Unpacking Fawning, the Misunderstood Trauma Response with Dr. Ingrid Clayton

We've all heard of fight, flight, and freeze, but what about the fourth F of trauma responses? It's called fawning and we have Dr. Ingrid Clayon join us to discuss what it looks like (leaning in even when you're uncomfortable, needing to please), why we fawn in childhood, relationships, the workplace, etc., and how to break these patterns. We discuss how fawning compares and contrasts to people pleasing, and how fawners have trouble finding healthy relationships, saying no, recognizing their own anxiety, and being honest in therapy. And Ingrid offers advice for getting curious about the trauma responses that could be holding you back, recognizing and not sabotaging healthy partners, and speaking up when you don't like something. Before Ingrid joins us, we have a SHOW ANNOUNCEMENT, Ashley gives a family/health update, and Rayna is making new friends. Enjoy! Follow Ingrid on Instagram at @ingridclaytonphd and get her book Fawning. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Function: Our first 1000 listeners get a $100 credit toward your membership at https://functionhealth.com/gge or use code GGE100. Smart Mouth: Get a special discount on your next SmartMouth purchase at www.smartmouth.com/gge. ZBiotics: Get 15% off your first order at https://zbiotics.com/gge with code GGE. Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at https://rocketmoney.com/gge. Saks Fifth Avenue: Head to Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style. AG1: Get a free frother with your first purchase of AGZ at https://drinkagi.com/gge. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rayna Greenberg?

  So basically, you know, we're talking about fawning as a trauma response and what most of us have known for a long time is fight, flight and freeze.

• 0:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome back.

• 0:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Big day.

• 0:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Big day. We have a big announcement on the way. You know what? Today, 9:15, my-

• 0:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Wait, let me guess. I don't know.

• 0:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's a birthday.

• 0:37Rayna Greenberg?

  It's a birthday in your life?

• 0:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 0:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Stop. I don't know.

• 0:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I don't know if you know this one, but my sister-in-law, she's turning 30.

• 0:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, she is a grown up now.

• 0:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  She's so grown up.

• 0:46Rayna Greenberg?

  She's a-

• 0:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mother of two.

• 0:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, happy birthday, Steph.

• 0:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  30. Happy birthday, Steph.

• 0:51Rayna Greenberg?

  A 30th. You got to, you love to see it.

• 0:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  I will never forget her being like 25 in the house her and your brother own. She's cooking us dinner and I'm like-

• 0:59Rayna Greenberg?

  She's our mom.

• 1:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  She's so much more grown than me.

• 1:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I survived my filler. I went without you yesterday.

• 1:06Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't like not being on the same schedule for this.

• 1:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I went without you and I got a little temple filler with Dr. Barrett and I love it.

• 1:12Rayna Greenberg?

  It was great.

• 1:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I went without you yesterday and I was sad, but we'll go back at the end of the month.

• 1:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, we are going to go back at the end of the month together.

• 1:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I haven't gotten my, like, my full before my wedding and my special Daxify refresh. So we're booked for the 29th, so I hope you can make it. 3pm.

• 1:27Rayna Greenberg?

  It's been, it's been on my thing for a while.

• 1:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, well, I booked you in.

• 1:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, well, thank you. All right, well, maybe we're done.

• 1:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, well, let's just talk about our partners and then we will make our announcement.

• 1:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, thanks to Function, our first 1,000 listeners get a $100 credit towards your membership at functionhealth.com/gge or use the code GGE100. And Smart Mouth, get a special discount on your next Smart Mouth purchase at smartmouth.com/gge. And finally, Zbiotics, get 15% off your first order at zbiotics.com/gge with code GGE.

• 1:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to Rocket Money. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at rocketmoney.com/gge. And Saks Fifth Avenue, head to Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style every day. And thank you to AG1. Get a free, what is that supposed to say? Because this says brother.

• 2:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Frother.

• 2:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Frother, okay.

• 2:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Free brother.

• 2:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 2:23Rayna Greenberg?

  It was a Freudian slip.

• 2:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God. Raina, you've gotta get these dialed in.

• 2:29Rayna Greenberg?

  They're dialed.

• 2:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Keep this in.

• 2:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Brother. This is an episode about your fucked up family, people.

• 2:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Get a free brother. Thank you to AG1 for this stage. Get a free frother with your first purchase of AGZ at drinkagi.com/gge.

• 2:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Replace your brother with something free. Thanks for fixing my family. I've got a new brother. Can I train him, my brother? Okay, guys, brrr brrr brrr. Let's get ready for it. Let's get ready for the announcement.

• 3:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 3:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 3:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't look at you.

• 3:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  We are doing.

• 3:17Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't look at you like this.

• 3:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  We are doing holiday shows in New York, in LA. You guys, we have not done shows all year, but we could not deprive you of the holiday shows. I can't look at you like this. Ashley, if you're not watching, Ashley's wearing the Grinch hands. Grinch hands. I've really tried to get a mask in time, but they just like grossed me out. So, anyway, we do have a Grinch mask from a holiday show last year, but one of the strippers has it. Well, I think one of the strippers has it. And I was like, I'm not gonna, you know.

• 3:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Was it that hot one that tried to sleep with me?

• 3:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  But the hottest one has it. And then Raina is wearing a real throwback GGE merch. Leave his jingle bells on blue, which is a nod to Cardi B's, leave his text on red and his balls on blue. So that was probably 2018 when that song came out.

• 4:10Rayna Greenberg?

  This was Christmas of 2018.

• 4:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 4:12Rayna Greenberg?

  When this merch came out. So we're really excited. You guys know that we would never leave you hanging. Our holiday shows are our favorite thing that we do. Every single year, we do it bigger, better, wilder. You can't even touch a screen, can you, with those? So there's gonna be two holiday shows. I'm gonna keep smart touch technology.

• 4:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Why don't my Grinch?

• 4:30Rayna Greenberg?

  No one's gonna let you touch them with that.

• 4:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Finger somebody with that afterwards. So we're doing two shows and two nights only, you guys. So we will be in LA at the United Theater, December 6th, Saturday night. And then we're coming to New York, December 13th, also Saturday night. We're taking it to Brooklyn, BAM Theater.

• 4:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, Brooklyn Academy of Music, BAM Theater, right across the bridge. We did Brooklyn, one year we did the Bell House. Those shows were lit. And we have always wanted to mix it up. And we've done the Beacon twice, sold it out twice. And we've done the Apollo Theater. And so we were like, what can we do that's different? And this is such a beautiful theater. We've been there, seen people tape their specials there. And so we're super excited. And then the United Theater was formerly the ACE and we did a show there. It is stunning. Such a great place in LA. We made sure we had two Saturday nights. You guys can make the trip, travel for these shows. I mean, you know, we always blow it out for holiday shows. It is the one tradition we've had since the start. Since our first year, 2018, we did holiday shows and we had a bunch of different performers and dancers and elements to it. And we're just gonna do it bigger and better.

• 5:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're gonna blow it out, fucking full throttle on the outfits.

• 5:34Rayna Greenberg?

  No boundaries.

• 5:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  The costumes at this point.

• 5:36Rayna Greenberg?

  The costumes.

• 5:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  See what Raina's gonna wear. And, you know, we share never before told stories and we have special guests. We have giveaways and gifts for you guys and dancers and music and performers. And it's just gonna be epic and we can't wait to see you there.

• 5:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, so you guys, mark your calendars. We're announcing it today. The tickets go on sale next week, so next Monday, September 22nd, 10 a.m. local time. So mark your calendars, tell your friends. People travel for these shows. They sell really, really fast. This is a tradition that people have had for many years with us. So if you've come before, we can't wait to see you there. And I just can't wait to do it.

• 6:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, so girlsgottaeat.com is where the links are gonna be. So you can get tickets there, set your reminders. These are probably gonna go quick. I mean, only two, we're really doing it. I'm gonna be a wife.

• 6:22Rayna Greenberg?

  That's crazy. I think about it sometimes and just laugh.

• 6:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, as wife.

• 6:27Rayna Greenberg?

  You're gonna start my husband.

• 6:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm gonna get used to it.

• 6:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Raina, I just can't. I mean, it's cool. It's cool to have a husband, I guess.

• 6:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'll get used to it, but.

• 6:35Rayna Greenberg?

  I think about it sometimes and I'm just like, that's so crazy. Like, I think about how exciting for your wedding and then I just like, forget that you're just gonna like, be a wife after that.

• 6:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  So come to the shows before I start my trad wife era. This is my, my grand finale. No, but we are just really so excited and so we cannot wait to see you guys there.

• 6:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, we can't wait, you guys.

• 6:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  I cannot wait to see what you're gonna wear.

• 6:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't wait to see what I'm gonna wear.

• 6:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Who's to say?

• 6:57Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, all this stuff I've been wearing, I just, I really like, last year I was like a sexy Santa and I can't do that again, so.

• 7:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Sexy green?

• 7:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Maybe.

• 7:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  In the bar of the hands?

• 7:05Rayna Greenberg?

  That color, that green's not really my color.

• 7:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's like brat green.

• 7:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, huh, huh, maybe. Alright, you guys just stay tuned. So that'll be on sale next week, girlsgottaeat.com.

• 7:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, girlsgottaeat.com and then of course we will be at Lady World. You guys can also get tickets on, at girlsgottaeat.com. So those are really the three things we're doing till the end of the year. We will be at Lady World, which is a festival in Miramar Beach, Florida, put on by Lady Gang Podcast and a bunch of performers. It's gonna be incredible. So we will be there end of September, doing a show there. And then December is just, it's gonna be Girls Gotta Eat December.

• 7:37Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't wait. I'm so excited, you guys.

• 7:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can't wait. So I have a personal update. My dad got a hip replacement today.

• 7:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Your mom just texted me back.

• 7:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  She did, yeah. So I, I just feel really emotional. This has been a long, frustrating road for our family. Because he's just been so stubborn about it and he's put it off and he's tried to go every other route before doing this. Even though it's such an easy surgery, I mean, I guess of course people have probably had complications, but it's one of the easier surgeries you can do. And he thought he had something wrong with his back. I mean, this has been probably two years. Like I think I was telling you about this and I was upset about this back when you lived in your old house, I remember. And you know, he's just really had kind of lost a lot of his like physical ability and the way he walks. I mean, he's kind of been limping for quite a while now and it was like kind of in his back, he thought, also his hip.

• 8:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, he's needed a new hip and he's seen so many doctors, he's gone to so much physical therapy and he didn't want to get like a back fusion surgery. And so he's really put this off until it got unbearable, honestly. And I feel like he's Really lost some of his identity. He hasn't been able to ski. He hasn't been able to be as active on the farm. I mean, he's so, so active and he still has been, but I feel like it's been painful for him and he's tried to manage the pain and it's just been a really long journey and us trying to convince him, but you know, you can't convince a stubborn old man like that to do anything. And so we finally came around to it and he finally got the surgery today and all went well. And I gotta show you this video, Raina. So it's quick, you know, and I knew this because I had guy friends who used to work in medical device sales and they'll be in the room sometimes and

• 9:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  it's so, it's quick and easy in your home that night, a lot of times. But I did not expect this. My mom sent me this video. Look at him. He's just up. I've been telling him this.

• 9:23Rayna Greenberg?

  He's up, new hip. He's like, they have him do this like step up thing. I mean, he's gonna be walking with a walker and go and having physical therapy while he gets used to it and everything for a couple of weeks. But look at this man go. I cried when I saw this.

• 9:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm so proud of him. I know. So if you're wondering, yes, I did pull the wedding card to get him to do this. I said, you're not gonna be limping me down the aisle.

• 9:43Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I get really, I get really emotional when you talk about it. And you and I've talked about this offline a lot, but it's hard to see your parents get older and also reach this phase of life where like, they're also wrestling with their own demons of like, my body doesn't work the way it used to. My mind doesn't work the way it used to. And I watch my dad forget stuff sometimes and he'll say like, well, I'm getting older. And it's hard to watch somebody struggle with that phase of life. And somebody like your dad, who's like so physically active and he's a big guy and he's the person that like carries the suitcases and does the work around the farm, like in skis. And it's, it's really hard to accept that your identity is that you're getting older. And I knew he'd be okay. My, it's Sherry, Uncle John's wife. She got a hip replacement and she was same thing, up, moving around. But it sounds terrifying.

• 10:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And he had one friend who had a complication with the catheter. I mean, I think he just had some fears and I think he just came to this on his own. And I joke about the wedding thing, but I do think that was important. I think he wants to walk me down the aisle and be able to dance with me briefly. They told him, you can't fast, they were like, you can slow dance with your daughter, but not fast dance with her. I'm like, yeah, we didn't have like a choreographed routine plan.

• 10:51Rayna Greenberg?

  He was dancing at Matt's wedding.

• 10:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, he'll, he'll get, he'll get on the dance floor. He has some moves, but so I think that was part of it. And maybe that was like the final moment of like, he waited till the last minute until that was really.

• 11:02Rayna Greenberg?

  He really did.

• 11:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And so he talked to enough friends and people who had had it done and told him it was no big deal and. I hope this really does give him back most of his physical ability. I think he still has some issues in his back, but this is like the best we're gonna get. He's not gonna do a back surgery. So I couldn't be happier. I mean, it has been so many conversations between like me and my mom and my brother on like, which strategy do we take to talk to him? Like, should Ashley talk to him? Should Matt talk to him? My mom's like, I can't do anymore, you know? And so I think it's maybe affected some of his relationships, like mainly with my mom. And you know, this is like, personal, but it is something that we all deal with as our parents age. And so it does feel like, once he scheduled the

• 11:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  surgery, we all breathe this collective sigh of relief, and he's been in such good spirits about it. And now it's done. And I just hope this gives him, you know, his identity back.

• 11:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel like I'm gonna cry.

• 11:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, I know. I'm like holding it. I'm just trying to kind of disassociate while I talk about it, because it's been like, the early days of this, and like, seeing him like, limping around, and you know, him not picking up, being able to pick my suitcase up and do those things. It's so hard. And cognitively, my parents are both really still there, and they're really healthy. And I'm so lucky for that. And that's not a lot of people's story. And so to have that, and just to have this one thing holding him back, we're like, just fucking fix it. Like, just try, at least, like, just try. Like, you're lucky to have the resources and the insurance, or the money, or whatever it is, to just take your health into your own hands.

• 12:34Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I really encourage people to talk to your parents about this stuff, and it sounds like so. Like, mom's telling you what to do. But like, we have another friend also, who's, she was encouraging her father to get his heart checked, and he's of the same age. He's stubborn. Men are so stubborn as they get older. And she was like, please go do this. And he kept avoiding it. And he, he did. And there was some pretty serious complications. And she was able to convince him to like, get surgery and take care of himself. And God forbid, had she not stayed on top of him. And I, I think like, you know, these men, as they get older, they're so stubborn and they're not gonna listen to you. And these conversations are like, they treat you like you're crazy. Like, you're the child, back off of me. And it doesn't matter. Like, stay fucking on them.

• 13:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, stay vigilant.

• 13:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't imagine, like, your dad, if this just got worse. I mean, to be in pain every day is my worst nightmare, chronic pain.

• 13:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Chronic pain, yeah. So I hope this fixes it. And I mean, to me, I'm just like, even it's the back and the hip. Fix one. Cause you have the back and it's weighing on the hip. You have no cartilage left in your hip. You know, like, this should work wonders for him. And so, I mean, he's gonna come to the special taping. Like, I think that's like, the first time he'll really step out.

• 13:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Stepping out.

• 13:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Show off, show off that new hip. And so, yeah, but I have been joking about it, that I really, like, this was my bridezilla moment. And I was like, don't you dare come to the wedding if you don't get a hip replacement. Let me see that hip. Let me see what that hip do.

• 13:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I wanna see him comfy, in a suit.

• 13:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly.

• 13:58Rayna Greenberg?

  You know, looking as hot as he is.

• 13:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're trying to get him in a tux.

• 14:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Is he wearing a tux?

• 14:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're trying to get him in one.

• 14:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I just ordered my suit yesterday.

• 14:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's gonna be in a tux.

• 14:06Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm gonna wear a suit to marry you. I have one outfit left. I got my Halloween costume. I got my Indian outfit. I got my suit to marry you. I need one more outfit.

• 14:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 14:14Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm very excited. Ah, it's really happening.

• 14:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so what is going on with you?

• 14:18Rayna Greenberg?

  My only news is that I'm on a friendship journey. I don't wanna be. I don't wanna be.

• 14:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  No new friends?

• 14:25Rayna Greenberg?

  You and I had this crazy mass exodus from LA in the last, like, six months, really. Where, like, some of my closest girlfriends have left. We have lost, like, a bunch of friends that are couples. I mean, you lose two people in one foul swoop. It's crazy.

• 14:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 14:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Multiple couples. And then, I just feel like people just haven't been around this summer. And I went back to New York for, like, a few weeks. And, like, every second of my day was filled with people. And that's how I think you and I are used to living. That's how I like to live. And I came back here, and I've just been, like, a little disappointed in all the social life that you and I used to last year. And I don't know, some, I was talking to my dad about it, and he was like, so make new friends. And it's like, I think people say that really flippantly, but like, one of the most number one questions we've gotten for eight years of the show is like, how do I make new friends?

• 15:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's frustrating, because I don't need any more friends. I'm having a hard time keeping up with my friends. Like, I have a friend right now dealing with a very serious health issue like I have, there's always something going on. I mean, we're aging too and people's parents are dying. I mean, like, I feel like I sometimes don't have enough capacity to be a good friend to all of my friends. I had three bachelorette parties. Like, I got enough friends. It's like, they're just not here. And the same with you. And we had this point in LA where we were like, we have too many friends. Everybody's here. Too many groups of friends. Like, our weekends were always so full. We were doing so much. And then, again, everybody, a lot of people move back to New York or they move somewhere else, or they're just, it's just crazy. Like, this isn't like friend breakups we're not talking about. This is like, people just are gone. They left.

• 15:48Rayna Greenberg?

  One girl got a boyfriend, never talked to us again.

• 15:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's true. Yep, that's true. You know, we did lose one that way.

• 15:53Rayna Greenberg?

  And, you know, RIP to her. You don't want friends like that.

• 15:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Her loss. So, yeah, it's just like, I don't need any more friends. I can't handle any more friends.

• 16:03Rayna Greenberg?

  My dad was like, made new friends. And I was like, I've been doing that. I don't want more friends.

• 16:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Rayna Greenberg?

  I already, I have reinvented my friend group a lot throughout my life because of circumstances. Like, I worked in restaurants my whole life, and then I went into the corporate world. And all my friends I would like, party with late at night, had very different schedules than me then. So I had to like, reinvent that friend group. And then I became a food blogger. And I had all these influencers and media friends. And then you and I went into podcasting and comedy. And we moved to LA. And I've gotten all these groups of friends. I'm tired. I don't want to do it again.

• 16:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, we're, it's, we're full.

• 16:32Rayna Greenberg?

  But now I have to, because all, I can't, you, you know me, I like, hate complaining about something over and over again and not fixing it. So I'm like, I do need more friends.

• 16:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I'm like, half kidding, like, you can always use friends, whatever, but.

• 16:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Kind of.

• 16:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, but I, I mean, I'm just, on that note, I, again, I feel like I've struggled with keeping up with my current friends. But anyway, I want to hear about your friend making journey. Because I don't know about this new person.

• 16:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Me?

• 16:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Weren't you out watching football with some stranger?

• 16:58Rayna Greenberg?

  No, you know her.

• 17:03Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, I always say, like, when people are like, how do I make friends? Unfortunately, the first thing you have to do is say yes to everything. And it's like, stuff you wouldn't have gone to and you wouldn't have done. But like, you can't complain, like, no one's finding me at my house, on my couch. It's like, If you're not trying, and so sometimes you do have to put yourself in situations that like you don't necessarily want to be in and I'm not dangerous situations, but like I feel like hanging out with new people is a lot of social capital on me. Like it's not

• 17:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 17:29Rayna Greenberg?

  as easy and comfortable. And like, I went to the Hamptons a couple of weekends ago. It was like a whole house full of people I didn't know and I like made new friends and I love them. They're gonna be your friends now too.

• 17:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I can't wait.

• 17:39Rayna Greenberg?

  And this weekend I had, I just, I said yes to a bunch of stuff with like, they're, they're friends of good friends of ours.

• 17:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, they've been vetted.

• 17:46Rayna Greenberg?

  And they've been in the mix, but they're not people I have solo plans with typically. And it was nice. I just, I am having to like just say yes. Yesterday I took a walk with a friend of ours ex-girlfriends. Not on purpose, I ran into her, but I was like, oh, she's here.

• 17:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 17:59Rayna Greenberg?

  I'll hang out with her. And I mean, I'm doing it.

• 18:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 18:03Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm really, I'm on a mission. I'm gonna find new friends. Cause I can't complain every single week. I feel like my joke of like, well, you know, I only have three friends. Like I feel like people are getting tired of it and I need a material.

• 18:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're so right. I mean, sometimes you just have to get off the couch. Like I'm thinking of a newer friend that we have and we went out, it was me and you and my fiance and then I invited her and, cause we were in her part of town and she was like, okay. And she showed up and we all hung out all night. And I feel like now, I mean, I'll text with her and like, that's our friend now. You know, and she could have very easily been like, I don't know. Like I don't know them that well. I'm gonna go hang out. And she showed up and hung out with us all night, went to dinner, went to drinks. And so like, that's just an example of being like, I gotta, you know, maybe be a little bit uncomfortable for a minute.

• 18:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. And it's also interesting when you start hanging out with somebody that you've never hung out with on purpose solo. Like they've always been, like our good friend Jackie, she's the connector of a few people. And I, I went to meet this girl Sunday, Sunday morning to watch football, cause it's 10 a.m. here. And I've never hung out with her solo. She's Jackie's good friend and I like her, I know her, but I don't know her like that. And I went to meet her and she was with a bunch of guys I didn't know. And so it was like me and like new people. And it is always like, are, are we in a vibe without like the central connector between the two of us?

• 19:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  But you always will. I mean, you, you get along. I've never seen someone get along with people like you. I mean, I know sometimes you be faking it, but you, and that you're not like a fake person, but you really can. You might never talk to that person again, but you can really get along with anybody.

• 19:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. And if I put myself in situations, I'm not saying this about her. I like this girl a lot. But like, even if it happens to be like, you reach out to a person, you don't hang out with that much, you meet people through them. Like I'm

• 19:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly.

• 19:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Met this guy through her that I just really like talking to. He's fun. We're not gonna date, but he's just fun to hang out with. And I, that's how I did it in New York. When I first moved to New York, I would hang out with these people that I'm not friends with anymore. They connect me to meet other friends.

• 19:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I mean, I always use this example for Merrill and I did this Hampton's little share two weekends of summer through someone I got connected to from a friend from Atlanta. And the girl that ran the house, like, we never really vibed that much and we weren't friends. I would say, I mean, we were fine, but like Merrill is what came out of that group. Like, the main core group of the house were not girls I was really ever friends with besides Merrill. And that's one of my best friends. And she came from that. And the connector, I'm not friends with either of the connectors anymore. One of them, I never was. But I was thinking about friends a lot this weekend because I was at Jenny Jones' wedding. So we have a little bit of a former guest update as well. Jenny was on our podcast in summer of 2021 and she shared her breast cancer journey and

• 20:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  her dating while having breast cancer. Also, she had not yet met her now husband. He is wonderful and they just got married this past weekend in Denver, but she's cancer free and we've mentioned on the podcast as well. So anyway, just a little update there. And I just, being at the, her wedding, I mean, I've been friends with her for 10 years and I forgot how many of her friends I knew. Like, I hadn't really thought too deeply about who I was gonna run into at the wedding. And I'm like, this woman and I have been friends for 10 years. Like, I know a lot of her other friends. Like, people kept coming up and I was like, oh, my God, Holly. Like, this one girl who she lived with in Austin, when I met Jenny, she lived in Austin and she shortly moved to Atlanta shortly thereafter. We had like our Atlanta era. Her roommate at the time was this woman, Holly. If you're listening to Hi Holly. And I, I haven't thought

• 21:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  about her in years, but I knew her. We see her and her husband in the lobby of the hotel in the morning. And she's like, Ashley? I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I haven't even, I wasn't thinking about people like her. We hung out with them all night. My fiance loved her husband, like, people like that. And just people kept coming up. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I love this. I love that of like, long friendships and you know these people's other friends and everybody's obviously there to celebrate her. And in general, I just love that she waited to find her person. She just turned 40 and she's getting married. And it was nice to Be around that too.

• 22:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it looked really wonderful. I was invited. I didn't end up going unfortunately, but.

• 22:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  It was fun. They did like, they got married small. I wasn't at that. It was just like, just pretty much family and like very, very best friends, like in their backyard on Friday night. And then they just had the party Saturday night and it was like a rave vibe. It was just like a dance party. There was pizza. It was like casual and really fun.

• 22:19Rayna Greenberg?

  I have to ask you a question. So she, I knew it was a rave vibe. What instructions did she give you? Because if somebody had told me rave vibe, I would have shown up looking insane.

• 22:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  You would have nailed it.

• 22:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but you wore like a normal.

• 22:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but I kind of have some regrets.

• 22:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but either outfit you wore were still things you could wear in public. Instead, people would be like, she looks lovely.

• 22:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 22:40Rayna Greenberg?

  I would have looked insane.

• 22:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  She admittedly was like, I gave y'all a tough dress code and she did make mood boards.

• 22:48Rayna Greenberg?

  She did send the mood boards.

• 22:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  There was a Pinterest board, but she said like fancy festival. And so people went two different directions. I mean, I wore a dress that was like an ombre vibe. Like I, I look back and I'm like, that was the wrong fit. I should have worn something I already had. Like we have plenty of these clothes, sequins and jumpsuits. And I just, people were there and like, damn, I should have dressed like that. Like the vibe was just whatever, whatever.

• 23:13Rayna Greenberg?

  But it was a wedding. Like it's like, I threw this birthday party this summer and it was like a festival.

• 23:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Similar vibe.

• 23:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I would not have known what to do because I was like, I would have shown up looking crazy at this wedding. You still wore like a wedding.

• 23:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I didn't need to.

• 23:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Were people's butts out? Jenny's outfit was great.

• 23:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  There were some butts out. It was, it was just a party. I mean, they'd already gotten married the night before. So Jenny wore her wedding dress at the beginning of that. So you could see it. And then she changed into this like sequin look that was like something you'd wear to a live show.

• 23:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Costume.

• 23:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I kind of wish you would have been there.

• 23:45Rayna Greenberg?

  I was just in Denver. I was on travel. I was gone for three days.

• 23:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, no, it was great. But you were missed and it was fun. So anyway, congrats to her and her husband, Mica. And she still gets messages about coming on our show. And just one in particular, she showed me that was like, I heard you when girls got to eat and I followed you ever since. And you've really shown me that you should never settle and wait till you find your person. And you know, I think about the guy Jenny was dating when she found out she had cancer, just like. Ugh, the worst guy. She submitted him for the X game on, at the bachelorette party. Like, imagine if she would have, like, been married to that fucking guy and gone through this with somebody like that. You know, she has the best, most supportive, most fun, most hot partner, and she waited to find the right person. I just love the message.

• 24:25Rayna Greenberg?

  I love it. Also, as you're talking, I had this idea, should we do a where are they now episode with our guests? And they each has to send us like a three minute video about like what's up since they were on.

• 24:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that.

• 24:35Rayna Greenberg?

  And then we just edit it together.

• 24:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, we used to do where are they now for our crazy emails, like bunyan girl and like foot job girl and like.

• 24:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Your fiance was an email. Where are they now?

• 24:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Marry Ashley.

• 24:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Marry their hall pass.

• 24:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Crazy. I like that idea. Yeah, we can do some guest updates.

• 24:53Rayna Greenberg?

  We'll think about it.

• 24:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Someone's like, ah, hi, I'm in prison.

• 24:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Can you imagine?

• 24:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, there's probably nobody.

• 24:58Rayna Greenberg?

  No, we have good guests.

• 24:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 25:00Rayna Greenberg?

  And we talk shit on them probably pretty publicly if they weren't good guests. Okay, well, let's just thank our partners and get in our episode. I'm very, really, really, I'm very, really, I'm really excited for this one. I loved Ingrid's book. I think it's just a really beautiful episode.

• 25:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, so we will get into it with her. You guys are gonna love it.

• 25:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, Function. Function because it is the only health platform that gives me data most people never get, and the insights to start doing something about it. Inside Function, you get access to test over a hundred plus biomarkers from hormones to toxins to markers of heart health, inflammation, and stress. For an additional fee, you can also access MRI and chest CT scans, all tracked in one secure place over time. It's a near 360 degree view to better see what's happening in your body, and that is why top health leaders are all behind Function Health. I mean, there's so many things that this tests for, and I absolutely love all of the different options. And if you're just thinking, I want to know what's going on, it will test for cholesterol, metabolism, thyroid dysfunction, immune responses.

• 25:57Rayna Greenberg?

  And when you think about the situations you are in day to day, even just household toxins in your home, what is in nonstick cookware, what's in the air you breathe, the fabrics that you use, the water that you drink? And I don't think that everything is out to get me all the time, but you know, you and I travel so much. You just never know, like, what is in the air in your home, in an airport, at a hotel, all these things.

• 26:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  And early detection of anything. I mean, how many times is not to get too dark is, you know, someone finds out they have something wrong with their health and it's like they wish they would have known years earlier, months earlier even sometimes.

• 26:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes. I use this and you should too. Learn more and join using our link. Function is a near 360 degree. View to see what's happening in your body and our first 1,000 listeners get a $100 credit towards their membership. Visit functionhealth.com/gge or use gift code GGE100 at sign up to own your health.

• 26:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, and this episode is also brought to you by Saks Fifth Avenue. We love Saks so much. I was just on their website looking. I've got to really limit myself though, because I will just be like, I want everything.

• 27:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I'll replace my whole wardrobe.

• 27:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, you can replace your whole wardrobe. We were talking about what to wear to a wedding. I mean, any formal, semi-formal fancy event you have, like head straight to Saks. But of course, you can also get workout gear and work clothes and everyday items. They have so many designers that we love. So Alice and Olivia obsessed from your Burberry to your Chloe to Gucci, of course, Miu Miu, Prada, and then Veronica Beard. I mean, they even have lower priced brands like a good American. They really have it all. And you can shop their site or you can, of course, go to the store. They have in-store stylists. And then, of course, online, you can see the way that they style stuff and pair stuff. It's just a great shopping experience. I mean, I'm on the site and I'm just like, I really need everything. And right on the homepage, you can see stuff that just went

• 27:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  on sale. You can get first dibs on new markdowns. I'm just seeing things at so many different price points. Oh, my God, this gorgeous tote, these Alice and Olivia pants, they're on sale, half off. I'm going to need those. Going to throw those in the bag. These sandals, heels, I mean, all the things. Okay, I need to stop. So we just really love Saks so much and we are so happy to have them as a partner. I want you guys to check them out. They have clothing for truly every occasion from a wedding to a workout and at various price points. So if you are like us and you are in your fashion era, or you just need a closet refresh for fall, head to Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com to shop.

• 28:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, and smart mouth. So if you are a coffee drinker, you're a garlic lover, you're someone who never wants to kind of like think about your breath. Smart Mouth has you covered. It gives you fresh breath confidence for a night out or a night in for the date. Peace of mind knowing you'll never wake up with morning breath again. Smart Mouth is the only mouthwash scientifically proven to give you 24 hours of fresh breath with just two rinses a day. And the secret is their dual solution smart zinc technology. As you pour, the two solutions activate billions of zinc ions that instantly eliminate bad breath and keep it away all day. It's backed by science, developed by dentists, and now it's even easier to use there with their new Snap Top Bottle. Same 24 hour fresh breath with effortless convenience. I mean, who doesn't want good breath?

• 29:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I love this and I formerly was not really like a mouthwash person. My fiance is a mouthwash obsessed.

• 29:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, really?

• 29:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mouthwash every time he brushes. And so we got a bunch of this. And so I've started using it. I got him on it. He approves it. He's like mouthwash king. So if he approves, you know, it's, it's fine by me. And I've been using it and I'm really into it too. It doesn't leave like this lingering aftertaste. I feel like that's why I haven't liked mouthwash before.

• 29:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Uh huh.

• 29:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I feel like this is just really like cleaned, fresh, doesn't leave that aftertaste, except your mouth just feel obviously like super clean.

• 29:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, absolutely. It's like just so important. Who wants to roll around with bad breath?

• 29:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know, it really is. I'm a believer.

• 29:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Never have bad breath again. Find Smart Mouth at Walgreens, Walmart, and Amazon, or visit smartmouth.com/gge to snag a special discount on your next Smart Mouth purchase. That's www.s m a r t m o u t h dot com slash gge. And don't miss out on 24 hour fresh breath. Your mouth will thank you.

• 30:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, let's get into it.

• 30:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, guys, we are very excited to welcome our guest today. She is a clinical psychologist, author, and trauma expert with over 16 years of experience helping clients navigate the deep roots of relational trauma. Her new book, Fawning: Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves and How to Find Our Way Back, is out now, which explores people pleasing as a survival response. Please welcome to the show Dr. Ingrid Clayton.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you for having me.

• 30:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome. Congrats on the book.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Thank you so much. I love the Barker's beauty reveal there.

• 30:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's really all I do here. I'm just the Vanna White of the podcast.

• 30:41Rayna Greenberg?

  No, you did it really great. When you held it up, I was like, look at her go. And the cover is beautiful. Ashlyn, I love an ombre. Can't get enough of the pink to orange ombre. They did a great job.

• 30:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  We've seen every book cover and we go really judgy. And so I'm just a real font slut and I love the colors.

• 30:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Yay, yay, yay. I'm so glad. Thank you. And the stuff in the book is fantastic.

• 31:04Rayna Greenberg?

  We're really excited to have you. You came to us recommended by Dr. Ramini Dervosila, who we've done several episodes on about specifically narcissism. And what she's done is pick like a very specific psychological term and made it her expertise. And you have done that with something else, which we'll unpack today. But the book was hard to read, but a pleasure to read and really, really well done. So.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Thank you for reading it and having me here.

• 31:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Of course. So can we just talk a little bit about your background? You can start wherever you have a personal story as well, but also just this being your expertise? And was it always in the vein that we just talked about Dr. Ramini? Like she chose the thing and then went for it? And I'm just curious how that came about with you?

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Well, as you know, I start the book when I'm 13 years old in the hot tub with my stepfather. So I have been trying to unpack what I now know is a chronic experience of the fawning, the fawning trauma response my entire life. I'm including getting three degrees in psychology. You know, next month, God willing, I'll be 30 years sober. I've done all the programs. I've read all the books. And there was something that was still keeping me so stuck. And when you've read all the books and taken the questionnaires and you still feel like it's just me, I'm the only one, it just kind of doubles down on the shame that you're holding, this feeling that it just must be me, I'm broken.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  And, you know, eventually in my private practice, I started to specialize in trauma, which led to working with complex trauma, which is synonymous with relational trauma or childhood trauma. And I still didn't think, you know, I was sharing with you a little bit before, Raina, like, I don't have trauma. My story's. Not that bad. There's this idea that trauma is specific to these concrete, you know, single incident events that everyone can agree is traumatic. And what we now know with complex trauma is that that is simply not true. And so first, getting this introduction to complex trauma gave me a new lens on my own life.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  And then I wrote a memoir, not by choice, but by deep calling, a deep breakdown. And after five years of writing, not just my childhood story, but all my dysfunctional relationships and all these patterns that I could not break free from, I could see my own story through a clinical psychologist's eyes. It's not like I wasn't sitting on a lot of therapy couches because I was doing that too. But none of it had revealed to me what this process did. And so first with my memoir, I said, if I have all this knowledge and information and I was still feeling so stuck, how many people are living this way? And, you know, then coming to find that big publishing wanted a book on fawning.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  And I just, my whole body lit up like nothing ever has. And I said, that's my book, that's my topic. So I come at it from this deep, deep lived experience, which I think honestly is probably more important than my clinical experience. I feel like, yes, we have a lot of research to do, but you have to turn to the people that are living with the thing, whatever it is, I think, to really understand it. And so I turned to my practice. I have seven clients that I've been working with, you know, between one and 16 years in the book. And I said, would you be willing to share your experience on fawning? And they were so generous, they all said yes. And it's my story and it's their story because it's time to finally have this conversation.

• 34:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, thank you for sharing that. And we don't need to gloss over your story. I mean, we want everyone to read your book, of course. But it's essentially, I mean, it was grooming and, I mean, child abuse. Obviously, it was a tough to read. It's really just, you know, filled me with a lot of anger and, you know, and sadness for people who've experienced anything like that. Do you feel like that was kind of the start of all this that led you into like dysfunctional relationships you talked about later, like that was really the catalyst?

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Yes, because you know, when we think about childhood in particular, so basically, you know, we're talking about fawning as a trauma response and what most of us have known for a long time is fight, flight and freeze. But if you think about childhood in particular, we need our caregivers longer than any other species. We are dependent on them. These are vital relationships. In my personal experience and many of my clients, a fight response might not be available to you, right? It's gonna make things worse. A flight response, where are you gonna go? You're gonna be brought right back to the scene of the crime essentially. And so, fawning became this way for me to navigate the daily, chronic, ongoing, pervasive

• 35:48Speaker 02

  experiences of not only threats to my sense of safety, but I had to maintain these relationships with these, you know, primary attachment figures. So, fawning becomes this really genius adaptive way to do that. And it can look like on one hand, leaning in to sort of caretake and like with my mom, who was absent, I could sort of endow her with all this goodness and if she could, she would and maybe I can help her. And with my stepdad, you know, it was this like flirting and flattering and appeasing to try to keep him just at bay, right? So I can maintain a sense of myself.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  So, it looks different depending on the context, but it's essentially this shape shifting to manage the moods and states of those in charge.

• 36:38Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm glad that you named it, because I had such a light bulb moment when I was reading this, because of course, if you depend on somebody for shelter and food,

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:47Rayna Greenberg?

  there's no fight and flight response.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Of course, like you said, where are you gonna go? You have to placate and

• 36:52Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 36:53Rayna Greenberg?

  of course, what you experienced is child abuse and it's hard to read and you know, I really, Ashley, my, our hearts broke to read what you experienced, but zooming out from that, lots of women feel like this, minorities at times.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 37:07Rayna Greenberg?

  You touch on lots of different categories of people that experience this and where the option isn't to not assimilate.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right. I think it's all systems of power, right? And so I really touch on that in fawning, that Again, if you think all of these survival responses or trauma responses, whatever you want to call them, they're based on what we know about the animal defenses. And so if you look in the animal kingdom, it's really obvious.

• 37:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  He knew that was coming.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  The animal kingdom, you say.

• 37:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's really empathetic.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  That, right, the lion, the king of the jungle, is entitled, at the top of the food chain, to having a voice and setting healthy boundaries, right? This is my territory. But that our bodies know intuitively where we reside in that pecking order. And that determines what responses are available. So, yes, it's not just in childhood, but you think about patriarchy and people of color, all marginalized communities. You even think about people that are, you know, they're a religious community, or, like, we need to affiliate. It might be your whole life that we're talking about, right? That your identity is tied to these different places and spaces. You're not going to go against the grain,

• 38:21Speaker 02

  because look, look at what you might be sacrificing. It could be everything. You're in a bind, right? So the body has to choose. And often, in these cases, it chooses a sense of safety and relationship over self.

• 38:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  So it really is the fourth response, like, when we have fight, flight, freeze, fawn?

• 38:44Speaker 02

  It's the fourth F, right? Because there are, there are more, but I think these are sort of the biggies that, that we're speaking to now, yeah.

• 38:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  And it just, if we're defining it, it just is to placate, to lean in, to almost appear that you are obviously fine or even enjoy what's happening?

• 39:01Speaker 02

  I think that's a great way to explain it. It's the leaning in. And so in that way, it's the trauma response that hides in plain sight. Because it does look like, even to the person who's experiencing it, like, hey, how you doing? Right? I'm choosing to be here. I'm perfectly fine with what's happening. So, the distinguishing factor between fawning and, say, what we've called people-pleasing or even codependency, is that it is an uncon- Conscious reflex.

• 39:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  Right? No one's choosing to do this. It's also why I started with that story of me being thirteen. I didn't choose to lean into relationship with my stepdad. I was almost witnessing it from practically an out of body place like, wow, this is, this is what's happening. And so when you say to people, well, just set a boundary, right? Just grow your self esteem.

• 39:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  You're using a very conscious rational strategy that I would go, yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. Right? But it's not available to me.

• 40:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Sure. It's really reductive. And I think that people are so well intentioned when they say, well, why don't you draw a boundary? Why don't you explain how you're feeling? Why don't you tell your other parent? And it's like, well, yeah, I tried all those things before I talked to you about that. And I do want to talk about later, like where this appears all the time. But you know, women in the workplace with their bosses. How many women have been sexually harassed continuously? And you're just gonna go find another job? No, you let that person treat you like that.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 40:27Rayna Greenberg?

  When I was growing up, a lot of people, especially in college, had never met another Jewish person. And made a lot of jokes to me about it. And I chose to laugh at those things and joke around with it because I didn't feel unsafe. And so I was like, it's easier to just go along with this and laugh about it. Looking back, I didn't really stand up for myself the way I wanted to. I assimilated.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, we were talking, I mean, there's such a spectrum. There's of course, a child abuse situation and feeling like you need to placate your stepfather. Who's abusing you? And then there's laughing at a racist joke directed at you. We were talking about this, someone that may grow up as a person of color in an all white community. Or they have all white friend groups and you hear these remarks. And I would hear this back, especially more when I lived in Atlanta. And you know, you would hear the person that was being targeted laugh along. And then that makes all the white people think it's okay. And it's the same thing as you were saying with the Jewish jokes. And you mentioned like, what are you gonna do as a kid to fight or flight? But.

• 41:25Rayna Greenberg?

  That almost feels like, I don't know, as an adult, it's not so easy.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right. Again, depending on where you are, right, in this sort of hierarchy of your life, and if your job is dependent, right, to your point, it's like, I'm not going to look back at my boss and be like, what the hell are you doing? I need that paycheck, right? So many vital relationships of our lives, that that is survival, right? Financial dependency is another aspect of survival. So it's pretty pervasive when you think about all the systems that elicit a fond response, and, quite frankly, that many of us were conditioned to have one, that it's sort of under the guise of respect. It's like, go along, get along, and brush under the rug.

• 42:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Don't be the problem.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Don't be the problem.

• 42:11Rayna Greenberg?

  I didn't want to be like the angry Jewish girl that had a problem with everything.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 42:15Rayna Greenberg?

  I just laughed at it. Yeah.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  You know?

• 42:17Rayna Greenberg?

  That's right. Yeah, you can't joke around with her. Right, right. She can't make a joke. Oh, you know him, you can't make racist jokes at his expense. That's right.

• 42:26Rayna Greenberg?

  It's crazy. So can we talk about, and we do want to talk about people pleasing today, because that's probably what a lot of people relate to, but how does this differ from just like, quote unquote, be nice or people pleasing?

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's the sense of agency. So inherent in this reflexive response, where now I have to orient to you, right, anything external, it's like, do you like me? Do you give me permission? Do you validate me? Are you taking care of me? The focus is completely outside of our own body. And the sad, you know, consequence of that is a disconnect from self. Essentially, it's self-abandonment. So that's the differentiating factor. Am I showing up and am I compulsively volunteering? And am I the friend that always, you know, does all the emotional labor and is happy to stay on the phone with you for three hours, but we never get back to me? Like, am I doing that because it's a conscious choice? Or am

• 43:21Speaker 02

  I doing that because the only safety and connection I've ever known has been to a degree where I don't really get to fully exist?

• 43:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Wow.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Unless I'm prioritizing someone else's needs. So I think it's conscious choice. There's nothing wrong with being kind and being of service. I'm never going to put those things down. But I think a lot of us don't know how those empathic and loving tendencies are being hijacked by a chronic trauma response.

• 43:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 43:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  And like at the expense of your own self.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 43:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  So how does this kind of manifest in real life? What does this look like? How does somebody who's like fawning show up?

• 44:03Speaker 02

  I think that it's, uh, there's conflict avoidance, right? Conflict feels like terror. So to step into healthy conflict, you need to have a healthy fight response, to have a voice. But again, if it's like, I don't really get to be in this relationship where it's reciprocal. I have to sort of shrink myself. We get small, we defer, you know? Where do you want to go to lunch? No, whatever, right? There's this like sort of easygoing vibe that we can have. But then it can also look like it did for me for many years, which is dating the same person over and over with a different face and feeling like, why can't I have a healthy relationship to save my life?

• 44:44Speaker 02

  You sort of see the red flags, but you paint them wide a little bit. It's like, it's gonna get better any day now. And maybe if I help them, if I hang in there, if I be more patient, right? It's, it's those pieces in romantic relationships. So the thing to know is that fawning is context dependent. So that shape shifting notion is like, I lean into whatever this relationship needs me to be. And it might be very different to what this relationship needs me to be.

• 45:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm just curious, what were the patterns in the people you were dating that were the same? Like an avoidant or?

• 45:21Speaker 02

  Yes, avoidant, actively addicted.

• 45:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  So it spanned a spectrum. So some were cheaters, some were liars, some were actively addicted. None of them really wanted to step into a commitment with me. And I stayed and I waited and I hoped until eventually they broke up with me. They couldn't get their financial lives together, right? It's like, I'm trying to get them into therapy and I'll pay for the therapy. It's like, you know, me just running circles around the dysfunction. So the dysfunction could change, but my patterns were very similar.

• 45:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Were you rejecting healthy options or just not seeking them out or finding them?

• 45:58Speaker 02

  Well, this is the tricky thing is that I didn't have any chemistry with healthy options.

• 46:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, right, got it. So not even, they weren't even on the table.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  Not really, because I believed, and this is the other thing I think the window into complex trauma gives us, is that I believed what I was feeling, which now I know was unresolved trauma, was healthy chemistry.

• 46:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  And so I thought, well, you know, I can't manufacture chemistry with a healthy person. And, you know, fast forward, thank goodness, I will have been married to my now husband for 11 years this month, I think. What's current husband?

• 46:32Rayna Greenberg?

  We have, Ashley one time said my current fiance, and a few minutes later, I was like, wait, what?

• 46:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it's a thing.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  But it's your first fiance?

• 46:40Rayna Greenberg?

  It's her first and only.

• 46:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  But, oh, is he not your first?

• 46:44Speaker 02

  He is not my first.

• 46:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're able to say.

• 46:46Rayna Greenberg?

  So you're part of the culture.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  You're teeing up for the future.

• 46:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  There's a comedian that does the current husband thing, and it's, it's his first husband too. It's just very funny. So we just flagged it. But anyway, so we don't want to cut you off. You've been with your current husband for?

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, for 11 years married. And I have to say, when we met, I didn't have that crazy spark, that thing that was like, oh, it's on. And I'm so grateful that I had healed enough at that point that I was like, but I, I want to see you again. I want to spend time. And what I now know is that I was feeling at ease in his presence. I know it can make me cry. I could bring my full self. And I have never, not one time in all of these years, felt unsafe or devalued or not absolutely treasured. There is no drama. There has never been drama.

• 47:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's the two things that we say over and over is feeling at ease, feeling at home, not that nervous anxiety that people mistake for butterflies.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then the only thing I say about seeing someone again is just that you want to see that, like that you feel the urge to hang with them enough. Even if it wasn't the sparks you've come to expect and know, it's just, do you want to just hang out with them one more time?

• 47:57Speaker 02

  That's magic.

• 47:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Just to go for it.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:00Rayna Greenberg?

  I've never heard anybody coin it as I didn't feel chemistry with a healthy relationship. And that is, that is just so true.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I thought I couldn't manufacture it. So what choice did I have but to lean into the one where all of my bells and whistles were like, okay, it's on, you know? And another merry-go-round I went.

• 48:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, thanks for sharing that. We're dating a podcast.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I want to talk it more. Yeah. Okay, we're just going to take a quick break and then we will get back into it. I am telling you guys about AG1 and something new that we haven't told you about before, and that is AGZ. So of course, you have your morning routine with AG1. We are such big fans of doing this in the morning in a cup of ice cold water and really getting all your nutrients to start the day. But AGZ is a nightly drink that is going to help you wind down and rest up. AGZ is a melatonin-free formula with clinically studied herbs, adaptogens, and minerals. So I think this is great. I mean, we've talked about nighttime routines and what's really going to help you get relaxed before you get into bed and again, help you wind down. And I think this is really great for that. I mean, no matter what your sleep is affected by, we've, I've talked about my sleep journey

• 49:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  a lot before. I really had trouble sleeping when I lived in New York. It's improved in LA, but I'm stressed a lot. And like, I just stay up and tossing and turning sometimes at night. I mean, whether you're stressed at work, you're a parent, you're an athlete. I mean, whatever you have going on, sometimes it can affect your ability to wind down and your overall sleep quality can change. This can really improve it, help you sleep better and wake up more refreshed. So it has an herbal flavor and it's going to help put you in the wind down mindset. There are no artificial flavors, artificial sweeteners, or added sugar. You can drink it with water or milk, warm milk before bed vibes. And you can replace your existing magnesium or other sleep supplements because it is an excellent source of magnesium. Each serving of AGZ delivers 250mg of highly bioavailable

• 49:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  magnesium, providing over half of your daily value. So we would love you guys to check this out. We really think it's going to be such a game changer and you can get that free frother because you can put this again, in like a drink and make it kind of frothy and have like a nice little, I don't know, like treat yourself before bedtime. So if you are ready to turn down the stress and focus on the rest, head to drinkagi.com/gge to get a free frother with your first purchase of AGZ. That is drinkagi.com/gge to get a free frother with your first purchase of AGZ. And with prices going up on just about everything lately, you know who to blame.

• 50:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Dealing with money can be stressful. Trying to manage subscriptions, track spending, and cut costs can feel overwhelming. Luckily, Rocket Money can relieve some of that stress and help you feel confident in the financial decisions you make. So Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitor your spending, and help lower your bills. You can grow your savings. I love Rocket Money. The interface is so easy to use. You get in there, they identify all the subscriptions that you are paying for, tons of stuff you probably didn't know you were even paying for. They're gonna help you cancel those if you want. They're gonna show you all your expenses laid out. And so many people say, how do I take care of my personal finances? The episode we had with Tori Dunlap was so fantastic, and people really gravitated towards that. This is a fantastic first step to just seeing it all laid out in one dashboard,

• 51:15Rayna Greenberg?

  and you can figure out what your goals are, what you want to save for. And Rocket Money can even help negotiate lower bills for you, and you'll get alerts as bills increase in price. Rocket Money's 5 million members have saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, with member savings up to 740 a year. When you use the app's premium features, cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com/gge today. That's rocketmoney.com/gge. rocketmoney.com/gge.

• 51:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so Zbiotics, Zbiotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic. I use this, and I think about this a lot. Like, even if I just have like, a drink or two, I just wake up and I don't feel 100%.

• 51:57Rayna Greenberg?

  I know, we talk about it all the time.

• 51:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. So, you know, I really am a moderate drinker, but I was at this wedding this past weekend, and drank more than I typically would, and I took my Zbiotics, and you know, it really did help the next morning. But, you know, I think that we all can kind of relate to just not feeling great the morning after a night out. So, Zbiotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking, because when you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. And it's buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration that's to blame for your rough days after drinking. So the pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. You just have to remember to take it the first drink of the night. So it's this little vial, you just throw it back. They're so cute. Yeah, it's really cute. They're easy to travel with. You can drink responsibly and

• 52:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  you feel your best the next day. So fall is right around the corner. So that means it's time to raise a glass to your favorite team and all the fall activities, whether you're tailgating, enjoying a college game day, watching Sunday's action on your fancy new TV. Don't forget ZBiotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink. Drink a pre-alcohol before drinking and enjoy great days after celebrating all season long. Go to zbiotics.com/gge to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use GG at checkout. ZBiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com/gge and use the code GG at checkout for 15% off. Thank you, ZBiotics, for sponsoring this episode and our good times.

• 53:24Rayna Greenberg?

  So your story, and you talk about getting sober, you got a psychology degree, you got certifications, but like these problems were still there. And so there's like a term in AA called a dry drunk, somebody that gets sober, but they haven't like healed the issues that made them

• 53:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Become an addict.

• 53:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Become an addict to begin with. And you really did all the things you're supposed to, in quotes, do, which is, it sounds like you got therapy, you got a therapy degree, you got sober, and the problems were still sort of there?

• 53:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 53:50Rayna Greenberg?

  And so like, what did that journey from then to finding this really solid partner look like?

• 53:55Speaker 02

  Well, I see this with my clients a lot. They have equally done all the things. They tell me their attachment style, right? They break out like an entire resume about everything that they've done to sort of heal themselves. But just like them, I was doing those things to almost become a different version of me. I was doing those things to override my wounding, my experiences. So if we look at my history, I was essentially not seen, not taken care of, right? Worth is the wound. Okay? And this is so true for many of us. So if I don't feel worthy out of the gates, well, I need to go and make myself worthy. And so we pursue self-help and therapy and all of these things as though it's going to render us one day

• 54:40Speaker 02

  worthy. And when we do that, we're perpetuating the same problem. Does that make sense?

• 54:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. You wrote in the book that often people that grew up fawning present as really high functioning and they're very successful because they've thrived in other areas of their life.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I was curious. Even this may resonate with the audience and just in general, your personal experiences with clients.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Are you talking to clients and they're having a lightbulb moment that they're even doing this?

• 55:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 55:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like they wouldn't have thought that they were.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  100%. Most of my clients don't come to me, or they didn't historically, saying, Ingrid, I have unresolved complex trauma and I'm stuck in a chronic fawn response, right? They came because they had dysfunctional relationships or they wanted to date, but they couldn't date, or, you know, a host of other things. And when I present to them this paradigm, they go, okay, I can, you know, start to see myself. But it can be a tough sell, I think, A, because the language of trauma. And people say, well, I don't want to apply that to my own life. And I can understand that to a degree.

• 55:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you say people rank their trauma and they say, I didn't have this event, so I wasn't traumatized.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  My story's not that bad, Ingrid. You know, I was saying to you that people can point to the book and you were both so kind to say, like, it was hard to read my story, but I guarantee you for decades, I was like, my story's not that, my story's nothing compared to so many other people, right? We do, we have this trauma measuring stick around, is my story bad enough? And it's also why it's important to name, trauma doesn't happen based on the story at all. Trauma happens based on overwhelm in our nervous system. It's not dependent on this experience or that experience. 10 different people can experience the same exact thing. We see this in family systems all the time. Some people come out traumatized and some people do not, right? So we gotta take the emphasis off the story.

• 56:34Speaker 02

  But once you do start to give people this understanding of like, even pursuing therapy with this idea, like, I have all the answers, and fawners want me to like them as clients.

• 56:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, okay.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Fawners are like, Am I your favorite? Right, tell me. I'm kind of your favorite client, right? And I know this too, from being a client in therapy.

• 56:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know how I know? That's the tell right there.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  That's the tell.

• 57:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do it, that is my... I would walk into therapy like, I don't even know what you're gonna tell me.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  I'm gonna win. That's exactly...

• 57:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm so healed already. I barely even know what you're gonna tell me, because I'm awesome.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  I present a client in the book who said that. And he's this phenomenal, very successful lawyer, partner in a firm. And he was like, Ingrid, I think I'm trying to win therapy. Like, I want you to tell me what to do. I'm gonna go and do it. I'm gonna come back and tell you that I did it for the pat on the head. And I was like, hmm, so you're kind of missing in this whole equation. It's just about pleasing me. I wonder what it would be like if you weren't missing in your own life. And it was like, I'm missing in my own life? I don't even like my job. I have no hobbies. I'm not leaning into dating. It sort of was, it opened up this whole world that he'd been performing, right? Also, a big Foner trait, curating a life.

• 57:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  Rather than inhabiting and living it.

• 57:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  And what a waste of your money.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  Come on, let's go have some fun. Oh, it's so true. Yeah. It's so true, but it's also...

• 58:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Actually not being healed, just to be performing?

• 58:07Speaker 02

  But we don't know that we're performing, right? But this is the other reason why I want, you know, hopefully clinicians to read the book, because we can feel as clinicians like we're doing a great job.

• 58:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  But can't you tell? Like, you're...

• 58:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 58:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  You really... Okay.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  Most therapists still do not have this language and this framework to even be curious.

• 58:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Just this type of person you're talking about? I feel like we've known people like that. We've been on dates with these people that...

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, when you see it, you're not living in your own truth. You're, you don't know who you are.

• 58:39Speaker 02

  I think you're right. And it's a spectrum, like most things, right? So you can really identify, absolutely... I can identify sometimes on the initial phone call, right? I'm like, okay, I know the work that we're gonna be doing here. But I know even for myself as a client in therapy over the years, right? I would be the one who my therapist would be like, okay, can you try to do whatever this intervention is in the session? And they're like, Ingrid, just close your eyes and do this thing. And I would close my eyes. And what I'm literally thinking is... How long do I have to do this until they feel like I've tried their intervention?

• 59:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, totally.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  But I hate this. I don't want to do this, right? And I didn't want them to be mad at me or think that I wasn't willing to try, right? All these other things. And I was convincing. I know that I was.

• 59:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  And now I know that my job is partially to disappoint my therapist, right? And I do now. My therapist Holly, if she told me like, Ingrid, go inside and close your eyes. And I'd be like, Holly, I hate this right now. Like, that's-

• 59:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Doesn't that feel good?

• 59:41Speaker 02

  Yes. It's night and day. It's night and day.

• 59:45Rayna Greenberg?

  It's really interesting. Yeah.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  Or, because here's the truth. If we're talking about moving from a life of disconnection to self, gosh, this makes me emotional. For me to identify, first just identify, I hate this. Something is coming up in me. And then to be able to say it out loud to another person that I feel like I'm disappointing, you can see why that is the miraculous moment that starts to change your life in therapy, is to say, I hate this. Because my therapist is a trauma therapist and she can go, okay, can we notice that? Can we notice the hate? Can we notice what that feels like in your body? I wonder if it makes you think of anything else, right? And then we're off to the races.

• 1:00:25Rayna Greenberg?

  It makes me think of also your childhood and where this comes from is you told your parents, told your mother what was happening, and she invalidated you.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:34Rayna Greenberg?

  And she robbed you of a sense of feeling safe and heard and understood. And so, of course, that manifests in a, I don't want to tell people what's really going wrong. Because they'll invalidate me and I'm not used to being told that I'm right. And so, I'm just going to do my best to be as good as I am and as good as I am. But it's hard to tell people, you're letting me down, or I hate this.

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  Completely. I think it also leads to that other point of that sort of high-functioning presentation. It's like, well, because we have to be that self-reliant, you know? I can't count on you or you or you. I've got to figure it out. And so, we do, right? And in a way, that's amazing and it's resilient, but it's also frickin' lonely and sad, right? We're not having real relationships from that place. So, I want us to have self-reliance, but I also want us to feel like we can be a little bit safer in the world.

• 1:01:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is a little off track, but I'm just really curious. With your current husband- Did you have any blips as you were getting into a relationship with him where you wanted to?

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  Run?

• 1:01:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:01:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, because it felt healthy?

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  It felt healthy and I was pretty hypervigilant because I'm like, I'd been married before and it went horribly, you know, bad. It was over within a year and a half. And I found all the hidden vodka bottles in the closet that I didn't know were there, but I also knew exactly where to look. Right, so, but, so I was looking for the red flags, you know, before Yancy and I got married. And, listen, he's a whole human being. He has flaws. Similarly, we're on a journey. But what I discovered in that is when I brought my concerns to him, he did not gaslight me.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  He did not say, oh, that's a you problem, right? He didn't say, I don't know what you're talking about. He goes, oh, yeah, that makes sense that you would feel that way. He was, right? Whoa, he was willing to take personal responsibility and, and he's like, I'm in no rush. Whatever you need. I mean, I get goosebumps, like paradigm shift, right? And then I have a lovely mentor who at the time I brought my concerns to, his name is Bill, and Bill said, Ingrid, you've always worked so hard to make the wrong person right, and now you're trying real hard to make the right person wrong.

• 1:03:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm going to burst into tears. That is like such an amazing quote. I feel like it's going to hit people.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:03:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my gosh, how many people have been, just had the moment of, I've been doing that my whole life?

• 1:03:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Every second of his interview.

• 1:03:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, yeah, right. And I'm like, can we go back to your life old moment? Do you want to share it?

• 1:03:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I do want to just also share, like, you know, we, I wrote, I took a lot of notes, obviously, from your book, but, you know, one of the things you talk about is apologizing to those who have hurt us. And it sounds like your current husband doesn't make you do that anymore. Like, you say you've hurt me and his response is, let's talk about it.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:03:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  I, I'm sorry.

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:03:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're wrong.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  That's right. Or deep curiosity, right? And one of my favorite things that my husband Yancy says is there are no shoulds in this family, and he really means it. Like, he doesn't have to be a particular way. I don't have to be a particular way. There is room for, you know, two and now three, because my son just turned 10 this weekend. All three of us to be whole people. It is profound. It's so different. Yeah.

• 1:04:03Rayna Greenberg?

  It must just feel really different to be able to like, say, I feel this thing, and not feel like you're gonna be like, ripped apart.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the scary things, the scary, dark things, right? Like, we're talking about even saying the simple things were hard. And so now pulling on the really hard stuff and having equal room to be able to talk about it. There are no words, the gift that that gives to me, as someone who will be continually healing for the rest of my life.

• 1:04:32Rayna Greenberg?

  I relate to this as somebody who grew up feeling invalidated a lot.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Rayna Greenberg?

  And it very much manifested in my conflict style and not telling people that they were hurting me or upsetting me or bothering me. And it would make me, we used to talk about this more in earlier days of the podcast, because I think I've worked really hard to change, and my relationship with Ashley has done that, my relationship with my brother has done that. And people saying to me, like, you avoid talking to me when you're upset, and it makes me feel like you don't love me or care. I just, I flat, my brother said it to me one day, and he was like, you just, you're mad at me about something, and you just stop talking to me. And really, like, I would just be really upset and feel like if I told him something, it would be invalidated. And that's not what he ended up doing. So it's been a life of, you know, trying to unweave that and be really comfortable with conflict. And I am now. I'm proud to say, like, I

• 1:05:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Ashley's like, she loves conflict.

• 1:05:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, the growth. I mean, it's just, it's, I mean, we've been together doing this for eight years, and we've both changed and grown a lot.

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:05:26Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm She's become less

• 1:05:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm less reactive.

• 1:05:28Rayna Greenberg?

  conflict oriented.

• 1:05:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I've become more conflict oriented.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:05:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. But the thought of somebody saying to me that I was, I was trying to make people happy around me, and I want, I mean, everybody does, wants the people around you to feel good, who like you, care about you, but Hearing that I was doing something that I didn't realize I was doing was the worst thing I could hear and knowing that I had like upset somebody and I didn't realize it and bringing an issue to somebody and feeling like they were going to tell me that I was an idiot or that that didn't really happen, it was so terrifying to me.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:57Rayna Greenberg?

  And now, I don't know, I just, I feel like I've just grown a lot through this podcast, through Ashley, through our guests, all kinds of people, but I'm not scared to hear that I did something because I know I can apologize and hear somebody out. I'm not afraid to say how I feel and I do wrestle with that still my whole life. I don't want to pick every battle, but

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:06:12Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel like I'm the architect of the people in my life and I feel like people in my life are people that I can say this bothered me and they're not going to attack me.

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:06:21Rayna Greenberg?

  And so, you know, both of those things.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  That's incredible. I love that. Yeah.

• 1:06:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  People who are fawners or people pleasers, do you feel as though narcissists and manipulators and gaslighters sense that and seek it out even, but I, I feel like even I know that when people are, are like this, and I'm not trying to take advantage of them, but

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 1:06:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  You can sense it and you know how far you can push it and you know you don't have to validate them like on the, it's a sick thing to talk about, but it's like

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  No, I think it's important.

• 1:06:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  They seem like a match because they've been sought out because that narcissistic, not everybody's narcissist, we know that, it's way overused, but that archetype knows they can manipulate you.

• 1:07:03Rayna Greenberg?

  They can railroad you.

• 1:07:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  That's right. I, I think that that's such a fair point to make and at the same time, I even want to say that I, listen, I wasn't seeking out avoidant narcissists, actively alcoholic people, but because my trauma response developed while literally my body and brain were developing, my only sense of safety was forged in the face of exploitation. So it's important to name and it's part of the reason that I reenacted my trauma so many times. The safest I ever felt was when I was exploited.

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  I didn't know safety outside of that. So that's part of that chemistry that I was talking about. It was like, oh, I, I know how to navigate this kind of a situation, right? But yes, I think it's this common pairing. It's the beauty and the beast scenario. We get small and we couple in all kinds of different ways. Mentors, friendships, you know, romantic relationships with people that like to take up all of the room. Yeah.

• 1:08:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. So another way this manifests, and I want to like talk about it with you is like, so I have a friend. She's so wonderful, but self identifies as a people pleaser. And she'll say something to me all the time, like, oh, they keep bothering me to go to this thing. And I really don't want to go, but then she'll just go. And I'm like, then don't go. And she'll be like, they want advice from me. They want to get me on the phone and talk about this and I don't feel like it. And I'm like, then don't do it.

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Rayna Greenberg?

  But she really has a need to, and it's a beautiful thing about her and I love her, but like to make people feel really comfortable around her. And I think sometimes she finds herself like agreeing to stuff she doesn't want to do.

• 1:08:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Placating people she doesn't want to placate, or even I think she's grown from this, but like having friendships with people that she felt like aren't good for, they're not nice to me. They're not good for me. So like, is that people pleasing? Is it fawning? I guess you'd need more context, but I'm sure that's identifiable to some people.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  I think it's very, a common presentation. And you know, for me, I guess in a way, I think people pleasing is just a flavor of the fawn response. It's one of the symptoms of fawning. I don't really differentiate them, except to say that fawning includes our physiology and the context. Whereas the language of people pleasing, it's sort of felt like this, like, why would you do that? Why don't you just say no? Just don't do the phone call, right? So for me, I can't really think of, maybe you can help me, but think of a people pleasing scenario where I go, yeah, it's not necessarily attached to a fawn response.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  But as you give this example of her, I can't help but think of you saying moments before, I used to feel terror. Like that's the word that you used in terms of conflict. And that is the most real and resonant, I think, word that we can use. So slowing things down for anybody who's in that thing where it's like, ugh, they're asking me again and I don't want to go. Instead of like just, well, then don't go. Why would you go? Getting curious and slowing it down. What, I wonder what you think would happen if you didn't? And would you be willing even just to sit with that feeling for a moment and notice what you notice? There's a reason in every trauma training I've ever done that we talk about what we're experiencing

• 1:10:22Speaker 02

  using, well, experiential language. What are you noticing right now? What are you experiencing? We don't say, what do you think about that? Because everyone goes, yeah, why would you do that? But when you move it into someone's body, what are you, what are you noticing right now? You could even say, I know for me, I used to feel terror. I wonder if you notice any of that? Not that you become their therapist, but I'm just saying it's a way to open up the conversation instead of a doing it right or doing it wrong into creating more space for the person who is automatically self-abandoning.

• 1:10:54Rayna Greenberg?

  It's interesting because as you're saying this, I recall my own example 10 minutes ago of like when people are like, why don't you just set a boundary?

• 1:11:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:01Rayna Greenberg?

  I thought of that. So like when I say to her like, why don't you just not go?

• 1:11:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Like she's probably like, yeah, that's occurred to me. That's not an option for me.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  You have more agency now, but we forget what it was like when we didn't.

• 1:11:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I'd be so curious of what it would feel like because to me it's relief. It's, I don't want to go and I'm not going.

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  But to her, is it they're mad at me? I'm not valuable anymore to them. No one's thinking of me. I mean, some of it's just rooted as something as like FOMO, you know, for, as like a sad word.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:11:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  But just that, like, where literally I'm like, oh, it feels like great.

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 1:11:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  And it's not, that's probably not what she would feel.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  Not what she's experiencing.

• 1:11:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  She would sit home and be anxious about it and not relax. Like the alternative is just to go and be there as opposed to sitting with, what am I missing and are people talking about me? Kind of spiraling when that's not true.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  But I think you named it exactly, which is that anxiety. So a lot of fauners are very anxious, right? But we don't know that we're anxious because we're so focused on what you're feeling and what you're doing and what you need. So when you slow it down and get curious, that's an opportunity to notice the anxiety. Right? I've seen that a million times on my therapy couch. It's sort of like, people have said to me, oh no, I'm not anxious. And then they come to know, I am so anxious. I didn't know that I was anxious all the time.

• 1:12:29Rayna Greenberg?

  She knows she's anxious.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm imagining her listening to this.

• 1:12:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  No question.

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  No question.

• 1:12:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm the most anxious on a scale of one to her. She's the top.

• 1:12:39Rayna Greenberg?

  But she, you know, it manifests in great ways. It makes her like the best friend and she's never met a stranger. Like, everybody loves her. Every man falls in love with her. Everybody wants to be her friend. Yeah, that, that feeling of anxiety and like Ashley said, like, I, I love saying no to stuff. It feels great. One time I saw this meme and it said something like, I tell people I don't want to do stuff. Not, I don't make any, I'm lying anymore. It just says like, I just don't.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  I don't want to do it.

• 1:13:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I was like, oh, I could do that. That's crazy. Ashley always volunteers my house for people to stay at. People always want to stay with me. I have extra bedrooms.

• 1:13:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I stopped doing it. Since you bought your new fancy house, I don't do it anymore.

• 1:13:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, well, we had conflict, but no, we didn't. But I feel comfortable telling people, I, the girlfriend asked me if she could stay with me for like a week and a half. I said, you could stay with me for a couple of days. I don't want that. Like, I don't feel obligated to say yes to that.

• 1:13:24Speaker 02

  That's so amazing.

• 1:13:25Rayna Greenberg?

  But it's a lifetime of work. I'm 40. You know, I didn't wake up, I didn't wake up and decide to do this one day, you know?

• 1:13:31Speaker 02

  But I think the other piece that maybe is important for people to hear is that often we don't start to pivot in the relationship itself by like saying no to the thing that's terrifying to say no to. You do it in the privacy even of your own home of going, what am I afraid would happen if I did say no? And you feel the anxiety and you feel the terror. And half of our work, more than half of the work, is learning to stay present to this level of discomfort. Learning to be in this different relationship with self. It's almost like, oh, I've got you. I know it's terrifying. I have got you, right? There's this magical thing that happens. I've seen it with probably every client I've worked with, where we suddenly realize, I'm the one I've been waiting for, right?

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  I'm the one, not you, to make it safe for me. Not the perfect relationship to make it safe. I have to make it safe for me. And that means staying present with the anxiety or the discomfort, whatever it is, and learning to tolerate more and more of it so that you can say, I don't want to, I just don't want to go. I don't want you to stay without feeling that. Overwhelm.

• 1:14:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's interesting, the emotions that feel comfortable and safe and the ones that they don't feel. Like, we were talking about a girlfriend who has been in this long-term, really volatile relationship and it's, it's so unstable and it would give me so much anxiety, I wouldn't be able to ever relax or sleep at night and I would never do it. But I think she'd rather keep that going than sit with herself and feel any sort of loneliness or sadness. She'd rather feel the like elevated craziness.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:15:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  And it's so unrelatable to me.

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:15:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'd rather be sad, be lonely, work through it and move out of that chaos.

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  And it's just interesting, the, how the way people feel where they're comfortable and not.

• 1:15:29Speaker 02

  But I would say, I don't know that it's a rather this or that, I mean, I'm imagining anyway. It's not like they have a map of your experience in their body where they're like.

• 1:15:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  Right. And so that paradigm does not even exist.

• 1:15:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  That's what unfawning essentially is, is we're building that capacity that you have, it sounds like inherently to go, that would be so unsettling to me, right? That would not feel safe.

• 1:15:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I've been in a relationship like that and it wa, and it was awful. It's not like, I would never, I was, I was in one and I would never want to go back.

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  Generally speaking, I just think it's useful to name that this is what we're starting to build and that you've had an opportunity to build and you've had, and you know, me too. But it's literally this bottom-up foundational experience that we're trying to cultivate within ourselves. It's major. It's like major reconstruction.

• 1:16:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I feel like we are in this topic of breaking this cycle.

• 1:16:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can we dive in deeper into how can we unfawn?

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I think in a way, it's tricky that I'm using that language of fawning and unfawning, because it sounds like I'm perpetuating this binary idea that like you're doing it right or wrong, or you're healed or unhealed, right? And actually, unfawning to me is a radical paradigm shift of saying, "I'm always gonna have a body. I'm always gonna have a body that's living in context, right? With different relationships and different things going on. So I'm always gonna have trauma responses. I'm grateful for them. I'm grateful, in the beginning of that book, when I'm sitting in that hot tub, that I had a fawn response to come and save the day, right? So, we're not getting rid of these things. They are life-saving.

• 1:17:18Speaker 02

  What we're doing is saying, "We don't need to live there 24/7 in survival mode." Survival mode means we are not connected to our fullest sense of self. And, I don't know what people's context of their actual lives are. It might not actually be safe to be like, "Well, let me tell you how I really feel about that," you know? So, what I'm inviting is sort of just an expansion of your current level of capacity to feel all the tough stuff, so that we can have more conscious choice and agency than we've ever had before. And, one of the ways that we do that, we've talked about it a little bit, is the slowing down and getting curious, right?

• 1:18:03Speaker 02

  What would I feel if I felt like I was allowed to even feel it? Like, we have to give ourselves so much permission, because it's reflexive. It's like, "What do you mean? This is how I feel." Okay, well, what if there was another part of you that felt differently? Or, is there another part of you that feels differently? So, it's creating more space, internal and external. Sometimes that space might be like, "Well, have you ever gone on a hike by yourself? And let your mind wander and notice what you're actually thinking or feeling?" Like, a lot of people, the answer is "no." I don't feel safe to be by myself out in the world, right? So, we're creating...

• 1:18:50Speaker 02

  More of a sense of safety and autonomy. It's a big piece of it. And then the other thing, you know, there's a reason that I start the book with my story and that I end the book basically saying, and I also don't have all the answers, is that I'm wanting to adjust this paradigm of like, I'm the expert and you come to me and you talk to me for 50 minutes a week and I'm gonna sort of magically unpack all of this for you. It's like, no, no, no, I'm a person. Even the therapy relationship becomes much more reciprocal and collaborative and more like peer to peer. Because I'm wanting people to step into their own sense of agency and autonomy so that they can say to me, oh, Ingrid, I hated what you just said. Or you said that thing last week and it drove me nuts, right?

• 1:19:34Speaker 02

  So I'm trying to also impart that in the book, that these are ways in which we don't have to live terrified all the time.

• 1:19:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm-hmm. I think that, yes, you want to give solutions to people about how to change, but I think even naming the behavior can be really profound for a lot of people.

• 1:19:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:19:50Rayna Greenberg?

  And you talking about people that want to like win therapy and they don't even realize that. And I think that can be like a real watershed moment for people when they say like, everything's, everything's great and I'm a peer and you, you name it.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  But even winning your relationship or winning at work, I think you definitely see this in romantic relationships, someone who doesn't want to rock the boat and is in that people pleaser and is just trying to be the perfect partner and not really ever expressing how they truly feel or being vulnerable.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:20:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  And it's a sad relationship to be in. And your book is obviously gonna probably open a lot of people's eyes and give them hope also, and I like that you're not saying like, you're a fawn and we need to cure you.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's a, a slow process and it's just incremental changes and it will just gradually improve your life. There's nothing wrong with you. Obviously, I think we've made that clear.

• 1:20:37Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. I think that was tricky, writing a self-help book when they're like, Ingrid, make it more prescriptive and give us 10 tips. And I'm like, this doesn't really work that way. In fact, now I'm gaslighting the reader.

• 1:20:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Yep, right.

• 1:20:48Speaker 02

  Because I'm saying, I'm not gonna say something if I think that it's a lie. I lived in that for so long. Oh, you have all the answers and you did those 10 things and now you feel fixed. And so what's wrong with me? So I'm I'm not going to buy into that paradigm. And it's also why I teach through personal story and lived experience. Because it expands the lens much bigger. I mean, it's not as easy to talk about as the 10 pithy things that people want to hear. It's not a great sales pitch, right?

• 1:21:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, it's, we're human, there's nuance. We don't roll like that. We'd probably be a lot more popular if we did.

• 1:21:21Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, every video on TikTok, five ways to stop being gaslit.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:21:27Rayna Greenberg?

  You know, that stuff does really well. That's the type of content that's really easy to digest and it's for stupid people. No, I'm kidding. No, that stuff's good too. Don't clip me saying that.

• 1:21:36Speaker 02

  There's a place for it, but it's not a panacea. And I think we pretend that it is, yeah.

• 1:21:42Rayna Greenberg?

  I know. So I think even like, understanding that you do this is a real watershed moment. And like, somebody, for example, that says yes to everything and doesn't want to. If you could just give them the exercise of like, just one time, say no.

• 1:21:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, just start imagining saying no.

• 1:21:58Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:21:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's the whole, that's the first step is how would it feel to say no?

• 1:22:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, back up. Feel, feel it and then like, I guess you have to identify like, what's the worst thing that could happen?

• 1:22:09Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:22:09Rayna Greenberg?

  If you say no, is everybody gonna hate you? Are there examples of people in your life that do say no to stuff? Does everybody hate them? No? I say no to everything and everybody loves me.

• 1:22:17Speaker 02

  This is a common thing, so I can give you a quick little like snippet of what might happen, right? So rather, to your point, yes, I wouldn't say, well, just say no to somebody. I would say, what does it feel in this moment? Even the idea of you saying no. And a couple of things might happen. One is a sensation and I go, great, can we be present with what's happening in your body? Whatever it is, and we can move it somatically. Or from a parts work perspective, someone goes, oh my gosh, I can see my five-year-old self trying to say no. And I got steamrolled or something happened and a memory comes. And then we can, in that moment, can you be with that five-year-old part of you right now?

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  And we're literally healing that terror and that panic that we're still holding. It's so visceral. It comes back immediately. And it's not like people are saying, oh, yeah, I always connect with the five-year-old self in that one moment. These are moments, sometimes, that shock and surprise people, the clarity with which the moments can come back, where they've been triggered and they've remained triggered for decades, sometimes. So, this is the work. It's not about going out in the world and doing it differently and then beating yourself up when you didn't, because, come on, it's so simple. It's like, can I go internal? Can I go inward? Can I be present to all of me? And then, what magically happens is, there's more of us to be present in all

• 1:23:42Speaker 02

  of our relationships, right? But that's the order that it has to happen in. Otherwise, it's re-traumatizing.

• 1:23:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. Sorry, so don't do what I said.

• 1:23:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is like what you said, what bring up something you do or don't like in the bedroom during sex.

• 1:24:00Speaker 02

  That was during the COVID quarantine, and it was a weird time.

• 1:24:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  And most of the talks were, Emily, like, I would not, I actually, that's the opposite of what I would.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  It was during the quarantine, yeah. And, yeah, Emily Morse was like, oh, don't do that.

• 1:24:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  We learn stuff every day with different people than we were last week. Well, thank you so much for this. This was a wonderful discussion.

• 1:24:22Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:24:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  And the book is out now.

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  Yay.

• 1:24:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, and then tell everyone else where they can find you, follow you.

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm on all of the places and spaces. I think it's all at Ingrid Clayton PhD, but that's all on my website, which is just IngridClayton.com, so.

• 1:24:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Your website is great, and your book is really important for anybody who has felt this way.

• 1:24:40Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 1:24:41Rayna Greenberg?

  I really encourage people to buy it.

• 1:24:43Speaker 02

  Thank you, Vanna.

• 1:24:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you guys know where to find us, girlsgottaeat.com, girlsgottae podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess, Raina is Raina dot Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with a friend, and we will see you next time.

• 1:24:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a good week, guys.

• 1:24:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Bye.