How Emily Harrington Became The First Woman To Free Climb El Cap’s Golden Gate In Under 24 Hours

Emily Harrington is a professional climber who became the first woman to free climb El Capitan's Golden Gate route in under 24 hours, captured in the documentary Girl Climber. This conversation explores her 50-foot fall that nearly ended everything, the eating disorder that almost destroyed her career, and how crying while climbing became her strength. We discuss her innovative double-shoe technique, losing mentor Hilary Nelson while pregnant, and why she calls Mount Everest "Steve." Emily brings radical vulnerability to a sport dominated by the boys' club, proving that showing your breaking points doesn't make you weak, it makes you human. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: LMNT: Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any purchase 👉 https://www.drinklmnt.com/richroll Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain 👉http://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll AG1: Get their best offer ever – Welcome Kit, D3+K2, Flavor Sampler, plus a FREE bonus gift ($126 in value!)⁠https://www.drinkAG1.com/richroll On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉https://www.on.com/richroll Bon Charge Get 15% OFF all my favorite wellness products w/ code RICHROLL 👉https://www.boncharge.com Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉https://www.rivian.com Check out all the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout. There's one sequence in that film that is definitely like the most terrifying thing that I've seen in a climbing movie. Can we talk about the fall?

• 1:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I had tried to achieve this goal, free climbing Golden Gate in a day. And I just remember slipping and falling over sideways. Like, I think my foot slipped. Fell about 50 feet, and so I hit a ledge and flipped upside down, hit my head, lost consciousness. It was very bad. Don't be afraid to do things in your own way, to fail in your own way, to not be afraid of fear, to not be afraid to try hard and care about things and be vulnerable and be open. And it's really not all about success. The majority of life is about how we deal with failure and how we deal with discomfort and struggle. And so I think we should never be ashamed to be a part of that. Just go for it.

• 2:07Rich Roll?

  Emily Harrington, you guys. Emily Harrington. Emily is, there's really only one way to say it. She's a badass. Emily is one of the most accomplished and versatile professional climbers in the world, man or woman. She's a seven-time national champion, known also for mastering these legendary big walls and insane peaks, among which of course includes Everest, where she met her husband, friend of the podcast, Adrian Ballinger. But Emily is probably best known for free-climbing Yosemite's El Cap, which she did in less than 24 hours, which is astonishing. And she's

• 2:48Rich Roll?

  also the first to do it by way of this very challenging route called Golden Gate, all of which is captured in her new nail-biter of a documentary called Girl Climber. So yeah, Emily's a beast, but you know who else is a beast? My mom. Yeah, it's true. All hunched over at 82, this is a person who knows exactly how to push my buttons, because as they say in AA, she installed them. And let's just say, over the past handful

• 3:26Rich Roll?

  of days, she, meaning my mom, has me pretty lit up. And so yeah, I need to talk about it. Let's talk about it, because the thing is, my mom now has dementia. Her brain no longer works the way it used to, except for the part I should point out that knows exactly how to punish me. But that aside, yeah, it's...

• 3:55Rich Roll?

  It's really sad, it's painful, but it's also a chaotic and dangerous situation right now that over the last handful of weeks has demanded a new level of my personal involvement. So, over the past couple of days, several days, my life has really been about showing up, being of service, and returning her tough love by having to do some tough things myself, to do some sober and rather somber adulting because life has been lifing.

• 4:41Rich Roll?

  By way of background, it's been about a month since I've been home. I was in New York City for like a week, then I went to DC to see my parents. Then I was back to New York, then I went to Tokyo for almost two weeks, then back to New York City, mainly to move forward on my book. But let's just say God had other plans for me because basically shortly after I arrived in New York City, I needed to pivot and go immediately back to Washington as things on the family front really started to spiral a bit out of hand. And my dad, God bless him, he's been managing my mother's decline for a very long time, doing the best that he possibly could for years at this point, living with her alone in their home in Washington DC.

• 5:25Rich Roll?

  And while my sister lives there as well and has been showing up and doing her best, really on the front lines of this for a long time to pitch in and to assist, it recently just reached a new level of unmanageability and basically insanity. And the deal is essentially that my mom at this point really can't remember much of anything from one minute to the next. She barely recognizes me anymore.

• 5:53Rich Roll?

  She doesn't really know where I live, or that I've been married for like 25 years, or really even that she has grandchildren. And on top of it all, this is somebody who's always been a very fearful person, a very controlling person, judgmental, uncompromising, prone to angry outbursts. And just the kind of person whose emotional needs have always been a little bit more urgent than anyone else's, needs that must be met without all that much awareness around how her behavior impacts everyone else around her. In that way where, you know, these people that just tend to suck up all the oxygen in every room they enter, that's kind of her. And that is just kind of the deal. It's always been the deal.

• 6:36Rich Roll?

  And now, in this more advanced stage of mental decline, it's on full display. And as much as people say, "It's not her, it's the disease." The truth is, it really is kind of her, just without the filter, and turned all the way up to 11. And I know enough from hosting so many experts on the podcast over the years that this, her difficult, challenging behavior, is really just a response to trauma that she suffered in her earlier years. Due to an unavailable mother who was a depressive shut-in. My mom is somebody who just never really quite learned how to give and receive love,

• 7:19Rich Roll?

  how to be open, how to be vulnerable, how to be emotionally intimate. And the love that she did entrust in others, in her dad and in her older brother, was returned with both of them passing away on her when she was still fairly young. Her dad from a heart attack, and her brother by way of a tragic auto accident. And because this went down in the 70s, and my mom being who she is, instead of seeking out help to process all of this, she essentially just compartmentalized it, pushed it down, pushed it away. And for the past 50 years, just basically pretended that she was fine.

• 8:01Rich Roll?

  That everything was fine when her behavior consistently, and it's basically always said otherwise in this controlling nature that she has, driven by a fear of abandonment, which in my case meant that my mother was basically ill-equipped to meet my emotional needs when I was young. Because my job was, and basically has always been, to meet her needs instead as the person responsible for making her feel safe. Anyway, there's a lot more to say about her, about me, about attachment theory, transference, unhealed trauma, projection, and the work that I've done to overcome the wounds caused by all of that.

• 8:42Rich Roll?

  But the point for now is that the moment arrived where she really could no longer take care of herself, and taking care of her became too much for any one person to do, let alone my dad. Assisted living has been on the table for some time, but, you know, my mom is this person who lives in such a state of denial that she refuses to even see a doctor for a simple medical checkup. She gets angry if the subject even comes up, and she's so far away from anything resembling acceptance that the prospect of moving her out of her home into a safe place where she can be cared for is just something resembling Mission Impossible.

• 9:27Rich Roll?

  And so this is where I come in, because it's been too much for my dad and my sister to manage on their own. So my week, which was intended to be focused on writing, you know, working on this book, turned into a maternal intervention, which was this all-hands-on-deck, multi-day, Ocean's Eleven-type operation to essentially rip the Band-Aid off, to get my mother out of the house and into a place that could provide her with the help that she needs, which was no small thing. It's a long story. But despite the insanely high degree of difficulty, we were successful. We got her into a memory care facility. The goal was achieved, but...

• 10:11Rich Roll?

  It was about as emotionally difficult and draining as you can imagine. Just the sadness, the guilt, but also, confusingly, the catharsis. Because my dad, who still has quite a bit of life force and vitality in him, has basically been held prisoner by her for years, doing his best to take care of her without complaining, enduring her confusion, her anger, her outbursts, which can be so intense. It really has been for him sort of elder abuse that has prevented him from being able to really even leave the house. And so, as hard as this experience has been,

• 10:56Rich Roll?

  it's also been this incredible gift that I got to help give to my dad, the gift of him getting to have more life, liberated from the burden he has been enduring longer than anyone should ever have to, which, as hard as it's been for him, has been this beautiful, albeit, let's just say, somewhat codependent, but essentially selfless commitment and demonstration of love for her that is this weird mix of unhealthy, but also inspiring. So, I'm pretty wrung out, but I am grateful. I'm grateful that my mom is safe now.

• 11:36Rich Roll?

  I'm grateful that I got to participate in returning some life to my dad, to contribute to alleviating some of the burden that my sister has been shouldering, to be able to show up sober and do the right thing, the hard thing, in service to my family in this moment of need. This is what being sober is all about. You get to show up, you get to be there, you get to be present, you get to stand up for the people you love. And that gift, this gift, is something that has given me just such incredible gratitude, meaning,

• 12:20Rich Roll?

  and what it means to truly love.

• 12:27Rich Roll?

  Did you know that Emily Harrington is on the pod? Hard gear shift here. Well, she is. And this one rocks hard. It's about risk. It's about embracing fear, accepting failure. It's about curiosity, the importance of cultivating a beginner's mind. We talk about humility. We discuss what it's like for her being a woman amidst the boys' club culture of climbing. We talk about her friendship with the late Hilary Nelson, friend of the podcast, who was very much Emily's mentor, and the role that vulnerability plays in Emily's high-risk, high-performance adventures, which, in my experience, is demonstrated in this

• 13:11Rich Roll?

  conversation and also on screen in her super gnarly doc in a way I actually had never before seen in climbers. So this is good stuff, people. Emily really sends it. So send yourself into this one. And when it's done, do the thing by dialing up Girl Climber, which screened briefly in IMAX theaters, but is now available to stream at jolt.film. Enjoy.

• 13:46Rich Roll?

  So nice to have you here today.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 13:49Rich Roll?

  I feel like I'm this layperson who has this privileged opportunity to host all these conversations with all of these climbers. Like, most of the people who appear in the movie have sat across from me at some point. Alex has been here a couple times, your husband, what a beautiful man, Adrian, Hilary Nelson, who I want to talk about, Conrad Anker. And not being a climber myself, and just somebody who is just an average person who kind of watches these movies, it's always interesting because I feel like I get it. And then I realize with each successive, like, new film that I watch, I'm like, oh, I don't get it at all. Like, it's so hard to grasp the enormity and the difficulty of these types of challenges.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's probably true in any, like, elite athletic world or any world in general, right? Like, there's these little nuances and subtleties that... You kind of just get a peek into when you're like a layperson or in the mainstream. But I think that's kind of the beauty of films like this is that it does give people a glimpse into this like elite athletic world.

• 14:56Rich Roll?

  I want to understand your life and your career, but we're here on the occasion of this documentary that's about to be released called Girl Climber. It tells your story through the vehicle of this goal that you set for yourself, which is to be the first woman to climb this particular route up El Capitan in under 24 hours. And it takes you multiple attempts to do that. So maybe we can begin with just talking about this goal specifically and what it is about El Cap that is so magnetic for the climbing community.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  El Capitan, I mean, it's just the biggest, most difficult, most beautiful wall in the world. It's also, it also just happens to be in Yosemite National Park, which is a very accessible place compared to a lot of places in the world. You know, there are El Cap sized walls in the world, but they're in these incredibly remote corners of the earth that are super difficult to get to. And the thing about Yosemite granite is it's incredibly smooth and polished and solid. So you don't have a lot of like, choss is what we call it, which is like loose rock. It's just sheer and it's steep and it's so difficult.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  And climbers have been going there for decades to test themselves on these walls. And initially, everyone thought it was impossible, impossible to get up, impossible to free climb. But gradually over the decades, there's been these outstanding achievements on this wall. And so it's also historic and no climber doesn't know what El Capitan is. And it's kind of that place that you go to test yourself. It's a proving ground in a way.

• 16:39Rich Roll?

  The documentary Valley Uprising does a pretty good job of recounting that history, you know, sort of this rogues' gallery of like, you know, like sort of van life dropouts. And, you know, in a period of time, that was very kind of like counterculture.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, it used to be like climbers were essentially these outcasts of society that were just. Living in their cars or living in the dirt in the valley.

• 17:05Rich Roll?

  At that time, though, you could basically just set up camp like in the park though at the base of the climb. It's not like that anymore, right? Like you have to drive in and out or how does that work?

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been, yeah, I think back in the day it was a bit easier, but also it's been a national park for quite a while and there are a lot of rules and it's a little bit tough to exist in the valley as a climber. I mean, yeah, throughout the years, there's been differing relationships with the park between climbers. A lot of climbers used to like poach camping or yeah, just arrive in the dark, sleep and then leave early morning. I've heard of climbers who slept in the boulder fields at the base of the walls, like in these little caves.

• 17:50Rich Roll?

  So there's like tension between the park rangers and the the kind of civilian campers and the climbing community who are trying to always kind of like be stealth and get away with stuff?

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, and there's, there's rules, right? Like, and you're not meant to stay for more than 14 days, but climbers stay there for much, much longer. So throughout the years and throughout these like generations, there's been tension between the rangers and the climbers. I would say it's, it's greatly improved now. Just because of the way that climbing is so mainstream now and we've kind of had to mature and had to develop good relationships with these places that we visit. And Yosemite is an example of that.

• 18:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. One of the things that you, you comment on in the film is the boys' club nature of the climbing community. And, and I inferred from that, you know, specifically around Yosemite and El Cap. Is that like historically been true? Or what is the, like, how does, how does a female climber fit into that subculture?

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting because You know, the most maybe well-known achievement on LCAP, aside from Alex Honnold free soloing it, is Lynn Hill and her achievement. So that kind of, it's interesting that a woman sort of owns that groundbreaking, like, once in every, you know, every other generation achievement, and it's on LCAP. And there are women who excel up there and have excelled up there over the years, but it is a little bit similar to a lot of other, you know, on-the-edge type activities where you'll have like one or two women, but then the rest will be men. And it very much does feel like you're a little bit of an outlier.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  That is changing, I would say, even since what I did in Yosemite in 2020. In the last five years or so, there's been a lot of activity from women on LCAP. And so that's, just like anything, I think that's changing rapidly. But yeah, of course. Climbing is primarily a male-dominated sport, and as you get into these different disciplines that require a bit more risk and a bit more experience, there's generally just more men than women.

• 20:08Rich Roll?

  But Lynn was always your North Star, like dating back all the way to you being a little kid, like obsessed with climbing.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean Lynn Hill was the first person I found out about when I started climbing. It was like, oh Lynn Hill, first person to free climb the nose in under 24 hours, like the most badass achievement in rock climbing history. And I just thought that that was so amazing that it was a woman.

• 20:32Rich Roll?

  And what is the relationship, you know, between her and then this goal that you set for yourself?

• 20:38Speaker 01

  So she was the first person to free climb LCAP in a day. And, you know, it's still, still the route that she did, the nose, hasn't been completed in a day by very many people. I think maybe just Tommy Caldwell has done it. So it really was this achievement that's, that stands out. And it broke through. It was this, it was groundbreaking. It was pioneering. It was something nobody thought was possible. And then, and she did it. And so in my mind, Climbing was a place for women to excel. And I really found a lot of inspiration in that.

• 21:15Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  But as a young girl, I was really focused on climbing competitions and sport climbing, which is just a different genre entirely from big wall free climbing, which is what climbing on LCAP is. And then throughout the years, as I sort of diversified in my climbing, free climbing on LCAP came into my, you know, perspective of something that maybe I could do someday. And so it just gradually, it kind of like, it was this first thing I found out about, but I never really thought it was for me because I was so focused on competition climbing and I wanted to like go to the Olympics and win World Cups. And then as I grew and developed and matured as a climber, I decided that maybe someday I could free climb LCAP in a day.

• 22:00Rich Roll?

  I mean, you straight up say, like, basically at the beginning of the movie, like you're at the base of LCAP and you're like, nobody talks about how scary this is.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:09Rich Roll?

  You know, like everyone's just, you know, alpha.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:11Rich Roll?

  And it's like, no, this is like, it never gets smaller. I'm always amazed at how big it is and it's really fucking scary.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think most of the stories we see about LCAP are, you know, the Don Wall and Free Solo are these two figures that are just, I mean, I don't think that Alex really feels that much fear when he's up there.

• 22:30Rich Roll?

  He has a very different relationship. He has a very unique relationship with fear.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Totally different human. And then Tommy Caldwell has probably spent more hours of his life on the side of LCAP than like in his own bed.

• 22:42Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  So for me, I think it was important to kind of convey just the enormity of that place.

• 22:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  And how special, but also terrifying it can be for some people and for me. But I still went up there. And I think that that was a cool part of the story and a part that people really relate to and can identify with.

• 23:05Rich Roll?

  I know that, at least originally, you weren't crazy about the title of the movie, Girl Climber, right?

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really didn't like it. I mean, I think a lot of people don't like it still, but I really, I didn't like it.

• 23:17Rich Roll?

  Do you like it now, or do you still not like it?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  No, I'm into it now. I think it's good. Yeah.

• 23:22Rich Roll?

  So what is it that you didn't like about it? And how did you change your mind about that?

• 23:26Speaker 01

  I think I had this really visceral, like, knee-jerk reaction to it, that it was like putting this label on me and it was somehow diminishing me and my achievement. And just, I think that it was that-

• 23:44Rich Roll?

  The cringey girl power-

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Cringey girl power kind of vibe.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  But then it's kind of like you watch the movie and you see that there is a lot of, there's a lot of femininity in the film and there's a lot-

• 23:58Rich Roll?

  You're emoting in a way that like male climbers are not, you know, are not.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  And there's a lot of-

• 24:02Rich Roll?

  And there's something really kind of like honest and refreshing about that, I think.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  And I think like the emotions in it and the vulnerabilities, I think a lot of times those, those types of things are perceived as a weakness. And I think the film does a really nice job of revealing those as a strength.

• 24:21Rich Roll?

  Also, the title, Girl Climber, like, how is that gonna sit with the climbing community?

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's least liked by the climbing community. I think a lot of people in the mainstream kind of like, really liked it and that, and, and thought it was a cool title and kind of like owns that female climbing story. Whereas a lot of climbers are like, this title is so dumb. Like, why would, why would anybody name it like that? You know, and, you know, I get that side of things, but also I think as like, language evolves, for me, the title doesn't- Emote that so much anymore. And especially once you see the film, you just kind of see like, okay, like, this is a powerful story. It's about a woman. There's a lot of like, female centric themes going on in the film.

• 25:08Rich Roll?

  But with a light touch.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:10Rich Roll?

  It's not the focus. The focus of the film isn't like, you know, the, you know, the, the, the place of women in climbing. I think it's not, it's just sort of inferred. And there's, you know, there's references here and there to it without like drawing too much focus on it. I mean, you, you like, you know, you're like, okay, here comes the mansplaining, you know, from all the El Cap dudes who are going to tell me how to do this. And it's like, I know how to set a goal. Like, you know, it's cool, but like, I got it.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  And I think it's, I think there's a lot of humor in it as well.

• 25:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Um, which I also really like. Like, I think Alex is truly like pure comedy throughout the whole thing.

• 25:45Rich Roll?

  He's, he's one of the funniest people. Like, I don't think, I don't, I think his humor is underappreciated.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  So underappreciated.

• 25:51Rich Roll?

  He's really funny.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  He's really funny.

• 25:53Rich Roll?

  He has incredible comedic timing.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Timing, he's dry.

• 25:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that, that really shows in the film, which is, those are some of my favorite scenes in the whole movie.

• 26:03Rich Roll?

  Alex, also a mentor, but basically you're, you know, kind of like compadre in this whole thing, who's there right by your side throughout, you know, all of these four attempts that you make.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I, I am super grateful that he's like willing to keep going up there with me and other people now.

• 26:25Rich Roll?

  He just seems like good to go.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  He's good to go. He's a, but you know, that's it.

• 26:29Rich Roll?

  We're talking about like getting up at one in the morning, getting up at, it's like, this is not like, oh, we're going to sleep in until nine and start this thing. Like, this is not like, you know, this is a lot.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he loves it. I, I do think that that is like truly his, his happy place. He likes going up there. He likes being up there. He likes helping other people. He likes like showing his expertise and knowledge and sharing it.

• 26:51Rich Roll?

  And such a steady, calm, even keel, like, presence to have, like, right there, you know, for every step.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I always say when I'm with Alex, like, I, I, I climb better. I'm more confident. I like do things that I didn't think I could do.

• 27:07Rich Roll?

  What is it about him, to your mind, that makes him different and special?

• 27:14Speaker 01

  I think he is exactly who he shows himself to be. You know, like, if he doesn't like something, he'll tell you. If he thinks something is stupid, he will straight up say that is stupid.

• 27:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  And so when he's telling you that you're doing well, or showing that he believes in you, you know that he means it. And he's, he's just an incredibly smart and capable person as well. And even though it doesn't seem like it at first, and maybe he's sort of evolved into this, but he, he does, he is a great supporter for those reasons, because he can be brutally honest. And he really does care for his friends and he wants to see them succeed. And so it's just this very genuine presence.

• 28:03Rich Roll?

  I love the, the scenes where you're like sorting out your gear and he's like, oh, you're gonna, that's what you're gonna bring that, like, you sure you need this? He's like, okay.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then when you get like a little nod of approval, you're like, yes.

• 28:18Rich Roll?

  It's, it's pretty funny. And, and there's almost no footage of, of him climbing, really. He's sort of this presence that's there, you know, on the, on the wall with you. But there's a very short, very brief clip and he's wearing like a red, like hoodie. The hood is, the hood is up. And he just makes this like real quick move, like where he kind of just goes up like 10 feet. But it's like, it's almost, I mean, literally he looks like Spider-Man. I was like, he just kind of went like this up the mountain with just an incredible like degree of like balletic precision. And you're like, oh my God, like in that two seconds, like I saw somebody do something that I, you know, like I didn't think humans could do. And I was like, it was kind of like all, you know what I'm talking about?

• 29:03Rich Roll?

  That one little clip?

• 29:04Speaker 01

  I'm not sure I know what you're talking about, but you have to remember that-

• 29:06Rich Roll?

  The fact that he had a red hood, his hood, red hood was over his head. I mean, it was like, oh, it is Spider-Man.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  I could see that. Well, you have to remember that like the section of the wall that he climbed with me is the same as the Free Rider route. So that's the same terrain that he free soloed. So he's practiced that.

• 29:23Rich Roll?

  A bazillion times.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  A bazillion, yeah, more than, you know.

• 29:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  It's, it's like, he knows it like the back of his hand, um, which is why he's such a great partner up there in part.

• 29:35Rich Roll?

  There's one sequence in the, in the, in the film that is definitely like the most terrifying thing, um, that I've seen in a climbing movie. Can we talk about the fall? Like, I don't want to give away every, everything, but like, we have to talk about this.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was an unfortunate incident.

• 29:53Rich Roll?

  So, set it up.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I had, I had tried to achieve this goal, free climbing Golden Gate in a day. In mid-November of 2019, and I came incredibly close to success. Like, I essentially failed in the very last hard section of the route. Around 3,000 feet off the ground, I just like couldn't complete this one section. And so it was, it was a failure. You're done, go home, that's it. And I, so I decided to try again. Maybe a week later, maybe 10 days later, and you have to, I think of it like, it's kind of like doing an ultra marathon. Like, you put in so much physical and mental energy, and usually after you do something like that, you need to like,

• 30:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  take a break.

• 30:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Take a step back. Uh, but for me, I had this, I had this angst of like, I just want to get it done. Like, I just want to do it this year. I want it to be done. I want to complete it, that ticking clock type feeling. And so I set out to try again, not long after that, that one, like, very close attempt. And.

• 31:01Rich Roll?

  And this was attempt three?

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was attempt number three. And I remember waking up that morning, it was like at, you know, whatever, 3:00 in the morning. And I just remember. I just didn't want to go climbing. Like, I just didn't want to. I was feeling afraid. I was feeling hesitant. It was just like all that, those red flags in your head. But I just pushed through. I was just like, really kind of like adopted that like almost punishment mindset of my youth. Like, just do it. Just like suck it up.

• 31:31Rich Roll?

  But not listening to yourself, not really being honest with yourself.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Like, just suck it up, get up there, go do this thing, get it over with. And you can't just like get it over with when you're trying to do a 24 hour ascent of LCAP. Like, it's just a bad mindset. So basically, I got to the base. It was really, really cold. There was, it was the end of November. There was a storm coming the next day. There was just all this like anxious energy in the air. There was also like a lot of humidity as well. Like, I think the storm was coming and, but it was also like below freezing. So there was just like, it almost felt like there was a little bit of frost on the wall. But I just kept like, no matter what happened, I was just like, stop thinking about it. You need to go. You need to go. You need to go.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  So I started climbing and Alex and I, what we do is we simul climb the bottom of the route. So you're basically like ascending the wall together, just attached with the rope. It's kind of like between like normal free climbing when you're just being belayed pitch by pitch and like free soloing. It's kind of like, it's not ideal for either person to fall in this scenario, but it's used as a speed tactic.

• 32:39Rich Roll?

  Doing it that way allows you to move more quickly.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  We move so fast, like so much faster. And so I'd started and I just was like not placing very much gear because you want to like be able to spread out your protection over a really long distance because you don't want to have to stop. So I was just placing like very little protection. And I just remember like in my head, like just telling myself like be confident, be confident, be confident, like keep moving, keep moving, keep moving. I just was motoring. And I just, I hadn't placed very much gear and I just remember like, I just kind of remember slipping. And falling over, tipping over sideways. Like, I think my foot slipped, something like that.

• 33:20Rich Roll?

  You fall 50 feet.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  I fell about 50 feet, yep. And the way, the bottom of the wall is like, pretty, it's, it's less than vertical. So it's a slab. That means that the falls are very not clean. So I hit, like, I just kind of tumbled down and hit like a ledge and flipped upside down. Hit my head, lost consciousness. It was very bad.

• 33:47Rich Roll?

  In the film, the camera is on Alex at the base.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:53Rich Roll?

  It's the middle of the night, pitch dark out. And, and suddenly the rope starts to, you know, like, you can hear a little bit. And then the rope starts to go like this. And he like grabs it.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:03Rich Roll?

  And then holds on to it. And then all you hear is like you screaming in the distance.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  It's like, it's like wailing.

• 34:10Rich Roll?

  It's an absolute horror movie, you know?

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's horrible.

• 34:13Rich Roll?

  And he's like, oh, my God, you know? And, and, you know, starts trying to get up there to find out what's going on. But not, but like, in classic Alex Honnold, like, complete calmness, you know, to handle a crisis. But that was absolutely terrifying to watch. And then to see, you know, you get kind of hauled off, you know, in, you know, you're all in, what do you call that? Like in traction, you know, put into the...

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Unlike the backboard and everything, yeah.

• 34:41Rich Roll?

  I mean, absolutely, like,

• 34:45Rich Roll?

  great, that's, that's crazy shit, man.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I often, I often leave the theater when, when that scene comes on.

• 34:52Rich Roll?

  It's gotta be hard for you to see that.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just hard. It just keeps going, like the, the wailing and the, it's just very visceral and like traumatic. And so I often like, don't, I prefer to not watch it.

• 35:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and he's like, it's bad, it's bad. Like, you know, he's like, knew it's bad.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. So yeah.

• 35:10Rich Roll?

  And then you're like, okay, I'm gonna do it again.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's, I mean, that's where.

• 35:14Rich Roll?

  Like, you're like, it ended up not being that bad.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  It wasn't that bad.

• 35:17Rich Roll?

  It looked really bad.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  The thing that I think happened to me, though, is people are often like, oh, why didn't you, you know, did you ever think about quitting? Did you ever think about not trying again? Like, didn't that experience like, kind of like scare you into not wanting to do it? But the, the thing is, like, I pretty much immediately recognized, like, all of those red flags along the way that I could totally control in the future. Like, there, it wasn't like this huge, objective hazard, like, random rock fall, or like, some sort of avalanche or something that you really can't predict. It was like, everything that happened was fully within my control.

• 35:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  I, I can choose when to go climbing. I can choose how much gear to place. Like, I can choose how fast to go. So I just felt like I had made all these mistakes. So I had a lot of agency moving forward in terms of what I could do differently.

• 36:12Rich Roll?

  What I took from that, though, was, uh, was something a little bit different. Like, you're in the hospital, and you're very upset. And you're like, I did everything right. I didn't do anything wrong. I did everything right. And, and to me, I was like, yeah, you can do everything right. And this is still what can happen. You know what I mean? So it's like, that idea that, oh, yes, I can control this because I know how to do all these moves and all of that. That's, that's where this, that's where it gets scary for me, you know? Because it's, you know, your, your husband talks a lot about like, ego versus humility. Like, he did a whole TED Talk on it, right? And so it's like, the humility required to understand that, yes, you can do everything right, and still, like, nature might have a different plan for you.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. And I think as climbers and mountain people, we kind of accept a certain level of that.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  You know, in everything, no matter where you fall on that risk spectrum.

• 37:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You go back the following year, uh, for the next season. You train your butt off. You, you know, you work all of those challenging aspects of the wall that were tripping you up previously.

• 37:25Rich Roll?

  And it's attempt number four and, and you're kind of like, I mean, we can like, I don't want to do like a race report type thing where we do like every aspect of this. I'm watching this going, please make it to the top because I don't know if I can handle watching her do this again from the bottom.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  I know so much.

• 37:41Rich Roll?

  But you're very close where you, you then fall and it's another like you see you fall and you see your head like hitting, hitting the rock and you're like, oh, we're, this is not happening again.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly what it felt like. That time it felt like I was doing everything right. I was just crushing it. I felt so good. And then I just kind of slipped and fell. And, and then I felt stupid for smashing my head and it just, yeah, it was just this crushing disappointment that I felt.

• 38:15Rich Roll?

  In that moment, um, you're very emotional. Uh, I mean, you essentially have like a breakdown. Your head is bleeding. Like it looks bad. Like I saw your head hit the rock. I'm like, who knows what actually, because you don't know, like this could be a really bad concussion. You don't, you don't actually know. Um, your confidence is erased. Like you're just a mess. You're a wreck. Um, you've got Alex there. You've got Adrian there. Um, and they're tending to you. But I thought it was so interesting that Adrian's like, as you begin to calm down, he's like, you know, I think you can do this. And I was like, oh my God, he's going to push her to do this? Like, I would have thought he would be like, look, there'll be another

• 39:00Rich Roll?

  day, you know, like your skills are dialed. Like, you know, it just wasn't your day. We're going to have to do this again. But for him to say, I know you and like, I know that, you know, you can make this happen. I was like, oh my God. I guess that's the climbing mentality. Cause it's like, who knows what's actually going on in your skull, you know, at that time. Also to beat to like, have all of your, you're like, all of your confidence is gone.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was the biggest thing.

• 39:25Rich Roll?

  All of these things you need.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we did do like a There was like a pretty heavy like first aid like concussion assessment to make sure that I was actually wasn't showing signs of concussion, which I didn't.

• 39:39Rich Roll?

  That didn't make it into the movie.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  No, I didn't lose consciousness. There was a lot of things that, you know, we're all like woofers, wilderness responders. So we like, we did the whole scenario. And Adrian is quite good at these situations because he encounters them a lot, just with his profession as a mountain guide. And so he was like, you know, he was rationally like, I think you're okay. We're up here. Really, the best way out of this is up because we're that high on the wall. It's quite hard to bail down. So it really was just like, okay, we either like ascend the ropes to get out and then walk the three hours down, you know?

• 40:21Rich Roll?

  The safest and quickest way to get out of here is to just complete this thing.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Or you try again. Because I, you know, he's like, or you try again because I think you're okay. Physically, you're okay. You don't have a concussion. So why not just give it another try? And I think that was the attitude that I needed to hear and that like true belief in me. When I really did like, you're right, confidence erased. This isn't happening. I can't believe this is happening again. Like, how, how could this be like disbelief? Just like kind of shattered, I think. My spirit was shattered. And I think, yeah, having him in that position and telling me that he thought I could do it and that I needed to try again was really, really important.

• 41:09Rich Roll?

  Obviously, he knows you better than anyone.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 41:12Rich Roll?

  And wouldn't have said that if he didn't truly believe that you could do it. So what makes that so profound for me is, you know, your, your husband, your life partner, like has that like kind of conviction and belief in you, which is really cool. And just the experience of, of

• 41:33Rich Roll?

  Of prevailing, like pushing through like that, you know, this is like, if it's a movie, this is like the second act, you know, like the, this is where all hope is lost, right?

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:43Rich Roll?

  And somehow you find a way to prevail and like, isn't that the whole, the whole like ballgame with climbing, like from you being 10 years old at the Boulder Reservoir and being like, I was scared, but I, but I overcame it and got to the top.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 41:58Rich Roll?

  And like, that is the most like, you know, on, on El Cap, like you're having the most extreme version of that experience.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  And it was, it was one of the more profound experiences of my life was like that climbing again. It really was that flow state, like it's hard to explain. It was like, I wasn't even there. It's like, I was watching myself in a way and I was just executing the moves and it felt easy.

• 42:25Rich Roll?

  How are you maintaining your energy levels over 21 hours, you know, on that, on that wall? Like what is the hydration and the feeling? I know, like you guys ran out of water, right?

• 42:35Speaker 01

  We did run out of water. That was a bummer. That was that right before the last hard pitch.

• 42:40Rich Roll?

  Not ideal, not ideal.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, you know, obviously like at first Alex was supporting me. So he was carrying a backpack and he was just like ascending the rope a lot of the times. And so he had a pretty heavy backpack with like snacks and water. And then Adrian actually came down from the top and he also brought like water and snacks. And so you're just kind of constantly feeling just like, you know, any like triathlon, ultra run type thing. Every hour you're, you're feeling every pitch, you're drinking water and eating a little bit.

• 43:06Rich Roll?

  What is it that you're eating? Like, are you eating like, you know, bars and nuts and things like that? What kind of food?

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Everybody, everybody's different. But yeah, I like bars and nuts and dried fruit. I didn't, I don't like to eat like real food up there as much as like, I remember Alex being like, you need to bring like a sandwich. I was like, I just don't, I don't think a sandwich is right for me.

• 43:28Rich Roll?

  Sandwich.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  But a lot of like, I also dealt with a lot of cramping. So like some, some salty things as well, like making sure to get electrolytes. Cause it's crazy. You'll like start on big walls, you'll start, your hands will start to cramp and they just kind of like form like this and you can't, you have to like physically open your fingers.

• 43:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like tetsi or whatever they call that.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know what it's called.

• 43:49Rich Roll?

  And like at some point you have to go to the bathroom, right? Like, how does that work?

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Uh, well, you just pee off the wall, basically. Um, and I'm very good at it. It's much harder for women, but I do have a good system that I use. Um, and then, yeah, on a 24 hour ascent, you generally go to the bathroom before, or you just don't go at all. Um, just because that's kind of like how your body works. But usually it is like very much leave no trace principles, much like in the mountains. So we carry wag bags with us. And then you just like carry it up and out.

• 44:21Rich Roll?

  You bring it out with you.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 44:22Rich Roll?

  Um, most people who, who do this climb that you did in 21 hours, do it over like five days, right?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, five to seven ish.

• 44:32Rich Roll?

  Five to seven days. And you're setting up, what is it called? Like where you kind of set up?

• 44:36Speaker 01

  A portal ledge?

• 44:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you're, and you're literally sleeping on the wall.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  It's like, and it's like a piece of nylon with aluminum poles and you kind of like construct it. And then it becomes really taut. And so you can sit on it and sleep on it and you set it up and clip it into the wall. And that's your.

• 44:53Rich Roll?

  How is it possible to fall asleep on those things?

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Oh, you'd be surprised. So I climbed Golden Gate for the first time. I climbed it over six days. It's also not in the film in 2015. Um, Adrian and I went up and climbed it over many days and, um, it's, it's interesting how like you just are doing so much all the time, all day, that when you finally do get to lay down and be horizontal, you just, you just fall asleep. Like it's amazing. Humans are very adaptable and in terms of like what, what are, you know, your body just goes to sleep.

• 45:25Rich Roll?

  Terrifying to me. I just, I'd be like, I would just be so like insanely afraid.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  You're still tied in, obviously.

• 45:32Rich Roll?

  Right. I know. That's like a trust thing though. It's like, I'm like, are those things really going to hold me?

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. No, but I guess as climbers, you kind of like get used to that from the beginning with trusting ropes and stuff. But for me, it's funny because if I go back to Yosemite or go back to a big wall and I'm up really high, I, it does take a while for me to trust everything. Like I have trouble sitting back. I have trouble trusting the rope. Like there's a lot of things where I get really weighed down.

• 45:59Rich Roll?

  What are they called? The, the pins in the rock, you know, that the calipers are on? Like, I don't know any of the terms. Yeah. Like the bolts, like, is that really gonna, is that gonna hold?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:08Rich Roll?

  And what is that?

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, usually.

• 46:10Rich Roll?

  Like when you're in the, in the, the crags or like the, um, the crevices and you have that like metal thing?

• 46:17Speaker 01

  The expand, the, the device that expands.

• 46:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was like, oh, that's handy.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  It's called a cam. So it's spring loaded. So you squeeze it and it contracts and you put it in the crack and it expands.

• 46:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And so you can literally, it will hold your body weight when you're pulling yourself.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Yep. And more, obviously.

• 46:30Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Like a lot of impact on falls and stuff. You know, they're tested, they're rated to hold much more, obviously.

• 46:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Um, yeah, I'm like, I don't know. Can I trust that thing?

• 46:40Speaker 01

  You baby steps though.

• 46:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I guess, right?

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Baby steps.

• 46:45Rich Roll?

  How do you train? Like, what is the, what is the training regimen? Like for this? Do you have a coach?

• 46:52Speaker 01

  I

• 46:52Rich Roll?

  Or how does that work?

• 46:53Speaker 01

  I didn't have a coach for Golden Gate in a day. Um, I do now actually, because it's just like a lot harder to fit in with a kid. Um, but training for it was really difficult because it's, it required, I mean, it required a really interesting set of fitness. Like, I equate it to having to run an ultra marathon, but at the end, you have to do your best mile splits.

• 47:20Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Because LCAP is, is kind of structured that way. The bottom, the bottom two thirds is the easiest climbing. And then the top is when the climbing gets steeper and much more difficult. Um, and so you had to know, you had to be able to climb 2,500 feet of like relatively easy terrain and then be able to execute really difficult moves way up high on the wall. So you had to have like strength and endurance. And, you know, I guess as athletes, you know, that like, it's really hard to kind of excel at both. Like the more endurance you have, generally that's when like your power and strength goes down. And so you're trying to find that perfect line where it's like you're capable of both.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  And for me, it was a lot of like, I trained a lot of, I trained a lot in the climbing gym. I trained my fingers a lot.

• 48:09Rich Roll?

  And you do that by?

• 48:10Speaker 01

  You literally just hang on a couple of edges and with different hand positions for periods of time. So that's something that climbers do that's, you know, very common. But then I also mimicked the day a lot. So one day I went to our local Crag and I climbed thirty-four pitches. And I tried to do the hardest ones at the very end. So I just like tried to mimic the day.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  And just a lot of climbing and then going to Yosemite a month beforehand and practicing the pitches. And I did like sections of the route, like at one point, my friend Jordan and I, who was also trying to climb Golden Gate in a day. We did like, we basically did it in two days. Like we climbed from the bottom up to the middle. And then the next day or two days later, we wrapped down to the very middle and climbed out. So you're kind of just like building that fitness, yeah, over time.

• 49:01Rich Roll?

  And are you doing anything like in the gym or aerobically that isn't as climbing specific?

• 49:08Speaker 01

  I mean, I've always been a trail runner. And I think that like having that like base level fitness helps, especially with like the hiking and stuff that you do in Yosemite. It's just a lot of big days where you don't want to get, you want to be fit enough that like the approaches and the descents don't exhaust you. So I definitely trail run like kind of probably like two or three times a week.

• 49:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And do you taper or periodize that? Like how specific does it get?

• 49:36Speaker 01

  It gets pretty specific now. I think when I was training for Golden Gate, it was a little bit like, you definitely rest a lot before the attempt, like up to four or five days. And yeah, trying to taper a little bit, not climbing as often, but when you are climbing, having really high quality days.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  And yeah, I try to, I try to build my strength and power early, early on, because that's, that type of strength takes longer to acquire, but it also stays with you a little bit longer. And then leading up to a trip or project like this, like building on that endurance.

• 50:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, you were pretty jacked in the movie.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:15Rich Roll?

  You were like.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I worked really, really hard.

• 50:19Rich Roll?

  Firing on all cylinders, like so strong. It's crazy.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  I worked really hard. I went sport climbing a bunch that summer and I, yeah, like I said, I was like trying to climb. Really hard sport climbing grades like 514, which is like an elite level grade. But then, you know, usually if you're just trying to climb those grades, you try a hard route and then you'd stop and you'd rest and that's all you'd do. But for me, I was like trying the hardest route and then I would keep climbing after that. You know, kind of just like burn out the whole, my whole body.

• 50:48Rich Roll?

  So there's a physical aspect of it, but there's also the whole mindset, mental side of it. I remember in Free Solo, it's sort of like, you know, Alex decides when he wakes up, like, am I right with myself today for this to be the day? Like having that like internal connection with yourself so that you're, you know, you can show up as your best self. And in the movie, there's one short clip where, you know, you're on the phone with your sports psychologist. Right? So talk a little bit about the mental side of it and how you train and prepare that aspect of, of your craft.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I do work with a mental health coach. And she helps me a lot with the performance side of things, which, you know, I think that mental side of, of athletics is, has been overlooked. I think now it's kind of like definitely being talked about a lot more. It's a muscle that you have to kind of train just as much as your body. And so, you know, we do a lot of like, kind of like validation of how we're feeling or how I'm feeling and leaning into those feelings and allowing them to exist. And then kind of like, I guess the shift comes in terms of like how we relate to those feelings, how you relate to how you're feeling that day and kind of how you can make small shifts.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  And a lot of it, a lot of it for Golden Gate came down to like really trusting myself, trusting my process and my path and the way that I was going to do it.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Because it did feel like I was needing to do things a little bit differently than people who came, you know, who did it before me. And so I did need mentorship and I needed guidance and I needed help. But at the end of the day, I also, it was very mental and it took a lot of belief in myself and trust in myself and a lot of like my own understanding what my own needs were up there and how I wanted to do it.

• 52:41Rich Roll?

  Were there certain techniques or practices that were helpful?

• 52:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. The one that comes to mind that I'm really proud of is there's one pitch called the Monster Off With and it's not actually like graded that hard, but what it is, is it's a, it's just a 200 foot crack that's like six inches or so wide and that type of climbing is really difficult because you can't just like jam your hands in there and climb. They won't, they're too big. So you're essentially jamming half of your body into this crack and ascending. It's what we call like wide climbing or off with climbing and you really don't see that much of that type of climbing anywhere else but on big walls in places like Yosemite. And so I wasn't very good at it. I'd never really done it. It's a very specific skill.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  And it was kind of like a running joke since 2015 that I was like particularly bad at that style of climbing. And I just, the first time I did it, I wore a giant hole in my elbow and my shoulder and it was just like, it kind of like a mess. It completely depleted me too. And it's right in the middle of the wall. So you really can't be tired after that pitch. But what was happening to me is all these like male climbers were telling me like, you have to like kind of cam your foot in the crack. So you kind of span the, span the crack with your foot and you have like your heel in the back part and your toe on the outside and you're kind of like shuffling your foot up like this.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  But I have a size six woman's foot and so my foot like just wouldn't span it basically. I was just flailing around, which is why it was like all on my upper body and I was just getting so exhausted. And so ultimately, what I decided was to do was make my foot bigger.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  So what I did was I put my climbing shoe on and then there's like kind of a hard section of climbing to like get into the crack. So I climbed that section with my climbing shoes, like my climbing shoes. And then I got into the crack. I wedged my body in. Alex tied his climbing shoes to the rope and I pulled them across. I put his climbing shoes on over my climbing shoes and it made my foot the same size as his.

• 54:53Rich Roll?

  So you could wedge it in there and it would support your weight and you could like

• 54:57Speaker 01

  And I could climb up and it was like night and day, the difference. So it was kind of cool. And then also, what makes me more proud is a lot of women who have, and some men who have smaller feet, who have climbed that route now, use that technique.

• 55:19Rich Roll?

  You were off the charts competitive when you were a kid. I mean, the movie does a pretty good job of telling that part of your story. I mean, where does that like fire come from? Is that just the family that you were raised in? I mean, you were just getting after it like a maniac.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I was born that way a little bit, grew up an only child. But I had these two cousins who were around the same age as me, who were boys. And I just, ever since I can remember, it was just like, constant battling at whatever we were doing to be better than the other one.

• 55:58Rich Roll?

  Across like every sport or every daily activity, like competing for, you know, over chores and stuff like that and just trying to get the best of them.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, like who could, like, I remember once when I was a kid, we were like, daring each other to like, jump off the second floor balcony onto the couch in the house, you know? And it was like, it was like, who could do it first? And so it was just always this kind of like, competitive, like, who could go further, who could do more, who can take the most risk? Like, it was, it was just constant.

• 56:32Rich Roll?

  And you were doing lots of different things. So what was it about climbing that you, that like you locked in on and, and that made you decide like, oh, this is, this is the thing that I'm going to focus on?

• 56:44Speaker 01

  I remember the first time I climbed and it was at the Boulder Reservoir, outside of Boulder, Colorado. And I was with my cousins and we, we spent a lot of time on that lake, water skiing in the summer. And there was this artificial wall that they'd set up for a festival. And they were letting the kids climb it. And I remember, um, my cousins really wanted to try it. And I, I actually vividly remember, I, we just had like our swimsuits and I was super embarrassed to like, climb in my swimsuit for some reason. And so I was really resistant to it. But because they did it, I, I was like, okay, well now I have to do it. And, uh, I just remember the feeling of climbing.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  And it was like, I was, as I got higher and higher, I felt more and more afraid, but I kept pushing, kept pushing. And then I got to the top and I just, I remember this mix of fear and apprehension, but I had somehow managed to push through that. And it was just this really powerful feeling for me. And as soon as I came down, I looked at my dad and I was like, how do we, like, how do I do this again? Where can we go? Like, I want to do this.

• 57:57Rich Roll?

  So the added element of risk and fear and danger, like kind of elevated the stakes, like is that, is that like, because it's obviously like, it's a very different kind of sport, right? In that like, there's so much danger and peril involved. It takes a very specific person to be like, okay, this is my deal.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I don't think if, I don't think as like a 10 year old girl, I don't think I felt like I was in any danger. I, I just felt the sensation of being able to overcome

• 58:28Rich Roll?

  Pushing through it.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Certain things and push through it. Yeah. Because the style of climbing that I got into is actually incredibly safe. It's indoor climbing, competition climbing. It's very focused on that. I was also a gymnast at a young age and so it really translated well. Um, having that body awareness and upper body strength and flexibility. And I, I think I also knew that I was good at it. I knew that I had talent. Uh, so that was, that was very helpful. And then, yeah, the added like feeling of fear, but being able to work with that fear and overcome it. Was really powerful for me.

• 59:03Rich Roll?

  It appears like you you ascended the ranks like pretty quickly. Once you focused on it like, you know, it's just competition after competition and you start, you know, standing on top of podiums all over the place and there's World Cups. There's like a whole like circuit and world to this this kind of competition, right? The climbing competition side of the sport.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, now it's very established and it's an Olympic sport. Back then it was still pretty, you know, pretty well established. There was national level competitions, World Cup competitions. There was a youth circuit that I joined pretty quickly. And that was that was my thing for probably the first decade of my climbing.

• 59:43Rich Roll?

  So that goal at that time was how far can I go with this? Can I take it all the way to the Olympic level? I mean, this was before it was in the Olympics, obviously.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't in the Olympics yet, but that was obviously my dream. I wanted to be a world champion and win World Cups. My coach was this woman, Robin, Erbusfield Robbitou, who was a four-time World Cup champion. And she's actually the mother of Brooke Robbitou, who just won a silver medal in the Olympics for climbing and is one of the best rock climbers in the world now. So yeah, that was like my dream was to was to be like that.

• 1:00:17Rich Roll?

  And what happened?

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Basically, I continued to do competitions throughout my teenage years into my early twenties. I got really very, I put a lot of pressure on myself. I started to kind of spiral into like a little bit of darkness, I would say, towards climbing. And climbing became a little bit of a punishment for me. And I really had wrapped my identity in it and into the success of it. And having that like perfectionist attitude mixed with the the pressure of wanting to win all the time, wanting to succeed, I developed a pretty, you know, a pretty substantial like.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Poor relationship with food and nutrition. I would say it was an eating disorder. Um, I was, I was very, very thin and I was real, I was really under fueling. And a, as a result, I was very successful for several years. Um, I started winning competitions. I was the best competition climber in the country for a while. Uh, but it just, you know, as we, as we all know, it just was a very unsustainable way to live. And eventually I, I burned out.

• 1:01:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's a couple of things going on. There's the self identifying with, uh, with your performance. Like you're a good person or a bad person, depending upon how well you climb.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:01:46Rich Roll?

  Uh, and then the control issues, like if I can just get myself lean enough so that I can, you know, scurry up that, that, you know, that incline as quickly as possible. Um, then I can achieve these goals and, and, and, and be perfect. Right. And setting that, setting that standard of perfection, you know, obviously is a form of, of self punishment.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Yep, that's exactly what it was.

• 1:02:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How did you finally kind of have a reckoning with that?

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  I would say that it, it's probably still ongoing in, in some ways. I don't think I've ever like fully like, I, I wouldn't say that I am fully like a hundred percent healthy all the time with my attitude. Uh, but obviously I've matured and I think what I realized was if I was going to continue to be a climber, if I wanted to continue climbing, I needed to change some things about the approach. And that took several years. I mean, it was a long, it was a lot of back and forth. It was a lot of like taking a break and going back to climbing. And then, you know, the, the thing that actually happened was I joined the, the North Face Global Athlete Team and was able to kind of.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  Experience climbing through these other athletes on the team who definitely practiced different avenues of it, but they also had like a different attitude towards climbing. It was, it took a different role in their lives and that was really eye opening for me.

• 1:03:13Rich Roll?

  Well, there's one thing to be an indoor climber. What do you, what do you call it? Like when you're doing the indoor walls and like there's speed climb, there's different disciplines within that.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Competition climber.

• 1:03:22Rich Roll?

  But everything's being scored and there's a clock and like, you know, it's all heightened and in this contained environment versus, you know, you're in nature and you're out, it's like a different relationship. So the evolution, like the change is not only your relationship with the sport, but also with yourself, right? How do you find a sustainable way to do this thing that you love? That is like nourishing rather than self punishing.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that took a period of time, you know, as a, as a, an athlete in your early twenties. Like it was a lot of, it was a lot of struggle to get to that point.

• 1:03:58Rich Roll?

  I have to imagine that there's a lot of disordered eating in the climbing world.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  There's a lot of disordered eating.

• 1:04:05Rich Roll?

  With men too, I would imagine, probably more quietly even.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Yep. I think it's more quietly done and you know, it is a, a strength to weight ratio sport. The less mass you have, the easier it is to, to pull yourself up the wall. And there's been a lot of attempts in, in recent years to kind of address that. Um, one thing in particular is the way that the like competition routes are set now. Um, they're set that in a way that, uh, kind of rewards strength and power. And in order to be powerful and have that type of strength, you need to have a bit more muscle.

• 1:04:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  So that's been kind of an attempt at, at acknowledging it, but it, I think it will always be an issue in some ways.

• 1:04:50Rich Roll?

  There's, there's that, that body aesthetic too, like being super wiry.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:55Rich Roll?

  Um, and you know, I'm much older than you, but I remember in my twenties, like I knew a bunch of climbers and, and like a lot of them like started smoking cigarettes so they could lose weight. Like that's a whole thing in that world too, right?

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cigarettes and just kind of trying to get cut weight as quickly as possible. Like, yeah, it's, it's definitely a thing.

• 1:05:15Rich Roll?

  So you you go to college and you graduate college and that's when the North Face relationship begins?

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  It begins right when I graduated college. I was 20 when I graduated.

• 1:05:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And at what point are you invited to do this Everest expedition? Was it, it was shortly after that?

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  A few years after that. I, yeah, I joined the team as like a sport climber. So still outdoor climbing, but really trying to just climb the hardest routes and a competition climber. And I gradually started just practicing other styles of climbing. I started ice climbing a little bit. And I

• 1:05:53Rich Roll?

  That's the gnarliest.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's not my favorite.

• 1:05:57Rich Roll?

  That just seems like the most dangerous version of it.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  It's just

• 1:06:00Rich Roll?

  Version of climbing.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  I mean, I think it can be like beautiful and fun in a lot of ways. And I think it's a very good skill. For me, I'm like, I'm glad I know how to do it, but it's not something I pursue regularly. Also, it's like, why would you go ice climbing in the winter when you can go skiing?

• 1:06:16Rich Roll?

  There's a couple of clips in the movie of you ice climbing, but my frame of reference for that is the Alpinist documentary because you're like, whoa, you know, that is so intense.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  And the Alpinist is like, obviously Alpinism is like an entirely other avenue of climbing that's like the more, the more you try to excel in in that realm, the definitely the more danger you're taking on for sure.

• 1:06:39Rich Roll?

  So you're expanding. I mean, you know, Adrian always talks about how you're like the most, you know, diversified, like well-rounded climber in the world, but you're so you're you're expanding like your your skill set and your capacity and all these different types of terrain.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  I was definitely expanding my skill set. And what what happened was Conrad Anker actually invited me to go to the Kumbu Climbing School, which is the nonprofit that was founded in memory of Alex Low. And it's basically an instruction program for high altitude workers for Sherpa to learn the necessary skills to work on mountains like Mount Everest.

• 1:07:15Rich Roll?

  And Alex Low was Conrad's climbing partner who perished on

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  On Chichapanga.

• 1:07:21Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  An avalanche. Yep.

• 1:07:22Rich Roll?

  And then he married Alex's widow.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Jenny.

• 1:07:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:27Rich Roll?

  Conrad's the best.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, Conrad is wonderful.

• 1:07:29Rich Roll?

  He's the godfather to everybody in the climbing community, isn't he?

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  He really is.

• 1:07:33Rich Roll?

  He's just an amazing human being.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, he is wonderful. And he he definitely Kind of helped expose me to a different world of climbing through his mentorship. I mean, he invited me to go to the KCC and basically our role in the KCC was to help instruct Sherpa to learn how to belay. He wanted us to develop a climbing area closer to their town of Fort Say. So bolting a little crag near their town. So I went in 2011 with Matt Siegel, who's a really close friend of mine, also a rock climber on the team, and Cedar Wright. And we went to Fort Say and spent three weeks there and bolted roots and just like existed in the Himalaya.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  And I just thought it was the most amazing experience of my entire life.

• 1:08:25Rich Roll?

  And so the invitation from Conrad to go on this Everest expedition

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Happened a year later.

• 1:08:31Rich Roll?

  Came out of that.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, basically, I think it came out of that.

• 1:08:33Rich Roll?

  So you put in a little work, because in the movie, it makes it sound like, oh, you've never done anything and like suddenly you're on Everest.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  No, no, I was ice climbing and I was, yeah, it was winter, you know, going on some winter camping trips. And I was just like, I just really was craving this different experience entirely. I really wanted to go on an expedition. And that's where the invitation came from, essentially, was through that. He saw that fascination in me.

• 1:09:00Rich Roll?

  What was the difference between what you imagined Everest would be and the actual experience of it?

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  You know, it's hard to remember. I think I went in like a deer in headlights. Like, I just had no idea what it was going to be about, but I think that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted something that was entirely new, a place where I was going to learn a lot. I just wanted to be somewhere different. And I didn't want to have to think about performance and climbing hard and training. I just wanted to go and exist in the mountains.

• 1:09:35Rich Roll?

  Well, there's certainly no perfection, you know, in that, in that environment or context, right?

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:41Rich Roll?

  Like, nature, you know, writ as large as possible, like, is going to have its say. And so whatever you have in your mind about how you're going to do this perfectly. Is an impossibility anyway. So it kind of dispenses with all of that.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  Totally. Yep, exactly. It's expedition, expeditioning is like this total skill in itself. And people who are good at it are people who are really capable of dealing with that uncertainty and that imperfection. And when things go wrong and when you don't feel your best. And I learned that really quickly. I got really sick right at the beginning of the trip. I spent two weeks just like laying in a tent with an upper respiratory infection. And it was brutal. Like it was, it was awful. It was probably the sickest I've ever been.

• 1:10:23Rich Roll?

  What was the most unexpected challenge of it?

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  The length of the trip was, it was the kind of trip where you feel like you're gonna be there forever and every day is the same. And it just almost feels like nothing happens. And it was like, I couldn't even remember what it felt like to be home. And so I think that the stagnation of, of that expedition was really challenging mentally. Because yeah, there's not, there's not a lot going on, on a two and a half month trip. That you're not, you're not doing a whole lot most days. And so you're definitely just left with your thoughts in a lot of ways.

• 1:11:06Rich Roll?

  Hanging out in a tent.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  In a yellow tent.

• 1:11:08Rich Roll?

  Base camp.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:11:10Rich Roll?

  What is your feeling about the commercialization of Everest? You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a bit of a sticky wicket for you because your husband, he basically goes there every year and takes people up, right? And so there's a lot of ink spilled about how crowded it is and like how it's, you know, become this thing. You know, there's a lot of like lament about it. But you've done it and your husband is, you know, this incredibly skilled, you know, guide for so many people. So how do you, like, what is your take on all of that?

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so my take on Mount Everest, it's, I mean, it's a little bit parroting what I hear from Adrian because I'm just so in it constantly. Like, I thought I was gonna go to Mount Everest and have completed that, that goal and then never have to think about it again.

• 1:11:58Rich Roll?

  But every year.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  And now it's every year.

• 1:12:01Rich Roll?

  He's packing his stuff.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:12:03Rich Roll?

  If there's one big takeaway from the movie, or like all climbing movies for that matter, it's that climbers spend most of their time like, you know, folding their ropes and packing their gear. The amount of gear and like knowing where everything is. And it's just like, that is insane.

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  It is an insane amount of logistics. But yeah, I think I have a lot of gratitude for my experience on Mount Everest. It changed my life. It truly changed my life. And I think it does that for a lot of people. And therefore I do think that it is a valuable experience. And obviously, my husband owns a guide company that guides on Mount Everest. I am biased. I think people have really powerful, incredible experiences on that mountain. I think mountain guiding is an amazing way for people to like, experience suffering, learn about themselves. I think there's immense value in that. Obviously, there's issues with Mount Everest, endless issues that I hear about constantly.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  And I don't need to go into it because I'm not like a mountain guide, I'm not the expert. But obviously, there's issues and there's improvements. You know, for Adrian, it's totally his passion. He's chosen this as his cause. He wants to make it a better place. He wants to make it better for everyone. And I think that that's amazing. And I do have a lot of, I do have a lot of gratitude towards, towards that place. I will say it's a very love hate relationship for me because like the Everest show, when it's, when you're prepared, when Adrian's preparing for an expedition on Everest, that is like all anybody wants to talk about. It's all anybody wants to do. And for me, that, that gets tiresome.

• 1:13:41Rich Roll?

  You're like, okay, here we go again.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  I have actually nicknamed.

• 1:13:44Rich Roll?

  We're gonna do this again next year.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  I've nicknamed Mount Everest Steve because it's just like this presence in my life. That we always joke about Steve. It's just always there. Everyone's always wanting to talk about it. And sometimes you just want Steve to shut up.

• 1:14:01Rich Roll?

  And every year, you know, he packs up and it's like he's gone for four months, right?

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, he's better now. Because he does the hypoxic training.

• 1:14:10Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  The altitude 10.

• 1:14:11Rich Roll?

  Accelerated experiences.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  So it's accelerated. So it's around 35 days. It's not so bad. But the lead up is, it's a lot of prep.

• 1:14:18Rich Roll?

  The risk never, you know, goes down on that. So every year, it's like, okay, you know, we're entering into this bargain where, you know, there's a chance that, you know, you might not come back. I mean, this is the world of climbing, though, you know, every one of these expeditions and being married and having a child, you know, I want to talk about that as well. Like, the stakes are higher, obviously.

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  The stakes are higher. Yep. And I think that we've definitely, both of us have kind of like toned it back significantly since we've had a child. There's a lot less that we're willing to do. There's a lot of experiences that just don't have the same value that they used to. And so I would say we're definitely kind of on the same page with, in terms of the level of risk that we, that we take when it comes to our professions now.

• 1:15:06Rich Roll?

  If you look at LCAP and compare and contrast it with Everest, like, what is the, what is the delta on the skill sets? Like, what do you need to excel on LCAP? And what do you, what's different about like, having a successful, you know, summit of Everest in terms of like, just like general fitness or approach or technique or mindset?

• 1:15:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think like, it depends on what kind of goal you're talking about. You're talking about free climbing LCAP in a day versus climbing Mount Everest with oxygen?

• 1:15:41Rich Roll?

  I mean, there's a million permutations.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  Like, there's a lot of different permutations.

• 1:15:43Rich Roll?

  Pick one. I guess I'm just taking, like, from a layperson's perspective, like, how do you differentiate these two things? Because they're both climbing, but they're very different things.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Everest is, is very much like, how much can you suffer for a long period of time? Like, how?

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  How painful can it get and you continue to keep going? Like it is, it is very much that.

• 1:16:07Rich Roll?

  And also like sleep deprivation and like low oxygen environments.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Unable to eat properly, like really, truly, we're not supposed to exist in this environment. How, how much can you, can you endure essentially? You know, and then climbing on LCAP, free climbing, we'll use that for example. It just, it requires a lot of technical skill and experience. Like you can't just, a lot of people can train for Everest and be really physically fit for, through other sports, cycling or running or whatever that may be, and train specifically for Everest for maybe a year or something like that. And then go and successfully climb it with oxygen.

• 1:16:48Rich Roll?

  You're not going up LCAP.

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  But you're not going to free climb LCAP coming from like a different background. Like you have to be a rock climber. So that's a little bit different, I would say.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  You know, if you're talking about climbing Everest without oxygen, as Adrian has done, and something I have not attempted, I, I think that that requires a level of experience in the mountains that not a lot of people have. So it's probably a little bit more easily compared. And the depth of suffering, I think, is incredibly intense. I will say that I think like, I think that there's like a genetic component to people excelling at high altitude without oxygen. Like I think some people are very just like.

• 1:17:28Rich Roll?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  Naturally.

• 1:17:29Rich Roll?

  Some people are just, are able to manage that better than others.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Adrian, for example, it's like crazy how good he can be.

• 1:17:38Rich Roll?

  Are there, does he do like physiological tests? Like is it relates to like VO2 max or?

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  No, I don't think it's related to VO2 max.

• 1:17:45Rich Roll?

  Or any of those kinds of things?

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  I really don't. And he will tell you that he like, he gets so stressed before expeditions and he, he thinks he's going to like, get crushed by his client and everyone's going to be better than him. And I'm just like, dude, you're going to be, you're totally sandbagging everyone. You're going to be fine. Like you, you of all people could literally sit on a couch for six months and go climb Everest and be fine.

• 1:18:07Rich Roll?

  He feels that way though, after having, you know, with so much experience. But you're no stranger to this. I mean, you've talked about imposter syndrome.

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  Totally, absolutely. I think everyone to some extent feels that way. I feel that way right now about my movie and I, I totally get it.

• 1:18:22Rich Roll?

  Really? You, what do you, like, what is your fear?

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  My fear is that like core, like really core climbers aren't gonna think it's like cool enough or not good enough or like, I'm not really that good of a rock climber and therefore like, why am I the one who's, you know, blasted on an IMAX screen?

• 1:18:42Rich Roll?

  Well, you're, cause you're the only one who did this thing and you had to do it for time. Like it's a very human, relatable story on one level, but it's also a story that's very inside baseball. Like there's a specific way of doing these things and within the world of climbing, like any subculture, there's all this, this etiquette and certain ways that you're supposed to do it, you know, in order to be considered legit and all of that, you know, that plays into it. I know like in running, there's a, like an online forum called Let's Run and in triathlon, there's one called Slow Twitch and that's where, you know, all the haters go and like, you know, bag on people. Like I'm sure there's something similar in climbing, right? Where everyone talks shit about it. It's like, you

• 1:19:27Rich Roll?

  know, like as soon as you, it's like a tall poppy thing, right? As soon as you achieve something great, like everyone wants to tell you why you're not so great or why it wasn't what people think it is.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I think in order to protect yourself, you kind of tell yourself those things ahead of time so that you're like prepared for when the haters come. And I guess that's what I do a little bit, but also I try to like, I try to like not go into those places.

• 1:19:52Rich Roll?

  Well, it's a tricky equation. Like you're trying to thread the needle with this movie because you want it to appeal to a mass wide audience that isn't that familiar with climbing and tell a very human story, but it also, you also want to make sure that the climbing community, you know, is satisfied and, and that, you know, that the sport is being managed deftly, you know, and, and so they feel like they're represented in that story accurately.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:20:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And that's, that's hard, that's hard to do.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  It is hard to do. And I, I do, you know, when I'm thinking like rationally and um, yeah, I think it's done well. I do think that it's,

• 1:20:30Rich Roll?

  It's done very well.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  It's good. Yeah. Thank you. It's a good climbing film.

• 1:20:34Rich Roll?

  Let me disabuse you of your imposter syndrome.

• 1:20:38Rich Roll?

  Like I said, like I'm a layperson who knows some climbers, but knows nothing about climbing. And I was, I was enthralled by the whole experience of watching it.

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:20:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But I think what I appreciated about it most was just the, the, um, the vulnerability that you demonstrated. And you really get like how much you cared about this, how hard it was, what you were like risking to, um, you know, to achieve this goal and the difficulty of it. Like, I think that we're a little bit warped because of Free Solo. And it's like, well, if you're not like, you know, doing it like that, then like, who cares?

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:15Rich Roll?

  But in watching your thing is like, oh, like, well, wait a minute. Alex did this thing. And like, you're just trying to do this thing with ropes on in a day? Like, how hard can that be? Like, not understanding like the context and, and, and, and the difficulty of it. And also not appreciating, like, I think there's this sense also like, oh, there's this rock face. And yeah, there's a couple different ways to get up there. But like,

• 1:21:41Rich Roll?

  you guys all know, like, every crag and minutia of this entire ascent. And there's a name for like, every move that you have to make in every specific place. And you're rappelling down from the summit just to practice those specific moves on that specific, you know, little piece of rock. So that when you get there on the day, you're going to be able to master it. Like, there's a level of, like, focus and intentionality and granularity to the whole thing that I don't know that I fully understood either.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Yes, that on a granular, granular level, you have to get really detailed with it. And that's really hard to do on a 3,200 foot piece of rock.

• 1:22:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's also a COVID movie.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:24Rich Roll?

  You know, it's like, here's what we did.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Everybody loves a COVID movie.

• 1:22:27Rich Roll?

  Here's what we did during COVID, you know? Like, I don't know what you were doing, like watching Netflix, but like, here's what we did, you know? And you're like, okay, now I talk about imposters. And it's like, oh, now I feel bad about how I wasted all my time.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I was just so grateful that I had the project while COVID was happening. Like it was, I was just like right in the thick of it when COVID was happening. So it was just this very nice, like, oh, well, this is what I'm going to focus on.

• 1:22:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:22:52Rich Roll?

  There's also, uh, it has the device that every, you know, kind of thriller movie has, which is a ticking clock. So the backdrop to this is like, you do want to have a family and you do want to have a kid, but you've got unfinished business and like, this is something you feel very strongly you want to achieve before you, um, enter into a new phase of life. And if you're not going to achieve it, like, what does that mean? What happens? Like, do you delay starting your family and hang on to this goal? Or do you give it up?

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think it's a, a really intense struggle that a lot of women go through. And so I think that's why it's also like very relatable for a lot of women is that when you reach a certain age, you start to ask those questions and you start to hear things and it just becomes so anxiety inducing. And for me, that was like, just this constant, it was just, yeah, it was like, there was a ticking clock above my head.

• 1:23:49Rich Roll?

  So enter stage left, Hilary Nelson. Like you talked about Conrad Anker being a mentor, but you know, she's, she's the real, you know, kind of mentor, um, throughout this whole story, who, who is, who is kind of your, um, confidant throughout the entire process as a, as a mother and obviously as this like incredible icon. So share a little bit about your relationship with her.

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I met Hilary on Everest, so she was also invited on that expedition and I didn't know her at the time. I didn't really know much about her because I was just a rock climber. And, um, it was, it was interesting because at the beginning she kind of, uh, She just didn't really want to have to take responsibility for me. She didn't want to have to like mentor me. She was there to like do her own thing and excel in her world and like she didn't, she didn't want to babysit some little girl who'd

• 1:24:44Rich Roll?

  I kind of like that about her. She's like, I don't want to deal with this person. I'm here for me.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  Totally. And she owns it. And she's just like, I'm here to do my thing and I'm here to climb Everest and Lutze. And I like, this is what I'm here to do. I'm not here to babysit. Um, so she was, she was harsh a little bit at first. Uh, but I think we connected in a lot of ways because I think I, in some ways, I think I surprised her on that trip with my resilience and my kind of like ability to suffer. And I think without Hillary, I might not have continued on that path of, of diversifying my climbing, of, of, of going on big expeditions, because she was the one who,

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  after that trip, just kept inviting me on other, other trips, other expeditions, and kind of ushered me into this world of a little bit of alpinism, a little bit of ski mountaineering, adventure, expedition type of world. And that, those were some of the most like formative years of my life, I think, in terms of how I developed as an athlete and a woman. And she was that big sister figure for me, that person who I kind of looked to, to the beginning of my career, when I was a 20 year old competition climber, I was like, oh, I'm gonna do competitions, become world champion, rock climb really hard, then I'm gonna probably have kids and then it'll be over. Cause that's

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  just the path, that that's just how it is. Um, and she defied that path. And she showed what was possible for me as a woman.

• 1:26:22Rich Roll?

  What about her made her so iconic and amazing?

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  I mean, she was kind of like a Wonder Woman, you know, she looked the part for one thing. And then also,

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  She was someone who just did not give up ever. Like if she wanted to do something, that's what she was gonna do. And she was gonna work every angle in order to make it happen. And she was gonna push and push and push until she got it done. And if that meant going back to Pakistan or India to go ski an unskied peak. It didn't matter. She was gonna go back and she was gonna do it. And she was gonna do it all while having a family and balancing being a mom and a professional athlete. And she just did it, not always gracefully, of course, but she did it. And that's what made her so special.

• 1:27:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Share for people who don't know what happened with her.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Hillary was skiing or she was on an expedition with her partner, Jim Morrison. Also a North Face athlete, also like incredibly prolific ski mountaineer. And they were climbing Monaslu, which is the eighth tallest peak in the world in Nepal. And they had summited the mountain and they were skiing off the summit. And she, from my understanding, she triggered like a tiny little avalanche. But it was like, wouldn't have been anything except that it was over massive exposure. And she essentially got pushed off the side of the mountain and died.

• 1:28:05Rich Roll?

  I mean, that was, you know, that was like an earthquake in the climbing community, obviously. But it's, it's, it's such a strange, interesting and surreal thing. Because everybody in your community understands that, you know, this is always kind of a risk. This is, you're putting your life on the line every time you do this. And yet, when it happens and, you know, when it happens to somebody like her, it's still, you know, shocking.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's, I think about that a lot because it's like the.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  The closer you are to the event happening, the more like afraid and sad and tragic, it seems. And, and then you kind of like go back to base level of like continuing to live your life. And then it happens again and it just keeps happening. And it's almost like, yeah, it's almost like as humans, we should, we should be able to grasp it more. But I still find myself being unable to grasp it when, when things like that happen. And the Hillary one was particularly hard for me because I was actually very pregnant at the time when it happened. And so it just hit me in this way that was, it still sticks with me, I think.

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  It's one of the, one of the only ones in my life where it's still like a little jarring every time I think about it. And yeah, it's, it's been, uh, it's been really, it's kind of changed a lot about what I, what I think about as a mom and, and the risks I take.

• 1:29:39Rich Roll?

  In what way?

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know if it's because of Hillary or if it's just because of like going through having a child. But I'm like very, uh, I'm much more risk averse than I was before in a lot of ways. Like there's a lot of times and I think it's a, I think it does hinder me. There's a lot of times where I think about the worst case scenario and what could happen. And it prevents me from doing things.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  But at the same time, there is a, a decent level of comfort with that place that I'm in now. Like it's almost like I just don't need to do those things.

• 1:30:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you proved yourself. There's nothing for you to prove. Like if you had not achieved that goal on El Cap though, maybe you might be taking some different risks right now. But because you did, you can be like, it's cool.

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it's really interesting. Like I thought that I wouldn't be that way though. Like, I don't think. I think Hillary continued to to push and continued to go on big expeditions and and do really rad things. Granted, her like, discipline was quite a bit different than mine. Ski mountaineering is a different like, style of of mountain experience that does carry a lot of inherent risk. And I think in rock climbing, I can kind of pivot to to ways that feel like quite a bit safer, but still challenging and still rewarding. And I think that I'm really lucky for that. But for me, I just am like, it's like, I have no, it's like, maybe I could do that. I could go to these places. I could, it's

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  possible for me to do these things, but I just don't have, I don't see the value in them as much. I'm not going to get out of them.

• 1:31:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the the risk analysis, like, the cost benefit of it. It's like, okay, if I do it, and I, okay, I will feel this way, or whatever. But like, what am I wagering? Yeah, for that experience?

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  But I'm, I think I'm lucky because I have these other ways of expressing myself in climbing that are still super challenging and hard for me. But it just feels

• 1:31:41Rich Roll?

  Not as perilous.

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  It's not as perilous. It feels way more within my comfort zone. And I'm just really grateful for that.

• 1:31:48Rich Roll?

  I only met Hillary once. You know, I spent the better part of the day with her because she came and did the show when I was still doing it in my house. And then she had a speaking engagement. And I drove her and dropped her off like, you know, for that. And and so I got to, you know, it's not like she was my buddy, or I knew, you know, like, I only had that one experience with her. I mean, but it was, it was very meaningful experience to me. And and I used to do the podcast in in this room in my house, as I said, and now that room is is our TV room. So last night, I'm watching the documentary, and I see her on screen. And I was like, oh, she was sitting right here. And she's here. And it's like, and I got like, really emotional about it. There's something just so special about her.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's very true. I think she was a special one. And I think she changed, I think she changed the world in a lot of ways, our world for women. I think she was one of the first women who kind of continued her career after having children. And I, yeah, I think that that was important. I think she made it easier for a lot of us.

• 1:32:54Rich Roll?

  Is it your, you know, hope that the the film and kind of what you accomplish and what you achieved, you know?

• 1:33:02Rich Roll?

  Updates that narrative around, you know, women on the wall?

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I hope that this story is the first of many female stories in climbing that are highlighted because climbing is this really unique sport where in terms of like the upper, upper levels, men and women are quite a bit closer in terms of what they're capable of because climbing does reward flexibility and body awareness and a lot of these things that women tend to be

• 1:33:35Rich Roll?

  They're better at.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  Be a little bit better at. And so the level is, the gap is, is closing. And then you also see like these achievements, like Lynn Hill's achievement, that are just so incredibly groundbreaking that are done by women. And so I just think it's, I think they're valuable stories to be told because it's, it really is a unique sport and that we are much, much closer to men in terms of what we're capable of.

• 1:34:00Rich Roll?

  It's such an incredible vehicle for self-actualization also, you know, just climbing itself, like the kind of battle between ego and humility and, and, you know, really having to position yourself and put, you know, put yourself in these uncomfortable situations, deeply uncomfortable, you know, situations where, you know, not only is the fear, you know, profound, but you know, so is the, so are the, the risks, the peril, right? And can you be your best self or can you use this as a, as a, as a means of self-discovery, really?

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. I mean, it's, that's been my medium for self-discovery, I think, since I was a young girl. And it's totally evolved as I've grown and matured and as my climbing and my relationship to it has grown and matured. And yeah, for me, I find a lot of value in my exploration of climbing in that process, in particular, the, the process of like dealing with failure. Like rock climbers, we, we basically just fail 99% of the time. And I think a lot of life is kind of recognizing or reckoning with failure and understanding it and really welcoming it in a lot of ways. I mean, I'm basically in an eternal process of failure because I just have projects all over the world

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  that I'm trying to complete and I, I won't complete all of them. And so it's just like, you're constantly failing and learning from it. And I, I think that Understanding that is really beautiful in some ways and it teaches us a lot about ourselves. And then I also think climbing, and this is highlighted in the film, I think really well, and is kind of like not as highlighted in films like Free Solo, is there's a lot of like partnership and there's a lot of team aspects to climbing that I think has been overseen until now. There are these deep connections that you build with those people who you're up there with, who you go through really intense experiences with. And for me, that's been super important in my life.

• 1:36:03Rich Roll?

  There's a team behind every great accomplishment, but like Free Solo is called Free Solo.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:36:09Rich Roll?

  It's like, yeah.

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  And there's a massive team behind that.

• 1:36:12Rich Roll?

  I mean, the movie really is like, it has a lot to say about like mentorship and teamwork. Like it's very clear, like all of the things that you're doing are a consequence of all the support that you surround yourself with. So how do you, like for someone who's watching this or listening to it, like how do you, you know, seek out mentors? How do you surround yourself with that kind of support?

• 1:36:38Speaker 01

  I've been pretty lucky. I think kind of growing up in the world that I got to grow up in, growing up in Boulder and having a lot of like rock climbing mentors and coaches and getting to know Lynn Hill. But I think one of the things that I've done later in life that's been, or later in my climbing career, that's been really pivotal for me is like, I do try to surround myself with people who are quite a bit better than me and more experienced than I am in a lot of things. Like I, my career has been kind of defined by becoming good at a certain style of climbing, deciding I want to switch styles and try something different, becoming a beginner again, kind of sucking at it, finding people who are better than me, who are willing to kind of take me under their

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  wing and teach me, and then building myself back up, which has been, you know, over and over again, pretty humble, humbling experience. And yeah, just so it is hard. I think finding the right partners is one of the challenges of things, the things that we do on expeditions, on big walls. It is hard to find the right combination of person. But I think, yeah, putting yourself out there, being really open to those experiences, also reciprocating, being a good, you know, being a good partner to them. Like I, you know, I'd supported Alex on his. One of his training routes to go free solo, free rider, stuff like that. Trying to like, yeah, really leaning into being a good partner.

• 1:38:05Rich Roll?

  What do these expeditions continue to teach you? Like, what are the lessons that you're learning now that you weren't learning earlier? Like, how has it evolved from that perspective?

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  I mean, I think I keep relearning the same, the same things over and over again.

• 1:38:19Rich Roll?

  We as humans need to be, you know, told these things many times, right?

• 1:38:22Speaker 01

  Beat into you and then you forget and then.

• 1:38:25Rich Roll?

  You have to crack your head on the side of that.

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I, I have, although I do think that I, I've really learned a lot about approaching a goal with a, with a good, healthy mindset. You know, the difference between the way that I approach things when I was 18 years old versus how I approach it now is, is massive. It's just much healthier. It's much more like, there's a lot more like empathy for myself and for my own process. And there's a lot more, um, the goal is different. It's not about like completing, it is about completing the goal, but it's also about like embracing that process and enjoying the, the process along the way.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  And kind of, I guess, understanding that it's, it's never going to be perfect and that I'm never going to have a perfectly sunny attitude the entire time. Negativity is going to come up, self doubt is going to come up, but it's how I relate to those things that matters, not necessarily the fact that they, that they never happen because I'm human and of course they're going to happen, like fear, failure, all of those things are going to constantly be coming up, but it's how I relate to them and move through them that matters in the end.

• 1:39:34Rich Roll?

  What is your perspective on vulnerability? Because like in the movie, you're, you are like, you're, you're demonstrating so much vulnerability and you know, there's that kind of traditional idea or trope like, oh, don't show, you know, don't show anyone what you're, you know, feeling. You've got to like, you know, focus and like on, and just keep it together, right? And, and you're kind of like showing people that there's a different way.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I mean, I just think that. Hiding that stuff and kind of trying to conceal it is so, takes so much energy away from what you're actually trying to do. And I've never been a person who's been able to kind of like bottle things up, I suppose. So I've always just expressed myself in that way. I've always been pretty sensitive. I've always been pretty emotional and I've been able to like, yeah, I've just let out my vulnerabilities when it comes up. And I think I used to be a bit ashamed of it. I used to see it as a bit of a weakness. And now I see that I'm not alone. There's a lot of people like me and there's a lot of people

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  who maybe feel ashamed like I used to. And I think that it is a strength to be able to show it and show it in a space like on a movie and show people that it's actually a pretty healthy thing to care about something and then to feel a certain way about it and move through it.

• 1:40:57Rich Roll?

  You remember that old, you're probably too young, but there was this movie, what was it called? It was a movie about baseball with Tom Hanks and I think Madonna was in it and he was coaching like a women's baseball team. And there's one scene where he's like, there's no crying in baseball.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  Yes, I do remember.

• 1:41:12Rich Roll?

  It was like, here you are crying on El Capitan and you still like did this thing, you know what I mean? It's like, maybe there should be crying in baseball.

• 1:41:20Speaker 01

  I mean, there should be crying in baseball. There should be crying in everyday life.

• 1:41:25Rich Roll?

  To not associate it with weakness. It's just like a cathartic moment of like processing, you know, the, you know, the weight of an experience while you're in the midst of it, I guess.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like, and I think it makes, I think it can make in general, like men feel really uncomfortable to see, you know, a woman crying. And it used to make Adrian feel very uncomfortable and he used to try to fix it and he used to try to solve everything. And now he just like steps back and he's like, okay, I'm just gonna like let you go through the process. But he used to be like, I can't believe you were just like crying while you were climbing. Like while you were actually like executing movements.

• 1:42:08Rich Roll?

  I'm envisioning Alex just watching it like confused.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  Yes, he was. I mean, I think.

• 1:42:13Rich Roll?

  He's like, what is going? I don't understand what's happening.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  He has his lovely wife, Sony, who I think has helped him learn a lot about that type of emotion. And at one point, I remember being on the wall and like I was in tears crying. And he looked at me and he was like, I think you need a hug right now. And he just like gave me a hug and I was like, that was, that was the right, that was the right move.

• 1:42:33Rich Roll?

  That's a demonstration of emotional intelligence. Like, very good. Awesome.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:39Rich Roll?

  How does the whole like business of this work? I mean, Adrian has the, you know, the, the Alpenglow Expedition Company. And so I can kind of understand how that operates. But as a professional climber, like obviously you're a North Face athlete. There's brands and sponsorships involved, like, but are you comfortable talking about like, how do you like make all of these pieces fit so that you can, you know, continue to do this and be a mom? And like pay the bills and everything?

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's just like you said, it like I am my own brand essentially. And I'm managing my own brand with sponsors and producing content, being on, being on podcasts, speaking engagements. There's like a lot of different avenues that I make my income from. And like, yeah, one of them is sponsors, but the sponsors are contingent on like the content I produce. And the trips I go on for them, I go on North Face Expeditions still where we do photo shoots and other marketing things like that. And then, you know, personally, like we have our own YouTube channel where we push things out from social media side, all of that. It's definitely a hustle.

• 1:43:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So not only do you have to be great, like a master of your craft, you also have to be a master storyteller and, and always be thinking about like, how are we presenting, you know, our life in a certain way? Like, that's a whole, that's like a whole second career.

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it is a whole second career and it's something that you don't think about, you know, as a 16 year old, like, oh, I want to be a professional rock climber. I want to be a professional whatever type of athlete. But then, you know, if you're actually successful at it, you really do have to acquire those skills.

• 1:44:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you have to be a production company and a publicity firm and like all of these things that aren't, have nothing to do with being a professional athlete.

• 1:44:34Speaker 01

  And hopefully you get to a certain level where you have a lot of people helping you with that.

• 1:44:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And so there's projects like this documentary where there's, you know, there's other people involved and producers and directors and all kinds of stuff. By the way, I always forget, like when I'm watching these climbing movies that, oh, there's a guy like right next to you with a camera who's also there.

• 1:44:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:44:53Rich Roll?

  You get lost in the story.

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  Be able to get up there and, and is holding camera equipment.

• 1:44:57Rich Roll?

  It's insane. It's insane. The scenes where it starts hailing and it's raining and it's wet up there. I'm like, oh my God, like, how are you doing this?

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, the hail scene, that was actually the, all of that footage is mainly just my iPhone.

• 1:45:12Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:45:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause we were bailing at that point and all the like professional photographers had their cameras like hidden away.

• 1:45:19Rich Roll?

  How did that look on, on an IMAX screen?

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  It was alright.

• 1:45:22Rich Roll?

  It's crazy. You can like shoot it on iPhone, it's on an IMAX screen.

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, it was alright. That was a crazy storm. It was like a very memorable, like kind of funny event that happened. Like, we just totally did not expect the weather to turn like that.

• 1:45:36Rich Roll?

  So you basically have to have all of these threads that you're pulling. Yeah, big documentaries, but also, you know, capturing everything about all of these adventures that you're going on and getting them edited and presented and all of, it's like, it's, that's a lot, you know, that's a lot of mind share when the focus is like, how do I get up this mountain or whatever and do it safely?

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a lot of juggling and especially now with a kid, it's just this other layer added on. And I feel like we do have a lot of help. Like, we actually, I always say it, like, we employ a lot of our friends. Like I have a lot of friends who are photographers and a lot of friends who are editors and I like you spend a lot of time with these people. You go on these trips with these people and so it's like really nice when you have these people that you like and you like to hang out with who are with you. But it's a lot of dynamics. It's a lot of juggling and yeah, it's it's fun.

• 1:46:34Rich Roll?

  How do you make decisions about what the next goal is, what the next expedition is? Like, what are you working towards right now?

• 1:46:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it it's basically about what's for me right now. It's about what's possible time wise, like how much energy I can put into a certain project. For instance, we decided not to go to Yosemite this fall because it's quite a bit easier to to go sport climbing, which is just like, you know, single pitch, you're coming down to the ground every time. It's it's less time commitment. It's easier to train for in a lot of ways because you can just train in the gym a lot and then go outside and have these little projects. And I've found a lot of like fulfillment in that right now. I'm climbing really well in that style and doing these like quicker, like three to four week trips with the whole family, finding a project, kind of

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  working on the project and hopefully like seeing it through and finishing it by the end of the trip. And that's been really amazing and successful this year for me. So that's what we're doing at right now. Also because of the film stuff, it's just kind of hard when you have to travel for the film as well. It's a little easier to have projects that are a little bit more digestible.

• 1:47:50Rich Roll?

  What's the big thing lingering out there that's calling you? Like, is there a big goal out there one day?

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  There's always a lot of goals.

• 1:48:00Rich Roll?

  Unconquered whatever?

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  There's a lot of goals out there. I I think for me, I'd love to go back to LCAP.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  And I'd love to free climb it again, a different route, probably a harder route, probably over multiple days.

• 1:48:14Rich Roll?

  All roads always end up back on that wall, right?

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  It's really hard to not be drawn to it.

• 1:48:18Rich Roll?

  Places in the world.

• 1:48:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's other places I want to go to and climb big walls, like for example, Pakistan. I'd love to go to Pakistan and climb on Nameless Tower.

• 1:48:29Speaker 01

  But I'm still kind of like, it's a lot of risk. Maybe a level of risk I'm not super comfortable with, just with rockfall and things like that. And then just being away for that long period of time. I just don't really, I don't know, I'm not, I don't want to miss things. When your, when your kid is little, they, I mean, I guess maybe forever. They just like change so quickly and I'm not.

• 1:48:51Rich Roll?

  It's crazy.

• 1:48:52Speaker 01

  I don't want to leave for two months. I, I don't want to miss that period of his life.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  So I'd rather take him with me and it's a lot easier to have your kid in Yosemite than Pakistan.

• 1:49:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:49:08Speaker 01

  And it's fun now because in Yosemite, like we, we actually last fall, it was really fun. I was there with the Honolds and I was there with the Caldwell's and I was there with some other friends.

• 1:49:19Rich Roll?

  Are you guys just all pulling up in your respective vans or like, what is this?

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  Built and designed by the same person who like has this niche of designing like family climber vans.

• 1:49:30Rich Roll?

  Looking and checking out everybody's vans and comparing like, oh, you did that and we have this.

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  We all roll up into like Church Bowl, which is this zone in Yosemite and all our kids pile out. And like all the younger, like crusher, dirtbag climbers are just like, what is going on?

• 1:49:46Rich Roll?

  It's so funny, van life.

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  It's awesome. Yeah, we do van life with the kiddo and yeah, it's great. Cause everybody kind of had kids at the same time. So we're all kind of commiserating together.

• 1:49:58Rich Roll?

  What is the investment in all of these young, you know, children all becoming climbers or not?

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think you, you probably know, like I, I just want him to like what he does. I want him to find something. I want him to have a passion of some sort. I would love for it to be climbing. I'd be lying if I said that I didn't.

• 1:50:20Speaker 01

  But it just has to be something. That's my goal is to have a child who's passionate about something.

• 1:50:26Rich Roll?

  Time will tell.

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:27Rich Roll?

  Time will tell.

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So right now we're exposing him to a lot. He goes, he understands climbing, also skiing. Yeah, he's growing up in Tahoe. So.

• 1:50:37Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, you know, there's gonna, there's a, there's a little bit of outdoors to explore there.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:43Rich Roll?

  Do you think about your role as a role model for?

• 1:50:49Rich Roll?

  Young female climbers or outdoor athletes?

• 1:50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I'm really coming into that role, um, probably right now.

• 1:50:56Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, this is the moment for it.

• 1:50:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is the moment. Um, and I really do hope to play a small part in, in that evolution of, of female climbing and be like a really healthy, positive voice. Um, you know, I, I feel like I've had, I've been really fortunate to have a lot of great mentors and I just hope to continue that. I've been working with a, a nonprofit called Z Girls, which is actually about like building confidence in young, young girls, like ages eight or ages 11 to 14. And it's a little, it's an online platform. It's kind of like the mental health coaching you wish you had when you were that age. Cause it's a really like vulnerable, hard time.

• 1:51:39Rich Roll?

  Learning it early.

• 1:51:40Speaker 01

  Learning it early, I think is really important. Um, but yeah, I definitely feel like I'm coming to into that place. The North Face team does a really good job of kind of fostering that in a lot of ways. I feel like I'm now coming into that role for the other younger athletes on the team. So.

• 1:51:55Rich Roll?

  I feel like, like if I think of you and then I pair you with like Kate Courtney and Chelsea Sodaro and these other like, you know, women athletes who are like, you know, sending it in different ways. There's something really powerful about all of you in your various different disciplines, being these, you know, examples of, of, you know, true empowerment.

• 1:52:22Rich Roll?

  I don't know. I don't know if there's something there. I mean, these are all, these are all like people under the, you know, the RXR.

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:52:28Rich Roll?

  Umbrella. And maybe there's, you know, there's a, there's a good reason for that. Um, but I feel like it's a, it's a interesting moment and time right now where you and others like you are, are more fully expressed than they ever have been.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:44Rich Roll?

  And, and because of social media and all of that, like there is a direct communication to the next generation of, of young athletes that are, that are being influenced by you. And, you know, I'm glad that you're like, oh, I'm, I'm really thinking a lot about this because I think shouldering that mantle and taking it seriously can be just so impactful in the most positive way.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you. I mean, I, I do think it's important. I think it is thanks to social media and. Kind of the place that we're at in our lives, like the kind of life transitions that we're going through. I think, yeah, there's a more fuller vision of who we are being portrayed. And I think that in a lot of ways, women didn't have that before. You know, women excelled at athletics when they were in their twenties and then they had kids and then they were parents and that's it.

• 1:53:32Rich Roll?

  So if you were to like, look into that like camera right now and like, address the young girl athlete. You know, what is the, what is the message that you want to convey? Like, what is it that you want them to understand about themselves and their potential? And how they think about, you know, their own future as athletes, but also just as human beings?

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think I would, I would try to convey to not be afraid of fear, to not be afraid to try hard and care about things and be vulnerable and be open. And kind of just go for it in your own way. Don't be afraid to, to do things in your own way, to fail in your own way. It's really not all about success. In a lot of ways, it's, that's, that is what it's about in some respects, but it's also the majority of life is about how we deal with failure and how we deal with discomfort and, and struggle. And I think, you know, as a woman, we do have different ways that we approach things and different thing, different.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  We go through different things and I think that's just now a story that's being told. And it's an important one. And so I think we should never be ashamed to be a part of that.

• 1:54:55Rich Roll?

  I read, and I'm paraphrasing your words, but a few things that, that you've said that I think are really profound and impactful. Fear, fear is human, but a strength when given purpose. So seek out fear, discomfort, and failure because success is built upon, you know, hundreds of thousands of failures. Find what makes them, find what makes you uncomfortable, scares you, or causes you to fail, and then use these experiences for learning and growth.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:27Rich Roll?

  That like says it all to me.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  It does.

• 1:55:28Rich Roll?

  Is there anything that remains to be said about that?

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  No, I, I mean, I just love the idea of leaning into fear and discomfort and expressing ourselves through those and kind of like finding meaning through them.

• 1:55:42Rich Roll?

  I had a woman on here, psychologist called Susan David, and she, her mantra is discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life.

• 1:55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's well said.

• 1:55:54Rich Roll?

  I think that you, you pay the price of discomfort more than most. And you, you're, you're like the, you're our Sherpa who can report back what you discover from the outer edges of the most uncomfortable places on earth.

• 1:56:06Speaker 01

  Well, I appreciate that.

• 1:56:09Rich Roll?

  The movie is fantastic. It's going into theaters September 9?

• 1:56:15Speaker 01

  Third.

• 1:56:16Rich Roll?

  September 3. It'll have a couple of weeks there. After that, it's going to be available for streaming on Jolt.

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:56:26Rich Roll?

  So I think it's jolt.film is where you'll be able to see it. So everybody check it out. And I'm excited to see what you do next.

• 1:56:35Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:56:35Rich Roll?

  Thanks for, thanks for coming here today. It was inspiring.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:56:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's great to get to know you. Appreciate it. Cheers. You feel okay?

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  I feel awesome.

• 1:56:42Rich Roll?

  Did we do it?

• 1:56:43Speaker 01

  We did it.

• 1:56:43Rich Roll?

  All right. Anything remains to be said?

• 1:56:46Speaker 01

  No, I think we nailed it.

• 1:56:47Rich Roll?

  We did. We did it.

• 1:56:48Speaker 01

  You're good at this.

• 1:56:48Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, we'll come back after you go do some crazy thing and we'll talk some more.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  Perfect.

• 1:56:53Rich Roll?

  All right. Cheers.

• 1:56:59Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or a comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors, who keep

• 1:57:43Rich Roll?

  this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shanice Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music was created, all the way back in 2012, by Tyler Pyatt,

• 1:58:24Rich Roll?

  Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support, see you back here soon. Peace. Plants.