The Truth About Microplastics - Dr Rhonda Patrick

Dr Rhonda Patrick is a biomedical scientist, researcher and a fitness podcaster. Every day, your body fends off harmful pathogens with ease. But what happens when environmental toxins like microplastics start to build up? What are they, and how can you protect yourself from their effects? Expect to learn why microplastics are so prevalent in our everyday lives, how to detoxify yourself from microplastics, which everyday items expose us most to microplastics, where microplastics are stored in your body, the impact on your health being bombarded by microplastics, why your clothes might be one of the biggest offenders of toxic plastic exposure, the best exercises and routines that help you remove microplastics from your system, how to offset your exposure to toxins in your food and environments, and much more… - 00:00 What You Need to Know About Microplastics 05:27 What Levels of Microplastics Are We Exposed To? 10:31 Where Do Plastics Go in the Body? 14:39 Different Types of Plastics 24:14 Sex Differences in Susceptibility 28:10 Most Common Places We’re Exposed to Microplastics 38:30 Are We Absorbing Microplastics From Our Clothes? 42:24 Is it Possible to Have Plastic-Free Food? 50:18 Best Tactics for Avoiding Microplastics 59:22 Is it Possible to Test & Remove Microplastics? 1:10:04 Advice to People Impacted By the LA Fires 1:15:54 Impact of the GRAS System on American Food 1:25:02 The Danger of Trans Fats 1:28:54 Nitrites & Nitrates 1:31:21 Should We Be Concerned About Added Sugar? 1:37:07 The Main Issues With Ultra-Processed Food 1:43:52 Do Sugar & Ultra-Processed Foods Cause Cancer? 1:47:21 How Sugar & Ultra-Processed Foods Impact Brain & Energy 1:53:57 How to Rebuild a Leaky Gut 1:56:57 Mitigating the Risks of Ultra-Processed Foods 2:08:03 What’s Next for Rhonda 2:11:40 Where to Find Rhonda - Get the best bloodwork analysis in America at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get a 20% discount on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom - Get Rhonda’s free guide—“How to Train According to the Experts”—at https://howtotrainguide.com/ Subscribe to Rhonda’s YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/@UCWF8SqJVNlx-ctXbLswcTcA - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  What have you been interested in recently? You're always learning new stuff.

• 0:02Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah, I think most recently I've had a real interest in ultra-processed foods, in plastic, microplastics, their associated chemicals, what they're doing to human health. That's been my latest obsession.

• 0:17Chris Williamson?

  Okay, microplastics. Teach me about them. What are they? What do they do?

• 0:23Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So, microplastics, I mean, we're all familiar with plastic, you know? If you take a look in your refrigerator or your pantry, I mean, almost everything is packaged in some kind of plastic container. Plastic breaks down over time, right? So, things that can accelerate that breakdown would be like heat, exposure to oxygen. And so, that breakdown sheds plastic particles into whatever is being contained in that plastic container, food, beverages, whatever. So, microplastics, they sort of vary in size, anywhere between five, so five microns or micromillimeters to 100 nanometers in size.

• 1:06Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  And when they're like five micromillimeters, that's like something that would be equivalent to a size of like a grain of rice, you can see it. When you get down to the 100 nanometer range, I mean, that's like a thousand times smaller than a grain of rice, so you're not going to see it, right? And that's, honestly, those are actually technically nanoplastics, but we all just kind of call them microplastics just for simplicity. And these microplastics are getting into food as we consume whatever food they're contained in, whether it's a beverage or, you know, disposable food. You're digesting it and they can be absorbed, right? Now, not all of them are absorbed.

• 1:47Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I think, you know, it's, there's some studies saying that we basically consume anywhere between, you know, hundreds to thousands of particles a day.

• 1:58Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So how much of that we absorb? Not all of it, you know, fraction of it. But it's a lot of particles that we're absorbing every day. And, um, you know, the, these microplastics are in our water. So water is contaminated with them. If you think about water treatment plants, you know, wastewater treatment plants are treating the water for pathogens. Right? Viruses, bacteria. They're not treating them for plastics that are getting into the water. And our water sources are contaminated for a variety of reasons. Not to mention if you, if you're, you know, turning on your faucet and getting water through the sink. Oftentimes the water is transported through these pipes that are made of, you know, PVC, which breaks down.

• 2:43Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  The, you know, there's plastic in that and it breaks down over time and sheds microplastic into your water. So water is another source. Of course, if you're drinking bottled water out of plastic bottles, that's another added source of microplastics as well. And so, um, microplastics themselves are, um, there's a growing body of evidence in terms of what they're doing to human health. And we can talk about that. But there's also chemicals that are associated with them. Right?

• 3:10Chris Williamson?

  How, like, just how prevalent are these things? Like, how difficult is it to avoid microplastics?

• 3:16Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It's impossible to avoid. I mean, the fact that it's in our water source is kind of indicative of that. Unfortunately, it's not just in our water, but it's in our soil. So plants are taking that up. It's, it's in.

• 3:32Chris Williamson?

  How's it getting into the soil?

• 3:34Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Because it's, it's essentially, you know, runoff from, you know, rain and stuff. It's in, microplastics and, and plastic chemicals are everywhere. So they're in the air. And so when rain, you know.

• 3:48Chris Williamson?

  So they're so small that they can go up with precipitation?

• 3:51Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  They're, they're in the air because, um, the, the, the main source from the air is actually our clothing. So our clothing, polyester, nylon, like the stuff that I'm wearing for sure. I'm not wearing a hundred percent cotton. Uh, when you wash it, it gets, you know, into the oceans. When you dry your clothes, the dryer is, you know,

• 4:10Chris Williamson?

  Killing me. The dryer is atomizing your microplastics and pushing them into the atmosphere.

• 4:14Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Into the air. And tires are a big source. So tires aren't 100% made of rubber. They're rubber and a bunch of plastic, you know, stuff. And so cars on the road, shoes on our, you know, the rubber shoe, um, soles on our shoes. All that stuff has plastic and all that stuff is getting into the air. So the major source of microplastics are oral ingestion, which we talked about, and then inhalation. That's how they're getting into our bodies. So when it rains, that stuff, you know, it, the, the rain brings the microplastics into our runoff. Right. And that then gets into the soil. It gets into our, our sludge. You know, this is like fertilizer that's used. So it's, it's pretty much ubiquitous. It's everywhere. You're, you're not going to avoid it.

• 4:58Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Not to mention, I mean, I guess even if you were to try and not consume any condiments or foods or anything like that made out of plastic, you're going to do a huge service. You're going to reduce greatly reduce the amount of microplastics you're consuming. Let's say you have air filters, you're trying to filter the air, but you're not going to filter it everywhere you go. Right. You're in your car, you're walking around on the street, especially if you live in a metropolitan urban area. It's very, very difficult to eliminate microplastics.

• 5:26Chris Williamson?

  What's the sort of levels that we get exposed to? How much does that get down into being absorbed? Because the earth's a big place. It feels to me like the atmosphere has got loads of room in it. I don't know how much of the air that we get exposed to, even in downtown New York, is going to be filled with microplastics. I wouldn't, I'm going to guess that there's on the triage list of stuff to worry about. There's probably other stuff up there, carbon monoxide, high levels of carbon dioxide, stuff like that, that might be a problem. But yeah, like in terms of how we get exposed and what are the sort of levels that we get exposed to, what do we absorb?

• 5:58Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So it does depend on, of course, your lifestyle. So it depends on what you're eating. You know, what you're consuming, where you live, how polluted it is, right? Like that's, that's, that's a, obviously if you have air filters in your home, which is a big one. If you're dryer, you don't want your dryer to ventilate in, inside of your home. That would be like a huge source of microplastics that are concentrated inside your house. So you want it to ventilate, of course, outside, of course, but then that contributes to the microplastics in the environment, right? Which ultimately makes its way back into. Our food and our, you know, the air we breathe outside. But, you know, there's a lot of studies trying to quantify how much microplastics that we are

• 6:40Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  taking in daily. And there's been a variety of studies and some of them have said, well, there's a credit card of plastic a day that we consume. And that was a very, I would say, sensational headline that was, it was published in a peer reviewed study. But it turns out, when you're trying to really quantify the gram weight of a microplastics is very challenging because they vary in size. I mentioned five micrometers to like 100 nanometer in size. And so it depends on what your, what your source of microplastics are when you're trying to quantify that. And so a lot of studies that have looked at some of these, you know, in gram weight, how much are we consuming, used to microplastics that are found in the oceans. So in the oceans, a lot of that's

• 7:21Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  coming from our clothing runoff from our, from our washer, washing our clothes. And it's not necessarily the same size particles that we're consuming if we're drinking water from a tap or we're eating, you know, or we're, we're drinking water out of a bottled, you know, bottled water with made of plastic. So it's not really a credit card in plastic that that really isn't, I would say, accurate. Again, it comes down to, you know, it could be thousands of particles a day. Absorbing wise, there've been studies in animals, okay, not humans, that showed that animals absorb up to 2.5% of those particles. There are

• 7:58Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  a variety of factors that actually can help you blunt that absorption. So microplastics, really the, the major one is size. So as you get smaller in size, like nanoplastics, those can be more readily absorbed through your intestinal cells because of the size. It's really easy for them to kind of pass the, the membrane of your cell.

• 8:22Chris Williamson?

  I'm going to guess that if you've got a leaky gut of some kind, or you've got a more permeable gut wall, is that a risk factor for this?

• 8:28Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It is. Yeah. Presumably. I mean, there's not a ton of evidence on that, but it makes sense. You know, the, the question is, you know, I mentioned heat. Breaking down the microplastics. Well, heat can break them down into nanoplastic size. So you don't want to microwave any food in plastic. You don't want to cook with any plastic utensils and you don't want to drink out of something that's going to have a hot beverage poured into it because that's going to rapidly accelerate the breakdown into smaller particles. So for example, a lot of to-go coffee cups are lined with plastic to prevent the leaching of the beverage into the cup, the paper cup. And so when you

• 9:10Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  pour hot water into that, you can rapidly break down those plastics into small size as well as chemicals.

• 9:17Chris Williamson?

  So you think maybe up to 2.5% of what we consume per day, we might absorb?

• 9:21Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Well, that's from animal studies. So who knows? Something like in that range. But the other thing that's really interesting that actually can affect the way you absorb these microplastics is, believe it or not, dietary fiber. Because, so there's two types of fiber. There's fermentable fiber. You know, this is what the bacteria in the distal part of your gut, this is the colon, they're fermenting into a bunch of short-chain fatty acids to regulate your immune system and do all sorts of beneficial things for your gut. Then there's also non-fermentable fiber. This just moves stuff through your intestines, right? Well, the fermentable fiber, which is found in fruits and vegetables, that is

• 10:01Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  fermented into like this viscous gel that encapsulates microplastics and nanoplastics and stops them from being absorbed. The non-fermentable fiber, just like the stuff that moves, you know, foods through your intestines, also just moves the microplastics as well. So you're going to be excreting it through feces more rapidly. So those two, those are two ways that fiber actually is beneficial for basically inhibiting the absorption of microplastics and nanoplastics.

• 10:31Chris Williamson?

  Where do plastics go in the body? Is that, do they congeal in certain places?

• 10:37Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Uh, yeah. So there's been, again, this is like an emerging field. There's a lot more evidence on the chemicals associated with plastics, which we can talk about. But there's been a variety of studies, actually, a lot of them coming out in 2024 last year, some new ones coming out this year, showing that microplastics seem to accumulate in the brain 10 to 20 times more than other organs. And this was a study out of Sao Paulo, Brazil, where there's moderate air pollution. I mean, it's not like Mexico City, but it, you know, there is, there's a significant amount of air pollution there. And I mention air pollution

• 11:16Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  because you would think, well, why are microplastics accumulating 10 to 20 times more rapidly in the brain than other organs? They've been found in the heart, they've been found in the liver and the kidneys and the lungs. Of course, you're breathing it in, in the, in the testes, reproductive organs, everywhere, placenta. But why are they accumulating so, you know, heavily in the brain? And it's not really known. It hasn't really been investigated, but I think it has to do with the fact that we're breathing in these particles in addition to consuming them orally from our foods and beverages and things like that. Because, I mentioned, microplastics are in the air, right? They're in the air. We are breathing them in. They get into our lungs. But, so the blood-brain barrier is supposed to protect

• 12:00Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  chemicals from getting into the brain. And you would think, well, if anything-

• 12:04Chris Williamson?

  Do your job.

• 12:04Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah. You'd think it'd be like less microplastics in the brain than in the lungs, right? And also, particle size plays a role. So again, particle size, if you have a nanoplastic, it can more readily traverse across the blood-brain barrier because it's smaller in size, similar to what's happening in the gut. But when you breathe in something, it's a direct route to the brain. So it bypasses the blood-brain barrier. And, and this is because your olfactory neurons, when you, when you smell something, there's a direct connection to the central nervous system. And this is why a lot of drugs that are administered intranasally are done so because they are trying to bypass the blood-brain barrier. So I think what's happening is you're getting a combination of both oral consumption and

• 12:47Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  you're getting the nanoplastics, you know, in circulation. Because once these things get into circulation- There's really no point of, it's kind of beyond the point of return, right? They're going to organs and they're accumulating there. Like, I don't know how they're going to get out of the organs once they're there. You know, this isn't something that we're excreting unless it's at the level of the intestines when we're eating it, consuming it, then, like I mentioned, if the fiber is there, you're excreting it. But once it gets into circulation, it's going to organs. So I think the combination of, you know, the breathing it in and eating it is why you're getting it in the brain 10 to 20 times more. And here's why that's a problem.

• 13:26Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Because in that same study, they looked postmortem at people that had dementia, like Alzheimer's disease. And those individuals that had dementia and Alzheimer's disease had 10 times more microplastics in their brains than people that did not have dementia and Alzheimer's disease. 10 times more. So of course, this is a correlation. You can't necessarily say this is causing it, right? Microplastics are causing Alzheimer's disease. But there are animal studies that have shown that microplastics in the brain can cause inflammation, chronic inflammation. And we do know that plays a big role in brain aging, dementia and Alzheimer's disease.

• 14:06Chris Williamson?

  I wonder if you would be able to run a study where you had people who, for one reason or another, were breathing in cleaner air compared, but were still eating the same sort of diet compared with people eating the same sort of diet, but breathing in less clean air. So people that maybe lived out in the countryside, but were still eating food that was wrapped in plastic. So you have that, which is the systemic through the mouth one. But then you also have the sniffing a line of plastic from your daily breathing equivalent that's coming from the people that live in cosmopolitan metropolitan cities, something like that. That'd be really interesting to try and split that out. I guess, well, you mentioned before the sort of types of plastics that we're talking about. I've heard about, what have I heard about? BPAs, heard about those? What else? Are we worried about BPAs anymore? Or is that like?

• 14:49Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yes, yeah. Okay, so the bisphenol A is a chemical that is put into plastic. It's, you know, it's a chemical that's, that's. It helps with durability, robustness, flexibility, right? So those chemicals would be bisphenol A, BPA. Phthalates are another one. Then there's BPS, which is the replacement for BPA. So you'll often hear BPA free.

• 15:16Chris Williamson?

  It's just got BPF or BPS in instead.

• 15:17Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It's got BPS.

• 15:18Chris Williamson?

  It's the delta eight equivalent of getting around the weed law. It's like, ah, this isn't cannabis. This is delta eight. You go, well, I mean, functionally, it does the same thing, but you've just changed some molecule. That means that legally it's not an issue.

• 15:30Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly. It's essentially a good marketing strategy because people. I know I have many friends that thought BPA free was like, oh, this is healthy. But you have to realize, no, they're still plastic. Like you can put hot water into a BPA free mug that has plastic in it. And you're still going to get microplastics and you're still going to have the other chemicals like BPS. So these chemicals are called endocrine disrupting chemicals because they disrupt the endocrine system. And so BPA, BPS, you know, these are, these are chemicals that are often referred to as xenoestrogens because they mimic estrogen in the body and they bind to estrogen receptors.

• 16:13Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  They bind to androgen receptors and they can block the activity of them or they can enhance the activity depending on the dose of the chemical. And so that has a lot of effects on hormones. You know, I mean, so there's, there have been a variety of studies looking at how BPA, BPS. I mean, there's, there's fewer studies on BPS because it's newer, but it seems as though it's doing something very similar to BPA.

• 16:42Chris Williamson?

  What about BHT? I've heard about that.

• 16:45Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I don't know as much about BHT.

• 16:47Chris Williamson?

  I think this was the thing that Vani Hari.

• 16:52Chris Williamson?

  Popped Kellogg's for having on the inner lining of their America cereal bags. That they didn't have this particular B H T in the Canadian version. Saying they didn't have the red forty, they didn't have the blue three, they didn't have the yellow four. And they didn't have this particular type of plastic additive that was on the inside. Helps with preservation of the food, makes it last longer to something else. Maybe it's cheaper, I'm not too sure.

• 17:23Chris Williamson?

  So who are the big culprits? What are the big ones?

• 17:26Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  B P A is one of the biggest ones. B P S is now, you know, coming along because there's a lot of companies that are manufacturing and marketing B P A free. Thalates are a big one. Those are also found in a lot of like personal hygiene products and cosmetics, shampoos, deodorants, creams, everything, like anything personal hygiene. And then there's, there's also the forever chemicals, PFAS. Those are also found in a variety of, of things that are water resistant, oil repellent, you know, anything like that. Well, so that, that these chemicals, so I mentioned, I mentioned hormones, you know, they're disrupting testosterone.

• 18:07Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So there's been a variety of studies looking at, for example, urinary B P A exposure and testosterone levels. And, you know, there's an association with higher urinary B P A exposure, higher urinary B P A, you know, excretion and lower testosterone. Again, because these things are affecting, you know, they're affecting hormones through feedback loops because they're binding to these estrogen receptors, these androgen receptors. And this is something that microplastics themselves are, you know, leaching in. So if you have microplastics accumulating in your testes, for example, I mean, there was a study, it was a small study, it was done. That found 100% of this of people and they also tested dogs.

• 18:52Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  100% of both people and dogs had microplastics in their semen. Like not a single sample that didn't have microplastics in semen. And it was also, this was also associated with disrupted morphology. So the structure of sperm and also motility, so the ability to move and swim. Right? So this stuff is sort of fundamental, right? It's affecting our like reproduction. It's, it's, it's kind of, and it's everywhere. It's ubiquitous. So it's, it's, it's not something to ignore. You know, there's obviously a lot of other lifestyle factors that are important being, you know, maintaining a healthy weight and exercise and all that. But on, I, I do think this is a growing issue. It's affecting hormones.

• 19:36Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  BPA is also affecting the brain. So a lot of studies on brain development, but also like studies looking at, you know, just correlations between high BPA levels in adults. Neurodevelopment is a big one because developing, you know, fetuses like, like, like males that are developing, boys that are developing, it's affecting their neurodevelopment. So women that have higher urinary BPA levels are six times more likely to have a child diagnosed with autism. And also it's affecting the sexual development of boys.

• 20:15Chris Williamson?

  So AGD is getting impacted, right?

• 20:19Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  There's, yes, exactly. So it's both the anogenital distance. So that would be the distance between the anus and, and the, the penis. Right?

• 20:29Chris Williamson?

  Glad that you said it.

• 20:30Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  And so that's shorter, right? It's, it's these plastic chemicals like phthalates in particular is a big one. Also BPA is affecting the, you know, the anogenital distance. But it's also affecting, phthalates in particular are affecting undescended testicles is a big one. I mean, it's, it's really common now. If you talk to like parents, like how common it is to have a boy with an undescended testicle and also hypospadia. So that's, that is the, in boys, it's the urethra slit where urine comes out of. It's like further back on the, on the penis. And so it's basically. Some boys have to sit.

• 21:06Chris Williamson?

  Warping the entire physiology.

• 21:07Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah, so your stream isn't normal, right? You might have to sit down to to urinate because the the slit is like further back on the on the on the penis. This is a big thing that phthalates are. It's affecting sexual development because these hormones are really important. They're signaling during

• 21:25Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 21:25Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  development, how organs.

• 21:27Chris Williamson?

  You're a male, you're a female.

• 21:29Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly, they are. And so, you know, this is a, this is a.

• 21:34Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I think it's a growing problem. I think we have enough evidence now to be alarmed about it. There should be some conversations about it because, you know, it's not like we're going to have a randomized controlled trial where you're going to give a pregnant woman BPA and phthalates, right? That's unethical. So you're never going to have that gold standard. We're going to have to look at this observational data, which at the end of the day is, of course, always correlation. But there's a lot of it. And there's a lot of animal data showing causation in animals, showing how it's happening. And we have to kind of connect the dots and say, look, like, this is something we need to be concerned about. These chemicals are affecting human development, you know? And they're affecting adults. They're affecting cognition, you know?

• 22:19Chris Williamson?

  How so? What's the impact of plastic on cognition?

• 22:22Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah, I mean, again, it's correlate correlation, but there've been studies looking at high BPA levels. Again, it's always urinary because we excrete BPA through our urine. That's how we detoxify it. And so, high urinary BPA levels is associated with, you know, decreased cognition, decreased memory scores, decreased learning. So, again, correlation, because you could say, well, people are consuming packaged foods, which are ultra-processed, and that also is associated with poor cognition.

• 22:51Chris Williamson?

  Is it what they're consuming? Or is it what they're consuming is contained within?

• 22:55Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right. But we do know that BPA can cross the blood-brain barrier. It can disrupt neuronal signaling. Again, when you look at the animal data and you have a mechanism that's very plausible there, you start to connect the dots and go, wow, there's plausibility here. We can understand what it's doing. We have human data that's correlating it. So, you know, we need to start to think about these things. Like, there's only so much that you can, you know, that you can do without, of course, being unethical and designing an experiment, right?

• 23:25Chris Williamson?

  Is there a sex difference between how men and how women are susceptible to plastics? Are certain types of plastics more? Are they making different kinds of impacts? And obviously, women can be pregnant. So I guess, developing children in the womb, that's one thing. But yeah, what's the sex difference story?

• 23:43Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It does. It does seem like males tend to be more susceptible.

• 23:47Chris Williamson?

  God damn it. I knew it. I knew it.

• 23:51Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  You know, males in general, like, like during development, it's like, they seem to be more vulnerable to a lot of different environmental stresses, including, you know, like acetaminophen. And there's all kinds of studies where you'll find, oh, this is happening in a male, you know, fetus, like a male that's developing, not, not the female.

• 24:12Chris Williamson?

  Female privilege. Okay, go on.

• 24:14Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  But, but yeah, again, we mentioned all these reproductive effects in, in men, right? It's, it's, and also autism effects. I mean, men is like twice, men are twice as likely, or boys are twice as likely to be diagnosed with autism than, than girls.

• 24:27Chris Williamson?

  So 12 times more likely if you've got a ton of microplastics in you?

• 24:31Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I don't know that. I'm not sure about that. But, but I mean.

• 24:34Chris Williamson?

  I also don't do maths very well. But anyway, um, yeah, it is, it's, I mean, what is it? What's the saying? Males are nature's playthings. That there's just more male variability. There's more male variability in terms of IQ, in terms of height, in terms of all of these different things. And, um, every fetus starts off as female as well, right?

• 24:55Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I think there's some kind of, there's some kind of sex, there's, I mean, first of all, the sex is determined by the male side to the sperm, right? And I'm not exactly sure that I would say it starts off as female, but like, it depends on what you're defining.

• 25:09Chris Williamson?

  Is this not the reason why men have got nipples? You need to have all of the, you need to have all of the individual bit. Like, this is where we need to go. I'm pretty sure. Someone chat GPT it. Someone chat GPT it and tell me whether or not I'm right. I feel like I might be right here. But, okay. Sex differences. How does it impact men and women differently?

• 25:27Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  And, and it also goes with like, you know, a lot of these plastic chemicals like BPA are also affecting.

• 25:35Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  ADHD, not just autism. And again, it seems like boys are more susceptible to that. But these plastic chemicals do affect women as well. You know, it's also something that's affecting fertility. It's affecting egg like so there's been studies on in vitro fertilization. And women that have high levels of BPA, they have like 50% less viable eggs. So it's not like these plastic chemicals aren't affecting women as well. And cognition in general, I mean, it's affecting both, both sexes. Right. It's not just men, but it seems as though like sexual development. Really, it seems to be targeting males, especially the phthalates.

• 26:13Chris Williamson?

  What about testosterone levels, energy, energy production, stuff like that?

• 26:18Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So testosterone levels, as I mentioned, there's, there seems to be a, because you've got BPA and some of the other chemicals, they are endocrine disrupting. They are binding to estrogen receptors. They are binding to androgen receptors. And depends depending on the dose, this will affect, you know, the hormones that are, that are signaling to the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis, right? The HPG axis where testosterone is produced. And so ultimately what happens is there's like these feedback loops that are important in order to make hormones like testosterone. And so that gets disrupted and then the HPG axis is disrupted. And so you don't make as much testosterone.

• 27:02Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Again, a lot of this has been worked out in animal studies. When you look at the human data, it's okay. Men with higher levels of BPA also have lower levels of testosterone. So the question is, you know, like, okay, well, what can we do about it? Right. Like you want to try to avoid some of these plastics, plastic chemicals.

• 27:22Chris Williamson?

  Well, let's actually, before we get into that, you've sort of touched on them a few times, but just do a rundown for me of the most common places that people are getting exposed to the highest levels of microplastics.

• 27:33Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah. So the, the most I would say common places. One is drinking out of bottled water, like bottled, plastic bottles. Right. Like a lot of people drink out of plastic bottles. That would be a big source. Tap water, that's unfiltered. So tap water, again, also has microplastics. Unfortunately, our oceans are contaminated. So microplastics are also found in a lot of fish. And particularly they accumulate in the digestive tract of fish. So if you're eating. Shellfish or clams or oysters or anything where you're eating the whole digestive tract or sardine, whole, whole sardine, then you're going to be getting microplastics.

• 28:16Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Heat is a big, big one. Okay, I would say that is one of the main, you know, culprits when you're combining that with plastic. So a lot of your to-go coffees that you're drinking from Starbucks, anything like that is going, that is a huge one because you're, you're, you know, there's been studies looking at BPA leaching into liquid when it's, when heat like boiling water is applied, it increases, increases the leaching by 55 times, which is huge. It also increases microplastic, you know, breakdown, right? Because you're breaking down the plastic.

• 28:50Chris Williamson?

  It's only you're getting more, you're making the plastic smaller, which allows it to be permeating through the gut more effectively.

• 28:56Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly, exactly. I can't tell you how many like to-go coffees I've had in my life and, you know, another big source now, this is like new coming out. I mean, this, there's been a couple of studies that have come out on this is tea bags. Because you're adding hot water to tea and the tea bags themselves are made of either polypropylene, they're made of nylon, or they're made of interestingly cellulose, which you would think wouldn't have microplastics, but I think they, they must be mixed, there must be a mixture of stuff in there. And there's, this new study came out, you know, really just a couple of months ago, showing that you can get anywhere between millions to

• 29:36Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  billions of microplastic particles per milliliter. I mean, per milliliter.

• 29:43Chris Williamson?

  How many, how much is that compared with the normal sort of, that's a, that's a large.

• 29:48Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It's a lot. It's a lot. What I'm getting at is, you know, I, you know, there's not that, I, I think what's happening is the, the, the heat is breaking the plastic down. These tea bags are made of plastic. And so, um, you know, consuming these tea bags. Again, when you're getting to go tea, it's like I now I'm like, all I can think about is like, I'm consuming a plastic tea.

• 30:11Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:12Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  But you have to remember, there's a lot of studies, at least with green tea, showing that green tea has huge benefits for cognition. It delays dementia.

• 30:20Chris Williamson?

  It might even offset the microplastics you've had to consume.

• 30:22Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah. So I mean, clearly, people are drinking tea out of probably teabags. So it's not like,

• 30:26Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 30:27Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  At least with green tea, it seems like there's some benefits. Right. But so those are some of the major sources. And then there's also, it's in our salt. And then air, right? So like, that's another one. If you're living in a polluted place, if you're, again, you know.

• 30:44Chris Williamson?

  Internally venting your dryer.

• 30:45Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Dryer ventilation in your house. That's another major source. And then another one would be also to consider would be black plastic. So I know you're like, what? This is, this is kind of some new data coming out. Black plastic is often made from recycled electronics. And

• 31:05Chris Williamson?

  You mean bits of plastic that are black?

• 31:07Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I mean, black utensils, like your black spatula, or black plastic, you know, forks and knives, or your, your black plastic lid on a coffee, to go coffee cup. Black sushi, the bottom of a sushi container, bottom of like a rotisserie chicken. If you've ever bought a rotisserie chicken from the grocery store, that black, right? Black plastic. It's often made from recycled electronics. And recycled electronics often have chemicals in them that are added to prevent fires from starting, like they don't want electronics starting fires. So they add these brominated flame retardants, which are carcinogenic. They are not supposed to be in food. They're not supposed, they're not, you don't suck on your electronic. That's supposed to go in your mouth.

• 31:51Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right? So these black, these black plastics have very high levels of carcinogens that are normally not even found in regular plastics that were, you know, in things that we're consuming. And there was a study out of the University of Plymouth that found black utensils, black toys for babies, you know, they're putting in their mouth. They contain between 30 to 40 times the safe limit of these brominated. Flame retardants and other carcinogens and endocrine disruptors in them than than than safe. So that's another sort of, and think about it, if you're buying like a rotisserie chicken or like you get it to go pho or whatever soup and it's in like a black container, you got the heat.

• 32:36Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  That's the added factor on top of that, right? So that's another major source.

• 32:40Chris Williamson?

  What about dermal stuff?

• 32:42Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yes. Yes. So again, we mentioned the phthalates, right? Which are in personal hygiene products. And that's something I do want to mention because you might think, oh, I'm looking at the ingredient list and there's no phthalate on there. But there's two different chemicals that are very, very sneaky because they mean there's phthalates and they're in a lot of personal hygiene products. One is fragrance. If the word fragrance is in the ingredient list, that means there's phthalates. And parfum, not perfume, but parfum. That is another chemical that means there's phthalates. So you really want to look for phthalate free personal hygiene products.

• 33:23Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Again, very important, especially for people that are considering conceiving because those the chemicals that are associated with the sexual, disrupting sexual development in boys. And then the other one is receipts. And this is a really big one because maybe not for you and I, right? Receipts are, they're thermal paper and so essentially they're coated with BPA because there's a thermal reaction that happens when heat is applied to the BPA. It prints, it prints text on the receipt without actual ink. So that's how it works. And if you ever see like a white coating on the receipt, like that's, that's BPA.

• 34:05Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So the BPA in like plastics, at least it's kind of contained in a plastic matrix. Like this is just-

• 34:10Chris Williamson?

  It's purposefully liberated. Yes.

• 34:12Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly. It's like free for all on the receipt. And so there's studies looking at people that handle a lot of receipts. They have like when I was in the airport-

• 34:21Chris Williamson?

  Check out stuff and stuff like that.

• 34:22Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah, I was in the airport on coming, coming here and you know- The guy that was like handling the receipt, he's like, do you want the receipt? I'm like, no. And I saw him take it out and put it in the trash. And like, I thought about, there's this huge line of people.

• 34:36Chris Williamson?

  You're doing that 500 times a day?

• 34:38Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly. And I looked at this guy and I was like, I was like, hey dude, you know, I just want to tell you that these receipts are lined with endocrine disruptors that disrupt hormones. And he goes, you mean?

• 34:48Chris Williamson?

  Wish somebody had recorded this. Oh my God. This lady is going through the airport. I met this lady earlier on today and she started ranting and raving about the receipts. Said it's sort of covered in this magic dust that's killing me or something like.

• 35:03Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I couldn't, I couldn't help myself. I felt like it, like I couldn't not say something, right? And he looks at me and goes, you mean like testosterone? I was like, yes, testosterone. It's been, it's been correlated with a decrease in testosterone. I was like, you need to wear nitrile gloves. So bottom line is BPA, it's lined on the receipts. Nitrile gloves can stop people from absorbing it. So people that are like, you know, basically any kind of cashier, anyone that's handling a receipt multiple times a day, highly recommend they wear nitrile gloves. Latix doesn't do that. Also, if you wear cream or hand sanitizer, it's been shown to increase the dermal absorption of BPA by a hundred fold.

• 35:44Chris Williamson?

  Fuck off.

• 35:49Chris Williamson?

  Some people are like, I don't want to get my hands on the.

• 35:52Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I don't want to get COVID or whatever, right? How many?

• 35:54Chris Williamson?

  Hundred X.

• 35:55Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Hundred X absorption. Think about how, how many times these, I've seen, I've seen them do it, you know? And then they touch the receipt. So I think, I think this is like something that is not really talked about. And here I am worried about my like one time exposure. So, you know, for people out there, it's like, yeah, you can opt for no receipt.

• 36:12Chris Williamson?

  Career of working in Target or something like that. So the first time that I ever learned about receipts, you won't know who this is, but Owen Schroyer, who is Alex Jones's sort of second in command. I went for dinner with him when I first moved to Austin, like forever ago. It was him and a bunch of other people. There was a couple of girls at the table with us as well, just downtown in Austin. And the receipt came out and I was like, oh, this, I'm sort of new here. I'll, I'll get the meal. That'd be like nice. It'd be a nice thing for me to do. So I did it. And as I'm going to get the receipt out, one of the girls that sat around the table like hits my hand away. I'm like. What? She's like, what are you doing? As if I was about to walk out into open traffic and like, I was gonna take the receipt and I was gonna put the tip on. She was like, are you crazy? You're gonna touch that? I'm like,

• 36:54Chris Williamson?

  so it kind of does show that the fringe insight from three years ago, some of that stuff ends up being a bullseye and sort of percolates around. Now, I'm not saying that all of it is, but some of the stuff ends up being legit.

• 37:08Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right, it is. It's definitely legit and it is a concern, particularly for people that are handling them daily, multiple times, multiple times a day. And I don't know that I've really, I've seen a couple people wearing gloves at cash registers like-

• 37:20Chris Williamson?

  They've got um, special ones that are like finger things. Have you seen those?

• 37:24Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I've seen those.

• 37:25Chris Williamson?

  An individual, so maybe just the sort of your first two fingers and your thumb or something, rather than having to wear sweaty gloves all day.

• 37:30Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right.

• 37:31Chris Williamson?

  And I imagine that's, I mean, significant. Well, it gets through latex as well.

• 37:35Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It gets through latex. Yeah, BPA is like, it's, it's fat soluble and stuff and we can talk about ways to get rid of it, but like,

• 37:43Chris Williamson?

  What about, final, final thing, I guess, on sources. You mentioned clothing going through the dryer. I don't know what this T-shirt's made of. It looks a little bit shiny. Maybe there's some polyester in it. I know that the brand of pants that I tried, I shit you not, 15 different types of pants, until I settled on these are bamboo cotton, but I'm like, is that, what about the, what about the elastin liner around the top? What about the way that this is stitched? There's probably a dermal absorption in an area that I really don't want that to be too much of it. How much are we getting leached in from the clothes that we wear?

• 38:19Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah, that's a great question. So again, um,

• 38:22Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  it's not the BPA and those chemicals. Most of the time you might have like forever chemicals and some of that as well, right? Like especially if it's like a, not, maybe not the underwear, but like, like a coat or something that's, anything that's waterproof.

• 38:35Chris Williamson?

  Gore-Tex-y type thing.

• 38:36Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah.

• 38:37Chris Williamson?

  But I guess you, I suppose the one advantage of outerwear being higher in forever chemicals is that by virtue of it being outerwear, there's usually some layers in between you and it.

• 38:47Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right. Um, when it comes to, you know, undergarments or even just like our shirts and clothing, it, the dermal absorption is not the major source from, from clothes, from clothing. It's not the major way that like BPA and these chemicals are getting into our system.

• 39:01Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 39:01Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  With that said, If you're sweating, if you're working out, if there's a lot of friction, like sweat, heat, that opens pores, right? And so you can increase some absorption somewhat. There's no real data on this. It's just me like thinking about mechanism, right?

• 39:18Chris Williamson?

  I guess as well, you know, one of the weird quirks of gym kit, especially the sort of gym kit where people sweat, is that it's polyester sort of fitted t-shirts, leggings, things like that, that people are then moving friction, which is going to liberate something. You're sweating, that's heat. There's water, pores are open, larger aperture for whatever it is to get in.

• 39:44Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly. So, I mean, I still like.

• 39:47Chris Williamson?

  We're not panicking.

• 39:48Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah, you can go, you have to choose your battles, right? You have to choose your battles. I do think that, yeah, maybe some people can wear cotton athletic wear. There's not a ton of it out there. Like it has to be a hundred percent natural fiber. So you mentioned bamboo. That would be a natural fiber.

• 40:04Chris Williamson?

  I imagine bedding as well, stuff like that.

• 40:07Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Bedding as well, exactly. If you're like sweating in your bed and also just like your breathing, like your face is right there every night. I mean, so if you can get like a hundred percent bamboo sheets are like really soft as well. So, I mean, that would be, I mean, again, you can start to go down the rabbit hole. Believe me, I've been there. But I think for most, 99% of the people, like focusing on like the major culprits will keep you sane.

• 40:30Chris Williamson?

  The one elephant in the room when we're talking about this, which is, and obviously everybody, including me, is now thinking, all right, okay, where are the places I've got plastic in my life? Well, I've switched all of my Tupperware out from plastic to glass. I use glass water bottles or use like an Aqua True reverse osmosis thing. That's good. That goes into a glass carafe and I'm using like a Yeti called blah, blah, blah. But the food that we eat, even the best quality steaks, they, unless you're going to the farmer's market and he's chopped it off the cow and put it in wax paper, it's wrapped in plastic.

• 41:03Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right.

• 41:03Chris Williamson?

  I work with Piedmontese. They make amazing beef. My favorite beef in the world. It's the tastiest stuff.

• 41:10Chris Williamson?

  Arrives to me wrapped in plastic. So like, what have you got any idea when it comes to packaging, packaging of vegetables, you know, even the organic double washed spinach that's in one of those sort of big tray things with the plastic across the top and it's all around the sides. How much, how big of a deal is that?

• 41:27Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yes, exactly. I've gone down that rabbit hole. So I'm glad you brought it up. You know, when it comes to like meats and stuff, I mean, exactly, unless and even if you're like out hunting it, like you're gonna, you've got a lot of meat, you're gonna store it in your freezer and you're gonna vacuum seal it and it's gonna be in a plastic vacuum sealed bag, right? Like, it's not, it's unavoidable. The, the reality is, is that if you, if you can, the, the more the plastic breaks down over time. So time, oxygen, heat, these are all a factor in the breakdown of plastics to our food, into our food and also the chemicals associated with them. So if you're, you know, just, if, if the plastic is only on your meat for a short

• 42:11Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  period of time, or it's in the freezer, at least it's a little more stable.

• 42:14Chris Williamson?

  As opposed to if you've got a bottle of Evian in Dubai, that's been transported via truck, two or three or four different journeys and it's been hot and it's been cool again, then it's been hot and then it's been cool again, then finally gets into a fridge and you go, ah, it's been in the fridge, it's cold.

• 42:28Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 42:29Chris Williamson?

  You go, what about the rest of the supply chain?

• 42:32Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Bingo, exactly. So, I mean, this is the way I think about it. And, you know, when it comes to like the vegetables and all that stuff, the same, the same goes. I mean, like, I, when I get my vegetables, I rinse them off because you do, you can rinse off some of the stuff that's not quite absorbed. But, you know, don't, you don't want to put it in a plastic bag and store it in your refrigerator. If you can, like, I just put like a paper towel down and put the vegetables on top of that. If you're, if you're getting like, I buy blueberries, they come in a plastic container. Like, what are you gonna do? You rinse off the blueberries, you, you kind of hope for the best. It's not like the blueberries have been in that plastic container for years, right? Obviously, blueberries.

• 43:07Chris Williamson?

  Kind of been in there for that long or else they'd be dead.

• 43:08Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right. So, so, so you have to have some peace of mind and realize, okay, we do live in a plastic world. At the end of the day, you know, It it it does come down to the breakdowns of this plastic. And so, you know, the things that you want to avoid are, like you said, the bottled water, the heat touching the plastic. You want to get a reverse osmosis filter. So reverse osmosis, you mentioned Aqua True. That's a great countertop one. Yeah, I have a lot of friends that use that because it's a countertop.

• 43:36Chris Williamson?

  What do you use?

• 43:37Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Um, I'm actually in the process of getting an in-home, like, full system.

• 43:42Chris Williamson?

  You're using Greenfield for that?

• 43:44Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  No.

• 43:44Chris Williamson?

  You know, his dad makes one of the most advanced water, in-home water.

• 43:48Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Oh, no, I didn't know that.

• 43:49Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's like actually absolutely like father, like son biohacker.

• 43:53Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Oh, I wonder if so. The company, I can't remember. I have to look at my phone. But the company that I was going with are, they store the water, the water stored in stainless steel instead of plastic ju- like jugs.

• 44:04Chris Williamson?

  Oh, so you're getting it delivered? You're not getting it.

• 44:07Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  No, no, no. What I mean is like, like the, so the housing, the tubes, and then like, you know, they have, there's like the storage containers that are like part of the system.

• 44:16Chris Williamson?

  Okay, right.

• 44:17Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I don't know exactly how.

• 44:17Chris Williamson?

  So they're remapping the whole house to have no plastic in the pipes?

• 44:21Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Um, no. No, no, no. It's just the, just the filtration that's, well, actually, I mean, in a way, it's just that what's coming through my showers, what's going to come.

• 44:30Chris Williamson?

  Because the filtration is going to be at the close to the last point.

• 44:33Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 44:34Chris Williamson?

  Understood, understood. Well, Ben will be listening, so I'm sure he'll, he'll, he'll tell me whether or not.

• 44:37Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Well, the, the one thing to consider with reverse osmosis filtration is it does, so the great thing about reverse osmosis is it filters out not only microplastics, but it filters out nanoplastics. It filters out really, really, really tiny, tiny particles and chemicals, including trace elements and minerals and things that we need.

• 44:58Chris Williamson?

  What's your favorite? This is a good, this is a good question. What is your favorite remineralization protocol, presuming that you use some sort of reverse osmosis system?

• 45:08Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So that's what I, that's what I was looking into. And there are some systems that will remineralize the water after it's been infiltrated. So you don't have to.

• 45:19Chris Williamson?

  Think about it.

• 45:20Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Or add something back, which is kind of annoying. However, you can add something back, particularly if you've already got a system in use and you haven't

• 45:27Chris Williamson?

  I think most people, the most realistic solution that people will get will be some sort of tabletop type solution rather than replumbing their entire house.

• 45:35Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So there's a variety of drops that you can add to your water that are in like a glass container that will re mineralize the, you're talking like magnesium, potassium, you know, lithium, manganese, just a lot of the trace elements that are, that are.

• 45:48Chris Williamson?

  Do you have any brands that you like, do you know?

• 45:50Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Well, I haven't gotten any of those, but there's also a mineral supplement you can take. And I do know of a good one from Pure Encapsulations. It's called, it's called Mineral 50 or Pure 50. And there's a one with and without iron, depending on, you know, a lot of men don't want iron. And it really is, it's essentially all the minerals that are filtered out of, of water from reverse osmosis. And it's just one like tablet that you take a day.

• 46:15Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I, I, you know, I was a partner with Aqua True. I think there's still maybe, you can try for the people that are listening, you can maybe try MW25 as a code. I'm not on commission, but I was a partner with Aqua True for ages. They also make Air Doctor. I'm not sure if, so Air Doctor is a carbon and there's two types of filter for your house. Again, just a standalone unit that does, it's called Ideal Living is the company. They also did this, I didn't realize, you may have looked into this, atomizers, you know, you put essential oils into them. The process that that goes through also pushes a ton of stuff that you don't want into the atmosphere.

• 46:57Chris Williamson?

  Yankee candles and candles and stuff like that, also liberating a ton of stuff that you don't really want. I remember OGs of the channel will remember that where we very, very first started this podcast in my house in Newcastle, the, I had a candle obsession for a while and the ceiling of this room had accumulated so much sot that it looked like it was moldy. It was a really nice house, really nicely decorated room, and we got shit on the internet for six months, more, more than six months, like a full year before I had to pay decorators to come in just to paint the ceiling so that people on the internet would shut up. My point being. I was, I went through like a candle a month or something and I was like, huh, that's on the seat.

• 47:42Chris Williamson?

  That's in my lungs, like not good.

• 47:45Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right. Yeah, I, this is, I'm glad you brought that up. So obviously there's air filters, like a high quality HEPA filter, which is a great one that does filter out the microplastics, you know, vacuuming also can disturb and bring microplastics in the air. Some vacuums have HEPA filters on them as well, you know, but, but a lot of things to consider. But you mentioned air quality and air pollution and, and chemicals that are in it. And that's another. So that, so the other area is, you know, can you get rid of any of these chemicals like BPA? How do you, how do you excrete them or some of the things, you know, some of the things that you're breathing in, right? So that, that's the, the next question.

• 48:24Chris Williamson?

  I, I actually think before that, before we get into how you get them out of you, can you just do a run through of best tactics for avoidance? Like super simple, this is what we know. I know it's going to be imperfect. I know that everybody with health anxiety is just, their heart rate's, you know, 20% higher than it should be. What's the 80/20 on avoiding plastics in consumption?

• 48:47Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I do. I think there's imperfect avoidance, right? It's, you're not going to avoid it 100%. But I think the, I would say the top things to consider and try to implement in your life would be, one, get a high quality reverse osmosis filter, whether it's countertop or whole house system. That's first and foremost. Number two, avoid drinking as much as possible out of plastic bottles, also cans do, are lined with plastic lining as well. So consider that as well. Number three, avoid heating plastics. So really like the to-go coffee mugs is a big one. Bring, bring your own, you know, mug like this here. Yeti, I, I bring Yetis to, I bring them when I travel and I ask them to, can you put my latte in this mug? And they do it.

• 49:32Chris Williamson?

  I just had an idea that, so I've become addicted, I'm keep where you are, but I've become addicted to Dutch Bros coffee and I kind of need to tell the internet about it. Uh, it's phenomenal. I wonder if there is a way, I was watching them make it, cause when you go and go through the drive-through, you can actually see the process of them going through it. A lot of the time when they make an iced coffee, an iced latte, they're pouring it between almost what looks like a Cocktail Year's shaker, the steel thing.

• 50:01Chris Williamson?

  Pouring it between that and pouring it between your cup. I haven't done this yet, but one of the things that I thought about, because the cup is typically filled with the ice. Then they pour the hot liquid over the ice and that's what cools it. I was like, huh, if I said, rather than you pouring it from the steel thing into the plastic, could I just get you to do two steel things side by side? Put the ice in that one, cool it down and then pop it into the plastic thing for me. Obviously the gold standard would be to take your own cup, but if you would say that you don't have that, I also have to assume that iced drinks are going to be better. Even if you get a splash of hot hitting the cup that you don't, you can't get them to do some fancy cocktail trick with. It's going to cool it down more quickly. So it's not going to liberate for as long for as, to as small.

• 50:44Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly. And if you think about it, if you're getting an iced cup of fill in the blank, you know, that's plastic. The, the beverage isn't in that cup for that long, right? So the breakdown, it's like, it's not really happening.

• 50:57Chris Williamson?

  You waiting for 20 minutes for it to become a consumable temperature.

• 51:00Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah. Or as opposed to like bottled water, like you said, it's like, how long has it been in there and the heat it's been in? How many trucks has it been on and warehouses is it, you know, gone through before it's been in that refrigerator that you think is cold? So, you know, and I do want to mention another thing with coffee, but I'll get back to the imperfect avoidance.

• 51:18Chris Williamson?

  We've got, uh, reverse osmosis, not drinking tap water. Second up is avoiding bottled water. Third one is avoiding heating plastic, which would include Tupperware, reheating meals, meal prep companies, stuff like that, I'm going to guess.

• 51:32Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yes. Yeah. All that because that's, you know, they're putting a lot of stuff in plastic, right?

• 51:39Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  And then I did mention like, like canned soup is really bad because it's in a, it's in a can that's lined with BPA. And the soup goes in hot. It goes in hot.

• 51:50Chris Williamson?

  Oh, when they fill it?

• 51:52Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah, so there've been studies that have compared people that get canned soup to like soup made in glass. And it increases like urinary BPA by a thousand percent, which is insanely high.

• 52:04Chris Williamson?

  Have you, do you know what the inside of Tetrapaks are like? Those sort of more carton things? Do you know what I mean by Tetrapak?

• 52:09Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I don't know what's in it, but I'll tell you this, and this is what I want to get back to.

• 52:12Chris Williamson?

  Probably fucking BPA.

• 52:13Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  There's something called polylactic acid that you can line. I think you can line cans with it. I know you can line to go coffee mugs, like some, I know blue bottle coffee lines it with polylactic acid rather than like BPA plastic. So, polylactic acid, why not replace?

• 52:32Chris Williamson?

  That's not liberated in the same way. That's not, that wouldn't impact us.

• 52:36Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It's, it's an organic. It's not, it's not plastic. Polylactic acid, it's like an organic compound.

• 52:43Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 52:43Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah. So, I mean, you just have to make sure that, you know, with anything, sometimes companies will mix a little plastic in there and you never really know, right? Like, that's always.

• 52:53Chris Williamson?

  The supply chain of your plastic, let alone your food.

• 52:55Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  But let's just assume that everyone's like, you know, credible and yeah, doing the right thing. Yeah, polylactic acid. I don't know why, like Starbucks and all these companies and cans, everything should be lined with it because it's, you know, it's, it's healthy. It's a healthier option.

• 53:11Chris Williamson?

  I'm gonna look into that for, for Neutonic. Okay, so what's, what's next up after this? Soup, heating stuff, Tupperware? I mean, dear God, please just replace all of your Tupperware with glass.

• 53:21Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly. And also your utensils, like don't, don't use spatulas that are made of plastic.

• 53:26Chris Williamson?

  Wood?

• 53:27Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Wood is fine. Yeah, wood, you know, also Teflon, like cans and stuff coating, like you wanna have, you wanna have stainless steel or you wanna do cast iron or ceramic, right? Like, you don't want things that are coated because like you just never know what's in that coating.

• 53:45Chris Williamson?

  I saw a comparison image on Twitter of one of those, the non-stick pans, but one of those that's, you've used for two and a half years and it's got loads of scratches in it and that causes all hell to break loose and be liberated into the food.

• 54:00Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Absolutely. I mean, think about the scratches, like that stuff is going somewhere, like where's it going, right?

• 54:04Chris Williamson?

  In you.

• 54:04Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It's going into your food, right? It's going into you. So, that's another, heat is a really big one and also microwave popcorn. So, the inside of bags, the inside of the bags of microwave popcorn are lined with forever chemicals. Forever chemicals are called that PFAS because it takes our body like two to five years to get rid of them and they are carcinogens. They're they're terrible and so and they're you're heating it up, right? The popcorn's heating up. So popcorn popcorn bags is is another one. But I think, you know, in terms of that and then, you know, with respect to like the foods, obviously, like if you can like shrimp, eating whole sardines, anything like microplastics

• 54:47Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  are in the digestive tract of those foods. So like limiting, you just don't want to eat shrimp like every day.

• 54:53Chris Williamson?

  What are um, what are capsules, double zero zero capsules for supplements? What's that made of?

• 55:02Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  What are those?

• 55:03Chris Williamson?

  You know, like a capsule, like a

• 55:04Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Like magnesium sterate?

• 55:06Chris Williamson?

  Like any type of creatine capsule or something where it's in a it's capsulated as opposed to just a raw tablet. Is that what it is? Is it gelatin typically?

• 55:15Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It's usually not plastic.

• 55:16Chris Williamson?

  I was just looking at it and thinking, I bet that someone somewhere has realized that we can make it 50% cheaper if we use some sort of but it's typically going to be like a gelatin thing.

• 55:26Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Usually a high quality supplement would be. Yeah, I haven't I haven't seen the plastic ones, but I don't, you know, I don't go around to the

• 55:32Chris Williamson?

  Well, that's the first place that I've identified that doesn't have plastics in so far. So I can breathe a sigh of relief around all of the tablets that I take every day.

• 55:39Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I think if you're doing those things, though, that's like the the majority of of trying to decrease your exposure.

• 55:45Chris Williamson?

  From the dryer.

• 55:46Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right. And then have a have a HEPA filter filter in your house.

• 55:49Chris Williamson?

  What do you like to use?

• 55:50Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I mean, you can use like, like, there's a lot of different, there's like high, high quality medical grade ones that are a little more expensive, which are great. But for people that are just like, like, say, they live in a condo or like they have a small flat or something, you know, even getting like a Honeywell HEPA filter, like for each room, they're really not that expensive and they do filter out a lot of particulate matter that you're, you know, breathing in, including microplastics. So I mean, that's a pretty, I think, feasible option for

• 56:16Chris Williamson?

  Good start on a endlessly comprehensive list. Okay, so if we've got, that's how to avoid them. This is where they come from. How possible is it for our bodies to actually get rid of them? What are the ways that we can speed this up? Actually, first question, is it possible to test? Can I go and work out how many how many microplastics are in my body?

• 56:34Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  That's a good question. So I've had people emailing me about tests they're developing for for for measuring microplastics in circulation. You have to remember, once it gets into circulation, like that's when it's going to other organs, right? I haven't seen any validated tests on actual microplastics yet, but there are tests on the chemicals associated with them. So like BPA, phthalates, forever chemicals. And the test that I use is from Vibrant Wellness. They have a really, yeah, they have a really great toxin panel test.

• 57:06Chris Williamson?

  Total Tox.

• 57:07Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yep. And so they do everything, like all those chemicals and others. They do like microtoxins, they do heavy metals. And, uh, you know, I don't have any affiliation with them, but I think they're just, they've got a great.

• 57:18Chris Williamson?

  Same one that my, that my doctor, Gabrielle Lyon, it's the same one that her team suggested. And it came back and everything was fucking red. So, uh, yeah, I can vouch for the fact that it's accurate.

• 57:28Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right. So that would be, you know, the testing wise. Now, um, again, with microplastics, I think we're going to start to see a lot of tests come out now that this is.

• 57:37Chris Williamson?

  Brian Johnson's trying to develop one. He was tweeting about it recently. I mean, he's tweeting about a lot of things at the moment. Um, but yeah, he was tweeting about some microplastics test.

• 57:46Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Interesting. Yeah, there's, there's a variety of companies and I'm sure Vibrant Wellness is probably gonna add that to their list, um, as well.

• 57:54Chris Williamson?

  Okay. So that's how we find out. How can I get rid of them? I've got too many microplastics in my body. How do I get rid of them?

• 58:00Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah. So microplastics, we kind of talked about a little bit getting rid of them and that really the main source is excretion through feces and that happens with dietary fiber. So if you are eating a lot of fruits and vegetables, that does increase the chances that microplastics are going to move their way out through feces.

• 58:19Chris Williamson?

  Is that only microplastics that you're consuming along with it? Or is it able to pull microplastics deep, sort of detoxify them from your body?

• 58:26Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I think it's, I think it's in general, to be honest, because if you think about like fiber, what does it do? It moves stuff through your body. It doesn't necessarily have to be something that you just ate, right? Like it could be something that you had hours before. So if you're getting like fiber, daily fiber, right? Like thinking about getting your total daily fiber. I think that's something that is important because it's moving, it's moving it out of your body. So you can't absorb it. Through both ways, like the ways of just moving it through, but also with the type of fiber that's found in things like berries and apples. So these are pectins, like inulin, all this type of fermentable fiber, green bananas, resistant starch, like that stuff

• 59:08Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  makes viscous gel-like substance in your gut, which encapsulates microplastics that you're not absorbing them. So really, I think it's just like more important to focus on the daily fiber intake versus like with a meal.

• 59:20Chris Williamson?

  So is that the biggest mover, daily fiber intake, do you think?

• 59:23Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I do, and this is all animal data. Like, this is all new. There's no real human data yet on that area in terms of like excreting it through feces and absorption, intestinal absorption. But I do think like it makes sense. Why wouldn't it translate, right? So that's something that I think is important. Oh, the other thing, this just came out, this is interesting, also animal data. So forever chemicals, I mentioned forever chemicals, those take two to five years to excrete, to get rid of. I say excrete, to detox if I get out of your body. They stay in your body forever. That's why they're called forever chemicals. Unlike bisphenol A, which is, it's in your body for like up to four or five hours, you know, any from two to five hours. This is really kind of daily excretion, and

• 1:00:08Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  it's excreted through urine. But there's studies showing that they're called beta glucans, and they're in oats, and they're in mushrooms. But the study used oats. The beta glucans, which is, by the way, a fermentable type of fiber, they actually caused excretion of the forever chemicals PFAS in animals, which is something that doesn't happen. So they increase the excretion through, it's this whole mechanism that affects like your liver, your bile acid and liver and cholesterol and all this like fancy stuff that, you know, might be confusing to explain. But essentially, that's been shown to increase the excretion

• 1:00:50Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  of forever chemicals. So I've actually been adding a lot of oats. In fact, I had some oatmeal this morning because I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. Like, the reason why I also think it's happening in humans is because there was a human study, not with oats, but it's a drug that's used to lower cholesterol, and it does the exact same thing that oats, the beta glucans in oats do. It was shown to clear forever chemicals in people. So I'm like, oh, okay, add the dots here.

• 1:01:16Chris Williamson?

  What about sauna?

• 1:01:18Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Sauna. So sauna, so I'm talking about excreting things through urine or feces, right? So bisphenol A and a lot of these plastic chemicals, the primary root of excretion is through urine. And there is a way, I think, that we can excrete them. Sauna, you're excreting mostly is through sweat. And there are a lot of toxins that we're exposed to that we do excrete through sweat. A lot of those are heavy metals. So for example, cadmium and aluminum, so aluminum is associated with Alzheimer's disease. They are more readily excreted through sweat than through urine. And so when you get in the sauna, you really, you can, you can excrete a little bit of BPA. It does, it does come out through sweat as well. However, the

• 1:02:01Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  majority of excretion, chemicals that are being excreted through sweat are things like some heavy metals, things like that. So that is important for excretion of a lot of, you know, compounds that are detrimental to health. But when it comes to BPA, for example, or phthalates, so the way, so they, these compounds are, they're fat soluble. And in order for us to get rid of them, we have to make them water soluble. And there's an enzyme that does that. And that enzyme is activated by a system in our body called the Nrf2 system. It's a system that's a major transcription factor that basically turns on a lot of genes, turns off a lot of genes. So what it does is it activates something called the phase two

• 1:02:46Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  detoxification enzymes. These detox a lot of harmful compounds in our body. The major dietary activator of this system is a compound called sulforaphane, which is something that you can produce when you eat cruciferous vegetables like broccoli.

• 1:03:08Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Broccoli is a good source. Actually, the younger plant broccoli sprouts have 100 times more of the precursor to make sulforaphane called glucoraphanin. So you basically, the sulforaphane compound is made when the plant is like broken. So when you bite it, chew it, right? That's when you start to make the sulforaphane. So broccoli sprouts have a really, really high concentration of that precursor. There have been a variety of studies that have looked at sulforaphane and giving it to humans and it activating this system and causing the excretion of harmful compounds that we breathe in. So there have been studies in China where air pollution is terrible and people are breathing

• 1:03:50Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  in, for example, benzene. Okay. Benzene is a known carcinogen. It's also, in addition to air pollution, it's found in cigarette smoke, any plant burning material fires, right? So this is very relevant to people like in Southern California and Los Angeles where there's a lot of wildfires and the air quality is very bad. There's benzene in the air. Okay. Benzene is a carcinogen. So there have been studies in China, more than one study showing that consuming sulforaphane about, it's like 40, about 40 micromoles of sulforaphane causes the excretion of benzene to increase within 24 hours by 60%. So this is really big.

• 1:04:27Chris Williamson?

  You can't supplement sulforaphane?

• 1:04:29Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  You can, and I do supplement with it. So I take a supplement called Avmacall, and that supplement has been used in a lot of different clinical studies because it's very, it's a, they've got a very reliable source of glucoraphanin and the enzyme myrosinase is very unstable. It's sensitive to heat. So if you heat broccoli up really hot, you're actually like degrading a lot of the sulforaphane that you're gonna potentially make.

• 1:04:54Chris Williamson?

  So if someone's eating broccoli raw would be optimal?

• 1:04:56Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Optimal or just lightly, lightly cooked, like lightly cooked.

• 1:05:00Chris Williamson?

  So this company has been very delicate with how they've.

• 1:05:02Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  They, yeah, they, they've got, so I, what I, I take two of their advanced, advanced Avmacall, which has about, gosh, it's like. Sixty eight micromoles or something per per tablet. And so it only so actually taking one tablet of that was equivalent to the study on benzene excretion. So I take two tablets a day. And the reason I do that is because I also want to increase glutathione, which is a antioxidant, a very powerful antioxidant in our body. There have been clinical studies showing that people taking sulforaphane increase their glutathione levels in their plasma and also in their brain. So in the brain, I mean, it's it it's hugely important for cognitive function, for brain aging, everything like that. So I

• 1:05:47Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  take anywhere between two to four avmocals a day because that's and by the way, I have no affiliation with them. Their their stabilization process is really great. It's in a tablet form versus like a capsule. So capsules are cheaper to make, but they retain water and water degrades the myrosinase enzyme. So lots of

• 1:06:08Chris Williamson?

  Dancing through this minefield is basically impossible, isn't it?

• 1:06:11Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It there's a lot to consider. But when it comes back to the sulforaphane and BPA, there's not direct evidence, human evidence that it's causing the excretion. I think it's doing it because one, there's an animal study showing that if you give animals sulforaphane and then give them a toxic level of BPA, it doesn't induce toxicity. Two, sulforaphane activates these very enzymes that cause BPA to become water soluble and excreted. That's known. Three, we have all this, this, you know, data, human clinical data showing that sulforaphane causes the excretion of other harmful compounds that also have to be converted to be water soluble,

• 1:06:51Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  like benzene and acrylene, for example. So I think there's a lot of evidence suggesting that sulforaphane would help with excretion of BPA.

• 1:07:00Chris Williamson?

  You touched on something there. I don't know whether you've got any advice or whether you'd feel comfortable, but a lot of people will have been directly impacted by the fires in LA or indirectly just by it's happened around them. They've been more stressed and they've been breathing in this air, which presumably is still probably going to be in the local ecology. Is there anything, how worried do you think that people should be about what's been liberated into the air? And if you were someone that's been worried, is there a particular protocol or some things that you would consider over the next few weeks and months to try and just help yourself get back to a good place of health?

• 1:07:33Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I do, and you know, I have several friends that have been, you know, impacted by the LA fires and I've kind of talked to them about some of this stuff. So first, I've, I've, you know, avoiding going outside or wearing a mask if you're like there in the thick of it, right? When it's like really, really bad air quality. But having a HEPA filter inside, one, and two, the sulforaphane. So I've, I've now told several friends that they should be taking avmecal. Again, I don't have any affiliation with them. They just, there's multiple clinical studies using their formulation, very reliable. And so, you know, taking anywhere between two to four a day

• 1:08:14Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  to increase the excretion of a lot of these harmful compounds that are in the air. Now, that's not going to cause you, like the microplastics that you're breathing in, you're not gonna, sulforaphane isn't going to help with that. It's going to help with the chemical aspects of it. The microplastics themselves, like because plastics are burning and lots of stuff, particulate matters in the air. That's where you get the HEPA filters. That's important to help with the breathing in that air, right? So.

• 1:08:40Chris Williamson?

  I hope that we haven't caused too much health anxiety for people with that. I'm aware that there's a number of vectors. Everybody can get worried about how much is, oh my God, I've got them, not even the food that I need to be worried about, it's what it's wrapped in. I had this story, the funny story from a friend that was telling me about, he goes to a farmer's market and he wants to get raw milk and the raw milk's in glass bottles and it's got a cap on it, you know, there's no point, there's any plastic anywhere near it. And he asked the farmer about how they get the milk from the cows. And he's an automatic pumping machine, which runs it through plastic pipes. He's like, that's warm milk going through a plastic pipe. Even the most psychedelic progressive farmer's market in the world, where you think, you know, this is basically, you might as well have sort of pumped the cow into a steel bucket and poured it into this.

• 1:09:24Chris Williamson?

  It's like, yeah, some plastic pipes were in between.

• 1:09:27Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I, I can add to that story. That's, that's gonna freak you out even more. So.

• 1:09:31Chris Williamson?

  Bring it on. No one's worried enough.

• 1:09:33Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  We're talking about forever chemicals, right? And how humans don't excrete them for like years. Well, it turns out these forever chemicals are because they're in our water source, right? Again, wastewater plants aren't treating for them, so they're concentrating in things like sludge that's used on a lot of non-organic farms. But the non-organic farms are a very close proximity to organic farms.

• 1:09:55Chris Williamson?

  What's a non-organic farm?

• 1:09:56Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Well, I just mean they're not, not, not organic, right? They're, they're not.

• 1:10:00Chris Williamson?

  Oh, right. Okay.

• 1:10:00Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So, so, so organic farms are not technically supposed to use sludge.

• 1:10:04Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 1:10:05Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right? So which includes like wastewater as fertilizer.

• 1:10:08Chris Williamson?

  The wastewater and the sludge knows that this is the boundary.

• 1:10:10Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly. It gets into the soil and it leaches here, right? And so, so it's, it's actually contaminated a lot of like organic farms as well. And there was a Consumer Report study a couple of years ago that went and sampled a lot of dairy products off of shelves, like grass, grass milk, you know, the organic grass milk and just a lot of different varieties of milk. Why were they targeting milk? Well, it turns out forever chemicals, cows do excrete them, unlike humans. Cows excrete them through their milk. So when you are eating yogurt or milk or cheese, butter, I mean, these are all things

• 1:10:53Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  where you're like, you have to consider, are there forever chemicals in, in my dairy product? Because this Consumer Report found that lots of products, including the organic ones, had much, much higher levels of PFAS than are considered safe.

• 1:11:11Chris Williamson?

  Obviously, this is your sort of, one of your many new pet research obsessions. How big of a deal across the entire repertoire of things that people need to be worried about? How highly do you rank the plastics, microplastics, endocrine disruptors?

• 1:11:28Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I do, I do rank them. Highly, I think the highest would be, you know, exercising consistently, you know, five, five days a week, not being overweight, obese, trying to, trying to eat a more whole foods diet. But that includes like, it's up there after, after those things because I do think there's insidious damage that's happening. We are accumulating them in our organs. We're starting to now unpack that this is actually affecting human health. And there are a few high level things that we can do to minimize our exposure that we've discussed. Focusing on those few high level things, the water filters, you know, trying to not heat the plastic, trying to like minimize the single use plastics

• 1:12:12Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  that you're using. It's not going to be, you know, a hundred percent, but minimize it as much as you can. You're doing a lot if you can do that, right? I do think that like, you don't want to become a manic person about it because chronic stress is bad for you. So, so that's like, you have to kind of like draw the line and live your life. Like I've kind of done that myself, where it's like, okay, like I'm not, I'm, it's imperfect, but I'm going to do what I can. And I know that that's going to have a good impact, especially if I'm exercising and I'm eating healthy and I'm trying to do all the other things that are like the most important, getting my micronutrients, like, like doing those things. You know, at the end of the day, it's going to be okay.

• 1:12:50Chris Williamson?

  Okay. You said you were doing some research into ultra processed foods as well. I have been learning about this grass, G R A S loophole thing. Is this the pebble at the top of the avalanche that's sort of wrecked the American food system? Is that why there's a big issue?

• 1:13:09Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  No, short answer.

• 1:13:11Chris Williamson?

  Good.

• 1:13:12Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I know. It's, it can be confusing. So, so you're talking about generally recognized as safe, grass. And that's, you mentioned loophole, but let's take a step back. Before the loophole, there was just grass. There was the generally recognized as safe. And this has been around since like the early 1900s. And it's essentially thing, things can go into the food, our food supply that are generally recognized as safe. So it was meant to be, you know, for things like vinegar or salt, right? Like not these chemicals that we have to have a lot of testing and FDA has to look at all this testing. Well, generally recognized as safe back then was something you did have to submit to the FDA for review.

• 1:13:56Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  And then FDA would look over whatever data you gave them if you're a manufacturing company and they'd say, okay, it looks like it's safe. The loophole, it came about, and I think it was like the late 1990s, like 1997. And that was like, that basically said, okay, you manufacturers no longer have to submit anything to the FDA for review. They can just review it internally and decide whether or not it's safe. So it kind of gave, and there's a lot of controversy over this. There's a lot of, you know, you give a lot of freedom to manufacturers who obviously have a conflict of interest because they want to sell their products and they can kind of decide whether or not something is generally recognized as safe.

• 1:14:41Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  With respect to the, the ultra-processed foods in general, you know, there's processed foods and then there's ultra-processed foods, right? Like what, what, what's the difference? So processed foods typically, like this is minimal processing. This is something like making oats, something where you want to increase the bioavailability of nutrients, which, you know, oats increases the bioavailability of some of the minerals and stuff. Or chopping and freezing fruits and vegetables, like frozen fruits and vegetables that you can buy in the

• 1:15:13Chris Williamson?

  Every food has some form of processing in it unless you're eating it actually raw from the ground.

• 1:15:18Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly. So it's very minimal, right? The, the ultra-processing, the ultra-processed foods or UPFs, as there sometimes you'll see them called UPFs, these are foods that have a lot of steps of processing. And typically, the purpose of these foods is convenience. It's taste, improving taste, improving texture and, you know, flavor, improving appearance, colors.

• 1:15:45Chris Williamson?

  Shelf life.

• 1:15:46Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Shelf life, exactly. So, so, so what ends up happening, these types of foods end up having a lot of Calories, there are a lot of added sugar. They have a lot of chemicals that may make it taste really good, texture really good. They'll have additives that will extend the shelf life. And they'll have a lot of colors, so you can find them in candies, cereals, you know, a lot of junk food, cookies, chips, crackers, already flavored yogurts, protein bars. I mean, there are a lot of, there's a lot of packaged types of food. It's like this is, you know, fast foods, already prepared meals that you buy, long

• 1:16:27Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  list of ingredients, you know, there's over 10,000 chemicals that's in our food system in the United States, 10,000 chemicals that are in our foods. Like, that's a lot of chemicals. They're not all coming in through grass. I mean, these are chemicals, like a lot of the, for example, the, the food colorings. So you mentioned earlier in the podcast, red number three, red number 40, yellow number five, number six, blue number one. Like, these food colorings have been around for a long time in our foods. And just recently now, the FDA has banned red number three from our foods in the United States because it's a carcinogen, it's a known carcinogen. And, you know, this is, I think they have like two years or so to, to actually, manufacturers

• 1:17:09Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  have two years to get it off the shelf, so until like 2027 or something like that. But, you know, these food colorings are not only known carcinogens, they're also known mutagens, so those are things that damage DNA, it's a precursor for something to become a carcinogen. They also, there's a lot of human data that it affects the brain. These colors affect the brain, they cause and exacerbate hyperactivity, impulse control. So, and it-

• 1:17:37Chris Williamson?

  How robust is the evidence on this?

• 1:17:40Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I would say there's varying, it, it appears, a lot of the studies are done in children and adolescents, and there's lots of data out there. Oftentimes, the randomized controlled trials that are done give all of the colors, so it's not just like one, but they give all of the colors. And children seem to have varying sensitivities to them. So there's individual variation.

• 1:18:03Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:18:03Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  But it's pretty robust that a large subset of children and adolescents are affected by these, and if you think about by these colors that are in all the foods that are targeted to children and adolescents.

• 1:18:16Chris Williamson?

  So we made a capsule version of Neutonic and we got rid of the caffeine and the orthenine and we added in some Bacopamunarian, Ginkgo Biloba. And I didn't realize this, but colored capsules were around in the 90s. It's like, huh, capsules, the most boring thing in the world. What can we do to make them a little bit more visually exciting, turn them into sort of a marketing material, also create a little bit of an expectation effect in there as well. Why don't we use colored capsules? That'd be great. It's like, well, pills, red pill. If we make a red pill, people are going to think the jokes write themselves, Matrix, we did this Matrix theme. And we're there on the launch shoot and Harry, the guy that runs the ops for Neutonic, came up and he was like, mate, got some, uh, some good news and got some bad news about, about the capsules. It's like, what's up?

• 1:19:01Chris Williamson?

  They look great. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're colored with red 40. And I was like, right, you're telling me that the productivity focus product that we've tried to design has something that's been linked to ADHD in children? And it's, it's literally encased in ADHD causing color. Yeah. And he's like, but, but we've got these vegan capsules. Okay, that's interesting. Let me have a look. He gets them out, I was like, that's brown, that's brown, that's a brown color. What we have here on set is this beautiful sort of bright red thing, because red 40 turns things bright red. So we had to get custom beetroot colored capsules. That was the way that we got around it, because I wasn't prepared to do the brown one, I wasn't prepared to do the red 40 one.

• 1:19:45Chris Williamson?

  So we ended up having to get, we've got like some absurd number of empty beetroot colored capsules waiting to be filled for the next however long that we keep on selling these things. But that was what we, the hoop that we had to jump through in order to be able to sort of skirt around trying to avoid red 40, even in just the coloring of a capsule. It's crazy.

• 1:20:04Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Precisely. I mean, there are ways around it, right? Like beetroot, spinach, turmeric, like these can color things and, and you can find a lot of healthier, quote unquote healthier, they're still processed foods. We talk about that, get more into that in a minute, but you know, there are at least, you're not having chemicals that are known carcinogens that are known to disrupt cognitive function to be, you know, to exacerbate and play a role in impulsive control, impulse control and impulsivity and like not being able to focus and pay attention, right?

• 1:20:35Chris Williamson?

  Trans fats were in there too, weren't they?

• 1:20:37Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  This is incredible. This is incredible because trans fats were actually added through the original grass, generally recognized as safe. They were added in the early 1900s, something like 1911. They were added to our food supply. And remember, trans fats, there was a big push for trans fats dating, I mean, certainly back into like the 1950s was like when it really started to become sort of popular. But even before that, they were added to our food supply because they were thought to be the quote unquote healthier alternative. Because they didn't raise, they weren't saturated fat and therefore didn't raise LDL

• 1:21:18Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  cholesterol. Okay. But the problem is, is that, so trans fats, they all have, they're fatty acid chains that have double bonds between the carbons. Okay. Saturated fat doesn't have any double bonds. And this is really important because it changes the structure of the fat when it's incorporated into our cells. So we eat fat and it's broken down into fatty acids. These fatty acids get taken up into new cells that we make in our body. All of our cells that we're making that are new, red blood cells, neurons, the cells that are lining our blood vessels and our arteries, they're endothelial cells. The reason this is important is because fatty acids that are taken up into those cells

• 1:22:02Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  are making up the membrane. Okay. So a cell, if you think about like a cell as a circle, has this membrane and the membrane is like movable, it's flexible. So, and you want that to be flexible because that's how we transport nutrients in the cell. There's transporters, there's receptors that bind to hormones. They bind to neurotransmitters. The cell needs to be flexible for those things to happen and to be correct. It affects the function of the cell. So when you have trans fats, so saturated fat is like a single bond, same with unsaturated fat, a single bond, it's bendable, it's bendable, it's like able to bend and move, right? Trans fats have these double bonds and make it really stiff, like it doesn't

• 1:22:45Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  move, it's a very stiff structure. So when they get incorporated into our cell membranes, it stiffens our cells. It totally changes like the flexibility of it. And when that happens in the endothelial cells that line our blood vessels and our arteries, it causes them to become stiff. So our blood vessels can't dilate as well, like vasodilation, right? It causes cardiovascular disease, it affects hypertension, it's hugely, hugely bad for the heart. And, you know, this is something that it took, so the FDA, I think it was like in 2006, they started to go, hmm, maybe not so good. And finally in 2015, they were like, okay, we're gonna take this out, this is no longer allowed in the food

• 1:23:28Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  supply, you know, but we gotta give, we gotta give manufacturers some time to get it off the shelves. So finally in 2018, it was off the shelves. We're talking 100 years, over 100 years, that this stuff was in our food supply, causes cardiovascular disease. It didn't, it, it, it doesn't take that much time to figure out, yes, cardiovascular disease takes decades to develop, but does it take 10 decades to figure that out? No. You know, so that was like, trans fats is like the, the, the golden example of, you know, how things get into the food, they're thought to be safe, and it takes how many decades before we realize, oh, they're actually responsible for a lot of deaths.

• 1:24:12Chris Williamson?

  Wild that that was still in food in 2017.

• 1:24:15Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah, it is, it is. And, you know, the, the, the trans fats, you know, thankfully they're out of our food now, but there's other chemicals, right? I mentioned there's 10,000 chemicals in foods. So the ultra-processed foods, another one that's really, a big one is nitrates. So nitrates are in-

• 1:24:31Chris Williamson?

  Not nitrates.

• 1:24:33Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Okay, glad you mentioned that. Let's discuss. So.

• 1:24:35Chris Williamson?

  Right, brilliant.

• 1:24:37Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Nitrites are found in processed meats, right? So they're a preservative. They're found in bacon, in, you know, ham, lunch meats, hot dogs, like, things like that, right? They can be converted, you know, when we digest them, they can be converted in our gut to nitrosamines. And these are carcinogens. And this is why processed meats has been classified sort of as a carcinogen. Because there's, there's.

• 1:25:04Chris Williamson?

  Bacon?

• 1:25:05Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Bacon with, yeah. Especially when you're cooking it at like a high temperature, you can convert it to the nitrosamines as well. So nitrites, bacon with nitrites can be unhealthy because of the.

• 1:25:17Chris Williamson?

  How do you know if your bacon's got nitrites in it?

• 1:25:19Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Well, there's a lot of labels out there on bacon that says it's uncured. So cure, they usually cure it with nitrites.

• 1:25:26Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so uncured bacon would be nitrite free?

• 1:25:30Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Well, the, so here's the question, and it comes back to nitrites. Oftentimes, the bacon.

• 1:25:35Chris Williamson?

  Is this the BPA BPS thing all over again?

• 1:25:37Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Hmm, not necessarily.

• 1:25:39Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 1:25:39Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Not necessarily. I think there's a silver lining. The nitrates, you know, are something that's found in plants. They're in vegetables, they're in greens, they're, you know, all over in nature. They can also be converted into nitrites and then ultimately nitrosamines. However, vitamin C prevents the conversion. So vitamin C is also found in plants, a package together. So that's why when you eat, you know, a lot of plants, or like beets have a lot of nitrates. You know, beet, beet, beetroot juice extract is high in nitrates, but it's also high in vitamin C.

• 1:26:17Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:26:17Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  And when you have the vitamin C there, it converts the nitrates into nitric oxide.

• 1:26:22Chris Williamson?

  So if I have a Barocca while I have my bacon?

• 1:26:26Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly, a lot of vitamin C.

• 1:26:27Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:27Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  While you're taking your bacon in.

• 1:26:29Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:26:29Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So the, the conversion, it, it basically shifts it towards nitric oxide, which is actually good for your blood vessels. It's a vasodilator, right? There are a lot of bacons that will say, say no nitrites, but they'll have like celery powder. I don't know how much vitamin C is in celery powder extract. My, I would assume not that much, but make sure you're like eating some pomegranate with your bacon or something high in vitamin C.

• 1:26:52Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:26:52Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  That helps the conversion.

• 1:26:53Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:26:53Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So there's, yeah.

• 1:26:54Chris Williamson?

  What about the? Concerns with added sugar.

• 1:26:58Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly. Yeah. So we talked about there's a lot of chemicals in foods and you know, there's it's 10,000 chemicals. So you can figure out how many of those may be detrimental to health. I would say one of the biggest problem with ultra-processed foods is the added sugar. And when we say added sugar, we mean not sugar, like if you if you're eating an apple, right? It's got like natural sugar in in that that's bound to a fiber matrix. We're talking about adding table sugar, like sucrose, glucose and fructose, 50% mixture of each into it.

• 1:27:32Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Foods have tons and tons of added sugar, processed ultra-processed foods have tons and tons of added sugar. And that's part of the hyper palatability of them, right? It's it what what's make them taste good. Lot, there's a lot of downstream problems with the added sugar, right? On the brain, on overeating. So there was actually a really good study that was published a couple of years ago out of the NIH from Kevin Hall's lab. And he took the same group of people and gave them either an ultra-processed foods diet or a whole foods diet. And these diet, he gave the same same group, the same diet. So like the same people had each diet with a washout period and then they measured a bunch of things, right? So you're not looking at a lot of individual variability here, right? It's called a crossover trial design.

• 1:28:18Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So he gave these, um, so what so what happened is these these two two groups. So the whole foods versus the ultra-processed, right?

• 1:28:26Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Same number of calories in the food, same number of, um, uh, same amount of sodium, same amount of energy density. There were not similar amounts of added sugar. So the ultra-processed foods had like 50% more added sugar. Fiber was the same, but only because they gave the ultra-processed food group drinks with like Metamucil or something, right? Like they had to give them fiber because essentially processed foods have no fiber, right? And then protein was mostly similar. There was a little bit more in the whole foods group than the ultra-processed foods group. But the study basically gave these people, like, again, equivalent amounts of, like, calories and stuff. And so the total sugars

• 1:29:08Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  were the same. So the fruits and stuff had sugar, but it was the added sugar that was different, right? He gave these people these meals that they came into like a metabolic ward to eat, you know, and they were basically given 60 minutes to eat their meal. So they could eat as much as they wanted, or as little as they wanted. So they didn't, like, make them eat a certain amount. The point was to see if they were going to overconsume, overeat, right? Turns out, when they were eating the ultra-processed foods, people, on average, ate 500 calories more than eating the whole foods diet. So this was 500 calories

• 1:29:45Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  more per week. And so they ended up gaining two pounds more on, they actually gained two pounds if they're eating ultra-processed foods, and they lost two pounds if they're eating whole foods. And this was-

• 1:30:00Chris Williamson?

  From zero.

• 1:30:01Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  From their baseline, from their baseline, yeah. And this was for the two week that the trial happened. So if you think about, that's a pound per week they were gaining, that's four pounds a month. So four times 12 is 48. That's 48 pounds a year.

• 1:30:13Chris Williamson?

  It couldn't have been 500 calories a week if they gained a pound a week.

• 1:30:16Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Sorry, it was 500 calories per two weeks.

• 1:30:18Chris Williamson?

  Yes. No, that also can't be right. 500 calories-

• 1:30:21Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Per meal, sorry. Yes. They were eating 500 calories more per meal-

• 1:30:25Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:30:26Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  But they were gaining two pounds more per two weeks, or one pound per week.

• 1:30:30Chris Williamson?

  Yes. So it was a 3,500 surplus per week.

• 1:30:33Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yes.

• 1:30:34Chris Williamson?

  It was 500 a day.

• 1:30:35Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly. Because it was 500 per meal.

• 1:30:36Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:30:37Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right. So they were eating, you know, overeating, and the question is, why were they overeating, right? And there's probably a lot of reasons for that. You know, one is they weren't having, they weren't being satiated. So refined, added sugar basically disrupts hormones. It disrupts the hormones that are involved in satiation, like leptin, ghrelin's, a hunger hormone. So like, those things were being disrupted in those individuals. And, you know- The question is, is like, if you're eating a refined sugar diet, if you're eating a lot of ultra-processed foods, you're probably eating more of the foods, right? Why is that? Well, you're not being satiated for one. Two, even though there was less protein in the ultra-processed foods, it seemed as though

• 1:31:19Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  people were eating more, almost to get their protein needs.

• 1:31:23Chris Williamson?

  Oh, that's so interesting.

• 1:31:25Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah. Have you heard of the protein leverage hypothesis?

• 1:31:27Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 1:31:28Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It was Stephen Simpson, Simpson, I think, was the, one of the main scientists involved in, in this hypothesis. And essentially, what it is, is that your body like needs a certain amount of protein per day to like maintain physiological functions. And so, so he hypothesized that no matter what, if you were eating foods that were low in protein, you were going to overeat because you had to like maintain this amount of protein that your body really needs, right? And so him and some of his colleagues have done some randomized controlled trials, sort of proving this hypothesis, where it's like you can give people lower protein, same, you know, everything else, but they will overconsume if they have the lower protein just to kind of like get up to that protein need.

• 1:32:13Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So that's another possibility. Again, if you're eating a lot of ultra-processed foods, they're low in protein, protein is satiating for one, right? That's also something to consider. But it does seem as though like, there's like, it's interesting, there might be this protein leverage hypothesis that might be partly explaining some of this as well, because it's like your body's wanting to meet the protein needs for just maintaining a lot of different physiological functions that require protein.

• 1:32:40Chris Williamson?

  How much good research has been done? That, that study sounds pretty impressive, but is primarily the mechanism that I think most people come to agree on when it comes to ultra-processed foods, hyper-palatable, calorie-dense, easier to eat more, and per bite tends to be more calorific, so it's easier to gain weight, but multiple different ways that it's easier to gain weight. When it comes to the ultra-processed foods, what's in them, how they affect us, outside of the palatability and the calorie density, what else is going on that seems to be evidence-based that's something that we should be concerned about?

• 1:33:17Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah, well, I think that partly, part of it is that people are consuming more of it, of it because they're not satiated, right? It's disrupting the hormones, which I mentioned. So that is the one thing to consider.

• 1:33:29Chris Williamson?

  Is that the biggest mover in all of this?

• 1:33:31Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Um, for weight gain, I would say it is because like weight gain really is, comes down to like eating, eating more calories and right, calories in, calories out makes, makes a big difference. But there's other factors at play here that I think really come down to the added sugar. Right? So added sugar affects so many different things in the body. Everything from, you know, hormone production to cognition. So hormones, testosterone. I know you're interested in testosterone. There was a pretty classic study that was done that showed that men, and this was a huge age range and, you know, we're talking young men that were like 17 all the way up to like older adults. So young adults, middle aged

• 1:34:15Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  adults, older adults, if they consumed 75 grams of added sugar. So that would be like a medium sized donut and the Coke.

• 1:34:24Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:34:25Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Not out of this, like people do that all the time.

• 1:34:27Chris Williamson?

  Seventy five grams sounds like so much, but when you put it in terms of a donut and a Coke.

• 1:34:33Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  That's it. It's not. Right. There's, there's a lot of Americans eating a standard American diet and eating donuts with Coke or donuts with coffee and a bunch of added sugar in their coffee. Right? So it actually is something that I would say is pretty practical in terms of what people are consuming. And we can actually talk about what people are consuming in terms of added sugar, but 75 grams of added sugar. And this caused a 25% decrease in their circulating testosterone within a two hour range. So it's obviously transient, but nonetheless, 25% less. That's significant.

• 1:35:06Chris Williamson?

  Chipping away at that grazing throughout the day.

• 1:35:08Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Every day. Exactly. And imagine if people are eating, I mean, if that's, if their whole diet is nothing but ultra processed foods, right? So you're talking, you know, in that study with Kevin Hall, they actually calculated how much it costs to have the whole foods diet versus the ultra processed food diet. And it was $45 more.

• 1:35:29Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  A week for the ultra, sorry, the Whole Foods diet. So that that's significant. It adds up over like a month, right? So we're talking what $180 a month?

• 1:35:39Chris Williamson?

  It's expensive to be healthy.

• 1:35:40Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  For a lot of people, that makes a difference. And so it's like economically, your people are economically incentivized to eat ultra-processed foods because they're cheaper.

• 1:35:50Chris Williamson?

  There's also, this is Cali Means, this whole thing, and Vani Haris as well, about whatever the food stamp system is called.

• 1:35:58Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Oh, right. Snap?

• 1:36:00Chris Williamson?

  Yes, Snap. The sorts of foods that tend to be available on Snap.

• 1:36:06Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right.

• 1:36:07Chris Williamson?

  Trying to eat in a more healthy manner on that is very difficult.

• 1:36:11Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right.

• 1:36:11Chris Williamson?

  More difficult. So what you mentioned there about what are Americans eating? Typically, what what are they putting in their bodies?

• 1:36:19Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I mean, it's it's ultra-processed foods. So so the refined sugar, or I'm calling it refined sugar, it's really added sugar also, it's kind of interchangeably. But, you know, ultimately, people are eating 13% of their daily caloric intake is coming from added sugar. That's a lot, 2,000 calorie a day, if you just consider that like on average. That's a lot of coming from sugar. In fact, guidelines. So the the guidelines for like the strictest guidelines suggest no more than 5% of your total daily caloric intake coming from added sugar. So that would be like no more than 25 grams a day, 5%. People are eating 13% of their total calorie intake from added sugar.

• 1:37:03Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So added sugar is also affecting, probably what's happening also is there's there's there's a mechanism there. It's hyper palatable. It tastes good. You know, people want things that taste good. But there's an addictive aspect there as well. And that's that's been shown in certainly a lot of animal studies, but also some human data as well. So there's been studies showing that if if people eat added sugar, it activates dopamine reward pathways in the brain, in the striatum, more than like eating fat, for example. So there was a study that compared fat versus added sugar. And so it's activating these dopamine reward pathways. Animal studies have found that it's activating dopamine reward pathways,

• 1:37:45Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  much like addictive drugs do, but to a much milder degree, of course. So what I'm what I'm saying is that you can have addictive drugs like cocaine, methamphetamine, nicotine will will activate these dopamine reward pathways in parts of the brain. Sugar activates them too, to a much milder degree, of course. But, you know, in animal studies, they'll they'll keep going back for the sugar like this addictive thing, right? Now, again, you got to take the animal studies with a grain of salt because we are not rodents. But there is human evidence that these pathways are being activated in our brain with added sugar. And there's also evidence that if you look at people that are obese, you know, the obesogenic diet is largely consists of a lot of added sugar.

• 1:38:26Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Well, people that are obese have a lower density of dopamine two receptors, D two receptors, really indicative of something called tolerance. So what happens if you keep activating the dopamine reward pathway is that your body, as a adaptive response, a feedback to it goes,

• 1:38:42Chris Williamson?

  Obituates.

• 1:38:43Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I don't need so many dopamine receptor because I had a lot of that signal coming in, right? But what ends up happening is when you have fewer of those receptors, then the little bit of dopamine that you have, you're not feeling it as much. It's you need more and more, right? And so, you know, you kind of connect the dots here. And I would say certainly we need more evidence in the human arena on the, you know, potential addictive properties of added sugar. However, what we do have is a lot of animal evidence and, you know, some human evidence. And I think that it really indicates that there is, it's affecting reward pathways, it's affecting our dopamine system. And that's, you know, unhealthy.

• 1:39:25Chris Williamson?

  How legitimate are the links to cancer when it comes to ultra-processed foods and sugar?

• 1:39:30Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I, you know, there's a lot of ways to get there. So I'll give you, you know, obviously, when you, when you talk to a scientist, like the the most robust evidence is, well, we need a randomized controlled trial. We need a proof causation, right? Well, you're never going to get that because it takes decades for cancer to, you know. Rear its ugly head and that's like too expensive of trial. But the evidence that we do have, um, you know, for one, people that are obese tend to eat more added sugar. I mean, that's a fact. The obese people are eating added sugar.

• 1:40:05Chris Williamson?

  As a propulsion.

• 1:40:06Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yes. Yeah.

• 1:40:07Chris Williamson?

  Cause they'll eat more of everything.

• 1:40:09Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  They're eating, they're eating more processed, ultra-processed foods, which are higher in added sugar, don't have a fiber matrix. You know, the way sugar is metabolized when you're, when it's packaged in with fruit is very different than added sugar in ultra-processed foods, which has no fiber matrix. And so what happens when it has a fiber matrix is it slows the metabolism of it. It really slows it down. It's not this big bolus. For one, your gut isn't seeing a big bolus of it, which causes, you know, it actually causes intestinal permeability and that causes inflammatory molecules to leach into your bloodstream. Inflammation is a major driver of aging, cancer.

• 1:40:52Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It causes damage to DNA. So all those things happen, right? And there've been studies that have shown that men, young men that consume, it's like 20 ounces of a sugar sweetened beverage a day for three weeks. Okay. And these are healthy young men. They're consuming like, like a big, like Coke, right? Something like that. After three weeks, their inflammatory biomarkers go up like a hundred percent, like a hundred percent. So that's causing inflammation in healthy, just healthy young men. Again, inflammation is something that is involved in driving cancer. We know that obesity is very intimately linked to cancers. There's like 13 different cancers that obesity is known to play a role in.

• 1:41:37Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  There's just a lot of evidence that lifestyle factors like eating ultra-processed foods, like being overweight obese, like these are factors that can dramatically reduce cancer incidents if they are, you know, reduced. If you reduce your ultra-processed foods, if you reduce your added sugar and lose weight, like these are things that are, that are known. So I do think that it's pretty, pretty strong link. And again, it's multiple ways that it's happening. It's not just like, you know, there's, there's through the obesity, right? Mechanism, but it's also causing, you know, there's the insulin sensitivity and insulin production and just all sorts of things that are, that are at play here.

• 1:42:18Chris Williamson?

  I think it's important to separate out the obesity side from what else is going on. Because lots of people that listen to the podcast will probably have a good indication of, well, where's my body weight at? And I probably go to the gym and I do all the rest of this stuff. What else is happening? How else can I motivate myself to pick the healthier option? Even if I know that my waistline isn't going to be the determining factor for this? I'm not, obesity isn't that much of a risk for me. So what is it that could be happening? So I think it's interesting to sort of break it apart like that. I guess another area that I'm particularly interested in is brain health and energy levels when it comes to the impact of the ultra processed foods, the added sugar, stuff like that.

• 1:43:01Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  And that's probably one of the biggest areas that it also has an impact on, you know, so if you're, if you're eating a lot of added sugar, then, you know, you can have higher than, you can basically be on the high end of the normal range for blood glucose levels. So you're within the normal range, but on the higher end, right? So you're not diabetic. So you might think, oh, I don't have diabetes. I'm fine. I'm still within the normal range. But there are studies showing that people on the high end of the normal range have increased atrophy in the hippocampus part of their brain. That's involved in learning and memory. And they have higher atrophy in the amygdala part of their brain that's involved in emotional regulation compared to people on the lower end have, you know,

• 1:43:44Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  blood glucose levels in the lower end of the normal range. So that's an association study, right? There's also-

• 1:43:50Chris Williamson?

  Angry and forgetful.

• 1:43:53Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right. But, but again, it's association study. There's also other studies showing that higher blood glucose levels are associated with increased, like 54% risk, increased risk for vascular dementia. So, so glucose, what it's doing, when you, when you have a constant intake of glucose, and that glucose, let's say you're not exercising enough to have that glucose get to get disposed into your muscle, which is really where you want it, right? You want it to go, gets taken up into your muscle. Exercise really helps with that. So when you exercise, you cause a lot of glucose transporters to come up to your muscle, which opens up the gates to allow glucose in. You want it to go to your muscle instead of your adipose tissue.

• 1:44:36Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  If that doesn't happen, if you're not exercising enough, the glucose will stay around in your bloodstream. And what happens is, yes, there's an instant response and all that metabolic stuff. But there's also something that happens that, that's called the Maillard reaction. And it's where glucose reacts with lipids. It reacts with DNA in your body, it reacts with proteins, and damages them. And when it reacts with proteins, like for example collagen, lining your, your pericardium, surrounding your heart, your myocardium surrounding your heart, lining your blood vessels. It causes the collagen to become stiff. It changes the properties of the protein. It makes them stiff, kind of like trans fats. Actually, that's a really good analogy. Didn't think about that. But it's really kind of a similar thing.

• 1:45:21Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It causes your blood vessels to become stiff. It causes your, the, the tissue surrounding your heart to become stiff. And that plays a major role in the stiffening of the heart with age, which affects, you know, it affects cardiovascular disease risk, right? So you're, you're talking about just an accumulation of these, this, this Maillard reaction. What happens is it, it forms something called advanced glycation end products. And that's what is basically stiffening the proteins like collagen, which are around forever. You don't, your, your collagen surrounding your heart and it's there. And, you know, you don't want to make it stiffer, right? So.

• 1:45:59Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  That's something to consider as well as the fact that it is affecting cognition and the brain as well. So we talked about brain aging. It causes inflammation. So for example, I mentioned the, the study of, of men that consumed the, the sort of 20 ounce sugar sweetened beverage and they had 100% increase in their inflammatory markers after three weeks. Well, inflammation is essentially is, is those molecules are getting into the brain, crossing over the blood brain barrier and they're getting into the brain. It was thought for a long time that inflammatory molecules don't cross the blood brain barrier, but that years ago was debunked. We now know a lot of cytokines and inflammatory things are crossing the blood brain barrier. And when they get into the brain, they are doing

• 1:46:42Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  a variety of things. For one, they're affecting mood immediately. And we know that for a fact, we know causally. You can take a healthy person and inject them with lipopolysaccharide, which is something that's, it's found in our gut. It's a, it's a component of bacterial membranes. We have a lot of bacteria in our gut, makes up our microbiome. When you have leaky gut, intestinal permeability, lipopolysaccharide gets into your circulation. Refined sugar does do that. You can inject normal people, normal healthy people with lipopolysaccharide or placebo, which is saline, and it causes massive inflammation. Okay. Like, like what I just talked about with a sugar sweetened beverage. And those people then end up getting depressive symptoms. So it plays a role in their, their mood. But if you blunt that

• 1:47:27Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  inflammatory response with something like EPA, which is a component of omega three, it's one of the omega three fatty acids, it doesn't cause the depressive mood. So inflammation does affect mood. We also know that when you have a high inflammatory state, which I just gave a lot of evidence for in terms of added sugar, it changes the metabolism of tryptophan. Tryptophan is an essential amino acid we get from our diet. It's in proteins. It, it's a precursor for serotonin. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that's involved in cognition, executive function. It's involved in mood. What inflammation does is it causes tryptophan instead of being converted into serotonin, it causes it to be converted into something called chenurane,

• 1:48:12Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  which is involved in inflammation. It's basically your body, your body's going, oh, I'm inflamed. I've got a pathogen. Okay, there's no pathogen. It's actually just added sugar, too much added sugar, right? Constantly. And so your body thinks it's a pathogen and so it's trying to then make anything it can to activate immune cells to take care of the pathogen, right? But the problem is, is that it's not a pathogen. So chenurane helps with that whole activating the immune system. But also what it does is as it's metabolized, it can form something called quinolinic acid, which is a neurotoxin, and it's also associated with depression. So you're talking about inflammation now affecting,

• 1:48:52Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  you know, key metabolic processes that are important for cognition, executive function, mood, and dampening those processes, right? So you're, you're, you can immediately have an effect on cognition. I mean, you, you get like a quick sugar high, but boy, does that go away pretty quick, right? I mean, it's like you immediately start to feel like that sort of-

• 1:49:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, if you wanted to reliably make your mental performance bad, having a donut and a Coke an hour before you were supposed to do something important is probably a pretty good way to do it.

• 1:49:22Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Exactly. It's almost like when you're sick, how you feel, right? You feel foggy, brain foggy, because your, your inflammation, your immune system's activated.

• 1:49:29Chris Williamson?

  You've mentioned a couple of times today about leaky gut permeability. At a high level, what can people do? I've heard, I've heard the words, I kind of understand what it means. It's kind of in the name. What can people do to rebuild their gut and make it less leaky?

• 1:49:45Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Well, you know, leaky gut is kind of the, the common word, the, the real, it's intestinal permeability. And essentially what it is, is you have tight junctions that are holding your, your endothelial cells that line your intestine together and they sort of open up, right? And allow- Basically, they allow these LPS and cytokines and stuff to go into your circulation and cause inflammation. Essentially, there's a variety of factors that can increase intestinal permeability. Obviously, there's genetic factors at play as well. People have celiac, I mean, that's a big problem, and Crohn's disease, inflammatory bowel disease, like, all those things are sort of chronic issues that do cause intestinal permeability. But generally speaking, an obesogenic diet, so the worst thing you can do is have a diet

• 1:50:27Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  high in a lot of fats, particularly saturated fat, combined with refined sugar. So think like ice cream, right? Like, anything that's really high in saturated fat plus refined sugar can cause intestinal permeability. Obesity itself can play a role in that as well. Binge drinking is another one. Chronic stress, so psychological stress, anything like relationship stress, financial stress, emotional stress, work-related. Stress itself, releasing stress hormones, causes intestinal permeability. There have been studies on that. They took people that were about to give a presentation when you're stressed. In fact, if they would have measured mine before the podcast, they would have been like, oh, she's got intestinal permeability, got the corticotropin-releasing hormone, but stress also does it.

• 1:51:12Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So really, again, it comes down to fiber plays an important role in preventing intestinal permeability for a couple of reasons. One, 70% of the energy used by your gut is called butyrate. Butyrate is made from bacteria in your gut by fermenting that fermentable type of fiber I was talking about. So things that are high in pectins, that's a type of fermentable fiber, it'll be berries or apples with the skin on it, or inulin, so onions, asparagus, or the mushrooms, so the beta-glucans, mushrooms, oats. Basically, eating a lot of fermentable fiber.

• 1:51:53Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Increases butyrate production really helps keep your gut healthy and prevent intestinal permeability. But I think the main thing really is you wanna, you wanna make sure you're eating whole foods. So fruits, vegetables, lean meats, poultry, fish, like a whole foods diet. Ultra processed food diet increases intestinal permeability. And then you also wanna make sure that you're, you're getting that, that fermentable fiber as well. Right. Because you wanna give yourself the butyrate production. So those are, those are, I think, some of the ma- major drivers of, you know, preventing intestinal permeability.

• 1:52:30Chris Williamson?

  Lots of people are gonna be hearing about this and have been eating processed foods forever. Everyone has an idea in the back of their mind that when you're faced with the apple and a Twinkie, that the apple's gonna be that of you. But, you know, some people have been moving through different levels of wealth. Some people have been moving through different levels of convenience. Some people are sort of really understanding their health journey. Other people are on the road so much that they have sort of these limitations. No one's gonna be militant about it all of the time. Inevitably, you're going to go to a sports match and like, what are you gonna do? This like, you're not, you haven't pre-cooked your rice and beef and taken it in with you. So what are the best ways to mitigate the impact of ultra processed foods?

• 1:53:15Chris Williamson?

  Given sort of a typical way that people are going to exist in the world, how much can it be offset?

• 1:53:21Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I mean, I think, I think to answer your question is like, you're, it kinda goes back to the imperfect avoidance, right? Like, you're gonna do what you can. And most of the time, when you're at home and in an environment where you can eat whole foods, do some meal prep on weekends. You know, do what you can to kinda make it more convenient for you to have whole foods. You're gonna, you're gonna do that. And then when you're traveling or you're going out to have fun at a stadium or whatever, you're gonna live your life and have fun. And like, have, have the ultra processed foods, right? Because if you're, if you're 80% of the time doing it the right way, you're really doing, you're doing good. I think exercise to, to really answer your question is, it's the, it's the forgiver of all, most of our sins, basically.

• 1:54:04Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So, you know, if you are, if you are exercising and it is a part of your. Personal hygiene, you do it every, you're doing it almost every day to some degree. You are, you are mitigating, you know, so the added sugar component, right? You're getting glucose and bringing it into your muscle. You're improving cognition in so many different ways. Exercise plays a role in, in improving cognition, not only in the short term, but in the long term. Your, um, you know, exercise also increases butyrate product, um, butyrate producing bacteria independent of diet. So exercise is actually a stress on the body, on the brain, on the gut. And it actually very, very transiently causes intestinal permeability.

• 1:54:45Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  But as an adaptation, like exercise does adaptations, it does cardiovascular adaptations. Your brain adapts, everything's, you know, adapting. Um, your, your gut actually increases the production of butyrate producing bacteria. So that the next time you exercise, guess what? You have more butyrate around to like, really help, help the, um, your gut be more robust. So I think that there's like, you could just come up with like every explanation why exercise is going to be beneficial for X, Y, or Z unhealthy thing that you do. And it's going to be like, okay, at the end of the day, I am, I am getting that exercise. I'm doing, I'm really doing a good job.

• 1:55:23Chris Williamson?

  Is there a particular type of exercise here? I'm going to guess that you're going to tell me it's high intensity again.

• 1:55:28Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Well, I mean, I think it depends on, on what you're, what you're looking for. Right? I mean, so if you're looking to build muscle mass and strength and increase testosterone more, we're going to talk about compound lifts, right? Like doing multi-joint compound types of exercises like squats and deadlifts and, you know, rows and overhead presses, shoulder presses on and on. Like that's going to help you robustly increase your muscle mass, increase your muscle strength, function and testosterone. Like those are things that are known to affect all those things. So, um, you know, if we're talking about improving cognition in the short term, like you want a quick pump, like let's say you want to remember something.

• 1:56:10Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Then we're talking a high intensity interval training session, short, like not, you don't want to like, because you can, you can do a, you know, an hour long HIIT workout and you're just drained after it, right? But there's studies showing that even like a 10 minute HIIT workout will boost cognition and memory recall. Actually, there was an interesting study where doing 30 minutes of, it wasn't necessarily high, high intensity, but you know, you're like 70%, your, your max heart rate. So you're, you're, you're moderate, getting to the high level, doing that. So learning something and then doing the 30 minute cycling workout and then having a test after like on your memory recall, it boosts memory recall. So if you really like, it's a little hack, I use it all the time. I used it today.

• 1:56:54Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Like I go through some of my material, do, do my workout. In my case, I only had 10 minutes, so I did a 10 minute high intensity workout. My favorite is the back to back tobadas, I do 16, you know, intervals. But, um, you know, that's something I use to, to boost cognition in the short term. But there's just, just so much data out there on aerobic exercise, high intensity exercise, improving cognition, increasing the number of brain cells in the brain. There was one study, I think I mentioned it last time on the podcast, this was in older adults, they did aerobic exercise for a year, they increased their, their hippocampus by like 2%. Usually they're atrophying, okay? They increased the size of it by 2%. Amazing.

• 1:57:35Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  So I, I do think like, yes, if you're someone who likes to like, you know, gain muscle, yeah, exactly. You want to, you want to gain muscle, great. There, resistance training is good for the brain too, and there are studies on that as well. But if you want to really have brain benefits and really, um, you want to have your cardio respiratory fitness, fitness improved, you have to add in some aerobic exercise in there. The most time efficient way to do it would be HIIT. Because let's say you're like, I'm not going to go run 10 miles a week, like I'm going to be lifting weights, I only have so much time in the day, right? That's where the, the high intensity interval training comes in because it's very time efficient, right? Not only that, when you are

• 1:58:20Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  When you're getting into that high intensity vigorous exercise type of workout, that's when you're making a metabolite called lactate. We've talked about this. When your body's working so hard that it has to use glucose without using it through the mitochondria. Basically, it's like you're not, you don't need oxygen. You can't get oxygen to your mitochondria quick enough to use glucose. And so you're making it, you're making energy without the mitochondria. And that makes lactate as a byproduct. Turns out it's not a byproduct. It's an active metabolite. That's like amazing. And it's getting into the brain. It's, it's been shown to increase brain derived neurotrophic factor, right? That's a very important neurotrophic factor that can improve short term memory, long term memory. It's, it staves off brain aging. It makes you feel better.

• 1:59:06Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It's involved with like neuroplasticity, you know, being able to adapt to changing. I mean, it's just that goes on and on, like you can't, like you, you want this stuff, right? And so lactase out there, it's a signaling molecule telling your brain to make it. It's an adaptation because your brain is working hard while you're working out. And so your, your body's making more.

• 1:59:21Chris Williamson?

  All of the bros that just want to do sets of eight to 14 are going, I need to sign up to Barry's bootcamp. I'm gonna have, I'm gonna be sweaty. I'm gonna have to do all of this work. But you convinced me last year and I've been doing the Norwegian four by four as much as I can remember and as much as I can tolerate since then.

• 1:59:38Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  And that's a really good workout for cardio respiratory fitness, right? Improving your VO2 max, which is really important for longevity, right? That's a big longevity marker. I mean, if you just think about like sitting here, talking, having this conversation, it requires an amount of oxygen to like breathe in and be able to utilize, right? As we get older, like even that becomes hard. So you really want to have a high level. You want to like build it up as much as you can because you're going to be pulling on it and going down as you age, right? Things like walking to your car. Have you ever seen like an older person out of breath just by like walking to their car, right? So you, VO2 max. Norwegian four by four. So this is four minutes of like the maximal intensity that you can sustain for that four minutes. This is sustainable intensity. And then you have

• 2:00:21Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  a three minute recovery, total light exercise, and then you go back at it again and you do that four times.

• 2:00:27Chris Williamson?

  Assault bike. After a year of testing, I've come to believe that the assault bike is the best place to do it.

• 2:00:34Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It's, it's actually, it assaults you. Like, it's so hard. It's, it's.

• 2:00:38Chris Williamson?

  Well, the reason, the reason I say assault bike is that with this, what you need is to be able to go very slowly, very easily. So you don't want something you need to strap into or strap out of. So a rowing machine is kind of a little bit ungainly when you've then got to go slow. The same, I guess a ski, you can pick up and put down quite easily. But running on a true form, speeding up, slowing down in that way is just so difficult. And doing it on a static bike, a carol bike or something else, fantastic. But you do have to work a little bit harder because it's just the lower half of your body.

• 2:01:08Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right.

• 2:01:08Chris Williamson?

  So my choice, my preference is bike, carol bike, great. Assault bike, kind of easier to be harder, if that makes sense.

• 2:01:18Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It does.

• 2:01:19Chris Williamson?

  But yeah, I've, I've tried.

• 2:01:20Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I agree. I, I like, I think the bike, well, I actually think the bike is harder. When I do the rower, I, on my three minutes off, I actually just end up like not really doing anything because I switch off with my husband and he'll be on. So it's like, I actually get four minutes off sometime. But yeah. But it also, it does improve cognition in the brain. That's another, you know, there's some, some research on, on that as well. Where like, at least if you're, you're being time efficient. And it doesn't have to be the Norwegian four by four. Like, like some, you could do a minute on, a minute off, do that 10 times, or you could do Tabata's, right? 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off. All of these protocols have been shown to improve, you know, two max, they've been shown to improve cognition, also like mitochondrial function. So yeah, Norwegian four by four, you're going

• 2:02:03Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  to get a little bit more of a boost because it is a longer interval. But you have to do something that you're going to consistently do, right?

• 2:02:10Chris Williamson?

  I've, I've found the four by four to be quite easy to stick to. I, it's definitely miserable because four minutes is a very long time at a high intensity. But there's a bit of me when I'm doing 20 on, 10 off, Tabata, unless it's a really demanding movement. That just think I can't, I'm not, I can't work hard enough. I can't sprint fast enough in this 20 second period and I can't recover enough in the 10 seconds to, that cadence for me, maybe it's just a psychological thing, that cadence doesn't quite seem to work in the same way.

• 2:02:43Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I get it, you know, so I, when I, when I'm really time strapped, I do, I do my Tabata, which is a 10 minute one. And I agree, it's, I typically crank up the resistance and stand while I'm doing it because I really have to get my heart rate up. I don't find the 10 seconds is enough recovery. So my performance goes down on subsequent intervals for sure. But I do find when I do a 20 minute HIIT workout, so I have 20 seconds on, 20 seconds off, and then I have a little bit of time in between my, you know, sets.

• 2:03:08Chris Williamson?

  Stations.

• 2:03:08Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right. So I find that my performance goes up because I have a little bit more recovery time. And, and I really do like that 20 minute, I mean, 20 second on, 20 second off. 20 minute workout is kind of like a go to if it's like.

• 2:03:22Chris Williamson?

  Sweet spot.

• 2:03:22Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  It is because, you know, like you said, it's like the 10 second recovery is really, it's just not enough. And I do notice that my next, you know, five intervals are not as, as hard.

• 2:03:32Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Sucking on water, trying to get it to go through. What are you working on next? What else have you got in terms of a research area? What are you going to be focused on for the rest of the year?

• 2:03:43Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I'm looking into creatine and its effects on the brain and, I mean, obviously muscle, but like non, I would say, popular effects. It's a very interesting, there's a lot of interesting data out there on creatine and also how it affects the methylation pathway. So a lot of people are sort of obsessed with this. It's, methylation is used in your body for a lot of different biological systems. And a lot of people think of methylfolate. Well, I need my methylfolate because I have an MTHFR where I'm not making methyl groups as much and this and that. Well, actually, our body makes creatine.

• 2:04:23Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  And you know, that's something that we do make, but it requires a ton of methylation to do so. So if you give yourself exogenous creatine, it frees up the methylation because your body has the creatine now and it doesn't have to keep making as much. And so I'm very interested in the effects of creatine. No one's talked about that.

• 2:04:42Chris Williamson?

  Very cool.

• 2:04:43Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  But yeah.

• 2:04:44Chris Williamson?

  Tim Ferriss is currently, he has been practicing trialing 10 to 15 plus grams a day to see what that does from a cognitive health perspective. It's an interesting.

• 2:04:54Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Yeah, there's some, there's some interesting data on there, like 10 grams a day. I take five, but there's also studies on there, studies that have come out on five grams a day for like cardiovascular health improvements. So again, I'm actually getting, having a researcher on my podcast in, let's see, about a couple of weeks, who does creatine research and knows all about that. The other thing I'm doing, I'm very interested in is exercise and cancer, both prevention and treatment. So there's now a lot of clinical research on using exercise as an adjunct treatment to cancer and how effective it is in improving cancer survival, improving, you know, the, basically lowering the cancer recurrence risk, right? So like

• 2:05:35Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  it coming back and also improving like a whole host of like side effects of chemo, like your mood, nausea, like guess what? When you exercise along with the chemo, people think that I don't have energy to do it, but it turns out they actually feel better. Big surprise to those of us that exercise. It's not that much of a surprise. I mean, exercise is, you know, there's studies out there now that have compared exercise to a classical SSRIs, right? And they're as good, if not better, at treating depression.

• 2:06:04Chris Williamson?

  Did you see what the top rated category of exercise movement was in one of those studies? It was dancing with, with music.

• 2:06:14Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Oh no, I didn't see that.

• 2:06:15Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, so I think it was, it came out at the same time, but it wasn't the same one. But yes, when you compared it and they then ranked all of the different modes of exercise. I think one of the things, especially to do with dancing that you have is this sort of inherently pro-social intimate collaborative partner-based thing that's going on, which is probably doing all sorts of stuff that's oxytocin, it's serotonin as well, vasopressin, like there'll be a ton of things going on.

• 2:06:43Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Right. That must have been an observational study. There's actually been randomized controlled trials comparing. A lot of, a lot of them are running. They do running for the exercise or biking. But like, in that sense, it's like you're, you're really comparing the two, right? And, and, and in that sense, but um, yeah, there's so many things going on, right? You're getting the endorphins, you're getting, you're getting cannabinoids are another one that you're making with exercise that affect your mood. Um, you're getting serotonin, oxytocin as well.

• 2:07:12Chris Williamson?

  All the good things. Rhonda, you're great. I really appreciate you. I love, I love getting to speak to you. So creatine, exercise and cancer. We need to talk about toxic mold and mycotoxins. We can do that next time that you come on. But where should people go? Keep up to date with all of the things. Have you got any more PDFs going out?

• 2:07:28Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  I do, yeah. I've got, so I've got a podcast, right? I'm, I'm on all the places, Spotify and YouTube and Apple Podcasts. But I also have a website as well, foundmyfitness.com. My podcast is called Found My Fitness. And I've got some free reports out there. I've got a new one on, it's called How to Train According to the Experts. And you can find that at howtotrainguide.com. And it's essentially like all the experts I've had on my podcast that are, you know, in exercise physiology. So it's how to train to improve VO2 max. It includes, includes protocols. How to train to improve muscle mass, muscle strength, how to improve body composition. So that's all, all the protocols that you need and sort of a lot of like science explanations as well. Howtotrainguide.com. I've got BDNF protocols, so that can be found.

• 2:08:13Chris Williamson?

  I downloaded that one straight after our episode last year. What, where's, where can people get the BDNF one?

• 2:08:17Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  BDNFprotocols.com and that's a lot of protocols for improving brain health and, um, you know, cognition, basically if you want some exercise protocols or polyphenol protocols that are out there that are shown to increase cognition, improve cognition. That's another one as well. Oh, and I have another one that you might be interested in. It's the omega three, how to choose an omega three supplement. And it's basically got a list of like eight or 10 different supplements that are like. Quality, low oxidation and like how to choose a supplement and that's at omega3guide.com. So that's another one.

• 2:08:48Chris Williamson?

  Okay, people can go and PDF themselves up. Rhonda, I really appreciate you. Thank you.

• 2:08:52Dr. Rhonda Patrick?

  Appreciate it too, Chris. Thanks so much.

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