Pod Insights The Tucker Carlson Show Origins of Christian Zionism, How It Corrupted American Christianity and Why It’s Finally Collapsing About this episode Theologian JD Hall on the corrupting lie of Christian Zionism.
J. D. Hall is a Christian commentator, author of the best-selling book Hyphenated Heresy, and a leading voice on issues of faith, culture, and free speech. Known for his unapologetic defense of biblical orthodoxy and criticism of institutional corruption within the church, Hall built a large following through his work with Pulpit & Pen and Protestia. He now writes daily at Insight to Incite and NXR, where he covers religion, politics, and current events from a distinctly Christian perspective.
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Transcript 14,960 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:04 Tucker Carlson? JD Hall, thank you for joining us. I think you're one of the clearest writers on the internet, so it's an honor to have you here. I've been trying to figure out for several years, you write on theology on Substack and other places, and very clearly, I just want to say, clarity being the goal of expository writing, you achieve that. A few do. I've been trying for the last several years to figure out what Christian Zionism is, not because I have an inherent interest, but because it's affected the shape of the world, and a lot of people have died because of it, and it has real-world consequences that we're living through right now. What is Christian Zionism? Where does it come from? Is it Christian? What's your assessment?
0:45 Speaker 01 Well, if you listen to people online, every Christian is a Zionist, just naturally, right? So the proponents of it will tell you that it is the de facto position on Israel, and it always has been for Christians, to believe in the establishment and support and protection of a Jewish ethno-state in Palestine. Christian Zionism...
1:13 Tucker Carlson? Doesn't it say in the Bible that those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who don't will be cursed?
1:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you've had probably about a thousand different people tell you that. That's something that we hear every single day as Christians.
1:28 Tucker Carlson? I couldn't find it. I got my Concordance out, I couldn't find it.
1:30 Speaker 01 Well, I remember the interview with Huckabee, and he couldn't find it either, which is weird when you cite it all the time. Or actually, that was Ted Cruz, that couldn't remember where it was. I'm not sure that Ted even knew if it was in the front of the Bible, or in the back of the Bible.
1:45 Tucker Carlson? No idea.
1:46 Speaker 01 But yeah, so Genesis, Chapter 12, Verse 3, says, "I will bless those that bless thee and curse those that curse thee." And from that, and I'm simplifying it, but from that comes this more philosophical notion than theological, that we as Christians have a duty-bound obligation to protect and to defend, and also to help establish a nation for the Jewish people in Palestine. And it hasn't always been Palestine, you know, so when...
2:21 Speaker 01 Political Zionism first developed, they had posited Morocco and Galveston, Texas, Ohio, Siberia, different places.
2:31 Tucker Carlson? Galveston, Texas?
2:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, there was a substantial number of Jews there and they thought this could be sort of the safe space for Judaism worldwide, which made sense because the United States has always been a pretty hospitable place for Jews. But anyways, so far as it concerns Christian Zionism, that is tied to a theology called dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is a theology invented by John Nelson Darby.
3:02 Tucker Carlson? What does the word mean, dispensationalism?
3:05 Speaker 01 Well, the term refers to different dispensations of time by which God operates differently and deals or interacts with man differently depending upon what dispensation of time it's in.
3:20 Tucker Carlson? Huh.
3:21 Speaker 01 So dispensationalism is juxtaposed against covenant theology, and those are your two basic viewpoints of Christians throughout the history of Christianity. And for the most part, there's only those two perspectives. You can get lost into the weeds really easily.
3:41 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
3:42 Speaker 01 So John Nelson Darby, he belonged to a bizarre Irish sect. It was sectarian. They had basically schismed their way outside of the established church. They had several different theological hangups. One is that they rejected all forms of church authority. They were what I would call sectarian minimalists, so they reject the organized church. They rejected the established church. And part of the reason is because their beliefs were so eccentric and weird, they would have been excommunicated had they remained in the established church.
4:22 Speaker 01 So after moving from Ireland to Plymouth, England, the notion of dispensationalism grew. And essentially, the difference between dispensationalism and covenant theology is that God in covenant theology is interacting with man in accordance to the old or the new covenant. And so the bulk of the church from the first days of the apostles through the church fathers, through the Protestant Reformation, whether we're talking Catholics or Eastern Orthodox
5:05 Speaker 01 or Protestant reformers, all of them are what you'd call covenantal in their theology.
5:11 Tucker Carlson? So you said, and I'm sorry to be pedantic, I was trying to understand this because I really think it matters and you understand it better than anyone I've ever talked to.
5:21 Tucker Carlson? The premise is that God's promises change according to the time, according to the dispensation, the era, the epoch.
5:30 Speaker 01 So dispensationalism can be complicated. Classical dispensationalism separates the epochs of time into seven different eras. It can definitely be complicated. There's something that's called leaky dispensationalism, which is a little bit less structured. But essentially, the big difference is this covenant theologians have always believed that God saves people via covenant. And there was an old covenant, that's what testament means, by the way, not testimony, it's, it's the old covenant. And then there is the new covenant that has been established. And that Jesus came and inaugurated a new covenant.
6:13 Speaker 01 And he did that at Passover, right before he was crucified, the last supper, which was the last Passover supper, the last authentic Passover supper was also the first Lord's supper. It's the first communion or Eucharist.
6:30 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
6:31 Speaker 01 And Jesus says, this is my new covenant, or this is the new covenant in my blood that's poured out for many. And so in the new covenant, Jesus Christ is the means by which God's people are saved.
6:47 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
6:47 Speaker 01 Okay. In the old covenant, the Covenant people of God were Israel.
6:55 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
6:55 Speaker 01 And God being very gracious, gave Israel rights and rituals for them to see as an explanation, a word picture of who their Messiah would be, so that when their Messiah came, they would say, obviously, that's what this is about.
7:14 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
7:14 Speaker 01 Passover is a good example.
7:15 Tucker Carlson? They'd recognize the Messiah.
7:16 Speaker 01 They would recognize the Messiah. In fact, it would be hard for them not to recognize that Jesus was the Messiah. He's crucified at Passover. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. I mean, all the imagery is right there for the Jewish people to see.
7:38 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
7:39 Speaker 01 That this is the moment that we've been waiting for. Jesus installs the new covenant in his blood, and by that, by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, we are redeemed by faith in that, and then we become God's chosen people. And so, a covenant theologian is going to tell someone that quotes Genesis, chapter 12, verse 3, "I will bless those that bless thee and curse those that curse thee." A Christian, a covenant theologian, is going to quote to you Galatians, chapter 3, which is a book of the New Testament, in which the Apostle Paul is writing to the church
8:22 Speaker 01 in Galatia, and he tells them that if you have faith in Jesus, you are God's children. You're actually, he says, "You are the children of Abraham." It says it twice. So by faith, we're adopted into God's covenant people. And then, at the very end of Galatians, chapter 3, not only does it tell us that we are the children of Abraham, those who believe, but also, we are the heirs of the promises. And so, in fact, in Galatians, chapter 3, verse 7, the Apostle Paul very clearly explains that that promise is not for the Jews.
9:07 Speaker 01 It never was for the Jews. The picture was, or rather, the mission of God was much bigger than that.
9:15 Tucker Carlson? And that's clear in the Old Testament, isn't it?
9:17 Speaker 01 Right, it's Old Testament, and God is preaching through the rites and rituals of the Old Testament, the gospel, before Jesus came. Yes. All right, so that they could understand concepts like grace, and judgment, and forgiveness, and repentance, because it was never about the sacrifice of bulls and goats. It's not as though that bloodshed ever took away sin. It gave them a picture of the bloodshed that Jesus Christ would one day give for us, so that they could believe in what we call types and shadows,
10:00 Speaker 01 putting their faith in the rituals that would one day be lived out in reality through the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. And the greatest, you know, the great mystery of the gospel, Paul calls it, is that Jesus was not just a Jewish Messiah. He was a global Messiah. He was everyone's Messiah. And that by faith, we become the children of Abraham. And by faith, we receive Abraham's promises. I was gonna say a second ago, the very first part of Galatians, chapter 3, he says, you know, when the promise is given to Abraham and to Abraham's seed,
10:44 Speaker 01 Paul says, it doesn't say seeds, plural. It says seed, singular. The promise is not given to the Jews. The promise is a reference to Abraham's seed. That's Jesus Christ, because Jesus was of the lineage of Abraham. So the promise is not bless the Jews and God will bless you. The promise is bless Christ and God will bless you.
11:11 Speaker 01 Furthermore, not only is that promise just for Christ, but by the end of the chapter in Galatians 3, the Apostle Paul says, "You are the heirs of the promise," meaning that promise is extended to us. And so, the irony is, you have these so-called Christian Zionists who believe that we have to bless Jews in order for God to bless us, and they're actually giving away their own inheritance. That's our promise. I'm a child of Abraham. If you're a Christian, you're a child of Abraham. We receive the heir, or rather, we receive the promises of Abraham because we inherit them by the virtue of adoption in Jesus Christ.
11:55 Speaker 01 That's what Christians have historically believed. And there are other supporting texts. You know, you've got Romans, Chapter 9, where the Apostle Paul says that Jews who do not believe in Jesus are not children of Abraham. You've got Romans, Chapter 11, that paints the picture of the Tree of Faith, in which unbelieving Jews are branches on this tree that have been cut off and severed from both Abraham and God, and in their place are grafted in believing Gentiles. And so, we, you know, are brought into the family of Abraham
12:39 Speaker 01 and in covenant with God by virtue of faith. And so, when someone like Mike Huckabee, or Ted Cruz, or any other politician or preacher, preaches a message that, you know, if you want God to bless you, you need to do X, Y, or Z for the Jews. They're handing away or handing out Christian promises. Those are for us. We have those in Jesus. We are the children of Abraham.
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15:19 Tucker Carlson? It doesn't make inherent sense.
15:23 Tucker Carlson? The theology that you're describing dispensationalism. And also before I ask you about how it's spread and why, is it true, or product of my bad memory, that there are glimpses in the Old Testament that God plans to redeem the entire world? That it's not, that God's mission on earth is not just to protect this one group of people, but everybody?
15:45 Speaker 01 Right. So what dispensationalists will do is they will look at verses in the Bible about the end times. We call that eschatology.
15:54 Tucker Carlson? Yep.
15:54 Speaker 01 They'll look at these eschatological texts about what God will do with ethnic Jews, the children of Abraham physically, and they'll say, see, you know, the Jews are special to God in a way that other ethnicities are, you know, are not. And it's unfortunate because three different times in the New Testament, the scripture says, "God is not a respecter of persons," and each and every time, it's a reference to the Jewish people. But they have in their head, Jews are special. They look at a verse about what God is going to do one day in the eschaton or in the end days for Jews, and walk away from that, saying, "Therefore, we need to support the nation-state of Israel."
16:38 Speaker 01 This must be a part of that grand plan that God has designed for the Jewish people. But Isaiah, chapter 19, just to give you an example, tells us that the Egyptians and the Assyrians will be redeemed by God in the end days and be brought to Zion, to Jerusalem, or to the promised land. It calls Egypt God's special people and says of Assyria that they are the work of His hands. These are two nations that are adversarial to the ancient Israelites.
17:13 Tucker Carlson? Well, enslave them in one case.
17:14 Speaker 01 Right. And the Assyrians, you know, are constantly warfaring with them. These are bitter enemies, and yet the prophet Isaiah says that they will become special to God. He will call them His own and draw them to Zion.
17:29 Tucker Carlson? That's in the Torah?
17:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's in the Torah. It's in Isaiah, Chapter 19, but that's not the only place. There are literally dozens of different scriptures throughout the text that tells us that every nation group in the end is going to be drawn to God through Jesus Christ. As a matter of fact, it's in the Abrahamic promise in Genesis, Chapter 12, verse four of that promise, right after it says, "I'll bless those that bless thee and curse those that curse thee." It says, "Every family of the earth will be blessed through Abraham." And so the Jews will tell you that it's because, you know, Israel is such a grand, wonderful place that all of the different nations of the world
18:16 Speaker 01 are being blessed, you know, by, by Israel. Unfortunately, the dispensationalists will tell you that too. I say unfortunately because that's clearly a reference of Christ. Through Jesus Christ, God's saving love to sinners all around the world, every people group, every nation, every ethnos is going to be drawn to God in the end. That's our hope as Christians, that God wins, that salvation is secure ultimately for every nation under the sun, that God will bring unto Himself one chosen nation, one holy people for God's possession.
19:00 Speaker 01 And so, yes, we can see places in the Bible where God has future plans for Israel, but we can also look to those very same prophets in those very same books and see that God has great things in store for Persia, for Iran. God has great things in store, you know, for Greece and, and for every, every nation, including, by the way, the ancient Philistines who are... Modern day Palestinians, God has plans in store for everyone. That is the good news of the gospel, that Jesus shed his blood for sinners, and that by faith, we can all become the children of God. And by virtue of that, children of Abraham. When I was
19:45 Speaker 01 a kid in church, there was a song that we sang, "Father Abraham." And it says, "Father Abraham had many sons, many sons had Father Abraham. I am one of them, and so are you. So let's just praise the Lord." Probably raised Episcopalian, that one skipped.
20:01 Tucker Carlson? Yeah, not, not, but not in our hymnal.
20:04 Speaker 01 In low church evangelicalism, that song is probably sung in every, you know, Baptist and evangelical church. It's a song of covenant theology. By faith, Christians become the children of Abraham. And if, if a Jewish person does not believe in their own Messiah, they're not the children of Abraham. That's what Romans, chapter nine teaches, that not all who are of Abraham are really of Abraham.
20:33 Tucker Carlson? I mean, bigger picture, it feels like the story of Christianity is a universe, it's a universal promise to all people.
20:42 Speaker 01 Sure.
20:43 Tucker Carlson? And it's dispensationalism seems like it reduces Christianity back to its pre-Jesus state, state where, no, this is a promise just to one group, one genetic line.
20:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, I would say, at its heart, dispensationalism is a Jewish interpretive model. As a matter of fact, they will actually take that as a point of bragging, that we interpret the scripture the way the Jews interpret the scripture. Well, the Jews missed Jesus. Like, he came in the flesh. He, he was there. They saw him. As a matter of fact, they saw him dead, buried, and resurrected, and still didn't believe. So maybe that's not who we should be taking pointers from in terms of understanding biblical prophecy.
21:33 Tucker Carlson? What's Jesus's role in dispensationalist theology?
21:39 Speaker 01 Well, Jesus' role in dispensational theology is, so it depends to whom. So,
21:49 Speaker 01 John Nelson Darby, the inventor of dispensationalism, referred to the church, the Christian church, as a parenthesis. That God's main plan is Israel, but because they've been naughty and disobedient, the church comes in and we're a parenthesis. So, instead of being like the bride of Christ, the church is more like a summer fling, that this is where the rapture comes in, that eventually God will rapture us, take us out, we're gone completely, and then Israel can resume its role as the big picture. It's a very Jewish way of looking at the Scripture, where Jews and
22:33 Speaker 01 Judaism and Jewish people is always at the center of the Scripture, as opposed to Jesus being at the center of the Scripture. So, eschatologically, in terms of the end times, there are different ways that Christians have looked at it throughout history. There's all millennialism, and I'm not going to bother explaining these, but post-millennialism, premillennialism, historic premillennialism, that is. They all agree, though, that God only has one chosen people, and that's those who believe in Jesus, whether they're Jewish, whether they're Gentile, it doesn't matter, we're all the children
23:13 Speaker 01 of God if we believe. Dispensationalism is different from all of those different ways that Christians can view the end times, because dispensationalism is saying, well, really, God's main love is the Jewish people, and for a time, in a so-called church age, in this dispensation of time,
23:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, the church is here, but one day we're going to be sucked out of here. We're going to beam up to heaven and then Israel will come back and form the center of the show. And so from my perspective and the perspective of historic Christianity, it's not only an insult to the church to act like we're some kind of summer fleeing for Jesus and that, you know, it's really about Israel. It's also disrespectful to Christ because he didn't come to be like a tribal deity of some desert war cult in the Middle East. He came to be the Messiah and the Savior of the world.
24:24 Speaker 01 They emphasize Jesus's Jewish Messiah-ship all the time. Matter of fact, you'll hear Jews who deny that Jesus is the Son of God. I don't even mean messianic Jews, just Jews that, you know, believe the typical teaching in the Talmud about Jesus being punished in hell, all of that stuff. But they will, when speaking to Christians, point out, well, you know that your Messiah is Jewish. Jesus obviously was a physical descendant of Abraham. There's no argument there, but the term that Jesus used for himself more than 70 times was "Son of Man." Jesus did not emphasize his own Jewishness.
25:04 Speaker 01 Jesus came as a Savior of mankind, and so he called himself "Son of Man," which was a term from the prophet Isaiah. And so it not only reduces the big picture of Christianity to something that is much, much smaller. It reduces Jesus from a global Messiah to, well, he's a Jewish Messiah that they loan us for a while.
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27:49 Tucker Carlson? Jesus also goes out of his way in the Gospels to praise the faith of pagans. I mean, a Roman officer was the first person to recognize that Jesus was the Son of God at the death. The, you know, the Roman officer, whose slave he heals, he said, "I've not seen any faith like this in all of Israel." But he was out of his way to, well, to minister to the Samaritan woman, et cetera, et cetera. Like, he's always picking non, people from outside the tribe.
28:17 Speaker 01 Right. You know, it's interesting that people ask the question sometimes, like, "Who killed Jesus?" And it's a big debate online. Every couple of weeks, a new fight breaks out on X where dispensationalists and covenant theologians are fighting about who killed Jesus. And of course, it's, there's an obvious answer, right? Like, the Jews killed Jesus. We know that because at least eight times in Scripture, I mean, the Scripture explicitly says that. The first sermon ever preached was the Apostle Peter that started by saying, "Men of Israel." And a few lines later, he says, "This Jesus Christ whom ye crucified." So the Pharisees plotted to kill Jesus.
29:01 Speaker 01 If you remember in John, Chapter 4, Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead. They see it. They recognize that he's the Messiah. The Sanhedrin, which is the ruling council, comes together and they immediately plot to kill Jesus. Like, they knew.
29:18 Tucker Carlson? And Lazarus later.
29:19 Speaker 01 Well, it was, yeah, it was an ancient cover-up operation, basically.
29:25 Tucker Carlson? They're gonna kill the guy again.
29:27 Speaker 01 So, and Jesus looks to the Pharisees and he says, "You're plotting to kill me. This is what you're trying to do." So, the question would be, why does the Bible seem to blame Jews for the death of Jesus? Obviously, they're involved. But it was technically the Romans that, you know, nailed them to the cross. It was the Romans who, who killed him. And the answer is, and well, Jesus himself, by the way, I should say, while he's on the cross, says, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." And he's speaking of the Romans, not the Jews. He's talking about those who are actually
30:05 Speaker 01 doing that, the crucifixion. If you think about what transpired after, before the crucifixion was done, the centurion recognizes that Jesus is the Son of God. Pilate very clearly was remorseful by the time he was done handing Jesus over to be crucified. But within a few decades, you had mass conversions of the Roman people and all throughout the Roman Empire to Christianity. And by the third century, you had the full Christianization of Rome. That doesn't mean
30:47 Speaker 01 that every Roman on earth was therefore a Christian by the virtue of being born in a Christian empire. We all have to have faith, personal faith in Jesus Christ, death, burial, and resurrection. That's how we're justified before God. But you have the Roman people recognizing who Jesus is very quickly. The Jews who saw Jesus dead, buried, and resurrected, many of them followed after him, but many of them persisted to persecute him. And then, within a very short time, they're stoning Stephen to death. Stephen, as he's being crucified,
31:30 Speaker 01 points out to the Jews, "You've always killed God's prophets, and you've killed Christ." And so, the reason why I think the Scripture isn't throwing the Romans under the bus, so to speak, even though they obviously had a hand in Jesus's crucifixion, is because they saw ultimately who it was that they crucified, and then they repented and they believed. And the Jewish people, those who did not convert and follow Christ,
32:03 Speaker 01 Ended up having to make a new religion in 70 AD when the Romans destroyed the temple. Because all of those rites and rituals that we discussed, you know, that God had given the Jewish people for them to see and understand who Jesus was, the festival of booths, Passover, all of those various rituals and the different kinds of sacrifices all required a temple. And it required an altar, it required blood, it required a priesthood to make that sacrifice.
32:38 Speaker 01 Those no longer existed after 70 AD. And so, over the course of hundreds of years, you know, the sect of the Pharisees that grew into modern Judaism had to essentially invent a Judaism that is not what you see in the pages of the Old Testament. They renamed some feasts, right? Like, they still call it Passover, but it's not. It doesn't resemble the Passover of the Old Testament. It's a completely new disparate religion. And that's why you have a desire among Christians throughout the last 2,000 years praying for the salvation
33:18 Speaker 01 of the Jewish people. To be very clear, the Christian or covenantal theologian message is not that Jews are totally cut off from God and that they cannot be saved and that God hates them or anything like that. But it's that, congratulations, you're ethnically Jewish, that's great, God doesn't care. Like every other group of people on the face of the planet, you need to repent of your sins and believe the gospel. That's the Christian message. John Nelson Darby comes along and the message towards the Jewish people begins to change and begins to evolve. And suddenly it's, instead of you need to repent of your
33:58 Speaker 01 sins and believe the gospel, it's, you're special. You're special to God. God's going to bless you regardless of whether or not you have faith in Jesus, just because you're Jewish. And, you know, that's partiality. The scripture actually forbids that type of partiality. It's unfortunate that Christians believe that's historic Christianity because it isn't.
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36:45 Tucker Carlson? What was Darby's motive? Was it sincere?
36:50 Speaker 01 I do think that Darby was sincere. I've studied Darby a lot. I think he was sincerely wrong. Yes. But I believe that he was sincere. Who wasn't sincere were the advocates of dispensationalism that saw its political value in the century that followed. Because Darby remained ostracized for 100 years, or about 90 or so. So you've got Charles Spurgeon, for example, at the London Metropolitan Tabernacle in London couldn't stand Darby. And he called, you know,
37:30 Speaker 01 called the theology new, called it novel, and the typical theological belief, and it's a good one, is that that which is new is not true, that which is true is not new. So if it's new and novel, like God isn't coming up with new theology, right? If someone invents a new doctrine, it's automatically wrong. Yes. Because God's already established his church. It's like Jesus and the disciples would have told us about this. Yes. So it was rejected by almost everyone because it was so novel and so new.
38:07 Speaker 01 Then we have Schofield that hits the scene in 1907, and he's a bit of a scoundrel. Like, I don't want to bash a dead person, but he was not what you would call a shining example of what a Christian should be. You know, he abandoned his family, for example. He's basically. We know that he abandoned his family? Yeah, his wife and kids. Gee. Yeah. So he shows up in New York. From New York, he goes to the UK. He winds up at Oxford, which is the hotbed of political Zionism. They print and publish a Bible. We
38:50 Speaker 01 call it Schofield's Bible. It's not Schofield's Bible. It never was Schofield's Bible. He never owned the Bible. It's Oxford's Bible. He was the theologian, allegedly, whose notes in the margins of the Bible.
39:10 Speaker 01 propagated the theology of John Nelson Darby. And that took off like, you know, wildfire in the United States. And it's because in low church evangelicalism, most clergy at the time, even to this day, are not classically trained in seminary. Back then, you know, especially before the age of the internet and with the cost of publishing, the typical pastor in a Baptist or congregationalist congregation would own a Bible and that would be about it. They didn't go home to prepare their sermon with a collection of commentaries
39:51 Speaker 01 or a Bible concordance or a lexicon. All they had was a Bible, but if they could get their hands on the Schofield's edition, they would have all of the study notes that they could read and learn and educate themselves. And, you know, they were smart enough to know that the margins is not the same as inspired writ, but that became the de facto home education for a lot of clergy. Within a single generation, among low church evangelical Protestantism, dispensationalism became the majority view because it's a nice handy resource
40:35 Speaker 01 that you read right there in the, in the pages of the Bible. And a lot, a lot of uneducated Christians during the era were actually not smart enough or educated enough, I should say, to discern the difference between the inspired writ that was given by God, the Holy Spirit, written through the hands of men inspired by God, the Holy Ghost, and the marginal notes in which this effectively schismatic cult in Ireland and then England has their theology on the side of the pages. And so they would look at that, not see the difference. And all of a sudden, well, if you fast forward to today,
41:17 Speaker 01 People believe that that's the view that the church has always held.
41:21 Tucker Carlson? So Darby comes up with this, as you said, novel theology, cultish theology, non, non, non-traditional Christian theology, but it's disseminated effectively by this guy Schofield, the family abandoner.
41:38 Speaker 01 Schofield's name's on it.
41:39 Tucker Carlson? Name's on it.
41:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:40 Tucker Carlson? What was his motive? Do we know?
41:44 Speaker 01 I don't think that Schofield's motive is sinister either. I don't mean to throw him under the bus like he's a bad guy or a villain. I do think it was weird that he didn't think to himself, okay, so I'm a relative nobody. Why am I, why are strangers paying to sail me across the ocean to meet with people I don't know at Oxford?
42:07 Tucker Carlson? Oh, strangers did pay his way across to do that?
42:10 Speaker 01 There's nothing in Schofield's life that would suggest that he would have had the funds to pay for that himself. There's a couple of things there that don't make a lot of sense, including the, the club that he was a part of in New York with a, you know, dues that it would not be reasonable to presume someone of Schofield's lack of employment would be able to afford. So, yeah, he goes across the ocean and he meets with high society. It's Oxford, right? And they discuss putting this Bible into print and it was the first Bible of its kind in which, in which the marginal notes are going to have, you know, theological content.
42:55 Tucker Carlson? So a built-in study guide.
42:56 Speaker 01 Of that kind. Yeah. It's a, it's a built-in study Bible, which was totally new. So if you couldn't go to seminary, it's okay. Just buy Schofield's Bible and believe what's within his pages.
43:08 Tucker Carlson? So it sounds like you're suggesting that he was himself knowingly or not kind of an op.
43:14 Speaker 01 I think he was a patsy. Yeah, I think that the Zionists in the UK, the political scientists, Zionists got wind of what the Plymouth Brethren were teaching. That's Darby's bunch. And they thought, well, at the same time, you've got Theodore Herzl, who is trying to get Europe to buy into the Zionist project. And this eschatology is growing over here, which could be helpful to their cause. And yeah, they disseminated the Bible, the Schofield's Bible, I think, for clearly political reasons.
43:55 Tucker Carlson? So this came from the UK. Zionism as an idea really kind of gathered steam first in the UK, in England. Why? Any idea?
44:13 Speaker 01 I don't know why specifically Zionism, religious Zionism took off in England organically. I mean, that's where the Plymouth Brethren moved to. So that would make sense. But I would point out that the same institution that printed the Schofield Bible is the same institution that published the Balfour Declaration within a year. Yeah. So it's practically the same people. So within a year of the Balfour Declaration, you have this, hey, coincidentally, really
44:54 Speaker 01 great new theology that helps to support back up the political ambition of the Zionists.
45:02 Tucker Carlson? I had no idea. That's amazing. So then it comes to the United States where it really takes root.
45:09 Tucker Carlson? And that's about when this is pre First World War that this hits the US?
45:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, so it would have been, what was it, 1907, I think Schofield was published. And so, yeah, it came to the United States very quickly. And it just grew like wildfire because you've got Baptists, Methodists, Congregationalists. You have the Azusa Street Revival, which is just starting to kick off charismaticism. So anybody in that, in those circles, they're probably not going to a seminary. They're not mainstream Protestant that would have had the brick and mortar seminaries. You know, your Presbyterians, your Episcopalians and so forth. And so, you know, good for them.
45:53 Speaker 01 They got to avoid most of the dispensationalism problem for quite a long time. But now today, they're ate up with dispensationalism. But it's, it's really not theological for the mainstream Protestants. It's just, it's soaked in through culture, through various channels. But it didn't come through their seminaries and Bible colleges. As a matter of fact, Presbyterians, for example, they are the arch covenant theologians. Their doctrine should be hostile to dispensationalism.
46:33 Speaker 01 But you'll still find a lot of Protest, excuse me, Presbyterians who will tell you that Jews are God's chosen people just because they, at this point, were receiving this through osmosis as Christians. It's just, it's everywhere. As Christians, you're supposed to support Israel. With Carrie Prigene Bowler, if I'm pronouncing her name right.
46:58 Speaker 01 I think that she shocked a lot of people when at the Religious Liberty Council meeting, she had said as a Catholic, "We don't support Israel," or "we're not Zionists." And that shocked a lot of people as though she's making that up. And they don't realize that The vast majority of Christendom has a confession of faith for their specific church that does not allow for the belief that the Jews are the chosen people of God. And so, um, it's most people these days aren't that aware of what their own doctrine is.
47:37 Tucker Carlson? That's right.
47:37 Speaker 01 You know, so there's a sort of a doctrinal downgrade, so to speak. That's what Spurgeon would have called it. A theological dumbing down where Christians don't know what their own beliefs are supposed to be.
47:52 Tucker Carlson? Interesting. So there does, even if you accept the precepts of dispensationalism as, as just described by you, it's still a jump to go from that to unlimited military aid to the modern secular state of Israel.
48:09 Speaker 01 Right.
48:10 Tucker Carlson? No?
48:10 Speaker 01 No, it's a, it's a huge jump. So it's, on one hand, we can acknowledge, let's say I am a premillennialist and I believe that Jesus is going to literally come reign from Jerusalem one day. It's, it's one thing to believe that, that one day a bunch of Jews are going to get saved and become Christians. That would be wonderful if that happens. That's great. What does that have to do with me supporting the state of Israel today? God may one day save the Jews. Great, hope he does. The promises are in the Bible that he will, so I believe that that will happen one day.
48:52 Speaker 01 But that does not imply that I therefore have to become part of a protectorate to protect a kingdom of Jews whose king is not welcome. And for me, that's the offensive part as a Christian, being told that I have to support the Israeli state. Like I support Jesus. Jesus is not welcome in the Israeli state. Like the, the rite of return, for example, gives Jews the permission to come back no matter like their blood quantum. They don't have to be a certain portion Jewish, right? They have to be, if you have one grandparent out of four Jewish, you can come from anywhere in the world.
49:34 Speaker 01 To Israel, they'll let you immigrate and become a citizen because the thought process is Jews need a safe place in the world, right? That's the, that's the philosophy. Unless you're a Christian. If you are a Jew who believes in Jesus, you're not welcome back.
49:52 Tucker Carlson? Is that true?
49:53 Speaker 01 Oh, that's absolutely true. Yeah. So the way that
49:56 Tucker Carlson? You can be 100% Jewish by blood.
49:58 Speaker 01 Yes.
49:58 Tucker Carlson? But if you profess Jesus, you do not have the right to return?
50:01 Speaker 01 You can be 100% Jewish by blood, you know, in terms of your ethnicity. But if you believe in Jesus, you cannot return, even if you're under persecution in your home country, hypothetically, if that were to happen. So let's say they're persecuting Jews based on their ethnicity in some country somewhere. They don't care if they're a Christian, they're ethnically Jewish, they're going to put them to death. Now, the right of return would not allow them to return. The right of return specifically are for, is for Jews who either remain Jewish or have not,
50:40 Speaker 01 at the least, joined another religion. So if you are an atheist Jew, they don't classify that as a religion. So you can come back. If you are an agnostic Jew, you can come back to Israel. If you're a Christian Jew, you cannot.
50:55 Tucker Carlson? So you can affirmatively, out loud, reject the Torah and the Talmud and all religious expression Judaism. I don't believe in Judaism. I think it's absurd.
51:04 Speaker 01 You can be a non-practicing Jew with the right of return.
51:06 Tucker Carlson? You can be anti-practicing Jew, like atheist, literally atheist.
51:10 Speaker 01 Well, you can be a Satanist as long as that is not organized Satanism.
51:16 Speaker 01 Unless you are a member with your name on the roll of an official church of Satan somewhere, let's just say you practice the occult, you can come in to Israel as long as you have not joined another religion like Christianity.
51:35 Tucker Carlson? What do Christian Zionists say about that?
51:37 Speaker 01 Well, first of all, a lot of them don't believe it, you know?
51:40 Tucker Carlson? They don't believe that's true?
51:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, they're like, well, that can't, that can't be true because, you know, they, they've been told, you know, that Jews and that Israelis love Christians and that we have this shared religious heritage, which of course is not true at all. And that they are, you know, they're friends of Christians. So it's, it's like it boggles their mind. Well, that can't be true. Well, that is true. You know, Israel's not a friend of Christianity, not at all. You know, there are laws on the books in the state of Israel that forbid evangelism
52:20 Speaker 01 over the airwaves, that forbid evangelism to minors.
52:26 Speaker 01 As a matter of fact, Ron Cantor, I don't know if you know that name or not. Ron Cantor is a, a Christian celebrity in Israel, and he was on X one day talking about how loving and kind Israel is to him as a Jew who believes in Jesus. And they will phrase it that way on purpose
52:52 Speaker 01 so as to not imply that they're a Christian, because if they say they're a Christian, they might have to leave. So they'll say Jew who believes in Jesus.
53:03 Speaker 01 They're trying to work the system. So I look him up, Ron Cantor, and he has a television station, a Christian television station in Israel. And in 2020, they took his broadcast license because they said that he was telling Jews that they needed Jesus. And so he had to promise that he would not give the gospel to Jewish people, that he would not try to spread the name and the fame of Jesus over the radio waves so that they would give him his quote unquote, Christian station back. And there he is bragging about how great Israel treats Christians.
53:43 Speaker 01 They took away his, his broadcast license for sharing Christ. So there are these so-called Christian Jews in Israel that again, they probably don't call themselves Christian Jews. It's Jews who believe in Jesus. There are some that are there like him, whose purpose it is, is to tell Christians how great it is in Israel. Listen to, listen to this person tell you about how great Christians are treated in Israel. But you and I both know that Christians are not treated well in Israel at all.
54:17 Tucker Carlson? No, no, they're not. In fact, they're, they're the subject of a lot of hostility and, and in a lot of cases, violence. And it's interesting how many Christians were expelled from their lands and their homes in 1948 with the foundation of the, the formation of the state of Israel.
54:35 Speaker 01 Well, the church there is still having their property confiscated to this day for settlement. You know, with the Orthodox Church, they, Israel closed their bank or froze their, their bank account because they didn't pay their tax. It was a tax that they just suddenly threw on them. All this time, they've not had to pay that, that tax. Israel throws it on them. They couldn't afford it because it was years worth. And they confiscated their bank account and threatened to take their property. The Ottomans didn't charge churches tax. And so when the Ottomans were in control of the promised land for 400 years
55:17 Speaker 01 in the millet system, they didn't charge churches tax. Israel started just a few years ago. And, uh, you know, so that Christians have pressure applied to them. I mean, native believers, the ones who, whose churches have been there longer than Israel has been a state. They're the ones that are facing the pressure that it's very hard to get Christians in America to care about at all.
55:41 Tucker Carlson? And their Muslim rulers didn't. Do that during the Ottoman period.
55:45 Speaker 01 Okay, so the answer is no. The Muslim rulers didn't tax churches during the Ottoman period. They were very kind to Christians. As a matter of fact, they took care of our holy sites. They had rebuilt Islamic authorities, rebuilt the Church of the Sepulcher three different times over the centuries.
56:10 Speaker 01 They had a law protecting Christian pilgrims on their journey, like nobody messed with the-
56:16 Tucker Carlson? The Ottoman Turks, the Muslim rulers of the Holy Land rebuilt the Church of the Holy Sepulcher three times?
56:21 Speaker 01 Three times, yeah. Either completely rebuilt it, or a major renovation, one time it caught on fire and they redid the roof. But if you've seen the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, you can imagine what it took to redo that.
56:33 Tucker Carlson? No, it's enormous. It's enormous and decaying. Well, sadly, it's an amazing place.
56:39 Speaker 01 Well, a lot of those sites have started to decay since 1948.
56:43 Tucker Carlson? That one definitely is decaying and just physically, the physical building, the plant is kind of falling apart.
56:51 Speaker 01 Some of the opposition to the Zionist project in Great Britain in the 1940s was on account of the Muslim authorities having taken such good care of our Christian sites that it was a bit of a gamble to let Jewish authorities do that. You know, I've heard people say, if it wasn't for Israel, we wouldn't be able to go visit our holy sites. There wouldn't even be holy sites anymore. And it's like, who do you think has been taking care of them this whole time? It's been the Islamic authorities who've had, you know, control in that region
57:32 Speaker 01 that because of the Islamic view of Jesus, they've actually been quite kind to the holy sites in the region.
57:42 Tucker Carlson? What is the Islamic view of Jesus?
57:45 Speaker 01 Well, I don't want to say that Muslims have a high view of Jesus. I want, the reason is, is because Jesus is not fictional. Jesus is real. Jesus of Nazareth is a real biological person to this day. He still exists. He's in heaven. He's not here. I would say that Muslims have a false view of Jesus. It's not the real view of Jesus, but they're actually quite fond of him. And so they believe that Jesus was sent by God, that he was of God, that he said true things, that he performed real miracles, and
58:25 Speaker 01 that he's actually coming again. That doesn't make them Christians. It doesn't mean that-
58:31 Tucker Carlson? Muslims believe Jesus is coming again?
58:33 Speaker 01 They do. As a prophet, not as the Messiah, but they believe in his return.
58:40 Tucker Carlson? So, there's been an effort to, to propagandize American Christians on this question in churches as well?
58:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't know how official it is, but it's when you, when you listen to Christians talk about Islam, they'll say things like, "Well, we've got to maintain good relationships with Israel because Islam and Christianity are natural enemies." Well, I'm not saying that we're not. I'm not saying that Islam and Christianity have ever had any kind of partnership, but honestly, it's rabbinic Judaism and Christianity that historically has been at odds. It's the idea that Christians and Jews have gotten along this whole time and that we have to band together to protect ourself against the Muslims is a very recent
59:39 Speaker 01 notion. This wasn't something that was ever posited, like before the 20th century, that part is brand new. And it comes from, you know, the Jewish talking points that you see on the television and the news constantly.
59:52 Tucker Carlson? So it's a political construct? That's been accepted as a theological reality by American Christians.
59:59 Speaker 01 I would say that's the case. There's so much crossover between what is political and what is theological when it comes to Israel, that sometimes it's really hard to determine what is theological propaganda and what is political propaganda. Because when it's being done to us, the people doing it, for them, it's all political propaganda. They're not trying to change our religion when they tell us this stuff as Christians. They just want us to have a different political perspective. They have to come at it from the angle of theology.
1:00:34 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
1:00:34 Speaker 01 Right? And so that's the sad thing about dispensationalism is it, at the heart of it, there are people who really believe this.
1:00:43 Tucker Carlson? For sure.
1:00:43 Speaker 01 Darby believed it. I think Schofield believed it. Christians today, they believe it. They're very committed to it, but it's being promoted and propagated by people who don't believe it at all.
1:00:55 Tucker Carlson? And who don't care one way or the other.
1:00:56 Speaker 01 But they find it very helpful, you know, for their purposes.
1:01:01 Tucker Carlson? So one of those interested parties is the, is the actual government of Israel.
1:01:07 Speaker 01 Yep.
1:01:08 Tucker Carlson? What is the government of Israel doing to convince American Christians that supporting the secular state of Israel is their religious duty? Like, what, what does that propaganda campaign look like?
1:01:20 Speaker 01 So I believe it's $729 million is what the Knesset set aside to fund the
1:01:32 Speaker 01 project through the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. $729 million through their public diplomacy unit is what they call it. $729 million, that was budgeted for the year 2026. They have a part of that, $729 million for public diplomacy.
1:01:57 Speaker 01 Called Project 545, which is $145 million budget, set aside to affect or manipulate AI and search engine results primarily for Americans. Just to give you an idea of how much that is, at the height of the Soviet Union, their budget was $3.5 million for what they called their active measures. Active measures was Soviet propaganda. $3.5 million. But that had to cover essentially five continents, because the Soviet Union was everywhere, right? It was a bipolar world, had to cover most of the world.
1:02:39 Speaker 01 And that, it was through that program that they, you know, did their common turn exercises and For sure. infiltrating communist propaganda into education and religion and all these different avenues where it could affect Americans and also people from all over the world. So $3.5 million is what the Soviets spent at the height of it for their active measures. The public diplomacy unit under the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs is a quarter of that, right? It's, it's about a quarter of that. But that's all spent on the United States. They're not spending that from, you know, on
1:03:22 Speaker 01 other, other nations on different continents and, and different countries that can't benefit them politically. Israel just has to have the United States as an ally. It doesn't have to work hard to gain Brazil as an ally, right? Or any, anyone else. We are the ones with the veto power at the UN and the Security Council. Of course. All they need is us. So we're the ones that are the denised recipients of that $145 million affecting even what our AI says and our search engine results.
1:04:03 Speaker 01 All that is affecting us, how we, you know, view Israel. But on top of that, you see the religious infiltration.
1:04:13 Speaker 01 Which I know you've had other guests on to talk about that recently, but through the, um, the different, uh, pay-throughs.
1:04:24 Tucker Carlson? What is, I mean, just give us a broad outline of what the propaganda effort against American churches from Israel looks like. Geo-fencing, for example, what is that?
1:04:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, so there were four different organizations that had basically signed up, registered with FARA, Foreign Agents Registration Act.
1:04:47 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
1:04:48 Speaker 01 And I think it was Clock Tower X, and then also, um, Show Faith by Works, and then a couple more. And the geo-fencing thing, I know that you've discussed, basically they're outlining, outlining, uh, churches, uh, on a map invisibly, so that when you go there and you leave, it'll ping your phone with different types of propaganda.
1:05:12 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
1:05:12 Speaker 01 Right? Assuming that you went to church there, so maybe you would be more susceptible to some, you know, dispensational advertisement about why it's your duty as a Christian to support Israel. But there's a lot that hasn't been discussed. That, that really has, the geo-fencing campaign, and I think that once it got exposed, they had maybe said at some point, um, Brad Parscale had
1:05:37 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
1:05:38 Speaker 01 Taken a step back and said, maybe we won't do the geo-fencing thing, that was just a suggestion, or we wanted to do that. It was a $4 million, it was the same group, $4 million sending a bus with basically, uh, an Israeli, it's an Israeli propaganda bus with VR headsets and, um, things for, it was targeting young men ages 16 to 24. So it would roll into church parking lots and it would have a multimedia, uh, display for the young men to watch the IDF in action. And it would show what happened on October 7th, and then how heroic the IDF is.
1:06:24 Speaker 01 In church parking lots so that they would leave not learning anything more about Jesus, right? Or God, or scripture, or the Torah. It wasn't theological. It was purely political.
1:06:39 Tucker Carlson? Well, that's
1:06:40 Speaker 01 But it's being done in church parking lots.
1:06:42 Tucker Carlson? With the knowledge of the of the pastor of the church?
1:06:45 Speaker 01 I would assume so. So when they did their fair filing, they didn't say, we're going to these specific churches. They did say, we're going to churches in these states. But yeah, you can bet your bottom dollar that if they have permission to roll into a megachurch parking lot and set up shop with their bus for young men to come out and see the videos about how great and heroic the IDF is, that it, I'm sure that the pastor would give them permission to do that.
1:07:13 Tucker Carlson? I mean, Christians oppose abortion, probably for a bunch of reasons, but fundamentally because it's the murder of innocents. The baby didn't do anything wrong.
1:07:21 Speaker 01 Right.
1:07:22 Tucker Carlson? You can't kill the innocent. And Christians know that, and they stand on that. This is the most, the IDF is most brutal military in the world, which is globally renowned for murdering innocents.
1:07:33 Speaker 01 Right.
1:07:33 Tucker Carlson? At scale.
1:07:34 Speaker 01 Right.
1:07:35 Tucker Carlson? How could any Christian pastor allow pro IDF propaganda on his property?
1:07:40 Speaker 01 You know, I wonder how many of those pastors understand that it is propaganda? Keep in mind, they're not, they're not going out of their way to consume media that is outside of the ecosystem, the news ecosystem of that which is controlled by pro-Israel, or if not pro-Israel, pro neocon, pro-war programming. I mean, they're getting pro-war ideology from places like Fox News. I mean, if, I'm sure that if you took a sample of 100 megachurch pastors, and asked where are you getting your source, your news source, probably all of them are
1:08:24 Speaker 01 going to put Fox News as number one. So that's what they're getting. You know, when you talk to these pastors about Israeli war crimes, you're like, you know, did you know that they got caught, the IDF, on camera sodomizing a prisoner so badly, his large intestine fell out, he went into critical condition, and they almost, you know, he almost died in the hospital. And then
1:08:51 Speaker 01 They just let him go back to Gaza and said he couldn't return that way. They couldn't, you know, charge, they couldn't have the trial of the IDF soldiers who did that because the victim can't come back to testify. And the pastors, Christians, whoever you talk to about this will say, that doesn't, that doesn't sound right. That must be Hamas, you know, propaganda. It's like when you talk to them about the death stats in Gaza, and you say, do you realize that almost eight people out of 10 that are being killed in Gaza, at, at least that are civilian noncombatants?
1:09:35 Speaker 01 It's really easy to look at you and just say, that's propaganda. That's clearly from the Gaza, you know, Ministry of Health. And when Israel admitted those figures in February, then that doesn't make the news and they don't see it. And it's, it's really hard to convince someone who believes that Israel is chosen by God and special in a way that you're not special. It's really hard to get that person to then evaluate what's happening in light of biblical ethics, because who am I? I'm not special. Who am I to question
1:10:14 Speaker 01 God's special chosen people over here? And so that notion of God playing favorites, God having a special people based on ethnicity, that clouds their judgment from start to finish. It almost beats down mentally the person who holds that view. It, it, it dismantles their ability to look objectively at what's happening in the Middle East.
1:10:47 Tucker Carlson? It's almost like a spell that way.
1:10:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's a self-loathing because you're just a Gentile. These people, these are the chosen people. And God, yeah, God's loving, he's kind. He let you in to their religion.
1:11:04 Speaker 01 But you're never gonna be Jewish. They're special. And it's so infuriating because the scripture teaches the exact opposite message. I'm God's chosen. I'm the child of Abraham, according to the scripture, very explicitly in Galatians 3. In 1 Peter, chapter 2, the apostle Peter says that we are God's chosen nation and royal priesthood and people for God's own possession. He's talking about the Christian church, which is shock full of Gentiles. He's not talking about Jews. We're the chosen nation. They're a desert war cult who's murdering a lot of innocent people.
1:11:48 Speaker 01 It's okay to judge them. God's not going to, you know, be hostile with you because you've looked at what's happening over there and said, you know what, it's not okay to bomb an apartment building because there might be a terrorist in apartment 3G. And there's so many different things about the IDF that Christians need to know, but they, they don't have a frame of reference because there's, there's not an effective news source breaking through to evangelicals who are all pigeonholed in like this neocon influenced news environment. And so it's like, you know, their targeting program, their AI targeting program that is
1:12:31 Speaker 01 designed to, I think, maximize civilian damage is called the gospel. That's what the IDF named it. There's two of them. Well, there's, there's three. There's Daddy's Home. You've heard of this one? No. Oh, Daddy's Home. Okay. This is
1:12:54 Speaker 01 astoundingly inhumane. So their AI targeting program that lets them know when a target comes within a specific location, essentially geofencing. But instead of church, it's their home. It will notify essentially Skynet when to send the missile, when to drop the bomb. And it's called Daddy's Home because it waits for the terrorist, alleged terrorist. Keep in mind, these aren't people who've been tried or anything. There's no trial for them. The alleged terrorist gets home and then it pings Daddy's Home.
1:13:36 Speaker 01 Daddy's Home then sends the missile to kill them.
1:13:40 Tucker Carlson? The family.
1:13:43 Speaker 01 They would say that that is a target and the target used some human shields. And if human shields die in the process, that's on the terrorists. But it's called Daddy's Home because it's waiting for them to get home. That's not something that the American military does. We don't wait for targets to get home before we bomb them, but the IDF does. So it is about 90%, 85 to 90% of the people dead in Gaza are civilian noncombatants. That's not from trying to miss civilian noncombatants, right? That's like you targeting them.
1:14:24 Speaker 01 It's like doctors testifying that more than 400 kids that they've seen in the hospital, the last remaining hospital in Gaza that's still open. 400 kids dead with a sniper wound, a sniper round caliber in the head. It's not from shrapnel. And so, yeah, they're waiting for people to get home before they blow them up. And anyways, that was Daddy's Home. There's another one that this called the Gospel. And so I think that it's.
1:15:01 Tucker Carlson? Why do they call it the Gospel?
1:15:05 Speaker 01 I think because it's deadly and kills a lot of people and that's their way to mock Christianity, that that is their good news.
1:15:17 Speaker 01 So, let me explain that.
1:15:21 Speaker 01 The bloodshed of the old covenant religion of Moses is what symbolized the forgiveness of sins.
1:15:31 Speaker 01 It allowed them to see and understand the Messiah and what Jesus would do on the cross and by his blood were actually forgiven. But after the temple fell in 70 AD with no altar, no temple, with no priesthood to make those sacrifices, with no blood being shed,
1:15:55 Speaker 01 where does the blood come from in rabbinic Judaism? And I think it comes from their fixation on war. I think that they view it as
1:16:07 Speaker 01 almost an actual, real atonement, that they are accomplishing something of spiritual value when they
1:16:20 Speaker 01 when they go to war and kill Gentiles.
1:16:25 Speaker 01 That seems controversial, I'm sure, but their version of Passover, which is not the Passover that God gave Moses, it's the one the rabbis made up. Did you know that-
1:16:35 Tucker Carlson? How is it? I ask you a pause, how is it different from the Passover described in the Torah?
1:16:40 Speaker 01 Well, because there's no actual sacrifice, there's no actual bloodshed. So, all the different rites and rituals of the seder that they observe, none of that is in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, there was unleavened bread and there was wine and bitter herbs, and then the sacrifice itself. So-
1:17:01 Tucker Carlson? Where an animal would be killed?
1:17:02 Speaker 01 Yes. Yes, for the purposes of atonement. In the Passover, their Passover version, between the third and the fourth cup, they drink to the damnation of the nations, and in particular to Rome, who they associate with Christianity.
1:17:21 Tucker Carlson? Presently?
1:17:23 Speaker 01 Presently. So, whenever Mike Huckabee says-
1:17:28 Speaker 01 Happy Passover. It's a very common thing for dispensationalists to wish happy Passover for, you know, their Jewish friends. They don't realize what they're saying. They're not observing the ritual that God gave Moses. They're observing the ritual that the rabbis made up in the centuries following Jesus. The, um, third and fourth cup, they take a drink and they pray a prayer specifically for the destruction of the nations, the Goy, the Goyim. And in particular, Rome, and in Jewish
1:18:09 Speaker 01 and rabbinical writings, they associate Rome with Christianity because Rome became Christianized, and that's the association that you see together in rabbinic literature. Um, one of the, the prayers that Jews pray three times a day prays for the destruction of their enemies. This isn't,
1:18:33 Speaker 01 rabbinic Judaism is not Christianity minus Jesus. That's what Christians need to understand.
1:18:39 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
1:18:40 Speaker 01 It is a completely different faith from what you see in the pages of your Old Testament.
1:18:48 Tucker Carlson? Because that faith required the presence of a temple where God lived.
1:18:54 Speaker 01 Yes, absolutely. It's in the architecture of the religion. God designed it so that it could not endure without the temple. That's why God is always promising the Jewish people in the, in the pages of the Old Testament, that if they misbehave, he will have the land vomit them out. He will bring them into exile. He will wipe the land free of them. And he created a religion that would be temporary. It all revolves around the temple, and they weren't free to change that religion either, you know? And I'll give you an example. There's a story in the Old Testament
1:19:35 Speaker 01 of two guys that were left behind to essentially, uh, guard the altar as Moses and the elders go up on the mountain. Their names were Nadab and Abaihu. They took-
1:19:51 Speaker 01 Their own light and decided to light the altar with their own fire. King James calls it strange fire because it wasn't native to the altar. It was their own light. They used their own Zippo, in other words. And God destroyed them. He killed them. Those two guys, the ground swallowed them up and ate them, destroyed them in fire. Because the faith of the Old Testament was given, the cultic religion, to Israel very specifically. It had to be observed a very specific way, through the specific means that God gave. They weren't supposed to deviate at all.
1:20:32 Speaker 01 It's like the guy that reached out to grab the holy of holies before it hit the ground and God killed. Well, God didn't tell him to touch it. He told him not to touch it. Follow God's rules is the point. It's a very precise religion because everything is designed to point to Jesus in a very specific, in a very specific way. And so the Passover religion that they're, or rather the Passover rite that they're observing, and in fact, most of rabbinic Judaism is way more deviated from the Old Testament than just what Zippo was used to light the altar. It's a complete manufacture of new rites and rituals that aren't in the text at all.
1:21:16 Speaker 01 It's not, it's not the same religion. So when people say Jesus was a Jew, it's like, well, yes, in a sense he was. He was a physical descendant of David and of Abraham. But if you're implying that Jesus was a rabbinic Jew, no, he wasn't. That was a completely different religion. And most Christians don't, don't grasp that. They think that, you know, Jesus was a Jew, like Ben Shapiro. Jesus would not have recognized Ben Shapiro's religion. The Apostle Paul would not have recognized it. They would have taken a look at it and said, what is this?
1:21:56 Tucker Carlson? Because it didn't exist.
1:21:57 Speaker 01 It didn't exist. They call some things the same words, but it's a fundamentally different religion.
1:22:04 Tucker Carlson? So most Americans are not aware of that. You would think that ordained ministers would be aware of that. Mike Huckabee is an ordained minister. He had a church for years in Arkansas.
1:22:16 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, you would think that Mike Huckabee would know, as he quotes Genesis 12, 3, that Galatians 3 specifically says that's not for Jews. So then you're left with one of, one of two options. The first one is Mike Huckabee, a Baptist minister, knows his Bible. The Bible says in Galatians 3, Paul says, "I'm not talking about Jews. It's not about Jews. That verse is about Jesus, and the promises are for Christians. They're the heirs of the promise." That's option A. He knows that, but he's lying. The other option is he genuinely doesn't know that. Totally ignorant. He's never, ever read Galatians in his life. I don't think
1:23:00 Speaker 01 that's really plausible. I would suspect he has read it. I don't know what he does with it, other than, at a certain point, we have to start asking ourselves if there's active concealment. If you know what the scripture says, that these are promises for Christians, but you are applying it to Jews in direct contradiction to what the apostle Paul said in terms of how that should be interpreted, at what point do we start looking at them as the bad guys?
1:23:30 Tucker Carlson? Well, I definitely look at them as the bad guys. I'll say that. As to motive, though, it's a little muddier, I think. I mean, I look at someone like Huckabee, and it feels to me, unknowable, of course, but it feels like he really believes what he says. But it's so obviously in contradiction of what he says his faith is, that, that there seems to be like a delusion or something going on.
1:23:52 Speaker 01 Huckabee's a weird one, because, yeah, he's a Baptist. Most Baptists are dispensationalist. But with, with Huckabee, you see things that I can only characterize as deceit. For example,
1:24:14 Speaker 01 Huckabee saying that the Jonathan Pollard, he acted in your interview as though he was vaguely familiar with Pollard? Yeah, I had him, he came by, he stopped, he stopped by the embassy and I let him, he just wanted to say thank you, as though I could just do that, right? Just stop and talk to the ambassador. But I was watching that interview and I had just done an article at Insight2Insight, my Substack, that laid out how Huckabee had been working for years to get him released from prison before he was released. So I'm watching that and I'm going, did he forget that he had been working to advocating
1:24:59 Speaker 01 for his release for years?
1:25:01 Tucker Carlson? Like 20 years?
1:25:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was a long time. So, you know, has he been that much of a hardcore dispensationalist the whole time? That as he was governor of Arkansas, or even before, he sees a spy who stole our nuclear secrets to give them to Israel, who would then give them to Russia? Did he even back then love the Jews so much, he was trying to get a spy sprung from an American prison? Because that's, that's a little bit, that's so hardcore dispensationalist. I don't, I don't really think that's a spiritual thing. In other words, I think that's a political corruption.
1:25:47 Speaker 01 I don't think that's a spiritual corruption. I think that the political corruption is using spirituality and Christianity as a shield to do evil and wicked things. And I think that that's a lot of what you see in the dispensational marketplace of ideas, so to speak. You're seeing a lot of good, honest, God-fearing Christians that we go to church with and we may work with, good folks, our neighbors, who have this mindset that, well, I have to support Israel because the Bible tells me to. But the people at the top that are spreading that message, the Mike Huckabee's of the world, they do know better than that.
1:26:34 Speaker 01 They know better and they're, you know, they're defending things that cannot be defended and they're doing so in the, in the name of Christ.
1:26:44 Tucker Carlson? Is that, I, I should say for people who haven't followed your career, that you've been writing about kind of intra Protestant disputes for a very long time and you're one of the American experts on this topic. So like you know what's going on in Protestant Christianity in the US, I think. Is that changing?
1:27:04 Speaker 01 Is what changing?
1:27:05 Tucker Carlson? This reflexive commitment to a non-Christian theology that has resulted in very weird political positions.
1:27:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely.
1:27:17 Tucker Carlson? Christians supporting genocide. Well, how could that happen?
1:27:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:27:20 Tucker Carlson? This is how you.
1:27:20 Speaker 01 So I would say at, at insight to insight, I have the average age of my audience probably over 50. It's a pretty old audience and it is every single day that I have people say, I never knew that Genesis, chapter 12, the Abrahamic promise is specifically reserved for Christians, or I never knew that Romans 11 says that Jews without faith in Jesus are cut off from God and Abraham. And they're coming to these conclusions for the first time. And a lot of that is because of the internet. The internet's been around, I mean,
1:28:00 Speaker 01 what, a long time at this point, but these discussions on theological polemics, that has not been readily available online. Polemics is a field of theological study like apologetics, but it deals with those who claim to be Christians but are not, as opposed to apologetics, which deals with other religions.
1:28:24 Tucker Carlson? Right.
1:28:25 Speaker 01 Polemics is more internal. For example, Mike Lee says, uh, a couple of weeks ago that Mormons are Christians. It would be polemics. It would be the field of theological study where you'd come along and say, well, let's evaluate the claims of Joseph Smith and compare that to the Bible and see whether or not that's Christian. So that maybe be, be more of a polemical.
1:28:53 Speaker 01 You know, thing to do that as opposed to apologetic.
1:28:57 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
1:28:57 Speaker 01 That's new. And so there's a lot more Christians, I think, at least this is my, my finger on the pulse of evangelical Christianity online. A lot more Christians desiring to be discerning, where they're actually looking at what people say in the name of God and comparing that to the word of God, to determine whether or not what they're being told is accurate. And the first thing that they're discovering is, you know what, the Bible actually doesn't say I have to, you know, defend Israel, no matter what it is that they do.
1:29:31 Tucker Carlson? So it sounds like there's a kind of second reformation going on within Protestant Christianity.
1:29:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, I, the reason I hesitate at reformation is I would like, I would like it to see a little bit more robustly theological. So it's still on Israel, it's still political at this point. I think right now evangelicals are, are kind of angry that they've been lied to about what Israel is. And one of the reasons why I think they're freaking out on their side when they look over and they say, look at all of this antisemitism. They're seeing people that are mad at Israel. For the vast majority of people, for Christians, who have finally figured out that Israel is not the chosen people of God,
1:30:25 Speaker 01 irrespective of denying Christ. It's that for the first time in their life, they figured out that they've been lied to about something and they're kind of mad right now.
1:30:34 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
1:30:35 Speaker 01 I think most people will calm down if you give them a little bit of time.
1:30:38 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
1:30:38 Speaker 01 So societally, there are a lot of people whose eyes have been open to, hey, you know what, they taught me in Sunday school for 20 years, 30 years, 50 years, is nonsense. And they, they get a little bit feisty, you know, they're upset.
1:30:56 Tucker Carlson? Well, they should be upset.
1:30:58 Speaker 01 Well, that's the natural result of what happens when you're lied to.
1:31:02 Tucker Carlson? Questions, temporal questions, you know, they're of limited significance. Theological questions, which bear on eternity, are inherently meaningful.
1:31:11 Speaker 01 Oh, right.
1:31:12 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
1:31:14 Tucker Carlson? Yeah. Is there any?
1:31:17 Tucker Carlson? Popular Protestant American Christian leader who is rejecting explicitly rejecting dispensationalism and all that its political implications.
1:31:29 Speaker 01 So what's happening in evangelicalism is a complete fracturing of the movement as a whole, so that the big name leaders like your John McArthurs and your R.C. Sprouls, those guys are dead, basically is what's happening. So there's a balkanization that's basically happening in American Protestantism and evangelicalism. You have a lot of people flocking to Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. Which, you know, as a Protestant, I never thought that I'd live to see that, but evangelicals are responding to their-
1:32:10 Tucker Carlson? I didn't know what it was. Eastern Orthodoxy? I had no idea what that was.
1:32:14 Speaker 01 Catholicism without the Pope, you know, that's, that's what most people think. They wear black instead of white. Yeah, it's the Eastern, the Eastern Church. And so they're, they are Catholic light, excuse me, Catholic like. If you're a Protestant, you're looking through Protestant eyes, they both have incense, their priests look like they wear dresses, you know, they say words, we don't know what they mean, and they speak in different languages. It all looks like hocus pocus when you're Protestant. But, but yeah, you know, there's a lot of difference between the Eastern and the Western Church. Protestant evangelicals
1:32:53 Speaker 01 are balkanizing, though, even in American evangelicalism, because we recognize that there is a sickness among Protestants that have decided to cater to worldliness. By that, I mean, doing what is popular in the culture as opposed to what is scriptural.
1:33:21 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
1:33:22 Speaker 01 And so there is, I think-
1:33:26 Speaker 01 Hell to pay for mega churches and for your, your big box evangelical super center churches. Because for so many years, their church growth methodology, or their church growth policy was just to see how big they could get. Almost growing a church the way Rome satisfied the Romans there at the end, just bread and circuses. You know, I used to joke about churches shooting midgets out of cannons just to get a crowd on Sunday. You know, pastors were coming in on zip lines and there's, it's always something attractional.
1:34:08 Speaker 01 And that's really great until the first time in your life, you hit a real crisis, or you have something that, that is deeply troubling you. You have an issue in your life that a good time on Sunday morning doesn't help you overcome. You need something deeper. And people are right now, I think, fighting, almost resisting the big box mega church experience in the United States, which is good and they should. And I hope that many of those big churches, not, not because they're big,
1:34:47 Speaker 01 but if they're big because they were trying to water down the doctrine and just see how many, you know, warm bodies they could put into a room at the same time and call the church. They should die because that's not actually biblically what a church is. So anyways, with the balkanization, you have Christians going their own way. So you don't see a lot of those huge names anymore. The big ones like Greg Laurie, they all, you know, he's got his own scandal right now. They're all scandalized and going away. But there are some mid, I call them mid-tier names of guys that are not bending the knee.
1:35:34 Speaker 01 To Israel and they're going to be in the camp that you would call covenantal or reformed, but they exist. And so I work with, for example, NXR, Joel Webin, I do a Substack for him and he's been very good on this topic. There are a couple of guys in Ogden, Utah with what's called New Christendom Press that have been very good on this issue too. So they're out there. You have to look a little bit harder. You're not going to see anytime soon a church marquee that says, "We do not stand with Israel." That's not going to happen. But I know for a fact that there are a lot of people inside
1:36:18 Speaker 01 American evangelical churches that are approaching the pastor privately saying,
1:36:25 Speaker 01 "Can we talk about Israel? Why are you promoting this?" Hey, on Sundays, in Sunday's sermon, "Why did you say Israel is the chosen people of God?" What are we? Are we not the chosen people of God? And make them wrestle through those important issues.
1:36:42 Tucker Carlson? Yeah, because the point is not just that it's inspired American Christians to support genocide, which it has, or the Netanyahu government, the buffoonish criminal government of Netanyahu, but that it diminishes Jesus within Christianity, like, and it corrupts the Christian faith. I mean, that's the real cost, it seems to me.
1:37:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, it does. And it, it, it's frustrating too, because you see the, the very people whose alleged ancestors crucified Jesus, almost using him as a mascot for, for genocide.
1:37:26 Speaker 01 Where they don't believe in Jesus, but they will look at you as a Christian and they'll say, you know, your Messiah is Jewish. I'm like, well, yeah, and your ancestors killed him. Like, I don't owe you anything. Mike Huckabee said, was it this week or was it last week that we have an eternal moral debt to the Jewish people? That line frustrated me so much. What do you mean, we have an eternal Jew, an eternal moral debt to the Jewish people? Jesus paid my debts. I'm a Christian. I don't have any debt to anyone, especially
1:38:06 Speaker 01 not on, on ethnic grounds. That's, that's absurd. As a matter of fact, the new covenant-
1:38:13 Tucker Carlson? The ultimate identity politics.
1:38:15 Speaker 01 Oh, my. The, the new covenant that Jesus installed, the difference is now, the, you know, the parents eat sour grapes and the children's teeth is not set on edge, that we're not paying for what our parents did. And so the eternal moral debt thing is just like an affront to what Jesus actually accomplished. But you have people who don't believe in Jesus try to take property and ownership of Jesus. And that's why we push back on them sometimes over the, the Jesus is Jewish thing. Like, you'll see some of us troublemakers push back on that. We don't mean to say he's not an ethnic descendant of Abraham, but
1:39:00 Speaker 01 he's not rabbinically Jewish and you don't own him. No one owns him. He's a son of man. He belongs to the entire world. That he came from the Jews, that's true. But he came for the nations. He came for everyone.
1:39:19 Speaker 01 And frankly, anyone who believes in Jesus is more an authentic child of Abraham than any Jew who doesn't. So at the end of the day, that's frankly, that's my promised land. Because the scripture says, I'm a joint heir with Jesus Christ, not them. I'm the joint heir. Jesus is entitled to all of the Middle East. He owns everything. And you know,
1:39:47 Speaker 01 the frustrating part of listening to the dispensationalists is that they get too caught up on who has the keys to the desert trailer park. Like, who has, you know, who has ownership of this little strip of land in the Middle East? And it's like, let me get this right. God, the Son, became an embryo and planted himself into the womb of a virgin, lived a life on earth that we should have lived, and then he died a death on our behalf. God the Father imputing sin to him, he died as a substitute in our place vicariously on
1:40:29 Speaker 01 our behalf, and then proving that his sacrifice was accepted, and that he truly is the Son of God. He rose again from the dead, 40 days later ascended into heaven, and he's coming back again. And what you're worried about is who has the keys to the West Bank and Gaza? Like, the Christian message is that Jesus is the owner and operator of every square inch of God's creation, every bit of it, not just this tiny little strip here. And dispensationalists are so busy focusing on how does this prophecy play out, and how does that prophecy play out, that they miss the big picture.
1:41:14 Tucker Carlson? They miss that it's a message of hate and division and violence and avarice, whereas the Christian message is love and unity and peace between people.
1:41:26 Speaker 01 I was thinking the other day, Tucker, how messed up it is that the message that you get from, from the Jewish front, basically, regarding the Iranian war right now, is if you love Jews, the way you can prove that, if you really love Jews as a Christian, the best way for you to prove that is for you to give them money, so they can buy more bombs to blow up more children over there, whether it's Lebanon, or Gaza, or in Iran.
1:42:05 Speaker 01 It's like, how offensive is it, as a Christian, to be told that the way I prove I love Jesus is to give you bombs to murder people, who, by the way, if we're talking, "I'll bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee," those people are related to Abraham too, through Ishmael.
1:42:27 Tucker Carlson? Yes, of course.
1:42:28 Speaker 01 They're his ethnic lineage also. It's like, you want me to give money to one child of Abraham genetically to murder another one, and that's how I prove my Christian faith? That's not Christian faith, that's downright satanic. Jesus said, "If you harm a little one, it'd be better that you tie a millstone around your neck and cast yourself into the sea." And here we have this whole Jewish slash Christian cottage industry, where we are collecting millions of dollars every Sunday into the offering plate to go directly to the Israeli state, not to share the gospel, not to tell anyone about Jesus
1:43:09 Speaker 01 and the good news of what Jesus did on the cross to save sinners from the wrath of God, but to, to give money.
1:43:18 Speaker 01 Essentially to a genocide fund. Mike Huckabee was a pastor. Do you think Mike Huckabee has ever stood on a street corner and told the Jewish people who their king is? There's not a chance in hell that he's done that, or else he wouldn't be the ambassador anymore. They'd have bought him a plane ticket. And so it's like, if you love Jesus, first and foremost, if you're a Christian, tell the Jews about Jesus. Because God wants to bring them to a saving faith in the king that they've rejected. And then, just like anyone else that you love, just because you love them doesn't mean you necessarily give them what they want.
1:44:01 Speaker 01 Because what Jews want from Christians is political clout in the United States to continue this violent Ponzi scheme that they have going on in the Middle East. And doing that in Jesus's name. So far as Christians are concerned, they're not doing it in Jesus's name when they don't need our money, but you know what I mean? We can't, we can't as Christians participate in that.
1:44:27 Tucker Carlson? No. JD Hall, thank you for that. That was great.
1:44:33 Speaker 01 Good to be with you.
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