Ageless LeBron, Kawhi’s Crazy Career and NFL Draft Burning Questions With Zach Lowe and Peter Schrager

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons talks about going to Game 2 of the playoff series between the Lakers and the Timberwolves (2:29). Then, Bill is joined by Zach Lowe to discuss what-ifs regarding Kawhi Leonard and the Clippers' matchup with the Nuggets (17:56). Finally, Bill talks all things NFL draft with Peter Schrager (01:03:00). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Zack Lowe and Peter Schrager Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Jessie Lopez, and Steve Ceruti Presented by the all-new 2025 Nissan Armada. Learn more at https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/crossovers-suvs/armada/html. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  You're listening to the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by Fanduel. Fanduel has made it easier than ever to see how your bets are doing without even opening the app. Now you can get the latest updates, follow along in real time directly from your phone's lock screen. Yeah. Or Apple Watch, no login required. Just head to your My Bets page to turn it on. If you don't already have it, download the Fanduel Sportsbook app today to get in on the action. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.

• 0:43Bill Simmons?

  Coming up, I'm talking NBA playoffs, I'm talking Kawhi Leonard, I'm talking the NFL Draft. It's all next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from September 14th to September 27th and from November 2nd to November 16th.

• 1:26Bill Simmons?

  Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did Minority Report. It was me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. You can watch this video podcast on Spotify. You can watch it as. A YouTube video on our Ringer Movies YouTube channel. You can see all the clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel, including us going live on Sundays with Brusilo. So subscribe to that channel. You'll get all of our live stuff when we're, when we're doing it. NFL Draft's coming on Thursday. We have the Ringer NFL Draft Guide.

• 2:09Bill Simmons?

  We have Todd McShay's newsletter and his podcast. We have the Ringer NFL Draft Show. We have the, uh, the Ringer NFL Show. Uh, we're covering the draft in all these different ways. I'm going to be talking about it a little bit later with our old friend, Peter Schreger, now at ESPN. Yeah, he's going to be on. Uh, but first, at the very top of the podcast, I went to Lakers, Minnesota tonight, came back, raced back from the game and, uh, can give you my quick takes on what I saw in game two. And then old friend Zach Lowe, now at the Ringer, now at Spotify. We taped something earlier today about Kawhi Leonard because the moment had arrived. Let's have a Kawhi Leonard conversation, then Peter Schrager talk a draft. This is an awesome podcast. Can't wait for you to listen to it. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 3:20Bill Simmons?

  All right. I am taping just the top part of the pod here. It is 10 o'clock at night, almost. Just got home from Lakers, Minnesota, game two, played in Los Angeles, California at the Crypto. It used to be called Staples. I still call it Staples. It's Crypto. A must win game for the Lakers. They did win. It was a weird one. I really wanted to have like some sort of awesome take to play off of or some grand thing to say. And I could do the, uh, the first take thing and just, just list all the guys who need to step up. Nas Reed, Nas Reed, nine points. He's gotta step up. Dante G. Falcinzo, four points. You gotta step up. I'm not gonna do that. I have two takeaways. One slightly negative, one slightly positive.

• 4:05Bill Simmons?

  Other than the Lakers were supposed to win tonight.

• 4:09Bill Simmons?

  They took care of business. Their defense was way, way, way better. Their energy was way, way, way better. And if you look at the box score.

• 4:18Bill Simmons?

  Big minutes. Doncic, 42 minutes. Reeves, 42 minutes. LeBron James, is he 40 yet? 39? Somewhere in that vicinity. 39 minutes. Rui Hachimura, who got hit in the face. He's wearing like a Batman mask. 34 minutes. Finney Smith, 38 minutes. So they basically did a Tibbs on this game.

• 4:42Bill Simmons?

  And the positive comment here is just the LeBron stuff is just incredible. He's 21, 11, and 7.

• 4:51Bill Simmons?

  Big energy plays, big defense. And I'm watching it going. This, this team is in basically the same situation the Warriors are in, where they're gonna have to go small to be truly effective, right? The Warriors have Draymond, who is this undersized center. You can kind of get away with it. And they're always at their best when Draymond's at the five. And they can surround him with shooters and stuff and do that thing. This Lakers team by default is at their best when they're basically playing LeBron and Rui as the quote unquote centers, even though they're not centers. And they're just scrambling and hustling on defense. And they're just trying to protect the rim. They're trying to get away with the physicality that you can get away with when you have LeBron James and Luka Doncic on your team. And just be physical from the gate and just keep scrambling, keep trying, keep trying, keep having energy.

• 5:36Bill Simmons?

  And LeBron was playing so freaking hard. I don't know if it came across the same way on TV, but he was playing like it was like a game seven. When Minnesota was trying to come back there. Near the end. And I was thinking like, there's been so many iterations of him. Over the years, right? Like he comes into Cleveland the first six, seven years and it's like. What is this? He's Magic Johnson. Crossed with.

• 6:01Bill Simmons?

  Dr. J. That's what it seemed like. That's where we were headed. And then it's like, well, wait, he's more of a scorer than we thought. He had that 48-point game against Detroit. It's like, so the 1.0 version was like, what is this? Well, wait, there's some, some Jordan stuff here, too. He's putting up 27, 7 and 7 every game. What is this? Then he has the four MVPs in five years and basically moves into like queen of the chess. I remember writing a column about it, like queen of the chessboard, where he just masters the ability. He's like the Swiss Army knife crossed with the best all-around offensive player in the league. He can score when he needs to. He's setting people up. He's the best athlete in the league and he's just mastered whatever version that is. Then he goes to Cleveland,

• 6:43Bill Simmons?

  puts on more weight. Now he's got this weird post-up power game and that's where he kind of moves through the mid 2010s there where it's like, he's still the Magic, not really Doc anymore hybrid. It's more like a Magic, Karl Malone hybrid with a little Jordan thrown in, not that much, but really Magic in Karl Malone's body, using the physicality. And that peaked in the 2018 season where he's bully balling anybody. And that, that's basically where he's been. He added the three-point shot. So like the 3.50 version of this was that Karl Malone, Magic combo with the three-point shot. I don't know what this version is. And I don't know if he really knows either because they have this incredible offensive player

• 7:27Bill Simmons?

  on their team, Doncic, who 31, 12 and 9 tonight. And all they're doing the whole game is trying to get Gobert to get switched on to Luka. That's it. That's the offensive strategy for the most part. Where's Conley? Can we torture him? Oh, he's not in. Let's go after Gobert. And LeBron's over in the corner watching, you know, for, for key possessions. And it's really weird to watch in person because he still looks like LeBron. He's, he's still as athletic as, you know, as he was in his post-prime. He can still create his own shot. He still was doing all the same, you know, looking for teammates, all that stuff. And then there's times he just seems marginalized. You kind of forget he's out there for a couple

• 8:11Bill Simmons?

  possessions and he's figured out always how to be involved in the game, even if he's not involved in the play and he's always moving. He's always hustling. He's using his brain and it was really cool to watch. I was really impressed. So for them, he's kind of a little dream on D on defense, I guess. Better, better rebounder. He had, how many rebounds he had tonight? 11. Trying to protect the rim every once in a while and then just keeping energy, attacking, trying to get offensive rebounds and picking his spots. And when they need him, you know, he missed, missed a few wide open shots today, which was uncharacteristic for him. But I thought it was really cool to watch and whatever balance they found tonight is just how they're gonna have to play. And I don't know if it's sustainable, but when you

• 8:56Bill Simmons?

  think about it, I said this before, to win three rounds in the playoffs, you have to go 12 and 9. So can this team be slightly above 500 for three rounds? Like, maybe. I, I personally don't think either of these teams are gonna win three rounds. I think the, it's gonna be OKC Clippers. Whoever wins that series will be in the finals. I still, I thought that before the playoffs. I think that now, but when you think of what they did tonight on FanDuel, that's moved down to minus 112, the Lakers. Minnesota was, I think they were minus 180 after they won game one. So this series is just swinging back and forth and I picked Lakers in seven before the series. I will say this, and this

• 9:38Bill Simmons?

  leads to my second point, because I want to talk about Edwards for a second. Minnesota has to win this in six. I don't, I know, like I said on Sunday's pod, this team doesn't care where they play. They're not afraid of anybody and I certainly didn't think they seemed afraid tonight. The Lakers just had more energy than they did. But this can be a tough place to play a game seven because of how good of a, how smart of a player Luca is offensively, combined with how smart LeBron is and just the way they can pick their spots, how the energy of the crowd can kind of keep sustaining them and how JJ now realizes, I can't play Jackson Hayes anymore. I basically have six guys, six and a half backs. I just

• 10:18Bill Simmons?

  think it's gonna be a hard place to win with, when they can always just default to, all right, Luca, where's Gobert? Let's do that again. And I think Minnesota, you know, they have three and four at home.

• 10:33Bill Simmons?

  The longer the series goes, the Lakers are probably just thinking, can we just somehow get this to seven? If we're just gonna trade wins, whatever, if we have that seven at home, we're gonna have so many advantages. They're so hard to officiate to, you know, the way that everybody's bouncing off everybody. So I still feel like this is seven, and if you're telling me these two teams are playing in a game seven from what I watched tonight, I would still slightly tilt toward the Lakers. But, you know, would I be surprised if Minnesota wins? No. So the first take is Lakers did their job today because there was another scenario in this game where they go down 0-2 and it just feels like everything's gonna self combust. But that did not happen. Second piece.

• 11:16Bill Simmons?

  Edwards had a weird game, and you know, he's young. He's 23, 24, I can't remember, and you know, he had nine assists in the first game and played with the energy and pizzazz. I think he was hurt, like his shoulder was bugging him, basically didn't do anything, wouldn't shoot in the first quarter as the Lakers are taking a big lead and ends the game. He has, I'm gonna say zero assists. Yeah. 25.0 assists. Ends up taking 22 shots, but didn't really shoot in the first quarter. This is the last level for him and he's not close yet. He might be two years away from me yet, and we saw him do it for a stretch last year

• 11:59Bill Simmons?

  in those first two rounds where he put together, I think it was seven, eight games where there was just a real mastery of the moment, the game, the other team, how to set up everybody, just how to impact the game for four quarters. He did not have that tonight. I'm not surprised because I think, as I've said before, 26, 27 is when I really think a guy turns into who they're gonna be, and right now he is 23 years old. He turns 24 on August 5th. This is what they need from him if they're gonna win three straight rounds because the conference is just better this year, just this. So you win this series, now you're playing Golden State probably next round, I would

• 12:42Bill Simmons?

  guess, maybe Houston if Houston crawls back, but probably Golden State. And then after that, you're playing the winner of OKC, and I assume the Clippers.

• 12:51Bill Simmons?

  There's a, there's a sense of the moment slash mastery for him that went a little sideways in the Dallas series in the conference finals last year and same thing this time where the guy that he's gonna be, that he's not yet, you kind of feel it in games like tonight. He just seemed young to me tonight. He seemed like a, like a young, awesome player that just seemed good that they won game one and didn't, didn't seem desperate in the right way. Right? And that's fine. That's, that's where you, you won the game, you're going back to Minnesota, you win three and, and you're done. And you get to the next round. But I think what he'll learn in situations like this, like when you're talking like

• 13:34Bill Simmons?

  27-year-old Ant, the thing that he's gonna learn that I don't think he really fully realizes yet is like, this is a, you know, go for the jugular game. This is like, we, if we go up 0-2, they're not gonna come back. We're three games in Minnesota. And he just didn't have that tonight. And again, I don't know how hurt he is, but it was a weird one from him. Minnesota also couldn't make a three. Part of that had to do with how, how, how the Lakers were scrambled around, but Minnesota finished five for 25 after they went like 30 for 40 in game one, I think. But it was a game that Ant just couldn't match the intensity of the other team. Randall was ironically really good. He had 27. Physically, I noticed, especially in person, watching the bodies bang, because you always get a

• 14:19Bill Simmons?

  better sense of it in person. He, he bangs with LeBron, he bangs with Luca, like he's as big and as strong as Rui. He's as big and as strong as anyone in the Lakers, and it actually seems like a really good matchup. The problem for Minnesota is the Conley piece. Conley, zero points today, 0 for 5, had some wide open shots and just looked old. And they didn't really know what to do. Steve Frenchette got in foul trouble right away, but I'm still not positive who the best five guys are as a unit on this Minnesota team. And I think, not positive they know either. So I don't know what's gonna happen in this series. It's really gonna depend on two things. Can the Lakers get away with

• 15:01Bill Simmons?

  playing those four guys as many minutes as they played them tonight? Because I think they're gonna have to to win four games. That's one. And then the second is...

• 15:11Bill Simmons?

  Does Ant have an end him to be the best player in this series? Because I don't see another scenario that that they win three more games unless he can rise up a level. He had that incredible dunk in the third quarter. That was breathtaking. But this feels like it's an Ant versus Luca series. That was my takeaway tonight. I think LeBron is going to do what he did tonight and he's going to, you know, he, he's a fixed cost in this series. I know what I'm getting from him for the most part. The threes are going to come and go, but for the most part, we're going to get the energy and the creativity like we had tonight. Luca is the wild card because he might have, you know, he might have 45 points in game three and then Ant on the other end, what can he create?

• 15:55Bill Simmons?

  And how much can they survive this weird go bear thing? He was really bad today. He was six and six, some butterfinger moments and they just kept attacking him and attacking him, attacking him. And ultimately, who's their best five? So this is why we love seven game series. This is going to keep moving and keep changing. But when I think back to this game during the summer, I'm going to think of just how fucking hard LeBron played. I really respect it. Guys, you know, it's, it's like the, like the Brady thing, you know, and Brady was at the tail end of his career and you, he just, the competitiveness almost went up because there's legacy stuff and you're comparing your career to like the best players ever. And there's some sort of drive that has to kick in to keep the

• 16:40Bill Simmons?

  process going. And what we saw from LeBron tonight was really, I know the box score was pretty pedestrian, but man, he really gives a shit. I really respect it. We're going to take a break and we're going to come back and Zach Lowe and I are going to talk about Kawhi Leonard. The NBA playoffs in full swing. There's no better way to be part of the action with FanDuel, America's number one sports book. If you think you know how it's going to go down on a Wednesday, make those predictions pay off with FanDuel and their hump day parlay profit boost. For instance,

• 17:14Bill Simmons?

  You take, I think the Rockets are going to win game two. Maybe I'll be wrong, but I like the under with the Rockets to win the first half in the game. And you could parlay that together and that's plus 268. And you can do the parlay specials, whatever you want. It's your shot at a bigger payout at no extra cost. Don't be a spectator this postseason. It's only round one. Get a lot of time left. Head to fanduel.com/BS to download America's number one sportsbook and make every moment more. Must be 21 plus present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC. Opt in required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration and max wager amount. See

• 17:56Bill Simmons?

  terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Nissan. If you're planning on an adventurous 2025, you're going to need a car that can keep up with you and conquer anything in your path. The Nissan Armada Pro 4X is that car with a twin turbo V6 engine ready to propel your adventures up to 8,500 pounds of towing capacity to haul all your favorite toys and space for eight passengers. This unshakable fortress will chew up and spit out anything you throw at it. Learn more at the all new 2025 Nissan Armada at NissanUSA.com. Towing

• 18:39Bill Simmons?

  capacity varies by configuration. See Nissan Towing Guide and Owner's Manual for additional information. Always secure cargo. All right. Taping this part of the podcast with Zach Load is 12:20 afternoon ET. So we don't know anything that happened in the Tuesday night games. We're going to look backward, but look big picture. I want to talk Clippers Nuggets with you and I want to talk about Kawhi Leonard with you. Clippers Nuggets is everything we want from a round one playoff series. Who do you think is going to win this series, by the way, now that you've seen two games?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  So I picked Nuggets in seven, which is your tell for don't feel great about it, went home court advantage and best player in the world. And I listened to you and Ryan after game one, I felt exactly the same way you guys did that the Nuggets kind of stole that game and I would feel really good about the series if I were a Clippers fan and then they won game two. Obviously we're doing this right after that. I would feel good if I were a Clippers fan. I'm going to stand by my pick, obviously, because you know, I don't repick, repick series halfway through, but I think Clippers have outplayed them. And if they're gonna have, we're gonna talk about Kawhi and if they're gonna have one guy in each game and it was Harden in game one, Kawhi in game two, who's essentially like on par with Jokic, they're gonna win the series.

• 19:56Bill Simmons?

  Right. They just need somebody to cancel him out numbers wise in some way.

• 20:03Bill Simmons?

  They got out rebounded by 18 last night and won.

• 20:08Bill Simmons?

  They got, they survived a really great Michael Porter performance compared to his complete no show in game one, and that didn't matter. But the Kawhi piece was the piece and it got me thinking like, you and I have known each other for basically Kawhi's entire career. I think we first met each other, at least like on email or wherever in 2011, which was here he was drafted. Although one of the best pieces you ever wrote for Grantland was the Kawhi George Hill trade piece, which was, I think, I just remember when you wrote it, I was like, this is, I feel like this is where basketball writing is heading. Like, it's not just like, who, you know, this is like some sort

• 20:50Bill Simmons?

  of, it was sourced, why did they do this? Where's this going? It was a sliding doors moment.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  I couldn't believe, I still can't believe they, like, multiple front office people talked to me on the record for that piece about like, what was going on during the draft? What were they thinking? I'm like, well, maybe that's why. Maybe it was like a newish piece and they were like, oh, this will be fun. Let's do this interview and reveal like what was going on for this crazy trade.

• 21:12Bill Simmons?

  That would happen anymore, right?

• 21:13Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 21:14Bill Simmons?

  I don't think anyone's doing that again. For some reason in the early 2010s, people were like, here's some information. Take it wherever.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Worked out well for me.

• 21:24Bill Simmons?

  So then Kawhi, he has a couple of different arcs. There's never been a career like this. And I said to you, just come on my podcast. We're not going to do an hour and a half. Let's talk about Kawhi Leonard because I can't remember really anything like this. I think it's the second biggest what if career of all time. I'm going to start there. I think Bill Walton is still number

• 21:46Bill Simmons?

  I think Kawhi's second, where it's been a great career. He's making the Hall of Fame. Anyway, he was NBA top 75, but there's this extra gear and it came down to bad luck and injuries, which happens so much in the NBA. But you see stuff like last night and you go back and you look through some of the history and you're like, could this guy have been like one of the 15 best players of all time?

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Oh, there's, there's no, did he make top 75? I think he did, right?

• 22:12Bill Simmons?

  He did.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  So there's no question he would be one of the top, he might already be one of the top 50 players of all time. He's a two-time finals MVP. He's kind of like the

• 22:19Bill Simmons?

  No, I said 15.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Oh, 15?

• 22:22Bill Simmons?

  I'm talking like, oh, I'm talking high levels.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  So now you're talking like

• 22:28Bill Simmons?

  He's in the Durant, Barkley, Giannis, maybe heading toward where that Shaq, Moses, Hakeem level, like how high could it have gone? I don't know. I just don't know.

• 22:40Bill Simmons?

  Now, health is a huge part of this. Durability is a huge part of this and the, and the best guys ever have always managed to stay on the court has been one of the things and he wasn't able to do that, which is why it's a what if. But his best was up there with everybody from this century.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  No question. Two-time finals MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, 50, 40, 85 in the playoffs.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  And we'll talk, we, I have, I did a little dig. I got, I did some basketball reference sorting. I got some good stuff.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  All-time two-way wing, most valuable position in the league, has multiple iconic playoff series, playoff moments, and one of the most iconic playoff shots in the history of basketball, the four bouncer in, in Toronto against the Sixers. And like, again, you never know, like, with these guys, like all the time he's missed, if he had played all that time, what, if he, it's, if he had played twice as many minutes or 1.5 times as many minutes, how does he look right now? Cause right now he looks incredible and fresh and all that stuff. But yeah, I mean, look, he hasn't finished the season healthy since 2020, since the bubble. He has not finished his team's

• 23:58Speaker 01

  season available to play since the Clippers flamed out in the bubble. And knock on wood, we're only two games into this and he's playing a ton of minutes and he played a ton of minutes at the end of the season. If he plays like this, like I, I think we just, did you just give up on this? Like I just kinda get, like when they lost Paul George in free agency, I was just kinda like, he's gonna miss half the season. It's gonna be all dependent. I just didn't see the Clippers ever reaching this level again in this iteration of them, in part because I just kinda gave up on this. It just seemed like a pipe dream that we'd ever see this level Kawhi in the playoffs every game. And I, I really, you know how much I love Kawhi? I voted him MVP

• 24:38Speaker 01

  in the year Russ won the MVP when it was a super controversial vote. I think I was one of eight guys to vote for him. I thought he was the best player in the league that year. And I just hope we get to see this because what he did, what he's doing and just eviscerating every defender that they threw at him last night. 15 of 19 for 39 points is ridiculous. And, and the last basket of the game, or yeah, it was to put them up by three.

• 25:00Bill Simmons?

  Hard, hard shots too.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  And a steal right after that.

• 25:03Bill Simmons?

  Contested shots, right. It, it just, what we saw last night in game two, which is why I want to do this segment, because I don't feel like it's possible to overreact to it. What he did last night was as good as I think I've ever seen him play. And this is a guy who's had some amazing, amazing moments. But yeah, I mean, if you go through it, there's so many what ifs with him.

• 25:27Bill Simmons?

  Where you start with like, what if, what if the 2017 playoffs when he gets hurt, right? I don't think they would have beaten Golden State. I think that's one of the three or four best teams of our lifetime.

• 25:39Bill Simmons?

  But it would have been a good series.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  And we saw enough in the two and a half quarters of that game to be like, okay, like he's gonna give them a puncher's chance in all these games. Like they'll probably lose 4-2 or 4-1, but this is gonna, this isn't gonna be like a walkover, like everything else they had that year.

• 25:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's gonna be throwing punches. What if he signs off on the 2018 Boston trade? Is a really good what if? When Boston was trying to come after him?

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Take me, take me, that's, that's your, that's your world.

• 26:07Bill Simmons?

  Well, that at least would have been Jaylen Brown and some other stuff. And, you know, I, I think Boston was really hesitant to actually. Consider talking about it because he was making it so clear. This is a one year thing.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  I'm going to LA.

• 26:21Bill Simmons?

  And wink, wink, I'm, I'm going to a different city after when Toronto didn't care. There's the what if Kawhi just resigns with Toronto in 2019 because they had a pretty good nucleus. You know, and you think like the league was a little bit weird there in 20 and 21, 22, could they have gotten back?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  They won 50 something games the next year. They were one of the best story. I think, did Nick Nurse win coach of the year that year?

• 26:42Bill Simmons?

  I think after, yeah.

• 26:45Bill Simmons?

  There's the what if Kawhi signs with LeBron and the Lakers in 2019, which is what we thought was going to happen.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Woo.

• 26:51Bill Simmons?

  And I don't even know, can they get Anthony Davis at that point? Probably, I don't know if they could, maybe they could have fit all these. I can't remember the details of it, but maybe if you get Kawhi, you don't need Anthony Davis and you're using those picks for other things. You're building around those two guys. Those two guys make sense together. What if, what if he starts getting hurt within a couple of months after that trade? And now LeBron has no running mate and that just goes.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  It's ridiculous to even suggest this, Bill. Nothing like that ever falls into the Lakers laps. It doesn't happen. They don't just get stars that go to their team like shockingly. It doesn't happen.

• 27:24Bill Simmons?

  What if COVID doesn't happen is a really good what if for really a bunch of different people in 2020, but especially when you think about where the league was at that moment. Milwaukee was kicking everybody's ass. The Lakers and Clippers were the two best teams in the West and it felt like there were three teams and then everyone else. And we were headed toward this LA versus LA. Then the COVID, the bubble, things get weird, whatever. And then, you know, the last one is what if he stays healthy in 2021 when he gets hurt? And then Paul George elevates, but I, I forgot this. He played 11 playoff games that year in 2011 and he averaged 30 a game in the playoff games.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Seven against, seven against Dallas and, and four against Utah.

• 28:02Bill Simmons?

  Four against Utah and then kind of left. I went to the game where he kind of left near the end of the game. It's like, uh oh, that's not great.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Well, can we, can we, can we just stop for a second? Like, yeah, we, we shouldn't, we shouldn't slow down on it. We should, we should slow down at a couple of things.

• 28:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  The first one is the bubble and COVID because I picked the Clippers to win the championship that year and we learned pretty quickly even during the bubble and then after that no team wanted to be there less than the Clippers and they just completely I don't know that I've ever seen a team let go of the rope like that like dated against Denver.

• 28:37Bill Simmons?

  Like they wanted to leave over trying to try to win the title seemed to be a feeling that was pretty pervasive.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  And 2021, he gets hurt against Utah. The series is 2-2 when he gets hurt and they end up winning the series. The end, essentially the end of the jazz of the Mitchell Gobert, you know, iteration. They had one more year after that, but everyone knew it was kind of over. We just like I, that 45-point game six to save the Clippers season and remember that series against Dallas? They get rolled the first two games in LA. They're down like a million points in game three in Dallas and it just feels like it's over. They saved the season. They're still down 3-2 in game six and he plays one of the best games I've ever seen anyone play. 18 of 25, 13 of 16 at the line, 45 points and the usual defense

• 29:27Speaker 01

  and single-handedly wins the game and saves their season. Then he follows it up with like a whole hum 28, 10 and nine in game seven.

• 29:33Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Just that's one of the best games that's up there with any game I've ever seen anybody play. I just wanted to say that. Just slow down and say that game.

• 29:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then you think from a Clippers standpoint, the most tortured NBA franchise we have in 21 is just wide open. You look back at that season, it's like Bucks team that I'm not even sure was the best Bucks team. The Suns make it, right? And I think there's a bunch of teams that are like, oh, we could have beaten that if this had happened or this had happened or this had happened. And that ends up being our finals and the Bucks wins. But Bucks win, but I think the 22 Bucks team. You could make a case if Middleton's healthy that year, that probably they're probably a better team than the 21 team. So anyway, a whole bunch of what ifs. From the what if career standpoint, Walton's still number one for me because he just wins multiple titles in the late 70s and goes

• 30:24Bill Simmons?

  down as one of the best 15 guys ever. He Kawhi is second, and then my other two for my lifetime were Andrew Tony, who really only played five years and then his feet went on him. But I just think would have been a Hall of Fame two guard and probably the second best two guard in the league behind Jordan. And then Bernard King was the other one, the 28, he was 28 years old when he blew out his knee. He was averaging 33 a game that year, which in 19 mid 80s standards is like 40. And came back, but was never really the same, but was the, you know, he was the forward scoring Michael Jordan of that era. And then the only other one I have is Yao.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  I'm glad you brought up Yao because I want to bring him up later.

• 31:03Bill Simmons?

  Where it's like, ah, man, we kind of forget that Yao only played like eight years.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Ralph Sampson?

• 31:10Bill Simmons?

  Sampson's a good one. I don't, I'm not sure he knew where, yeah, he got hurt, but I'm not, I've always felt like he spent four years in college. And then it's like, am I a center? Why am I on the perimeter this much? I'm never sure he totally figured that out from like a ceiling standpoint. Yao could have been 23 and 10 for like 15 years, but I think the China national team murdered him. And then there's some other ones. There's like the T Mac and C Webb, but those are guys like they had good careers and they got hurt a little bit later. But I think those are my five. Anybody else you have?

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Well, there are some, it depends how, how, what if you want to, I mean, Len Bias.

• 31:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  So I'm glad you brought up Yao because I just did, I just did to, to point to your point about how unique Kawhi's career is. I just did a search on basketball reference. People in the Hall of Fame. With player efficiency ratings for their career, P E R, everyone craps on it now. It's like a useful, like if I just need to catch all, like, was this guy good? How was he? Right?

• 32:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  P E R above 22 for their career. Kawhi's regular season is 23.2, I think. And because I wanted to see how many guys Hall of Fame that elite level and how many played fewer than Kawhi minutes wise. I think Kawhi's about 23,000 career regular season minutes. There's only, there's only three guys in the Hall of Fame that meet that P E R standard and played fewer minutes than Kawhi. One is George Mikan. Okay. Like original NBA, you know, dinosaur, but innovator, ABA commissioner, all that. One is Neil Johnston, 50s Philadelphia Warriors, player, probably made your book of basketball.

• 32:50Bill Simmons?

  Bill Russell kind of took him out.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  And the third is Yao Ming. And so that was a name that I thought of right away when I, and even before I did that search, he only played 15,818 career minutes, but obviously unlike Yao, Kawhi's a multi-time champion, multi-time finals MVP. There's just, there's, and then you go right, and then there's a, Neil Johnston played 18,300 minutes, and then there's a 10,000 minute jump to the next guy on this list, and it's Dr. J, who obviously played in the ABA too. So he's got other men. Like there's just, there's a 10,000 minute gap between those two guys and Kawhi's right in the middle of it.

• 33:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then you think there's only three guys who ever won finals MVP for two teams and the other two are LeBron and Kareem. I have my 42 club that I still stand by as one of the dumbest, but accurate.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Is the wait, is that the one that cuts off Karl Malone?

• 33:40Bill Simmons?

  Or yeah, I got to 42 because it was the best way to cut off as many Karl Malone seasons as possible. Points, rebounds and assists.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Poor, poor, well, not poor guy.

• 33:50Bill Simmons?

  Sorry, Carl.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  No, don't be sorry.

• 33:52Bill Simmons?

  If you go 42 club who made the finals.

• 33:57Bill Simmons?

  Since Michael Jordan, Shaq has three, LeBron has six. Kobe once in oh one, Iverson once in oh one, didn't win the title. Duncan in oh three, forty five point four. Kawhi in nineteen, forty five point four. Giannis in twenty one, forty eight point one. Jokic in twenty three, fifty three point five, and Luka last year, forty seven point oh. Gives you a sense of, first of all, how great that nineteen season was, but then also like, that's where we are. And the only outlier in all of that is probably Iverson, who just, he took a ton of shots, but wasn't like, a points, rebounds, assists, like how some of these other ones. Even Kobe only made it once.

• 34:42Bill Simmons?

  And then the other thing with Kawhi.

• 34:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, how many guys have gone from incredible glue guy to awesome A-plus was scorer? I was trying to think like SGA. Kawhi was a better glue guy than SGA. But where you thought their career was going to be one thing? And then it became something completely different.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  It's a great question.

• 35:09Bill Simmons?

  How many guys can you think of? Who were like, wow, I, I just didn't see this because we, we were working together and we were going to those finals games. I never thought Kawhi would be a guy who averaged thirty a game in the playoffs. That was inconceivable.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Well, I remember after the first Spurs Heat final that the Spurs lose the Ray Allen game and all that.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  He had moments in that series, I don't have his game log up in front of me now, but he had moments in that series where it was like, ooh, something, something's interesting is happening with this Kawhi. Like he's, he's guarding LeBron like that. Okay, fine. Like he's a great defensive player. Actually, let me bring up his game log as I'm talking, but he's guarding LeBron.

• 35:49Bill Simmons?

  He's guarding LeBron comfortably, by the way.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And LeBron respects him already. And now he has games. I'm looking at here, the, here's his last three games of the, of those twenty thirteen.

• 35:59Bill Simmons?

  Thirteen or fourteen?

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Thirteen, the one they lose to Miami. Sixteen points on six of eight shooting, twenty two. Points and 11 rebounds on nine to 14 shooting game seven 19 misses a big free throw in game six. Obviously people remember that 19 and 16 on eight of 17 in game seven 45 minutes 46 minutes. The game before he has double digit rebounds in five of the seven games. And I remember before the next season, I wrote a piece about this because this for Grantland. This guy is the biggest X factor in the league this year, and I was like, the only time I think I ever got a one on one interview with Kawhi. I called the Spurs. I was like, hey, I'm writing all about this kid that he was a kid back then, whatever.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  And I remember their PR guy, Tom James was like, this will, this, this will be your one for the year. Like, don't, don't call and ask for pop. He was being polite about it, but like, you know, the Spurs. I was like, you're not getting popped like this will be the one, but like, I think it's a good idea. You should do it. And then he ends up winning finals MVP and making me look really, really smart. But you could see enough in that first finals or was like, okay, something different is going on, something more is here. But again, to be an MVP candidate and a guy who have, you know, we'll go through his playoff numbers. But even then, even in the 2014 finals, I don't think you could see that coming. He was kind of like MVP by, you had to pick a spur and he was, you know,

• 37:22Bill Simmons?

  It was such a team win and he did, you know, LeBron's numbers are actually pretty good. When you look back at that series, but he did a good job of at least going toe to toe with LeBron, which is why I think he won. And his stats are good. He was in an interesting spot there. The first couple of years where we were working together, where he was the go to guy. If you were talking about, you know, I really love, and he was the guy like, who's that now in 2025 or the, you know, I really love.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  It would have been like,

• 37:50Bill Simmons?

  It's like a Jalen Johnson, like those guys, but on a better team, but those kind of,

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Evan Mobley or Cade Cunningham before this year.

• 37:56Bill Simmons?

  Right, right.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Maybe not even quite, quite that.

• 38:00Bill Simmons?

  But he didn't have the pedigree of those guys, right? But it was one of those things coming out of the gate where they were like, yeah, there's something here with this guy. But I always thought his, I thought he was going to be Pippin.

• 38:11Bill Simmons?

  And Pippen was a better like kind of passer creator than him. He had the ball more than Kawhi did, but to me, the best still to this day, the best three perimeter players I've ever seen in person. And maybe, maybe Amen Thompson can get here.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 38:27Bill Simmons?

  Maybe. I don't know. What is he 22? But the best I've ever seen in person, Pippen, one, Kawhi, and Rodman. If I'm just talking about.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Athleticism.

• 38:37Bill Simmons?

  I need a long athletic perimeter to shut down this score. Who am I picking? Those are the three guys. And then after that, we can argue, but those three guys have to be on the list. Is there anybody else you would add?

• 38:50Speaker 01

  For defense, I'd, I'd have to sit and think about it for a second. But I mean, you know, Gary Payton wasn't big enough to be in this conversation, right? Like is it?

• 38:59Bill Simmons?

  You're talking about guys who could guard everybody from LeBron James to Tony Parker. Like you just, anybody basically from 6'1" to 6'10" they can handle. And also maybe even like you could throw Kawhi at Jokic at this point and it's not like crazy.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  I'll give you this one too. Um, like I'm gonna, I sound like an old man. It's not that long ago, but like he's still a very good defender now. Like if he were healthy and played the whole year, he'd be in the all defense conversation.

• 39:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  That's he's still that good. Peak Kawhi, like 2016 to 18, 19 Defensive Player of the Year candidate Kawhi.

• 39:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Was legitimately terrifying. And to the point that he would turn entire games, entire games by himself, like steal dunk, block dunk, steal three pointer and be like, what just happened? Did that one guy just go on a 90 run? And I remember the most underrated playoff series, I think maybe anyone has ever played is that year.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Kawhi against Memphis in 2017 in the first round like a like a ho hum Memphis team the Spurs should have won that series.

• 40:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  He was like incredible in that series and did everything for that team and and just like people can go back and look it up, but I like, remember the Ben McLemore thing? I think he ruined Ben McLemore's career because Ben McLemore tried to dribble within like a 10 foot radius of Kawhi and Kawhi just took the ball out of his hands, two possessions in a row and went and dunked on the other. And I wanted to write a story about that. I approached Ben McLemore's people once and I was like, can I write this story? And they're like, I don't think he wants to talk about that.

• 40:38Bill Simmons?

  So there's still not ready.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  But he ended up, I ended up writing something different about him. He had quite, he was a very sweet guy and had an interesting arc to his career, but like peak Kawhi, if you were not like an A level dribbler, you could not dribble anywhere near him, he would just take the ball from you.

• 40:55Bill Simmons?

  Well, I remember one of my last pieces I wrote for Grantland, we did this art drawing because I was talking, we were talking about how Kawhi was like an octopus. He, he hit this level the second half of that 2015 season, coming off the finals MVP. And that second half of the season where there was a lot of storylines going, right? Like Curry, the Warriors are winning 67 games, Curry's about to win an MVP. Blake has become one of the best five guys in the league. LeBron's in his first Cleveland season, Harden is starting to really kick ass on Houston. And it felt like this sea change of like this new generation of guys taking over, kind of taking the steering wheel of the league. And then Kawhi was in there just wrecking everybody.

• 41:38Bill Simmons?

  And I remember we did this octopus drawing of him and it's, you can find it probably in the, one of the last Grand, but Kawhi's face on this octopus, because he would just kind of be on the court, he'd be like, I'm just going to take the ball. And he would just go over and like grab the ball, but.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  You could see the moment when he would decide, actually, I think I can just get the ball. Like you're dribbling it like everything's normal. I'm just, how about I just take it?

• 42:01Bill Simmons?

  I'm just going to grab it. So that stretch he had on the Spurs, basically from the second half of 15, 16, 17, leading to him stepping on Zaza's foot.

• 42:13Bill Simmons?

  He was as good as any and we have Durant humming on OKC at that point. We have kind of the last stages of Carmelo. We have LeBron on Cleveland. We have a lot of good forwards and it's just this amazing forward stretch. I have him. I was thinking most talented small forwards in my lifetime. Just talented. I'm not going best career into that stuff and LeBron's one and Bird's two.

• 42:37Bill Simmons?

  And then Kawhi versus Durant, if you're just talking apex. It's a pretty good, it's a pretty good argument. I don't, that's almost a three A, three B thing. And I don't, Durant's had a better career because he was more durable. I don't know the answer.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  It's, it's actually kind of amazing and speaks to how great he was during, you know, that five or six year stretch.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  That he's a six time All-Star because it doesn't feel like he's been healthy enough to, in his prime to be a six time All-Star. It's just when he's minimally healthy. It's so obvious that he's one of the five to eight best players in the league that he just makes the All-Star team. Every year, the Durant one is interesting. Durant's got the height and the, the quick twitch shooting from any, any range ability. This, the bulk and defense and just you can't move him at all that Kawhi brings. Both of them are, their assist numbers, Durant's probably a little higher, but broadly similar in that they're not a primary creator. They're more a secondary creator. It's, I mean,

• 43:37Bill Simmons?

  Right, they're in the four assist range.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  It's an interesting, it's an interesting one.

• 43:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, one other thing with both of them, there was a little bit of a Swiss Army knife with each where I felt like you could play Kawhi at either forward spot and get away with it. Right? You could play Durant. I mean, you weren't, it's not awesome to play him at small forward, but you could do it. But really you could, he has the ability to either go, you go stretch five with him and just go smaller or you can play him with a center.

• 44:04Bill Simmons?

  It was, it was just a more flexibility in a lineup than maybe LeBron had up until later in his career. Where LeBron was like, he needed certain things around him. Those guys you could kind of mold, if you, whatever your roster is, you could kind of mold them a little bit. But I, I really think those are the four best,

• 44:22Bill Simmons?

  quote unquote, small forwards I've seen in my lifetime.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Can I, these are, these are great names. Can I just do it, read you another list of things I got from basketball reference?

• 44:31Bill Simmons?

  Do it. I'm ready.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Uh, I just did.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Playoffs, these are playoff numbers. Again, PR is not a perfect stat. Good catchall. Kawhi's career playoff PR is 24.3. It's higher than his regular season.

• 44:44Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  That, that alone is an accomplishment, by the way.

• 44:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, for a perimeter guy, that's really high.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  If you can maintain your efficiency stat, if you're an elite player and you can just maintain your regular season efficiency into the better competition of the playoffs, that alone is an accomplishment. To go up a mini level is a big, big deal. So I did above 24 PR at least 4,000 minutes in the playoffs. Kawhi's at 5,009, I think. So you gotta have been there a decent amount of time and you maintain a 24 efficiency, 24 PR. Eight guys total have ever done it. And I'll go in order of their player efficiency ratings. Number one, Michael Jordan, 28.6. Number two, LeBron James, 27.9. Number three, Shaq, 26.1. Number four,

• 45:33Speaker 01

  I still think for my money, maybe the most criminally underrated player in the history of the NBA, Hakeem Olajuwon, 25.7.

• 45:39Bill Simmons?

  Not by me, not in this house.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Number five is a tie at 24.3, and it's just too good that it's a tie. Tim Duncan and Kawhi.

• 45:49Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  And then right below them at 24-2 is Barkley, who has the fewest playoff minutes of this group. And right below Barkley is Durant at 24 flat. And that's it. That's the whole list.

• 46:01Bill Simmons?

  The legend's not in there?

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Uh, I'll look up his playoff PR. I mean, I know, I, I should have, I should have anticipated.

• 46:09Bill Simmons?

  Nah, it's fine. He, the last couple of years were a little rocky. He's wearing the back brace.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Career PR in the playoffs.

• 46:17Bill Simmons?

  Probably like 23?

• 46:19Speaker 01

  21.4.

• 46:20Bill Simmons?

  Ah, the legend. Tough.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  But he's got 20, he's got a 26, a 24. I mean, it's, it's different.

• 46:24Bill Simmons?

  PR is, yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's a.

• 46:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, I have my own basketball reference list.

• 46:31Bill Simmons?

  You had to play at least 20 games in a playoff season.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 46:35Bill Simmons?

  You had scored at least 30 points.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Per game.

• 46:39Bill Simmons?

  Per game. You had to get at least six rebounds. Here's that list.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Sorry, so 30, hold on, let me 30.

• 46:45Bill Simmons?

  30 and six and at least 20 games.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Playoff game, so it's.

• 46:48Bill Simmons?

  20 plus games.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  You're making the finals.

• 46:50Bill Simmons?

  You're making the finals.

• 46:53Bill Simmons?

  Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq, Kawhi, LeBron again, Giannis, LeBron a third time, Jokic. That's our list.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  I mean, it lends cred- I mean, when you said top 15 earlier in the podcast, I, I mean, again, you're getting into sacred territory there in my initial.

• 47:18Bill Simmons?

  You're at least near Durant.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're, you're, you're in that dirt, you're above, you're right around Dirk, you know?

• 47:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're, but you're in the Dirk, maybe a little edge above Dirk and you're in the Durant area.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  It's, it's pretty sacred territory and now that we're going through these lists,

• 47:36Speaker 01

  I, I, I can't argue against it. That the what if is that, is that severe and the what if ceiling is, is that high?

• 47:44Bill Simmons?

  You got Hakeem, 95, 22 playoff games, 33 points a game, 10.3 rebounds, 4.5 assists.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Some.

• 47:55Bill Simmons?

  If you're criminally underrating Hakeem, you can go to hell, whoever's listening.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  You know, who's not criminally underrating Hakeem from 1995? Dave, David Robinson.

• 48:03Bill Simmons?

  Or Shaquille O'Neal.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, well Shaq, that's right.

• 48:05Bill Simmons?

  Or either of those guys. Um, yeah, two, couple other quick things with him. Three first team All-Bas, three second team All-Bas, that's it for Kawhi, because he kept getting hurt. You could say he's.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Still like a lot, that's a lot.

• 48:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's a lot. It's a nice one. You could say he's responsible for title teams in San Antonio, Toronto, and maybe Oklahoma City this year.

• 48:31Bill Simmons?

  Because he wants the Clipper. I'm only coming to the Clippers if you give me Paul George. And that leads to, you know.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Lots of stuff that's still, still going on.

• 48:43Bill Simmons?

  The last 10 years of the playoff games, including the two this that we've just had, 2016 through the 25 playoffs, he's 28 and eight, 51% shooting, 39% from three, 88%. 66 games. It's a 10 year stretch. Kept getting hurt. And then, oh, in the 2019 Raptors, 30 and nine, four assists, 49% field goal for the whole playoffs. But here's the other thing with him. And this is crazy. 733 regular season games total. That's his career, which seems low considering he was in the 2011 draft. 726 winning percentage all time.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  It's Tim Duncan 2.0. It's this, it's incredible. The symmetry of those.

• 49:26Bill Simmons?

  So here's the list. Magic, Bird, Casey Jones, Cooper, Tommy Heinsohn, Kawhi, Duncan, Sam Jones. Sam Jones, Russell is our top nine.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  So a bunch of Celtics.

• 49:37Bill Simmons?

  When I play, my team wins almost 73% of the time. And yet I can't stay on the court. And by the way, there are Clipper fans probably listening to this going, you motherfuckers, he's going to get hurt in game three because you guys did this segment. But there's never been a career like this. Where he might be. He might end up being like the best guy in the West for the next, you know, this round, then the next two, which, you know, I didn't see, you talked about giving up on this. I gave up on giving up on this. I was like three levels beyond giving up on this. Even when he came back during the season, I was like, all right, this is stupid. He's just going to get hurt again.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Even as you're watching the Clippers finish at whatever, 16 and four, whatever. They've had incredible last 35 games.

• 50:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  And he looks incredible.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  And you are saying out loud what, what is completely reasonable, which is that in your opinion, this is the second best team in the Western Conference.

• 50:36Bill Simmons?

  No question.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  And I'm like, yeah, that makes total sense. And my brain just can't even, it still puts them over here in like a separate category of the standings. Just because I just never believed we would see it again. I just, I wouldn't allow myself to, and, and again, he hasn't finished a season since 2020, but I'm glad he brought it back to this year because I think this is the coolest thing happening in basketball right now. I, I don't know how far this team can get if he stays healthy and plays like this, but it's minimal conference finals. I think they could be, I, I don't know, I don't want to put a ceiling on it. Thunder are going to be favored against anybody.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Well, I guess not minimal conference finals because they're in the thunders bracket. So we'll see like where, where they can go.

• 51:22Bill Simmons?

  But would you rather catch the thunder sooner or later? Would you rather catch the thunder after they've just completely demolished this crappy Memphis team? And now all of a sudden they're moving up in weight class.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  I liked, by the way.

• 51:33Bill Simmons?

  And they need that one game to adjust almost.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  I liked Drusillo's idea that if you lose by 50 or more in game one, it counts as two, a two wins for the team.

• 51:42Bill Simmons?

  They tried to push that through.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  But I will say like, I, I not only is this about Kawhi, I think, I think the Clippers are the team of the year, the franchise of the year almost in the NBA. I mean, the Thunder are the obvious choice because they won 60 day games and they're just incredibly well set up for now and tomorrow to, to a level that no team has ever been. But for the Clippers to win 50 games and be looking like this in the postseason, after they lost Paul George and everyone, including me, just wrote this entire era off as now we're just killing time until we pivot into a rebuild and we get our picks back. It'll be cool.

• 52:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, we were saying like, you're only doing this because you have a new arena. This is fool's gold. You just want to bring people in and make them feel okay that they can recognize a couple of players.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  And the front office was like, actually, I think we signed some pretty good role players in free agency and we have a lot of faith in Zubots to make another level. And if Kawhi ever can play and we're doing our best, we feel like we're still like a pretty, and they didn't, I don't even think they expected. I think they thought we could be like a cool 46 win, tough as nails, defensive oriented team. And for them to be this is incredible. It's an incredible job by the coaching staff, Ty Lou, Jeff Van Gundy, the whole staff. It's, I think they, they're like the franchise of the year in the NBA, maybe second to the Thunder, I guess. You can't undersell what an incredible accomplishment it is for them to be a 50 win team and going toe to toe with the

• 53:07Speaker 01

  best player in the world in a playoff series in the, you know, middle to upper half of the Western Conference bracket. It's ridiculous.

• 53:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, and they know they could play with OKC. They have a real identity, which I think is so hard to find. And there's two teams in the East that have an identity.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  That's it?

• 53:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the Knicks do not have an identity. They just do not.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Concerning first couple of games for.

• 53:32Bill Simmons?

  They do not have an identity. Remember when I, when we did that pod and I said Tibbs was my wild card? Don't be surprised. I'm feeling better about that prediction.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Can I give you a third? This is supposed to be.

• 53:44Bill Simmons?

  Identity teams.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Pacers, Pacers have an identity.

• 53:47Bill Simmons?

  No, good call. Okay, I'll accept it. Clippers have an identity and unfortunately it's built around this awesome player and they just kind of never know with him, you know, and they, if you, like I heard Marcus Morris today, I saw him on ESPN talk, he's, he played with Kawhi and he loves him. And he was like, Kawhi was the first guy there. Like the guy works his ass off. He gets this reputation that he doesn't, but the guy worked as hard as any team I'd had. But if you talk to people around the Clippers and Kawhi is always this thing like, yeah, we don't know. He does his own thing. He's kind of over here and we just kind of keep our fingers crossed that he's going to be awesome. The difference this time versus some of the other times.

• 54:27Bill Simmons?

  He just looks good. Like when you watch him, like his side to side stuff and the athleticism, it feels like it's back. He's got lift on his jumper. Like he made a couple of jumpers last night. In traffic with a hand in his face and he's able to elevate now like he used to. And he just has that line drive shot. He can get over anybody. And he's such a weird player. There's no player like him now. Who's like, I just want to get this 14 footer. I just want to get to my spot and get it and I'm going to get it. And you know, so.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  That's why he's always been an elite postseason player, among many other things is that there is some truth to the idea that in the playoffs, you need a little bit more than in the regular season, at least.

• 55:07Bill Simmons?

  Need some.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Guys who can get those shots. And he can get, like the last shot he made last night to put the Clippers up at 105, 102, I think it was. Yeah, it was the last shot of the game. The last basket of the game. They ran a pick and roll to try and get Jamal Murray switched on to him. And for maybe the first time in the entire game, the Nuggets decided, we're not giving you this switch. We're going to hedge with Jamal Murray. Risk leaving the screener, who I think was Norm Powell, open and figure that part out. We're just not taking Aaron Gordon off you. And he was like, cool. Like Aaron Gordon is a tank. I'm, I'm totally cool with this. I'm still going to get to my spot. And he looked, he made that jumper from the right wing over Aaron Gordon. And it was vintage Kawhi. The height,

• 55:50Speaker 01

  the trajectory, the ease with which he got there against a defender who's one of the only guys in the league who can match his size, strength and athleticism. And it was just like walking the freaking park.

• 56:02Bill Simmons?

  Denver was basically an underdog heading into the series. Clippers were minus 118 favorites. Denver wins game one. I talked about this Sunday night. It flips just a little. So Denver became a minus 118 favorite, whereas the Minnesota things flipped wildly. Now on Fanduel, the Clippers are minus 180 to win the series. And honestly, if, if you, if you tell me, you know, way to know this, but if you're like Kawhi's playing the rest of the series and it'll be at the level you're seeing, I don't see how Denver wins. I also think Denver has some real issues. It goes beyond the Westbrook stuff. It's, it's just rocky. Like you gotta be, for what this Clippers team is with Kawhi, you have to be pretty sure of who you are and what you are. And.

• 56:48Bill Simmons?

  The Nuggets, all they know is that Jokic is fucking awesome. And I don't think they know anything else about their team, right? And they're beyond six guys. They don't even know who the seventh guy is.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  And he's getting frustrated too.

• 56:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  He's getting frustrated with the officials. He's been pretty demonstrative, not in a bad way, but with teammates trying to point them in the right direction. Seven turnovers, missed some big free throws in both games, including two late in game one, only six of 10 from the line yesterday. I mean,

• 57:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, don't, does he look a little worn down to you too?

• 57:19Speaker 01

  I'd be worn down carrying.

• 57:21Bill Simmons?

  I thought last night as a, as a giant Jokic watcher, as I know you are too, but last night, the guy seemed like he was physically beaten up last night. You know, he's had 20 minor injuries, nothing major, but I sound like I'm making excuses for him. He sucked last night down the stretch. He's bad.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  It's funny you say that because I was, I was in my notes, I was taking on the game. I can't remember when it was in the game, but I'm paying very close attention to every Murray Jokic pick and roll, how the Nuggets decide to guard it.

• 57:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Different ways, different, their default strategy has been X, Y, and Z. And there were two in a row, I think in the third quarter, maybe where they didn't, they didn't need to do anything dramatic. They didn't even need to do the, their sort of usual response to it so far in this series because Jokic didn't pop to three, which is dangerous for them. And he didn't roll into floater area for like a pocket pass from Murray, which is a danger area for them. So Zubotz just kind of saw, he just sort of stood at the point of the screen, like 19 feet from the basket. And Zubotz was like, oh, cool. I can just sort of drop back and play this like a normal pick and roll. And the worst case scenario is he gets a 20 foot jump shot. This

• 58:35Speaker 01

  is, this is a nice reprieve. And I just took note of those because I was like, I, you don't see him do that very, very often. And I said in my notes, like, maybe he's tired. He should be. He's playing 40 gazillion minutes every night on a team that needs him to do literally everything on offense for them to survive.

• 58:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he was four for eight from three last night. I just remember. It triggered me in the memories of the Minnesota series last year when I just thought he lost his legs as that series went on because they they were just absolutely murdering him game after game and they had so many big bodies to throw to them. Then by the end of it, the three the three pointers started to go. When he starts missing free throws, I always feel like that's a bad sign, but I just think the burden he's carrying on this team, especially not knowing if Porter's gonna show up or not. Porter showed up last night, rebounded.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  You did.

• 59:22Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if he's gonna show up for game three. This seems like a team, and we've watched a lot of playoffs and I'm even older than you. This seems like a team teetering on this could really go badly in these next two Clipper games, or they'll just look, Jokic will be great in game three and be like, ah, what were we worried about? But I just feel like they're, like, if I go through every other team, like, the Knicks have real problems. We knew this. I don't, I didn't really change anything I thought of the Knicks, other than I was surprised how well the Pistons have played. The seven of the eight quarters, they look good, right? They they'd won a horrible quarter and it's a 1-1 series. The Knicks, we knew they didn't have a bench. We knew they were gonna have to play too many minutes with those guys. Denver,

• 1:00:05Bill Simmons?

  I could just see this going any direction now, and I think the Clippers are better than them. So we'll see with Kawhi, but I'm glad we captured this moment because-

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Can I just add one more Kawhi thing that is too irresistible, given that this is a podcast with you? I think about Kawhi 100 nights a year, 50 nights a year, for this reason and this reason only. I don't even know if you remember this. After the 2017 season, when Russ wins the MVP and averages a triple double, you voted for Harden, I believe, right?

• 1:00:38Bill Simmons?

  It was the most we've ever texted about an MVP, and you did a classic Zach rope-a-dope, and you went, although I could feel you going toward Kawhi.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  That was one where I just felt it in my gut. But anyway, so you voted for Harden and you're so proud of the vote that I believe you had them made. You were someone in Grantland had them had these shirts made. I should have brought it, but it looks disgusting.

• 1:01:00Bill Simmons?

  What was that? Right side of history?

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  There's a white T-shirt and it says 2017 MVP, right side of history. And it has a photo of Russ and a photo of Harden and it and a check mark in a box next to Harden. And now that's been, that's in my pajama rotations. It's one of my pajama shirts. So I look at it and it makes me smile, but it also pisses me off because I have the wrong vote for me on the shirt. I need a Kawhi version of, I look at the shirt, Kawhi's not on it. It's the right side of history is James Harden. They're like, well, that's not my side of history, but I wear it anyways pajamas. So I think about the 2017 MVP, like a third of the year because it's pajamas.

• 1:01:39Bill Simmons?

  Did you vote for Harden second?

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  Probably. I think so. I, I'd have to go look it up. I probably did. Yeah. That was the year like LeBron was fourth and you just felt like this is insane or that, you know, this is the way this is breaking. How? Why? But that's how it broke.

• 1:01:54Bill Simmons?

  There, the LeBron MVP conversation goes every once in a while. The only one he has a case for after 2013 is the 18 one when Harden beat him. And the numbers were around the same. I voted for Harden too, but Houston won 65 games and you know, Cleveland.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  LeBron spent six straight weeks pouting and giving everyone's side eyes.

• 1:02:18Bill Simmons?

  Which nobody remembers from basketball reference. He did his whole.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  He hated his team. It was like, I need you to trade all these, all these people.

• 1:02:24Bill Simmons?

  Basketball reference doesn't capture that unfortunately, but that's, that's the one that I think people mentioned, but Harden clearly should have won that year. All right. Zach, you have a podcast coming Thursday?

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Thursday, we're going to recap everything that happens Wednesday and Tuesday, depending on which series we have time to talk about, uh, and look ahead to games threes and games fours. I think that's coming right off a Warriors Rockets game two, and it's coming right off Lakers. Wolves will have a couple of extra days of rest. So we'll see if the Lakers are down 0-2, it's going to be DEFCON DEFCON one across the airwaves, baby. Let's go.

• 1:02:59Bill Simmons?

  Are you on Kaminga watch or have you just sold out your stock and given up?

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  I'm gonna keep the stock because I'm going down with the ship. I still, Tim Legler and I used to joke that we needed T-shirts made on, that we could wear on television and the T-shirts would have just said, John, I think Kaminga is good. Cause we were both, that, that like, we both would just be like, I don't understand. Like, we think this guy's good. Warriors fans, it's incredibly polarizing. Some of them just think he stinks. I still think he's interesting and good, but I, you know, if they're not dusting them off now and they're winning games, I, I kinda think the ship has sailed, but you never know in the playoff, the longer you stay in the playoffs, if they get through this series, you know, the matchups change, someone gets hurt, you never know, but I, I don't even think about him anymore, sadly.

• 1:03:43Bill Simmons?

  I don't think Steve Kerr does either. Zach, fantastic to see you. I'm so glad you're with us. Thanks for coming on.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:03:51Bill Simmons?

  All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again, that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps

• 1:04:33Bill Simmons?

  going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FTIC. All right, we're taping this part of the podcast early my time on Tuesday morning because Peter Schreger is about to fly to. Green Bay for the NFL Draft. Why are we having the NFL Draft in Green Bay? The single hardest city to get to out of all the NFL cities. Why are we doing this?

• 1:05:10Speaker 02

  So hard. Planes, trains and automobiles. I think the NFL has decided that sunny weather and new stadiums get the Super Bowl and then cold weather, Cleveland, Philly, Detroit, Green Bay, you get the draft. But yes, this will, this will be a different destination than just a direct flight on Delta to Detroit like last year.

• 1:05:31Bill Simmons?

  I forgot to introduce you as ESPN's Peter Schrager.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. The worldwide leader. You paved the way for me and now I'm here. Here we go.

• 1:05:39Bill Simmons?

  I bet. What way did I pave?

• 1:05:44Speaker 02

  I started reading you back in 2002 at my college dorm on ESPN page two and I said, someday I want to write for that website. I didn't realize that 23 years later I'd be on, on air doing it on ESPN, but I'm here, Bill. Let's go.

• 1:05:58Bill Simmons?

  Have they, what's the longest stretch? What's the longest day you've had? Like, how many shows have you done in one day? Did you do a three show day yet?

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  I did. I'm about to experience what they call the car wash at the draft. I got my schedule. It's like, so Thursday morning, you're going to do Get Up, then you're going to do SportsCenter, and then you're going to do NFL Live, and then you're going to do, and I'm like, okay, all right. So we'll see how this goes. But I'm an egomaniac. I'm a narcissist. I like seeing myself on TV and I'm cool with that.

• 1:06:26Bill Simmons?

  You love this stuff, though. You'll, you're ready to do multiple hours at a time. I mean, you were just on Get Up an hour ago. Now you're on this podcast. You're ready to go.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  No doubt. I'm excited. And it's funny, like, we're sitting in the Get Up production meeting and it's Marcus Morris and it's Damian Woody and it's Carlos Boozer and we're talking about the Knicks and you know, I'm a diehard Knicks fan and I'm just like trying to stay quiet because I'm here for NFL Draft stuff and I just. Just spill my heart. I'm like, I just can't watch Di Vincenzo hitting threes and Randall bullying LeBron and Hartenstein looking like he's an all world center. And I'm looking at

• 1:07:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:00Speaker 02

  Karl-Anthony Towns unable to score and Dennis Schrager all up in everyone's face or Schrager. It's like, so they let me talk about the Knicks, which was fun. And I'll tell you, man, like, all these ESPN shows, I was biting my tongue last week. It's like, if they don't get past the Celtics and the Cavs, is it a disappointment for the Knicks? I'm like, the Celtics and the Cavs, like, I'm petrified of the Pistons and

• 1:07:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  Here we are, and you're gonna go to the game tonight or whatever, and you're gonna see Di Vincenzo and Randall light it up again, and the Knicks had zero from Cat and zero from Mikal Bridges when it mattered.

• 1:07:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it does feel like the Knicks fans didn't have enough time to enjoy whatever the team that kind of blossomed last year was. And then all of a sudden, it just blew up. I don't think, I personally don't think Tibbs is the right coach for the team that they currently assembled. And maybe we'll find that out after the year, whether they agree with me. But, you know, they played the two games against the Pistons at home, and they lost seven of the eight quarters, basically?

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  No doubt. And they didn't look like the better team, or the better coached team. And, you know, campaign in the first game scores 14 and is like this huge spark plug off the bench. He gets three fouls early. We don't see him the rest of the night. And they had eight bench points, eight, and they're all from Deuce McBride. None of them of great significance. So, as a Knicks fan, I'm sitting here, the series is tied at one, but I'm not exactly full of optimism. But that's what I bring to ESPN. That's what I bring.

• 1:08:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, multi-sport capability, passion, optimism. We're gonna talk NFL Draft, which we haven't talked about in the last like, five, six weeks, as I've thrown myself into it. I don't even know where to start, because on the one hand, it feels like a draft that can go chalk. You were on Get Up today, reporting that teams are trying to trade up for two or three?

• 1:08:48Bill Simmons?

  And we don't even really know for who, whether it's like a Travis Hunter play, is it Abdul Carter play? Is it? I just refuse to believe Sanders is a top three pick at this point. Even if the Giants wanted to take him at three, why wouldn't they just flip picks with the Patriots and try to get like a third round pick or anything? Why would they take him at three? Why don't move back? Why don't move back one spot? I can't imagine in a million years he goes three. I'm not even sure he goes in the first round.

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  I don't think Shador Sanders was ever a top three pick. This is my big treatise on the NFL draft world and the NFL. Like I, I really value what Mel Kiper has to say. And like,

• 1:09:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:26Speaker 02

  Daniel Jeremiah is like the best in the business and, and all of these different pundits on TV, like for a good month there after the combine, it was like, well, you've got, you know, Cam Ward, you got Abdul Carter, you've got Travis Hunter, you got Shador Sanders. Like the, at no point in this process was anyone telling me that Shador Sanders was a top five pick or a top 10, you know, pick. And then even when the Saints, like nebulous Derek Carr injury, which I roll my eyes about, I don't know what's the story there, but Derek Carr is now-

• 1:09:57Bill Simmons?

  Do you think that was an, ooh, my arm? I think it's broken.

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  I can't, I can't say anything publicly because then it comes out, but like that one came out of nowhere. I don't think the Saints saw that one coming. Derek Carr's shoulder and everyone's just like, ooh, Saints are gonna take him. Guys, I think everyone's mistaking what, what we want Shador Sanders to be into what the NFL evaluators see him as. So here's my take on Shador. If he goes three to the Giants, this is one of those cases where they did all the work. They feel comfortable with him. And it's like, if we like him at 15 or we like him at 20 in this year's draft, who cares if it's not one of the blue chip guys? Take him at three. We've got our quarterback. We took him at three. We're good.

• 1:10:41Bill Simmons?

  This is the Bo Nix Denver last year, right?

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  No doubt.

• 1:10:44Bill Simmons?

  You know what? We like him. We'll just take him 12. Can we get him at 28? Sure.

• 1:10:49Speaker 02

  Blake Bortles to Jacksonville. I remember that pick also. He went third overall. Everyone's like, they took Blake Bortles third. Like, and it was a big, if we like him as a quarterback in the first round and we have the third pick, like, we're not going to get cute here. So that's it with Shador. And we're recording this on Wednesday.

• 1:11:04Speaker 02

  I could tell you, there is a, there is a, sorry, what is today? Today's Tuesday. There is a meeting that's going to happen on Wednesday between John Marham and all of the brain trust from the Giants and they're going to go through their draft board and they've talked, of course, it's been fluid throughout, but like, this is one of those where does the owner step in and say, guys, I am not going through another draft year where we don't get a quarterback. If we like Shador, I'm okay with you taking him at three. I don't see it happening right now. I see a far more likely scenario being the Giants take Abdul Carter at three and then they trade back into the first round and get either Jackson Dart or Shador Sanders. But just to empty the bag a little bit on this whole

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  thing, like, the Giants have been to multiple Shador Sanders games. They have been to, I know Joe Shane himself was at a practice earlier this year. They went, they sent 13 people to the pro day. He came to New Jersey. They not only did a visit with him, they then took him out to dinner in Jersey and then last week they went back out there for a private workout, which I'm told went well. That, and Pat Shermer is, is offensive coordinator at, you know, in, and he's got great relationships with Dable and Shane. So you've got like, if you don't want to look at the Deon side of it, there's also another voice in there. That said, Joe Shane's daughter goes to Ole Miss. He's been around

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  that program a whole bunch. Joe Judge, former head coach of the Giants also, works for Ole Miss football right now. So there are people in the organization who are still employed by the Giants, who can get the full story on Jackson Dart from Joe Judge, who still talks to those guys. Charlie Weiss's kid calls the plays. Brian Dable and Charlie Weiss, the biggest thieves, have a long relationship. So as much as we want to say, like, well, they put all this time into Shador, they know Jackson Dart also. So I am not convinced that Shador is this quarterback. The Giants are certainly being linked to. I think Jackson Dart could easily be that guy as well.

• 1:13:07Bill Simmons?

  Shephard had a tidbit about how, which I agree with, that some organizations slash coaching staffs would be afraid of taking Sanders because Deion is just looming over you as your replacement as head coach the moment you take his son, which I think ties into what I see with the Giants. And, you know, I have some intel on the Pats. The Pats don't, the Pats don't know what the Giants are going to do. And the Pats are heading into this draft prepared to not know up until the Giants are on the clock and then building out all their scenarios from there. But I think the intel a lot of people are having are you have the people who, they might not be there in a year in the Giants,

• 1:13:48Bill Simmons?

  right? The GM, the coach, well, they just, can we just take the best possible player and whatever. You have the long-term planning people who are like, maybe we, you know, maybe we could turn this pick into a bigger asset. And then you have the owner, who knows what the family thinks. So you basically have three different sides, all who have these vested interests. Like, what if Dayball's like, I'm going to get fired unless we take Sanders at three and he's good. If Sanders is at three and he's good, I might keep my job for a little bit. He might also think the opposite way and be like, if we take Sanders, I'm definitely getting fired.

• 1:14:24Speaker 02

  No doubt. No doubt.

• 1:14:26Bill Simmons?

  So I just think it's so interesting how many different agendas are going on and what a mess they've been for the last decade, which is just a fact.

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  The word, the word is a giant delta on what, on what Sanders' draft stock could be. And three is where it begins. And I will not close the door on the Giants at three because of exactly what you're saying. There's different agendas going on. There also might be different evaluations and there's different philosophies on, hey, if we draft Abdul Carter and he gets seven sacks and we're five and 12, like it doesn't, that doesn't help any of us. And it doesn't necessarily do anything to strengthen the team far greater than what they have, which is Brian Burns and Dexter Lawrence and Kayvon Thibodeau. They have defensive line. So it's not like this is some pressing need. That would just be, hey, he could be Micah Parsons or hey, he could be Lawrence Taylor. That's why you take him up at three. But

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  Miles Garrett might be the best pass rusher in the sport. There's been, you know, a lot of turnover in Cleveland since they took Miles Garrett. You get a quarterback and suddenly you say, okay, well, Dable's a quarterback guy. You know, we've got to pay some time here to see this quarterback develop a little bit. That's why we have Russ. And then you kind of give yourself a little breathing room and say, well, there's obviously signs of development. I, I would also add with the, the Shador thing. He could go three there. He could still be on the board at 34. So to me, this is one of those where, and I, I've said it and I get like, people get caught up in the comparison, but

• 1:15:57Speaker 02

  not since Johnny Menzel have we had a prospect where I walked into draft night and said, this guy can go first overall, or this guy doesn't even belong in the first round because of so many differing opinions. And my last point on.

• 1:16:10Bill Simmons?

  Well, Lamar had like, what, like a 20 pick swing for where he could go. Like it would have been shocking if he was in the high teens. It would have been shocking if he fell to the second round.

• 1:16:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And what's amazing about the Lamar one is that people forget the Ravens took Hayden Hurst at 22. So it's not like he was, they took a tight end and then they traded back and Lamar says, I'm going to get you guys a Super Bowl ring. And it's like, all right, well, we'll see. Well, sure enough, he's, he's everything you'd want and more, but people forget that 30 teams passed on him, including the Baltimore Ravens.

• 1:16:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's the Patriots with Brady. They passed on him in the fourth round and the fifth round.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  No doubt.

• 1:16:45Bill Simmons?

  And they took him in the sixth round. So it's like smart, but you also passed on him.

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  The Deion thing is interesting. So Shador Sanders has never played for a coach other than his dad.

• 1:16:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  In high school and in college.

• 1:16:58Bill Simmons?

  Red flag?

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  What's up?

• 1:17:00Bill Simmons?

  Is that a red flag or is that just weird?

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  And then it's, well, he didn't do that. He just plays for his father and, and, and that's fine. The other side of it is like Deion's shadow might be large, but like if you're a coach and you're that insecure, then you probably have your own issues. Like Mike Tomlin is the reason I would think Pittsburgh makes sense. Cause Mike Tomlin's not going to be, he's not going to be nervous of like Deion Sanders talking in the media locally about his son. That said, you go to a weaker coaching staff in a weaker market and they're one and seven and Shador's still not on the field.

• 1:17:39Speaker 02

  Deon, Deon might have something to say. A couple of other things, just because-

• 1:17:43Bill Simmons?

  Wait, can I ask you a quick, before you do the couple of other things?

• 1:17:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Bill Simmons?

  What's the craziest team in round one that could take Shador? That you think there's actually like a 1% chance it could happen? So it's completely insane, but also you could see it. Is there a team?

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  There's, there's, there's two teams.

• 1:18:06Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  Not at 11, but you're telling me Shador's still on the board at 30, 31, 32? And we've got Brock Purdy talking about where he wants and what he wants the San Francisco, you know, pull the plug and just say, screw it. We'll take two young quarterbacks. We'll see. We'll still sign, maybe, you know?

• 1:18:26Bill Simmons?

  So not, but not at 11, but maybe a trade back?

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  And then Seattle, who gave Sam Darnold a three-year deal, but there's a lot of ways out of that three-year deal after the first year or second year. And if Seattle was to look at things and say, we like Shador and let's just give ourselves some security here behind him. That would be two teams that I think that no one's talking about. That could be a possibility. San Francisco would be a giant leverage play just to press it to Purdy and put him in a corner because he's, those contract talks are going on right now. And I don't think they'd ever waste a first round pick to just make a point. I think Purdy is the guy they want, but you talk about him slipping, who knows?

• 1:19:07Bill Simmons?

  All right. We'll hold on to the Niners because I want to come back to them. What was your couple of other things that you had off this?

• 1:19:12Speaker 02

  You know, Deon has a lot of people that he's done work with and works with in the media. So I think there's been a little bit of like this sensitivity of, of being negative on Shador. And I don't know if it's, if it's helped Shador in the long run because now if Shador doesn't go in the first 20 picks, it's this great slide and it's like, but you know, Deon worked for CBS, Deon worked for NFL Network for many years. Deon has obviously great relationships with Fox and he's got a show on Tubi. He's got a documentary on Amazon. Like, we all love Deon, who worked in the media at any spot with him. And like, I worked with Deon at NFL Network. He's amazing. And he's like, oh, great, great. So I think

• 1:19:55Speaker 02

  this whole lead up to the draft, the people who have been talking about the draft are careful. I don't know if that's done him any favors if there is a slide in the draft that would also

• 1:20:06Bill Simmons?

  And meanwhile, people are saying like, eh, he might be Andy Dalton, Teddy Bridgewater, like that level. That's probably the ceiling.

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  I think your guy McShay had some things to say out of the combine and it was as if he had like, you know, said something about.

• 1:20:18Bill Simmons?

  He's been consistent this whole time. He just doesn't have him as a top 25 guy, period.

• 1:20:23Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. And, you know, for Todd to do that, that's him going out on a limb. I think some other people have been out there saying, I don't see him as this guy. But it's a lot safer just to say, ah, yeah, we like Shador. But when the rubber hits the road, who's going to be there answering the questions as to why is he slipping out?

• 1:20:40Bill Simmons?

  Listen, after, after Knicks last year, I just think that's the league now. If you like your guy, what, what, who care, who's going to remember 10 years ago, what number in the draft he was? Like, if you want your guy, you want your guy. And if you talk yourself into a QB, which is the make or break position every year, you're going to do it. And it doesn't really matter where you take them. Three is too high.

• 1:21:01Speaker 02

  I would, I would also add this with the Shador thing. So obviously all eyes have been on him. Huge spotlight. They had reality shows at Amazon. Um, you know, Deion has the famous video of him with the amazing, you know, draft day look at Andrew Kramer in his living room. I don't know what the plans are to cover Shador during draft day, but like, if there's 10 cameras in his living room and we've got, you know, wall to wall coverage of him, that tells me they know something. And if there isn't that, that tells me that this thing is still very undetermined. So I would almost approach the day of the draft and see, okay, well, let's see how much access we have to the Sanders family. Now, all that could be moot and they're doing their own documentary and maybe they're filming

• 1:21:46Speaker 02

  something that we don't even know about. And they've already sold the rights to, to Fubo or to Netflix or whoever. But like, these guys have never shied away from the spotlight. And I'd be curious to see how much spotlight and attention that they're getting or they're asking for on the day of the draft.

• 1:22:01Bill Simmons?

  Did Fubo come after you when you were a free agent? Or was there?

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  I'm waiting for the Fubo.

• 1:22:06Bill Simmons?

  Fubo talks? No Fubo talks?

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  No Fubo.

• 1:22:08Bill Simmons?

  Can we just all agree? And maybe I'm saying this selfishly as a Pats fan with the fourth pick in a three part draft. Um, the most fun outcome to all of this is the Pats and Giants flip picks. The pass take Carter Sanders goes to the Giants at four. And we just get to talk about that for the rest of the offseason heading into the thing. And maybe he's a little better than we thought. And the Giants fans will talk themselves into him almost immediately. Them taking Carter is just a weird pick.

• 1:22:42Bill Simmons?

  That's another piece of this like that team that team has holes everywhere. I would say the only thing they don't really need to address in the 2025 draft is the defensive line.

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  They've got one. They've got one of the better young defensive lines in football. You could argue Dexter Lawrence is the best defensive tackle in the sport. And then Thibodeau is entering his fifth year. So obviously he's got a contract situation that's looming. And then on the other end.

• 1:23:06Bill Simmons?

  For Burns like.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  Burns, they spent a lot of money on.

• 1:23:09Bill Simmons?

  You're almost like, do you take Carter like you, maybe you shop Thibodeau at that point? You decide not to pay him like I, for a team that has holes everywhere. It just seems like such a weird pick to me, but that's how top heavy this draft is. Until we get to Gentey, who's the wild card of everything. I want to talk about that. Let's take a break quick. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Workday.

• 1:23:52Bill Simmons?

  Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new workday. All right. Gentey, the running back, uh, just a beast. He's doing the thing where he's just calling out teams. If you take me, I'm going to be awesome. Here's my, here's my letter. Here's my promise. It's a position that, you know, you think back to when Zeke Elliott was in the draft and he was awesome.

• 1:24:36Bill Simmons?

  That was 2016 and he seems like he's a hundred years old now and he's like 31. It's a seven, eight year shelf life. You might get the guy on the rookie contract plus one more contract. If you get eight, nine, 10 years out of a running back, it's amazing. And yet he has a chance to be immediately one of the top five guys at his position. Now it's a position that when you're paying for it, when you see like free agency and you see the numbers, different positions get, what did Barclay get? What was his last contract, like 16, 17 a year?

• 1:25:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, he got a new extension from the Eagles and finally got made whole.

• 1:25:12Bill Simmons?

  16, 17 range?

• 1:25:14Speaker 02

  It was 12, yeah.

• 1:25:15Bill Simmons?

  Or 12, so McCaffrey is like somewhere in the 12 to 14 with some bonus.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, McCaffrey and Saquon both are like 16, 17 right now.

• 1:25:24Bill Simmons?

  Right, so the high end is 16, 17. If I have one of the top five left tackles, that high end is, you know, in the high twenties. If I have one of the best nose tackles, that high end is what the Patriots played Williams. That's, you know, that's in the mid twenties. If I have a cornerback or a receiver, cornerback might be high twenties. Receiver, the market now is like low thirties. Quarterback is 50. Edge rusher, that's in the thirties now. So I look at like where the Pats are picking at four and it's like, you take Gentey, you have a top five guy at your position going forward.

• 1:26:01Bill Simmons?

  But it's a position that is valued at 13 to 16 million a year, at the highest possible end of it. But if you take the edge rusher from Georgia and he's good, that's now like a $28 million a year guy. So I don't understand why teams don't just think this way. Like what is, what are the best players worth in our salary cap? And why don't they just shift their drafts that way? But they don't think that way.

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  Well, they're not thinking about the second.

• 1:26:28Bill Simmons?

  To Gentey.

• 1:26:29Speaker 02

  They're not thinking about the second contract. They're thinking about the first one. And if you get a guy who can get you 10 sacks to 15 sacks in the first round and you're paying him rookie numbers for the first four years. Well, then you're getting the biggest bang for your buck and eventually you have to.

• 1:26:43Bill Simmons?

  You're getting an $8 million guy for, that's worth 28. Who's getting you 15 sacks. That's why like I, I would just be talking about this constantly. If I ran an NFL team like that's why the Will Campbell thing. If Will Campbell goes for and he's the 15th best left tackle in the league. It's like, that sucks. We don't have one of the best 14 left tackles, but he's still worth like 29 million a year as a left tackle.

• 1:27:08Speaker 02

  And here's, here's the, and like everyone I've spoken to is obsessed with Gentey.

• 1:27:15Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:27:15Speaker 02

  Teams like it is a home run. This is, there is no holes in his game. The, the pushback I got last night.

• 1:27:22Bill Simmons?

  Jameer Gibbs, basically.

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and he, he's so small to the ground, like his way he runs, he does the upright and then he goes low. It's, you cannot bring him down and what he did in the college level. Like there's a lot of stuff about him that you'll wanna run through a wall for. The fact that he was offered crazy money in NIL going into his last year. And he's like, no, I've got a job to do at Boise. I'm staying at, but that's the, it goes a long way in today's day and age of NIL. When these coaches and GMs are talking to players who've been to four colleges each to take the more dollar sign, you know, each time.

• 1:27:54Bill Simmons?

  Right. It's like my guy, Drake May in North Carolina.

• 1:27:58Speaker 02

  No doubt.

• 1:27:58Bill Simmons?

  My home is here.

• 1:28:00Speaker 02

  Had to finish it out.

• 1:28:01Bill Simmons?

  Are here.

• 1:28:02Speaker 02

  That's it. Um, planting roots. Uh, here, here's where the rub, the pushback is. Last year, there are all these running backs in the draft. Do you know who the leading rusher of all the rookie running backs was? It was Bucky Irving, who was a fourth round pick.

• 1:28:18Bill Simmons?

  That's the problem.

• 1:28:19Speaker 02

  The second leading rusher of all the rookies was Tyrone Tracy for the Giants, who quietly put together a thousand yard season while everyone was crying about Saquon leaving. Like he, he did basically what Saquon did the year before in that Giants offense. Um, so the opportunity cost of missing out in the gap of, okay, well, you know, we, we get Gentey, he could be amazing. And Jameer Gibbs was behind the best offensive line in football. And in a lot of ways, Saquon last year took this giant leap, not because, yes, Saquon's amazing, but he also was behind that Jeff Stoutland offensive line and it was a perfect fit. If your team has a ton of holes and your offensive line isn't great, taking a running

• 1:29:00Speaker 02

  back when, oh, I don't know, a left tackle or a pass rusher, however, Bill, this draft, there's three great players in this draft, and I will say that, there are three great players. It's Carter, it's Hunter, and it's Gentey. So if there ever was a year where you take a guy in the top five at running back, if you're Jacksonville, close your eyes, you take Gentey, you put him in there, you have your running back, and then you deal with everything, and you know you have that guy, because at five, Mason Graham or Ted McMillan, like, those are questions. Gentey is a sure thing. This guy is awesome. So this is the year for a top five running back because of the rest of that class up top.

• 1:29:37Bill Simmons?

  Here's the problem. I just was looking up as you were talking, the 2023 draft.

• 1:29:42Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 1:29:43Bill Simmons?

  Bijon goes eight to Atlanta.

• 1:29:45Speaker 02

  Solid pick.

• 1:29:47Bill Simmons?

  Everybody was like, one of the best running back prospects of the last decade. This guy's awesome. I like it. Jalen Carter goes ninth.

• 1:29:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:00Bill Simmons?

  What's a more important position? Who's gonna make more money on their second contract? Like, you think, and it's like, now you look back and like, wow, that was stupid. Now there are reasons Jalen Carter fell to nine.

• 1:30:11Speaker 02

  Look, who'd the Raiders take at seven that year? Look at that.

• 1:30:13Bill Simmons?

  Tyree Wilson.

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you pass on Jalen Carter for Tyree Wilson. However, Bill, you put Jalen Carter in Vegas, is it the same situation? I don't know.

• 1:30:21Bill Simmons?

  I, it's a great question. Jameer Gibbs goes 12. You were all excited about, we were doing podcasts that year, and you were like, this is an amazing pick. This is like a toy for the Lions, that this weapon they just get to use and move around. I think the difference with Gentey that would really fuck with me if I was in a draft room, is that he's just three downs. You have a guy who doesn't basically have to come off the field, who can play however many, you know, downs, touches, whatever. Yeah, look at the Patriots, they don't have enough, you know, left tackle. But they had him and Drake May. Does this become Peyton Manning, Edger James for,

• 1:31:03Bill Simmons?

  you know, seven years? And you can keep him on, you know, third down. Now, now he's like probably our best receiver on the field. Anyway, I don't think they should take him at four, but I'm sure they've had the conversation. But it seems like if he goes to the Bears at 10, I wonder if that's like a Gibbs kind of toy situation. Like, whoa, I don't see him going past 10.

• 1:31:25Speaker 02

  I don't either. Um, I look at New Orleans at nine. Kamara's the last year of his deal and, you know, Kellen Moore, new coach.

• 1:31:34Bill Simmons?

  That's a tough beat for New Orleans, though, who has 40 holes.

• 1:31:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I know. But what's your identity going to be? Your first pick of the new coach? Like, what, what are you going to be? If Gentey's there, I like that. I, I mean, I like it. I like it at six, obviously. I think there's a little too much about the Raiders that that tells me if they're talking about Gentey so much, usually.

• 1:31:54Bill Simmons?

  It's a little smoky.

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  But to me, five, Jacksonville, James Gladstone, interesting guy. 34 year old new GM of from the Rams. And Liam Cohen, like Schefter had it in his column on Sunday, and I've heard the same thing. They're going offense. What's our identity going to be? Now, if you're James Gladstone coming from the Rams where character was everything when they did their board and they had a whole philosophy. And I've been in the room with Les and with McVeigh. And it's like, what do we stand for? What if Ted McMillan, great player, great kid? The questions are, does he love football? Is his heart in this? He took plays off? Is that going to be your first pick as a GM of a team?

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  This is what we stand for. This is my Ted McMillan. This is my guy. I don't know. Ashton Gentey? You can look at everyone in that room and say, this is what we're about. This kid right here? This is what we stand for. And this is what Jaguars football is going to be. So I think he could go as high as five. I don't know.

• 1:32:51Bill Simmons?

  First guy in the locker room every morning, last guy to leave.

• 1:32:54Speaker 02

  Last guy to leave.

• 1:32:55Bill Simmons?

  Warrior.

• 1:32:56Speaker 02

  I don't know why we haven't heard more about the Patriots taking him.

• 1:33:02Speaker 02

  You know, I, to me, their, their team has been lacking offensive firepower. And if Campbell's not Orlando Pace or Jonathan Ogden, then why is he such a slam dunk? So to me, it's not my pick. Elliot Wolf and Mike Vrabel will make it. And I hear that there's a lot of love for Campbell in that building and great. Abdul Carter would be a wonderful selection at four as well, but like, for whatever reason, Gentey's been like crossed off the list from Patriots, but then the Jaguars, it's like, yep, that works for us.

• 1:33:27Bill Simmons?

  Couple of things in Campbell's favor, just in general. Van Lathan, giant LSU fan, absolutely loves him, thinks he's a warrior. He was in the E S C C just battling.

• 1:33:35Speaker 02

  I'll give Van credit. He was big on Brian Thomas last year.

• 1:33:37Bill Simmons?

  Van and Jaden Daniels was another one. He absolutely loved Jaden Daniels. Van's been good.

• 1:33:42Speaker 02

  Was he big on Nas Reed? Cause I didn't see Nas Reed being this out of LSU and Nas Reed doesn't miss a shot.

• 1:33:47Bill Simmons?

  I don't remember his Nas Reed takes. Campbell, so he shows up, what is he, 18 as a freshman? And he's just immediately thrown into the fire like a man's man leader, played every play, tough as nails. I heard this tidbit about Vrabel. I don't know if you've heard it.

• 1:34:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:34:09Bill Simmons?

  And it seems insane and I loved it and I'm going to share it here. Apparently when he's working out people, he has this thing about body mass and feeling like banging bodies. And if it's the right kind of player that they're looking at, he will actually put on the pads and bounce against them to feel what their bodies like. Like he's a big, how sturdy are you? How physical?

• 1:34:32Speaker 02

  Dude, he's done it at pro days.

• 1:34:34Bill Simmons?

  Okay. So you know about this. Yeah. Cause I was like, is that, there's no way. He's retired for 15 years.

• 1:34:39Speaker 02

  He'll do wrestling moves with the player and get him in all these weird positions to see how he reacts. No, it's real.

• 1:34:44Bill Simmons?

  Okay. So I would say like Will Campbell, who, poor Will Campbell, that his arms aren't an inch longer, right? It's an inch is like this big, by the way. And it's like, ah. Couldn't get to 34 inches. I don't know. Meanwhile, there's a bunch of like, Rashawn Slater's been been pretty good.

• 1:35:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a knock on him.

• 1:35:03Bill Simmons?

  Joe Thomas has been okay.

• 1:35:05Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:35:06Bill Simmons?

  But it just feels like Will Campbell, I could see Brable putting the pads on him and hitting him and be like, yeah, this is my kind of body mask guy. I just think they're going to take him.

• 1:35:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:15Bill Simmons?

  And it's like, look, if he, maybe he won't ever be the, one of the eight best left tackles in the league, but this is a guy who would be, he's going to be a leader. He's durable and he will be in the top half of left tackles, which is all you need because you can't find them. They're not falling out of trees, period.

• 1:35:34Speaker 02

  Is it a great, is it a great failure and a great disappointment if you're in, you're like, he's a good left tackle, but gosh, he's an amazing left guard. And do we move him inside and do we put someone else?

• 1:35:49Bill Simmons?

  Could you be a four time all pro at left guard? Like, is that a, is that a loss?

• 1:35:54Speaker 02

  Quinton Nelson went six.

• 1:35:56Bill Simmons?

  A loss for the Colts? Like, no.

• 1:35:59Speaker 02

  No, no, he's great. He was the best at his position for a decade. Like, I think he'd sign up for that.

• 1:36:03Bill Simmons?

  But that's what, when you're picking fourth or you're picking fifth or you're picking third, if you're in the top five, I have to get a blue chipper. And the only way I'm not doing that is if, if there's some quarterback that I'm doing my 50 50 coin toss on.

• 1:36:17Speaker 02

  And Bill, last year, Malik Neighbors was a blue chipper. Joe Alt was a blue chipper. This year, I hate to be so dismissive, and I think it actually adds to the intrigue of the draft. They're just not there. You can't make Will Campbell into a blue chipper. You just can't. So he's looked at as that.

• 1:36:32Bill Simmons?

  What if that guy from Pittsburgh, who nobody had ever heard of, who signed as a free agent, the left tackle?

• 1:36:37Speaker 02

  Moore?

• 1:36:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:39Bill Simmons?

  Didn't he get like 20 million a year?

• 1:36:40Speaker 02

  20 million? Yes.

• 1:36:42Bill Simmons?

  And, and everybody is like, we're not sure he's a starter. So when you think of it that way, if Campbell could just be the 14th best left tackle in the league, if that's his ceiling, it's like, well, that's probably a $29 million player.

• 1:36:56Speaker 02

  Armon Membo, Armon Membo, known and never heard of, and that's dismissive. I shouldn't say it that way, but he wasn't.

• 1:37:01Bill Simmons?

  No, no, he was a fast riser though. There's no question.

• 1:37:04Speaker 02

  He was definitely coming on strong. And then the combine was an absolute, you know, revelation. So if you're talking about arm length and that stuff and Campbell, maybe Membo's a tackle. He's a pure tackle and he has huge upside. I would always take the pedigree of the blue chipper who's done it, but I'm the same guy who would have taken Mac Jones over Trey Lance, you know, like I like knowing what I'm getting. And you look at some of these teams like the Chargers last year, their first four picks were out of Notre Dame, you know, Michigan, Alabama, USC, like that, that's what they do. Membu comes out of Missouri, doesn't have the same pedigree, doesn't have the same sort

• 1:37:44Speaker 02

  of resume, but is this physical freak. Where do you stand on Membu versus Campbell? Who you know what you're getting with Will Campbell. It's solid. It's a guy as solid as a rock, but he might not ever end up being, like I said, an Orlando Pace or a Trent Williams or a Jonathan Ogden type.

• 1:38:00Bill Simmons?

  Obviously I've done a lot of Membu work. Two, I have two questions. One, did Vrabel put the pads on with him yet? Bang and feel him out and put him in some wrestling moves? Does he, does Vrabel like his body mass? That would be one.

• 1:38:13Speaker 02

  I do know this. I do know this. The Patriots have been doing work on Membu and this is this week. They've made some calls and they've been asking around. So that door is not shut yet.

• 1:38:22Bill Simmons?

  So this is, this is what I know and what I've heard with the Pats where there's two types of players you're picking, right? And Belichick, I think his, his mistake, especially over the last 10 years was he would default toward these winning programs, you know, and you're getting guys from LSU, Alabama, who have already been maximized because those teams have the greatest possible college coaching staff. So you're getting somebody out of there and they've already been really well schooled. They've been, whatever's in there, a lot of it's been pulled out and that's how, why it's safe for bets to take some of these guys, right? The question for the Pats is they have an awesome coaching staff now that they feel really good about. And can you look at some of these guys from

• 1:39:06Bill Simmons?

  schools that maybe, maybe weren't the greatest, maybe didn't have like a defensive coordinator making $2 million a year or whatever. And maybe there's, there's some raw gem stuff for there. And it's like, well, what, what happens if we take this raw, awesome piece of something who's already has blue chip talent and we pull him into our universe and we coach him up? I think that's what Washington thought last year with some of their guys, right? They thought like they went and got these B-list veterans, put a bunch of like smart. Just tough vets and then kind of took some chances on eh, that guy was never in the right situation. Let's, let's give him a test drive because we love our nucleus. I think that's how the Pats are feeling, which is why I think Membo can't be ruled out at four.

• 1:39:52Speaker 02

  That's really interesting. And the, the, the Washington approach, which was Adam Peters, who has a history with New England.

• 1:39:59Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:39:59Speaker 02

  Was exactly what you said. Let's get a veteran for every position group. And that was Zach Ertz and Austin Eckler and Marcus Mariota and Fred, Frankie Louvoo and Zach Ertz. You go through all these guys that were not hot.

• 1:40:11Bill Simmons?

  But let's also get assistant coaches.

• 1:40:13Speaker 02

  No doubt.

• 1:40:14Bill Simmons?

  Are overqualified at all these different spots, which is kind of what the Pats are doing.

• 1:40:18Speaker 02

  And then they took a guy like Mike Sanastro in the draft, who everyone was like, well, he's a nickel. He's not really worthy of having. And then he was an all world rookie for the commanders out of the gate. Um, I'd push back on the Patriots thing. At the end of Belichick's stay, it was like Kyle Dugger from Lenore Ryan, and then he took Cole Strange, like.

• 1:40:36Bill Simmons?

  Right. Well, they went older. That was a new strategy near the end. Older guys who they could come in right away and be plug and play, which also didn't really work that way.

• 1:40:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm curious about the Patriots. I, I do think I might make my report today is real. Cleveland is getting calls. Does Cleveland just say, you know what? We're not a Travis Hunter away from being relevant.

• 1:40:58Bill Simmons?

  They should, they should a hundred percent trade back. What are they doing?

• 1:41:01Speaker 02

  Or the, and the Giants is a little more complicated.

• 1:41:03Bill Simmons?

  To win a Super Bowl for three years.

• 1:41:06Speaker 02

  No doubt. No doubt. So don't be shocked if Cleveland on Thursday were on the clock. Well, Cleveland's traded and then some aggressive team that is a couple steps away made the move. And because it's such a kind of depleted draft and because it's not a quarterback, it won't be the same bounty of picks that you usually get to move up to number two.

• 1:41:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. But who, what team is that? Because if you go through it, it's not anybody else in the top five. It's not, I don't think it's the Raiders.

• 1:41:34Speaker 02

  I don't think it's the Raiders.

• 1:41:35Bill Simmons?

  The Jets, the Panthers are too far away. Like you have to.

• 1:41:38Speaker 02

  The Panthers move up for Abdul Carter?

• 1:41:42Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 1:41:43Bill Simmons?

  If I were them, I wouldn't. I, the Bears were the one I was looking at as a move up team.

• 1:41:47Speaker 02

  I think the Bears are a trade back team.

• 1:41:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, cause they have some talent.

• 1:41:50Speaker 02

  I look at the Niners, the Niners window, right? Like now they've done this before. They went up and got Trey Lance.

• 1:41:58Bill Simmons?

  I don't see it. I don't see any of those teams in the top 15 being a whoa. If we get this guy. Do you?

• 1:42:06Speaker 02

  Miami Dolphins?

• 1:42:08Bill Simmons?

  Out there a mess. Come on.

• 1:42:10Speaker 02

  I'm just throwing out teams that are a playoff team that didn't have what they thought they should be, that are still in the waiting.

• 1:42:15Bill Simmons?

  Team that does seem crazy to me is the Raiders. Just because new coach.

• 1:42:20Speaker 02

  New coach.

• 1:42:20Bill Simmons?

  He's in his mid 70s. Tom Brady making a splash. They fall in love with Hunter. They think he can play both ways and. Wait, are you, do you, from what you, you talk to everybody and you do the on, on the record, then off the record and you love hearing like little tidbits about character and all the, all the stuff that sometimes you can't even use injury stuff. Is anyone worried about Carter and, and.

• 1:42:43Speaker 02

  Look, there's stuff coming out.

• 1:42:45Bill Simmons?

  Foot. It's not a stress fracture, but it's not great either. Like what is that?

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  I'll say this.

• 1:42:52Bill Simmons?

  His dad, like there's like all this stuff you're hearing about.

• 1:42:55Speaker 02

  You're on it dude.

• 1:42:55Bill Simmons?

  Now, it's like.

• 1:42:57Speaker 02

  It's, it's Travis Hunter. It's Abuka out of, out of Ohio state. It's Gentey and you hear about Jalen Walker. These are amazing kids. Then Carter comes up and it's. Guy can play and he was tough. So I think there's some stuff about, you know, is this the all world guy? But I'll tell you what, Charles Haley wasn't the all world guy and he won five championships.

• 1:43:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, listen, if you're a great edge rusher, you gotta be a little selfish.

• 1:43:22Speaker 02

  And at that position, like it is what it is.

• 1:43:25Bill Simmons?

  You're not gonna be a team guy. You're just trying to get the quarterback. That's it.

• 1:43:28Speaker 02

  The Giants passed on Micah Parsons a few years ago. They traded back and they ended up getting Kadarius Tony and they got a additional pick the following year.

• 1:43:37Bill Simmons?

  An all-timer.

• 1:43:38Speaker 02

  It's an all-timer and it's really the original sin of this generation of the Giants. Um, that and the Daniel Jones contract extension. If they were to pass on a guy who legitimately, not because they were the same number and not because they went to the same college is compared to Micah Parsons, the way they used to at Penn State, the way he went into his coaches. Office, um, you know, that final year and he looked at James Franklin and said, I don't want to just be this. Make me a guy who plays off the ball. Let me do all these things and then did it at a higher level than Parsons in college. Like it would be an incredible, incredible mistake made twice, at least in my eyes. I don't think you pass on him, even if you have all these different pass rushers already. That said, there is the injury stuff, didn't compete at the combine,

• 1:44:21Speaker 02

  didn't do it the pro day. So if you want to make that a red flag, fine. And then off the field, it's not like, you know, this guy is necessarily marrying your daughter. That's what they say. Now, none of that is criminal. None of that is this, but that's just the word around the street is that he's not the, the same type of, wow, you want to wrap your arms around him and give him a big old hug like Travis Hunter.

• 1:44:38Bill Simmons?

  It makes me like him more.

• 1:44:40Speaker 02

  I know. That's my pass rusher. I don't need him to be trading jerseys after the game. I'm good.

• 1:44:44Bill Simmons?

  All right. So you be the Giants and I'll be, I'll be Vrabel. Who's, who's taking the phone call for the Giants for a trade?

• 1:44:50Speaker 02

  Joe Shane.

• 1:44:51Bill Simmons?

  Okay. You be Joe Shane. I'll be Vrabel.

• 1:44:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:44:54Bill Simmons?

  Joe, how are you?

• 1:44:55Speaker 02

  Hey, what's up, Mike?

• 1:44:56Bill Simmons?

  You know what you're doing at three yet?

• 1:44:58Speaker 02

  You know, we still don't know. Um, the truth is I'll let you know when we do, but we're, we're leaning towards Carter, but, uh, the door is still open. What do you got?

• 1:45:07Bill Simmons?

  I have an idea. We can flip picks three to four.

• 1:45:14Bill Simmons?

  I'll give you my second next year and I'll give you my fourth next year and you just move back one spot. That's my offer. And also I'm willing to talk about it a little bit.

• 1:45:25Speaker 02

  Who am I taking at four? If that's the case, am I, am I, what is your, what are you implying?

• 1:45:30Bill Simmons?

  It's, I just, if you like Sanders, why do I have to take him at three? Take him at four and get some stuff back.

• 1:45:37Speaker 02

  Interesting. So this is, this is what the Niners and Bears did a few years ago. I'm still playing Joe Shane, just giving a history lesson, uh, for Trubisky. They said, okay, we'll move up one spot. We'll move back. We'll take Solomon Thomas, get a little extra. I, you know,

• 1:45:50Bill Simmons?

  What was the little extra for that? I can't remember for Trubisky. Wasn't that much, right? It was like a second?

• 1:45:54Speaker 02

  Wasn't that much. I believe it was a second round pick and the Niners were doing flips.

• 1:45:58Bill Simmons?

  What happens if you, Joe Shane, comes back and says, I'll flip spots with you, but I want your first next year and I'll give you my third.

• 1:46:07Speaker 02

  Mike, Mike, what happens if we do this? I will flip sauce to you, but I need next year's first. What would you say?

• 1:46:15Bill Simmons?

  Give me a third back and it's, it's a done deal.

• 1:46:18Speaker 02

  Okay, we've got, I think, the 104th pick. Is that, so you're saying the, I give you the third and the 104th, and I get next year's first, next year's second, and a fourth this year?

• 1:46:31Bill Simmons?

  You want my fourth this year too?

• 1:46:32Speaker 02

  Yes, I need another pick.

• 1:46:34Bill Simmons?

  Jesus.

• 1:46:37Bill Simmons?

  I gotta hang up. I gotta, I gotta talk to Kraft. I gotta talk to Kraft and yell at him for not taking week 18.

• 1:46:44Speaker 02

  And I gotta, I gotta hang up and go scream at Drew Lock for throwing for 200 yards against the Colts in week 16.

• 1:46:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, see, the Pats need so many things. They're probably better off just staying at four and taking Will Campbell. But if they think Carter is Michael Parsons and the price would be flipping picks with the Giants, I think the Pats are going to be good next year. I don't think they're going to be, win the Super Bowl, but I think they could go nine and eight, 10 and seven if they hit a couple picks.

• 1:47:15Speaker 02

  Roster's better, coach is better.

• 1:47:17Bill Simmons?

  If they, if they think they can get a left tackle who can start next year at the top of the second round, I think you have to think about trying to trade up a spot. And I can't believe they're in this position because Buffalo out-tanked them, which I'll never get over.

• 1:47:29Speaker 02

  No. Buffalo didn't, Buffalo didn't play. That was crazy, that Buffalo game. That was nuts.

• 1:47:35Bill Simmons?

  Buffalo was making the playoffs, somehow out-tanked us.

• 1:47:38Speaker 02

  Joe Milton just looking like Dan Marino out there.

• 1:47:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Mike, wait, just hand the ball off and the guy's going to fall down. I have some lingering questions.

• 1:47:48Bill Simmons?

  Last year, the shocker was Penix.

• 1:47:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:52Bill Simmons?

  If you had to handicap this, what is the Penix bomb of this year? What is the shocker?

• 1:48:00Speaker 02

  The guy's name is-

• 1:48:01Bill Simmons?

  Have one guess.

• 1:48:02Speaker 02

  Guy's name is Gray Zabel. Has that name come across your board at all?

• 1:48:06Bill Simmons?

  Not, I haven't done a lot of Gray Zabel work. What is that?

• 1:48:09Speaker 02

  Offensive guard at a North Dakota State. In the last 72 hours, I've gotten multiple calls from teams looking at my mock drafts. Here's how I do it. I've talked to people, I put together a mock draft and I send it to like all the teams. I'm like, what am I missing? Who am I missing? What are you hearing? And a lot of teams will tell me, we actually like this guy more than this guy. So just put him there if you want. I'll throw you a favor, throw you a bone on that. Or, where's this player? And unanimously, I'm getting, where is Gray Zabel in your top 20?

• 1:48:36Bill Simmons?

  In the first, in the top 20?

• 1:48:38Speaker 02

  Watch for Gray Zabel out of North Dakota State to suddenly be one of these guys who goes like 15, 17, 18, 19, even if it's early 20s. A player who at the Senior Bowl played well and then you didn't hear from him again. And he's an offensive guard, but he's looked at as like one of these mallers and in a draft full of just meh, he is one of these guys that they think the sky could be the limit. So that is my wild card.

• 1:49:02Bill Simmons?

  Put the pads on with a mitt?

• 1:49:03Speaker 02

  Vrabel might want to wrestle with the.

• 1:49:05Bill Simmons?

  Put him in a headlock, see what he's like. So you have your mock draft coming on Wednesday?

• 1:49:11Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:49:11Bill Simmons?

  And this has been a mock draft that has been a very successful by mock draft standards. So you send, you'll send like little?

• 1:49:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:49:21Bill Simmons?

  You'll send spots to teams and do who's missing?

• 1:49:24Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:49:26Speaker 02

  Looking at my phone already. It's, I sent to Howie Roseman this morning, Adam Peters this morning with Washington, John Spytek at the Raiders, and some of them won't respond. Or someone will say, we actually like Membo more than this guy. Or they'll say, hey, why do you have, why do you have Mikel, why do you have Will Johnson from Michigan going in the mid 20s as opposed to like top 15? What are you hearing? And then in exchange, it's, hey, you're missing Gray Zabel. Or what about the Oregon tackle?

• 1:49:54Bill Simmons?

  Gray Zabel almost seems like a fake name.

• 1:49:57Speaker 02

  Gray Zabel. I'm gonna get the jersey for you.

• 1:50:01Bill Simmons?

  It's like, yeah, there's this new HBO show with starring Gray Zabel. Have you seen it? I have one, one draft take about a top 10 guy.

• 1:50:11Speaker 02

  Let me hear.

• 1:50:12Bill Simmons?

  Now granted, I parachute in and I barely watched the college season.

• 1:50:14Speaker 02

  You're good, dude. You're good. You love this shit.

• 1:50:16Bill Simmons?

  Pretty good about.

• 1:50:17Speaker 02

  You're good.

• 1:50:18Bill Simmons?

  Whatever. I've had some good moments over the years.

• 1:50:21Bill Simmons?

  Tet, Tet scares me.

• 1:50:24Speaker 02

  You're not alone.

• 1:50:26Bill Simmons?

  Here, here's why, because the Pats who have done the worst job ever of drafting receivers since forever. And here's where I've landed with receivers. And it sounds stupid, but it's really not. I just want guys who are, are open. When I'm watching the clips, the guys are wide open. I want speed and I want the ability to get open. These guys, he's a big guy. He's unbelievable. Catches in traffic. Nobody uses his body. I would just rather not take a chance on those guys. We've had those guys. Like we had the Nikhil Harry. I don't, I think when you get to the pros and everybody's more covered than they were in college and guys are just have people draped around them all the time. I just think it's

• 1:51:06Bill Simmons?

  harder to succeed. I just want speed. Like the Chiefs don't do this. The Chiefs are like, let's get Xavier Worthy. He's fast.

• 1:51:14Speaker 02

  That's his guy.

• 1:51:14Bill Simmons?

  Guess what? We'll run plays for him and he'll just be open and then our quarterback will throw him the ball. Lad McConkey was another one. It's like, ah, what is he? It's like, I don't know. He's always open. That seems positive. I just, I, I wouldn't, what, now if you were in the teens, it's different. But if you're talking about like Jacksonville of five, and it's a guy who's, his biggest skill is how good he is in traffic and how physical he is. It just makes me nervous.

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  Let me give you the Tet McMillan stuff because I was early in on Tet saying he's going to be top five. And then I've walked it back a little bit.

• 1:51:45Bill Simmons?

  Nate Theis loves him, by the way.

• 1:51:47Speaker 02

  He should. The good, the good is so good. This guy's film, you pick 10 plays from Tet McMillan, let's look at Calvin Johnson.

• 1:51:56Bill Simmons?

  Danny Kelly has him fourth.

• 1:51:57Speaker 02

  Dude, he's amazing. He takes plays off. His motor isn't always going. And in this past season, it was a significant difference in his consistency than the year before. Now the year before, Arizona was coached by Jed Fish. They had an offense that was humming. They were a top 10 team at one point and this guy was engaged. Last year, they took a dip. They had a new coaching staff. It wasn't as good. That said, six foot four.

• 1:52:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I get it.

• 1:52:28Speaker 02

  Fast, dominant hands and like teams that met with him.

• 1:52:32Bill Simmons?

  Physical.

• 1:52:33Speaker 02

  He's a different cat. Now, he's from Hawaii and he comes in and something that rubbed people wrong was like, I'm a volleyball player first, football player second, something of that. Like I love volleyball. Now, football guys see that and they like bang their head through glass and they, oh.

• 1:52:50Speaker 02

  A coach who's more evolved says, all right, he's got volleyball skills and we will coach him up and we will get the most out of him. Now, the ceiling is Mike Evans. The basement or the floor could be-

• 1:53:03Bill Simmons?

  The ceiling is Mike Evans, who's had one of the best wide receiver careers, start to finish, of anyone in the last 30 years.

• 1:53:09Speaker 02

  He's got the same body type and a better college career than Mike Evans had. So, you're looking at that. And in a wide receiver draft, that is putrid, putrid. I mean, last year, we had Neighbors, Adunze, Harrison.

• 1:53:25Bill Simmons?

  That's why I'd be scared about him, because this is what happens with the draft. When you're in this cluster and you're way better than everyone else in the cluster, but it's a bad cluster. This is the same thing with the quarterbacks.

• 1:53:35Speaker 02

  No doubt.

• 1:53:36Bill Simmons?

  Jackson Dart wouldn't have gotten drafted in the first 45 picks last year.

• 1:53:40Speaker 02

  Might not have. But McMillan, what I like, though, is that like the evolved coaches who I've spoken to, they didn't just shut it down. It's not that he doesn't love football. It's that this kid is different and he's got other interests, but gosh, when he's on the football field, he turns it on. So, I don't know if it could be your first pick as a GM or your first pick as a head coach, but if you're secure in your spot and you're looking at this draft and it's a bunch of mid, this guy is the, the sky is the limit prospect as far as skill position goes.

• 1:54:12Bill Simmons?

  It feels very Dallas Cowboys-y at number 12 to me.

• 1:54:16Speaker 02

  Got the same type of body type as C.D. Lamb, though.

• 1:54:19Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm just saying like, ah, now look at Dak and these two, this is the Eagles blueprint.

• 1:54:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. I have him going currently 19 to Tampa, which is crazy because a week ago, I had him going either four or five.

• 1:54:33Bill Simmons?

  I think he goes in the teens. So, I want to talk about the Niners at 11.

• 1:54:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:39Bill Simmons?

  Sal and I did guess the lines, over/unders for the first time ever this year.

• 1:54:43Speaker 02

  I heard.

• 1:54:44Bill Simmons?

  And I was four and a half, I was four wins off on the Niners. I thought it was going to be six and a half. It was 10 and a half. It's still 10 and a half on Fandel, even though there's a bunch of action. There's minus 130 under. And there's reasons for it, the schedule, the divisions they play, they have fourth place schedule, all that stuff. And yet, I'm looking at the Niners at 11. Do they think they're good? If they do think they're good, are they going to get aggressive? Are they going to try to move up? Um, will they try to move back? They feel like a pivot team to me. The Bears are staying at 10 and they're going to take a weapon, I think.

• 1:55:19Speaker 02

  I think the Bears, I think the Bears are interesting because they, they lead to the Niners. The Bears at 10, like if Colston Loveland is sitting there, the tight end.

• 1:55:28Bill Simmons?

  A riser.

• 1:55:29Speaker 02

  That's really interesting for the Bears. You add another weapon to them. I could see the Bears taking offensive line, going, going with the big kid out of, uh, out of the Alabama, the Booker or the Kelvin, um, I'm losing his name, Texas, the offensive towel. Yeah. The Niners, their defense was atrocious last year and that's been a long.

• 1:55:54Bill Simmons?

  They just lost a bunch of dudes.

• 1:55:55Speaker 02

  They did, and that's long been their pride of their team up front. So, you know, you look at the big kid, McHale Williams out of, out of Georgia. That's a possibility there. Or you look at defensive back and there's, you know, Hunter, but then this kid Baron out of Texas, who won all the awards is a superb talent too. And is it like, to your point, the economics of it? If we get a number one corner and he's sitting there at 11, like we could put that pick in and we're good and we're building. Or are you trying to swing the bat and try to do something major, move up and get one of these star players and try to stay in the conversation for the end of the season?

• 1:56:30Bill Simmons?

  Try to get all the way up to three for Carter. See, I, I think Mason Graham is the guy who could potentially fall five, six spots.

• 1:56:38Speaker 02

  He might.

• 1:56:38Bill Simmons?

  The, the, you know, awesome middle of the line guy. There was a moment where I would have been psyched if the Pats took him, but then they signed Williams. So it makes no sense.

• 1:56:46Speaker 02

  Look, he's a three tech, he's a three technique player. He's got an incredible motor. Everyone likes him, but his body type is not, you're not going to sit in a room with Mason Graham and think he's Aaron Donald. So there's questions like what's the, what's the skies a little bit of this guy? Or have we seen the best of them?

• 1:57:00Bill Simmons?

  Also, it's a pretty deep position.

• 1:57:01Speaker 02

  Can I give you a good, I can do a good Sala note?

• 1:57:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Oh, Sala.

• 1:57:07Speaker 02

  Sala's the new defensive coordinator of the Niners. I have to share this with you. I don't think anyone's reported this and I don't think you and Sala discussed it. Sala and his wife had another kid this off season.

• 1:57:22Bill Simmons?

  So what's that eight?

• 1:57:23Speaker 02

  Eight.

• 1:57:25Bill Simmons?

  This is like, how does he not have a reality show?

• 1:57:28Speaker 02

  And his wife is the best.

• 1:57:31Bill Simmons?

  Eight kids.

• 1:57:32Speaker 02

  This is it. Eight kids quietly in the offseason. Sala, another kid. I'm like, God bless him. I love that man.

• 1:57:40Bill Simmons?

  His new child, Aaron Rodgers Sala.

• 1:57:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the Niners to me, major wild card. Miami, a team that kind of needs everything and is being held hostage by whatever the hell is going on with Tyra Kill. Another question for you.

• 1:57:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:58Bill Simmons?

  Do the Rams just draft a QB?

• 1:58:00Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:58:01Bill Simmons?

  Weird. Yeah, because they think they can win the Super Bowl. They're drafting somebody that can help them, right?

• 1:58:06Speaker 02

  Or trade back. Classic, let's need trade back. Like, let's just collect a lot.

• 1:58:12Bill Simmons?

  We hear about the teams that second round is like, we'll trade up and get our quarterback.

• 1:58:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, perfect spot. If there's a player that can help them. I mean, I, last year I came on your podcast, I'm like, there's no way McVay, this first first round pick isn't taking offense. And then he took Jared verse and I looked like an idiot. But the truth of the matter is they wanted Brock, they wanted Brock Bowers and they were looking to get trade up. If a Loveland was to drop to them, if a Buca was to drop to them, I think they would consider it. But like, I don't think the Rams are looking to stay put at 26 unless there's a player that falls precipitously to them.

• 1:58:47Bill Simmons?

  All right, here's my big prediction. It's not even a crazy prediction because I think it's in the ether and.

• 1:58:53Speaker 02

  By the way, Bill, I would say Seattle is a more likely in the NFC West quarterback team to trade back into the first round or early second than the Rams.

• 1:59:02Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:59:05Bill Simmons?

  I think Cousins ends up on the Steelers.

• 1:59:08Speaker 02

  Go on.

• 1:59:09Bill Simmons?

  It's been, it's been floated out there. There's been scenarios. There's a couple of things that don't add up. And you read some of the intel from people like Schefter, where the Falcons are like, yeah, we trade him, but you gotta pay some of his salary. And teams are like, well, we'll pay 10. It's like, no, it's gotta be 20. The Falcons have no leverage at all. What are they gonna do? They're gonna, they're gonna pay Kirk Cousins a gazillion dollars to be their backup? They have to trade him. They have to trade him this week and they have to trade him to a team that is gonna start to freak out that they don't have a quarterback yet, which is basically the Pittsburgh Steelers. So if the Steelers can be like, fine, we'll pay 11 million or 12 million, whatever, like the Falcons,

• 1:59:54Bill Simmons?

  this is a sunk cost. Any money they can get back to dump his contract, they've gotta do it. You can't keep him. Like, they probably feel like they're gonna be pretty good. They're in a crappy division. Like, who knows? So I just think he ends up on the Steelers and I don't think the Sanders thing is as important for them. Where everybody has them taking Sanders. If they, if, if, I feel like they could pass on him at 21, maybe get him in the second round and still get Cousins. I, by the way, think Cousins is washed and I think it's a mistake.

• 2:00:26Speaker 02

  That's the thing. I mean, he played hard at the end there, but if you watched that Monday night game, Raiders versus Falcons, when Kirk Cousins could not throw a football, his shoulder was messed up. We learned about it afterwards, but like, he probably was on the field for two extra weeks that Atlanta should have had him on. They lost those games and it cost them in the end. Um, I thought Cleveland, and then they signed Joe Flacco. So cross Cleveland off. I thought the Giants were a bust.

• 2:00:51Bill Simmons?

  You'd rather pay Joe Flacco 4 million than Kirk Cousins 10.

• 2:00:55Speaker 02

  Joe Flacco.

• 2:00:56Bill Simmons?

  For Kirk Cousins.

• 2:00:57Speaker 02

  Who's been there. And I know the connection there was Stefanski and Cousins have a great relationship, but that's such a big price tag. And then you're kind of setting yourself back as a franchise. With Flacco, you get the one year and you see, and then you go from there. Um, I haven't done the work on Pittsburgh. I'll be honest with you. I'm trying to think of the different connections. Have Arthur Smith worked with Cousins? No, they didn't overlap in Atlanta. Uh, it just, to me, it's, they, it's such a shocker to me that they put themselves in this corner with Rogers of all the franchises, with the place that they're at.

• 2:01:27Bill Simmons?

  More done than Cousins.

• 2:01:29Speaker 02

  But also just with the veterans on the lot, in the locker room, with like Kim Hayward and TJ Watt and Minka Fitzpatrick and guys that are like known made men and were sitting around waiting for Aaron Rodgers. It's a shock and I, I gotta think that if they were to do this all over again, they didn't put up much of a fight to bring back Justin Fields. The Jets got him for two years, 20 million apiece, whatever. And then they did not put up any fight to get Russell Wilson back. Cousins would be one of those deals where like, gosh, this all went awry and when and like, I guess we'll get Cousins with like a shrug, but.

• 2:02:07Bill Simmons?

  Well, you're getting like a better locker room fit than Rogers. At least you're getting a guy that everybody loves being a teammate of.

• 2:02:15Speaker 02

  No doubt, but can he still play and the price tag is going to be big. I mean, I think Atlanta is going to pick up most of it, but.

• 2:02:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, can we agree it's kind of dumbfounding that they've had no solution and it's, it's past mid April now? They have no quarterback.

• 2:02:32Speaker 02

  I'll tell you this from the Giants side. To Rogers' credit, and you can say, screw that. He looked at, at these teams and said, guys, I'm on my own timeline. If you need to pivot and make a move, there is no hard feelings. I am telling you straight up, I do not know when and if I'm coming back. And that is on you to do it. And Giants heard that Giants waited a couple of weeks and they were like, all right, we gotta act and they did it and they got Russell Wilson and Jameis. Steelers were like, all right, and they still haven't made a move.

• 2:03:05Bill Simmons?

  It's ridiculous. Um, okay. I think we hit everything except Kyle Brandt, some hurtful comments on the last rewatchables.

• 2:03:16Speaker 02

  I didn't listen. I'm sorry. There was no interest in redoing. I had no interest in reliving the saint, you guys. I mean, this is.

• 2:03:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm giving you a, yeah, I'm giving you a platform. I, I, how are you guys doing?

• 2:03:28Speaker 02

  Kyle and I are good.

• 2:03:29Bill Simmons?

  You guys are like a married couple.

• 2:03:30Speaker 02

  It's sad. It's sad.

• 2:03:32Bill Simmons?

  How many years was it?

• 2:03:34Speaker 02

  It was a divorce that he had nothing to do with. That's the thing.

• 2:03:36Bill Simmons?

  It wasn't even a divorce. It was like, I don't know what it was.

• 2:03:40Speaker 02

  I was, I fell out of love. It was it. It was it. I couldn't be on Good Morning Football. I couldn't be on Good Morning Football another day. I'd given it my all. So I'm on to another lover and it's.

• 2:03:51Bill Simmons?

  Well, you know, it's going to have to happen. The three of us are going to have to do rewatchables is how it's going to have to play out.

• 2:03:56Speaker 02

  You already did Blue Chips.

• 2:03:57Bill Simmons?

  Reunion ending.

• 2:03:58Speaker 02

  I could have done every word of Blue Chips. He did Blue Chips already. I could have done that one.

• 2:04:02Bill Simmons?

  We're going to have to figure out a rewatchables for the three of us.

• 2:04:05Speaker 02

  I would love that. And, and, and if it's Steven Seagal, Jean-Claude Van Damme, count me out, but we can find a different niche for me. I know Kyle has his real house.

• 2:04:13Bill Simmons?

  What's your movie niche?

• 2:04:15Speaker 02

  Um, I'm, I'm an art house theater guy, you know, Snyder House rules. Um, now.

• 2:04:22Bill Simmons?

  Art house theater guy.

• 2:04:26Speaker 02

  Black box theater we want to talk about.

• 2:04:28Bill Simmons?

  Was there hazing stuff at ESPN when you came in as the new guy? Did anybody just like not talk to you for a week and shit like that?

• 2:04:36Speaker 02

  It's crazy. They put me in a room and just made me watch Lakers, Cowboys, Yankee highlights. It was nuts. This is all you're allowed to talk about. This is it.

• 2:04:43Bill Simmons?

  It's like Minority Report.

• 2:04:48Bill Simmons?

  Now, we're all happy for you.

• 2:04:51Speaker 02

  I love you for it. I appreciate you. You are, as you know, a huge sounding board. And I'll tell you this, as long as the years I was on Fox and as long as I was on Good Morning Football, all anyone is asking me is, are you still allowed to come on Simmons's podcast? And hopefully.

• 2:05:06Bill Simmons?

  That's nice.

• 2:05:07Speaker 02

  Hopefully I can. I love working with you and I love being a part of your world.

• 2:05:12Bill Simmons?

  All right. Well, it's great to see you. Safe travels to Green Bay. Good luck with the Knicks. I'll be interested to see if we hit any of this stuff. And if Rabel is at the draft and wants to put the pads on and try to like get you in some wrestling moves, like just be ready for it. You might want to feel your body best.

• 2:05:29Speaker 02

  I know. If you're in New York for any of these Knicks games, we have to get together and go to.

• 2:05:35Bill Simmons?

  All right, Shriggs, great to see you. Thank you.

• 2:05:37Speaker 02

  All right. You're the man. Thanks, dude.

• 2:05:39Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Zach and Shriggs. Thanks to Gahal and Sir Rudy as well. And don't forget, I have a new podcast coming on Thursday. Don't forget to catch up on Celtic City on Max, episode eight, KG Era. It's an awesome one. So if you missed it, try to, I know there's a lot of basketball games on right now, but try to squeeze that in. And then new rewatchables, Minority Report. You can go check that out. It's a video podcast on Spotify or on our Ringer Movies YouTube channel. Don't forget to subscribe to my channel, the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And I will see you on Thursday. NBA playoffs and the draft, it's going to be hectic, but I will see you then.

• 2:06:38Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy

• 2:07:21Bill Simmons?

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• 2:08:06Bill Simmons?

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