh, I haven't read the script.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Wait, is that a dream?

• 15:56Dax Shepard?

  That's a dream.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 15:57Dax Shepard?

  I have, we're currently.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Friend.

• 15:59Dax Shepard?

  But I have no anxiety as a director in real life.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:03Dax Shepard?

  None. I love being on a set. I'm quite confident. But in these dreams, I somehow have been directing something I haven't read the script of yet.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:11Dax Shepard?

  And I'm panicked.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  It's a similar thing.

• 16:13Dax Shepard?

  I tell my kids when they have nightmares, your dreams and your nightmares are this beautiful way of your brain telling you what you care about. Because if you didn't care about it, you wouldn't be fearful it's gonna go away. So if you look at it, it's just like, oh, it's a reminder of what I cherish. It's kind of sweet.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like it's kind of more like, I forgot something important. Oh, my God, how this happened. This was really important and I didn't do it. Yeah, it's anxiety for sure.

• 16:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  I think.

• 16:37Dax Shepard?

  I'm just curious, do you start work as a designer before you start teaching?

• 16:42Speaker 02

  When I stopped cooking, I wanted an office job. I'd never worked in an office.

• 16:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  And I think I was 25 or 24 or something at that point. So I went to a temp agency. And at that point, I had a college degree theoretically, but I'd never worked in an office. I had to take typing in high school, but I intentionally did really poorly because I didn't want to be a secretary. That was the job.

• 17:06Dax Shepard?

  You were rebelling.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  In 1990, computers were not part of my life.

• 17:11Dax Shepard?

  Right, right.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Or I never imagined typing would be about anything other than administration. So they were like, you don't have any experience with anything that relates to this.

• 17:21Dax Shepard?

  You're kind of useless to any employer.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  I was like, but I have a degree, so office job, right? So I was able to get a couple of different placements through this temp agency. One was with AIDS Walk, a nonprofit. And there were a couple of other nonprofits where the work itself wasn't difficult, but the emotional attachment to what the work was about.

• 17:37Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  I was like, I am too sensitive for this. I don't need to cry after a day's work in an office about the bigger picture of the work we're doing. So I was learning a lot about what kind of work I could do. And I wound up with this company called CRI. They were a high-end furniture company. Long story short. I realized what design was and I was like, oh, I want to be a designer. And also it kind of started to make sense with what I was doing in my art in the meantime, because I'd been performing a lot.

• 18:06Dax Shepard?

  You were doing drag. Had you already been on Maury Povich? That's coming.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:09Dax Shepard?

  You had already been on Maury Povich.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Whoa, tell us that.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Maury happened while I was working with this high end, with Herman Miller.

• 18:14Dax Shepard?

  Because Maury had a segment, is it a guy or a girl?

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, is it a man or a woman?

• 18:19Dax Shepard?

  A man or a woman. And then people would come out, be men or women or people in drag, and then the audience, they voted, who voted?

• 18:26Speaker 02

  The audience screamed, it's a man, it's a woman.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  It was a nightmare.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Did you sign up for this?

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Because it was like a free trip to New York, yes.

• 18:37Dax Shepard?

  And your hobby at that time was drag, right? You were performing in San Francisco.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, all of the people around me that were performing at this club, they also did it the other way. So some of the drag queens would go and they wanted drag kings. So an audience screaming, it's a man, it's a woman.

• 18:52Dax Shepard?

  Okay, and what was the verdict?

• 18:54Speaker 02

  I passed.

• 18:55Dax Shepard?

  Meaning?

• 18:56Speaker 02

  They thought it was a man.

• 18:57Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  And also it was just a testament to how dumb gender is, or how dumb needing to know is. Because they had a bunch of kind of misfits, which is and male presenting trans people. And then I was like kind of drag king, but also gender schmender. And then they had these, I can best describe them as really sweet gay boys, who were drag performers, but their drag was as women.

• 19:20Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  So they would kind of make them look like women and then put a mustache on them.

• 19:26Dax Shepard?

  So interesting.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  In order to try to trick the audience into thinking that they were.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  This is so layered, oh my god, oh my god.

• 19:32Speaker 02

  The whole thing was just like.

• 19:33Dax Shepard?

  They had to keep ratcheting up the stakes.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Did you leave and were you like, what?

• 19:37Speaker 02

  I mean, while we were there, we were like, what is happening? It was one of their higher grossing shows or bigger audience shows. So we spent three days getting costumes and they took us shopping to put us in gowns, because in the end we were supposed to be exposed for what we really were.

• 19:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's so 90s.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  It is, it is so 90s, oh my god.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  That was a whole experience.

• 19:58Dax Shepard?

  Did you watch the Jerry Springer documentary that was on Netflix?

• 20:00Speaker 02

  No.

• 20:01Dax Shepard?

  Fascinating.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Okay, I'll watch that one.

• 20:03Dax Shepard?

  It's so fun to watch because I'm regularly having to. Moments where there's such a disconnect from what I lived through and seemed completely normal. And now in this vantage point, it's like, what was going? So I'm watching and I'm remembering that I watched it. It was like, it was over the top, but also it wasn't insanity. But now when I'm watching, I'm like, oh, the show was just straight insanity. It was like one hour of insanity on TV every day.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  And maybe it led up to reality TV in a way, right? They're kind of instigating fights.

• 20:28Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  That was where we were kind of play testing reality TV.

• 20:32Dax Shepard?

  Who's the dad? Well, I wonder how that'll go.

• 20:36Dax Shepard?

  Get two men out there being potentially emasculated on television. I wonder what'll happen. I wonder if they'll fight each other.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  It's like pre-internet, knowing that outrage sells.

• 20:49Dax Shepard?

  They stumbled upon it. I bet I would watch the Maury Povich thing and be like, what is going on? But I know when I was in the 90s watching, I was like, oh, fun. I wonder, oh.

• 21:02Dax Shepard?

  Let's find out.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Originally, they didn't want me to break dance because they're like, that's too weird. So it'll be too obvious.

• 21:09Dax Shepard?

  Cass is a great break dancer.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Cool. I did the worm. I had this really dramatic entrance. I didn't know what music. They couldn't get my music cleared. So they're like, we'll just play some music. I was like, okay.

• 21:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay, sorry. That was just a very fun story I learned about you. So you're at CRI?

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were very supportive of me going on Maury Povich. They shut the office down to watch. I had never felt so seen. I was like, you want to what? How's this going to go? Because I also felt like I was having to pass as an office person or as a business person in ways.

• 21:41Dax Shepard?

  Corporate America person.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. And my friend, Lady Sergio and I, who was my drag girlfriend, we both worked there. So they loved us for who we were, but we were still kind of like, what kind of code switching do we have to do?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 21:53Dax Shepard?

  How far can we actually live out loud here?

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that was proof, in fact, that I could be exactly all of it. It was really, really nice. And so when I went back to school, that was for design. So I went to Cranbrook, also no grades, very open ended.

• 22:08Dax Shepard?

  Where's Cranbrook?

• 22:08Speaker 02

  Outside of Detroit. It's in Bloomfield Hills.

• 22:11Dax Shepard?

  My sister went to the high school there.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:13Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. Bloomfield Hills. The campus is gorgeous.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  Beautiful, yeah. And there's just a grad program there. That's really small, but very craft based. Like, everybody has a studio. No classes, no grades. You're just making art and having critique.

• 22:26Dax Shepard?

  Wow, how cool.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  And like, reading groups and things like that.

• 22:30Dax Shepard?

  Are you learning the history of industrial design and all these different things? Is there any history being taught or technique?

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the technique, it was all peer to peers. For example, I had a project that I needed a welded part. So I went to a friend that I'd met at lounge. There was a lounge where everybody, once a week, would hang out. And I approached my friend Vivian and was like, hey, will you help me weld these chair legs? And I'll teach you how to make a mold for that weird silicone thing you're trying to do. And she was like, yes. And so it was all very collaborative in that way. Yeah, it was great.

• 23:01Dax Shepard?

  So you got out of there. At some point, you find yourself employed at a design place. And they're using you as like, let's pull Castin and get an off the wall take on this, yeah?

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Similar to in the other office job. And this was at Rockwell Group, very high end, really successful architect in New York. With all kinds of projects. I was working on a playground and they do hotels and lots of restaurants. Nice. All kinds of projects, all over the world. So that was really fun and tons of people.

• 23:27Dax Shepard?

  Inspiring people, I'm sure you were working with?

• 23:29Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, really inspiring. There were like 250 people up until 2008. So it was also kind of how I got to learn how design works as an industry. Not as much industrial design.

• 23:41Dax Shepard?

  But like workflow of it, right? From idea to production to installation.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  And from my studio leader, kind of learning how to pitch an idea and tell a story and work with clients and things. So that was all really fun. And the playground that ultimately I got to work on was kind of it. It's in the South Seaport area, kind of down near Battery Park City.

• 24:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  For that, we wound up inventing the big blue blocks. Yeah. Have you played with those or are you a kid?

• 24:07Dax Shepard?

  I've seen them, I haven't played with them.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  I'm sure there are places in LA that have them. A lot of children's museums have them.

• 24:13Dax Shepard?

  So you know your standard block set? The wooden block sets with the triangle and the square and the circle, right? They were just very exaggerated size versions.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  What we wanted was that the kids could design the playground.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Because you could move them and stuff.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  And I was kind of like, kids are gonna love a playground because A, it's for them.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  B, there's other kids there and mostly they can run and slide and do all things. So we were thinking about why do they all kind of look alike, like these pipe and platform. I think they look like scaffoldings and also sometimes a little bit like jails. And so we were trying to think about how it can look different. And then I realized, who cares if it looks different? What's the play experience of the kid? And also, why are we designing it? What if the kids could design it? And so not just as a process for this one playground, I was like, what if the playground itself is a thing that kids are designing by playing there?

• 25:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, altering it, moving it, shaping it.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Really inspired by adventure playgrounds, which are junk playgrounds.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, big in the UK.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so part of what we were trying to balance is this was a neighborhood that we had a certain aesthetic expectation.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  So giving them a junk playground was not an option. However, we wanted to figure out what's less visually messy and also kind of easier to maintain version of a adventure playground. So these big blue blocks are like a high-density foam. They feel like a yoga block or something. So theoretically, there's hundreds of them. And every day that the kids show up at the playground, it's a different playground. They do what they need to do. So they have so much more agency.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  In their play, they feel really powerful because they're like, I made this giant thing that's bigger than me. Those were kind of ideals that also were part of GMO, not the scale. But so I was starting to kind of figure out, oh, here are all of these different ways to instill some of these ideals where there's room in the object for children to invent what it is and imagine what it is. Because increasingly, toys are being licensed characters. There's these beloved characters and you can figure out what Spider-Man is gonna do today, but it's still Spider-Man.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:09Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  And while you're developing your own identity, what if you could be like exploring identity through the toys you're playing with and not have it already have one based on the story that you were given.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Which, again, adults wrote.

• 26:21Dax Shepard?

  Well, I think this would be a good time to explain. This is, in my mind, where you're starting to form a more cohesive theory on play in general, which is you start thinking, I'm not designing a toy, I'm trying to design something that will Facilitate play.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not really about the toys necessarily. Just as a designer, I think I like to be kind of formally agnostic. If the goal, and this is also kind of named by function. So there's this candle right here and I could say, let's design a new candle. I'm like, well, all right, what's the goal of the candle? Is it to light a room? Is it to make it not smell bad?

• 26:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Is it decor? So we know that you're really fancy and cool because it's a black candle and it probably smells something like cedar.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:04Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Maybe some musk in there.

• 27:06Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  Pinocchio.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, wow, yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  So is it a status symbol? So you can think of like, what's the actual function of that candle right now? And so, starting from that, instead of starting with the archetypical way that we do that, which would be candle, right? So if we were to redesign a way to light the room, that might be like, let's put a hole in the ceiling or let's get a bunch of fireflies in here.

• 27:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you give a great example. You'll say to kids that I wrote down that I like, which is if you tell kids, build a car, we know what they're going to build versus build a way to get to school, which is really fun.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, imagine a way to get to school. Then you're going to have dragons and unicorns.

• 27:43Dax Shepard?

  Poly systems and zip lines.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  And a river.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:48Dax Shepard?

  Well, I want to take a lazy river to school.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 27:51Dax Shepard?

  Ah, if you could get in there too. You know, they do these design communities and they're mostly kind of vomitous, the concept. Maybe just because no one's done one right. But if the entire way you got through this community was a web of interconnecting lazy rivers and you traveled solely by lazy river.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:08Dax Shepard?

  I would buy a home in that design community.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  I understand that.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  Everything would change if we wanted to get coffee on the way.

• 28:15Dax Shepard?

  It'd be docks everywhere, yeah.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  I'm such a boring adult because I'm like, oh, STDs.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  Well. From a river?

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it happens. They get transported through these lazy rivers in colleges.

• 28:27Dax Shepard?

  I think men tell, I think men tell their wives they got an STD from the lazy river, but I don't think that's how they got it.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  Can that be? I love that as you're like, yeah, but STDs. Like at every turn, you'll be like, where should we go on vacation? Well, you know who doesn't have STDs?

• 28:45Dax Shepard?

  Galapagos Island. Zero incident rate of STDs.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  No, but I do think like that very adult-y. But what about the risk and what about whatever? It's so stupid.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and maybe it's like the hierarchy of risk. There's a risk every time you leave the house, of course. There's risk if you don't leave the house.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Are you risking physical harm versus mental harm?

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Right? If you don't leave, you're safe. But are you safe? Then you're gonna be maybe kinda sad, and that's not safe.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Exactly, yes.

• 29:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so here's where we get to our first little area where I do wanna challenge a little bit.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:17Dax Shepard?

  So what I totally love about your approach, and what I think is so consistent with all of us as humans, is in the best-case scenario, we adopt theories and we adopt work strategies to kind of address the needs that weren't not met for us as kids, or issues we had personally. And I think our work ends up reflecting a bit of just who we are. So what you scream and what I like is, I'm not a right angle. And your work is very much like, don't give kids instructions on how to build this Lego set. And I think that's very valid. And what I would want is for there to be, that is an option.

• 30:01Dax Shepard?

  But also, there are future engineers, there are autistic kids, there are all these other kids that are like, no, they're fucking right angles. So the only thing I worry about is like, when anyone shows up with any, and this goes into parenting strategies, classroom strategies, all of it, I fear attempts to unify us, and we're un-unifiable. And we're so different. So then the challenge to me becomes in a classroom, on a playground. So Monica loves following directions, and she loves, she said, how do I win this thing, right? It was like a joke, and it wasn't a joke.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  It wasn't a joke.

• 30:31Dax Shepard?

  And that's what satiates her, and that's what really makes her feel safe. And then I'm more like you. I'm like, fuck that boring way. Someone else already did it that way, so I don't wanna do it that way. So do you have an appreciation for the other versions? Or just a complete distaste for them all?

• 30:46Speaker 02

  No, absolutely, and thank you. That's kind of the point that I get into in the book, is that there's a misconception that free play means no rules at all. Part of- What happens when we are encouraged or allowed to free play as children means that we are in touch with what do I need right now? What do I want to do right now? And then we're skilled in going to find it. And one of the things, and I do this a lot as a design professor, is help people find their own constraints. I love constraints. Again, the idea with open-ended is like, no constraints. It's like, well, you start with no constraints and then you find your own based on what you need. Or if anything's an option, then everything's an option, which is totally overwhelming and absolutely paralyzing, right? So the thing about unstructured play for kids and open-ended play for kids

• 31:30Speaker 02

  is they learn how to find and make their own structure. And also with Rigamajig, I talk about it as being open-ended and unstructured, but it's not really. The wood, the materials, nuts and bolts, those are constraints.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:42Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Those create structure. You don't need instructions. I mean, they could be the constraints, but with the case of Rigamajig or G-Mo, the materiality of it as an object has constraints and structure built in. And especially when there's a system, Rigamajig is a building system. So in figuring out what the system is, you kind of start building something. And then before you know it, you have the beginning of a cart or a monster or like a whirly gig.

• 32:04Dax Shepard?

  Rigamajig, can you see that in your mind? Have you ever seen Rigamajig?

• 32:08Speaker 01

  No, should we open it?

• 32:09Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, it's huge.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  No, you have a small one.

• 32:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I have a small one.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  That's Rigamajig Jr.

• 32:14Dax Shepard?

  But you can tell from this hieroglyphic on the side. So unlike conventional erector sets or these other things, there is no obvious thing that these should be assembled.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  It's not a puzzle.

• 32:27Dax Shepard?

  It's not a puzzle. It seems like a very random grouping of shapes and sizes, but there's infinite ways to assemble these. This is what's in the high line in New York.

• 32:39Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. Dax, can you believe it's already falling?

• 32:49Speaker 01

  All this year's flown by.

• 32:51Dax Shepard?

  I know, right? But fall is my jam. Remember that farmer's market we hit up last weekend?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Yes, all those vendors with their yummy apple ciders and the big pumpkins. I love big pumpkins.

• 33:02Dax Shepard?

  Artisanal apple cider, don't forget. And the smell of fresh baked goods, heaven. But here's what blew my mind. So many vendors accepted Apple Pay.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  It was so convenient. I love Apple Pay. Everywhere I saw the contactless symbol, I just double click the side button on my phone to bring up my card and then just a quick little face ID scan, tap, boom. So easy.

• 33:23Dax Shepard?

  Apple Pay's been my MVP this season to buy festive fall treats and drinks.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  And you know, I'm on a mission to find the best fall themed latte in town. You know this.

• 33:32Dax Shepard?

  I do know that. How's it going? That maple one you were telling me about sounded pretty insane.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  It was so good. And get this, you can also use Apple Pay at lots of cafes, no fumbling for your wallet, just double click, tap and sip.

• 33:45Dax Shepard?

  It works at millions of places, anywhere you see the contactless symbol in stores or see the Apple Pay button online and in apps.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Exactly. Making it easier to enjoy all the fall goodness.

• 33:56Dax Shepard?

  Speaking of which, I'm totally set for Halloween. Apple Pay made it a breeze to purchase the perfect decorations online, right from my iPhone. I just tap the Apple Pay button at checkout, double click to authenticate and boom, payment complete. No long checkout forms, no fuss.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Fall festivities have never been more fun or easy.

• 34:14Dax Shepard?

  Pay the Apple way. Terms apply. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Dax, is there anything better than crawling into a perfect bed on a cold fall night? Candlelit, hoodie on, maybe even some rain outside. The dream.

• 34:31Dax Shepard?

  That's the dream. You just described one of my ideal fall nights.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  I know. And thanks to Helix, my bed actually lives up to the vibe. All I had to do was take the Helix sleep quiz and within two minutes, they matched me to a mattress built for exactly how I sleep. I have a midnight mattress. It also has cooling technology, which I really.

• 34:52Dax Shepard?

  Increasingly so.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  I need it. I have to have it. And I heard that you're supposed to sleep at a cold temp. Or optimal sleep. It's very, very helpful.

• 35:03Dax Shepard?

  She is not wrong. I have one too, and it's been such a game changer for sleep and I love that they make it so easy. Free shipping right to your door and what they're happy with Helix Guarantee, you'll get a full 365 nights to try it. A whole year to live in that cozy. They've got over 20 mattress models, so no matter how you sleep, they've got one for you.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  And it's not just us saying it. Helix has been named the most awarded mattress brand by Forbes, Wired and more. You gotta try it for yourself.

• 35:30Dax Shepard?

  Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site wide. helixsleep.com/armchair. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. We've talked before about Rob building our website on Squarespace and I bring it up again because it's a perfect example of what they do well. Rob had all the pieces, the content, the vision, the ideas, but he needed something to actually take all that and make it public facing and Squarespace was that bridge. Maybe you're in the same spot. You've been developing something, a business, a skillset, a body of work and it's been private. It's been yours, but at some point you're ready to put it out there and

• 36:12Dax Shepard?

  that transition from private to public can feel like a huge leap. Squarespace makes it feel like a step. Beautiful templates, built in SEO, email campaigns, scheduling, analytics, everything you need to go from, I've been working on this to here it is, come find me. All in one place, no code, no stitching together a bunch of different tools. So if you've been sitting on something and waiting for the right moment, this might be it. Head to squarespace.com/dax for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

• 36:49Dax Shepard?

  We are supported by Walden University. You know that feeling when you've been thinking about making a move, going after the degree, the promotion, the thing you keep telling yourself you'll get to someday? Walden University is built for that moment. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working professionals get the W, the knowledge, Skills and the confidence to create real change in their careers and communities. Their programs are designed around your life, not the other way around. With Tempo Learning, available in select programs, there are no rigid schedules or set weekly deadlines. You move at your own pace. And Walden's faculty aren't just academics. They're practitioners who bring real world experience into everything they teach.

• 37:32Dax Shepard?

  From your first class to career coaching and beyond, Walden is your partner the whole way. Take the first step and learn at a pace that works for you. Visit walden.edu. Walden University. Set a course for change. Certified to operate by CHEV. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. October 10th is World Mental Health Day, but you don't need a day on the calendar to give yourself permission to talk to someone. I've been in therapy for a long time and the stuff rattling around in my head always just quiets down the second I say it out loud.

• 38:16Dax Shepard?

  And it doesn't have to be some big life crisis. Maybe it's a work thing that's taking up too much space or hard relationship moment, or just a feeling that something's off. That's enough. That's worth talking about.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  You know, I love therapy more than anything. Gets me through. Often I'll want to cancel because I'm like, I don't really have anything to talk about. And then I'll go and I have some major revelation.

• 38:38Dax Shepard?

  You know, I was just talking to a friend who has just started it. And I said, one of the most powerful elements of it is just hearing yourself say out loud the thing that's been ruminating in your head and how different it sounds once it's out into the world. You gain perspective immediately just by hearing yourself say it.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do.

• 38:54Dax Shepard?

  If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside the US? You can still get 10% off your first month. Do yourself a favor and just try it. Future you will be grateful. Visit betterhelp.com/dax to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com slash DAX.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  When we initially launched it, it was a big pop-up playground. This was such nerdery and it made the project so much harder in a way that I'm like, "Well, that probably wasn't necessary." But we used beams, we recycled industrial pieces from some of the industry that was near the High Line in order to make these toys. So they had, I call them industrial scars, like you could see the remnants of where a bolt was.

• 39:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, cool.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Which again is like the imagination.

• 39:53Dax Shepard?

  Industrial artifacts.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:56Dax Shepard?

  That's very cool. Those are very successful during classrooms and stuff.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  And then Rigamajig Jr. is kind of the home version of that. And the thing, again, similar to with the big blue blocks, it's too big for one child to use alone, so they need each other in a way.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Oh, I like that. It becomes social.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  When we learn to need each other in play, it's a positive association with help and with collaboration and cooperation.

• 40:20Dax Shepard?

  And sharing, credit, learning to share. We made this as opposed to I made this.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's two pulleys. So if you're not using that pulley, can I use the pulley? I gotta go ask. We gotta share resources.

• 40:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay, I want to get into the book, but I just want to tell you a personal anecdote you didn't ask for. So I work on cars a lot and I also build a lot of things with wood. And for sure, my favorite part of any project is I get to a point where I do not have the part I need. And then I start going like, "What do I have in my garage?" And I start going through drawers and I'm like, "Oh, if I put that bolt through there." That, to me, is the euphoria of building. So I'm doing two things, right? It's like, one is a carburetor has to go together in a certain way. And a gasket goes there, but could a Cracker Jack's box be a gasket? The gasket's just cardboard. And that's when I just love it to no end, is when I have to improvise and solve it,

• 41:13Dax Shepard?

  even within the framework of the thing has to be structurally sound. So I just very much relate to your agenda.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  My experience of that moment exactly is easy as boring. I could just go and get that gasket, but I'm drawn to, compelled by, and intuitively, I want to make this other thing work.

• 41:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  I want to see how many rubber bands I can Wrap around it instead of go and get the right gasket for this.

• 41:38Dax Shepard?

  Well, there's like a steam building in that for me, which is like, oh, AI can't be stopped. Even if I don't have the right thing.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  And flow, right? When you're in the flow of something to leave to go get that part.

• 41:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Takes you out of the flow of that you're in it and you've lost track of time.

• 41:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  That's also part of what play is. When you lose track of time, you're so immersed in the thing, you're doing it because you love it. It's pleasurable.

• 42:01Dax Shepard?

  OK, so your book is playful. How play shifts our thinking, inspires connection and sparks creativity. So when this came through, we get an email of the different experts that are potentially guests. And the thing we say most on here is playful.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  We're very attracted to playful.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Oh, nice.

• 42:18Dax Shepard?

  I say it all the time, like, I'm here on this planet to play. I'll have to do some stuff I don't want to, but my primary mission is to play.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 42:25Dax Shepard?

  So you define right out of the gates 12 types of play. And we don't have to go through all 12, but I'm wondering if you could tell us about a few of them. And then I will tell you the ones I like so much.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, the ones I define early in the book are play types that I've used. And I think are not universally, there's different versions of them, but that are used to understand and observe children's play. But they aren't called children's play types, they're just kind of play types. Because play most often is associated with children and the people who work with play are usually working with children. And so I had been using these play types, so things like rough and tumble play, locomotor play, creative play, which is kind of building things, pretend play, which is kind of performing or going into other worlds.

• 43:09Dax Shepard?

  We like communication play.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  And yeah, obviously you all take part in children's play types, that was probably like social play.

• 43:16Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. And one that's listed that I was grateful for is deep play.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Deep play is one that I think really challenges the definition and the idea of play for a lot of people.

• 43:26Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Because play doesn't always look like big gestures of joy and celebration. Because in order to play, we kind of have to trust either our environment, ourselves, or the world around us and the people we're with, we become really vulnerable. And so children, if they're in. Play are touching on things that are something they have to work out. Maybe it's something difficult in their household that's going on and they're trying to, through play, understand it, or maybe even heal from it.

• 43:57Dax Shepard?

  Or even, we walk around with all this fear, so it's like, I might climb that rock. I'm afraid of that rock. I'm afraid of falling. I'm gonna somehow play my way into interacting with this fear.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and how can you understand or get through your fears if you don't confront them? And it's safest and fun and enjoyable to confront them in play.

• 44:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and play in general, we could just broadly agree with like, it's something that has zero purpose. You're in one of the episodes of Abstract on Netflix. You reference crows finding the lid of a yogurt container, and then putting it on top of a snowy roof, and then sliding down, snowboarding down, then flying back up. And it's like, yeah, crows play. There's no point to that.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Crows can fly. Yeah, exactly. So that's just a novel experience for them. There's been so much science around this, often unfortunately, that used rats. Some of this science makes me a little bit sad when I think about, half of the rats were kind of tortured by being denied anything to play with, or having to be alone, while in the other cages, rats had an enriched environment, which was things to play with. They had each other, they had friends. They're fulfilled. The rats that are alone and don't have toys.

• 45:11Dax Shepard?

  They love drugs.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  They love drugs. Of course they do. They're in trauma. They probably neither, they don't have a drive to survive. They don't solve problems well. Eventually, they stop caring. They just don't eat. They don't want to solve the puzzle in order to get the cracker, because they don't care. They have no drive to thrive. There's a lot of rat studies around this, which makes sense. And then there've been studies that used college students instead of rats.

• 45:34Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Basically the same thing. A little bit less extreme, and not studying the neocortex development in these cases, thankfully. But similarly, college students, there was one study by Alice Eisen, who put students in a room for five minutes with nothing. You're just gonna sit in the desk for five minutes. And then, in the meantime, another group of students had music. And another group of students had music and puzzles. And so those three groups went in and they all did the exact same test in the same way. And the group with nothing did 15% less well than the group that had music. The group with music universally did 15% more problem solving. And then the group that had music and toys did like 40% better than all of the groups. These numbers are gonna be absolutely wrong. But it's something close. And it's in the book.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  Once I write it down, I'm like, good, now it's there. I can forget it forever.

• 46:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  But this is just to say universally, just playing with a toy before you go in to solve a problem made you a better problem solver.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, interesting.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  So there's just, time and time again, we learn ways that play not just helps us have the will to live, but it helps us be more resilient and healthier. And there's all these other physical benefits to even doing play that wasn't necessarily physically engaged.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Not to make it so adult, but I guess that's also sexual role play. There is a lot of figuring out your fears with a safe partner.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  Right. And that's a really good example of, that's a learned taboo. So I start with talking about the children's play types. And then I realized while writing the book that they didn't apply to adults. What's risky for a child isn't risky for an adult.

• 47:10Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  And adults, developmentally, we just need something so much different from play. For that, with as an example, we learn to feel bad about our bodies or feel like we can't be looked at, or this is bad and that's good. So with sexual things especially, we can play through something we need extra because it's been so ingrained in us, what it's supposed to be or what it's not supposed to be.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  In the adult play types, there's kind of misbehavior play.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Or behavior play in general.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  Which you could say all adult play is misbehavior.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  To some extent, because we're kind of not supposed to play.

• 47:46Dax Shepard?

  It's like intrinsically rejecting adulthood to play.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Exactly, which is in itself kind of misbehavior. But with sex, which is, I think, one of the primary places that adults play, we need the trust of ourselves and each other in releasing judgment in order to kind of then get back in touch with who we might be. Before we were taught that it's weird and gross and shameful. And forget about if there's religion involved.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:10Dax Shepard?

  Also, you don't make a meal of this, but I was just thinking about the correlation between when we transition out of children who are expected to play to adults who have responsibilities and perfectionism and all these other obstacles that prevent play. It also is right at the arrival of drinking, drugs, you know, these other offerings that resemble play initially, and I think they become the replacement for play. I think it's a big part of why that thing is so needed for us. It's a break from the adulthood. Yeah, you're making decisions you wouldn't normally make. You're hooking up with folks, you probably, you know, there's a lot happening.

• 48:52Dax Shepard?

  And I just think, while you do wonder if everyone just stayed playing. When someone's newly getting sober, I'm trying to put a positive spin on it. I'll say, the only thing I can tell you that was the reward of it is I did return to 12 years old, where I was excited just to walk outside, leave my house and go fuck around in this world. Cause I had really just turned that all over to show up with a six pack, that does the rest.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  Right. In the book, I tried to talk about how can we, cause booze is also a huge part of adult split, not just that it lubricates play for us, but I looked at and we studied and we tried to figure out, this is my co-writer and I, Lydia Dinworth, she's been on your show, she wrote Friendship.

• 49:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  And she's a science writer, so she's really good at researching and finding and taking scientific studies and, you know, relating them. She and I talked a lot about how do we acknowledge this is an important part of how adults play? And also, how can we take the advantages or what is it about being intoxicated that lets us access play and how can we get there without it?

• 49:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm actually in favor of it as one of the options of play. But I think it very easily becomes the primary option of play and the singular option of play.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Play itself, use that to then you see like conversational play, social play. But what my hope is, and part of what I kind of the story I tell in the book is that we didn't forget how to play. We all still know how to play. We have just learned to not play. And that's from coming up in school. Growing up means growing out of playing, right? So if you think about in school, we're told like, hold still.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Act serious.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Pay attention.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then when you're an adult, I talk about a play voice and an adult voice. And your play voice is like, go do that thing, be silly, dance because you love this song. And your adult voice is like protecting you, right? And it's like, no, you'll look silly, social rejection. And teenagers especially, when we're really attached to and learn that we need to be socially accepted to some extent. And the way that that happens is just so intense. Plague becomes really shameful for a lot of people. So we have to unlearn all of that in order to get back there. And I think that what alcohol often does is gets us there. It's like a shortcut to cutting inhibitions. And so there's exercises in the book, let's just get there without it.

• 51:08Dax Shepard?

  I'd love to go through some of them as they're kind of laid out in the book, if you're open for that. So what are the conditions for play?

• 51:15Speaker 02

  Well, for free play, I am a proponent of free play. And here's just to be clear, I think adults do play a lot. Sports, pickleball, I think conversationally we play. When people are writing, if you're a writer, language or poetry, I think is a really great example.

• 51:30Dax Shepard?

  Debate for some people is play. For other people it's miserable, but for some people it's how they play.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, right now, attention play is really interesting and important for adults because our attention is often kind of by default in our phones or given to other things in a way that we're not as good at hanging out in the moment that you might usually pick up your phone. What is boredom anymore?

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:52Dax Shepard?

  Play is so often the antidote to boredom, but if we don't force ourselves to be bored for minimally five minutes, then we have no reason to require play.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  And our go to in order to avoid boredom is to scroll.

• 52:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  And that's just a bottomless pit of, are you ever gonna find what you're looking for there?

• 52:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Cass, I had such a wake up call this weekend. I had decided on Friday morning, because I don't have to post, I don't have anything for the show. I'm not gonna open Instagram until I have to on Monday. And. I was shamefully embarrassed with how often, I'm not even thinking about it. It's like, I sit on the toilet. It's like, my thumb already knows how to go to that page and click it. And I was like, I'd be halfway through the steps before I go like, oh, we're not looking at that. It was like a full day before I broke just the habitual physicality of it. And then by Sunday, I returned to writing in my memoir. I like had a great day of creativity and I felt way, way better.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:50Dax Shepard?

  I felt so good not knowing what everyone's fighting about.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, and imagine if you had the muscle memory of play instead of phone.

• 52:58Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  I think of my phone as potentially a toy, but I'm like, am I using it as a toy or a tool? Right? I like to use it as a tool. And when it becomes a toy, that's when I'm like, what's in the world around me that I could be playing with instead? For example, my dog.

• 53:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  It's like, hey, he's really good at knocking it out of my phone, knocking it out of my hands. Attention play is really for adults right now. Great. And so, look around, daydream, watch the birds, look at this thing and imagine how it was made. I love the subway. Subway is my primary form of transport. I don't go on my phone on the subway. Increasingly, I am the only one.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  I'm imagining where are they coming from and going to? Or how was that thing made? Or what was that person thinking with those shoes? And I'll do a deep dive and try to figure out what's going on.

• 53:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you have to create a little story that makes them make sense to you visually, which is very fun.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  In the bigger picture, if I were to name by function, that attention play for me in the subway, it's about reconnecting and feeling connected to the people around me, which for me is absolutely essential for my feeling okay. If I were to go and scroll instead, I would be confronted by stories about that it is all the worst and everything is terrible, which things are not great. I think we can all agree. So, I can go in there and lose all faith in humanity. Or I could just look up and be like, here are some people that are having the best days of their lives and the worst days of it. I cry on the subway. I love crying on the subway. Cause actually, I think subway is maybe the only safe place.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  To cry because eventually someone will make eye contact like we see each other.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:36Speaker 02

  I'm reminded that I'm not alone in it.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Everyone's there and they're stuck there.

• 54:40Dax Shepard?

  It's also very good to right size your self obsession in egomaniacal nature. I do remember we traveled everywhere by car when I was a kid. My mom, God bless her, she showed us the country on like 200 bucks. And I'd be sitting in the back of the car and I'd just be watching all the windows that go by as you're driving through Cincinnati. And as a kid, I would just get obsessed with like, well, every one of those windows has someone inside. And every one of those people inside has some dream. And there's so many of us, there's something scary about it. And then there's also something that just right sizes your own importance. It's like, oh yeah, look at all these windows. These are all these people have dreams just like you, or they all have these things just like you. I do think there's something helpful about that.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:25Dax Shepard?

  How do adults stay playful?

• 55:27Speaker 02

  Okay, so for adults, in particular with free play, embracing possibility, which means be open to what you might find at any point. For example, not looking at your phone, look around and be curious, releasing judgment.

• 55:40Dax Shepard?

  Walk us through that one in detail.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  Releasing judgment, so we are our own worst critics. We came up through school and we were extrinsically motivated. Someone told us what to do, they told us how to be good at them. And they told us we needed to be good at them, so our self value got attached to success. So of course, as adults, we're going to be still obsessed with being really productive, which probably means like efficient, you don't waste time, no dilly dallying.

• 56:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, look at all these efficiency gurus that exist.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Oh my God.

• 56:08Dax Shepard?

  And people like worship these people.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  What are we prioritizing, like to what end? And even like as a problem solving, I'm like, but is that a problem? These problems we're solving, first of all, today's solution is tomorrow's problem. Plastic cars, everything that we thought was gonna be, we're solving problems that maybe aren't problems. And we don't know, I try to keep an awareness of what we don't know, but we then have these systems that we're a little bit stuck with. So being playful and approaching things as play will make us more able to kind of shift and be agile when they aren't what we expect or when they don't work out the way that we want.

• 56:40Dax Shepard?

  Because we didn't create a singular definition of what succeeding would be.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  Of what succeeding is, or it has to be this outcome, or it's failures.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  But I could hear some people listening who have these jobs and they have to turn in their thing to their boss on time because if not, they'll get fired. And they're like, I can't dilly-dally. There's no room for that in this life. What is the response to that?

• 57:02Dax Shepard?

  Fuck you.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  No, because even I get it. It's like, we have a show we have to put out at a certain time.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  There's no time. And actually, I think those are the people who often need play the most. Because play is not the antithesis. It can be a mindset. So you can be doing your job playfully and A, lead to different outcomes if that's desired, right? Innovation comes from play.

• 57:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, talk about JPL. I think that's interesting.

• 57:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Caltech's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. They, at some point, were realizing that their engineers that they were hiring were not great problem solvers. And they interviewed them and kind of realized that a lot of them had not been tinkerers. They hadn't played with stuff.

• 57:41Dax Shepard?

  Model airplanes or rockets.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  Or even just like take apart the lawnmower.

• 57:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  And then try to put it back together, or maybe not, or turn it into something else. So they weren't tinkerers. They hadn't used their hands specifically. So they started, in their interview process, starting to filter out based on, did you tinker? But really, what that meant was, are you a playful person? Not only did you play as a child, but do you play now? And it's made a huge difference in the success of how innovative they are, how good they are at problem solving. So there are ways that if somebody is really like, there's no room for this.

• 58:15Dax Shepard?

  They make spreadsheets or an accountant.

• 58:16Speaker 02

  I kind of think spreadsheets can be playful.

• 58:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. I'd love to hear this.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  I had a friend who I worked with for a long time, and she would make really sexy spreadsheets. So we started calling them sex cell spreadsheets because they were like so beautiful. And we were like, yes, oh my God, it feels so good to me. So she loved making, you know, that was kind of her play.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  You just also need an environment where that's okay.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Right, and there can be ways that the work life doesn't change at all, but outside of it, she can kind of let herself play. A lot of it is like, give yourself permission to play.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  And realize that play might look like when you're taking a hike, if it's hot or your friend is slow and kind of annoying you, don't get so hung up on, we're doing this hike, we have to get to the top. I'm so annoyed, oh my God, we only have an hour and I really want to do this. I really want that selfie from the top. So maybe if you were to release judgment and say, we're out here. And also, the third element is reframing success. Is success getting to the top? Or is success that we're hanging out together? So maybe we can just take our time or hang out on that one cliff and throw pebbles at the people coming up the hill.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Shift the goal.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Shift the goal.

• 59:25Dax Shepard?

  Maybe it's starting with like, we can't fail at this. We got together and we're here.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:30Dax Shepard?

  Failure isn't really even a possibility. This is already a big success. We are being social. It's essential for our health.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  It's so natural for adults to be hung up on success. Because 12 years of really intense time and then also college, if you did that, we're told what success looks like. And our self-worth and our value and our own understanding of our intelligence and competence is wrapped up in a success that someone else defined for us. Kids, early on at the playground, that social hierarchy is really different. Because it's going to be the kids who are good at play. They are the coolest ones.

• 1:00:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but if you jumps off the top of the monkey bars, you're like, what the?

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  Exactly. That person is a champion. Or the kid who can paint a weird blotch on the corner with the chalk, figured out that if you add water to chalk, it's like rainbow paste.

• 1:00:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  That is the hero.

• 1:00:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  It changes so fast, I feel like, into the bully becomes the stat. Like, the person who figures out they can be the loudest and meanest.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  Which is such an interesting segue to where we are right now. Because I think we're seeing play get shut down by a bully. Comedy and satire is play. And we have a bully who is shutting down play. And that, first of all, shows the power of play, that play is so threatening that a bully who has the power to do so is gonna shut it down. And it's also a way to kind of remind us that play isn't a thing we do to then be able to be resilient. Yes, play makes us resilient, but play actually is the resistance. By playing, we are continuing to push back on anything that tells us that we need to not be human. Continuing to play is, in fact, also resistance.

• 1:01:11Dax Shepard?

  Well, this is where you get into Man's Search for Meaning, Victor's book. Esther Perel saying eroticism was the quintessential ingredient that allowed these Holocaust survivors to have lives after it. There's a lot of well-documented social science about it's not frivolous, it's not extraneous. It's actually what will allow you to carry on or not. Or to be subjugated or not, or be defeated or not, or to be oppressed or not. These are really core anecdotes to those things.

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think marginalized communities know this well. It was interesting, writing the book, people will say, well, why are you so good at play? You know, I'm kind of like, ah, deep dive into like, why am I gonna play? Well, as a child, you mentioned latchkey kid or just not having adults around? So play was all I did, but also I had a tricky childhood. I didn't know it at the time, but that was how I got through. I'm really grateful that I had a really strong drive to play because I think I would be a really different person if I hadn't played the whole time while all of these tricky things were happening in my childhood.

• 1:02:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  And I see in my adulthood, times that are hard. And I think also in protest and as a queer person, we play. Queers are very good at playing.

• 1:02:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  Because we have to, and it's how we resist.

• 1:02:22Dax Shepard?

  You'll never go to a better Halloween party than West Hollywood. They throw the best one on the planet.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  It's like how we resist. I, two nights ago, was at a unprofessional variety show with chaotic drag performers and comedians and all of us laughing and crying every once in a while because also it was grounded and we're all terrified. It was, I think, reminding us all who we are and that we're gonna be okay.

• 1:02:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I have a personal explanation for it. So I have a best friend I've had since I was 11. We both had dicey childhoods. His was off the charts dicey. And it occurred to me when he and I Have fun. We can have fun in a way that's so elevated. Aaron and I can get to a buffet bar and we can be like, we just found a chest of gold. And my explanation of it is particularly when things are grueling and tough. When these rays of sunshine poke through, they're so powerful relative to the other thing that we learn to just dance in it, fucking grab onto it as hard as we can and just squeeze it for every drop that'll come out of it. We just have a commitment for where like, when

• 1:03:25Dax Shepard?

  it's good, man, let's go. And I think that's part of the recipe.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Recognizing it.

• 1:03:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And if it's essential, you'll do it. That's my explanation of being playful. It was kind of essential. And then I think the pitch would be for someone who doesn't necessarily need relief to still encourage them to be extremely playful, even if they're not necessarily in deep need of relief. Like, it sounds to me like, given your childhood, you needed some relief and the play was the relief.

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think I needed big gesture. I needed to be moving around in my body outside of buildings, exploring, connecting, not knowing what I was around to balance out that school, the actual physical structure that I spent eight hours a day in was really just killing me.

• 1:04:11Dax Shepard?

  Soul killing.

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  Still to this day, when it's a beautiful day out and we watch kids file into a school, I'm just like, and I have kids in my life now, so I'm sometimes the adult who's dropping them off and watching them go inside. And I'm like, trying to feel like this is right, but I'm like, this is wrong. Like, what are we doing?

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  They might like it.

• 1:04:29Dax Shepard?

  Yes, for some people.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  Absolutely. In part because that's where their friends are.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's the most social place. I loved school.

• 1:04:35Dax Shepard?

  Also, again, some people are built for that. That's what they desire. They want the list of things they can accomplish and that's lovely.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  It's a matter of scale. It works for everybody. And like what you brought up, some people want instructions and not everybody wants big loudness. Some kids want to be in a fort.

• 1:04:52Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:04:58Dax Shepard?

  This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts, the stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it, start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  They never are.

• 1:05:41Dax Shepard?

  To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace. And I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex. It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere, whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic. Plus, they have classes with expert instructors

• 1:06:26Dax Shepard?

  and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run. Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com. We get support from our sponsor, Lilly. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight-related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundo or for Glibron. Foundo is a once daily prescription GLP-1 medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep The weight off.

• 1:07:01Speaker 04

  Foundo should not be used with other GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Foundo is safe and effective for use in children. Don't take Foundo if you're allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had majorary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine euplasia syndrome type 2. Stop and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. Serious side effects may include inflamed pancreas and gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant to be, or taking birth control pills, and before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. Taking Foundo with an insulin or sulfonylurea may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and may cause kidney problems. Once Daily Foundo is available by prescription only

• 1:07:43Speaker 04

  in 0.8 milligram, 2.5 milligram, 5.5 milligram, 9 milligram, 14.5 milligram, and 17.2 milligram tablets. Learn more at foundo.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX. Now is perfect to talk to your doctor about Foundo.

• 1:07:59Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Skims. So Monica just informed me that she's a girl's girl, and I nodded like I knew exactly what that meant.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the girls who get it, they get it.

• 1:08:10Dax Shepard?

  OK, but for those of us who are clearly not girls, walk me through it.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  Well, you know how much I love my Skims fleece joggers? Because the plush fleece is so soft, it's cozy, it's really comfortable without feeling too heavy. Well, I went to friend them, and she would not stop talking about how comfy they were. She almost didn't give them back to me, which was upsetting, but I'm a girl's girl, so I let her have it.

• 1:08:31Dax Shepard?

  Great, great, great.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  So the sleep sets are awesome because they are very soft and comfortable, but they're cute. If I'm in my sleep set, I feel fine about going down the street to pick up my food. I'm still looking cute, but I'm comfy and I'm cozy.

• 1:08:46Dax Shepard?

  Roger.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  A really fun thing to do is if you're going on vacation with your girlfriends, to get matching Skims pajamas. I've done this with Callie, and it is so fun. First of all, the pics are so cute. But also, it's just fun and friendship.

• 1:08:59Dax Shepard?

  So a girl's girl is looking out for your friends with better loungewear. I get it. Am I one of your girls now?

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  You are. You and the other girlies can shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcasts in the survey, and be sure to select our show in the drop-down menu that follows.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  The playgrounds that I design and the way that also I think about my own adult summer camp, which I have.

• 1:09:30Dax Shepard?

  You have an adult summer camp?

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  We're playtesting it with friends and a few groups. We've had a few a year for a while. We're getting there. My play last weekend was to dig up the cesspool that had fallen in, and I don't mean a septic tank. It was a cesspool. So we're like getting there. Let's just say. I am aware of what kind of accommodations adults need in order to create the conditions for free play to arise. One of the stories I tell in my book is about my friend Colleen and I, who I think maybe is more like you in her play. And she's also very engineer minded, but we were doing a Lego set together and I was just grabbing pieces and making stuff. We're chatting, catching up, and at some point I realized I can feel her getting more and more annoyed with me. Then there's this kind of deep sigh and I was like, okay, what? What's going on? What?

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  And she was like, you're taking the pieces I need. And I was like, oh, wait, are you following the instructions?

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  And she was like, yes, dude, this is what we're doing. And I was like, huh, are you having fun?

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  Yes, I'm having fun. But it was just like, what?

• 1:10:32Dax Shepard?

  Cass, we're painfully similar. One of our huge debates is we are interviewing this person who is taking on woodworking and they were telling us that they were watching these YouTube tutorials. And I said, why are you doing that? You have a saw, you have the wood.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:46Dax Shepard?

  What reward would there be in having someone tell you how to do it? And Monica was like, what's wrong with you? Of course, that's what he wants to do. He wants to get good at woodworking.

• 1:10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, how's he gonna get good if he doesn't? Also, by the way, we had another person who chopped his hand off doing that. So like, you know, just saying.

• 1:11:01Dax Shepard?

  I don't think a YouTube tutorial would have saved his hand.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  I do. And this is the beauty of being a really curious human. You're like, oh, fascinating, wonderful. Now I understand a little bit more about how you work and we're friends. So this is great. We took a time out and I was like, okay, here, I'll put my pieces back. And we did it together. We followed the instructions. And I was like, okay, that was the thing that we did together. Totally different than my play.

• 1:11:23Dax Shepard?

  Resetting your expectations, redefining success.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I got to learn what her play was. This is how we understand each other, right? We learn about each other through play. You two know each other because you're both conversationally so playful.

• 1:11:37Dax Shepard?

  Do you know what Monica likes? Fair play.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Oh, it's my favorite kind of play. We're seething.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. I was gonna say, like, I don't know if you get to like necessarily.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  It's so nice. No, but I'm with you. I feel like Legos I don't like because, because I actually am not very good at following those instructions.

• 1:12:00Speaker 02

  Ah, yeah.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  And then I'm like, oh, I can't do this. As opposed to just being like, well, I can just make something random and that's fine. I'm just like, oh, I can't achieve the thing that this is meant to achieve.

• 1:12:10Dax Shepard?

  You can click those blocks together.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's so funny because then you have a toy that's telling you that you're wrong, right? And you're like, wait, I am a competent human and this thing that's meant to make me feel good and enjoy myself is making me feel bad.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  When you do do it correctly, it's a pretty big high. It's a pretty big accomplishment.

• 1:12:31Dax Shepard?

  You know, it's fun though, is if you could think of play as being this safe area to experiment and challenge the broader issues that we all have. You're such a great achiever and straight A's and all that, but if you had a zone that you could safely dabble in fucking up family, you know, like it might be therapeutic or cathartic.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:54Dax Shepard?

  And probably I should follow a YouTube tutorial on how to make a desk. Like, that would be my growth. You know, like, that's how I could grow.

• 1:13:03Speaker 02

  Do the thing that's hard and stay unattached to the outcome.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 1:13:08Dax Shepard?

  I just wanted to say one thing that's a personal pet peeve. So back to the play at work. You're the accountant and how do you actually play? So this is my grievance with the culture generally in the workplace, which is I used to prep cars for a living. For 14 years, I washed cars. Thank God I worked for my mom and she valued play. But I had coworkers who were annoyed because I'm laughing nonstop. I'm doing it. Okay, how much to punch your uncle in the nose? You know, like playing these dumb games. But yo, I'm washing cars faster than anybody. And what annoys me is there is some assumption in the workplace that having fun and playing while you are productive is not the right vibe. And that drives me bonkers. And I think a lot of Managers are just threatened by the notion that you could be playing and having fun.

• 1:13:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:53Dax Shepard?

  That they're losing complete control as opposed to like, well, what is the output of this happy playful person?

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  Exactly, but it's also that we undervalue the benefit. That whole workplace was better off because of you. So say that you actually, we're gonna shift it slightly.

• 1:14:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  Say that you washed one tenth fewer cars every day. And we valued efficiency and productivity over joy and cohesion of team. And probably the clients would like to come there because you all don't look miserable doing a service.

• 1:14:22Dax Shepard?

  Turnover, that's a cost.

• 1:14:24Speaker 02

  If we understand that playfulness and social skills are in fact a value that could be prioritized and compensated for, right? Because I mean, we see this also in all kinds of offices where the jobs that are like, oh, you just make everybody feel good. But I actually crunch the numbers. It's like, so why do you get paid more than I do? Because we're both critical to this working. So there's an undervalued of kind of social. Forget about it if it's somebody who deals with emotions, then we're really.

• 1:14:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, just give them minimum wage.

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  Right, yeah. Or teachers.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  So, but there's an undervaluing of those as skills that people are often built for and also that they learn. And it's a muscle that we exercise as well. So I think in that case, like, it's a really great example of that the playfulness made everything better. It just wasn't a priority.

• 1:15:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:11Speaker 02

  So for people reading the book or people saying that I want to be more playful, just prioritizing play and letting yourself play. And then, of course, if you're so far removed from it, you may need to do some work to find your play. What is your play?

• 1:15:23Dax Shepard?

  Well, Cass, I'm so delighted you wrote such a thoughtful and well researched book on being playful. And to remind everyone, it's called Playful: How Play Shifts Our Thinking Inspires Connection and Sparks Creativity. I hope everyone checks it out. Sincerely, I hope people could more increasingly prioritize it. It feels frivolous and I just don't think it's frivolous.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  Well, especially not right now. Everything's so serious. We need some of this back in our brains.

• 1:15:50Dax Shepard?

  I promise you, not a single human being will be on their deathbed and they'll go like, fuck, I shouldn't have played so much while I was here. That sentence will never come out of a dying person's mouth.

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:16:00Dax Shepard?

  I think I worked too much? Pretty likely that might come out.

• 1:16:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, or I didn't prioritize my family, which is often the thing.

• 1:16:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  Or my people in general.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, your chosen family. Well, Cass, thank you so much.

• 1:16:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:16:13Dax Shepard?

  This was delightful.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Thank you for him. I love him.

• 1:16:16Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Here's to him. It's very vaginal, would you agree?

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  Right now, just right this very second. I don't know about later.

• 1:16:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you for playing.

• 1:16:25Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:16:26Dax Shepard?

  All right, be well.

• 1:16:30Dax Shepard?

  Hi there, this is Hermium Hermium. If you like that, you're gonna love the fact check with Miss Monica.

• 1:16:37Dax Shepard?

  Doesn't that sound good?

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  It does sound good.

• 1:16:40Dax Shepard?

  Did you hear any of that?

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  It sounds like Foley.

• 1:16:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  But it was real.

• 1:16:47Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 1:16:48Dax Shepard?

  I feel very elegant right now.

• 1:16:52Dax Shepard?

  I mean, really elegant. I have poured myself a glass of sparkling mineral water, maybe?

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:17:00Dax Shepard?

  Artesian water?

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:02Dax Shepard?

  Artesian.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, why do you have that fancy water?

• 1:17:05Dax Shepard?

  Because Ethan Suppley, one of my favorite people on the planet.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:10Dax Shepard?

  He's a connoisseur of water. If you'll recall, he's the one who figured out I didn't have IBS, that I was just allergic to.

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  Pellegrino.

• 1:17:19Dax Shepard?

  Pellegrino. And he didn't even figure it out. He just told me he shits his pants when he drinks Pellegrino. I was like, oh my God, that's what's been happening. I don't have IBS.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a big reveal.

• 1:17:28Dax Shepard?

  So I guess he's a wa- he's a water connoisseur.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:17:32Dax Shepard?

  And he texts me the other night and it was like, the way he's just, he's like, you must try this water.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:17:38Dax Shepard?

  And he was so like descriptive about it.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  What did he say?

• 1:17:41Dax Shepard?

  Do you want me to read it? I'll read it to you.

• 1:17:45Dax Shepard?

  It's classic Suppley. I love people who are super into stuff.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:50Dax Shepard?

  It makes, it just makes for so much more fun.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  It does.

• 1:17:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he said, um, "very fine discovery" with a photograph of the water. I said, "it's exceptional." He said, "it sits in the glass, appearing for all intents and purposes to be a still, and yet when it hits your tongue, the effervescence is quite magical, quite delightful." I would definitely go so far as to say, "exceptional."

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:18:17Dax Shepard?

  So based on that, I ordered a case.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:18:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  And it came that fast?

• 1:18:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I guess that was maybe Sunday he sent me that. God knows where he was at, where he.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  Well, what's the brand?

• 1:18:28Dax Shepard?

  Well, I don't wanna like just be promoting a brand of water.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  Well, it's too late.

• 1:18:35Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, now it's just, okay, yeah, it's called Tahoe.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  Okay, great.

• 1:18:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, well, I don't like it. I don't want anyone to think that this is like some kind of in-episode ad.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  Well, it's not.

• 1:18:44Dax Shepard?

  It's not. Yeah, but it's, you know.

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  We talk about things we like. It's okay.

• 1:18:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  Is he right? Is it exceptional?

• 1:18:52Dax Shepard?

  You want to take a sip?

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think it's actually quite exceptional. It has like the nicest balance of like the mineral and the sparkle taste, but also very flat taste.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  Whoa, mhm.

• 1:19:03Dax Shepard?

  Right?

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  I'm gonna take one more sip.

• 1:19:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like I would, I think they nailed it with the label because there's something about it that makes me just think silver.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  It's really nice. Yeah.

• 1:19:11Dax Shepard?

  You guys want to read the coupon code?

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  That is tasty. It feels like the bubbles are teeny tiny.

• 1:19:19Dax Shepard?

  Minuscule bubbles.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:21Dax Shepard?

  How do they do it? I don't know. That's why it's called artisanal.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Have you ever been to like a fancy restaurant where there's a water menu?

• 1:19:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's triggering. That's why I'm like conflicted by this whole thing, but because it came from Ethan, who's so not snobby. I'm in. And also he's an ex-addict as well. So it's like, we can't get super into wine. So here, what we got? We got water.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 1:19:45Dax Shepard?

  You gotta geek out about something, I guess.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:19:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you, what started off as a very nice gesture, you, well, I don't know how this happened, but what happened between you and Delta and La Bear shit tea?

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Okay, we were outside yesterday chit-chatting.

• 1:20:00Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh, catching up.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  Catching up and um, we got on the subject of, gosh, she must have been talking about some sort of stuffy or something.

• 1:20:11Dax Shepard?

  Of course.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:20:12Dax Shepard?

  Maybe Groot, maybe I saw where Groot was or something.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  I, I didn't. I haven't checked in a minute on Groot, actually. But I, I don't remember, but then TT, your sister, said something about Beanie Babies and we got on the subject of Beanie Babies. Oh, I know exactly how.

• 1:20:27Dax Shepard?

  There we go. Bingo.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  Someone brought up Pez. We're going way far back.

• 1:20:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  Someone brought up Pez. I don't remember yet how we got to Pez, but Pez came up and I said, you know, speaking of, speaking of being very into things, I said, I'm, I never got into Pez and I'm, I'm kind of surprised.

• 1:20:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  Because it seems like something I ride up my alley.

• 1:20:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it's more of this, yeah, shocking.

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  It's collectible.

• 1:20:55Dax Shepard?

  Colorful.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, candies.

• 1:20:57Dax Shepard?

  Limited edition candy.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  Limited edition. But actually, the candy is the part that's, that I didn't like that candy.

• 1:21:04Dax Shepard?

  Well, I don't want to get sued, but yeah.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  Can't sue me for my opinion. I, I personally don't like that candy, but I think Pez did great.

• 1:21:14Dax Shepard?

  Pez is there alright.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Whether or not I liked the candy.

• 1:21:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  I think they did great and.

• 1:21:19Dax Shepard?

  But I do think you're right in that the appeal of it was way more the delivery device than the.

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  The candy itself.

• 1:21:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  I don't think I realized that at the time.

• 1:21:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  Which is a big mistake on my part. I thought it was about the candy, which I wasn't into, instead of realizing it's a, it's a collectible.

• 1:21:35Dax Shepard?

  And it's about the experience of administering the candy.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  And like the people on top and stuff.

• 1:21:43Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:21:50Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Superhuman. Look, I love what I do. The conversations, the ideas, the creative stuff, but there's this whole other layer of work that eats my day alive. The inbox that never ends. Docs I need to get through, threads I'm behind on. And by the time I've dealt with all that, the stuff I actually want to focus on gets whatever's left. What I needed was something that just works where I'm already working. Not another tab to open, not another thing to set up. Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly, is different. It's already right there. Inside your email, your docs, your browser. You don't go to it. It's already working alongside you. You're deep in a long thread, highlight it, and it pulls the key points. About to send something important?

• 1:22:32Dax Shepard?

  It flags what doesn't add up before it leaves your hands. It knows your style, your workflows, and it just backs you up without getting in the way. A thought partner that's already up to speed, at your service, not after your job. So, do yourself a favor and try Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly. Find out more at superhuman.com.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Anyway, so a big regret of mine that I never got into Pez. We were talking about that. And so then we were talking about collectibles. And then TT brought up Beanie Babies.

• 1:23:09Dax Shepard?

  Cause someone sent me a Pez dispenser for nicotine pouches. That's how this all started.

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  That's right. And Armcherry did.

• 1:23:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. Some two cute kids started up.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  How this started.

• 1:23:19Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  And she, uh, yeah. So then she started talking about Beanie Babies. And then I naturally brought up La Bear T. And I said, he's in, he's in the garage. And she said, can I see him? I said, of course. So we walked on over. And as soon as I, you know, put him in her little hands.

• 1:23:38Dax Shepard?

  Came alive.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. She was like, oh, he's so cute.

• 1:23:42Dax Shepard?

  And to remind people in the audience, he's covered in shit. It's like someone had put a shit can in and spattered it all over his face. So the fact that she looked at him, oh, he's so cute is so Delta, you know?

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  It is. I know.

• 1:23:54Dax Shepard?

  She see right past the shit on someone's face.

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  I know. And she, um, she asked if she could ta- she called it something.

• 1:24:03Dax Shepard?

  Vacation?

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  Something like that. She asked if she could take him for a day for something. And I said, of course. And I said, you can take him anytime you want. You know, he's in your, he's by your house. Like you can take him. Um, and so she, she took him on an adventure and then she ran back out. She said, Monica, what's his name again? I said, La Bear T. It's Liberty, but with bear in the center. And she loved that.

• 1:24:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So then you leave, da, da, da, busy day again. Wife's out of town. Uh, she's got her first volleyball game.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:38Dax Shepard?

  Which is hysterical. She had her first practice of her life on Monday and then her first game was on Wednesday. So we practiced in the yard and then we ordered food. Now it's crunch time. We're, we're, we're cutting it close. And then for some weird reason, the place we order, always order pizza from, which is so fast, is like taking forever and ever and ever.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  Hey.

• 1:24:58Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, I call the place, like, hey, dude, cause I'm friendly over there.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:02Dax Shepard?

  No, it's in the oven. Okay, blah, blah. And so it arrives. I mean, there's a side thing where I got into it. With Lincoln in what will be the first of many big fights we'll have throughout our, our relationship as you, you know, you have a teenager, you guys are gonna, there's gonna be dust ups. So just the heat is on. We're in a huge rush to get out. Like we, we are, we are, the pizza comes, we were cramming it down. We get in the car and she's like, oh, I forgot something. And I'm like, we don't, we don't have time for you to forget something. Also, everything's in that bag. I know everything you need is in the bag. Also, all you need is yourself. Right. She runs back inside and she comes outside with fucking LaBertie and a Polaroid

• 1:25:45Dax Shepard?

  camera. And I'm like, this is what? Well, he's on vacation and you have to photograph him because he went to a volleyball game on vacation. I'm like, okay. And we get to, we get to the volleyball game. And every parent, like, we are about 30 seconds late. Okay. So I'm already kind of embarrassed about that. Also, I don't know anyone on the team's name. Like, you don't want to be the parent that didn't get their kid to the volleyball game on time. So I'm embarrassed about that. Sitting next to the only two parents I know. And everyone seems to know every kid on the player on the team's name. I don't know anyone. I just was at that one thing, right?

• 1:26:29Dax Shepard?

  All these things. Yeah. And then like, big stuff's happening and I'm fucking having a photo session with LaBertie, which I can show you. Oh, my God, we have to put it up. Oh, yeah. Let me send it to Rob. This is really a Monica story. There's so much to this story. Oh, my God. What? My heart is so. Big plays are happening and I'm missing it because I'm trying to get, I'm trying to get a shot of LaBertie on vacation at the volleyball game without my hands in it. Oh, and lighting and shadows or whatever, you know. Now, here's the impossible thing. And this is just, this is really Delta and really her mom. Okay. These two with these horseshoes. All right. Go ahead and show

• 1:27:14Dax Shepard?

  Monty this. This is.

• 1:27:20Dax Shepard?

  Of course, she had a whole outfit for him. He's got a skirt, a bib, a cardigan, a hat.

• 1:27:28Dax Shepard?

  Shit all over his face.

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I want to cry.

• 1:27:33Dax Shepard?

  And I can only imagine what the other parents think of me who showed up late. I'm on TV and I spent the whole time doing a photo shoot with La Bearte. I'm missing huge place. People are cheering. I'm like, what? What happened?

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Wait, he looks so happy.

• 1:27:52Dax Shepard?

  He's kind of pointing to Delta. That's actually Delta just above.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Right there?

• 1:27:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, that's her at the front of the net. Okay, now here's the part where it's like, you know, some people just have charmed lives. So it's, it's little, it's 10 year olds playing volleyball.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:08Dax Shepard?

  Nobody's getting their serve over.

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 1:28:10Dax Shepard?

  I would say realistically 90% of the serves don't make it over.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:17Dax Shepard?

  Delta steps up for her very first serve and I'm like, you know, no way she's getting it over. She started playing on Monday.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Dax Shepard?

  She gets it over perfectly.

• 1:28:28Dax Shepard?

  They get it back. The other team returns it and then it falls flat. But I'm like, oh, my God. I'm like, I'm so excited. Her next time up, four in a row over, scores three points.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  I, I'm not, I'm not surprised. She's a natural at everything. Oh, my God.

• 1:28:51Dax Shepard?

  And like, it's, there's a lot in there. There's like Eckhart Tolle, power now. I don't know what it is, but it's like, I would have gone in there like it had been so important to me that I was good.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:01Dax Shepard?

  And she didn't really go in there with that. I think she went in there to have fun with her new friends. And then she was great. And then she like.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Her focus was her friend's vacation.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 1:29:13Dax Shepard?

  I couldn't believe it. There were three other girls out of 25 or

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:19Dax Shepard?

  26, each have four alternates, whatever, a lot of girls.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:22Dax Shepard?

  There were really only four girls the entire night that served it over more than two times in a row.

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  Wow, that's so exciting.

• 1:29:31Dax Shepard?

  Yes, I couldn't believe, and then when a ball came her way and she got it like, and then they, they won 2-0. It was best two out of three and they won their first game, they won 2-0.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  I'm so proud of her. I'm so proud Liberty got to watch that.

• 1:29:43Dax Shepard?

  It's incredible. She can be athletic with that horseshoe so far up her ass.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  No, it's not luck, it's skill and it's passion.

• 1:29:51Dax Shepard?

  Kristin went to her first baseball game and hit a homerun.

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  But maybe that's also skill. Why can't?

• 1:29:56Dax Shepard?

  Well, clearly they have skill.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:29:59Dax Shepard?

  Obviously.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  I think it's just hidden talents.

• 1:30:02Dax Shepard?

  I think there's something kind of cool and metaphysical happening.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:30:06Dax Shepard?

  I think there's like karmic rewards for being, her priority is probably for everyone else to shine and the other girls on the team. I don't know, there's something suspicious. You just don't go to your first time ever trying something and you're like, third or fourth best person.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:30:23Dax Shepard?

  Oh, and it's so cute watching girls play. I love it because every time someone messes up, which is almost all the time. Everyone's like, good job, Carol, right? And even when it's like they did, they would get a volley going and now you're really, you're invested. It's like, oh my, and there's all, oh my God, they got it, they got it. And then someone shits the bed.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course, yeah.

• 1:30:42Dax Shepard?

  Boys, a hundred percent of boys are like, Michael, please.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:47Dax Shepard?

  Wake up.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, upset.

• 1:30:50Dax Shepard?

  That's just like how boys are. But these girls are so supportive and kind to each other and everyone left in a great mood and no one felt bad if they didn't do good. And it was, it was delightful. I had a blast at this volleyball. I cannot wait. First I was like, oh boy, we got volleyball across town.

• 1:31:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:06Dax Shepard?

  Twice a week now. No, I can't wait to go.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  Oh, exciting. I want to go to a game.

• 1:31:11Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you should.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  I'll bring Liberty. I bet Liberty's not going to want to miss it. You're, I'm sorry, but you're.

• 1:31:17Dax Shepard?

  Back to, so now that's not even my complaint yet.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:31:20Dax Shepard?

  So that was the game. Right. And then I drive her to school this morning and Liberty's with her on the seat. And then we get out of the car and she's like, okay, um, you'll keep Liberty with you all day today. And I was like, uh, yeah. And she's like, yeah, he doesn't, he's on vacation. It's you that you like, you can't just leave him. So I'm like, okay.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  She has a lot of ideas about vacation.

• 1:31:42Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, I'm gonna put him on the bed.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:31:44Dax Shepard?

  It's a great vacation if you ask me, if you could lay in bed all day.

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  But he does sit a lot.

• 1:31:48Dax Shepard?

  She was very specific that I needed to like incorporate him into my day. So here I am with Liberty. Like you and I were coming to the, uh, to the studio.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:58Dax Shepard?

  I was like, oh, fuck, I gotta, I forgot Liberty. And I had to run in the house now and be late.

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  I thought you ran in to get him to return him, but I was like, no, no, he should still hang out with Delta for some time.

• 1:32:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no, he's gonna go see, uh, another one battle after another.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  Sing it again.

• 1:32:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, with Larry Traline.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  Oh, are you going to the best.

• 1:32:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. First time at the Vista.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  Oh, you'll love it. Um, okay. Can you take a picture of him in the seat?

• 1:32:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you must. Oh, we were having fun with that. You know, there's that, um, I think you should leave sketch where he says there's shit on the receipt.

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:32:34Dax Shepard?

  And then he's like, let's, someone goes, let's, let's get out of here. This place is covered in shit. So we were walking into class on the sidewalk and we were saying, Liberty is covered in shit.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  I can't believe the outfit she put him in.

• 1:32:52Dax Shepard?

  I'm sure he'll be in four or five others before he comes back.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  I was really not expecting to see an outfit on him and she made it so quick. I mean, I left at like two o'clock and.

• 1:33:03Dax Shepard?

  And she's even explaining to me like, um, yeah, so this is Ken's cardigan, but I put it on backwards. It looks more chic backwards. Like, so that was actually in reverse.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it looked so good.

• 1:33:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he looked great in a sequined dress.

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  I feel unethical at this point. Um, bringing him back. Like I, I think she needs to adopt him.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  I think I have to give, I think it's time for me to put him up for adoption to her only.

• 1:33:32Dax Shepard?

  Well, as the parent who lives in a house with too much stuff, if you want to keep him in here as well, that's also.

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  I, I, I know, I know. I understand where you're coming from as the grandparent.

• 1:33:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we, I mean, the, we just, I don't know if we can be tending to yet another.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  I just.

• 1:33:49Dax Shepard?

  With this, well, attention to detail.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  I just though, like, I'll never be able to unsee him in that outfit, really living like his best life.

• 1:33:59Dax Shepard?

  Can you see if I did get back in the show business and I'm walking into pitch projects at like Warner Brothers and I'm entering with three or four stuffies? Like I grew with me and La Shit T and the whole gang.

• 1:34:10Speaker 01

  Say his name proper. Okay? I did, it is kind of funny though, cause last night I was thinking, I also was thinking like, oh, like that was so sweet that Delta wanted to like, play with him and, and I already had the thought. I was like, she's, she, she should just keep him like, it's, you know, I should give her that.

• 1:34:31Dax Shepard?

  And now you see what kind of steward she is of it.

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Well, and then this, yeah, it's just like fully irresponsible for me to be like, that's mine and just leave it sitting on this shelf when it's living a big life with her.

• 1:34:42Dax Shepard?

  That's kind of what happened with how Bree got Bilby.

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  Who's Bilby?

• 1:34:48Dax Shepard?

  Bilbo, um, Mac.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Oh, oh.

• 1:34:51Dax Shepard?

  It was someone else's dog that she would babysit.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:34:54Dax Shepard?

  And she'd be out in a sweater at the beach with Bilby, you know, and the person was finally like, this, this is.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  It's not fair.

• 1:35:03Dax Shepard?

  She's doing a.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  Better job.

• 1:35:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. As, as a parent, you gotta know when you're not doing a good job.

• 1:35:11Dax Shepard?

  I hope no one does a better job with Delta. I can, I do not want to give her back.

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, I guess you gotta keep that in mind.

• 1:35:17Dax Shepard?

  I'm not, I, I'm not open to it yet. Talk to me in some time, maybe when she's. Fully hormonal.

• 1:35:23Speaker 01

  Hitting the teens.

• 1:35:25Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:35:25Speaker 01

  Oh my God. Well, I am. Can you send me that picture, please?

• 1:35:29Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, of course.

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  What a great day. What a great day. Yeah.

• 1:35:34Dax Shepard?

  He's done more in the last 14 hours than he did his previous 20 years on this planet.

• 1:35:40Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know. He spent a lot of time in my parents' basement doing God knows what. Obviously, that's why he looks like that.

• 1:35:46Dax Shepard?

  That's why he's covered.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  That was his like naughty era, obviously.

• 1:35:50Dax Shepard?

  His Rumspringa?

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. But even when you got him, would I be right to assume you got him as a valuable, collectible item? You weren't playing.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  I was not playing with him. No.

• 1:36:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:00Speaker 01

  No, I was not.

• 1:36:01Dax Shepard?

  So he probably honestly did get more playing in.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:04Dax Shepard?

  Yesterday.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  He did.

• 1:36:07Dax Shepard?

  That's a hopeful story. Like, don't rule off that you might have like the most playful.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  In your older years.

• 1:36:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, in the twilight of your life.

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, he lost his ta- I kind of feel like when he was in my parents' basement, it was like the height of his addiction.

• 1:36:22Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  You know, he lost his tag. He got covered and shit.

• 1:36:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he was doing, he was.

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  Naughty.

• 1:36:29Dax Shepard?

  He was doing sexual acts.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:32Dax Shepard?

  For drugs.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  Probably with the like, um, I mean, there were some other Beanie Babies down there. And then there was like some, like a cabbage patch.

• 1:36:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, they're nasty.

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're.

• 1:36:41Dax Shepard?

  They still poop in their diapers.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  Oh, maybe that explains it. So, you know, but I feel like now he's.

• 1:36:49Dax Shepard?

  Someone said in the comments that you and I are just, we've gotten too gross. They were like, you guys are just disgusting now. I think something about maybe my, getting my prostate examined.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  Whatever. That's real.

• 1:37:01Dax Shepard?

  That's medical, man.

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  People have to get their prostate.

• 1:37:03Dax Shepard?

  You don't like medicine?

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  Exactly. You don't like science?

• 1:37:06Dax Shepard?

  You don't be saying that when it saves your life.

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's right. Um, all right. Well.

• 1:37:11Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that was an accident for the listener. I just knocked the liberty off of the armrest. Oh, boy. Okay.

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta remember, he's smaller than Groove.

• 1:37:23Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna let him play with my phone, because you know how kids love it.

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  Screen time.

• 1:37:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that'll distract him.

• 1:37:27Speaker 01

  I wonder what he's gonna watch. I hope he doesn't watch porn. I hope he doesn't slip into that, you know? I mean, he's allowed, but like, I just don't wanna, you know?

• 1:37:35Dax Shepard?

  I understand.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  He's sober now, and he's...

• 1:37:39Dax Shepard?

  Could be a trigger. Yeah, it could bring back some of the shame.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, if you look at your phone and it's like, cabbage patch, diaper, search.

• 1:37:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  You know it's bad.

• 1:37:51Dax Shepard?

  And then he'd get into all Jennifer Aniston's liquor in front of us.

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  Reminder that tomorrow Beth's Dead is out everywhere.

• 1:38:00Dax Shepard?

  Guys, go to Patreon. How do people even do this?

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  Well, no, they don't have to. Tomorrow it's out, like, anywhere you get your podcasts. It's regs, it's out.

• 1:38:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  But, it'll, it's out week to week, and if you start listening... Yeah, if you're like, "Ooh, I want more, I wanna binge," you can go to patreon.com/bethstead and you get the whole thing.

• 1:38:22Dax Shepard?

  Ah, can't wait to hear the results of this. This is exciting.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cass.

• 1:38:27Dax Shepard?

  Cass.

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  Cass, okay. Where can you find playgrounds with the big blue box, boxes, you know? Um, you can just search Imagination Playground.

• 1:38:37Dax Shepard?

  Okay, that's...

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  And then you can search your area.

• 1:38:39Dax Shepard?

  You pop in your zip code, maybe?

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can see where you can go, play with those. Um, Junk Playgrounds, we said were big in the UK. Um, they're not as big in the UK as they once were, sadly. Many are struggling to stay open due to funding cuts. While the concept originated in the UK after World War II and was popular for a time, austerity measures, lack of funding for youth services, and a move toward risk-averse traditional playgrounds have led to the closure or reduction of many. However, they still exist in some areas and have experienced a small resurgence in some places with a growing number of adventure playgrounds popping up in the US as well.

• 1:39:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 1:39:21Speaker 01

  That's good. Okay, well, according to the internet, you cannot get an STD from a lazy river.

• 1:39:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  I would like to do some further research.

• 1:39:32Dax Shepard?

  Okay. You want that to be true for some reason. You feel safer in a world where you could get an STD.

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  In a lazy river.

• 1:39:43Dax Shepard?

  Did I already tell you that? You go ahead.

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  No, that's.

• 1:39:46Dax Shepard?

  This is now, I don't want to get back into the.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 1:39:49Dax Shepard?

  But I tell you about when I was in the hospital and the doctor said, we were in there by ourselves.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  Wait, what?

• 1:39:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no one will like this. No.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:39:58Dax Shepard?

  Okay, they're not, we're in there with this doctor. I don't know him.

• 1:40:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:40:01Dax Shepard?

  And he's trying to figure out what's going on with me and my prostate and everything. And he says, you know, anything we say in here is between you and I, doesn't leave this room. And I immediately know where he's going when he says that.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:40:15Dax Shepard?

  And he says, is there any chance you have an STD?

• 1:40:20Dax Shepard?

  And I said, oh, I wish.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:40:27Dax Shepard?

  I wish, I wish, but no, it's not an STD.

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  I mean, if you had, you have been in a, in rivers.

• 1:40:38Dax Shepard?

  Lazy river, but as we now know, even if I had been in a lazy river, I wouldn't be.

• 1:40:42Speaker 01

  You've been in regular lake.

• 1:40:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, no problem.

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  I'm gonna do some research.

• 1:40:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you'd feel more comfortable because I think I even said, I think there's a lot of people that blame STDs on a lot of things that are not realistic, like a toilet seat and this and that. And really, they've just been hanky panky.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's transmitted through intimate sexual contact.

• 1:41:05Dax Shepard?

  Not sitting on a toilet.

• 1:41:06Speaker 01

  Not through water.

• 1:41:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  I mean, on a toilet seat, though.

• 1:41:10Dax Shepard?

  No, you don't, if you had a big, open gash on your butt cheek.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:14Dax Shepard?

  And then a big dump of the STD was sitting on the seat, wet.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:20Dax Shepard?

  But get real.

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:41:22Dax Shepard?

  That's not gonna happen.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  What if a woman put her vagina straight on the seat?

• 1:41:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:28Speaker 01

  And secreted some stuff?

• 1:41:30Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  Okay?

• 1:41:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:32Speaker 01

  And, and, and got the goo on there.

• 1:41:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  And then the next person did the same thing. And then the first person had an STD that you'd get it.

• 1:41:43Dax Shepard?

  If it was woman to woman, and the second woman also rubbed her vagina all over the seat.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:48Dax Shepard?

  Maybe. But a lot of these STDs, when they get airborne, they die.

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fat. It has to be really fat.

• 1:41:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so, I mean, you're talking about two women grinding on the outside of the toilet.

• 1:42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, ew.

• 1:42:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm just saying it could.

• 1:42:10Dax Shepard?

  And I don't want to generalize, but I don't think it's a ton of women claiming they got an STD from a toilet seat again. I think it's more men and I don't think they have a vagina to rub on there.

• 1:42:19Speaker 01

  Oh, they're saying it because they cheated.

• 1:42:21Dax Shepard?

  Exactly.

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  Oh, my god.

• 1:42:25Dax Shepard?

  I don't know, hon. I must have got it at the urinal.

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  Oh, that's, yeah.

• 1:42:30Dax Shepard?

  Well, you didn't even know where I was at from the whole beginning of this conversation?

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  No, I did.

• 1:42:33Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:42:33Speaker 01

  I did then, but, yeah.

• 1:42:35Dax Shepard?

  Now you're really, yeah.

• 1:42:39Dax Shepard?

  I don't know, hon. I went in a lazy river. First of all, when did you go in a lazy river? On my golf trip.

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 1:42:49Speaker 01

  Maybe. Okay, so TBD on that.

• 1:42:54Dax Shepard?

  Well, okay.

• 1:42:55Speaker 01

  No, no, I have to deliver the correct facts and you can't get it.

• 1:42:59Dax Shepard?

  You don't want to get sued by a lazy river manufacturer.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  But I also don't want to get sued by someone who did get one in a lazy river.

• 1:43:06Dax Shepard?

  They didn't. There's chlorine in there. They got a swimsuit on.

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  It does say chlorine.

• 1:43:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay.

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  Oh, fuck.

• 1:43:14Dax Shepard?

  There was, I remember when I was younger and herpes was all the rage.

• 1:43:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:17Dax Shepard?

  Because herpes really hit the scene in the 80s. That's what was like all over the news. This new thing, herpes, herpes.

• 1:43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:24Dax Shepard?

  And I remember they would say you could get herpes from a hot tub.

• 1:43:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:28Dax Shepard?

  But I don't know if that's true.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  They would say that. They, maybe that's where all this is coming from.

• 1:43:35Dax Shepard?

  Herpes from a hot tub?

• 1:43:38Dax Shepard?

  That'd be a good band name.

• 1:43:39Speaker 01

  It would be.

• 1:43:39Dax Shepard?

  Herpes from a hot tub.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Herpes is cute. It's a cute name. A lot of these are bad.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:46Dax Shepard?

  You know?

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  Gonorrhea.

• 1:43:47Dax Shepard?

  Gonorrhea.

• 1:43:48Speaker 01

  Chlamydia is not great.

• 1:43:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's gonorrhea. Plug your ears, people who are sensitive. There's something about the word gonorrhea where I think I can smell it.

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  Ew!

• 1:43:57Dax Shepard?

  Right?

• 1:43:58Speaker 01

  That's disgusting.

• 1:43:59Dax Shepard?

  But do you agree?

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:44:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:03Speaker 01

  Chlamydia.

• 1:44:05Dax Shepard?

  That's kind of cute. Koala bears get it.

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  It sounds like a flower. Like, it could have been a flower.

• 1:44:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, she got me. I got her a dozen chlamydis.

• 1:44:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, syphilis.

• 1:44:17Dax Shepard?

  That one sounds rough. Syphilis.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  Syphilis almost is an automotopia.

• 1:44:22Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. And have you seen what happens to the, like, have you seen the skulls from the people who died of syphilis in the sixteen and seventeen hundreds? It eats away all the frontal, uh...

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  Brain?

• 1:44:36Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:44:37Speaker 01

  White matter?

• 1:44:39Dax Shepard?

  The bone, the bone. It eats, it's all like, it looks like, um, not even Swiss cheese, like, termites.

• 1:44:44Speaker 01

  Ew!

• 1:44:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, it's rough, rough, rough, rough.

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  I mean, people do need to be careful. Like, I don't want people to go in lazy river, river.

• 1:44:54Dax Shepard?

  No, go in lazy rivers, they're really fun and they're safe.

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  Get syphilis. I have an unfortunate thing that happened. I was supposed to check a fact and I didn't.

• 1:45:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, what was it?

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  But I, I tried to check it online and I couldn't find it. And so I needed to look in her book. And I meant to go find the book and I didn't. Okay, but it was, it was the stat for the experiment she talked about where people, like, students took a, some students took a test in silence, some went, I mean, there was music, some did a puzzle, and then there were percentages about outcomes. And she said the one she was saying was definitely wrong, but that they're in the book. And yet I did not.

• 1:45:34Dax Shepard?

  That's okay.

• 1:45:35Speaker 01

  Retrieve them.

• 1:45:36Dax Shepard?

  That's all right.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  Sophia would have done it.

• 1:45:37Dax Shepard?

  I still like you.

• 1:45:38Speaker 01

  Okay, thank you.

• 1:45:39Dax Shepard?

  You've paid no reputational price for that.

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  Thank you. Um, and that's it.

• 1:45:45Dax Shepard?

  That's everything.

• 1:45:46Speaker 01

  I've been playing with my Gemo, the cute toy she gave us.

• 1:45:50Dax Shepard?

  I've been playing with my gonorrhea.

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:45:52Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:45:57Dax Shepard?

  Can you play with your gonorrhea? I've never had gonorrhea, shockingly.

• 1:46:02Speaker 01

  What have you had?

• 1:46:04Dax Shepard?

  I mean, I guess I could have had it and then I had antibiotics or something else and didn't ever...

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  No, I said, what have you had?

• 1:46:11Dax Shepard?

  Oh. I'm not gonna talk about it.

• 1:46:19Dax Shepard?

  I only tell you stuff I haven't had.

• 1:46:23Speaker 01

  Okay, that's it.

• 1:46:24Dax Shepard?

  All right, love you.

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  Love you.