Gen Z Has A Dating Problem - Sadia Khan

Sadia Khan is a relationship coach and a speaker. Dating in the modern world is more fraught than ever. Men and women are finding themselves confused and lost as they try to make sense of a mating landscape which becomes ever more difficult to navigate. Expect to learn why Sadia’s Instagram has been banned 3 times, why nice guys have such a hard time in relationships, whether men and women can actually be friends, whether hot women tend to be crazier, how to stop being a jealous partner, whether body count actually matters, why married couples cheat, what Love Island is doing to our view of romance and much more... Sponsors: Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first box at https://www.drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Get 50% off your first Factor Meals box by going to to https://factormeals.com/MW50 (discount automatically applied at checkout) Get the Whoop 4.0 for free and get your first month for free at https://join.whoop.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied) Extra Stuff: Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #dating #relationships #psychology - 00:00 The Widespread Belief That Love is Toxic 06:32 The Safety of the Inner Citadel 10:14 Consequences of the Rise of Sex Work 17:38 Psychology of Slut-Shaming 26:39 Why Nice Guys Suffer 35:37 Can Men & Women Be Friends? 46:05 The Many Failures of the Sexual Revolution 55:28 The Growing Trend of Childlessness 1:09:25 What Reality Shows Are Teaching Young People About Relationships 1:13:55 Transgender Dating Dynamics 1:22:04 Are Hot Girls More Crazy? 1:31:45 Is It Hard For Successful Men to Settle Down? 1:37:00 Feeling Jealous About a Partner’s Body Count 1:43:20 The Lost Treasure of Traditional Women 1:57:11 Are AI Girlfriends the Future? 2:07:23 Where to Find Sadia - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  Why did you get banned on Instagram?

• 0:03Speaker 01

  Actually, to be, to be fair, I don't know fully, but what from what I did some digging and I found out there was a um OnlyFans content creator. Who felt like I was pushing a narrative that goes against sex work, pornography and OnlyFans. And so she pulled some strings, managed to get it banned. I also pulled some strings, managed to get back on, but I'm sure with my big mouth, I'll get myself in trouble soon. So I'm gonna make a vow and I'm glad you're here to witness it. I'm gonna try and stay out of trouble because I don't want to lose my Instagram. It's actually a really great platform.

• 0:33Chris Williamson?

  Okay, well, we'll hope, we'll see, we'll see how you get on after today.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:37Chris Williamson?

  So one of the things I've noticed recently is this sort of widespread belief that love is, it's toxic. Why do you think these sort of modern representations of female stories are so devoid of love? You know, looking at the Barbie movie, there's these previews of the Snow White movie coming up. Rachel Zegler, Zegler doesn't really look like she's pro love. What do you think's going on?

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Well, I think the demise of marriage and long-term relationships, what that means is with relationships, it's like when you watch a movie. And the whole movie can be great, but if the ending is shit, we'll say movies are shit, that movie was awful. Similarly, if the ending is fantastic, you'll say that whole movie was great. Usually the people pushing this narrative have just come out of a negative relationship. So they define the entire course of love and the entire course of relationships by their particular ending. And if the ending was terrible, love is terrible and they label it like that. And they also like to run with the narrative that my ex is a narcissist is their favorite phrase on the planet at the moment. What that does is kind of devoid us of the responsibility in causing that toxicity. Blame it on someone else and then blame love as a separate entity as a cause for our pain.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  When really it's our behaviors. So the love isn't toxic, it's how we behave in love and how we behave when vulnerable. That creates toxicity, but it's easy to just say that love is this really dangerous emotion. And we should avoid it at all costs and always keep our armor up just in case love comes at us and kills us. When really it's our poor decision making or our behaviors that cause love to be toxic.

• 2:07Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's strange to me that it appears to be like a top-down narrative as well. It's not just individuals rejecting love. It's also in movies, it's in culture as well.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I do, I do think there is, you know, there is a lot to be gained from convincing people that love is toxic and you don't need it because independence breeds more customers. Whether it's on social media, whether it's on porn sites, whether it's on cosmetic surgery, independence creates customers. So I think that it makes total sense from a marketing perspective to breed the idea that love is no longer necessary. I saw a lot of interviews from the star of Snow White where she was almost making digs at what is actually quite a sweet fairy tale, but trying to make it into digs. And I just thought, I'm guessing the narrative of seeing love as weak is being propagated in the culture today.

• 2:58Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, there's a quote from that interview. She's not going to be saved by the prince. She's not going to be dreaming about true love. She's dreaming about becoming the leader she knows she can be. The prince in the original movie stalked her.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Why would you sign up to a film if that's what you believe was the message behind it? I'm guessing, because here's what they're taking is, I'm not saying Disney movies were great for our perception of love either, but the idea of mocking connection and mocking, and let's say, for example, somebody does save you and you're in a bad position, but they do save you. Why is that so negative? If somebody's going through something and you find a partner and they help you heal and you both help each other heal, why is that a negative thing? I mean, I, maybe I've got it wrong, but the narrative I'm getting is it's almost seen as embarrassing to fall in love, when really it's an essential component of our life. We all need it.

• 3:55Chris Williamson?

  It seems to me, the advice for men. Suggests that falling in love makes you irrational and weak. And for women, it makes you subservient and dependent. And it's almost the opposite of what both sexes want to have, right? There's a trend of wanting women to have their own independence at the moment, like more power to them. And there's a trend of wanting men to be able to stand up for themselves more. And love is being positioned as the antithesis of the thing that you're trying to get.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, love is seen as suffering. And here's the thing, there's a big difference between pain and suffering. Like, pain is just things that happen in our life. Like, let's say the person you love passes away, or you can't have a baby, that's pain. But suffering is the emotional consequences of our poor decision making. Now, if you feel like love is suffering for you, have a look at your decision making. If you're becoming weak, but if you choose wisely, you won't see it as being weak. You'll see it as being compatible and you'll see it as being compromising. But if you're becoming subservient, if you choose the right person, you won't see it as a form of abuse. But if you're making poor decisions, of course, love is going to be a form of suffering. But suffering is a reminder that you made wrong choices.

• 5:09Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I was watching this baggage claim video earlier on, she's great. And she talks about this sort of common anti-love trend among, she calls it feminists, a general disinterest in emotional connection with men. This is the sort of plague that she thinks going on at the moment.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  I agree, and I think it's found, just to kind of even out the playing field, it's also found amongst the red pill men. And like we spoke about before, when you feel like you can't access something, the best and quickest way to defend your ego is to pretend you don't want it. So when you feel like you're not worthy of love, and which I really think is a manifestation of low self-esteem. When you feel like you're not worthy of love, the quickest and easiest way to feel worthy is to pretend love is terrible, pretend love is toxic. And I see this a lot in red pill men and really high, like, proud feminists. Both cohorts tend to be people who personally probably believe that they're not desirable to the opposite gender. So the only way to get rid of that feeling of like being Undesired is to pretend you don't desire the opposite gender.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  So I see it both and they're almost a perfect match for each other. That blue haired, you know, feminist and that red pill guy, they're almost a perfect match because they're both almost have the same pathologies when it comes to their understanding of love. So they should get together. Yeah.

• 6:28Chris Williamson?

  That would be a very interesting relationship to observe. Yeah, I am. There's this idea called the inner citadel that people retreat into. If you can't get what you want, you must teach yourself to want what you can get.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:40Chris Williamson?

  And that's kind of what you're describing, you know, if I tell myself that all women are awful, then it doesn't force me to try and get into a relationship and therefore I don't need to feel the pain of heartbreak. If I tell myself that jobs are completely pointless, then I can sit in unemployment and not be concerned about not making progress toward my goals.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. But the problem with that is it prevents you from fulfilling your potential in life. Human beings are designed with the potential to love and nurture one another. And whenever we cap our potential, whether that's through, like we cap our potential physically, emotionally, psychologically, anything that involves capping our potential will lead to a slow and steady depression. That will signal to yourself that you're not fulfilling your potential and it will come out and manifest as a form of depression. So when you kind of ward off love, you're warding off your own full potential and therefore you will see an increase in your depression and anxiety. They even find studies where women, when they hold their partner's hand during labor, they experience less pain.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  That's how much we're designed to be in love. It's actually a pain relief. It's an anti-anxiety. They found loads of studies where they see people that, you know, sleep with lots of people in a communion, they sleep better. They don't have any like micro awakenings in the night. So our body craves it. Whether you psychologically convince yourself that you don't want it, your body will still speak to you and tell you that you need it. So unfortunately it doesn't work.

• 8:05Chris Williamson?

  The micro awakenings thing is really interesting. I remember learning it from Johann Hari that it's basically a, it's like a measure of comfort that people have in safety, right? So 15,000 years ago, you have gone out hunting and you decide to sleep in a cave that is away from where you usually would. It's adaptive for you as this nomadic person away from home to not go into quite as deep sleep because you can't be quite as assured that this particular location is safe. So one of the reasons why people get such bad night's sleep in hotels.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:38Chris Williamson?

  Because even if the room is quiet and it's dark and there's no LED blinking and room service doesn't come and accidentally knock on your door, it's still not your house. And we have this inbuilt micro awakening where you just come back up the threshold of consciousness and then dip back in again.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:53Chris Williamson?

  Two things that are interesting. If you have the sound of a crackling fire or the sound of snoring dogs, both of those reduce micro awakenings.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 9:03Chris Williamson?

  Fire would have scared away predators and the dogs would have been an early warning system.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Oh, amazing. So that, well, I read the same thing with Johann Hari's book, which is fantastic. Was it lost connections? Is that the right one? And yeah, so it's the same thing. Evolutionary wise, we're designed to sleep with others because that creates a sense of safety against predators. So when people come to me and they have insomnia, they have depression, the first thing I ask is what are your connections like? What is your relationships like with other people? And they convince themselves they don't want a relationship. But I do understand, there's a part of me, and I've spoken about this a little bit with, when I was speaking to my clients, I kind of, I can understand why the lazy kind of man that feels undesirable is avoiding relationships because there's a lot of effort for very little return. When the alternative is, I can either watch pornography

• 9:52Speaker 01

  or I can hire an escort. Again, little effort and a maximum return. So I get from a logical point of view, if I'm going to spend hundreds of pounds on a date and she might not even sleep with me, I could spend half of that on an escort and she definitely will. But the goal of life is not to get sex, it's to get connection. And that's what they're trying to skip, unfortunately.

• 10:13Chris Williamson?

  Have you reflected on the rise of escorts and sex work? I think it's pretty fascinating to look at the psychology of the women who do it and the men who pay for it.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the women who do it usually, and I think it's probably less now, but there's a big history of childhood sexual abuse. And the reason why child abuse often then becomes monetized sex work is because when we are violated as a child, men or women, when something is violated from us, the only way your ego kind of makes sense of what happens to you is to minimize the importance and significance of what was stolen from you. So if I was abused sexually, if I then minimize the importance of sex and then take some control by monetizing it and saying, I'm now in control of my body. I'm either going to be hyper promiscuous or I'm going to monetize it. What it does is minimizes the significance of sex and therefore I don't have to deal with the trauma I experienced.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  I now see sex as just an activity and therefore if I was abused, it's not that serious. And so the psychology of them is usually coming from a broken place. And also the other thing that they struggle with is knowing what loyalty looks like in a relationship. They don't see it as an essential component because they've monetized sex and taken away the emotion element to it. So it becomes very difficult for them to be sexually loyal to their partner. It's almost like they see sex as a bit as well as an activity. And if they do it with somebody else, why would that bother you? They don't understand the process. So they end up being quite emotionally disconnected, very transactional with their partners. And the relationships become, the relationships don't really last very long, unfortunately. They're a void of emotions and then it translates into their parenting as well.

• 11:50Chris Williamson?

  What about the psychology of the men who pay for it?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  The psychology of the man that actually goes towards it is usually he is somebody who is highly avoidant to begin with. There was some emotional disconnect in their parents in their household. So when you want to court a beautiful woman in the real world, she requires some emotional connection first and foremost, or at least at some point. Now, if you find it hard to experience emotional connection and you have the money to go from pornography to escorts, you skip the emotional component and go straight to escorts. Basically escorts are porn addicts with money.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, essentially, that is for them. And that low self-esteem, that's intense low self-esteem with the men that pay for escorts means that they don't believe they can access a woman of that caliber in real life. So let me at least pay in for it, and therefore I don't have to experience rejection. The reason why emotional kind of disconnect is so important for the customer is a man that understands emotional intelligence and understands a woman's emotions wouldn't feel comfortable having sex with a woman he knows doesn't want to be there. A guy that normally has emotional intelligence will think, oh, God, she's probably not enjoying this. And, oh, God, what trauma led her to get here? I don't want to have sex with somebody who doesn't want to have sex with me. But the man who skipped that emotional intelligence and just wants pleasure will not even think about the emotional

• 13:12Speaker 01

  trauma that got her to this position and just think, as long as she pleases me, I don't really care what it took to get her here. So that emotional disconnect in both of them, which is why they often fall in love with each other. Fall in love. Yeah, they often do end up together. And this is what I really hate about the narrative that they tell you that on these red pill podcasts that men want virgins, men want good girls. The amount of successful men that fall in love with the escorts is because they allow him to not emotionally connect, but then still boost his ego, which is what his dream come true. Whereas another woman requires that emotional connection before she can boost your ego. So the escort is just providing him with an ego boost with bearing in mind his emotional disabilities.

• 13:55Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting. I noticed.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Is it? Can I ask, is it big in in America as well? Because it's huge where I live.

• 14:01Chris Williamson?

  I haven't seen it. I mean, Dubai, I think, is a very particular Petri dish of like, unique dating. Maybe Miami. I mean, in fact, I would almost be certain with Miami.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  London is getting there as well. It's just as rampant in London as well.

• 14:15Chris Williamson?

  I'm noticing that you were in all of these locations. If you moved to Miami too, you would be the common denominator.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Maybe I'm the problem. Maybe I bring I bring the heat.

• 14:22Chris Williamson?

  So I noticed when I was at uni and I was running a lot of nightclubs and we would go, the only place that's open after three in the morning are the strip clubs, right? So we would go to the strip clubs. We would like, we'd know all of the girls because most of the girls would come out to one of our events in an evening time or whatever. And I noticed a lot of the girls were struggling.

• 14:41Chris Williamson?

  They would struggle to see men as like not genuine humans, but because their job required them to see men as resources to be extracted from, like anyone that's ever been to a proper working class strip club, right? There's still, you know, like girls in that, I'm not derogating the quality of the women. I'm talking about the kind of culture that comes through. They are fucking ruthless with how they take money from men. Like they're sitting on their lap. It's almost like a sales funnel. They understand the tricks that they can use to get a man to go for a dance, to get a man to stay with you and so on and so forth. They entered the game, like the arena of play is, if they've had too much to drink

• 15:26Chris Williamson?

  or they've done whatever, like probably shouldn't have gone to the strip club with your credit card, if that's the case. But what happened on the other side of that, I noticed that a lot of the girls struggled to make an emotional connection with guys in their personal life. And I think that trying to separate out, this is someone that I'm supposed to have a genuine connection with, and this is someone that I'm supposed to have a transactional connection with. These two, it doesn't surprise me that you can't, that these are going to bleed into each other. And the same has to be true with OnlyFans.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  What happens with OnlyFans and strippers and sex workers in general, the pool of women that they're left with are men they don't respect. The reality is women respect men with masculinity, alpha, protectiveness, providing, et cetera. Now, when you go into sex work, you are left with, firstly, your customers are incredibly low self-esteem, incredibly naive to even believe that you're going to be loyal to them. And even if he's not your customer, he's your boyfriend, but he accepts your sex work, a part of you doesn't see him as powerful and a provider and doesn't see him as protective. Because if he was truly protective, he wouldn't be with you. If he was a man that genuinely was an alpha man and wanted a good woman, he wouldn't be with you. So the type of men they truly respect

• 16:35Speaker 01

  wouldn't be with them. So the only men, they can, they definitely can't fall in love with the guy that is, you know, giving them money. The closest thing they get to that is the pimp. That's taking money from them because at least then they kind of respect the fact that he he's using her in a way, but to be manipulated by her, she feels more powerful than him and therefore can't respect him.

• 16:56Chris Williamson?

  I wonder how many girls in strip clubs get into relationships with the bouncers.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:01Chris Williamson?

  And the door staff.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:02Chris Williamson?

  And the manager and stuff like that.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  They end up more, they're just more likely to be with a man that they provide for than a one that provides for them, because a man that provides for a stripper, there's a stupidity in that, because you know this woman's transactional and yet you're giving her money, she can't respect you, but the man she has to pay for, whether he's like a bouncer that's on half her wage, or he's just a personal trainer that she has to cover the rent for, she's more likely to fall in love with him, because at least he's not stupid enough to financially invest in me. And a part of her unconsciously respects him more than the CEO that's going to buy you a house and a Range Rover because she's like, you're so stupid.

• 17:37Chris Williamson?

  What have you come to reflect on about the psychology of slut shaming?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Um, it's a way of validating poor decision making. So when we use the word you're slut shaming, what we're really saying is stop pointing out the flaws in my flawed behaviour. Essentially, we need a society filled with guilt, shame and regret. We need to be aware of these emotions. If we remove shame from our society, and we call it fat shaming, slut shaming, essentially we find a way of normalising what is abnormal behaviour. And when we do that, we then become reckless. We need guilt, shame and regret to help direct us into making proper decision making, responsible decision making, healthy decision making. So whenever you hear the word that's fat shaming and that's slut shaming, if the word

• 18:24Speaker 01

  before it is negative, then the actual, the concept is broken.

• 18:29Chris Williamson?

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• 19:14Chris Williamson?

  they are that you love it. Head to the link in the description below or go to drink l m n t dot com slash modern wisdom to get a free sample pack of all eight flavors with your first box. That's drink l m n t dot com slash modern wisdom. Yeah. Well, what would you say to the people who say we've had a sexual revolution, Sadia? We don't need like girls can sleep with guys as much as they want to. This is the new world. Get up to date now. It's 2023. Why should it be the case that that is negative, shameful, guilt riddled behavior?

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Because you're the one saying that men are trash and yet you're sleeping with them all day every day. You're the it's the women that sleep around the most that will say men are trash. The women in healthy relationships are not usually the ones saying that. So if this formula is working, why are you allowing trash to enter your vagina?

• 20:06Chris Williamson?

  I had an idea. I had a theory about the game theory of slut shaming and the game theory of simp shaming as well. I want to teach you about. Okay. So as far as I can see, more slut shaming comes from women than it does from men, right? Which might be on the surface surprising, but a bit more inspection. It makes sense. Yeah. The reason that more slut shaming comes from women than it does from men is because women are invested in other women not lowering the price of sex too low. Yeah. Men would happily have the price of sex be zero, right? If you are prepared to give blowjobs on the third date, but I want to wait until the fifth day. I'm also a girl. Yeah. And I want to wait until the fifth date. It's in my interests to raise the price of sex.

• 20:51Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Right. By shaming anybody who is more sexually promiscuous than I am. Yeah. So the problem that women are trying to combat is women who give sex without loyalty or resources. Right. They want to raise the amount of loyalty and resources that other women use before they will give away sexual access. Now, what I realized, I think is true. Men simp shame for the exact same reason in the opposite direction.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:18Chris Williamson?

  So women are concerned about sex without resources. Men are concerned with resources without sex.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:23Chris Williamson?

  Right? So what a simp is fundamentally doing is saying, I will give away one of the few things that men are supposed to hold in the highest value.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:33Chris Williamson?

  Which is their ability to provide.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 21:35Chris Williamson?

  And I will give you that in return for nothing.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:38Chris Williamson?

  Right? Or in return for some messages through a platform or perhaps just financially dominated or sugar babying your way through college or traveling or whatever it is that you want to do. So I feel like the energy is very similar.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:52Chris Williamson?

  Between these two, simp shaming and slut shaming.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 21:55Chris Williamson?

  Both of them are trying to ensure that competitors of the same sex don't give away the most valuable resource, which they don't want to have the price of derogated too low. What do you think?

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Absolutely. It's a form of intra-sexual selection, which in evolutionary psychology just simply means your competition within your sex. Now, the quickest and easiest way for women to kind of beat the competition is verbal aggression. And one of the things that slut shaming does is firstly, of course, like you mentioned, it reduces the value of sex. So you're competing with people who give it for free. But in addition, by slut shaming, it's our way of unconsciously trying to put other men off that woman. Now, people only slut shame attractive women. You don't see, there are many unattractive women who are also sleeping with lots and lots of men. But what happens with women, they only feel the need to shame when the person is a threat in any way, shape or form. You will not see unattractive women get as many trolls as attractive women online.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  And you will not get, unattractive women who sleep around get as many slut shaming comments as sexually attractive.

• 22:56Chris Williamson?

  Because they're seen as less of a threat.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  They're not a threat. So essentially, what intra-sexual selection does is it makes women use verbal aggression against one another, but only if she's a threat. If she's not a former threat, we actually turn it into praise because then it works to actually be friends with women because you can share. Breastfeeding, childrearing in evolutionary terms.

• 23:15Chris Williamson?

  Allo-parenting.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if she is any form of threat, she can potentially take your partner and take your resources. So whenever women are slut-shaming and stuff, they usually focus on the women that they think that their partner would find attractive. So they might not slut-shame, let's say for example, she's an Englishman, they might not slut-shame the workers in Thailand and stuff like that, but they would slut-shame the local OnlyFans girls because it's more of a threat. So essentially, we verbally attack those that we see as the biggest threat and that will reduce the ability of us to secure resources from a man.

• 23:46Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, very interesting. Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  And a sad thing as well, because I get a lot of hate from women, particularly from women, saying that I don't side with women enough. And I always just say, you have no idea what it's like to be around women, like, well, maybe they do, but for me personally, I've only ever, ever experienced negativity from women, especially in the workplace. So it's hard for me to really be like, women are amazing, women empowerment, women, women, women, when I'm know from my personal experience, we don't support each other at all.

• 24:13Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that's, it's a ruthless sort of realisation. I had Joyce Benenson on, I've had Christina Durante on, I've had Dr Sarah Hill on. You know, a lot of evolutionary psychology researchers who are looking at intersexual competition, Candace Blake. And one of the things that Joyce looked at was the body language of female basketball teams. She found that male opponents showed more physical affection to each other than female compatriots. So men on opposite teams of a basketball court.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Are still nicer to each other.

• 24:49Chris Williamson?

  Were more like physically affectionate than girls that were on the same team. And I think that there's a lot of stuff going on with hierarchy, how that works. It's the same reason why girls don't talk about their achievements academically if they know that other people are going to find out. Because stepping outside of the hierarchy is something that's a little bit dangerous. And that's kind of ruthless, right? Like. It should be the case as a girl that if you succeed and do something well, that you should be able to like be proud about it. And you should be able to proclaim it and other people should say, yeah, fuck, you did good.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:17Chris Williamson?

  And one of the disadvantages, men are ruthless to each other in very specific ways, but so are women.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, and the thing is with men, they would hunt and gather in tribes. So it makes sense for them to have camaraderie and be part of a group. For women, we wouldn't necessarily use each other to go hunt. We would only feel secure once we've secured the person that gives us resources. So that's why married women tend to be, who are happily in relationships, tend to be less verbally hostile to ones that are single. So single women together are tend to be more verbally hostile to one another than when those are happily spoken for, because they're no longer in that competition zone. So unfortunately, the reality of female and female empowerment, it only works if you're not threatened by each other. The moment there's a form of threat, they become very hostile and very aggressive. And so it's very difficult to have a platform where you're trying to just educate people about human nature as a woman,

• 26:09Speaker 01

  because you'll get very much a lot of hatred from other women. So it's not the easiest.

• 26:13Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. What's your, what are your qualifications?

• 26:15Speaker 01

  I'm a psychologist. So what I did is I did a psychology degree, then I followed my masters. Then I actually just went into teaching, so I went into teaching, but then I did psychodynamic diploma.

• 26:24Chris Williamson?

  Okay. Is psychologist not like a protected term? Do you not need to have a doctorate or something for that?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  You do if you're a research psychologist and if you're going to go into like clinical psychology.

• 26:33Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So I haven't done a doctorate. I would like to, but it takes a long time.

• 26:37Chris Williamson?

  Got you. Okay. Talk to me about the problem with nice guys, then, talking about simps.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Essentially, what nice guys do is what they suffer with is not that they're too nice or anything. It's just that they have incredibly weak boundaries when it comes to women. They simply, and not actually not just women, it could be anybody. What they do is they lack a lot of masculinity and what they do is they blame the fact that they're so nice as to why they can't get women. But it's not about being nice, it's about a lack of masculinity. And one of the best ways to establish masculinity is placing boundaries, particularly with women. When you don't like a behavior, you don't roll over and allow it to continue and then give her more in order for you to get her. You set a boundary and you have a willingness to walk away. Nice guys, what happens is they don't like to exert their boundaries and they don't have a willingness to walk away.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  So what ends up happening is a nice nature becomes a reason for resentment because women don't like it. They actually feel angry when you're too nice to them because then they don't feel protected. They feel like you're weak. If you let a woman make all the decisions for you, she'll slowly start to hate you. Because she'll feel like she has to raise you and she'll lose respect for you. So you're better, what we truly want is not a man that is just like chaotic. We just want a man who we can trust makes good decisions. He's not the nice guy, he's the one that we'll submit to. But the one that doesn't trust his own decision making and we have to do it and he comes across as being nice, essentially he's seen as weak.

• 27:59Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, overly pliable.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:02Chris Williamson?

  Is the term that I think about.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Could you like, how do you as a man make sure that you're nice and not weak? Like, it must be difficult because in this day and age, if you try and be like a bit more assertive, that I'm guessing it gets a lot of pushback. It's it's hard for a man.

• 28:18Chris Williamson?

  I don't know, I think you'd be surprised. I think that, you know, the line of acceptable behaviour is way wider than most people think. Right? You know, you you can be assertive in a powerful reassuring way without being a tyrant. It's pretty, it's pretty easy to achieve.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:39Chris Williamson?

  Right? I I I don't think that it's that hard. But I also understand that a lot of people don't have a massive amount of first hand experience.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:48Chris Williamson?

  They're they're spending all of their time learning about things through the internet. They don't actually have the, you need to be skillful and nimble, right? To be able, flirting and dealing with even the same sex, let alone the opposite sex, is like a delicate balance, right? It's a bit of a dance, it's a bit of teasing, is it too far, is it too much? Like, you know, it's, it requires experience and most people don't have the opportunity to develop.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  And it's really easy to have the willingness to walk away when you're somebody that has a lot of alternatives and doesn't just mean other women. It could be a lifestyle that is alternative to being settled down. But when you're somebody that doesn't have many alternatives, the willingness to walk away decreases. So I do understand it's very difficult for men to have that. But without the willingness to walk away, she'll look for a man that does have the willingness to walk away. She'll look for a man that does have boundaries because we need them as women.

• 29:35Chris Williamson?

  It's strange and I also understand that it must be ruthless to think, oh, I would really like a nice guy. Maybe your last relationship was with some dude that was in very avoidant, uh, like masculine in a non-supporting way. And you think, okay, well, I'll go for a nice guy, I'll go for a guy that's a bit more pliable and a lot more agreeable. And then if what you're saying is true and you end up resenting them and you go. That wasn't what I wanted either. So it must be difficult. It must be difficult for a girl.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Essentially, what we truly want is a man whose decision making on his own is one that we can naturally submit to. What I mean by that is if I have to tell you to do this, that and the other, and you listen to me, I don't respect you anymore. Because if I had to tell you and you listen to me and I'm better than you at making decisions, I'm more powerful than you, I don't feel protected. You simply have to be a man that could literally take a girl by her hand and lead her into whatever lifestyle it is, but she feels safe in that knowledge. But if you're the type of guy who's like second guessing himself, if you're second guessing yourself and then submitting to me, it's we automatically don't find that attractive.

• 30:37Chris Williamson?

  That can't be the same for every girl though, right? There must be a spectrum of women.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  It it works well for women who are planning to manipulate you. So the women that are planning to manipulate and planning to use a man, they love this guy without boundaries. The one that's the girl that genuinely wants to have a connection with you, build a family with you, have a network with you, she actually wants you to have a backbone and wants you to have an opinion. The one that's planning to not stick around too long, the one that's planning to be with, keep in touch with another guy, the guy that a girl that wants an alimony as soon as the kids arrive, that's the one that wants you to be this people pleaser, bend over backwards, do everything I say.

• 31:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. What about people pleasers more generally on the girl's side and on the guy's side?

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Well, I guess they would be a similar match. But what happened with with two people pleasers, like where the woman is just a nice girl and the guys are just a nice guy, they don't create an authentic connection because neither of them are giving each other the glue or the vulnerability to attach. One saying, I'll just do what you want. The other one's, okay, I'll just do what you want. We don't know each other. We're just a comfort blanket. But one of them at least has to be a bit disagreeable to create that connection, give you that kind of glue to attach to. So unfortunately, two people pleasers don't usually end up together.

• 31:44Chris Williamson?

  Did you watch Succession?

• 31:46Speaker 01

  No, I didn't.

• 31:47Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so it's pretty cool. It's this series on HBO and I think it's really early on, maybe the one of the first few episodes in the first season. And this tyrannical father is pointing at his only daughter, who's just got married to a guy who's very pliable, at least for the first few seasons, unbelievably pliable, right? He is a bit of a social climber, the potential future husband, bit of a social climber, he kind of wants to be a part of the crew, so to speak. And he says, the dad is just fucking going around the room like, this is something I don't like about you. And this is something I don't like about you. And he points at Shiv, the daughter, and he says, you married a man that's beneath you because you're terrified of being betrayed. Fucking painful. But in that moment, I saw something that's very true.

• 32:32Chris Williamson?

  You know, the people that are scared of losing their partner.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:36Chris Williamson?

  A lot of the time will date down aggressively, date down. Because they know that they're so far ahead of what that partner would typically be in a relationship with. With Shiv, it's largely resources and money and access, which is kind of strange because the dynamics flipped typically from the way it would be. But um, yeah, that just, that really, it's like one of the most brutal insults, like insults both of them at the same time with one thing. You married a man that's beneath you because you're terrified of being betrayed.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  And it's very true. A lot of women and men use that strategy, but the problem is you almost guarantee the divorce. If I marry someone beneath me to prevent him cheating on me, that doesn't change the other aspect that is required for a healthy relationship, which is bringing equal value to each other's life. And when one feels like they are married beneath, below, it doesn't work out either. The true connection comes when you both bring equal value and you don't, and you choose to be with each other rather than you know he can't do any better or she can't do any better. Eventually that catches up because a person with low self-esteem who feels like they've, you know, been punching, eventually starts to get so much low self-esteem that they might seek external validation. So they might be more likely to cheat or more likely to betray you because at some

• 33:49Speaker 01

  point they can feel that you know, they know that you know that you're above them and that low self-esteem can create a desire to connect outside. So unfortunately, there isn't really a cure to that other than true connection. But one thing I would say about people pleasing, they say that it's linked to an absent father. They say that people, what has it, having a father figure does is that rough and tumble kind of play and that harsh criticism gets you in the habit of speaking truth, even if it's not the nicest thing to do. Whereas the absence of that can actually make you think that you're going to offend because it's easy to offend mum, it's harder to offend dad. So when you get in, used to that rough and tumble kind of verbal altercations with fathers, it prepares you for the real world of where you are less sensitive and more likely to be truthful rather than people pleasing.

• 34:33Chris Williamson?

  What about the opposite then? What about treat them mean, keep them keen as opposed to people pleasing?

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Um. Again, another tactic um that's very much advocated in current dating, but is again counterproductive because the moment you treat people mean, you filter out healthy people. Healthy people don't stick around to be treated badly. That doesn't go in line with their template of relationships. Healthy people have a template of relationship that requires mutual respect. Now, when they're with somebody who treats them mean, they filter themselves out. They understand they might work on it for a little bit, but they recognize where they're not welcome. Um. When you're treating them mean, keeping them keen, you're attaching to somebody that has incredibly low self-esteem, who expects to be treated like this, who will then, when you start, when you stop playing that game and actually want to commit to that person, or particularly that girl, she'll become volatile. She'll self-sabotage because

• 35:24Speaker 01

  she's so used to being treated mean. Commitment doesn't actually feel good. It feels unfamiliar. So she'll recreate some chaos in order to create the separation because treating them mean, keeping them keen, doesn't work, unfortunately.

• 35:37Chris Williamson?

  Do you think men and women can be friends?

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Yes, I do. Do you think they can be friends?

• 35:41Chris Williamson?

  I've seen it go both ways.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 35:44Chris Williamson?

  More times than not, it seems to mess up. But I it's it's not impossible. I've got a number of friends who have managed to do that totally platonically.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Um. Do you have female friends?

• 35:57Chris Williamson?

  Do I have female friends? I do. I do have some, yeah, but they're mostly kind of from the industry, from podcasting.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 36:03Chris Williamson?

  Uh. Michaela Peterson's probably one of my closest friends on the planet.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Great.

• 36:07Chris Williamson?

  Um. Yeah, so it's some, but it's it's, I think it's tough. I think it's tough.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  What do you think makes it tough about having female friends?

• 36:16Chris Williamson?

  Well, just that the line between what you have and what you're familiar with when it comes to guys and girls and the line of romantic desirability is pretty fine.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Um.

• 36:29Chris Williamson?

  And it only needs to be confused by one party.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:32Chris Williamson?

  For the relation, for the friendship to break down.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Um.

• 36:35Chris Williamson?

  Right? It doesn't need both people to want it to happen. If both people want it to happen, the friendship turns into a relationship.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:40Chris Williamson?

  If one person wants it to happen, the friendship's no longer a friendship.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  You're right. So it's just.

• 36:44Chris Williamson?

  You've got a lot of different ways. And then, let's forget that. Let's say that one of either people gets into a relationship with someone that isn't in the friendship.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:52Chris Williamson?

  Then there's like. Two more people that can have a problem. You can't see that person anymore. I don't like it when you go around her house. I don't like it when you spend time with him. So there's so many different ways that this can go wrong.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  I understand. And one thing I would like to point out about that, because men can never understand why females can have male friends. But we tend to believe that we can have male friends. And the reason why we kind of think like this is because we would rather have somebody, a friend who secretly loves us than a female friend that secretly hates us. And you guys don't have to experience that. Usually when men don't like each other, they separate from each other. Women, when they don't like each other, they'll make reservations together and they'll still go on holidays together and they'll still keep in each other's lives. So when we crave male friendships, it's because you don't know the pain, well, not necessarily pain, that sounds a bit exaggerated, but the difficulty in finding good female friendships, that are not as easy for us. For men, if they play a sport together, they can pretty much be friends.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  For us, you can do everything right with a female friendship. All it takes is you know, a birthday gone wrong, or a boyfriend that they don't like, or a boyfriend that they both like. And the entire friendship is destroyed. And there's a safety in a male friendship that we can't find in female friendships. Because it's very difficult to find women that are totally not threatened by you in any way, shape or form by other women. And that's even when you're, I'm not saying just when you're attractive, even when you're less attractive, you still have friends similar level of attractiveness. So there is a form of threat even there. So that's the first thing I think women can, why women can have better friendships with men. The other thing is, I just think if you are a woman or a man of value beyond your sexual kind of prouledness, if you've got something other to offer,

• 38:30Speaker 01

  isn't it natural that men, women, old, young, everybody's going to gravitate towards you and want to be around you? I just think it's natural, it's a natural consequence of being a valuable person is that people gravitate towards you. In the male and female form, they will gravitate towards you. So to kind of have an arbitrary rule that you can't have male and can't have female, it would only work if your personality is limited. If you have a limited personality, if I'm a girl that only talks about hair and makeup, of course I can only have female friends. But if I'm a woman that can have a lot of different types of conversations, it's natural to be able to connect with different type of people.

• 39:02Chris Williamson?

  There's two things that makes me think about. First, I had the Director of Relationship Science from Hinge, Logan Urie, on the show about. A year and a half ago, and she taught me about people confuse spark in the beginning of a relationship for something special without realizing that some people are just sparky to everyone.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:24Chris Williamson?

  And that was a really interesting insight, and it's kind of like what you're talking about here, right? That if you're somebody that's interesting and trustworthy and of high value in the world, people are just going to gravitate toward you because you're a nice person to know.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:36Chris Williamson?

  You're useful, you're cool, you're fun to be around, you're interesting, right? So there are certain people who just suck others in, right? Now, the second thing, have you heard of the overperception and underperception bias of attraction? So this is really interesting, it's out of evolutionary psychology. So men overperceive the level of attraction that they believe women have toward them, and women underperceive the level of attraction that men have toward them.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:05Chris Williamson?

  To refer to as a failure of cross-sex mind reading. And this shows up very reliably in the data. David Buss put this out in Bad Men or Men Behaving Badly, depending on which country you're in. This is why a boss or a coworker will maybe make an ungainly move, apart from like the creeps like Harvey Weinstein and stuff like that, make an ungainly move because they will believe that, oh yeah, you know, her eyes always linger on me, she always makes it to the water cooler at the same time that I do, she's always in the, printing her stuff in the cupboard the same time that I do as well, maybe I should try and ask her out.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:42Chris Williamson?

  It is much more useful for men to have a smoke alarm that goes off a lot and is wrong a lot, but is right every so often.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:49Chris Williamson?

  Because the price of missing a potential signal is really high.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:55Chris Williamson?

  And the cost of noticing a signal that wasn't there is essentially zero.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:00Chris Williamson?

  Right? The reverse for women, in speed dating, they did this, they put men and women down at a speed dating event, asked both of them, how attracted were you to the other one? Women regularly rated that they were way less attracted to the man than the man thought, and the reverse true too. This is the failure of cross-sex mind reading and it explains so much about the world that men and women inhabit because we don't inhabit the same world. I don't see my interaction with you the same way that you see your interaction with me. And this reliably smeared across an entire population is why men and women don't understand each other. Because we do not have the same brains and we don't see the world in the same way.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  You know, but when I do deal with clients who are, you know, men who are very lonely and who struggle with female connection, I do ask them, do you have any female friends? And the answer is invariably no. And I always say that you need them. And they're like, no, we shouldn't be friends, la, la, la. Men and women can't be friends. And I said, but they're training ground for women in the real world. Because when you have female friends, they teach you what things upset women, what things up there and make them happy, what they mean by when they text slowly, when they text fast, when they don't text at all. They teach you so much that you can't learn from women directly. Because when a woman is in love with a man, she can't help but play stupid games. Because it's part of a protection strategy. So what she'll do is say she's done when she's not done. Or say she doesn't want to sleep with you when she does want to sleep with you.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  She'll say the opposite of what she truly means. But having female friends helps you understand this human psychology behind a woman in a way that experience, direct experience with them won't. So that's why I actually say, because so many of my male friends will be like, this girl just did that. And I'm like, oh, that means she wants you to do da, da, da. And you translate it.

• 42:37Chris Williamson?

  You can see the code, not the matrix.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Because we speak in code. Yeah.

• 42:41Chris Williamson?

  Well, so Destiny, who you should speak to at some point, because I think you guys.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Who I think is great, by the way.

• 42:47Chris Williamson?

  Destiny's fascinating dude.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Who I think is fantastic.

• 42:49Chris Williamson?

  Very, very, very, very big fan of Destiny.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:51Chris Williamson?

  He said that someone asked him what the best piece of dating advice he is, he could give to guys. And he says during high school, have lots of female friends. He apparently just hung with this big group of guys and girls and had tons of female friends and did exactly what you said. We'll get back to talking to Sadia in one minute, but first I need to tell you about Factor. If you are too busy this autumn to cook, but still want to make sure that you're eating well, Factor is the solution. With Factor, you can skip the extra trip to the grocery store, plus all of the chopping and prepping and cleaning up while still getting the flavour and nutritional quality that you need. Factor's fresh. Never frozen meals are ready in just two minutes. So all you have to do is heat and enjoy. And right now their autumn menu has some absolute bangers like a cranberry pecan chicken

• 43:35Chris Williamson?

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• 44:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Growing up, all my friends were men and I still have a really large circle of male friends. My birthdays, every year, my birthday, if there's a table like this, 80% of them will be my male friends.

• 44:26Chris Williamson?

  Is that not an Islam thing though, rather than like a friend thing?

• 44:29Speaker 01

  As in likewise?

• 44:31Chris Williamson?

  You've just, as far as I'm aware, the typical Muslim family would have like the fucking uncles are over and all of the rest of it.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  We do have a big male dominance in our, in our world. Technically, we shouldn't really be interacting opposite genders. I know I shouldn't be, but I do. I'll be honest, I say haram.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  So I do, and I have a huge, and then, but the thing is, what it meant is, I have a plethora of understanding about the male psyche that I could never get from a textbook. A lot of people will say to me, when it comes to my content online, they say, you have a very unique perspective. How do you know this? And I said, honestly, it's because I have so many males around me and I have an interest in them. So I'll ask loads and loads of questions. I'll understand their relationships. I meet their girlfriends and I understand. So it gives me up to date data about what's going on with men. And, but I am, I am biased because what happens is I naturally only know men who are confident, but I don't know what the psychology as much of the guy that's stuck in his mom's basement and addicted to pornography. And I think I'm learning that by how triggered they get by certain conversations online.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  So I just think, like Destiny said, it definitely does give you a framework of understanding the male brain that you can't get through other women.

• 45:42Chris Williamson?

  That would be. An unbelievably unpopular piece of advice to give to a lot of the manosphere to say that one of the best things you could do would be to be friends with women so that it's a low stakes training ground for finding a partner down the line because it's kind of common advice that you don't need any women in your life that like all you need is your boys, what could I ever get from a woman, et cetera, et cetera. There was this massive debate, did the sexual revolution fail that happened this week in LA and one of my friends Louise Perry was on one of the sides, Grimes was opposite her, Tim Dillon was there, it was mediated by Barry Weiss and Rob Henderson, one of my friends tweeted this earlier on, it's amazing, says, there's lots of discussion at the sexual revolution

• 46:26Chris Williamson?

  debate about whether the revolution failed men or failed women or helped men more than women or helped women more than men. Nobody asked whether the sexual revolution failed children. People already know it's too depressing of a topic.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely accurate. It basically failed both genders, but when you fail both genders, you fail children because they're the remnants of two broken people. So I think it's massively failed children, but I think in some ways it's definitely favoured the man that has no desire to invest and have responsibility. That's the only man that favours from this is he gets a bunch of women to have low enough self-esteem that they will be able to allow him access without any investment. Meanwhile, while he's getting, he can then go on to meet the girl he actually wants to be with whilst this girl is happy to come at four AM after a night out. So it's the opposite of feminism. It's allowing men free rein over females and whilst investing very, very little. I don't know who tricked women

• 47:23Speaker 01

  into thinking that this is beneficial, but whoever did is probably a man.

• 47:26Chris Williamson?

  And then down the line from that, they've also managed to trick women into believing that it's fine for the guy to stay at home and play video games and make sure that the sandwiches are done all day. You can go out and earn the money. Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's such a trope, but people make these funny tweets online about how the patriarchy is so powerful it conned women into providing for men as well.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the other thing that I know, I spoke about this quite recently is the, like the pushing the bisexuality, which only again benefits.

• 47:52Chris Williamson?

  What's that? I haven't heard you talk about this.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Pornography, there is a lot of emphasis on girl on girl. And there's a lot of threesomes and so on and so forth. And in my personal experience, seeing a lot of straight women engage in threesome activities. Primarily to please the man, but they'll convince themselves that they like girls, but they only seem to like girls in the presence of their partner that suggested the threesome. And they only seem to like the girl that their partner had an insight into selecting. And you know, it's not true bisexuality, because when their husband or their partner's not there, they no longer have this interest in women. And also, when they really care about the guy, they don't engage in the threesome. And I know when they love the guy a lot, they don't want to share him. But if you were truly bisexual, you wouldn't have that jealousy, because you'd be like, this is an equal playing field. I also get to touch the girl.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  But what I think that's happened is the rise in kind of experimenting, sexual experimenting is again only benefiting men. I know so many men that are in open relationships where he can sleep with other women, but she can't sleep with other men, but she can sleep with other women. Who benefits from that?

• 48:51Chris Williamson?

  So the presumption is that they're not actually bisexual, right? It does seem, looking at some of the data, like women are more bisexual than men are. Genuinely bisexual, at least self identifying outside of relationships. But yes, I would, I would agree that I was surprised with this rise of the one sided open relationship. In Austin, there's a lot of marriages where we're open, but it's only girls and it's only when we're together. I maybe, maybe this is what they want.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  I would be curious what the data would be amongst women who've never watched porn and their level of bisexuality. I would imagine women who have never watched porn, they're bi, they, they would have lower rates of bisexuality than women who are addicts or watch regularly. And who are partnered with men who also make the suggestion about threesomes. I would wonder how many women who without the external influences, because we've been taught for many, many years in the recent data that homosexuality and bisexuality is innate and it's something you're born with. But if the advent of pornography increased it, then it must have some external forces behind it.

• 50:01Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Well, there's one of the.

• 50:05Chris Williamson?

  Legitimations for this is the left-handedness argument and it's used for trans people, but it might apply here. It's kind of a useful frame, so I'll tell everybody and let me spin a yarn. So during the Middle Ages, people who were left-handed were seen as being touched by the devil. They were seen as being witches, right? So it caused lots of people who would have been left-handed to hide their left-handedness. They weren't their true selves.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:31Chris Williamson?

  As the world began to realise that being left-handed wasn't associated with being a witch or a wizard, that was relinquished. And I think the percentage went from less than five to around about 12% of the population is left-handed. That's there being their true selves.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:48Chris Williamson?

  There is an argument made that one of the reasons, one of the justifications for an increase in trans youths and trans adults is that previously, the judgements of society created a glass ceiling that made people keep it away because they were worried about being judged. Now that the judgement has been released, I'm free to be my open and honest self.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Um, in terms of transgender, that doesn't explain the suicide rate still being exactly the same despite the world now accepting it. So there must be an underlying mental health concern that may have then be a precursor to the gender kind of not identifying it. In terms of bisexuality, what I would then ask is if we have now removed the stigma for bisexuality, why are not more men saying to their wives, can we add a man to the mix? Can we have it where, you know, you can sleep with lots of men and I can sleep with lots of men? Why is that not being seen as sexy?

• 51:42Chris Williamson?

  That is a strange thought experiment to consider.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Why are there not women there saying, oh, can your friend come and you two do things? And I just watch? That doesn't happen. Women are not sitting there telling their husband, can you tell your friend to come over and you two just do, I promise I won't get involved? The way men do. Men are sitting there.

• 51:57Chris Williamson?

  How do you think, so I think that there's definitely an asymmetry going on here.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:02Chris Williamson?

  With how men see their partner, their female partner being with another female.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:06Chris Williamson?

  How do you think? Women would perceive their male partner being with another man.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  There's no going back from that, from most women. Once he's got, once he's, for most women, I'm not speaking of all women. But once they see the man go, because the, the thing is, women, when they provide each other with sexual stimulation, it's nothing really a man can't do also. But when a man provides another man with sexual stimulation, women can't compete with that. It's a completely different experience. So therefore, we're like, you don't like, you, there's nothing I can do for you. Yeah, you're at the wrong shop here, son. You have to go back to, but with women, I think when men are watching on other women, there's nothing that they can do to each other that they, he can't really get involved in.

• 52:48Chris Williamson?

  There's something strange. I, I don't know why, but it feels like a one-way street that goes in opposite directions. A woman that's bisexual, every man presumes that it's just a phase.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:59Chris Williamson?

  And that she'll go back from a liquid diet onto a solid diet eventually. Every man that's bisexual.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:06Chris Williamson?

  Uh, more men that are bisexual are considered to just be in the closet but have not fully committed to doing it yet.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:12Chris Williamson?

  And I don't know where this comes from. I have no idea whether or not this has actually shown up in the data.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:16Chris Williamson?

  There's definitely more bisexual women and there's more gay men.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:20Chris Williamson?

  I know this.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  But I, from speaking to bisexual men, they say that they, if they are bisexual, they end up just choosing homosexuality because I know women don't really accept bisexuality in them.

• 53:30Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting. So it's not necessarily what they want, it's what they can get.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  In my experience of working with bisexual men, usually the bisexuality is not always, but can be linked to some childhood sexual abuse. With childhood, and the, uh, the data also supports this, and the rates of childhood sexual abuse that leads to bisexuality in men is higher than amongst heterosexuals. So usually what happens is they may have experienced some abuse by, uh, uh, somebody of the same gender. Now what happens is as a result of that experience, it still creates a template of sexual desire that they don't, they, they are open to exploring as an adult as a way of reducing the trauma. When we've been traumatized, the only way that we think we can re-untraumatize ourselves is by voluntarily, like, re-traumatizing ourselves.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  So they end up exploring a little bit or being a bit curious and stuff, but maybe they were actually heterosexual, but that trauma led them astray. And if they, they wanna go back to being heterosexual, women aren't as accepting. And so they end up sometimes just going down.

• 54:25Chris Williamson?

  Um, it's a brutal situation that you get into because you have to either choose to be untruthful to your partner if they ever ask about your sexual history, or.

• 54:37Chris Williamson?

  Agree to open up about something that you're fearful about how they're going to respond. It's kind of the same as the sort of one way street of doing OnlyFans or sex work as a woman, that you are going to have to concede that in future you're either going to have to tell your partner and deal with the potential ramifications of that, or you're going to have to not tell them.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  And when it's a partner that accepts it and knows about it, he usually, when it comes to the OnlyFans, is somebody who's addicted to pornography and almost likes that. But the man that's addicted to pornography is very difficult for an OnlyFans woman to be with because they're usually men who still require novelty and still require more women. And so it enhances the low self-esteem for her, unfortunately.

• 55:18Chris Williamson?

  There was this stat that I put in my newsletter this week. Involuntary childlessness is a male problem too. Twenty five percent of men over forty two do not have children, five percent more than women of the same age group. Almost forty percent have experienced depression, twenty five percent feel a deep anger. There is a lot of publicity, quite rightly, about women and childlessness, but men are very mute about this, and that was in The Guardian.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. And I completely agree because one thing that men online, their voice online to kind of shame women is, well, you don't have kids, you don't have kids. But unfortunately, who suffers more from when you don't have kids? What they find is women without kids and without marriage earn, I think, about seventy percent more than men that don't have marriage and kids because marriage and kids gives men a purpose and meaning that they can't derive from anything else. It gives them the motivation to work harder, it gives them the motivation to do those hard jobs that pay more. It gives them a will to live. With women, we can still find connections with our friends and family and parents, and we can spread out our connections. But if you look at most men, like if we look at your fathers and like, you know, in that generation, without their wives, they're a bit lost.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  I know my dad would not know what to do with his day if my mom wasn't around. And as they age, one of the things that doctors always say, the first thing that as you get older and you go to the doctors, they'll say to you, have you got a wife? And even with my dad, when they do a checkup, have you got a wife? Because why? Because the rate of healing after surgery is faster and quicker when you have a wife. And your rate of recovery from cancer is better when you have a wife. Somebody checking in on you does a lot for a man because they don't get that from their social network as much as women do. So a woman aging alone, I'm not saying it's a good thing. But she's more adapted to it than a man aging alone, who then starts to self sabotage. And actually, kind of, life becomes a slow suicide for them.

• 57:08Chris Williamson?

  I had a look at Dr. Robert Waldinger, the guy who is currently heading the longest ever longitudinal study of happiness. And marriage seems to add about four years of lifespan to a man. For a woman, it's round about the same. So men get, you know, for all of the, marriage is a terrible deal for guys. She's going to take everything in the divorce. Don't get me wrong, you know, there's a lot of divorce and it's, it's, it's not great for either party. But the deal for men is really fucking good. You want to live four years longer, like find a partner.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  And earn more and responsible more. But one thing I would say is that the family laws are so horrible in certain countries. And I'm a big advocate for marriage, but mainly because I come from a spiritual or religious background. But from a non religious background, I can see why it seems like a death sentence to get the law involved and to get married because she can walk away with a lot, even if like she was out to blame. So I can understand where the fear comes from, but you almost have to take that risk in order to get the reward of a stable, responsible life.

• 58:12Chris Williamson?

  The risk is, the risk is increasing and the reward has stayed the same.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  But the risk can be mitigated by good selection. When you start trusting your decisions, you'll be less likely to be fearful of these consequences. But when you make poor decisions, of course, everything is a risk.

• 58:28Chris Williamson?

  Why do you think there's this generalized culture of anti children and family creation at the moment?

• 58:36Speaker 01

  I wonder where that's stemming from. I do think it's a sad reality. I don't know where that's coming from. I just think the reality is there's so many alternatives to having kids now. You can travel, you can really become something. If you want to become famous, you can become famous, you can travel the world, you can make a lot of money, you can do all of these things. But, you know, if you speak to people who have even, you know, scored goals in the World Cup, they'll still tell you that their best moment of their life is when their child is born. So I think it's a really negative thing to place, to kind of put on society. I think the reality is when you know that you're going to have kids, you have to take more responsibility of your life. You have to save more money, you have to look after your health, it gives you a will to live. Now, to remove that from you is that is a slow and steady self sabotage. When you don't have any children for the rest of your life and you think you're never

• 59:20Speaker 01

  going to have them, essentially you could be a car wreck and no one's going to watch you. Whereas when you have children. It's an automatic therapy. You have to fix your traumas. You have to fix your self sabotaging behaviours. So you're depriving yourself of reaching your full potential when you completely write that off, I believe. But I could be wrong with that.

• 59:38Chris Williamson?

  I you were preaching to the choir, I think, that it's really great. All of my friends that have become fathers, they've stepped up in a way that I I'm impressed by. Like, they were they were hitters before and they're even bigger hitters now.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:51Chris Williamson?

  Which is why it surprises me that there is this generalised anti-children, anti-family creation culture.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  It's really good. Like, sometimes, you know, and they even do it with men that are in like, you know, in trouble with the law and stuff. Sometimes, when they have children, it's the only way to get them off the streets, because it's the only thing that gives them that motivation that they can't find outside of it. But so if you are feeling that, maybe it's you need to have a kid.

• 1:00:14Chris Williamson?

  Have a kid. Well, I I understand what you mean as well, that there is this kind of mass individualism. Um, I think that some of the most common reasons as to why people aren't getting into relationships at the moment, uh, working on myself right now, just don't feel ready.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Chris Williamson?

  Uh, sort of biding my time, so to speak.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Super childish, though.

• 1:00:33Chris Williamson?

  It's just, uh, it's a focus on the individual. Um, and it's very isolationist, it's very atomized. It's all about the individual on their own. And I don't get me wrong, you know, if you spend your time, maybe you're working from home post-COVID, um, maybe your job doesn't actually require you to interact with that many other people, or maybe you're all doing it all through Slack and through Zoom. You don't need to really leave the house that much anymore. You can DoorDash your food, you can Amazon Prime, whatever it is that you need, you can stay on the couch and watch Netflix.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:08Chris Williamson?

  We've become more isolated, and I think that that trend almost causes us to justify more isolationism. Uh, and it also, it's called Extended Adolescence or Slow Life Strategy that Jean Twenge found. And this is Just never really getting to the stage of growing up, you know, young people are getting their driver's licenses later. They're starting work later, they're moving out of the house later. Like, the most common living arrangement for men under the age of thirty is still being at home with their parents.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and this is one of the things I, you know, I get a lot of slack on for online because I talk a lot about age gaps. And sometimes young women, you know, they go for older men and they'll say, yeah, but he's forty, I know I'm only twenty-two, but at least he'll be more responsible and he will settle down. Responsibility, well, maturity is not defined by age, it's defined by how much responsibility you have. And I always say if he's got to forty, no kids, no marriage under his belt, he's chosen that Peter Pan lifestyle. No twenty-three-year-old is going to come along and make him up, he's chosen to be that man. Are you sure you want to be with him? You're better off with a thirty-year-old that's got more responsibility than a forty-five-year-old who hasn't. Because if you think a number defines maturity, you're lost. The reality is, is the amount of responsibility, particularly responsibility and care for others.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  So if he's supporting family, if he's supporting an ex-wife, or he was married or he had kids, it does something to men. It kind of, it creates a level of responsibility and accountability that they can't get without that. So I do always tell women, don't be afraid of being with a man that's had kids or a man that's, you know, been married. They're better than the ones that have had no baggage because baggage is responsibility, which is then accountability for a man.

• 1:02:43Chris Williamson?

  Do you think the same is true in reverse?

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  No, unfortunately, it doesn't work the same way with women, not always. It can sometimes, but it doesn't always work the same way because women, when they have children, and good women, with healthy women, actually prioritize the children first and foremost. And if she does, one of the priorities is becoming then super cautious of the man that she allows to enter into the man's world. And if she's a really good mother, she tends to keep a good co-parenting relationship with the ex. And a lot of men don't feel comfortable with that. But the true good woman, like the single mom that you should be looking for, is the one that's got a good relationship with her ex-husband. What men do is they prefer the woman that has no contact with the ex and the kids have never seen the ex. And they think, oh, I'll go for that girl, at least the baby father is not around.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  That's a signal that she deprives or prevents children from connecting with their father, that's not a good thing. That's not a green flag, that's actually a red flag. So what men are doing is sometimes they're selecting women and thinking, she's got children, but she, she doesn't let the kids see their dad and they're not in his life and he was a bum. But what does that tell you about her selection process and what does that tell you about her ability to co-parent? It's an insight into what would happen if you two broke up. You won't exist for those children. That's not a healthy mother. A healthy mother is he cheated on me, he was awful, he was a wreck. But the kids need their father. I drop him every Friday. That's the healthy mother. But men don't interpret single motherhood the way they should.

• 1:04:06Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Do you have any idea how fatherlessness impacts boys and girls' behaviour and what they what they look for when they grow up and start dating?

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  Um, with women, they definitely, here's the problem women have when they grow up without a father figure and they really feel it. Is they'll always date a lot older men. So they'll be seventeen, eighteen years old and they're looking at the thirty year old and the thirty five year old and they're getting older and older and there's a huge gap between them. Now, my experience of working with women that go for these age gap relationships is they are in survival mode without a father. They need that safety and comfort. And the conversations that we normally find really boring coming from our father about mortgage rates and like, you know, saving your money. They sexualise those conversations. So when they hear it from an older man, they're like, oh, he's so responsive. It's they're not used to it. So they end up initially going for the older man and falling in love. But once they feel safe and they've got the money and they've got the safety, they then look for men around their own age.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  They end up, it's like, it's almost like having a safe, secure base. Once you've got an older father figure in your life, then you go on to see what you're sexually attracted to. But until you've got that secure base, you're in survival mode. You're looking for who can make you feel safe, not who can make you feel like who you're attracted to. So they're confused, they blur the lines between attraction and safety. And they end up looking for it in an older man, but then cheating on him with a younger man.

• 1:05:24Chris Williamson?

  Do you think that they over prioritise socio-economic status in that regard?

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Rightly so. I understand why, because they don't have a backup plan. When you grow up with your father, you know, at some point he'll help you when things get rough or he'll leave something for you and stuff and it naturally creates a level of safety. They don't have that safety and usually if they come from a single mom home. She's also encouraging her to look for a rich man because it benefits her as well. Yeah, there's usually some kind of like support network. Okay, you can come live with us and so on and so forth. So they come from a culture of, you know, you don't have to love a man. All men are annoying and they're difficult. So just choose one that's going to give you a good life. So they end up focusing on socioeconomic status, but they also end up with men with low self-esteem. Because a man with high self-esteem at forty years old would recognize he's got nothing in common with a twenty-two-year-old who makes TikToks all day. He wouldn't have any intellectual intimacy.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  So she ends up with an older man with low self-esteem. Who, when she does cheat on him, will still take her back and so on and so forth, who pays every bill or whatever it is. So again, she ends up with a man that she doesn't respect in the long run. But really admires initially because he provides her with that safety she's been craving.

• 1:06:32Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you you told me about this book you'd been reading to do with parental alienation. What's that?

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Well, the thing is, I was looking into parental alienation only because I see it so much going on. But one of the things punishments women use for a man that she feels has let her down is depriving him of access to the children. Now, the problem I see happening is with the children of such mothers, especially the men of such mothers. They go on to have very, very abusive relationships. So men who grow up with single moms who blocked access, they end up with women who are very abusive. Either they're unfaithful or they financially abuse them. Or they're just, they're physically abusive. They grow up with very, they end up selecting very abusive women. And from my observation and from what I'm reading, it looks like what happens is when you've been deprived of a father

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  and you've only heard mom's side of the story, what happens is they put their mom on a pedestal. They think moms, women, are the innocent victims of harsh men. So what will happen is they pray to women that need saving. They always gravitate towards women that they can save and help and nurture and say, oh, yeah, that man was terrible. I've got you. I'm going to help you. I'm going to show you what life looks like because I've been doing that to mom my whole life. The problem with those women is they are broken beyond you. You can't fix them. Most women can't be saved. They they have something broken that they need to fix themselves. But the man that thinks he can save. Of her is the one that's a little bit more delusional and he gets his self esteem from seeing her now love him.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  So unfortunately, he ends up going for very broken women that end up re abusing him. And he he ends up not having those boundaries that he needs with women. So they end up in very poor relationships when they've been raised by a mother that's blocks access to fathers.

• 1:08:16Chris Williamson?

  You often hear about the reverse about women who look for the guy that's broken, but I can fix him and I can hold on. Why do you think that happens?

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  We we hear it a lot with women. It happens in men as well. We hear it a lot in women because it's a huge ego boost, knowing that a man used to be a player, but for you he changed, or he used to be in and out of jail, but for you he changed. Here's the reality, you're competing with people's childhood, not other women. If I've got a man that's really broken and he sleeps around and he's doing drugs or whatever it is. And I think I'm going to fix him and I'm going to be the special person. I'm competing with his childhood traumas. You can't compete with somebody's childhood. Essentially, you're always going to lose. Now, whatever caused that addictive behavior or that abusive behavior still exists before you. You are not the therapist and you are not the cause of the wound. So don't take on that role. You're only going to hurt yourself. The best thing you can do is support them while they heal it.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  But to attribute his healing to you as a person is a form of narcissism. You're wanting to feel good by his healing, not for the sake of him healing, but for you to get an ego boost to know that you could do it. And it's not the way to do it.

• 1:09:24Chris Williamson?

  I was looking at a bunch of headlines that had come out recently to do with reality TV dating shows. What do you think are the lessons that young people are taking about love? Given how many reality TV shows are to do with coupling up and breaking up and making up.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  It's about winning. Yeah, it's all about competition. Essentially, what we've done is taken love and turned it into a game show. Now, there's no way that won't have a trickle down effect on society. What we're learning is to cheat on them before they can cheat on you. Get to cuss them more and couple up before they can do it themselves. So essentially, we're going into relationships, we're treating our partners as opponents. And who can win? And the prize of this kind of competition is who can be the loneliest fastest. Who can create the loneliest lonely relationship faster? Who can get single faster? So if I cheat on you first, or if I don't text back first, or if I don't, I win. But what are you winning? What's the trophy of these games? The trophy is a lifetime of loneliness. So essentially, we've made the prize depress.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Depression is the prize of depriving yourself of love, unfortunately.

• 1:10:32Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  I mean, you've got experience in that. Did you find that it became a competition? Are you in there?

• 1:10:36Chris Williamson?

  So I was pretty bored for most of my, of all of my experience on Love Island. I was also going through an existential crisis because I was faced with a bunch of people that I thought I was.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:47Chris Williamson?

  Right, I was adamant that I was this big name on campus party boy. And then I go on Love Island and I'm faced with people who are the role that I was pretending to be.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:56Chris Williamson?

  And I'd just read Paulo Coelho's The Alchemist as well. It was like the first book I'd read in probably a decade. Um, so I was kind of in this weird out. I had this weird out of body experience for a good chunk of that time where all of these things were going on. And there were storylines or whatever. And all I was thinking about was this guy, if anyone's not read The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, there's this

• 1:11:20Chris Williamson?

  young shepherd boy going on a journey of self-discovery, trying to find out who he is. And that really, really spoke to me at the time. And I was in the south coast of Mallorca, which is Spain. And it was in the middle of summer and I was, I read this book during the media lockdown week and then went in in this total fucking fever dream.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:37Chris Williamson?

  Um, so my experience of Love Island, I don't think is perfectly representative.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:41Chris Williamson?

  Some of the things that I did realise were that it teaches young people that love is a game to be played.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:50Chris Williamson?

  That loyalty is both super important and also unbelievably disposable at the same time. Like, think about when Love Island comes on TV in the UK. I'm team such and such.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:06Chris Williamson?

  Right, like Cardia or whatever, like, like Sris, like, you know, like whatever.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  They put this together.

• 1:12:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, they, they try and do that thing. I'm team this. And then as soon as one person decides they're going to move on. Typically, if it's a guy, he's being totally unfair. If it's a girl, maybe that dude was a bummer. If he was cute or like sweet, then that was her fault and she shouldn't have done it. It's so, it encourages people to make very quick decisions, to fall very hard, very fast, to have loyalty, but only kind of have loyalty to someone who's likeable. Like a lot of people, unlikable people deserve relationships too. You know what I mean? Like, everybody needs somebody. Yeah, it's, it really does.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  It's like a popularity contest even in there?

• 1:12:53Chris Williamson?

  Absolutely. Yeah, of course, of course, because you know, the status.

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  Do you get real emotions, like real jealousy and real anger?

• 1:12:59Chris Williamson?

  I didn't have a single romantic emotion during Love Island, but I had a lot of bromance. No romance, but a lot of bromance right while I was in there. I cried when I left because I was missing my boys. Like, I didn't want to leave my boys behind and I had this really intense emotional experience. I'd, you know, spent a lot of time, I'd really connected with guys while I was there. But I, the girls were perfectly pleasant, but I wasn't bothered about leaving them behind.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Did that affect your self-esteem in any way? That you wasn't connecting with the girls or not really? Did you just find validation?

• 1:13:29Chris Williamson?

  Particularly, I just wasn't, I really was not attracted to any of them.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  Okay, so then it doesn't feel.

• 1:13:32Chris Williamson?

  It was, we kept on saying, when the girls were coming in, everybody had a type, right? And I, I don't think that they'd read necessarily all of the guys' sheets. And you can see that in the fact that there isn't a single relationship from that season.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  Wow, not one?

• 1:13:47Chris Williamson?

  No, no.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Even the winners?

• 1:13:49Chris Williamson?

  Even the winners. The winners last, last time than anybody else.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:13:53Chris Williamson?

  So, Married at First Sight, have you seen this story?

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  I know, I'm familiar with it.

• 1:13:58Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so for the people that don't know, the transgender bride set to take Married at First Sight UK by storm, transitioned aged 21 at an NHS hospital before spending £50,000 on cosmetic surgery to be taken seriously as a woman. Mail Online can reveal today. Channel 4 viewers will see Ella Morgan, 29, who was born Evan Morgan. Wed a male contestant amid a row over whether the groom was told first or not. Ms Morgan is shown in the trailer for Married at First Sight, telling her new husband her big secret after they married, having admitted her transition has made her fear rejection after being treated as a dirty secret in the past. However, Channel 4 has now revealed that they did tell the man in advance he would be marrying a trans woman. It is understood

• 1:14:40Chris Williamson?

  that the man is furious with how the broadcaster treated him during the show and afterward. But the beauty and fashion consultant from Bristol says she is determined to be the star of the show to shed light on the struggles and realities of being trans, adding, "We're not freaks or mentally ill. I'm still just like any other girl."

• 1:14:59Chris Williamson?

  Going to be difficult for you to comment on this one, Sadia.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  It is going to be difficult. I'm trying to see how I can behave and not offend. But here's the reality of it. If I was, even if I was born a woman or whatever, and I had millions of cosmetic procedures, and I have a higher risk of depression because of the, you know, the lifestyle I've chosen, a man has every right to know that. And has every right to say, "It's not for me. It's not for me." I wouldn't be with somebody who was born a woman because it's just not for me. I'm a heterosexual woman and I'm entitled to identify as that. Now, what I find, the thing is, if it's really painful to be transgender, and it's a lot of suffering, I don't think it's good for TV to kind of capitalize on that for views and use that as somebody suffering as a form of views.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  But I also say that it does, it does make you different from other women. If you're saying the trans struggle, it was really hard for you in your childhood and you found it really depressing, that makes you different to the woman that grew up in the body she identifies with. So to say that you're on par with the typical woman is not true because you've gone through a different type of trauma that we haven't. So essentially, you're never going to be like a woman, not even just physically, but also psychologically. You're never going to be like a woman. And it's okay to never be like a woman. It's okay. The thing that I find difficult to understand about the whole trans debate is, one, for many decades, we were told gender is a social construct. It's just this imaginary thing that we're telling people.

• 1:16:23Chris Williamson?

  We've only been told that for about one decade.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. We've been told it's a social construct. Everybody's saying. Saying it's a social construct, the liberals are saying it's a social construct. But then if you say that you identify as the opposite gender, they give you biological treatment. Now, if it's a social construct, essentially you're only identifying as a social construct. You don't need to change your biology. It doesn't make any sense. It's like saying that your football team who you support is a social construct. I don't need to change my biology to be a Man United supporter because essentially it's a social construct. So if gender is a social construct, why do we need to transition?

• 1:16:55Chris Williamson?

  I think the the argument on the other side of the fence would be I want my outer appearance to reflect my inner experience.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Then why not change your inner experience rather than your outer?

• 1:17:06Chris Williamson?

  Don't know whether they have control of that.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  But that's no different to like, for example, an anorexic will genuinely believe that they are the fattest person in the world. They identify as fat. Now, the reality is I'm not going to give them a liposuction so that their brain and their body are aligned. I have to look at the psychological defect that caused them to be unaligned and focus on the psychology first. And if that doesn't work, then we can look at biological procedures. But the reality is I don't see how when it comes to anorexic, I get that there's, you know, self is not healthy or whatever it is. But at the same time, we know the suicide rates in transgender is not healthy either. We're doing them a disservice by simply giving them a shortcut to biological procedures while skipping psychological interventions.

• 1:17:47Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, there's I had a Hannah Barnes on the show. She did a big investigation into GIDS, the gender identity something service that was at the Tavistock Clinic in the UK. That's recently been shut down and then kind of restarted again. And then the restart kind of, I think, had some controversy as well. And there is an unbelievably high percentage of autism and OCD and other sort of co psychopathology type things

• 1:18:17Chris Williamson?

  in the trans community. And there is this big question that she asked, which was, are people mentally disturbed because they're trans? Or are they trans because they're mentally disturbed?

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:28Chris Williamson?

  And there is a question to be asked that if untreated autism or OCD or something like that, if that ended up getting treated, whether the gender dysphoria downstream from that would dissipate. And that's a, I think that that would encounter. In some of the real like hardline trans communities, I think that would encounter some challenges because they would say that almost by getting rid of the autism, you're denying the personhood of the trans person.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:55Chris Williamson?

  Because it delegitimizes the gender dysphoria and almost makes it like how the light bulbs in here give off light but also heat. It's like, oh, the gender dysphoria was a side effect of autism. And we don't know, we don't know the direction of causality here, but it's one of the most heavily contested, highly hot topics.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  Would you be ostracized as like a man that chooses not to be with a transgender woman in America?

• 1:19:22Chris Williamson?

  Depends what you're talking about. I mean, this discussion of are you allowed to have your own preferences is fascinating, right? You know, if you prefer blondes, is that somehow prejudiced against brunettes and gingers?

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:39Chris Williamson?

  If you prefer tall girls, is that somehow prejudiced against petite girls? Like the line between, the question of are you, are you being either transphobic or homophobic by not dating somebody who is biologically the same sex as you but has transitioned? It seems like a slippery slope from there to just, well, why shouldn't you date somebody that self IDs as that? You know, I don't need to do the external comparison. Do you know Blair White? You're familiar with her?

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:07Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, so Blair's a good friend. She looks more like a girl than a lot of girls do, right? But I don't know if she was to get into a relationship with somebody and not open up about, well, she hasn't had bottom surgery, so it's a surprise that's waiting to visit you at some point.

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:25Chris Williamson?

  It's a fascinating discussion. I do think that the not dating transitioned people.

• 1:20:34Chris Williamson?

  Is transphobic argument has kind of been and gone. Anybody that genuinely looks at that and says, yeah, you should date how we tell you to date. Is it's again, like, does that mean that I have to date everybody?

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:48Chris Williamson?

  But why do I not have to be attracted to my video guy? Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm supposed to have, I'm allowed to have preferences.

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:55Chris Williamson?

  And, yeah, it becomes kind of a self-defeating.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  Do you, did you ever hear about the study with Dr. Money and the twins? So there was two twins that went to hospital to get circumcised, but they accidentally burnt the penis off one. So what the doctors decided to do is raise the child, they were both boys, but raise the child that had his penis burnt off as a woman, as a girl. So for the first seven years of life, they just put her in dresses, made her believe that she was a girl. Everything was like, you're just a girl. But as the girl hit puberty, she felt more and more like a boy. And she, I was remembering being suicidal, saying, I want to be a boy. I feel like a boy. I want to play with like the balls and I want to play sports. And so eventually they told him the truth and he went back to being a boy because he just, the self-discovery of your hormones. But eventually he ended up committing suicide because of the trauma.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  So the whole idea of playing with people's gender, especially when they do pre-puberty, because that study showed that as soon as puberty hit in, completely a boy again. So if you try and block, like, the hormones before puberty, you're blocking them, their self-discovery that might occur after hormones. So it's quite a dangerous thing to do.

• 1:22:02Chris Williamson?

  It's dangerous shit.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:04Chris Williamson?

  Talking about dangerous things, do you think that hot girls are more crazy?

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  Always. Do you think hot girls are more crazy in your experience as well?

• 1:22:11Chris Williamson?

  I've been around quite a few hot girls, but some of them can be very balanced. But I, give me your treatise on hot girls being crazy.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Here's what it is with a very attractive women. They don't get an insight into the average man and how average men behave. They get an insight into men that are incredibly intimidated by their beauty or incredibly lustful of their beauty. So they see men either kind of ignore them. So the quiet, good guys either just kind of intimidated by them. But the loud, gregarious, kind of adulterous men are after them. So they'll see guys that will leave. Their wives to be with you. They'll see guys that will uh drop everything to kind of, you know, even if their girlfriend's in the same room, they'll quickly stick you their number. They'll see guys that will risk their jobs, you know, if they're your boss to be with you. So they see men as these huge risk takers that will do anything to have sex with you.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  So what ends up happening is she loses her naivety about a man. She no longer thinks men are faithful. She's seen so many men break up whatever they have just to be with you and just to access you. She's seen so many men who break their back just to touch you. So what happens is when her husband now says to her, oh, I'm just, there's a new colleague at work. Her brain is like, well, every colleague at my work has always hit on me. Are you hitting on this girl? Or if if her husband says, I'm just going to the gym, she's like, well, whenever I go to the gym, somebody hits on me. What are you doing? So they end up being suspicious because they are privy to men at their worst when they're sexually attracted to a woman. They don't have that naivety that a more plain woman would have, where she could walk past a guy in a bikini and he doesn't harass her.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  She knows if she walks past a guy in a bikini, he drops everything. So she sees men as more dangerous than they are, and therefore she thinks her partner is more sexual than he might be. And as a result, she tends to be more intense and crazy and less naive, but not necessarily more accusatory, I would say.

• 1:23:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, because she uses her experience about the world to predict what everybody else's experience is about the world.

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  And in her defense, beautiful women also, it takes a certain level of confidence and a certain level of no fear of rejection to access a beautiful girl. So her pool of men tend to be the men that are more likely to be unfaithful.

• 1:24:13Chris Williamson?

  Wow, that's interesting. So very attractive women are a selection effect for the kinds of experiences that they have in life, the kinds of interactions that they have with other women and other men. So presumably they'll often see other women as threats.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  Well, they, well, they've experienced other women seeing them as threats and they've seen the competitive nature of women and they've seen women, because here's the thing with beautiful women. If you walk into a room with a really beautiful woman, all the other beautiful women will now start looking at you thinking, well, there must be something about, I'm sure they look at you anyway, but they would look, pay more attention. Because there must be something about Chris because she's unbelievable. So what ends up happening is beautiful women start to see how disrespectful other women can be. They're looking at your man, they're they're they're competing with you because to get a beautiful woman's man makes the other women feel more attractive. If you walk in with an absolutely twelve out of ten and then you give me attention, I now think I'm prettier than her. So therefore I want your attention more than the guy that's with the girl that's not that attractive. So we see this competitive nature of women.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  We see that we can put men, uh uh women can put men on the map. And they see that men are very soft and they give into beauty quite quickly and easily. So they lead to a trust issue that is harder to kind of overcome.

• 1:25:26Chris Williamson?

  So interesting.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, the psychology of an attractive woman is one that is very different to a psychology of a less attractive woman. They're two different species.

• 1:25:34Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, so you have women seeing other women primarily as enemies. They're often going to be frosty to them.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:42Chris Williamson?

  Uh they're also kind of hyper aware of the power that they can bestow on the partner that they're with. Which probably makes them a little bit tentative about giving that man that power because if they pre-select that particular type of man.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  You're putting him on the map.

• 1:25:55Chris Williamson?

  Yep, and then you also said that these women being super attractive selects for a very specific type of guy. That is sufficiently confident to go up and speak to you. Or men will make ridiculous and wild U-turns in their life in an attempt to get to you.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:14Chris Williamson?

  Which also gives you a pretty unrepresentative experience of what most men are like.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then when the looks start to fade, it's a harder transition for them. When the looks start to fade from a woman who is quite plain, she sees it as life. When the looks start to fade with an attractive woman, she sees it as disastrous because a lot of the power has gone. So they might, not always, but they they might respond to it with a lot more insecurity, especially after children. But if she has good values, she recognizes that the the looks are replaced with family connection. But if she doesn't have good values and her identity is built on her appearance, you'll see that she'll go to more and more extents to kind of um prove her attractiveness and that might lead to promiscuity. So her identity can't be designed and around her looks, it will make her very fragile.

• 1:27:04Chris Williamson?

  It's rough.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:05Chris Williamson?

  Being an attractive woman must be hard, like genuinely, it must be very difficult to try and go through the world. Because with men typically. Their value to the world doesn't wax and wane in quite the same way.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:19Chris Williamson?

  You know, it starts off low, even super attractive guys will remain being attractive for a very long time.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  Forever, like.

• 1:27:26Chris Williamson?

  And you just have this sort of slow and steady increase presumably, and then it'll dip out and then it'll start to even off towards.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  And when it dips, you don't care if it dips. By that time, you're so settled in life, you don't care. But for women, it can dip a lot earlier. And there's a lot of talk about pretty privileged and pretty privileged this and pretty privileged that, but there's lots of disadvantages. And the main thing is people look for your flaws a lot more. What happens when you're not attractive is people can accept what you're saying and doing and they don't really delve into it. But when you're attractive, there's an element of other women or even men saying, well, I bet she's dumb. Well, I bet she's a hoe, or I bet they're looking for the negative so much more. And then all they'll say, I bet she's really arrogant and very vain. So you almost have to work against people's negative assumptions of your character. As much as they make positive assumptions of your appearance, they make lots of negative assumptions about your character.

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  So you're in a bit of a battle and then it's not as easy as it might look to other people.

• 1:28:21Chris Williamson?

  I saw, well, I was a model for a decade and a half in the UK. And I saw a lot of the girls almost counter signal, they would turn up in the most slouchy clothes that they could. You know, they would purposefully wear their hair up, they would purposefully wear glasses, they wouldn't wear revealing clothes. They would try and act in ways that were more bookish sometimes as well. And this could just be their personality, it could have been the girls I was around. But I also think there might be something going on here that they're trying to counter signal. I am more than just what I'm currently being paid for as a part of my career. I'm more than just a pretty face, I'm more than just a lingerie model, I'm more than just someone that's supposed to smile and giggle and look nice on camera.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  And is it hard for men to realise that they're more than that? Or is it hard for them to like, do they, can they compartmentalise and think that she's got more to it?

• 1:29:13Chris Williamson?

  Good question.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Or do they, do they get overwhelmingly like attached to her appearance?

• 1:29:18Chris Williamson?

  So there's a big difference between beauty and hotness. And most models, at least the ones that I was working with, it wasn't sort of glamour stuff or underwear stuff that much. It was like fashion stuff, it was like cutesy editorial girl next door type thing. So it was probably optimising more for beauty than it was for hotness.

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:29:35Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. And but certainly when it comes to hotness, it's a. Fucking reality distortion field for men, right? And this is what we said, this is the word that was coming to my mind as you were talking about this, that the reality of a very, very hot woman is like a sphere that follows around her, just distorting all of her experiences with women, with men, at restaurants, getting into nightclubs, with careers, everything.

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, the super hot sexy woman gets it probably the worst because they activate a man's short-term mating strategies. They have long-term mating strategies with who they want to family with and short-term who they just want to mate with. And they activate that in men. So a really sexy girl will activate a man's short-term mating strategies. And she'll also activate threats in women. Now, women's usual threats when they're threatened with a woman is to go, well, suggest that she's promiscuous. So they might say to the man, oh yeah, but she's really promiscuous, not realising that actually makes her more attractive to them. Because they're like, well, I'm only looking for a short-term promiscuous.

• 1:30:34Chris Williamson?

  Are you trying to sell her to me?

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So they think that they're actually undermining her by saying she's so promiscuous and she's a slut and she's this, that and the other. But the man, when his short-term mating strategies are activated, that's exactly what he's looking for. So she ends up with men who just want short-term mating strategies. And as a result, she starts to see men as disposable. And therefore, it can be really negative for the hot woman.

• 1:30:56Chris Williamson?

  It does make sense about why it would be hard to have a normal mindset. I'm aware that it's easy.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  It's like the Pamela Anderson effect.

• 1:31:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's easy to throw shade, like, are hot girls crazy? Like, it's easy to just throw shade at them. But this is why I like these kinds of conversations, because it really helps everybody to understand the experienced psychology, you know, the lived experience of somebody that's on that side of the fence. And you can say, ah, pretty privileged, the halo effect, you know, she's getting in for free at nightclubs and blah, blah, blah. It's like, yeah, but what if she's got zero female friends? What if she can't find a female friend that doesn't see her as an enemy, an adversary or a competitor? What if every single guy that she spends time with is terrified to speak to her? Or it's just, it's so interesting. So on the other side of the fence, do you think it's more difficult for successful or desirable men to settle down?

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  It's only difficult when they grew up without, when they've gotten low self-esteem. For men, their success in with relationships is very much determined by their self-esteem. Women can get a shortcut with their appearance and so on and so forth. For men, their self-esteem is either going to propel them into a great relationship or prevent them from any kind of stability. Now, if he grew up without any validation and not knowing if he was attractive, what happens is his self-esteem is almost blocked at that stage of life and then he can still be a sucker to women and still kind of accept the unacceptable, simply because he wants to be desired. But if he has good self-esteem and good boundaries, he will never suffer in relationships. He just won't because he knows when he's welcome, he knows when he's not accepted

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  and when the relationship's not working and he has a willingness to walk away. So the thing is, money with low self-esteem is really, really difficult. It's a very lonely path. It's a lot of gold diggers, it's a lot of escorts, it's a lot of partying, even at an old age. Now, money with high self-esteem and good values is, you know, it's still difficult, but you can create something out of that.

• 1:32:56Chris Williamson?

  What about successful women?

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  They struggle, they really struggle because essentially with successful women, here's the thing, men always say, oh, when women earn more, they leave men, but they don't realise why. There's actually studies to show that when men are with women that earn more than them, they produce more cortisol, they're actually more angry and stressed around her and that obviously has a negative impact on their testosterone, so they're actually less sexually attracted to her and so they're meaner to him. They're mean and also they don't treat her the same way. If a man is dating a woman who knows is unemployed, say if he's on twenty thousand pounds a year, he'll still use whatever he has to treat her well, like, you know, look after. But if he's on twenty thousand pounds a year and she's on fifty thousand, he'll use nothing to invest in her. Now, women don't need your money, but they do need your investment because that's how men fall in love. The more they invest in something, the more they attach to it.

• 1:33:42Speaker 01

  If they invest a lot of money in a car, they really care about it. Lost a lot of money into a bitcoin, they wanna see it go up. Invest money into a woman, they wanna see it work out. So when they are with a woman that earns more, they invest so little, so walking away seems so easy for them and it seems so hard for her because she's been the one that's investing in them. So it's very difficult. It's not just the woman who's rich and now she leaves you. The man no longer adds any value. That is the main issue. He doesn't use whatever tiny resources he has on the woman like he normally would.

• 1:34:11Chris Williamson?

  How can people better deal with jealousy then in relationships?

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  It's very difficult when it's activated because it comes from some childhood trauma and stuff. So when it's activated, that loneliness and that rejection is activated as it may have been as a child. And it's like the world is over when somebody's jealous. But I think in my experience of working and even my own experience of jealousy, the only thing that helps remove jealousy is really building an identity outside of the relationship. If jealous people tend to place their entire self-worth and identity on the happiness of their partner and how attractive their partner is to them and what their partner is doing. Now, the reason why that's so fragile is because your partner is a fallible person. It's gonna have times where they look at somebody else, they might be attracted, whatever happens. Their entire identity is crushed.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  So to remove that jealousy, you really have to create an identity outside of the relationship, which gives you the confidence that if this relationship is great, I'm gonna be in it. If it doesn't work for me, it's okay, I can go somewhere else. But that fear of letting go and fear of that they're gonna find somebody else, it means that they're in a constant competition with their partner and they're almost terrified that their partner's gonna meet somebody else. But really, when you build your own identity, you realize if they do meet somebody else, they're no longer the person you loved anyway. So it's okay, you almost have a zen attitude towards it, but it's very difficult. Do you ever suffer with jealousy?

• 1:35:32Chris Williamson?

  Uh, not massively, but that's been improved by having more things occur in life that have, yeah, like given me a more stable foundation. One of the challenges, I suppose, is that if you get jealous, you have two very difficult choices. One is tell your partner, that can go badly, that can be perceived in the wrong way or even if it's perceived in the right way, it can change the way that you are perceived. And the other one is to just swallow it yourself and deal with it on your own, which then begins to create a trend in a relationship of keeping things from your partner.

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  But it doesn't actually stay in your side. You think you're swallowing it, but you're then manifesting it in the form of checking when they're online, checking who they're following, checking, checking, and then bursting at small things, not the real issue. So when your partner turns up late or doesn't reply to your texts, then you over-exaggerate your response because that jealousy has been kept inside. So it doesn't go anywhere when you keep it in. It stays inside you, your body keeps score of it, as they say. So the reality is by expressing it and with the right person, they'll try and help you soothe that jealousy with some reassurance. With the wrong person, they'll make you feel stupid and pathetic. Maybe you are being stupid and pathetic and they can't handle it, but they'll make you feel that way. And then the jealousy then exaggerates and increases. So it's a good test of your compatibility if you do explain it to your partner.

• 1:36:52Chris Williamson?

  One of the things I've been thinking about is is almost like historical jealousy. And this is where the body count conversation comes in. What have you come to believe about how much body count matters? And then how can people deal with historical jealousy better?

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  Well, the thing is, it's now become a big topic of debate and men are like, oh, body count, body count, body count. It's a big deal. Here's what I really say about body count. The testament of your body count is more your rejection rate than how many people you slept with. Now, if you are, let's take somebody like you, for example, who's got a big name on social media, looks great, access to loads of women through the nightclub. Now, if your body count is, let's say if it's 10, but you've had hundreds of girls throwing themselves at you, yours is actually still low. Whereas if another guy who has no access to women, his but finally gets one or two girls to sleep with him. On paper, it might be less, but his rejection rate is so low. And now, instead of looking at how much many people people sleep with, is they look at their rejection rate.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  Now, if a girl has slept with five men or 10 men, but only five or 10 men have tried to approach her. That means every man that tries gets access. But if she's a really attractive woman, she might have higher, but her rejection rate is higher. So really look at how many people you your partner is rejecting rather than just their body count. Because on paper, a really unattractive man who has nothing going for him, his body count's going to be low. Doesn't mean he's a decent man. It's just that he didn't have the opportunity. Similarly, women that are not that nice to be around, not that kind, not that pretty, not that attractive, hers is going to be low. Doesn't mean she's virtuous. It's just that she didn't have access. It's the ones that have access but choose to be selective. That's what you should be looking at is their selectivity.

• 1:38:32Chris Williamson?

  Problem is, you can't ask them the number, like, how many rejections have you done in your life?

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  Yes, you can't. That's the hard part. But what you can tell is how easily excited this person is by the opposite gender. It comes quite naturally. You can tell when people are super excited when the opposite gender pays them attention and other people are totally immune to it. That person that has a glee attached to attention is always going to maybe not have a higher body count because they're, you know, might not get access. But they've got more risk of um diversion because they they get too much ego boost from the opposite sex and not from other areas of their life. So I think body count really has to depend on the the person's ability to say no to sex. It's not just how many people they slept with, but how many people can they say no to?

• 1:39:15Chris Williamson?

  I've never heard this framed before. I think it's very interesting.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. What do you think about that? Do you, what do you think?

• 1:39:20Chris Williamson?

  The body count, the body count conversation is is so skewed. Because the world that we're living in now is not representative of where it would have been ten years ago or twenty years ago. But the the thing that I'm most interested in is historical jealousy, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So hearing stories about what your partner used to get up to, even if it happened once.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:41Chris Williamson?

  Right? And it it's so strange. You didn't even know that they existed. You didn't know them. They didn't know you. They couldn't have said no because they were waiting for you to come. Maybe this was a one-time thing or whatever, and it triggers, especially in men, it triggers such a visceral fear.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:58Chris Williamson?

  Right? Of inade- inadequacy of um like jealousy, but it's strange, like, how can you be jealous about a thing that happened before you even knew who your partner was?

• 1:40:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:08Chris Williamson?

  So, yeah, talk me through your conception of historical jealousy.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  What happens with historical jealousy is human beings in general, we prefer pain we can predict. Predictable pain is almost more welcome than uh well, definitely more welcome than anything unexpected. Now, where what we do with retroactive jealousy is we hold on to the past as a way of predicting how they're going to hurt us in the future. The more anxious you are, the more you perceive threats in your environment. So what's happened with people who are jealous of the past is essentially they believe, they have a core belief that their partner's going to hurt them at some stage anyway. Now, if there's no present-day evidence for that, they will look for it in the past and use that as a way of creating hypotheses of how they might hurt you in the future and therefore be mentally prepared prepared for the sabotage.

• 1:40:51Speaker 01

  Now, so essentially what they're doing is preparing themselves for the worst, but they can't find evidence, so they look for the past and it's usually because of a fear of abandonment that they have within themselves. And I know it's more common in men because their fear is more stimulated by the fear of cocodrhy, that she might, like evolutionary wise, she might have a child with somebody else and pretend it's yours, that fear. So it's ingrained in them. But more time that fear is activated when there's been some childhood abandonment.

• 1:41:20Chris Williamson?

  What about women? What are women worried about?

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  We're worried, we worry not as much about retro. We only really worry about previous exes if there is some financial or emotional investment still going on, usually when there's kids. So what happens is women tend to get jealous of the ex-wife, where they've got kids and stuff like that. We get jealous of exes that are still a priority in their resources. So we're only threatened by women that have access to their resources, whether that's energy, time or money. But if he's not giving them that, we are more worried about future threats.

• 1:41:54Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting. I imagine that must make a lot of the moving on, starting a new relationship as a guy that has got some history. You know, earlier on, you mentioned if you're going to go for somebody that's a little bit older, it may be even in some regards a green flag, that they've been through some relationships and got some baggage, you know, from that. But you also have the

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  Jealousy.

• 1:42:17Chris Williamson?

  inclusion of the previous partner and potentially the previous kid, resources, attention, so on and so forth. So that must be a difficult situation to navigate.

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  A lot of women suffer from that. They're really, really so jealous of the ex and the children and so on and so forth. And it is very difficult. I can imagine it would be horrible. But one thing that, again, if your husband has a good co-parenting relationship and is a good father, it's a foresight into how good of a partner he will be to you and your children. He prioritizes his children is really, really important. Now, a lot of women want a man to prioritize them over their children. But what kind of man is that? A man that prioritizes a woman over his children? What kind of man is that? It's not a man you're going to be attracted to in the future, especially when you have children with him, because that means the next woman in his life can take that priority. You need a man that prioritizes his children. And try and see it as something you admire in him, rather than jealous of

• 1:43:09Speaker 01

  him, because it's a trait that's going to come in very handy when you have children with him, God willing. But that guy that is just all over the place and doesn't prioritize his kids, it's only handy in the short term.

• 1:43:18Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. There was a post on Instagram that I saw literally on the car on the way here. When you find out that she's unvaxxed, not a feminist, loves the Lord and aspires to be a wife, mother and homemaker. And it's Joe Rogan in the video going, oh, like it's a comedy thing. And the caption was, do such unicorns still exist? In the comments, people were dating. So girls were replying and saying, you know, you should come to church on a Sunday. We still exist out there, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:49Chris Williamson?

  But what I'm fascinated by is what is going on where unvaxxed, not a feminist, loves the Lord, aspires to be a wife, mother and homemaker is like a counterculture, finding a bar of gold hidden in the sands, like treasure.

• 1:44:08Speaker 01

  It is because we're so distracted by the women that aren't. The reality is that we're so bombarded with images of the women who are the opposite, who are the feminists, who are out there, who are not really of the Lord and don't really aspire to that. We see they're the loudest. So we see them on social media. They might be the ones that sexualize themselves a lot more. They might be the ones that put themselves out there. So what men are gravitating towards visually is going to be that filter of that kind of woman, the opposite. And the ones that are, that they're ignoring visually tend to have those qualities. So here's the thing in life, everything comes at a compromise. Now, if you want somebody that will stimulate you the most sexually, she's not going to be a virgin. She's not going to be on church on Wednesdays.

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  She's just not going to be that girl. She might be somebody who's a little bit more conventional. If you want somebody who is going to be those, you might have to compromise. Now, what's happening is because we've become so shallow and we value so many junk values, such as so many superficial things, like, look, when she's not beautiful, you don't even pay attention to her. So she's not the most stunning girl. It doesn't matter what qualities she has. She becomes invisible. A bit like with men, if they're not tall, a lot of women will ignore their existence, even if they've got all the other great traits. Similarly, if she's not absolutely sexy, is what men are now attracted to. They're looking for sexy more than ever before because it's normalized. It's Instagram, it's pornography. If she's not sexy, they don't even notice that woman.

• 1:45:33Speaker 01

  So that's why they think women like this are unicorns, but they are there. You just don't notice them because they don't have their boobs on your for you page.

• 1:45:41Chris Williamson?

  Why do you think infidelity occurs most commonly in your experience?

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  Um, I I would honestly say if you ever get cheated on, I always, I know people hate me for this, but it's usually your fault. And the reason I say that particularly with men, a cheating woman shows you every red flag from day one. If you choose to ignore red flags, you'll pay the price. In life, you pay prices. There's price tax. Now, everybody shows you that the cheaters show you they're going to be a cheat. And how they show it is very simple, their values. They'll, maybe they'll show you that they've done it in the past. Maybe they show you that they are not so traditional. Maybe they show you that they are, don't believe in monogamy, maybe they're addicted to pornography. Cheaters show you their, their past. They show you everything. Now, if you don't want to get cheated on, you either choose that cheater, but know what, know what the score is,

• 1:46:29Speaker 01

  and then you don't get hurt, or you know what's going to happen. But ignoring red flags is always going to get, land you in that position. Now, whenever I have clients that have been cheated on a lot for five, six years, a man's got another mistress, or three years, she's been still been talking to her ex, I was like, there's no way she can get to three years without your, you consenting. And they're like, what do you mean by that? I was like, they would have been late replies, there would have been days their phones are off, there would have been not telling you where they're going. They tell you everything. Their social media would have suggested something. You would have been questioning them sometimes, and they would have got defensive rather than reassuring you. There would have been signs you chose to ignore them. The price you pay for that unfortunately is infidelity. So you either accept an unface one, know what you're there

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  doing, and then just decide, okay, I can accept it, but I'd rather be with you than not without you. But you, but denying the red flags is always, it's going to catch up on you. The infidelity is going to occur. So that's why people get cheated on, why people choose to do it, is because they can get the comfort of a relationship with the joy and pleasure of a, an, an alternative connection. So they get two in one. So they might get the comfort of somebody who pays their bills, but the sex life of a young personal trainer that she wants. And he might get the comfort of a good wife, but then the sexual experience of a escort when he goes and does that. So they, they, we've become so greedy. We don't realise that some things have to involve a sacrifice. A healthy marriage has to involve sacrificing the alternatives. We don't see the need to

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  sacrifice alternatives, because now we are so gluttonous, even if we eat a lot, we can still do that and get surgery. Even if we spend a lot, we can still get credit cards. We no longer see the sacrifice of alternatives is required in order for positive outcomes.

• 1:48:09Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, there's a cool quote that says, uh, there are no, there are no options, only trade offs. Right, that for everything that you want, there is something else that you need to give up. And I think that's a good way to look at relationships.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you want a good, healthy marriage, unfortunately, you might have to sacrifice the most exciting sexual experience every day of your life. Because that's what twenty years of marriage doesn't look like, you know, it's realistic. And if you want like a single life, then you have to accept that your emotional, like you might suffer from anxiety and depression in the long run. So you've got to realise, whatever decision you make, it comes with a lot of pain and suffering. Pick your pain. Being married, the pain might involve being bored, it might not being sexually stimulated. But being single, the pain might involve a lot of loneliness, depression and sadness. Just pick which pain you can handle and confine yourself to that decision and ward off all the alternatives.

• 1:49:02Chris Williamson?

  What do you think about getting back together after infidelity?

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  Um, get back together, absolutely. You, I don't, if there's children, I don't say, no way, no way, no way. If there's no children, I always tell people to reconsider. Um, but one thing I would say is different for men and women. When a man forgives a female cheat, she can't respect you the same way. You've got to remember, we like alpha men. Alpha men don't accept promiscuity. So what happens when you accept a woman back, a part of her will always feel like you're weak. And you don't have the willingness to walk away because there's nothing that can push a man to walk away more than infidelity. And if that didn't do it, nothing will. So now she's lawless. For a man, again, I don't massively recommend it unless there's children. But I would focus more on what was the meaning behind the affair, what were they seeking?

• 1:49:49Speaker 01

  And if it's something that you can do in your marriage, by all means do it. But if it's something that's more traumatic, it's more to do with an emptiness and a trauma in their childhood. And you can't fill that void, then you still can get back with them, but expect the behaviour to continue. When I, when people get back together after a fair, I just say, but ask yourself, if he stayed exactly the same and still cheated five years down the line, could you be okay with it? And if you decide, you know what, I can, as long as you're good to me and good to the kids, I can do it, by all means do it, but don't go back together expecting it to be completely different. It's not, it's not realistic.

• 1:50:24Chris Williamson?

  Interesting to think that one of the considerations that you're focusing on to do with infidelity is not whether the person can accept that themselves, it's whether the other person can accept being accepted, especially for women.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  Yes, it, it, so essentially, can you accept worst case scenario? If worst case scenario happens again, can you accept it? If the answer is no, then you're just delaying the divorce, just do it now. If the answer is yeah, because the alternative, I just don't want to do it, then go ahead. But always ask yourself, can I accept worst case scenario? Then if that happens, at least you're prepared for it. If it doesn't happen, at least your marriage stands a shot.

• 1:51:02Chris Williamson?

  It's a brutal realization, I guess, for guys that maybe their partner may have had infidelity and then they can try and do the work to be able to accept them again. But that is creating a rhythm, a vibe that may make it difficult for the partner that cheated on them to accept them back again.

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, something dies in us when you accept the unacceptable because your masculinity is depleted. And the other thing is the man loses his masculinity. He starts to hate himself for not being able to walk away. Instead of having a pride of attached to like, okay, I've kept my family together. They know they shouldn't do it. There's something speaks to them. So they end up hating themselves. And because they can't always express that, they can get quite hostile and violent towards a woman and can get quite verbally abusive towards her. And I'm not saying she's like an angel, but the verbal abuse and it's, all you're doing is, like I said, you're just essentially punishing her for your inability to walk away. She's going to beg and say, please forgive me, please forgive me.

• 1:52:08Speaker 01

  But the reality is, um, we don't want the man that forgives us. We really don't. We want the man that says, you had your chance. It's been a pleasure. I wish you the best because that's the man we respect.

• 1:52:22Chris Williamson?

  Why do married women cheat?

• 1:52:25Speaker 01

  Um, a lot of married women, a couple of reasons, they didn't marry the person they truly wanted to marry. They, the biological clock hit them and they married who was available at the time. And they might have had an ex that they idolized, they might have had something else, so they didn't marry correctly. They didn't choose the person that they wanted to marry, they chose the person who wanted to marry them. And so they settled to begin with, they started wrong. And that can happen. On the alternative side, it could be is when she hasn't felt desired for a really long time. And she puts the feeling of needing to feel desired and sexy and attractive as a number one like emotion. So she'll put that over and above her family and she craves that. So if she's naturally born like quite attention seeking.

• 1:53:09Speaker 01

  Or if she married who, who wanted to marry her rather than who she truly wanted to marry, unfortunately, she's more prone to cheating. Yeah. And, and you, and also if she grew up with a bit of chaos. Uh, I find that women that come from single parent homes are far more likely to cheat. And the reason I, I've noticed that, and the, the only hypothesis I can think of is that usually when somebody isn't fulfilling our needs, we can go back to a safe haven of two. We were designed to have two parents that love us. We've got mum and dad, two people love us, that's how it should be. Now, when those two people, one of them is absent, you always feel like there's a void. So when you're in a relationship and all of it is on him, if he stops giving you that love, you almost seek it as a backup because you don't want that emptiness that you may have experienced as a child. So they almost have a backup before they can leave the guy.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  They can't just leave and be by themselves because that really feels lonely. They'd rather leave when they've got somebody else. It's like having that extra parent in your life. You, you, like when you have mum, that noisy, you've always got dad, you've got a backup. But when you didn't grow up with that, that being by yourself is really horrible and lonesome. So they always, if one person's let them down, they always try and keep a backup in case that person removes their love from them.

• 1:54:14Chris Williamson?

  It's a safety hatch.

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  Safety hatch, yeah.

• 1:54:17Chris Williamson?

  What about men? Why do men cheat?

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  Um, men usually cheat when they're chasing an ego boost. They're not usually in love with the person that they're cheating with, but they are in love with the feeling that person gives them. And sometimes the person makes them feel seen, sometimes the person makes them feel like they're fed. Sometimes the person makes them feel attractive, whatever it is heard. Um. They're chasing a particular feeling that they're deprived of either from their marriage or from their childhood. And as a result, they seek it. It's not sexual. People think it's just, oh, they're men love sex, men love sex. There's some men out there, if they really love sex, they would just have sex with their wives. They haven't had sex with their wives in a long time. But they crave novelty or they crave somebody else making them feel a certain way. So I don't think it's all sexual. I think it's far more psychological and emotional than they think it is. And they label it as sex, but really it's the new person is get making them feel seen.

• 1:55:04Speaker 01

  And maybe they felt unseen for a really long time at home.

• 1:55:07Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. And I suppose that a lot of single people or escorts are purposefully portraying a version of themselves that makes that person feel seen.

• 1:55:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, the escorts know exactly what they're doing. Same with sugar babies. They know that with this man who's been married for so long, they target married men because they have a, in my experience of what is watching them, what they do is they have a leverage because every time he doesn't pay her, he can say, I'm going to tell your wife. So they really do target married men because they've got that leverage, but also the the low self-esteem in married men is so easy to manipulate them. Giving them a phone call to tell them that they look great, tell them that they smell great, telling them there's coffee ready. They haven't heard these phrases in a really long time and that works perfectly with married men. But it doesn't work so much with a man who's been on the single scene for so long and has four or five different girls coming over every month or whatever it is.

• 1:55:59Chris Williamson?

  Cause everybody's fawning over him in the same way.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you don't stand out to that guy.

• 1:56:04Chris Williamson?

  How much do you think you can change your partner? You know, we've spoken a lot today about how things that have maybe happened in their past, the way that they see relationships, the frame that they place around this, maybe it's things from childhood. Maybe it's the way that their past relationship or their past partner treated or mistreated them.

• 1:56:21Chris Williamson?

  What have you come to believe about how much you can shift and change who your partner is?

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  I think you can provide them with some level of safety and that level of safety can make them a better version of themselves. But what we really have to ask yourself is why are you selecting people you have to change? The reality is you have to select people and accept them rather than expect them to change. And if you can be with somebody that you expect, if they stayed exactly the same forever would work. By all means, go ahead. But if you feel like you have to change them, you have to then change your expectations. Instead of changing them, just manage your expectations. Expect them to behave this way. And if they change, brilliant. If they don't change, no worries. But expecting to change somebody is setting yourself up for failure. Because you're by default entering a relationship that you know requires work, rather than just creating consistency.

• 1:57:10Chris Williamson?

  I looked at this thing earlier on, talking about, I guess, the challenges that guys have of finding female connection, especially the incel sort of black pill part of the world. DreamGF.ai. So I read this, I read this article earlier on. It's fascinating. Apparently, ads for AI girlfriends have been all over TikTok, Instagram and Facebook lately. Replica, an AI chatbot originally offering mental health help and emotional support, now runs ads for spicy selfies and hot role play. Eva AI invites users to create their dream companion, while Dream Girlfriend promises a girl that exceeds your wildest desires. The app Intimate even offers hyper realistic voice calls with your virtual partner. This may seem niche and weird, but it's a fast growing market. All kinds of startups are

• 1:57:54Chris Williamson?

  releasing romantic chatbots available of having explicit conversations and sending sexual photos. Meanwhile, Replica alone has been downloaded more than 20 million times, and just one Snapchat influencer, Karen Marjorie, makes a hundred thousand dollars a week by charging users one dollar a minute to chat with the AI version of herself. But it isn't just unrealistic beauty standards that worry me. What's more sinister is the unrealistic emotional standards set by these apps. Eva AI, for example, not only lets you choose the perfect face and body, but customize the perfect personality, offering options like hot, funny, bold, shy, modest, considerate, and smart, strict, rational. Create a girlfriend who is judgment free, who lets you hang out with your buddies without drama, who laughs

• 1:58:37Chris Williamson?

  at all of your jokes. Control it all the way you want, promises Eva AI. Design a girl who is always on your side, says Replica. How can we compete with that? This article is written by a woman. Already, women in relationships complain about porn addicted partners who aren't satisfied with actual intimacy. Now, we're facing a future where guys could get addicted to emotional validation elsewhere, sneaking away. For some of that unparalleled devotion. Worse, what about young boys who grow up with this, whose first sexual experience is chatting with AI women who never say no, never argue, never have original thoughts or an identity of their own, and then they try to date a real girl? There's already all of these men on Reddit raving about how their AI girlfriends never argue, complain or get bored of them, while real girls continually disappoint.

• 1:59:19Chris Williamson?

  If AI girlfriends really do become as pervasive as online porn, what will this mean for girls and young women who feel that they need to compete with this?

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  I would imagine it's no different to the mindset of a rapist. Essentially, what you're doing is dehumanizing the connection of sex. It's you're removing the human component and replacing it with a complacency. Now, the mindset behind that is very similar to a rapist. Essentially, you don't care about the emotions of the person, or even if they have emotions, or the trauma or anything like that. You don't need human connection. You just need your fix. Now, when we normalize stuff like this, and even pornography has done this, we've normalized men to the idea of dehumanizing women for the sake of sexual pleasure. And so much so that we are now creating non-humans to have sexual pleasure with. We are creating a society of rapists. That's essentially what we're doing.

• 2:00:11Speaker 01

  We're normalizing rape and legalizing it, but the mindset of not having human connection in order to get sexual gratification is exactly the same. So I think it's just the new version of porn. I think when we first heard about pornography, maybe all the years ago when it started, people would have thought, oh, my God, that's a crazy thing in the planet. No way is that going to take off. But it's now at the tip of our hands on the phone every single day. I think this unfortunately is the sad future for human relationships because there's so many people looking for instant gratification that they would rather go down the dehumanizing than long-term gratification of creating connection.

• 2:00:49Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I wonder as well. It was interesting what that lady said about how.

• 2:00:56Chris Williamson?

  It's an almost an unrealistic expectation to compete with them on an emotional level. Some of those things of laughing at their jokes and being on their side and not arguing. That doesn't seem like an unrealistic standard to me. Being online twenty four seven and being able to design your sort of dream girl in terms of the way that she looks. There is a little bit of me that thinks.

• 2:01:21Speaker 01

  Is that unrealistic?

• 2:01:22Chris Williamson?

  Well, yeah, is it unrealistic to laugh at his jokes? Or to be intimate with him or to give him compliments and praise?

• 2:01:28Speaker 01

  I think that is definitely there, like you should expect that from your partner. Your partner should be the person, the source of your compliments and praise. But the reality is, women are hormonal, that we have a monthly cycle. We're not consistent emotionally. And as a result, there are times where we worship you and there's other times where we don't want to be around you. Unfortunately, that's how nature designed us. I'm not saying blaming it all on that, but that's the reality of human nature and that's the reality of women. Now, I get it's nicer to have that consistency, but it's again, but nicer and easier isn't better for our mental health. We're designed to struggle. We're designed to be like hunting, gathering to get a girl. That's what you're designed to go brave, like go bravery and hunt, gather, get a lion, bring it back or whatever animal. And then a woman will sleep with you.

• 2:02:13Speaker 01

  Now, if we're now creating a society of men where all they have to do is download an app to get that woman. You're removing masculinity and bravery and the ability to regulate another person's emotions and understand her kind of behaviors. You're removing that from men. So you're removing their ability to be their full potential and their ability to be masculine, because that's not how we're designed.

• 2:02:37Chris Williamson?

  It definitely creates a kind of self fulfilling cycle where guys who have had bad experiences with women in one form or another, rejection, or they've got into relationships and they've ended up being on the receiving end of something that's been really bad. Will retreat and it seems like they're now going to be able to be serviced. You know, this is, it would surprise me if OnlyFans still exists as a business within the space of five years, because really. Yeah, well, what, how this would maybe very much be able to take up, take over if it can become high enough quality.

• 2:03:11Chris Williamson?

  So I understand the dynamic, you know, this is a safer version for you in terms of not being betrayed emotionally, et cetera, et cetera. But it does create precisely the lack of eligibility that you already fear in yourself, right? I want to be an eligible partner for a woman because I haven't got that. I may turn to this as an alternative. It would be very, very surprising to me if a man said, I outright from first principles want the AI girlfriend. It's usually I would have maybe tried to get the one in the real world, haven't got it, therefore I retreat into this. So that retreat creates the lack of eligibility. But on the other side of this, and the reason that, you know, women, as quite rightly, this lady, it's a really well written article.

• 2:03:54Chris Williamson?

  This lady that wrote the article makes a great point that this is going to create the dearth of eligible partners that women are already fearful of, right? So what do you think? Let's say that you do have, it's going to happen, it's happening right now. There is going to be some men, right? A non insignificant minority, at the very least, who do retreat into this upgraded version of porn.

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:18Chris Williamson?

  What do you think the female response will be to this? Because that's going to further skew the market of eligible male partners.

• 2:04:25Speaker 01

  What men are hoping for is that then they'll step up and they'll say, I'm going to be that girl that laughs and does that. But the reality is what men, women mainly will do is step down and think, forget men. Because I can't be bothered to do this because, you know, the addiction to pornography has made a lot of women think, oh God, I don't want to sleep with men anymore. They just want porn and they do this wild stuff and blah, blah. So it is going to have a counterproductive impact on women. You're thinking that they're going to step up, but the reality is when we feel like the mountain is too high, we don't bother climbing it. So what women will actually do is retreat into, there's no point being with a man. I might as well just stay single. All my friends are staying single. I might as well be bisexual, might be lesbian, whatever it is. They're not going to step up if that's what you're thinking. This is what they're going to do.

• 2:05:10Speaker 01

  They're going to think, step up for who? Guys that like artificial intelligence? That's not motivating me to want to step up. That's making me think men are disgusting. And so they're less likely to become the woman you want them to be. So we're creating a society of incel men, but jaded women.

• 2:05:26Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, this sort of adversarial nature between the sexes is not good.

• 2:05:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:31Chris Williamson?

  People are retreating into a more comfortable but less fulfilling, less risky, uh, less content version of life. But it's this move away from anything that has to do with risk is kind of the trend I'm seeing. You know, maybe this is downstream from hyperconvenience. Maybe this is downstream from a quasi surveillance state where all of your information is tracked and held on the internet. Maybe this is to do with snowplow parenting and helicopter parenting. Maybe this, you know, pick whatever it is that's caused this to occur. And it's likely to be a ton of different things congealing together.

• 2:06:12Chris Williamson?

  But I don't think that it makes for ultimately a satisfying, gratifying life. Even if you have a life which is devoid of failure and pain and challenge, that doesn't mean that it's one that's full of pleasure and happiness and contentment.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And comfort is actually the killer of joy. What they find with people who have depression, it's not that they are got the worst circumstances. Sometimes they're just too comfortable. If you take children in Africa that have to go walk to get water, they have no time to be depressed because their life is so uncomfortable that they have a purpose and they get through it. And then they get the dopamine of getting what they need. Too much comfort kills joy because if I can wake up late every single day, I forget the joy of a lion. If I can eat whatever I want, all the junk food in the world, I forget what cheat meal tastes like. So comfort is not actually going to create any long-term happiness. Happiness comes from discomfort, then problem solving that discomfort and then getting the dopamine reward. Unfortunately, so it's a bit of a longer process.

• 2:07:11Chris Williamson?

  Sadia Khan, ladies and gentlemen, where should people go? They want to keep up to date with what you're doing.

• 2:07:15Speaker 01

  At Sadia Psychology and just go on TikTok. I'm everywhere there, unfortunately, I really apologize, but I seem to be everywhere on TikTok at Sadia Psychology.

• 2:07:22Chris Williamson?

  What else are you doing? What can people expect from you next?

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  I still have my Patreon where I release exclusive videos that are just for those people that are looking to learn and improve. I also offer one-to-one conversations and one-to-one coaching. I also reply to people on my Patreons that have quick questions. So I am very accessible and available at the moment. So I do apologize for being so saturated because I feel like I'm getting a bit sick of my own face, but I am available if you should need me for any services.

• 2:07:46Chris Williamson?

  Sadia, I appreciate you. Thank you.

• 2:07:47Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.