Emperor Constantine the Great: Christianity and the Roman Empire

Greg Jenner is joined in ancient Rome by Professor Lucy Grig and comedian Ivo Graham to learn all about Emperor Constantine the Great and the Christianisation of the Roman empire. Born not in Rome but in the Balkans, Constantine’s life was shaped by the turbulent politics of the late third century. He grew up as Emperor Diocletian – remembered now as a savage persecutor of Christians – was establishing the Tetrarchy, with four rulers now in control of the empire. One of these was Constantine’s father, Constantius. But when Constantius died in York, his son was acclaimed emperor in his place, kicking off a violent civil war. This episode traces Constantine’s life, from his childhood through to his elevation as emperor, taking in his extraordinary victory at Milvian Bridge, the vision that allegedly encouraged his conversion to Christianity, and his founding of Constantinople as a New Rome. It also examines his relationship with his mother, later known as Saint Helena, the bloody path he carved to the imperial throne, and his role in the pivotal Council of Nicaea, a landmark event in Christian history. If you’re a fan of religious revolutions, bloody Roman power politics, and historical nepo babies, you’ll love our episode on Constantine the Great. If you want more Roman rulers, listen to our episodes on the Rise of Julius Caesar, Agrippina the Younger, or Emperor Nero, with Professor Mary Beard and Patton Oswalt. And for more on the Christianisation of the Roman empire, check out our episode on Hypatia of Alexandria. You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Auréliane Perrin Written by: Auréliane Perrin, Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Greg Jenner?

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• 1:38Greg Jenner?

  Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me with a Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name's Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today, we're gathering our armies, grabbing our crosses and marching back to the third and fourth centuries to learn all about the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great. And to help us tell our Maximians from our Maxentius, that's hard to say, Maxentius, and to help us tell, and to help us tell our Maximians from our Maxentius, we have two very special guests in history corner. She's Professor of the History of Late Antiquity at the University of Edinburgh, where her research focuses on society, culture and religion in the later Roman world. Maybe you've read her excellent book, Popular Culture and the End of Antiquity in Southern Gaul. It's Professor Lucy Grig, welcome Lucy.

• 2:22Speaker 04

  Thank you, hello.

• 2:24Greg Jenner?

  Lovely to have you in. And in comedy corner, he's the UK's most apologetically posh comedian, but you know, in a good way. Maybe you've seen one of his many stand-up shows, listened to his wonderful music podcast Gig Pigs, or read his wonderful new book, Yardsticks for Failure. And you'll have seen him all over the TV, on Last Leg, Mock the Week, Live at the Apollo, my favourite of course, Taskmaster. It's Ivo Graham, welcome Ivo.

• 2:46Speaker 05

  Hi Greg, hi Lucy, thanks for having me.

• 2:47Greg Jenner?

  We're thrilled to have you in.

• 2:49Speaker 05

  It's first. Nice to be here.

• 2:50Greg Jenner?

  First time on.

• 2:51Speaker 05

  First time on.

• 2:52Greg Jenner?

  So contractually.

• 2:53Speaker 05

  Nervously noting already. I've written Maximians from Maxentius, even though I don't know what that is. But it just felt very important immediately.

• 3:01Greg Jenner?

  It is going to be important. I have to ask Ivo, do you like history?

• 3:05Speaker 05

  I've really wrestled with this answer. And I've actually found it quite a bleak thing to contemplate, because I do, but I don't think I do enough for this show. And it's, I think I'm, I think I'm a well-educated man who is steadily getting thicker. And I've reflected on that a lot. Actually, I like giving quizzes, I often do quite badly on them. I think people expect me to be into history and I often have like a history joke in my show and sort of enjoy the sort of smug intellectualism of like a bit about Garibaldi in my most recent one. It's about the, it's about the Italian leader, it's about the biscuits, and then there's a joke about boarding school, which we don't need to go into. But like, actually, when you break it down, like, my, I've got a seven-year-old daughter

• 3:50Speaker 05

  who's starting to learn stuff and I often don't know what she's talking about. There's so many comedy history podcasts now, the serious ones, the edgelord ones, and I feel I'm being left behind by all of it. So I will disappoint today.

• 4:01Greg Jenner?

  No, no, no, welcome, welcome to the history slipstream.

• 4:04Speaker 05

  Okay, yes, I want to, I want to get back into it.

• 4:07Greg Jenner?

  Okay, what do you know about Constantine the Great? You know, the internet is obsessed with the Roman Empire.

• 4:11Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 4:11Greg Jenner?

  So are you equally thinking about him daily?

• 4:13Speaker 05

  No, again, I'm not, I'm not thinking about that daily at all. And you know, fair play to, I mean, of course, you're a bit of a busman's holiday, the idea of thinking about the Roman Empire every day.

• 4:21Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 4:22Speaker 05

  My brother did ancient history at university and so I did message him saying, do you know a lot about Constantine? And he said, the Crizos were never really my jam.

• 4:36Speaker 05

  That's all I've got for this.

• 4:37Greg Jenner?

  Wow, what a quote.

• 4:42Greg Jenner?

  So, what do you know?

• 4:47Greg Jenner?

  This is the first segment, it's called the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener or viewer, hello, might know about today's subject. And despite being one of history's greats, the great indeed, our Constantine doesn't really get much pop coverage, you know, he's not really in the pop culture. There's a movie called Constantine with Rachel Weisz and Keanu Reeves, Wrong Constantine, nothing to do with ancient Rome. Some of you may know him as the first Christian Roman Emperor. If you've been to York or if you've studied there, like myself and producer Emmy, you will know there's a lovely statue of him outside York Minster. Perhaps you've been to Constantinople, the city named by him, founded by him, which of course is now Istanbul. Ivo is writing that down, very good. But why did he found this new capital city?

• 5:32Greg Jenner?

  What inspired his religious conversion to Christianity? And is it okay to be a Christian emperor who kills so many people? Let's find out. Right, Professor Lucy, we often have to deal with some pretty dodgy sources when we visit the ancient world, particularly for biographies of people. So how trustworthy are our texts today? Are we, are we taking everything with a pinch of salt?

• 5:52Speaker 04

  Yes, pretty much. It's not that there aren't sources, and there are even contemporary sources. You see, B. of Caesarius writes a life, Lactentius writes about him. There's also sources written not long after he's died, but the problem is that they're often very polarised. There's the pro-Constantine sources, they embellish some things, leave other things out. And then there's the sources that probably make all kinds of other things up. There's religious bias. I mean, yeah, it's tricky.

• 6:19Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so we've got a quite a confusing evidentiary record, but we know some things.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:24Greg Jenner?

  So Ivo, given that Constantine grew up to be Emperor of Rome.

• 6:28Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 6:28Greg Jenner?

  What class do you think he was born into? Do you think he was more eaten college or more eaten out of the bins?

• 6:34Speaker 05

  I think eaten college, I think.

• 6:36Greg Jenner?

  You think, so you think.

• 6:36Speaker 05

  Born to rule.

• 6:37Greg Jenner?

  But, okay, posh, princely.

• 6:41Speaker 05

  Yes, you've given me two options and I've gone with the one I'm more familiar with. But, but obviously I would fully support a rags to riches story. Jamie Vardy, et cetera.

• 6:54Greg Jenner?

  We'll see the Jamie Vardy, I mean, that's a niche reference, isn't it? Let's be honest. Who were Constantine's parents? Was, was he entitled and noble or is this a rags to riches story?

• 7:05Speaker 04

  Well, what's interesting is it's a bit of both. So his father, whose name is Constantius, get ready for all of these matching names, he's a soldier, he's from Moesia, modern Serbia. He's sort of a rising star in the military autocracy of the day when he meets Constantine's mum, who's called Helena. She is from ancient Bithynia, so part of modern Turkey. And this is where it gets interesting, the ancient sources describe her as, one describes her as vilissima, which very vile, very common even. And so we're not quite sure about her. It's thought they meet maybe in an inn where maybe she's working as a barmaid, a stable girl, sex worker, possibly. We don't know if she's a Roman citizen, she could have been enslaved.

• 7:50Speaker 04

  They meet probably in their twenties, so Constantius, even I get them wrong, he's on his military travels, they meet. Because we don't know whether she's like a proper Roman citizen, we don't even know if they're actually married. Some of the sources refer to her as his concubine, which is quite a common status at that time. So we don't know if they're married, but they are in their twenties, they meet. Constantine is born in the early 270s, not quite sure when. And this is a point when his father, Constantius, is busy kind of climbing the ranks of the imperial hierarchy. And eventually he throws over poor Helena for a more politically advantageous match. So he marries then the daughter or stepdaughter of the Emperor Maximian, who's called Theodora. So that's kind of the end of their, of their relationship.

• 8:34Greg Jenner?

  So young love, you know, it's talented young soldier meets girl in pub.

• 8:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's absolutely fine. I love the word vilissima. I'm going to try and use that in my life as much as possible.

• 8:47Greg Jenner?

  So Ivo.

• 8:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 8:48Greg Jenner?

  We've got a fairly complicated family history already.

• 8:51Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 8:51Greg Jenner?

  I'm going to complicate things even more.

• 8:52Speaker 05

  No.

• 8:53Greg Jenner?

  Because we're going to talk about Roman politics.

• 8:54Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 8:55Greg Jenner?

  What was the, do you know what the tetrarchy was?

• 8:57Speaker 05

  No.

• 8:59Speaker 05

  I'm sorry.

• 9:00Greg Jenner?

  That was a delightful wince.

• 9:01Speaker 05

  Okay. I'm sorry.

• 9:02Greg Jenner?

  It looked like it hurt. Is it okay?

• 9:04Speaker 05

  It's all right.

• 9:05Greg Jenner?

  It's okay.

• 9:06Speaker 05

  I've got to make peace with all of this.

• 9:07Greg Jenner?

  The tetra-- I mean, you study classics at Eton.

• 9:10Speaker 05

  At Eton College, a bit of money was spent on my classics education, undoubtedly.

• 9:13Greg Jenner?

  Can you work out what tetrarchy might mean?

• 9:15Speaker 05

  Yes, it's obviously something to do with the number three. Yes? No.

• 9:19Greg Jenner?

  Four.

• 9:20Speaker 05

  Sorry?

• 9:21Greg Jenner?

  Four.

• 9:21Speaker 05

  Four?

• 9:22Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 9:24Speaker 05

  Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I guess so. So what is it? What does it mean then?

• 9:29Greg Jenner?

  I mean, Lucy, do you want to tell us?

• 9:30Speaker 04

  Rule of four is what it means. And I feel very bad that I laughed. I would never laugh on this.

• 9:35Speaker 05

  No, I think that's great to produce such an unvarnished contempt.

• 9:39Greg Jenner?

  You did say you were getting thicker, so it's okay.

• 9:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. Didn't expect to prove it so early in the episode.

• 9:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, rule of four.

• 9:46Speaker 05

  Because a tetrahedron is a four-sided, four-pointed... What's a tetrahedron again?

• 9:54Greg Jenner?

  I don't know.

• 9:55Speaker 04

  Luckily, it's not a geometry.

• 9:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry.

• 9:58Greg Jenner?

  This is not a geometry podcast, so I don't know. But yeah, you're right.

• 10:02Speaker 05

  Tetrapack?

• 10:03Greg Jenner?

  Tetra.

• 10:03Speaker 05

  What's tetrapack then?

• 10:05Greg Jenner?

  Tetris. Is it Tetris? I'm thinking of Tetris.

• 10:07Speaker 05

  I'm afraid if you'd said, what number does... Well, you've seen what's happened. I don't know that tetris signifies four. So what would a three version of tetrarchy be then?

• 10:15Greg Jenner?

  Well, tetra presumably is four because they're like little squares that fall. But I don't know. We need to move on from the geometry quiz because clearly none of us know what we're doing here. The tetrarchy is the rule of four. Lucy, we are talking here about what's known as the crisis of the third century.

• 10:32Speaker 04

  Yes. I mean, and obviously, as ever, historical trends come and go. People go, oh, there's no such thing as a third-century crisis, but it pretty much looks like a crisis. You've got this period, particularly over 50 years, up to 284, where you have political crisis, military crisis, everything goes wrong on all of the frontiers, economic problems, religious tensions, and lots of emperors. So yeah, how many emperors depends on how you count. Maybe 26, definitely over 20. If you count all the wannabe emperors, you're getting close to 50, so.

• 11:07Greg Jenner?

  But about 25 or so is usually...

• 11:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, accepted.

• 11:11Greg Jenner?

  That's usually accepted, 25 who ruled. So, I mean, as the UK, we've just lost another prime minister.

• 11:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:17Greg Jenner?

  So we're doing quite... We're kind of heading towards our own crisis. Because we've had seven prime ministers in 10 years. The Romans went with 25 and 50. I feel like we're trending upwards.

• 11:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:26Greg Jenner?

  We could win this.

• 11:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's weird that the Starmah one feels like it's been a period of almost stability. And that's been, what, less than two years?

• 11:33Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 11:35Speaker 05

  Yes. It's horrible to be approaching Roman levels of turnover. We are.

• 11:40Greg Jenner?

  I mean, it's dangerous being a Roman emperor. They are murdered constantly. There's a point where there are six emperors in one year, which is way too many emperors. So they're going through emperors like Chelsea, Watford, and Spurs go through managers, which is obviously a reference for Ivo, not necessary for all our listeners. But what was the tetrarchy? How does it fix things? Does it fix things? You know, what is this idea of the rule of four?

• 12:01Speaker 04

  I mean, it's actually, yes, it's actually pretty successful. So we've had this period where it's clear that one autocrat cannot rule the empire, all of its territory, by themselves. Tetrarchy, although pedantic point, because I am an academic, is a modern term. It's not... Diocletian, who founded the tetrarchy, doesn't go around going, "Welcome to the tetrarchy." And so you've had all of these soldier emperors, they get called, making it to the top. When Diocletian makes it to the top in 284, he does something different. He sets up what gets called the Imperial College again, modern term, with two senior emperors, two junior emperors. Now, if anyone's been to Venice on holiday,

• 12:41Speaker 04

  you can see these lovely, sort of stumpy purple statues of these four guys on the corner of St. Mark's. And so you've got the empire sort of divided into two, and then again into two, so into four. You've got senior empresses, Augustuses, and junior emperors who are called Caesars. And so we have Diocletian and Maximian as co-emperors for the east and the west, is where I get confused too. Diocletian's own son-in-law, who's called Galarius, he's his Caesar in the east. And then we have Constantius, Constantine's dad, who is the junior one in the west. So is it really merit-based? Well, what do you think? Probably not.

• 13:24Speaker 04

  But this does seem to usher in a period of relative stability for the Roman Empire, unless perhaps you are a Christian, particularly in the east of the empire, because Diocletian and Galarius are sort of going for pretty violent oppression of the Christians there.

• 13:36Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I mean, Diocletian is famous, isn't he, for the kind of horrific treatment of Christians? He's... The martyrdoms and so on are...

• 13:43Speaker 04

  No, absolutely. And also, this is where our sources get a bit muddy because the interconnections between Constantine and Diocletian, which the pro-Constantine sources say they want to really, like, pretend they aren't there, are clearly there.

• 13:55Greg Jenner?

  So Constantius, the dad of Constantine...

• 13:58Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:59Greg Jenner?

  Is now junior Caesar, junior emperor, basically, of the west.

• 14:03Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 14:04Greg Jenner?

  So how do you imagine Constantine's childhood? What do you think he's getting up to with his sort of, you know, his average Tuesdays?

• 14:11Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, so if his dad's doing that, and this is now, it's... Theodora is his mother.

• 14:19Greg Jenner?

  Stepmom, yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 05

  His stepmom. Is he still seeing any of Helena?

• 14:25Greg Jenner?

  Good point, yeah.

• 14:25Speaker 05

  You know, I'm thinking about co-parenting timetables, which is probably not a top priority here. But presumably, and I don't know if we've discovered this, but as well as the tetrarchy having the sort of four spread out, are there next ofkins all being sort of primed to take over the four?

• 14:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think you're already getting this now, yes.

• 14:48Speaker 05

  Or is it like, if Constantius doesn't really sort of pull his weight, is, you know, could... If someone who was really pulling the weight in the tetrarchy had two top sons, could it be like, they'll both get promoted?

• 15:03Greg Jenner?

  Premium quality sons, yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 04

  Yes, that is pretty much how it is. I should say that we don't... Constantius doesn't really get rid of Helena until probably Constantine is sort of adult. But yeah, it's true, we don't really know what happens to her. She does just kind of disappear from history for a while. So, yeah. She goes well for her in the end. So Constantine is born in Serbia, nicest modern Serbia. So he has been kind of groomed for this life, as you're suggesting. He's sort of getting military training, because it's very much a kind of military elite. He's also like Ivo, learning Greek and that in literature, and indeed philosophy. But his mother is likely illiterate, so it's a big, kind of, social gap here. And then, as you say, his dad becomes Caesar in the west, so he's traveling with his father and around these other courts.

• 15:50Speaker 04

  He's really traveling. We think he went as far east as Palestine, Egypt, even ancient Persia.

• 15:56Greg Jenner?

  Okay, as a soldier.

• 15:58Speaker 04

  Yes, and as a soldier, maybe a kind of part of a sort of wadi guard unit, but definitely as a kind of junior sort of princeling.

• 16:05Greg Jenner?

  So he's sort of... You know, Ivo, you went to... You did Eton and Oxbridge, the classic path for leadership.

• 16:10Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 16:11Greg Jenner?

  You haven't ended up in politics yet.

• 16:13Speaker 05

  No, I haven't.

• 16:14Greg Jenner?

  But do you sort of feel a familiarity with Constantine's life? Do you sort of recognize this and think, oh, yes, that could have been me?

• 16:21Speaker 05

  No, I don't. No, I don't exude leadership qualities.

• 16:25Greg Jenner?

  Oh, I think that's fair. I think you're a man of tremendous charisma.

• 16:29Speaker 05

  Well, that's very kind. I think I'm a man of occasional charisma, but I don't think even that is the most important quality in leadership. The closest I've felt to that sort of thing, I think, is being a leader of a group at a festival that I really do promote myself to that role quite early on, particularly if I've been and others haven't. There was a great Glastonbury night last year where it's... And we were trying to get home at about sort of 4:00 AM, and there were a lot of us. And it's a very sort of crowded, sort of central spine of the festival. Everyone, it's like the sort of zombie army sort of going through. And I brought a ball of string to the festival. And I was like, everyone stay on the string. And it was one of the more military things I've done in my life, and...

• 17:12Greg Jenner?

  You did a Theseus.

• 17:12Speaker 05

  I did. I did a Theseus. He was in my mind at the time, but he should have been, of course. Two of the people who met on the string are now in a long-term relationship.

• 17:22Greg Jenner?

  This is the future of dating, Ivo. You've invented a new... But everything changed for Constantine in the year 305, when he was, what, 30?

• 17:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, I said he was probably born 272, but sometimes, yeah, something like that.

• 17:37Greg Jenner?

  Okay, early 30s. So what's this sort of crucial moment, 305? Why do we...

• 17:42Speaker 04

  Well, Diocletian does something incredibly unusual for a Roman emperor. He voluntarily abdicates. I mean, really, that is incredibly rare. And he goes off to look after his cabbages, really.

• 17:57Greg Jenner?

  Is that a euphemism, or is that...

• 17:58Speaker 04

  Seemingly not, but... So he goes voluntarily, but his co-emperor, Maximian, not so much. He doesn't really want to do it, but he's made to. So now we've got a kind of vacancy. So if you remember, we've got this four system. And so Galarius and Constantius get an upgrade. So we've now got two new Augustuses.

• 18:18Greg Jenner?

  Junior Caesars become the new Augustuses, right?

• 18:21Speaker 04

  But what happens next? As you've already suggested, there's a range of potentials, and Constantine doesn't actually get the call at this point. His dad, controversially, picks up, perhaps, picks somebody else, a guy called Severus, yeah? Who becomes Caesar in the west. Galarius, he does it with nepotism, and he picks his own nephew. But it's pretty obvious it's a slightly dangerous position to be in, definitely dynastic danger. And Galarius apparently is clearly thinks it's a bit dangerous having Constantine around. So he supposedly sends him on dangerous missions, like one-to-one combat with dangerous beasts.

• 18:56Greg Jenner?

  Wow, okay, for his amusement or...

• 18:59Speaker 05

  What sort of beasts?

• 19:01Speaker 04

  undefined, you can pick.

• 19:02Greg Jenner?

  Oh, yeah, okay. Which beast to be thinking of, Ivo?

• 19:05Speaker 05

  Boar? Like a wild boar?

• 19:07Greg Jenner?

  Boar, yeah, dangerous. Yeah, absolutely, a wild boar, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, pandas, lions. There's plenty of dangerous animals in the ancient Roman world.

• 19:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, and we've all seen Gladiator, you know.

• 19:16Greg Jenner?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 19:17Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, I didn't want to go full sort of tigers and elephants.

• 19:21Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, okay. So Lucy, while Daddy Constantius is now emperor of the west or east, I can't remember.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  West, you're west.

• 19:28Greg Jenner?

  Thank you. His son is being bullied by his coworker.

• 19:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:34Greg Jenner?

  So does HR get involved? How do you sort of solve office politics?

• 19:38Speaker 04

  Well, this is where Daddy does sort of come to the rescue. But so he, this is like local interest, he's actually in Britain, in northern Britain, fighting the picts. And he tries to get Galarius to send him away. He's basically in this kind of bullying hostage situation at Galarius's court. And there's a story that Galarius agrees to let him go, then changes his mind the next morning. But by the time he's sort of like got the order out, Constantine has already legged it off to be reunited with his dad.

• 20:07Greg Jenner?

  Yes, and legged it off is probably the operative verb there because, as far as we can tell, he's on the run.

• 20:13Speaker 04

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:14Greg Jenner?

  He's scared. He thinks Galarius is going to get him. So how does he get to northern Britain, in fact, Scotland, as we call it now, in record time, maximum pace? How do you get across Europe that fast? What's the best route?

• 20:29Greg Jenner?

  In what, in 305?

• 20:30Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 20:31Greg Jenner?

  They haven't built the motorways yet.

• 20:33Speaker 05

  No, or the TGV. Um, I think it's, it's gotta be horse.

• 20:38Greg Jenner?

  It is horse, yeah. It's a horse network, but and he's taking the fastest horses.

• 20:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 20:43Greg Jenner?

  But he's not going the normal route.

• 20:45Speaker 04

  No, so he uses the curse as publicus, so this is the sort of uh, highway official transport system. And the story goes, he takes the fastest horse in each stable that's spread out on the way. And not, not such a nice bit damage, you know, injures the other horses. So no one else can follow him. And he goes a special roundabout route to, to avoid the, the Caesar of the West, who is Severus, who's been picked instead of him, so he can make it to meet his dad.

• 21:10Greg Jenner?

  So he's gone the long way around.

• 21:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:12Greg Jenner?

  To avoid getting

• 21:13Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 21:13Greg Jenner?

  picked up and arrested and sent back to Gallerius to be murdered.

• 21:17Speaker 04

  And it, and it works. He meets his dad probably in northern Gaul, but then they head off to Britain to, to fight the pesky picks.

• 21:23Greg Jenner?

  They do, and they campaign together until they end up in Iboricum, which is

• 21:29Speaker 05

  Uh, Sunderland?

• 21:31Greg Jenner?

  Not bad, York.

• 21:33Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 21:33Greg Jenner?

  York, which is where the statue of Constantine now is.

• 21:36Speaker 05

  I've written that down, Yorkminster.

• 21:38Greg Jenner?

  Iboricum, York. Uh, and in 306, Daddy Constantius dies in York. So our Serbian Roman emperor is dead. And the soldiers are like, it's fine, because we've got another one.

• 21:51Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 21:51Greg Jenner?

  Right here. All hail Emperor Constantine.

• 21:54Speaker 04

  They do do that, but just saying it doesn't always make it happen because Gallerius isn't so keen on this idea. Uh, he does agree, perhaps reluctantly, that Constantine can still be a, can be a junior, a junior emperor, so a Caesar. But, um, yeah, Severus then becomes Augustus. I mean, I hope you're keeping up because frankly, it's, it's a right mess at this point. And then we have to throw our new character into the mix, who is Maximian's son. Remember Maximian's son, who is called Maxentius? He's currently hanging out in Rome. He's not actually got any official job, but he thinks it's frankly unfair. The Constantine, who he calls the son of a harlot, apparently, uh, is now being acclaimed in this way.

• 22:36Greg Jenner?

  Maximian was the co-emperor

• 22:38Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:39Greg Jenner?

  uh, previously with Diocletian.

• 22:41Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 22:41Greg Jenner?

  So his son, Maxentius, is just sort of lay about

• 22:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:44Greg Jenner?

  waiting for power.

• 22:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:46Greg Jenner?

  And is now angry that Constantine has got the power that he feels he should have.

• 22:50Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 22:50Greg Jenner?

  Are you following, Ivo? Sorry, quite a lot.

• 22:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's, it's, uh, I've, I've, there's a lot of names now, but I'm afraid I'm already at the point where I go, that won't be in the quiz. That's that, that, those, those names.

• 23:02Greg Jenner?

  Probably is in the quiz, is all I'm gonna say. So, uh, so maybe get jotting down in the old notebook. But, so we've got two father-son pairs here.

• 23:09Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 23:09Greg Jenner?

  But luckily for us, they've gone with the Kardashian family branding style, because we've got Constantius and Constantine.

• 23:15Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 23:15Greg Jenner?

  And Maximian and Maxentius.

• 23:16Speaker 04

  And it will only get worse.

• 23:18Greg Jenner?

  Yes, it's gonna get more confusing. So how do you think Maxentius dealt with Constantine being named the new emperor? This, this son in Rome who thought that he should be king, emperor, what do you think he does?

• 23:29Speaker 05

  Um, I don't, when I say mad on threads, uh, I don't know. Certainly, maybe published something, maybe wrote, uh, wrote something to, um, uh, Diocletian? No, Diocletian is abdicated, he's with his cabbages.

• 23:45Speaker 04

  He did.

• 23:47Speaker 05

  Sorry, okay, that's annoying. But he's, he's too far away to go and deal with the issue directly, I would say.

• 23:53Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 23:53Speaker 05

  So maybe he raises an army in wait, in wait for his return?

• 23:57Greg Jenner?

  Oh, that's good. I mean, that's not a bad instinct, right?

• 24:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:00Greg Jenner?

  I mean, I think we've, many people will know the quote, I am Spartacus. By this point, it's more, I am emperor, right? Because now everyone is sort of putting their hand forward and saying, I'm the emperor, not that guy, it's me.

• 24:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:11Greg Jenner?

  And you need, you need an army.

• 24:13Speaker 04

  Yes, and as I've said, you've still got the kind of retired, but are they really emperors as well? So there's a big cast. So yes, Maxentius gets the imperial troops, the guardsmen in Rome, which in Rome is a pretty good place to be, let's face it. He gets them to acclaim him as emperor. Uh, he persuades his father, Maximian, to come out of retirement. So as I said, he's kind of waiting in the, in the wings and join his cause. So we've got civil war. We've got, yeah, Roman Empire back in civil war. Uh, and so Maxentius, he's raised his troops, as you say, he does well in Italy. If you remember, there's, there's also this problem of this guy called Severus, who's not related particularly to our main people. He's in Italy and so Maxentius and his troops do very well. They capture him, they, they kill him, of course they do.

• 24:56Speaker 04

  And Constantine, for this point, just stays out of it. He's, he's calling himself senior emperor of the West, but he stays out of Italy. So he doesn't control Italy, which you'd think is quite important. Uh, and he just stays on the Rhine. Uh, he's a very good soldier seemingly, he's fighting the Frankish tribes there.

• 25:12Greg Jenner?

  So he's in Germany?

• 25:14Speaker 04

  Rhine, yeah, so.

• 25:15Greg Jenner?

  So the border of France and Germany, right, okay. So Maxentius has taken power, got his dad out of retirement to back him up.

• 25:22Speaker 04

  Mm.

• 25:23Greg Jenner?

  Killed Severus.

• 25:24Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 25:24Greg Jenner?

  And now it's, we're waiting for the smackdown with Constantine.

• 25:27Speaker 04

  Something like, yes, yes, yeah, exactly that.

• 25:30Greg Jenner?

  Okay. Uh, but Ivo, Constantine then gained a surprising ally in his fight against Maxentius. Who do you think it was?

• 25:37Speaker 05

  Um, so it's really just a case of which names are still on the table.

• 25:41Greg Jenner?

  Sure.

• 25:45Speaker 05

  It's, um, is it the retired Diocletian?

• 25:47Greg Jenner?

  It's a good guess.

• 25:49Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 25:49Greg Jenner?

  It's even more surprising than that.

• 25:50Speaker 05

  Okay. Well, it's, surely it's not Maximilian.

• 25:54Greg Jenner?

  It is.

• 25:54Speaker 05

  It's Maximilian.

• 25:55Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 25:55Speaker 05

  Not supporting his own

• 25:56Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 05

  son.

• 25:57Greg Jenner?

  Yeah. He gets, his enemy's dad joins his side.

• 26:00Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 26:01Greg Jenner?

  Which is very awkward at Christmas, but, um.

• 26:04Speaker 04

  Yes, so Maximian has been building an alliance with Constantine. Uh, and history also repeats itself, because at this point, so his first wife, Minovina, we don't know much about her. Maybe that's because she was Diocletian's daughter and the pro-Constantinian sources are trying to disassociate them. But he gets a new wife, who is Maximian's daughter, Fausta.

• 26:24Greg Jenner?

  So he's had, he's had a son with his first wife.

• 26:27Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 26:27Greg Jenner?

  So the son's called Crispus.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 26:28Greg Jenner?

  But he's ditched that wife and he's on to the new wife.

• 26:31Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 26:31Greg Jenner?

  And she is Fausta. And that's in 307, they get married. Okay, so it's all going quite well. He cemented the relationship with his, his new allies, with his new ally, who is his enemy's dad.

• 26:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:44Greg Jenner?

  Sorry, Ivo.

• 26:45Speaker 05

  How old's he by this point? He's sort of thirty-four?

• 26:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, something like that.

• 26:50Greg Jenner?

  Something like that.

• 26:51Speaker 04

  Not quite ready for a midlife crisis, you would think.

• 26:53Greg Jenner?

  I don't know, when you say that, but I mean, he's.

• 26:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm thirty-five and I'm on the fast track.

• 26:59Greg Jenner?

  So if Constantius had been married to Maximian's daughter, Theodora, does that mean that Fausta, his new wife, his second wife, is Constantine's new step-aunt as well as his new wife?

• 27:11Speaker 04

  I mean, who even knows at this point?

• 27:14Speaker 05

  Are we gonna be hearing any more about Crispus?

• 27:16Greg Jenner?

  Not, not loads.

• 27:18Speaker 05

  That's a shame.

• 27:19Greg Jenner?

  I mean, you'll, you'll hear one thing about him and it's not, it's not nice.

• 27:21Speaker 05

  I know.

• 27:23Greg Jenner?

  So yes, Crispus, um, Crispus will get his comeuppance. Okay, so after the wedding, this lovely, beautiful wedding, where the, the two families are united, presumably Maxentius not invited to the wedding.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  You would, you would think not.

• 27:35Greg Jenner?

  He's at war with him.

• 27:36Speaker 04

  Yes. Yeah, so Maximian, Maximian quarrels with his son, Maxentius, obviously, but doesn't manage to quite get rid of him. And this is where, okay, imagine we've got Diocletian back with his cabbages. He comes out of retirement, uh, for an emergency conference.

• 27:52Greg Jenner?

  This is great.

• 27:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, in 308, in Carnuntum, which is near Vienna. But he says he won't come back to rule. They're trying to sort out the situation. Maximian is forced to abdicate for the second time, second or even third, for the second time, uh, but it becomes clear that he doesn't really want to go. So when it comes to Maximian, he's forced, in what is very much traditional Roman style, to die by, by suicide.

• 28:15Greg Jenner?

  So that's Constantine's sort of succession moment. That's where he really, like, the, the claws come out. So up to this point, he's divorcing, he's dumping, but now he's killing his enemies. And then not even enemy, a former ally.

• 28:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:26Speaker 05

  Is he back in, um, Rome by this point?

• 28:29Speaker 04

  Not yet.

• 28:30Speaker 05

  Okay. He's doing all of this from, from York?

• 28:33Greg Jenner?

  No, he's more in sort of.

• 28:34Speaker 05

  Oh, so the Rhine?

• 28:35Greg Jenner?

  The Rhine, yeah, sort of France, Germany, that sort of area, fighting the Franks. Uh, at this point, Diocletian's vegetable garden sounds quite appealing, right?

• 28:43Speaker 05

  It is.

• 28:44Greg Jenner?

  Just sort of sit there with the cabbages and the carrots. So did Maxentius take maximum revenge on Constantine for killing his papa? Does?

• 28:51Speaker 04

  Doesn't quite go that way.

• 28:53Greg Jenner?

  Right, okay.

• 28:53Speaker 04

  So yes, we've had Constantine on the Rhine. Then in 312, he decides to deal with Maxentius. So he marches to Italy, uh, he defeats Maximian's, Maxentius's troops, uh, in the north of Italy. The, yeah, the, the names are too much. Uh, and then finally, when is it, the twenty-eighth of October, 312? They're in Rome and we get the sort of end game for Maxentius. Uh, they have a battle at the Milvian Bridge, which is just north of Rome. Although the sort of pro-Constantine sources trying to big it up as like a great victory, it's probably a foregone conclusion. It's awful. Maxentius's troops, they've cut the bridges, lots of them drown, including Maxentius himself.

• 29:34Speaker 04

  Uh, and Constantine is then, yeah, he's the winner, he's been acclaimed liberator by the Senate. So he's now definitely the senior emperor for the West of the empire. But even though Gallerius has died in the East, there's a new Eastern Augustus called Licinius, who has been busy killing off all his rivals as well, just, I mean, it's, they're all at it.

• 29:56Greg Jenner?

  So Maximian is dead, Maxentius is dead, his head's on a pike.

• 29:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:00Greg Jenner?

  And there's a new senior emperor in the East, Licinius.

• 30:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:04Greg Jenner?

  And a new senior emperor in the West, our chap, Constantine, not yet the great.

• 30:08Speaker 05

  Still married to Fausta.

• 30:10Greg Jenner?

  Still married to Fausta.

• 30:11Speaker 05

  Okay.

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• 32:22Greg Jenner?

  So Constantine and Licinius now have to cement an alliance, the Eastern and Western Emperors, and so they do so through marriage. And that is the marriage of Constantia.

• 32:35Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 32:36Greg Jenner?

  Who's that?

• 32:38Speaker 04

  Constantine's half-sister.

• 32:42Greg Jenner?

  Not even just normal sister, just half-sister.

• 32:44Speaker 04

  I think.

• 32:44Greg Jenner?

  Okay, sure. Okay, so Constantia marries Licinius. Great.

• 32:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:50Greg Jenner?

  Thank you.

• 32:51Speaker 04

  Brothers-in-law, brothers-in-law.

• 32:52Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so it's been war-to-war politics, family confusion, murder, intrigue, battles and wars and all sorts of things. But the Battle of the Milvian Bridge is in 312, and this is supposedly the beginning of the Christian story.

• 33:05Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 33:06Greg Jenner?

  This is where we start to introduce the religious journey or conversion. So can you talk us through that sort of conversion or that moment?

• 33:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, and this is one of the most debated, really, arguments in ancient history. So there is a story, versions of a story put together that the night before this battle, so in October in 312, Constantine has a vision, or maybe not the night before, in which he sees a heavenly sign, namasai, with two letters, a chi in a row, which are the two, the first letters of the Greek word, Christus, and another sort of slogan or by saying, conquer by this. And then the story goes, having seen this sign, he puts Christian symbols on the shields of all of his soldiers, and then they go off and defeat Maxentius.

• 33:53Speaker 04

  But even that version is slightly contradicted even by pro-Christian authors. And awkward fact, there is a speech from two years earlier, 310, an official speech of praise about Constantine, which says that he had seen a vision of a pagan god, Apollo, and had a victory. So how many visions did he have? Trying to put these together is tricky. I mean, there's a lot of debate around his, around his conversion. I mean, did he see anything? Was he sincere? But I mean, it is pretty clear that he does an awful lot very quickly to support the Christian church, regardless. So he issues pro-Christian legislation, he builds churches at Rome, and he and Licinius, remember his co-emperor in the East,

• 34:38Speaker 04

  they get together and agree a kind of package to extend measures in support of Christianity, including across the East, where the Christians have been, have been persecuted. And this sort of package of measures that they agree, there's a kind of historical myth that this is then called the Edict of Milan. But as I tell my students, there was no edict and there was nothing at Milan, so we don't call it that, but there we go.

• 34:59Greg Jenner?

  Okay, the not-so-edict of Milan.

• 35:01Speaker 04

  The not-so-edict of not Milan, that's it.

• 35:02Greg Jenner?

  Okay, great, okay. So he converts to Christianity possibly, has visions possibly,

• 35:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:07Greg Jenner?

  puts the chiro on his, his soldier's shields.

• 35:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:11Greg Jenner?

  So they're fighting for Christ. Do they know who he is, Christ, these soldiers? Have they heard of Christianity? It will, you know, are ordinary soldiers in the army, in, you know, are they Christians too, or is this just?

• 35:23Speaker 04

  I mean, to me, it seems pretty unlikely at this date.

• 35:26Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 35:27Speaker 04

  But yeah, no one asks them.

• 35:29Greg Jenner?

  Just paint this on the shield, lads, and off we go.

• 35:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, got the chiro, there you go.

• 35:33Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so Edict of Milan didn't happen, but the Council of Nicaea did. Ivo, do you know what happened at the Council of Nicaea in 325? It's a very important and famous, one of the, one of the best.

• 35:46Speaker 04

  Best councils.

• 35:47Greg Jenner?

  One of the best councils, gatherings of bishops. They decide on a very important Christian doctrine. Do you want to have a guess what that would be?

• 35:55Speaker 05

  The Bible.

• 35:56Greg Jenner?

  Oh, okay, so you think it's them getting together to compile the Bible?

• 35:59Speaker 04

  Well.

• 36:00Speaker 05

  No, maybe that's a bit ambitious.

• 36:02Greg Jenner?

  Well, what do you think, Lucy?

• 36:04Speaker 04

  I mean, I think it is quite ambitious. And it is a sign again that Constantine's really getting in on the game. He fancies himself clearly as a bit of a theologian. All those studies are coming in handy. And so the church, it's not really just one church, it's actually quite a lot of controversy and division. He's already got involved with a dispute between rival Christian groups in North Africa. And the Council of Nicaea, as Greg says, is where they come up with this statement, still known today as the Nicene Creed. And that's to deal with this debate over the nature of Christ and the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy, the Holy Trinity. And so there's been the so-called Arian heresy. So the way Christian heresy's work is if you win,

• 36:49Speaker 04

  you name your opposing, opposing version, a heresy, and then you name after a person. So it's named after a priest called Arius, A-R-I-A-N. But basically, they come up with a compromise. What is the Nicene Creed? And just in case you want to know, the compromise is that the Father and Son are of the same substance.

• 37:08Greg Jenner?

  So he is a committed Christian at this point, we think, maybe, possibly? He's doing Christian things?

• 37:13Speaker 04

  He's definitely doing Christian things.

• 37:14Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so how do you think this newfound converted Christian treats his, his co-ruler Licinius over in the Eastern Empire? Do you think he extends him his charitable hand, God's love, kindness?

• 37:26Speaker 05

  I think, I think, I can tell the answer from the way you phrase the question. I think.

• 37:30Greg Jenner?

  Am I leading too heavily?

• 37:32Speaker 05

  I think Constantine is, is, is a very hypocritical Christian already. I think he's very controlling and he'll justify whatever he wants to do with whatever part of the Bible he's just made up, or whatever, like. And this is all from a dream or from a like?

• 37:48Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, he's had visions, yeah.

• 37:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, and not to take anything away from Christianity, which I broadly respect, but it all feels quite opportunistic for, on the Constantine's front.

• 38:00Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard to argue with Ivo's logic there because.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  No, lots of people have said this.

• 38:05Greg Jenner?

  So Constantine sends his brother-in-law Bassanias off to the court of Licinius, and Bassanias is married to Anastasia. So that's the sort of family connection there. And Bassanias, it goes wrong for him quite quickly at the court of Licinius, doesn't it?

• 38:18Speaker 04

  Very much so, yes.

• 38:19Greg Jenner?

  He tries to convince Licinius to betray Constantine.

• 38:23Speaker 04

  Allegedly.

• 38:23Greg Jenner?

  So Constantine has Bassanias killed, and then Constantine and Licinius go to war.

• 38:28Speaker 04

  Yes, in fact, for 12 years after Milvian Bridge, although they're co-emperors, brothers-in-law, they're periodically fighting each other. Finally, 324, Constantine and, oh, we get Crispus again, his oldest son Crispus. They get together, so there was a bit of a pretext. Licinius, who had been doing Christian things, starts enacting anti-Christian measures in the East. And so Constantine uses this as a pretext to go and fight against him. And so he and Crispus defeat Licinius. First, he says he'll spare his wife. Licinius's wife is begging him, but in the end, surprise, surprise, ends up executing him. Oh, and of course, his son, Licinius's son is also executed. Who would have been Licinius the second?

• 39:13Speaker 04

  And so now Constantine, and this is a big deal, no one's been emperor of the whole Roman world for some time at this point. He's now in charge of East and West. He's got the whole Roman Empire, and he's got three sons of his own. So it's, he's in full control.

• 39:26Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, yeah, so he's now the emperor of everything.

• 39:30Speaker 05

  What, what, um, tetrarchy?

• 39:31Greg Jenner?

  Well, he's, he's, he's tetrucked it.

• 39:33Speaker 05

  Wow, fantastic.

• 39:35Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, so he's the emperor of everything, East and West. Constantine heading towards the great, we'll see. Lucy has mentioned his children there. So Crispus is his son with his first wife, Minovina, but he's also had five kids with his second wife, Fausta. So three sons, two daughters. Ivo, I'd love you to guess their names, please.

• 39:57Speaker 05

  God, how many of them start with Constan?

• 39:59Greg Jenner?

  Three. Four, actually, for the three boys, one girl.

• 40:04Speaker 05

  Right, so the girl is, but we've already had a Constantia, haven't we?

• 40:08Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 40:08Speaker 05

  His sister, who married Licinius.

• 40:10Speaker 04

  Good, yes.

• 40:11Speaker 05

  Okay, so Constantia must be off the table. Constant, you know.

• 40:17Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, you knew that.

• 40:18Speaker 05

  Tella, Constant, Tia.

• 40:23Greg Jenner?

  Tina?

• 40:23Speaker 05

  Constantina.

• 40:25Greg Jenner?

  Constantina, well done. Okay, Constantina, we've got one. Okay, give me the boys.

• 40:29Speaker 05

  Constant, uh, gosh, uh, Constantus? Constant, uh, it's not my improv forte, this, I have to say. Tell me the names.

• 40:43Greg Jenner?

  Constantine, Constantius, Constance.

• 40:47Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 40:47Greg Jenner?

  So one is named after himself, one is named after his dad, in honour of the granddad, I suppose, and Constance. And then we have Constantine. So it's Constantine, Constantius, Constance. The daughter is Constantina, the other daughter is Helena.

• 41:00Speaker 05

  Great.

• 41:00Greg Jenner?

  Named after his mum.

• 41:01Speaker 05

  Great.

• 41:02Speaker 04

  Which is nice.

• 41:02Greg Jenner?

  It's nice, right? So he's got his kids. In some ways, you could think, oh, happy families. Dynasty building, it's very, it is very Kardashian. But it's not happy families, because it's Constantine, of course it is. So in 326, Constantine had Fausta and Crispus killed. What do you think they had done, Ivo?

• 41:21Speaker 05

  Something to do with the Christianity?

• 41:22Greg Jenner?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:23Speaker 05

  Not converted, not respected.

• 41:27Greg Jenner?

  So you think they're worshipping the old gods still?

• 41:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, and who can blame them?

• 41:31Greg Jenner?

  Sure, okay, that's a good guess. Lucy, unfortunately, the word I'm going to have to use is a lot less charming. Incest?

• 41:38Speaker 04

  Well. Allegedly. So this is where the pro and anti story is difficult to say. So what we do know is that in 326, Constantine has Crispus executed. And Fausta dies reputedly by being locked up in a sort of heated, heating room at the Roman baths. And so she is, she's dead.

• 41:59Greg Jenner?

  He saunas her to death?

• 42:00Speaker 04

  He saunas, yeah, he steams her to death.

• 42:02Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 42:03Speaker 04

  Is what happens. And so we don't know why either of them was killed, or if they're connected. As is the case, we've got this problem with the sources, so the pro Constantine sources just say nothing. They pass over the whole thing in silence, whereas the anti Constantine sources say they were bumped off because they were having an incestuous relationship as stepmother and stepson.

• 42:24Greg Jenner?

  Which is sort of a standard slur in the Roman world, right? That's how you destroy your enemies, is you say they've been sleeping with the wrong person.

• 42:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:31Greg Jenner?

  Because you can't disprove it, right? It's a kind of, it's a trope.

• 42:35Speaker 04

  Absolutely, incest trope and getting at stepmothers, another absolute part of this.

• 42:40Greg Jenner?

  He's murdered his son, his wife, his father-in-law, his enemies, his friends, his brother-in-law Bassanias is dead. Like, they're kind of dropping like flies.

• 42:54Greg Jenner?

  But that's okay, because he's going to build a new city.

• 42:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, and he's got three sons still.

• 42:57Greg Jenner?

  He's got three sons?

• 42:58Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 42:58Greg Jenner?

  And one, and daughters as well. His new city is, of course, called.

• 43:03Speaker 05

  Constantinople.

• 43:04Greg Jenner?

  Very good. And do you want to tell us what he's going to do there? What's he going to build?

• 43:11Greg Jenner?

  What would you build? If you were, you get to start Ivopolis, your own brand-new city?

• 43:17Speaker 05

  Well, it's infrastructure, isn't it? Well, no, it's churches, obviously, because that's got to be a big part of it for him.

• 43:23Greg Jenner?

  Sure, okay.

• 43:25Speaker 05

  So, but maybe also, particularly if he's come, if he spends so much time in York, there'll be some castles and walls.

• 43:34Speaker 05

  And then, you know, maybe, I've never, I've never been to Istanbul, so I'm not able to draw from present-day experience. But obviously, football stadium.

• 43:45Speaker 05

  You know, dental, you know, massive dental sort of studios.

• 43:51Greg Jenner?

  Hair transplant surgeries, yeah, absolutely.

• 43:54Speaker 05

  Everything we love and benefit from today.

• 43:56Greg Jenner?

  These are all excellent guesses. I think church was good.

• 43:59Speaker 04

  Yes, and not quite a football stadium, but a very famous hippodrome. So that's actually.

• 44:03Greg Jenner?

  Chariot racing is the number-one sport in Eastern Roman Empire. And it will become the home of the most rabid fans. Because they riot and they burn the thing down sometimes, don't they?

• 44:12Speaker 04

  Absolutely, in the Mika riots.

• 44:14Greg Jenner?

  So, so tell us more a little bit about Byzantium that becomes Constantinople.

• 44:18Speaker 04

  Yes. Yes, it's nice to get away from the murder. So in 324, Constantine entirely rebuilds this new city that had been Byzantium and calls it Constantinopolis. It's inaugurated, it takes six years to build, very quick by HSG standards, and it's inaugurated in May 330. And it's not entirely news, because the tetrarchs gone around building tetrarch capitals. But Constantinople is more than just that. It has, as obviously, it has churches, it has a senate house, so that's like Rome. Obviously, fortifications, as you said. It has an imperial palace with a massive great hippodrome, impressive public spaces.

• 45:02Speaker 04

  It's referred to as New Rome, it's referred to as a second Rome. But very much Constantine has left his mark, so we know that in the middle of his forum, there's this colossal bronze statue of him on top of a purple column, nearly 40 metres high in total. Just if you try to picture this, it's a classicizing statue, so he was naked.

• 45:21Greg Jenner?

  Ooh.

• 45:23Speaker 04

  Holding a globe and a spear to symbolise he's emperor of, of everything.

• 45:27Greg Jenner?

  Ivo, if you were going to have a 40-metre naked statue of yourself, what would you be holding?

• 45:31Speaker 05

  I think globe and a spear, sounds fantastic. There was a boy at my prep school who was holding a globe on the front cover of the school magazine. And he had a, it's not dated very well, it's, it was such, it's such, it satisfies every, like, born-to-rule stereotype of a private school. Like, an incredibly airy and eight-year-old just looking at a globe. So yeah, maybe, maybe not.

• 45:57Greg Jenner?

  You say New Rome, obviously, the eastern, the eastern part of the empire spoke Greek.

• 46:01Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 46:02Greg Jenner?

  Constantine spoke Greek and Latin?

• 46:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 46:05Greg Jenner?

  So does he, does he code-switch when he's out there? What, you know, does he, does he speak Greek when he's in Constantinople? And then back home in Rome, he's speaking Latin?

• 46:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is a really interesting question. And then when Justinian, who's Byzantine Empire, introduces his law code, it's in, it's still in Latin. So Latin continues being a kind of language of power. But yeah, this kind of code-switching between Greek and Latin is definitely key to this era.

• 46:27Greg Jenner?

  Is it important politically?

• 46:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:28Greg Jenner?

  I mean, obviously, it becomes important later on. The Byzantine Empire is enormously powerful and, you know, keeps going to 1453. But is it important to him, to his rule?

• 46:37Speaker 04

  I think it is, yes. Obviously, it's just not like any other imperial capital, because it has a senate. So it's effectively set up as a rival, a second Rome. The Roman senators back in the real Rome hate it.

• 46:51Speaker 04

  And so, yeah, there's this whole new geopolitical era. There've been all of these problems on the east and sort of facing east. Yeah, that's what will happen in the end. As you say, it's the eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire that will end up being the Rome that did not fall.

• 47:06Greg Jenner?

  Sure. And there's another city we need to talk about, another holy city, Jerusalem. Do you know why we're going to talk about this?

• 47:15Speaker 05

  Because, no, I don't.

• 47:19Greg Jenner?

  You had such confidence for a second. It's his mum, it's Helena.

• 47:24Speaker 05

  What do you mean it's his mum?

• 47:25Greg Jenner?

  Constantine's mum, she's going on tour. She's going to go check out all the best Christian sites. Because she wants to, she's, she's Christian, you know, she's converted to Christianity too.

• 47:34Speaker 05

  Because of her son.

• 47:35Greg Jenner?

  Because of, well, because of her son or has her son converted to her?

• 47:37Speaker 04

  Different, yeah, that's what we don't know, the sources go both ways.

• 47:40Greg Jenner?

  So do we know when she converts and why she converts and why she ends up in Jerusalem?

• 47:44Speaker 04

  No, we don't know, no, no.

• 47:46Greg Jenner?

  Okay, thanks for coming.

• 47:48Speaker 04

  But the interesting thing is, the stories are all about, oh, the whole point of the tour is to go to Jerusalem. So this is, she sets off in 326, so perhaps in the aftermath of the scandal, there's stories about her being very angry and upset about the murders of Crispus and Fausta. But she heads off to the east, so she's an Augusta. So after a really bad period in her life, she's now named Augusta Empress. She goes off on this massive eastern tour. She doesn't just go to the Holy Land, but she does go there, and this is part of the story later on. So she goes to Jerusalem, she goes to Bethlehem, she sees the church of the Holy Supplicia, the church of Nativity.

• 48:31Speaker 04

  And this story develops, not at the time, but maybe 75 years later, after her death, we first can trace it. The story comes that she discovered the relics of the True Cross.

• 48:41Greg Jenner?

  Ah.

• 48:42Speaker 04

  But she, I mean, she didn't, sorry.

• 48:45Greg Jenner?

  Maybe she did. Okay, so.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, so she goes off on this massive tour, and she's really old at this point.

• 48:52Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I was going to say, because in Constantine, by this point, he's in his 50s.

• 48:55Speaker 04

  Yes, and so we think that by the time she dies, yeah, 328, she could have been around 80. So she returns home after this grand tour, she dies, and her son has her buried in Rome. She is hugely important as a role model for later Byzantine empresses, and of course, she is declared a saint. But then so is Constantine, who I think maybe devalues the brand somewhat.

• 49:16Greg Jenner?

  So, Ivo, we have Constantine, the first Christian Roman emperor, and his mum is this sort of Christian who's gone on tour and seen all the holy relics. So we can imagine that this, you know, faith is very important to them. So I want to ask you, at what point did Constantine get baptised as a Christian?

• 49:33Speaker 05

  Oh, ludicrously late.

• 49:36Greg Jenner?

  How late can you go?

• 49:37Speaker 05

  Couldn't fit his head in the font.

• 49:40Speaker 05

  You know, it's 60, at the age of 60.

• 49:43Greg Jenner?

  Later than that, probably.

• 49:44Speaker 05

  Later than that, 69.

• 49:45Greg Jenner?

  It's, I mean, it's as late as you can go, really, Lucy.

• 49:48Speaker 04

  I mean, they're quite keen on a deathbed baptism. To be fair to Constantine, deathbed baptism is quite popular in early Christianity, because you're not supposed to sin after you're baptised. Which is quite hard for most, for most people.

• 50:01Greg Jenner?

  Certainly for Constantine, going around murdering everyone.

• 50:03Speaker 04

  Absolutely. So he's, so he's probably about 65, 337. He's out east, preparing for a military campaign against the Persians, and he gets ill. And at this point, pretty much on his deathbed, he's baptised by the local bishop. Anti-San Constantius brings his body to Constantinople, which seems fitting, and he gets buried sort of with full honours in the, yeah, the mausoleum of the Holy Apostles.

• 50:28Greg Jenner?

  And the bishop who baptises him, Bishop Eusabius, is that the same person who writes the sources?

• 50:32Speaker 04

  No, that would be too useful. People having the same name, I'm sorry. Eusabius of Nicomachea versus Eusabius of Caesarea, sorry.

• 50:40Greg Jenner?

  Nothing in this episode is simple. Just, just one, just one simple thing is all we want.

• 50:45Speaker 05

  This is an above-averagely complicated episode.

• 50:47Greg Jenner?

  I mean, honestly, I am struggling to even figure out what's happened, and I'm, I'm going to be hosting this. It's, it's a very complicated life. I'm so sorry, Ivo, you've come in for your debut and, you know, we've, we've thrown you a hospital pass.

• 50:58Speaker 05

  That's absolutely fine. You know, I think getting tetrachy wrong suggests that I would have struggled even with the simpler stories.

• 51:04Speaker 04

  I still feel bad about that.

• 51:06Speaker 05

  Not at all, please.

• 51:07Greg Jenner?

  What do you think happened to the Roman Empire after Constantine's death? You know, he had reunited as one consolidated thing, and he founded this brand-new city. What do you think happened?

• 51:15Speaker 05

  Strength to strength.

• 51:16Greg Jenner?

  Yeah?

• 51:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolute dynasty. Still going, isn't it?

• 51:21Speaker 05

  No, I think it's obviously a hotbed of opportunists, ready to jump on the grave of any freshly baptised Constantine. I think there's, but I couldn't work out, one of his sons, maybe?

• 51:34Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 51:35Speaker 05

  He's got three sons and a daughter.

• 51:36Greg Jenner?

  That's right.

• 51:36Speaker 05

  So that should be, should be able to have a bit of protection of the... And Constantius just did something good, didn't he? What did Constantius do about two minutes ago?

• 51:47Speaker 04

  Buried his dad.

• 51:48Speaker 05

  Oh, he buried him. Oh, yes, sorry. But so, yeah, I think surely the family name sort of stumbles on a little longer.

• 51:57Greg Jenner?

  I think that's a really good answer.

• 51:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, and basically it does, but with a good bit of added murder.

• 52:01Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 52:02Speaker 04

  So Constantine has got these three sons. He's also got two nephews, a bit optimistically perhaps, to have five potential successors. So, yes, what do you think his sons do? They go on a total killing spree. They kill off the cousins, basically. Any surviving male relatives are either killed or put under house arrest. In fact, only two sort of extended family male members survive, one of whom will then become the exciting Emperor Julian the Apostate. That is a story for another day. But, yeah, so we're left with Constantine II, Constantius II and Constan's empire goes on.

• 52:42Greg Jenner?

  So they split the empire three ways. So he reconcolidated back into one and they split it into three, which is the same thing that happened after Alexander the Great, isn't it?

• 52:51Speaker 04

  Yes, it's, well, yeah. I mean, there's a very boring, nerdy thing about how it doesn't officially get divided into some years later, but you really don't want that.

• 52:59Greg Jenner?

  So there we go. So the Roman Empire sort of barrels on afterwards, changed because he's introduced Christianity. Some emperors resist that again and push back again.

• 53:07Speaker 04

  Only, yeah, just Julian the Apostate.

• 53:09Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, but then eventually Christianity wins out. So it's been a wild and bloody ride. How do you feel about Constantine? Does he deserve the title "The Great"?

• 53:18Speaker 05

  They were just doling that out, weren't they, back in the day? I'm fine with that. I mean, it's very impressive, what, you know, everything he's done. And I, you know, I've had a fair bit of Christianity in my own life, so, you know, cheers. I think, I think what's so sort of bleak about the relentless sort of normalisation of murder is like you then hear, well, the sons divided three ways and they, obviously, you know, brothers is, you know, better than nephews. But surely if secondary family members can be dispensed with so easily, how are you not constantly looking over your shoulder at your own brother as well?

• 54:02Speaker 05

  You know, I'm sorry to refer so incredibly basicly to the opening scene of The Dark Knight, where just that every single person gets picked off as soon as they cease to be useful to the operation.

• 54:13Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 54:13Speaker 05

  And that's sort of what this feels like, really.

• 54:15Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, it is.

• 54:16Speaker 05

  I love the sort of conclusion to be, the great way that Constantine was, not only was he such an impressive conqueror of the world, but his Christian values really inspired a bit of loyalty in subsequent generations of his family.

• 54:30Greg Jenner?

  No, I'm afraid not. I mean, the son and the father, you know, were united in the Nicene Creed, but the son and the father didn't really unite politically. They were just at each other's throats and that's the story of Rome, I'm afraid, until the fall of Rome or the Western, the fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 470s. So there we go. That's Constantine. He's dead now.

• 54:46Speaker 05

  Oh, sorry. And only just baptised, heartbreaking, but that's the point.

• 54:51Greg Jenner?

  That's the point, wiped clean of all the sin.

• 54:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:55Greg Jenner?

  The Nuance Window!

• 55:00Greg Jenner?

  Okay, it's time now for the Nuance Window. This is where Ivo and I sit quietly for two minutes, drawing up blueprints for our dream cities, while Professor Lucy takes to the forum to tell us something we need to know about Emperor Constantine. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Grig.

• 55:16Speaker 04

  Thank you. So as I've made it clear, it's very hard to find a reliable account of the life of Constantine. We've got these very polarised sources. We've got a propaganda, you know, the remains of a propaganda campaign that sends out to deliberately obfuscate. His legacy is very important. Not all of it is controversial, though. We do know that he brought about massively important changes, geopolitical changes. He made massive reforms in the army, the economy, obviously religion, and founded Constantinople. But he's also very famous for something he didn't do at all, which I wanted to talk about. And so as we discussed, he was baptised on his deathbed by an Arian bishop, Eusebius of Nicomedia, despite the Nicene Creed. It's an inconvenient fact.

• 56:01Speaker 04

  Don't let an inconvenient fact get in the way of the story. So a new story develops that he's baptised by a much more respectable bishop, Sylvester, Bishop of Rome. And this then becomes part of one of the most famous historical forgeries of all time, the donation of Constantine. And so the story here is that Constantine has leprosy and is cured by Bishop Sylvester. That's when he converts to Christianity. And he grants Sylvester, the Pope, you might say, and the Roman Church some major powers. So supremacy over all the churches in the world. Also, he grants to the Bishop of Rome temporal authority over Rome and territories. And this is backed up by a document, the donation of Constantine,

• 56:43Speaker 04

  and that's repeatedly invoked for centuries in battles between the church and governments, but also between the church in the East and the West, who obviously are not very keen on being ruled by the Church of Rome. But guess what, of course, as I've said, it's a forgery. And it doesn't get uncovered until the mid 15th century. A Renaissance humanist and indeed priest, good for him, Lorenzo Vala, proves that it was a forgery. But the legacy of Constantine as a legacy of fake news really went on for a long time.

• 57:12Greg Jenner?

  Amazing, 1 minute 57. Incredible timekeeping. So fake news, forgeries.

• 57:19Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 57:20Greg Jenner?

  Is there anything legitimate about Constantine the Great? I mean, I guess there are plenty of legacies of him politically, but I mean, how do you feel about his posthumous life?

• 57:28Speaker 05

  I don't know anything about it. Yeah, everything I know about Constantine's coming in the last hour.

• 57:33Speaker 04

  Jolly good.

• 57:34Speaker 05

  But I've got a statue to visit when I go to York next on tour.

• 57:37Greg Jenner?

  You do, it's a nice statue. He's sitting in his throne.

• 57:39Speaker 05

  Fantastic.

• 57:39Greg Jenner?

  He looks very imperial. Are we pro or anti or neutral on Constantine the Great?

• 57:44Speaker 05

  I think, I think anti. I've got to say, it sounds like a bloody nightmare.

• 57:51Greg Jenner?

  So what do you know now?

• 57:56Greg Jenner?

  Okay, well, it's time now for the quiz. This is the So What Do You Know Now? This is where we find out how much Ivo can remember from our absolutely chaotic conversation.

• 58:05Speaker 05

  Do I get to look at my notes during the quiz?

• 58:07Greg Jenner?

  Absolutely, that's what they're for. Ivo, generally, I imagine you're quite good at quizzes. I imagine, you've said you're not, but I think you test well.

• 58:14Speaker 05

  That's good, it depends how much I'm able to revise. I've done okay on a couple of quizzes.

• 58:19Greg Jenner?

  You've made some notes.

• 58:20Speaker 05

  And I've made some notes for this.

• 58:21Greg Jenner?

  Fab, so let's see what you do. 10 questions. I will be generous as a marker because honestly, some of this stuff I can't remember because it's been so chaotic.

• 58:28Speaker 04

  Likewise.

• 58:29Greg Jenner?

  But let's have a go. Okay, question one. What was unusual about Constantine's parents' relationship?

• 58:34Speaker 05

  Different classes.

• 58:35Greg Jenner?

  They were absolutely, they were sort of, you know, she was maybe lower status and he was high status. Question two. Which Christian persecuting emperor founded the first tetrarchy then retired to his garden?

• 58:45Speaker 05

  Of course, it was Diocletian.

• 58:48Greg Jenner?

  Very good, Mr Cadwich himself. Question three. What mode of transport did Constantine use?

• 58:53Speaker 05

  Horse.

• 58:54Greg Jenner?

  Very good.

• 58:55Speaker 05

  But in a round of, a sort of not direct horse.

• 58:57Greg Jenner?

  Absolutely, fast horses but long way round.

• 58:59Speaker 05

  Fantastic.

• 59:00Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, very good. Question four. In which city was Constantine first proclaimed emperor by his army?

• 59:05Speaker 05

  York.

• 59:06Greg Jenner?

  It was, Iboricum, York. Question five.

• 59:08Speaker 05

  You'll accept the English translation, won't you?

• 59:10Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, sorry. After receiving a vision, supposedly, what did Constantine put on his soldier's shield before the Battle of Milvian Bridge?

• 59:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's there, it's there, the Cairo.

• 59:21Greg Jenner?

  It was the Cairo, the Christian imagery, the first letters of Christ's name in Greek. Question six. What city did Constantine found in 330?

• 59:27Speaker 05

  Constantinople.

• 59:28Greg Jenner?

  It was, that's quite an easy one, isn't it? Question seven. Why did Constantine kill his wife, Fausta, and eldest son, Crispus?

• 59:35Speaker 05

  Incest.

• 59:36Greg Jenner?

  Supposedly.

• 59:37Speaker 05

  Supposedly, supposedly.

• 59:38Greg Jenner?

  Supposedly, it's a trope. Question eight, you're doing very well, by the way. Question eight. What happened to Constantine's co-emperor, Lycaenus, and his son Lycaenus II?

• 59:51Speaker 05

  What did happen to them? I mean, dead, but...

• 59:53Greg Jenner?

  I'll take dead, yeah, executed by Constantine. Question nine. What did Helena, Constantine's mother, allegedly find in Jerusalem?

• 1:00:01Speaker 05

  Oh, some, the relics of the True Cross.

• 1:00:04Greg Jenner?

  Absolutely, very good. And question 10, for a perfect 10 out of 10, Ivo Graham. When was Constantine the Great baptised?

• 1:00:12Speaker 05

  On his deathbed.

• 1:00:13Greg Jenner?

  Yay, you've done it, well done. Hugely impressive, given that we, even the historians in the room didn't know what was happening for half of the point. I mean, absolute chaos.

• 1:00:23Speaker 05

  I think you gave me the benefit of the doubt on a couple of those.

• 1:00:26Greg Jenner?

  No, no, I think you did very, very well.

• 1:00:27Speaker 05

  The vomorant just rather pathetically said murdered.

• 1:00:30Greg Jenner?

  True, absolutely true. Thank you so much, Ivo. I hope you've enjoyed that slightly, I mean, wild ride.

• 1:00:37Speaker 05

  I've enjoyed it a great deal, of course.

• 1:00:39Greg Jenner?

  We've loved having you in, thank you.

• 1:00:40Speaker 05

  It's a real then, but for the grace of God, you're like, you know, another big thumbs up for the 21st century.

• 1:00:45Greg Jenner?

  And this is why you want to avoid politics, right? You've made the right decision. Comedy, not politics. Listener, of course, if you want more murderous Roman emperors, check out our episodes on the rise of Julius Caesar. We've got Agrippina the Younger. We've got Emperor Nero, that's with Patton Oswalt and Mary Beard. To hear more about the Christianisation of the Roman Empire, we've got an episode on Hypatia of Alexandria. Plus, of course, we've got an episode on Constantinople, the city that Constantine founded. We talk about the Ottoman era with Sue Perkins. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear the show 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can listen at bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in history corner. We had the legendary Professor Lucy Grig from the University of Edinburgh. Thank you, Lucy.

• 1:01:30Greg Jenner?

  Pleasure. And in comedy corner, we had the incredible Ivo Graham, the great indeed. Thank you, Ivo.

• 1:01:35Speaker 05

  Thank you very much, Grig.

• 1:01:38Greg Jenner?

  And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we launch another campaign into the far reaches of the past. But for now, I'm off to go and retire my microphone and plant my vegetable garden. If it's good enough for Diocletian, it's good enough for me. Bye!

• 1:02:05Speaker 04

  Hello, it is Danny Robbins here. For years now on Uncanny, we have explored real people's potentially paranormal experiences. But one thing that listeners have often asked me is why don't we look at supernatural cases from the past? Well, you asked and we listened. Our new series, Uncanny Cold Cases, takes a deep dive into some of these stories, from the Most Haunted House in England to the original UFO abduction case. Can we make sense of these strange stories that have haunted history? Uncanny Cold Cases, listen on BBC Sounds.

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  How do you build a career you're proud of? It's easy to get caught up in the impact you hope to have or the legacy you want to leave behind. But how much of that is actually within your control? Something that I believe is that legacy is totally out of your control. Like, legacy is something that other people determine. But what is in your control is contribution and your actions around that. I really grew up, you know, into my 20s, maybe even 30s, thinking that, that like if I didn't do something that meaningful and important, then like I hadn't done something worthwhile. Find out how to build a career you're proud of in this episode of my podcast, Work Life, featuring actress and director Bryce Dallas Howard. And don't worry, we'll get into the nepo baby conversation.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  I'm Molly Graham and you can find Work Life, a podcast from TED, wherever you listen.