AI Panel Discussion W/ Emad Mostaque, Ray Kurzweil, Mo Gawdat & Tristan Harris | EP #96

In this episode, recorded during the 2024 Abundance360 Summit, A360 AI faculty discuss the future of AI, who will control it, and how it will merge with humans. Present in this panel: Ray Kurzweil (Futurist), Mo Gawdat (Former Chief Business Officer, Google X), Emad Mostaque (Founder, Stability AI), Tristan Harris (Founder, Center for Humane Technology) Learn more about Abundance360: https://www.abundance360.com/summit ____________ I only endorse products and services I personally use. To see what they are, please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: Get started with Fountain Life and become the CEO of your health: https://fountainlife.com/peter/ AI-powered precision diagnosis you NEED for a healthy gut: https://www.viome.com/peter _ProLon is the first Nutri-technology company to apply breakthrough science to optimize human longevity and optimize longevity and support a healthy life. Get started today with 15% off here: https://prolonlife.com/MOONSHOT ____________ I send weekly emails with the latest insights and trends on today’s and tomorrow’s exponential technologies. Stay ahead of the curve, and sign up now: Tech Blog Get my new Longevity Practices book for free: https://www.diamandis.com/longevity My new book with Salim Ismail, Exponential Organizations 2.0: The New Playbook for 10x Growth and Impact, is now available on Amazon: https://bit.ly/3P3j54J _____________ Connect With Peter: Twitter Instagram Youtube Moonshots Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 0:56Speaker 02

  How do you control a technology that runs on laptops and smartphones and is moving in a ubiquitous, decentralized training direction?

• 1:04Speaker 03

  These technologies can help us appreciate the world better, appreciate each other's stories and tell the stories of each other.

• 1:10Speaker 04

  This is not a question of technology. This is a question of human fear. The fear here is that the other party is going to beat me.

• 1:17Speaker 02

  There's so many ways that we can make AI a part of the solution, but we have to look at all the ways it's been misincentivized so far.

• 1:23Speaker 04

  This is a moment where we have to remove the shackles of technology, to be very open and honest. I think we need to use technology in our benefit, but not let it use us.

• 1:36Peter Diamandis?

  Let me kick it off here. Imad, how do you feel about sentience? Do you feel that these models are becoming sentient? Or conscious?

• 1:50Speaker 03

  I don't think so yet. I think there's still like waits and ASCII files that are like a sieve. You put something in and something else comes out. However, as you combine them with humans working on them and in agent-based things, I think you'll see new forms of emergent intelligence and potentially sentience from now.

• 2:11Peter Diamandis?

  Mo, how about you? Do you imagine we're going to see sentience?

• 2:16Speaker 04

  Define sentience.

• 2:19Speaker 04

  I mean, if you think of us as sentient, then that's a question. If you think a tree is sentient, that's a different question. If you think the universe is sentient, that's a different question. I mean, how much difference are we, you know, to ASCII code? And, you know, we're DNA code in a very interesting way.

• 2:37Peter Diamandis?

  I define it as human-level sentience. And then I'm going to go to Annie, and I'm going to go to Saleem next. Yes.

• 2:45Speaker 04

  What makes us human is that we have free will. They have free will. What makes us human is that we can procreate. They can procreate. What makes us human is that we have emotions. They have emotions. If you define emotions as, you know, fear is an understanding that a moment in the future is a little less safe than a moment right now, then they have the same logic. It's a very complex question, but I will openly say it's an irrelevant question because if they simulate sentience, then that's the way we should treat them.

• 3:17Peter Diamandis?

  Interesting. Annie, and I'm also looking forward to this top question in Slido. Annie, what you got?

• 3:24Speaker 06

  Hey, everyone. Great, it's great to see you back here in person. The question that I have, we just came back from the Beneficial AGI Conference in Panama, and we were talking about humanity and where the fear is coming from. Do you believe, how can more of humanity get involved in the creation of superintelligence, super AGI, one? And, two, do you believe this super intelligent, super AGI truly belongs to the world? And if so, should companies and governments own it? Or should it really belong to humanity?

• 4:00Peter Diamandis?

  Do you want to answer that?

• 4:00Speaker 02

  That's a huge question.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  You know, a mentor of mine said with AI, it's like, which entity would you trust to be a trillion times more powerful than it is? Would you trust a corporation to be a trillion times more powerful? Would you trust a government to be a trillion times more powerful? And then what does it mean for something to be a trillion times more powerful and then have some kind of democratic accountability to the will of the people?

• 4:30Speaker 02

  You know, in our presentation, we tried to focus on, we all, we all want those super intelligent benefits.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  And one of the challenges in the way that AIs are currently trained is the benefits are directly connected to the risks right now. We want the donuts, we don't want the diabetes. The thing that gets you the perfect AI biology tutor for every middle schooler is inseparable from the thing that knows how to tell you about how to make biological weapons. If you want the first, you can't get the other one. The thing that makes cool AI art is inseparable from also knowing how to make child sexual abuse material and removing out the controls. And so I think that's, that's one of the key challenges. How do we get clear about what we don't want so that we can steer towards the world that we do and then have the controls in place as best as we can?

• 5:18Speaker 02

  And the problem is, how do you control a technology that runs on laptops and smartphones and is moving in a ubiquitous decentralized training direction?

• 5:26Peter Diamandis?

  I'm gonna go to Slido next, then Salim, and then Zoom. Is there any discussion happening around mixing spirituality with AI? Can AI connect with God? Anybody want to take that on? Imad?

• 5:42Speaker 03

  So as a former theology student.

• 5:44Peter Diamandis?

  Yes, that's right.

• 5:46Speaker 03

  So I think it's interesting because what this AI does is we take hundreds of thousands of gigabytes of images or trillions of words and compress it down to a few gigabytes. And that can't be compression of data, it's compression of context. So when looking at Islamic theology, for example, the 99 names of Al-Isan Tala like fasting is a representation of the divine aspect of Samadhiyat, or freedom from want. When you compress this technology down, you can say in Dali 3. Make it happier and understands a concept of happiness from being trained on the human corpus of happiness. So when I see this technology, what I see is certain aspects of the divine through the context window shifting of that. Because what we're trying to do with law spirituality is get beyond where we are right

• 6:30Speaker 03

  now and understand reflections of something a bit beyond. And that's what a latent space is for me. It is the concept of happiness, the concept of creativity, the concept of fulfillment. And these technologies can help us appreciate the world better, appreciate each other's stories and tell the stories of each other, just like it says, you know, we made you diverse so you could better understand each other.

• 6:50Peter Diamandis?

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• 7:34Peter Diamandis?

  Go to prolonlife.com, P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F-E dot com backslash moonshot. Get started on your longevity journey with ProLon today. Now back to the episode. All right, we go to Saleem and then we go to Stacy Hale on Zoom. Saleem?

• 7:50Speaker 07

  Yeah, clarification question.

• 7:52Peter Diamandis?

  A member of our faculty.

• 7:53Speaker 07

  For each of you, which is a beef that I've had for a while. We worry about AI getting smarter than human beings, right? And the question I have is, what do we mean by smarter? Because we have the IQ test with measures, the speed of thought processing and the ability to match concepts across frameworks. We don't measure emotional intelligence, spatial intelligence, the eastern concept of presence and awareness. So what do you mean by smarter is my big question that I've not had a good answer to.

• 8:20Peter Diamandis?

  What's smarter for you, Ray?

• 8:22Speaker 08

  Well, I'm holding this because I believe almost everybody here has one, and it definitely makes us smarter. We know all kinds of things that we didn't know even five years ago. I generally ask people when I speak to them, how many people have their smartphone? Almost everybody says yes. Five years ago, it was maybe 50/50. 10 years ago, almost nobody had it. And so in a very small period of time, we've enhanced our intelligence by carrying the best we have of machine intelligence, and it's really merging with us. And also, machine intelligence is learning from us.

• 9:04Speaker 08

  So it's really part of who we are.

• 9:10Peter Diamandis?

  Outsourced. Stacy?

• 9:13Speaker 07

  I just want to make a quick follow-up comment. The best comment I think we've ever heard about this comes from you, Ray, when we were talking about consciousness, and you said, "Language is a very thin pipe to discuss topics as rich as this." So thank you for that comment.

• 9:27Peter Diamandis?

  Thank you, Saleem. Stacy?

• 9:31Speaker 09

  So when we were looking at the four quadrants earlier, and down at the bottom, the two areas where we have the villains, and all the different things that could happen there, is there a way we can leverage AI to mitigate those things from happening? Obviously, we talked about child abuse materials, but all of the different things that were happening there, can we leverage AI to help us with that?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Totally. And that's the invitation that we want to make to the whole world, is this is our urgent challenge. We have, you know, when the framers of the Constitution were thinking about how do we prevent untrustworthy centralized power and governance, they were trying to do that with old mechanisms, it's just law and institutions. And now Larry Lassig wrote in his book, you know, "Code is Law." And we now need to bring new technological answers in addition to sociological answers to how do we check on trust with the power. We have things like zero knowledge proofs. We can also use AI, for example, to find consensus opinions in democracies rather than social media, which is sorting for what is a cultural fault line of inflammation and then incentivizing people to tweet to drive up outrage and anger to divide society

• 10:38Speaker 02

  on every fault line. You could have AI that tries to find the synthesis of different perspectives and rank for the unlikely synthesis. When do clusters of users who typically tweet different things and are angry about different things, when is there actually something that they tend to agree on that's a shared value? And what if we were sorting by unlikely consensus and sorting by division and outrage? There's so many ways that we can make AI a part of the solution, but we have to look at all the ways it's been misincentivized so far.

• 11:06Peter Diamandis?

  I love this question on slide O that will go to Anusha. It says here, what are the key skills that us teenagers, I'm guessing it's a teen table here, can learn to excel in the age of AI? I think one of the most important questions. So teens, listen up to the answer. Who wants to? Imad or Mo? Do you want to? So we've got teenagers here. What should they be doing?

• 11:31Speaker 03

  I think that, you know, you've seen the code models come out. You've seen the art models come out, but I believe that they can build content. They can build boiler plates. They can't do art. Yep. They can't do actual proper programming. A large part of what you have is the leadership, organization, and systems thinking is the most important thing you can have because again, you must think, what if I had that new continent with 100 billion talented people? What will I do to make my processes better, to make the world better, to make my life and other elements better? And I think that's the best mental model to think about what you should have. And those skills are the things you should have, problem solving skills. And you should also use it every single day. I think one of the final questions on our thing was, what should we do? Everybody in

• 12:13Speaker 03

  all your organizations should use one of these technologies at least half an hour a week and report back what they find. And you'll find some incredible stuff.

• 12:21Peter Diamandis?

  How many folks here are using Gemini or ChatGPT at least half an hour a week?

• 12:28Peter Diamandis?

  Right, I mean, my comment to my team is I want it open during every board meeting, during every staff meeting, I want it as a tab open on my machine all the time. There are so many times where I stop myself from doing something, go, oh my God, that's just gonna be so much better for me to do on Gemini, right? And it literally is like holy shit moments where I would have wasted half an hour, an hour of my time. It's boom, it's done.

• 12:51Speaker 08

  What teenagers should do is actually answer these questions. How can we relieve ourselves of these risks? And they'll be just as good as adults. It's not like you need to be of a certain age to be able to answer these questions.

• 13:07Peter Diamandis?

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• 13:51Peter Diamandis?

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• 15:19Peter Diamandis?

  our healthy lifespans. Go to fountainlife.com/peter. It's one of the most important things I can offer to you as one of my listeners. All right, let's go back to our episode. Anusha, very proud to have Anusha Ansari, the CEO of the X Prize, here with us today.

• 15:33Speaker 10

  Thank you. I agree that AI is inevitable and it's moving very fast. Also, like what, you know, Mo said about changes in society and a shift where, you know, as parents, we've become responsible parents. However, this is not something that's going to happen anytime soon. As we can see the state of our world, I would even question human intelligence as being intelligent. So with that given, and the fact that these models are using resources of our planet, energy and water resources, even more than human beings, and

• 16:14Speaker 10

  if we give them more power, more control, there will be a resource contention, which causes the wars that we fight as human beings. And now we're adding very powerful machines to fight these wars with us or against us. How can we create a pathway where we slow down? We can't stop it, but we can slow it down and give ourselves time to figure out the answers to this question. Because one thing I heard today is that all of us were saying, we don't know. And we don't know how to stop it. But is there a way, is taxation of all the companies and things that go into powering these models on energy and water,

• 16:55Speaker 10

  a way to slow it down so we can actually find time to find answers to our questions?

• 17:02Peter Diamandis?

  Mo, can this be slowed down? Is there a velocity knob, an on off switch?

• 17:07Speaker 04

  No, no, no is my answer, unfortunately. Once again, as I mentioned in the first inevitable, this is not a question of technology. This is a question of human fear. The most active motivator humans can ever engage with is fear. And the fear here is that the other party is going to beat me. And, you know, the second biggest motivator in our world is greed. And there is a trillion dollar pie to be gained from those who can create the next big thing. And so I would probably say it's not a wise thing to hope for a slowdown. I think the right thing to do is to embrace that

• 17:52Speaker 04

  that intelligence in itself is a good thing and just direct it in the right direction.

• 17:56Peter Diamandis?

  We saw this with Google, right? I mean, Google had the tech. They, you know, the whole, the first, the first ethos of this was don't put it out on the world wide web and don't give it permission to code itself. Right? If you don't want this to go, you know, to dispatch to the right. And unfortunately, they got their hand got forced. And you heard Sergey recently say, put it out too early. There's a lot of pressures there.

• 18:23Speaker 03

  I would say I think the, one of the solutions to this is actually open. Because our releasing of the image model meant that dozens of people didn't need to train their own. And we optimized it for the edge so it wouldn't require these massive compute requirements. Because like you have to send them to university once and then you can put them everywhere. So build open models so other people don't have to. And then optimize them for the edge so it doesn't use up all the resources rather than gigantic GPUs. And I think that can mitigate it somehow.

• 18:51Peter Diamandis?

  Nice. We go to Kareem on Zoom. Kareem, where are you and what's your question?

• 18:57Speaker 11

  Yes, hi, I'm Kareem from Casa Blanca, Morocco. Well, my question is to each and any one of you. First, thank you for all your presentations. They were awesome. And I like the fact that some of you are not pretty close or agree with each other. My question is, as human beings, how should we handle our identity, knowing that we have AI today and quantum computing coming at very fast pace, which will also completely cooperate with the curve that Ray showed us today?

• 19:42Speaker 11

  How should we position ourselves in front of this tremendous intelligence?

• 19:47Peter Diamandis?

  We're going to hear about that a little bit later. And tomorrow, yes, if you thought things were moving fast, hold on, we're about to hit warp speed. Who wants to take that one?

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Questions of human identity in the face of all this are super hard. A friend of ours says that AI is like the 24th century crashing down on the 21st century. And if you think about that much change happening that quickly, like imagine if 20th century or 21st century technology was crashing down on 16th century governance, right? The king assembles all of his advisors and send in the knights to do something about Wi-Fi and video games and like, what are you going to do? And, you know, I think the thing that is universal to bridge on the question that was asked before about slowing it down is a lot of the people that, you know, we talked to people in the AI safety and AI risk community quite a bit.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  And what everyone seems to be able to agree on is that people are a lot more comfortable if this change was happening instead over two years, but over 20 years. And Jeff Bezos, you know, said that society does adapt to new technology, but it needs time for its immune system to come. And I think one thing to think about as a principle is how can the immune system of a society Have greater compute processing power than the rate of evolution of the mutation of threats. And right now, the mutation of threats has greater compute behind it than the immune system of our society. So we need to, I think, correct for those asymmetries.

• 21:21Speaker 04

  The question of identity is a very dangerous question, and I'm being philosophical here, but, you know, we've just ended millennia of gender identity, you know, discrimination, if you want. The idea of defining an identity necessarily leads us to believe that one identity is either superior or inferior to the other, and that by definition might mean in the long term that we try to treat AI differently, even if it has rights. I think the idea here is to try and welcome AI, as I always say, as our artificially intelligent infants. I think this is a very big stretch at the moment, but more and more, I mean, your work

• 22:05Speaker 04

  in the morning today, Peter, while you're talking to all of those bots, is just the DOS level, the very entry level of how they will fit in our society. So we might as well welcome them rather than identify them and discriminate against them.

• 22:20Speaker 08

  It's going to be merged with us. We already carry around a lot of digital intelligence today, and that's actually how this will be manifest, merging it with ourselves.

• 22:35Peter Diamandis?

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• 24:34Speaker 12

  Hello, my name is Paul Ibrail. I'm a programmer. I've been a member since July. And well, first, thanks, Peter, for organizing. This is a very, very unique, unique community, very thought-provoking and talking to like-minded people. My two questions are for, one question for Mo, and one question for Ahmad. The question for Ahmad is, do you agree with Jan Le Koon's?

• 25:14Speaker 12

  Daniel Kuhn's idea that LLMs can't take us to AGI because of the reason that he said, well, according to him, LLMs lack planning and lack imagination and memory. What are your thoughts on that?

• 25:35Speaker 03

  I think LLMs are just one part of the memory, like type 1 versus type 2 thinking. And we have systems of planning and coordination and others. And again, just like organizations, we have people of different specialist types, from the strategic people to the tactical people. So any AGI will be a composite system as opposed to an individual one.

• 25:52Speaker 12

  So LLMs themselves can't take us to AGI?

• 25:56Speaker 03

  It'd be one part of it.

• 25:57Speaker 12

  Okay. And this is a question for Mo.

• 26:01Speaker 08

  I mean, we shouldn't call them LLMs because they already deal with far more than language. Pictures, cures for disease, lots of things that we don't consider language are already being dealt with. So you should call them large object models.

• 26:19Speaker 12

  Yeah, they're...

• 26:24Peter Diamandis?

  If you don't mind, I want to try and sneak in a couple more questions.

• 26:28Speaker 12

  One last question.

• 26:29Peter Diamandis?

  Okay, make it quick.

• 26:30Speaker 12

  Okay, I'll make it quick. So this is this question for Mo. I know that you emphasize that with all of this, the most important thing is human connection. And the internet is great for making human connections, but when all of the things, we're all flooded with bots and faking, how can we maintain the advantage of the internet yet still have actual genuine connections?

• 27:02Speaker 04

  I think the answer is very straightforward: leave the internet and go out, honestly. It seems to me very clear that...

• 27:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is a moment where we have to remove the shackles of technology, to be very open and honest. I think we need to use technology in our benefit, but not let it use us.

• 27:27Peter Diamandis?

  I'm gonna combine these two questions up here. So, the first one is, how do I invest in AI? Given that Imad is right with the three-year future visibility. It's how do you invest when it's moving so damn fast? What companies are building the infrastructure? And then, another question, Imad, that you might speak to, is the effect of AI as having on our education system. Because you're extremely passionate about reinventing our education system, as am I. I mean, I think the bot museum that Steve Brown is building, as you've seen those incredible bots of Aristotle, and it's amazing what he's done, right? So, if I want to learn about ancient Greece, I can go have a conversation with Aristotle, or Socrates, or Plato, and not have to read it.

• 28:11Peter Diamandis?

  It's amazing, in that regard. Imad, what do you think on those two questions?

• 28:15Speaker 03

  Yes, I think you used the mental model of where would 100,000 graduates benefit this business, or other things? Later on this week, I'm launching a democratized AI fund, as an angel list rolling fund, that's zero management fees, zero performance fees, to invest in the best entrepreneurs in this space. Anyone can kind of participate in. I've given 20 million supercomputer hours over the last few years to people like that. But outside of something like that, just focus on where do graduates make the difference? And then, when it comes to education, again, if your student has, if your child had so many tutors, education is basically a petri dish, mixed with social status game, you know, mixed with just childcare at the moment. The whole purpose of education should be to allow them to achieve their potential. And so, you need to think about how to use this AI

• 28:59Speaker 03

  to make them always believe they have agency and interconnection. I think those are the two most important things when you're looking at this AI.

• 29:07Peter Diamandis?

  Amazing. Mo, do you want to comment on education?

• 29:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think education is a technology, you know, putting a lot of people in one place and filling their heads with stuff was the old technology, AI, basically, and Ray will always speak about this, as it integrates more and more with us. It brings a lot of the elements of what we used to do in school and accordingly, we want to embrace that change very, very strongly and basically ask the world to move into problem-solving, human connection, you know, other skills like telling what's fake and what's true and so on. These are the skills that are going to be needed in the future. The rest is going to be provided to us directly through AI.

• 29:49Peter Diamandis?

  Awesome. Ladies and gentlemen, please give it up for Ahmad, Tristan, Mo and Ray.

• 30:04Speaker 13

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