AMANDA KNOX talks Trial, Amélie, Redemption

Get harder, longer-lasting erections with Ro Sparks: $15 off first order of medication to get hard at https://ro.co/TAFS -- JOIN THE FRIEDLAND FAMILY FOUNDATION / PREMIUM SUBSCRIPTION: / @theadamfriedlandshow -- Patreon: / theadamfriedlandshow The Adam Friedland Show - Season Two Episode 11 | Amanda Knox X: https://x.com/adam_talkshow Instagram: / theadamfrie. . TikTok: / adamfriedlandshowclips YouTube: Subscribe to @TheAdamFriedlandShow here: / theadamfriedlandshow Subscribe to @TAFSClips here: / @tafsclips [00:00:00] - Intro [00:02:07] - Merch [00:06:24] - Case Background and Early Days [00:22:23] - Relationships, Scrutiny, and Prison Life [00:37:21] - Prosecutor, Narratives, Conspiracies, Trials [00:45:01] - Returning Home and Reclaiming Agency [00:56:50] - Hulu Series: Making and Meaning [01:01:11] - Going Forward #amandaknox, #adamfriedland, #theadamfriedlandshow, #tafs, #hulu, #truecrimecommunity Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

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• 1:24Speaker 02

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• 1:30Speaker 03

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• 2:00Adam Friedland?

  The night of the crime, you were with your boyfriend, and you watched the film Amelie.

• 2:06Speaker 05

  Amelie, yeah.

• 2:07Adam Friedland?

  Yeah. Was that the last movie you watched for like four years?

• 2:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, that was the movie I was watching when this crime occurred. No, I love that movie.

• 2:15Adam Friedland?

  Don't you think she's acting annoying a little bit?

• 2:17Speaker 05

  No, I love that movie.

• 2:18Adam Friedland?

  She acts like Amelia Bedelia a little bit, you think?

• 2:21Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 2:21Adam Friedland?

  It was the night that your life... I would hate it even more if your life got ruined the night I watched Amelie.

• 2:26Speaker 05

  Amelie is the reason why I was safely in someone else's home, instead of at home getting raped and murdered myself.

• 3:03Adam Friedland?

  Hey guys, welcome to the Adam Friedland Show. It's your boy, Adam Friedland. Guys, on a sincere note, I want to thank everyone for the feedback we got on the last episode. It was really nice, and it seems like it reached a lot of people, and it feels good. It's unexpected. We didn't think that that would happen, and it's pretty cool for all of us here at the office. And so, thanks a lot again for everyone.

• 3:28Adam Friedland?

  It's embarrassing, I cried. Just don't...

• 3:32Adam Friedland?

  Girls saw that? As always, I want to thank our members here on youtube.com for supporting the show through the Friedland Family Foundation. And if you're not a member, and you want to get our episodes early and have your name in the credits, you can sign up here on youtube.com. There's two different ways. You could click the "Join" button at the top of your screen, or you could click the link in the description of this video below. And if you prefer to support the show through Patreon, there's also a link in the description of this episode. Guys, as you may have noticed, I'm looking pretty fresh today. I'd like to announce officially, we will be releasing Adam Friedland Show merch in the next week. This has taken way too long to get off the ground,

• 4:17Adam Friedland?

  and I can assure you it has nothing to do with my civil rights moment. I'm not... It's really embarrassing. Should we not actually sell merch? Is this weird?

• 4:25Speaker 02

  It might be kind of weird.

• 4:26Adam Friedland?

  It's kind of in bad taste. Guys, this is coincidental. This is a coincidental merch launch. Fuck, that's weird.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, we might be rude to the Jews.

• 4:38Adam Friedland?

  I saved the Jews last week and now I'm throwing them back in the...

• 4:41Speaker 02

  I was thinking about...

• 4:42Adam Friedland?

  Now I'm throwing them back in the fucking... Oh my god. As you may, we're launching merch. And it's unrelated to the... Unrelated to anything that's been happening recently in the show. We're launching merch. It's been a fucking comedy of errors to get the site up. The site will be launching by the end of the week. Uh, we're selling these hats, they're pretty sick. I get, I took... God, it feels... Just, I'm literally just... Oh my god. I was Queen Nester last week and now I'm fucking Adolf Hitler. So, guys, what are we selling? We're selling these hats, pretty fr- pretty sick.

• 5:21Adam Friedland?

  We got these shirts, this is based on a Jay Leno shirt for the Tonight Show from the early, uh, 90s. Hero of mine. Zach, what else we got? We got this one, this is more of a punk rock style. With the new Adam Friedland Show logo. And one more. Ooh, a ni- a military green, folks. So... Folks, uh, by the end of the week, whoever the fuck... We thought that the web designer guys stole money from... It's been a long story, guys. And it's unrelated to anything that's happened recently. We will be launching our merch store. And for those that are members and patrons, there will be a discount code for all of our merch.

• 6:05Adam Friedland?

  My guest this week is Amanda Knox, the activist and author who was wrongly accused of murdering her roommate Meredith Kircher in 2007 while the two lived together during a study abroad program in Italy. Amanda suffered through a long legal battle, including a four-year stint in an Italian prison that ended with her exoneration on the charges of murder. The story is now the subject of a new Hulu original series, The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, which Knox co-produced with Monica Lewinsky. Monica Lewinsky co-signed. Monica, we need you on the show next. Ple- please, Monica, if you're...

• 6:38Speaker 03

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• 7:22Adam Friedland?

  Please, Monica. I would love, please. Anyway, so here's my conversation with Amanda Knox. I usually don't like people who have been to jail, but we actually got along great, so please enjoy.

• 7:34Speaker 03

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• 9:03Adam Friedland?

  Our next guest is a published author, podcaster, executive producer, whose life story has recently been turned into a television series on Hulu. Please welcome Amanda Knox, everyone.

• 9:18Speaker 05

  What a set, what a beautiful show. Thank you for having me.

• 9:23Adam Friedland?

  I know I've been talking about this iPad thing. I don't know if...

• 9:27Speaker 05

  Did it turn off on you?

• 9:28Adam Friedland?

  It just, I don't know if this is gonna be the new style of the show.

• 9:32Speaker 05

  Is this your subtle way of beginning the conversation?

• 9:35Adam Friedland?

  No, it's me talking about myself, which is a great way to interview.

• 9:39Speaker 05

  But do you always use your middle finger to touch the pad?

• 9:43Adam Friedland?

  You picked up on that? No, I was flipping you off. Yeah, welcome to the show.

• 9:48Speaker 05

  Thanks for having me.

• 9:49Adam Friedland?

  You were strongly advised against doing the show?

• 9:51Speaker 05

  I was so strongly advised against...

• 9:53Adam Friedland?

  Who was it?

• 9:54Speaker 05

  No, just a friend of mine who was like, "I'm afraid that he's gonna laugh at you, not with you."

• 9:58Adam Friedland?

  Why would I laugh at him?

• 9:59Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 10:00Adam Friedland?

  I'm nice.

• 10:00Speaker 05

  You have, apparently, a reputation.

• 10:02Adam Friedland?

  So Whitney Cummings said, "Don't do the show."

• 10:05Speaker 05

  No, it was not Whitney.

• 10:06Adam Friedland?

  You bastard.

• 10:06Speaker 05

  It was not Whitney.

• 10:07Adam Friedland?

  Whitney Cummings, you are officially an enemy of the show.

• 10:11Speaker 05

  No, it was not.

• 10:12Adam Friedland?

  I'm adding you to the list of enemies of the show.

• 10:13Speaker 05

  Don't wrongly accuse Whitney Cummings.

• 10:14Adam Friedland?

  DJ Akademiks, you are at number one. Whitney Cummings, you are a close second.

• 10:18Speaker 05

  Oh, my god.

• 10:19Adam Friedland?

  Donald Trump, you've moved down to three.

• 10:21Speaker 05

  Yes, it was Donald.

• 10:23Adam Friedland?

  Donald Trump said, "Don't do the show." Do you have his number?

• 10:25Speaker 05

  No, I do not.

• 10:26Adam Friedland?

  Monica Lewinsky said, "Don't do the show."

• 10:29Speaker 05

  No, but I do have her number.

• 10:30Adam Friedland?

  I watched your podcast you did with Monica.

• 10:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, what'd you think?

• 10:34Adam Friedland?

  I just love Monica.

• 10:35Speaker 05

  She's so funny.

• 10:36Adam Friedland?

  I love you. I don't, sorry, your husband's here. I don't love, you know, I like both of you. You guys have a good dynamic.

• 10:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, but she's so sweet, and she's so smart, and she works her ass off, and she's been through hell. What's not to love?

• 10:49Adam Friedland?

  You guys have a commonality there? Because you guys have been, like, your stories have been, you've been blasted out of the public eye and kind of, you know...

• 10:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, and fought tooth and nail to have a say over who we are in the public imagination. And she really was the one who forged the path forward. I mean, I'm following in her footsteps.

• 11:08Adam Friedland?

  Obviously, your story became incredible. You know, global news.

• 11:13Speaker 05

  Where were you when it was going on?

• 11:14Adam Friedland?

  I was, I had an alibi.

• 11:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, good, good. I did too, but it didn't do anything.

• 11:20Adam Friedland?

  I have an alibi for where I was. I think, do you think that, I know we're jumping around a million directions, but do you think that the phenomenon of true crime, which your story's kind of been retconned into, because I think it posts like-

• 11:31Speaker 05

  Well, it is a true crime in the sense that a true crime occurred. My roommate was raped and murdered and all of that.

• 11:37Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 11:38Speaker 05

  But, yeah.

• 11:38Adam Friedland?

  What I mean is like, as a, as kind of a cottage industry in society, like post-cereal, it's become like, it's exploded, right?

• 11:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, and I think even, I mean, serial was possible because of documentaries like Making a Murderer and-

• 11:52Adam Friedland?

  Thin Blue Line?

• 11:53Speaker 05

  And Thin Blue Line, and even the documentary that Netflix did on my case.

• 11:58Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 11:58Speaker 05

  So.

• 12:00Adam Friedland?

  I, sometimes my girlfriend, like, am I correct in thinking like, it's a majority female audience?

• 12:07Speaker 05

  Yes, yeah, yeah. Typically, it's a majority female audience. And that's interesting, like, why is it that guys like watching things explode and girls like watching solving-

• 12:19Adam Friedland?

  Like tackles.

• 12:20Speaker 05

  You know, crimes. I don't know. Like, maybe it's more, maybe true crime is dealing more with the process of the aftermath of the destruction, whereas like, men are more interested in the destruction itself.

• 12:32Adam Friedland?

  Sometimes I think that it's like, sometimes they want to see a lady whose life is worse than theirs.

• 12:37Speaker 05

  Maybe.

• 12:39Adam Friedland?

  Sometimes like, I mean, like, in the morning, my girlfriend's reading Apple News, and her algorithm is just, I call it girlfriend news. I'll like, wake up and she'll be like, "A baby killed, like, committed suicide." And I'm like, "Why is this in the news?" And I was like, "I don't want to know that."

• 12:54Speaker 05

  It is true. So, okay, so now we're getting into like, why is the media what it is? And because we know that the strongest feeling that drives engagement is outrage. So when you see something like, "A baby commits suicide," you automatically, just automatically-

• 13:11Adam Friedland?

  It's sad.

• 13:12Speaker 05

  It's too sad. And my phone does this to me too. Like, I can't figure out, I'm an old lady with-

• 13:17Adam Friedland?

  Girlfriend news.

• 13:18Speaker 05

  This stuff too. Like, yeah, and I don't want it. I don't want this information. Out there, like I don't need that in, I need kitty videos, that's what I need. And thankfully, it also serves me up that, but like the outrage machine that drives engagement, which is what our entire media industry is built upon, is built upon that. But I don't think, I think it's not quite fair to say that it's just that your girlfriend wants to see someone whose life is worse than theirs.

• 13:42Adam Friedland?

  I'm joking.

• 13:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think it's more coming from an empathetic place. Yeah.

• 13:49Adam Friedland?

  No, I think it's probably that the women's lives are like under threat probably more than men's lives are, right?

• 13:54Speaker 05

  We do feel the precariousness of our lives more, I think.

• 13:57Adam Friedland?

  Women are, violence, you know, under threat of violence more than men are, so I think that probably it kind of plays into that maybe.

• 14:05Speaker 05

  Is that true? I mean, men are under threat of violence as well. They're just under threat of violence from each other.

• 14:11Adam Friedland?

  I appreciate that, I appreciate, I appreciate that, yeah.

• 14:13Speaker 05

  Well, it's true.

• 14:14Adam Friedland?

  Especially when you're a white, straight guy like me.

• 14:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 14:17Adam Friedland?

  The most.

• 14:18Speaker 05

  Everyone just wants to punch your face.

• 14:20Adam Friedland?

  We've touched on a lot of things that I want to expand upon later on, but

• 14:23Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 14:24Adam Friedland?

  For, for those individuals, we have a lot of like four-year-olds that watch the show, so they might not be familiar with the year 2007.

• 14:31Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 14:32Adam Friedland?

  For me, I was in university, it was a glory, I was, you know, Animal Collective.

• 14:37Speaker 05

  Are we the same age? How old are we?

• 14:38Adam Friedland?

  I'm 87, we are the same age.

• 14:41Speaker 05

  Okay, amazing.

• 14:42Adam Friedland?

  Class of 2005.

• 14:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 14:44Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 05

  I'm July, when are you?

• 14:45Adam Friedland?

  April.

• 14:46Speaker 05

  April, so a little older. You can tell, you can tell.

• 14:49Adam Friedland?

  Do you respect me as an older guy?

• 14:52Speaker 05

  We'll see, at the end of this conversation.

• 14:54Adam Friedland?

  Are you jealous? Yeah, no, so yeah, we are the same age. 2007, we all remember it, Animal Collective, Merryweather Post Pavilion, we got, we got, you know.

• 15:05Speaker 05

  Sure, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl thing was big in those days.

• 15:09Adam Friedland?

  The A.G. Club article, yeah, I remember that. You grew up in Seattle, you went to U-Dub, right? I actually like have a, know a lot of people that grew up like in that environment, like Pacific Northwest. It's like a very specific, like, like Patagonia vest kind of like situation.

• 15:27Speaker 05

  Yes, it is that kind of situation. We all go outside a lot, even though the weather isn't always accommodating.

• 15:34Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 15:36Speaker 05

  Pretty progressive.

• 15:38Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was the kind of kid who could just like do my own thing and be a creative weirdo and it wasn't a big deal.

• 15:47Adam Friedland?

  So clearly your case, you know, you went to college and then you became an international spectacle.

• 15:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:54Adam Friedland?

  From, you know, from just under the most traumatic, worst circumstances.

• 16:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:01Adam Friedland?

  How aware, I guess, prior to your arrest, you must have understood that it was, became tabloid news, you know, I think in three countries, right, primarily, like Italy,

• 16:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:13Adam Friedland?

  the United Kingdom and the United States.

• 16:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, so, yes, so really early on, it was already clear that there was a lot of media buzz around the case, however, like, I wasn't aware of what media they were. I was in and out of the police station, so I, it's not like I was like, sitting at home, which my home was now a crime scene, so I didn't have a home, I was hanging out with my boyfriend of a week, who was now like, taking me under his wing and letting me stay at his place while I had nowhere else to go, and...

• 16:45Adam Friedland?

  That really moves the relationship forward, I guess.

• 16:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:48Adam Friedland?

  Being accused of a crime, yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 05

  Well, we hadn't been accused yet, right?

• 16:51Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 16:53Speaker 05

  So, right, so like, in the first few days, we just were responding to this crazy horrific thing that it seemed to come out of completely nowhere, like, it was, we were having this beautiful study abroad experience, our whole lives ahead of us, everything was going great, until, suddenly I come home and there's a crime scene, and I call the cops, because I don't know what to do, and they come and the whole thing explodes, and it's happening so quickly, like, I was arrested within five days, and in those five days, I was being questioned for over 10 hours a day, so like, I didn't really, there was no way for me to keep pace with how fast everything was developing, in spite of the fact that we

• 17:35Speaker 05

  didn't actually have, there wasn't a lot known about what happened to my roommate at the time, like, very little was known, it was just all, a lot of pressure descending upon this small town and on these, you know, local law enforcement who were charged with... Discovering who had committed this really heinous and seemingly inexplicable crime.

• 17:56Adam Friedland?

  And to contextualize, I'm a bad interviewer.

• 17:58Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 17:58Adam Friedland?

  You're on study abroad.

• 17:59Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 18:00Adam Friedland?

  And your roommate was murdered.

• 18:01Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 18:02Adam Friedland?

  And then you were questioned for five days and then later incarcerated.

• 18:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, OK, so, yes.

• 18:10Adam Friedland?

  I'm terrible at my job, yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 05

  OK, yeah.

• 18:12Adam Friedland?

  So, why don't you share your story?

• 18:14Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 18:14Adam Friedland?

  We'll edit.

• 18:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, we'll edit it in. No, no. So, for those who are not familiar, when I was 20 years old, back in 2007, I went to go study abroad. I lived in a house with three other young women, one of whom, one day, was discovered, raped and murdered in her bedroom. And this was very shortly, I was only in Perugia for like five weeks, so I was like just getting my bearings. And I still was not fluent in the language, and I'm, you know, the youngest person in the house, and I'm the one who comes home and stumbles across this crime scene. I call the police, and the police come, and they start investigating this case, but from

• 18:55Speaker 05

  very, from the very early stages, and this is known now because like the prosecutor has written his own book about it and everything, when they came and discovered the crime scene, they immediately thought that what was apparently visible, that there was a break-in, that whoever broke in raped and stabbed to death my roommate, that that was actually staged. It was faked. It was, there was actually something more conspiratorial going on, and so they believed that someone who had access to the house, who lived in the house, was involved. And that suspicion there fell very quickly on to me.

• 19:33Adam Friedland?

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:35Speaker 05

  And so, they pursued a case against me, even when, you know, the DNA evidence and all the evidence in the case came back showing that it was this known burglar, known for being aggressive towards women, who had a history of breaking and entering, all of his DNA was at the crime scene. They had all right.

• 19:52Adam Friedland?

  The footprint.

• 19:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, footprints, bloody handprints, his DNA in my roommate's body, like, all of that definitively proving his guilt in this case. But by the time that they identified that evidence, they had already arrested me. And so, instead of admitting that they were wrong, they pursued a case where they suggested that I had orchestrated a murder orgy. And that story just blew up over the world.

• 20:23Adam Friedland?

  I mean, it's like, perfect fodder for tabloid news.

• 20:26Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 20:27Adam Friedland?

  What's interesting also is that 2007 was like, kind of an inflection point, I think, of like, media.

• 20:33Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 20:34Adam Friedland?

  So, you were kind of at the tail end of like, tabloid establishment, like, The Sun and The Daily Mail, and it's subsequently changed. It's kind of like, you got Facebook, what, the year before that, right?

• 20:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, so the iPhone came out that year.

• 20:50Adam Friedland?

  I started texting freshman year.

• 20:52Speaker 05

  There you go. Like, yeah, we did not have smartphones back in those days. I was on a Nokia flip phone.

• 20:58Adam Friedland?

  Remember the days.

• 20:59Speaker 05

  Or like, even just, you know, in Perusha, I didn't have internet. I had to go to an internet cafe. Like, oh, you know, talk about aging myself, like, internet cafes were a thing.

• 21:09Adam Friedland?

  You hear that, Joji? In our day, back in our day, yeah.

• 21:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, back in our day, you had to go to a cafe to email your mom. And, so yeah, so it was a different time, and you're right, like, it was the beginning, it was when, I think, traditional establishment media was experiencing, was really realizing that there was a crisis. There was an economic crisis. Their economic model was not going to survive the internet. And so, they were desperate to try to like, retain readers, and so that, and to do so with less of a budget, and so, cheaply, quickly, efficiently, to try to out-compete the internet.

• 21:48Speaker 05

  And, and as a result, they just made shit up and perpetuated misinformation because they were in their death throes, and...

• 21:59Adam Friedland?

  And also, it was three different countries. So like, the narrative, you know, in the UK, like, their tabloid rags was like the foxy noxy, like, they love rhymes over there.

• 22:10Speaker 05

  I've learned this since then, yes.

• 22:13Adam Friedland?

  Foxy noxy is just, that's breakfast, lunch, and dinner for those guys. They're like, "This is perfect, print it."

• 22:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:18Adam Friedland?

  And then, in the United States, it was like, this, like, American girls, you know, scared abroad, you know?

• 22:25Speaker 05

  Right, some of it was, although, like, the person...

• 22:28Adam Friedland?

  It was also just this salacious sex angle, too.

• 22:30Speaker 05

  Yes, yeah.

• 22:31Adam Friedland?

  The orgy and...

• 22:32Speaker 05

  There was this, like, weird angle here in the US, specifically with, like, The Daily Beast, I recall, was really terrible, but, like, there was a writer who wrote for The Daily Beast who just wrote these, just, non-stop articles about student killer Amanda Knox, student killer Amanda Knox.

• 22:48Adam Friedland?

  Was it real?

• 22:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, it was women, yeah, it was women writers.

• 22:51Adam Friedland?

  She was hating on you.

• 22:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, she was.

• 22:53Adam Friedland?

  My point, prove it.

• 22:56Speaker 05

  Oh, no!

• 22:57Adam Friedland?

  They want to see other women destroyed, no.

• 22:59Speaker 05

  Well, and, but that also was this, like, narrative that the prosecution was putting forth, that, like, all women hate other women, hence, of course, Amanda would murder...

• 23:07Adam Friedland?

  So I agree with the prosecution, sue me.

• 23:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:10Adam Friedland?

  And then, also, in Italy, there was, like, this, kind of, it's a Catholic country, there was a religious prosecutor, and then, they were kind of labeled the...

• 23:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, there was definitely a Madonna, yeah, Madonna whore dichotomy that was going on, where both my roommate and I were completely misrepresented, so, in Italy itself, they had stereotypes about what are American girls like, what are British girls like? And they thought, "Well, British girls are uptight and judgmental, and American girls are loose and slutty." And, well, whatever, you know, they're human beings, and they're, they have all these different facets, but the way that it got presented in court was, Meredith is this, like, uptight, judgmental person, Amanda is this slutty, sort of, in-your-face person. Obviously, this, their confrontation would result in a sex murder.

• 24:04Speaker 05

  And, for me, at the time, like, what was so frustrating about it was, this was obviously a fantasy that was built on stereotypes and, and...

• 24:15Speaker 05

  Misogynistic pornographic fantasy.

• 24:17Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 24:18Speaker 05

  But so many people bought into it. And I'm actually curious, like, back in the day, do you remember? Did you ever follow it?

• 24:26Adam Friedland?

  You're beautiful.

• 24:27Speaker 05

  Oh, well, thank you.

• 24:28Adam Friedland?

  No, I mean, that was like an aspect of it. My, well, I was gonna say, my father was like, that was another news story where he was like, "She's beautiful, Adam, and she's, she's across the world and she's scared." And I was like, oh, my dad's in love with this, this, uh, my dad was, should we hit him up?

• 24:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 24:44Adam Friedland?

  No, he gets so embarrassed.

• 24:46Speaker 05

  Really?

• 24:46Adam Friedland?

  Yeah, I'm like, Dad, I'm with your crush right now from back in the day.

• 24:49Speaker 05

  Well, you know what? We should send him a selfie.

• 24:51Adam Friedland?

  No, easy, come on, that's not embar, I'm, I'm sorry to embarrass you, dude. She thinks you're cute. I know, listen, I don't wanna lead you astray, your husband's here too. You have nothing to worry about with this guy. It must be, it's actually so funny that that was how the British and American girls were labeled, 'cause I don't know if you've been on vacation, but...

• 25:10Speaker 05

  You sound like you're afraid that you're about to be murdered.

• 25:12Adam Friedland?

  The night of the, no, I'm not, by the British? These people are, come on, they're, they're pathetic people.

• 25:19Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 25:20Adam Friedland?

  They've never, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm causing an international event right now?

• 25:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, you are.

• 25:27Adam Friedland?

  With the night, the night of the crime, you were with your boyfriend five days? First of all, just, did it accelerate the relationship? Did you guys drop "I love you" faster?

• 25:36Speaker 05

  Well, no, I think it's more the opposite, like, in fact, something that like, is a, an undercurrent of the show that we've developed here is this story of love lost, right? Like, here, both Raffaela and I were both at the very beginning stages of this, like,

• 25:52Adam Friedland?

  The handsome guy.

• 25:54Speaker 05

  Young love. Handsome, but like, sweet. Like, he was, he was shy, like, he was very unlike a lot of the Italian guys that I met, and he was shy, he was sweet, he...

• 26:03Adam Friedland?

  Princesa.

• 26:04Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, he, he was very cavalleresco, he was very...

• 26:09Speaker 05

  Chivalrous, yeah.

• 26:12Adam Friedland?

  Chivalrous.

• 26:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:14Adam Friedland?

  He sucks, this guy, dude. You don't have nothing to worry about.

• 26:18Adam Friedland?

  In front of your husband. No, that guy looks so, I mean.

• 26:22Speaker 05

  But anyway, yeah, so but then we're like put into this horrible nightmare of a situation where he's only known me for a week.

• 26:28Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 05

  And suddenly, because he's my alibi, he's being accused of involvement in this horrible crime, and he then spends four years in prison and eight years on trial and is convicted at a certain point and reconvicted at a certain point.

• 26:44Adam Friedland?

  Did you guys try an LDR?

• 26:45Speaker 05

  LDR?

• 26:46Adam Friedland?

  Long Distance Relationship?

• 26:48Speaker 05

  Uh, no, I feel like I was more focused on proving my innocence.

• 26:53Adam Friedland?

  I'm being a fucking... Maybe I am being mean.

• 26:58Speaker 05

  No, no.

• 26:58Adam Friedland?

  Maybe your advice against doing the show is correct.

• 27:00Speaker 05

  No, no, no, but I hear you, I hear your point, like, oh, okay.

• 27:03Adam Friedland?

  It could be romantic. It could be like the world is against us.

• 27:07Speaker 05

  Well, you know what, and this is something I talk about in my book, is like the world was vilifying me for my sexuality and the very fact that I was like a desirable object became like a point of like deep shame and, and fear for me because not only was I being, you know, vilified in the press, like I, I was getting sexually har-

• 27:32Adam Friedland?

  We were like a sex symbol.

• 27:32Speaker 05

  Well, I was sexually harassed in prison by prison guards. I was, you know, being accused of being this like sex monster in court and so just like being, just like the fact that I'm attractive to other people became a object, like a reason for me to like hate myself and to feel like I was being, I was just being destroyed because of other people's like sexual fixations on me and so the idea of being anyone's object of interest became suddenly very toxic to me.

• 28:03Adam Friedland?

  Obviously, you're a private person and suddenly you're not a private person.

• 28:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:07Adam Friedland?

  And that's like adjusting to that is, is a very difficult thing, I would imagine.

• 28:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, to have every intimate detail of my life brutally scrutinized was a huge thing when I was 20 years old, yeah.

• 28:23Adam Friedland?

  The night of the crime, you were with your boyfriend and you watched the film Amelie.

• 28:30Speaker 05

  Amelie, yeah.

• 28:31Adam Friedland?

  Yeah. Was that the last movie you watched for like four years?

• 28:35Speaker 05

  I mean, there were some movies that we were able to watch in prison, but yeah, that was the movie I was watching.

• 28:41Adam Friedland?

  It kinda sucks though.

• 28:42Speaker 05

  No, I love that movie.

• 28:43Adam Friedland?

  No, if it was you, she's kind of annoying in that. It's just in French. Don't you think she's acting annoying a little bit?

• 28:51Speaker 05

  I mean, it depends on what you think is annoying.

• 28:53Adam Friedland?

  My thought was like, if that was the last movie you watched for four years, I'd be like, oh, I wish it was a better movie.

• 28:59Speaker 05

  No, I love that movie.

• 29:01Adam Friedland?

  She acts like Amelia Bedelia a little bit, you think?

• 29:04Speaker 05

  Sure, yeah, but there's something charming about Amelia Bedelia, yeah.

• 29:08Adam Friedland?

  What do you mean? She's making a mess? She's supposed to be the nanny? She's knocking into things?

• 29:13Speaker 05

  She has magical thinking. She's experiencing the world in that manic pixie dream world kind of way, which I can a little bit relate to.

• 29:22Adam Friedland?

  No way. She's not Natalie Portman in Garden State. That's a lady that's making my house into a mess. I would fire Amelia Bedelia. No, it's just like...

• 29:32Speaker 05

  It's the same kind of vibe.

• 29:33Adam Friedland?

  My stupid mind, that was my thought.

• 29:35Speaker 05

  What movie would you watch before you went to prison for four years?

• 29:40Adam Friedland?

  Good question.

• 29:43Adam Friedland?

  I guess Donnie Darko.

• 29:45Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 29:48Adam Friedland?

  It's a smart movie.

• 29:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, sure. Is that gonna give you the strength to get through?

• 29:53Adam Friedland?

  Yeah, it's like, it's pretty trippy and stuff. I've thought about it, you know?

• 29:58Speaker 05

  It would give you nightmares in the days? It would be distracting? It gave me nightmares when I saw it.

• 30:02Adam Friedland?

  It's make believe. I'm not afraid of it. I've never been afraid of a movie.

• 30:05Speaker 05

  Oh, okay. I get scared.

• 30:07Adam Friedland?

  Have you ever been offered like a... Were you ever offered like a career in entertainment after you got out of prison?

• 30:17Speaker 05

  Ish, like someone wanted me to star in a porn.

• 30:22Adam Friedland?

  And I imagine like you had court fees and stuff like that and like how did your family paid for your defense, right?

• 30:29Speaker 05

  Yes, they went into debt paying for my defense.

• 30:32Adam Friedland?

  Right now, I mean, you seem like you've you've processed it and you're speaking about like a.

• 30:36Speaker 02

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• 31:18Speaker 02

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• 31:59Speaker 02

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• 32:06Adam Friedland?

  Traumatic experience in public and it's but it has to also be something you've spoken about a million times and it has to also be like as a human being probably annoying, right?

• 32:16Speaker 05

  So here's what's annoying, here's what's annoying and I've had annoying experiences with this where it feels like I've had conversations with people. Where it felt like they didn't actually care what I had to say. They just had their own preconceived idea of what my story was and they wanted to. They wanted to be the one who got to ask me, did you murder your roommate? And they didn't really care what my answer was. They just wanted to be the person who got to ask me that.

• 32:43Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 32:43Speaker 05

  And so any kind of conversation that is just limited to. What did you do that night? And like just in basically putting me on trial again, like I find that to be. Tiresome and unoriginal and not very useful because I think the actual facts. Speak for themselves and I shouldn't have to defend myself in that way anymore. But when I have a conversation, like this is the first time I'm having this conversation with you. And I don't actually know you that well, so I'm kind of discovering. Defending yourself. I'm not judging you.

• 33:19Adam Friedland?

  Ray's been friends with me a whole lot.

• 33:21Speaker 05

  But it's curious to me like what you find curious about it and what you might know about it. Because there are a million different ways that I've had to process this experience from all the different angles. And it seems like one thing that you're deeply interested in is this question of like. I mean, you're a media maker, so it makes sense that you're very curious about like. How media has evolved and what have we learned?

• 33:43Adam Friedland?

  Yeah, but.

• 33:44Speaker 05

  Right, you're a media mogul, you're an icon. And so you want to know. Like, how do you go about, you know, being a media icon and mogul ethically and responsibly?

• 33:56Adam Friedland?

  I don't, I don't, come on.

• 34:01Adam Friedland?

  I'm just trying my best, you know? I'm not, I don't know how I found myself in this position in life, but.

• 34:07Speaker 05

  Well, that's an interesting question. Why do any of, why do you have the influence to like have somewhat like to share information? Is that it?

• 34:17Adam Friedland?

  It's a stupid world, yeah, yeah.

• 34:18Speaker 05

  Well, okay, so like, how did you?

• 34:20Adam Friedland?

  I put my pants on a podcast.

• 34:22Speaker 05

  Is that what happened?

• 34:23Adam Friedland?

  I was with two way more talented guys on a podcast where I was like a nebbish.

• 34:27Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 34:28Adam Friedland?

  So we like rebuilt the Dick Cavett Show set and. And now, you know, now the newspaper thinks that this is a real thing.

• 34:38Adam Friedland?

  But in reality, I'm a fraud. I don't even know how to read.

• 34:41Speaker 05

  Okay, well, but that's interesting.

• 34:43Adam Friedland?

  I read Harry Potter, all of them, though.

• 34:45Speaker 05

  All right, high five.

• 34:46Adam Friedland?

  Have you read those?

• 34:47Speaker 05

  Are you kidding me? I read them in prison, too. Yeah, no, that's like how I learned how to speak Italian in prison.

• 34:53Adam Friedland?

  You read Harry Potter in Italian?

• 34:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, because I-

• 34:55Adam Friedland?

  Hermione.

• 34:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, Hermione Grange.

• 35:00Adam Friedland?

  I wish Harry got her.

• 35:03Speaker 05

  I mean, no, they didn't have that dynamic. They never had that dynamic.

• 35:09Adam Friedland?

  She's so good at school and-

• 35:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, sure, and he's weird and traumatized and, you know, like, needs that Ginny energy. She's a strong woman.

• 35:18Adam Friedland?

  I know, I mean, it's cool, and it's kind of sick that he's like, now he's real brothers with Ron.

• 35:23Speaker 05

  Yes, thank you.

• 35:25Adam Friedland?

  But like, honestly, we were the age where Harry was our age.

• 35:30Speaker 05

  Yes, yes.

• 35:32Adam Friedland?

  How sick was that?

• 35:33Speaker 05

  It was the best.

• 35:34Adam Friedland?

  And then when he was like, wanted to, you wanted to take down Cho Chang. I don't know why I said it that way.

• 35:40Speaker 05

  Take down Cho Chang.

• 35:42Adam Friedland?

  You wanted to clap Cho Chang.

• 35:44Speaker 05

  This is what-

• 35:44Adam Friedland?

  I'm sorry I'm talking this way, I'm a fucking idiot. When Harry was trying to clap Cho Chang at school, what a racist. Those books in retrospect are so racist.

• 35:53Speaker 05

  Sometimes.

• 35:54Adam Friedland?

  Have you seen Cho Chang? Come on. Have you ever seen, someone asked JK Rowling on Twitter, is there any Jewish wizards? And she goes, Antony Goldstein, Ravenclaw.

• 36:12Adam Friedland?

  Antony Goldstein, Ravenclaw. Yeah, I mean, obviously, we all know the goblins are the Jews, but it's kind of, as we found out in society, it's probably more accurate than- No, let's get back on track. But it was sick he was our age.

• 36:27Speaker 05

  It was sick he was our age, and I got to appreciate-

• 36:29Adam Friedland?

  And Drake is our age, too.

• 36:30Speaker 05

  Well, no, I was gonna say, I've got to appreciate more of Harry Potter's story in prison, because there's a certain point where he, the whole world turns against him and calls him a liar- and throws him under the bus. And I was like, Harry and I have so much in common right now.

• 36:44Adam Friedland?

  And he had to leave. He had to go away, even though Hogwarts was the most special place in the world. You know, it was the place he loved the most. But I guess Dumbledore believed him the whole time, you know?

• 36:55Speaker 05

  Oh, of course, yeah, Dumbledore would not have gone down with the ship if he didn't think that Harry could like take the reins.

• 37:01Adam Friedland?

  Yeah. And it turns out Snape was the great guy.

• 37:05Speaker 05

  I know. I'm so in love with that turn of events. Snape forever.

• 37:10Adam Friedland?

  Snape forever?

• 37:11Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:11Adam Friedland?

  Do you ever think that Snape sounds like he just had milk? Most of pot. You remember, like he had milk.

• 37:20Speaker 05

  I wasn't judging.

• 37:22Adam Friedland?

  Five pots from Grotto.

• 37:24Speaker 05

  I was just hearing him.

• 37:25Adam Friedland?

  I could go on forever about this Harry Potter crap and don't get me started on the Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them series.

• 37:31Speaker 05

  Which I haven't really actually watched.

• 37:33Adam Friedland?

  I actually watched it on a plane recently. It's kind of fire.

• 37:35Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 37:36Adam Friedland?

  It goes into Dumbledore when he was gay and stuff.

• 37:39Speaker 05

  Oh, I love that.

• 37:40Adam Friedland?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:40Speaker 05

  Oh, great.

• 37:41Adam Friedland?

  But whatever. Let's not touch this.

• 37:43Speaker 05

  Also, there's like a Hufflepuff main character.

• 37:45Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 05

  I'm into that.

• 37:46Adam Friedland?

  Are you Huff?

• 37:47Speaker 05

  I'm Huff.

• 37:48Adam Friedland?

  Me too.

• 37:48Speaker 05

  What?

• 37:49Adam Friedland?

  It took me a while to admit. I'm lazy and stupid. I used to say, oh, no, definitely.

• 37:55Speaker 05

  Loyal and hardworking. What are you talking about?

• 37:57Adam Friedland?

  Loyal, I actually am loyal. I've been cheated on multiple times and, uh, and, uh, not realized it because of my loyalty. Here's another stupid one, like the Ammali thing, but like, I mean, Italian food is really good. Like, did you get it? Was the food?

• 38:11Speaker 05

  Are you asking? So many people ask me about Italian prison food. It's still prison food, my friend. So, no, I did not get to eat Italian cuisine.

• 38:19Adam Friedland?

  I'm not saying like Michelin star, but you know, like a cacio e pepe is three ingredients. What, they give you ghoul?

• 38:26Speaker 05

  So, I mean, we did get pasta noodles, but often they were just like plain in olive oil or plain with broth.

• 38:33Adam Friedland?

  It's not bad.

• 38:34Speaker 05

  Um, I mean, sure, it's, it's, you know what? It's better than the US where you get like rotten baloney. So, you know what? I'll take it. Um, but yeah, we were fed twice a day, um, and it was a very strict, like.

• 38:48Speaker 05

  The most basic meat, the most basic boiled vegetable, and then pasta either with oil or broth.

• 38:54Adam Friedland?

  Did you establish like relationships with other women in there? Have you maintained relationships with anyone that you were with?

• 39:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, actually. So, again, spent four years of my life there and-

• 39:08Adam Friedland?

  Who's your bestie?

• 39:09Speaker 05

  My bestie from prison?

• 39:10Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 39:12Speaker 05

  Well, there was one other American woman who was my cellmate for quite a while, and we depicted her in the show. She's an older woman who really kind of took me under her wing because I was a deer in headlights. I was not prepared for the prison environment. I did not understand that there is like a world of poverty and deprivation, that I was just like completely- like I was one of the only people in prison who had all of my teeth. I was one of the few people who could read and write. I had to explain to my cellmates at one point that the earth is a sphere. Like, the level of just like not knowing was shocking to me.

• 39:53Speaker 05

  And so, it really gave me a bigger perspective about like what this world is all about and the conditions that people like you and me find ourselves in that put us in a position to fail. So, I learned to have a lot of sympathy for these women who were guilty of the crimes that they committed, but really had never been set up to make good decisions in the first place.

• 40:18Adam Friedland?

  How many times have you been asked the question about "Orange is the new black"?

• 40:22Speaker 05

  Not that many times. I tried watching that when I came home, and it was too difficult for me to watch.

• 40:29Adam Friedland?

  Yeah, me too. Blah, blah, blah, you know?

• 40:33Speaker 05

  Oh, no.

• 40:33Adam Friedland?

  No, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

• 40:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't know, like it's just- I've also like visited a prison once since I got back, and actually this is-

• 40:41Adam Friedland?

  I wouldn't imagine you'd want to watch that show.

• 40:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, I mean, I'm curious to see how prison is depicted now that it's a very real thing for me. But the one time I did go back to prison, like after all this, to visit, was a Washington State prison, and I was going there to support this program called "Yoga Behind Bars." And I went to go see the program in person, and of course, I have to go through the whole process of like- Getting patted down and going through the metal detector and I was given this little like badge and they were like, "Don't lose the badge or you can't leave the prison." And I was like, "Fuck off." And then like, of course, we're doing yoga, so I take the badge off and I leave it in the yoga room and I try to get out of the prison and they're like, "You can't leave." And I was like, having a panic attack and cried the whole way home.

• 41:27Adam Friedland?

  I want to talk about the prosecutor in the case.

• 41:30Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 41:30Adam Friedland?

  I understand that you've, he was a, can you first, please like, explain kind of what his attitude was during the investigation, during the prosecution and what, like, because I think it's an interesting thing to share.

• 41:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:44Adam Friedland?

  For the story.

• 41:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, okay, so in the series, we depict not just my personal evolution as a human being who's gone through this process, but also my prosecutors. So in Italy, one thing to know is that prosecutors lead investigations. They're in charge of the investigation. They're not like, separate from detectives like they are here in the US. And so, from the very beginning, he was the one who was crafting the narrative about what he believed to be true. And he was the one who previously had investigated this really famous serial killer case in Italy called the Monster of Florence case that went unsolved.

• 42:22Adam Friedland?

  Sounds scary.

• 42:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's basically like the Jack the Ripper of Italy.

• 42:25Adam Friedland?

  Whoa.

• 42:26Speaker 05

  It's something that he, and it was a very like, sexually charged, you know, like, mutilated bodies, really, really horrible stuff. So he had that history behind him. He also investigated-

• 42:36Adam Friedland?

  He was a pious gentleman? He was like, religious?

• 42:38Speaker 05

  Uh, yes, he's a very spiritual man, very Catholic, and, you know, just very traditional in nature, like, politically traditional.

• 42:47Adam Friedland?

  He judged you for, you know, being a, like, you know, young woman?

• 42:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, I mean-

• 42:53Adam Friedland?

  For your sexuality?

• 42:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely. I think that, again, the way that he positioned both Meredith and me is that here's this like, good, you know, like, not necessarily pious, but like, pure, virginal, British girl who's obviously judgmental because she's British, who is like, you know, scolding the, you know, flippant and slutty American girl and the American girl in response murders her by raping her and stabbing her to death. That's, that was the narrative that he- Imagined and you know and he was he was really explicit about it like he was standing up there in court saying Amanda was taunting and torturing Meredith while you know murdering

• 43:38Speaker 05

  her and saying this is what you get you little two goody two shoes like it was all just this like thing that he imagined he also imagined that I was in this like secret love triangle with the actual murderer because of course he had to like somehow account for this guy's DNA

• 43:53Adam Friedland?

  That made its way into the media narrative I think that's what I thought about the case

• 43:57Speaker 05

  Like that there was this like crazy love triangle

• 44:00Adam Friedland?

  Maybe I wasn't like I wasn't you know I was like smoking weed in college I wasn't like

• 44:05Speaker 05

  That was another thing I was smoking weed therefore I'm a drug addict

• 44:09Adam Friedland?

  Yeah and watched Amelie which is not that good anyway but

• 44:13Speaker 05

  Why do guys hate Amelie

• 44:15Adam Friedland?

  It's just in France sometimes you watch a French movie and they're like they say something and you read it in a subtitle which is like you know

• 44:22Speaker 05

  They have their own language

• 44:24Adam Friedland?

  Love is the most powerful drug and like you're like it sounds beautiful in their beautiful language but if someone said that in English I'd be like shut the fuck up

• 44:32Speaker 05

  Well and to your point though that like there even just ways of saying things becomes ways of thinking things and I think that was also true in Italian culture which also has a very like romantic bent like French where anyway

• 44:46Adam Friedland?

  Europeans just say the dumbest crap you know they're like there's there's nice

• 44:50Speaker 05

  Says the American

• 44:51Adam Friedland?

  They do they say things like do you know Bob Dylan you know like and I'm just like we're what are you eight years old what do we hate of course but he's my favorite what do you know but Sergeant Pepper It's like fucking they're too naive it's too much healthcare my understanding just from like seeing headlines was that it was like a Fleetwood Mac situation

• 45:12Speaker 05

  What does that mean

• 45:13Adam Friedland?

  Like two couples and then they're like swapping girlfriends yeah I thought that that's that's what that's what I was like I was like yeah they were like there was like everyone was having sex and then

• 45:26Speaker 05

  This is the swinging 60s and then suddenly no

• 45:29Adam Friedland?

  That's like what I kind of superficially saw like but I wasn't paying close attention to it because I was like focusing on crossovers dumb Tackles.

• 45:38Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 45:38Adam Friedland?

  Strong men, gorgeous bodies.

• 45:40Speaker 05

  Sure. Of course. And yeah, and I think that's also one of the sort of points the show makes is like there's this superficial narrative that people take in bits and pieces here and there and they get this like general vibe. But it doesn't like when you actually dig into what what really happened. There's there's so much evidence that reveals a very clear. You know, what happened and like this like feeling this vibe that people have is like we'll never know what happened. But we know that it was something sexy is just false.

• 46:16Adam Friedland?

  Yeah, we were talking on the phone yesterday and this is something that I've been thinking about since researching for this. But we were talking about like, what would your case? How would it be processed in 2025? And like the sense I get is that there would be a massive GoFundMe, right? You would have like fans, stans, if you will. Then there would be a backlash saying like, if Amanda wasn't beautiful, would anyone care? The third stage would probably be some sort of pizza gate, like conspiratorial.

• 46:49Speaker 05

  Well, there was that as well at the time, right?

• 46:52Adam Friedland?

  What was that at the time?

• 46:53Speaker 05

  Well, that at the time is this like idea that I was in this like secret threesome with the with the actual murderer. And that they were like, so the idea was that I like I was openly in a relationship with Rafaeli, but secretly also in a relationship with this other like, you know, local burglar.

• 47:11Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Speaker 05

  And that they were.

• 47:12Adam Friedland?

  Like Fleetwood Mac.

• 47:13Speaker 05

  Like they were competing for my attention.

• 47:15Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 47:15Speaker 05

  And then and so raped my roommate for me to like out compete each other and then hold her down while I stabbed her to death. Like that was.

• 47:24Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 47:24Speaker 05

  That was the story. And then the idea that like I was covering it up and that Hillary Clinton was like behind the scenes trying to get me acquitted. Like there was, it was insane.

• 47:34Adam Friedland?

  Hillary Clinton didn't try to help.

• 47:37Speaker 05

  I mean, I think one time she was in, like, she went to go visit Italy on a diplomatic thing and somebody, like, asked, "Are you following the Amanda Knox case?" And she was like, "We at the State Department are aware of the case." And everyone took that to mean that she's, like, gonna, you know, take, you know, the FBI is gonna show up and they're gonna break me out of prison. And no one was doing that.

• 47:55Adam Friedland?

  Thanks for nothing, Hillary.

• 47:56Speaker 05

  Oh, well.

• 47:57Adam Friedland?

  Thanks for nothing, Hillary.

• 47:59Speaker 05

  There is due process, I suppose.

• 48:00Adam Friedland?

  I know. So you were acquitted after four years and then there was a second trial, is that correct?

• 48:05Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 48:06Adam Friedland?

  So when was this entire ordeal finally, when did it feel wrapped up?

• 48:10Speaker 05

  Depends on what you mean by wrapped up.

• 48:14Adam Friedland?

  Right.

• 48:14Speaker 05

  So I was on trial for murder for eight years. And then eventually that was, the Supreme Court in Italy definitively exonerated me. But they also convicted me of a lesser crime, which was slander. So they said that when I was interrogated and I was coerced into signing statements, that I did so knowingly and maliciously, lying to the police, and therefore I am, I'm a criminal and I deserved three years in prison. And that's a, that is a charge that I'm still fighting to this day, 18 years later.

• 48:51Adam Friedland?

  When was the first time you returned to the United States?

• 48:56Speaker 05

  That was after four years in prison, yeah.

• 48:59Adam Friedland?

  What was it like for you? Like, what were the, were the initial lingering, like, feelings you had and what stayed?

• 49:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:07Adam Friedland?

  And what did you have to work through?

• 49:09Speaker 05

  So this was actually a really important part that we wanted to depict in the show because in a typical, like, true crime biopic, it's just like a courtroom drama.

• 49:17Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 49:18Speaker 05

  But Monica and I, so again Monica Lewinsky, who worked on this project with me, really wanted to...

• 49:22Adam Friedland?

  We love her.

• 49:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, she's amazing. She, it was really important to us to show this, like, long tail, like, this, like, this, the trauma itself that happened here has a tremendously long tail. And you're, like, forever altered by this traumatic experience. So, yeah, in those early days, and we depict this in the show, it's like, even the mere ability to open a door just, like, took on all of this, like, symb- Bolic wait and I was just I marveled at like the banal. The fact that I could open a refrigerator and choose what I wanted to eat. The fact that I could go from one door to like I could go from one room to another without an escort. But at the same time, I'm living under tremendous amount of a new kind of pressure, which is that

• 50:08Speaker 05

  media pressure that I was a little bit insulated by from in the prison. Like I only ever encountered the media in the courtroom and now suddenly my house was surrounded.

• 50:17Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 50:17Speaker 05

  There were helicopters outside my house. So like it and this like went on for years.

• 50:25Adam Friedland?

  I imagine there were stalkers. I mean, I imagine there were people that were like obsessed with you.

• 50:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, I couldn't get a regular job. I couldn't, I couldn't make friends. I lived in hiding for another four years while I was still undergoing trial. And and it was really hard.

• 50:43Adam Friedland?

  How did you, how did you like heal from that experience? How did you? I mean, you seem like a well-adjusted individual, I gotta say.

• 50:51Speaker 05

  Well, thank you very much.

• 50:52Adam Friedland?

  You're welcome.

• 50:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, by fricking knowing my, my value and and having that reasserted for me by the people I love. Like, you know, when I first, I would not be here if it weren't for my husband, Chris, who I met. I like, I met him.

• 51:09Adam Friedland?

  He's a good guy.

• 51:10Speaker 05

  He's a very good guy.

• 51:11Adam Friedland?

  Good guy, yeah.

• 51:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, like he didn't, when we first met each other, it was right after I had been definitively exonerated.

• 51:19Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 51:20Speaker 05

  So I wasn't facing prison time anymore. I wasn't just like fighting to stay technically, you know, physically free and I suddenly was able to experience the world with a new sense of openness. And he was one of the first people I made friends with afterwards. I actually interviewed him for his debut novel that came out called War of the Encyclopediaists and so I reviewed that. Check it out. Check it out.

• 51:44Adam Friedland?

  Check it out.

• 51:44Speaker 05

  Check it out. It's a great book. I like to say I wasn't sleeping with the man until after I read it, so.

• 51:48Adam Friedland?

  My girlfriend's never listened to a single podcast or watched a single thing I've ever done and it's, it's probably better that way.

• 51:54Speaker 05

  Really? You think that she would not want to?

• 51:56Adam Friedland?

  Yeah, she probably would break up with me. She watched this, I mean, she'd probably be like, "What are you, what are you bringing up Amelie so much for?"

• 52:01Speaker 05

  Why you hate it?

• 52:02Adam Friedland?

  Admit it, it's not that good.

• 52:04Speaker 05

  I love that movie. I will fight you.

• 52:06Adam Friedland?

  How could you even like that movie? It was the night that your life, I would hate it even more if your life got ruined the night I watched Amelie.

• 52:12Speaker 05

  Amelie is the reason why I was safely in someone else's home, instead of at home getting raped and murdered myself. Amelie saved me.

• 52:21Adam Friedland?

  So, yeah, Amelie is a good guy, or a good lady.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:24Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 52:24Speaker 05

  We love her.

• 52:25Adam Friedland?

  She's annoying, but she's a good lady. We can admit it. Do you, do you often think about what your life would be like had this not, had this never happened?

• 52:34Speaker 05

  I do, and sometimes I worry that I would have been a less valuable person. Like, I do think that I carry with me, like, before all this happened, I was annoying. I was like an annoying Amelie person who nothing bad had ever happened to. I was annoying.

• 52:52Adam Friedland?

  We were 20, though.

• 52:53Speaker 05

  I was 20, and, and I had like zero perspective about the world. Everything was like a fucking Disney princess fantasy, and...

• 53:01Adam Friedland?

  You weren't annoying. You were figuring it out.

• 53:04Speaker 05

  I was figuring it out, but so was Amelie, man.

• 53:06Adam Friedland?

  There had to be a moment where, because obviously you were under such scrutiny when you got back, where you wanted it to probably disappear from the public eye. When was the moment where you wanted to return to the public eye? Like, what, how did, how did you become confident or empowered enough to, to do that? What, what factored into that decision? I have 12 questions.

• 53:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 53:28Adam Friedland?

  14. You want some more?

• 53:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, sure, go for it.

• 53:31Adam Friedland?

  What, what happens at the end of Amelie? I forget the ending. Maybe it's actually a good movie?

• 53:36Speaker 05

  It's sweet. She, she finds another quirky guy. So, there's a manic pixie dream guy.

• 53:41Adam Friedland?

  Quirky guy means that he has a shady past, let's be honest. He did some things in college.

• 53:46Speaker 05

  He does take pictures of people and collect them. Yeah, it's true.

• 53:51Adam Friedland?

  Is she okay?

• 53:52Speaker 05

  They seem very happy together.

• 53:55Adam Friedland?

  No, okay, sorry.

• 53:55Speaker 05

  This is not super relevant.

• 53:57Adam Friedland?

  No, no, no, it's not relevant at all.

• 53:59Speaker 05

  What was your previous question?

• 54:01Adam Friedland?

  The previous question was like, obviously you wanted to disappear from the public eye, probably.

• 54:04Speaker 05

  Sure, yes.

• 54:05Adam Friedland?

  And then what empowered you to re-enter public life?

• 54:08Speaker 05

  So, one of the issues was that, yes, I wanted to hide from public life, because I wanted to just go back to being an anonymous college student, and the world wouldn't let me. I kept being followed around, I kept, like, I couldn't go to class without people taking pictures of me and posting them. So, like, becoming an anonymous person was not an option for me. And I really struggled with that, because I felt like there wasn't a good option for me. I couldn't be a private person, but also, as a public person, I was a pariah. So, what role do I have? And I felt completely trapped. And for a long time, like, I didn't know what to do. I just got a minimum wage job, and I was, like, in a bookstore underground, literally underground, and I had no idea what I could do.

• 54:51Speaker 05

  And, again, it wasn't until, I was writing, you know, I was writing for a local newspaper at the time, under a pseudonym.

• 54:56Adam Friedland?

  The Stranger?

• 54:57Speaker 05

  No, not The Stranger. The Stranger wrote really bad shit about me. But, you know what?

• 55:02Adam Friedland?

  Was it a girl?

• 55:02Speaker 05

  Uh, no, it was not.

• 55:04Adam Friedland?

  Okay, never mind.

• 55:05Speaker 05

  However...

• 55:07Speaker 05

  However, the chief editor apologized to me recently for that.

• 55:11Adam Friedland?

  Have you been back to Italy?

• 55:13Speaker 05

  Well, that is something that the show shows, is when I go back to Italy and confront my prosecutor. But, you know, and you did ask me that, about that before, like, what's the deal with the prosecutor? And one of the things that helped me sort of figure out this time, this time of my life where I'm still feeling really trapped, was I was also struggling with the why of it all. Like, why did this man look at me, a young woman with no precedent, no motive, no, nothing, you know, connecting me to this crime? Why did he look at me and think, there's my rapist and murderer? Like, why? And I just, it just bothered me, that this person who had harmed me probably believed that he was doing the right thing. So, how could that be possible? And that's why I reached out to him, was to ask him.

• 55:56Adam Friedland?

  Did he apologize? Did you get closure?

• 55:57Speaker 05

  Well, I'm not gonna spoil the show for you, you have to watch. Watch the show.

• 56:00Adam Friedland?

  I mean, it's like, I.

• 56:02Speaker 05

  It's eight episodes.

• 56:03Adam Friedland?

  Before I saw Titanic, I knew that it was gonna crash.

• 56:06Speaker 05

  Okay, well, you know I'm gonna go there.

• 56:08Adam Friedland?

  No, I mean, like, well, I guess, how can I ask in a way that's not a spoiler alert?

• 56:14Speaker 05

  Okay, yes, the way you can ask, it's not a spoiler alert.

• 56:17Adam Friedland?

  Did it give you closure, right? Did it, did it make you feel better or whole again?

• 56:23Speaker 05

  Yes, and in a really, really surprising way.

• 56:26Adam Friedland?

  I'm a professional, that was a good.

• 56:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's a good spin. Yeah, no, sorry. I totally missed you there.

• 56:32Adam Friedland?

  That was a nice one.

• 56:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, very perfesh.

• 56:35Adam Friedland?

  No, so, go ahead, sorry.

• 56:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, it was like, when I figured out that my well-being didn't depend on him giving me what I needed, which was acknowledgement and, and like, a mea culpa, like, as soon as I realized that like, my, my well-being didn't depend on his choices anymore, it depended on my own, then I realized that like, okay, what can I do, what can I choose to do in this moment? That will, that speaks to who I am and what I really believe. And what that was, was giving him the thing that he didn't give me, which was the benefit of the doubt. And I, I said a lot of things, which included defending myself, but which also included acknowledging his humanity and his, and his belief

• 57:21Speaker 05

  that he was doing the right thing at the time.

• 57:24Adam Friedland?

  And. No one wants to believe that they're like evil.

• 57:28Speaker 05

  That they're the bad guy.

• 57:29Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 57:29Speaker 05

  And he made me the bad guy, but I didn't turn him into that.

• 57:34Adam Friedland?

  Did you wanna knuckle sandwich him ever?

• 57:36Speaker 05

  No, I'm not a knuckle sandwich person.

• 57:38Adam Friedland?

  Did you wanna knuckle sandwich him? No. Really?

• 57:41Speaker 05

  No, I think instead, instead, what you find when you actually like, sit down and listen to somebody without judgment, is that they become. They become fragile. And like, I can't hold this like fragile person. Like, he is a person who is, who is struggling himself with his legacy and with his decisions. And I have sympathy for that. So, no, I-

• 58:09Adam Friedland?

  I guess, yeah, it's, it's pretty inspiring what you're saying right now. Cause you have to recognize, he's someone that kind of ruined your life. But you recognize him as a human being, I suppose.

• 58:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 58:21Adam Friedland?

  You know?

• 58:22Speaker 05

  It's not like that difficult a thing, but everyone says like, "Oh my God, how did you do that?" And it's like, well, it's the truth. Like, the thing that, that concerns me is not the easy story where it's like, "He's a fucking bad guy who did a fucking bad thing." That's the easy story. The more true story-

• 58:39Adam Friedland?

  It's just not how life works also.

• 58:40Speaker 05

  No, it's not how life works. And if you really want to be an effective person in the world, and if you really care about the truth, you have to acknowledge that like, everyone thinks they're the hero of their own fucking story. And like, he, he believed he was the hero. And now he's being confronted with the fact that I'm not the monster that he thought he wa- that he thought I was. And now he has to reckon with that, and I have great sympathy for him.

• 59:07Adam Friedland?

  Well, first of all, that, you just did a spoiler alert entirely.

• 59:11Speaker 05

  Ah!

• 59:12Adam Friedland?

  But no, but in reality, that's probably accomplished your goal. Like, of what you were seeking to do is just make him grapple with the fact that you are forgiving, like, three-dimensional human being.

• 59:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:28Adam Friedland?

  As our Lord and Savior, Mr. J.C. has taught him.

• 59:32Speaker 05

  Well, sure, yeah, well, and to your point, like, he's a spiritual person, and I think that he had a spiritual experience.

• 59:38Adam Friedland?

  Yeah. You were being Christian.

• 59:40Speaker 05

  I guess so.

• 59:41Adam Friedland?

  You out-Christianed him.

• 59:42Speaker 05

  I guess so. I Jesus-jujitsu'd him.

• 59:46Adam Friedland?

  No, I mean, I find that incredibly inspiring, what you just said.

• 59:49Speaker 05

  I mean, but that's how I really feel. I mean, like, again, like, and I think that's why this story is super relevant today, where we find ourselves factioned by alternative realities and misinformation, and there's this like, like this great resistance to the idea that we could ever find common ground. And it's like, I think people are really cynical about finding common ground, and I want to push back on that notion and say, actually, like, one, we should stop just trying to find fault with each other, and stop trying to like, find reasons to hate each other. Like, I'm so, I'm so tired of people like, finding reasons to be mad about something that is like, so inconsequential. Like, I've had something happen to me that I genuinely had every reason to like, hate the entire fucking

• 1:00:34Speaker 05

  world because of it. And like, I chose not to, because that's not the best way to live your life. And like, I, I have a lot of, like, I, I want to push back on this notion that like, to be righteous, you have to be angry. You don't.

• 1:00:51Adam Friedland?

  What is the sensation of seeing your life dramatized? And how do you process that? And how involved were you in the development of that narrative?

• 1:01:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, because this is not the first time that I have been turned into a dramatization, right? This is just the first time that I've ever had a hand in it. Um, I've, you know, there have been Lifetime films, and there was the Matt Damon film.

• 1:01:13Adam Friedland?

  Still Water.

• 1:01:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, Still Water.

• 1:01:15Adam Friedland?

  I watched it on a plane.

• 1:01:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, what'd you think?

• 1:01:17Adam Friedland?

  I didn't connect with it, actually. That, that was kind of a-

• 1:01:19Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, they were advertising it as, this is the Amanda Knox story, but slightly different. And of course, the Amanda Knox character is at least indirectly responsible for her roommate's death. So it's just like-

• 1:01:31Adam Friedland?

  To me-

• 1:01:31Speaker 05

  -perpetuating this like, sex narrative of, oh, they were in a sex triangle thing. It was just, it was irresponsible. And, um, so anyway, so like, this, this came about because Monica reached out to me. She's already done, you know, impeachment, she executive produced that. And she wanted to, I guess, you know, be the, help me be the next person who gets to tell my story in this way. And this time around, it was really interesting, because I've always had this like, negative connotation with the idea of there being a doppelganger version of me out there. It's always been a negative doppelganger.

• 1:02:09Adam Friedland?

  Grace Van Patten, give it up for her.

• 1:02:10Speaker 05

  But Grace Van Patten- Is incredible. She is so.

• 1:02:15Adam Friedland?

  She's so talented.

• 1:02:16Speaker 05

  So talented, so, and she dimensionalizes all of these aspects of me so that it's not just this cartoon character.

• 1:02:23Adam Friedland?

  And you formed a relationship with her when she was developing like the character?

• 1:02:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, sure. I mean, and I was involved from the whole process, from casting to breaking the story to, I co-wrote the final episode with the curator and showrunner KJ Steinberg, who I have to give all the credit to because like she, like she didn't have to involve me so much in the creative process. Like she could have just taken it and been like, "Okay, sure, good job, you're an executive producer, but I'm gonna do my thing." Like she really involved me the entire way forward and I'm really grateful that she, she mentored me really through this process. So yeah, I was there on set, I was watching all of the different cuts of all the different episodes, and of course, I've been promoting the hell out of it because I believe in it. It's a good show.

• 1:03:08Adam Friedland?

  Is, is, were there, are there any moments where it's just seeing like you're revisiting a, a trauma there, like?

• 1:03:14Speaker 05

  Oh, hell yeah.

• 1:03:14Adam Friedland?

  In watching it?

• 1:03:15Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Over and over and over again.

• 1:03:17Adam Friedland?

  Yeah, it's gotta be difficult for you to process.

• 1:03:19Speaker 05

  It was difficult. I think because I'm finally executive producing a project, I felt a great responsibility to get it right. The good thing was though, is that I was in a, you know, I was in a warehouse full of hundreds of people who I deeply felt also were very concerned about getting it right.

• 1:03:41Adam Friedland?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:42Speaker 05

  And that made me feel so safe and supported. And, and so like, for instance, the interrogation scene, what is, it's in episode two. Have you seen it yet? Have you watched?

• 1:03:55Adam Friedland?

  I watched, I watched the, the pilot episode.

• 1:03:57Speaker 05

  You watched the pilot episode? Okay, so watch the second episode.

• 1:04:00Adam Friedland?

  I'm gonna watch the whole thing.

• 1:04:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, yeah. But the one that is available right now is the second episode. And then next week, there's another episode that comes out.

• 1:04:07Adam Friedland?

  Okay, sure.

• 1:04:07Speaker 05

  But yeah, so you can see this interrogation scene, which was filmed over the course of two days, 10 hours a day, from every different angle, and the psychological journey that, that Grace as me goes on, the psychological journey of her interrogation. It's such a nuanced thing. And it's not like the way that they depict it in, you know, Law and Order TV shows. It's not like, it's way more complicated. Again, all of these stories are way more complicated and nuanced. And so, for me, I was watching this, which was the worst experience of all, being interrogated. It was far worse than like being convicted, for like, all of it was. That was the one moment where I was made to feel utterly insane. And like, I did not know what was true or not, and I was so scared.

• 1:04:52Adam Friedland?

  You were alone.

• 1:04:53Speaker 05

  And so, and so alone, and trying to communicate in a foreign language, like, it just, it was very, very scary. And getting that scene right was, I knew it was a challenge because I was the only one in this entire warehouse who knew what it was like. And yet, they had done all this incredible research, they had talked to all of these people, and came together and made it. And I wept with relief at the end, because we had gotten it right.

• 1:05:19Adam Friedland?

  That's beautiful.

• 1:05:20Speaker 05

  So, it's really good, and I'm, I look, you'll have to text me how you, how you react to it.

• 1:05:25Adam Friedland?

  I will, yeah.

• 1:05:26Speaker 05

  Give me the play by play.

• 1:05:27Adam Friedland?

  I'll live text, yeah.

• 1:05:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, I love it.

• 1:05:29Adam Friedland?

  I'll be like, this reminds me of a certain, certain Amelie.

• 1:05:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, there you go. There are Amelie, like, there's an homage to Amelie in this show. Did you notice that already from the pilot?

• 1:05:39Adam Friedland?

  It's just in French, okay?

• 1:05:41Speaker 05

  What do you have against French?

• 1:05:43Adam Friedland?

  I don't know why, because it's just, no, I'm just kidding. I love, I was just immersed in it.

• 1:05:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, alright, that's great.

• 1:05:49Adam Friedland?

  It's a, it's kind of.

• 1:05:50Speaker 05

  I, I think I understand you now. You hate love things. Like, you, everything you love, you like.

• 1:05:56Adam Friedland?

  The only thing I hate is myself.

• 1:05:57Speaker 05

  Which, which means you love yourself the most.

• 1:06:02Speaker 05

  Someone just felt heard. Someone just felt heard.

• 1:06:06Adam Friedland?

  How long I've known you? I took you to a Drake concert when you were 17. It made me incredible. Yeah, when I was 17. Uh, no, I mean, uh, I, I think, what is, what's one, like, message you want someone to take away from the show?

• 1:06:23Adam Friedland?

  I guess like, in conclusion, let's say.

• 1:06:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, sure. So I think that. I think that the experience that I went through while it is very extreme is actually a more universal story than people give it credit for. And the universal story being that life is going to come at you and even if you do everything right, something bad is going to happen to you. And at that point, you have a choice. If you can survive that bad thing that happens to you, do you let it have a say over who you become? Or do you have a say over who you become? Do you take ownership? And how do you do that? And I think that I've learned to do that in my life and it's come through a lot of struggle and a lot of obstacles, but it is absolutely possible and I believe in that.

• 1:07:07Speaker 05

  And so I just want, I would like people to come away from this series feeling very hopeful.

• 1:07:13Adam Friedland?

  I think that's a perfect place to leave it, guys. I mean, I think that's, I find that, I really appreciate you coming on. I think it's inspirational. Check out the show.

• 1:07:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, thank you. Check out the show.

• 1:07:26Adam Friedland?

  Hulu. And check out the podcast.

• 1:07:28Speaker 05

  Yep, Hard Knocks. The show's called The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox on Hulu.

• 1:07:31Adam Friedland?

  And check out Amanda at comedy clubs all over America. You're gonna be going on tour. How much time do you have? How much material do you have?

• 1:07:38Speaker 05

  I did an hour.

• 1:07:40Adam Friedland?

  You did an hour?

• 1:07:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, I did an hour.

• 1:07:42Adam Friedland?

  Just bit, bit, bit, bit?

• 1:07:43Speaker 05

  Boop, boop, boop, boop.

• 1:07:44Adam Friedland?

  Or what? You did some alt comedy style stuff?

• 1:07:47Speaker 05

  I mean, sure, like I mix it up with some stuff that makes you laugh, that makes you cry.

• 1:07:53Adam Friedland?

  Do you call your dad and like play a prank on, like a prank call?

• 1:07:56Speaker 05

  No, but one of my favorite things is when my dad is in the audience and I start telling sex jokes.

• 1:08:01Adam Friedland?

  Really? How does he react? Boo!

• 1:08:04Speaker 05

  No, he's so sweet. He's very supportive.

• 1:08:06Adam Friedland?

  Anyway, thank you so much for coming on.

• 1:08:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, thanks so much.

• 1:08:09Adam Friedland?

  And thank you, guys, for coming. Thank you, Vander.

• 1:08:58Speaker 03

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