The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney and Chris Ryan to talk about the playoff matchups they’re most excited about before they discuss their NBA awards picks (2:45). Then, Brian Windhorst joins to discuss Luka, international basketball, LeBron, and much more (1:22:09). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Jessie Lopez, and Steve Ceruti Get anything delivered on Uber Eats. www.ubereats.com The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  You're listening to the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. FanDuel Sportsbook is the best place to bet on the NBA. We have these fun little Tuesday, Friday player performance stuff. We have same game parlays. We have picks for me sometimes and boosts and all kinds of fun things. Get ready in the playoffs. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app today to get in on the action. And by the way, The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit theringer.com/rg to learn more. Listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus, president of select states. Game and problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Coming up, an NBA playoff mega preview. Plus, I'm going to do my NBA awards picks and a whole lot more. It's all next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season.

• 0:45Bill Simmons?

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• 1:29Bill Simmons?

  See app for details. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. New rewatchables coming for you on Monday. You can watch all the old episodes we've done on that feed, which is a video podcast now on Spotify plus Ringer Movies, our YouTube channel. You can watch all the clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. We are a video podcast now, which I hope you realize. Celtics City. So we have episode eight coming on Monday night and it's the one about how everything turns in the 2000s heading into the KG era. It's really good. You're not gonna believe this, but KG is a good interview. So you can check that out on Monday night. But in the meantime, because there's no basketball, we have a couple of playing games and then everything kicks in this weekend.

• 2:13Bill Simmons?

  But go check out Celtics City on Max. The first seven episodes are up. I was on Jimmy Kimmel Live last night promoting. It was great to go back. It's been 21 years since I worked. For that show, which is incredible, right? There's right now, there's 21 year old people probably insulting me and Jimmy on social media right now. That's how long it's been since I worked there, but it was awesome to go back. Coming up on this podcast, Rob Mahoney and Chris Ryan join me. We're going to preview our favorite round one playoff series. And then I'm going to do my NBA awards picks and bounce them off those guys once and for all. So that happened. And then a couple of days ago, Brian Windhorst came over to watch one of the playing games with

• 2:54Bill Simmons?

  me and we just went into my office and we taped an hour plus about just a whole bunch of evergreen basketball talk, which was really fun. It was great to see him. I've known him for a long time. So that is today's podcast. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 3:36Bill Simmons?

  All right, recording this part of the podcast on late Thursday morning Pacific time. Rob Mahoney is here. Chris Ryan, the NBA culture ombudsman of the ringer is here. It's a great new title. Big picture czar of the ringer. You just kind of float in with takes. We're going to try on some Thursday nights at least to, to have the three of us reacting off of some of these games. But I wanted to go through my NBA award stuff with you later. I'm going to talk about the series first because we just got news that Dame Lillard is playing in this Bucks series and the Bucks Pacers series now is, is a stealth most fun possibility for round one. Mahoney, series you're most looking forward to out of the eight? Now, we don't know the two playing matchups yet, but I, we assume those are going to be

• 4:20Bill Simmons?

  blowouts, but what's your, what's your favorite out of these eight?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  It's Rockets Warriors. I just think it has all the juice you could ask for, all the animosity you could ask for. A lot of people who are just kind of assholes to play against, and I mean that in a very complimentary way. So between like the, you know, jet fuel athleticism against the old savvy champions angle, plus all of that going on, like I, I find it hard to pick anything else.

• 4:44Bill Simmons?

  CR, that checks a lot of your boxes, too.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I kind of wish they would bring in soccer yellow cards to this series where they could just flash a bunch of them in the beginning. I'm really excited for this one. I was really nervous for the Warriors watching that Grizz game, watching the Grizzlies come back. Felt like the Warriors crowd kind of died a little bit in the second half as like they were getting clawed back into it.

• 5:07Bill Simmons?

  They got a little nervous.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and just you never want to go into the playoffs with your two best players grabbing at various extremities. So Steph's thumb, Jimmy's ankle. I'm excited to watch this very, you know, version of the Warriors, but the Rockets do seem like they were built in a lab to screw with them.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  You know what makes all that stuff better is when Dillon Brooks karate chops it, you know, just takes some body blows from a Steven Adams screen, you know, Amen Thompson blocking your shit. I'm sure it's going to go great for everybody.

• 5:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, Steven Adams has already reminded everyone that Draymond has kicked him in the balls two different times over the course of his career. Like, that's not even a top three feud in this series.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  It would be amazing if like as tip off was starting, like a cage match cage came down and it was just Dillon Brooks and Draymond in the middle. And it was like, we're going to settle this right now, brother.

• 5:55Bill Simmons?

  I had a couple Warriors fans in my life who were very upset at me because Mahoney and I did a podcast after the Lakers Warriors game and both of us were like, that was really interesting. The Warriors really seemed like they have a handle on a Lakers matchup. We liked what we saw. Like, that team makes sense to us as a win multiple rounds. And then after that Clippers game, I expressed real concern like that, that, that they didn't totally look like they knew who they were again. And Zach and I talked about that on his pod on Monday. I didn't even know about the Kaminga benching until the next day. I thought he was hurt. And it just seems like they punted on Kaminga. And this is Rob, a different team than they were when we did that Lakers Warriors pod where I thought Kaminga, I think he brings

• 6:40Bill Simmons?

  them something extra athletically, physically, just as a bigger body. They're playing Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James against Houston.

• 6:52Bill Simmons?

  Who has a bunch of physical wings, it just seem, and they're going to play a big lineup. It just seems like you need them, but the Warriors are done with them. And now I feel like they seem really small in this series. This is a classic small ball, big ball kind of matchup. I'm way more worried about them than I was two weeks ago. Is that recency bias or what do you think it is?

• 7:10Speaker 01

  I think they've kind of always been that team and they've, they've shown some of those limitations as far as, you know, how much do you trust Golden State in the half court? The good news is probably you trust the Rockets less in terms of executing their half court offense. And so this matchup works for them, but I agree with you. They're very small. The Kuminga element is such a, a, such a perfect encapsulation of the Warriors, who I think at every turn have prioritized rowing in the same direction, philosophical alignment as opposed to, oh, what's like the other counter element that we can bring in to give us a different speed, a different punch? Other coaches, other teams, other structures might welcome a Jonathan Kuminga type under those circumstances.

• 7:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  But also is he, is he really the answer? You know, if you're, if you're struggling with a LeBron or you're struggling with a Luca or one of these teams that have big wings at any point in the playoffs. If you're struggling with Tari Eason, for that matter, is Jonathan Kuminga really the solution? I'm, I'm still a little skeptical of that, even though I respect the talent.

• 8:05Bill Simmons?

  Or was he the best possible solution out of all the other available options they had? But they, you know, CR, you mentioned we, the Curry injury possibility, Butler, just the fact that it's an older team and you have this young, hungry team of pit bulls going against them that also has home court advantage. Uh, I can't figure this series out. What it, what do you, what do, what are you looking at on?

• 8:29Speaker 02

  You could tell me at the end of this series that, um, this was like a version of like the early great Thunder teams that came out and just ripped the Spurs apart. You know, like where they, they lost the first two and then they just, why wasn't that? They won the next four after losing two to the Spurs.

• 8:46Bill Simmons?

  In 2012, right?

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you could also tell me that this is too much too soon for Houston and that Wiley, Wise, Golden State are going to carve these guys to pieces. It feels like a, a real like. Clash of the Titans to me and in terms of like the two coaches are both awesome. I think that everything offsets itself. So there's like, you can't say that Draymond and Jimmy are going to mentally dominate the Rockets guys or like trick them too much because the Rockets have plenty of guys who are just like, I live this dark art shit too. So it's going to be like one of those like, I don't want to miss a single moment of this series. I'm sentimentally hoping for Warriors to advance just because love watching Steph in big, big moments and I feel like the Rockets are going to be around for the next five, six, seven years.

• 9:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's, there's some NBA historical stuff with this series that makes me nervous for the Warriors. One of the things that makes me nervous is Tuesday night, they got 75 points from Steph and Butler, right? That's about as good as those guys are going to play in a big game. And they barely beat a Memphis team that doesn't play defense, right? So you look at that and you're like, all right, that's your best case scenario. If you're not playing Kaminga, you have no other wild cards for points. Kind of need those guys. Maybe you'll have some, some variance with some threes.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:05Bill Simmons?

  For the most part, you need Butler and Curry to be between 60 and 65 points realistically. And Butler's not, you know, in the playoffs, he's been a little different as we've written about. But, you know, it's a lot of points. It's a lot of points to make up. So unless it's a rock fight from Houston's side, I really worry about the upside of Houston. If I'm a Golden State fan.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 10:30Bill Simmons?

  That there's, is there another level this team can go to? What is Ama and Thompson going to be like on a giant stage like this where it's like, hey, yo, shut down Curry. They make this your goal for two weeks. Take this guy out. What happens if they're just throwing big physical swings against Butler over and over again? And then the offensive rebounding and the big boy lineups, Shangoon, Draymond guarding, trying to guard Shangoon? This to me is a series where you could tell me they have those bets where you can bet on any outcome on FanDuel, like Houston in five is plus 790, Golden State in seven is plus 530. You could give me any of those bets. I'd be like, yeah, I could see it. Warriors sweep them? Sure,

• 11:11Bill Simmons?

  maybe. Rockets sweep them? All right. Warriors are minus 166 favorites, Rob. Did that surprise you? Because Rockets have home court.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  It doesn't surprise me. I think I take everything you're saying about the physicality, the athleticism, and I want to reinforce like both of these things can be true. The Rockets have had an amazing season that has been super fun to watch in terms of a young team that's just well ahead of the curve. But if you are a young team that's ahead of the curve, I don't want to see a like a Steph Curry in a series, a Jimmy Butler in a series, a Draymond Green in a series. Like, there's a level of collective savvy there, especially between those three, that has been so comfortable and so natural. Like, we've seen them run these just seamless three-man actions, as if they've been playing together for years. And that's where I think you get some of those random points, right? If those three guys are in concert, Quentin Post is gonna spring open for some threes. Gary Payton's gonna, you know, go baseline

• 12:04Speaker 01

  for some dunks and get some cuts. Like, you're gonna get random points out of that stuff, because the Rockets eventually are gonna freak out. And so, it doesn't surprise me that the Warriors are favored, despite being, you know, the undercard in the series. I just think there's so much respect for them, and there's so much even sentimental value, as you were saying, Chris. Like, a lot of us kind of want to see it, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of bettors kind of want to see it.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't want to be in a world where the Warriors made that Butler move a year too late, which is entirely possible. But I want to believe in another Warriors run. And it's kind of funny with the NBA where I, you know, my, the season of the team that I cheer for, like, exploded on takeoff, so I have been-

• 12:42Bill Simmons?

  What team is that? I forget. Who's your team?

• 12:43Speaker 02

  I have been sort of roving around, but like, this is almost like, previously on the Golden State Warriors, things were going fine. So I need you guys to level set for me. Like, I don't really remember the fourth best player on a team getting benched, uh, going into the playoffs.

• 13:01Bill Simmons?

  It's not good. Well, you mentioned some of these young guys, the Rockets, that we don't know what we're getting. The Warriors have guys who have never been in a situation where they've been counted on in a series like this. Guy Santos might have to play.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  You don't know Guy Santos's background. He could have played high-level competitive basketball anywhere.

• 13:19Bill Simmons?

  Moody, they actually really, really, genuinely need big stretches from. They need him to guard whoever is hot. Like, if Jalen Green's having a hot game, ultimately, I think it's probably gonna be him guarding that. They're gonna need people to protect the boards. There might, this might be a dust-off Kevon Looney series. You might see Jackson Davis, who we haven't seen in forever. I just, if, the thing that worries me the most out of all this shit, other than the home court, is I haven't seen a better nobody believes in us situation in around one in a while. You have this Rockets team that's had the two seed locked up for a week, that already is pissed off and has an edge and has a coach who could not be less afraid of Steph Curry and LeBron and has already talked shit to both of them in the last year. And

• 14:04Bill Simmons?

  he's gonna get these guys, I watched him do it in Boston. These, nobody believes in you, we're underdogs even though we don't have game seven. Steph is the favorite, you know, the favorite character in the league.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  He's gonna get all the calls, yeah.

• 14:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, everyone's against us, the refs are gonna be against us, we're gonna go, we're gonna have Golden State fans in our arena. Nobody thinks we can do this. I just feel like he's gonna be pushing that, pushing that. But the question for me, CR, who is the guy? There's gonna be three games in this series with three minutes left and now I have to match baskets with Curry and Butler. Who's it gonna be?

• 14:38Speaker 02

  I was gonna ask this and I was gonna ask about the dangers of Dillon Brooks thinking it's him.

• 14:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, you could go through, we could have a draft. It's like, what if Fred Van Vliet thinks it's him? What if Dillon Brooks thinks it's him? We could get ugly pretty fast.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jalen Green also will think it's him. This is kinda part of the Rockets conundrum, is they don't have a natural level set. Like, they don't have a place where when everything goes to shit, the ball finds a certain guy. It's a little bit clawing it out. And sometimes it is like Alpern Shangoon making ugly stuff sort of work and fighting through, like, fighting through pressure, fighting through good defense. I don't really trust their half-court offense at all in terms of the first shot. The question with them, as we kinda saw in that Memphis game for Golden State as well, is how many second chances are you giving up? Especially if they stick as big as the Rockets usually wanna play. Like, they, it may not be, it may not matter if Fred Van Vliet shoots 36% from the field if you're just constantly getting second opportunities.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Bill, will you give me the money to go to GoDaddy and register a site called hethoughtitwashim.com? And every night after one of these games, I just put up a picture of the Rocket who thought it was him?

• 15:46Bill Simmons?

  It's Jack Landau. Didn't expect to see him.

• 15:50Bill Simmons?

  I was trying to think of what the narrative, it's a fun exercise when you're trying to think of what's going to happen to just think what the narratives would be after the series. And what we last, what's leading a podcast title, you know, what they're talking about on First Take. With the Golden State, the ones are easy, like, oh, my God, Steph did it again.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:10Bill Simmons?

  Wow. They just beat a team that that was definitely better than them. Oh, my God, playoff Jimmy, the whole thing.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Is that want for that moment of like, the Warriors are back, it's another Steph run? Is that a healthy thing for us? Like, I struggle with that of like, do, are clinging to guys like Steph or LeBron? Are we clinging to them in the way that I'm clinging to like Tom Cruise jumping out of a jet? Like, is it coming at the cost of something?

• 16:33Speaker 02

  I'm ready for Austin Butler. You know what I mean? Like, I'm ready for-

• 16:37Speaker 01

  That's on Ben Thompson, I think.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  I'm, I, for, for as bad as it might be for ratings or for narratives, I'm excited at the prospect of new blood. You know, people might be like, who the hell wants to watch Houston, OKC in the Western Conference Finals? Like, I think it would be pretty awesome.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would love that.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. But from a narrative standpoint, I think the guys that could come out of it from Houston's side are Shingun.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:59Bill Simmons?

  And clearly Thompson, which I think there's a disparity now between the people that actually give a shit about basketball and watch it. A lot of them work for us and they're, it's to say, hey, have you seen Thompson? This guy's incredible. It's, you're not breaking any new ground. But there's a whole level of casual fans that I don't think have any idea what's going on with him, how athletically, how different he is. There are some people that voted for him for Defensive Player of the Year, have him in the top three. I had him second team all defense. It made me rethink, like, did I, did I fuck that up? But in person, it's unbelievable. And what he did to Steph a week ago, or a week and a half ago now, it was notable.

• 17:42Bill Simmons?

  All right. So we have that as the most unpredictable ready for anything series.

• 17:47Bill Simmons?

  The other one I'd put in that category, guys, is Pacers Bucks with Dane playing.

• 17:53Bill Simmons?

  This Pacers team that has looked awesome for the last three months, basically, right? They, the, if you look at the conference odds, they're 28 to one to win the East. And I think those odds are nuts. I think those odds should be way lower because they are gonna play, if they beat Milwaukee, they're playing Cleveland in round two. And I, I think they could throw some haymakers at Cleveland. I just think 28 to one, like if you consider, like if they beat Milwaukee and now you have to beat Cleveland, maybe something happens to Boston. Maybe there's an injury. They're better than a 28 to one to win the East. Dane playing now, I think is gonna screw up the odds and make people think Milwaukee has a chance. Giannis is the best player in the series. Um, CR, why don't people believe in the Pacers yet?

• 18:34Speaker 02

  I don't think they've gotten a chance to watch them. I think this is like a good corollary, maybe even to the Rockets where your difference between I watch national games and kind of keep up on pods versus I am out here just getting deep into Nemhard tape is pretty, pretty wide gap. And I would probably say that I'm a little bit in the former camp. So it's like, I, I, I know everything that has gone on with the Bucks this season. They are getting Portis back as well. Is that right? I don't know.

• 19:03Bill Simmons?

  He's back. Yeah, he came back the last couple of things this season.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  But like, look, I just think that it would be so funny if the Pacers just got like a weird slip and slide track back to the Eastern Conference Finals again. And that this was like a sneaky great team. I do think best player in the series has gotta be Giannis. And I still think I'm kind of leaning that way.

• 19:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I mean, the Dame element is- So that's your take, Giannis is the best guy in the series?

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Well, you want a big picture. I'm also not a cardiologist. Like, I don't know what's going on with Dame's, like, this blood clot thing.

• 19:38Bill Simmons?

  It did make me a little nervous. I was like, no, now he's fine.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:41Bill Simmons?

  Thing went away. It was, it was miraculous. But yeah, it's, it's definitely a, a mark. Do you think Indiana's underrated or properly rated, Rob?

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Underrated, almost perpetually, but I think some of that is the struggling out of the gate earlier in the season, the skepticism that Chris is talking about in terms of, you know, like their playoff run last year, I think felt so fluky to a lot of people based on the injuries in the field, based on some of the opportunities in front of them.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  It felt blazery, yeah.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  It felt a little blazery, I think that's fair, but I also think they seized every opportunity in front of them, and I think they've continued to do that and really righted the ship, not just offensively but defensively. So I am happy to be neck deep in Andrew Nemhard tape and to be an advocate for the Pacers here on a national platform. I think they've been really, really good, think they're better than most people realize, and I think ultimately more balanced than most people realize between the depth and the defense that they've played over the back part of the season. They're just a really good team, top to bottom.

• 20:30Bill Simmons?

  My biggest issue with them is how stupid they are at the end of games sometimes.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:35Bill Simmons?

  They're my number one draft pick for, I can't believe you guys just lost that game. They had to have been the number one team that you would say that about this year. And I was looking at like some of the odds with them, like to sweep the Bucks, it's plus 920. That's insane, they're not going to sweep the Bucks. They're better than the Bucks. They could just put four awesome games together and Giannis could have his 35 and 20 in any game and they could still beat them if they shot well. I think there's too much three-point variance with them. The Bucks are plus 490 to win in six and plus 540 to win in seven. And the scenario that would scare me if I was a Pacers fan is you lead the series and you're like, how the fuck did we lose that series? We were up nine in game one, we turned

• 21:18Bill Simmons?

  the ball over three times, all of a sudden the Bucks are down two and Dame hits a three and we just blew the game. They do this shit over and over again. And this is one of those, I don't know if I'm even touching this series from a gambling standpoint. I don't know what to expect. I don't really want to bet against Giannis because Rob, he seems like he's, he has like been pushed to the edge. He's John Wick, my dog has died.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you can't tell whether it's Keanu Reeves being like, I keep getting injured on these movies, this needs to end.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Or if he's like, you fucking woke up the Baba Yaga, I'm back, you know, like I'm here to take my cornerback.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  And like, that's where I think the Dame return is such a huge deal. It completely changes the matchup. It also changes it from, I am a battered man who had to carry this team over the finish line for the back part of the season. I'm dragging like Ryan Rollins on offense to make this thing work.

• 22:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  And now you have potentially a really potent shot maker returning to the field. I thought before the Pacers were going to win in a fairly short series. Like I probably, I picked Pacers in five, thinking Dame was not going to play. Him coming back at some point buys them time. I just don't think they have enough kind of like secondary and tertiary answers. Like Dame, in whatever state he's in, is going to be out of shape, out of rhythm, coming back into it. Already has had kind of a weird season in terms of the actual impact he's making on the game. And beyond him, you're like, I'm really living and dying with Kyle Kuzma here. And that's not something that I like to do personally, but live your life.

• 22:45Bill Simmons?

  I think that was a, was that a Michael Mann movie in the eighties?

• 22:50Speaker 01

  To live and die in Kuzma?

• 22:53Bill Simmons?

  I am, I'm probably going to lean Pacers by the time it comes to gut check time for when to make a bet. Because two reasons. It's impossible to overstate how involved Kevin Porter is in the future of the Bucks right now.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Jesus Christ.

• 23:09Bill Simmons?

  They were really, really relying on him. And I think they actually need him to beat Indiana. And that is such a wild card for so many different reasons. And he also needs the ball and, you know, to integrate Dame back into that. And there's Porter, that's one thing. The other thing is something you mentioned about Dame, Rob. The, uh, the fact that he, you know, he hasn't played basketball in three weeks. This was always kind of a bad matchup for him because the Pacers love to pressure 94 feet.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:35Bill Simmons?

  And they love to just bug people and make them work to bring it up. And it's like, oh, you're going to have Giannis bring the ball up or we're going to, we're going to guard him almost the whole court. And I think they're going to try to put miles on Dame. And I think you're asking a lot for him to just be like, hey, I know you haven't played in a month. I know you're on this blood, blood thinner medication. Oh, by the way, we're going to be pressuring you this whole game and attacking you on defense. It's a lot. It would be like heroic if they won the series. Cause them. So I, the safe pick is, is Indy here. And that's why the line is what it is.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  Yes. The heroic language that reminds me of in, in Shams' report about Dame coming back. Amazing colon. It was very like the language of the blood thinner thing, which is amazing, is very impressive. I have no idea how he's medically cleared to play. Uh, the framing of it from Shams, with all due respect, was a little bit like Trump's annual physical to me. That was the kind of vibe I was getting about like, everything's great.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Healthiest man in America.

• 24:29Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  4.5% body fat.

• 24:33Bill Simmons?

  Narratives coming out of this one, CR. If Milwaukee loses, we're just on the clock now for Yanis trade stuff. That's it. Is that, maybe that should be another godaddy.com purchase for you.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Has Yanis asked out yet? Dot com. Um, yeah, but like, you know, listening to you over the last couple of days, you and Zach on, on Zach's pod, like it is sort of starting to get a little difficult to imagine these massive star trades unless it's your problem from my problem.

• 24:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  So I do wonder, let's just say, like, do, do you have a Phoenix Milwaukee, like crisis swap? Is there, is there something in there that you could do? I don't know, but these guys are also are going to leverage, like use their leverage and control their destination to some extent. So I'm trying to, it's hard to go into the trade machine and be like, oh yeah, well, obviously you just do this for Yanis. I know that there's the rumors about him wanting to go to New York and stuff like that, or even the broader New York, like it doesn't matter the borough, but I, I think we'll learn a lot from this playoff series.

• 25:33Bill Simmons?

  CR, don't step on my podcast in 15 days when I go through all the possible teams, please. No, I, my money would be on Brooklyn or the Knicks because you talk about how hard it is to match the salaries. There's a Towns, Yanis, like very easy flip you could do. Sadly, the Knicks have nothing else to throw in the trade, but you know, he's probably going to pick the trade, but I would bet on Brooklyn if I had to, because I think. Brooklyn's sitting there with a lot of assets and some other moves they can pieces they can put together.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Well, that's always worked out for them in the past.

• 26:06Bill Simmons?

  I just don't want to read another Kevin Durant. Well, I don't want to read another Kevin Durant. He's, let's just put him on the Timberwolves like next year unless somebody can figure out the part where the Suns are going to be like, cool, sign and trade for Randall. Sign us up. That's, oh, and you have no picks? That sounds great, too. So we'll just get Julius Randall and Rob Dillingham for KD? Great. Let's, let's talk to my favorite, favorite series.

• 26:34Bill Simmons?

  Nuggets Clippers.

• 26:37Bill Simmons?

  A line that has moved dramatically. The Clippers are now favored. Minus 118 favorites. Denver in five is plus 620. Clippers in five is plus 680. I think it's going longer than five. Denver is six, plus 570. That would mean they won, they won in LA. Clippers in six is plus 350. And then if you think it's going seven, which would be in Denver, plus 410 for Denver, plus 570 for LAC. And that, none of us are allowed to talk about the Kawhi's been hurt every year in the playoffs and you have to factor that in. We all know. Rob, feels like a long.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:17Bill Simmons?

  Awesome. Incredible Spurs Clippers 2015 ish series to me. And I, as I've said a million times, I think the Clippers are the second best team in the West. I think they're a real threat. And I think if Jokic can beat them, this would be way up there with anything he's done basketball wise.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  I mean, that's kind of why I don't want to overindex on that Clippers Warriors game too much because the Clippers just became one of the toughest matchups for basically every team in the Western Conference field over a matter of like five weeks. They're a really tough Jokic matchup like Zoo plays him pretty well. I think gives them a chance to play it. Honestly, if they want to try to do that, and I suspect they will. This feels like a temperature check series to me on how you feel about Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Jr.

• 28:03Bill Simmons?

  Oh, like long term?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Long term, long term in particular, but even in within this series, like we know Denver's depth is an issue. We know that they're not like, once they go, you know, beyond their seventh guy, even sometimes their sixth guy, to be honest with you, things can get dicey. But if Jamal Murray isn't fully healthy and he's kind of inching his way back and more or less playoff Jamal Murray, they're going to have problems. And if Michael Porter Jr. has those games where he's a little spotty and the shot isn't hitting and all of a sudden he has 11 points in a mostly ineffectual game, that's a huge problem for Denver against this Clippers team that all of a sudden just has all of the pieces to put it together.

• 28:36Bill Simmons?

  You didn't talk about their bench.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  I'm trying to talk around it. I'm trying to be nice.

• 28:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's going to be the top five guys on the Nuggets are going to have to play 38 to 41 minutes a game.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:47Bill Simmons?

  And I think Jokic is going to have to be in the low 40s for them to like every second he's out of the game is going to be a disaster for them. What do you see narrative got Chris Ryan?

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm very interested to see Adelman's first playoffs against Ty Lou. It's probably the best team I have ever seen switch coaches this late into a season. And does that give them a spark? Does that give them any like tactical wrinkles? And how much can Lou think on his feet and negate that? Cause he's probably one of the best in the league along with Spoelstra doing stuff like that. The Joker talk towards the end of the season of like, what did he say? Like a caged beast is the most dangerous animal or whatever. Like, I'm like, let me watch this in slow motion, dude. I just want to like, watch back cuts all day long. I'm so excited for that. But Adelman under the lights is like a really interesting question. And like whether he does something different than the, than the Malone teams we've been

• 29:42Speaker 02

  seeing over the last couple of post seasons.

• 29:45Bill Simmons?

  What prestige TV character does Adelman look like? To me, he looks like the embattled PR person in succession who's getting screamed at by Kendall.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  I have to give them a statement. Yeah.

• 29:55Bill Simmons?

  Kendall, we gotta tell them something. And he's just getting berated.

• 30:00Bill Simmons?

  If Kawhi is healthy, I just think the Clippers are winning this series. As great as Jokic is, I think you can give him any stat line in this series. And I'm not sure it matters. They have so many people to throw at Murray. This is a nightmare series for Murray. Just let's start there. And we're seeing a lot of Chris Dunn and we're seeing a lot of Nuggets welcoming Chris Dunn to shoot from wherever he wants.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 30:24Bill Simmons?

  Go ahead. You can have that. But then he comes out. Let's go, hey, have you met Derek Jones Jr. yet? And I assume Batum's playing. Hey, have you met, have you met Nick Batum? Cause now you're gonna have him for four minutes. And I just think it's gonna be really hard for them to get on track. They're gonna use all the Westbrook minutes against them.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I forgot about that.

• 30:44Bill Simmons?

  And, uh, and then Zubot's like, here's the other thing. Jokic doesn't wanna get in foul trouble in these games. And if he's gonna guard Zubot's, the Clippers are really good when they throw it to him. Teams over, always overreact. They always send a second guy. And if they try to guard him straight up with Joker, he's gonna, he's gonna try to put some, some heat on him. They're also a really good offensive rebounding team. Jokic is the only guy who rebounds on this team. Nobody else gets a rebound. It's basically just him.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Aaron Gordon erasure, but largely I agree with you.

• 31:15Bill Simmons?

  Like if they need a big rebound, he's usually the one getting it. So now he's gotta keep a zoo. And then, then there's a separate Kawhi piece.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Can I get a temperature check on Big Game James? Under the hot lights?

• 31:28Bill Simmons?

  And this is now you're, now you're going case for Denver. Best player in the series. We've seen this James Harden play before.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  We have.

• 31:37Bill Simmons?

  And Kawhi Leonard, just when you think it's going great, it's like the dun dun. It's like in Presumed Innocent when they go, what was that dumb episode?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  One extra twist.

• 31:46Bill Simmons?

  Heart attack. Next week, is he gonna wake up?

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Oh, he's fine. It was just a dream.

• 31:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it was, he's okay. Uh, but Kawhi is the dun dun cliffhanger.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:56Bill Simmons?

  Just waiting to happen.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  With Harden too, honestly, like Harden did not have great games against the Nuggets this year, but Kawhi didn't play in any of them, if I believe so. Having Kawhi on the floor dramatically changes every matchup, changes the defensive priorities. And in particular, I like to tie this into what you were saying, Bill, about Jokic and foul trouble. It's not just like battling Zoo on the block. It's not just fighting him, fending him off for rebounds. It's you're going to be in a ton of pick and roll all night because James Harden is going to have the ball. That is going to be his primary use. Like you're going to have to hang in that and not get too handsy along the way. And every foul for Jokic could mean a lot in the same way that every foul for Zoo could too.

• 32:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, and Kendall Roy's PR guy, who I think seemed like he did a decent job in those last couple of games, but he's going against, I think, one of the best four or five coaching staffs in the league. And it a staff that is really committed to defense and disciplined on what they want to do. And is just really smart. Everyone's on the same page. They'll bench dudes that, you know, don't look great. They'll take them out. We didn't mention the Ben Simmons piece of this, Chris.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, some of my faves.

• 33:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what your relationship is with the other BS at this point, but.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  I'm going to get estranged.

• 33:07Bill Simmons?

  I have strange might be the answer.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  We're in a real wish him well zone.

• 33:12Bill Simmons?

  Oh, the sarcastic wish him well.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:15Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm excited for Ben. I'm excited for.

• 33:19Bill Simmons?

  Which excited, what, what part are you excited about Ben when they go to zone and he doesn't know what to do? If they do hack a Ben, if he takes a shot, what are you excited about?

• 33:30Speaker 02

  Ben getting hack a Ben shooting in front of the wall in Inglewood, like shooting in front of the, the, the crowd wall. I'm excited for that.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 33:38Bill Simmons?

  I, my guess would be he gets phased out of this series as it goes along. Because I think there's too many unplayable things about him. The other thing with, with all the rest, Zubats always plays big minutes anyway.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:50Bill Simmons?

  And it's gotten to the point with him where if he's, if he's, uh, you know, if he's out of the lineup, you really feel it.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  And they get away with playing Batum at the five sometimes, especially like the non Jokic minutes are such a wild card in terms of what kinds of fake centers you can throw out there. I don't see a reason why that has to work that way.

• 34:10Bill Simmons?

  One other thing, guys, I gotta mention this. They really have a home court advantage now, the Clippers. There's real energy in that arena. Denver's not gonna have a lot of fans there, but it's, it's not swinging games. We're not, it's never gonna be the eighties again where you could just put five loud people behind the bench and just have them berate people.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  But they were the only five people there. Yeah.

• 34:30Bill Simmons?

  Right. Now it's, you know, there, there's just a nice energy to it. So for talking narratives, oh, go.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Oh, I wanted to ask you a question, whether you saw any parallels between the Denver situation and the Milwaukee situation. Not that Joker would ever ask out, but like, how different could this Nuggets team look next year if this is a first round exit?

• 34:49Bill Simmons?

  I think you're looking at Porter in that case, right, Rob? I think that would be the first piece, cuz he's-

• 34:53Speaker 01

  I think Murray could be on the table, too.

• 34:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that would surprise me.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Different financial commitment, for sure, but I think, I think if the Nuggets lose, and granted, this is a series they well could lose, like a four, five in which both are quality Western Conference teams. It's, it's not like a disgrace to lose to the Clippers, but clearly this is a team operating with incredible urgency that sees some pretty dramatic changes in its future. Why not trade Murray or Porter as a part of that if you think the outcome is disappointing? If you think those guys can't take you anywhere, then you gotta start, yes, start somewhere with the actual roster.

• 35:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cuz when- Well, if you can't get through this series, that, that should tell you, gotta do something here.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Well, cuz when they fired Booth and Malone, you could read that as white flag, we're getting ready for next season. I have my eye on another GM who might become available soon or is in, in the mix, whoever, you know, and coach, and the same thing for coach. And then I think they kinda had a little bit of a dead cat bounce where they're like, no, we're not dead yet. We're fine, you know, and like, we're, we're, we're still, we're still frisky and it's still Jokic, Jokic. Uh, so it's kinda weird. It's like, I, on one hand, I'm like, are you guys playing out the string or is this like a-

• 36:05Bill Simmons?

  No, I, I, see, I don't think they were doing that at all. I think this was bad for a while, and I think they wanted to do it a couple of different times and just, they would just win a game, right, when they were about to do it. And, and I just think they stared at it and stared at it. And at some point, we're like- This is actually going to sink our season if we don't do something.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Everything's coming up crunchy, man. Arsenal just beat Real Madrid and then the Champions League. Got the magic touch.

• 36:30Bill Simmons?

  So for narratives for the Denver side, it'll be like, well, Jokic, I thought you think he's the MVP and you couldn't even get out of round one. Like, I promise you, if they lose to the Clippers, Jokic will not, there will be no shit on his, on his feet. It won't, it will not be him. They will, the Clippers will win despite Jokic.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  He's one of the best playoff performers in modern NBA, if not overall NBA history.

• 36:52Bill Simmons?

  And he also just had one of the best offensive seasons in the history of the league.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:57Bill Simmons?

  I think there's the Murray Porter question from the Nuggets side, then who's going to come in, all that stuff. On the Clipper side, if they don't win, then it's a James Harden, he fooled us again. If Kawhi can't play seven games in a row or six games in a row, he fooled us again. I think those would be the two things that came out of it. Let's take a, let's take a break. Wanted to mention one other series to you and then we'll, I'll do my NBA awards for you guys. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. We're in the playoffs, baby. From three pointers to steals to assists, FanDuel has so many ways to bet your favorite player props. You can bet series prices, you can live bet, you can do all kinds of things, but you can also do live prop bets into a same game parlay for a chance to win big.

• 37:42Bill Simmons?

  You'll get started on FanDuel right now. If you join, the $250 in bonus bets if your first $5 bet wins. So visit FanDuel.com/BS, my initials, to get in on all the NBA playoff action. We got play in on Friday night and then the actual series coming. FanDuel.com/BS for your shot at $250 in bonus bets. Make every moment more with FanDuel, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. You must be 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC. First online real money wager only, $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued has non-d withdrawable bonus bets, which expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.

• 38:26Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is almost here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmigiana delivered. I love chicken parmigiana. A cabana, that's a no, but a banana, that's a yes. A nice tan? Sorry, nope. But a box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

• 39:10Bill Simmons?

  All right, we didn't talk Lakers, T Wolves. I'm really proud of us. On ESPN, they would have just led with that. We could have done a GOAT conversation about LeBron and then done that whole thing. We don't have to do that here.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  We led with Steph instead, you know, we're much no more.

• 39:26Bill Simmons?

  We did the Independent Spirits Award version of the same segment.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  Aubrey Plaza was hosting this podcast.

• 39:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Adam Scott came in. Do you give the T Wolves a chance in this series, Rob?

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I think there's a really, there's a real possibility, and I'm not willing to stake all of these claims at once, but there's a real possibility that all three of these are upsets, that every non OKC series in the West is an upset. I'm not go, I'm not just like zooming past the Wolves at all. I think the Lakers understandably, given just the collective brain power between Luca and LeBron and the way that they really rip you apart over the course of seven games deserves a ton of respect and a ton of deference as we're kind of parsing out what's going to happen in this series.

• 40:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Ant is still pretty unguardable and you can pressure him and you can trap him and you can try to make him do difficult things. But this is a, a pretty capable, pretty deep team. They also require you to bet heavily on Julius Randall being good in the playoffs. They, they require you to really believe in Rudy Gobert's ability to hang in this matchup. I'm probably a little more bullish on that than most, but I just like.

• 40:27Bill Simmons?

  Hold on, wait a second. Why are you bullish on that?

• 40:30Speaker 01

  I don't think he's a train wreck. I think most of the time that Rudy Gobert gets dragged across the coals, it's mostly misplaced frustration at like perimeter people who can't guard anybody or matchups that happen for like three minutes of a game. But overall, he may not be always playing up to, to defensive player of the year standards. And frankly, he hasn't been that guy this year or last year really in, at all. He's kind of come down a level. But he's a good NBA player and he's a good player who has some leverage in a series like this. Like I think he will make. An impact on it.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Do you think it's an advantage, Rob, that Finch has introduced this idea that there's no sacred cows on this team? Early in the season where he's like, I might run this five out for the end, or I might run this five out. And it's like, just because of your rep, just because of the name on the back of the jersey, doesn't mean you're out here. All like, because you do quote unquote deserve it. It's who I think is the best matchup at the end of games. If he's been doing that all season, maybe Gobert is more emotionally prepared for eventualities where he's not on the floor. Because the Lakers are throwing something at the Wolves that that he doesn't suit, he's not suited for.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you hope that that's the case. And if as from a coaching perspective, you're right, you're doing kind of everything you can to prime your players for that possibility. Bottom line, your team has Anthony Edwards, Jaden McDaniels, Rudy Gobert, Julius Randall. Like, these are highly emotional players, if we're all being honest about the way that they operate and conduct themselves. They've had fights in huddles. They've punched things and gotten injured. Like, this is the core of your team. And you're going to ride and die with some of that emotion. And there's inevitably going to be a fallout during the really, really tough moments. But maybe you can get away with that for a series. Maybe you can get away with that for a couple of games at a time. I think you just have to kind of ride the right wave with it.

• 42:13Bill Simmons?

  I had a Minnesota fan try to zag with Gobert, and I appreciate it. I won't name who it was. But they were like, you know, everyone's talking about playing Gobert off the court. What about Gobert's high lobs? Who's contesting those on the Lakers? I was like, oh, I kind of like that one.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  He might play Jackson Hayes off the court.

• 42:30Bill Simmons?

  Who is like, who are the, who are the rim protectors on the Lakers? It's like, well, they don't really have some. And then the other point was that you can actually hide Gobert in this series a little bit more than people realize. Like, if Jackson Hayes is out there, he just stays with him. And if they're going to set picks where Jackson Hayes is the one setting the pick, good luck to you. And then when Rui's out there, he probably shades closer to Rui or Finney Smith. And does the thing that the Celtics do with Porzingis, where he's near the corner, but he can jump back in.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Play free safety, yeah.

• 43:01Bill Simmons?

  And I don't know, they were just a little more bullish on it than I thought. There's a best player in the series question with this series that's really fun. Where you're like, well, obviously Luca or LeBron. It's like, I don't know how obvious it is. Like, what if Edwards is just incredible? Edwards certainly thinks he's the best player in the series. There's some.

• 43:22Bill Simmons?

  You know LeBron's 40 years old. I feel like if you're gonna always talk about, well, what if Kawhi gets hurt? I still think we have to at least mention, well, what if a 40 year old guy playing really physical, awesome playoff games every two, three days? Like, are we counting on that for three rounds? I think that has to be mentioned. And then the targeting Reeves on defense, I think. The smarter teams have done it. The Lakers know it's coming. How much of that are they gonna do it? I think it's an awesome series. If you had to pick, who are you picking, Rob?

• 43:50Speaker 01

  I would pick the Lakers, but I think it's gonna be long. Like, I'm very tempted to pick like a Lakers in seven.

• 43:55Bill Simmons?

  CR, do you think Minnesota, you think they get 30% of the calls this series? 28%? Where would you put it?

• 44:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, what's the circuit breaker? What's the lowest amount of calls they could get before the NBA breaks? Uh, I think, I think 30 is a nice number. I'm, I'm, I'm going with Wolves.

• 44:13Bill Simmons?

  Go with the Wolves?

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:18Bill Simmons?

  It's an awesome series. I'll tell you this, the FanDuel line of Minnesota being a plus 156 underdog and the Lakers being almost two to one seems off to me because Minnesota has enough talent to hang with this. It, to me, this feels like a Lakers in seven.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  You've been, uh, watching Luka so closely over the last couple of weeks, Bill. Like, do you feel like he's got his head screwed on right for this? For the postseason?

• 44:41Bill Simmons?

  I liked what I saw from him last week, but I, I absolutely think one of Minnesota's game plans is gonna be to try to agitate him and annoy him and hope that he gets mad, hope that he gets technicals, hope that he gets into mano a mano stuff. I think, I, I just think he's shown some real immaturity on the court. Like, he, all the same stuff he's been doing the first seven years of his career, he still does. He still talks to people in the front row, all that shit. And I think Minnesota has a bunch of guys who love that.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:11Bill Simmons?

  You know? And the other thing with Minnesota is it's definitely an irrational confidence team. Right? They're not gonna be, nobody's gonna be scared. They're not gonna be, oh my God, we're playing in LA. Like, they're, they don't give a shit. They're not gonna care that celebrities are around the, uh, around the front.

• 45:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, this will be a good one. I forgot to mention with the Rockets series. And maybe with the Pistons Knicks, which is the last one I want to talk about quickly. I don't think kids should be allowed in the front row for either of those series.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  This is a great take.

• 45:40Bill Simmons?

  I think it has to be 12, 12 and up.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  You must be this tall.

• 45:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, if you're nine and under, you don't get to sit Knicks Pistons. I almost think that's like an NC 17 movie. You have to be 18 and older to sit in the front row.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  Child services should be called if you've got like a six year old.

• 45:56Bill Simmons?

  If you bring your six year old kid to Knicks Pistons and that kid gets trampled by Ron Holland during like a massive brawl. I don't feel sorry for you. I don't feel sorry that your kid broke his wrist when he's six years old. You should not be in the front row for that series.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  Counterpoint to this, that'll build character. Oh, there we go. And we're, we're, we're facing down a time in this country where people are going to maybe have to go back to the factories. And what better way to prepare you than by witnessing a massive brawl?

• 46:26Bill Simmons?

  If you're over 70 years old, stay out of the first row. Just warning you now.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  This is the thing. I don't know that there's an age at which you are safe from an Isaiah Stewart elbow. You know, like if it comes down to that, it really doesn't matter if you're a child. It doesn't matter if you're elderly. Like these guys are going to spill over and I, I respect the hell out of it.

• 46:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Cause I don't think you could rule out Lakers Wolves either for some sort of, some sort of feistiness, but Rockets Warriors. Clearly shit's going down in that series and the Rockets are going to hit Curry. They're going to hold him 50 feet from the basket on every screen. They're going to knock him down when he goes to the hoop. It's, it's, it's just going to be on.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Brooks is definitely yanking that guy's thumb. I mean, it is, it's going to be like, oh no.

• 47:06Bill Simmons?

  Of course. Pistons Knicks, any chance, Rob?

• 47:12Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a real climb. I think there's, there's places where the Pistons are going to have definite advantages. Like that, that's a matchup that really suits Cade. I think he's going to play great. I think overall the orchestration is going to be there. But keeping up with the Knicks and kind of the sheer firepower, what they're capable of with all of their guys out there is brutal. And I think even more brutal now, like they've had a weird season. They've been up and down. They haven't all been together. Like they've played a lot together, but in terms of the chemistry of that core five, hasn't been as scintillating as I might have hoped coming into the season. But then you get stretches where Brunson's out and OG Ananobe transforms into this totally different guy. Maybe there's a huge payoff for that, right? Maybe there's a payoff for those minutes where, you know, Towns is in foul trouble. Brunson has to leave the game for a bit or is just kind of being

• 47:56Speaker 01

  locked up in a certain matchup. Maybe Ron Holland is all or Asar Thompson's all up in his jersey for long stretches. And now it's the OG Ananobe show. And I think that's, that's something that the Pistons just don't have counters for is that that's sort of layered offensive threat.

• 48:09Bill Simmons?

  Great regular season story, CR.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:13Bill Simmons?

  I think this is probably where the train gets off and maybe they win one. I think Knicks in four at plus 520 or Knicks in five at plus 270. Those are probably two of my favorite bets. The one question I have with the Knicks, can Tibbs figure out a way to like, could Brunson end up with a minutes per game in this series of like 48.2? Like if there was like an overtime?

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:35Bill Simmons?

  Is, is all, are all five guys gonna be in the 40s every game? Because there's like two days off between games.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Brunson has to do halftime entertainment.

• 48:44Bill Simmons?

  Does he have to do the red?

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, he has to go out there and spin plates. I just want to say, I, I was always a big Kate Cunningham fan and I was really worried that his career was going to kind of get basically torpedoed by the institutional malaise of the Pistons. So to see this turnaround is really cool. I hope that everybody, because it's the Knicks, it's New York, there's going to be a ton of people watching this series, just inevitably, that it's a great platform and he goes off no matter what happens. I think the Pistons definitely get one at home and, and it's a feel good story. And I just, I think it's a cool platform to introduce a new start of the league.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:22Bill Simmons?

  Rob, are you watching institutional malaise on, on Paramount?

• 49:27Speaker 01

  You know, I thought it was a real slog mid-season. It just, it kind of lost me.

• 49:30Bill Simmons?

  I thought it was good to see Carla Gigno like trying again with one of the Wilson brothers.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  She's a lawyer who's just trying to make it work with.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  But Nicole Kidman's three-episode arc, I thought that was pretty good.

• 49:41Bill Simmons?

  We should create a video show for the Ringer-tv YouTube thing where we just list four shows and three of them are real and one is made up and then the viewers have to guess which one we made up. Cause I think it would be near impossible at this point. And Apple will have some shows where I'm just like, wow.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:01Bill Simmons?

  What is that? That was greenlit?

• 50:05Speaker 02

  There was a show that I heard about the other day called State of the Union with Chris O'Dowd and Rosamund Pike, and it's just about their marriage and Nick Hornby wrote it. And I was like, this feels like a poster in Seth Rogen's office in the studio.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:20Bill Simmons?

  Right. Yeah, the studio has almost, yeah, it's almost like made it even more noticeable.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:26Bill Simmons?

  Rob, are you a 1923 guy?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  I'm not. Should I be?

• 50:30Bill Simmons?

  Oh, wow.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Am I missing out?

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I, it's not my favorite Sheridan, but it's, it definitely ended with some fireworks.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  I prefer my Sheridan modern, if I'm being honest with you. I prefer, I prefer it with, you know, guns ablazing, but in a more modern setting, maybe a drug runner is involved, maybe not.

• 50:50Bill Simmons?

  I have season tickets now for Sheridan. That's where I've landed.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 50:55Bill Simmons?

  I really like 1923, but it's one of the all-time couple shows for my wife and I. My wife loves it. I have no idea why. And she loves shows set in the 1800s and 1900s because she feels like she really would have been an impactful person back then.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  What does an impactful person back then look like?

• 51:13Bill Simmons?

  She would have absolutely been able to defend the ranch with guns and, and would have been able to survive in the cold. She would have hit that train, the lady waiting for the train who was freezing dead. She's like, I would have made it. I would have been able to make it until the train showed up. Yeah. I would have died in the first episode.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  The median show for a couple is an interesting conversation. Like what show ticks three boxes each? I think.

• 51:35Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I think Presumed Innocent is a 10 out of 10 on that scale.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Friends and Neighbors right now for my wife.

• 51:40Bill Simmons?

  A hundred percent.

• 51:41Speaker 02

  Ticking equal boxes. Yeah.

• 51:44Bill Simmons?

  Just ham, hamming it up.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:46Bill Simmons?

  He's having a ham all time. Okay, playing games really quick. I, I picked Miami against Chicago and I think they're also gonna beat Atlanta and that line is only minus one. There's no case for the Hawks, is there, Rob?

• 51:59Speaker 01

  I, I mean, there's a case in that, other than what you may have been led to believe by the way that he just shellacked the Bulls. This team can't really score in most games and so I, I don't put it past them on any night to have like a 15-point quarter followed by a 13-point quarter.

• 52:16Bill Simmons?

  Who do you think Cleveland would rather play? Probably Atlanta, right?

• 52:18Speaker 01

  I don't think they care. I, I think they're probably, I mean, look, yeah, if given the choice, one of them is maybe a little less physically taxing than the other, but I don't think the Cavs are having a problem with either of those teams.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  You guys enjoying the play-in experience?

• 52:29Bill Simmons?

  I think they could dump the 9-10 pretty easily and we'd be good. I think we could go 7-8 and then loser plays 8-9, or we go 8-9 first.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:41Bill Simmons?

  They play the 7, some version of that. I, I just, although I guess Sacramento's still in,

• 52:49Bill Simmons?

  but it's, it's almost like they need the college football committee from the mid 80s to kind of step in and just be like, now we've decided Sacramento's not a 9-10 team.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  Sac fired their GM while they're still in?

• 53:01Speaker 01

  No, no, no, like they would be in.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Oh, they would be in. I see what you're saying, yeah.

• 53:05Bill Simmons?

  No, it's just, you know, you see those games. There was one good game out of four. I think they're probably hoping there's two good games out of four, so it's pretty tough.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  I think year to year, it's just impossible to know and so they keep the option open for the most possible good games and some junk is gonna filter in. Like, we're just gonna have to sit through it, I think.

• 53:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Um, CR, I know about three weeks ago, I heard through the grapevine, you and your financial team bought some Nico Harrison stock, the lowest possible level. You're like, I'm gonna bet on this guy, a lot of connections, did some great stuff in the shoe industry, made some good trades, got, pulled the Mavs to the finals last year. The stock's never been lower, I'm gonna invest. And then Dallas looks awesome last night in the play-in game. How are you feeling about your holdings?

• 53:55Speaker 02

  I'm the Charlie Munger of buying into front offices. Uh, I, I find it incredibly funny, with all due respect to our former, former colleague, Jason Gallagher, who's really going through it on social media about the, the Dallas situation.

• 54:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  It was just kinda like, of course they're gonna get into the playoffs and we're gonna keep having to talk about this. Um... I, I still think obviously it is historically bad trade, but it's AD is good. Yeah.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  I don't know. Nico Harrison said they were a championship level team for two and a half quarters. Like what more compelling evidence do you need?

• 54:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, I, my question is if they did, if they do, they're six and a half point underdogs in Memphis. And I, to me, that game's a toss up because I could just see Davis going nuts in that game. If they did get in the OKC thing, 1-8, and then Davis goes nuts in the first game. And it, it just, it's the most fun, random scenario. None of us would have expected like, oh my God, Dallas is up 2-1. And Nico's like, fuck all of you guys. I told you, if we had Kyrie, we'd be winning this thing.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  All the Mavs fans are wearing Joker masks and kind of like, oh, how are we supposed to feel?

• 55:06Bill Simmons?

  Who, Rob, who do you think OKC, I know they don't care either, but who would they rather play?

• 55:11Speaker 01

  I think they'd rather play Dallas. I think they'd rather play the team that basically doesn't have functional point guards. That's starting Najee Marshall out of necessity, that's running Brandon Williams out there, who's played relatively well. But there's like, there's a reason why when you play against anyone who's not the Kings and you're the Mavs, you struggle to get the ball anywhere it needs to go in the half court. They just like, don't have enough, not just spacing, but the floor balance is kind of busted. They don't have enough playmaking in general right now. I think that would have been the case even if Kyrie was healthy, to be honest with you, but it's especially true now.

• 55:41Bill Simmons?

  Lou Dort's gonna be like, I, I don't know who to guard. Who do you want me to shut down? All these guys are mediocre.

• 55:51Bill Simmons?

  I want Dallas to keep winning because I think it would be hilarious. But yeah, this worked out unbelievably well for OKC and this is why you get the one seed and this is why I did. All right. Before we go, I wanted to do, I wanted to do my awards that I handed in on Tuesday.

• 56:06Bill Simmons?

  Not expecting, I thought I had a little more time.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  I thought so too.

• 56:10Bill Simmons?

  But they asked for it on Tuesday. I think they didn't want the play in game. So I'm just gonna, I'm gonna tell you what I did and you guys, I don't think, I, neither of you guys know anything I did, right?

• 56:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 56:21Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 56:22Speaker 02

  I, I can guess based on some of your more recent podcast appearances.

• 56:28Bill Simmons?

  Coach of the year.

• 56:31Bill Simmons?

  Bickerstaff 3.

• 56:34Bill Simmons?

  Kenny Atkinson 2.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 56:38Bill Simmons?

  Mark Dagnall, number 1.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Okay. Dagnall's been great.

• 56:41Bill Simmons?

  Who'd you have, Rob?

• 56:42Speaker 01

  I did Atkinson 1, Ime Udoka 2, Bickerstaff 3. But Dagnall's been great. Ty Lou has been great. I think Dagnall in particular, balancing all the injuries that OKC had this season, maintaining an elite, high effort, high intensity defense over the entire course of the run and helping their young players get better. That's just not something that a lot of coaches can do all at once. So he deserves a ton of credit.

• 57:06Bill Simmons?

  I was always impressed watching them, how well-prepared they were, how hard they played, and how they could basically sustain any injury and it was somehow okay. But the way the young players have grown on that team, and it's got to the point where the trade deadline, it's like, I don't know, Aaron Wiggins is good. Why would they, why do they need like a swing man? Why do they need Deandre Hunter? Like, they have Aaron Wiggins. I just thought he did a great job. And I think sometimes we default toward, it's gotta be this, you know, like a Bickerstaff or like a JJ, the Lakers only improved by three wins.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  It's almost most improved team becomes coach of the year, kind of thing.

• 57:42Bill Simmons?

  And it's, and I always felt like that was stupid. So anyway, I have that. Clutch Player of the Year.

• 57:49Bill Simmons?

  Jason Tatum, number 3. Look up the stats.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 57:52Bill Simmons?

  No. Jalen Brunson, he's still only 19 years old, Chris. Jalen Brunson 2. I couldn't believe how easy this was for me because I actually watch basketball. Jokic is the number one clutch player of the year. Does anyone fucking watch the Nuggets? He does everything at the end of games for them, everything possible. How is he not clutch player of the year?

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Because this award is kind of bogus.

• 58:17Bill Simmons?

  That's a ridiculous award. They should get rid of it.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  It's reliant on how you parse 12 shots. Like, that's what the clutch player of the year is.

• 58:25Bill Simmons?

  We talked about other possible things that could, Russell and I, that could go in for this award, because I hate the Kia Clutch Player of the Year, and I think it's stupid. But it could be like the, an award like the Kia, "I'd really given up on you, but you kind of won me back over," Player of the Year. Like, I really think they should have something like that, or, "I really thought you sucked, and it turns out you don't."

• 58:48Speaker 01

  How do you think Kia would feel about that?

• 58:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, yeah.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  Does that fit on a poster for them?

• 58:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Sixth Man of the Year, Ty Jerome, third, Peyton Pritchard, second, and Malik Beasley, first. And I, I can't believe Pritchard was favored for this award all year. I just, what Beasley did all year, clearly the sixth man to me. He didn't start really ever. He scored 16 a game. Kirk Goldsberry did a thing on my pod about how he's basically Klay Thompson for them this year.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  He's been really good.

• 59:18Bill Simmons?

  And I just thought it was a no-brainer. Who'd you have for that, Rob?

• 59:21Speaker 01

  I had Pritchard. I think, I think Pritchard does a lot of what Beasley does at a more or less similar level. Not quite the three-point volume. What Beasley's doing is pretty, pretty exceptional in that way, but a great three-point shooter himself, plus holds his own defensively.

• 59:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Plus drives offense off the dribble. I just think he's more versatile than Beasley at the end of the day.

• 59:41Bill Simmons?

  CR, my thinking was, if Pritchard disappeared for 25 games, it would suck, but the Celtics would have been fine. If Beasley disappeared, I think the Pistons would have been in major, major, major trouble, because they actually ran real offense for him throughout the game.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Also, if you'd picked Pritchard, most people would have thrown their phones into a river by now.

• 59:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, look, man. I, I really care about these awards. I try to do the right thing, even if it's at the expense of, "Pritch, please."

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  Please tell me that's not a thing.

• 1:00:10Bill Simmons?

  Ah, that's t-shirt in Boston, yeah. Can look for it.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Tastefully done, I'm sure.

• 1:00:14Bill Simmons?

  Pritch, please is the hottest, hottest-selling t-shirt in Boston.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Not a lot of Pritch, please shirts at the Coolidge.

• 1:00:20Bill Simmons?

  I can get you one, CR.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Thanks, please. I'm a medium.

• 1:00:23Bill Simmons?

  Rookie of the Year, I want Castle 1, Reese Sche 2, ED 3. I don't, Castle did enough, I feel like, you know, wasn't, yeah, he was, he was out there. Any, any arguments, CR?

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  No, I mean, the Castle thing is just so exciting to imagine him with a healthy Wemby, Fox, full offseason, and then maybe an addition that they make in the offseason. Like, it's really cool. He's like a perfect winning basketball player on that, on that team.

• 1:00:50Bill Simmons?

  I'll skip the rookie for second team. Most improved.

• 1:00:54Bill Simmons?

  I did Kamara on Portland number three.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:00:58Bill Simmons?

  I thought he was stunning.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  I mean, he's been great, but he's kind of, he's kind of always been great at those things, though.

• 1:01:04Bill Simmons?

  I get, yeah, I, I really took this one seriously and looked at everybody's because I wanted to do Reeves and I looked at last year's Reeves versus this year and it's like, was he really improved? He was good last year. Same thing for Cade. Kamara became, I think, a guy that the other team was like, fuck.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  That is true.

• 1:01:20Bill Simmons?

  They have this guy. Oh, man, this is gonna be a hard night for me. So I had him three. I had Christian Brown, too, just getting thrown in the KCP thing. And then I thought Daniels was the clear number one. Who'd you have number one, Rob?

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  I had Zoo, actually, number one.

• 1:01:33Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I looked at him. I, I just felt like he was good last year and then went up a level. But he's coming up later.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  He was good, but like, I wouldn't have put him anywhere close to all defense last year, for example. I thought he was really solid, but now he's all defense. Now he's putting up massive numbers. Now he's still one of the most impactful rebounders in the league, but has taken like an even bigger jump in terms of what that means to a team. I just think he's been incredible.

• 1:01:56Bill Simmons?

  I wanted to put Quentin Grimes number one for CR because he almost ruined CR's draft pick.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  My god, dude.

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  Every night it was like, I was at home in Philly, watching a run of games that they had, and he would honestly be going nuclear and you'd be like, alright, Quentin, roll an ankle. Come on, you know, like, like, you've done enough. You hit your over or whatever the hell is going on.

• 1:02:18Bill Simmons?

  Anything?

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:20Bill Simmons?

  Defensive player of the year.

• 1:02:23Bill Simmons?

  Number three, Draymond Green.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm feeling better. I'm worried, I'm worried where you're going, but I have hope.

• 1:02:30Bill Simmons?

  Number two, Evan Mobley.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  Oh, fuck. We couldn't get Evan Mobley number one?

• 1:02:35Bill Simmons?

  Number one, Lou Dort.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Should have known. Lou Dort is great.

• 1:02:40Bill Simmons?

  I looked at it every which way and I thought I was going, I thought it was really hard. And by the way, there's no Wemby this year. So this was like an Oscars year where you just take out Titanic out of 1997 and then try to figure out what best picture is.

• 1:02:55Bill Simmons?

  I just thought Dort was the best guy I saw in person this year, and I think he wrecked. The most games that I saw, as good as Mobley is, Mobley like very looked like facsimile KG a lot of the times and can guard all these different things. I thought what Dort did to some of the best players in the league was unbelievable. And I saw it in person a couple of times. Harden wanted no part of him.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  No, no one does.

• 1:03:19Bill Simmons?

  No, it's just like they, he's just like this, he, he's like Rivas on the Jets, just like, all right, I'm going to take that guy. You guys worry about what you're going to do. This guy's not doing anything today. And I just thought he was awesome. I voted for Smart a couple of years ago, which became a controversial pick after the and it's a lot of the same stuff. Like, I just think perimeter guys who can make sure the other best guy in the team doesn't hit 30 in the game, which he had a two and a half month stretch where nobody scored 30 on him. Um, so I had him. So Rob, you had Mobley?

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  I had Mobley, yeah. Bill, did you, where did you have Amen? That was a second team, right? All defense, second team?

• 1:03:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that, I had him second team and I'm already regretting it. But I'll, I'll tell you what I did for the, so I had first team all defense. I had Mobley, Green, Dort, Dyson Daniels. I felt like had to be the poke check shit he was doing. I, nobody's done that in 40 years. I've never, and the, the one thing I didn't love about him was the big physical guys. I felt I could overpower them a little bit, but I, everything else was there. And then I put, I put Zubot's first team.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, why not? Yeah.

• 1:04:25Bill Simmons?

  Um, I thought their whole defense is anchored toward funneling people to him. The rebounding, which I think should matter at least a little bit in all defense, protecting the boards and, uh, and I like to have my teams look like a semblance of a team. I know that these are all fake teams, but

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  They're extremely fake.

• 1:04:43Bill Simmons?

  They're extremely stupid and fake, but I like that. I want them to look like a team. So then second team, Kamara, Ananobi, Amen Thompson, Jalen Williams, and I had Giannis over Gobert. I just felt like we skip over Giannis every year with all defense for some reason. Then you watch these games and he's all over the place covering.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  So JJJ not in either?

• 1:05:04Bill Simmons?

  Neither.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Damn, none. I think he's in the group that could have like a first team argument. I think, you know, it's, it's on that borderline where you're either going to go Amen, Jaren Jackson, Zoo, someone in that category. But I think he's, I think he's got to be there. I think he's got to be their second team. Counter? In, sorry, go ahead.

• 1:05:23Bill Simmons?

  Stay in the fucking court. I've watched too many games or he does the dumbest foul he did in the playing game. He does dumbest fouls at the worst time. And I think that's a huge part of this. Zubot stays on the court.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  That is true.

• 1:05:33Bill Simmons?

  Zubot's is like 2.1 fouls a game and Jackson will be, any big game and watching the playing game, I'm sure it'll be the same thing. He's always lingering around foul trouble. Fallon dude's 20 feet from the basket. What do you have CR?

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  I was just gonna say in honor of your Kia, I thought you sucked, but you actually impressed me this year award or changing that title. I think we could do the Kia, I like watching you play defense more than I like watching most guys play offense team.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  See now we're, now we're talking. The Kia reps are just popping off right now.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  I like watching Amen play defense more than I like watching like 80% of guys play basketball.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I mean, he's, it would be weird a word to have athlete of the year in the NBA, but for me, he's athlete of the year. That's the, the over and over again, when people see Houston in person, they're like, Jesus.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  It's really jarring.

• 1:06:23Bill Simmons?

  What happened to this guy? Okay.

• 1:06:27Bill Simmons?

  Oh, NBA first team, Shay, Jokic, Tatum, Giannis, Mitchell. You knew those were the five. Second team, Edwards, Curry, Mobley, Towns, LeBron James.

• 1:06:43Bill Simmons?

  There's some cases against LeBron because of the net rating, Rob. Like he had a net minus 1.3 net rating on a team that won 50 games. Does that, do you care about that stuff when you look at votes?

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  I think you have to flag it and kind of kick the tires on it, but ultimately circle back to the fact that this is LeBron James and you can, you can see so much of the impact he has on the game. He's, he's not a subtle player. Like he has the ball a lot. He makes incredible plays that no one else can make. I think it's worth looking at, but the Lakers rotation has been so funky all year. I think there's just a lot of noise in it, to be honest with you.

• 1:07:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And CR, I was like, it was just a goofy season. Davis gets hurt, they make a trade mid-season and he was, you know, the only constant. So you're good with LeBron's second team?

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think that you should almost give him credit for the, the adaptability that he's had.

• 1:07:31Bill Simmons?

  Definitely.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  Like to, some nights he has to be the man, some nights he's like playing setup guy for Luka. He's weathered all these different storms and he's actually been like pretty healthy for a 40-year-old. And when he's been on the court, he's looked awesome.

• 1:07:44Bill Simmons?

  Every time I want to heap praise on him, he does stuff like saying how he was in the bottom half of the league with free throws over the last, whatever that thing he said on McAfee was, easily debunked. Or then Rich Paul goes in and talks about how the three guys in Miami weren't actually a big three. If you look at it, it's like, yeah, they were. Bosh was like a 24 and 10 guy on his own team. It was a big three dude. The, the constant trying to push this goat agenda with LeBron. It's, it's, they're making it worse, not better. I'll just say that.

• 1:08:14Bill Simmons?

  Okay. NBA third team, Cade Cunningham and Brunson, no surprise. The last three spots were pretty divisive all over the place. And a lot of people had Hal Burton and, and Jaren Jackson here. Neither of them made my list. Come on.

• 1:08:32Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:08:32Bill Simmons?

  Jalen Williams, OKC. Sure.

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  This is wondering.

• 1:08:36Bill Simmons?

  Zubats. Okay. I put them on. I like that. Because I, I just, look, the NBA does this thing where they're, they've just like, there's too much controversy with these, with the all NBA teams. Just pick 15 best players. And it's like, I don't want to do that. You're throwing away 80 years of history by doing that. I still think I have to have a big man on every team. And if, if there's no big man, then sure, I'll have four guards. But if there's somebody who deserves to be on it, I'm just picking them over having four guards. I thought Zubats, I made the case for him Sunday. I thought he was amazing and incredibly important. And it was a good litmus test of are you watching basketball or not this season? So that last spot came down to James Harden or Tyrese Haliburton for me.

• 1:09:20Bill Simmons?

  And I can't believe that I took James Harden.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  Can I ask you a question?

• 1:09:24Bill Simmons?

  I have two Clippers on my third team.

• 1:09:26Speaker 02

  Do you think it's just funny to cost Steve Ballmer a lot of money? Cause these guys probably will like trigger.

• 1:09:32Bill Simmons?

  Do they have like bonuses? I didn't even, I didn't know about that.

• 1:09:36Bill Simmons?

  I just thought Harden, I watched, I really liked the Pacers, but there were some Pacers games where he just wasn't, didn't have to be that important. First couple of months of the season wasn't great. Last three, four months, he was way, way better, really good.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 1:09:50Bill Simmons?

  Harden does everything for the Clippers. Even when Kawhi is out there, everything's still running through him and he was really durable. He played, I think like 78, 79 games. And I just thought he was really, really good. I had a lot of, I couldn't leave him off. So Rob, what are your take? Two Clippers.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  It's a lot of Clippers, even for a great Clippers season. Especially at Halliburton's expense, who will? It will surprise no one, given my Pacers advocacy. That I have Halliburton, I actually have him on my second team.

• 1:10:18Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  He is the style of play for a 50 win team.

• 1:10:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  Like that's, that's a pretty compelling case. He doesn't have a straightforward one-on-one game and that makes him kind of a funky player. But he has a comprehensive winning effect on everything that's happening around him. And Harden has some of that too. I want to be fair. Like Harden handling and shouldering as much as he did is what lets you play Chris Dunn as much as you do. It's what lets you play Derek Jones Jr. As much as you do. It's what lets you get away with all these other guys slotting into their roles. And so the, the usage kind of efficiency trade-offs of that are not always going to look great for Harden. But the impact is there and is substantial. But him and Zoo over Halliburton. I think the only way to do it is to do what you did, which is construct an entirely new set of rules by which you need to put a center on the team to make it look like an actual basketball team.

• 1:11:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And if it was gonna go, you know, hey, do whatever, then I probably would have done Halliburton and Harden. But I really, I genuinely think Zubats deserves it.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  Those are the rules are do whatever.

• 1:11:19Speaker 02

  But they're not his rules.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  That's true. Look, a man's gotta have a code.

• 1:11:23Bill Simmons?

  Those weren't the rules in 1973. Those weren't the rules in 1997.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  I'm trying to move America forward.

• 1:11:30Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  You know, we're trying.

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  Bill's keeping the positions of all NBA and we're gonna start smoking inside a restaurant.

• 1:11:36Bill Simmons?

  Then we'll start messing around with the constitution. All of a sudden Trump's in there for multiple terms.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Yep. What could go wrong?

• 1:11:43Bill Simmons?

  I felt really bad about Halliburton. I had basically 16 guys for 15 spots. Jackson wasn't gonna make it for me, but Halliburton. So that's it. I'll probably maybe regret it. All right, MVP, last one. I put Mitchell five.

• 1:11:58Bill Simmons?

  I test drove the Edwards case and I test drove the Curry case. Did you do similar test drives, Rob?

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  Uh, for Curry more than Edwards. I think Ant for me is like maybe a, maybe a slight cut below these guys.

• 1:12:09Bill Simmons?

  Tatum four. He was three for me most of the year, but I thought Giannis, whatever happened to him the last month was just out of control. And he just had to be three, especially when Dame goes out and it just didn't matter for them. So Mitchell, Tatum, Giannis, and then I battled back and forth between Jokic and Shay and I changed my mind 100 times. And I really don't think there's a wrong answer because Shay had one of the best seasons by a guard. Probably in the last 40 years, when you're talking about his offensive production, the consistency, how he did against teams head to head.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:12:44Bill Simmons?

  What he meant to a pretty young, but incredibly deep OKC team. And the fact that they won 68 games, like I, I just thought he was an incredible candidate and probably would have taken easily 80% of the seasons. And I think he's gonna win this year anyway. I voted for Jokic.

• 1:13:03Bill Simmons?

  I thought it was the best offensive season I've seen since Jordan. Like for what somebody did game after game, quarter after quarter, all the shit that he did for that team. Not only was he, first of all, to be top three in points, rebounds and assists is. It's bonkers. I just can't believe, but not trying to pad stats, not doing the shit Westbrook did in 2017 where can you box out so I can get this foul shot rebound, all that stuff. His usage rate's not that high. So if you're going to compare it to Luka last year, like Luka had the ball all the time last year. Jokic kinda has the ball out of necessity, but he wants the

• 1:13:44Bill Simmons?

  ball to keep moving, almost like a hockey player. Um, I thought the stuff he did day to day, week to week, I, I've never seen anything like it. And I wa- I, I was leaning there, leaning there, and then that 60, 10, 10 game. I just, I, I was like, this is, we're, we may never see anything like this again. And I just had to pick him. So that's where I landed. I felt like just the fact that he'd won before would be the only reason. I get it. Shay with the wins. I mean, there's great cases for Shay. I didn't like making a pick and I'll probably regret it a week from now, but I just feel like I'm never going to see a season like that again. He got 50 games. They were in a three-way tie for the third spot in the West, which was really competitive.

• 1:14:25Bill Simmons?

  The coach, GM situation was a catastrophe. Murray didn't show up for the first two months of the season. They had no bench. The advanced metrics for when he was on the court, when he was off the court was the biggest disparity in the history of the league. And it's just like, at some point, what are we doing? So I took him. What are your, what's your take, CR?

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  Well, I want to ask you whether or not you think you might regret it in two months if Oklahoma City loses like two games in the playoffs.

• 1:14:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, if they go 16 and 2.

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  Cause I know it's a regular season award, but like, how will it sit if Shay is leading this historically good Oklahoma City team to their first title? And he is like, it's me. Like, I am him. You know, like, you guys are worried about Luka and LeBron.

• 1:15:10Bill Simmons?

  I feel stupid. Right. But, but it's a regular season award. That's the thing. And, and the thing is Shay was incredible. I almost feel like it's not, it's not even like a, like a slap on him. He had, he had like a better season than any Kobe Bryant season. He had as good of a season as any season Jordan ever had statistically. When you look at the wins and all the other stuff, but I just, the Jokic thing I thought was like a fucking unicorn season. Rob, what's your take?

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Uh, I also voted Jokic. I think Shay did, as you said, every single thing you need to do to win MVP. But sometimes you play at the same time as Nikola Jokic. And I mean, this is where every voter is so different. For me, if you are definitively the best player in the world and Jokic is having a season representative of being the best player in the world. I kind of start there and you have to have the burden of proof to overcome it. And I think Shay got as close as I can imagine a player possibly getting with the season that Jokic had. Like that is an incredibly compelling case. What the Thunder were overall, a 68 win team, how dominant their defense was and his role in that, especially juxtaposed with Jokic, who has not been good defensively all season. But the way that Jokic carries that team is totally unique.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  And overall, his production, I think is just something that is really, really hard to talk your way around, around or out of. And so I, I don't feel great about it, but I also don't think I'm ever going to be at the point where I'm losing sleep over voting for Jokic for MVP. Uh, as long as he's playing like this, I'm going to be at peace with that. Even if it means someone who also very well could have, and I think will be MVP, uh, was not number one on my ballot.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  It feels like Jokic has moved into the Jordan LeBron zone where he's MVP every year. And it's really up to the voters to be like, I'm bored or something has happened that feels like lightning in a bottle. You could tell me that next season Shay's not in the top three for NBA voting, MVP voting, and I wouldn't be shocked, right? But I would be if Jokic wasn't.

• 1:17:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, like LeBron was in the zone from 09 to 13. He won four or five, and then that Miami season, the first one was the one he didn't win. But it was just like, when he was on that level that he was at. Nobody was taking the MVP from him as long as his team was winning enough games. And then he went to Cleveland. I think the one LeBron season, you could probably make the case after 13 was that last Cleveland season when he played 82. His stats really good, but if you go back and look like Harden, Harden's team won 65 games and his stats were basically dead even with LeBron. He was a better pick.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  Well, the, the one quirk in that though, was that LeBron was the best player in the league and did have that acclaim and Derrick Rose won. And this, look, Shay is not Derrick Rose. Like this is not that. Shay is absolutely worthy and not just like a narratively driven winner. Like he has every, literally everything you would want on the resume.

• 1:17:56Bill Simmons?

  Especially going against head to head against other good teams. Like he did it. He was an incredible. But I kept coming back like I did. You did the Ringer 100, right?

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06Bill Simmons?

  So I had OKC. I had them. I had Shay too. 17, 18, 62, 65, 79 and 96. I had them with seven of the best 96 guys. And Denver, I had one, 41, 60 and 78. And I'm not even sure how good I feel about the 78, which is Porter. I haven't, that might've been even a little bit too high. And then you think like, no, I'm just like, I don't, I don't know. I don't know how much I like Porter. And then you throw in the bench, which is like every 30 seconds he wasn't in the game, you felt like Denver was going to fall apart. I, I thought it was a historic season. I feel terrible and I, I, that, that I didn't vote for Shay because Shay did every single thing you ever could have asked.

• 1:18:50Bill Simmons?

  I just think Jokic's position is more important. If you're going to look at it. To be like a point center that is also the best rebounder. He did everything, but he not only made the meals for his team, but he like fucking spoon fed them teammate by teammate. I've never seen anything like it.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  And when he was out, they were eating gruel. Like they were eating dirt.

• 1:19:09Bill Simmons?

  They moved to prison food. So we'll see. Jokic could lose in five games in round one and it could be a 2007 Dirk situation, but.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  Well, so Bill, you said you had seven Thunder players on your top 100 ballot. Is Aaron Wiggins one of those players?

• 1:19:23Bill Simmons?

  No, but Kason Wallace was.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  Kason Wa- oh, I love Kason Wallace. Yeah. Okay. Now we're talking.

• 1:19:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Cause I just feel like if Kason Wallace was on another team. That's a 35 minute a game guy for 25 other teams in the league.

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  Straight up one of the best ice show defenders in the league.

• 1:19:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, like and he's luxury for them.

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  Maybe their third or fourth best defender, which I think is, you know, a real state in terms of what the Thunder are right now.

• 1:19:45Bill Simmons?

  If you're gonna ding Shay or anything, and I don't even know if it's a ding. That team is so, and they were missing like Hartenstein was out for a while. Chet missed two thirds of the season. Like, I get it. But when you just think like fundamentally, that team is built so perfectly for them where they can lose any two guys for a game. And it's still okay. They can guard everybody in every conceivable way. And Shay just really has to worry about, I just gotta score for us in crunch time. This is my job. And he was awesome at it.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:20:15Bill Simmons?

  But man, I, that Jokic season.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  One other thing about the Jokic case too, that I've seen going around, like I, I get that the Thunder ran away with the West and they deserve credit for that. And Shay deserves credit for that. When was a 50 win season not good enough to win MVP?

• 1:20:31Bill Simmons?

  Never. I mean, to be, you want to be in the top four seeds. I think if the Denver had fallen to like a seven seed, I think it gets a little dicer. I know everybody was split by a game, but still, you know, the West was, the West had, what, eight? Eight of the best 11 teams in the league, basically. Wisconsin, Indiana, and most of the good players in the league. So, all right, CR. I thought you'd be, I thought CR would be more upset. CR, who'd you have? Shay or Jokic? You didn't tell us.

• 1:20:59Speaker 02

  I have Shay, but it was only just because I, I kind of have a weird feeling that like Oklahoma could just like run away with this. Like this might not be a very close postseason. I think they're so far and away the best team I've watched this year.

• 1:21:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  And we, we haven't had one of those in a, in a while where it's just like, whoa, this train just like left the station. So I think that in honor of that, there's nothing against Jokic. Jokic played the, one of the best basketball games I've ever seen in my life was that 60 point game.

• 1:21:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:29Speaker 02

  But it, I just feel like it was Shay's year.

• 1:21:32Bill Simmons?

  I think OKC gets to the finals unless, I think the Clippers are the only team that has a chance against them. I think they beat everybody else.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  I think they're just gonna win. I think, I think this is their year.

• 1:21:42Bill Simmons?

  Certainly feels like it, especially if Jaylen Brown isn't 100% Jaylen Brown and they play Boston in a finals where they have home court and it's an 80% Jaylen Brown and first them versus Cleveland, I would just take them 10 out of 10 times. Anyway, Mahoney, CR, I kept you way longer than I promised, but I had a good time. Thanks for popping on.

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me, Bill.

• 1:22:03Bill Simmons?

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• 1:22:47Bill Simmons?

  I have some good news. On FanDuel, the Ringer's Player Performance Doubles Profit Boost token is moving to Sundays for the playoffs when we know we're going to have awesome games. That's right, every Sunday during the playoffs, customers can claim a 30% boost on one of my favorite betting markets. And if you don't know about them, check it out. It's easy. It's basically like, I think Boston's going to win. I think Tatum's going to score 25 points. You mix them together. If you win it, you get 30% boost. Sunday, we got Golden State-Houston. Do you think Curry's going to kick butt in that game? You do? You think he's going to score 30 points and have four threes and Golden State's

• 1:23:28Bill Simmons?

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• 1:23:42Bill Simmons?

  Before you watch the action. Brian Windhorst is here and we're taping this on a Tuesday because you came over to watch the first playing game with me. We're running out of Thursday, so we're going to try to go as evergreen as humanly possible.

• 1:23:52Speaker 03

  We'll pretend that we know what's happened in the next two days, but we don't know what's happened. For all I know, Ja scored 56 tonight and beat the Warriors.

• 1:24:00Bill Simmons?

  Tonight was the greatest day of basketball I've ever had.

• 1:24:02Speaker 03

  Ja rescued his reputation tonight and pushed the Warriors to the Thunder. And what I'm trying to do here is sound smart as something like that happens.

• 1:24:10Bill Simmons?

  Ja retired the grenade celebration and had a 70-point game.

• 1:24:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:24:14Bill Simmons?

  So I want to dive into your life, which I'm fascinated by. You're in LA.

• 1:24:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:19Bill Simmons?

  But you're doing get up.

• 1:24:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:24:22Bill Simmons?

  And you told, what time did you get up to do get up?

• 1:24:24Speaker 03

  I get up at like 3:41 a.m. when I'm here, when I'm doing get up, not every day.

• 1:24:30Bill Simmons?

  What's your normal time zone? Which, which one are you on?

• 1:24:32Speaker 03

  Central time zone.

• 1:24:33Bill Simmons?

  So, okay, so you're two hours, but three hours behind ET.

• 1:24:38Speaker 03

  I love doing get up.

• 1:24:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:40Speaker 03

  It's such a fun show to do. I'm not just saying that, I swear. I love working with Greenberg. I love working with their show. I don't want to do it 20 times a month, but it's playoffs, you know, so whatever. But it is hard to, like, tonight, it's going to be a struggle to stay up for this. Like, I'll be struggling in the fourth quarter of this game.

• 1:25:01Bill Simmons?

  So you, you wake up, quick shower just to wake up? Are you getting coffee? Like, what's your move?

• 1:25:07Speaker 03

  I don't drink coffee. I don't, I don't drink coffee. So that's a problem.

• 1:25:10Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:25:11Speaker 03

  I get up.

• 1:25:12Bill Simmons?

  Do you have to put like self-makeup?

• 1:25:14Speaker 03

  No, well, it's a good question. See, this year in the business, so I do put on self-makeup. The makeup artists come about 6 a.m. because there starts your show starting around then. But I put on some powder at like 4:45. Yeah.

• 1:25:30Bill Simmons?

  That was, I remember my friend Rob Stone, who works for, does a bunch of stuff for Fox. I've known him forever. They, ESPN let us do a college basketball game once at Pepperdine.

• 1:25:40Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 1:25:41Bill Simmons?

  And it was like in the mid 2000s and. We get there and we're about to go on and he pulls out this thing and he's doing this. And I'm like, what are you doing? And he's like, I'm powdering up. Do you want some? I'm like, no. And he's like, well, you're gonna regret it. And then he was right.

• 1:25:55Speaker 03

  Well, like, the thing is, like, too much information. Like, after I take a shower, I get like a red face. So I've gotta, I gotta do it. I gotta put on the powder. So I've got like a little compact with me.

• 1:26:04Bill Simmons?

  And you put your little thing, your little head?

• 1:26:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:06Bill Simmons?

  And can you, are you on the delay? Cause that's always one of the hard things in those.

• 1:26:10Speaker 03

  No. So like, I'm here in LA. We have a studio. I go into the studio.

• 1:26:15Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you go in?

• 1:26:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:16Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:26:17Speaker 03

  I walk. I mean, it's short distance from it.

• 1:26:19Bill Simmons?

  Hotel to the thing. Okay, I get it.

• 1:26:21Speaker 03

  But during this, the playoffs, I'll be doing it for my hotel room a lot. I choose hotel rooms. I choose hotels in the playoffs based on when I can do a good morning TV setup. Like, I know this is gonna sound strange, but there was a hotel in Dallas last year.

• 1:26:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:37Speaker 03

  That I picked, cause I did it in the Western Conference Finals and I came back to the finals, that I knew they had high chairs in the lobby. And I swiped, I came, I went to the bartender and said, hey, can I borrow one of these chairs? Cause you know, you gotta sit on a high chair.

• 1:26:50Bill Simmons?

  Hey, you're Brian Windhorst.

• 1:26:51Speaker 03

  He didn't know what it was.

• 1:26:52Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:26:53Speaker 03

  And I dragged it into the, like a bar chair into the elevator.

• 1:26:59Speaker 03

  I took it upstairs.

• 1:27:00Bill Simmons?

  They probably thought you were stealing it.

• 1:27:01Speaker 03

  Because you need to sit on a high chair.

• 1:27:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:03Speaker 03

  You know, it doesn't look good when you're scrunched up. So you don't have that in a hotel room. So I, and I did it in Minneapolis too. Like I, I like borrowed chairs and take them to my room. Like when I'm on the road in the playoffs doing get up and first take in the morning. Like sometimes I'm at the arenas where they have setups, but on nights, on days when I don't, and I'm in a hotel, that's what I do. But when I'm in LA, we have a studio.

• 1:27:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then you do, you attempt the craziest thing, which I have never done and will never do, is doing actual content on the court after games, when, when people can interrupt you. Zach told me, you could tell the story though, somebody interrupted you and came in and had some amazing story and then it wasn't recording.

• 1:27:42Speaker 03

  Do you know where I am?

• 1:27:43Bill Simmons?

  So what was that story?

• 1:27:44Speaker 03

  So the Dan Hurley thing had just gone down.

• 1:27:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:48Speaker 03

  He came out here to Lakers and got a new contract. It was after one of the games in Boston.

• 1:27:54Speaker 03

  Had to have been like game two, okay? And Zach and I are on the court and Gino is, um, Gino walks past, cause you know, you're doing on the court. It's just live, like we're constantly grabbing people who are walking by. Gino walks by, says hello to us, we're recording, okay? And I, he had just signed a new contract. And I made this joke, I was like, hey, congrats on your new contract. I was a little worried they might not retain you.

• 1:28:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:28:21Speaker 03

  Like a joke. He goes, yeah, I should have, somebody, there was a job open, I, oh, it was a Cleveland job. He goes, yeah, I should have pretended like I was going to go to the Cavs, I could have got more money.

• 1:28:32Speaker 03

  Like only half joking. And I mean, maybe he was fully joking, I don't know, but it was like.

• 1:28:36Bill Simmons?

  Or maybe he wasn't joking at all.

• 1:28:38Speaker 03

  It was an amazing moment, like, oh my God, I think he just took like a soft shot at Dan Hurley, or maybe a hard shot, I don't know. Um, and then like, two minutes later, Cedric Maxwell walks by. And he's always good for talking shit about the Lakers.

• 1:28:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:57Speaker 03

  And you know, I think Boston got up 2-0. And I prompted him to talk some trash, which he did, which is always great. Like, this is now like multiple finals in a row where I've gotten Max to do this. It's almost like a trope, he knows, they all know, Zach and I are sitting there with microphones, they all know what's going on. And so he makes like some sort of passing comment, making fun of the Lakers or James Worthy. And he keeps on walking and he walks, cause you know, we, we did, there's, there's wires on the ground. He walks through the wires and he pulls it and the recorder goes flying onto the court, explodes open things that.

• 1:29:35Bill Simmons?

  When you lose everything.

• 1:29:36Speaker 03

  We lost everything.

• 1:29:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh my God.

• 1:29:38Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:29:39Bill Simmons?

  That's like my worst nightmare.

• 1:29:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, and you know, Zach, like.

• 1:29:42Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:29:43Speaker 03

  Zach doesn't do the second take, like he was ready to like. He's ready to walk. He's like, we're just not gonna do it tonight. I go, no, Zach, it's so we have game two of the finals. We need to do it. So yeah, that happened.

• 1:29:55Bill Simmons?

  It's been really fun for me to watch your, your, your, I don't know. I don't want to say rise, but like whatever the journey has been where you're now.

• 1:30:03Speaker 03

  By the way, thank you for letting me have the Larry Bird cup.

• 1:30:05Bill Simmons?

  I did. I will. You're a guest.

• 1:30:06Speaker 03

  I wasn't sure I should take.

• 1:30:09Bill Simmons?

  Um, watching the rise, we talked about, uh, or the journey. We talked, you came on after the, uh, the Utah thing.

• 1:30:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:30:17Bill Simmons?

  The finger point, which is still going. Get up is still milking that.

• 1:30:20Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:30:21Bill Simmons?

  As a gimmick for you.

• 1:30:23Speaker 03

  It gets milked everywhere across the country where I go.

• 1:30:25Bill Simmons?

  But then last year you did the Luca thing during the finals, which I immediately took seriously because I've known you for a long time and I don't think you do stuff like that lightly.

• 1:30:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:30:34Bill Simmons?

  And it felt like there was real thought put into it for a bunch of different reasons. And you were just like, fuck it. I'm doing this right now. I have all this different intel I'm getting. I was at the same game you were, and I thought Luca really screwed the game up and just was acting like a brat that game. I'm pro Luca, by the way. Um, but he was bratty and he really hurt them that game. And then you just said, fuck it and went for it.

• 1:30:58Speaker 03

  I was angry because the finals were over. He, you know, he fouled out of this game and the finals were over. Um, and I thought it could have been a good series.

• 1:31:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:07Speaker 03

  Um, and the reason that I was having that visceral reaction was because I'd seen him do it before. It was an international play. Two other times in his career, he got disqualified from, and essentially an elimination. It was an elimination game, which that was an elimination game. It happened when he was on the Slovenian national team. Uh, one time he fouled out because he got a technical foul, which in international competition counts as a personal foul.

• 1:31:33Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:31:34Speaker 03

  And he fouled out on a technical, like in the European, in the Euro Cup, the Euro Basket, they call it. They were their defending champs. One of the great moments of his career, by the way, was winning Euro Basket with Slovenia. Slovenia, it's laughable that they could win, not laughable. It's impressive.

• 1:31:51Bill Simmons?

  I would say impossible.

• 1:31:52Speaker 03

  They won the European championship, like in the late teens. And then when they had their, they were defending their title. He got ejected from the game. They got eliminated. It was ridiculous. And then in the, in the, uh, World Cup, um, in Philippines in 23, so a year earlier, he got thrown out of the quarterfinals. And now they probably would have lost the game, but like in the middle of the game. He was angry at the officials and he went over to half court. This is in Manila Philippines. I know nobody watched it. It was in the middle of the night and he is cursing out the Secretary General of FIBA. Like the free throws are going on. He comes down and curses out the Secretary General in Spanish.

• 1:32:37Speaker 03

  I know because I was talking to the people who were sitting next to Secretary General. Yeah. Who knows what he was saying, but can you imagine like in a game like, cause you know where Adam Silver sits. Secretary General was sitting kind of in the same spot like midway up the deck. Yeah. Can you imagine like going over and cursing out Adam Silver because Scott Foster had just called a foul? Like it's, it's ridiculous. And by the way, the idea that they would not want Luka Doncic and Slovenia advancing, that's, it's a preposterous conspiracy. And then a few minutes later, got a second technical and got thrown out of the game. And I'm like, Luca, what are you doing? The only chance Slovenia has is if you're great. How are you getting thrown out of these elimination games?

• 1:33:17Speaker 03

  So I didn't, I was, that was at least the third time that I know of, and I don't know his whole career. That he had allowed himself to be basically getting disqualified because the sixth foul was a preposterous foul. It was a ridiculous foul and his behavior the whole game was ridiculous. And so I was angry that I'd seen him for the third time, the second time in person in less than a year, disqualified from an elimination game where he totally undercut his team. For, for just petulance. Yes. And I was, I was criticizing him obviously, but I was, the reason I was angry was because he's so much better than that. Yeah. And that's why I was saying, I was like, that's not winning.

• 1:34:02Speaker 03

  You know, winning is what the Celtics are doing. This is what you're doing is losing. This is a losing mentality. And so.

• 1:34:10Bill Simmons?

  Well, obviously the Mavericks agreed with you.

• 1:34:13Speaker 03

  Well, the people in Dallas did not agree with me because it was not the most fun next two days.

• 1:34:17Bill Simmons?

  I was gonna say, yeah, it's because I don't remember if I saw you after that, but we were there for an off day and then game four was.

• 1:34:24Speaker 03

  And then Luca came back and played great in game four.

• 1:34:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:26Speaker 03

  Like played defense, like was focused and people were like, oh, he proved you're wrong. And I was like, no.

• 1:34:33Bill Simmons?

  You're down 3-1 in the series. You proved nothing.

• 1:34:35Speaker 03

  It was upsetting because he could have played that way the whole time. And you know what's funny about this? I will see, I don't remember what day, there's one day off in between games three and game four. It's the only time there's one day off in the finals. And so there was one day off in between. And then there was the whole pregame for game four. I was in the arena for many hours the next two days. And all kinds of Mavericks people were there, front office people, coaching staff, executives, what have you. Nobody said anything. Nobody said.

• 1:35:08Bill Simmons?

  Like, nobody defended him?

• 1:35:10Speaker 03

  Well, I don't, I mean, I'm not saying it was in there. I'm not saying they had to. I'm just saying like, I was prepared.

• 1:35:16Bill Simmons?

  Oh, to get them laying into you. Yeah.

• 1:35:18Speaker 03

  And Jason Kidd said some stuff in the press conference, like he was like defending Luca, which he should. But like no, I was available. Like if like, trust me, I get, when I say something that pisses people off, not every day. But you know, people will reach out to me like you were wrong about this.

• 1:35:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, especially at the finals, you're gonna run into them the next day. So there's a heightened level of something.

• 1:35:43Speaker 03

  I mean, I did, at the time, I didn't think like, I wasn't like noticing, boy, no one's saying anything to me. I was like, well, they're down 3-0 and the series is over. They're not really in the.

• 1:35:53Bill Simmons?

  Well, I said, I said on one of the pods I did this week about Minnesota Lakers. I can't remember if it was, I did my pod, then I went on Zach's. I really feel like Minnesota has a game plan in that series should be to mess with Luca and try to get him. I've watched him. I've watched it happen multiple times already in this Lakers season. He, for some reason, and I kinda, I gotta be honest, I kinda like it because it's almost like he almost seems Italian to me, even though he's Slovenian, but he just takes everything personally. If somebody talks shit to him, he can't believe it and he'll just keep it going for five minutes. He'll talk to people in the first two rows. He'll get mad at a ref and keep going with the ref for 10 minutes. And then the, the thing

• 1:36:36Bill Simmons?

  that really bugs him, which is so funny, I think he's the only guy in the league that does this. If there's a foul on him, like somebody fouls him and the guy who fouled him is then turning to the ref and complaining about the thing and Luca thinks it was a foul. He actually gets like offended and he'll like get involved in the argument and he'll start and he'll just go back and forth, but he just, he plays with such a chip on his shoulder. I feel like you could use it against him. You look at Minnesota, they have Edwards, they have McDaniel's, they have Alexander Walker, like Randall, they have some guys who can I think mess with them.

• 1:37:09Speaker 03

  Well, I will say this, I've been talking to their, you know, the guys who cover the Mavericks. He's had ongoing feuds with individual fans for years.

• 1:37:19Bill Simmons?

  Dallas fans?

• 1:37:20Speaker 03

  No, no, on the road. Like there's a, you know, because he got into it with the guy in Oklahoma City like two weeks ago. Apparently that's not the first time those guys have gotten into it, or if not, it was somebody nearby. Like he goes, I mean, like, actually, I don't have a problem with him getting into it with fans. I would rather him go back and forth with a fan or the opposing player as opposed to getting back into it with the refs.

• 1:37:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:41Speaker 03

  Because he gets back and forth with the refs, he hurts his team.

• 1:37:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, and they, they, and they just get so fed up with them after a while too.

• 1:37:47Speaker 03

  Right. Well, that play, like he was incorrectly ejected from that game in Oklahoma City. Nobody would question that he was, obviously he was talking to the fan.

• 1:37:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:56Speaker 03

  But the ref, I believe it was JT Orr, had hurt, there was not even contact on that play. He scored on the interior. There was no contact. There was nothing for him to really complain about. But the ref has hurt him for years. And did you see what he did? He like wound up and gave him a baseball umpire, get out of here.

• 1:38:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:14Speaker 03

  This is what happens with, with Draymond too. Like the refs, like. They are so tired of hearing it that they that.

• 1:38:22Bill Simmons?

  There's one other guy that's if you're doing the first team all NBA for this, the sneaky guy in this team is Tatum. This is a running thing with him all year. He just and you know, obviously I'm a Celtics fan, so I'm I see his side on it. Cause I do feel like he gets doesn't get the benefit of the calls all the time. But now so that he does this wave thing.

• 1:38:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38:44Bill Simmons?

  Refs, certain things trigger refs and one of them is the dismissive wave. They just fucking hate it. They really don't like it and he gets whistled on that over and over again, or they hold it against him. And it's weird because I think he's probably the quietest, most unassuming superstar we have.

• 1:39:01Speaker 03

  He's a really good guy.

• 1:39:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And this is like his one thing, like he just gets really pissed about it.

• 1:39:06Speaker 03

  I've had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with him at Team USA.

• 1:39:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:10Speaker 03

  I spent three weeks covering him in China in 19. I spent, um, we weren't as close in the 2021. When I say we weren't as close, I'm talking about we couldn't get as close.

• 1:39:18Bill Simmons?

  The access because of COVID.

• 1:39:20Speaker 03

  In in Tokyo, but still I he was, by the way, it was awesome with the Tokyo team. I kind of feel like people didn't watch that fine that Olympics. It was just off and everything. I don't, I don't, I didn't, nobody ever talks about that Olympics. Durant was absolutely freaking brilliant.

• 1:39:35Bill Simmons?

  I honestly can't even remember what happened, but I don't remember anything. I don't remember 2020, 2021.

• 1:39:39Speaker 03

  Tatum was arguably their second best player.

• 1:39:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, it felt like Tatum was going to have this arc where he was going to be one of the best American because he was just such a perfect.

• 1:39:48Speaker 03

  He still can. He still can. Like he's got plenty of time. We're going to be here in LA in three years, four years, whatever.

• 1:39:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, they, I mean, he's the number one guy they need for just because of what he does specifically.

• 1:40:01Speaker 03

  He is a perfect international player and um, he was that in that Olympics, they were in big trouble against Australia in the semifinals.

• 1:40:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:11Speaker 03

  Australia had been building toward that game for a decade. Um, you know.

• 1:40:18Speaker 03

  Their guys, you know, Patty Mills and Joe Ingles and um who am I forgetting? I mean, it the golden generation of they won the bronze. They ended up getting their first ever medal.

• 1:40:29Bill Simmons?

  No, this was their sports movie and this was the ending of the sports movie.

• 1:40:32Speaker 03

  They were ahead by 12 or 14 in the third quarter, which international basketball is like 25 because the games are shorter.

• 1:40:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:39Speaker 03

  And Popovich goes to a triangle and two, which they had practiced like for like barely part of one practice.

• 1:40:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:50Speaker 03

  Australia like staggers for like three possessions. They've never seen Americans do this before. Durant hits like three threes, Tatum misses a shot. I can't remember who else, but Durant turned it.

• 1:41:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:01Speaker 03

  Cause Durant was untouchable, you know, Durant was coming off the Achilles and played because he loves team USA so much. It was such a wholesome moment. They come back and beat Australia. It's a great comeback. Nobody ever remembers it. If they had lost, people remembered forever. And then they play a really competitive game with France in the title game. Where Tatum, I think played really well, like um Drew Holiday was huge defending in the semifinals and finals.

• 1:41:29Bill Simmons?

  That's when all the coaches really fell in love with him.

• 1:41:32Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:41:33Bill Simmons?

  One of the things I like about you is you love international basketball and taking big giant takeaways from them even more than I do.

• 1:41:41Speaker 03

  Well, they just.

• 1:41:41Bill Simmons?

  I really value it. I I think it's such an interesting kind of laboratory to put all these great players in and see how they're going to respond. Like the fact that Jokic, you know, almost beat team USA by himself and and it was sitting there for him. And, you know, he didn't have the most amazing game, but the fact was his team thought he was the best guy on the court and he gave them the chance and then they missed some shots.

• 1:42:06Speaker 03

  The Serbians are fascinating, the way they play Bogie Bogdanovich.

• 1:42:12Speaker 03

  Is like when you the same way with Patty Mills. You watch Patty Mills, he's now he's past his prime, but Patty Mills, if you squinted, you thought he was Steve Nash. The way he plays for the team, Australia in 2019 in China, which was the World Cup in China, they ended up finishing out the medals there, but he played a couple of games where you're like, why isn't this guy a Hall of Famer?

• 1:42:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, remember the Spain team in the 2000s where like Juan Carlos Navarro, why isn't this guy?

• 1:42:40Speaker 03

  La Bamba.

• 1:42:40Bill Simmons?

  Why isn't this guy a 13 mile NBA?

• 1:42:42Speaker 03

  Well, Spain won in 2019. The Americans had a terrible team. Tatum was on that team. He was leading them.

• 1:42:48Bill Simmons?

  Tweener team.

• 1:42:49Speaker 03

  He sprained his ankle in a game against Turkey that they win in overtime.

• 1:42:54Speaker 03

  And again, like I'm in Shanghai on a Saturday night. It's the middle of the night in America. No one cares. And Ersan Ilyasova is kicking our ass, right? And Tatum is saving the day. They end up going to overtime and Tatum sprains his ankle in overtime and he's, he's cooked the rest of the way and we end up in seventh, seventh. But anyway, in that game, Ricky Rubio, so you gotta remember Ricky Rubio's story.

• 1:43:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:23Speaker 03

  Rubio was boy wonder for Spain.

• 1:43:27Bill Simmons?

  Age 17, playing against the US in 08.

• 1:43:30Speaker 03

  Exactly. Comes to Beijing. They've made documentaries about this game. Rubio is trash. He was trash in the game. He was miserable in this arena. Now, we are now 11 years later. Rubio's gone through his career. He's had a middle and career. He's had his moments. 2019, he is playing in the same arena. They are playing against Argentina in the final. Luis Scola turns the clock back, somehow gets the Argentinians to the final. Rubio is amazing. Dancing on air. Marc Gasol has just won the title with Toronto. A few months later, he wins the gold medal. You know, this is, this, you know, the Spain, the Spanish,

• 1:44:08Speaker 03

  get this world championship. They're celebrating. Rubio is amazing. Rubio is named, um, is named MVP. His mother has just died like of breast cancer a few months before. He comes over, we televised the game at ESPN. Again, no one had watched this because why are you watching in the middle of, or you know, maybe it's, you know, it was

• 1:44:31Bill Simmons?

  I might have been watching.

• 1:44:32Speaker 03

  It was a 2 a.m. whatever. And Rubio is having the greatest moment of his career. He's won the MVP for Spain in the arena. And I ask him, I do the post-game interview because I'm doing the sideline interview. He, Rubio does like seven interviews, like because he's, you know, all the world feeds. He does, you know,

• 1:44:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:51Speaker 03

  France and whatever. And I asked him about his mother and he starts crying. No one ever saw this. It's the greatest. I'll never do, I don't do sideline interviews, but I will never, I could do a hundred of them and never do a better interview. Rubio is in tears, having this amazing moment. And the average NBA fan, you could even be a Rubio fan, and you don't know about this moment where he wins. And you know, subsequently, like basically, he quits basketball because of, you know, mental health stuff. So

• 1:45:19Bill Simmons?

  I still feel like if you redo, that's a, that's a classic. Let's redo the career and try another, try another outcome. Let's just hit the reset button on the video game and bring him into the NBA in 2009.

• 1:45:31Speaker 03

  Drafted instead of Steph Curry, and then he didn't come over right away and

• 1:45:34Bill Simmons?

  He ended up on the dumbest team ever. Kobe fell into his leg. It was just, everything went wrong for four years. I still feel like there was a lot more there.

• 1:45:41Speaker 03

  So that's what I get in international basketball. You have these moments. Bogey Bogdanovich is in a feud with his coach. The, the, this guy, if you, if you saw, um, what's the Netflix series? They had him on there.

• 1:45:54Bill Simmons?

  Cordigo, yeah.

• 1:45:54Speaker 03

  Um, Passach. He's this old, hard, mean SOB. And, uh, he and Bogdanovich got into it during the 2023, um, World Cup. Jokic didn't play. I don't know why Jokic didn't play. I can speculate as to why Jokic didn't play. Whatever. Jokic doesn't play. And it's really hard to qualify for the Olympics. It's really hard. Because you gotta go through those qualifying, you know, and the, the Serbians.

• 1:46:26Speaker 03

  I'm like, well, Jokic isn't playing. Serbia ain't qualifying because you gotta be one. You gotta be the top two European finishers at the World Cup to qualify. I'm like, they ain't qualifying. Well, Bogdanovich, after getting benched by this coach, has this incredible run in the knockout rounds, carries Serbia to the championship. And yeah, they lose, but they qualify for the Olympics. And I'm going, again, like, nobody cares about this, but I'm sitting there going, well, this is a bad break for the United States. Serbia just qualified for the Olympics.

• 1:46:54Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:46:54Speaker 03

  And now Jokic will see them in Paris. And I was worried.

• 1:46:57Bill Simmons?

  By the way, he really cares.

• 1:46:59Speaker 03

  I was worried about the, about Team USA losing to Serbia in August of 23, when the Serbians qualified. And then they set up the schedule so that Serbia got three looks at the US. They played them in Dubai

• 1:47:16Speaker 03

  for an exhibition game, which again, nobody cares, but they got a look at them. Then they played them in the pool play. Then they got them in the knockout rounds and Pesic and Jokic and all those dudes played it to set up the United States to go after them. They didn't care what the score was in the pool play game.

• 1:47:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:34Speaker 03

  They set them, they set it up to go at, they were thinking about it for months. The draw that got Serbia into the USA's pool was like in February. They started thinking in February about that night in August, when they could get them in the semi, they didn't know it would be the semifinal, but they knew they would see them. And they set the whole thing up and they took money, extra money to go to Abu Dhabi and play. I'm telling you, all building up to that moment. And the average fan, yes, USA fan doesn't care. I don't blame them. I'm just telling you, all that drama is going into it. And they, and Steve Kerr and Sean Ford, like the general manager, USA, USA basketball, like they're thinking about it for months. Like,

• 1:48:14Speaker 03

  as Steve Kerr is coaching the Warriors last year, he's like, I know, I gotta worry about Serbia. And Jeff Van Gundy is like consulting with the Celtics.

• 1:48:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:24Speaker 03

  Jeff Van Gundy, he's on the USA staff. He's thinking about Serbia. Serbia, Serbia, Serbia.

• 1:48:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, then you also have France at home, which is the other one.

• 1:48:32Speaker 03

  Of course, which the French were actually in the middle of imploding and then they rallied back.

• 1:48:37Bill Simmons?

  It's weird because I actually think they really could have used Tatum in those games. And I understand why he didn't play and, you know, I think in a weird way.

• 1:48:45Speaker 03

  You are in the minority because.

• 1:48:47Bill Simmons?

  No, I, I, I really get it. I, I just think they won the title and he was worn out and he had a kid and he missed a couple of practices and his shot was off and Steve doesn't, Steve doesn't give a shit.

• 1:49:00Speaker 03

  Here's the thing, you can't, I keep saying this, people don't listen to me. It's fine. I don't care. International basketball is so vastly different.

• 1:49:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:11Speaker 03

  The difference between 40 and 48 minutes. I cannot underline how big of a difference it is. It is so different, especially.

• 1:49:19Bill Simmons?

  The flow of the game is in person, that's the weirdest thing to get used to.

• 1:49:22Speaker 03

  Also the five fouls.

• 1:49:24Bill Simmons?

  Things won't stop. Yeah, right. You get all of a sudden somebody has four fouls, there's 15 minutes left in the game.

• 1:49:29Speaker 03

  Right. And so other thing is the NBA mindset is if you get down 15, it doesn't matter.

• 1:49:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you can always come back.

• 1:49:39Speaker 03

  You can't play that.

• 1:49:40Bill Simmons?

  Well, you also can't chase calls in, in this, in that international version. You can't lurch into somebody and you can't get bailed out left and right.

• 1:49:48Speaker 03

  It's the inverse of the NBA. So here's the thing, in the NBA, like there's this inherent bias that everybody wants the Lakers and the Celtics to do well. And whether or not that's true or not.

• 1:49:57Bill Simmons?

  It's definitely the Lakers part.

• 1:50:00Speaker 03

  Of course. Nothing ever goes in Celtics way. You're right.

• 1:50:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we haven't gotten one break.

• 1:50:05Speaker 03

  In the international game, they want the US to lose.

• 1:50:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Speaker 03

  Like when the US loses, the FIBA officials are over there giving each other high fives under the table. They want the US to lose because they want it to be more of a global game.

• 1:50:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, would you change the, I, I've said this every four years. I would, I would put a cap on the age of the guys we have.

• 1:50:27Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:50:27Bill Simmons?

  And I would go, you have to be in your twenties or your teens and that's it.

• 1:50:31Speaker 03

  So here's my recommendation, and I know that people are probably turning off the pod because we're talking about international basketball.

• 1:50:36Bill Simmons?

  No, this is great stuff.

• 1:50:37Speaker 03

  So the next World Cup is in 2027. I will give you all the money in my wallet if you tell, because you obviously need it. All the money in my wallet, if you can tell me where the World Cup is being played in 2027. I'd give you seven guesses. You're not gonna take that and be boring, but you have any idea where the World Cup is being played?

• 1:50:55Bill Simmons?

  Isn't it somewhere weird like Saudi Arabia?

• 1:50:58Speaker 03

  You're close.

• 1:50:59Bill Simmons?

  Where is it?

• 1:51:00Speaker 03

  Saudi Arabia would probably be the next one. It's in Doha. It's in Qatar.

• 1:51:03Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:51:04Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:51:05Bill Simmons?

  Are you going?

• 1:51:06Speaker 03

  I don't want to.

• 1:51:08Bill Simmons?

  That's like you're on a plane for a day and a half, right?

• 1:51:11Speaker 03

  I've gone to Abu Dhabi the last two summers with T M U S A and absolutely loved it. And I know that it's um.

• 1:51:18Bill Simmons?

  You're a big Abu Dhabi guy.

• 1:51:19Speaker 03

  I love Abu Dhabi.

• 1:51:22Speaker 03

  And you know, the NBA is getting closer to there. And His Excellency Mohammed Al Mubarak is the head of the chairman, I call him the chairman. Of the Department of Culture and Tourism. He is.

• 1:51:39Bill Simmons?

  Possible podcast for you, podcast partner?

• 1:51:42Speaker 03

  I would love to have him on a podcast. He'd be great on a podcast. He knows the NBA.

• 1:51:45Bill Simmons?

  Windhorst and His Excellency, the new podcast?

• 1:51:47Speaker 03

  You'd get along with, well, he hates the Celtics. But he went to school at Northeastern. And he told me this, he told me this great story. He's, by the way, his brother is Kaldun Al Mubarak, who runs the city football group, Man City, runs Man City. That's his brother. His brother is a couple of years older than him. He was going to school in Boston. I'm not sure if it's an Northeastern or something else. He comes to visit his brother. He's 16 years old. They go to a Celtics game.

• 1:52:13Speaker 03

  This is like the ruling, the ruling family of Abu Dhabi. They go to a Celtics game. And he's a big Laker fan because why wouldn't he be? Because, you know, he lives in Abu Dhabi. Why wouldn't he be a Laker fan? So they go to the Laker, the 2010 finals? He's going to a finals game, Lakers Celtics. He's wearing a Laker jersey. He doesn't know, he doesn't know any better. Okay, he doesn't understand.

• 1:52:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh, he's in Boston with a Laker?

• 1:52:39Speaker 03

  He's going to a finals game in Boston, okay? And he comes up and he and his brother sit down. And right next to him are these, this husband and wife in their 70s. And they've got like these, you know, the husband's wearing like this old Larry Bird jersey that's probably has since 82. And the wife is all dressed up and they're all dressed out and they're all ready. And he goes down and says, oh, hey, how are you? He thinks it's charming. And the woman looks over at him and flips him off. It's like, welcome to Boston. So he goes to school in Boston. Anyway, he knows the NBA extremely well. He would love to be heavily invested in the NBA. I've spent quite a bit of time with him. I, I like him a lot. I know that there's challenges

• 1:53:23Speaker 03

  when you're doing business in the Middle East or whatever. I don't pretend to know. I'm not trying to cast aspersions.

• 1:53:28Bill Simmons?

  The global windy.

• 1:53:30Speaker 03

  I.

• 1:53:30Bill Simmons?

  It's even more impressive than some of my connections.

• 1:53:32Speaker 03

  I had like for, for example, he would make comments. He was talking about a certain Lakers player. I don't want to put his business out. He was talking about a certain Lakers player who's no longer in the team. And he says, the reason his teammates don't like him is because he doesn't play defense. That's why they don't like him. This is the kind of commentary he's giving.

• 1:53:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:50Speaker 03

  He watches it games in the morning when he's like on the treadmill, he's watching Laker games. Like when I first met him, he was traditionally dressed, but then he, you know, sits down, he was wearing Jordans. So he's super into it. Um, last year, when the US went to Abu Dhabi to play, um, he came and addressed the team on the first day of practice. And he very begrudgingly congratulated, uh, Tatum, Drew Holiday and, and, um, who was the third Celtic? Uh, Derrick White. It's like, congratulations.

• 1:54:24Bill Simmons?

  So he's not in the new ownership group, I'm gonna guess.

• 1:54:27Speaker 03

  You know, if they allowed him to buy it, he would have bought it, but they don't allow the sovereign wealth funds to.

• 1:54:33Bill Simmons?

  Were you, did you think it would get to six billion?

• 1:54:36Speaker 03

  No. Also, the team's not sold yet.

• 1:54:39Bill Simmons?

  Don't start with that. That's, no, that's ridiculous.

• 1:54:43Speaker 03

  No, I did not think they would get to six billion and Winkler Spock all the way through. Said, I'm going to get my price. I'm going to get my deal, which is enables him to stay as.

• 1:54:51Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna get Adam Silver's price.

• 1:54:54Bill Simmons?

  That's what it was.

• 1:54:55Speaker 03

  Well, his price too.

• 1:54:56Bill Simmons?

  The number was six.

• 1:54:57Speaker 03

  They, they got more than six.

• 1:54:59Bill Simmons?

  Well, when you throw in like that little bully tax you have for the other owners, it's six, one plus. It actually, that, that part goes into the sevens.

• 1:55:07Speaker 03

  From what I understand, and you know, the deal's not official or whatever, but from what I understand, you know, they're buying 51% this year at six. And they're buying the other 49% at like seven.

• 1:55:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:20Speaker 03

  And so the price is actually a little bit, it's higher than they're being, than they're saying.

• 1:55:24Bill Simmons?

  Boston Celtics, not a lot of, not a lot of franchises in pro sports like that, but yeah, it's nuts. They have no, they don't own their own arena. Now, they have an incredible power spot in that arena because if they decide to start building their own, the, the place they're in now is screwed. So I, they'll, they'll be fine.

• 1:55:43Speaker 03

  Well, I would just say this about the Celtics. Um, I think Sportico reported this. I haven't heard this, but Sportico is good at their business. I think they probably got it because the Celtics financials got out there because they had to give, they had to show them to people. They had bidders. The Celtics made $450 million last year. That was their revenue. Just great. Probably, I don't have the whole league, but definitely top five, maybe top three.

• 1:56:09Bill Simmons?

  Well, especially you, once you go four rounds in the playoffs, that is a whole other level.

• 1:56:13Speaker 03

  It was probably, it was, I feel comfortable saying was the largest revenue season in the history of the Celtics franchise.

• 1:56:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:22Speaker 03

  Their payroll next year is 450 million.

• 1:56:25Bill Simmons?

  If it's the exact same roster.

• 1:56:26Speaker 03

  Okay. I'm just saying, yeah, fine. I'm just saying though, that like,

• 1:56:31Speaker 03

  why did Wick, why did the Goosebumps family want to sell now? Because they know that their payroll is equal to their revenue. That's.

• 1:56:39Bill Simmons?

  So I don't believe that. I actually, I'm going to push back. I don't think that's why. I think the dad was old and I don't think he's 90 and I think he, they have four kids.

• 1:56:49Speaker 03

  Hey, listen, I don't know. I'm not in their family. I don't know.

• 1:56:51Bill Simmons?

  He hadn't been to a game since 2010. I think he's like, let's sell this thing. We won the title. Let's go. And that, that I really think it was that simple. Do I think Wick want to sell it? No.

• 1:57:01Speaker 03

  Well, he's not selling it. He gets to run it for three more years.

• 1:57:04Bill Simmons?

  He gets to run it for up to three more years.

• 1:57:06Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:57:07Bill Simmons?

  That this new owner at whenever he feels like, okay, I've, I've, uh, I'm feeling good on all my business side. I'm ready to take over.

• 1:57:16Speaker 03

  I am not claiming to have inside information, but you, but you think that the fact that they are going to spend is on as much money on payroll as they take in next year. In other words, they're facing. Hundreds of millions of dollars in losses, you think that had nothing to do with it?

• 1:57:32Bill Simmons?

  I don't.

• 1:57:33Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:57:34Bill Simmons?

  I don't. I really, I think this was a, I really think this was a family thing and I think there was a lot going on that had nothing to do with the fortunes. That, that guy Irv, the 90 year old, the legend, he's made a kajillion dollars. Like he's, you think he cares that they have some big tax bill?

• 1:57:50Speaker 03

  I know he's got a lot more now.

• 1:57:52Bill Simmons?

  The thing is, um, I don't think this would be the same roster, which is why the Celtics, this little run is so interesting. Not only trying to go back to back, but odds are this won't be the same nucleus.

• 1:58:02Speaker 03

  So let me ask you this, if you win again, does that mean you keep the roster together or you, you can start?

• 1:58:09Bill Simmons?

  It's the age old thing, right? Like Dallas didn't do it.

• 1:58:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:58:12Bill Simmons?

  In 11, we've seen teams say like, yeah, we took that. Like we, we've seen teams like the Pistons in the late eighties where they left Mahorn unprotected. Um, I personally do not think the expensive guys will all be together next year, but I don't know.

• 1:58:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't either.

• 1:58:28Bill Simmons?

  It just seems like it would make more sense for them if you're paying, let's say Holiday or Porzingis, you're paying those guys 34 million, but with all the other things that come into play, those guys now are worth a hundred million dollars. And you could reset that way and you lose one guy and you're weaker in one spot, but you've still have Tatum and Brown.

• 1:58:47Speaker 03

  Right. Well, I would hold on to Tatum and Brown as long as possible.

• 1:58:50Bill Simmons?

  The, yeah, cause everybody always thinks Jalen's the one that they would trade, but, um, as you know, and this is why with the Durant stuff, I, I just, I'm doing a lot of yeah, butting with the Durant stuff. Like, well, they're going to trade Durant. It's like, okay, cool. He makes $55 million a year and everybody is handcuffed by this tax in some way. It's not that, it's not easy like it was. It's not easy to just get somebody that's making 55 to 60.

• 1:59:16Speaker 03

  I agree. A Durant trade is going to be complicated because if, I don't know what Kevin wants and I would never, I've learned my lesson not to guess what Kevin wants. If he wants to go to a contender, that contender is going to have a high payroll. Probably, you know, that those trades are hard. The Suns are in the second apron.

• 1:59:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, also, if you're trading him to a team that's over an apron, then once we start getting into the, I can only take one guy back and it's, it's really stupid.

• 1:59:45Speaker 03

  So I would just like, I wrote a story about the Suns.

• 1:59:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:49Speaker 03

  Published this week. I mentioned in there with the help of Bobby Marks, Devin Booker is eligible for a two-year extension this year. For a hundred and fifty million. I'm going to say that again. He's eligible for an extension for two years and one fifty. That's seventy-five million a year.

• 2:00:10Bill Simmons?

  Wow. Nobody's even at sixty-five yet, right?

• 2:00:12Speaker 03

  Because it's, it's three years from now.

• 2:00:15Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:00:16Speaker 03

  Okay. So, and we're projecting the cap out there, but the cap is going to go.

• 2:00:19Bill Simmons?

  Not on my L N B A team, Devin Booker.

• 2:00:21Speaker 03

  We didn't have a good year. But forget about that. My point is, is that the max contracts are headed towards seventy-five million a year. Not in twenty thirty-five. I'm talking about if Devin gets the max this summer, which quite frankly, I don't know how they're going to get away with not paying him. Because if you don't pay him, then what sort of message are you sending?

• 2:00:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, you could call Daryl Morey and ask how that worked out.

• 2:00:45Speaker 03

  Well, that's true. Devin's twenty-eight, though. He's not thirty-four.

• 2:00:49Bill Simmons?

  I don't know where this goes because I think I've talked to a bunch of people about it on both sides. And just the owners in general, they're always going to be smarter and they're always going to get whatever they want to get done, actually get done. And they're trying to put in all these protections basically against themselves. They're basically childproofing all of, all of the, you know, electrical outlets around their house because they don't want to stick, have their kids stick their finger in.

• 2:01:18Speaker 03

  That's exactly, that's a good, that's a good.

• 2:01:19Bill Simmons?

  They have like eight owners who will just say, oh, what's this? And they get electrocuted. And that's all they care about. And. And I don't think the players, I just don't think they saw their side, I don't think saw it correctly. And they didn't see how hard this was going to be with keeping teams together, keeping players in cities. And eventually I think there's going to be a backlash with the salaries. We're going to move toward a little bit more like the Hollywood system where you have your two guys on the poster. And then everybody else is way down there and I don't think the union realizes that.

• 2:01:49Speaker 03

  I think the Clippers are ahead of the, the Clippers were targeted.

• 2:01:53Bill Simmons?

  Perfect.

• 2:01:54Speaker 03

  The Clippers figured this out first. Number one, when they negotiate with Kawhi, he didn't get the max. He got close to the max. This was, in my view, this is going to be the new normal. The idea that these guys in mid-career, oh, it's time for a contract extension. You want the max, here you go. They're going to get extended, but they're not going to get, they're not just going to be assumption. You're not going to, how many max, how many guys right now are making the max contract? Now, I'm not talking about their max because this is a thing the agents play and we help them with it in the media. I'm not looking to, but like a player's max is the most he can get versus the actual max. How many guys right now in the league are making the quote unquote max? There's dozens. Three years from now, I think there's going to be a third of that.

• 2:02:34Bill Simmons?

  So you think it's going to be like more of a Jalen Brunson type of situation?

• 2:02:37Speaker 03

  I think in a situation with Jalen Brunson, you're going to, it's going to, there's teams are going to, I think he's still signed for less than he could have got. The teams are going to, they're going to, they're going to give them, they're going to get hundreds of millions, but they're not going to all of us just get the max. Like you're not going to get, okay, mid-career all-star player. You're not getting 35%.

• 2:02:56Bill Simmons?

  So you don't think we'll see Bradley Beal getting a no trade clause and 50 million again?

• 2:03:00Speaker 03

  That would be a good thing is to put in a little canister, you know, for the future. When is the next no trade clause? Well, I know LeBron will get it when he opts out and re-ups this year with the Lakers. But when is the next new no trade clause coming?

• 2:03:13Bill Simmons?

  You think LeBron will get a no trade?

• 2:03:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think he will.

• 2:03:16Bill Simmons?

  Again?

• 2:03:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. Why would he, why, why, why would he, he would just opt in if he, he has to get it?

• 2:03:22Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes. Yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FTIC. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever

• 2:04:05Bill Simmons?

  sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This LeBron thing is, I, I just don't understand. Like, I, I voted for him second team NBA.

• 2:04:30Speaker 03

  So did I. So did I.

• 2:04:33Bill Simmons?

  He entered the league. I'd been, I'd been working for ESPN, I think, for a year. I had, I did have a dog at that point. I think I was married, no kids. Like, this is, I, I, I just don't get it.

• 2:04:49Speaker 03

  Bill, I had a flip phone. He had a flip phone. Like, it was laughable. The iPhone was, when he came in the league, we were four years away from Twitter. We were three, four years away from the iPhone. Like, I just.

• 2:05:03Bill Simmons?

  Like, the Hummer was a car that mattered.

• 2:05:05Speaker 03

  Yes. When he came into the league, I remember my first trade deadline covering the Cavs. This is how trade deadline day went. I went to practice, the shoot around, or it was practice. I did my post-practice interview. I went to lunch. I was at lunch, eating a sandwich. My cellphone rings. Hello, Jim Paxton, the gentleman at the Cavs. Hey.

• 2:05:29Speaker 03

  Hey, I just want to let you know, we traded for Flip Murray. Oh, really? What'd you trade for him? 2004 second round pick. Okay, why'd you trade for him? Why is he gonna help us with scoring off the bench? Okay, I'll see you tomorrow. But keep eating my lunch. You know, two hours later, went home, then I wrote my story that published in the newspaper in the morning. None of this minute by minute, trying to find out like who was getting traded like.

• 2:05:53Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:05:54Speaker 03

  The general manager called them and was like, hey, we made a trade. Oh, really? You know, like, that's how you found out about trades. When the Cavs traded for Shaquille O'Neal, and that was not in 2000, that was not 1997. That was like, actually, like, that was in the Twitter era. That was like 2009, 2010, I think 2009. Danny Ferry just called me up. He's like, yeah, we traded for Shaquille O'Neal. Oh, okay. What'd you give? Like, it'd be Ben Wallace in the first round? That's how it happened. You weren't like waiting, you know, on top of it, you know.

• 2:06:29Bill Simmons?

  It was basically the ticker on ESPN.

• 2:06:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:06:32Bill Simmons?

  Was breaking a lot of stuff. Even the website wasn't really, um, I was writing for it at that point. It wasn't really set up to be like, oh, this happened, boom, let's go.

• 2:06:42Speaker 03

  And in 2009, Twitter was around, but people weren't paying attention as a news feed.

• 2:06:46Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 2:06:47Speaker 03

  So it like, you know, like.

• 2:06:48Bill Simmons?

  Twitter was like, there was two years, everybody just went on Twitter to like, make jokes.

• 2:06:53Speaker 03

  Yes, that was LeBron's, that was LeBron, that was, that was happening in LeBron's career. Like, that's how it was, was, and now look at.

• 2:07:01Bill Simmons?

  It's pretty nuts. I even think like how different things were just from, you go the, the year that, the year that Twitter took off, oh, nine. And there were all these stages with Twitter, right? Like, the decision was the stage. The, the Blake Griffin being the first kind of guy who, when he dunked, maybe you could see some grainy video of it on Twitter.

• 2:07:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:07:24Bill Simmons?

  And he became the first like social media dunk guy. Then the DeAndre Jordan thing was another great one, where that was in real time, we're following through Twitter, how that's going. So it's had these iterations.

• 2:07:36Speaker 03

  My first big Twitter thing was, um, the LeBron free agent meetings. Because nowadays, the free agent meetings, like, first off, like, by July 1st, they're all done. Nobody goes on free agent meeting tours anymore. Secondly, they do it all in secret, you know. It's people's houses and stuff.

• 2:07:55Bill Simmons?

  Or three, four months before free agency starts.

• 2:07:57Speaker 03

  Or a year.

• 2:07:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Or, oh, I didn't realize you were gonna be at this dinner.

• 2:08:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:03Bill Simmons?

  With the owner of the team that has cap space.

• 2:08:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:08:06Bill Simmons?

  Have you met him? This is Bob.

• 2:08:08Speaker 03

  Listen, I saw Joel Embiid and Paul George on the countdown set during the finals last year.

• 2:08:14Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:08:15Speaker 03

  That was an amazing moment. It was an amazing moment. And you know, Joel gave him the side eye. I mean, like, it's a little bit manufactured. Obviously, Joel and Paul George had communicated before that meeting, like.

• 2:08:25Bill Simmons?

  All these dudes know each other.

• 2:08:27Speaker 03

  Of course. Well, anyway, the day of the free agent meetings, like, was three days. You know, they were having them at this office building in Cleveland and the teams are just walking into the lobby and I was just sitting in the lobby. I was just tweeting it.

• 2:08:43Speaker 03

  Jim Dolan just came in. Pat Riley is waiting outside the elevator. I remember the Clippers got there, the heat ran really late and there was no place for the Clippers to wait. And Neil O'Shea and Andy Roser.

• 2:08:55Bill Simmons?

  Oh, God.

• 2:08:56Speaker 03

  Just were standing there in the hallway and just walking back and forth, waiting for Pat Riley and Eric Spoelstra and Mickey Aronson to finish. And I was just live tweeting it. I was just live tweeting it. Like, I was like, well, Mikail Prokhorov just left, but Jay-Z is staying back. He must be having a special meeting with LeBron. I was just tweeting what I saw. And like nowadays, you'd never get that. But like, I think I had 14,000 Twitter followers at the beginning of that.

• 2:09:23Speaker 03

  And three days later, I had like 32,000, which blew my mind.

• 2:09:27Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 2:09:27Speaker 03

  But that was like an actual event where like, I was just like, just nobody was saying, it wasn't like Mickey Aronson was saying, yep, we got it done. I was just tweeting what I was sitting there watching. I was just standing in the elevator lobby. I was sitting in the elevator lobby, watching.

• 2:09:41Bill Simmons?

  And then every time you think we're post Twitter, then something like the Luca thing happens. And then it's, there you go. When did you find out? Did you find out?

• 2:09:51Speaker 03

  Shams tweeted, I had no idea it was coming. I did not know. Most of the time you know when stuff's coming, like we do, like, you know, you can't always, sometimes you know something's gonna happen and you're just waiting, you know, in our case, it's almost always Shams. Shams knows it. He's got the story written. He's got the tweet in the drafts and he's waiting. That happened this week with, with Mike Budenholzer.

• 2:10:15Bill Simmons?

  I'm sure there was a David Griffin typed out tweet there too.

• 2:10:19Speaker 03

  I don't know that for sure.

• 2:10:21Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm just saying.

• 2:10:22Speaker 03

  Without pulling the curtain back too much, Shams had the Mike Budenholzer story written before he was actually fired.

• 2:10:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:28Speaker 03

  Because Shams is on top of it.

• 2:10:29Bill Simmons?

  I mean, he could have written in February.

• 2:10:31Speaker 03

  Well, that's a different, that was a different thing. But the Luca thing came out of absolutely nowhere.

• 2:10:38Bill Simmons?

  So what is your honest take for how many people knew before the trade came out?

• 2:10:44Speaker 03

  I know you and I are on different sides of this. I think it was a small number. It's bigger than the purported number, like whatever they said, but you know, I think it was a small number.

• 2:10:54Bill Simmons?

  I think it was bigger.

• 2:10:55Speaker 03

  I know you do.

• 2:10:56Bill Simmons?

  And I think about an hour and a half before, when Utah found out who was in the trade, then it's out. And I think it's out at that point. And I'm actually, and my theory was that even if they were telling other people they thought Luca was about to get traded, who would have ever believed that in a million years? And it was like, you might as well have said a UFO just landed on, on my roof. Right? There's no way to even conceivably think that was possible.

• 2:11:24Speaker 03

  So the only thing is, the only thing I'll say is, I wondered if Anthony Davis was, was wearing thin in LA because he had done that interview where he's like, get me a center.

• 2:11:36Bill Simmons?

  He 100% was.

• 2:11:38Speaker 03

  Okay. So when I saw that, like a lot of people, I actually listened, there were two Lakers podcasts that I listened to afterwards.

• 2:11:45Bill Simmons?

  Look at you.

• 2:11:46Speaker 03

  Where the people, because the Lakers had had a game that night, I think in New York.

• 2:11:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. LeBron was awesome in the game, which I thought, looking back is also really interesting. He was very energized in the two games leading up to.

• 2:11:58Speaker 03

  I don't want to like, give this away because it's not my story to tell. So I'll just tell half of it. Um, one of my ESPN, so the, so the Lakers were in New York.

• 2:12:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:08Speaker 03

  And one of my ESPN colleagues ran into JJ Reddick in New York that day.

• 2:12:15Speaker 03

  And they knew JJ and obviously, hey JJ, what's up? He's like, hey, I, I gotta go, I gotta go on a walk. I gotta, I gotta clear, I, I gotta clear my head about something. Like he like excused himself and kept going. And so JJ knew and like went out for like a walk.

• 2:12:31Bill Simmons?

  That's one of the.

• 2:12:32Speaker 03

  But you know, the person obviously didn't know, you know, but JJ.

• 2:12:36Bill Simmons?

  If people think JJ and Jason Kidd didn't know.

• 2:12:39Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 2:12:40Bill Simmons?

  Couple of days before that trade, there's, I, I just, there's no way.

• 2:12:44Speaker 03

  Well, whether it was days or hours, yes, the coaches knew before Shams tweeted it. Yes, of course.

• 2:12:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. But like. You read, people honestly think like LeBron and Rich didn't know that that trade was coming and that Davis was just like, yeah, I'll just wave by no trade. I just found out about this trade a minute ago. Get the fuck out of here.

• 2:13:00Speaker 03

  Talking about the trade kicker. Yes, that is, that is suspicious.

• 2:13:04Bill Simmons?

  Suspicious.

• 2:13:06Speaker 03

  Like, I don't, I don't.

• 2:13:07Bill Simmons?

  He loved being in LA, loved being in the Lakers and the whole thing. And he's just, all right, fine, cool. I'm gonna, you know, not only am I okay with the trade, I'm gonna give up money?

• 2:13:17Speaker 03

  In advance, it's just, cause like according to Palenka, they negotiated for a month.

• 2:13:21Bill Simmons?

  I think, I think they knew, I would say, I don't know for sure, but I'm excited for when it all finally comes out. And I'm sure there's going to be a now, as Brian Curtis would say, a now they tell us.

• 2:13:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:13:31Bill Simmons?

  I can't wait for the now they tell us, cause I think the circle is wider.

• 2:13:36Speaker 03

  I think they, I think Rich and LeBron knew, but it wasn't too far. Like I believe them.

• 2:13:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, Rich definitely knew because he had to, you know, eight, the trade couldn't have happened if AD didn't wave the trade kicker.

• 2:13:50Speaker 03

  No, the trade.

• 2:13:50Bill Simmons?

  Way more complicated.

• 2:13:51Speaker 03

  The trade could have happened, but I agree, that's a flaw in my thinking. I agree. And I asked Rich about that.

• 2:13:58Bill Simmons?

  That's the red herring of this whole thing.

• 2:14:00Speaker 03

  I asked.

• 2:14:00Bill Simmons?

  And also, do you think they really would have traded LeBron's guy, Anthony Davis,

• 2:14:06Bill Simmons?

  to another team and just not tell LeBron?

• 2:14:08Speaker 03

  What you are saying.

• 2:14:10Bill Simmons?

  Really? We really think they're not doing that?

• 2:14:11Speaker 03

  What you are saying makes sense, but they, they were focused on keeping this quiet.

• 2:14:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think they did keep it quiet, but at some point.

• 2:14:19Speaker 03

  But again, what's your standard? Is your standard that they knew one hour early or that they knew three days early? Because I think they knew maybe one hour early.

• 2:14:28Speaker 03

  Is that advanced notice?

• 2:14:29Bill Simmons?

  If I had to bet on a scenario, I would bet that probably two, three, four days earlier.

• 2:14:36Speaker 03

  I don't believe that. I know.

• 2:14:37Bill Simmons?

  No, that the trade wasn't done.

• 2:14:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:14:40Bill Simmons?

  But I think it probably got to the point where they were like, I gotta bring you in on this. I think we actually have a chance to do this. And that's when you expand it to the coaches. I just, I know how the league works and so do you. You don't just hide shit from your best players. Nobody does that.

• 2:14:57Speaker 03

  I think.

• 2:14:58Bill Simmons?

  And that's why the Durant thing was so crazy, that they were shopping him around and not talking to him and Rich Kleiman about it.

• 2:15:04Speaker 03

  That is what they were trying to do it. The reason that got out, I'll tell you, I mean, like.

• 2:15:09Bill Simmons?

  Who's the other teams?

• 2:15:10Speaker 03

  Well, that's the thing that the Suns can't execute. They're so hamstrung with their thing. They can't execute. There was, there was a, I won't go into, there was a third team involved and the third team was negotiating

• 2:15:23Speaker 03

  with the Warriors on a separate trade.

• 2:15:25Bill Simmons?

  Right? Was it in Miami?

• 2:15:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. So Miami is negotiating with the Warriors on Jimmy Butler and they're, they're trading, they're trading proposals. And then all of a sudden the Warriors change a proposal. And the Heat noticed that one of the assets being offered was owned by the Suns.

• 2:15:43Speaker 03

  Now, I'm not saying that Miami leaked it because Miami doesn't leak anything, but the talks with other teams.

• 2:15:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:49Speaker 03

  That's how it got out.

• 2:15:50Bill Simmons?

  But that's why it's so hard to do three, 14, because every team has the six people in the front office and one person, who knows how much you can trust that one person out of the six.

• 2:16:00Speaker 03

  Of course, which is one of the reasons why the Heat are so good, because the Heat speak with one voice, like.

• 2:16:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:06Speaker 03

  It's Andy Ellisberg. You deal with the Heat, you deal with the Andy Ellisberg. Obviously at some point, especially this type of trade, maybe Mickey Arison or Andy Pat Riley. But when you negotiate with the Heat, you negotiate with one person. You negotiate with the other team, sometimes it's three or four, but. That they were trying to keep it quiet because when you don't keep it quiet is when things fall apart and that's what happened there.

• 2:16:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:25Speaker 03

  I think they I think they kept it quiet. I really do. I and I and maybe when now they tell us I'll look like a fool, but in this case.

• 2:16:32Bill Simmons?

  I don't think you look like a fool because I think they've all stuck to their story, but I just I think Kid knew and I think Reddick knew and I think they knew for a while.

• 2:16:38Speaker 03

  Well, I love listening to these two lake. There were two, maybe there's even more. The Lakers had a game that night in New York. They won. The Laker fan pods are our analysis pods, whatever you want to call them, are recording after the game. They're looking over the been over the Knicks and I loved it. I listened to them learn, learn it live.

• 2:16:57Bill Simmons?

  Oh, interesting.

• 2:16:58Speaker 03

  I mean, I wasn't listening live. I was listening back to it. Somebody sent it to me and said, listen to these guys because it's hilarious when you know, you have the knowledge and you're, you're listening to them and you can watch them like they're like, well, oh, Shams got hacked, you know?

• 2:17:14Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:17:14Speaker 03

  And they're like, that kind of, that kind of be crazy, wouldn't it? Like, all right. And that third quarter tonight, they did a real good job in the pick and roll. ESPN just tweeted it. Like it's, it's almost like a movie and they're like, oh my God, like it's, and you know, and I love that. It was like one of my favorite, like I use, I love it when, um, when you see, uh, I remember when this became a thing on SportsCenter when they, when like last decade, when people would videotape themselves watching the end of sporting events. Like I remember the.

• 2:17:44Bill Simmons?

  That sounded like the World Cup was a big one for that. One of the World Cups.

• 2:17:47Speaker 03

  The one I remember was, do you remember the, um, the Alabama Auburn game where they returned?

• 2:17:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:52Speaker 03

  The field goal?

• 2:17:53Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 2:17:53Speaker 03

  The short field goal was too short and he returned it 108 yards. One of the great things I ever saw on SportsCenter was the Auburn and Alabama fans, the Alabama fans thinking they're about to win it and they're horrified and the Auburn fans thinking they're about to lose it. And there was like all this stuff and then like seeing like the Cavs fans in 2016, watching the end of a lot of people videotape themselves watching the end of game seven. Amazing. I just, I have great memories of that. This was what that was like. You could watch it. So anyway, the shock of it was one of the reasons why it was such an amazing story.

• 2:18:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, and it was a shock that everybody could feel, whether you covered the league, talked about the league, wrote about the league, liked the league, were dating or married to somebody who was involved in basketball. Everyone had the same sort of, you remember where you were when it happened. It's such a rare thing for sports. Like even the decision, I don't remember where I was when that happened because you knew it was coming. You know, I remember watching it. I don't remember where I watched it. This, I was watching a movie with my wife and I remember where we were.

• 2:18:55Speaker 03

  But the reason that I believed it in the real time, because I didn't know it was coming, was that I thought, I was in the back of my head, I was like, I wonder if AD is greasing the skids on, you know, on his time in LA. Like, it was not something I thought was going to happen at this trade deadline.

• 2:19:09Bill Simmons?

  I don't think that thing went over well when he was complaining about stuff.

• 2:19:12Speaker 03

  I know it's

• 2:19:13Bill Simmons?

  It's tough to complain when you're either guy, when they gave up like 10 assets to put the two together. That's where, that's where I started having issues.

• 2:19:22Speaker 03

  Like, I think the issue might have been that he was talking to Shams about it and not talking to Planka and Judy about it. I think that's where the issue may have been. Like, what he was asking for was not unreasonable.

• 2:19:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:34Speaker 03

  The venue which he asked for, I think. But I don't think that they were like, let's get rid of AD. I think that

• 2:19:41Bill Simmons?

  Now, look, this is a once in a lifetime situation. And as Russell and I talked about on Sunday, to do that without Reeves is the craziest part of the whole thing.

• 2:19:50Speaker 03

  Well, to me, like

• 2:19:51Bill Simmons?

  I just don't understand how Reeves isn't in the deal. I'll never understand that for the rest of my life.

• 2:19:54Speaker 03

  This is what Bob, so like, you know, when you were doing Countdown, you would talk with Magic and you would, I was never there, but you had described these amazing conversations with Magic during the games.

• 2:20:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:20:07Speaker 03

  You know, I've gotten to do Countdown about a dozen times this year. I've gotten to do it about half of those with Bob Myers. It's, I

• 2:20:13Bill Simmons?

  Because you're hanging out for six hours.

• 2:20:15Speaker 03

  Yes. And, you know, I covered all these Warriors Cavs series and just the way Bob and I, the way Bob talks about the league, like, I'll bet he gets a job offer every day. Like, the way he views the league, like, and the part of it is because he's so successful and comfortable and he doesn't have to worry about like, you know, part of it is the space he's in. Listening to Bob talk about the league.

• 2:20:42Speaker 03

  Privately,

• 2:20:45Speaker 03

  you can see why every owner would want to hire him.

• 2:20:48Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:20:48Speaker 03

  Because the way and what he does on TV, I think is great. I don't think actually he gets, of course, I'm biased. He's my teammate. The way he, the way he talks about the league, like the way he talked last week about, I can't remember it was some front, oh, some front office challenge like, oh, it was a Michael Malone firing. Like he talked about that whole thing. Like what he was saying was like literally worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in consulting money, like if he had consulted with the team. But anyway, he feels the same way I do. I feel good that I'm on the same side as him, which is he can get to a spot where he sees why they traded Luca. He doesn't agree with it and nor do I.

• 2:21:29Speaker 03

  But he can see why, he can see how the Mavericks got to it. They didn't want to pay him the 300 million, whatever. They have more information about Luca than anybody. He can even get himself to the spot where they said, we want Anthony Davis. That's going to be our guy. And so can I. I can get to a spot.

• 2:21:45Speaker 03

  Again, I wouldn't do it, but I can even, I can see how, I can, if I put myself-

• 2:21:49Bill Simmons?

  Him as the centerpiece of a Luca trade.

• 2:21:51Speaker 03

  I can see how Anthony Davis is a guy they wanted. Like this is what we're going to do.

• 2:21:56Speaker 03

  And even those two steps are big steps. A lot of people, and I think probably about every Dallas fan couldn't make the two steps that I just made. But I've been around the league. I can see it.

• 2:22:06Speaker 03

  The return is what I can't, I can't square. That's where I, that's where I stop. I stop right there because here's the thing. Reeves makes, Reeves has one of the best value contracts in the league.

• 2:22:18Bill Simmons?

  And he's gotten better every year.

• 2:22:20Speaker 03

  I just voted for him for most improved. I, I had a real problem for most improved.

• 2:22:23Bill Simmons?

  Came so close.

• 2:22:24Speaker 03

  I had a, look, the most improved-

• 2:22:25Bill Simmons?

  What'd you do for your three?

• 2:22:28Speaker 03

  Reeves.

• 2:22:29Bill Simmons?

  Reeves won?

• 2:22:31Speaker 03

  Reeves won.

• 2:22:31Bill Simmons?

  Ah, man. I-

• 2:22:33Speaker 03

  Zubac, I think I had Zubac. No. Uh, I had Denny Avia.

• 2:22:38Bill Simmons?

  I looked at him, but his numbers were basically the same. House loved him last year in Washington. He was mad they got rid of him.

• 2:22:44Speaker 03

  One of the reasons why Joe Cronin got extended in Portland was because of, that was so good of a trade that was.

• 2:22:48Bill Simmons?

  I did, uh, I did Daniels. I mean, I thought Daniels was a no brainer.

• 2:22:51Speaker 03

  Totally. I'm a big, he plays internationally. You know, I like-

• 2:22:55Bill Simmons?

  I did Brown on Denver.

• 2:22:58Bill Simmons?

  And I did.

• 2:22:58Speaker 03

  Totally acceptable.

• 2:22:59Bill Simmons?

  And I did Kamara, who I couldn't believe wasn't in the discussion for any of this stuff. Like, who the fuck knew who that guy was a year ago?

• 2:23:06Speaker 03

  Kamara in my all defensive team.

• 2:23:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:09Speaker 03

  All of those are good. I'm not gonna try to. It's a, it's a bleep show.

• 2:23:12Bill Simmons?

  No, I looked at the Reeves thing. I, he was, I had four guys I liked and the only thing with Reeves was I liked him last year. I didn't, like, how much did he improve? He was really good last year.

• 2:23:21Speaker 03

  Look, again, Team USA, I fell in love with him in the summer of 23. I wasn't, he was already a no, it's like.

• 2:23:29Bill Simmons?

  Why didn't you tell San Antonio? He could've saved all of us. A lot of issues here.

• 2:23:33Speaker 03

  So I was, because Steve Kerr is such a wonderful guy.

• 2:23:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:38Speaker 03

  Steve Kerr led the media for that summer in 23. We were sort of embedded with the team. Me and Joe Varden of The Athletic, we were the only people really traveling with them.

• 2:23:49Speaker 03

  We went on the team bus when they went to the Grand Mosque. We flew on the team plane.

• 2:23:56Speaker 03

  Uh, Tim Reynolds from the AP was also there, uh, the three of us. And, um, I was riding the bus with the players, I think to the airport or somewhere, and the players were questioning Austin about the contract.

• 2:24:11Bill Simmons?

  He'd already signed it, right?

• 2:24:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Cause you know, and he's like, you know, he's like, he's like, well, you know, I, I mean, this is all off the record. I shouldn't say what he said, but they were.

• 2:24:19Bill Simmons?

  No, I know this story because he was an undrafted free agent.

• 2:24:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, he wanted to make sure.

• 2:24:22Bill Simmons?

  Nobody really came after him and.

• 2:24:24Speaker 03

  The, the Spurs really seriously looked at it. The, the Lakers were given a gift when the Spurs didn't offer him the offer sheet. They were given a gift and they were able to get him on a, on a deal. Now, what Austin got was he got a player option after year three. Because the Lakers were not incentivized to give that to him. There was no offer.

• 2:24:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, and they knew that there was no, the Spurs, what I heard, the Spurs just kind of farted around with it for a few days. And he started to panic that he wasn't going to get any offer. And I think the Lakers strong-armed him.

• 2:24:52Speaker 03

  And.

• 2:24:52Bill Simmons?

  Palenka being a former agent, I think in situations like that really helps him.

• 2:24:58Speaker 03

  I will say that he got the player option. So after next year, he can opt out. And if he didn't get that and he was under this contract for two more years, so like. It was a victory for him and his agent that, you know, because when you're a restricted free agent, you're screwed.

• 2:25:12Bill Simmons?

  You usually don't get the PO.

• 2:25:13Speaker 03

  So he got the player option without a good, if he got an offer sheet, but he didn't get an offer sheet.

• 2:25:17Bill Simmons?

  Now he's in the best situation.

• 2:25:19Speaker 03

  And he's guaranteed himself tens of millions of dollars.

• 2:25:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:22Speaker 03

  And so his set for life, his family is taken care of and he's got a player option after year three. He did okay, but the players in the, on the team were like talking about like, yeah, man, we, because he was, he was great for team USA. I realize nobody watched it. I understand that. And defensively, he was taken advantage of late in the rounds. The teams targeted him.

• 2:25:41Bill Simmons?

  But at least he gives a shit. He, there's guys who get taken advantage of, but at least they fight. And he'll at least fight, you know, we're going to see it in the playoffs. Everybody's going to target him for free rounds.

• 2:25:51Speaker 03

  There's no way you were part of team USA. I actually almost didn't vote for him for most improved because in my mind, he had already improved.

• 2:25:58Bill Simmons?

  That's why I didn't vote for Cade.

• 2:26:00Speaker 03

  Well.

• 2:26:01Bill Simmons?

  Cause I was like, Cade was the number one pick. Like he's year three, he's supposed to be this good.

• 2:26:05Speaker 03

  You can't give a guy on a max contract most improved. No offense to Cade.

• 2:26:08Bill Simmons?

  Or year four.

• 2:26:08Speaker 03

  Cade was on my all in the team, but um, so yes, so the,

• 2:26:15Bill Simmons?

  I had Cade.

• 2:26:17Speaker 03

  If Austin Reeves was making 37 million dollars. Okay.

• 2:26:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:21Speaker 03

  The Mavericks could look at you and say, well, look, we can't have Kyrie and AD and, and Austin Reeves all making, you know, 40 million dollars because we can't do that. If that was the case, I would get it. Like, okay, you can't do the trade. He's making like 14 million dollars and next year he's making like 15 million dollars. Like it's the, one of the top five value contract, well, top 10 value contracts in the league.

• 2:26:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And he's, and he's one of the best 45 guys in the league right now. That's 45, 50, wherever you want to put him. So at least if it's a two for one, you can talk yourself into it.

• 2:26:55Speaker 03

  Yes. So that's my, like, in my mind, they should have gotten Reeves and the other first round pick and the pick swap. They should have gotten all of them. And, and, and I know what, what's been said, what's been said is that when Jeannie Buss heard about this, she said, we're not trading. And I'm sure Rob Linkin didn't want to trade him either. I'm, I'm not saying Rob wanted.

• 2:27:13Bill Simmons?

  Eventually, we're going to lose Luca unless we don't do this. They're trading.

• 2:27:17Speaker 03

  The excuse.

• 2:27:20Speaker 03

  That comes out is that no, Jeannie Buss said Austin Reeves is not being traded. And I'm like, okay, then hang up, then hang up the phone. Like you, we're trading you Luka Doncic, you give us what we want.

• 2:27:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:31Speaker 03

  Like you.

• 2:27:32Bill Simmons?

  Fine, I'll shop him.

• 2:27:33Speaker 03

  Right, like, so I.

• 2:27:34Bill Simmons?

  Let me see what I can get for him then.

• 2:27:36Speaker 03

  So I just, I disagree with the trade because as critical as I've been of Luca, I recognize he's a top 10 player, top 5 player, top 3, whatever you want to say, like you dream of having a player like that. He's an imperfect player, but I can close my eyes and I can see him holding the Larry O'Brien trophy in one hand and holding the Bill Russell trophy in the other. I see it, I can see it multiple times. I would not trade a player like that.

• 2:28:00Bill Simmons?

  Sounds like a nightmare.

• 2:28:00Speaker 03

  At least not age 25.

• 2:28:02Bill Simmons?

  Wearing a Laker uniform.

• 2:28:03Speaker 03

  Sounds terrible. You should feel that way. And so I'm saying.

• 2:28:07Bill Simmons?

  We were almost done with this Lakers team.

• 2:28:11Bill Simmons?

  I mean, they were, this was it. They were last legs.

• 2:28:14Speaker 03

  But one of the great lines, I, when, you remember when, uh, when they had the press conference and Palenka was wearing that leather jacket?

• 2:28:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:21Speaker 03

  At the press conference?

• 2:28:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:24Speaker 03

  I was texting with a, a high ranking executive from their team and he was watching at the same time. I go, hey, what do you think of this Palenka jacket? You know, because it was not, it was not normal press conference wear.

• 2:28:34Bill Simmons?

  No, he looked like a John Wick villain or something.

• 2:28:37Speaker 03

  And he goes, after that trade, he could wear a Speedo.

• 2:28:41Speaker 03

  And it was just like, right, it was like, yeah, like.

• 2:28:46Bill Simmons?

  Unbelievable. Well, I think it was the, honestly, the greatest thing that ever could happen to Luka Doncic. Like we talk about.

• 2:28:53Speaker 03

  Well.

• 2:28:53Bill Simmons?

  Cause not only do you go to a bigger market, you're a bigger star and a team that has, you know, big resources, you get to play on a team that has a chance to win the title right now, but also like they lit a fire under him and sometimes people need that in life, you know?

• 2:29:07Speaker 03

  That's what I think is, I mean, his agent, Bill Duffy, is one of the great agents of the last 40 years. He's a Hall of Famer. I don't know if he's actually in the Hall, I don't know if they put agents in the Hall.

• 2:29:18Bill Simmons?

  He was more ripped shit than anybody.

• 2:29:20Speaker 03

  But what I think with Bill Duffy, basically, you know, I shouldn't maybe share everything, but no, Bill's thing was they traded you the Lakers. So like, you know, Luca is abs, as you can see from the tears.

• 2:29:31Bill Simmons?

  Devastating.

• 2:29:33Speaker 03

  It's like they traded you to the Lakers.

• 2:29:34Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:29:35Speaker 03

  So let's, let's take a step back and evaluate, you know, that you were traded to the Lakers. Um, and I think Luca is coming around on that. We'll find out this summer because he's got to sign the extension.

• 2:29:48Bill Simmons?

  We'll find out in the playoffs how he does and how everything fits in. And we're going to find out how the LeBron Luca together, you know, which I think, I think LeBron's handled great so far. Is it going to be a little different in a game four when you're down two, one in the series? And who gets the bomb? I'm, I can't wait for all that stuff.

• 2:30:04Speaker 03

  But isn't this, isn't this like great for LeBron?

• 2:30:07Bill Simmons?

  It's great for the league. It's great for us. It's great for LeBron.

• 2:30:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:30:11Bill Simmons?

  And LeBron's never been in a situation where he clearly wasn't the most talented guy in his own team. Now he's aged 40. If this was 2012 LeBron, it'd be a little different, but the only time I can remember even close was that first Miami season that you covered. Cause Wade was incredible that year.

• 2:30:28Speaker 03

  LeBron was in his headspace was in a completely different.

• 2:30:29Bill Simmons?

  And LeBron was, yeah, LeBron was a mess for a variety of reasons and Wade was awesome. That was probably the last great Wade season.

• 2:30:36Speaker 03

  Dwyane Wade was so great in that 2011 finals.

• 2:30:40Bill Simmons?

  Um, one of the best, that was that game three? He was the game they won.

• 2:30:45Speaker 03

  They won game three to go two, one.

• 2:30:47Bill Simmons?

  Awesome in that game. He was, I, I feel like he's weirdly become underrated now because his prime wasn't kind of as long as it should have been.

• 2:30:55Speaker 03

  I've said this and it's kind of laughable, but league pass wasn't as much of a thing. We, we couldn't watch it on our phones. But in 2010, when I moved to Miami, obviously Dwyane Wade was already on his way to being a Hall of Famer. He had already been a finals MVP. But until I watched him play 82 games or whatever he played, 75 games.

• 2:31:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:16Speaker 03

  Night in and night out covering the Heat. I didn't appreciate how freaking good he was. Like 25 games into that season as you know, the heat that was very dramatic. I remember thinking, my God, is he good? And I know that's kind of weird to say, but like I had such an appreciation for how good he was.

• 2:31:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, I felt like in, and I remember writing this in oh nine, when he was stuck on pretty bad Miami team and he kind of carried them, got them in the playoffs. But I just felt like he was as good as Kobe for a couple of years there. And I don't think people, you know, I have Kobe as one of the 10 best players of all time. Like I, I wouldn't say that lightly. But I think Wade's, Wade's best was as good as Kobe's best. And I, I think you saw it in the oh six finals, like. If he really wanted to be great, you could really build the right team around him and he could carry somebody to the top of the mountain. Kobe did it way longer and you know, I think the the problem for Wade is he had a six year peak.

• 2:32:14Speaker 03

  But he got hurt.

• 2:32:15Bill Simmons?

  He got hurt a bunch of times, but his peak was basically from oh six to 11. Kobe Kobe had the first peak and then I had the second peak from like oh eight to you know, 2012 where he had like almost a whole second career.

• 2:32:29Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 2:32:30Bill Simmons?

  And Wade was like basically by the 2014 finals wasn't an impact guy anymore.

• 2:32:35Speaker 03

  That's right. That's one of the reasons why LeBron left. I mean,

• 2:32:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:38Speaker 03

  There was a number of reasons why he left, but he was looking over at Dwayne and he was like, I don't, you know.

• 2:32:44Bill Simmons?

  I wrote that when it happened that it was always like, he's going back to Cleveland. He's got to be. And I was like, he's, he's dumping this Miami team because he knows, because he's fucking basketball genius. He's like, this is done. I've maximized all of my, uh, my assets out of this team. I'm, I'm out.

• 2:33:01Speaker 03

  One of my most vivid memories of my 22 year career career in the NBA was the locker room after game five of the 2014 finals, the Spurs.

• 2:33:14Speaker 03

  Magical crushed them five, five, four, one. Kawhi was great. The ball's moving. Danny Green doesn't miss for days.

• 2:33:22Bill Simmons?

  We went out to dinner at that finals.

• 2:33:23Speaker 03

  In Miami.

• 2:33:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:27Speaker 03

  I'm in the locker room in, um,

• 2:33:30Speaker 03

  whatever they called the Spurs or AT&T Center, whatever they called it. And Battier retires, which we weren't, which we weren't, um, surprised about.

• 2:33:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:40Speaker 03

  Ray Allen basically retires. That one, we were caught, we were caught off guard.

• 2:33:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. He felt like he had like three more years.

• 2:33:45Speaker 03

  I thought he had one more at least.

• 2:33:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:47Speaker 03

  And he was like, yeah, I think I might be done. And we were like, whoa. Bosch is like genuinely relieved, like not upset, like, like almost like I've unburdened myself.

• 2:34:01Speaker 03

  Haslam, first off, half the team, like, half the team is about to retire. Like, they don't all know it. Like, Rashard Lewis doesn't know what he's done, but he's done. But like, a year later, half the team wasn't, wasn't in the league. And I'll never forget that. It was like, they were happy it was over. It was such a finality. Like, it was almost like senior year. Like, okay, guys.

• 2:34:25Bill Simmons?

  Four years that were like six years.

• 2:34:27Speaker 03

  Exactly. And so, when you look, like LeBron's looking around that room, you know, half the guys are about to retire. You know, Wade is like wheezing, like they spent the whole year. Tim Grover, who was, you know, Jordan's guy, Tim Grover spent the whole, the whole season in Miami, working on Dwyane Wade to get him taped together, to get him to the playoffs. Now, he ended up playing a couple more years, obviously, but like, they spent the whole year just trying to keep him together for the playoffs. LeBron is seeing all that. And he's just like, I thought he maybe would have come back for maybe one more year, just to, just to.

• 2:35:02Bill Simmons?

  I remember everyone got mad at me because on TV, Cleveland won the lottery. And I think, which was, I think before the game, and.

• 2:35:12Speaker 03

  It was in Indianapolis. Another vivid memory.

• 2:35:14Bill Simmons?

  And LeBron had a weird first half. And I think I said something at halftime, like, that was a weird LeBron half. It's almost like it broke his brain that Cleveland was getting the first pick. And that's, because we were talking about that, that whole playoffs, whether he was going to go back there.

• 2:35:28Speaker 03

  It wasn't a good lottery, honestly. It was Wiggins lottery. It wasn't like they had gotten.

• 2:35:32Bill Simmons?

  It was an asset to trade. And, and now with the Kevin Love stuff, it already started.

• 2:35:36Speaker 03

  So, post-game, I can close my eyes and see the locker LeBron sits at. It was, you know, I said, what do you think about Cavs win the lottery? He's like, yeah, pretty amazing, huh? Like, there was a little back and forth after that game, like, because they'd won two years in a row. And like three out of four or something like that. Because they won the Kyrie, Kyrie, Anthony Bennett, Andrew Wiggins.

• 2:36:00Bill Simmons?

  I got mad on TV and then everyone got mad at me about that. I thought it was outrageous that they won three and four years.

• 2:36:06Speaker 03

  Of course it's outrageous.

• 2:36:07Bill Simmons?

  We need rules. How is this?

• 2:36:08Speaker 03

  Of course it's outrageous.

• 2:36:09Bill Simmons?

  Thing that's allowed.

• 2:36:10Speaker 03

  Yes, of course it's outrageous. Yes.

• 2:36:13Bill Simmons?

  They've done a better job with it now, like even, you know, Bob Carrington makes a crazy shot. So Utah's one and, and Washington's two, but they both have 14% odds. And it's not as impactful as I think it would have been.

• 2:36:25Speaker 03

  Having said that, there were like eight teams tanking at the end of this year, something like that.

• 2:36:29Bill Simmons?

  Well, the schedule's too long. It just is.

• 2:36:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:36:32Bill Simmons?

  This is what happens when you're playing for fucking ever. And you know, you get to mid March and eight teams just want the season to be over.

• 2:36:40Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 2:36:41Bill Simmons?

  That's one. Were you touched when LeBron took that shot at you and everybody rallied to your defense? It was like, it was a great online moment for you.

• 2:36:49Speaker 03

  It was.

• 2:36:50Bill Simmons?

  People are very protective of you.

• 2:36:51Speaker 03

  I would prefer that it didn't happen.

• 2:36:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:53Speaker 03

  But I kind of feel like, um, everybody who knows what's going on knew. But everybody who didn't know will forget. So like I, I actually felt like it might have, my concern was that it would damage me with players because he's so influential with players.

• 2:37:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:16Speaker 03

  That hasn't been the case so far. I've had more players come up and not that every, not that all of them are, but I've had more support from players, current and former, than I thought I would get from them. So.

• 2:37:27Bill Simmons?

  It's a weird moment. I don't, to me, I read that as like, man, that's just, he said something and I bet he would take it back a day later.

• 2:37:34Speaker 03

  In all honesty, I don't know because I haven't talked to him. I actually haven't seen him since.

• 2:37:40Speaker 03

  McAfee, I've done McAfee a dozen, I don't know, eight, seven, eight times. There's a, McAfee would put up this photo of where he superimposed me as one of his high school teammates.

• 2:37:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:53Speaker 03

  He always used that photo with, you know, McAfee's show has all these tropes. That is a trope. He's put that photo up a number of times. I don't know what LeBron was thinking, but I kind of think when he saw that photo go up, he thought that was weird. Well, maybe he thinks I'm weird. Maybe, maybe he does. Let's put it this way, there's probably 15 things LeBron could be angry at me about, like that I've said or written over the years that he could legitimately be like, that was wrong, that was unfair. You don't know what you're talking about. Like, and he could have hit me with any of those and I'd been like, you're right. Shouldn't have done that. I was out of line.

• 2:38:30Speaker 03

  But what he accused me of was not one of them. So, but I kind of, I almost kind of think he saw the photo and he thought that was weird and that's what he was reacting to, as if I made the photo or something.

• 2:38:40Bill Simmons?

  Every year you go viral and America's behind you. I don't know.

• 2:38:43Speaker 03

  This is three years in a row for you. I don't know about that.

• 2:38:46Bill Simmons?

  You don't think so?

• 2:38:47Speaker 03

  I think people in media who knew were behind me. I don't know about America.

• 2:38:52Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it was bad for you.

• 2:38:53Speaker 03

  No, I don't, it was fine. I.

• 2:38:57Speaker 03

  Like I said, and I'm not just saying this, like, he doesn't owe me anything. So it's fine.

• 2:39:02Bill Simmons?

  It was a great relationship for all sets.

• 2:39:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, I don't know how he feels about it, but it was a great relationship for me.

• 2:39:08Bill Simmons?

  I do think we are entering in this and we've hit all of these different kind of checkpoints with basketball coverage and this whatever era we're in now where fanbases can be mobilized. If somebody writes or says something that a player doesn't like that, that's a little hairy.

• 2:39:26Speaker 03

  Well, I think it's okay for media to be held accountable.

• 2:39:30Bill Simmons?

  I couldn't agree more. We're supposed to be fair and accurate.

• 2:39:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's fine. But, you know, like,

• 2:39:40Speaker 03

  it, it, I don't think there's an understanding of the job, you know, there's not, there's, there's, that's one thing that's kind of being lost.

• 2:39:47Bill Simmons?

  It's like even you look at the award stuff, which, you know, Zach just dumped his ballot at eventually.

• 2:39:53Speaker 03

  I was really annoyed about.

• 2:39:54Bill Simmons?

  Couldn't handle the swings, but.

• 2:39:56Speaker 03

  I told him that I was annoyed about it and I am annoyed about it and he should get it back.

• 2:40:00Bill Simmons?

  But like, you know, Yoka, your SGA, it's a good battle. You talk to different people, they're going to say different things.

• 2:40:08Bill Simmons?

  Nobody is going to do an MVP vote like I finally I get to do my anti OKC agenda.

• 2:40:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:40:14Bill Simmons?

  Oh, so I'm so glad.

• 2:40:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:40:17Bill Simmons?

  Like I voted for Dort for Defensive Player of the Year and Daggone for Coach of the Year.

• 2:40:22Speaker 03

  I wish I had had the, the guts to vote for Dork. I, I said I was, I was seriously thinking about it. I just didn't have the guts, but.

• 2:40:30Bill Simmons?

  It's like when they say like a golfer makes like an 18 footer at Augusta, they're like the guts, the guts to read that.

• 2:40:38Speaker 03

  Here's the thing about a media voting for awards. Were the best bad, bad, were the, of all the bad options, were the best bad option? So like, and this is not speculation. They let the fans into the All-Star voting.

• 2:40:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:52Speaker 03

  And the fans are like trying to vote Zaza Pachulia. And like, you know, with all due respect to LaMelo Ball, he's a great player, but he had no business being a starter in the All-Star game this year.

• 2:41:02Bill Simmons?

  He did not.

• 2:41:04Speaker 03

  Fans put him in. So the, the players and the media had to check on that. The players.

• 2:41:11Speaker 03

  First off, they vote for All-Star and they don't, half of them don't take it seriously. You can see the votes and like Bub Carrington's getting votes. All due respect to Bub. The players awards, you remember that lasted for like two or three years? That was a disaster.

• 2:41:23Bill Simmons?

  Who could have predicted? I mean, it was a disaster when they did in the sixties and they had people voting for MVP. Some of the votes were, you know, Bill Russell being like fifth.

• 2:41:32Speaker 03

  Okay, of course. One of the most amazing awards every year is the executive of the year award.

• 2:41:38Bill Simmons?

  Voted by other executives.

• 2:41:40Speaker 03

  The other executives vote for it. It's like the pettiest award. Like there's so bias and pettiness and like, like if you go back and historically look at some of these vote totals, you can't trust that.

• 2:41:54Bill Simmons?

  Only the NBA governor's meeting is more petty than the.

• 2:41:57Speaker 03

  Can you imagine? So the players don't trust the owners. The owners don't trust the players. The players can't be trusted to pick the other players. The fans can't be trusted at all. So is the media perfect? Hell no, but we're the best of the options.

• 2:42:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, and also you can't fuck around with your ballot. You can't be like, I'm going to put Bronny James, third for rookie of the year. Because then it's going to be shown that you did that.

• 2:42:21Speaker 03

  I know, and my colleagues don't like that their votes are public.

• 2:42:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, so I don't care if my votes public. I, I, I watch basketball year. I really care about the process. I've talked about it forever and I'm going to do my ballot the way I want to do it. I have a whole process and I care.

• 2:42:38Speaker 03

  Okay, so hold us accountable.

• 2:42:39Bill Simmons?

  If people disagree with it, that's fine. I, but I do wonder though, if they should make it private. And if they don't like certain ballots, just knock those people out for the next year.

• 2:42:51Speaker 03

  Well, that is something that could happen. Hold us accountable.

• 2:42:54Bill Simmons?

  What I don't, here's, here's why I say that. I worry about the group think for stuff because people are afraid, oh, if I do this and not enough people are with me, then people are going to say whatever, right? And then if you're just like, ah, it's just safer for me to do this because I don't want to be noticed. That's not, then we're not voting anymore. And I do think people do that.

• 2:43:14Speaker 03

  Yes, I definitely think that happens. And I think especially with the teams that you have to cover. You know, like if you are.

• 2:43:22Bill Simmons?

  Right. You've Jaren Jackson. You leave him off third team NBA and then you run into him.

• 2:43:26Speaker 03

  Okay, so.

• 2:43:26Bill Simmons?

  Hey dude.

• 2:43:27Speaker 03

  This is one thing that I do and I did it this year. Evan Mobley and Jaren Jackson were are both guys who, if they may call NBA, get the bonus. Mobley is already in his contract. Jackson is eligible for the super max, doesn't have it, but he's eligible. So I have a rule that if you're close, I put you on. I did this with Jalen Brown, um, two years ago. Jalen Brown had earned it. He was he was on. He was second.

• 2:43:50Bill Simmons?

  Jalen Brown should have been on.

• 2:43:51Speaker 03

  He he earned it. That's a bad example.

• 2:43:52Bill Simmons?

  Jaren, well, but Jaren Jackson's an interesting one because like I didn't have him.

• 2:43:55Speaker 03

  I put him on.

• 2:43:56Bill Simmons?

  I put Zubotz over him.

• 2:43:57Speaker 03

  It's and I'm not going to argue that with you. I'm just saying like I have this rule that if it's close, I give it to him.

• 2:44:02Bill Simmons?

  Can't argue with it.

• 2:44:03Speaker 03

  And Evan Mobley was on it, too.

• 2:44:05Bill Simmons?

  Speaking of arguing, we went way too long. We have to watch him play in basketball game.

• 2:44:08Speaker 03

  I know.

• 2:44:08Bill Simmons?

  We now missed the first quarter, but I had a great time. It was good catching up with you.

• 2:44:11Speaker 03

  I always love talking to you.

• 2:44:12Bill Simmons?

  Thanks for popping on.

• 2:44:13Speaker 03

  Can I just say real quick?

• 2:44:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:14Speaker 03

  I don't know if it's still available on the web.

• 2:44:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:18Speaker 03

  Anywhere. You and I, when you did your book of basketball to, what did what did you call it? Like when you did the podcast.

• 2:44:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's on YouTube.

• 2:44:28Speaker 03

  It's on YouTube?

• 2:44:28Bill Simmons?

  We did LeBron's The Shot, right?

• 2:44:30Speaker 03

  We did this game seven.

• 2:44:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:34Speaker 03

  It's the most fun I've ever had doing a podcast.

• 2:44:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 2:44:38Speaker 03

  And is probably the best, the best, some of the best content I've ever done.

• 2:44:46Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 2:44:46Speaker 03

  Did it. We did it at the studio at the Ringer.

• 2:44:48Bill Simmons?

  They pre-COVID.

• 2:44:49Speaker 03

  Pre-COVID. I remember like coming across it like during COVID, like in, you know, during the darkest of times and listening to it. So if you are a LeBron fan or a Kyrie fan, just go find that. I mean, all of you did a whole bunch of them.

• 2:45:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:04Speaker 03

  Now it's, you know, half a decade old or longer, but like I just want to say.

• 2:45:07Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I'm glad. Well, you were great on that one. That was a really fun one to do.

• 2:45:10Speaker 03

  I love. So.

• 2:45:10Bill Simmons?

  Okay. All right. Great to see you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Windhorst. Thanks to Mahoney and CR. Thanks to Jesse and Gahow and Sir Rudy for helping out behind the scenes. Don't forget, you can catch up on Celtic City on Max. If you haven't watched it, I'm really proud of it. I hope you like. If you like basketball, I feel like you're gonna like it. And then enjoy the playoffs this weekend. I'm going to be back with Russillo on Sunday night after a whole smorgasbord of games. See you then.

• 2:45:54Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. Or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, WildHorse9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys.

• 2:46:35Bill Simmons?

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