KHC 176 - Chris Dudley

Chris Dudley - former NBA basketball player who played 16 seasons as a center, most notably with the Portland Trail Blazers and New York Knicks. After retiring from basketball, he transitioned into politics and ran as the Republican candidate for Governor of Oregon in 2010. In this episode Cam and Chris talk about the stewardship of Oregon’s land, public safety, drugs and addiction, education, housing affordability, and Portland’s economic struggles, while emphasizing grassroots support, and leadership grounded in principles rather than political point-scoring. Chris reflects on discipline, passion, and lessons from an NBA career, closing with a discussion about Initiative Petition 28 - underscoring that meaningful change starts with informed participation and voting. Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Chris: https://www.instagram.com/dudley4oregon Timestamps: 00:00:00 – Stewards of the Land: Oregon 00:05:14 – Politics in Oregon: Safety, Drugs, and Addiction 00:09:18 – Fundraising, Grassroots Support, and Connecting with People 00:18:11 – An Objective to Make Oregon Better - Not Score Political Points 00:23:27 – Discipline with Kids, Low Expectations, and Oregon Education 00:29:06 – Trump's Support in Running for Governor 00:35:48 – Portland’s Economic Downfall: Affordable Housing & Addiction 00:44:50 – Appealing to Both Political Parties 00:49:32 – Balancing Environmental & Agricultural Protections 00:52:15 – Reaching People & Getting the Word Out to More People 00:55:02 – Why Oregon is Becoming Unaffordable for Middle Class Families 01:02:54 – Balancing Being a Strong Leader & Diplomatic 01:08:25 – Finding Passion & Purpose in Life & Playing for the NBA 01:20:49 – Playing at the NBA Finals in New York 01:23:10 – Oregon Initiative Petition 28 (IP28) 01:30:37 – Final Thoughts: Your Vote Matters Thank you to our sponsors: Wild Alaskan Company: https://wildalaskancompany.com/cameron use code CAMERON for $35 off your first box Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Ketone IQ: https://www.ketone.com/Cam use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Sig Sauer: https://www.sigsauer.com/ use code CAM10 for 10% off optics Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Cameron Hanes?

  All right. Well, this is the Keep Hammering Collective and I'm here with Chris Dudley. It's a huge honor. Um, this, I say, I don't really know what to expect with this podcast ever, because we go from just, I don't even know what the topics we talk about to now, this is like a very, I'm honored and it's like, I have so much respect for what you're doing. You're running for governor of Oregon as a Republican candidate and you've, you've been in this game before. You've been a NBA star. You've done so much and it's a huge honor to have you here. And it's like, I'm feeling a little pressure to be professional.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Well, don't, don't, no pressure because the honor is mine. I mean, I've got to tell you, uh, honored and love your story on so many different levels and, uh, I'm excited. I'm excited to talk.

• 1:03Cameron Hanes?

  Thank you. It's, uh, yeah. I mean, I never thought I'd ever have, uh, politicians on here and I, and

• 1:11Speaker 01

  Well, well, I, you know, I frame myself as the outsider coming. So I'm not a, yeah, I, I, as we talked about, I'm doing it because I want better. I want better for a state. This is incredible state. I want better for my kids, your kids. You know, we've got, uh, our kids are sixth generation Oregonians and their eventual kids. And as we were talking earlier, and I know as you explore the state, it is an amazing place and proud to be here.

• 1:39Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man, it's a, yeah, we get kind of painted with this liberal brush or this, you know, we got the crazy stuff that goes on in Portland and most of the state, I mean, if you look at the state, you look at the voting in the state, in fact, it's mostly all red.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:54Cameron Hanes?

  There's a few little blue spots. Those blue spots have a lot of people in them, but we are a red state by and large.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:02Cameron Hanes?

  You know, when, when you go outside of Portland, Eugene, or wherever, it's like, it's just conservative, hardworking, um, people that love Oregon and love our country.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And they're very frustrated, frustrated by what's been going on. And it is, I, I forget the exact, I think I won. Thirty-two or thirty-three out of the thirty-six counties when I ran years ago. And it's, there is a real frustration by the rest of the state that they're all, everything's dictated coming from, from Portland, uh, in Eugene, uh, those areas. And there's a frustration. There's so many just hardworking people want to put their heads down. They want to do what their families have been doing for years and just want to be left alone and be able to do, do their work.

• 2:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  And, and they, and they get frustrated, and I, and I know you've dealt with this a little bit, where you have people saying, oh, they don't care about the environment. They don't, and they're like, what? We, our families have been here for five generations, logging, farming, fishing. We want it for the next couple of generations. We want to take care of it. We are good stewards and we're going to pass it on to the next generation. And, and there's a real passion to that, uh, as there should be.

• 3:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's, we are definitely tied to the land. And you think, you even think about like, how the existence of Oregon, but it's the people that survived the Oregon Trail, came all the way out here. We are tough, resilient people, right? And we appreciate the land. We love nature because of, maybe because that's our ancestries. That's how it worked. So we have this deep connection to it. And yes, farmers, ranchers, uh, people who work in timber, that's, I mean, that's who we are, right? And so we're, we're always going to protect that. And it doesn't mean that we, you know, we care more than most people about protecting that, I think, because of that.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. That's funny. Uh, my wife's grandmother, Emma's great-grandmother, my daughter's over there, uh, is, uh, uh, used to take artifacts into schools from the Oregon Trail that came from her, her family. And it's just, there is that, that core and what, what's always attracted me, uh, to Oregon. I came in ninety-three with the Blazers. And just that, that pride and that sense of independence and that toughness. And I think that's, that, that's at the core of the Oregon I love.

• 4:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, me too. It's, uh, one thing I do like about our political landscape, there's not much I like, but what I do like is that how we're set up is who's president? Sort of doesn't really matter for the states, you know, governors run the states, basically. So, because we have obviously Trump in office and we have Kotek running the state. So, Trump can't really, it's what she says, right? It's like what she promotes or pushes or whatever. So, that gives me hope because the presidential elections, sometimes you're wondering, do we have anything to do with that? I don't even know. You know, I mean, it's usually decided by the time it gets out here. It doesn't mean not, don't vote. But sometimes you like wonder the value or you, you hope you're making a difference.

• 5:06Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, we, we gotta vote because that's, you know, not enough people do. But, um,

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 5:12Cameron Hanes?

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• 5:55Cameron Hanes?

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• 6:38Cameron Hanes?

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• 7:21Cameron Hanes?

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• 7:44Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I think a couple of things. One is, when I ran in 2010, it was the closest election in the past 70 years in Oregon. I had the highest vote percentage of any Republican candidate since Governor Tia in 82. And it's really running on a message that can cross party lines and say, listen, let's, let's, let's agree. And I come from a family that's got, I've got the left, and I've got the right, and they're great people, some crazier ideas than others, and all that. But it's being able to, and it's, it's lost a lot today, but being able to talk to people, and say, let's focus on the core issues that are facing

• 8:27Speaker 01

  our state, in that education, we're ranked 50th for 4th grade testing. That, that last in the country. And I feel like sometimes I gotta repit, remind people, there's only 50 states, so that means we're last. That should not sit well, whether you're Republican, independent, Democrat. We all have kids. We all want our kids to do well. The economy, we're ranked 47th in job creation. Again, we all need our kids. We all need jobs ourselves. That's a key issue. Livability, you know,

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Safety, it's uh, uh, it shouldn't be where I've, my wife and my daughter talk. We live up in sister central Oregon, an amazing place. But they shouldn't have the discussion, do we need to, do we need to carry? To go for a hike in, and it's crazy. It didn't used to be that way. So, safety is a, is a big issue. And then it's, uh, uh, we've had an addiction crisis in Oregon from self inflicted wounds of, of allowing, uh, drugs. And it's, and we're not just talking about, we're talking about poison. Literally fentanyl, there's no good from doing fentanyl. It's, it's literally killing people and it's, uh, hey, can we agree that we should not be killing people on our streets?

• 9:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, seems easy.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  And, and well, and so if you focus on the core issues and you do it in a way, I think you can, you can expand, expand the, you can talk to people and also I'm, I'm really encouraged by younger voters. It's, there was a study done that the young Gen Z, kind of the 18 to 24, 25, is one of the most conservative generations, uh, in the past 60 years.

• 10:08Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  And, and I think a lot of that's from what we've been going through from COVID, from all, from what's happening in the schools. It disturbs me when, whether it's my own kids or talking to other parents, they'll say, when I'm in college, when I was in college, I won't name the college, but it's, um, I feel like I gotta write the paper a certain way that's gonna agree with my, my teachers, professors, uh,

• 10:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  viewpoint. That's not right.

• 10:37Cameron Hanes?

  Left leaning.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not right. It, it, we, we've lost our way in so many ways. And, and the good news here is, and as I said, came painfully close, uh, when I ran last time, we had it won Tuesday night and it felt like a loss in double overtime because it was Thursday by the time we'd, we'd lost. But even more now than then, nobody, as I've traveled the state, has said it's working. And that's, uh, some of my Democrat friends are saying. We gotta run. We gotta change this. It's gotten crazy.

• 11:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  And so I think there's a sense that there is, there's a way here, the path, that people are tired of ricocheting. Or not even ricocheting in Oregon. It's just so far away. Just the craziness. It's can we just focus, can we have government focus on the things it should do, which educate our children, keep our streets safe? You know, on and on and on, just some of the basics.

• 11:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I, I agree. I, um, I have a question, kind of a, like an overarching, bigger question. Cause I did, I tried to help Drayson last time, cause I, you know, it was time. It was like, we, we had, God, now I can't. What was her name? Brown, right?

• 11:48Cameron Hanes?

  And obviously people were burnt out on that. You look at Portland, it's a disaster. You're like, okay, this should be an opportunity to, maybe we can, maybe it can happen. What I was a little frustrated with was, you know, I liked Christine. I liked what she was saying. But it's like, when you look at like, this governor's race, cause I know, and I was talking to another politician, where this is just, just, um. Kinda big numbers thrown out, but, but she told me, she's like, to run for governor, 50 million, to run for president, 500 million. And I'm just like. Is that really getting the people who can make a difference when you say you need 50 million to even play the game? So then you look, and I was like, okay, I didn't realize that. I didn't know. It was like, I know money controls everything, but.

• 12:33Cameron Hanes?

  If, um, if we're eliminating people because they don't have 50 million dollars, they might be the greatest leader in the world. And then, but they don't get the opportunity. So then you look at like, who campaigned here for Kotek? And it was Washington, you know, Washington, Biden came out, um. Pelosi came out, Harris came out. Uh, Drayson didn't have anybody from Washington, but you're like, wondering, okay. Did that cost her? Did, did we need support from the big political names? But what happens, in my opinion, is Washington comes in, makes an impact, gets our person elected, then they're gone. They don't deal with it.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:10Cameron Hanes?

  We're dealing with it.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:11Cameron Hanes?

  They got her elected, but Drayson didn't get the support she needed from Washington to get the, the voter base mobilized. Cause sometimes they need to see those people they see on TV, be like, yeah, okay, I, I need to go vote. Sometimes it takes that.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:25Cameron Hanes?

  So tell me, how do you address the, the fundraising part? And then what do you, what's your thoughts on Washington support versus just grassroots support?

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great, great question. And I, I think there's a couple of things. And I'll start off with, I think it's very important as candidate that you get out there, and you've seen this, especially Trump, President Trump did a good job with this of being in different places and going beyond the conventional media to reach people. Right. And it's really important that you get your, you, you meet people where they're at, and, and you get out there and connect with them. I think one of the problems with any candidate in Oregon who's a politician from Salem, Republican, it's hard to win a general

• 14:17Speaker 01

  election because they can't earn that trust that's there. This election, it will be, on the Democrats' side, they will want to focus on federal issues because they think that wins for them. President Trump is not as popular in Oregon. They'll, they'll go right at that, where I'm gonna say, no, no, we've got to stop that, that nonsense. We've got to, we have to focus, when our education system is dead last, when we're 47th in jobs and et cetera, when Portland's ranked 80th out of 81, we need to focus on Oregon. And that's gonna be the core, and that's gonna be a big thing, where I'm gonna be focused on Oregon. We need real solutions for our serious problems. The fundraising's,

• 14:59Speaker 01

  i- i- it's not easy. I mean, it's, it's the hard part, it's, it's one of the hard parts of the job is making calls, because I can't make, when I ran in 2009, I felt like my opponent had to make three calls, the three big unions. And that was 70% of what he raised, where I had to raise from, you know, tens of thousands of, of people. And people said, well, you got Phil Knight. Well, yeah, Phil supported, but he was only 4% of my total raise. Right. So I had to, I had to, uh, uh, reach out and had to be, get broad support. And that's, that's incredibly important, and, and to get your message out there. And I think, um, I am going to be so focused on Oregon, I'm trying to mitigate the coming in from Washington. Yeah.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Because you're right, a lot of times they'll come in, they'll, they'll come in, help, but then leave. Yeah. Yet, here we are, and I think, the point being is, in Oregon, we've really had one party control for 25 years. And here we are. And I would say, in when running against Governor Kotek, I'm gonna say, you know, she's been in power for about 12 years, eight as Speaker and four as Governor. What metric, name one area that's gotten better? Mm-hmm. And you can't do it. Yeah. You can't come up with one thing. I mean, even when we talk about environmental issues, and as we talked about, I hate that sometimes, I think as conservative, we should be on the offensive on environment, not on the defense,

• 16:30Speaker 01

  because we care passionately about it. But even there, you can't say it's working because of the wildfire problems we've had. Right. There's not one area that has gotten better. Education spending's gone up, basically doubled, up 80%, and our results have gotten worse. And it's so often, and I talk about, and this is the message I want to get out there, is that, to me, leadership is a combination of empathy and accountability. The empathy is understanding what Oregonians are going through. The empathy is being able to understand, and I came from a background, and I know you did as well, but, you know, I remember, my whole family was educators, teachers, professor.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  I remember when my mom, when the car broke down, and being like, man, how are we gonna pay for this? We're living month to month. That's hard. It's painful. And there's so many families. It's real. So many, I mean, I think half the state is living month to month. And it's real. And it's having empathy for the parents that say, I want my kids to be ready to go into the real world when they graduate from high school. Yeah. And that's real. And so it's having that empathy, but then the accountability. And accountability has just been totally missed, where we're just throwing money at problems, but with no results, no tracking. And I think that's where, and I come from, and I'd say,

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Experience can mean different things. I think experience in political office can be one thing and yes, there's value there and knowing the system, working system. But I I believe at this point, experience from, I've been in the financial world, I've been run, I've been CEO of a company, I've started a company, I've run a small, run a nonprofit here in Oregon for over thirty years. Having that experience, I'd say is even more beneficial. Having a degree, you know, I was economics from Yale, you know, I know, I do think it makes sense to have a background in economics and having, uh, uh, sign the front and the back of a check, you know, know how to read financial, you know, all that. I think that

• 18:40Speaker 01

  does matter. Run a business, but it's a combination. So it's not, I, when you talk about government, it's not just a business, it is a part nonprofit as well. It's almost like a nonprofit. And there's people relying on you. There's people relying on you and, and when you throw these stats around, uh, when you talk about these statistics, which are, which are helpful in context, but between, behind each one of them is a story and you're seeing that. And that's what I love is, is traveling the state. I used to with, with the blazer, being a blazer, you have people come up to you and you know, you talk sports, whatever. But now when you're running, people come up to you and they want to talk about what's going on in their business and how, how it's getting hammered and you know, or, or just what they're seeing or what's going

• 19:25Speaker 01

  on in the schools or, you know, and, and I enjoy that and, and they're concerned. And for me, I'm saying, I'm not doing this because I, I need to do it or I, I've been success, you know, I'm, I'm secure. I'm, I'm good. But I'm doing it because I just feel like there's, we need a voice and we need a voice that can win. And winning is, is important, as you know. And I think, uh, for me, it's My having been based in the Portland area familiarity with it, people know that what I've done over the years from nonprofit from business being on board, they know I've done it for the

• 20:08Speaker 01

  right reasons. And I think that really helps with people being comfortable with me and I've shown that I can win it, you know, came painfully close, but have the ability as a Republican in the state to resonate, to expand the tent and resonate across party lines.

• 20:26Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I mean, you're so varied in your experience. You mentioned all that, but like, you know, the team environment, the business environment, the, the human, you know, to play on a team as a professional level is hard. You've got a lot of personalities you're trying to match and achieve a common goal, which is no different than being a governor, right? It's just like, it's, everybody has their own agenda, like on a team, everybody wants their points, got to get your rebounds. I got a contract coming up, you know, I gotta get mine. But we still need to win. So I get that.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  And I would, I would, I think, sorry to interrupt, but I think that's, I think that's why it's important at this point in time for somebody from the outside to come in and not have all those battle, you're seeing so often with both on both sides, they're so divisive, they're so partisan right now. I think being able to come from the outside and saying, no, we need to lead and we need to bring everybody, you know, we're not going to agree on everything, I know that, but, but kind of lead as the core mission, we may have different ways of getting there, but my mission is to improve these areas, not to score political points. If I'm there for

• 21:41Speaker 01

  four years and done, fine. Yeah. I mean, I don't even care. I don't, I don't need, I'm not taking a salary, you know, I'm, this is to get these things done and forget all the politics as much as possible and say, hey, let's, let's work together because this is, this is actually why you guys are supposed to be wanting to do this, is to get things done. And there is no metric in which you can say we're succeeding. I mean, I, you know, as the governor. I'd be mortified if, uh, I'd be so embarrassed if we were ranked 50th.

• 22:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  In anything, uh, and across the board, we're in the bottom of just about everything. And, um, at some point it should, that should really, really bother you. And it's like, how do we, how do we address this?

• 22:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, well, that's okay. I have other questions, but just for example, how do we rise above 50th in, in school education? I mean, what, what would you do to address that right there? Just that one thing.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Well, and there's a number of things, uh, there's a number of parts to it. And like everything, there's, it's complicated, but it's easy. And by that, I mean, sometimes you, there is getting down within the trees and managing different things, but you've got to be able to look above it and, and have a high level of view. For one thing is with fourth grade testing where we are ranked 50th is the science of learning. And you've seen other states do this where you get, basically it's getting back to phonics on how we teach to learn, uh, to teach to read. And you saw Mississippi go from 47th to fifth by focusing on this. You're even seeing California adopt it because it's kind of proven now that we, we lost our way.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  We got to get back to the science of, of, of reading.

• 23:24Cameron Hanes?

  Back to the basics.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Back to the basics, basically.

• 23:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  And, and the other one is, and I'll use the sports analogy here. Um, when you're ranked 50th, if you're, if you're coaching a team or running a team that's dead last in its league, should you have the, the shortest amount or the least amount of practices of any other team?

• 23:46Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  No, no. I mean, it's kind of common, some, you know, it's like, it's, it's, it's, you gotta put the time in. And right now we have the shortest, uh, we have the least amount of school time or top, you know, bottom three or four of school time in the country.

• 24:00Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  And you throw on there, we have a 34% leader nation in absenteeism. So kids just are not in the class and we gotta figure that out.

• 24:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  And we gotta figure it out.

• 24:11Cameron Hanes?

  What do you think is the cause of that?

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Well, I think there's a couple of things. One is Oregon has, uh, you know, I, I, I think a lot of it comes from unions and, and, and, uh, contract negotiations, that sort of thing. But somehow we've gotten to the point where we require the fewest school days. Uh, in the country.

• 24:31Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  And we need to change that.

• 24:33Cameron Hanes?

  Teachers Union.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  We need to mandate.

• 24:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's part of, you know, it's part of the.

• 24:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's, we need to be in class. It's just like, as you know, you get better by putting in the time.

• 24:44Cameron Hanes?

  Get in the gym.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Get in the gym and it's, you have to do it. Whether you, uh, to me, that's a non-negotiable. We're not going to improve. If, if a kid from Washington and a kid from Oregon, they both graduated high school. They meet, that kid from Washington has had the equivalent of one full year of school more than the kid from Oregon.

• 25:06Cameron Hanes?

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• 26:40Cameron Hanes?

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• 27:15Speaker 01

  We're not gonna make it, we're not gonna get better by having the least amount of practice.

• 27:18Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  I mean, you know it well.

• 27:20Cameron Hanes?

  I think, didn't Kobe talked about this, where if he got up earlier and practiced, he could practice like three times a day. Over five years, you're never gonna make that up.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  You're never gonna make that up.

• 27:30Cameron Hanes?

  That amount of work you'll never make up. That's a, that's an example that you talk about. And the kids, to me, it's like, they would want every day off.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:39Cameron Hanes?

  So it's not, it shouldn't be up to them. It's like, make them go to school. They will do what they're told. Just make them go.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it might be good that the kids under 18 can't vote, because they might not like that.

• 27:49Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, no.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  But at the end of the day, at the end of the day, kids do want to be taught.

• 27:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  And they do want to be, you know, it's interesting.

• 27:56Cameron Hanes?

  It's just like discipline. We talk about as a parent, kids need discipline and they sort of want it, because they feel safer.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  As a coach, as a coach, and I coached youth and then, and with my coach, I remember with, back when I played for the Knicks, and there was a new coach that came in. Jeff Engeni, great guy.

• 28:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  And he followed Pat Riley, and Pat Riley was kind of dapper.

• 28:21Cameron Hanes?

  I remember him on somebody's leg.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, Jeff, yeah, yeah. I was on that team there. I was right there when that happened.

• 28:26Cameron Hanes?

  Whose leg was he on?

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Alonzo Mourning. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:30Cameron Hanes?

  That's right.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  But Jeff was a, but, but you love that as a player. You love that, hey, he's right there.

• 28:36Cameron Hanes?

  He's getting in the middle of it.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  He's getting in the middle. And I remember him being concerned, he told the story, being concerned, talking to Pat Riley, who was Mr. GQ, Mr. Dapper, Showtime Lakers. Yeah, will the players respect me as their coach?

• 28:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  And he's, and Pat Riley gave him great advice, which is, yes, they will. If the players want a coach that will put them in a position to succeed. And that's so true.

• 29:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  You want, I don't, I want a coach. That will reward effort. Um, that that playing time is not dictated by the front office, but it's what happens on the court.

• 29:13Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  And I want you to drive me, I want you to get the most out of me, help me get the most out of myself. And if you do that, and you know, and, and you know, the coach cares about you, you'll succeed.

• 29:24Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah, no, I like, I mean, yeah, so the, the players coach, that's a coach who doesn't hold anybody accountable.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:31Cameron Hanes?

  And that works for a little while, probably not long term success.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe sometimes with, or it works a little bit when you have a top player who sets the tone in the locker room.

• 29:42Cameron Hanes?

  Right, okay.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  You know, who, who, it's, uh, when I went to the Knicks, um, we were a hard working team.

• 29:50Cameron Hanes?

  Who was, who was the guy in the locker room?

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Patrick Ewing, so Patrick, Pat's the guy and, um, Pat worked his butt off, you know, he's there early, he's there late. And so if you come in there, how are you going to work less than Pat?

• 30:02Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  You, you're not.

• 30:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  And so he helped reaffirm, and you saw that, and a lot of times, a, in the NBA, a coach will be as successful as their relationship with their key player.

• 30:14Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Like for Pat Riley, Magic Johnson set the tone, you know, along with Kareem, but it was Magic and, you know, and, and, you know, with Phil Jackson, with, with Michael there.

• 30:24Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  How are you gonna not work, or how are you not gonna be competitive with Michael Jordan setting the tone? It's a lot of times how that lead, those lead players set the tone in the locker room. Um, and it goes down, down the line.

• 30:37Cameron Hanes?

  Well, you know, there's that saying that, uh, um, you rise up to the expectations, right? It's like you're, if there's not much expected of you, a lot of people aren't going to perform. But if all of a sudden these, I expect you to be here.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:52Cameron Hanes?

  That's what it takes. So it's like when you're saying like, as being governor, the expectations, 50 is not okay. So what are we doing? The expectation is being number one.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:02Cameron Hanes?

  Right?

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:03Cameron Hanes?

  What is it, what is a number one state for education do?

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Well, and, yes, exactly, and, and, and these numbers have consequences. When you talk about fourth grade literacy, it's a key point because that's basically, it comes a point where you need to be able to read to keep going forward, that you're going to get behind, you're not gonna, you're four times as likely to drop out or not graduate if you're not reading by fourth grade. You're, uh, 70% likelihood of being incarcerated. It just, the numbers are, are, are real. And the, there's a saying that, I think it was President Bush, put in the bigotry of low expectations. It's like, low expectations don't help anybody.

• 31:45Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  And you see it with graduation here in Oregon. Yes, our graduation rates are starting to go up, but we've lowered the bar.

• 31:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  And so when 40% of your kids who graduate need remedial classes when they get out, graduate from our high school, that's not acceptable. That's not a success.

• 32:04Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  It's not a success by lowering the bar and saying, we're, we're doing better now.

• 32:09Cameron Hanes?

  No, I, I remember I had a, I had a SEAL on Eddie Gallagher, and he said that I think Obama wanted five more, 500 more Navy SEALs. So they lowered the threshold for what it means to pass BUDS, or whatever it was.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:24Cameron Hanes?

  He's like, that's not making more SEALs.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  No.

• 32:27Cameron Hanes?

  That's, that's like, making more people who couldn't make it, all of a sudden there are SEALs.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  And, and with the SEALs.

• 32:34Cameron Hanes?

  And that doesn't help.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  No, no, no. And we have friends who are, and then you are putting that person that graduate at harm's way when things come because they weren't ready for it.

• 32:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  And it's the same thing we're talking about. You graduate from high school, and now you need remedial, and, and, and by the way, you have to pay for those remedial classes when you get out of high school and going into college. And it's not, no, we cannot have low expectations.

• 33:00Cameron Hanes?

  And I think like, you know, the, the dollar is lessening a little bit because of inflation and things like this. But then also if you're not prepared to get to work because you can't read.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:10Cameron Hanes?

  You can't, then you're in this limbo and you're just losing more and more ground.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:14Cameron Hanes?

  The people who have that education, they're like, you, you're not catching up. It's the whole Kobe thing. It's like, now we're so far behind, when are we ever catching up? And it's like, then people don't have hope.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:25Cameron Hanes?

  So people without hope, that is, that's a terrible place.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  It is.

• 33:28Cameron Hanes?

  It is. Um, I did, I, I was, I was thinking about this as, as we were talking. You mentioned Trump earlier. Ken, do you need, as a Republican candidate, do you need Trump's support to win?

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I don't think you do. I don't think in Oregon you do. I mean, I, I, I think you want, I mean, obviously you want if a president will support you and you, you,

• 33:53Cameron Hanes?

  You take it.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  You take it. Yeah, absolutely do. But I think for me, I'm focused on Oregon and the less we're talking about national, the less we're driving people into their corners politically, the better for me because I want to bring people together and be able to focus in. And it's just hard where we get so polarized. It makes it a difficult situation.

• 34:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  I, I, I tell you, I remember, like I said, my family, I've got, uh, I've got extended family through marriage, you know, across the board.

• 34:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  And told one family member, uh, one grandparent on one side, hey, you got, you know, maybe a little less MSNBC because it's really riling you up. And then my other one,

• 34:40Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Uh, little, little less Fox because it's riling you up and it's making you guys. And, and unfortunately, a lot of this is the fear, anger are a drug.

• 34:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  And we're being fed that constantly. And it's like, hey, you're both great people and you both want the same things. You want good for every, let's, let's put, you know, let it know when it's kind of getting you too ramped up and let's get back and, and focus on good. And I think we need to, as a society, get back to that.

• 35:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's, uh, the tribalism, it doesn't help anybody.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  No, and, and the hate, you know, it just gets too far, too quick and we need to be really, really careful of that. And that's where, you know, I feel, uh, blessed growing up that my mom talked to me, she, she told me about, you know, don't judge another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. You know, let's be careful. And, and as a coach, I, I remember this, uh, coaching, uh, I remember I was coaching in high school and there was a kid who had come in and transferred. I knew he came from a little bit of tougher background and he had, had a rough practice and he was disruptive in practice and we either had to throw him out or, or put him to the side or whatever.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  And then I found out later, you know, his dad had been drinking and things had blown up that afternoon and before he came to practice.

• 36:05Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  And so sometimes you, you, you gotta know what's going on and know you're.

• 36:10Cameron Hanes?

  We're human.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  You are human. Now, it doesn't mean you can mess up practice. It doesn't mean you can be disrespectful to anybody else and there's consequences, but let's, you know.

• 36:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, like on the podcast I have, it seems like a lot of the ultra runner girls are liberal, like left leaning type, which I don't even, I don't give.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:29Cameron Hanes?

  I like running with them. They're cool.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:31Cameron Hanes?

  But people, because of this tribalism I talk about, like a girl I just had on, Rachel, I think she, somebody made a big deal. She's got pronouns in her bio and I'm like, I don't, so what?

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:45Cameron Hanes?

  Who ca- whatever. I don't have, I don't get it. Seems silly to me. I don't care.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:50Cameron Hanes?

  I don't care. She's an amazing person, but when we're focused on stuff like that, that doesn't matter.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:56Cameron Hanes?

  It's like, I don't care how you voted. I don't care if you, you wanna put a pronoun in your bio, do whatever you want. Are you a good person?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:03Cameron Hanes?

  You a good person?

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:04Cameron Hanes?

  And that's good with me.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you treat others with respect?

• 37:07Cameron Hanes?

  That's it. It's just like, we can all learn from each other. I don't care whether you're Republican, Democrat, liberal, that doesn't matter. It's like, can I learn from you? And I can learn from anybody.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:17Cameron Hanes?

  I can learn either how I don't wanna be.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:21Cameron Hanes?

  Or I can take lessons that you've like, wow, that's, I, I mean, Rachel taught me a lot. She's, you know, been through a lot. And if you're willing and open, you can learn from, as I said, anyone. But yeah, I just, when people focus on stuff like that, it's just, it's pretty frustrating, but that's kind of the culture of today. We have to like, find something that, to tear somebody down with, it seems like, instead of, hey, can we like, can we get better together?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Can we get better and can we actually focus on the issues that are

• 37:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  really pressing?

• 37:53Cameron Hanes?

  What, um, so on issues, like where do you differentiate from the Republican Party on any key issues? Like, or, or can you think of anything that you would side differently on that, that the, the party sticks to?

• 38:10Speaker 01

  You know, I, I, I'd have to think about that and I don't know, you know, I'd have to think about. Yeah, I'd have to think about that.

• 38:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Where particulars, I mean, I think maybe, you know, and when I think about why, why I'm a Republican, growing up, it was Abraham Lincoln.

• 38:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Then my generation dating myself here, but I was in the high school when Reagan came into office and it was the shining hill and his optimism, his, they called him the happy warrior.

• 38:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  And just how he, he pressed forward and had a vision for the country and that, that was huge impact. I think as far as, uh, with the party, you know, maybe it's not, I don't get as caught up like the issues you were talking about on the sides. I don't want to focus on the side stuff. I want to focus on the, it's kind of the, uh, you know, a lot of times, uh, like you, you were right. You might agree on 70% of the stuff.

• 39:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  And maybe not 30. Well, why don't we focus on the 70?

• 39:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Where we can get to the, the important stuff or at least work together and not get so divisive on the stuff that to me is not quite as important. And I think that's, I, I get tired on both sides of the, the politics where something goes wrong and everybody's sprinting to the microphone to weigh in where they have no idea what just happened. And they, they're just trying to get their points out and just inflaming, getting everybody riled up. And it's like, let's calm down.

• 39:38Cameron Hanes?

  Well, and normally when you had that common ground on the 70%, you can address the 30% more civilly.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:45Cameron Hanes?

  And discuss it and like you have this relationship because you're like, oh yeah, we agree on, oh, what about this stuff? Could we talk about this?

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:51Cameron Hanes?

  And it's just better than going in. And right now, the political landscape especially is you go in both guns ablazin' and try to tear them down.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:00Cameron Hanes?

  Instead of like the olive branch type thing, like, hey, how can we work together?

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Well, it's, we talk about it's, it's.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  If you're trying to win a debate and you're talking about policies, trying to win somebody over, you don't lead by, hey, you're an idiot. Here's why we should do that. You know, it doesn't, as soon as you insult, it doesn't work. And so it's like, I think you lead by saying, hey, we've got a real issue here. And can we both agree that Oregon shouldn't be 47th in job creation, for example? Or can we both agree that we shouldn't be number one in addiction? You know, how do we, now let's look at how, now, and this is, you have to win this over, but let's look at what's working and what's not working. And before we put the DER, you know, let's kind of look at what the solutions are, and try to work together. And can we both

• 40:52Speaker 01

  agree that these things are incredibly important? It's, you know, Portland's coming to that realization right now, where they're in an economic, potentially economic, they call it economic death spiral, where the, you've had the big office buildings, because of what's been going on there, selling for pennies on the dollar. And it was a little bit, it was an eye opener for me, when a city councilor goes, oh, that's great, because now the rent is going to be pennies on the dollar. Well, yeah, first of all, kind of forgetting that somebody just lost $300 million, you know, and probably will never invest in Portland again. But second of all, was that, and they didn't realize this at first, and needed to,

• 41:37Speaker 01

  you know, be brought up speed, is your revenues are now going to be pennies on the dollar. Your taxes are going to be pennies on the dollar. And actually, it gets worse than that, because all the buildings around that building are now going to get, they're going to ask to get reappraised. And so you're not going to have the money for the services that we need and the services you want. And you start and say, so, this doesn't work. And so it's kind of starting there and saying, you can't, there's things I know you want to accomplish, but you're not going to have the money unless we have a thriving business, we have people working downtown. And, you know, and so how do we get there? And then it's like, well, we've got to make people comfortable that they can, they're going to be safe when they walk downtown. We've got to look at what's happening with with homeless, with drug addiction.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  What we're doing is not working because we keep throwing more and more money at it. And yet the the amount of homeless keeps going up. How do we address that? What are the different areas, you know, whether it's addiction, mental, uh, treating mental illness, housing, or a hand up, not a handout, as in far as helping somebody get a job and and those sort of things.

• 42:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's, uh, you know, Portland, I mean, if we did a big road trip from down here and go to Portland, that was fun.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:48Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I mean, Portland was cool. You could walk around Nike was down there on Fifth or whatever it was.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 42:54Cameron Hanes?

  A bunch of cool, like, I went there recently. Most of those buildings are vacant.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:58Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like, what is going on?

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:00Cameron Hanes?

  This, and then we talk about making affordable housing. Well, we got, you know, huge buildings vacant. And it's like, uh, it just seems if you can't look at that and say, whatever we're doing is failing, then I don't know what metric you're using.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Well, and that's that gives me encourage. I mean, it's terrible that we've gotten to this point, but it gets me encouraging encouragement when, again, I haven't heard anybody, and I'm in Portland a fair amount in that area, say, and Democratic friends, liberal, whatever, say it's working. And I think there is, for the most part, and obviously not a hundred percent, but for the most part, there's openness to, hey, we got to change what we're doing and we got to do it quickly.

• 43:42Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, it's a, you know, a good example of, um, you can make a difference. I mean, I think of, you know, I talked and mentioned Rogan earlier, just when we were off record. But, uh, he, he was telling me he's going to buy this comedy store down there, build a comedy store down in Austin. And so he said, go check it out. We were down there with my family. So we went and it's like, there it smelled like just piss. It was boarded up, smelled terrible. I'm like, God, this, you're gonna make this something cool?

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:12Cameron Hanes?

  And he did, and it changed the whole block.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:15Cameron Hanes?

  You know what I mean? Now you go down there, that stretch up in Austin where the comedy mothership is, is vibrant and just people everywhere, businesses, people enjoying the night out.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:26Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like, that. As I said, I walked by there, it smelled like urine.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:31Cameron Hanes?

  And there was nobody there.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:32Cameron Hanes?

  So it can't, you can change things.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  You can.

• 44:35Cameron Hanes?

  Portland can come back and be a beautiful destination again.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Well, you've seen it, I've seen it, and even just walking around, I don't know, last week or the week before, you get a sunny day, you're, man, this place is awesome.

• 44:50Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, it's beautiful.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  You know, it's a beautiful city. But then you get confronted with seeing, anyway, you, you, we've got to change.

• 44:58Cameron Hanes?

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• 45:43Cameron Hanes?

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• 46:19Cameron Hanes?

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• 47:04Cameron Hanes?

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• 47:15Speaker 01

  I have a friend who's, um, he's, his family is a long time buys buildings up and down the west coast, office buildings, commercial buildings. They, they fix them up and lease them up. And, and he had texted me and said, you know, we've looked at four possible buildings in Portland in the last two years and we've passed on all of them. And he said, it's not the condition of the streets now, because these, these buildings are selling at a huge discount, pennies on the dollar.

• 47:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  He said, it's, I just don't see a will to change. And so if you have a will to change, if you show that we're going in the right direction, that we're actually, I think you can get people to come back in and investors to come back in and say, no, we can make this great again. But, but you have to have that will to change.

• 48:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's true. It's, and, and I think we're in the, you know, there's another analogy where if you see an abandoned house, somebody breaks out a window, you don't fix it, all the windows are going to be broken.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:18Cameron Hanes?

  Right? You have to address that stuff. You can't just let it keep going because there is no end. Everything's going to be on fire and there'll be nothing there.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Well, and it's brutal for, I've talked to business owners down. It's, it's brutal because they're paying the highest tax rates in the country next to Manhattan.

• 48:36Cameron Hanes?

  I didn't realize that.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, in Portland. They're but they're also having to pay their insurance rates are skyrocketing because because of crime, because of vandalism. They're having to pay to remove graffiti from their from their properties. They're having to some of them are paying for extra security and it's it's just not you have to change that environment.

• 48:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  And there there are signs of there's it's getting gradually, it's getting better. It's definitely better than it was two years ago, but it still has a long way to go. And you just have to say that, you know, we're gonna we're gonna get this to the place that it should be.

• 49:12Cameron Hanes?

  How do as a candidate for governor, this is seems like a big challenge. How do you appeal to the voters of Portland and also the rural voters without losing either? Because it seems like the candidate, the Democratic candidates, they go for the for the big numbers, right? And they don't really don't really give much attention to the guys out there working every day, rural, the construction, the the farmers, the people, they're focused on the voters in the city. So how do you how do you reach both and resonate with both?

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think it's having messages that both can can can connect to. And that's why I'm focused on those key issues. Like I said, education, the economy, livability, safety, affordability. I I think it's having one, they can tell if you're authentic or not, if if you if you care. And I think that's something that you have to be able to connect, whether you're in eastern Oregon, southern Oregon, central Oregon, or Portland. You have to they have to know that you care care about them. That that one's very important. And then you have they have to know that you're you're you're gonna focus on those key issues and not get like we were talking about earlier, not get overly wrapped up

• 50:27Speaker 01

  and lose sight of your goal because of a pronoun or of because of pick your other divisive issue. And I think that's too often what happens. And you have to be able to say, no, let's forget that.

• 50:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  I'm focused on these core issues that impact every family in Oregon. And so I think it's both. It's so much of of the state. And and I love it when I ran the first, I said, one of the first things I said is I'm gonna visit each of the 36 counties. And so much when I lost in that heartbreak, double overtime loss.

• 51:02Cameron Hanes?

  By twenty thousand votes.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  By twenty thousand votes. What I felt bad for, I didn't feel bad for me, but I felt bad for the areas that, I mean, obviously I wanted to win. So, but I felt bad for the areas that are felt so unheard and underrepresented. Because so often today's government, they just cater to

• 51:23Cameron Hanes?

  The loudest, usually.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  The loudest, to the most populated areas, and the rest of the state feels left out.

• 51:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  And so I think it's really connecting across the state. And I think it's very, very important that everybody feel, feel a part of it, that the government's representing everybody.

• 51:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's, I mean, I feel like you're a very authentic person. I feel like, you know, when you talk to some, I don't, I keep saying politician, I don't look at you as a politician, but when you talk to them, yeah, they're like so smooth. And I'm not saying you're not smooth, but it's just like, you feel like, am I buying a car? It's like, what?

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:01Cameron Hanes?

  It's like, I'm getting ready to hear like, what do I have to do to get you to take this car home today? It's like, almost right there. And with you, it's like, you see, you've had, your experience is so varied, it's all these different settings, but you seem like so genuine and believable. So I think that's a huge part, because nobody wants to be, have some snake oil salesman just telling them what they want to hear, and then nothing happens.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  No, and nobody want, and one thing I've, I've done, it's just who I am. If I'm talking to somebody in Eastern Oregon or Portland, my message isn't, I mean, there might be, we might be more focused on certain issues in different places, because that's just the reality of, of, of those areas. But I'm not going to change my, who I am in one area versus, versus the other. And, and I think the thing that drives people crazy is, you know, when a, when a candidate is one way during the primary, and then they switch to another, I know, I am who I am, I'm running on this message, I'm running consistent all the way through. And I think that's, that's important. And, and, and, and either, either

• 53:07Speaker 01

  you want that, or you, you know, I mean, hopefully you do, and it resonates. And I, I think it does. I think there is a thirst right now, on both sides, for someone who can help bring us more together, where we can actually function. And right now, the state government is so Non-functional is such a disaster on so many different levels. We just saw it with this gas tax initiative and, you know, just how that, what a disaster that was. But there's been such a lack of leadership and a lack of being able to bring, at least being able to, you know, I can agree on everything, but at least be able to talk to each other.

• 53:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, definitely. I mean, common ground. So like, when we talk about, we talk about rule and different things, but how do you balance environmental protections with logging, farming, those agricultural things? So, because as we said, we care about that probably more than anybody, but there still is a balance.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, there is, there is. And timber, as you know, is a huge issue here. And I think I would make the argument that, and I don't know how anybody would counter it, that what we've been doing is not working, right? I mean, it's, we really got behind on managing our forests with all the lawsuits and the spotted owl and everything that happened there and really shut us down. And I think that was seen as being good environmentally, but in reality, it wasn't because not managing made it catastrophic, catastrophic forest fires.

• 54:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  And we're seeing that, and the analogy I'll use for friends who are, you know, we live in sisters, we live in timber country, who aren't out there, says, if you left your lawn and didn't cut it, didn't do anything to it for 40 years, what do you think it would look like and would that be a fire hazard?

• 55:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  And the obvious answer is yes.

• 55:11Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  You need to manage it. You need to manage, we need to take care of wherever it is, we need to take care of it. Otherwise, nature will take care of it for us and we're not going to like that, especially as we've moved with houses deeper into areas that we weren't before. So we've, we really have to get ahead of it and we have to do prevention because we can't keep dealing with the, with the outcomes.

• 55:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I think the messaging is the key because if you explain it, if you're in the actual, in the timber, in the woods, in the mountains, and you explain like, hey, here's fuel. If this comes through here, if a fire comes through here, this whole thing's going up. And just explaining what it means to maybe selectively log to a timber management program to mitigate some of those, because these fires are burning hotter and faster than they've ever burned because there has been no management, because it'd been like, oh, the environmentalists, they're going to chain themselves to a tree, no logging. It's like, oh, my God, okay, let's, we won't do anything. How about that? Are you going to be happy? Then they're happy until it all burns up.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, then my wife always, she, she would laugh about that, that the person who's protesting is sitting on their wooden chair, playing their wooden guitar.

• 56:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's nuts. It's nuts. So when we talked about that, the, so I think with the timber management, that's the messaging. That's where it takes maybe you standing in, in the trees and saying, here's what we're going to do. But where do you, like, tell me your plan to get your message out. I mean, I think you mentioned it early on in this podcast where it's, you know, the landscape has changed a little bit. How do you reach people? Podcasts are, you know, Trump did a good job the last times, probably why he won the election is, is hitting the podcast circuit because that's where people are listening. They're not watching, they don't trust the news. Some of the older people still watch Fox and MSN, as you said. Most of the younger voters, younger people are podcasts, social media.

• 57:08Cameron Hanes?

  So what's your plan on reaching voters and how, how do you get, you know, where's this going?

• 57:13Speaker 01

  I think it's got to be all of the above, but I do think it's definitely paying attention to social media, podcasts, and you'll still have conventional media. There are certain places that are, some places are more social and podcasts, some are more, you know, still do the satellite, whatever.

• 57:34Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  So it's a combination and then it's getting, you've got to get out and you got, you got to travel the state, you got to meet people, spread the word, you get volunteers and, and just get that word out there. I think one thing that

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Uh, the president did a good job of and and Madami did a good job. He completely different politically, um, but did a good job with their social media was making it fun and making it and allowing their personality to come out. I, I think that's important.

• 58:08Cameron Hanes?

  I didn't notice. What did Madami do?

• 58:10Speaker 01

  He did a good job of just being out there, talking to business owners, talking, using more videos than just, and I think that's

• 58:17Cameron Hanes?

  To resonate.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  To resonate and to be, people want to be heard.

• 58:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  And I think you got, you, you need to get out there, connect, um, interact. Uh, too often, I think with, with, uh, politicians or people running for office, it's just preaching and telling, telling everybody else what you're going to do. I think that's part of it, but you also have to be able to listen and people want to know that they're heard and that the issues affecting their family, you're listening to it and you're concerned about it and you want to help them.

• 58:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I, I, yeah, I mean, I think getting out there, looking people in the eye, shaking their hand, that is huge.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  It is, it is.

• 58:59Cameron Hanes?

  Did you get to all 36 counties in the state?

• 59:02Speaker 01

  I did.

• 59:02Cameron Hanes?

  Last time?

• 59:03Speaker 01

  I did.

• 59:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I don't know. Does that, that doesn't seem like it probably happens very often with

• 59:08Speaker 01

  No, I don't think it does.

• 59:10Cameron Hanes?

  I never heard of that goal, um, but I like that.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's, it was something I was proud of and frankly, I enjoyed, you know, it's, uh, we have a beautiful state as we talked about earlier. And so it was, uh, I enjoyed the process.

• 59:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's a, okay, now, now I'm going to go to, uh, I never do questions, but like since you're, this is so important. I'm like, I don't want to forget a question I should have asked. So I actually have questions with, don't, don't, I, I've always tried to be like Rogan. He never has any questions, just like off the top of his head. And I'm like, well, I'm not smart. So that's the problem. I can't remember anything. That's another problem. So anyway, I jotted down some questions. So, but this is like, um, why is Oregon becoming unaffordable for middle-class families? What would you cut, freeze or reform in the state budget specifically?

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think there's, um, a number of things for that. One, we have to have more jobs that, that pay more. We have to have good jobs. And when you're having jobs leave, that, that becomes a problem. I think our tax rates are too high. One thing that's overlooked is that for talked about for high income that especially in Portland, we have the second highest tax rate in the country, second to Manhattan, second to New York City. But what's overlooked is we have the highest personal income tax rate in the country for people for working class, basically going up to 120 grand.

• 1:00:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  And it's the highest in the country. And that's something that I think I would, I would want to pull that back immediately. I think people need relief and they need relief as soon as possible. And then I think you look at it and you say, let's put everything on the table. So often taxes or regulations are passed and kind of with the expectations that they'll eventually sunset, or at least that's how they're sold, that we need to look at everything and reexamine what we're doing and look at what has, you know, certain taxes. There is a benefit for certain things because for the services we want. But we also have to make sure that we're not just throwing money at where they're ineffective

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  and reduce those taxes that have the worst, worst impact, especially with the affordability. And there's a lot of different layers to the affordability. Insurance costs are going up, housing costs are going up, you know, gas taxes are going up. You know, there's a number of layers that we

• 1:01:41Cameron Hanes?

  Why are we the most taxed? What, why is that?

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's a big reason is that we've just been under one form of leadership for a long time. And it feels like every time the answer for every problem is more money, more taxes.

• 1:02:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  And I think that's where I said leadership is about the empathy and the accountability. The empathy is, all right, we want to address those areas. But you've got to be, is this effective? And what's the, what's the risk reward of this tax? What are the downsides of increasing these taxes? I don't think that's been looked at. Enough and we need to audit, we need to audit departments that have gone up doubled in size. Are they doing twice the work or they just gotten bloated? We have to, we have to, we have to put those audits in place and really examine, as you would any business, you would at least every so often look at them and say, is this effective? Are we doing what we're supposed to be doing?

• 1:02:41Cameron Hanes?

  You learned that at Yale, didn't you?

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly.

• 1:02:45Cameron Hanes?

  Um, you know, and I do, when I think about that, like decisions that have these long-term impacts, we think about the spotted owl, as you mentioned earlier, that devastated small, our small logging communities. You know, I hunt down outside of Coos Bay in Powers, Oregon, and that was a vibrant town with mills and people were working and people who work in the woods or work in the mill, that's like a specific skill set. They're hard workers. They will do what they're told. They're going to show up. They're going to do it right. They're going to work hard. And when you take that opportunity away because you close the mill because now you say, well, we can't, we can't harvest old growth anymore. It's not even, you know, I understand. We don't want to cut down 400-year-old trees, but there's a lot of logging that can be done.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:30Cameron Hanes?

  But when you take that livelihood opportu, making opportunity away from people who they're, they're just basically best at working hard, what are they supposed to do? They're not going to an office and doing spreadsheets.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:03:43Cameron Hanes?

  Their work, they want to, they want to either be in the woods or they want to work physically because that's just what they enjoy and that's what they're good at. When that opportunity is gone because these spotted owl environmental, environmental restrictions, then what are they supposed to, what happens? The town, there's, there's meth there, there's drug problems there, people lose hope. As we talked, I mentioned hope earlier, and you got to give people a chance to succeed or opportunity to succeed. And we took that away.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Right. No, and, and it gets compounded by a lot of times these counties.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Uh, maybe fifty, sixty, seventy percent federal lands. So if they're not having the timber, they're not able to generate revenue from seventy percent of their county, so they don't have the money.

• 1:04:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  And so that's a real problem as well. And so I think we have to look at different ways that we can either allow more working of the working land, or we have to look at other avenues, other things that rural Oregon and frankly, the country. Um, how do we help people with their career paths now? And it's an issue. How do we help our, our young men and women coming up who want to live in that area? We have to have jobs. I mean, there's, there's places that are, uh, certain, I was just in Primeville yesterday, and they, they're, they're doing good things there. Um, and.

• 1:05:17Cameron Hanes?

  Like what? Give me an example.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Well, I just think of the sense of community, um, that is there, the sense of, uh, supporting each other's businesses.

• 1:05:26Cameron Hanes?

  That's the beauty of a small town.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:05:28Cameron Hanes?

  It is. That's the, that's what people lose or don't understand from big cities is the community aspect of small town living. It's like I'm from, I'm from a small town and we knew what was going on, we cared, you know? Here it's so easy just to lock your door, or in town, lock your door, close your shades, whatever, you're on your own.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:05:47Cameron Hanes?

  And that, in small towns is different.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  No, it is. And I was talking to, uh, I'm trying to remember, I think he had a hardware store or something, and he was saying, "I intentionally get everything I need from Primeville because I want to support the businesses around me. I don't go to the Costco in Bend. I don't go to, you know, it's like I'm getting, I'm shopping local." And I think that's, like you said, that, that's the beauty of that small town that has that, they have each other's back and that, that's so important.

• 1:06:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and that I think there's some residual from being devastated basically by COVID because it just killed small businesses, you know, people restaurants had to close down. Nobody cared about that. They couldn't pay their bills. They couldn't have customers. All these the mom and pop like hardware stores, it could, oh, go to Walmart or go to Costco or whatever. And so it killed like so many people have worked that had worked their whole lives to build something. It was such a tragedy. Then you wonder, was that intentional? And then that drives you crazy. Cause you're like, what is going on with our?

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  And you have to be, you know, it's, you have to be careful when you have the big, the, whether it's the Walmart or the, you have to be really careful when the towns or the counties or the areas lose their, their character or lose their belief that the person can open a store and succeed. And it's not just all the national brands. And that's, that can be a problem.

• 1:07:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's a, I know. So there's a, there's a kind of a balancing act because I've worked in construction, you know, I was the superintendent over at the water and power company for a long time. And I'm working with guys, basically guys like that I worked with, they like strong leaders, right? That's one, that's one reason why Trump resonated a lot with young men because he came in, he didn't care about polishing up what he was saying. He was gonna say, so there's something, there's something powerful about that, but then there's also a negative to it. So how do you balance like the messaging on like being a strong leader and being also diplomatic?

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think it's having core convictions, sticking to those. And I think it's leading by example as well sometimes and that you don't always.

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  And everybody has your own, your own styles, right? You have to be you. You can't try to say, oh, that one worked for him, or this one worked for her. You know, that's what I'm.

• 1:08:18Cameron Hanes?

  We've seen people try that.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  People try that. You gotta be you. And so for me, it's, uh, it's your strength in conviction, strength in who you are. When the time comes, you're gonna stand up to whatever it is, or you're gonna meet the challenge. How are you gonna respond? And people see that. Um, and so, but it doesn't mean you have to yell at all, you know, there's, it's, you can see some of the best coaches, um, sometimes. They're not necessarily yelling all the time, but they're, they're prepared, their teams are tough, they're tough. Um, same with players.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  You know, different personalities. There's certain people that are kind of the, you know, rah rah, but then there's other guys you go, you know, you don't want to cross him.

• 1:09:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  You know, you know, so it's, it's be who you are, but be, be tough, be strong in your convictions and show that you're not gonna back down when something goes against those convictions, I think is important.

• 1:09:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, I don't know. I, when I think about like, I was thinking about the NBA when you were saying that. Like LeBron's been such this big figure, but it's like, his coach, it's like, it's, he's tough on coaches. It's like, wherever he goes. Like, I'm sure Reddick isn't gonna last long probably, or maybe LeBron's gonna be gone, but like, yeah, finding, finding the right leader is tough.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  It is, it is. And, and yeah, it can be. And it's, like I said, in the NBA, it's all but you.

• 1:09:52Cameron Hanes?

  Who was the best coach you had?

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  I had some great coaches. So, um, I'm gonna hedge this a little bit because I had some really good coaches from Jeff Van Gundy, uh, Lenny Wilkens, Hall of Fame.

• 1:10:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Bill Fitch, Hall of Fame. Um, I had Rick Adelman, who Hall of Fame, if he's not already, um.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Mo Cheeks, PJ Carlissimo, probably the best, and I only had him for one year. I really liked Chuck Daly. Chuck Daly.

• 1:10:25Cameron Hanes?

  Where was that at?

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  That was in New Jersey. He had come, he had won back to back championships in, for the Bad Boys in Detroit.

• 1:10:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  And what I liked about Chuck was that you really got the sense that what you did on the court mattered. He didn't, he wasn't caught up in all the other stuff, you know, that can be off this, what's going on with contracts, or the agents complaining, or the, you know, it's like, no, we're all about winning. And you believe that in him. And, and, and he was.

• 1:10:53Cameron Hanes?

  He walked the walk.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  He walked the walk. But Rick was an unbelievable coach, too. Rick Adelman.

• 1:10:58Cameron Hanes?

  He seemed more like subdued, though.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  He was more subdued, but, but again, it's, it's, you know, I'll give you a, I'm a side segue here a little bit. I was in, up in central Oregon. Actually, this, this, the person I was with, she's an assistant basketball coach up there, and her, her family had bobcats living in their house. But anyway, that's a whole nother story.

• 1:11:20Cameron Hanes?

  That's kind of cool.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But I was asking her, we were talking about coaching, and, you know, in today's world, the kids have so many different options. They're being recruited by other high schools, AAU, they're jumping from team to team to team. And we were talking about it, and she said her star player, she asked her star player, which, which coach, you know, who's been your best coach? And she was kind of, and she said, the coach I'm, I'm with is really a hardliner. He's tough on them. And so I really didn't think she was going to say him, because she played for a couple other coach, you know, in AAU, they're always recruiting, and it's a little, whatever. And she said, actually, it's, it's

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  our coach. And she said, why's that? I'm surprised. He's, he was really tough. And she said, because I know he cares. And he wants me to be better.

• 1:12:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  And even though he was demanding and he was tough, you can be demanding and tough when they know you care and you're doing it for them.

• 1:12:19Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah, and be consistent.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  And be consistent.

• 1:12:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, people, if you're just tough and then all of a sudden you're over here doing something that contradicts being tough on this, it's like.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Or if it seems like you're, you're getting enjoyment, making them run.

• 1:12:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, no, so, uh, yeah, that's interesting. I, I do, as again, as we talked about with kids, that, you know, they want discipline, they're happier when people, because usually when you're disciplined, it means somebody cared about something.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:45Cameron Hanes?

  And, uh,

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got a question for you too.

• 1:12:48Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  Before we're done, before you, you can keep going.

• 1:12:51Cameron Hanes?

  No, do it, do it.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  No, it's, uh, and, and knowing a little bit of your history and, and something you heard, it's, it's been a, uh, I've thought about this. And it was where you said to succeed, you have to find your passion. And I've always felt like that too. And, you know, my passion was, was playing in the NBA was basketball. And I wasn't that good growing up. I was a late bloomer. I didn't share that with anybody because I would have got laughed at. I didn't make varsity till my senior year. Came down with type one diabetes my sophomore year. So I was a long, long shot and I kind of hit, but that was my passion. It drove me and I worked, I worked hard. I felt like I worked harder than anybody I knew.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  But someone else told me, they said, no, I mean, yes, to succeed, it, it's helpful if it's your passion. But really it's, you got to find what you're good at. That if you can be passionate about something, but if you're not any good at it, it's not going to succeed.

• 1:13:47Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  And so I, you know, that kind of gave me a little, little pause, you know, it was like, huh, maybe there is a, a point, and I was just wanting to get your, your perspective because obviously I ended up and ended up growing and,

• 1:14:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  And so I did have natural, uh, God given talents that helped me with basketball and, and, and, but that passion, I think I wouldn't have made it if I didn't have that passion.

• 1:14:11Cameron Hanes?

  Luckily your pa-, yeah, your passion wasn't being a horse jockey.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And so, yeah, so I was kind of wondering if it's, do they go hand? In hand or how do you, you know, which, which is it that when you find something that you're that that triggers your, I don't know. And so I was just kind of curious your take on that.

• 1:14:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's hard to say it's a, you know, my, my son is kind of involved in this a little bit because I always told him running was his gift. He hated running, right? I'm like, whatever, I hate it, but it's what you're good at. So then finally now he's like, now he wants to make the Olympic trials in the marathon. And, um, but then part of it to me at, you know, we were talking, I had him on the podcast not long ago and I'm like, he's like, do you think I can do it? I'm like, I don't know. I mean, because you can want to do it as bad as anybody. You can work your ass off, work harder than anybody. If you don't have this level of talent.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:05Cameron Hanes?

  To, to run this time.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:07Cameron Hanes?

  To your point.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:09Cameron Hanes?

  What are you going to do? Right? So I changed my mind after we went and we ran on the track and I'm like, okay, I think you can do it. You were just flying really easily. And, uh, but yeah, I mean, that, that does make perfect sense is I think they have to, there has to be something in both, right? I mean, you're, you're never going to succeed if it's not your passion. But if you don't have that talent, then.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  And how do we, and we're talking about this, and you, you were mentioning rural Oregon or anywhere in Oregon. It's, it's probably, as you know, this, the anxious generation that some of the kids are struggling in a lot of different ways. They're trying to find their path. And for you, I know with your story, you bow hunting, being introduced by your friend, took you away from probably not a good path.

• 1:16:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  To, to discipline to go there. How do we help people? I mean, is that just, how do you, and I think about this as, you know, from government or schools, I mean, how do we help people find that path, find that passion?

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm just, it's something that kind of I think about a lot and how do you, because how do we help people?

• 1:16:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, um, well, I have a big advantage over you because I look like I have no physical whatever gifts. You're six eleven or seven foot. How tall are you?

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Six eleven.

• 1:16:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so you can't really control your height, right? Either you have it or you don't. With me, my story, I think, has given people like me hope. Because if you looked at, you know, the broken home, the alcoholism, the small town, that I wasn't great at really anything. And still, though, I had this, this drive. So it's like, I think the message is that, and what I've tried to explain in my books, that it doesn't really matter what it is. You can, I rode bow hunting to this opportunity.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  And I had, and I had drive also. Is drive, are you born with drive? Or can that be, or can it be?

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. You know, I don't always know why I had it. I mean, I always had a chip on my shoulder. I was always like, I want to beat that. You know, I, I, I would just.

• 1:17:24Cameron Hanes?

  So when did you get your opportunity? Like you said, you were a late bloomer, the diabetes. When did you, like, when did people start to say, hey, this guy can actually ball? When did that happen?

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  So I went, I got, by my senior year, I, in high school, I was pretty good.

• 1:17:41Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. And where did you go to high school?

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  I went, I was down in San Diego, Torrey Pines High School.

• 1:17:45Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  And I went, uh, then I was recruited and got good advice, which was go to the school with the best academic school. Because in case doesn't want to, and I was like, okay, but I'm still going for the MBA, but.

• 1:17:58Cameron Hanes?

  Was it a scholarship or are you good at school?

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Financial aid. It was, it was kind of, you don't actually get a finance, you don't actually get a scholar, athletic scholarship, but you, you get in, or you get help to get in by being excelling in a certain area. And so it helped me, uh, uh, to get, I mean, obviously you have to qualify and all that. But, but so I went there and then by the end of my freshman year, I was starting and it was really, I think it was my freshman year or sophomore year, one of our, um, players. Uh, was from North Carolina, from Chapel Hill.

• 1:18:34Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  And I'd go down and work basketball camps with him at Dean Smith, the old Carolina. And Michael Jordan was down there, Brad Doherty, Larry, I mean, Brad Doherty, Perkins. It was some of the best pickup ball in the world.

• 1:18:50Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  And I was playing there and I'm going against Brad Doherty, who was, I played with later. But he was going to be the number one pick in the draft. And I'm, I'm not going to say I was dominating, but I was holding my own.

• 1:19:00Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  And so it was at that point, yes, it was at that point that I said, I'm going to be able to play either in Europe or in the NBA.

• 1:19:06Cameron Hanes?

  And that was after your freshman season?

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  I think it might've been after, it was freshman, it was either freshman or sophomore.

• 1:19:11Cameron Hanes?

  What were your numbers like as a freshman?

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  Nah, I don't remember. Uh, five, six points, maybe.

• 1:19:18Cameron Hanes?

  And then, did you stay at Yale the whole time?

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  Four, four years. I, I was all league my last three years.

• 1:19:23Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, gotcha.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  So I got really good. By my sophomore year, I was good.

• 1:19:27Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. And that was, you got that opportunity to, to ball out with some of the best?

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  With the best and that where, and I was working hard and, and a part of it's, I was super, you know, you're kind of growing in your body and, um, uh, I'd put on weight. I'd gotten strong. I'm in the weight room all the time. I'm working out and, and it finally started to kind of quick.

• 1:19:48Cameron Hanes?

  Was that on your own?

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of it.

• 1:19:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  A lot of it. I mean, it's back then, it wasn't quite the, uh, you didn't have all the help and the trainers and, I mean, it's incredible now with, I see the kids that I would, everybody's got a trainer, everybody's got this, everybody's, back then it was kind of, I was doing in high school, remember looking online, somehow I got connected to Russian plyometrics. And so I'm out on the track by myself, you know, doing box jumps, doing all, you know, all this stuff.

• 1:20:18Cameron Hanes?

  I've seen that old footage of what the Russians did.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:20:20Cameron Hanes?

  Freaking intense, dude.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  And it was, it was like, oh, this is cool, you know, and, and then I'm jumping rope all the time. Cause you had to get, you know, just had to get quicker.

• 1:20:29Cameron Hanes?

  So you outworked everybody?

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  So I outworked everybody and it just, but it doesn't, doesn't always happen the next day. And sometimes that work pays, yeah, that work pays off over time and it all started quick. And, and then my body caught up and, and so by my sophomore year, I was, I was good.

• 1:20:47Cameron Hanes?

  Did anybody tell you you were wasting your time? I mean, do you have people, you said you had a chip on your shoulder?

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:53Cameron Hanes?

  What tell, what do you remember about that chip?

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Oh, just people saying, you're never gonna be, you know, what are you doing? You're never gonna be that good, you're, you know, whatever. Or it was, I would always, I, I, I know I, the kid that was getting recruited by everybody, that was all, I just wanted to kick his butt.

• 1:21:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  I just wanted to, you know, it's kind of like in, when, when you play, it's like the first, or if you go against them, it's like, early on, you test them and you just put a bow in his chest and see how he responds.

• 1:21:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  And then it's, you know, you kind of know where you're at. And, and so it was just driven by, um, just driven by that wanting to succeed and just a passion. You know, it's like, um, I, I love this, I'm gonna be better and I'm outworking you. And I'm outworking, I'm gonna get better. Now, you do get to a certain point where I got to the NBA and I'm like, well, I can work all I want. I'm probably not gonna be able to do what he does.

• 1:21:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  You know, but, but it still doesn't stop you.

• 1:21:52Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  And so that's, that's fun.

• 1:21:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it sounds like you, you had a goal and you just, you just made it happen. I mean, yeah, you had some gifts, you had some natural, some God given stuff, obviously height and things like that, but it sounds like you just had to overcome and just put in work and it was a long game and you stuck with it.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  Well, and I, I also don't know, you know, I always believed in myself. And I don't know if that's why that was that way or not, but I always did.

• 1:22:22Cameron Hanes?

  Where did this belief come from?

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  That's what I, that's where I'm at.

• 1:22:25Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, cause you know, parents say, you can be with anything you want. You can be the president if you want. And it's just like, no, you can't.

• 1:22:32Cameron Hanes?

  But, but where did that come from?

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  I, you know, I don't know. I don't know if it was, uh, you know, my grandfather was a pastor and, and his faith, or maybe just inner belief, or just, uh, just being kind of believing that if you put in hard work, it'll pay off. And, and I think I also had the, um,

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  The understanding that if this doesn't, if I don't get to the NBA, that's okay. That I'm gonna give it everything I have and no regrets. And I'm gonna enjoy the journey no matter what. You know, it's not as much always about the outcome as it is the journey and, and, and pushing yourself. And so I think, uh, and I just, for that, just having that, that really helped me because getting diabetes back then was a big deal. And in 1981, and, uh, I was the first player to play in the NBA with diabetes.

• 1:23:26Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  There's only been two and I was, that was the first one.

• 1:23:30Cameron Hanes?

  Who was the other one?

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  Adam Morrison out of Gonzaga.

• 1:23:32Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, I remember him. Yeah.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:36Cameron Hanes?

  He was number two pick, I think, wasn't he?

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe four, but he was a great player and a good guy.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  So having that belief and, you know, I was a fourth round pick. They don't even have four rounds anymore. You know, it's probably a 1% chance of being able to make it. I was the only one from my talent who made it, you know, and so on and so on and so on. And so, but it's just having that, that belief and you know what? I'm going for it. I'm gonna give everything I have and I, I, I know I can outwork you. I'm gonna outwork those guys and I'm gonna make this. But I also think if it didn't work and I, I think those are great skills to have for life anyway.

• 1:24:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Did, uh, you said you were gonna enjoy the journey. Did you enjoy all of it? Did you enjoy?

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  I mean, there's times you don't. I mean, uh, certainly playing in the NBA can be tough at times where you're just on the road all the time and, you know, all those, all those things. But overall, yeah, I did. I did. I, I, I really enjoyed it. I think I enjoyed the most is where you're putting in, you're, you're working so hard, you're getting better and you're seeing those jumps. So that's fun and then making it. I think at times at the end where it becomes a little bit more of the business side. Um, and then your body starts, certain things start happening in your body. It's where injuries and it becomes a little bit tougher, but I still, I'll tell you, every time I walked into that locker room and I saw my uniform on the chair, I was like, this is the greatest thing ever, you know?

• 1:25:02Cameron Hanes?

  That's pretty amazing.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  You never, you never want to lose that sense of awe that,

• 1:25:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  man, that's, that's Larry Bird, that's Michael Jordan, you know, that's, you know, it's, it's pretty cool.

• 1:25:11Cameron Hanes?

  Well, what's your, what's your highlight you think of when you think back on your career? What stands out?

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  You know, um, I had games that were really good and, and different, but I think when I was in New York and we went to the NBA finals, that was pretty cool. And I was, uh, Patrick Ewing had gotten hurt, so I was starting and going through and making it, winning, beating Indiana in the conference finals, uh, and Madison, beating on Madison Square Garden, having done that, that, that, that was cool.

• 1:25:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  And then, and then I, you know, I loved my, loved my year with the Blazers. I mean, that's where coming in, literally fell in love with Oregon. They're such good, such good teammates with Clyde Drexler, Jerome Kersey, Terry Porter, Buck Williams.

• 1:25:57Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  Just great guys. And that was a lot that, you, you know, when you, uh, when you retire, you, you miss the competitiveness and you miss camaraderie. And it was, it was going to battle with, with, and kind of going back to the politics, you, you learn, you come from completely different backgrounds across the country, people coming from everywhere. And, you know, it's pretty cool when you get that team where, hey, this is our common goal. Let's go for it. Everybody understands their roles and that, that, that's special.

• 1:26:28Cameron Hanes?

  I think just, you know, being an athlete just gives you a different perspective on life, you know, and competition and that, you know, I've, like I, I've told my boys their whole life, life is competition.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:26:40Cameron Hanes?

  If you want to win, you're going to have to get to work and be the best, right? And it's like, so I think we learn valuable lessons that can, you know, show up in politics, maybe for you, coming down the road or, you know, just at your job. But yeah, I think just being an athlete is such a benefit.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Well, and I think, uh, you know, it's kind of become a saying, you know, enjoy the grind, but I think there's, there's a lot to that. And you can look at that, whether it's enjoy the grind or, Uh, work for God, you know, in everything you do. When you enjoy that, when you say, hey, this is pretty cool that I get to do this. I enjoy traveling the state and meeting people. I do. And it's like, I, I don't want to be outworked. I want to be everywhere. I want to do everything. And I, I think that's, you, you enjoy the process.

• 1:27:28Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm. Yeah. No, I like that. Um, yeah, I, I did want to ask you about.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry, I took you off.

• 1:27:35Cameron Hanes?

  No, no, no, no. It's just, it's just, it's a stupid one. It's this initiative petition 28. Have you heard about this, right?

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:42Cameron Hanes?

  Also known as the People for the Illumination of Animal Cruelty Exemptions Peace Act would amend Oregon's animal cruelty status by removing many current exemptions that allow lawful animal use in things like farming, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, here's what's crazy is it, it would make it a crime to intentionally injure or kill animals, even in contexts that are currently legal, like hunting, fishing. So what, what is up with this?

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Even ranching. I mean, we, we, we live up in Sisters. We have cattle during this, we have, we're seasonal, but we have cattle. And, uh, I just, I think it's ridiculous.

• 1:28:19Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, I always get pretty frustrated, not just with this, but like you get these big bills that pass and like all the stuff thrown in there, right? But how does this stuff even get momentum? I mean, I don't know.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  I, that one is so, I don't even know where to start on that one. I mean, it's just so ridiculous. It, it, it's, uh, and you know, the thing that is frustrating, and I, I, I know you with, with, with, with what you do with hunting, and I've done a little bit of hunting.

• 1:28:51Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:51Speaker 01

  You know, but not, nothing to write home about. But there's a sense of I, you appreciate the animal, you appreciate what the animal gives you. You're not, and I, I always respected, uh, Native Americans for their, how they honored the animal.

• 1:29:10Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  And I think that's important. I think it's, uh, you know, I'm a believer, you eat what you kill.

• 1:29:16Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  You know, I, I don't think you just do it to do it. Um, um.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  And I think that gets lost with the and it's also, you know, obviously it's silly when it goes to ranching and chicken. I mean, what are we gonna, you know, you know, it doesn't make sense. But I think it, I think it's disrespectful to ranchers, to farmers, to hunters, and doesn't know where they, where they come from. And it's also incumbent on those of us who do hunt.

• 1:29:50Cameron Hanes?

  Explain it.

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  To explain it and to do so honorably. And I think what's lost a lot of times is with hunters is you want to take care of it as much or more than anybody else. You want to preserve it. You want it there for the next generation. You want to take care of it.

• 1:30:10Cameron Hanes?

  What I've always said is like hunters respect life more than a non-hunter does because we've seen, you know, we hunt, we kill, blood's on our hands literally, and we understand what it takes that that animal sacrificed for us to survive. Whereas most people, 97% of our country eat meat, they're not faced with that. They're, they're, they trade a checkbook, a credit card, some money for a steak. They don't know, they're not connecting the dots that that's an animal that died, right? So at least hunters understand that connection and we value it. And because of, we've been involved in the circle of life and death, we respect life and death more than somebody who's never done it. But in

• 1:30:51Cameron Hanes?

  my opinion, this is another example of, I think, I don't know who they are, but whoever, but want to make us consumers eating like contrived, I don't know what meat, not real meat, but dependent and basically just a consumer that just relies on the government for everything. And it takes our self-sufficiency away. It takes our ability to provide for our family, you know, and through hunting or fishing away, or either even through ranching with this bill.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  No, it's crazy. And I think one thing that Uh, covid should have taught us is we do need, we can't as a country lose our self sufficiency. We need to be able to provide for ourselves. We need to be able to, because what's gonna happen if that, if that went through? Alright, so now you're importing from other places or, you know, it's just, doesn't, doesn't make sense. And I think the more, I think it's, you know, I, I believe in, you know, whether outdoor school, I, training, uh, going out in, in the wilderness or the woods for, for, for kids, just having a respect for nature. I think that's so important. Not just going to McDonald's and getting a Big Mac and having no idea where the,

• 1:32:11Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:32:11Speaker 01

  where, where it came from. Um, I, I, I think it's really important.

• 1:32:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  And, and, and as you said, when you go through and you go, go hunting, especially the way, the way you do it, you have an even greater appreciation of those animals because of what they have to survive, what they have to do, to live outside or, and, and to be in the open and be able to go over some of the terrain that's just crazy terrain. They're amazing and you have a great respect for them.

• 1:32:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's a, and, you know, Oregon is special in with the remote places we have, the incredible animals we have here from deer, elk, bear, sheep, goats, everything. I mean, we got it all. And it's, it's, uh, so valuable and, but we need to honor it, but honor it correctly because these animals need to be managed, right? You can't just stop hunting.

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:01Cameron Hanes?

  Because when you stop, people always say like, oh, well, mother nature will balance itself out. Now, it's gonna be drastic swings one way or another, and it's not gonna be great.

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:10Cameron Hanes?

  So with, with man involved, we can biol, let biologists do their jobs. But this takes away all that opportunity from doing it right, from Oregon Fish Game doing it right. Um, but when we do it right, the animals thrive, right?

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:25Cameron Hanes?

  We thrive.

• 1:33:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:27Cameron Hanes?

  We get opportunity to grow as humans to appreciate life and death, as I explained. But when you look at it now, they want to stop hunting and fishing. There's more deer, elk, bear and turkeys now than there was a hundred years ago.

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:40Cameron Hanes?

  So.

• 1:33:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:41Cameron Hanes?

  Our North American wildlife model, which includes hunting, is the best for the animals also.

• 1:33:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:47Cameron Hanes?

  Habitat animals, because you start taking away hunting, that's all the funding for.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:33:52Cameron Hanes?

  To take care of these animals, right?

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:54Cameron Hanes?

  For fishing game, they rely on hunters money. Pete is not given, they might give money one time to win an election, then they're gone.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  Then they're gone.

• 1:34:03Cameron Hanes?

  And these animals suffer.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:04Cameron Hanes?

  So it's a, I mean, this, this is, it's, it's a joke.

• 1:34:08Speaker 01

  I couldn't agree more, and I think the more you can advocate and say that, tell that story, and I'm, I definitely, I will be as well. I think it's important, and it's not just that people are going, you know, it, it, there is a system put in place to manage it. And that system has paid huge benefits.

• 1:34:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  And we need to continue.

• 1:34:33Cameron Hanes?

  Well, this initiative petition twenty eight would make it a criminal liability for pet owners. It's just like, it's so nuts. So when you guys see these, when voters see this, yes, we, we want to vote for Chris for sure for governor. But, uh, we want to get rid of this thing.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:34:49Cameron Hanes?

  Cause they still are, they're trying to get signatures, we need to shoot that down.

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I, I don't know how you sign, anyway, but agreed.

• 1:34:58Cameron Hanes?

  Well, Chris, I mean, it's, it's been a great, great discussion. Um, do you have anything you'd like to close out with, um, that we didn't cover?

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  Uh, well, just then, first of all, thank you for, for having me. I think, um, one thing we talked about reaching out to a broad audience is that your vote does matter. It matters that you're registered to get registered for the primary, for the general election, that you vote, and that there is a real opportunity. I think when I saw it in, in, in two thousand and ten when I ran, that. Republicans were kind of down, wow, my vote doesn't matter. We always, you know, we're gonna move. It's like, no, no, no. There's an opportunity here. Let's get, talk to your neighbors. It matters.

• 1:35:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:42Speaker 01

  It matters. And you know, one thing, they will listen, they're gonna have to listen when people get energized. And we need to get energized and say, this is not right, the way our state's going. Our state has so much going for it. So much going for it. There's no reason we should be in the place that we are. And as I've traveled the state, and as I said, talked to people across the political aisle, political spectrum, you know, two, two things emerge. Uh, one, the love of Oregon, that people really do care about their state. But two, that things aren't working. And we need to change and, and, and do so now. And so I'd ask people to, to help join and let's get this done.

• 1:36:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I, I agree. I, I did want to mention, because I said, some people, sometimes a presidential election is decided by the time it gets out here. But I don't want anybody to take that to, to mean that our vote doesn't matter. Because as you said, it was so close with you last time. I mean, every vote for the governor, for sure, matters. Every vote on every state-related issue matters for all residents of Oregon. So yes, get out there, vote. Let's, let's, I mean, we know what works and what doesn't work. That hasn't been working that great for the state, for the people that love Oregon. So I think it's time for a change. I mean, you know, I don't know what, what Tina's plans are, but her approval rating's pretty low right now. So people aren't happy.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  No, she's got like 65% disapproval or something. It was, it was a huge number. And I think she's had 12 years from being in the Speaker of the House to the governor. And it's just not, nothing has gotten better. And it's not going to change. It's not gonna, and that's why I'm pretty passionate that we need somebody from the outside who has executive experience, who has qualifications, um, to be able to lead. Because this partisanship of just yelling at each other and kind of the bickering back and forth, but not focusing on the court. It's not working. We need to, we need, we've got serious issues.

• 1:37:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Now, the, the good news is that there are solutions. But we need someone who can focus on this.

• 1:37:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, well, I mean, I love this discussion. I love what you stand for. I love, you know, the platform you're running on and how the love you have for Oregon and your families included is pretty cool to see. It's just, again, it's a big honor to have you here to talk. You know, this isn't my, this isn't my best topic. I can't talk about running or running, I'm a little more comfortable, but it's, again, it's a huge honor and I would, you know, I just, I'm on your side.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I appreciate it, Cameron. Thank you. It's been an honor.

• 1:38:20Cameron Hanes?

  Thank you very much.