Dame Goes Down, Jokic-Curry Beauties, Ant’s L.A. Takedown, and Shedeur Theories With Ryen Russillo and Van Lathan Jr.

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to react to all the NBA playoff games over the weekend (3:02). Then, Van Lathan Jr. joins to talk Game 4 of the Lakers-Timberwolves series, and Shedeur Sanders finally getting drafted in the fifth round by the Browns (01:17:32). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Van Lathan Jr. and Ryen Russillo Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Steve Ceruti #ULTRACourtside could get you closer to the game! michelobultra.com/courtside ENJOY RESPONSIBLY ©️ 2025 ANHEUSER-BUSCH, MICHELOB ULTRA®️ LIGHT BEER, ST. LOUIS, MO. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  You're listening to the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by Fanduel. Fanduel has made it easier than ever to see how your bets are doing without even opening the app. Now you can get the latest updates, follow along in real time directly from your phone's lock screen. Yeah. Or Apple Watch, no login required. Just head to your My Bets page to turn it on. If you don't already have it, download the Fanduel Sportsbook app today to get in on the action. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.

• 0:43Bill Simmons?

  Coming up, a wild, raucous weekend of NBA action. It's all next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from September 14th to September 27th and from November 2nd to November 16th.

• 1:26Bill Simmons?

  Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I have a new rewatch that was going up on Monday night. It is a one for us. It's just me and Chris Ryan. We went old school. We just picked a movie we really liked that's on Tubi a lot. It's called Someone to Watch Over Me. It stars Tom Berenger, Mimi Rogers. It came out 35 years ago, maybe even longer than that, and directed by Ridley Scott, and we love it. So we just decided to dive in. I'm going to make it up to you the week after because we're doing a huge movie the week after. So there you go.

• 2:11Bill Simmons?

  Last episode of Celtic City is going to be on HBO 9 PM.

• 2:17Bill Simmons?

  ET.

• 2:19Bill Simmons?

  That's it. Nine episodes and we're done. This was an episode that we worked on not knowing how last season was going to play out. And then of course, last season played out the title. So we had to mix some stuff around, but I'm really proud of this series. You can watch all the other episodes on Max and then this will be the last one and then binge it. If you haven't watched it yet, maybe wait till the NBA playoffs, calm down a little bit and dive in, but we're really proud of it. If you're an NBA fan, I don't understand why you wouldn't enjoy watching this. So there you go. Coming up on this podcast. So this is a weird one because Ryan Russillo and I went live right after the Indiana Milwaukee game, which featured a fortunate, a pretty dramatic moment, not great for Dame Lillard.

• 3:02Bill Simmons?

  But so we talked about the whole weekend and then me, Russillo and Van Lathan, we taped right after the Lakers Minnesota game and talked about the NFL draft as well. So that's the second hour of the podcast. That's already up on YouTube. So if you're watching this live, watch us live and then you can go watch that video as well. So pretty action packed Sunday here on the BS pod. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 3:53Bill Simmons?

  All right. We are here. It's nine o'clock. Russillo is here. We already taped an hour earlier this afternoon. You can go watch it on my YouTube channel. Me, Van, Russillo, we covered the Lakers and that's coming up later in this podcast too. Russillo, I was all excited to talk about what a great basketball weekend this was.

• 4:15Bill Simmons?

  And then a damper in that Milwaukee, Indiana game. It looked like Dame, I assume he tore his Achilles. We've seen enough of these now to think that that's probably what it looked like. It wasn't great and it really feels like we are now at the finish line of this Milwaukee era. So we'll start with the Dame piece because it's just been star crossed really since the moment he showed up in Milwaukee. He's in his mid 30s. He's a small guard, tough to come back anyway. Feel bad for him. This never worked out. And then big picture, there's a lot of Yanis stuff to talk about. So you tell me, where do you want to start?

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, look, I, I think if Dame were healthy going into next year, you could do what a lot of teams do and kind of talk yourself into like, well, if this works and you know, tweak here, and this guy's more comfortable, we have a full training camp and all these different things. It's the first thing I thought of was, okay, now I think it'll change the conversation considering what we're talking about, how much he is owed. And if, I mean, I know Bucks fans can't stand this stuff, but I, I think this ramps up the speculation and probably the most speculated topic in the NBA in the last two years. I would say there's more gossip about Yanis ever getting to that point, if you would ever want to.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Because look, even with Dame, this team isn't close. Like this series is, this series is alarming, I think for Milwaukee, because I think a lot of Bucks people were, hey, you know, it's not like we're going up against the one seed here. Like, let's see what happens. Have the best player in the entire series. And this thing really isn't close, other than Gary Trent going crazy in game three.

• 5:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I felt, I mean, this was my favorite bet of the entire first round was Indiana to win game one and Indiana win the series. I think Indiana is underrated. I thought Milwaukee was overrated. I think Milwaukee loses this series regardless of what happens with Dame, which was why it was such a bummer. Because when it happens in the series, when Milwaukee still seemed like they had a puncher's chance to hang around. They're favored tonight, right? They're down 2-1 in the series. They're favored minus four tonight. You never know, he could get hot. They have Yanis, who's the best guy in the series. But I just continue to think Indiana is really good. I, I can't think Cleveland is like fired up to see them in round two. And if you're telling me, could I have Indiana in round two, or could I have New York in round two as an opponent?

• 6:30Bill Simmons?

  I'm taking the Knicks 100 times out of 100 in that, aren't you? Wouldn't you rather play the Knicks than Indiana?

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I still think the Brunson, especially with today, the reminder of like, I think that high level stuff as far as the scoring, it's still better than anything the Pacers can offer. But last year, the Pacers got to the Eastern Conference Finals because of their offense and because of the teams were injured. So that's part of it. And despite them being competitive in the Eastern Conference Finals against Boston last year in some of those games, those are really good games. And I think all of this stuff, the truth is told in those last two, three minutes of these tight playoff games. Like, we see it time and time again where you go, okay, well, this is really where we separate the men from the boys. But their defense was a mess. And so I think going into the series, one of the things that was undersold was, you know, after the All-Star break, there's a Pacers team that went 20 and 9. They were

• 7:21Speaker 01

  eighth in the NBA on defense.

• 7:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  You know, Milwaukee, who couldn't quite figure it out the entire time, had a nice record after the All-Star break, but they were 16th on defense. And, you know, I look at tonight's game, and at one point, Milwaukee's shooting 43% from the floor. They're 13 of 30 on threes, 43%. They're plus two in free throw makes. Rebounds about even. They were four less than the Pacers team. They only had seven turnovers, and they were down 22 points.

• 7:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  So you run through that and you go, oh, they're probably in it, or they're at least winning. And they were down 22. So I think this Pacers team, I'm with you. This team, I'm not going to pick them against Cleveland, but they changed. It felt like they changed. They morphed into something far more serious. And they play like 11 guys, which I'm really curious to see what Carlisle is going to do. Did he, do you think he thought so little of the Bucks that he was like, I don't care if I play 10 guys in the first quarter of a playoff game? Because he's done that.

• 8:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think they're super confident in this series. I just, like, the Bucks just aren't good enough defensively. By the time we started taping this, the Pacers had like 34 assists in this game. When you're in the high 20s and up in assists, that tells me two things. One is your team likes to move the ball. And two, you're probably playing a team that can't, you know, kind of recover and rotate in time. So it's just, it confirmed everything I thought had been in this series. I just didn't think the Bucks were. Just good enough as a team defense. I think it's a weird team. Like they really need these weird Porter. These six-minute stretches where Porter just gives up minutes in offense. Cause other than that, what else do they have other than the honest piece and now Dame gone?

• 9:02Bill Simmons?

  That's it. So, you know, I think big picture, if I'm Indiana, this couldn't have turned out better. We might be able to get rid of these guys in five, right? Cleveland's gonna get rid of Miami in four. They'll just, that, that series will start a little early, but not too early. They'll have five days to really circle each other and look at each other. And I, I think. I don't know, man. I would probably pick Cleveland at seven at gunpoint, but I really want to look at this because I think Indiana has a real chance in this series. I really do. I think they can hang with them. I think it's a nice matchup. I think they, their guards against Cleveland's guards, I think they can throw some punches and make them work on defense. I think they have.

• 9:42Bill Simmons?

  Three-point shooting and they have a bench to throw at them that can match Cleveland's bench, which I think was a huge advantage for Cleveland this year. Now Cleveland brings in their bench, but Indiana's bringing in good guys too. I think Neesmith. Putting him on Mitchell and having him chase him around, that's not nothing. And I think they can at least make Cleveland sweat. I think Cleveland's really good. We've been talking about them all year, but I also think Indiana is really good. I think they have an identity. I think they know who they are. So, do I think Cleveland's gonna win? Yeah, probably. But do I think they're psyched to see Indiana? I don't.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is the part where I probably push back a little bit. I think Cleveland's really good. So. You know, unless the Pacers have turned into that, I'm not saying they can't get a couple of games here, but there's a difference between. Like, do you feel like Cleveland is going to be threatened in those closing moments of multiple games? And I guess you could make the argument and say, well, last year against Boston, I don't know. There's just certain games where I watch and maybe it's the preconceived bias of going into a series, but. There's games that I'll watch where I just go, I don't, like at zero, I know the score is four points, but there's zero fear that this other team is gonna win four, six points or whatever. So I'm sure the Pacers.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Are gonna have a night where they shoot it really well, but you know, they had to, they didn't, it didn't matter. Giannis could have gotten 50 a game. I mean, the numbers we had seen from the individual matchups, whether it was. Siakam and Giannis, they were pretty bad. Turner, they were even worse. And it really doesn't matter because to your point, I mean, Trent has to go crazy in game three. The Kevin Porter Jr. Minutes are like, he's talented, but.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  I don't know that I would call him good. You know, before tonight's game where he went off, you know, he had a huge second quarter. He went off in garbage time, too. But 23 minutes a game, he was 29% from the floor, 17% from three. Kuzma's plus minus was terrible. I mean, the Bucks were so bad around Giannis that Giannis net rating going into tonight's game in these three games was plus 0.9. He wasn't a full point positive. That's how bad everybody else was around him. So, you know, you could say the same as Miami is zero threat and you never really feel all that threatened. I just, I'm going to be surprised if it goes seven. I would be against Cleveland and that's more of about what I think Cleveland is capable of building towards this moment.

• 11:59Bill Simmons?

  If you're looking last 25 regular season, Cleveland was seventh net rating and Indiana was ninth. The Indiana stats basically for the last two thirds of the season, they were a top eight team pretty consistently. And that, that was why I, I just couldn't believe the Indiana, Indianapolis, Milwaukee stuff. I thought they were clearly a better team. And even if you spotted, like you said, if you spotted Giannis 38 and 17 every game, I still think Indiana wins the series. Let's, uh, let's go big picture. Oh, go ahead.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  I just think there's at least like Jokic is the factor of game four. Like that's, that's the part of the Milwaukee conversation leading into it's like, what if that guy goes nuts?

• 12:43Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  I think that's what happened in game four for Denver. Cause there was a lot from the guys around him that I didn't like, but.

• 12:49Bill Simmons?

  I can't wait to talk about that game.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Was just spectacular again, but there's just, there's just not enough. And the fall off is so, I mean, even Bobby Portis, you're like, hey, he could have a game. Yeah. Maybe went for 28 one game and he goes for four in the next and that's Bobby Portis.

• 13:02Bill Simmons?

  Right. So Milwaukee wins the 21 title. They lose to Boston in seven the next year, round two. They lose to Miami in round one, one of your favorite round one series ever, the Jimmy Butler series.

• 13:17Bill Simmons?

  They lose to Indiana last year in round one, have some injuries. They lose to round in round one this year. They've had three coaches. They have that Dame trade that turns out part disaster to begin with, and then he gets hurt and makes it kind of a full disaster. If you're looking back at the last two years, the assets they gave up. They they're in real trouble with draft picks, which I think they even could have started talking about on the broadcast. They don't have their pick this year.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  You want that?

• 13:45Bill Simmons?

  No, I mean, I it's it's so much bleaker than just, oh, man, our second best guy is probably out next season and we don't have a bunch of assets coming in. They have a swap with New Orleans in 26. That's New Orleans call, right? So start there. Their 27 pick.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Right? Yeah.

• 14:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, their 27 pick goes to New Orleans. Their 28 and 30 picks are swaps with Portland. That's Portland's call. And I think one of them then becomes the 28 pick then becomes the second swap with Washington. So they get the third worst pick that year. And then their 29 first goes to Portland. So they don't have their pick the next five years. So when you think about like, oh, they could trade Yanis, blow it up and rebuild. They can't rebuild because they have their picks. This is an even worse situation than Brooklyn. So whatever they do, they almost have to like stay competitive in whatever trade they get back. And I was looking at the teams that were the possibilities. I hate doing this, but why not? And it's Houston, I think, has to be a

• 14:47Bill Simmons?

  consideration because Houston could make a four for one with picks, get Yanis, keep a couple guys and be really good. Brooklyn has been the rumored one, but I don't know if Brooklyn can give them enough picks back that they could still stay competitive. OKC has to be mentioned. There's a Knicks trade with Towns and picking Ananobi or Bridges for Yanis, like something like that. That I don't think is realistic. And then Sarudy's Orlando Magic. I think those would be the five teams, right? And they're not giving up Palo for Yanis, I don't think. But could you do Franz and some others, Black and a bunch of picks? And, you know, maybe, I

• 15:30Bill Simmons?

  don't know. But if you hear all those teams that I just listed off, what was the one that jumped out to you?

• 15:37Speaker 01

  If Houston gets bounced in the first round, you know, I pushed back on you when you started bringing up the Durant stuff after game one, just because it's just you and I doing our back and forth. But I don't know that you were wrong. You know, there was another piece I read this morning that was basically hit on the exact same thing. Like they had to get game three without Jimmy Butler and the offense continues to be terrible. Even with Jalen Green's huge night in, in game two, the problem is, is he's your number one option offensively and you don't quite know. Like your number one off option, like even if it's not super efficient, you're still supposed to get like 25 because you're, you're just going to get so many opportunities. Your usage rate is going to be so high. Even it felt like Van Vliet. So look, they've done a really good job.

• 16:17Bill Simmons?

  Shangoon was a little Tobias Harris in that game three. It was like, hey, it's Shangoon. I didn't realize you were still here. I thought you left.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Cause I do think he's done a good job and like seeing how he's being played where he's reminding him he can stretch. Like I wouldn't say stretch the floor, but stretch the paint maybe is the nice way of putting it where it's like, you have the touch to be able to kind of pull up. If Draymond's going to play you in the restricted area, I think there've been times I've actually been impressed. Looking at, at Shangoon, kind of reading how they defend him. Anyway, I know that's really that important, but. As good of a job as they've done, as much as we all like the roster, we talk about it all year long and how exciting it is. They have too many guys, like Reed Shepard not playing at all for a team that needs offense. Speaks to like, do you really know what you have with Jabari? What's the contract situation there? The Jalen Green thing they had to get creative with.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Shangoon is probably a guy, just based on the size part of it. Tari, is he better than Jabari? Would you rather have him? Would you rather have a man than any of these guys? I mean, Cam Whitmore doesn't even play like there's.

• 17:21Bill Simmons?

  So who would you keep? Who, if you're trying to get Yanis and you're obviously keeping Thompson. I think that's the one guy where like, we're never trading him. Sorry. Can we get Yanis? Can we get Thompson?

• 17:34Bill Simmons?

  Pretty much everybody else is a conversation, I think.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  So why don't you rank, would you rather get rid of, I understand you're saying no to Amen, even though I think the limitations in his offensive game, well, we argued about this months ago. I'm not taking a victory lap. No, I'm not talking about trading him.

• 17:52Bill Simmons?

  If he's not, if, if it's like, he has to be in the trade or we're not trading Giannis, that's a different conversation, but I'm trying to do this while keeping Thompson.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Thompson's one. I think I'd still rather hold out hope for Jabari because of his shooting.

• 18:09Bill Simmons?

  I still like Jabari.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:12Bill Simmons?

  I feel like there's so much more there, the way he uses it, the way he's being used on that team versus what I think might be lurking in there. They're basically like, go stand in the corner, right? Place some defense, go stand in the corner, and that's all we were really looking for from you. I, I actually think in this Golden State series, I wouldn't mind if they ran some stuff through him. Anyway.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  So.

• 18:34Bill Simmons?

  So you have Tari ahead of, do you have Tari ahead of Jalen Green?

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:39Bill Simmons?

  I do too. I don't think that's a crazy opinion.

• 18:43Bill Simmons?

  I would go further. I think Tari should play 40 minutes a game. I wouldn't take him out.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  I'd like to see him unleashed for, yeah, 38.

• 18:51Bill Simmons?

  Just fucking let him go.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  So, and you know, who knows? Tari's like one of those classic players a couple of years from now, you're like, remember how much we liked him? Like that was.

• 18:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, maybe he's like a guy who looks awesome in 20 minutes, but if it's 40, maybe not as good.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  How dumb do you want to get? Would you rather keep Reed Shepard or Jalen Green?

• 19:09Bill Simmons?

  Oh, man, has Reed done anything? Has there been one moment this year where you're like, there it is?

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Phoenix, was it the Phoenix game?

• 19:17Bill Simmons?

  I, you know, I, I just feel like Jalen has more, uh, more value than maybe, um, maybe his worth if you're trying to win a title. I would, I would say the seesaw, you could probably get more for him than you're going to get from him keeping him.

• 19:35Bill Simmons?

  But who knows?

• 19:36Speaker 01

  OKC game, he went off.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  25, he was 10 of 17.

• 19:43Bill Simmons?

  Is there an Orlando, is there a Franz, Anthony Black and just a million picks scenario?

• 19:51Speaker 01

  They're like, hey, we don't want to be able to shoot, but we want to do it differently.

• 19:56Bill Simmons?

  We want a different way for you to pack it in.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Palo, just an official statement from me, I will not hear any Palo negativity from anyone. Just, I know I don't have to say it to you, but like if you want, you want to talk about some of these.

• 20:15Bill Simmons?

  My favorite team's been going against him for four games. That dude has answered the call. He is a full-fledged playoff guy and really gives a shit and has been playing his absolute ass off and I'm terrified of him.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  If Tatum were 31, would you trade him for Palo?

• 20:33Bill Simmons?

  How old would Tatum have to be? 34?

• 20:36Speaker 01

  That's pretty good.

• 20:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that is a good one. Tatum, four years from now for Palo. I definitely have to have a meeting.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Hey, we're not going to be off on this. I know I said you guys could go home on Friday.

• 20:49Bill Simmons?

  Guys, I would need to stick around. We have a time machine trade to discuss.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Let's keep doing this because I don't even know that, I'm just looking at the, the contract stuff here for Lillard. Like I do think that this is, you know, granted they're down 3-1, whatever, but I mean.

• 21:04Bill Simmons?

  Well, this is, we're going to find out tomorrow that he's probably out for the year barring a miracle. I think it would have to be a miracle for, to be the injury we think it is.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  He's owed about 113 million the next two years.

• 21:17Bill Simmons?

  Next year, year after, 54 and 58, something like that.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So at 35 and 36. So I think the feeling around the Giannis conversation has always been a little Garnett-ish where you had heard for years KG's like, maybe, maybe, maybe. And then I remember even talking to Chauncey Phillips about it, which he shared the story. So I don't know if it was him off the air, on the air, or whatever, just him saying, like dudes were telling Garnett, like you need to get out of there and go somewhere else because Glenn Taylor, the whole deal, like it's not going to work for you. You tried. You've been loyal the entire time, but like it's time to bounce.

• 21:54Bill Simmons?

  But he won. Unlike Garnett, he has the title. He won a title in Milwaukee, which is a different level of freedom.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  But I, I still think it's, it's kind of nice, right? It's kind of nice that Garnett and maybe Giannis, if he shares those sensibilities to think, I don't really want to be the guy that does any of these things. But I, I couldn't help but think it when Dane went down because it's like, all right, so now you have 54 million in the guy that's supposed to be the answer to raising the ceiling, who if this injury is as significant as we think it might be. I wonder if that changes the summer and if it does, then does it turn to a bidding war? Does Giannis get involved and say, hey, I'm only going here. So then the price changes.

• 22:33Bill Simmons?

  What happens if San Antonio gets involved?

• 22:37Bill Simmons?

  What if they go fuck it?

• 22:40Bill Simmons?

  And say, dude, let's, what, what would it look like if Wemby and Giannis were on the same team?

• 22:45Speaker 01

  But I wonder because of the pick stuff that you just ran through, which is serious. If they go, well, we'd rather run this with, with Jalen Green and Jabari and a couple picks.

• 22:55Bill Simmons?

  We'll do four for one and be decent.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Cause we just saw Atlanta in that situation where they didn't have their pick. So they actually had to keep playing hard and ended up, you know, making the play in where I think if they had their pick, they probably, once Jalen Johnson got out, they would have been done. Can I give you one more scenario? And I spent a solid 11 minutes deep diving this on Google.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 23:20Bill Simmons?

  So Brooklyn has two versions of cap space. They have the cap space for a max guy. But they can also renounce some restricted free agents and really blow out their cap space. And if you look at what they have, they basically have $54 million worth of guys that are actually hardcore on the books, plus a bunch of restricted guys. And I was thinking, is there a scenario where Milwaukee says to Brooklyn, we'll trade you Giannis, but you have to also take Dame's contract in the deal and he'll be ready in a year. And that's part of the trade. You have to take them both and we'll just figure this out with the machinations of it. And Milwaukee's basically they just, they clean their cap.

• 24:05Bill Simmons?

  Cause Milwaukee right now has Kuzma at 22 and 20. Congratulations, by the way, on that. Two more years of him. Portis for 13 next year. Connaughton for 10. Porter and A.J. Green are five combined and that's it. So if for some way they could put Giannis and Dame in the same trade to Brooklyn, that's the only team that would work. And take some contracts back, but not a ton. And basically just have a full reboot. And I don't even know how realistic that is, but I had to mention it because I spent some time Googling it. It's a little unorthodox.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the cap would be like 156 next year.

• 24:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. It's in the mid 150s.

• 24:42Bill Simmons?

  So it's kind of doable. They'd have to put like a couple of contracts back, but it is like doable. They'd have to renounce everybody. They'd have to do what we've seen teams do in the past where they just, they cut their books, except for the guys on contracts. So I, to me, Houston makes the most sense. Maybe he's a deal breaker. To me, Houston makes the most sense. Because they have too many guys, as you mentioned. They also have a shitload of picks. And including a couple of really nice Phoenix picks.

• 25:16Bill Simmons?

  So would you say the Milwaukee situation is now bleaker than Phoenix?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  No, because they still have the best player by, you know, despite how much I seem to like Booker more than anybody else, you're still talking about Giannis probably being the second best player in the world.

• 25:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. If you were a GM, I'd be like, we should call Russillo. He loves, he loves Booker. I bet he'd overpay for him. He's a huge Booker guy. He's having drinks with Russillo at the hotel bar. He just fucking loves Booker. I bet we can get in that one more swap in the deal. He'll just, he'll just, he won't be able to handle it. He's just going right in out of.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  I don't understand the Giannis Brooklyn thing, even though I've heard it is why would he go there by himself?

• 26:07Bill Simmons?

  It's basically, so the analogy would be 50 years ago, literally 50 years ago, Kareem going LA for a bunch of stuff and like play here a year and then we'll figure out who's on your team. I think would be the idea, but then you lose another Giannis year.

• 26:25Bill Simmons?

  And he's had six, seven straight years of 30, 12 and six. So.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Kareem was what 27, 28 when he went.

• 26:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, he was, he was going to be a free agent and after the 76 season, they traded him a year early in 75. So he'd been in college four years. He'd been on the Bucks for like six. So he's probably right around the same Giannis age.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  So Yanis has got a couple of years on him. It'll be 31 in December, though. So it's not, it's not like some massive tap. I don't know. It sucks. I mean, as if Milwaukee fans weren't bummed out enough, they could spend the first 20 minutes on this kind of deal.

• 26:59Bill Simmons?

  Hey, listen, they won a title. Could be worse. Got a title out of Yanis. You had a great player who you drafted. Was he outside the lottery or right at the tail end of the lottery? I can't remember. Yeah, 15. You hit the jackpot with this amazing pick. You had a lot of good games and now unfortunately, this is how the NBA works. I, I was thinking-

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Well, look, I'm, I'm game for like, talk, talk me into why it's gonna get better. I, I, as soon as Dane went down, it's the first thing I thought of was, okay, this may, may change this summer. I mean, I don't know, but you have to ask.

• 27:37Bill Simmons?

  Um, we're gonna take a break for the podcast, keep going on YouTube and talk about our two favorite guys. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Spring is here. My favorite time of the year. That means the NBA playoffs are here too. What am I the most excited about? I'm excited to see if the Celtics can defend their title. I'm excited to see if Steph Curry and Jokic can keep going and going and going round after round. I'm excited for the potential of an LA versus LA playoff series. It's never happened. Clippers Lakers. Never in my lifetime. Is OKC for real? Is Cleveland for real? Is SGA gonna prove that he is the best scoring guard in the postseason basically since Michael Jordan? Since Kobe Bryant? Is he on that level?

• 28:21Bill Simmons?

  We're all gonna find out. There's plenty to look forward to on and off the court. Like Michelob Ultra Courtside, that's another thing. It's getting fans closer to the game with unique prizes. Plus they're giving you a chance to win tickets to the NBA Finals. You heard me. The NBA Finals, which I hope are in Boston. Just head to michelobultra.com slash NBA Finals. Michelob Ultra Courtside NBA Finals Sweepstakes, no purchase necessary, open to US residents excluding Maryland residents. 21 and up begins 9am ET on February 16th, 2025, ends on May 5th, 2025. See official rules at michelobultra.com slash rules for price and details. Message and

• 29:00Bill Simmons?

  data rate may apply. Void where prohibited. All right, Russillo. You want to go Curry or you want to go Jokic? Where do you want to go? I'll let you choose your own adventure for this part of the podcast.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  I was thinking about it the other day. Who are your five favorite athletes in your lifetime?

• 29:20Bill Simmons?

  Non-Boston?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  No, just give me, give me. I don't know if I'll get to five, but like, give me the five in order, right? Bird's one.

• 29:31Bill Simmons?

  Bird.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Esposito two.

• 29:33Bill Simmons?

  I've had so many. I mean, we've had some good ones in Boston. Ortiz has to be in there. Bobby Orr has to be in there, even though I barely remember his prime. Brady. I really love Gronk. Gronk was like everything I wanted from just somebody passing through my life for 10 years and as a football player. He was great. But non-Boston, Curry and Jokic are way up there for me with Jordan and Bernard King. I loved.

• 30:03Bill Simmons?

  I really loved Walter Payton for some reason. As a kid.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  I think that's normal as a kid because I think.

• 30:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, it sounded like he was on TV all the time, but I just loved him. I loved his football cards. I loved the clips. I was just always like wanting him to win and of course he beat the Pats.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  And he was awesome. He had a cool nickname.

• 30:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  All mine's Barkley. There never be anybody.

• 30:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, your Barkley's one.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  There'll never be anybody that touches Barkley. Chris Mullin's number two. Because of the St. John's stuff. And again, this is being young and being impressionable. I would say that 86 Sox season, especially being like a little league pitcher and seeing Clemens, especially that first half. And being that into it, being a total new, just a nerd of a kid, like keeping score of games and stuff and just riding.

• 30:47Bill Simmons?

  I've renounced Clemens. Yeah.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's fine, but Clemens, Clemens is probably the last childhood thing, unless I wanted to go Walter Berry, but that's probably.

• 30:57Bill Simmons?

  So mine was Fred Lynn for a child. Fred Lynn was my favorite Red Sox player growing up.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Okay, he was. Yeah. Cause for the Red Sox, like I did love Mo Vaughn, but at that point I was starting to like phase out of it, start talking to girls. You know, like, all right, maybe I'm not going to worship another dude this much. But what I'm saying is I think Steph is.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  It's top five for me.

• 31:20Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  It really is. Um, he's more so than any Celtic.

• 31:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Um, you know, I don't know that there's anybody, I mean, maybe it's Brady. Again, I kind of cared more about Brady than I cared about the Patriots towards the end of it. The point is, is, uh, let's start with Curry because I was thinking about this today going, do I like, like, just knowing that we can still have a Curry night?

• 31:41Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  For those that hate it, fine. I mean, it just sucks because you're missing out on a guy.

• 31:46Bill Simmons?

  It's like hating blowjobs. How do, I mean, how do you hate Steph Curry? It's ridiculous.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  I just hate. I just can't believe it. Like this age, we're still getting Curry. That we're still getting Curry nights where for a half, it's like, he's gonna, he's gonna do, because this, I was really worried about Saturday night's game being like, is this going to be this atrocious regular season, pre Jimmy Butler version of the Warriors? Where it's like, they just don't have any kind of chance whatsoever.

• 32:13Bill Simmons?

  A lot of Kaminga ISOs. Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  It's so stark.

• 32:16Bill Simmons?

  Curry getting mauled off the ball.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Start with your talking points on the Warriors.

• 32:20Bill Simmons?

  Well, Curry's 37. He's two years older than Michael Jordan was in the 1998, uh, Last Dance season in the finals, right? When Jordan was like, whoa, he's so old, still doing it. He's 35, you know, and LeBron's blown out the age bear in a lot of ways, but LeBron is also this incredible physical specimen. And Curry is this guy that comes into the league and for the first four years, like he, you know, he's having ankle problems. He's in that Milwaukee trade. They give Milwaukee the choice between Monta Ellis or Curry. That's where his stock was. And then he has this incredible 10 year run and it started to feel like, you know, in October, November, it started to feel like we're at the tail end of it. It really did. Like his team wasn't good enough.

• 33:04Bill Simmons?

  The league around him was getting better and younger and, and just more athletic and faster. And it just seemed, it seemed like 22 is going to be his swan song. And then you watch him really since this Butler trade, but games like last night. And I had just come back from that Jokic game, which I can't wait to talk about. And there, there was a weird similarity with the two performances where these guys are at such a high level now. The teams are throwing like the most complicated defenses at them. Weird wrinkles, play to play, double teams. They're banging them. They're doing everything possible to throw them off. And they just have such command of the offense now and, and what they want to do. And when to pick their spots and when to, the sense of like, Ah, the game's kind of slipping, right?

• 33:48Bill Simmons?

  I gotta take over the game right here for like three minutes, right? Jokic has the exact same thing. And even though those guys are completely different players, watching how they orchestrate the game and insert themselves in the right spots. I just think, I thought he was so good last night. That third quarter he had last night was unbelievable. And Jokic's third quarter was even better. Jokic had 16 points and eight rebounds in the third quarter yesterday against Clippers. It just fucking annihilated them. Uh, but for Curry to do that against that Houston team with the length they they have with those wings, the guys they can throw at them, all the ways they were guarding him. Uh, and the fact that they didn't have Jimmy, you know? And then the other thing is Gary Payton won the game for them down the stretch.

• 34:31Bill Simmons?

  And you think like their 22 lineup. Now, Wiggins is in there, Moody's in the Wiggins spot, I guess. But that was basically their 22 lineup. Payton, Wiggins, Draymond, Curry. Who am I forgetting?

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Klay.

• 34:47Bill Simmons?

  Klay, so who's, and Buddy Heald in the Klay spot. So you had the facsimile Klay, you had the facsimile Wiggins. And then, but basically that, they were super small down this. Did you think they were going to be able to get away going that small? That was like small, small.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I was always worried about it. But then you watch Houston's offense go through these stretches and you're like, even if Golden State's getting stuck or Curry's missing some of these desperation shots. Cause I thought he had to get more desperate in some of the shots that he was making in game two, or excuse me, game one, uh, when they won game one, then game three. So it felt like there was a couple more like, are you kidding me moments? But his control of this game and leading those Gary Payton cuts where you just start to see, I mean, we even saw it somewhat in game three of Detroit where Cade started realizing like, two are staying with me off of everything, then Dern has to be ready to catch. And I think they hit Dern like three times in a row. And then eventually you know, they're going to adjust and go, okay, we've got to pay more attention to the role guy here.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Because he kind of figured it out with, with Houston and their defense. To see a team that's this good defensively with this many options, and I know Brooks fouled out of it. But they were, it's, it's kind of that mentality of like getting tired and making those mistakes. And it's like, oh my God, I gotta run to Curry. And Gary Payton just eaten for free every time off of all of it. If Curry felt like he didn't have a good shot. I think the April 6th game. Even though it felt like this warning to who Golden State was going to be facing defensively and the men Thompson headlines and all that stuff.

• 36:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  And I guess inside the building, a Houston staffer saying belt to ass, belt to ass. Like the joy that you get in taking out Golden State in their building.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  It may have been a blessing in disguise for Golden State and Curry because I felt like his shot aggressiveness, not from where he would be taking it. Cause Drant's talked about this and I remember when he explained it was really great. He was like, look, I noticed that this is the way they were handling something off of any kind of ball screen. So I knew I had to be like getting into my shot off of the catch because he couldn't close because if I waited, I gave him time to recover. I felt like in this series, you can tell that that regular season game on April 6th, maybe impacts Steph's decision-making of like getting into his shots more. Instead of kind of waiting to read stuff. And then once they were just trying to defend him with everybody at the end, as long as you can catch the ball behind all that stuff, it's going to be really easy for you.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  And that's where Gary Payton was, was huge because you know, Pajemski's up and down. Kaminga's all over the place. Draymond doesn't want to shoot. You don't really know what to expect out of any of the bigs. Like I just don't know that that team's supposed to be a really good defensive team. The good part is Houston can't score.

• 37:19Bill Simmons?

  They were super small. And I don't know, so Lakers.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  I think would throw into that, that 22 version. I think they like him better than, than Buddy this point.

• 37:29Bill Simmons?

  Right, but they needed Buddy was the clay last night. I guess they were using him for the spacing and he actually made some threes. Pajemski normally would be the guy in that spot. And they keep trying coming in now because they don't have a choice and it's just, you know, I think, I think the fruit's been out of the fridge for too long with him. Unfortunately, I don't, I don't know if there's a lot there, but they had to win that game last night. Because.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  I think Houston had to win that game last night.

• 37:55Bill Simmons?

  I, it was a weird, it was the rare game three must win. I agree. I, I felt like, uh, you know, cause now, now I think Golden State probably has a series. It's so hard for Houston to score. I just hate their plays. I hate their offense. It's one of those teams when they're up 10, 12, they look really good like they did in game two. But for normal games with, with real flow and they need to, and I just don't trust anything they're doing offensively.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  If Jimmy is limited, Houston still can win this series.

• 38:29Bill Simmons?

  Right. If he's fucked up for another two weeks.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, they have three days until game four. You know, um, we, I asked you when we did that, the part that's coming up with Van about who,

• 38:45Bill Simmons?

  who Golden State would rather play between the Lakers and Minnesota and you were pretty passionate about Minnesota. I think the one thing, if the, if Golden State went as small as they did last night against Minnesota, I think they'd have a little more trouble. Like I, I think they'd have more trouble from a rebounding standpoint because Minnesota is a little more built to protect the boards, I think, with smaller lineups than the Lakers when Dachid, who had one rebound tonight.

• 39:14Bill Simmons?

  Incredible Steph game. All right. You want to do Clippers?

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Uh, hey, can you double check the schedule stuff? Cause my internet now isn't working. Cause are you sure? I thought, I thought Denver had the extra day.

• 39:26Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you're right. I fucked up. Oh shit. Golden State's tomorrow night.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, tomorrow. Yeah.

• 39:31Bill Simmons?

  Oof.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  So that'll be interesting considering how hard they went in that one. But because I think pivoting into the Denver part of it, like, once you look at the schedule, like, all right, well, Denver gets the extra day, even though they're both playing on Saturday. That's all.

• 39:45Bill Simmons?

  So I went to a game four Denver Clips.

• 39:50Bill Simmons?

  And I thought about this a lot because I'm trying not to be hyperbolic and I've been to a lot of good basketball games over the last few years. It was the best basketball game I've seen in person since game one of the 2018 finals. Seven years.

• 40:07Bill Simmons?

  I did not, for the record, go to game four of the 2022 finals when Steph had his magical game in Boston. That, if I'd been at that game, that probably would have been the best one I've seen. But game one in the 2018 finals, that was the crazy LeBron game. That was the JR Smith, um, time, the, uh, chair Smith, whatever happened at the end of the game and the overtime and LeBron had, that was the incredible LeBron game. These teams played so hard, Russillo. It was refereed like a hockey game, like one of those hockey games where it's overtime and the refs don't want to call a penalty on anybody and people are just fucking nailing each other. And Jokic was out of his mind and Denver did the same thing JJ did today.

• 40:51Bill Simmons?

  He's basically like, my bench sucks. I'm going to see if I can try to win this game without bringing my bench in. Jokic played the whole first quarter, the whole third quarter, the whole fourth quarter. And I was sitting with Mike Tolan, who I shared my seats with, and the Clipper fans were bummed and I was like, there were seven minutes left, they're down like 15. I'm like, I, I think they might be able to make a run. He never took any of these dudes out and you could see Denver, you could see Gordon start to wear down, you could see Murray start to wear down and even Jokic, who, you know, he always seems like he's worn down. Clippers make the big run, crowd went crazy and, and the ending was like nothing I've ever seen. So it was a spectacular basketball game. What stood out to you?

• 41:37Speaker 01

  That this Clippers team, where I really liked their matchups against what Denver has as far as options defensively, they had 65 points through three quarters. So, I mean, it's a 20-point game and you knew he was going to keep everybody in because of the extra day and they come all the way back to make it 99-99. It was 97-96, so that was their first.

• 41:59Bill Simmons?

  Took the lead. Kawhi missed two, two big shots in the last minute that I think probably win them the game if he makes either of them and he missed them.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  I'm probably a little too biased about it just because I thought the Clippers are going to win this series and now I don't know because I'd expect Denver at home.

• 42:14Bill Simmons?

  I still think they're winning.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  I do too. I've, I've felt better about them through the four games than I have Denver. And I think there are some similarities in the way Curry's like, okay, this is what they did to you last time and this is how they tried to double you and these are the things like I need to avoid and if I have a little bit more of a window, have a quicker trigger here. I thought Jokic had a quicker trigger in this game, the quickest of any of the games because I mean, he just didn't take enough shots in game three. We talked about it at the end of game three going, or maybe we talked about it in game two and then I talked about it in game three, whatever, it's the same stuff. But just that to ask him, oh yeah, it was because of the Westbrook pass, right? Like, do you think there was ever any hesitation? And you were like, absolutely not because that's the way he sees the game and he knows in that moment, it's the right play, even if you're like, am I sure I want to do this with Westbrook? I thought.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Look, he had a million turnovers in game two. He's had some really bad moments for him for the standard that we have for him defensively in the first half. He also, just as an aside, as much as I love watching him play, the fact that he thinks he gets to talk to the ref every fucking time, every time, and it's not, it's not as nasty as Luca, so Luca's always going to get more shit, but it is consistent. It is as consistent where he has to check in with those dudes every single time, which I also think speaks to something that's really funny about this idea that he'll just retire in two years because he likes horses and has an accent. Anybody that's this competitive?

• 43:34Bill Simmons?

  No way.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Like, I just don't know that he's in a hurry.

• 43:36Bill Simmons?

  It's so funny you said that. I said that yesterday watching the game. First of all, he was a maniac.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Right. So when I see that, I'm like, so this guy, this guy's going to retire because he's just over this?

• 43:51Bill Simmons?

  With the thing, the stuff he was doing, first of all, he coaches the team now. Remember like Bill Russell was the player coach in the late 60s? Jokic coaches the Nuggets now on the court. He tells people where to go. There was this one moment at the end of a quarter when the Clippers were inbounding under the basket and Jokic just goes to the bench and calls for Deandre Jordan, brings him off the bench and puts him under the basket where he wants him to be for the inbound pass, but he's telling everybody what to do at all times. He's basically making the meals. He's cutting the food for everybody and he's feeding them. And it was, I was saying last night, it's the highest level I've seen somebody to go to in person since that LeBron 2018 game and the LeBron 2012 game in Boston.

• 44:36Bill Simmons?

  Like the stuff that he's doing, how great he is in all these different ways. It's unbelievable and you always feel like he's going to make a play. Doesn't matter how you defend him. He, if, if you're doubling him, he finds the right guy. He's doing everything. Porter was making threes last night, but uh, it was just awesome to watch. And then you think it's going to be a blowout. And then Kawhi is like, you know what? Fuck it. And just takes over the game for like six minutes and even did the thing where he takes the steal midcourt from Murray, where he does the thing where he's like, I'm going to take the ball.

• 45:10Bill Simmons?

  Is that the ball? I'm just gonna take, Jamal, I'm just gonna take the ball from me now. He just took it. It was just awesome. It was such a high level game and I can't tell you how physical it was. I don't know how it translated on TV, but this was like fucking, this was like game seven hockey, like bodies flying, people ramming into each other, people like, you know, pulling each other backwards and over. And it was so fucking good. It was like, these are two really, really, really high level teams. I think either of these teams could, could, could go a couple of rounds. I, okay, versus OKC, it gets tough for Denver, no bench. Clippers, I think have a better chance, but I will say the Clippers stumbled into one thing, Russell. They went that

• 45:53Bill Simmons?

  small lineup, which they'd been hesitant to do with all the shooters, because they always had Dunn out there, Derek Jones, or, but there was always one guy where Denver was like, go ahead, we're gonna give you that one in the corner.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Well, that's been Dunn's role this whole time.

• 46:04Bill Simmons?

  Take it, yeah. Just take, we're, just keep firing away, we're good. So finally, finally, the Clippers said, we're gonna put all our shooters out, we're gonna play this weird zone, and we're trying to fuck you up with it. And it worked. And they fucked, they fucked Denver up for three, four minutes. And then finally, Jokic shifted to try to attack Bogdanovich. He shifted, he, you know, he, his fucking computer brain just figured it out. He's like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  That's exactly what happened.

• 46:30Bill Simmons?

  And then he goes, he's like, right here, I will go to this right spot, and this will be how I fuck up the zone. And so it, eventually he figured it out. But I think they're gonna have to play that lineup, is my point. Because they need offense. They can't have Dunn out there just bricking threes.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, when it was 96, 95, that's a 30 to 9 run by LA. And I'm with you. Like, they're, the zone felt like it was fucking them up on the catches a little bit. It's easier to kind of help to him. I think LA's been really consistent that they don't want to send hard doubles. They want to send the second defender when he's going into his move. Unless Zubac has gotten to the point where he can keep him really far away on the catch, but. At 97 apiece, like the move that he makes when it looks like it's a little dirkish in that Dirk was always crazy.

• 47:20Bill Simmons?

  The three twirl?

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:20Bill Simmons?

  The triple twirl? Tripase triple axel?

• 47:23Speaker 01

  And you're thinking, is this actually gonna be good? Like, he's gonna, is this gonna even gonna be a good look? Forget if it goes in, is this gonna be a good look? And then he makes, I don't know what the hell's going on with his free throws right now, but um, yeah, look, I mean, that's why he's the best player in the world and he figured out a way to do it. They played six guys, sort of. Watson played 13 minutes, so they went all in on this one. And then they had to play like the full 48 because they blow this 20-point lead, so.

• 47:47Bill Simmons?

  Right. He thought he could finish the game with like seven minutes left in the fourth quarter and sit those guys. There was one thing that happened, uh, Pickett comes in in the first quarter. And um, he got stripped in the backcourt. And then he missed a shot and something else happened and they, and you could just see his confidence. It was like, watch the ninth grader in the high school game who's like, oh, God, this guy's not ready. So they pulled him out, they went to timeout and the Nuggets were like consoling him on the bench like, yo, yo, keep your head up. It was like, that's how bad it was. So I think they realized then, all right, we can't play this guy. DJ played in the first half. And then uh, the other one who played was Watson, but they were basically five guys. And somehow avoided foul trouble.

• 48:32Bill Simmons?

  The other guy who was awesome was Gordon. He was possessed. He was like going after Kawhi and that, the, the, the big picture thing I saw from them yesterday, because I really felt like, I don't know if you agree, after game three, that that team was ready to go either way. And you could have told me they're gonna roll over in game four and maybe get knocked out in five or six and that was it. And it was a fucked up season and they lost their coach and GM and the whole thing. And it just, they didn't have it. Or you could have told me, eh, they're actually gonna fight because they won the championship two years ago and they have some real pride. They came out with like real pride. They were like, we're not going down this way. We're, we're throwing haymakers and we're ready to fight you guys to keep this, especially Jokic. And that was the difference. And I didn't know they had it in them, I gotta be honest.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think I thought it would be, it would, well, look. I, I think anybody that watches Jokic and loves him as much as I would think anybody who's a ball knower and appreciates said ball, uh, you know, it's kind of, you know, we'd already talked about it with the honest stuff. It's like, can that guy? Can you, can he do enough to keep you in a couple of these games? Then who knows what happens the last couple of minutes? And I mean, it doesn't really feel like that game was that kind of game because they were up 20 in the whole thing. And I'm totally with you. Chonchar coming out there and I'm like, what is going on?

• 49:47Bill Simmons?

  I forgot about that. Yeah, he had two minutes.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Like in every Deandre Jordan minute, I'm like, I mean, it felt like they were playing three guys going, who else in the playoffs would these guys be playing for? And I know like there's some hope to pick, it can be something, but he was just swallowed up, swallowed up and just didn't know what's, and now if you're on the Nuggets, you're like, where are we getting any carryover minutes? End of the third or start of the fourth? And it's like, we don't have, we don't have it. We have the extra day and everything will be fine. But you know, this is, I think, why we yell so loud about Jokic being MVP. Because I, I'm really surprised considering the options the Clippers have and the options the Denver Nuggets do not have, that this is a 2-2 series with Denver going home.

• 50:32Bill Simmons?

  And we gotta mention, I mean, there's some,

• 50:36Bill Simmons?

  I hate to do it, it's the cliche, but the Clippers in the playoffs, like this is just, this is just them. The series is 2-2. They blow game one, which we did a pod after that game. We were like, they should have won that game. That was stupid. Then they lose this game at the buzzer, basically. This ties into, they moved here in 1979. They've had nine first round exits, five second round exits and one West Finals. And that's it. They've never won a series in less than five games. They have a bunch of playoff terrible memories. And what was different yesterday? And Mike and I were sitting there, we were watching Ballmer at one point in the fourth quarter when they were coming back and it was so loud. I mean, it's like, it's a top four atmosphere, like that into it.

• 51:21Bill Simmons?

  I'm telling you, it's top four atmosphere in the league right now. But the way how the fans are on top, it gets super loud. Like you can really, it affects the game.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Can you give us the other three, just for?

• 51:32Bill Simmons?

  Boston, definitely. MSG, definitely. And I think OKC gets really, really loud, like to the point that your head hurts. I would say those would be my three. Golden State used to, I haven't really felt the Chase Center. I don't think the Chase Center probably has it in quite the same way. But we looked over a Ballmer. And it honestly looked like he was having an orgasm. He was, it was just like he spent all this money building this building, hoping the Clippers are going to be good. He goes in on Kawhi, that crazy extension you and I never would have allowed him to do if we were conciliaries, right? We would have thrown our bodies in front of that. Keeps Harden, we would have thrown our bodies in front of that. And just had this amazing, amazing playoff game. There's celebrities

• 52:13Bill Simmons?

  everywhere. Bob Iger sitting next to Michael Eisner. How about that? Those two guys sharing the tickets. They, they, but everywhere and it's just, it felt like a Laker game. There was real energy and it was great and it was an awesome, awesome basketball game. And we're like, wow, Bomber did it, man. This is it. This was like, would have been like the dream to have a playoff game that was as good as this. But Jokic is going to be the enduring memory for me for that game. He's just so incredible. And we've talked about him all the time, but the, the level he went to in that game yesterday and how competitive he was. You're right. This guy's playing until he's 40. You can't turn that off. Like he's a psychopath. He was screaming at everybody.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  You seem horny tonight.

• 53:00Bill Simmons?

  I, I love basketball this weekend. It was great. It was, until the Dame thing was a bummer, but I thought Curry, Jokic, that Lakers Minnesota game, which we talk about later in the podcast, and what, what Ant was able to do against those guys. This is like, what a, what an incredible run for the league right now. Don't you think? Like this is one of the best 24 hour stretches the league's had in a while.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, Clay Travis. How about tweeting about the ratings?

• 53:31Bill Simmons?

  Get Bobby Burak on that one.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Look, I realize group economics wasn't a great jersey idea either.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  You know, I just think that the ratings thing, no one's gonna care because they're gonna say we're in the tank for the NBA. But if you look at any neutral conversation about this, the beginning was really bad. It was also going up against the Dodgers and Yankees World Series and another presidential election that had some coverage. Yeah. And then the NFL and the ratings have been really good and they did some historical stuff the first couple of weekends. And like, look, man, you want to tell me football's more popular? I concede that.

• 54:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Point taken. Well, another thing's happened. They, now we're, we're developing some history with some of these guys, right? Like Tatum and Edwards, some of the younger guys. It's a little familiarity now. Cleveland, maybe you'll get there. People know who SGA is. Casual fans, I think, know who he is. So.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  The Luca Lakers thing too. I mean, but I was.

• 54:32Bill Simmons?

  That's the godsend.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  I'll admit, when I saw the first weekend playoff numbers and where some of that stuff was, I was like, holy shit.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Like, I was, I was surprised and I think there's a lot of rating stuff that you can play some tricks with. But I, I just felt like the start of this season, it was turning into this massive victory lap for a bad, I think it wasn't even a quarter.

• 54:55Bill Simmons?

  The less they can go against football, the better the league's gonna be. And that's the thing they need to figure out, how they can shift the schedule a couple of weeks here and there, just so they can avoid it. And that's it.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, but football's gonna do this Christmas thing because it's about family. So that's good.

• 55:11Bill Simmons?

  That is true.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  For the people who have kids.

• 55:13Bill Simmons?

  It's a big, big family league. So who do you think wins Clippers, Denver? Who would you have?

• 55:18Speaker 01

  I'm gonna stay Clippers because I still like their options. Uh, I am a little worried about the Harden game that may be looming because we haven't really gotten it. Uh, he's been really steady.

• 55:27Bill Simmons?

  I thought we were getting it yesterday. Mike and I were complaining because Mike is a Philly fan. So he's like, oh, here we go. Philly Harden. He was like fucking pissed off. And then Harden, I thought really was a big part of that comeback and was attacking Christian Brown. And, uh, you know, I, I liked the decision he made. I thought he was competitive.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  You know what he's doing a really good job with too is he's.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  You know, sometimes simple doesn't get any praise because it just doesn't look all that great, but there's just some little stuff they were doing where they were trying to get Jamal on Kawhi because like Jamal just can't really defend anybody. And I think Jamal's stat lines looked like he'd tell you he's in this, but I would say the eye test of the four games, you feel like there should, there needs to be more, there needs to be more out there, right?

• 56:12Bill Simmons?

  They're throwing a lot of people at him though.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  No doubt. I mean, Chris Dunn is that dude and

• 56:17Bill Simmons?

  Chris Dunn's a nightmare. That's it. They're playing him even though he can't shoot because of all the other stuff he's doing quarter to quarter.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  And I know I talk about this front office, but I just think that they understand it. They all rave about Ballmer and everybody knows Ty Lewis really good and Van Gundy gets all sorts of love as well. But you know, they recognized Chris Dunn as somebody they said, you know what? If we have enough scoring around it, like we can live with this non-offensive guy as a perimeter player, which I think most times when you're trying to figure out who are your five? And in this case, who's your closing five? So can we, can we survive with somebody that is so defense first? And I think Zoo's improvement is a big part of that. Obviously Kawhi being healthy and then Norm kind of finding himself again a little bit later in the series. But there was just some really simple stuff they were doing. And it was funny because at that point I was like, oh, Denver screwed. They get it to Kawhi.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Murray's in trouble. Jokic does like a Luke Cornet double team where he's not doubling Kawhi. He's just like, hey, I'm going to be the next level of defender that you have to go past. And Gordon ends up watching the whole thing. He loses Derek Jones Jr. On the baseline. It's like unacceptable. You can't lose him. They lose him on the dunk the whole time. And I'm like, okay, these guys are exhausted or they're just fried right now. So

• 57:32Bill Simmons?

  Gordon was dead at the end of that game. Somehow he had the strength to the alley-oop.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  I thought it was funny too, when he and Harden got into it, they came out of commercial, they were next to each other like minutes later, just laughing about the whole thing. Yeah. Oh geez.

• 57:47Bill Simmons?

  I had a Chris Dunn point that you'll like. 19, 2022 Marcus Smart.

• 57:55Bill Simmons?

  2025 Chris Dunn, parallels?

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Without the, I've got this.

• 58:01Bill Simmons?

  Without the I've got this?

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:02Bill Simmons?

  He's like, like Marcus Smart with the I've got this pills that he's taken? I have another one for you that you're gonna love.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  What was, what was the Marcus Smart three that you went to live against the Lakers? I think I remember you just tweeting me like, if you're wondering, I was not a huge fan of that Marcus Smart three point attempt.

• 58:23Bill Simmons?

  There were so many, so many rough ones. I think I blocked them all out. You know how Jerry West is the logo?

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 58:32Bill Simmons?

  I think we should call Ben Simmons the half court logo. Cause he sees that thing and he comes to a screeching stop. It's the electric fence like a dog. I thought of that yesterday. I was at the game. I was like, I had to tell Russillo, we gotta start calling Simmons the half court logo.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  I gotta tell you, I, there's few things I enjoy, you know, I, as I've aged, I'm like, what do you really, what makes you happy? You know, like, what's, what's a good day for you? When's the last time you were peak happiness? Anticipating what Ben Simmons is gonna do and how he's gonna try to get rid of the ball in a way that looks like he's actually playing basketball. When he crosses half court, it's so much fucking fun.

• 59:07Bill Simmons?

  If they foul him once. If they, if they intentionally foul him once to put him on the line, I think that that'll be it. He'll be on the bench with the normatec on his leg from that point on. Been like, I don't know if I can go. Calf's kicking up again.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  He's flying around a little bit defensively.

• 59:25Bill Simmons?

  He was getting feisty with Jokic. Yeah, they, they were going at it. It was impressive. Let me ask you this. What do you think the line is on Fanduel for the Clippers Nuggets series right now? Games five and seven are in Denver.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Uh, well, when the line came out, I was surprised when we were going through it before the series started, right? Where Denver was minus 150, I think for the series. And then it switched, right? Didn't it switch to the Clippers were the favorite before the series even started?

• 59:56Speaker 01

  So if it flipped.

• 59:57Bill Simmons?

  It was minus 118 for the Clippers starting the series. And now it is 2-2 with five and seven in Denver.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  I'm gonna say it's somewhat similar in the Clippers favor still.

• 1:00:09Bill Simmons?

  The Clippers are minus 164 favorites.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  So Vegas seems to be aligned.

• 1:00:18Bill Simmons?

  Vegas is like, how are these guys? How is this 2-2 is Vegas' thing? The Warriors are minus 360. Minnesota is minus 500, as we covered before. And then in the East, all those series are.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  I gotta be honest with you. I think that's a heavy number on the Golden State one.

• 1:00:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cuz you could see Houston. The problem with Houston is they could just make some shots and all of a sudden it's 2-2. Right? Especially if Jimmy doesn't play. And Kerr is definitely looking at the bench going, ah, can I get 18 minutes out of Quentin Post?

• 1:00:56Bill Simmons?

  Can Kaminga give me like seven minutes right now? Like, I don't think he has a handle on the roster, would be my guess.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  I thought.

• 1:01:04Bill Simmons?

  He's got about five guys he could trust.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Fighting his ass off out there in the second half, too.

• 1:01:08Bill Simmons?

  I'm surprised he hasn't played more. And I'm actually surprised Jackson Davis hasn't gotten a sniff.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  When they get him.

• 1:01:17Bill Simmons?

  Isn't he on the team still? Remember, two years ago?

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Remember.

• 1:01:20Bill Simmons?

  Played him at all.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  No, I know. He's completely out of the rotation.

• 1:01:24Bill Simmons?

  A couple more quick things for you.

• 1:01:31Bill Simmons?

  Orlando Celtics.

• 1:01:35Bill Simmons?

  Do you think Orlando could be like genuinely good next year?

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought they're gonna be pretty good this year, so.

• 1:01:42Bill Simmons?

  If they had Suggs in this series, how many games would it go?

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  They have figured out Boston as much as they can. I mean, how much as you can figure out Boston while also still losing to them and never feeling that they're actually a threat to win series? They won game three because Boston shot three of 17. But the numbers are the numbers and it's very clear. They do the best job of limiting them to the three-point line. And, you know, I, I think Stan made a really good point. Was it today? I think it was today. Yeah, because out of a timeout, they ran like a really good screen where Derrick White came out of the top and caught it. He was like, you know what was nice about that? And I'm paraphrasing, but he was like, it was a play. They like ran a play.

• 1:02:24Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  They are so determined to beat you by hunting matchups. And we've been over this. Like when it doesn't look good, you're like, man, you guys are kind of predictable. And you do the same thing and then it's kind of dribble, dribble, dribble. And it's all the shit we talked about last. And then again, they've won an NBA championship. You look at their offensive numbers. They're all really, really good. So what can you do here by, by critiquing something that seems to work at a really high level? But to do it against Orlando where all the guys are huge, I wouldn't say Powell is necessarily a good defender. You're trying to hunt him. Franz is really good. Anthony Black is really good. You could probably attack Cole Anthony a lot of different places, but there's, it's a good defensive team.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  So are they getting Boston to be like, sure, cool, switch, do whatever you want. Like, but you're not going to beat us up the way other teams like just can't do anything with you. Because we have a lot of size and we have kind of a defensive first mentality and they've limited it to the three point line. So if they had Suggs, I think they'd get two games against Boston.

• 1:03:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I agree. Well, there, there's also, there's something they did in the last game that my dad was all fired up about. Orlando in the game they won, they, they were crashing the boards, right? They ended up with, I'm looking it up, 15 offensive rebounds in game three. And they were sending three, four guys to the boards on every shot, sometimes four, because they weren't worried about the Celtics running off a rebound because the Celtics are so deliberate at this point. They were like, let's use that against them. We don't have to worry about like how the Lakers, they'll send LeBron almost like a wide receiver down the, down the court, like for those long Luca passes. Orlando's like, we know you guys aren't going to do that. You guys want to walk the ball up.

• 1:04:08Bill Simmons?

  So we're just going to crash the boards. And I thought it was one of the reasons Boston lost the game. They never adjusted to it. Boston wasn't like playing with any pace. I also think. You know, if you don't think Drew Holiday is like massively important to the Celtics, you had to watch these last two games because in these crunch times when he's not out there, you really feel it like he I trust him. Other than Tatum, I trust him the most on anyone on the Celtics and he's always in the right spots. He's always going to get one big rebound. He's going to make one defensive play. He'll hit a three in the corner like you just know he's going to do stuff. And I just felt like they really missed him the last two games. But Orlando was a guy. Sure. I think black, something's there with black. I like what I've

• 1:04:51Bill Simmons?

  seen from him. I think you have him, you have Suggs, you sign Ty Jerome, Palo another year. I think Wendell Carter has shown that in a playoff series, he can play with some physicality and some toughness that I think really matters, you know, in some of these seven gamers. So that the pieces are there. I could see us going over locks in October with House, right? Like Orlando 49 and a half over. I think this is the year, blah, blah, blah. It's a it's a good, they're gonna lose the series, but I think it's a good outcome for them.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  I'd argue the drives from Franz and Palo were better than the drives from Tatum and Jalen.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  I don't know what the points per shot is on this stuff, but it just feels or maybe I'm just more impressed them. I mean, Franz had a drive today where he like drives right.

• 1:05:41Bill Simmons?

  On Zingas?

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Brings him to the paint from the side and then he like, yeah, I think it was against Porzingis.

• 1:05:47Bill Simmons?

  He's had a couple of drives on Porzingis where he made it look like Porzingis was like 6'2". He's used Porzingis's height against him. It's been impressive.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  The field goal percentage for Palo on the drives, like he's fifth in the NBA right now in the playoffs on drives, but I don't think this is actually sort of the new stats here. Uh, maybe I'm getting a little carried away with it. The no Drew part of it, you know, clearly that worked really well against Palo in game one. You missed Tatum in the other game that they win. So maybe it's like, all right.

• 1:06:15Bill Simmons?

  The other problem is when you go eight for 32 in every playoff game, you're probably not going to win a playoff series. Like Orlando just can't shoot.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  No, if KCP could shoot and they had Suggs, I don't always love the Wendell stuff. I know he had some moments there in game three, but I think he should be a backup for a team that's good in the playoffs and not your starting five.

• 1:06:37Bill Simmons?

  Knicks to trade before we go. Any takeaways?

• 1:06:44Bill Simmons?

  Incredible Towns game. That's like one of the great Towns games in a while. And he even capped it off with a dumb foul at the end when he got the fifth foul out of nowhere. And I was like, come on, Towns, you might go to OT, you're gonna have five fouls, but I thought he was awesome.

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's really responded since the end of game two. Super aggressive coming out in game three. And, you know, he had eight in the fourth quarter and Brunson had 15 in the fourth quarter. So if you're gonna get those guys scoring, it will. That's gonna be a better option than whatever the one-two punch is for Detroit. I've been more impressed with Detroit, though, than I expect. Just being in these games and fighting through it and having moments where it looks like it's gonna be over, especially after game one, where game one felt like a real lesson. Like, hey, just so you understand, there's a level to this and fun little third quarter, but we're gonna put a 21-21 nothing stretch on you and close it out. And then for them to come back and respond and win game two at that place. So I feel like Detroit's growing up quite a bit in this. I usually think it's one of the most overrated things ever of like, hey, get in there, get some

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  playoff experience. A lot of times I'm like, what? And then cost yourself a lottery pick for what? For getting your ass kicked by a higher seed and all this stuff?

• 1:07:53Bill Simmons?

  One of my stances you're stomping on right now.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  I've heard you say it. You said it to me 20 years ago.

• 1:07:58Bill Simmons?

  We've been arguing about it for two decades.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  You called into the show in 2003. I'm like, what are you?

• 1:08:03Bill Simmons?

  If the Celtics can just get in there, get some experience. No, I think it's valuable.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Brandon Hunter.

• 1:08:10Bill Simmons?

  I think.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  It is one of your tenants. I normally tell you you're wrong. I think it absolutely applies to this case of Detroit. That's not what you want. You don't want a moral victory because you feel like you're really, really close here. The problem is, is that you have to have Dennis match whatever the number two guy is for the Knicks. And that's just not gonna happen.

• 1:08:31Bill Simmons?

  Gets worse than that because you you're basically living and dying with Hardaway and Malik Beasley, which is fine in the regular season when you're trying to go like 46 and 36, but you're actually trying to win a playoff game and match baskets. You know, it's, it's, you can feel the talent difference. But Towns made, Towns made like a couple 29 footers in this game that swung the game. I actually thought Detroit probably should have won this game. When you consider the, the timing of the Brunson injury, the fact that it felt like Detroit was pulling away. The crowd was crazy.

• 1:09:05Bill Simmons?

  I'm sure Detroit's got to be kicking themselves. And by the way, Cade had a wide open 14 footer at the end. You know, everybody was talking about whether Hart fouled hardware or not in the corner. And by the way, when a game's that physical,

• 1:09:19Bill Simmons?

  you know, that I'm, I'm not good with that deciding the game when you've let everything go the whole game. Cade had, they got the shot they wanted. Cade was really good all game and got a really nice open 14 footer and he missed it.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, they didn't even run a switch or a screen to try to get into something else. They kind of went early, which I, I'm wondering if that's, I'm not criticizing it. I just was surprised and like, all right, they'll probably figure out some sort of thing. But maybe they were afraid of bringing the second guy in and now Cade's going up against two. That's usually what will be happening is that we don't want to use a screen here, even though it's going up against OG. Cause even when they've screened OG off of him, I think just OG's recovery is, has been really, really good. And some of the Cade attempts that I've looked at, I really like when they use OG to attack Cade. But you don't know what you're going to get with, with OG all the time offensively. But that's something I think I've liked the times that they've done it and I didn't see a lot of that.

• 1:10:08Bill Simmons?

  Would you ever not have OG guarding Cade? Yeah, I have so many issues with Tibbs in this series and especially the game today. And that's the one, I just can't, I would just have OG on Cade the entire game.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  I'm pretty sure he is the primary assignment.

• 1:10:23Bill Simmons?

  Bridges was on him a lot today in that game. There's some stuff Tibbs does, like, I don't understand why Brunson brings the ball up every time. Every other team takes that pressure off the guy when a team's pressuring. Like just let Bridges bring the ball up, save those miles and those minutes on Brunson. And they're just like, yo, just work your ass off bringing, bringing the ball up against Schroder, who's an absolute pest. He's one of the three pests in the league. I don't understand why you're putting the miles on him.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  You know who else would love that?

• 1:10:53Bill Simmons?

  They played a lineup in the second half with no, with, with no Towns and no Brunson. Tibbs, it's like, one of those guys has to be on the court at all times, period. Like, what are you doing?

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  A Sarr would probably love that idea of Brunson not bring it up because he's just gonna be, the number of times Brunson has gotten Sarr with his stuff. And today wasn't even bad. I, I thought it was hilarious that game two, people were just, you know, again, it's kind of like how much people are really watching or how close they're watching. It's like, man, this Brunson flops a lot. He's out there hunting a lot of stuff. Like dude, I'm telling you right now, that's not even close to the worst that we've seen from Brunson.

• 1:11:28Bill Simmons?

  No, no, he's, he's been on a seven this series.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  My favorite series ever was Sixers fans having the audacity to complain about Brunson in the playoffs last year.

• 1:11:38Bill Simmons?

  Oh, when they had a beat on their team?

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Right. So this is the deal. Like Sixers fans can't ever bitch about somebody else. Knicks fans can't because of Brunson. Atlanta's been covered. Dame, we're gonna be nice right now.

• 1:11:47Bill Simmons?

  Rockets fans who going forward grandfathered in for 30 more years.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  I have some Nemhart video I may submit to the league and be like, are you gonna let this guy run through someone's spine one day?

• 1:11:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  And then give him the end one? Like what the hell? Nemhart's not hunting for fouls. He's, he's trying to cause permanent limb damage to anyone defending him.

• 1:12:09Bill Simmons?

  Wait, can we do, can we do the most boring segment you could do in a pod and praise somebody for 30 seconds?

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  I just have to just add this. Bickerstaff's challenge in the first quarter is the single worst challenge of any coach in the playoffs right now.

• 1:12:21Bill Simmons?

  The challenges are getting worse. I know.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  You see, I think some coaches are a bit like state DAs where they go, I can't win this case. I want to keep a clean record. Like I think there's some coaches out there going, no, I want at the end of the year to be like, he was 31 and 12 in challenges. What a fucking brilliant coach. It's like, but Bickerstaff gets so caught up in the emotion of the game. Like I almost think he was like, you know, as much as I'm upset we're down in this series, at least I get to motherfuck these officials for five minutes on the court and feel justified about that play in the corner. That in the moment, I'll admit, I know the tournament report said there was contact. I didn't think it was like the worst thing I've ever seen that's a non-call, which isn't going to make Detroit fans happy. But anyway, I know you had a point. I want to get that Bickerstaff thing in there because I, I couldn't, I was

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  like, dude, you're gonna use your challenge right now on an out of bounds in the first quarter?

• 1:13:13Bill Simmons?

  I've been kind of blown away by Cade and I know he's the turnovers are too high in these playoff games. The what he's navigating against those Knicks perimeter guys. The burden that he has, but also like there's real leadership from him already and he's pretty young. You know, like there was that Ron Holland moment, Ron Holland had to get mad because you know, it's in the bargaining agreement. He got mad at somebody and stood over somebody for a second and Cade came flying in and shoved him out like he just has a real wherewithal of what's happening.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  You get some Rambis like flashbacks?

• 1:13:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, he's, I just think he's, he acts like he's 31. And how old is he? Like he was in the draft three years ago?

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, maybe he's.

• 1:13:57Bill Simmons?

  Is he 23?

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:13:59Bill Simmons?

  22?

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  No, he was in last year's draft.

• 1:14:03Bill Simmons?

  He's 23 years old.

• 1:14:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's 23. So.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. Ron Holland?

• 1:14:11Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I'm saying Cade Cunningham.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, okay. I'm sorry.

• 1:14:14Bill Simmons?

  No, Ron Holland's like 15 years old.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  A man's? So.

• 1:14:19Bill Simmons?

  Cade Cunningham is 23 years old and I just think that's the win is you're putting him in this atmosphere with the crowd. He's got a taste of it. I have some ESPN notes.

• 1:14:33Bill Simmons?

  Maybe don't go to a commercial when Jalen Brown is, when Jalen Brunson is leaning against the scorer's table, holding his ankle in complete agony and do the, we'll be back after this. And then you're gone for four minutes. That's one. Number two, I don't think you need to show Jalen Rose 15 times after you fucking laid him off two years ago, three minutes before he was about to do a get up segment and gets a call and says, don't go and get up because you're about to be laid off. Maybe don't show him over and over again during the game, you motherfuckers. Aggregate that, I don't care.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot many zag. Doesn't Jalen want to be on TV?

• 1:15:16Bill Simmons?

  Good zag.

• 1:15:22Bill Simmons?

  Maybe there's truth in both sides.

• 1:15:26Bill Simmons?

  Hey, there's Jalen Rose. We completely blindsided him two years ago after he did 15 years of great work for our company. He seems happy. Just classic.

• 1:15:39Bill Simmons?

  Just can't get over that place.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  We avoided two, like when Jalen Brunson goes down, tries to stand up, falls back down. I was like, okay, there's one. Like I just assumed there's two big ones coming. They're going to potentially alter the course of history. And then Ant goes down today when LeBron rolls up on him like it's a football play.

• 1:15:58Bill Simmons?

  The Solomon Hill reverse.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  It was a totally clean play by LeBron. There's nothing dirty about that whatsoever. It's the playoffs, the guy's diving on the ground. If he doesn't go for it, then it's Cam Newton in the Super Bowl and people are going to hate on him there. I didn't think there's anything, you have a look in your face that you think it maybe was a little on the, on the edge. I don't.

• 1:16:15Bill Simmons?

  No, it was, it was exactly the same play as the Solomon Hill play.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  All right. Do you think it was the same plays as Marcus Mark Curry play?

• 1:16:26Bill Simmons?

  I never like when anyone dives at the ball when they're going to somebody's legs. But in that one, it, that seemed pretty fluky. Ant was putting his foot back to plant right as LeBron was diving. I didn't, I didn't feel like there's any ill intent at all.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  None. I didn't think so either. But when Ant's down, and by the way, we thought he went down in game one and he left. And the way he was grabbing his calf. So this is, it's just crazy that we've had two from Ant where you're like, uh oh. And then we had one from Brunson where he stood up and then fell back down. It's like, no, but he's actually going to get 15 on you in the fourth quarter.

• 1:17:01Bill Simmons?

  Do we put a moratorium on the Willis Reed references for like a round one playoff game? And it's game four Willis Reed, like one of the greatest moments in the history of the league. And by the way, his hip muscle was completely torn off his body and he got shot up with a horse tranquilizer just to drag his leg around for like two jump shots. I just feel like that should be kind of put in the, in the safe as, as we're not allowed to compare things to that.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  I would do horse tranquilizers once, but that's it.

• 1:17:31Bill Simmons?

  But that's it.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  I wouldn't want to get used to it.

• 1:17:38Bill Simmons?

  All right. I think we hit everything because we have the rest of the pod with Van that you can hear right after this break on the podcast for the YouTube audience. We are gonna say goodbye. Russillo, enjoy all the hoops this week. I'll see you now that you're the new Lakers Diane Cannon. I'll probably see you at the Laker game on Tuesday.

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  There's a chance I could be there. Yeah.

• 1:18:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  I mean, and in person.

• 1:18:03Bill Simmons?

  Can't pass it up. And LeBron and Luca all in person. I've heard of all of those guys.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  Jackson Hayes.

• 1:18:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  Like, no one has a higher usage motherfucking refs than that guy. He gets it in in those two and a half minute shifts.

• 1:18:17Bill Simmons?

  Right. He's gotta get it all done. Good to see you, Russillo. See you next week.

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:18:22Bill Simmons?

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• 1:19:06Bill Simmons?

  goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're gonna want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras, and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual. Courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at mickelobulcher.com/courtside.

• 1:19:50Bill Simmons?

  Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Opening US residents 21 plus begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at mickelobulcher.com/courtside for free entry. Entry deadlines, prizes and details. All right, we are recording a little after 3:30 on Sunday afternoon. We told Van Lathan to come join us and talk draft between the two sets of games. But the Lakers game was so awesome against Minnesota. Minnesota goes up 3-1. Now, we're just gonna do this now out of sequence. Russillo, your guy, Anthony Edwards, 43 points, nine rebounds, six assists, 44 minutes, a key cut in the last 15 seconds of the game during a broken play.

• 1:20:32Bill Simmons?

  And they end up beating the Lakers three games to one. There was a lot of high end offensive chess going on there with Edwards. I was really impressed. They're doubling him. They're not doubling him. They're doubling him again. And he was just kind of figuring it out. I thought that was the best game I've seen him play.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  I loved it. I think he's just turning into a star in a way. I think we thought we were seeing it last year. So maybe we're just doing the same thing all over again, just a year later. Just love to see him get to the free throw line after 26 field goal attempts in game three and zero free throw attempts, which is fucking impossible. But they found a way to do it. So, look, I think it was all about the size part of it. Even though the Lakers five guys they play are big players. It's not like they're small. Where you're absolutely right, like I love, I'm still like adrenaline rush after this game because of the chess part of it going, is JJ going to survive playing these five guys? His best five guys? Is he going to survive playing them the entire second half?

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  And like Luca allows LeBron to coast a bit. LeBron was great tonight. Reeves had a great second half. Rui hit every shot that he had to hit because people were helping off of him. But in the beginning of the fourth quarter and you're watching going, it looks like he can drive on these dudes. I was upset Finch called the timeout to save it before the three minute mark. I'm like, why are you calling a timeout to even give these guys any kind of break? Because I think that's what JJ was hoping. Will there be stoppages? Can I get some energy back in these dudes? And look, it comes down to make or miss either way. And LeBron made some great defensive plays there, but.

• 1:22:05Bill Simmons?

  Wait, don't step on all the points. We got a lot of points here.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I know. I just, I, I love this game because-

• 1:22:11Bill Simmons?

  Can we go back to the five guys though, the JJ rolling the dice?

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, whatever you want to do. I'm too excited. So take over.

• 1:22:17Bill Simmons?

  No, JJ did the same thing the, uh, the Nuggets did yesterday. They're like, our bench sucks.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  And we're playing again and we have the extra day off.

• 1:22:26Bill Simmons?

  Extra day. Can we win this game in the first 42 minutes and maybe stagger the minutes so that the last six minutes don't matter? And they go for the kill the same way the Nuggets did. And yet the Timberwolves hung around, hung around, hung around, hung around. I thought LeBron looked exhausted and yet he made like three of the better defensive plays of, of the playoffs. Dan, when you watch, I know you're a Laker fan, you should mention.

• 1:22:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:50Bill Simmons?

  So you're watching this and they're just not, JJ's like, fuck it. No bench LeBron, just run in the corner during some offensive possessions. Maybe you can grab 20 seconds there. Maybe there'll be a challenge. Are you like, why aren't you playing the bench? Or are you like, this is the right move?

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  It felt like this was that it was the right move. It just, it, to be honest with you, you know, I never get mad at coaches when they tighten up rotations in the playoffs. Everything is so high leverage. You go with the guys that got you there. You, you trust the guys that, that got you there.

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  That was a tight rotation.

• 1:23:21Speaker 02

  That's a super tight rotation. It's a super tight rotation.

• 1:23:24Bill Simmons?

  Tighter than tight.

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  No, no rotation.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Really, it wasn't a rotation.

• 1:23:28Speaker 02

  There's no rotation.

• 1:23:29Bill Simmons?

  No rotating.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  No rotation at all. Um, so I, I never, I never get on coaches when they do that, particularly JJ, who, uh, is really in an interesting situation as a coach, right? He gets a team that is, has the bones of a decent team. Then he gets Luca, the expectations ratchet through the roof. Now he's in the playoffs against an opponent that everybody expects him to beat, uh, and they are not beating them and they are getting outplayed, out hustled. And to be honest with you, kind of out coached as well. So the fact that he decided that he was gonna, uh, kind of go with the guys that he could trust the most didn't really surprise me. I am really, really impressed with Anthony Edwards though, like ridiculously impressed with his ability to figure the game out on the fly.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  And really be, uh, like a dominating figure for, for the Timberwolves to, to rally behind.

• 1:24:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. You're watching this, you're going, they can just stay within like- Five to seven with five minutes left. They have the younger team and the better legs and they have Ant who's going to be the least tired out of all of these guys. I thought what LeBron did coming off Friday night, Russel, I think you and I saw it the same way. That Friday night game was super physical, grueling, and it almost seemed unfair. They had to play like 40 hours later. It just seemed like a bad schedule spot for them.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Not even.

• 1:24:45Bill Simmons?

  I thought JJ was gonna go the other way and be like, I gotta play the bench guys more because my guys are gonna be dead from Friday night. It was the opposite. And LeBron, especially the first three quarters, I don't really understand what I'm seeing anymore at age 40 for him on defense. This is like, he looks like 2013 Miami Heat LeBron in some of these moments. But they had those two guys humming in the first half and they're still, what was it? Like a three-point game at halftime? I just don't think they have enough. And at the same time, I would not bet against them coming back from 3-1. Do you, are you in the, I think this is too tall of a task for Lakers zone, or do you think there's a path for them?

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Well, you know, like after the first game, you're, you're thinking, okay, that was really ugly. Like seeing it happen, you go, oh my God, like they're too big for them. Like this is actually a real problem. And then you're like, yeah, but Naz read and Jaden McDaniels scored 48 points and nobody missed any shots. It felt for like, for like a half an hour of real time. And then you have the Luca game in game two, we're like, all right. And now Jaden wasn't very good. So this, this makes a lot of sense. I mean, Jaden wasn't really much tonight. Nas didn't make any shots. So it's not like they got the full compliment game. Luca, it's, it's just so hard to doubt him. But you know, look, he, he had the stuff where he kept getting stuck in the trap. And I, I don't know why he would keep doing it

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  other than there was a lot of times it worked. Like it would work out of the trap and LeBron would end up with the ball, then he would make the perfect read and then swing it. And just Rui was so huge in that third quarter. But I do think there's just more moves for Finch where JJ basically admitted tonight, like unless Luca is making insane shots, or he and LeBron are taking turns. You know, I just don't know that they can, they can hang with this team because the same thing happened on Friday where. When it mattered, it felt like Minnesota had a few more things they felt good about, even though the number one scorer to number two is a big drop off. And you know, look, Randall's had a bit of a rebirth here, which is one of the biggest reasons why I think they were motivated to do that cat trade.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  As bad as it looked for so much of the season, it was just, there's going to be so much pressure on Ant in the playoffs. The secondary option needs to be able to create some stuff on his own with the ball. And I think that was, even though, you know, Randall's not exactly like everybody's going, oh my God, they got Randall. I think that was part of the basketball approach to having him there and you're seeing it.

• 1:27:13Bill Simmons?

  My favorite Randall stretch I've seen, Ben, probably ever in his career from a two-way standpoint. I'd given up. This would be a good, it'd be a good website for like, where you just track, where you're like, where it's like, have you given up yet or you're still holding on? I would have just checked the, I've given up box on Randall. I'd love the way he played. He also seems physically like just not afraid of Luca or LeBron. And I think that's one of the problems for the Lakers in this series is Minnesota has kind of the same kind of size, like just bodies to bang with them, at least make it hard for them. But were you ever out on Randall? Where'd you stand?

• 1:27:49Speaker 02

  I felt like he had kind of outlived his NBA usage, his usefulness at like a high level. I didn't know that we, yeah, I didn't know that we would ever see him being a difference or a difference maker in a playoff series again. It just seemed like it was petering out. And when you look at it, the trade looked like, it looks now like a trade that worked out for each team. You know, you see Cat and the Knicks have a, have a big win and he's playing really well. And Randall has really found a way to fit in with the Timberwolves in a way that I did not think that he would be able to. I thought that he was going to stop the ball. I thought he was going to clog things for Ant. I thought he was going to be someone that Ant would get frustrated with. And you did see that at times this year, but once they kind of figured it out, and once the, the pace of the game slowed down a little bit in the playoffs, you're kind

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  of seeing his usefulness. He really is, he's an athletic guy who can guard a lot of different guys. He's decent in the ISO. You can't leave him open. He'll make the shot every now and again. So, and he's tough. Like to Russillo's point, they are a tough team and the Lakers are kind of soft. They're, they're a little Hollywood getting pushed around by these guys. It's depressing to see. Yeah.

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  Wow. Good culture thing, huh?

• 1:29:02Bill Simmons?

  I never thought, I never thought Randall would learn how to not be a ball stopper.

• 1:29:08Bill Simmons?

  I'm still not convinced. Are we sure? Russell, are we sure that this is a new chapter of Randall? Or is this just a phase?

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  No, but I think what you're looking at here is, I don't know, do they, do they promise Jackson Hayes that he gets to start? Is there some sort of bonus in his contract for playoff starts?

• 1:29:26Bill Simmons?

  Like Little League coaches son gets to play short for dinner?

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  And I'm not arguing with it. Like, like if you're a Lakers dude and you've got a pod or whatever, whoever's on TV or, you know, like, hey, they get to stick with Jackson Hayes longer? No, they don't. Okay. Like, I think JJ knows what he's doing on this one. But yet they keep rolling him out there to kind of start this whole thing. So really what it comes down to is like, Randall's not afraid to take it to LeBron. That was one of the most glaring things in game one live.

• 1:29:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  And I went, man, like Randall doesn't give a shit. He's almost excited. He's almost too excited because then he'll barrel into him and then LeBron will get a call. So Randall just feels really comfortable because Ann is being, any of the possessions that matter, Ann has doubled. Okay. And sometimes Minnesota, like there's all sorts of things that I love that the Lakers did that I don't like. Like I thought DiVincenzo was a mess tonight. Rudy, they felt bad that he didn't take any shots, I guess, in game three. So they run the first fucking play for him. And guess what? He can't hang on to the basketball. I would challenge anyone. There's no one that plays regular minutes that is worse with the basketball in his hands. Like a jugs machine, if a jugs machine was hanging out with Rudy, the draft gurus would give that jugs machine a fifth round grade and be like, it's not accurate enough.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  And you'd be like, that doesn't make sense. Usually jugs machines are pretty accurate. Like they didn't complete a pass all day. And so they still don't know what to do with the Rudy part of this. The elbow in the back of the head LeBron was just like totally stupid in that moment. Um, but damn, I think Randall just sees the space. Cause you've got to still at least show to Nas, you have to show to Na, you have to show on Conley, even though he doesn't really want to shoot. Um, and then Jaden. And so I think when there's like two guys and one retreating off, and I think Randall is just salivating at some of this stuff. And that's why, yeah, I think he's still a ball stopper. But here I don't think there's as much of a penalty for it.

• 1:31:17Speaker 02

  But he's just been, over the course of his career, he's just been so bad in the playoffs.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:23Speaker 02

  He's been so bad in the playoffs where teams have been able to force him to his weak side, completely neutralize his scoring. You just did not expect for him to contribute in any meaningful way when the stakes got to their highest. And of course, he would do it now that he's skull fucking the Lakers and I have to watch him.

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  Well, look, I mean, you must have had flashbacks on that foul against Luca because that was, that could have been the game. I mean, you held up, you played defense, there's four left on the shot clock and you foul them and he was, you know, to his credit, he was upset with himself, not the call. But then I'm thinking of you, Van, going, you must have turned to somebody and be like, this is why we got rid of that dude. You know, because the numbers have always been like, look, go to basketball reference. You're like, how do you not like this guy? And you're just like, look, there's just a lot of in-between stuff that you've never really liked. So.

• 1:32:16Bill Simmons?

  What? One other thing, like, like Reeves had a bad first half, right? But he has a bad first half. You don't, you don't notice. There's guys that can be bad and you don't really notice for like an hour. When Randall's bad, you just see it. You see it on his face.

• 1:32:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:32:30Bill Simmons?

  Body language is bad. You're just constantly aware. It's like this black cloud just goes over his head and follows him.

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  That's such a good point, though. It's because he doesn't stop being bad when it's bad. He's like, I got this. You're like, dude, you don't. You don't.

• 1:32:43Speaker 02

  And he'll, he'll fuck up three times in a row and then dribble the ball out beyond the three-point line, call a defender out and just like he's gonna get in his bag. And I'm like, you're watching and you're like, Randall, you're still in your bag, huh? Get out your bag for a second. But he'll do it anyway. Uh, but it's working. Look, you know what? You know what I was thinking as I was watching this game? I was thinking, in years past, this would have been exactly what the NBA wanted. They want Ant in a series with LeBron where young dude beats old guy and becomes heir apparent to face of the league or whatever it is. They want this. I'm wondering if they want it right now. I don't think that they do. Like, you know, this, this is probably with the, with the Lakers and the Luca thing and everything. I think they probably want the

• 1:33:28Speaker 02

  deepest run for the Lakers that they could possibly get. But I mean, really, all NBA fans should want the coronation of Anthony Edwards and they should want it to, for him to take it from LeBron James in the way that the, the Timberwolves are taking it from the Lakers right now.

• 1:33:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, the, the bummer is, I like watching both of these teams and I feel the same about Nuggets, Clippers. I just enjoy all four of those teams and we're gonna lose too. And yet we're gonna probably keep a couple, uh, teams I don't enjoy as much as we headed to round two. The thing with

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  I can't believe these are first round. I mean, even if Golden State had Butler, like the fact that these are these six teams going at it in the first round. I don't, this is, we're spoiled.

• 1:34:07Bill Simmons?

  Well, I was watching today wondering, cause Golden State, I don't want to jinx it, but I think winning that game, stealing that game last night without Butler was such a good sign for them. And I'm sure they're watching a game like today. They have a couple of days off and they're in that, all right, if we can somehow get by Houston, who would we rather play? And I, after that game, I don't even know what I would tell them because yeah, the Lakers don't have a bench.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  No, it's definitely the Lakers.

• 1:34:32Bill Simmons?

  You think?

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Cause they know, they know there's no big version of it.

• 1:34:36Bill Simmons?

  Cause they could just go small ball against them the whole time?

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  Right. Maybe I'm too influenced by the last time I saw them play each other where the Lakers wanted to be small and Golden State was like, awesome. You know, like I, whatever, whatever happened in game three, I don't know that, I feel like I've seen too many minutes where they're just getting beat on by bigger guys. They still may win the game, but I don't know if they're having a blast while they're doing it. So I, I would think they would be afraid of what Minnesota may be capable, capable of.

• 1:35:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the ceiling of Minnesota is higher, but you watch those two guys going at the same time today. Like, I don't, I think Minnesota has a better team. I wouldn't count the Lakers out in this series yet. Like you figure they'll win game five. Ben, I, I looked already, I looked into the future. It's a 65 to 10 free throw advantage in game five. That's, that's the over under. But then game six.

• 1:35:29Bill Simmons?

  Who knows, you know that those Lakers have had some guys who have been at some big games over the years. And then you have that fear of like, if we don't take care of this, now we gotta go back to LA for game seven. Minnesota, I think, has a better team, though.

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm looking at it. I'm looking at the series and I keep waiting for the Lakers to show that they have an edge over the Timberwolves and that moment has not come. Even in game two,

• 1:35:55Speaker 02

  where the Lakers get the win, it's one of those wins where you go, oh, we didn't figure very much out in that situation. Like the tail skip.

• 1:36:03Bill Simmons?

  It was a weird hand game.

• 1:36:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, like we didn't, we didn't figure very much out. And it seems like when the Timberwolves need to make a play, or when they need to batten down the hatches, that they have things that they can go to, they have easier ways to get stops and easier ways to get buckets than the Lakers do. And the Lakers seem like they're operating on a real high degree of difficulty with everything that they're trying to do. And it doesn't seem like over the long run, they're going to be able to mount anything to tip the series, the series back, you know, on their side. Yeah.

• 1:36:32Bill Simmons?

  They have to double hand. They have to hope whoever their smallest guy isn't getting bullied by Rando or Nasri or whatever. There's a lot of things they're hoping don't happen. The T Wolves basically just seem like we just have to make sure Luca doesn't get easy looks, seems to be a lot of their strategy. But Russillo, this stat's interesting. Lakers shot 19 for 47 from three today. Usually if you're around 19, 20 made threes in the NBA, the way it is now, that's a win, right? Like 19 out of 20 times. So if I'm the, if I'm JJ, I'm like, fuck, we played our five out thing. We dumped Jackson Hayes finally. I tried to get away with no bench as much as

• 1:37:12Bill Simmons?

  possible. We made all our threes. I got a great game from Rui. I got a huge second half from Reeves and we still lost. Now what do I do? And I wouldn't know what to tell them.

• 1:37:24Bill Simmons?

  More Gabe Vincent?

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  No, I don't. I mean, Gabe Vincent flying around, sure, if you want.

• 1:37:30Bill Simmons?

  A little more Goodwin? With more? Just a sprinkling of Goodwin?

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Goodwin sprinkles?

• 1:37:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Goodwin flakes?

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  What exactly are Goodwin sprinkles? I think he's really competitive on defense, but he's not a very big player. And so I think he's, like, he kind of got what he needed. He got the game from Reeves in the second half. He had Rui off of those traps. Felt like he was doing everything right. They even got a couple of threes, I think, from Finney Smith.

• 1:38:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  They were spacing it out really well. LeBron fucking living at the free throw line, but they were fouling him. I mean, DiVincenzo, some of these fouls that this guy will do, it's like, hey, you're not going to stop him. Like LeBron was already rid of the basketball.

• 1:38:13Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  And DiVincenzo follows through. Maybe I'm just annoyed because he argues it so much. And then you go back to the replay. Like, DiVincenzo is like a high school kid caught in the woods with a beer. You know? You're like, the chances of this guy telling the truth right now is zero. Like, it doesn't matter what I ask him. He's just going to say, hey, dude, it wasn't me. So, um, you know, I, I think there's always like these interesting three, four minute stretches where maybe somebody could hit some shots or you get some energy. I think the gamble that JJ had strictly was can my guys hold up enough physically if I do this to them? Because I don't feel like I'm necessarily bearing some other great options. And I think in a way, they still kind of survived it, even if I felt like off the dribble.

• 1:38:58Speaker 01

  You know, like, and dude, he had a layup at 72, 63, where even for him, he went through four guys. And I thought, like, even, like, my expectations of him are so high that he's going to find a way to stop, turn the corner and get by. He's going to beat two, he's going to split double teams, he's going to get the angle, he's going to beat you to the spot. He went through four dudes. So I thought it was actually going to be worse with how tired the Lakers guys were. So maybe, you know, maybe being tired shows up on the inbound pass that LeBron loses in that spot.

• 1:39:32Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  Down three, which is kind of lost in, in just the melee of all the events that happened to close out this game.

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  Ant never plays, um, he always plays fearless, but he does sometimes play passive. And for whatever reason, he's not passive now. Like you seen him before the soft double comes out there and he kind of doesn't know what to do with it. You see games where he's too reliant on taking high degree of difficulty threes or high degree of difficulty long twos. You see that, none of that now. And also he's playing mind games with LeBron James. He's getting into him physically, like these guys are rallying behind him. It's a big deal series for Ant right now, for sure.

• 1:40:19Bill Simmons?

  That's my favorite thing, international basketball. Yet another person really helped by their experiences abroad.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he was doing this, like when he was going at Durant, being like, I'm whatever the fucking belt you think you had was like, this is mine.

• 1:40:34Bill Simmons?

  It's over.

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  And what I appreciate is that he's qualified to do this because he's this special. And so him and LeBron going at it. And then of course he got called for the foul. Um, but granted he was on defense, but you could see that happening. It was really fun and then they showed the replay over and over again. I think we all enjoy that stuff. Like that for me is, is one of my favorite things about this. And it's not even being disrespectful, I don't think to LeBron. It's that Ant, I think collectively the NBA fans would say, well, he can do it. You know, when Jalen Green is doing shit to guys that won four rings last night, I'm like, yeah.

• 1:41:11Bill Simmons?

  Settle down. Wait, you made that key point in the beginning, Russell, about how he did this last year too, but something feels different. And I think this is what it is. Um, when he was doing, when he made his playoff run last year and had those 10, 11 games where we're like, shit, those look like Michael Jordan's stats. What's going on here? Um, the other teams weren't treating him yet like he's being treated this year. It was just happening in real time. Where you're going, man, this guy's kind of amazing like what's and then finally we get to the Dallas series and they're like, all right, we're fucking, this is over. We're now treating him like he's a guy. This playoffs, he's been treated in the, in the Lakers series like he is at that level. And I think that's to me is the difference is understanding I am now here.

• 1:41:56Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to be treated this way. And the way that he feels like he's on the same level as Luca and 40 year old LeBron. I feel like they're all peers. I, we wouldn't have said that last year. I didn't feel like he was like Jokic's peer last year. He was just having an awesome series. You know what I mean? This year, I feel like he's peers with those guys.

• 1:42:15Speaker 02

  It ended with a, it ended kind of with a whimper, which kind of like, you know, makes you forget about it a little bit. But I mean, at this point, if you're a Lakers fan, or if you're the Lakers organization, we're going to have to go to some desperate measures to, to get him out of here, to get him off of his game. We're probably going to have to Shannon Sharpe him, uh, send somebody into the DMs, uh, get him off of his game.

• 1:42:36Bill Simmons?

  Never heard that word before. That's, I'm scared.

• 1:42:39Speaker 01

  Would history, would history prove that that doesn't get off his game?

• 1:42:44Speaker 02

  Well, maybe, but it's our only shot now. Okay. We're gonna, cause he's not gonna stop. So we're probably gonna have to send somebody to him, get somebody, distract him in some kind of way. It's Los Angeles. There's a lot of people that we can, we can send waves and waves. He might not be deep. We might tighten the rotation on the court, but as far as the rotation in Los Angeles of ways we can send right to them DMs to get Ant's mind off of the game. Sweet deep. We.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Maybe, but I mean, he is prepared for the double team. We saw that in the fourth quarter.

• 1:43:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:19Bill Simmons?

  Double, triple.

• 1:43:20Speaker 02

  Maybe a different type of double team we'll throw at him this night. We'll see. It's the only thing we can do.

• 1:43:24Bill Simmons?

  Can I read you the weirdest stat of this game? Luka Doncic, 38 points, 45 minutes, one rebound, two assists.

• 1:43:35Speaker 01

  That's a low number.

• 1:43:37Bill Simmons?

  It's a Cam Thomas game. What is happening? And LeBron puts up 12 rebounds, eight assists.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:43:45Bill Simmons?

  Whatever this version of LeBron is, is just, I talked about it a few days ago. It's this new version he's just created now where he's like a hybrid of nine different versions of him for the past. The stuff he is doing on defense, he's just stripping dudes. He's protecting the rim. He's moving his feet on defense and blocking passing. He hasn't played defense like this, I don't think, since 2020, personally. Am I wrong, Russillo?

• 1:44:10Speaker 01

  Well, there was a stretch at the beginning of the season, I was like, okay, this is like bad.

• 1:44:15Bill Simmons?

  We were saying he was a DH.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was a Denver regular season game where they had him, he was the low man and they just were like, we're gonna run this thing and the off ball guy's gonna dive down and LeBron's just not even gonna bother coming over. And I'm thinking to myself, like, you can't possibly pour the fake switch out of the closer like after he was supposed to go contest to the corner. He'd like do a thing where he'd go box out a guy that was next to him and then be pointing. It's like, dude, there's no possible way you thought that I was gonna go over there. Then he came back and I remember there was a Memphis game where I was like, holy shit. Like what, like LeBron is completely engaged. It's great. So, yeah, this is, I, I, I think a lot of the really great plays tonight were right at him.

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  You know, the DiVincenzo drive where they come out of a timeout and you're like, DiVincenzo, one on one against LeBron. The problem is DiVincenzo's trying that fucking shot. Like that guy's never had anybody one on one thinking he's not gonna make it.

• 1:45:11Bill Simmons?

  The falling away from the basket, lefty floater layup, right at a guy.

• 1:45:15Speaker 01

  It was a high degree of difficulty, I'll give him that. And then DiVincenzo on the strip play that got overturned and credit to LeBron and the Laker staff, because LeBron and the assistant looked at each other and they were basically like, yeah, you fouled him. Like, this is gonna get overturned.

• 1:45:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  DiVincenzo gave Ant a grenade. Like, did you see what they did there? Like, DiVincenzo ended up getting free. And at that point, that might've been the first time I've ever seen that guy without the confidence to go, it's double D time.

• 1:45:42Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:45:43Speaker 01

  Cause he gave it back to him.

• 1:45:43Bill Simmons?

  Ain't it a crazy, I just want to be involved in this place so badly, I'm gonna do a delayed cut behind you like a trailer?

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 1:45:51Bill Simmons?

  Just hoping. It was almost like a, like a wide receiver hoping for a lateral.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  It was like a lateral.

• 1:45:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And he flipped it back to him.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  You're right about game five. No, I need to jump in here because I need to ask Conspiracy Bill a question.

• 1:46:03Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  Cause the first thing I thought of when I was like three one, I was like this.

• 1:46:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, we're both gonna be there. Yeah, I knew you go to every Laker game now. You're the new Diane Cannon. I'm gonna go on Tuesday.

• 1:46:12Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:46:12Bill Simmons?

  Cause I love basketball. Russillo's there. Since they got Luca, Russillo's, he's there.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  A fixture.

• 1:46:18Bill Simmons?

  Wearing a Slovenian baseball jacket. He's, he's all in.

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  It's funny because I've, I've made it as a cool halftime lounge and then one night I didn't have, I wasn't invited with the high end people. I was just a commoner. And I hit up somebody. It was like, hey, can I go, uh, can I just make sure I get that? Cause somebody wanted to say hi.

• 1:46:36Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  They were like, are you out of your fucking mind? You're just asking for a bracelet to the cool halftime thing? Like you have to be invited, sir.

• 1:46:43Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 1:46:44Bill Simmons?

  I was like, Taylor Sheridan's in there? He wants to talk about 1944?

• 1:46:48Speaker 02

  Russillo, but that, I, I'd be 1944. Russillo, that's a positive though. Like, you know. So you know where you stand and let me tell you what I mean. I have a theory, right? Cause they have all these private members clubs in LA.

• 1:47:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:04Speaker 02

  The question is, who's famous enough just to show up at the Soho House? And not being a member and just get let up? Like Will Smith is probably not a member of the Soho House, right? But if he shows up there and goes, hey, I wanna check it out.

• 1:47:17Bill Simmons?

  Example, I think. I think anyone can get in the Soho House.

• 1:47:19Speaker 02

  Whatever.

• 1:47:20Speaker 01

  I think I did once.

• 1:47:20Speaker 02

  Bungalows, whatever. Like you, you go there, they'll, they're gonna let you right up, right?

• 1:47:24Bill Simmons?

  Kevin Hart just walks in. They're like, hey, it's Kevin Hart, come on in. Yeah.

• 1:47:27Speaker 02

  What, gonna let you right up. Now you know that you're not quite there yet as far as all privileges, Ryen Russillo, face card, it's me, let me up. But that just makes, that's drive to get there.

• 1:47:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're right, you're right there.

• 1:47:42Speaker 02

  You're right there, Ryan.

• 1:47:44Bill Simmons?

  Like in the Laker series right now. You're one win away.

• 1:47:47Speaker 02

  You're, and if they see you in the lounge a couple of more times, you're hanging out with Taylor Sheridan and it's you, it's Jessica Alba, it's the whole deal.

• 1:47:54Bill Simmons?

  Kings game, I think you're in. I think you go to any Kings Oilers game, they're just like, boom.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, Kovačić's brother, he let me in once. He's a huge fan of the Pogs.

• 1:48:03Bill Simmons?

  You'll know somebody from, from the Bay. It was just the way it happens. Van, I have a question.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  This is all really good. Thanks, guys.

• 1:48:10Bill Simmons?

  You're welcome.

• 1:48:12Bill Simmons?

  Man, uh, is the league ready for Anthony Edwards to be the face of the league?

• 1:48:18Speaker 02

  Hell, no. No. No, not at all.

• 1:48:22Bill Simmons?

  Is there any reason?

• 1:48:24Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, he, he's too real for TV. I love him.

• 1:48:30Bill Simmons?

  Have they had, you think they've had meetings about this? Been like, what happens if this happens?

• 1:48:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, they might have tried. He, I, he's, he's probably my favorite basketball player since Kobe.

• 1:48:42Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:48:43Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm telling you, I, I love him. I love the realness.

• 1:48:46Bill Simmons?

  I really do too. I, I fucking love him.

• 1:48:49Speaker 02

  Like, I love the fact that even the shit that happens off of the court, with some of it is really fucked up and stupid, and like, just really stupid. But even that, he just doesn't let, let it bother him. Even when he kind of looks like an asshole or something, he just doesn't let it bother him. He doesn't let it bother him. Um, and there's something to be said for someone who is not hung up on every single, single opinion that people have about him on social media. He's a hooper and a dude. I would say something else, but I'm in mixed company. But it, it, it, it just.

• 1:49:27Bill Simmons?

  I think you could say it.

• 1:49:28Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, just, just a hooper and a, and a, and a, and a dude. And so I dig that. You know, it hurts watching him do it to the Lakers, but I, I like him. But no, they are not ready for Anthony Edwards to be the guy that they're building their league around. They're not ready yet.

• 1:49:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, I think he's ready. Cause you go through that. Think about this gauntlet, Russillo. If he can finish off the Lakers, he's finishing off LeBron and Luca, who are now on the same team. Then you would go next round, Steph, Draymond, Warriors. And that's before you even get to the third round.

• 1:50:02Speaker 01

  Or, or a men Thompson, Van Vliet.

• 1:50:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm just saying, if, if it's the Warriors, you'd be, you'd be going through two of the league's icons back to back before you even got to the 68 win, uh, OKC team that just swept Memphis. It is now 72 and 14 on the season. It's gone. And then the Celtics or somebody else waiting.

• 1:50:23Speaker 01

  He went Durant, Jokic last year.

• 1:50:26Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:50:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:28Bill Simmons?

  But these are that, they, we're now in the icon territory though, especially.

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  Sure, but it's been not a year and I still can't believe they beat Denver in Denver game seven the way they did.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  I can't believe that. That to me is still one of like the most unlikely. Uh, I think all this stuff's accurate. I, I have no pushback or further commentary, but I still have to ask Conspiracy Bill this question.

• 1:50:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:50Speaker 01

  Because during game two, when you were like, the Lakers are going to be called for a million fouls. They're going to even the series. And I, I think I pushed back on some of that stuff with you. And then when I was watching the games, like Bill was right. Bill was right.

• 1:51:02Bill Simmons?

  But the thing. Yeah, everybody had four fouls and like the five minute mark of the third quarter.

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  Right, but more free throw attempts from Minnesota. So you'd have to think that people would love for the series to be two, two. They had a chance to just not overturn that call. Is it too obvious with the Skyhawk cam from above? It just, they couldn't, they couldn't do it.

• 1:51:22Bill Simmons?

  I'm surprised. How did they not cut the feed of the sky cam? It's like, ah, it's not working.

• 1:51:33Bill Simmons?

  I, I will say this would be a very tough game for, uh, for Minnesota on Wednesday. Cause also the LA, like the crowd's good and the crowd, the crowd does affect the refs a little bit, you know? And you have LeBron and Luca, who are the two of the better ref workers, you know, as the game goes on and you combine that with the fans.

• 1:51:52Speaker 02

  That, that's so funny that you think that. I think Luca's terrible at it. I think.

• 1:51:57Bill Simmons?

  He's annoying though. Is he bad or good at it? He's just so annoying about it.

• 1:52:00Speaker 02

  And like he's, he's it, it to have to watch like Luca, to be a Lakers fan and have Luca come here. The one thing I hate is bitching more than anything. I hate bitching, which is crazy because I'm one of the world's leading bitchers. But, but I, I hate it when other people do it, right?

• 1:52:19Speaker 01

  Tremendous self-awareness though, man.

• 1:52:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I like it.

• 1:52:21Speaker 02

  It is what it is. Uh, but I hate it when other people do it. So I, I don't think that Luca works, works the rest very well. I do think the Lakers will win and then I think they will be smacked in game six. I don't think game six will be very close.

• 1:52:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, I'll tell you.

• 1:52:34Speaker 01

  You want to give me, you want to give me a guess the line, Bill? You want to guess the line?

• 1:52:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I haven't looked yet. Uh, I would say Lakers by two and a half for, uh, game five.

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  Minus two and a half?

• 1:52:44Bill Simmons?

  Minus two and a half Lakers.

• 1:52:46Speaker 01

  It's minus five and a half. It's the same line as game two.

• 1:52:49Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:50Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  So they're with you. Like it feels.

• 1:52:53Bill Simmons?

  But that's three days from now, right? It's Wednesday night?

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  I know, but I saw, like, I just felt like with the matchup, if you could get five and a half with Minnesota, you had to do it. But then history has also told us that the game one home loser wins game two. I think, leading up to the last time I said it, the team that lost home game one was 19 and four in game twos and won 15 and 19 by double digits. I don't know what the game five down 3-1 history is for a team that's still.

• 1:53:19Bill Simmons?

  The series line is, did you look? Cause I just looked.

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  I didn't.

• 1:53:24Bill Simmons?

  T Wolves are minus 500. Lakers are plus 385.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  You, you sound like you have way more Lakers hope in you than I, than I imagined.

• 1:53:34Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't say it's hope. I just think when you have two guys that can put up points like that, I think it's different. Like if Orlando, we're taping this as Celtics game as that. Like if Orlando goes down 3-1, like they can't score. They have real issues. Like it'd be really hard to put together three wins. I think it's a little similar to what had to happen for them in 2016. When they had LeBron and Kyrie, they fell down 3-1. The league did the ridiculous technical on Draymond that ends up getting him suspended, which is still the worst thing, the worst league decision of this century. But then those guys just went off the next two games. Remember LeBron and Kyrie? That would be my fear if I'm Minnesota. Like, how do we make sure those guys don't combine for 80 points? And LeBron, I guess, is just not going to get tired at all during this playoffs.

• 1:54:18Bill Simmons?

  It's, it's, uh, you can't count on like, oh, he's old. This would be an old legs game for him. He's just not, not having them. So, um, let's, uh, let's take a quick break and then we'll talk about the draft. This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun?

• 1:55:03Bill Simmons?

  Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. 1, 2, 3 Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. The draft. Russillo was just in his house yesterday with the McShay crew, breaking it down for two hours. Sanders dropping all the way down to the Browns, hijacked the draft in a lot of ways. It hijacked, it hijacked my text with Van Lathan.

• 1:55:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:55:45Bill Simmons?

  It, uh, it ended up in a really, really weird goofy place where Cleveland passes on him. It felt like 20 times. And then finally took him and they cut to the war room and nobody in the war room seemed like remotely excited about it. So it almost made you wonder if it was an owner decision. But I, wait, instead of talking about the, oh, how could this have, blah, blah, blah? Like, there's a bigger picture question of when this happens, why does it happen? So you have some thoughts, man?

• 1:56:16Speaker 02

  Um, you mean the Shador Sanders situation? Yeah.

• 1:56:18Bill Simmons?

  When, when somebody drops like this and it's all for the, there's the sports talk reasons for it. And then there's the actual reasons. So let's have the conversation.

• 1:56:26Speaker 02

  So I had a guy, um, a, a very high up football guy hit me. And when he heard me on your pod the last time after day one. And it, it was interesting, the way he put it, I'm going to read this. He goes, on Shador, he's never been graded that high by the scouts, which is something that I don't think a lot of people are paying that much attention to. When you hear about Shador Sanders, you hear about media assessments. He goes, he was a creation of the media, but mostly a creation, uh, of the machine built in Boulder. Then you have to ask yourself with the organization, do you want to deal with his father criticizing your staff every week from his CU press conference? If you're backup, um, and, and if you're the, if you're, if he's the backup and your starter has

• 1:57:07Speaker 02

  A bad week, do you want to have to respond to what's being said a thousand miles away? It's a lot of baggage that's surrounding an average player. So I think people are trying to make it either or. They're trying to make it a completely cultural thing or a completely football thing. When really what I'm hearing from people that are involved in the NFL, that it's a combination of the two. That if Shador Sanders were more of a can't miss prospect, then you probably wouldn't have be having a lot of the conversations around him that you're having. But if he's just average or just good, I mean, not transcendent, just average or just good. Then the things that come along with it, and we can't act like that there's not gonna be more scrutiny, scrutiny with drafting him.

• 1:57:52Speaker 02

  There just is.

• 1:57:54Bill Simmons?

  Hula blue.

• 1:57:56Speaker 02

  Hula blue. Um, and a lot of people, it scared them off. Um, and so, look, I think there are a lot of people that are gonna take what happened with Shador. And they're gonna use it for their own interests, whatever agenda that they have. I think that Shador Sanders is a much better quarterback than a fifth round quarterback. But also, I'm not an NFL scout. I'm a guy that watched him in college and I'm starting to realize that a lot of these guys don't care about that. They really don't care about your college tape. The assessment that they do of you starts, it's partly because of what you did in college. But then it's really the measurables and the stuff that they get and all different types of things that they're watching, um, beyond that.

• 1:58:38Speaker 02

  So I don't know, we're gonna have a lot of conversations about this, but I, I think there's a lot of stuff going on.

• 1:58:44Bill Simmons?

  That's my guy, Will Campbell, who you told me dominated everybody for the entire time he was at LSU. And then did the measurements and he, his arms were an inch short. So then it's like, I don't know, he might be a guard, but you told me nobody got by him ever at LSU.

• 1:59:00Speaker 02

  He was the best pass blocker I've seen at LSU in years. Maybe ever in terms of just a guy that just, I mean, we, we didn't run the ball that well. I mean, we had some problems in the interior line and all of that stuff. But Will went up against the most athletic, determined, uh, pass rushers in the country. When you talk about SEC pass rushers and they just simply couldn't get around him, couldn't get to his quarterback. But when it came out, they looked at the measurables and they're like, oh my God, maybe I have to, we have to move this guy around. So, you know.

• 1:59:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's like, like when Russel and I talk, we do, we love the NBA draft stuff. We did the redraftables and it's so fun to see like why, how teams miss on guys. Right? Like Brunson was somebody we all liked in college and then he goes through the process and it's like, ah, he's too short. What is he? Is he a two guard? And then he falls to like 32 and it seems stupid. With Sanders, he's clearly not a fifth round pick. But I do understand, like, here's an example, like Jacksonville, right? Jacksonville is not very good. They took Hunter already, who he played with. They have Lawrence who we're not positive Lawrence is ever going to make it as like a real guy who's going to win playoff games. And we get to the fourth round with Jacksonville and it's like, this seems like a logical candidate to be like, you know what? Fuck it. We're going to take Shador Sanders.

• 2:00:12Bill Simmons?

  Let's say, and we'll have, but here's, why can't you do that for Jacksonville? Because the moment you do that, everybody's like, oh man, uh oh. Could he take Lawrence's job? And then the moment Lawrence has three picks in week two, then it becomes, should Shador play? Should he get a shot? And Russel, I just don't think, I think there's like 20 teams that are just like, we don't want to deal with this. We don't want to deal with all the, should he play, should he not play? We'd rather just take this other guy.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  And unless you're a first rounder who you feel like needs a little seasoning, for the most part, NFL coaching staffs want backup quarterbacks to be seen and not heard. And this has never been a sport that wants free thinkers. Like the early Belichick stuff was great because he just immediately had Brady brainwashed. And then everybody kind of followed the lead and then Bruski was like totally into it. And it was just like, you're not, he didn't come to Foxborough to be a free thinker. Ask why. It's like, this is what we're gonna do and go ahead and execute it. So

• 2:01:08Bill Simmons?

  It's like the army.

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  The Shador tape, I'll tell you what, this is a lesson in just the group think when it comes to mock drafts. Like I'd gotten the speech years and years ago from an NBA GM just going at the drafts would be so different. And he's obviously an NBA GM because draft would be so different if there were no mocks. He's like, but eventually you start like letting the mock break your own tie. Because you're like, well, if I do this, and I get it wrong, everybody's gonna think I'm stupid. But if I take this guy, like, it is kind of crazy too. Like, you'll see somebody who's projected to go 13th in the first round of the NFL or NBA. And then if he goes eighth, it's like, holy shit, are those guys dumb?

• 2:01:45Speaker 01

  And it's just, I mean, especially the NFL side of it. It's like, I don't know, like, it's that big of a reach because I took a guy six spots higher than all the stuff that you keep reading over and over again. Where the other thing that happens with all these mocks is everybody kind of ends up just looking at everybody else's and goes, I don't want to seem like a complete wild card with all this. However, having said that, I've never seen anything like this. Right, Belichick.

• 2:02:05Bill Simmons?

  Belichick was the only one. It was like, I like Cole Strange. He didn't look at a single bar. I just like him.

• 2:02:10Speaker 01

  We're not gonna talk about that.

• 2:02:13Speaker 01

  I

• 2:02:15Speaker 01

  I think this is the most dramatic thing that I've ever seen from this, but after the combine, two teams that have high picks that you could argue could have been in on a quarterback, met with Shador, and they were like, absolutely not. We've heard the Giants story with Brian Daboll and him getting into it. So, look, if he was special, okay, if he truly was special, but the mocks had us believing he was special, the mocks had probably him believing he was special. His father had him believing was special, which was really nice. His dad was there to support him the entire time. But it feels like he went into this, he went into this thinking like, I don't have to say shit to you guys. And these guys looked at the film saying, your film is like average. And now you come in here with this entitlement, like, it's just not gonna work.

• 2:02:56Speaker 01

  Like, that's just not the way an NFL locker room would ever, they would never sign up for something for somebody that they think is fairly replaceable. May never even be, I mean, look, there's plenty of first rounders that are gonna completely whiff. So, uh, I feel bad in the sense that I don't, you know, again, I don't, he shouldn't have been a fifth-rounder. So I could be really mean about this and say, hey, he brought it all on himself. I think it also proves that Deion has zero relationships with decision-makers in the NFL. No agent, hey, we're doing it our way. It's going to be non-traditional. I don't know if the league decided to punish him for it. I think a lot of people just said, hey, I don't, I don't know that I want this. I don't know that I want this in my QB room if he's not really, really special. And I think everybody kind of agreed on that without it being collusion.

• 2:03:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think Deion is beloved by the media and rightly so. He's been a major star for the last 30-plus years. As far as the football culture, decision-maker guys, I don't know if that, those relationships and sort of how he's revered, if that carries on there. I think that we're probably all seeing that now. I will say this, though. Remember back when, when, when we was, we was on the bus one time? And this girl had tried to holler at this guy. We was in high school and he didn't like it. And then he went around to everybody in school being like, hey, man, Tuch tried to holler at me. Tuch tried to holler at me. Tuch tried to holler at me.

• 2:04:24Speaker 02

  And after a while, we, we started asking him like, why are you telling all of us that she tried to holler at you? Like, why, why is it getting around the whole school that you don't like her? The thing that I was struck by with Shador Sanders, with Shador Sanders is the amount of negative experiences and highlighting every single negative thing that was wrong with him. Got to a fever pitch in a way that I don't remember seeing. And I think the question is like, why is that happening? Was that happening because Shador Sanders was such a notable and forward-facing athlete? Was that backlash from all of, you know, the rapping and the, the, the, the chains and all of that stuff?

• 2:05:07Speaker 02

  Was that a referendum on Deion? But it did turn negative in a way to where we're hearing, well, I looked up all of the old interviews, the interview stories that we've heard of. And typically when we hear an interview story from the draft, we've heard about bad interviews. We hear about bad interviews. We normally hear about bad questions from from franchises. We hear about somebody asking you if you're gay or somebody asking you about something with your mom or somebody asking you that. We don't hear really about how a a prospect with an interview as much as we've heard about this bad interview with the Giants. And I can't put my head around why that is. Either that's people uh saying that, okay,

• 2:05:52Speaker 02

  he's a fifth round talent or or a second or third round talent and he did terrible in this interview. Let's let's let us explain, let us quell the outrage and explain why he's not being drafted. Or there was some kind of hate for the kid that in some way they didn't have for other prospects based upon something outside of his control, other than, you know, how he he acts and carries himself.

• 2:06:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, you also have probably 10, 11 teams total are going to be in the pool to take him. And then individually, each team talked themselves out of him for whatever reason. The most surprising being Pittsburgh. But I do wonder, is a piece of this you draft, like you have the coach as one of the people in the decision making room in every room, right? You know, if you draft him, I I think was one of the reports, I think Schefter said this. So he reported like, there's a coach that would be worried that the moment you bring this guy in, it's going to be just nonstop. Dion's going to replace. He's going to be the next coach. He's going to coach this kid. And I do, we know that coaches can sabotage this shit shit in subtle ways. But Russell, the only bad interview, we've heard some bad interview stories with the NBA stuff.

• 2:07:00Bill Simmons?

  The only one I remember hearing was the LaMelo one when when um when team the teams thought he tanked the interview because he wanted to go somewhere else. That, other than that, I don't. Do you remember many interview stuff with NBA teams?

• 2:07:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. Like, I don't know, I'll just pick a name out of a hat or because I go to the combine. Like I'd heard Jake Laravia wasn't the greatest hang in a meeting. All right. Went in the first round. Guess what? Nobody gives a shit about Jake Laravia's sit down with a team because it's Jake Laravia, right? It's Shador. And so I understand, Dan, your point. Like, we talked about this at such a level that it felt uncommon, but I do think.

• 2:07:44Speaker 01

  If you're on it every year, like I'll hear from McShay over the years, be like, hey, what happened to that guy? Be like, oh, he sucked. He sucked in his interview. He sucked on the whiteboard. Like, he was totally lost. I don't know that anybody ever cared enough for us to talk about it as much as we are with Shador, because, you know, it's, it's, I don't know, like, I want to ask you this question. I kind of want to ask you this question because I know that, like, we'll see what happens Monday on the TV shows and everything, but race became a topic with this thing. And I get, and I always feel like, all right, when I see the guys arguing that it isn't about race, a lot of times that I guys, the guys have seen it doing it, I'm like, oh, shit, I don't want to be like aligned with that guy. But if there's

• 2:08:25Speaker 01

  one field that I feel pretty comfortable talking about, it's sports, right? I think that NBA and NFL decision makers are probably the most forward thinking of like, hey, if you can play and you can help my team, like, this is how I'm going to evaluate you. So I'd ask, is there, is there ever a chance that with Shador, it can be about Shador and not about a race?

• 2:08:50Speaker 02

  Um, so, okay, so a lot of people say race and they mean culture, right?

• 2:08:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, correct me where I need to be corrected.

• 2:08:59Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, I'm not talking about you. So a lot of people say race and they mean culture, right? It would be, it would be silly to look at the draft after a quarter, a black quarterback went number one and went NFL owners are, they don't want to draft black players, right? That's not the, but there is a thought that there is a specific type of black player or black man that is a specific affront to power structures. And that's someone who doesn't walk in and isn't artificially humble, who doesn't walk in and doesn't mute

• 2:09:40Speaker 02

  himself, is big in a room, and is lighting up a room, and knows that he has it. That there's a specific feeling from some people that that guy has to be broken down and cut down a peg, right? Um, it's interesting, when I, when I was listening, when I was watching Shador Sanders, I was thinking about Adrian Broner, and a lot of people aren't going to be able to make this, this connection. Adrian Broner is a legitimate four weight world champion, like a legitimate boxing achiever.

• 2:10:10Speaker 02

  However, in order for him to carry the type of bravado that he did with him, he would have had to have been perfect. If you're gonna be floored, or if you're gonna be Ali, or if you're gonna be Deion Sanders, you can almost never lose. You have to be perfect. Because if you are not perfect, and you have that type of confidence, and that type of bravado, and that type of oomph with you, then they will cut you down. And so when people are saying race, they're talking about black man. They're saying black man. But they're not really talking about black men. They're talking about one specific type of black man. And it's the type that they seem to always wanna go at when they're trying to make an example of someone. Now, I'm not necessarily saying

• 2:10:54Speaker 02

  that that's what's happening with Shador Sanders. But there's an uncomfortability and attention there because of what we've seen happen to athletes like this in the past. Now, if you got the goods, it don't matter. Right? Because all of the guys I was just talking about, Deion, Ali, whomever you wanna name. And if you got the goods, it don't matter. But it does kinda seem like sometimes they want you to, if you're black, they want you to be great. They want you to be amazing, but they don't want you to put it in their face. You know what I mean? Um, but once again-

• 2:11:28Bill Simmons?

  But how much, how much of that has to do with the position he plays? And what people seem to expect from the quarterback position? When you're talking about leadership, charisma, calming force, guy who lifts up your teammates. And they're looking at him and it's like, if this guy's gonna carry himself a certain way, but doesn't have the talent to back it up, it's almost like counterproductive.

• 2:11:49Speaker 02

  The second part is, the second part is the entire part of it, right? Because, you know, I'm a huge LSU fan. Nobody had more swagger than my vanilla champion, Joe Burrow. Nobody had more swagger. We smoking cigars, we this, we flipping the ball, we boom, boom, boom, boom, the whole thing.

• 2:12:07Speaker 01

  By the way, I saw him, saw him at the Lakers game in person.

• 2:12:12Speaker 02

  Beautiful.

• 2:12:13Speaker 01

  Stunning.

• 2:12:15Speaker 02

  But we also threw 60 touchdowns, right? We threw 60 touchdowns. We won the Heisman. We got to the league. We, I don't know, I've never met the dude. We, he took a team to the Super Bowl.

• 2:12:25Bill Simmons?

  I'm, I'm pro way.

• 2:12:26Speaker 02

  So, so that's the whole deal. So there's two parts of it. The first part of it, I think a lot of people, two people, the conversation is this. Is he good enough to comport himself in the way that he does? That's the first question. The second question is, does he have to be? Can't he just be confident about himself? Can't he just be happy to be Shador Sanders? Can't he just be, he ain't never been in no trouble? He ain't never, does he have to be as excellent as people would want him to be? In order to, to be as big as he wants to be?

• 2:13:00Bill Simmons?

  You know what it reminds me of a little bit? I'm gonna do something really dangerous. I'm gonna use a cross racial comparison.

• 2:13:06Speaker 02

  Oh, Jesus.

• 2:13:07Bill Simmons?

  Cause I'm a veteran.

• 2:13:08Speaker 02

  Here we go.

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  You're not gonna say Marshall Henderson, are you?

• 2:13:12Speaker 02

  Oh shit. Ole Miss? See?

• 2:13:15Bill Simmons?

  I wasn't gonna do that.

• 2:13:16Speaker 02

  That's what I'm talking about. Do you know this? Do you know, do you know that guy?

• 2:13:20Bill Simmons?

  Personally?

• 2:13:21Speaker 02

  No, I'm talking about Bill. Do you know who he's talking about?

• 2:13:23Bill Simmons?

  I know the name. I don't know that. I don't get the reference.

• 2:13:26Speaker 02

  That was my favorite white for many years. Like, did you, right, bro, for Ole Miss had a, see, see? See, for Ole Miss had like a checkered story, had been to a Juco or whatever, whatever, or been to a different school. Just used to come to Ole, well, shoot, 39% would score like, would, would score like 35? And flip off everybody in the crowd. I loved that guy. I can't believe you just pulled that name.

• 2:13:54Bill Simmons?

  I was, I was gonna say Adam Morrison, and here's why.

• 2:13:57Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:13:59Bill Simmons?

  Cause he had that really fun college season that everybody enjoyed. Then he flamed out in the, in the, in the tournament and he cried on the court. And it became a thing. And then it was, he became one of the most polarizing prospects in a while. And some people were like, that guy's not athletic enough to be a starting small forward in the NBA and be able to score. And other people were like, you gotta look at his history. Look at the college. Look at all the stuff, the big game and all the carrying a team, all the same stuff. And then Charlotte ended up taking him third. Like they bought into it and he was a bust. But it's the same kind of thing where the fans are seeing one thing because they're like. No, no, no, no. He did this and I watched this game in Gonzaga. We had 38, which is a little like watching Colorado on a Saturday night and be like, no, no, that game,

• 2:14:42Bill Simmons?

  the 53 52 game. And he was awesome. And then all the diehard NFL people were like, he doesn't have it. It's barely a starter. Best case scenario, Teddy Bridgewater, maybe Andy Dalton. And it just didn't jibe with what I think the general public saw, right? Am I crazy?

• 2:15:01Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I think the public, I think it feels like it was the public. Was it the media? Was it also the Sanders family? Like, did everybody

• 2:15:11Bill Simmons?

  The Deon piece.

• 2:15:11Speaker 01

  Fall into some trap of like, you know, look, I still don't think he should have been a fifth rounder. I don't think he should have gone behind Milrow. I definitely don't think he should have gone behind Dylan Gabriel.

• 2:15:21Bill Simmons?

  How about the 26 year old?

• 2:15:25Bill Simmons?

  You went behind that guy.

• 2:15:26Speaker 01

  Tyler, Tyler Shaw.

• 2:15:27Speaker 02

  Tyler Shaw, yeah.

• 2:15:29Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:15:30Speaker 02

  To the Saints.

• 2:15:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. Some of the football guys really liked Shuck so much during the, the pre-draft process. No, I had Quincy Avery on who works with all these guys at a really young age. And man, Quincy like nailed this dude. Quincy came on the pod, was like, hey, if his name was Shador Williams, he's a six-rounder. And even I was like, well, you know, and I've known Quincy a long time and respect the hell out of it. But like, I got done with that pod and I was like, he hates, he fucking hates that dude. Like, that's what I was thinking. I don't know that anybody nailed it the way he, maybe there's other people.

• 2:16:02Speaker 02

  Delanie Walker had it pretty good, too.

• 2:16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he did, too. He did, too. Yeah, right. Titans, tight end there. So I guess, you know what I would say? And like, sometimes I feel like it should be good news that it may have just been a football evaluation. Like, what if it was just about this football tape? And what if in his job interviews, he just didn't do a very good job? Like, wouldn't that be better news if that's what it was? And then sometimes I, I just like, I see some of the comps, like, oh, Eli Manning. It's like, yeah, I don't know. Arch called his shot and he got away with it. And Eli was this consensus number one fucking pick.

• 2:16:40Bill Simmons?

  Right. Everybody thought he was good.

• 2:16:42Speaker 01

  There's no, no one can compare Eli, the prospect, to even if the mock screwed up the Shador thing.

• 2:16:48Bill Simmons?

  And Colin Howard, our friend Colin, who had the, what was the Pittsburgh trade? TJ Watt?

• 2:16:54Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 2:16:54Bill Simmons?

  Somebody else.

• 2:16:55Speaker 01

  Don't do it to our guy. He's got the Ben Simmons look.

• 2:16:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a bad one.

• 2:17:02Speaker 02

  It's okay, LeBron. It's okay.

• 2:17:05Speaker 01

  Hey.

• 2:17:05Speaker 02

  Ben Simmons is here.

• 2:17:07Speaker 01

  Be nice to my guard.

• 2:17:07Speaker 02

  I love him, I love him, I love him. Um, so this is why I say, fir- first of all, I'm one of those weird people that talking about this stuff just doesn't make me angry, right? Because even if it's not the thing, or if it is the thing, it, it doesn't hurt us, or there's no skin off our neck from just talking about it, right? Like investigating the culture, investigating the things that might be undergirding these topics, whatever, just don't be so precious about it. Talk about it, whether it is or whether it's not. I think we're probably learning in a real way that the NFL minds just weren't as high on Shador Sanders as a football player as the rest of us were. And, and that's a real thing, right? That's a, that, that can't be denied.

• 2:17:47Speaker 01

  I think that's the one part of this that cannot be debated. It doesn't mean it's the only part of it, but it feels like a pretty significant part of it.

• 2:17:53Bill Simmons?

  Can I add one piece to that? It doesn't seem like anybody thought he was a definite starting quarterback. Because we know this because the Steelers, who literally don't have a quarterback, were like, yeah, even we don't think he's a quarterback. But it also seems like teams were a little worried that he'd be a good backup, which is the whole point if you're taking a quarterback. You want somebody who can be the backup, he's in the room, maybe he can play, maybe he has the upside to be a starter, but he's just gonna be able to fit in. And as Russell said earlier, you don't really want to hear from this guy that much. He's gonna be on the bench with the headset, telling him what to play. And obviously, teams felt like even that seemed like a tall task for him. Cleveland ends up taking him, they have the weirdest quarterback room, I think, in the history of football.

• 2:18:38Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if you've seen the list.

• 2:18:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:40Bill Simmons?

  It's like, i- it's just bonkers, but.

• 2:18:44Speaker 02

  Really, the circus is only beginning, because now, out of him and Dylan Gabriel, I mean, one of those guys isn't gonna make the team. You know what I mean? Like, well, like, i- it's, one of those guys might be, go to the practice squad.

• 2:18:55Bill Simmons?

  I would say Kenny Pickett, maybe, I hope he's renting an apartment, would be my guess.

• 2:18:58Speaker 01

  Well, they can IR Deshaun, so they can carry the fourth one, because I think.

• 2:19:02Speaker 02

  Right, I guess so, yeah. Yeah.

• 2:19:04Speaker 01

  And I, look, I'm not trying to correct you, I, I'm playing out all the different scenarios, because you could be right, you know?

• 2:19:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:19:10Speaker 01

  There, I think there's some creative math there because I think the Deshaun part of it is to try to get the insurance money. You know, have IR it out for the year and then that way the policy covers.

• 2:19:19Bill Simmons?

  Can we talk about the most important story of the weekend though? The Patriots fucking nailing a draft and getting an A plus on Bleacher Report. We get an A plus.

• 2:19:27Speaker 01

  Is this the only time you've ever liked Bleacher Report?

• 2:19:29Bill Simmons?

  It's the only time I've, I've liked the Patriots draft, I think this century where I've just felt we didn't do one thing that made me go, wait, what happened? Why do we, even Van was like, every time we took an OSU guy, Van was like, I love that guy.

• 2:19:43Speaker 02

  Well, we have, we have, well, first of all, I'm, by the way, people think I'm a homer. I'm very honest when it comes to the LSU players that work and don't work.

• 2:19:48Bill Simmons?

  I know. That's why when you were excited about each guy we took, it made me more excited.

• 2:19:52Speaker 02

  The only guy you guys missed on Mason Taylor, he ends up going to the Jets.

• 2:19:56Bill Simmons?

  I know.

• 2:19:56Speaker 02

  I think he's gonna be a, I think he's gonna be a Jason Witten type security blanket for a quarterback.

• 2:20:01Bill Simmons?

  I think he was on the list. The OSU running back fell to 38, I think. They didn't even interview him. They just took him.

• 2:20:06Speaker 02

  But I am shocked and I hadn't been following it as much because once again, I'm a college ball lover. That's another thing about Shador. I'll just say this before I get, um, like I watched him get annihilated.

• 2:20:21Speaker 01

  Killed.

• 2:20:22Speaker 02

  Not, not miss games because of injuries.

• 2:20:23Speaker 01

  Tough as can be. Tough.

• 2:20:24Speaker 02

  Tough.

• 2:20:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:20:26Speaker 02

  Make throws, stand in there, stare defensive, defenses down and just make plays and make throws. And I'm like, that's what you want out of a QB? I've also watched him like the 98 yard drive to tie the game, but the two minute drill, just, that's what you want in a, in a QB. And I guess, you know, I wasn't seeing the ball rotation right or whatever. Um, but Brayden Swinson from LSU.

• 2:20:52Bill Simmons?

  Fifth round edge rusher. Yeah.

• 2:20:54Speaker 02

  Eight and a half sacks, a legit hell raiser. You guys get him in the fifth round. I have no idea how Brayden Swinson fell to the fifth round.

• 2:21:03Bill Simmons?

  We got a long snapper and a kicker. I'm, my dad was like, I talked to him this morning and usually the first 50 minutes would be like, I don't know what happened in the second round. Why we took that guy there who's coming off the torn ACL or whatever. He was delighted. What was, what was the biggest shock for you, Russo, in the, uh? In the draft in general, is there any, anything that stupefied you?

• 2:21:24Speaker 01

  No, I just want to stay on Swinson here for a second because he or Whit Weeks are the two best players on that defense all year long.

• 2:21:30Bill Simmons?

  Absolutely.

• 2:21:31Speaker 01

  I mean, Swinson, just consistent edge pressure of the edge guys, because Whit plays in the middle. Brayden, just even as the season went on, it just got better and better and better. So I don't know if it's because he's older. I don't know. He didn't run a 40. We were trying to figure it out the other day when we were doing the live show. He may not like normally, hey, I don't want to run a 40 or they couldn't figure out why he hadn't one. I know there's probably some other part of it that I'm missing, but again, fifth round just seemed crazy, but it's also probably the deepest position in the entire draft. I mean, loaded, there's guys going to the third round.

• 2:22:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:04Speaker 01

  I love this draft, kind of like from the beginning of the second round on, of just how many dudes in the second round where I'm like, I love that guy. That's another guy that I love.

• 2:22:13Bill Simmons?

  A ton of running backs, like third, fourth round range.

• 2:22:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:22:16Bill Simmons?

  It was like really deep in certain spots.

• 2:22:18Speaker 01

  I know. I still don't really care. Like I know everybody's on this running back thing because Gentee goes as high as he did and because of Saquon just did what he did for the Eagles. But I think he'd be making a huge mistake now deciding to prioritize all this stuff. So yes, I agree with my friend Van here. Trevion Henderson, you probably thought was going to be a top 10 pick after freshman year, after freshman year.

• 2:22:37Bill Simmons?

  After the first, yeah.

• 2:22:39Speaker 01

  You were like, who is this dude? Because Herb Street was putting a little extra on his name in the beginning because he knew the deal of how special he was when he showed up to Columbus. And I can always, I think I have, I speak pretty fluent Herb Street because I've been listening to him for so long and you know, all the years traveling with those guys as well. And he just was like in awe of him. And then Judkins comes in this year and I actually felt like even though Judkins had the flash, like Trevion was, was still the dude in a way, even if the momentum, you know, dumped off that a little bit, but I love Mason Taylor. And I know it sounds like it's just two LSU fans going at it here.

• 2:23:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:14Speaker 01

  Taylor, they went away from him at LSU because they had NFL wide receivers all over the place. And he is not only fast and huge, he's a fucking baller. Okay? And when he needed to fight and compete and all that kind of stuff, like I didn't have to question. I think if he had been somewhere that didn't have as much wide receiver talent, he was like their desperate third down option. I don't know that there's ever a version of Mason Taylor lasting to the second round, but the tight end class was loaded. I just kind of wish he was, I wish he was Drake Mace target for you, because I don't.

• 2:23:46Bill Simmons?

  I think he was the backup if Henderson wasn't there, to be honest. I think that was, they wanted to get a weapon. They weren't going to take a wide receiver. No, I mean, he went like, what, four picks later, three picks later?

• 2:23:58Speaker 01

  It was a mutual, it was a mutual.

• 2:24:00Speaker 02

  I give Henderson a lot of credit though. I give Henderson a lot of credit because, I give Henderson a lot of credit because uh, he um, the, when they brought in Quinshon Jenkins to split carries with him, I was like, Jesus Christ, what kind of, of a bell cow, bellwether back, like wants another guy? And Jenkins had had some injury problems at Ole Miss and it wasn't quite, but, he, everyone that had watched him in the SCC knew that he could flat out play. But Henderson handled it really, really well, never complained.

• 2:24:35Bill Simmons?

  He was probably psyched he didn't have the extra miles going on him before he went to the NFL. I'd be delighted.

• 2:24:41Speaker 02

  It might have cost him in draft capital though, right? Because the guy had had such an amazing freshman season that if he sticks around a little bit longer and continues to put those numbers up, then you know, maybe he's a, a, a high or mid first-rounder, you know?

• 2:24:54Bill Simmons?

  We, we have to wrap up because I want to watch the Celtics game because right now it's 4:43, but I have to ask you guys this. Should I be worried about Belichick and this girlfriend?

• 2:25:03Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm new, I'm opening my show. I don't even care. It's the NBA playoffs draft recap. I'm starting my Tuesday show. I've got 15 minutes on this.

• 2:25:11Bill Simmons?

  Oh, okay. All right.

• 2:25:12Speaker 01

  Unbelievable. No, no, but go ahead. Give me your thoughts.

• 2:25:15Bill Simmons?

  Well, I, I mean, for me, Belichick's like a family member, you know, it's like, he's like my uncle. He's like, he's just part of the fam. And I feel like this woman is so crazy. Like I, I, I just scared for him.

• 2:25:26Speaker 01

  I want to talk about your timeline with Belichick because, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but after that apple dock, you've never been closer with Belichick. You've gone on the offensive in defense of him. I've noticed that, I know, there's a real tone out of you.

• 2:25:41Bill Simmons?

  I really appreciate him. Listen, did he frustrate me during the draft? Sure. Uh, was he a barrel lobster in the press conferences? Not really. Did we win six Super Bowls? Were we awesome for 20 years? Yeah, I love Belichick and I'm worried about him.

• 2:25:57Speaker 01

  Okay, give us your worries. Give us your concerns.

• 2:25:59Speaker 02

  Cause I'm zagging.

• 2:26:01Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you're zagging. Let me hear the zag before I give my concerns.

• 2:26:04Speaker 02

  Okay. The things that that young woman must be doing to Bill Belichick.

• 2:26:11Speaker 02

  You guys are worried about him.

• 2:26:12Bill Simmons?

  Curling toes.

• 2:26:14Speaker 02

  Like, I'm happy for him. Belichick got ready. It's Bill fucking Belichick. It's Darth Vader in a hoodie. He got, he got ready to answer a question. She said, no, we're not talking about that.

• 2:26:30Bill Simmons?

  And she's using we with everything.

• 2:26:33Speaker 02

  Bill Belichick stood down, turned around and looked like this. Like, like a Stepford Belichick. A step for Belichick. But the stuff she must be doing to Belichick must have his, just blowing his mind. He's got to be happy. He's got to be happy.

• 2:26:52Bill Simmons?

  Only, it reminds me of when Katie Holmes started dating Cruz and we all started getting worried for her. When she started become, when she got Stepford Wives by, by Cruz all of a sudden, it was like, oh no. We gotta save Katie Holmes. I, I just, when that video of her in the high heels, walking on the football field.

• 2:27:09Speaker 01

  But that's, Belichick is Katie Holmes here.

• 2:27:11Bill Simmons?

  Belichick's Katie Holmes.

• 2:27:13Speaker 01

  Okay, right. That's important.

• 2:27:14Bill Simmons?

  That video of her going on the field and ordering people around like she was a party planner at a wedding? And it's like, it's spring scrimmage? What do the people at the school think of this? And did you see that she shut down, somebody was printing Belichick t-shirts and she like shut the account down?

• 2:27:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:31Bill Simmons?

  I, I just, it's not good. I, we've seen a lot of these over the years and this one doesn't feel like it ends that well.

• 2:27:37Speaker 02

  How does it end?

• 2:27:39Bill Simmons?

  I, I, not well.

• 2:27:41Speaker 01

  Breakup?

• 2:27:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, like a breakup.

• 2:27:43Speaker 01

  But they all end.

• 2:27:44Bill Simmons?

  A tell-all book and I just, I just want Belichick to.

• 2:27:47Speaker 01

  They're just roommates.

• 2:27:50Bill Simmons?

  Just want him, I just want him to win some games at UNC. I was looking forward to, you know, I casually root for LSU because I like my friend Van. I was excited to root for UNC. I was actually excited for this college football season. Now I'm worried our guy Belichick is in trouble. Anyway, Van, I'm sure we've been talking-

• 2:28:05Speaker 01

  If I was a UNC booster, I would be worried after this interview. Like, were we dumping our money into-

• 2:28:10Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 2:28:10Speaker 01

  Look, so just one comment on it. Here is Bill, who has never let anybody tell him how it's done.

• 2:28:19Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 2:28:20Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 2:28:20Speaker 02

  Not even Robert Kraft?

• 2:28:21Speaker 01

  Right. Like, if there's one thing we know about this guy is like, I'm doing a team photo, fuck you. Oh, video game? Nah. You know, whatever the petty shit I can do. Oh, that's a new petty thing I can do? I'll do that too. Like-

• 2:28:35Speaker 02

  He would have signed OJ Simpson in 98.

• 2:28:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:28:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:28:39Speaker 01

  Absolutely. It's Patriots way thing because they got rid of one lineman in the late 90s.

• 2:28:46Speaker 01

  For a woman who's 24 to tell him, you know, and this wasn't Panhandle Pete coming up-

• 2:28:51Bill Simmons?

  She's four years older than my daughter.

• 2:28:53Speaker 01

  Right. How'd you meet? Connor Willa, online. You know, this is, she's off to the side, like, you went on fucking CBS. What'd you think this was gonna be?

• 2:29:06Speaker 01

  Some guy from the Worcester Bugle? You know, you went on to promote your book and it's CBS? This isn't after another win to go 11 and 2 on the season and somebody from the fucking Boston Herald's like, "Hey, what were you thinking with that last timeout?" "No, just trying to find a way to compete and win the game."

• 2:29:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, you say he's, he's 72. I would be worried if this was Russillo in his late 40s and it was like, "Did you hear about this girl Russillo's dating?" Yeah, she doesn't get on lift anymore.

• 2:29:36Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm not being too critical of the relationship because there is, there is a scenario, right?

• 2:29:41Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna talk about the ages. I'm talking about the uprooting the life part.

• 2:29:45Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:29:45Bill Simmons?

  With this Belichick, this mystical figure who never seemed like- This would ever happen to him and it's happened.

• 2:29:51Speaker 02

  He was wearing a distressed Navy pullover.

• 2:29:55Speaker 01

  Okay, but that might be in that he may have paid for that, those abrasions.

• 2:29:59Speaker 02

  He was wearing a distressed Navy pullover. Like, I'm telling you, man. It, this is just the beginning of it. Bill Belichick, TikTok is coming. The, the whole situation is coming. Cause she is putting it on his motherfucking ass. That's what's happening right there. Be happy for him.

• 2:30:20Bill Simmons?

  Six time Super Bowl champion Bill Belichick getting it put on his ass. He's gonna have a TikTok.

• 2:30:26Speaker 01

  I hope in the title it says.

• 2:30:28Bill Simmons?

  Dancing videos where he's dancing with his six rings. Like, what is happening? All right. Thanks, guys.

• 2:30:35Speaker 02

  Peace.

• 2:30:37Bill Simmons?

  All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Get How. Thanks to Van. Thanks to Russillo. Don't forget you can watch all the clips from this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel, including the second hour of this podcast, which is also just available by itself as a clip. New rewatchables come on Monday nights. Someone watch over me?

• 2:30:55Bill Simmons?

  Celtic City, last episode, HBO, 9:00 PM, Monday night. And I will see you in this podcast on Tuesday.

• 2:31:16Bill Simmons?

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