Why Giannis Won’t Be a Knick, UFC’s Latest Boom, the Movie Theater Renaissance, Six Stages of Sean Penn, and ‘One Battle After Another’ With Ariel Helwani and Wesley Morris

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ariel Helwani to discuss whether the Knicks could ever land Giannis Antetokounmpo, Alex Pereira’s dominant win at UFC 320, the future of the UFC, and more! (5:22). Then, Wesley Morris joins to talk about people returning to the movie theaters, Sean Penn’s career, and Paul Thomas Anderson’s ‘One Battle After Another’ (01:06:15). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Ariel Helwani and Wesley Morris Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is sponsored by State Farm®. Don’t settle for just any insurance when there’s State Farm. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:30Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by FanDuel Sportsbook. We're also presented by The Ringer Podcast Network. I put up new rewatchables on Monday. It's still Robert Redford Month. We did Jeremiah Johnson. So that is our second. We have two left. Yeah, Redford. And then, uh, then I think we have another theme month in November, so stay tuned for that. Stay tuned on the Prestige TV Podcast. Two more episodes of Task on HBO. And episode five was a real, real, real classic banger. Uh, Joanne Robinson, Rob Mahoney, and I will be breaking down on Sunday nights, episode six, episode seven. Also, our buddies Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald on the watch, also breaking it down if you want double breakdowns. So, there you go.

• 2:14Bill Simmons?

  Check out TheRinger.com. Check out all of our sports culture. Basketball season's starting. Not sure if you heard. What's today's date? Yeah. It's starting in two weeks. Holy macro. I just started doing research and it just feels too soon. I need like another five weeks, but unfortunately I'm gonna have to cram everything into into one week. I watched the entire Monster Ed Gein serial killer Netflix show.

• 2:44Bill Simmons?

  Because I always watch those. I don't know. He was one of the last serial killers. I didn't really know anything about. Really, really grisly show. And there was one night when I watched like two episodes and then fell asleep and I didn't sleep well. So I wouldn't recommend that, but I liked the first six.

• 3:04Bill Simmons?

  I thought it tailed off at the end. Might have tightened it up, but Netflix just doing their thing with serial killers. Just when you think they've run out, there's another person who's murdered 50 people who gets a show.

• 3:17Bill Simmons?

  I don't know why I like these shows.

• 3:20Bill Simmons?

  This one was interesting because they kind of, they they use pop culture and movie villains like the Texas Chainsaw Guy and Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs and Anthony Perkins in Psycho. And they kind of use culture to say how Ed Gein was kind of like patient zero. It's kind of like the Bill James of the sabermetric movement of serial killers. So interesting angle.

• 3:47Bill Simmons?

  But, uh, but it was, I don't know, it kept my interest. I had it on. I don't think I ever fully, I was, Jalen Robinson, I always talk about this with the looking up and down iPad test. If you're doing something like I'm doing emails or I'm

• 4:01Bill Simmons?

  doing research for a podcast or whatever, and then looking up, watching the show and doing this. It's probably like a six out of 10. But, uh, for for me, looking up versus down, whereas like task is like a 10 out of 10 where I'm actually, I put my phone and my iPad down. I'm actually just watching, maybe taking notes. But anyway, Netflix serial killers. They might have to run back Bundy again. It's been like five years since our last Bundy. Anything. They said Lizzie Borden might be the next one for Monster. Don't know a lot about her, so I'll be anxiously waiting for next serial killer on Netflix. Kudos to Netflix, just, uh, just cashing in on those murders.

• 4:44Bill Simmons?

  Trying to think what else I'm watching. Yeah, that's it. That's it for now. Other than a little bit later, we'll be talking about one battle after another with Wesley Morris. But want to talk big picture about movies and Sean Penn. And just something seems to be shifting right now in the movie industry. So Wesley and I talked about that much later. Coming up next, Ara Helwani and I are going to talk about this Yanis Nick stuff and just is, how real is Yanis actually playing on the Knicks? Is it even possible? What would you do if you're him? We're going to talk all the machinations. And Ara is a big Knicks fan, so he has some hardcore thoughts. And then we're going to talk about Pereira Saturday night, reestablished himself. What this means for UFC, this big 2026 UFC year we have coming.

• 5:29Bill Simmons?

  And then we did some Buffalo Bills stuff as well because Ara is a big Bills fan and the Patriots beat them last week. But I still think they're the favorites. We hashed all of it out. Great stuff. Really fun podcast. We're going to take a break, bring in Pearl Jam next. Ara Hulani. This is the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. If you're betting on the NFL, come on. FanDuel is the place to do it. They've got everything. Same game parlays, quick bets for when you want to jump in live your way. So you can set your own lines on just about anything. The app's fast, it's easy to use, and best of all, when you win, you get paid instantly. I've been in Boston, Massachusetts recently. Guess what I did? Used FanDuel. Super fun. Download the FanDuel app or go to fanduel.com/BS to get started.

• 6:12Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus, present in select states, 18 plus in DC, Kentucky and Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 888-79777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.

• 6:52Bill Simmons?

  All right, we are recording this. I swear this is my mistake not having him on last week before Pereira's rematch against Agalha, before Bills-Pats. Ara Huaney is here now. The Patriots beat the Bills. I took nothing away from it. We're gonna talk about it later. I mean, I took a little away, but I, you know, I don't feel like we're on your corner. It's still the Bills division. We're gonna talk about all this stuff later. I'm gonna start with the Knicks, your favorite NBA team. Cause the Yanis story resurfaced today and it's been resurfacing all summer. It keeps being a story. There's a little smoke. It's not like a billowing amount of smoke, but the smoke just keeps popping up, these little puffs.

• 7:34Bill Simmons?

  When you read these stories, do you get excited as a Knicks fan? Like, walk me through your whole mindset, cause you must like this team. They were one of the favorites to win the title.

• 7:43Speaker 04

  Okay, first of all, great to be back. Thank you for having me. I don't believe you for a second, just for the record. You invited me on after your Patriots beat my Bills, and I'm still depressed about it, but it's fine. I'm here. I'm happy to talk about it. We'll be okay. Let's talk about the Knicks.

• 7:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but when did I text you though? I texted you Sunday morning and I was like, I can't believe I blew it. I should have had you on last week. And this was before the Pats game. I did do that.

• 8:05Speaker 04

  You did do that, but you didn't say, oh, let's just do it on Tuesday. Only after the loss by the Bills did you say, hey, wanna come on? Which is fine. I'm always happy. It's an honor to be on and I'm happy. And you did, congrats on your Super Bowl in October, is what I'll say. That's the classic thing. That's the classic thing that everyone loves to say to put people down.

• 8:24Bill Simmons?

  Very dismissive. I like it.

• 8:25Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so I have mixed emotions when I see this because, as you know, historically, people like to use the Knicks for leverage. That's been the move, right? Oh, we're talking to the Knicks. We're going to the Knicks, this and that, and it never happens. The times, they are different now. People actually want to go to the Knicks. You're seeing veterans take smaller deals to go to the Knicks. You're seeing everyone want to talk. About the Knicks and go to the Knicks and play for the Knicks and all this stuff. And so I believe when I read that there is sincerity that Giannis wants to go to the Knicks. And I believe that his time in Milwaukee is coming to an end. And I believe that Giannis is going to play for another team, at least one more team before his career is said and done. Can that team be the Knicks?

• 9:08Speaker 04

  I would be over the moon if it happens in the next year or so. The problem is, I don't see the path to getting there. Before the Bridges trade, I saw a path. Even to a degree before the Cat trade, I saw a path. But now, post Bridges trade, and then post signing Bridges, and then all the other deals that they've done since OG, et cetera. What's the path? They don't have the assets. And, and I like, I could be delusional Knicks fan here and say, oh, of course, they could trade Cat for the, that was the talk over the summer. I just don't know if Milwaukee does that. So I try not to get too excited about this.

• 9:44Bill Simmons?

  So I was gonna do something before you came on, and I thought it'd just be more fun to talk with you. I completely agree with there's no path. And it's the part that's not getting kind of mentioned and reported enough. I don't think people understand how prohibitive these apron, these first apron, second apron. The Knicks are hard capped under the second apron. But it also really, really hurts them from like, they can't take a player in a trade that's more money than they're getting out. Like, they can aggregate players. They could trade Karl-Anthony Towns and Myles McBride, who make more money than Giannis. They could technically do a trade like that. But I think what people don't realize is they don't have any picks, right? They already gave away all of those.

• 10:28Bill Simmons?

  The only real way to do a trade that could at least make the Bucks go, huh? Would be Towns with Ananobi. And then you take back Kuzma and Portis with Giannis. And that kind of works with the money. I have no idea why Milwaukee would do that. Milwaukee doesn't have their picks for the, they're either, the picks are gone or they have swaps for the next five years. If you're Milwaukee, why wouldn't you just keep Giannis, one of the best players in the league? Over being like, all right, fine, we'll trade you and we'll just cripple ourselves for the next half decade. The Knicks don't have anything offered. They made their moves already. That's the problem with this.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  That's a huge problem. I also think Giannis is still a great player. I mean, look how he played in the Euro Basket Tournament. He was phenomenal. He was dominant.

• 11:15Speaker 04

  They are not acting, Milwaukee to me isn't acting like a team that is just kind of waving the white flag. I mean, the Turner deal was great. I know they did the deal to get rid of Damian Lillard, but I mean, I think that opened things up for them. And that to me wasn't a team that was saying, hey, we need to rebuild. As long as you have Giannis, especially in a very, very, very weak Eastern Conference, there's a scenario where things clicked for them this year with Turner coming in and they're what, a top three, top four seed? I mean, who's, who's, who can you say is definitively better than them? Knicks, Cavs, definitively, right? I mean, like, I know the cool pick right now, the Hawks, the Magic.

• 11:52Bill Simmons?

  The Magic going there, yeah.

• 11:53Speaker 04

  That's it. But that's really it. So why would they give up on this unless he says, I am leaving, I am gone, and I'm only going to the Knicks, and then they have to figure something out. I maintain, I know it all worked out for the Mavericks, but that trade was one of the worst trades in the history of sports, if only because they didn't get any picks in return. I'm talking about the Doncic trade. And so why would anyone recreate that? Why, like historically, you don't trade a generational great for no picks. And the Knicks just don't have any picks and any of their picks aren't good picks. They're not, you know, they're not first round lottery picks. So as much as I want to believe, I'm also the fan who like, if you're on my team, I love you. And so I feel uncomfortable saying

• 12:34Speaker 04

  here, oh, get rid of Cat or get rid of OG. They've given everything to us for as little time as they've been on the Knicks. And so I don't feel comfortable campaigning for that because I want to win with these guys. Of course, I'd be over the moon if Giannis got there. I just kind of think it's all kind, I don't want to say it's rage bait, as the kids like to say, but it's very, very, it's, it's very fun when you're in the media business and you put a name like Giannis and a name like the Knicks, you know that stuff is going to explode. And so I kind of just chalk it up to one of those.

• 13:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, that, so listen, I've never fully believed this story, even though Shams has information, obviously, and he wouldn't keep reporting unless there's some sort of smoke. The interesting piece about this time was that this was reportedly the team that he wanted to go to if he was going to leave. There's always an if, there's always a cap at. He wasn't saying trade him to the Knicks, he's saying. If I did get traded, I would want it to be to the Knicks. Okay, that's cool. They're not taking Towns back for you straight up. You don't have other picks to put with Towns. I don't know what Towns and Inaobie together really do for either. Like, do you even think that's a good trade for the Knicks?

• 13:41Bill Simmons?

  If all you ended up with was Giannis, Bridges and Jalen Brunson? Who we have no idea how Jalen Brunson and Giannis would play together? Both two guys who love having the ball? You think so?

• 13:53Speaker 04

  I think they'd be. Yeah, absolutely. Jalen Brunson, I mean.

• 13:56Bill Simmons?

  You think Jalen Brunson's good with this? He took less money to bring his friends in and now they're gonna go all in and get this other like.

• 14:02Speaker 04

  For Giannis?

• 14:04Bill Simmons?

  Giannis is a year 13. Who has the ball all the time?

• 14:07Speaker 04

  Sure, but is he slowing down? Is he, is he, is he beat up?

• 14:11Bill Simmons?

  He's not slowing down.

• 14:12Speaker 04

  Is he injury prone? Not really. Look, okay, let's just pretend that it's OG and Cat. And maybe we'll throw in Paco Madié, who they featured in their first preseason game.

• 14:22Bill Simmons?

  You're about to give him away.

• 14:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's okay. So let's throw him in there because he's kind of like a draft pick. He's 20 years old and maybe we'll throw in Tyler Kolek, who's from that area and they may love him over there.

• 14:31Bill Simmons?

  Nobody wants him there.

• 14:32Speaker 04

  What? Tyler Kolek was fantastic. Are you kidding? He's about to be unleashed.

• 14:36Bill Simmons?

  He's not, he's not a Giannis trade piece.

• 14:39Speaker 04

  He's, he's, he's a nice little part of the package. Anyway.

• 14:42Bill Simmons?

  He's like you're throwing in extra tires for the new car.

• 14:44Speaker 04

  Your starting lineup is now Mitch at the five, who has looked phenomenal. Right? He looks healthy. He's running up and down the court. He's catching all these lobs. Giannis, Giannis at the, at the four. Josh Hart at the three, Bridges at the.

• 15:00Bill Simmons?

  Two terrible free throw shooters. Keep going.

• 15:02Speaker 04

  Jalen Brunson. Who's not signing up for that? Again, I'm not advocating for it.

• 15:07Bill Simmons?

  Team you have. I think you, I would pick them to win the East if I had to pick anyone from the East right now. And I don't know. I would just rather see this play out and feel like maybe you have a chance to get Giannis a year from now. I, the weirdest thing about this with Giannis and with LeBron, because I think you gotta throw him in. Even though he's 41 or about to be 41, you gotta throw this in too. This new apron era we have, where guys who are kind of stuck in the situations that they're in, they don't have the outs in the same way. Like if you're LeBron, the two places you'd go are probably Cleveland or the Knicks. Right? You'd come home to Cleveland to finish your career or you'd go to the Knicks where you should have probably gone in 2010. Try to chase a title.

• 15:50Bill Simmons?

  I just don't with with all the apron stuff like with the Knicks. Okay, Ananobi and some other stuff for LeBron.

• 15:57Speaker 04

  No way.

• 15:57Bill Simmons?

  Is that something you would do to LeBron in a in a expiring contract year when he's in his 40s? Like, you're not doing that.

• 16:05Speaker 04

  I'm good on LeBron. He had his chance in 2010. He had multiple opportunities after that. I'm good on him like that. That would be insane if they give up a guy like Ananobi for the even one for one would be insane. That makes no sense.

• 16:16Bill Simmons?

  And then if you're Cleveland, are you trading Deandre Hunter? And Jared Allen? And another contract to get like four months of LeBron? So I just think LeBron's stuck with the Lakers and he's going to eventually realize that and be like, all right, I'm on Lucas team now. I'll figure this out. The Yanis thing is different because, you know, on the one hand, you go, well, he already won a title. Just be Dirk. Just stay there your whole career. You already won. You got your ring. Nobody's going to ever question, were you a good player?

• 16:45Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 16:46Bill Simmons?

  Spend the 20 years there. It'll be great. Your team's going to be pretty good. On the other side, I mean, I was looking at the odds for to win the title.

• 16:55Bill Simmons?

  It's it's crazy. They have, let me see, the eighth best odds in the Eastern Conference.

• 17:01Speaker 04

  Really?

• 17:02Bill Simmons?

  They're behind the Celtics, who don't even have Jason Tatum right now, who don't have a center. They're 19 to one to win the East. They're 65 to one to win the title. And they're minus 215 just to make the playoffs. And you think like, they have Yanis, they're in the East. They I can't even come up with a East playoff teams and minus 215 is like relative to these. Well, I think the possible trades pulled in. So I was trying to think like, all right, why why won't he just do the Dirk? What is it? I get that he's competitive, but they did add Myles Turner. They do have a good enough team that they can compete. And the real reason, I think, is this so weird? He just hasn't been at enough big games. I think he just misses. I looked it up.

• 17:46Bill Simmons?

  So they won four playoff series in 2021. Right when they won the finals? How many other playoffs? How many? What's the number of playoff series? Do you think he's won in his career other than the four in 2021 when he won the title? How many times has he just advanced to to another round?

• 18:02Speaker 04

  Well, the last couple of years were first round exits and pretty bad ones. I'm going to go top of my head. Maybe three?

• 18:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, four.

• 18:13Speaker 04

  Four.

• 18:13Bill Simmons?

  He's only played eighty, eighty-four playoff games. He's only have eight playoff series wins. I'm gonna put that in perspective for you, Ariel. LeBron has forty-one. He's forty-one playoff series wins.

• 18:25Speaker 04

  That's crazy, and this is year thirteen.

• 18:27Bill Simmons?

  Tim Duncan has thirty-five.

• 18:30Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 18:31Bill Simmons?

  Kobe had thirty-three, Shaq had thirty-two. You go on down, Durant twenty-two, Kawhi is nineteen. Jason Tatum is fifteen and seven in the playoffs. Jokic has ten. Giannis is eight and eight. And I think he's just looking at this like, I'm just tired of, I just wanna be in the playoffs. I just wanna keep playing past, you know, April thirtieth. And I, I think it's really starting to get to him. And he looks at Milwaukee and he looks at the landscape and he's like, now I'll be a year older, a year from now. I've already done this the last three years. So I don't even think it's about chasing a ring for him as much as like just being in relevant basketball games in April, May and June. And I don't really know where that's gonna be, cuz like, does he go to Houston? Does he go to Minnesota? Like, you're going down the line, it's like, well, that doesn't make sense.

• 19:16Bill Simmons?

  You're just going sideways, you know? So maybe that's why he's fixing it, fixated on the Knicks. It's like, well, they could actually win the title. I'm in a major market. It's the one move you can sell to people in Milwaukee, like, hey, I gave you a title. I did everything I can do. Now I'm gonna go here. The problem is, there's no trade.

• 19:33Speaker 04

  Well, that's the really interesting, okay, there's a few things there. Number one, it's a phenomenal point. Number two, like I said, I love the Eurobasket tournament. I don't know if you watched it. I, I really enjoyed it, and he looked like a man possessed. And he was so into it, and I know playing for his country is a big deal, and his brothers are on the team and, and all that stuff, but you could really tell like, wow, Giannis, like, he really took this serious, and he doesn't even need to play. Let's be honest, like, he could just show up for the Olympics. I think he recognizes, what's so interesting about him is that he's not the guy chasing the ring. He's not the guy looking at the clock saying like, man, I only got like six, seven years left, I need to do something now.

• 20:07Bill Simmons?

  Like Chris, like Chris Paul in the mid-two thousand ten.

• 20:09Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 20:10Bill Simmons?

  It's like, oh, no, I'm running out of time.

• 20:12Speaker 04

  He's playing with houses money at this point. Like he did that thing. He brought them the ring. He did everything that he said he was going to do and he did it with grace. And everyone adores him there and he'll have his number retired and they'll build a statue for him. Let's be honest. And so now to me, it just speaks to his competitive spirit. And I think he recognizes like few have recognized over the past 15 or so years, but it's happening more and more. You do it in New York, everything changes and they're so damn close. Like, could you imagine if he did it in New York? Could you imagine what it would do for his life? I mean, it's the one thing that no one else has been able to do since Walt and Willis and all those guys back in the day. And, and they're so damn close and he would probably get them very close or even put them over the edge.

• 20:54Speaker 04

  The thing that gets me going about these reports is I like, if they didn't do the Bridges deal, I would say like, this is a done deal. It's all right there. It felt like they were doing everything to get to this point. I still, I'm not trying to be-

• 21:08Bill Simmons?

  So you're saying they shot, they shot their wad with Bridges?

• 21:12Speaker 04

  I wish they could do that one over and it's no knock on him.

• 21:14Bill Simmons?

  We're officially there. You wish it, you was a do-over for him.

• 21:17Speaker 04

  I said this a long time ago. I said this a long time. And, and what worried me was, okay, so I'll finish that point. I didn't understand why they had, I get the tax, the New York tax, Brooklyn, New York. You gotta, the Knicks, they're gonna overpay. I didn't understand why they had to give up so many picks for a guy who had never been an All-Star, who yes, was a great defensive player and an iron man. He never misses a game and then the vibes with the Villanova guys. It felt like a major tax to pay. And then when it felt like this year, and I know he had the two big moments in the playoffs and it was pretty good. Had the Christmas Day game was great and all that. Then it felt to me like they gave him the big contract, the extension, because they said, all right, well, we already gave up all these picks. What are we gonna do now?

• 22:01Bill Simmons?

  What are we gonna do at this point?

• 22:01Speaker 04

  We're not just gonna let him walk. And I, and I wish I could live in a sliding doors reality. They don't make that trade. They stick with what they got and now they have this freaking treasure chest of picks to just hand over to Milwaukee. Because let's just play that scenario. Those picks plus one of these guys that we're talking about, Cat OG. Now we're talking, right? Now this is like a real thing. And, and I kinda wish they could do that one over.

• 22:27Bill Simmons?

  I made that point before last season. Like they went all in with these two moves, right? Towns and Bridges and all their picks. And it's like- That's it. You're kinda, this is, this is now your window. This is a three year stretch of this is your nucleus. You've shut the door on the Yanis trade. You don't have the assets to do it. The only weird thing with the, with the Yanis trade that I can't really figure out if I, like if I'm Milwaukee and it's like, fuck, we started out nine and 15. Yanis is now, he's been afraid this whole time to, to be a dick. Right? There's been really no passive aggressive stuff. Shams is really the only one reporting anything.

• 23:07Bill Simmons?

  Other than that, there's been nothing floating around and he's, he's been a good soldier. So it seems. But if he was like, I gotta get out of here. Get me out of here.

• 23:19Bill Simmons?

  They, I, I don't know what they would want when they already have so many picks going out the door. It's not like they can tank. It's almost like you have to get players who are good to replace the player you have who's great. So even let's say that, let's say the Knicks were like, cool, Towns and Ananobi for Yanis, Kuzma and Portis. And we'll do some, we'll throw some swaps and whatever. Let's go. All right. What, I'm a Bucks fan now for the next five years.

• 23:48Bill Simmons?

  What am I looking at? I, I'm gonna go 43 and 39 and not have my pick for until 2031? I'd rather just keep Yanis.

• 23:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, probably. Although it ain't much better right now with Yanis.

• 24:00Bill Simmons?

  Right. But at least I'd rather have one more year with them and then figure it out next summer when more, when there's more suitors in the trade pile than there are right now.

• 24:08Speaker 04

  A hundred percent. There's, um, yeah, there's no real rush and, and, and honestly.

• 24:13Bill Simmons?

  There's no rush unless he says, get me out of here. And then that changes the rush angle.

• 24:18Speaker 04

  I would be surprised if he did that. At least publicly, I would be surprised. Perhaps privately, and, and I believe Shams, I mean, his reporting is always spot on. I just, to me, this seems like a next year story more than a this year story. It, it doesn't quite feel like something that's going to come to fruition. And by the way, the Knicks are going to be in a completely different spot. Um, you know, they'll be defending champs this time next year.

• 24:38Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 24:38Speaker 04

  There will be that pressure.

• 24:40Bill Simmons?

  There'll be the parade. Bring Yanis to the parade.

• 24:42Speaker 04

  Oh my, no, it's just like, okay, now how do we? One up this. I also get worried by the way, like as someone who feels like the window is right there. Like it's, it's never been this open since the nineties for us. I do get worried about blowing things up every off season, right? Like last year, it felt like it took them a while to get things going. Now you have to blow it up again. There's no guarantee, by the way, if you, if you bring a Yanis that you're going to win a championship. There's no guarantee that you make this super team, if you will, that you win a championship. How many times have we seen, you know, the, the more cohesive team get over the hump? So that stuff worries me. I watched the first two preseason games. Bill, the vibes are phenomenal. I mean, I just have to say the vibes are, I was sitting here talking to you about Tibbs and I was like, oh, why'd they do this?

• 25:23Speaker 04

  Why'd they ruin it? Mike Brown is a breath of fresh air. I love Tibbs. I miss him. Their ninth, 10th man is Malcolm Brogdon. It's unbelievable. Like they are, I am the embarrassment of riches coming off the bench from Clarkson. Yabu Selly, I have to buy his jersey. I love this guy. I love this guy.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  Matthews is a great pickup as well. I may be screwing that one up. The dude from Atlanta who's hitting all the shot. I always, I always know Matthews. Yeah, yeah. They legit could go 10, 11 deep and, and so I like the vibes right now and I'm worried about torpedoing that. Because the window has never been this wide open for them. I mean, who are we afraid of? The Cavs? Like, I don't think we really need Yanis, to be honest. As crazy as that may sound, we're good. We're good. We've got a great team. Why screw this up?

• 26:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, and you won't be able to trade for him next year because you will be well over the second apron next year, which basically you're where Cleveland is now. Like Cleveland can't do anything. They're just crippled because they're, once you pass that certain threshold, you're done. There's such an interesting cat and mouse piece to this too. Where if you're the Knicks, like if I'm running the Knicks.

• 26:31Bill Simmons?

  I don't want anything to come out that makes it seem that I've seriously considered trading.

• 26:35Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:36Bill Simmons?

  These guys that are about to try to win me the title for somebody I'm almost definitely not getting anyway. So, and if you read, that's the part I really believe with the reporting. It's like.

• 26:48Bill Simmons?

  This isn't an open window because Giannis isn't saying he's being traded yet. But if there was going to be a trade, what do you think it would look like? And now the Knicks are like, oh shit, like, do we put names in this? What if the names get leaked? Now, now I have to talk to Towns and Towns is like, what the hell? Why am I in this trade story? I don't want to go to Milwaukee. And meanwhile, we're about to go to training camp. So it just felt a lot of cat and mouse. Oh yeah, you know, Giannis is a great player and Milwaukee's going, well, if there was a trade, what would be in the trade? Do you think? And they're like, I don't know. It obviously have to be something really good. And they're just doing that and not saying anything. And I think that's what the trade talks were. Ah, you know, definitely something.

• 27:31Speaker 04

  Can I ask you from, from like a break the fourth wall media perspective? What's the motive for putting this out? Like we know, like Shams, I think he does a great job, but he's, he's in, he, he plays in the currency game of like, okay, getting the, the, the trade announcements and the signings and all this stuff. What's the motive to putting this out? If, if an agent or a team didn't want this out, I don't think he's putting it out. He's not an investigative reporter in that regard. And so why put this out?

• 27:55Bill Simmons?

  Lot of stuff, just a lot of smoke floating around about the situation. Because I think, especially once even something as stupid as the odds for the conference come out and you just kind of put them against all of these other teams in the East. You go, wow, they, they're like not far away from Indiana, who just lost the best guy in the team for a year. You know, so I don't know. He is, he's a weird situation because he's got people here, but he's also got people in Europe that represent him. You know, he was overseas for a lot of the summer. They don't have a lot of connectivity to him. They're telling everybody everything's fine. So I, I gotta be honest, I don't really know what to believe with this story anymore. Is Giannis happy? Is he not happy? Is he going to come out of the gate, be awesome?

• 28:38Bill Simmons?

  And they're going to go two and five and he's just going to immediately go, get me out of here? I don't know what to expect.

• 28:44Speaker 04

  I, I definitely feel like there's a level of unhappiness there. And I think in this day and age, the star players love to play this game with us. I mean, just look at yesterday with LeBron and, and, and this sort of cryptic game. And, and I think he's okay with all of this.

• 28:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's part of the package now.

• 29:00Speaker 04

  I believe that he will play for another team before his career is said and done. I don't think he's going to be a Bucks lifer. I thought at one point he was going to be, it doesn't seem that way anymore.

• 29:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 29:09Speaker 04

  I just, I don't want to, I don't want to ruin the vibes. I think, I think we're good.

• 29:14Bill Simmons?

  The question for me, and this will determine the next three months, is it unhappiness? Or is it frustration? Cause if he's frustrated, that's different. I can work with frustration. I can, I can kind of coach you up. Unhappy means like, I'm fucking, this sucks. Get me out of here. Frustration is like, man, I wish we could win more. How do we get to the next step? I'm, uh, but, and you can kind of coach that. I don't know if you can coach unhappiness.

• 29:41Speaker 04

  I feel like it might be the former, the coaching situation there has been a mess, right? Since they got rid of, uh, Coach Bud. I found it very interesting when they, uh, they brought back the Nassis, right? And that to me is, is like, what could we do to make this guy happy?

• 29:57Bill Simmons?

  That's their version of the aspiration stock.

• 30:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:01Bill Simmons?

  A little 2.8 million dollars for the Nassis. Nassis is a great guy, but yeah, that was, you know, that's a team.

• 30:08Speaker 04

  He was balling out at the Eurobasket too, but when they brought him back, I was like, oh, this seems like, hey, Giannis, like what, what do you want? What could we do? Big trade for Turner, big signing, great. The Nassis, would that make you happy? Yeah, it would make me happy.

• 30:24Bill Simmons?

  Are there any other family members we can put on the team? Well, Giannis has made seven straight first team O M B As. And he's averaged 30 and 12 and six for the last seven years. And from what I've seen, I don't feel like he's declined at all athletically. So it still feels, some of these big guys, like some of the centers, they hit early 30s and they start to waver a little bit. I don't see it with him. I, listen, I would pick your team over everybody else in the East right now. If like just at a gunpoint.

• 30:52Speaker 04

  Forget the East, forget the East. Do we have a shot?

• 30:56Bill Simmons?

  I personally don't think, I have OK, OKC and Denver way up here.

• 31:01Speaker 04

  Denver too?

• 31:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 04

  Denver too?

• 31:02Bill Simmons?

  Denver with the bench and they have the best guy in the league. I have those two levitating above everybody else, but that's

• 31:09Speaker 04

  Okay, well, they'll have to beat each other up.

• 31:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's what you want. You want, you want OKC in a back to back with a lot of miles on them with some tough, going through this gauntlet West. And meanwhile, you know, you talked about the continuity thing like with Cleveland. I actually like that nothing happened with them and that they had to just be like, all right, we lost last year. Let's, let's bring it back. What would we learn from last year?

• 31:32Speaker 04

  They brought in Lonzo Ball, though.

• 31:34Bill Simmons?

  True, but I'm saying like they kept their nucleus. They didn't be like, oh, we lost. Let's trade Garland. Oh, we gotta do this. Like they They're gonna run back a team that won 64 games, which I don't feel like people do anymore. All right, we're gonna take a break.

• 31:47Speaker 04

  Just for the record, I think the Knicks are gonna win. I think we're gonna beat OKC in six. Just want to put that. It's October 7th, 2025. So remember this around June 14th or so.

• 31:56Bill Simmons?

  Right. So you're planning on Bill's Super Bowl in February and then the Knicks title parade four months later?

• 32:01Speaker 04

  There's a four month stretch where all my worries, Bill, are gonna just wash away. Like all the angst of the past 43 years of my life. It's, it's right here. There's a four month stretch between February to June that it's just gonna be the most glorious time of my life. So yes, I am planning on that.

• 32:16Bill Simmons?

  I'm happy for you. Uh, we're gonna take a break. We gotta talk about my guy, Pereira. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel, the FanDuel Sportsbook app, your home for all your favorite NFL bets from yards to touchdowns to who will win with FanDuel. Any play can be the play of the game. And on Thursday night, the Eagles and the Giants, they're playing little NFC East battle. FanDuel giving all customers a 50% profit boost token. So I would just do Eagles money line with some sort of adjusted uh, under. So jack it up into the high 40s. Do that together. I thought this is gonna be an ugly, ugly scoring game. I don't think it'll be that fun to watch, but it'll be fun to watch if you have the Eagles in the under.

• 32:58Bill Simmons?

  Visit fanduel.com/BS to bet the Eagles versus the Giants with a 50% profit boost token. Play your game with FanDuel. An official sports betting partner of the NFL. You must be 21 plus, present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Opting for a bonus issued as non-durable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration, max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.fan.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting the leadership of a team captain on the football field. But getting a C captain?

• 33:43Bill Simmons?

  Sure, they're both captains, but who's going to run your offense? You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team. So don't settle for just any insurance. When it comes to getting the help you need, State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, Alex Pereira counted out. Pretty sizable underdog in the rematch on Saturday night. And comes out and fucking Michael Myers is it? And just completely destroys the champ. Wins the light heavyweight title back. And in a moment where it felt like, ah, that was so cool with the prayer thing, where it really felt like something kind of brewing

• 34:26Bill Simmons?

  from a magical standpoint as like a star, like some attraction. And then it's like, ah, he loses, right? Right when I was like, really feel like he could have blown up. Gets the title back. And now, uh, now it's him and DePore is the two biggest, I think, champion stars that they have. But, uh, were you surprised first?

• 34:46Speaker 04

  No, absolutely not. That was not him in March. And, and people get upset when fighters talk about illnesses or injuries. Oh, like they're human beings, they're not robots and they're going through things. And I was told repeatedly as recently as this morning, like, yo, I was with the guy, like, he was super sick. He was super. People are telling me how he shouldn't have fought in March. He was super sick. He wasn't himself, all these things. And you kind of saw that in the performance. Who would have thought? Everyone thought that Ankalaev would try to out wrestle him when when they fought the first time. And he did shoot 12 times. He was actually 0 for 12, which was shocking. But no one thought that he would throw and land more than Alex Perre. That's Alex's game. And he just didn't seem like he could get going.

• 35:30Speaker 04

  And so we wanted to see, all right, everyone said he's good this time around. He's healthy. He got the fight when he wanted it in October. He needed some time off. He fought a lot over the past two years. And look at the way he fought. I mean, the fight only lasted like 80 or so seconds. But look how quickly he closed the distance. Look at how he landed that overhand right. Look at the ferocity, the viciousness. He fought mad. And the problem was, he wanted the right, the wrong. Ankalaev's team, and in particular, his manager, talked a whole lot of smack about him on social media. He took that personally. And you saw the result. This was just what the doctor ordered for the UFC. I have a theory, Bill, that 2016 was the greatest year in UFC history. 2026 might actually top it. If a few things actually break in their favor here. And it all starts with this win for Alex Perre.

• 36:15Speaker 04

  But like, everyone, every time we come on, I taught, you asked me about like, where are the stars? Where are the stars? Things might break. A few more results here and a few more comebacks and a few more guys agree to fight. And 2026 could be an all time year for the UFC. And of course, it all starts with their deal with Paramount Plus. Back to Perre. This is what they needed. This was just what the doctor ordered for himself, for his career. Obviously, he's got his mojo back. And now for the UFC to have him back on top is is gigantic. I mean, massive.

• 36:45Bill Simmons?

  Well, he hasn't even been in the UFC four years, right?

• 36:48Speaker 04

  It's one of the greatest runs ever. And if he does what he wants to do next, he actually goes down as the greatest fighter of all time. There's no questions asked.

• 36:56Bill Simmons?

  He ends an 18 fight win streak from Strickland, 23 from Izzy, 13 from Yuri, and 14 from Ankalaev. Not to mention he also beat a hill in Roundtree. And but more importantly, the performance art of it in a sport where you desperately need, like, you want the guys to come in and not not just win, but put on a show. And you want them to stand up and show different things, not be rolling around for five rounds. This is like exactly what the doctor ordered. Now, he's floating heavyweight.

• 37:29Bill Simmons?

  What it like, I don't think they're going to be in business with Jon Jones again. I just, I know they keep floating that around, but I'll, I'll be, that's one of those. I'll believe it when he's in the octagon and it's actually happening. You think it's actually happening? You trust him at this point to, to be a reliable person to put in a actual card?

• 37:46Speaker 04

  Absolutely. John doesn't, John doesn't disappear. All that stuff from Dana about like, I can't trust John comes from two places. Number one, you know, he's had his, his, whatever you want to call them, issues with the law over the years and PDs and all that stuff. But in the latter portion of his career, he's been fine. Like the last few heavyweight fights, he's been fine. He got injured, yeah. Dana's really mad about the fact that they offered him 30 million to fight Tom Aspinall. He said yes, and then he said no. And he strung them along. And so he's annoyed. And so he doesn't want to reward him with the White House card. But now everything has changed. Alex Pereira has won. Alex Pereira is back. He's, he's the light heavyweight champion. There aren't a ton of options for him at light heavyweight.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  There's Yuri Prochaska who looked great, but he's already beaten him twice. And then there's a guy named Carlos Alberg, who also looked great, but isn't a big draw. You couple that, like you, you, you compare that with-

• 38:39Bill Simmons?

  Could Shamaia move up or no?

• 38:41Speaker 04

  No, that's crazy talk. He's, he's a 185'er. He just won the belt. Stick him there and there's some big fights for him there and that would just be a waste.

• 38:50Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 38:50Speaker 04

  Pereira moves up to heavyweight. Stick with me here. Pereira wants to fight Jon Jones. He said it. He didn't want to call him out in the cage because Jon tragically just lost his brother, Arthur Jones, former Syracuse, Baltimore Raven and Indianapolis Colt. I mean, shocking stuff, 39 years old. And so he wanted to be respectful, which was amazing. But then in the back, in the post-fight press conference and all of that, he said, I want to move up and I want to fight Jon Jones. Very matter-of-factly. I'm done here at light heavyweight. I did what I wanted to do. I got my belt back. I exacted revenge. Now I'm done. Jon has nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. Because every time Jon was asked about Tom Aspinall, he said, I don't want that fight. I want Pereira, who at the time was the light heavyweight champion. Well, here he is. He's back to being light heavyweight champion.

• 39:32Speaker 04

  And he says specifically, because Pereira would never want to talk about this, I want Jon. So you make Jon versus Pereira. Now, most people, as I've said this, say to me, well, what about Tom Aspinall? You were banging the drum for the past, you know, year about Tom getting screwed and all this stuff. Well, guess what? The rules are different now because John isn't the champion. So John doesn't have to fight Tom Aspinall anymore. But it's good for Tom Aspinall's business if now all of a sudden he's residing atop a heavyweight division that has Alex Perrin, John Jones in it. Rising tide lifts all boats. Because guess what? The winner of that fight will have to fight him. And if not, he can now say, John, you retired if because you didn't want to fight me. And now Alex, if you beat John or John, you'll retire again to not fight me. Like, that's two wins over you, or that's a win over the badass Alex Perrin.

• 40:14Speaker 04

  If Alex wins and ends up beating him, now he goes down as the greatest ever because no one has ever won three titles in the UFC, three different weight classes. Heavyweight, light heavyweight, middleweight.

• 40:23Bill Simmons?

  You're talking the traditional, the traditional classes.

• 40:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, no one's ever done that. The most anyone's ever done is, is two. He's now a former middleweight champion, a current light heavyweight champion, won that belt twice, which isn't a common thing. And now he's going up for a heavyweight belt as well eventually. Like, by the end of next year, he could be doing that if he beats John. And oh, by the way, he can be the guy to beat John, the first guy to beat John. And oh, by the way, now we're talking about Conor McGregor coming back, which is a very real thing. Oh, by the way, we're talking about Ronda Rousey coming back, which is a real thing as well. This is what I'm talking about. Bill, this is a real thing.

• 40:55Bill Simmons?

  Ronda Rousey can't come back. She's, we've already seen that. She doesn't want to get hit anymore. She didn't want to get hit seven years ago.

• 41:03Speaker 04

  I will say this, is she ultimately going to fight? Remains to be seen. Is it a real thing that she is contemplating it and training for a potential return? That's a very real thing. That's a very real thing. And, and by the way, I never saw this coming. To your point, she didn't want to fight. She was a shell of herself in 2016.

• 41:21Bill Simmons?

  Her spirit was broken.

• 41:23Speaker 04

  Broken. And then the WWE run didn't end well. I think she just had another kid. I thought she was just going to sail off into the sunset and, and never to be seen again. She is training to come back. Does she ultimately come back? That's the question. I don't know, but that's a real thing. So think about that. You could potentially get Conor back, John back, Ronda back. You have Alex back on top. You have Islam going for a second title here at Madison Square Garden next month. You've got things. There's a lot of things happening here in the UFC. You've got Amanda Nunes versus Kayla Harris. Amanda Nunes came back as well. Taporia, oh my God, forgot about him. Potential Ilya Taporia versus Patty Pimblett fight. Everyone will watch that. Like Paramount Plus.

• 42:05Speaker 04

  They've stepped in something here. This is a great time to be in the UFC business. I feel from our, for our friends at ESPN, because the end of the ESPN run was a little bit like a fizzle out and, and I think it will be a fizzle out by the end of the year, but 2026 is shaping up. If it all kind of falls in the right, and then I threw out the crazy one, the craziest of them all. Okay. So then, then there's Tom Aspinall, who's the heavyweight king, who's the baddest man on the planet. He's like, well, what about me? Then you cut a deal with the PFL and you get Francis Nganu back and you do Francis versus Tom Aspinall? Come on now. They have the money. They're getting 1.1 billion from Paramount next year. Let's go.

• 42:42Bill Simmons?

  What is that? What is that? Uh, that side worth? The one that Francis is in? Does that mean, is that, are they even doing well? I don't know. I have no idea.

• 42:53Speaker 04

  They're not huge fans of mine right now. No, well, no, because they're not huge fans of mine.

• 42:58Speaker 04

  They have been a mess and, and they are the de facto number two, meaning there's no other competition and they have an incredible opportunity to do something and be the counter to the UFC. The problem is they can't get out of their own way. They try to get too.

• 43:13Bill Simmons?

  Isn't that every UFC competitor for 25 years?

• 43:16Speaker 04

  The problem with these guys is they get too cute and they say, you know what? Everyone loves the NFL. Everyone loves Premier League soccer, the NBA. We're going to make standings and we're going to have points. And if you win via submission, you're going to get three points. It's the fight game. People just want to see big fights. Just make the best fights possible. And none of this tournament points standings, and they made it so convoluted that people checked out. They didn't understand what was going on. Now they're trying, they just hired a new CEO, a new face of the company. Yeah. And by the way, they're on ESPN. They're on ESPN. Like they had a big platform and they still do. They have one more year there, but they just made things a little bit too complicated. Now they're trying to clean it up. Fair play to them, but the gap is just so gigantic that like Francis wants to fight and they don't even have a fight for him

• 44:00Speaker 04

  because they haven't done a good enough job of building stars.

• 44:03Bill Simmons?

  So the Paramount thing feels like it's going to be a positive.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  Oh yeah, I think it's gonna be huge. I think it's gonna be gigantic. I mean, look, the big thing is, and Connor has talked about it, I need a new contract. I have two fights left, but I need new contract because my old contract says I get pay-per-view points. There's no pay-per-view anymore. And they'll, they'll figure it out. Like, the whole thing isn't just gonna stop. There's not gonna be a strike. There's no Fighters Association. But, once they figure this all out, could you imagine, you're just gonna have to turn on Paramount Plus and you're gonna get all these massive fights? And then the, the White House thing is gonna be insane. Like, that's, people-

• 44:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, can we watch for that? So this is 100% definitely happening.

• 44:40Speaker 04

  Happening, people don't believe it.

• 44:42Bill Simmons?

  And they're gonna load the card, because we, remember, we thought they're gonna load UFC 200, and then-

• 44:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:46Bill Simmons?

  They were almost like, "Oh, UFC 200's the brand," or 300. "Yeah, we don't even have to really load the brand, because we have a brand already." And then, uh, and you explained that on this podcast. They're not gonna do that with the White House?

• 44:58Speaker 04

  So, I think they would like to load it. Obviously, it's still, what are we, uh, October, that's 10 plus, like, that's in eight months. So, things can happen, injuries can happen. But just the fact that this sport was banned in this city that I'm, you know, residing in right now, 10 years ago, and now, around the time of America's 250th birthday, they're gonna be at the White House, on the South Lawn, on CBS? Like CBS, like Channel 2 here. Like, what? That's crazy. And, and the plan is, and the want is, and, and, and I think it's, it's accurate, like, Donald Trump and his people say, "Bring us the best." This is, Donald Trump is going back to Trump Taj Mahal, Donald Trump of the late 80s, saying,

• 45:41Speaker 04

  "I want Tyson, I want WrestleMania, bring me the best." So, they're gonna bring him the best. And I think the UFC and their owners recognize this is a massive opportunity. So, we initially thought it was gonna be July 4th, because July 4th is a Saturday, that was originally what, what was said. But then they said, "There's too much going on, 250th birthday." So, they're now doing it on Donald Trump's birthday, which is June 14th. That's the date that has been announced, which, interestingly enough, is a Sunday, Bill, which is very rare for the UFC. They used to do some Sunday shows back in the FS1 days, but a Sunday night on CBS is kind of wild to think that there's gonna be a massive card, potentially with Jon Jones and Conor McGregor on the card, not to mention Alex

• 46:23Speaker 04

  Pereira and God knows who else. The only one who has said they don't want to be on the card is Ronda Rousey. For whatever reason, she didn't really go into it, but she said, "I'm good on the White House."

• 46:33Bill Simmons?

  Wasn't counting on her to begin with. You know,

• 46:39Bill Simmons?

  you just, when you said it's a Sunday, that's that, I mean, that's gonna be an NBA Finals game.

• 46:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. So is June 14th Father's Day?

• 46:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 46:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:51Bill Simmons?

  Fascinating, right? And it's also US Open. US Open's always Father's Day too, for golf.

• 46:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, but NBA, because I know NBA always has that, like, they usually have that Sunday, that Father's Day game. Although, by the way, this Father's Day, I remember, because it was just a few months ago, it was, um, game seven was on the Monday, if you recall.

• 47:10Bill Simmons?

  But I think this will be a-

• 47:11Speaker 04

  You think so? Have they even come out with it yet?

• 47:14Bill Simmons?

  No, I'll, I'll look. Um, yeah, that, no, they don't, they don't usually put out the final schedule yet, but it usually goes, I forget how they-

• 47:20Speaker 04

  Well, they usually say, like, it starts on this day, right? Like, June 3rd or something like that. What do you think would do better ratings-wise?

• 47:27Bill Simmons?

  It might be a Monday, because, yeah, because game seven's usually a Sunday. It's like Monday, Thursday, Sunday is five, six, seven. So maybe, maybe that's why they're doing it. I, you know, like, we only have so many great sports moments. I don't want them competing against each other. Let's spread them out.

• 47:42Speaker 04

  What would do better ratings-wise? NB, let's say it's NBA Finals, game seven, or even game six, or whatever, game five. And it's, you know, let's say the Knicks are involved, but it's UFC at the White House.

• 47:52Bill Simmons?

  Knicks are involved. Knicks win.

• 47:54Speaker 04

  Knicks win? Okay.

• 47:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Knicks win.

• 47:55Speaker 04

  Even if it's Conor McGregor and John Jones and all these guys?

• 47:58Bill Simmons?

  I think if it's OKC Cleveland, you might, you might have a small chance. I don't know. I mean, has UFC ever had, has it ever been on a network before? Has it ever been on CBS or anywhere?

• 48:10Speaker 04

  Fox and ABC.

• 48:12Bill Simmons?

  ABC, it was on.

• 48:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, but they've given them crap cards.

• 48:15Bill Simmons?

  A numbered card, though? Not a, not like a real pay-per-view?

• 48:18Speaker 04

  But you'll recall, the first ever Fox show was, uh, Junior Dos Santos against Kane Velazquez for the heavyweight title in November of 2011, and it lasted 60 seconds. That was a big deal, for the heavyweight title. One fight, one hour. They had John Jones and Brock Lesnar, Dana White on the desk with Kurt Menefee. It was wild. And, um, after that, they would put the odd, they would put like a Demetrius Johnson flyweight fight, or a Benson Henderson lightweight fight, but never names like this. Never, ever. I mean, Connor, or John, or Ron, like, those types of names, no way. So I'm curious, but yes.

• 48:50Speaker 04

  I would agree, in America at least, if the Knicks were involved, I would say that the Knicks would win out. ABC would win out.

• 48:57Bill Simmons?

  What do we call the pay-per-views now? When we go to Paramount?

• 49:00Speaker 04

  I think we're gonna go to PLEs. PLEs, premium live events, like WWE does.

• 49:07Bill Simmons?

  Hasn't caught on in the Simmons house. My son's not like, were we watching the PLE tonight? Yeah.

• 49:12Speaker 04

  What does he say? What does he say?

• 49:13Bill Simmons?

  We still call them pay-per-views. I don't know what else to call them.

• 49:17Speaker 04

  You're old school. And now this is when you're talking about WWE.

• 49:20Bill Simmons?

  Just in general, like if it's like a special event, it's a pay-per-view.

• 49:24Speaker 04

  No, I know.

• 49:25Bill Simmons?

  Or you call it by the name. I don't know. I don't really know. So we're just not gonna have pay-per-views anymore except for boxing?

• 49:31Speaker 04

  It's done. And how many boxing ones? Like The Zone has said they're gonna get out of the pay-per-view business. Like, there's a very good chance for at least the next seven years, the pay-per-view business is gonna be, you know, few and far between, which, you know, look, the world has changed, streaming, all that stuff. Even this ESPN Unlimited thing, like, there's still a cost attached to that if you wanna get the WWE ones. So, yes, but the notion of sitting down and having to pay $79.99, that could end. There's three more. There's three more UFC's. And then who else other than UFC was putting them on consistently every month? No one.

• 50:03Bill Simmons?

  Nobody. No, it's almost like the end of an era. Do you feel like ESPN and WWE, do you like that fit?

• 50:10Speaker 04

  I think it's, oh my gosh, it's surreal for me. Bill, when I was there, and I was there a much shorter time than you, but I was there 18 to 21. And during that stretch, WrestleMania was at MetLife. And I was like, please, can we go cover it? Can we do something like interviews? Do a, nah, nah, what? SportsCenter head, something, nothing. And now to see how much they're covering it, not just like, you know, on social media, but SportsCenter doing highlights, like, it's a real thing. And then the amount of- Promotional push that they gave that first show in Indianapolis and there's another one coming up this weekend in Perth, Crown Jewel, is surreal. It's really surreal. And, you know, not to get too inside baseball, but I really don't think this happens without

• 50:55Speaker 04

  Nick Khan. Like, I really don't think this happens. He deserves a ton of credit for this because I was there. Like, I was in those walls. They wanted nothing to do with wrestling. They would get annoyed when we would talk about wrestling or try to like equate it to MMA and stuff like that. And so to see how far it has come is really, is really surreal. And so I think it's huge for WWE and obviously I think it's huge for ESPN.

• 51:16Bill Simmons?

  I think McAfee helps with that, right? I mean, McAfee being there three hours a day, but is also on the wrestling. I don't, it just feels like there's more synergy than there was 20 years ago. Plus, they need it because they lost UFC.

• 51:28Speaker 04

  So, I agree with that. I also think that for the ESPN, the employees, the people who work, because a lot of those people I think are going to go from UFC to WWE in terms of working on the shows, this is going to be a walk in the park. Number one, the vibe that you get from WWE, like, they did this whole package, like, wow, we made it to ESPN, it's been so many years. It feels like they're so happy to be here because it's almost like validating for them, as opposed to UFC who kind of waltzed in from Fox and been like, this is how we do it around here. Also, you can, you could bank on who's going to be on all these shows months in advance, right? Like, you know. So, it's not like, oh, this pay-per-view's a little weak, or this guy got hurt a week out and we have

• 52:07Speaker 04

  to scramble. This is going to feel similar to promoting and covering UFC because it's the same type of thing, combat sports, but because they're able to control so much and because I think WWE is going to be a more agreeable partner, I think it's going to be a match made in heaven.

• 52:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then to be able to tell them, like, we need something on this weekend, we don't have anything.

• 52:28Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:29Bill Simmons?

  Can you move WrestleMania to this date? I'm not, they can't do it next two years, but, hey, that March 20, that March 29th date, when it's Final Four, we're just, we got nothing that weekend. What if we move something there? I think they're going to really work with them to do that. In general, I really think this, one of the weird outcomes of this decade is people are getting better with the sports calendar. Of really like targeting week weekends and trying to program stuff. I think, I think the UFC and the boxing, it was really a mess for a long time where they would just have this huge boxing event, but it would be simultaneously against, you know, three other things. You're like, why'd you do it that weekend? It's the Masters, you know?

• 53:11Speaker 04

  A hundred percent. Also, this is the first year, this past year, WrestleMania, this was something actually Nick talked about in interviews. He might've even talked about it with you, to be honest, because he only seems to do interviews with you these days. Can't even get him to do.

• 53:24Bill Simmons?

  I'm a friendly space for Nick. Yeah.

• 53:25Speaker 04

  I mean, golly, I wish I could get him on. Anyway, he talked about like, do you remember the Philly WrestleMania was the same weekend as Final Four and they continued to do that for so many years. Now you see WrestleMania is now later in the month when there's nothing going on in late April. UFC used to go Super Bowl weekend and that never, never really made sense to me because like you're in Vegas, I get it, people are there to gamble, but all the media is covering the Super Bowl and you're putting on a big fight on that Saturday. Now they, now they don't do anything. It's maybe a small show on Super Bowl weekend, but nothing big.

• 53:57Bill Simmons?

  You want to target the week before when nothing's going on, that week between AFC, NFC title games and then Super Bowl and you have that extra weekend and that's a weekend. So then everybody's better at everything now. I don't know. I'm still, the ESPN thing still feels weird to me, but I think I'm just not used to it yet. Cause I'm with you. I've watched SportsCenter a couple of times, like, let's go to, let's go, let's go to Anaheim. We're raw last night. It's like, wait, what? This is, what are you guys doing?

• 54:24Speaker 04

  And it's not tongue in cheek and it's not in jest. It's like, they're really talking about it. And I mean, look, WWE is going to benefit greatly from this. And, and I, and I just think that the ESPN was smart enough to recognize they need subscribers and WWE fans are the most loyal and they will literally follow them everywhere. Like they start a new network, streaming platform, they go there. They go to Peacock, they go there. They'll go to ESPN Unlimited or whatever this is going to be called. And so this to me is a home run. You want those people. It's going to be interesting to see how many of these shows, these PLEs actually get on ESPN linear. Cause they hinted at, okay, a few.

• 55:05Speaker 04

  The pay-per-views, whatever you want to call them, are going to be on, some are going to be on linear, meaning like you'll turn on channel 206 if you have, you know, DirecTV and there it is. I'm curious how, because to me, it makes no sense to do that. Like, you want people to subscribe to get this, right? Same with UFC. That's why the CBS ones are going to be few and far between, because they want ultimately people, how do they get their money back subscribing to Paramount Plus or ESPN Unlimited?

• 55:29Bill Simmons?

  Can we call them money grabs?

• 55:31Speaker 04

  Uh, I mean, you're the one that just said it was a safe space. I say it's great. I love the PLEs.

• 55:37Bill Simmons?

  I'm just trying to think of some, some way to like platinum. I'm trying to think in other walks of life when something is more special than something else.

• 55:48Speaker 04

  SuperCard? I don't, you know what?

• 55:50Bill Simmons?

  SuperCard. I don't mind SuperCard.

• 55:52Speaker 04

  PLE, it's kind of caught on in my life.

• 55:55Bill Simmons?

  Something, somebody would get arrested, like an investment banker who's like cheating with PLEs and he's going to jail. He was talking to Jeff Bezos and sold him PLEs.

• 56:04Speaker 04

  Big show, something like that. AW still does pay-per-views, so they're one of the few, but they don't do them monthly. They're now with HBO Max.

• 56:11Bill Simmons?

  SuperCard's not bad. Get the cards and super, oh, is it a SuperCard this weekend?

• 56:15Speaker 04

  Text your friends in Stanford. Let them know.

• 56:18Bill Simmons?

  I'm not against that. Uh, all right, before we go, Bills?

• 56:22Speaker 04

  Nah, I'm good. Okay, thank you.

• 56:24Bill Simmons?

  No, last thing.

• 56:25Speaker 04

  No, I'm kidding. I was just didn't want to talk about it.

• 56:26Bill Simmons?

  You played five games.

• 56:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:29Bill Simmons?

  You haven't played a good start to finish game yet.

• 56:31Speaker 04

  No.

• 56:32Bill Simmons?

  So what's going on?

• 56:34Speaker 04

  I'm, I'm very nervous and I was telling all my friends, this is a trap game. Like, this is not a cakewalk. I know, first of all, the Patriots aren't bad.

• 56:42Bill Simmons?

  I know. I was saying this last week.

• 56:44Speaker 04

  Drake May is good. And honestly, the best thing I could say about Drake May, he reminded me a lot of Josh. Like, the way he was scrambling and the way he was making something out of nothing. Stefan Diggs was annoying the shit out of me, part of my French, but like, he had every right to feel fired up. I get it. I don't like the guy, but I get it. And he came up big. And you know what really slapped me in the face watching that game? On top of like the mistakes and the penalties and the stupid penalty, I mean stupid penalties and, and, and, you know, the turnovers. We don't have that guy, that WR1. You know, Keon Coleman is fine. Khalil Shakir is fine. Kincaid, fine. Knox, fine. But who's that guy that Josh could count on to make the big play,

• 57:28Speaker 04

  to get a few extra yards, to get the first down? And that's what worries me. James Cook is great. We have crossed off that issue. And the defense will get, we're missing Ed Oliver and we're a little banged up. But who's that top dog? And I worry, I don't think Keon Coleman is that guy. He's good, but he's more number two, number three. Josh Palmer isn't that guy. He's fine, too. So that is what the game really like, like my big takeaway. But you know as well as, they should have won that game. The Bills should have won that game and I don't think they took them seriously. And if I'm being 100% honest, we need to burn those jerseys. I never want to see those, those jerseys ever again. I'm sorry, I don't like that stuff. Stick with the, the, stick with the classics. And every time a team does this sort of thing, I feel like they always lose. The Knicks, when they would bring out like their orange, all orange, or their St. Patty's Day green. No, enough of that.

• 58:13Speaker 04

  And I knew once they walked out.

• 58:15Bill Simmons?

  I'm like, no. You know, it's interesting. James Cook is that guy for you. And that was the guy the Patriots really felt like they had to shut down in the game. Right? And, and they're actually, they have a really good run defense this year. But once they took him out, where are you going to get your explosive plays? And I think that was, you're probably going to get it from Josh, but they did a nice job handling him.

• 58:36Speaker 04

  They did a great job.

• 58:37Bill Simmons?

  It's a week, it's a week five win. It meant way more to the Pats because, you know, all the Pats fans have just been out here touting the Drake May potential and nobody else wants to hear it. And then he finally did it. And it's like, that's what we were talking about. We've been, we were, we've been watching this since he started playing. He's good.

• 58:56Speaker 04

  So you guys are the Spurs. You will always figure it out. You have become the Spurs of the NFL. And I, and I knew this, this drought, if you will, wasn't going to last for long. I knew you would figure it out. I think you squeak into the playoffs, to be honest. Like I, I was impressed. Vrabel's good, all that stuff.

• 59:11Bill Simmons?

  The schedule is gonna, you have the easy schedule that we have because the AFC's got all the, all the easy schedule stuff.

• 59:18Speaker 04

  Here's what happens when you lose a game like that. You start to look back and there's a bit of revisionist history. And so you say like, oh, man, the Dolphins roughing the kicker. We got lucky on that one. The Saints roughing the kicker. Oh yeah, the Ravens game, which we had no business winning. Like, should we actually be two and three? Should we be like, the only definitive win was the Jets game. And every other game, and you have to get lucky and there's always breaks and there's always moments, but it's a little bit. I think we'll be good against the Falcons. And as you said, the schedule is great and I can't believe the Ravens have four losses. And I can't believe the Chiefs have three losses. Like it's right there for us. If it's, it's very similar to my Knicks situation. Like the, the lane is right there.

• 59:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 59:56Speaker 04

  I just don't want them to blow it.

• 59:57Bill Simmons?

  I think that's the single craziest thing about this season is you have this Bills, Chiefs, Ravens, these three teams that just felt like they were going to be running the AFC for the rest of the decade, right? And the Ravens, year from hell, Chiefs. That was just a weird loss. You're up 14-0, you blow the lead, you throw, Mahomes throws, he gets duped by the linebacker on the most obvious, don't throw that pass, pass that like a rookie would get picked on. He gets picked. They get the winning, they get the go ahead touchdown. They can't get a stop. They can't stop Lawrence on third and 10. They can't stop Lawrence on a QB sneak at the end when he loses the ball and he's stumbling around. I thought it was a really weird game by them.

• 1:00:42Speaker 04

  Their luck has dried out. They played too many games. This was bound to happen. I am just worried about the fact like we'll end up being the two seed. The Chargers are going to go on a generational run.

• 1:00:52Bill Simmons?

  No, it won't be the Chargers. They've had too many injuries. I think it's going to be Denver. I think it's going to be Denver.

• 1:00:57Speaker 04

  Denver, Denver's a great call. And then, and then you know what's going to happen? The Ravens are going to squeak into the playoffs and then we're going to have to play them in the first round. And then it's going to be like, oh, Derrick Henry's back and Lamar Jackson's back. And it's never easy for us. We have to get the number one seed. We have to get that bye. We have to get home field advantage.

• 1:01:13Bill Simmons?

  I agree with that. You have to get it. And the problem is the Colts, as weird as this sounds, like they might actually just from a schedule standpoint, be better equipped to get the one seed.

• 1:01:23Speaker 04

  Oh my God.

• 1:01:25Bill Simmons?

  You still have the best player. I still think Josh is the best player. I think he's the best player in the league. And even in that game Sunday night, it was almost in disbelief that we stopped them. With three, with under three minutes left, it's like, oh my God, we stopped them. Couldn't, couldn't believe it. I just thought he would just do Josh stuff and run around and fight guys off and get first downs and we'd lose.

• 1:01:46Speaker 04

  It didn't happen yet. No, listen, I give actually all the, as much as it pains me to say it, Pats played them well. The defense was great.

• 1:01:53Bill Simmons?

  We have a good coach. That, we had the nice, slow game plan. Just trying to keep Josh off the field, just taking points when we could grab it, being physical. It was, the one thing is it wasn't, it didn't feel like an upset. Like your Bills are definitely better, but it felt like the Pats belonged in the game, which was what I wanted to see.

• 1:02:12Speaker 04

  I'm still sick. I'm still sick. Would you not agree this is do or die for McDermott, right? Like I'm tired of getting out coached.

• 1:02:18Bill Simmons?

  I thought last year was, but yeah, I think this year definitely is.

• 1:02:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. I'm tired of seeing them get out coached and the defense is a bit of a problem because I often feel like the defense is like, what are you guys doing? Why can't you stop the run? Why does it feel like the, why does it feel like the run D has been a problem for seven years? Why can't we not figure this out?

• 1:02:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, the Diggs thing, so Diggs only played 30 snaps and he had 12 targets and 10 catches and basically all the big plays any receiver made on the Patriots. And I just don't understand if somebody's gonna, because he's on a pitch count because he's still coming back. If somebody's in the game for 30 snaps, how do you not figure out how to take them out of the game at least a little bit?

• 1:02:57Speaker 04

  And that's his domain. He's defensive coordinator. Our secondary is a bit of a, like Trey White, I love him, but he's getting old. There are, there are, there are issues here. Cole Bishop, issues.

• 1:03:08Bill Simmons?

  I know, some defense stuff. Well, on the flip side, I was on multiple Patriot fan text threads, wondering if we should go after Alvin Kamara.

• 1:03:16Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 1:03:17Bill Simmons?

  That's what, that's where we've landed now with the Pats season. Now we're thinking about like, who can we add? Is there anybody we can add to this mix?

• 1:03:25Speaker 04

  Is there a wide receiver we can add? That's what we need. We need a top dog wide, we need like an alpha. Is there any of those guys out there?

• 1:03:33Bill Simmons?

  I mean, the problem is when, but when you, you're paying the quarterback 50 plus million dollars, it gets really hard to add those guys. You end up like the Bengals where you have, plus you just paid James Cook. I don't think there is.

• 1:03:44Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:03:45Bill Simmons?

  I honestly think you're fine. I just think we took them a little by surprise, the Pats, played a really good game. We didn't have that key turnover in the second half and it was week five. You guys will be fine. If I had to pick an AFC team, I'm still, I would still pick you guys 10 out of 10. You can block, your defense will be healthier.

• 1:04:03Speaker 04

  No one in the, no one in the NFC worries me, honestly. Like there's good, you know, Eagles, they're all, this one will haunt me for a very long time. Like it's right there, figure it out. And you're right, we have the best player in the league, no doubt about it. And I wasn't even actually nervous throughout that game because I was like, oh, Josh is going to figure this out. He's going to pull something like he's Superman. He always figures it out. And that's why when it was over, I was in a state of shock. I couldn't believe it, couldn't believe it, still can't believe it. I was counting the five wins.

• 1:04:30Bill Simmons?

  Before we go, what's the relationship with Dana Wade? I saw you were just in the news for like two days. And I was like, I'll just either text them or find out on the next podcast, what's going on here?

• 1:04:40Speaker 04

  No, it's status quo. He was on the, the Logan Paul impulsive show and they asked him about me and he was like, oh yeah. How's he doing? And my takeaway was it was not sincere. It felt a little mocking in that like, oh yeah. How's that guy doing like whatever happened to him or look how he turned out? That was my interpretation of it.

• 1:04:59Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you know how he turned out? He's right here on a great podcast. We just did an awesome hour. Yes, doing great.

• 1:05:06Speaker 04

  People were so happy about this because they thought, like, I feel like I have a PhD in Dana. And, and, and they thought like, he was actually really curious about how I was doing. And I was like, no, no, no, this was his dismissive way of just being like, I don't want to talk about this right now. I don't want to give him any sort of oxygen. And as I've said before, like if he walked in the room right now, would shake his hand and say like, could we, could we end whatever issue there is here? But luckily I get to do my show, I get to do my work, we get to do Uncrown, we get to have the fighters on like, it's fine. I'm, I'm not in a corner crying, but of course we go through life and you want to have good relationships with people you cover. But that was, that was much ado about nothing. You know what's not much ado about nothing? You know what's not much ado about nothing? The Blue Jays of Toronto, Mr. Bill Simmons.

• 1:05:51Speaker 04

  Is this going to come out before game three? Is this going to come out?

• 1:05:56Speaker 04

  Did you see Vladimir Guerrero's grand slam? Did you see that game on Sunday? Please tell me you saw that.

• 1:06:02Bill Simmons?

  Once the Red Sox get knocked out, all I have left is rooting for the Yankees to lose. So of course I was monitoring everything.

• 1:06:09Speaker 04

  Did you see the 22 year old stud making his fourth career start 10K? I don't know why, I don't know, it was 11K's. I don't know why they took him out in the fifth. I think they were getting a little bit cute, but I, I get it. They want, they didn't want to expose him or whatever. There's something happening here. I'm walking around the streets of New York with my Blue Jays jacket. Unbelievable, right? Who saw this coming?

• 1:06:31Bill Simmons?

  Bichette was your best guy in the second half of the year. I, I thought your, I thought your closer was going to let you down in the playoffs at some point. But if you can still win every game by six to eight runs, you're not going to have to see him.

• 1:06:43Speaker 04

  Who would have thought two games against the Yankees? The least stressful games, like those little moments there, a little bit stressful. There was a bases loaded in the, uh, the, in game one on Saturday with Aaron Judge, a little bit stressful. But I mean, we could waltz into Yankee Stadium tonight and dispose of these guys and talk about a lane as well. Like I, I think that they could beat any team in the, in the playoffs right now. No one's really, you know.

• 1:07:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, you play defense, you don't strike out. You get some timely hits. I still the bullpen for an entire month is what scares me. I had both of those guys on my AL keeper team and I was not Hoffmann and Rodriguez. Never feeling awesome. Yeah.

• 1:07:22Speaker 04

  Every time he comes out Hoffmann, I'm like, yeah.

• 1:07:25Bill Simmons?

  It just can't be easy for you. Ari Hovani, great to see you can, uh, you can, he's got his podcast. Is it every day?

• 1:07:32Speaker 04

  Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, the Ari Hovani Show, uncrowned.com. The number one unbiased platform in all of combat sports. No bias here. We tell it to you like it is.

• 1:07:42Bill Simmons?

  Always great to see you. See you in the White House.

• 1:07:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:07:46Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Carhartt. We spend a lot of time talking about football, the players, the coaches, the big plays, but there's a whole other team we rarely think about, the people who make the game possible, the workers building stadiums, paving parking lots, growing the grass, welding the goalposts, even making the footballs. They're committed to their craft and they're doing the work long before kickoff. Carhartt is proud to outfit those crews. So next time you're watching a game, take a second to appreciate the people behind it. Learn more at carhartt.com/jointhetrades. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle, whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season.

• 1:08:29Bill Simmons?

  Whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're gonna want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, Wesley Morris is here. I saw one battle after another last night. I want to talk about it with you, but there's a movie, this is a really good movie year with a lot of great dialogue, good directors, good actors. One of the big themes that's happened this year is Hollywood is finally starting to figure it out. They're finally moving away from this comic book, just putting suits on people and we're going back to making real IP, trusting directors. So do we 100% believe that? Or do we feel like this was just COVID screwed things up here for a couple of years and

• 1:09:13Bill Simmons?

  now we've actually had time to incubate IP, talent, ideas, movies, and this is just the way it's gonna be now?

• 1:09:24Speaker 05

  You mean where we get a healthy diet of stuff instead of one thing for dinner every night?

• 1:09:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:31Speaker 05

  Um, I hope so. I feel like, so you, wait, you think that this, what we're getting, the reason that things have been, have looked better than they have in the last couple of years is because the pipelines have been clogged from all the strike stuff?

• 1:09:47Bill Simmons?

  Might be the strike stuff, might be the COVID stuff, might be the fact that we were in a little slump with what was getting approved with really talented people going into TV because there was a lot of streaming scripted stuff. Now there's less scripted projects. And just, we're in a nice little run with directors, I think, which I don't think can be understated either. We talked about that the last time you were on about like we have this class of, of directors that have moved into just putting out over and over again really good stuff. But I also feel like there's one other piece, and I don't know if you agree with this, but people like going to the movies again. And I'm not saying they didn't before, but we had that stretch where we were like, oh shit, people are just gonna

• 1:10:32Bill Simmons?

  stay home because the TVs are nicer and they'll just wait. But it's the opposite. Like this, just going to see one bad after another. I had to go see yesterday at 4:30 so I could see it on IMAX. I skipped the Monday night game because it was like, this is in Los Angeles. I was like, there's no other way to see the movie. I want to do a podcast.

• 1:10:50Speaker 05

  See the fourth quarter at least?

• 1:10:51Bill Simmons?

  Well, I had to go back and watch, you know, zoom through it on YouTube TV.

• 1:10:54Speaker 05

  Oh my god. You missed a good fourth quarter.

• 1:10:57Bill Simmons?

  I know, but I just don't feel like this kind of stuff was happening, you know, seven years ago. So what's different?

• 1:11:04Speaker 05

  Um, well, I think there's a kind of trust. Well, I don't know. I mean, well, first of all, there's a few things. There's the public's, like gathering interest once again and going back to the movies. I think that there is, it's still not, I don't know what to do with the stories that get told about what a hit now is. That part is confusing to me. You know, the narratives that get spun around the budgets of these things, whether they're going to become profitable. But what I'm really focused on, I mean, I didn't ask for like something like The Fall guy to cost $200 million, but I know that enough people

• 1:11:49Speaker 05

  went under ordinary circumstances to see that movie to make it a hit in some other age.

• 1:11:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:55Speaker 05

  But I mean, so it isn't that, I mean, what we're talking about, there are a few things. We're talking about actual movie going attendance. We're talking about the quality of the movies we're going to see and having a diversity of, of options when we go.

• 1:12:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, on, on top of that quality though, it's original IP, which is what feels different this year. This is like original start to finish scripts that aren't going to be part of some eight movie sequel that we end up getting over the next 20 years. Just these movies that have a beginning and an end.

• 1:12:27Speaker 05

  Weapons 12.

• 1:12:28Bill Simmons?

  Right, I hope. Anyway, go ahead.

• 1:12:31Speaker 05

  And I, I think that there is, I think that in a weird way, I don't know what's happening at these studios. I think we're getting, we're going to have fewer and fewer of them. But I think there's something about the A24s and Neons of the World being the interesting places where movies that even if people don't want to see them necessarily, they're not getting huge audiences. They're doing, something is going on there culturally, right? These are the movies that have their finger on something and sometimes they're hits. And I think the studios, I think there are people at these movie studios who want

• 1:13:15Speaker 05

  to be a little bit conversant in the weird energy of this moment.

• 1:13:20Bill Simmons?

  So you think in the old days, it was just about, let's make as much money as we possibly can. Now, if you're making decisions at wherever, you also want to be involved in stuff that's part of the conversation. And anecdotally, and you're at a cocktail party and somebody's like, oh, you made that movie? I thought that was fucking awesome. What's interesting about what you said though, is two of the most interesting movies that came out this year were Warner Brothers movies, right? Where they gave Paul Thomas Anderson, I don't know how much money, I don't even really care. But they gave him enough money to go get big stars and make a big action movie. They gave Coogler. The Sinners thing, and they gave him one of the best deals any director's ever gotten. So they got behind it. Warner Brothers was a fucking mess. So the fact that they got involved with two of those movies is a good thing.

• 1:14:05Speaker 05

  I think Weapons is also Warner Brothers.

• 1:14:08Bill Simmons?

  Right. But that's a more conventional, like, horror movies are a safe bet, I think, especially now. Young people go to horror movies.

• 1:14:14Speaker 05

  I think that, I, I'm sort of curious about what, what the state of the horror movie is. You should have Jason Blum come on at some point and, and think this through a little because I, I don't know. I think people want, I think The Conjuring Four, that movie being a hit was indicative of a love of that franchise. But I think, you know, the second Megan movie didn't do that well. And I, I don't know. I think it really depends on the who and the what of the thing. And Weapons, to me, was unconventional in that you didn't really know what you were getting when you got there.

• 1:14:57Speaker 05

  There was no star luring you to it. That was a pure word of, I went and saw that movie, Bill, because people told me to see it. I didn't go to a screening.

• 1:15:07Bill Simmons?

  It's the ultimate word of mouth movie this year.

• 1:15:08Speaker 05

  I got told by multiple people that I need to see Weapons. So I went and-

• 1:15:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but that was happening with TV for 12 years. And now it feels like it's shifting back to movies in a good way, right?

• 1:15:21Speaker 05

  I, I agree. I agree. I think word of mouth, um, I think word of mouth is really important. Now, I don't know, you know, one of the things to think about here is how much these movies cost to make. I don't know-

• 1:15:34Bill Simmons?

  Why do we have to think about it? I don't really care. Like, you mentioned earlier how this has become a narrative, and it was certainly a narrative with Sinners, which was stupid. And it became a narrative with this PTA movie too. And it's like, why do people care about that, but they don't care about what all this other shit costs? How is that even a conversation? Nobody talks about this.

• 1:15:51Speaker 05

  I mean, it's true. And yet I think that the way that the people at the studios are thinking about whether or not to spend XYZ thing on what, on whatever, is how much did they lose making it? And the only reason I'm bringing up the budgets is I'm wondering, do they have to cost this much? Now, I don't know what everything costs, but if we're talking about something that winds up making $120 million, all just like somebody taking a bath on that. Well, but, but why just spend so much? Like, not everything should be Avatar, should be an Avatar movie.

• 1:16:32Speaker 05

  Where this man, apparently you can't give him enough money that he can't make you back. Right?

• 1:16:39Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:16:40Speaker 05

  Um, I, I also think that what makes me mad about these budget conversations is that there's a whole, and I've talked about this before with you, and I know you're with me, but there's a whole universe of movies you could be making for the price of, of one of, you know, just one of these other films.

• 1:17:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:02Speaker 05

  And-

• 1:17:03Bill Simmons?

  Well, these are the movies that we grew up loving in the seventies and eighties.

• 1:17:06Speaker 05

  There's no rewatchables without this level of film. There are, there's just no rewatchables. Right? And I am really worried, and I'm, well, I'm not worried. I'm always worried about like there being no like mid-budget, mid-level, like, um, middlebrow, star-driven movies. But I'm also worried, I'm a little nervous, honestly, you're talking about all these great directors. I'm worried that they're too great. Right? Like, I'm worried that they're too good. Where's the Stephen Frears? Where's the Taylor Hackford? Where's the Lasa Holstrom?

• 1:17:41Bill Simmons?

  Our guy, Taylor Hackford?

• 1:17:42Speaker 05

  Now, these are not, these aren't people that I need to, like, whose movies I need to be seeing all the time. But like, there is like a, where's the, where are the Carl Franklins? Um, you know, I think there's a, there's a tier of person, you know, Joan McLean Silver, Nora Ephron, like, there are people who are really good at doing a particular kind of thing that was never intended to like-

• 1:18:05Bill Simmons?

  Walter Hill.

• 1:18:06Speaker 05

  Dominate, Walter Hill, dominate the box office. Um, and so I, I don't know what it looks like, because you know, TV, those people used to come from TV. And now TV and the movies aesthetically, they're almost indistinguishable from each other.

• 1:18:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, I wonder like with the, with the way the TV seasons have shortened?

• 1:18:28Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:28Bill Simmons?

  Where, like, if you're Brad Inglesby, I really liked Task, we've been covering on the Prestige TV.

• 1:18:34Speaker 05

  You got me to wa, there's, there's a movie, there's a show you got me to watch. I would never have watched that show.

• 1:18:40Bill Simmons?

  So that's an eight-episode show, and it's gonna have a beginning, and maybe they'll figure out a season two that will be a different thing, which, you know, on paper is the higher upside, because you can take this one piece of IP you had, and instead of making a two-hour movie with it- You could potentially get three, four seasons out of something like White Lotus would be the best example of that. Right. White Lotus could have just been a movie and instead they blew it out into this big. Now it's just going to go on forever. So I wonder like.

• 1:19:06Speaker 05

  God help us all.

• 1:19:08Bill Simmons?

  There was a while there where it was like, it actually makes more sense to push your best ideas toward the streamers. But now I feel like it makes more sense to, to push them to movies.

• 1:19:19Speaker 05

  Come back to the movies.

• 1:19:20Bill Simmons?

  The streamers, who knows, it might take them two years to make a show. They might decide they don't like it after a year. I'd rather make a movie.

• 1:19:28Speaker 05

  Now I am confused about some things though, Bill.

• 1:19:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:31Speaker 05

  Like for instance, um, I don't know what to do with the fact that Bong Joon Ho's first movie after winning all those Oscars for Parasite. Was Mickey 17 with Robert Pattinson, a movie I enjoyed, really strange movie. Nobody went.

• 1:19:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:48Speaker 05

  Nobody went. So I don't know if that's a marketing concern. I don't know if people didn't know it. It was out there and they, you know, they didn't know to go see it.

• 1:19:57Bill Simmons?

  The nobody went.

• 1:19:59Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:19:59Bill Simmons?

  Cause I think it's this simple and you mentioned horror before, how horror is coming back. So I talked to my daughter about this because she and my son, they both go to every horror movie. They love going to horror movies, but comedies are not back.

• 1:20:11Speaker 05

  There are no making them.

• 1:20:13Bill Simmons?

  Horror and comedy used to be dead even in the eighties and nineties. And then something flipped and in this decade comedies kind of drift toward like that friendship with Tim Robinson. Where it comes out, doesn't do that well. And then it kind of lives on for a couple of years. People rent it. People watch it on whatever. Horror movies, people want to go in the theater. They want to sit around other people and be scared. And I really think this is a post-COVID thing. We've had horror since the, the Exorcist and Psycho. It's not like this is a new genre. But I think to get people to go to the theater, you really need that extra gimmick now. And I think people are starting to figure that out. It's almost like in basketball and people started to figure out.

• 1:20:52Bill Simmons?

  You gotta shoot more threes. You just gotta game the system. If you shoot more threes, there's better spacing. You get long rebounds off the threes. And with these movies, it's like, all right, how do we get people to the theater? Well, horror gets them. They like going to the theater, sitting around other people being scared. IMAX, an awesome, this is why PTA, everybody, everybody's like, you gotta see it in the theater. You gotta see it on IMAX. You gotta see it on IMAX. You gotta see it on IMAX. That wasn't the case. Think about 15 years ago, how clumsy that was with the 3D. It was like, this is the next big thing. It's like, is it? Everyone I know hates this.

• 1:21:26Speaker 05

  Well, it only worked for Avatar, right?

• 1:21:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and not for 20 other movies.

• 1:21:31Speaker 05

  Right, right, right. But I think that, I mean, but just to take your, your three-point shot metaphor someplace else. I mean, I've heard so many conversations between and among you and, and the basketball people, many different people, really thinking philosophically about whether that shot is good for, for basketball.

• 1:21:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:58Speaker 05

  Right? Like, all the ways in which it has changed the game enough so that the things that once were pleasurable about it have, have been deprioritized, where really the three is, is an, is an easier shot.

• 1:22:11Bill Simmons?

  It's formulaic.

• 1:22:12Speaker 05

  Right. And it's, you know, it kind of, it is a little bit dramatic and it, you know, in the right moment, it's the clutchest shot because you were farther back and you, the, the shot went in and it just seemed, you know, there is a degree of difficulty at operation here. But at the end of the day, the thing that's really gonna get most of your points is going into the paint and, and shooting from there. So I'm worried that people are trying to, like, do these, shoot threes, you know, and to not take a different set of risks by getting elbowed in the head.

• 1:22:48Bill Simmons?

  So what are the different set of risks that we're not doing right now?

• 1:22:52Speaker 05

  I mean, I think we've really gotta get these movie stars in some basic schmear sick movies. And I don't, and you've just gotta spend the marketing money to persuade people that that's where they wanna be. I think going, I, I, I'm really, really still struck by how nobody has followed up on that Glenn Powell and, and Sydney Sweeney romantic comedy that became a sleeper. Because any, anybody, anyone but you, or anybody but you, like.

• 1:23:21Bill Simmons?

  Not a great movie.

• 1:23:22Speaker 05

  No, but it doesn't be see, see, you know better than that, Bill.

• 1:23:27Bill Simmons?

  Didn't matter.

• 1:23:28Speaker 05

  It doesn't have to be great.

• 1:23:29Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to hang with them for a hundred minutes.

• 1:23:30Speaker 05

  That's all. That's all I want.

• 1:23:31Bill Simmons?

  I don't care what situations are.

• 1:23:33Speaker 05

  Doesn't matter. I am shocked that Glenn Powell, I mean Glenn Powell, I guess is writing his own ticket now. Right? So, but, but doing this thing, this Eli Manning thing, um, wherever it's streaming, I can't even remember now.

• 1:23:48Bill Simmons?

  Hulu.

• 1:23:49Speaker 05

  This, this Chad, what's his face? I, I, sure, I'd have no problem with that.

• 1:23:54Bill Simmons?

  I, I honestly, I think he agreed to that before he blew up as a movie star.

• 1:23:58Speaker 05

  Interesting. I believe that.

• 1:24:00Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if, I don't know if he's agreeing to do this now. I think they really lucked out. Get buying in on him a little early and his star rose and they already had the project going, which is great for them.

• 1:24:10Speaker 05

  But I think that there is a, there is like, there are like 24 people.

• 1:24:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:16Speaker 05

  Um, who, who right now, if somebody just backed them and they weren't playing famous people. They weren't, they're not doing biopics, for instance, like, you know, poor Jerry, Jeremy Allen White. Like, I don't know what else this guy has. I mean, because they keep asking him to play these mopey, downbeat. People I like, what else can he do?

• 1:24:40Bill Simmons?

  You didn't want him as short, mopey Bruce Springsteen?

• 1:24:44Speaker 05

  Man, that movie, I, it just really bugged me out. You're not going to see it?

• 1:24:49Bill Simmons?

  Not seeing it.

• 1:24:50Speaker 05

  I don't blame you. It's like, it's just such a.

• 1:24:52Bill Simmons?

  I'm also done with the biopics.

• 1:24:54Speaker 05

  I, well, listen, I've been done for 20 years with these movies, but.

• 1:24:57Bill Simmons?

  Wait, go ahead.

• 1:24:59Speaker 05

  I, I just feel like there are, there are like two dozen people who like, like of. Men, women, racially interesting, like mix of people.

• 1:25:11Speaker 05

  Who could definitely be stars, you know?

• 1:25:17Bill Simmons?

  Like Tiana Taylor.

• 1:25:18Speaker 05

  I mean, Tiana Taylor, but again, like, it's really about the casting. What is the, what is the portfolio of roles this person could do? This is a person who cut her teeth in a, in, well, cut, cut a teeth, took a big bite of a, out of a Tyler Perry movie. And is the thing I most remember about that film. She can do, she can't do anything, but like she's, she is a star. There's a stariness about her. And she will figure out what can and cannot be done if you give her the parts. I don't know, there's just Chase Infinity, I mean, we just to like, stay in the, in the P T Anderson world for a second. Chase Infinity, that person can do, I'd be curious to see what else they can do.

• 1:26:04Speaker 05

  I feel like.

• 1:26:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, we saw him presumed innocent. And it took me a half hour to realize it was the same person.

• 1:26:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's, that's a bad use of Chase Infinity. She's not.

• 1:26:14Bill Simmons?

  I will say this, remember we saw, we saw one of the Planet of the Apes movies together in L A. Right?

• 1:26:22Bill Simmons?

  And it was with Franco, it was fine, right? It was, it was two hours, it was fine.

• 1:26:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:26:28Bill Simmons?

  If that movie's happening in twenty five, twenty six, I think they're spending more money on how they shoot it. I think they really care about the experience of going. It's gonna be on I max, it's gonna be much cooler. I don't know if that's a bad thing.

• 1:26:42Speaker 05

  No, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I think that the, the only thing I care about. Cause I just think that the thing that you're talking about, this new, this new three is just replacing what the comic book movie was doing. With, with, with premium material in a lot of ways. But it is training us to not be comfortable sitting through a movie where The Rock is doing nothing more than suffer.

• 1:27:15Speaker 05

  Right? I mean, I'll admit that like, this is a hard ask for a lot of people. I don't love The Smashing Machine as a movie, but I think he is very good in it. But I think, I also wonder whether or not it's possible to, to get, to lure people back if you put, I mean, I don't want to think about anybody over the age of 40 right now. I want to think about younger people because that's really, I mean, our favorite stars, one of their first peaks happens between the age of like 19 and 24, right? Like Eddie Murphy's first peak is he's a kid.

• 1:27:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:53Speaker 05

  Um, and I think now's the time to be investing in, in younger people getting a lot of at bats to see if there's any stardom there.

• 1:28:04Bill Simmons?

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• 1:28:48Bill Simmons?

  comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performers joggers, oh yeah. They have the perfect, I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the Meta Pant, that's my number one, I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at viori.com/simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Well, it's interesting because that ties in. I want to talk about Sean Penn with you and then I want to talk about, uh,

• 1:29:14Speaker 05

  Not after 40.

• 1:29:17Bill Simmons?

  No, but Sean Penn had an interesting old school career where he made a lot of stuff and didn't really necessarily care if any of them was, was, you know, sometimes he went for like, he'd like, he made colors. Like he clearly thought that could be a big movie, but then he would do all these other ones. Um,

• 1:29:36Bill Simmons?

  One bad after another, the Sean Penn performance is so crazy. And so distinct and so fucking batshit. And it made me think like, Sean Penn's been in my life. So I don't know, since I remember you're going back to Taps and Fast Times and Bad Boys. Bad Boys was one of my first favorite movies.

• 1:29:59Bill Simmons?

  But I was thinking about the six stages of Sean Penn that I wanted to go with you really quick.

• 1:30:02Speaker 05

  Six stages?

• 1:30:03Bill Simmons?

  Six stages of Sean Penn.

• 1:30:05Speaker 05

  Okay, let's go.

• 1:30:07Bill Simmons?

  Coolest eighties guy from that huge California class, right? It was Hutton had the Oscar. Cruise was like the super hard worker overachiever. Lowe was the handsome guy. Sheen, Estevez and Cage were the legacy kids. And then Penn was-

• 1:30:25Speaker 05

  But Cage is like a different, Cage is something else too.

• 1:30:27Bill Simmons?

  Related to Coppola's like-

• 1:30:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:30:29Bill Simmons?

  And then, and then Penn was the one. And they all came up together and there was more in the group, but they all come up together. But Penn was the one where they were like, that guy's gonna win Oscars. And that's, that's where he kinda started. But then he does Taps, Fast Times and Bad Boys. And Fast Times and Bad Boys, he's so different in those, really like, oh wow, something's here. He's in Falcon and the Snowman, Racing with the Moon, At Close Range, Shanghai Surprise and starts to go sideways because

• 1:30:57Bill Simmons?

  he marries Madonna.

• 1:30:58Speaker 05

  It becomes a tabloid fixture, yep.

• 1:31:00Bill Simmons?

  Fights with photographers and becomes this whole character. So now it's like, all right, what is he? Is he, so that's the sec, that's like the second stage. He's like Bad Boy meets Brando. Then he goes, he has this late eighties, nineties run. Where he doesn't win an Oscar, but he has the ascent. He's in Colors, he's in Casualties of War.

• 1:31:18Speaker 05

  Oh, right.

• 1:31:18Bill Simmons?

  Carlito's Way, State of Grace, Dead Man Walking. Like he's, he's playing real characters. Everybody's different. He looks different in each movie. He's not doing buddy cop movies. He's not doing action franchises. He's not doing comedies. At some point, he ends up with Robin right here, who is the most beautiful person in the world, coming off Princess Brad. And then moves into this mid nineties through 2002 stage, which was fascinating because now he's dining off being Sean Penn. Like he's, he's in The Game, he's in She's So Lovely, he's in U-Turn, he's in Hurly Burly, Thin Red Line, being John Malkovich. He's in all these weird movies, but he's also like, he does, he's on SNL, he does this segment with David Spade where he gives him a tattoo.

• 1:32:00Bill Simmons?

  He's on Larry Sanders, he's on Ellen, he's on Friends. He's like kind of playing the hothead persona, but he's also still Sean Penn. He's working with good directors. But he's kind of trying to win an Oscar too, because he does that I Am Sam movie, which is one of the worst movies of the last 25 years, right? Then we move into the Oscars decade, stage five. Mystic River wins it. He's in 21 Grams, Interpreter, All the Kingsman, then wins again in Milk, for Milk in 2009. Now he's just cemented. And for the last 15 years, I don't even know how to describe whatever stage he is. I had him on my podcast, I think in 2019. He floats in and out. It's cool to see him. I don't think he can carry a movie

• 1:32:44Bill Simmons?

  anymore, but he can also be in a movie like this where he can just feel like every time he's in a scene, he's the most important person. So what is he now? And has there been a career like this? Because I can't think of another one.

• 1:32:58Speaker 05

  Well, first of all, I would, I don't want to answer your question with a question, but I will ask you this, because it's gonna be, it's gonna help frame how we talk about him a little bit, which is, is he, or was he ever a movie star? Right? Because-

• 1:33:18Bill Simmons?

  So what's the definition of movie stars? Like, could he not-

• 1:33:20Speaker 05

  A person, it's very simple. Did we, did we vote to pay to see this person in a movie?

• 1:33:29Bill Simmons?

  I think we did for a while, and then he needed help to be a star. He needed to be in the game with Fincher, with Michael Douglas. He kind of hit that point.

• 1:33:39Speaker 05

  I think-

• 1:33:42Speaker 05

  What happened, and I think, I think this is phase, phase four.

• 1:33:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:47Speaker 05

  Um, where he.

• 1:33:48Bill Simmons?

  Mid nineties.

• 1:33:49Speaker 05

  Where he does that batch of movies where he's some older actor's sidekick, brother, protege, something.

• 1:34:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:01Speaker 05

  Um, and he gets to be a little, he gets to be a character actor, which is what I had assumed he'd always wanted. He did not want us to know he was hot, right?

• 1:34:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:12Speaker 05

  He didn't, he seemed to like really resist being found attractive. Um, and.

• 1:34:21Bill Simmons?

  Even though he dated Madonna at the peak of her powers and then went right to Robin Wright.

• 1:34:26Speaker 05

  But taste is not the same thing as kind of being ashamed of something about yourself. Cause at the same time, you know, he was always really physically fit.

• 1:34:41Speaker 05

  He, and he only seemed to get fitter. Like the problem with Milk is if Harvey Milk was that built.

• 1:34:49Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:34:51Speaker 05

  As the mayor of San Francisco.

• 1:34:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:54Speaker 05

  That relationship would never have lasted. I'd be, come on.

• 1:34:58Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:34:58Speaker 05

  Like, I don't know. I just, it just, you know, he, he's just like a really fascinating person because I think the Madonna relationship.

• 1:35:09Speaker 05

  I don't know what he would say the love of your life answer would be, but hers is him, right? Like when, when, I think it's truth or dare.

• 1:35:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. She talks about it.

• 1:35:21Speaker 05

  Somebody like one of the, one of the dancers, they're playing truth, they're playing truth or dare. And the answer to, to one of the, one of the truths or dares is, you know, the love of your life is who? And it's, she says Sean. And I think that period was tumultuous for, for at least, you know, from the standpoint of the person who got dragged to the supermarket by his mom and could see the magazines and there are pictures all over them, Madonna's and Sean Penn's. I think that period is the, is the one, is it sort of changed him. I think it changed his interest in, in being famous or being a movie star.

• 1:36:04Bill Simmons?

  Which explains some of the choices, right?

• 1:36:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:36:08Bill Simmons?

  And he just seemed like he wanted to work with awesome co-stars, really good directors. He kind of did what we talked about with Leo, where he starts checking boxes. He's worked with Fincher, he's working with De Palma, he's working with, you know, Oliver Stone, on and on and on.

• 1:36:24Bill Simmons?

  And, uh, and then he, the last 15 years, and we always talk about this with Cruz, like, what do you want to be when you hit a certain age? You can't be a leading man anymore. I actually like some of the choices he's made, whereas Cruz is just, ah, I gotta, I gotta do Mission Impossible again. It's like, could Cruz have been this character? Would he have ever in a million years tried to do it? He wouldn't have.

• 1:36:50Speaker 05

  Well, I think.

• 1:36:51Bill Simmons?

  I think Damon would have.

• 1:36:53Speaker 05

  Matt Damon?

• 1:36:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:55Speaker 05

  Oh, Matt Damon.

• 1:36:56Bill Simmons?

  A few actors that would have said, fuck it, I'll do that character. I think there's others who would have been like, I'm out.

• 1:37:00Speaker 05

  I think, but what you need for this one thing after another, sorry, one battle after, keep calling it one thing after another, what you need for this one battle after another part is somebody who has an innate sexiness and has an innate sexiness that, that the actor understands or has access to, right? And is not afraid, this is the first time he's actually done this, right? Where he's wielded it, but he can, I think the permission that he has to wield it in this way is that, you know, he's in the satire part of the movie, right?

• 1:37:44Speaker 05

  His part of the movie is the joke half that meets the, the dangerous, um, political half, right? I mean, not that his side isn't political.

• 1:37:54Bill Simmons?

  But the satire part in his first scene is not satire. That's like a pure, I, we're gonna try not to spoil the movie because we're talking about the tail end, but it's, it's like a very sexually charged scene.

• 1:38:04Speaker 05

  The bathroom sequence where she's planning the bomb?

• 1:38:07Bill Simmons?

  No, when she, the first time she goes in on him with the gun and makes him get a boner.

• 1:38:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I mean, I don't know. I found that funny.

• 1:38:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but I'm just saying they had like chemistry.

• 1:38:20Speaker 05

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:38:22Bill Simmons?

  I think that would have been a pretty weird Tom Cruise scene.

• 1:38:24Speaker 05

  I, you know, I mean, I'm having a lot of conversations about this movie with, with, you know, with black women in my life. And, um, I think, you know, there, there's a lot of conversation about being, you know, disappointed in this movie, wanting better for the women in it. Mostly that conversation is happening around Tiana Taylor, but you know, there's also an entire history of black women in American movies, just to leave it at that. That this film is correspondent with, but also contributing to the problem of in some way,

• 1:39:09Speaker 05

  goes, goes the, goes some of the conversation. And I think that one of the uncomfortable things is just a, one of the uncomfortable things for some people, I'm gonna extrapolate here, is a problem of this chemistry question and how the two of them, that, that is, that is real energy happening in those scenes.

• 1:39:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:42Speaker 05

  And I don't know how they gave him the boner. You know, I don't know how, what they affixed it. I don't know what they put in his pants to make us understand that this guy's got a cartoon boner.

• 1:39:55Speaker 05

  But I don't.

• 1:39:56Bill Simmons?

  Want a top, top five cartoon boners?

• 1:39:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:39:59Bill Simmons?

  Anchorman? We'll do that later. I'll work on that list for.

• 1:40:02Speaker 05

  Um, but I think that sexual connection is really palpable.

• 1:40:08Bill Simmons?

  I, so it made me think like, I kinda wish he had explored that in a couple of other movies. Like, can you imagine him?

• 1:40:15Speaker 05

  I don't think.

• 1:40:15Bill Simmons?

  I was gonna basic instinct for this, but can you imagine him in the Michael Douglas role with Sharon Stone? I think he could've done it. He never.

• 1:40:22Speaker 05

  Stop it, Bill. I'm standing up. Talk about a, talk about a, talk about a tent in your pants.

• 1:40:26Bill Simmons?

  Cartoon boner.

• 1:40:27Speaker 05

  Woo! But, I mean, but you know, there is, it would've been too real in a weird way, cause Michael Douglas was, that was part of Michael Douglas's story, right?

• 1:40:36Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:40:37Speaker 05

  Basic Instinct was a, was a chapter in the, in the persecuted a white male story. There's a great book out now about Michael Douglas.

• 1:40:44Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:40:45Speaker 05

  And American masculinity that's really, really fascinating, entertaining. I will, I'll, I'll remember it as we talk, what it's called.

• 1:40:52Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:40:52Speaker 05

  Um, but it's just a great piece of criticism. I, I, um,

• 1:40:59Speaker 05

  I think that Sean Penn would've been interesting in a, in a variety of other people's roles. I think the thing that makes him feel comfortable doing this one is, what is he, is he 60 now?

• 1:41:11Bill Simmons?

  He's older than that. I mean, he was 1981 is in taps.

• 1:41:15Speaker 05

  Alright, so he's 65, let's say.

• 1:41:17Bill Simmons?

  He's over 60.

• 1:41:18Speaker 05

  I think being, I think being older, I think being, and looking older. I think him not having changed his face.

• 1:41:29Bill Simmons?

  65.

• 1:41:30Speaker 05

  Is really important. I think him being as fit as he is, and being as old looking as he is, weathered is really the word that we're looking for here.

• 1:41:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:42Speaker 05

  I think there's something liberating in terms of what he can allow himself to do. And I really, really think there's a trust with Paul Thomas Anderson that, that the things he's doing in this movie will be conveyed to an audience as, as comical and, and laughable in some way. And I think that is, that is allowing him to go as far off the deep end as he goes in this movie.

• 1:42:07Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're gonna spend the last 15 minutes here talking about one battle after another. You've already given your takes. I'm gonna give some of mine and you can react to them.

• 1:42:15Speaker 05

  I receive them.

• 1:42:16Bill Simmons?

  There will be, uh, there will be a couple spoilers here. So if people haven't seen this, feel free to end the podcast right here and you can come back later. Um, you know, obviously I've had season tickets for PTA since seeing Boogie Nights in Boston, Massachusetts, whatever year that was.

• 1:42:35Speaker 05

  1998.

• 1:42:37Bill Simmons?

  Seventy.

• 1:42:37Speaker 05

  97.

• 1:42:38Bill Simmons?

  Whatever it was.

• 1:42:42Bill Simmons?

  He, there's something about the performances he gets from actors that's like his superpower. And I don't care what movie it is, but he has had over and over again for the last 30 years, the ability to extract something awesome out of really good actors.

• 1:42:56Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:42:57Bill Simmons?

  And I'd love to, I'd love to read a piece about it, a feature. What is it? What is it about him on the set? What does he see? How does he cast these people in his brain? Even going back to Burt Reynolds and Boogie Nights, Burt Reynolds' career was over. And somehow he figured out, like, how do I extract Jack Horner out of Burt Reynolds? And he figured it out. So when you think about, not only did he with Sean Penn, not only did he with T N and Taylor, who already has, obviously has the talent, um, but just all through the movie, just everybody's really good.

• 1:43:26Speaker 05

  Everybody's really good.

• 1:43:28Bill Simmons?

  And all this, all the scenes, all the shots, like the, the reason a ride for movies like this, and especially his movies, like everything is so painstakingly thought out and well done and just like top of the line. So I really appreciated that. So I have that. Um, the crazy Sean Penn performance, it's so nuts. It's just like, this movie's almost three hours. And you're just like, I just can't believe what's going on with this. Um, I thought, so we go to the highway when it spreads out, but this is like the reason you have to see the IMAX.

• 1:44:02Speaker 05

  This is why you go to the IMAX.

• 1:44:03Bill Simmons?

  This is, there's a 45 minute stretch here.

• 1:44:06Speaker 05

  This is it. This is it.

• 1:44:07Bill Simmons?

  That's really breathtaking. I mean, you could, you could watch the first two hours wherever, but you kind of have to see that. And it's, it's really cool. Like it's, it's one of the most memorable things I've seen in a theater. You're just like, gee, when we're going up and down those hills, it's like, is this real? What is this? It's, it's just, uh, it was just the most captivating. So much like, think about all the stupid money we spend on CGI and fucking like, this is like, I would so much rather watch this. I thought I was so impressed.

• 1:44:37Speaker 05

  I would so much rather watch this.

• 1:44:39Bill Simmons?

  Some of the stuff with the current moment that everybody's been talking about with the movie, how it captured something, I'm a little confused by that because the first part of the movie, it takes place in the like 2007, eight range, but I think it like inadvertently captures the moment now.

• 1:44:55Speaker 05

  You don't know where, you don't know where in time you are when it starts.

• 1:44:58Bill Simmons?

  No, but it, but it, it's an outcome of the movie, right? And it's a really cool outcome. But it's also like, it's not like he's like a year ago, he's like, I'm writing this. Like, he's been working on this forever. It almost reminded me of, not only the movie I could think about, I mean, I'm sure there's been others, but it reminded me of like when I was a kid, the China Syndrome came out.

• 1:45:17Speaker 05

  Oh, sure.

• 1:45:18Bill Simmons?

  And it was right when everybody was starting to panic about nuclear war. And then this movie came out about a nuclear reactor and it's just like, all the pieces came together, but the, the actual movie's not that good, but it was like an Oscar contender, but it was really like the moment that drove it. I feel like there's a little more going on here.

• 1:45:35Speaker 05

  You think the moment is, this moment is driving the conversation around this movie?

• 1:45:41Bill Simmons?

  I think it's one of, it's one of the thing. I think it's one of the things. I don't think it's the number one reason because it's a really good Paul Thomas Anderson movie with major stars in it that's, you know, exhilarating to watch.

• 1:45:53Speaker 05

  There's another thing, there's another part of, well, you keep going, keep going, keep going.

• 1:45:57Bill Simmons?

  No, give me your other part.

• 1:45:58Speaker 05

  Well, I just think that there's, I think that this is a movie initially set in Los Angeles by a guy who lives in Los Angeles and has been seeing what has been happening to the city and wondering why his fellow artists aren't doing more to capture it. And I think that he's thinking both locally and nationally. And I also wonder, this is the first movie that he's made in the present.

• 1:46:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:29Speaker 05

  In, in a long time. And I, I think Punch Drunk Love might be the, by the last, might be the last movie he's set in the present. And I Interesting, you're right. And I, I, I don't know what like picking up and dropping off the kids looks like for him. But you know, being, being in some part of Los Angeles on a somewhat regular basis, you're just kind of like, this is a tragedy. There's like tragedy happening everywhere for no reason other than greed, selfishness, blindness, uh, like what, how, what, what, what is that connected to?

• 1:47:09Speaker 05

  So this man is thinking systemically. These systemic problems have been with us for a long time. And I have never faulted his films for not paying attention to the present. Although I always get a little nervous when movies want to spend all their time in the past because it means you are scared of what's happening now. This is a movie that is not afraid and to the, to the, with respect to like the, like the really important, fascinating, like persuasive conversations happening around the, the, the many, many black women in this movie. I think that it is trying to start something and acknowledge that something is happening

• 1:47:54Speaker 05

  without necessarily caring about getting anything right, if that makes sense. Um, I think it really wants to capture an energy. And if, if some characters wind up less developed than others,

• 1:48:11Speaker 05

  it's a, it's a side effect of, of, of, of the attempt to capture this energy. But I don't think this movie is disrespectful. I mean, we can talk about like what, like how people feel about the depiction of the black women in it, but like, I don't think it's being, I don't think it's being done in bad faith. But I also think it's like, it is fun and useful and illuminating to think about this movie as a, both a work of racial politics and racial movie politics.

• 1:48:45Bill Simmons?

  Well, you just, this leads to my biggest flaw in the movie. And the thing that I left the theater kind of being mad about, even though I thought I was glad I went. I had a great time. And I didn't think the movie, I was surprised. People are like, this is a masterpiece that got there. I thought that was a major flaw in the movie and it was the Tiana Taylor character.

• 1:49:04Speaker 05

  Wow, well, then I can give you four phone numbers.

• 1:49:09Speaker 05

  Well, of people who would love to hear from you. Join the conversation.

• 1:49:14Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:49:16Bill Simmons?

  She, she murders an innocent guard in the bank for reasons that remain unclear. I'm doing full spoiler alert now. She has this crazy affair with Sean Penn, even though she's with Leo.

• 1:49:29Speaker 05

  Well, we should be clearer about like Sean Penn raging military racist.

• 1:49:34Bill Simmons?

  Whatever, like she, whatever, but she's carrying, probably carrying her kid, doesn't tell Leo about it. She rats out all of her friends and gets a lot of them killed. Right? That's the thing that happens. Like she sells all of them out. She ditches her baby. It disappears and then even disappears on Sean Penn. There's not a redeeming thing about her by the time she leaves the movie. And then spoiler alert, we come all the way around to the end. We've, we have the, he saved his daughter, the whole thing. And then it's like, here, mom wrote this letter. And she's like, I think about you every day. It's like, I've already decided you're a terrible person. With all the choices you made, you're not winning me back with this letter to your daughter that you ditched

• 1:50:19Bill Simmons?

  when she was a baby and she couldn't take care of herself. And I just like, I couldn't, I thought it was such a flaw. I couldn't get over it.

• 1:50:27Speaker 05

  I think that you're identifying like some of the majorist criticisms, criticisms of this movie, which is, you know, you have this, you're going to give us this badass black revolutionary who then proceeds to.

• 1:50:50Speaker 05

  Complete a checklist of all the things, all the problems that the movies have given black women, all of the sort of conservative

• 1:51:01Speaker 05

  disrespects, stereotypes that have been built, you know, to

• 1:51:08Speaker 05

  judge, deny, erase black women and black womanhood from, from American life.

• 1:51:18Bill Simmons?

  Well, answer me this, is this movie, is it better without the letter? Like, let's just not have the letter, is this movie still work?

• 1:51:26Speaker 05

  What's the letter doing for you?

• 1:51:28Bill Simmons?

  It's trying to make it seem like, oh, she did feel bad the whole time. It's like, I've already, I've given up on her.

• 1:51:34Speaker 05

  I, you know,

• 1:51:35Bill Simmons?

  I don't need to hear from her again.

• 1:51:37Speaker 05

  To me, I think this, this is a really interesting

• 1:51:44Speaker 05

  question about creative tension.

• 1:51:48Speaker 05

  Because I, what I wonder

• 1:51:53Speaker 05

  is almost philosophical here. Which is, at what point does a character stop being a representation of something? And begin being an individual human who makes shitty decisions? And if you allow this character, Profidia Beverly Hills, that, I do not think that's the name on her birth certificate, by the way.

• 1:52:19Speaker 05

  Cause you meet her, you meet her mother and an aunt, and I just don't believe that woman is calling this chick.

• 1:52:24Bill Simmons?

  What's the difference between a shitty decision and a reprehensible decision? Because I would say ratting out all your friends so they get killed is, is way up there.

• 1:52:34Speaker 05

  I understand that, but this is a thing that happens in revolutions. I just want to be clear. This is not, this is not like,

• 1:52:41Bill Simmons?

  I was done with her at that point. Not to mention ditching your daughter.

• 1:52:44Speaker 05

  That's fine, Bill. That's, I mean, yes. But what I'm, what I'm wondering is,

• 1:52:53Speaker 05

  Paul Thomas Anderson writes this fictional character who does the reprehensible.

• 1:53:01Speaker 05

  And, and then exits, right? Like, it's not like you have to spend the rest of the movie. She has essentially exiled herself from the proceedings.

• 1:53:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, 35 minutes in, she's gone.

• 1:53:13Speaker 05

  And I think that the time that passes, we're talking about 16 years, basically,

• 1:53:20Speaker 05

  of time for her to think about the life that she's currently living and the life she abandoned. I think I, I received this character as human before I received her as a stereotype.

• 1:53:36Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:53:37Speaker 05

  And I think that terrible choices were made, but I also think that that's a long enough time to regret having made them. Who knows? She could be going to therapy or wherever she is. She could have found, she could have started a new family and, and, and, and starting that new family, come to appreciate, is she fucked up? I don't know. But these are the things that the generosity of the spirit in which this movie was made allow me to think about.

• 1:54:07Bill Simmons?

  So you're pro?

• 1:54:11Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:54:12Bill Simmons?

  Does she, should she have written letters to the families of, of her former colleagues that she got either murdered or jailed?

• 1:54:19Speaker 05

  We don't know she didn't. We don't know she didn't.

• 1:54:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I don't know. She just didn't work for me. I left the theater thing like, really? The letter? That's, that's how we ended this?

• 1:54:27Speaker 05

  I'm not here to convince you, but what I love about talking about this movie, especially this character.

• 1:54:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:34Speaker 05

  Is that there are options to, for, for a response to her and her behavior.

• 1:54:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:41Speaker 05

  And I think, I don't know why it's her, Bill. Honestly, I don't. I think on the one hand, we are so starved for somebody to take a black woman seriously in any capacity, that it really felt like this one was maybe trying to. And then at some point, like a segment of the moviegoing population that has seen this film has just got off that train because it, they didn't feel that's what was being offered and that's what was transpiring. I found this woman and her energy utterly exhilarating.

• 1:55:16Bill Simmons?

  But that's a key point. That's why I cared. And that's why this movie matters because this is a fictional character and a fictional movie. And at the end, I'm like really disappointed. You know, that that she's like trying to win them back with a letter because I've already decided she'd already brought out such a visceral response. That, you know, that's why it's a good movie. I, the only other nitpick I had that that my opinion matters is I just didn't think the movie was funny. And I had people in the theater where half the people were laughing, half the people weren't. But PTA is somebody who has done some of the funniest stuff in like drama type movies, like the stuff in Boogie Nights is one of my favorite things. It's really like a genuinely funny movie.

• 1:56:00Speaker 05

  Phantom Thread.

• 1:56:02Bill Simmons?

  Phantom Thread is another one. I just didn't think that Christmas, I thought it was kind of lazy. The Christmas Adventures, like, oh, the, you know, the, I don't know. It just didn't work for me.

• 1:56:12Speaker 05

  I think the dread in those sequences is so intense. And I think that like the, I mean, the playing of it for comedy.

• 1:56:25Bill Simmons?

  But it wasn't, wasn't funny, though.

• 1:56:27Speaker 05

  I guess, yeah, I mean, I like.

• 1:56:31Speaker 05

  It's an atmospheric comedy. I mean, it's funny. Like, I don't know why I feel like I'm the person who's got to stand up for this movie. Like, lots of people love it. Like, it does not need me. But, but I, but I, I actually did find those sequences.

• 1:56:45Bill Simmons?

  No, no, these are my two nitpicks.

• 1:56:47Speaker 05

  I, I actually did find The Christmas Adventures funny in some way because

• 1:56:53Speaker 05

  I think there's something really

• 1:56:57Speaker 05

  like dramatically comical in this history of, um.

• 1:57:06Bill Simmons?

  The secret backdoor societies.

• 1:57:09Speaker 05

  Well, no, no, white men's attraction to black people.

• 1:57:16Speaker 05

  And like whiteness's inability to

• 1:57:22Speaker 05

  to just love people without like black people especially without also having to perform contempt for them.

• 1:57:33Speaker 05

  And you know, I think this movie is coming from a really deep place.

• 1:57:39Speaker 05

  If not in the person who made it, then certainly in

• 1:57:45Speaker 05

  the environment, and this isn't an environment this person understands in some way. And I think for now, the way that he's handling it is to laugh at it. I don't know what he does after this, but I mean, I think for now, the juxtaposition of these, they're not idiots. These are like powerful, smart people who also are almost satirically wielding their racism to

• 1:58:17Speaker 05

  keep their, their end of the country pure.

• 1:58:21Bill Simmons?

  Well, this is the thing. So I said this before we got on and then you have to go because you have to run to a screening.

• 1:58:27Speaker 05

  I have to go to Lincoln Center.

• 1:58:30Bill Simmons?

  My whole thing is I want to see this movie a couple more times. I think this is like one of those.

• 1:58:37Speaker 05

  Oh, yes.

• 1:58:38Bill Simmons?

  Like Sinners, right away, I'm like, I'm in. I know this movie is going to be in my life. I know how it made me feel. I love this movie. This one, I'm like, I feel like three years from now, I'm going to be noticing things that I missed the first time I saw it, right? So this is, these are all first reaction stuff. I thought it was exhilarating. I left a little disappointed just because of that thing I mentioned, but for the most part, like fucking great to go to the movies and see an awesome Paul Thomas Sager.

• 1:59:06Speaker 05

  It's just.

• 1:59:06Bill Simmons?

  It was great. I was really glad I saw it in person. All right, Wesley Morris, your podcast, Cannonball, I'm really going to be on this time.

• 1:59:13Speaker 05

  You're on this Thursday. We're going to talk about movie stars and Robert Redford.

• 1:59:17Bill Simmons?

  Great. Always great to see you. Thank you.

• 1:59:20Speaker 05

  All right. See you, Bill.

• 1:59:22Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Ariel. Thanks to Wesley. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, you can watch this on YouTube, on my YouTube channel. You can watch it as a video podcast on Spotify. I'm gonna be coming back on Thursday with a bunch more stuff, including ice cold NFL picks. House is on the hot seat. Mike McDaniel and House are the two people on the hot seats right now. We'll talk about that on Thursday. We might even have a special guest doing the picks with us. So, see you on Thursday.

• 2:00:05Bill Simmons?

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• 2:01:35Bill Simmons?

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