JRE MMA Show #170 with Michael "Venom" Page

Joe sits down with Michael "Venom" Page, a professional mixed martial artist currently competing in the Welterweight and Middleweight divisions of the Ultimate Fighting Championship.www.ufc.com/athlete/michael-page Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/joerogan 50% off your first box at https://www.thefarmersdog.com/rogan! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:13Speaker 00

  All right.

• 0:14Joe Rogan?

  MVP in the house. The most enigmatic, difficult dude to solve in all of MMA. That's you, man.

• 0:22Speaker 00

  Bro, you know what? I always, I want to start simply because you, what you have done for me specifically, I get a lot of criticism, a lot of hate, and especially obviously jumping when I first got into the, into the MMA world. New to me, and I'm just like, okay, let me just be myself, do my thing. First fight goes well, land this crazy kick, goes viral, and I get nothing but hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. But then having prominent figures like yourself that are constantly have been champion my style, champion, champion in the, like the points element of things, I just appreciate

• 1:07Speaker 00

  you for that.

• 1:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my pleasure, brother. I appreciate you. It's almost like we called for you because there was a time in the early days of MMA, like in the early 2000s, where I was like, this is what's missing. What's missing is point fighters. And people would like mock me. They'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I've sparred with these dudes. You can't hit them. It's a different thing. I'm like, they have a very specific skill. That skill of closing distance and being elusive. It's not like any other sport. It's almost like fencing and MMA combined, or martial arts combined.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I always tell people that, like, most of the combat sports, in terms of kickboxing, the full contact side of things is more to do with the, there's a fixation on power, knocking people out. Whereas our element is just the speed element.

• 1:52Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  Getting in and getting out, not getting touched. Like you said, the tag, tag kind of feel fencing, similar kind of footwork. And yeah, just not many people had decided to cross over to... Any kind of full contact world, really. Um, and he had the likes of Wonder Boy Thompson.

• 2:10Joe Rogan?

  Raymond Daniels.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  Raymond Daniels.

• 2:12Joe Rogan?

  You and Raymond were the most prominent ones, and him in glory, of course, you.

• 2:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Well, he did a little bit MMA.

• 2:18Joe Rogan?

  A little bit MMA, yeah. But you're more prominent in MMA. But the, the point was that this was an element that when, I remember when I was doing Taekwondo and I would fight in tournaments, I would occasionally fight in point fighting tournaments. And if, I'd fight a guy like Mafia Holloway or one of these guys that were really good, I'd be like, this is crazy. This is such a crazy skill.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  Very different.

• 2:38Joe Rogan?

  And when I saw MMA where a lot of guys were just like, like real flat footed and waiting, I'm like, there's a giant opening here.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 2:45Joe Rogan?

  And then you came along.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:46Joe Rogan?

  And you really were the proof of concept.

• 2:49Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:49Joe Rogan?

  And I was like, okay, this is it. You get a world champion at that who figures all the other stuff out because essentially striking is striking. You know, you can learn throwing leg kicks differently. You can learn, you know, different stances and movements. The grappling is the big, that's the big hurdle.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:06Joe Rogan?

  But once you can solve the takedown defense and some of the grappling hurdles, and you've got, actually got submission victories, then you got a real problem because every fight starts standing up.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 3:16Joe Rogan?

  Every fight starts standing up with a big ass fucking cage. It's a big ass cage. And I see guys like Kevin Holland, like, he's like, what the fuck do I do with this guy?

• 3:27Speaker 00

  He hated every moment of it.

• 3:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  I could feel it. But that's, that's just part of my style is that kind of frustrating people because it's just so unfamiliar. For like, for someone like yourself, you would kind of be in there, whether you're successful or not, you'd understand what's happening. And you'd, you'd be calm enough still to be like, okay, I need to know how to figure this out because I've, I've experienced this before.

• 3:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  For someone that's never experienced, and because there's few of us in the MMA world, who do you go to to train?

• 3:56Joe Rogan?

  You, there's very few people that are really good at that.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. And like I said, Wonder Boy Thompson.

• 4:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  He, you know, friend of mine, uh, obviously me and him and, you know, just us getting on, and he's even said people have contacted him, like, oh yeah, okay, I'm fighting MVP, like, I want to train with you. He's like, I want MVP to win, so.

• 4:18Joe Rogan?

  I can't help you, bro.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  Can't, can't, can't do anything.

• 4:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's, it's good for the sport.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:24Joe Rogan?

  It really is because, you know, like, think about there's certain techniques that just come along like the calf kick. And all of a sudden, like, how is this, people have been kicking legs for so long, how is this kicking a different spot on the leg? Kind of revolution.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:37Joe Rogan?

  We need to see that.

• 4:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:39Joe Rogan?

  And I think the introduction of you is gonna make a lot of these guys that are like high level point guys go, hmm. There's a, there's a spot there for me.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:47Joe Rogan?

  Because the open, like, there's always an advantage in the fact that every round starts standing up.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:52Joe Rogan?

  As, as long as you have takedown defense, every round starts in your realm.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:57Joe Rogan?

  And your realm is different than all the other stand-up realms. It's totally different. And if a guy is a plotting guy and he thinks, oh, this is my world, like, that's not your world.

• 5:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:08Joe Rogan?

  It's not your, it's your world against someone who agrees to fight the way you fight.

• 5:11Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 5:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 00

  And I always say that is because I, you know, of course, come up against guys and was like, man, he can, he's got big, big hit, a big punch on him. And I agree, I'm like, yeah, I get it, but power only means something if you land.

• 5:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:24Speaker 00

  And my whole element is like not being touched.

• 5:27Joe Rogan?

  It's also fucking with people's heads.

• 5:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:29Joe Rogan?

  One of the, one of the things you did during the Jared Cannonier fight, after you hit him, you're like, calm down. Calm down, I was like, oh no. Because you imagine just getting popped, your eyes are running, your nose hurts. And this dude standing in front of you going, calm down, calm down, like, no, he didn't. Oh no. It's psychological warfare.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  But that's the end, that's obviously, that's kind of like part of my personality coming out. And the entertaining side of me and a lot, obviously, added to the criticism that I would get, which because of how I would make my opponents feel in terms of their frustration and then obviously the antics on top of it, so many people, the, the, the, the main term that came with me was like, oh, he's fighting cans. He's fighting cans, that, that my whole career was, oh, he's fighting cans, like, he can't. But I always say to people is, I'm just making it seem. A lot less difficult than it actually is. These guys are super talented fighters.

• 6:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 6:29Speaker 00

  I'm just not fighting on the same wavelength and timing as them. As you said, these guys that plod around, they're so used to it. So when they're fighting other people, it looks very even. And when they're fighting somebody that they just can't get their hands on.

• 6:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:42Speaker 00

  And they're getting frustrated on top of that. So there's the mental side, the physical side.

• 6:47Joe Rogan?

  And you have a lot of power, so there's consequences.

• 6:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's consequences.

• 6:50Joe Rogan?

  It's not like you're ti- you know, tippy-tappy.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:53Joe Rogan?

  Patting them.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:54Joe Rogan?

  Every now and then, like the Cyborg fight was one of the craziest knockouts in all of MMA history.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  Ah, you know, one thing I actually wanted to do, I actually brought some gifts for you. But one of the things I actually wanted to bring for you.

• 7:05Joe Rogan?

  Don't tell me you brought a piece of his head.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  He wouldn't let me have that, so yeah, I have to leave it. I actually wanted to, we, we basically had a pokeball come, it was a very specific one. And they messed up on delivery, but I'm gonna get it to you in Vegas.

• 7:21Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  So when we go over to Vegas, I'm just making sure. I, I get that to you because again, it's something that you've spoken about with me. And it's a big, it's a big part of my, my history in MMA, just that, that Cyborg fight, so.

• 7:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that was the most gruesome injury I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of broken bones. I've never seen someone with a caved in head.

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, the doctors were saying that, um, what we were hearing back from, they said he's only ever seen that in a car accident, never in.

• 7:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's his head.

• 7:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:51Joe Rogan?

  That is so crazy.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:54Joe Rogan?

  And that was his last fight. And I know after the fight, he was like, we're gonna fight again. The doctor's like, hey.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, cuz I think he was. I'm so- someone sent me something where he was supposed to fight again. And then I, I'm not sure what happened there, but yeah, he didn't.

• 8:07Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy. How could you fight again after that?

• 8:09Speaker 00

  What made it, I felt very bad, obviously, at the time as well. But then I didn't see him for another two years.

• 8:18Joe Rogan?

  Boom. That was just.

• 8:21Speaker 00

  And the sound, the sound that was.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  It's only when I watched it back.

• 8:25Joe Rogan?

  Give me the sound, Jamie.

• 8:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it sounds like a baseball bat on a pumpkin. You know what I mean? Just whap. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by the Apple Sports App. Guys, this is the ultimate best time of the year to be a sports fan. Football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer. The calendar is stacked, but it can also be hard to keep track of it all. And that is where the Apple Sports App comes into play. It is the fastest and easiest way to stay on top of all the action. With scores and play by play automatically showing up on your iPhone when the teams you follow are playing. That means you don't have to figure out when the games are on and how your team is doing,

• 9:19Joe Rogan?

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• 11:42Speaker 00

  The thing is, I didn't know. I keep telling everybody I didn't know what happened because obviously they're like, you celebrated, like threw the poker ball at him afterwards. I did not know.

• 11:50Joe Rogan?

  You thought it was just a knockout?

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, this was a knockout. And obviously, because I'm kicking his legs, I'm assuming maybe I broke his nose or... Because I can see he's not out, but he's in pain. It must be something like that. It was only the next day that I found out. But yeah, it was a bad one.

• 12:05Joe Rogan?

  That was a bad one?

• 12:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was a very bad one. And the thing is, like I said, I met him, I want to say like two, two and a half years later down the line. Obviously, this clip's just been going crazy online and so on and so forth. And I just, I felt awkward. I didn't want to... But also, he had come over for another MMA show, but with one of his students. But one of his students was fighting one of my teammates. And at the beginning, my coaches were like, oh, do you want to, you know, go and, at some point, go and see him and say hello? I was like, yeah, please, like I'd love to because that's the last time I saw him. The fight happens, and my teammate is known for his leg locks and breaks his student's leg.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  So I'm like, for fuck's sake.

• 12:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  So afterwards, they're like, do you want to go and see him? I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd try. I just felt like I needed to.

• 13:00Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  And I kind of walk into the room. His guy's obviously upset for losing. He's like getting sorted out by the medics, and he's sitting there, just looks at me, and I'm like, hey?

• 13:13Speaker 00

  What do you say like unlucky like I was just like he's like shook my hand like I could just feel the energy wasn't right it just wasn't the right time but I didn't know when I would get to see him again and I haven't again since so yeah I just felt it's just one of those things I just felt bad yeah but what do you do There's nothing Yeah yeah what do you do what do you do Guy's got a broken leg you broke his head Stay the fuck away from you and your crew

• 13:44Speaker 00

  I mean at least you're nice about it and friendly it is what it is Yeah yeah it's such interesting because you've trained with Marius my coaches one of my coaches Marius and obviously he says to say hello Thomas said hi Yeah yeah yeah he said he's training with you guys I think you guys trained for about four years with Eddie Bravo as well Yeah I've known him for 20 years yeah Crazy crazy Crazy And that's obviously that's a big part of my my history now with them them two the brothers Alexis and Marius Were you at the gym when Lee Murray was no? No no I was just after

• 14:22Speaker 00

  Luckily But interestingly though when I was in at the time that I he was around I was still very like heavily focused on the points fighting kickboxing so but a friend of mine was training at SHU and he was like you need to come and train with these guys like these guys are serious and but for me MMA was just never gonna be a thing that I'd ever see myself in Really? I've always seen it as I guess like your average fan back in the day and some fans now of like ah it's brutal man like I Right And again I'm a points fighter like I don't see myself being good enough to or tough enough to fight these guys like What changed?

• 15:03Speaker 00

  Obviously, I had a successful career in the kickboxing, but it didn't really go anywhere. It's like you're fighting the same people, like the amount of times me and Raymond have fought, and we were like the, some of the top two guys, like we were both in the competition. Like we both walk in the room, everyone was like, oh my god, these guys are gonna fight, like, we were the guys. But I'm fighting the same people and it's just like everything, everyone hoping that you're gonna lose or your fans are kinda like supporting you. And then I come back to reality, come off a plane, I've travelled, I've fought all the, you know, the whole week or whatever. Won a world title and I've come back home and nothing. Yeah. I come back home to just me being myself, just me being me, which I'm okay with.

• 15:48Speaker 00

  But there's no recognition, there was no sponsorship, I paid to do everything and I loved it. And if I could choose the route again, I'd still do it, cause I absolutely loved it. But there comes a, I'm getting older and it comes to a point where I have to, and I'm now starting to, but at the time, I'm a kid, but now it's getting to the point where I have to work and so on. Now it's like, I can't do this forever, but at the same time, I know I want to compete for a living. I just didn't know what in what. So then I said to myself, okay, cool. Let me, I need to take a step away from this. I know while I'm in this, this will be a distraction.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  I'm not gonna be able to focus on things, cause another competition that I'm gonna wanna win is gonna come up and it's gonna turn my attention. So I said, look, I'm gonna, I said to everyone, I'm retired. I thought, let me say it to as many people as possible, so then it's hard for me to turn back on it. So I'm just like, yeah, okay, yeah, I'm retiring, no, not fighting again, yeah, this is my last fight, da da da da. And I said, cool. Started to go around looking at boxing gyms, looking at full contact kickboxing, looking at MMA gyms. And the first gym I actually went to was in Miami, Coconut Creek American Top Team. Ah. Yeah, cause my sister used to live in that area, cause I got siblings over in America as well.

• 17:15Speaker 00

  So came out there and in my head at the time, there's only few people from the UK that was doing anything in MMA. So when I was like, maybe I'm gonna try MMA, I was like, I obviously have to go to America. And I'm lucky enough to have siblings that live over there, so I'm good. So get to America, get to American top team, I go in there. I'm like, this is where I'm gonna start. Like I've met a couple of the coaches and just kind of just like general chit chat. I didn't tell them who I was or anything, just kind of saw the vibe, the facilities are amazing. I was like, yeah, this is, this is gonna be my new life. And then I get back to England and a good friend of mine, Marvin Francis, was like, just in case, just have a look at some gyms over here, you don't know.

• 17:58Speaker 00

  Just while before, because obviously I've got things to sort out before I can just make the full move. So while you're doing that, let's have a look at a couple of gyms. And we did some research, we went to a couple of the Gracie gyms, went to a few other gyms that was around. Then I found London Shootfighters. I hadn't done any research and at this time, I personally wasn't watching MMA at all. The only person I knew.

• 18:17Joe Rogan?

  What year is this?

• 18:19Speaker 00

  Uh, so I'd have been.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  I'd have been what, twenty four? So what's that about?

• 18:33Speaker 00

  It's over twelve, thirteen years back. And I was trying to say that only guys in the UK would have been, Brad Pickett was fighting.

• 18:46Joe Rogan?

  Solid fighter.

• 18:47Speaker 00

  Solid fighter. Michael Bisping was fighting. But and nobody had like achieved anything of big quality from there, everything, everything was in America.

• 18:57Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Was Bisping still living in England or had he moved to America?

• 19:02Speaker 00

  I think he was still in, I think he was still in England, yeah, yeah. Um, but again, I was only learning it as I got more into it. But initially I just thought, I made the decision without actually researching anything, which is very much like me. I'll just.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  Jump in headfirst.

• 19:20Joe Rogan?

  Figure it out.

• 19:24Speaker 00

  So I literally, I said to myself, okay, cool. I've got to London shoot fighters and the only person I knew was Chuck Liddell that's I've actually seen. And I just was like, this guy was just knocking people out. I was like, that's, I could relate to that. I was like, he's a striker. Everything else I didn't really care for. I was typical fan. Like when they got on the floor, I was like.

• 19:48Speaker 00

  Get stand up, stand them up. So I've never been to a show, anything, but these, he's a guy that I like watching. And then I wanna, I made a decision, I wanna do it. Cool. Uh, started in London shoot fighters and for some reason, the guys there, I don't know, cause I've, I've had good coaching.

• 20:11Speaker 00

  So in my upbringing, so I can, I feel like I can hear sense when I've gone to a place, I'm, I'm hearing how they're coaching and what they're saying. And I'm like, it just makes sense to me. I was like, cool, I'm gonna start here. I still wanna go to America, but I'll start here for now. And then just see where it goes. And I just fell in love with the place. Was that the first time you did any grappling at all? Any grappling at all. Wow. Didn't do, and I, I, all I was doing every day was applauding people, cause I was tapping every two seconds.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  Every two seconds. Frustrating, right? But I loved it though. Oh, well, you have a good mindset. Yeah, it was, it was weird. Like I kind of enjoyed the fact that like, I'm looking at this guy, like if I saw you on the street in my head. Right. I'm destroying you. Yeah. But this guy just twisted me up into a pretzel. It's a humiliating feeling. Oh, so humiliating. But I, again, I crave, I, if I go back to the point side, from about, like, you, you met my brother outside.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  Him, he's my, he's the oldest of my siblings, uh, sorry, of my, the, the boys. Uh, my sister's the oldest, then it's my brother. I've got two other brothers than me. And at the time, we were fighting around, but they were winning everything. I used to get my ass kicked everywhere we went.

• 21:31Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 21:32Speaker 00

  And this is every single weekend.

• 21:34Joe Rogan?

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• 22:45Speaker 00

  Like he was, for me, he was the more talented one. But I mean, like every single weekend, we're driving to Birmingham to Manchester, to Scotland. We did trips everywhere. Like my dad started a gym and he was going around everywhere. And every weekend, it's like three hours that way, four hours this way, just coming back and I'm just kind of boss lip.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  And they're just, the medals are just like bling, bling, bling, bling, bling. Like they've got all the medals and they're talking about how they spin kick some guy and they did this. And I'm just like, yeah, yeah, cool, cool story. And I got destroyed for.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Four, five years and when I, I got to a qualifiers. Uh, it's in Birmingham. Uh, it was an I, I ask a qualifiers and I, I managed to win that, which that in itself was success for me. Like, I'm like, oh man, I qualified to go to the world championships. I've already done well. Everyone else was, they were supposed to do it, like they're good enough to have the expectation of themselves. So then I get to the world championships and the way they seed fighters in the U S was very different to the U K at the time. So I had one fight, another fight, another fight and I'm winning. And I'm like happy and like I must be in like the finals already.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  And then they're like, okay, bring the seeders fighters in. And then there's like a shitload of fighters during your, your, your mat. And I'm like, oh, my, my dad would tell me, he's like, yeah, I think you're in a, in a, in the semis. I think you're in the quarters. And then he was like, bro, just keep fighting. He said, he couldn't work it out. I don't know, seriously, I, I genuinely don't remember. I just remember just feeling tired and I, I didn't understand why this was still going on. Cause in the competitions, three, four fights, you're in a final. Right. And I, I was at least ten fights deep and still felt like I was fighting. All in a day? In a day. Wow. So there's a, again, the I ask a world champions in Orlando, Florida.

• 24:49Speaker 00

  And it's, it's a, it was the big, at the time, the biggest, uh, points kickboxing competition. So there's thousands and thousands of competitors, kids, adults doing forms, doing, you know, caters and all this stuff. And then the, you had the points fighting, the light contact fighting and that was it. Um, and yeah, it just all day. And then it literally got to this like, okay, uh, I won a fight and the guy was like, okay, you're in the final next. The referee said that to me and I was like, oh, like I can't believe I'm in the final. And this guy was very good. I can't remember his name. He was young. I was, I think it was like twelve or eleven at the time. And I won the fight, just collapsed to my, like my, my back.

• 25:31Speaker 00

  I was just like, oh my God, everyone ran in there. Cause again, nobody expected that of me. And I remember going in there, the trophy itself was six foot tall. And in my head, I was like, I just want one in my house. And I managed to to win that, but something that competition clicked. So all the times I was getting beaten up, all the competitions I was getting destroyed at, and I wasn't even like close, I was getting destroyed. I won, I won this competition and I went back home and every person I used to get destroyed by, I was smoking them, like something was different. Instantaneously. There's, there's a weird shift that just went click. Wow.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  And all the kicks that would, I'd walk into it face first. I was like, oh, actually I can do this. I was like. Wow, you entered into the matrix. I'd literally, I'd just, I, to the point, to the point where, so when I, when I went back home, I was like 12 and for the year of that circuit, I, I didn't lose a fight. And this is from, this is from getting whooped. That's crazy. And this is, I'm fighting all the same guys that I grew up with. And they must have been like, what the hell? Yeah, what the hell's going on here? Then the, when I was 13, I asked my dad, I was like, can I please fight in the seniors? And the seniors are 18 plus. And he was like, and he said it to me, he said it to me later on. He was like, as a coach, I knew you could. As your dad, I was like, hell no.

• 26:57Speaker 00

  And I begged him, like every competition, he goes like, please can I fight in the seniors, please? And there was a big, uh, British championship competition and I, I begged, I was like, please, like, like, he was like, you can do this one. And again, I don't think he, remember these guys are 18 plus, but all different sizes as well. I, I don't think, he knew I'd do well, but not as well as he, I did. So I won the, my senior division. Wow. For my weight. Um, and like I said, these are big men. But the problem is whoever, when you win, in this competition specifically, when you win your section, you go into the grand championships.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  And I'm like, Dad, you can't let me go. He's like, no, that's, this is different now, cause they're, they're the winners of their division. This is, that was your weight division. Now, these guys are the winners of their own weight. You can't do this. I begged him. And I beat everybody and got to the final. And the final was really, really close and I felt like I got robbed. And even my dad was like, he could never tell me no after that. Cause I destroyed some of the best fighters on the, in that, in the UK at the time.

• 28:08Joe Rogan?

  Do you think it was a confidence thing of having gone through that grueling tournament and proven that you could do it? And now you didn't have doubts in your mind anymore? Or was it, you had just seen so many different high levels of competition that like, maybe your own expectations had risen? Like, what, what was it that made that instantaneous shift? Because it's one thing to go and compete and do really well all of a sudden and like, now I'm competing. But then you went and you were doing it against people that were normally beating you.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:36Joe Rogan?

  And you're fucking them up.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:37Joe Rogan?

  That's, that's, that's like a fifty percent shift. That's a giant shift.

• 28:43Speaker 00

  I would say, one thing, obviously I hated losing, as anybody would, especially as a kid.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  And we also, and I think as all of us, we wasn't allowed. So a lot of, the kids would fight first and then the seniors would fight. But because we all traveled down together, we stayed the whole competition until the seniors were finished and we can drive back. A lot of the other kids were messing around when obviously, we, like, there's guys that I've spent, I've, I've known since I was eight years old that I'm still good friends with now. Because we were the kids like, playing with each other afterwards, like, just being all cool. But my dad was like, no, no, no, you represent me. You sit down and watch.

• 29:21Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  So as much as we could play a little bit, like, when he wasn't looking. But we had to try and get back to the mat to make sure we were watching people. And I, I feel like. I'm a visual learner and I feel like that helped me become that visual learner. As much as I was getting my ass kicked, I was also spending time watching amazing athletes.

• 29:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think it's an important thing to mention that at that time, there wasn't video readily available like there is today. Like, I remember the first time I went to the Taekwondo World Cup. It was in Colorado Springs in two thousand, I mean, not two thousand, nineteen eighty, I think it was eighty six. And the first time I went, I immediately got better just by seeing them. Just by seeing everybody. I just went as a spectator.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:08Joe Rogan?

  I hadn't beaten anybody to qualify for the nationals. So when I went there, the whole experience was just absorption.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 30:16Joe Rogan?

  And I came back and I was much better.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:19Joe Rogan?

  Much better. I'd never seen those guys live, but my expectations for competition, my expectations for movement and speed, everything had risen.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:27Joe Rogan?

  And at the time I was eighteen. So it was just, when you're eighteen, your brain just, you just absorb. You just absorb.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  And I think even more so when you're younger.

• 30:34Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  And for me.

• 30:36Joe Rogan?

  When you're a little kid, yeah.

• 30:37Speaker 00

  And I, like, I, my first competition, I was five years old. So that is just many years ago, being a.

• 30:44Joe Rogan?

  That's incredible though, because your body develops with that.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 30:47Joe Rogan?

  I started a little late. I started karate when I was fourteen and then wrestling and Taekwondo when I was fifteen.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 30:53Joe Rogan?

  But I wished I started earlier.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:55Joe Rogan?

  Because I was with these guys that were younger and their little bodies had like grown, stretching.

• 31:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:01Joe Rogan?

  They'd grown punching and kicking, like you develop into that.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, funny you say that. I, that's where my name came from. So Venom came from when I was nine. And the only kids that was in my dad's class at the time, mainly a far a few others. Because at the time, we did, it was basically one class. He didn't really separate the kids and adults. It was just one class. So you're, I'm trying my best, throwing everything in to hit adults.

• 31:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  They're not moving, but I'm trying my best to just get some kind of reaction. And then when I started hitting people my own size, even though I was losing, because they were, they just, obviously I was tall for my age as well. So I was fighting kids slightly more naturally developed than me, but I had a, had a whack on me.

• 31:49Joe Rogan?

  That's a great way to put it.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  You know what I mean, like, even though I, you know, I wasn't beating these guys, these guys were just way too fast for me, but when I hit them, they felt it. And it was one of my, again, Marvin was literally just like, you've got some venom in you, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we was very into like Kung Fu movies back in the day. And then, and I was very, um, creative mind, like I loved just, just even with my martial arts, I learned a jab like this and now I have to add something. I can't do things conventional. I've never, never liked to do it. If there's a, everyone's walking that way, like I want to see what's over there. I don't know what is wrong, I don't know what's wrong with me, but.

• 32:24Joe Rogan?

  Or what's right with you.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  Or what's right with me, but I just got that, like I was just curious and creative. And so there's a film called The Five Deadly Venoms, like old school, old school Kung Fu classic. And he would be like, yeah, five deadly villains, let's make a move for each, like, uh, thing, cause he'd be like scorpion or toad. And I would make up weird moves and try to add it into, and that was always my thing. I'd see something on the, in the movies and I'm like, I'm gonna try it in there, in there. This is all while I'm still getting beaten up, by the way, as well. But that never left me. So even when I started beating all these people now, I'm doing it with the style and flair of like, what more can I do?

• 33:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  You know what I mean?

• 33:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  So, yeah, yeah.

• 33:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's, it's so perfect for martial arts, for you, for MMA, because a lot of MMA is pattern recognition. You get, you get accustomed to certain types of movements. I know this guy's gonna do this, the calf kick's gonna be available, I'm gonna feint with this and I'm gonna throw that, I'm gonna shoot that double here because I know he's gonna come with the overhand, right? All these patterns, you don't have, you don't have normal patterns.

• 33:28Speaker 00

  At all.

• 33:29Joe Rogan?

  So you're moving around, your hands are down, you're sideways, they're like, and they have to make up new patterns as they go along. So they have to think.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:36Joe Rogan?

  They have to react. It's, it's such an advantage.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I always tell people that, like, the first time they're actually really gonna experience this style is on the night.

• 33:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  And you have to figure it out on the night.

• 33:47Joe Rogan?

  Because there's not enough guys that have what you can do that also compete in MMA.

• 33:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:53Joe Rogan?

  There's that, there's might be five or six in the whole world.

• 33:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:57Joe Rogan?

  Which is nuts.

• 33:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:59Joe Rogan?

  It's kind of nuts, man. It's, it's really the, I had been saying this for decades. I'm like, this is the one thing that's missing.

• 34:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:06Joe Rogan?

  And, and then when you came over, I was like, see? This is what I'm saying. This is crazy. You can't even hit him.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  It's weird though. It's a blessing and a curse.

• 34:17Speaker 00

  Blessing, obviously, being able, being, having the advantages of a fight. But sparring, headache. Earlier, a lot of people wanted to kind of like, hmm, let me see what this is about. Then the word spreads quite quickly. And I struggle with sparring. I think it's starting to come back now, people are a bit more willing. But I struggled with.

• 34:38Joe Rogan?

  You just couldn't get sparring.

• 34:39Speaker 00

  Couldn't get sparring, because also, and I kind of see it from other people's point of view. It's like, well, why, I'm not gonna fight anybody like that, so why? Why, why am I coming over?

• 34:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but if you saw that, if you, with your mindset.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm going over.

• 34:52Joe Rogan?

  You would be like, I gotta figure out what the fuck he's doing.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. And my teammates, they're forced to.

• 34:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 34:57Speaker 00

  And a lot of them, they even say like, I'd spar you, and then I'd go spar someone else, and they feel so slow. Because I'm, when I'm with you, my eyes are like this, like I'm, I'm, I'm forced to be like, ultra alert. And then I go and someone's trying to punch my ass.

• 35:11Joe Rogan?

  That's the thing too, it's exhausting.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:13Joe Rogan?

  It's exhausting. Your style's exhausting because you always have to be at high alert. There's no moment, because there's so many times where you've done like, like a, a shift in rhythm, and it looks like you're slowing down, and then you explode and crack people. And you've done that so successfully so many times, that if they've watched any tape, they know there's no, there's no moments where you could catch your breath. There's no moments. And you're always putting pressure on people. You're always fainting. And the faints alone, see, people don't even know, when you're just standing there, it looks like you're just standing there. But you're standing there, and a guy's fainting, and you, you never know when he's gonna actually launch, and you.

• 35:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:50Joe Rogan?

  Your whole body's constantly tense, you can't breathe.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  And that's just their energy bar, just doing this, without anything happening.

• 35:57Joe Rogan?

  Without anything, without any kicks landing.

• 35:59Speaker 00

  No punch, which is actually why I'm actually a big fan of like Tom Aspinall as well.

• 36:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:04Speaker 00

  You, you don't really see that anywhere, full stop, but definitely not in the heavyweight division.

• 36:08Joe Rogan?

  No heavyweight moves like him.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  No one, no one moves like him.

• 36:11Joe Rogan?

  He moves like a 185er.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  It's crazy, with that kind of explosive and that power, it's crazy.

• 36:16Joe Rogan?

  Crazy speed for a heavyweight.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Crazy, I'd love to see it.

• 36:19Joe Rogan?

  And that's why when the Jon Jones thing was being, you know, Jon is one of the, if not the greatest fighter of all time. But he's not the fastest guy in the world.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:27Joe Rogan?

  He hasn't, but he's just so complete, and his fight IQ is off the charts. Off the charts.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  Very well-rounded.

• 36:33Joe Rogan?

  Very.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Very well-rounded.

• 36:35Joe Rogan?

  And wild. You know, opens up his world title fight with Shogun with a flying knee.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, crazy.

• 36:40Joe Rogan?

  Wild, you know, just, just believes in himself, goes for it.

• 36:43Speaker 00

  Confidence, yeah.

• 36:44Joe Rogan?

  Yes, goes for it. I thought that was a complicated matchup for him.

• 36:48Speaker 00

  It is, it is.

• 36:49Joe Rogan?

  Cause that guy's not easy to get to the ground and uh Aspinall and he's fast as fuck. And he's big.

• 36:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:56Joe Rogan?

  He's a legit 250 pounds, natural, not, you know, no, he doesn't need anything. There's no way he can make 205 ever. He's fucking big.

• 37:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I I got to train with him and I went down there and I was like, this guy, he's a, he's a tank.

• 37:11Joe Rogan?

  It's a tank. So that's a problem.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:14Joe Rogan?

  That's a problem when you're not really a heavyweight. As great as John is, and I think John beats most heavyweights that have ever existed. I, that's a, that guy's a, Francis is another problem. That's another problem. Cause you're dealing with a real 265 pound, solid, natural, grew up in the sand mines. Literally.

• 37:36Speaker 00

  His story is crazy.

• 37:38Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  His story is.

• 37:40Joe Rogan?

  Bro, he told it on the podcast. He told the whole story of him going to Morocco and getting to Europe.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:46Joe Rogan?

  That's a movie, man.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, easily.

• 37:48Joe Rogan?

  Crazy movie.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  I'm surprised nobody has jumped on that.

• 37:51Joe Rogan?

  I'm surprised too. Someone needs to. It's nuts.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, we'll do it, we'll do it, we'll do it.

• 37:56Joe Rogan?

  But when him, he was a child working, digging sand in Cameroon.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Crazy.

• 38:00Joe Rogan?

  You know, incredible. And then you, you have incredible genetics.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:04Joe Rogan?

  And then you have just this fierce mindset from all the shit that guy's been through.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:09Joe Rogan?

  That, that was, that was another one. So there was two fights that I was really interested in with, with John at heavyweight. Once he won the titles, like, God, bring back Francis, please.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  I just don't see that happening.

• 38:20Joe Rogan?

  Sort out your difference. I wish I was running shit. I feel like I could have, me and him being along, great.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:26Joe Rogan?

  I just feel like, I don't know, I think sometimes it's uh, the executives and the fighters and Dana generally gets along with people.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:34Joe Rogan?

  You know, like most fighters he gets along with, but him and Francis. It didn't work.

• 38:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:40Joe Rogan?

  I love the guy.

• 38:41Speaker 00

  I've never got, had the privilege of meeting him, but he's just seems very sweet, like a big friendly giant.

• 38:46Joe Rogan?

  He's a great guy.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Outside of the cage.

• 38:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 38:49Speaker 00

  Big friendly giant.

• 38:50Joe Rogan?

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• 39:32Joe Rogan?

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• 40:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:03Joe Rogan?

  From one of my, I'm always saying from my experiences with him.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:06Joe Rogan?

  But as a fighter, he's fucking, make it happen. Keep him around. You gotta jam.

• 40:11Speaker 00

  That's more important.

• 40:13Joe Rogan?

  It's extraordinary, extraordinary gem.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:16Joe Rogan?

  And you want to talk about sellability, you want to talk about marketability. What's more marketable than a giant man who destroys everyone?

• 40:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:23Joe Rogan?

  He's the guy.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So true.

• 40:25Joe Rogan?

  Drove me nuts.

• 40:26Speaker 00

  I know.

• 40:27Joe Rogan?

  Drove me nuts.

• 40:28Speaker 00

  I think everybody. And I think that's added to people's frustrations with the Tom Aspinall fight not happening then after as well.

• 40:36Joe Rogan?

  Well, that was not on the UFC's side or on Tom's side. That was all John, look, John's a wizard. He knows how to play all games. And one of the games he plays, I'm retiring. No, I'm back. Oh, now I'm hunting after you. Like, what? It doesn't matter for him. He's gonna get the same amount of money. He's still John Jones. Like, it's all, it's all mind-fuckering. Keep you guessing. And meanwhile, John's deadlifting every day. You know what I mean? And partying. He's just so wild. But it's like, that, that fight would have been amazing to see, but to me.

• 41:06Speaker 00

  So that means it probably can still happen, no?

• 41:08Joe Rogan?

  I hope so. I genuinely hope so. You know, they were talking about doing it at the White House?

• 41:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, and then they said.

• 41:13Joe Rogan?

  Dana's like, I can't trust John to show up and be fun.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  Which is fair, which is fair.

• 41:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so you gotta say, there's been a few times where things went awry.

• 41:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough.

• 41:23Joe Rogan?

  However.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  It would be, it would be great.

• 41:24Joe Rogan?

  Do it on a card where you have 12 other fights. That's what I say. Who gives a fuck? Let's see if it happens. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 41:31Joe Rogan?

  That's what I would be, like, let's go crazy. Let's fucking go all in.

• 41:35Speaker 00

  I guess what would happen is that fight overshadows many fights.

• 41:39Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  So if it doesn't happen, even though the fights are amazing still, people are like, ah.

• 41:45Joe Rogan?

  It, it does, but so what?

• 41:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:47Joe Rogan?

  I mean, you know, you get, I don't know who you would do. Iliot Taboria versus Justin Gagey or something like that. Something crazy like that.

• 41:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:54Joe Rogan?

  You'd have a few other fights. It depends on what happens this weekend with Pereira and Alkali. It depends on what happens with Murab and Corey Sanhagen. Those are two very complicated fights.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  Beast.

• 42:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, very good fights.

• 42:05Speaker 00

  Man.

• 42:05Joe Rogan?

  Beast!

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Such a beast.

• 42:08Joe Rogan?

  Dude, he was talking to, I forgot who he was talking to. He did an interview, oh, he was on Mighty Mouse's podcast. No sauna, no cold plunge, no stretching.

• 42:18Speaker 00

  Doesn't do any of that.

• 42:18Joe Rogan?

  Doesn't do any of that. Just no warm up.

• 42:21Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:21Joe Rogan?

  Shows up, I just show up, start to train. Just shows up, shows up and fucking hits the gas. He stays up to 1, 2 o'clock in the morning.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  Just.

• 42:32Joe Rogan?

  Just, like, his whole routine is totally contrary to everything that you've heard before. And this is how he weight cuts. I stop eating. He just stops eating. He stops eating on Tuesday.

• 42:47Joe Rogan?

  He just stops eating, stops drinking water, keeps working out. The man's mind is a giant factor that I think a lot of people are looking at his cardio, which is a insane weapon.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  Of course, yeah, yeah.

• 42:58Joe Rogan?

  But the man's mind, the toughness, the mental toughness, that is Fort Knox.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:03Joe Rogan?

  You ain't getting in there. You ain't getting in there. Remember that time, who was it? He was mounted. I forget who got him, but he got him in a mounted guillotine and he didn't, I think it might have been Ricky Simone, or it was, I don't know, somebody else had him and he got out and then he won the fight. But he was, he was being choked unconscious for like two minutes.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, and he's like, yeah.

• 43:23Joe Rogan?

  And he's like kicking his legs and moving around. He's like, there's no quitting that guy. Fucking zero quit.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  You have to put him out.

• 43:29Joe Rogan?

  Zero quit. In the Marlon Marais fight, he was basically out on his feet the first round.

• 43:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:34Joe Rogan?

  And just came back and stopped him. He's a monster.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  He's a beast. He's a beast.

• 43:38Joe Rogan?

  And he keeps getting better.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:39Joe Rogan?

  I mean, when it got, you know, you feel like, oh, a guy like that is so good. Look how good he is. He's better than everybody. No, no, no, no, no. He's still getting better.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:47Joe Rogan?

  Like, he's not done. He's a project. He's like, what can the human mind force the human body to do?

• 43:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, to do. And how young is he now?

• 43:55Joe Rogan?

  He's like 34, I believe. So which is in that lightweight class. It's a little bit more of a problem in the heavier weight classes, but I don't see any slant.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  Like you said, his mind is...

• 44:04Joe Rogan?

  His mind is a fucking steel trap.

• 44:06Speaker 00

  But it's funny you say that, because I don't, I don't really have structure either. So like I said, the weight cut I do, but that's because I came in with no understanding of weight cut. And London Sheik was like, you do this.

• 44:18Joe Rogan?

  You look so big for one to one. How the fuck did you do that? How much are you cutting when you went to 170?

• 44:24Speaker 00

  So even like now, I'm massive now.

• 44:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you look like, let me guess, 220? What do you weigh right now?

• 44:30Speaker 00

  About, yeah, about 215.

• 44:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was going to do it in KG, so, yeah.

• 44:36Joe Rogan?

  Right, okay.

• 44:37Speaker 00

  But, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:39Joe Rogan?

  We never adopted it. So stupid. It's a way better system.

• 44:43Speaker 00

  But, yeah, it's, but I've never struggled to get down though. Because again, I was just told, I guess it's ignorance as well, but I was just told to do these things. And it's like, okay, you do it.

• 44:53Joe Rogan?

  What is it, like, when you start, like, say, you get a call from the UFC?

• 44:57Speaker 00

  Six to seven weeks out.

• 44:58Joe Rogan?

  Okay. Well, so you're not going to accept any two-week fights?

• 45:01Speaker 00

  No.

• 45:02Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 45:02Speaker 00

  Well, it depends on the fight. And it depends where I, I'm always training.

• 45:05Joe Rogan?

  But middleweight, maybe you would.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  Middleweight, yeah. Middleweight, yeah.

• 45:08Joe Rogan?

  You have taken some short notice fights.

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, for, for middleweight, which was the first one I, it was the first one or the second one I did. Um, the last fight.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  Maybe, but I I would take short notice fights depending on where I am.

• 45:21Joe Rogan?

  In training.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  In in training. But even I just like to have a rough idea, right? Even right now, it's like trying to get and I'm like, I'm bugging people. Cause I've I'm I've come from a circuit where we fight weekends.

• 45:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Every weekend we're somewhere.

• 45:34Joe Rogan?

  It keeps you sharp.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then this that's this is probably the most frustrating thing for me, obviously. Started in the Bellator and you're training all the time and then you have a fight and then you're training on the side. And a lot of my fights, I don't get take too much damage. So I'm like, I'm ready now, like.

• 45:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 45:52Speaker 00

  Give me a week off and I can come back and then it's months and months. I'm like, who am I fighting? Do this and.

• 45:58Joe Rogan?

  The problem is you're a hard sell.

• 46:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:01Joe Rogan?

  You know, when they when people get a call.

• 46:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:05Joe Rogan?

  Flat footed dude, like shit, I'm gonna have to learn how to dance in six weeks. Fuck.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  And that's the thing, so I'm here and I I assumed wrongly that when I get to the UFC, that is gonna disperse. Everyone's gonna be gunning for me. Like, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna show everybody that this guy is is is is a can. Like he he only fought people that weren't his level. Eh, just it's it's still the same. I think and obviously the more I fight, the less people are putting their hands up. I think even Whitaker said, which I respect to be fair, he came out, I don't even know where. Somebody sent me something, but he had said like, yeah, would it be interesting to make another fight?

• 46:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. At this point in his career, that's just a setback waiting to happen. Yeah, it's not and his style is very similar to your style.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Exactly, yeah, I I'm a massive fan of his as well, like I love his. And obviously he can tie in the the wrestling way better and just, yeah, I I love his style.

• 46:57Joe Rogan?

  I do too. And and you've got to realize like that guy, he's take, he's been in it for a long time. He had two fucking wars with Yoel Romero.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:08Joe Rogan?

  When Yoel Romero was made out of metal.

• 47:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that guy's son, he's still fighting.

• 47:12Joe Rogan?

  Still.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:13Joe Rogan?

  Forty eight years old, fucking people up, looking like he's thirty.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  I'd swap buddies in a second.

• 47:19Joe Rogan?

  Who wouldn't? Bro, when he was in here, he was, he came in the studio, it was the most amazing thing, because Joey Diaz translated for him.

• 47:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:26Joe Rogan?

  So it was him and Joey Diaz going back and forth and, you know, Joey's Cuban as well, of course. And so when when he was here, he had to be two hundred and thirty pounds. He his neck starts at the top of his ears. And one of the things that he said, man, he was talking about the Cuban system, he goes, "You have to be on my gene."

• 47:46Joe Rogan?

  Because he was talking about the system of like you get more food if you're at a higher caliber of athlete.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  So the Just to get more food, he's like

• 47:54Joe Rogan?

  The athletes, yeah, man. The athletes that are the lower caliber, they eat twice a day.

• 47:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:59Joe Rogan?

  In his caliber, he's eating three times a day. He's like, so every day, every day they're coming for you. You have to be on my chin. And I was like, oh my god. And you have to look in his eyes, man.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Bro, we are soft in the west, bro.

• 48:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh, we're so soft in the west. We're so soft in the west.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  What the hell is this?

• 48:20Joe Rogan?

  I'm not a fan of communism. I don't believe in it. But damn, it creates a fucking beast. Alexander Karelin, I mean, I don't know if you get, there's two things that you don't get that with. There's like substances.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:32Joe Rogan?

  With for sure taking place. And then there's also, there's a regiment that they have, both the Cuban system

• 48:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:38Joe Rogan?

  And the Russian system.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:39Joe Rogan?

  Where they had figured out the balance between unbelievable hard work, but technical ability and recovery.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:47Joe Rogan?

  They didn't go meathead style.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:49Joe Rogan?

  In America, we went meathead style and we burnt a lot of dudes out, but the dudes who survived were just the killers of the killers. But they probably could have made more killers like the Russians did if they did it more technically.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  Bro, it's the same. So again, shoes, they've been, okay, they're the first MMA gym in the UK. I think like ninety-five, ninety-seven, ninety-five.

• 49:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I got a t-shirt, I got a London Shoe Fighters t-shirt from two thousand and three.

• 49:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, crazy.

• 49:14Joe Rogan?

  I couldn't find it. I was going looking for it today.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  Crazy. So like I said, they've been around. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell him, I'm gonna tell him. They've been around a long time and obviously they've fought with everybody. I think they fought at every, every major competition that's ever been out. They've done boxing with the likes of like David Haye, Derek Chitauri now, um, even Dylan White did a kickboxing fight with them. Uh, you know, myself, Lee Murray, uh, John Hathaway, um, even like Carlos Romola was the first Czech guy before Yuri to be in the UFC. That was them guys. They've done a lot, but they're the meathead style.

• 49:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  They are like Yeah, everybody will.

• 49:55Joe Rogan?

  Anything that produced Lee Murray.

• 49:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:57Joe Rogan?

  You know, you got that guy in your gym.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  It's a problem.

• 50:00Joe Rogan?

  Just the echoes of that guy's style will permeate through that gym for decades.

• 50:05Speaker 00

  That guy is just an angry man.

• 50:08Joe Rogan?

  He was an angry man.

• 50:09Speaker 00

  But at the same time, you needed somebody like, cause my coaches are beasts, like you needed that kind of militant force to be able to manage that.

• 50:19Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  And that's what my coaches, they are, they're like, yeah, they're, people used to come to our gym and we're just like, yeah, who's ready? And if you don't do it, I'll do it myself. That's one thing I always respected about them, even with the machines, that the fitness machines that we had to do. The scores are crazy. Like I'm, I see people in other gyms posting their scores and I'm like, is that it? And they're celebrating it. And I'm like, we're forced to do this. The hell is that? But he'd push you, but he'd also do it himself. Like he'd jump on the machine, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's the clamor.

• 50:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:51Speaker 00

  Smoke it. Fight like five fights, back to back. And then running and this and that, like, and we're doing, we have to do all of it because he's doing it.

• 50:57Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  And he's not doing it, he hasn't got a fight.

• 50:59Joe Rogan?

  That's the way you lead.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, and he, he led that way.

• 51:01Joe Rogan?

  Especially with killers.

• 51:02Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 51:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's the problem.

• 51:04Speaker 00

  They demand respect.

• 51:05Joe Rogan?

  Right. And they have to know that you're real.

• 51:07Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 51:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, otherwise you're just some pontificator on the sidelines with a fucking clipboard. Fuck off, bitch.

• 51:14Speaker 00

  Which is more nowadays, like I'm seeing a lot of like, uh, and to be fair, I'm a fan of a lot of these guys, like the fighting nerds. And again, I'm hearing that they had, I forget, like a data analyst or something that's in. And he does like this, you know, he studies this. And I think that's cool. Like I feel like we, we should have like add elements of these things as well. But obviously I've just grown up by this iron, sharp's iron.

• 51:37Joe Rogan?

  It does. It's undeniable. Iron sharpens iron.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:41Joe Rogan?

  You know, there's outliers, there's a guy who will come out of a gym with nobody and he's a monster. There's just a few of those guys that exist in the world. But for the most part, like if you look at a gym like American Top Team, for example, look at how many animals have come out of that gym.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  So many.

• 51:54Joe Rogan?

  Pantoja, who I think does not get the credit he deserves. I think Pantoja is one of the greatest ever.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:01Joe Rogan?

  Fucking guy's a monster. When that, that Japanese cat came over from Ryzen, he just like. Like ragdolled him, like he had no business. And then the, the Kai Kai France rematch, like you see the difference between when they first fought and now the difference between like a dominant, all time world champion.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:19Joe Rogan?

  Phew, people like when he's on a card, like people don't freak out. I'm like, god damn it, just because he's 125 pounds. This episode is brought to you by the mosquito bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat where the stakes were life and death. Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights and starring Nicholas Galitzin, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson and Tom Francis.

• 53:04Joe Rogan?

  The mosquito bowl now playing in theaters.

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• 53:38Joe Rogan?

  Get that shit out of your head. You're watching one of the greatest ever.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  But that's the thing, that's it's the marketability of people. This is what I knew I had to get right as well.

• 53:47Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 53:48Speaker 00

  And a lot of, I, I say that to my teammates as well. I'm like, do you know how you're going to market yourself? And they're like, no, no, just, you know, if I beat people up, it's like, it doesn't always just, unfortunately it should, but it doesn't, that's not what's gonna get you. If I have to, as a promotion owner and the person managing everything, I'm either gonna pick you that's beating everybody, but nobody cares about, or this guy that's, you know, it's pretty decent, but everyone's making noise about, gonna pick that guy. So you need to be able to market yourself. And I, I knew that from the jump, and this is before really social media was massive, massive is a, is a thing, but. I said to myself, okay, I need to look in, how am I gonna market myself? Cause we don't have that much time, like on the mic.

• 54:33Speaker 00

  Uh, the interviews at the time, I don't feel like people got the recognition. People just cared about the fight. They just wanted to watch the fight. Didn't care what you said beforehand. Unless you're arguing or shouting, you know, there's, there's beef. Unless you grab that mic and go crazy. Yeah, yeah. You gotta go crazy. Chael Sonnen was the first guy. Oh, he's the best. Yeah, he was. He figured it out before anybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anderson Silva, you absolutely suck. He's the best fighter. But he's still good. This is why he's on the mic now. Yes, but it was perfect. It was perfect. But there was balance with that. There was, for me, there was the perfect balance. Like it, it wasn't too far. It was, it was, it was exactly what you wanted. Right. Exactly what you need to, to market a fight and to promote himself. Yes, yes, I agree with you.

• 55:16Speaker 00

  But, well, again, it's weird though, because I think authenticity is important when you do that as well though. And Conor McGregor kinda is the next person for me that's kinda delivered that. Oh, 100%. He took it to a whole nother level. A whole nother level. Every time this guy's on the mic, he'll say one line and I'm like, t-shirts, easy. How about when Jeremy Stephens is yelling at him and he goes, who the fuck is that guy?

• 55:42Speaker 00

  It's, you can't beat this guy. I don't, I'm just saying, why did you even open your mouth, bro? It's so funny, man. It's so funny. But you, and you need to be able to do that. Like I, before I even had my first fight, I would, I spent hours. I was a big WWE fan and I felt like The Rock, you know, Dwayne Johnson for, out of all of them, was the best at marketing himself. He had the, the, the crowd in the palm of his hands. Every word that he said, and it was simple sayings. And I was like, yeah, I studied this, studied this. I was like, okay. Mmm. Okay, what, what, and even like his stances, he'd come up, like jump on the ropes and put his hand up and just stand there. Look around. You know what I mean? Like he just, he just demanded eyes.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  So again, I just came to, okay, what, what could I do? What could I, so I was like, okay. You know, Venom, you know, the snake, I was related to a snake. Okay, I was like. Okay, yeah, let me, let me do this. Okay, okay, okay, that's check. I've got, I've got, I've got starts that I can do. Okay, I need a saying. Okay, like, what can I say? Because again, I used to listen to people on after fights and I didn't hear anything they said. They're like, yeah, I'm gonna, yeah, I beat that guy. And I'm like, yeah, thank you for my sponsors.

• 56:58Speaker 00

  Who? Who were your sponsors? Didn't hear anything. So I'm like, it has to be like concise, I have to say specific words and just, I write this stuff down. But again, I speak to my team. It's like, bro, what are you guys doing? You need to do this kind of stuff and understand that this is a part of your game. You, you've got five seconds after the fight on the mic. If that, what are you, what are you going to say? What message is gonna land? What is gonna make you memorable? And I do things on my walk-ins as well. I need people to remember. There's, they're watching sixteen fights on the night. Why do they remember me? Yes, my, my style is exciting. That's cool. There, there's this weird guy, he does some weird stuff with his arms and that. He's quite cool. But they're not gonna remember my name. They need other things to keep them coming back.

• 57:40Speaker 00

  God, there's this guy in the Wayans, he stood above this guy, he put his snake hand up and then, oh, that's the same guy that did the dance, because now you're getting it from different places. That's the guy that threw the poker ball. Oh, uh, what's his name? What's his name? The more times you keep hitting them with different things, the more times they're, they're more likely kind of really buy into you. And I think this is why I was able to create a big enough brand before even touching the UFC. Just because I paid attention to that.

• 58:07Joe Rogan?

  You were the one of the first guys to make a name for yourself in Bellator. Because Bellator, it was hard to break out.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:14Joe Rogan?

  There were some wild fights in Bellator that never got recognized.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  At all, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:18Joe Rogan?

  How about the Eddie Alvarez, Michael Chandler fights? Fucking crazy fights! And I feel like they, those guys left a lot of who they are there.

• 58:27Speaker 00

  In there, yeah, unfortunately, yeah, yeah.

• 58:29Joe Rogan?

  We got them kind of after.

• 58:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:31Joe Rogan?

  And Chandler's still remarkably durable. But that's just a discipline thing and a hard work thing.

• 58:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he's just accustomed to, like you said, he's been, he's trained a certain way his whole life. He's always gonna have that kind of athleticism.

• 58:42Joe Rogan?

  But he's, you know, thirty-eight now. I mean, it's like, you can only, I wished he had not been in Bellator. Look, I, I'm all for competition. I think competition's important. I don't think there should be a monopoly in the MMA business. I think it's bad for the athletes.

• 58:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely.

• 58:57Joe Rogan?

  I love the fact that PFL overpays people. Keep doing it. Give them a million dollars, everybody. Get a million dollars. Everybody gets a car. You get a car? I wish there was more organizations.

• 59:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:07Joe Rogan?

  I hope one FC succeeds.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does help. It helped me as well, even in my negotiation.

• 59:14Joe Rogan?

  Fucking everything.

• 59:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:15Joe Rogan?

  However.

• 59:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:16Joe Rogan?

  There's a caliber of athlete.

• 59:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:18Joe Rogan?

  That I feel like should only be in the UFC.

• 59:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:21Joe Rogan?

  And you're one of those guys.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  Thank you. Appreciate that.

• 59:23Joe Rogan?

  There's a caliber of athlete where like, I wanna see how good they really are.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  Hmm, hmm.

• 59:29Joe Rogan?

  You know, like, some guy, like Patchy Mitch.

• 59:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:33Joe Rogan?

  Patchy Mix is a beast.

• 59:34Speaker 00

  Beast.

• 59:34Joe Rogan?

  He's a bad motherfucker, but so's Mario Bautista.

• 59:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:37Joe Rogan?

  Mario Bautista had the perfect game plan to fuck up his party, but that dude, when he was in Bellator, was of that caliber. I was like, I wanna see him over here, man.

• 59:47Speaker 00

  I, I, I personally, and obviously because I've experienced it, for me, the first time I got nervous in an MMA fight was my first fight.

• 59:57Joe Rogan?

  In the UFC?

• 59:58Speaker 00

  No, my first fight.

• 59:58Joe Rogan?

  First fight ever?

• 59:59Speaker 00

  Ever. And then after that, I was like, oh yeah, this is the same as when I was fighting in the kickboxing. I'm cool. I didn't have any, I didn't get the nerves again. The first time again since then was the first, no, no, sorry, weird enough, the second fight in the UFC against Ian Gary. Now, the first fight, I don't know why, I just, I don't, I don't know what it was, but I was quite relaxed. And then the second fight, I was like, oh, it's something, a reality hit me of like, oh, you're in the UFC. The people are gonna demand a certain thing from you, and you got a reputation of before of the knockouts, of the celebrations, of the workings, of the this, of the that. And then I just let that put a weight on me.

• 1:00:38Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:00:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:40Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy that it was the second fight.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  I, I, I can't even explain as to why it was the second fight and not the first one. And then even the third fight, I still had that kind of, oh man, I'm not performing the way I want, and I felt like I'm eager to impress.

• 1:01:00Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  And I never felt like it in Bellator, but at the UFC, I'm like, I'm trying my best.

• 1:01:05Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 1:01:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's weird.

• 1:01:07Joe Rogan?

  It's the same thing.

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  It's the same thing.

• 1:01:08Joe Rogan?

  Same thing. Cage, cameras, people.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  Same thing.

• 1:01:10Joe Rogan?

  Same thing.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  But I just, the magnitude of it, I don't know. I, I, I'm, I'm guessing.

• 1:01:16Joe Rogan?

  It's what we all grew up with.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  It's what everyone grows up with. It's like, this is where, like I said, there was always question marks around my name. Even, I was, jump, jump knees and this and that. Always question marks around my name still, but then now I'm here, it's like, oh, actually, I can, these guys can. Respect me now, actually respect me now because I'm here.

• 1:01:36Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  And then I was just like trying too hard, trying too hard, trying too hard. The last fight was the first time I was like.

• 1:01:44Joe Rogan?

  You're back.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  I'm back. And this is why I was like, just keep getting me back in the cage because I swear to you this, that I got, I'm back to where I used to be and how I used to feel.

• 1:01:52Joe Rogan?

  It's just an issue of getting guys that are willing to fight you that are of a certain caliber.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:01:57Joe Rogan?

  Because, you know, obviously, right now, you're pretty big. So for you to get down to one seventy again would be a real problem. Are you committed to one eighty-five or are you?

• 1:02:05Speaker 00

  No, no, no.

• 1:02:05Joe Rogan?

  You open either one of them?

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  I want one seventy. I can see a clear pathway, even after my last fight, I messaged Hunter. And I literally like, look, oh, let me fight, um, it was Morales, yeah? And I was like, look, another undefeated guy, perfect fight, like he's a beast, like, I'm, I'm, I'm ready, let me take him. Then, and I said, what I could do after that is in like, uh, December, I think I said, or, or, no, March next year. I was like, yeah, give me that for November, like March next year. Usually come back to the UK, let me fight the winner of, um, Leon Edwards and Pratas. I was like, another great fight there.

• 1:02:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  And then you've got July card, obviously, everyone's gonna put their hand up to be on that, but I said, if you guys want me to be on that, again, I would fight for whoever you want and in that top range, pick, I don't care who it is, pick, pick somebody, I'll fight them and then I want a title shot. Or you give me the title there, like.

• 1:03:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  But I'm like, I can see a clear path to where, what I want. And it's just, everything seems slow, which I, I did, like I said, I didn't expect, uh, coming to the UFC.

• 1:03:14Joe Rogan?

  I think there's just too many athletes.

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  There is a lot.

• 1:03:18Joe Rogan?

  I think they, they have on contract more than five hundred.

• 1:03:24Speaker 00

  Damn.

• 1:03:25Joe Rogan?

  How many athletes does the UFC have under contract?

• 1:03:29Joe Rogan?

  Throw that into.

• 1:03:30Speaker 00

  But then also they're they're, I think, and you know, obviously I'm managed by Paradigm um with Audi. And he said he feels like uh the Paramount deal is they having to integrate that now as well. And I'm like, I didn't think about that, but every time Bellator, because Bellator kept getting new partnerships, it did slow things down a little bit.

• 1:03:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, that would make sense. Yeah, that doesn't start until January.

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  But obviously they're sorting out contracts and things from now. And then they have to have to try and align the shows and I'm guessing, obviously I don't know, but I'm just saying it just feels even slower than before. And I'm like, I was.

• 1:04:08Joe Rogan?

  That sucks.

• 1:04:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, I just wanna be back out there. I don't care. Just, and this is why I'm happy to take.

• 1:04:14Joe Rogan?

  Six hundred and seventy-four.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:04:17Joe Rogan?

  Six hundred and seventy-four fighters under contract and they don't have fights every week. They have fights almost every week, but not every week. That, I mean, just think about that. So you have fifty-two weeks, you have all these fighters, fighters wanna fight multiple times a year.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  I appreciate that, but I'm MVP, man. Let's go.

• 1:04:33Joe Rogan?

  I am with you. I'm with you. I always say that I wish I was a matchmaker, but I don't. Cause it's a hardest job.

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm sure.

• 1:04:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, I used to talk to Joe Silva back in the day when he did it. He fucking hated it, dealing with everybody and managers and and people flake out and they fail drug tests. I'm like, god damn it. And these guys, you know, what what they're doing right now is very difficult, because what what Mick Maynard and Sean Shelby are dealing with is the volume is so much greater.

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:02Joe Rogan?

  There's so, and there's so many more really good guys, like in almost every division, like guys are coming in from the contender series. I'm like, that guy looks like a world championship caliber fighter.

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  Talented.

• 1:05:13Joe Rogan?

  Talent's off the charts right now, and it's because they get to watch.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:17Joe Rogan?

  You know, these are the kids that are growing up watching Anderson Silva. They're growing up watching John Jones first fight. They're growing up watching the early Chuck Liddell fights. It's totally different.

• 1:05:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:28Joe Rogan?

  They they like when they're play fighting with their friends, they're in stances that look right, you know? They know what they're doing.

• 1:05:35Speaker 00

  And they know the names of every submission and this, it's so true.

• 1:05:37Joe Rogan?

  They're calf kicking each other in the fucking schoolyard. It's a totally different world.

• 1:05:42Speaker 00

  Very true.

• 1:05:42Joe Rogan?

  And those kids are gonna grow up and that's gonna be integrating into their neural muscular system.

• 1:05:47Speaker 00

  Yep, yep.

• 1:05:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and they're gonna learn, there's guys coming along that are like, elite black belt level jiu jitsu.

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:53Joe Rogan?

  Elite stand up.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:55Joe Rogan?

  Elite wrestling.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:57Joe Rogan?

  Takedown defense, cardio off the charts.

• 1:05:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:59Joe Rogan?

  And they're 22.

• 1:06:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:00Joe Rogan?

  And you're like, this is nuts.

• 1:06:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:02Joe Rogan?

  Now it's just about whether you can compete.

• 1:06:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:04Joe Rogan?

  Whether you can pull it off and keep your head together on fighting this.

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is, again, I think is something that people don't speak about enough.

• 1:06:12Joe Rogan?

  Listen, it's, Aaron Pico is as talented as they come, right? That dude is a fucking vicious boxer. Incredible wrestling, gold chip prospect from the very, but Laron Murphy is another guy was not, I was saying before that, this is the guy that's not getting the credit he deserves.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, 100%.

• 1:06:30Joe Rogan?

  Cause you got all these loud killers at 145, but you got this one dude that does everything perfect.

• 1:06:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, and he's beating everybody.

• 1:06:37Joe Rogan?

  He's beating everything.

• 1:06:39Speaker 00

  Etching away.

• 1:06:39Joe Rogan?

  And he doesn't take damage.

• 1:06:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:41Joe Rogan?

  And he's clever and he's slick and he does things, and every technique is perfect.

• 1:06:46Speaker 00

  Absolute beast.

• 1:06:47Joe Rogan?

  He doesn't, and there's no fat on anything, there's no wild winging punches, everything's tight and tell, that spinning elbow was a work of art. He just knew Aaron Pico's a train.

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  He's coming, bang! That was a crazy, that was a.

• 1:07:01Joe Rogan?

  But that's the difference between someone who can compete at the highest level.

• 1:07:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, and he's accustomed to it.

• 1:07:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:07:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:06Joe Rogan?

  It's the knowing when to hit the gas and when not to. Pico's just all gas, no brakes.

• 1:07:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, go ahead, what is it, like you said, it's like similar to Michael Chana again.

• 1:07:13Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  Just like in that rage mode all the time.

• 1:07:16Joe Rogan?

  All gas, no brakes.

• 1:07:17Speaker 00

  You need to take your time.

• 1:07:19Joe Rogan?

  But that's a wrestler thing too, they always wanna break people. Cause in wrestling, you can do that.

• 1:07:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:24Joe Rogan?

  You can have that mentality where you're constantly hitting the gas, cause you're not gonna get knocked out with a flying knee.

• 1:07:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, true, true, true, changes.

• 1:07:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because you get that, that's how you compete. You get this mindset of, I'm gonna fucking dominate, I know what I did in training for this, my gas tank's off the charts, my aggression's off the charts, I'm a killer, I'm gonna dominate, I'm moving forward, I'm moving forward.

• 1:07:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:44Joe Rogan?

  The problem was with a guy like Laron, it's like, you think he's backing up.

• 1:07:46Speaker 00

  Bam, he's coming forward.

• 1:07:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh!

• 1:07:48Speaker 00

  That was, that was amazing.

• 1:07:50Joe Rogan?

  The timing!

• 1:07:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:51Joe Rogan?

  The timing, it was just like. Oh.

• 1:07:53Speaker 00

  But Pico even stepped right into the elbow.

• 1:07:56Joe Rogan?

  It was ruthless.

• 1:07:58Speaker 00

  It made it ten times worse.

• 1:08:00Joe Rogan?

  Ruthless.

• 1:08:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, ah, that's my thing. The car crash effect, when you create those collision moments.

• 1:08:05Joe Rogan?

  So for a guy like Laron, who's not a big marketing guy, not a big like, doesn't say wild shit on the microphone, he's just steady professional, does his job. He needs to do that, right? He needs like this spectacular thing where all of a sudden everybody goes,

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:19Joe Rogan?

  He needs to fight Alexander Volkanovski. And that looks like that's what's gonna happen now because of that one performance.

• 1:08:25Speaker 00

  Which is, I'm so happy for him.

• 1:08:26Joe Rogan?

  Me too.

• 1:08:27Speaker 00

  He's a cool guy, man. I'm so happy for him. But this is why I tell people, if he had just a little bit, a little bit of chat, a little bit of show your personality, or something, just give me something else.

• 1:08:37Joe Rogan?

  You have that though.

• 1:08:38Speaker 00

  No, but you know what it is? I always say, like, everyone, like, um, Demetrius Johnson, for me, is one of the greatest.

• 1:08:46Joe Rogan?

  Of all time.

• 1:08:47Speaker 00

  All time.

• 1:08:47Joe Rogan?

  Of all time. Another underappreciated guy because he's too small.

• 1:08:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. But I feel like, underappreciated because you can't market him in the exact same ways you'd market like a Conor McGregor or somebody else like that.

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  But he's a gamer. I'm like, shed a light on, there's a massive,

• 1:09:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:06Speaker 00

  massive community of gaming. That industry is billion dollars deep. Market this guy, because he's on, he goes back home and he's just like,

• 1:09:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's one of them.

• 1:09:15Speaker 00

  He's one of those guys. So, but again, we didn't see, I don't feel like we saw any of that until afterwards, when he was kind of like doing his own thing. And he's now obviously doing a lot of his YouTube time. I'm happy, I'm so happy that he's, you know, is getting recognition and stuff.

• 1:09:27Joe Rogan?

  It was kind of when he went to one, that he started doing more of the gaming stuff online.

• 1:09:31Speaker 00

  But he, no, he had been doing it though.

• 1:09:32Joe Rogan?

  He had been doing it in the UFC as well?

• 1:09:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. But again, it's just more, I guess.

• 1:09:36Joe Rogan?

  They didn't capitalize.

• 1:09:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what I mean. I think so. Certain people, you have to, like, what is your thing? Not everybody is just the fighting. They have things, like, things to kind of release, like wind down and, you know what I mean?

• 1:09:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:49Speaker 00

  Find that out. He's killing everybody anyway. So how else can we market? Instead of being like, ah, can't market him the same, he doesn't talk, he doesn't do, say anything. There must be something there. There has to be something else there we could. Look into.

• 1:10:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's interesting because some guys, their personality is no personality. Like Pereira.

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:07Joe Rogan?

  His personality is stone face.

• 1:10:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:09Joe Rogan?

  Just stone face destroyer, death machine. Here he comes, Amazon warrior. Like literal, actual Amazon warrior.

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:17Joe Rogan?

  Like not, not a faker, his fucking family comes from a tribe in Amazon.

• 1:10:22Speaker 00

  But then that's what he markets though.

• 1:10:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I guess that's what they marketed, but.

• 1:10:25Speaker 00

  No, but he markets that as well. He walks out, that walk out.

• 1:10:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, that's true.

• 1:10:30Speaker 00

  Bro, I do it myself. When he's walking out, I'm just waiting for him like.

• 1:10:35Joe Rogan?

  That's true.

• 1:10:36Speaker 00

  And that's what I mean though, I mean like that's you, he, you, you're telling, you're selling your story with just something so simple.

• 1:10:41Joe Rogan?

  Very good point that I didn't even think of.

• 1:10:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:43Joe Rogan?

  That his walkout.

• 1:10:44Speaker 00

  His walkout.

• 1:10:45Joe Rogan?

  His walkout is maybe the best in the sport.

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:48Speaker 00

  And that's what I'm trying to say.

• 1:10:49Joe Rogan?

  Music.

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:50Joe Rogan?

  Jungle music behind him.

• 1:10:52Speaker 00

  You just, you just, the walk.

• 1:10:53Joe Rogan?

  Just this Amazon warrior.

• 1:10:55Speaker 00

  Ah. It's simple. Everyone can relate to it.

• 1:10:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:00Speaker 00

  You, it's consistent, so I'm always gonna, oh, that's the guy.

• 1:11:03Joe Rogan?

  And you see kids in the audience throw the one, two.

• 1:11:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, they do it.

• 1:11:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:07Speaker 00

  And like I said, I'm a, cause I'm a big wrestling fan, I see, it's those moments that everybody will remember and everybody will do.

• 1:11:13Joe Rogan?

  Right, like when Style Bender came into The Undertaker.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  Oh, beast. But that's what I'm trying to say, it's those kind of things that people just don't.

• 1:11:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:23Speaker 00

  And I'm talking the fighters themselves, obviously I feel the UFC can do their bit as well, but technically you're already on the platform that's gonna show you to everybody, so then it's your job to figure it out as well.

• 1:11:32Joe Rogan?

  Another aspect of the game.

• 1:11:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:34Joe Rogan?

  Like strength and conditioning, like all these different things.

• 1:11:36Speaker 00

  Exactly, just think about it.

• 1:11:37Joe Rogan?

  You're, you're professional, figure out how to market yourself, yeah.

• 1:11:40Speaker 00

  You are the product.

• 1:11:41Joe Rogan?

  The problem is though, it does lead to like cringe moments.

• 1:11:45Joe Rogan?

  So not everybody has your personality and some guys try and it's like, yikes. Shit.

• 1:11:53Speaker 00

  You gotta take a risk, you gotta take, you gotta take the risk. If it goes well, it goes well.

• 1:11:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:00Speaker 00

  It goes well. So like as you said about Alex Burke, technically, we wouldn't care if he walked out of that and got knocked out. We wouldn't give a shit.

• 1:12:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:06Speaker 00

  But he's a killer.

• 1:12:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That fight this weekend is very, very interesting.

• 1:12:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:11Joe Rogan?

  Because, so here's the downside to fighting all the time. Fighting all the time with your style is a very different thing because you take so little damage, which is another huge element. Like, I kind of would tell people that if you have a kid and your kid wants to learn martial arts and they want to eventually be an MMA fighter, I would say two things. Number one, wrestling. Take that kid and teach him how to wrestle because if you could just develop takedown defense and understanding of grappling, at least you have a base from the time you're real little.

• 1:12:41Speaker 00

  Exactly, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:42Joe Rogan?

  That should be your base.

• 1:12:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:43Joe Rogan?

  Because it's the most important aspect of the fight. If you can't grapple, a guy can take you down and he can hold you down. You can't do shit about it. Number two, learn how to point fight.

• 1:12:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:53Joe Rogan?

  Learn how to point fight.

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  Learn distance control.

• 1:12:55Joe Rogan?

  There's a different thing that you guys are doing. If you got like, people think of Billy Blanks as Taibo. You gotta go back and watch Billy Blanks when he was a fucking karate wizard dude.

• 1:13:04Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:13:05Joe Rogan?

  He was a wizard.

• 1:13:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:06Joe Rogan?

  And he was hitting people where you couldn't hit him.

• 1:13:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:09Joe Rogan?

  You know, although the old school guys were all like light on the feet, bladed style, and they had this leap in ability that if you're used to a guy standing in front of you, it's a giant problem. And you don't have the timing to solve it. You could go two, three rounds deep before you start actually landing anything.

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:13:26Joe Rogan?

  You can't do anything to them.

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:28Joe Rogan?

  It's a giant problem. And I would say you want to be the person giving the other person that problem.

• 1:13:32Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:13:33Joe Rogan?

  Then you can learn all the other stuff too.

• 1:13:35Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:13:35Joe Rogan?

  Learn your boxing fundamentals and Muay Thai and knees and elbows, but if they're nowhere near you and you can hit them, you can close that gap quick. You have a blitz.

• 1:13:45Speaker 00

  So I mean, understanding that distance control.

• 1:13:47Joe Rogan?

  Yes. And also the feints, the stutter steps.

• 1:13:51Speaker 00

  Those things change the game.

• 1:13:52Joe Rogan?

  Yes. There's so much movement in that style of fighting that just gets. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average co-pay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try. In fact, don't even wait until the 10th because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time, not just on World Mental Health Day. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks

• 1:14:35Joe Rogan?

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  year, ZipRecruiter is one of the best places to start your search because you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. And because ZipRecruiter helps sort through thousands of resumes and applications showing you the most qualified and interesting ones first. There's even an option for candidates to explain why they want the job. Let ZipRecruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise. Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. It's lost when people are plotting and just teeping each other in the stomach and kicking their legs.

• 1:16:05Speaker 00

  But it's funny, people always used to go on about me and Wonderboy Thompson fighting. And I'd always say, like, it won't be as exciting as you think. For us, like me and him, there'll be moments where we're bouncing, faking, and we'll laugh at each other because we saw what would have happened if one of us went, but the crowd's like, the fuck is going on? Fight? The fuck are you guys doing?

• 1:16:26Joe Rogan?

  Smiling at each other.

• 1:16:28Speaker 00

  They don't get the fight that's going on.

• 1:16:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:16:31Speaker 00

  In the moment, and I say it's not as exciting, two pluses don't always give you that plus.

• 1:16:36Joe Rogan?

  Not always, but you still wanna see it.

• 1:16:38Speaker 00

  Of course, people always wanna just.

• 1:16:39Joe Rogan?

  It's also like, fighting doesn't have to always be ultimate excitement. You have to, like, that's why I say no stand-ups, ever. When a guy takes a guy down, that person on the bottom does not wanna be on the bottom. They wanna be up, if they can't get up, tough shit. It's only five rounds, every fight starts and ends it up, which is a giant, giant advantage for a striker. Cause otherwise, they wouldn't even be able to get themselves up.

• 1:17:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:05Joe Rogan?

  So, none of that, see, it's gotta, it's gotta be pure, it's gotta be real. Can't have like, ways that a guy won only because the rules set it up for him to get to a better position.

• 1:17:15Speaker 00

  I agree, the only, the only thing that I find slightly frustrating in those, in that element is, I don't mind the wrestling, I think wrestling is a beautiful art, and is, like you said, one of the most important arts, to dictate where you want the fight to go.

• 1:17:32Speaker 00

  But, if you're taking me down, try to kill me.

• 1:17:37Joe Rogan?

  I agree.

• 1:17:37Speaker 00

  Try to, try to finish the fight, don't just take me down and just.

• 1:17:41Joe Rogan?

  I agree.

• 1:17:42Speaker 00

  I've had people like, grabbing my legs and looking at the clock.

• 1:17:44Joe Rogan?

  Here's the thing, if they're not good enough to kill you.

• 1:17:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Joe Rogan?

  Right? What if they're good enough to take you down and hold you down, but then they just have to be real defensive afterwards? And they'll throw a little pity pat, I know, I know.

• 1:17:56Speaker 00

  That's the only element that I just.

• 1:17:57Joe Rogan?

  But here's the thing, they're not good enough to do more, do you know what I'm saying? Like.

• 1:18:02Speaker 00

  But you must be, though.

• 1:18:03Joe Rogan?

  Maybe not, uh-uh, maybe not. Maybe only good enough, like, you're so good and they're just good enough to hold you down? But if they've reined up and started range, and then you fucking framed off, you got to half-guard, you got back up to your feet, all of a sudden, we're dealing with this shit again, fuck that. But if you just stay on top and don't take any chances, now you can't do shit.

• 1:18:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree, it's just.

• 1:18:26Joe Rogan?

  It's boring as fuck.

• 1:18:27Speaker 00

  And it's not, for me, it's not even the boring element of it, like, I still enjoy that aspect, if I was watching, I only enjoy that aspect because I know what I'm looking at now, like, I'm like, oh, he's, he's got, okay, like, he's got the, he's grabbed his wrist there, okay, I can see what he's trying to work to, okay, no, he didn't get it, okay, I can, I'm still in the fight. Whereas some people, I guess, the people, if you don't get into grappling, you're not gonna know what's happening, other than they're just lying there. So I get it, for them. But for me still, it's just like, the aim of this game is for me to beat you, and I mean like, take, knock you out, put you to sleep. So I'm trying to show you that I am the stronger man as a warrior. And that's not by holding you.

• 1:19:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:19:02Speaker 00

  That's not by holding you down. Holding you down to get you to position to land his elbow and hold you down to get this position to land his, yeah, but just to...

• 1:19:11Joe Rogan?

  I completely agree. However, even though I'm a fan of yours, if a wrestler who had that boring style, took you down and held you down for three rounds and wanted a decision, I'd be like, damn, he did it.

• 1:19:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:25Joe Rogan?

  He did it because he can't do it any other way. If he can't stand up with you, he's gonna get fucked up. And he can take you down anytime. Why would he ever let you up? And if losing position is dangerous, so of like, if you're very explosive and you're very good at grappling, you're very good on the bottom, you've gotten submissions off the bottom. If a guy reigns up and starts throwing shots, but he feels like his base is gone, and he just wants to clinch and hold on and maintain position, and he maintains position with this kind of shit.

• 1:19:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:51Joe Rogan?

  On top and doing this kind of shit, just little movements, like, he's still getting away with that.

• 1:19:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree. I just...

• 1:19:58Joe Rogan?

  Cause that might be his only pack, right, for you. But the thing is, he's not good enough.

• 1:20:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:04Joe Rogan?

  Where then you have guys like Khabib. Khabib gets you down, you're getting fucked up. And you're getting fucked up constantly. Everybody loved it.

• 1:20:12Speaker 00

  He's talking to you, he's creating a space by still pinning you.

• 1:20:15Joe Rogan?

  He's crushing your legs in between his legs and he's fucking way on you.

• 1:20:20Speaker 00

  That I can appreciate all day, every day.

• 1:20:22Joe Rogan?

  I can too, but some guys aren't good enough. They're still fighting.

• 1:20:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:26Joe Rogan?

  Right? They're in there, they're like, eh, they're not good enough. There's guys at a world-class level that are not gonna be world champions, but they might be able to beat a guy who could be a world champion. If they can do that thing.

• 1:20:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, just...

• 1:20:39Joe Rogan?

  It sucks.

• 1:20:39Speaker 00

  I know, I know. It's hard to, it's hard to classify as a world championship fighter then.

• 1:20:45Joe Rogan?

  Okay, well, let's talk about Hamzat then.

• 1:20:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:48Joe Rogan?

  Hamzat Dragan Stupulci is a perfect example of that. You got an elite grappler who dominated the fight without, with very little damage.

• 1:20:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, in, when I dominated, to the point where you're, you're in the worst position you could be in, in MMA. You're in a crucifix position.

• 1:21:03Joe Rogan?

  Over and over again.

• 1:21:03Speaker 00

  Every round.

• 1:21:05Joe Rogan?

  Over and over again.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  And you

• 1:21:07Joe Rogan?

  You can't do shit about it.

• 1:21:08Speaker 00

  You let him just.

• 1:21:09Joe Rogan?

  You can't do shit about it.

• 1:21:11Speaker 00

  But so do you think that is, he's worried about his, him exploding? Cause in my head, I'm like, the fight ends if I keep, if I elbow the shit out of you right now.

• 1:21:20Joe Rogan?

  I think he's worried about the chaos and Drick is getting back to his feet. And you know, they wanted to just win. This is the whole thing, cause he came back to his corner apparently. And this is told to me secondhand, but I'm pretty sure it's true.

• 1:21:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:32Joe Rogan?

  Um, by a reliable source that he was saying, can I box now? I was like, no.

• 1:21:35Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:21:36Joe Rogan?

  No, you're not fucking boxing. His team was like, take him down. He can't, look, if you got that clear of a dominance.

• 1:21:43Speaker 00

  That I still agree with though, as the coach is saying, no, get, take him down. But I'm saying, once you are in that position.

• 1:21:49Joe Rogan?

  Smash.

• 1:21:49Speaker 00

  Smash.

• 1:21:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:51Speaker 00

  Your whole thing is smash.

• 1:21:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:53Speaker 00

  Smash the shit out, that's what the hell, like.

• 1:21:55Joe Rogan?

  I think they just wanted that win, no matter what. You know, cause it's like, it's such a big deal. Hamzat finally got a shot at the title.

• 1:22:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:02Joe Rogan?

  Like, just like, what is the clearest, most intelligent? Like, if you're betting a billion dollars on this fight, what's the best way to victory?

• 1:22:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:10Joe Rogan?

  Fucking just take him down.

• 1:22:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:12Joe Rogan?

  You can take him down anytime you want to, hold him down, punch him a few times.

• 1:22:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:16Joe Rogan?

  Make sure you're in dominant position, so you're not gonna get stood back up.

• 1:22:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:19Joe Rogan?

  If the referee starts talking to you and telling you, you gotta start throwing a little bit of this, do a little bit of that. Fake a submission, don't throw all your gas into it. You know, do whatever the fuck you gotta do, but get that goddamn title.

• 1:22:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:31Joe Rogan?

  Right? And then.

• 1:22:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, fair.

• 1:22:34Joe Rogan?

  Then, you know, there's gonna be some guys that he can't do that to.

• 1:22:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:37Joe Rogan?

  And that's where things get interesting.

• 1:22:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. But who, who would you say that is though? Cause I, he's, that, his wrestling style is just.

• 1:22:42Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 1:22:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's.

• 1:22:45Joe Rogan?

  So Brendan Schaub had been to his training camp.

• 1:22:47Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:22:47Joe Rogan?

  And he called me up, he goes, he goes, bro, we gotta talk.

• 1:22:50Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:22:50Joe Rogan?

  He goes, I just got back watching Hamzat train. He goes, I've never seen anything like that in my fucking life. He's like, dude, but I'm telling you, he's mopping the floor with like, division one, all Americans, world-class grapplers. Jiu-Jitsu black belts. He, he goes, he's mopping the floor with people. He goes, it's nuts.

• 1:23:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:09Joe Rogan?

  He goes, they asked me if I wanna spar with him. He, he, Schaub goes, fuck you.

• 1:23:16Joe Rogan?

  Fuck you, I'm not going in there. He goes, he was mauling people on the ground. He goes, I never seen anything like it. He goes, it was, it was crazy. He goes, he's so high level.

• 1:23:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I had the privilege of going to the gym and, uh, in Dubai and, uh, trained alongside him. And I saw it for myself and it's, yeah, I was like.

• 1:23:37Joe Rogan?

  It's a shocking level of grappling.

• 1:23:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:39Joe Rogan?

  And when you can achieve that shocking level of grappling on world-class MMA fighters, why wouldn't you do it? This is, this is my thing, my take on it. Like if you just wanna win and make as much money as possible and keep doing that. I mean, you should finish guys whenever you can.

• 1:23:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:55Joe Rogan?

  But if you don't think you can and the path to victory is grappling, this is still a sport.

• 1:23:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, fair.

• 1:24:00Joe Rogan?

  If it wasn't a sport, there'd still be head butts.

• 1:24:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, there'd still be stamps and.

• 1:24:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, stomps, soccer kicks, all the wild shit that used to be. You'd still be able to wear shoes, who gives a fuck?

• 1:24:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:11Joe Rogan?

  But it's a sport. So if it's a sport, we've got some rules. I, I just don't think, I don't think there's anything wrong with winning by the rules. It's not my favorite style.

• 1:24:19Speaker 00

  Fair, fair, fair, fair.

• 1:24:20Joe Rogan?

  My favorite style is either a knockout artist or a submission artist. I like a guy who just finishes everything.

• 1:24:25Speaker 00

  Oliveira when he was.

• 1:24:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, when he's in his prime.

• 1:24:28Speaker 00

  In his prime, just kidding.

• 1:24:29Joe Rogan?

  Woo! Catching triangles and darses and, oh my God, he was a monster.

• 1:24:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:34Joe Rogan?

  He was so good. Those guys, like, when you watch a guy who's like an elite world-class submission artist and the fight goes to the ground, it's just a totally different thing. You know, you, you, you're in real, like, Fabricio Verdun when he was in his prime, when he caught Fedor with that triangle.

• 1:24:47Speaker 00

  Bro, that was.

• 1:24:48Joe Rogan?

  Catching Fedor with a triangle is crazy.

• 1:24:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:51Joe Rogan?

  Just, if you know how explosive that guy is and how fast he is and strong and what a great grappler he is.

• 1:24:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:57Joe Rogan?

  But Fabricio Verdun's another guy who doesn't get his due. When you think about all-time GOATs.

• 1:25:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:02Joe Rogan?

  You think about Noguera.

• 1:25:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:04Joe Rogan?

  You think about Fedor and you think about Minotaro. And Fabricio Verdun tapped them all.

• 1:25:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:10Joe Rogan?

  He tapped all the greats.

• 1:25:12Speaker 00

  Very true.

• 1:25:12Joe Rogan?

  All of them.

• 1:25:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:13Joe Rogan?

  Tapped them!

• 1:25:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:15Joe Rogan?

  Tapped! All the greats didn't just win by a decision.

• 1:25:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, didn't just hold them.

• 1:25:22Joe Rogan?

  Tap Fedor when Fedor was Fedor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People like, whoa, that's crazy.

• 1:25:28Speaker 00

  Fedor's a beast.

• 1:25:29Joe Rogan?

  Bro, he was a monster stoic warrior from Russia. Not, no expression.

• 1:25:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's the earliest, the first of his time.

• 1:25:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, way ahead of his time.

• 1:25:39Speaker 00

  First of his time.

• 1:25:41Joe Rogan?

  Way ahead of his time. His ability to catch submissions off his back with lightning speed. He had a lightning fast arm bar.

• 1:25:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:48Joe Rogan?

  And power on the feet.

• 1:25:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:50Joe Rogan?

  Bro, he walked down Krokop.

• 1:25:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 1:25:53Joe Rogan?

  Crazy, with stand up.

• 1:25:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, Krokop's head kicks were insane.

• 1:25:56Joe Rogan?

  Every kick, every kick, but like Fedor was blocking them so intelligently too. He was using that high block with the knee way up like that to catch that left kick. And he caught it, they caught it shin to shin many times. It was, that was a crazy fight, but Fedor in his prime was so good, man. Because he was the first guy other than Minotaro. Minotaro, but he was more dangerous on the feet than Minotaro. But Minotaro on the ground was like one of the first guys like super dangerous off his back.

• 1:26:25Speaker 00

  Off his back, yeah.

• 1:26:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, just super, super lethal guard. Like when he beat Bob Sapp.

• 1:26:32Joe Rogan?

  That was the nuttiest fight in the history of MMA. That was the nutty, Bob Sapp was 350 pounds with ass.

• 1:26:38Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, he's like, he's kinda like your, your Nganu nowadays.

• 1:26:42Joe Rogan?

  Babe, but way bigger.

• 1:26:43Speaker 00

  Always, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:44Joe Rogan?

  Way bigger, but not as skilled.

• 1:26:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I know, he's gotten, yeah, Francis's improvement. Cause in his earlier stages, I was just like, yeah, he's got power, but he's technically like.

• 1:26:53Joe Rogan?

  Francis basically beat Tyson Fury in a boxing match.

• 1:26:57Speaker 00

  Crazy, right?

• 1:26:58Joe Rogan?

  Basically beat him, cause I, I scored it for him.

• 1:27:00Speaker 00

  I scored it for him, a hundred percent. They, they just couldn't, they could not let that happen.

• 1:27:04Joe Rogan?

  He dropped Tyson Fury with a left hook and then danced in front of him. I mean, that's, that's, that's skill. I mean, he wasn't ready for Anthony Joshua because Anthony Joshua was a different thing.

• 1:27:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:15Joe Rogan?

  Like it's just, he's got more one-shot knockout power.

• 1:27:18Speaker 00

  It was a bad game plan as well, though. He kept, oh, he likes to switch him. But again, this is where the boxing is, if you don't have that kind of intellect in the boxing, that footwork and foot positioning is, put your foot on one side, you're gonna get killed, you're putting your foot on the other side, you're, you're, you're safe. You can kind of manage, manage the power and see the punches coming. But he was kept switching stances by just putting and leaving himself in just the wrong positions.

• 1:27:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he wasn't ready.

• 1:27:46Speaker 00

  Wasn't ready, wasn't ready, wasn't ready. There was a lot of hype off the Fury fight.

• 1:27:50Joe Rogan?

  Also Joshua got to watch him box in the Fury fight, see some patterns. Fury, I think, probably took him lightly.

• 1:27:55Speaker 00

  Yes, I think so.

• 1:27:56Joe Rogan?

  He's one of the greatest of all time. This guy's never had a boxing match. At the beginning of the fight, he's like, time to go to school. Like, oh, really?

• 1:28:03Speaker 00

  And then he probably got stunned, he got stunned and that was it, he's now working.

• 1:28:06Joe Rogan?

  You talk to any fighter, they'll tell you the worst times of their life is when they thought that a guy was nothing. And then in the middle of the fight, they realize, oh my god, I'm losing. They took a guy lightly and they didn't get up for the fight. And then they went in there and that dude was fired up and ready to go.

• 1:28:20Speaker 00

  You got, but that's the thing, you can't take anybody lightly though.

• 1:28:23Joe Rogan?

  No. Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, another perfect example, stuff like that.

• 1:28:27Speaker 00

  Hundred percent, no. This guy was partying every day.

• 1:28:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, exactly. He did not take it seriously at all.

• 1:28:33Speaker 00

  At all. He got big, the biggest respect for Buster Douglas on that one, though, that was.

• 1:28:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, it was one of the greatest performances of any heavyweight title fight ever.

• 1:28:42Speaker 00

  To wanna walk in and do that as well.

• 1:28:43Joe Rogan?

  The fact that that guy could do that the whole time, but only did it against Mike Tyson is nuts. Because he was one of those guys, and we all know them, that is super talented, and just never realizes their full potential. Like gym, you know the guys in the gym, then like you'd see them spar and train.

• 1:28:57Speaker 00

  I talk about this all the time, like, I've had so many people, obviously I've got to see over the years that are talented, and again, it's the same thing, but can you do it when it counts? Can you do it when the lights are on? Can you do it when there's pressure and it means something to you? You, your friends, your family, money?

• 1:29:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:12Speaker 00

  Can you still do it?

• 1:29:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:14Speaker 00

  That's when it counts. But I've seen guys that are, there's a guy, actually, and I always talk about him just because he was super unique and weirdly enough, he got to the UFC for, on a short stint, Galore Buffondo, I don't know if you ever remember him. He only did, he only had two fights, but he fought Charlie Ward. And I, I call it hadouken. He just grabbed him and like threw his head into the floor.

• 1:29:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 1:29:39Speaker 00

  And it was a K O. And I don't, he actually never got the, the bonus for that. I don't know how he didn't, cause I've never seen anybody just throw someone's head down. You need to watch it. But, uh, look, boom. There you go. And if you, if you keep it going and you see how he finishes, look, he's like.

• 1:29:58Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Oh. Landed hard.

• 1:30:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:01Joe Rogan?

  That dude landed hard.

• 1:30:02Speaker 00

  And if you see the finish, look at, this is how athletic this guy was. Just watch. Light work. Just landing, just landing a little.

• 1:30:08Joe Rogan?

  Perfect landing.

• 1:30:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, perfect landing. Now, I had to deal with this every day. Yeah, and that was nothing. He's super explosive. But again, he's a striker, very weird striker, like kick, his kicks are like his hands. He can

• 1:30:26Speaker 00

  for ages, yeah? I was sparring him one time and me and him, like I, I'm the guy with him. When he steps in, my eyes do this and I'm like, okay, I have to make sure I'm, cause a kick will come from anywhere. And we're sparring and going back, going back and forth and I'm, I'm in my element. And everything slows down for me. And I see his head drop down. And alarm bells are going off and I'm like,

• 1:30:54Speaker 00

  he doesn't, he doesn't shoot. He doesn't go for takedowns. But I'm feeling alarm bells going off. I'm like, something's gone wrong. I don't know why this felt this slow. Something is wrong. And I've never done this block in my life. And I went like this.

• 1:31:12Speaker 00

  X block. I've never done this in my life. Never been taught this. My body said, throw your hands. He did that.

• 1:31:19Joe Rogan?

  And did a cartwheel kick.

• 1:31:22Speaker 00

  A front flip.

• 1:31:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh geez.

• 1:31:24Speaker 00

  Landed on his foot and ax kicked me. If I didn't do that, I'd be sitting here in two right now.

• 1:31:31Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:31:31Speaker 00

  Talking to you about the story that I once used to do MMA and this guy split me in half. He and he's.

• 1:31:38Joe Rogan?

  Front flip ax kick.

• 1:31:39Speaker 00

  He's in a front flip ax kick. I.

• 1:31:41Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:31:42Speaker 00

  On his Instagram, I don't know if you'll find it, but on his Instagram, there's clips of him doing it on a bag. And he literally flips, lands on his foot, bah, hits the bag and he's just standing. But he did it. I've blocked it. Now, even that alone, because I've now blocked it, you should fall off balance. He took his foot off and carried on sparring. Everyone in the gym was like, what the fuck?

• 1:32:03Joe Rogan?

  Shh.

• 1:32:05Speaker 00

  How was that?

• 1:32:06Joe Rogan?

  I never even thought anyone could do that.

• 1:32:09Speaker 00

  He's another person that in the cage, he never showed this stuff. I've seen him somewhat on a single leg. And he's run up the cage and slipped up the single leg and kicked off the cage and landed behind the person and started. I'm, it's always when I talk about this, it sounds like I'm exaggerating. He used to do stuff that I've ne- it's only in games. And this is why everyone loves.

• 1:32:31Joe Rogan?

  Just watching him do that flip, I believe every word you're saying.

• 1:32:34Speaker 00

  He's.

• 1:32:35Joe Rogan?

  Because that was crazy. The landing was crazy.

• 1:32:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, like it was.

• 1:32:37Joe Rogan?

  Like he was a feather.

• 1:32:38Speaker 00

  Doof, it's not like this.

• 1:32:40Joe Rogan?

  No, he landed softly on one knee. Yeah.

• 1:32:45Speaker 00

  He was insane, but just never showed it.

• 1:32:49Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Has he retired?

• 1:32:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's like, he just, he teaches and stuff now, but he just. And it's a shame and he was a fun character, like I said, amazing person to train with because he made me better. Because he's, and he's got the few people that in the gym that could actually kick me in the head. And. And catch me because I usually, I'm good at seeing, I've got good eyes and he's just, yeah, it was just something else.

• 1:33:10Joe Rogan?

  Crazy that you knew it. Like you had intuition.

• 1:33:13Speaker 00

  I don't know what happened. But as I've said, if you don't do this, you're going to die today.

• 1:33:18Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Wow. That's crazy that you recognize that of all movements.

• 1:33:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, but again, he's, because like, he never shoots. He's a striker. He was sprawling and start doing his jiu jitsu from there. Never really shoots. And he just went like this. And I'm like, what's going on here? There's.

• 1:33:38Speaker 00

  I, I don't feel like sprawling. Something's wrong, but I don't feel like sprawling. Oh, here you go. Here you go.

• 1:33:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 1:33:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, he does one, he does one and he lands, he does one and he lands it.

• 1:33:48Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:33:49Speaker 00

  Boom.

• 1:33:50Joe Rogan?

  That is so crazy.

• 1:33:51Speaker 00

  Imagine doing that during a sparring. It doesn't make sense. And he's, he's, I'm talking, he's hitting the bag, boom, look.

• 1:33:58Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:34:00Speaker 00

  And I tell people, people feel like, ah, you're talking rubbish. You can hear that, oh.

• 1:34:09Speaker 00

  If that hit me.

• 1:34:11Joe Rogan?

  That is so wild.

• 1:34:14Speaker 00

  And I wish he was able to show this stuff.

• 1:34:17Joe Rogan?

  Explosion you have to have to pull that off. The amount of force you generate.

• 1:34:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. And who would see that coming?

• 1:34:25Speaker 00

  I don't, I still don't to this day know how I saw it coming, but.

• 1:34:28Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:34:28Speaker 00

  If he did that, and again, he goes into, he went into these fights and he would, it would be relatively basic. It would, he wouldn't show all of this kind of stuff.

• 1:34:40Joe Rogan?

  So he would tighten up in fights?

• 1:34:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, he'd just tighten up a little bit and just wouldn't express himself in the same way.

• 1:34:45Joe Rogan?

  Did anybody at that time work with like a mental coach?

• 1:34:49Speaker 00

  Uh, no, no, I wouldn't, from our gym, the only person I, I know did it from our gym was actually Alex Reed. And, but he is a weird character anyway.

• 1:35:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:01Speaker 00

  Funny guy, lovely guy. Um, but he used to have like therapists come and do this kind of stuff. And at the time, he, I feel like I didn't care for it because he just made it seem lame.

• 1:35:12Speaker 00

  It's just because it was from him, but I.

• 1:35:15Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:44Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:09Speaker 00

  I understand more so as over my time, the importance of the mental aspects of things as well.

• 1:37:15Joe Rogan?

  Maybe if someone could explain to him, or if you could have a conversation about what goes wrong when he competes.

• 1:37:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:23Joe Rogan?

  Like, what are the thought processes when he competes? And what could be done different to change that thought? Like, to combat them, when those thoughts come up.

• 1:37:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:32Joe Rogan?

  To have a tool.

• 1:37:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:33Joe Rogan?

  Have a mental toolbox where you go, no, no, no.

• 1:37:36Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:37:36Joe Rogan?

  We're not going to entertain this kind of negativity. We're going to stay positive. We're going to stay zen.

• 1:37:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:41Joe Rogan?

  You know, the most important things, don't ever give in to anxiety. Don't let it get to you. Don't let it follow you. You're positive. You're breathing. You're moving. You're a killer. Keep moving and just have someone with him maybe initially to coach him through those movements.

• 1:37:55Speaker 00

  I wish there was some, again, but again, also, maybe the gym that he's in with us at London Shoot, that's not a thing.

• 1:38:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:38:03Speaker 00

  We beast, like, we're just gonna...

• 1:38:05Joe Rogan?

  That's the problem.

• 1:38:05Speaker 00

  And the thing is, he was, he'd still look amazing up until the fight. He'd get to the fight and you'd be like, bro, I can't wait for people to see this.

• 1:38:12Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 1:38:13Speaker 00

  And he'd get there and you're like... What are you doing, man?

• 1:38:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:16Speaker 00

  And it's just, it's frustrating because he's still super, he was still super talented. He's still, you know, he won one and I think he lost the next one and then that was it.

• 1:38:24Speaker 00

  But even his previous fights before that, he's got some exceptional fights, but just.

• 1:38:28Joe Rogan?

  Not what he's capable of doing.

• 1:38:30Speaker 00

  I've never seen what I've seen in the gym on stage.

• 1:38:35Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:38:35Speaker 00

  Never seen, and he's still got signed to the UFC, just because he was still talented, but, and obviously somebody saw his talent and was like, yeah, I want that, but. And nobody's ever seen what I've seen this guy do, and all of our teammates are like. Oh, if you've seen that, this, yeah, everybody would be throwing money at this guy, just make sure he's on the next card.

• 1:38:53Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy.

• 1:38:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:54Joe Rogan?

  It's really crazy.

• 1:38:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:56Joe Rogan?

  Because it seems to be like that in almost every sport.

• 1:39:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:00Joe Rogan?

  But in fighting in particular.

• 1:39:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:02Joe Rogan?

  Because it's the biggest mental hurdle, you know, there's, there's no team to fall back on, there's no, I guess we lost tonight, boys. No, you got fucked up in front of the whole world and that's the sport that you're in. You're in the sport with the highest highs and the lowest lows.

• 1:39:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:19Joe Rogan?

  So that pressure is just, it's unexplainable to the average person.

• 1:39:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, you can't explain it really. This is why I try my best to focus on the element of fun. Because I feel like when I'm in, when I'm dancing, smiling, laughing, joking, everything slows down and everything's enjoyable. There's no stress and anytime I feel slightly stressed, you might see me dance, which is interesting because people just think I'm just doing it for the other person, to mock the other person. And sometimes it's just, ah, just stay chill, man, you're here, you're here, like, you don't need to do anything more than this.

• 1:39:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:40:00Speaker 00

  If I feel like a little bit like, oh, that was a bit, and my mind starts going, no, no, no, no, let's shake it off, get into this, get into your mode again. And then go back to enjoying yourself. That's my, but I know some people need to be in this angry state and just, you know, psych themselves into it. And I don't even need to be angry at my opponent. And I think that comes from the fact that I used to have to fight my siblings. It's never, it's not based on anger, I love them, like, but my dad is, he'd say like, yeah, that's not your sibling on the map, but straight afterwards, make sure you pick that person up, make sure they're good, da, da, da. And again, my brother would beat me up, my other brother would beat me up, my sister would beat me up.

• 1:40:41Speaker 00

  Everybody, but I still had love for them. So I don't, I've never needed anger to thing. And, and the fact that my family did this thing, and even my nephews and stuff now, we still, they still, it's generational, just something that keeps us all together and we're so close. It's not based on being angry, just based on learning something, enjoying something and doing it with people that you love. So I can, that's why I can make it fun. Everyone, everyone loves this whole like tense like, and I don't.

• 1:41:09Joe Rogan?

  I think what a lot of people don't understand too is the hardest part of it is the day of the fight. It's not the fight. Once a fight starts happening, then you're there.

• 1:41:19Speaker 00

  You're in it.

• 1:41:19Joe Rogan?

  You're in it. And it's not scary.

• 1:41:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:21Joe Rogan?

  Unless you're, you know, unless you're getting fucked up. When you're getting fucked up and you know, like the end is near. There's like, like, you wanna see ultimate bravery? Khalil Roundtree in the last round with Pereira, when Pereira's putting it on him, that's ultimate bravery. Because he knows he's getting fucked up. He knows he doesn't have much time. There's nowhere out. His skill set is all in stand up. I mean, he can take guys to the ground, but at this point, that's not gonna happen.

• 1:41:47Speaker 00

  It's not happening, yeah.

• 1:41:48Joe Rogan?

  And his face is broken up.

• 1:41:49Speaker 00

  Bust it up.

• 1:41:49Joe Rogan?

  And Pereira's doing that Cobra thing, where he gets Cobra style and hits back and slams in. Oh, it was terrifying. But that's, that, that kind of bravery in front of the whole world, a lot of people, they're not sure if they have that.

• 1:42:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, fair.

• 1:42:03Joe Rogan?

  And so there's just that, the pressure of that in front of the whole world like that is overwhelming.

• 1:42:08Speaker 00

  Just do enough, just do enough.

• 1:42:10Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. They're scared.

• 1:42:12Speaker 00

  Which shrinks you.

• 1:42:12Joe Rogan?

  And sometimes super duper talented people are the most scared. Because it kinda came too easy for them. There's a thing about super duper talented people that for some reason, like that gift comes with a curse. And that curse is that it came to you too easily, so you never really developed.

• 1:42:31Speaker 00

  Understand the grind.

• 1:42:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the real will and drive to like overcome, just make these little tiny wins every day to pile onto a skill set. You're just a lightning bolt. You know, you're a lightning bolt and then, you know, when it's time to actually fight, you're like. You don't know if you've been tested.

• 1:42:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:49Joe Rogan?

  You don't know who you are yet.

• 1:42:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I get that a lot, though, as in like, people are always like, ah, he's just naturally talented. And only when I tell people that I used to get my ass handed to me.

• 1:42:57Joe Rogan?

  But this is the thing that I've always said, guys who grow up with brothers, especially older brothers who can kick their ass, they're ready to fight at all times.

• 1:43:05Speaker 00

  You have to be.

• 1:43:06Joe Rogan?

  Fighting in their fucking house. They're ready to fight with guys who can beat them up their whole life.

• 1:43:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:12Joe Rogan?

  Just that alone, like, sets you up for competition in a different way than someone like, I grew up with my sister, we had a fight.

• 1:43:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:19Joe Rogan?

  It's like, nobody beat me up at home. It's totally different.

• 1:43:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:22Joe Rogan?

  Cause you're, you're accustomed to being around hostile males who are dominating.

• 1:43:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Was it older or younger, though?

• 1:43:29Joe Rogan?

  Younger sister.

• 1:43:30Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, cause my older sister would still beat me up.

• 1:43:32Joe Rogan?

  My sister never got into martial arts. I was the only one in the family got into it luckily. But if I did, if I grew up with a bunch of brothers, I'm sure we'd be beating the fuck out of each other.

• 1:43:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Well, weird, weird enough, we had to do it. It was one thing again, he'd always say, you can't, no, this is not for out here. This is for in there. If you got an issue, verbalize it, and if you still have an issue, we can sort it out in there. But yeah. I'd be annoyed at my brother. We'd have fights every now and again, but nothing crazy.

• 1:43:58Joe Rogan?

  But it's just the accustomed, being accustomed to just constant back and forth. How about fuck you?

• 1:44:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:06Joe Rogan?

  And it's like it's in your house. It's in your house. It's where you sleep.

• 1:44:10Speaker 00

  I was the wind up.

• 1:44:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah?

• 1:44:12Speaker 00

  But I couldn't fight, so I had to, I had to do it some other way.

• 1:44:15Joe Rogan?

  So you had to talk some shit.

• 1:44:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, talk some shit. I mean, I'm the one that.

• 1:44:17Joe Rogan?

  Have to be a little tougher because you're the smaller one.

• 1:44:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:20Joe Rogan?

  That's, that's part of the thing, you know? What's crazy about Jon Jones is his, his brother.

• 1:44:25Speaker 00

  He's got two older brothers, no?

• 1:44:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think one of them is younger. Isn't Chandler younger?

• 1:44:32Joe Rogan?

  But they're all beasts.

• 1:44:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, of course.

• 1:44:34Joe Rogan?

  So you're growing up in a house.

• 1:44:35Speaker 00

  NFL, no?

• 1:44:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So you're growing up in a house of beasts. Like, you, you better, you better be ready for some hostility. You gotta be ready for some aggression. And there's like, there's a giant benefit of that as in far as, as far as mindset. Because the mindset, you're accustomed to hostility. I mean, all his brothers are super freaks, just giant athletes. And so, you know, he's in this house with highly competitive males his whole life.

• 1:45:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:03Joe Rogan?

  So you're totally accustomed to competition.

• 1:45:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:05Joe Rogan?

  Whereas with some people, competition is like, super overwhelming.

• 1:45:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:09Joe Rogan?

  And it's, it's a test you don't want to take. You almost don't want to find out if you're good enough.

• 1:45:14Speaker 00

  I think school, even the school system has like, they slowly, over the years, they slowly taken out certain things that allows, challenges people in a way that gives them that gift of being competitive and, especially in the UK, I don't, I'm not sure about in the States, but in the UK, we, they, they changed the rules, this was just after I would have left, to, um, not allowed to pick teams. Because, you know.

• 1:45:38Joe Rogan?

  Because then people will feel bad if they got picked last.

• 1:45:40Speaker 00

  I'm like, if you're shit, I'm not picking you, get better, right? Yeah, this is real life, like.

• 1:45:45Joe Rogan?

  That's how it works in real life. And that, that bad feeling of getting picked last.

• 1:45:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:49Joe Rogan?

  Lionel Richie was talking about that yesterday.

• 1:45:51Speaker 00

  Oh, serious?

• 1:45:52Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Did Lionel Richie, before he was in a band, it was always like, he was the last one to get picked for this, he was the last one, he was talking about that openly. But look, that's what created Lionel Richie.

• 1:46:00Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 1:46:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:01Speaker 00

  And again, I think we, or again, over there, I'm not sure here, but we model, uh, Molly, Molly Cottrell, like.

• 1:46:07Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:46:07Speaker 00

  The kids, and then they think that they, you, you surround them in cotton wool.

• 1:46:11Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 1:46:11Speaker 00

  And then the real life hits them and they're just like, what?

• 1:46:14Joe Rogan?

  It's the opposite of Yoel Romero.

• 1:46:15Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, exactly.

• 1:46:16Joe Rogan?

  You've become a machine. It's the opposite. It's the opposite of that.

• 1:46:21Speaker 00

  I think I was talking to my, um, my brother as well, earlier about how they say, was it, I forget the saying, it's like, tough men create good times, good times, and that, the whole cycle of that, and it's, I find, it's, it's very true though, we're creating too much good times for people, and everybody's complaining about everything nowadays.

• 1:46:39Joe Rogan?

  When things are really good, the problem is, whatever is bad, even mild, when it becomes a giant thing, then you're dealing with like, microaggressions at work, you're like, people get crazy.

• 1:46:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:50Joe Rogan?

  They look for all kinds of grievances everywhere they, they go.

• 1:46:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:53Joe Rogan?

  When you're, when you are involved in like, hard competition, you're not interested in any of that stuff.

• 1:46:59Speaker 00

  At all.

• 1:47:00Joe Rogan?

  Because it's just a giant distraction. The real thing is so difficult. And that's why I think, even though it's uncomfortable for kids, I think like. Wrestling in high school, any kind of competitive sports in high school, martial arts especially.

• 1:47:12Speaker 00

  Hundred percent, I've been an advocate for ages. For ages I've been saying this, like just.

• 1:47:17Joe Rogan?

  It's okay to lose.

• 1:47:18Speaker 00

  It's okay to lose.

• 1:47:19Joe Rogan?

  It's actually good for you.

• 1:47:21Speaker 00

  Very good for you and you need to learn this kind of stuff. Like I said, as soon as you, as soon as they're out of your care, they have to experience that anyway. You can't.

• 1:47:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:29Speaker 00

  You're not, you're, and I used to do this even in, um, when I was teaching. We're teaching a jab or some, teaching a jab and we're doing slipping drills. And you're jabbing like this. I was like, you're not helping anybody by jabbing away from their face because now this guy thinks he's amazing at slipping punches.

• 1:47:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:47Speaker 00

  And then we make him spar and he's like.

• 1:47:54Speaker 00

  Move your fucking head, I'll do what I usually do.

• 1:47:58Speaker 00

  So I'm like, it's better that you hit him in the gym. So then when they go out into the real world or they go into a competition and whatever, they can actually, they're actually good at these drills that I'm giving you. Not, you're not helping by trying to be helpful.

• 1:48:11Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:48:12Speaker 00

  You don't have to hit hard, but be accurate.

• 1:48:13Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:48:14Speaker 00

  Get them used to it and then slowly speed up. Yeah. And then, and then, bro, I say this all the time, but it's exactly the same thing. People need to go through those actual trials and tribulations in certain areas so that then they can be ready for it later on.

• 1:48:26Joe Rogan?

  One hundred percent. And this idea of protecting them and every good gets, everybody gets a participation trophy.

• 1:48:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:33Joe Rogan?

  That's so bad for, it's, that feeling of bad from losing is beneficial. It's just like the feeling of being tired after you work out. That's how you get in shape.

• 1:48:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:43Joe Rogan?

  It's all good for you.

• 1:48:45Speaker 00

  Exactly, it's all good for you.

• 1:48:45Joe Rogan?

  You're getting into a me- emotional shape.

• 1:48:47Speaker 00

  But this is why I feel a lot of people are trying to take shortcuts for everything. Nobody really wants to do the hard work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody wants to do the, the, the, the hard work. And, and I get it if it's, if you're, if it's really excessive, you let it get, get to a certain point. And it's like, okay, you need to get at least some help to get to a certain point to then work out. But you need to work.

• 1:49:07Joe Rogan?

  You need to work and it's good for your brain. Your brain is, we have, for whatever reason, a whole series of human reward systems that are built into our brains. From the times that we were all living in tribes, thousands and thousands of years ago. And in this brain, it requires tasks. There's things, it's like enforced in your brain that if you go out and you make arrowheads and you hunt the deer, you have food. Your family survives, so you have tasks. So you're whittling the stick and you're, you're into it and you better be fucking into it. Because if you're not into it, you're not gonna eat.

• 1:49:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:49:40Joe Rogan?

  So if you have a life where there's none of those things and you're sitting there in front of Netflix. Of course you're depressed.

• 1:49:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:47Joe Rogan?

  Of course you're depressed. Your body's not getting any of the stuff that it needs. Your mind isn't getting any of the tasks that it needs.

• 1:49:54Speaker 00

  Someone was telling me like it's the, what's it, the reptilian mindset that looks for dangers or seeks dangers. Because we're not in a society that has those dangers. We look at danger, our dangers are now, this person looked at me funny, or this person like.

• 1:50:06Joe Rogan?

  Or even worse, your phone.

• 1:50:08Speaker 00

  Your phone, yeah, it's even, it's even easier now, yeah.

• 1:50:10Joe Rogan?

  People are commenting on you, oh, the haters scatting me today.

• 1:50:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, to be fair, it's funny, the first time, this was still early, yeah, so my, my comments were from YouTube initially. I had an Instagram, but I didn't really use it like that. So after my first fight, I was super pumped. I'm like, cause like I said to you, I was so nervous after my first fight. And I always say, I always say, look, if you watch, all of my walkouts have been like, yeah, vibes, yeah, yeah, I'm just happy to be here. My first fight, I was like this.

• 1:50:46Speaker 00

  I was dying inside, Joe, just like, what? In my head, I literally, I was like, why did I decide to do this? I was like, why am I here? But what? I was stressed, the whole walk was the most, the longest walk and you've never seen me so tense. And then the second I got in there and the bell rang, I was like, oh, yeah, same thing, okay. Then I started to feel myself and you know, the vibe, like my energy started, like the MVP that we obviously come to know now came out.

• 1:51:17Speaker 00

  And that was, for me, that was just like, that was great, but in terms of, uh, I just lost where I'll go in.

• 1:51:27Joe Rogan?

  You lost what you're talking about?

• 1:51:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:28Joe Rogan?

  No worries, it happens all the time. So, but that was interesting that then the second fight was the one that it really overwhelmed you.

• 1:51:36Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. That was in the second fight in the, in the UFC that overwhelmed me.

• 1:51:40Joe Rogan?

  But, so the first fight you ever had was when you walked out.

• 1:51:43Speaker 00

  This was when I walked out.

• 1:51:44Joe Rogan?

  The first fight you ever had.

• 1:51:45Speaker 00

  So that was me against, me versus, no, not UFC, me versus, uh, Dishman. And I just walked out and seriously, I just had nothing but fear inside me.

• 1:51:55Joe Rogan?

  And what kind, what, what kind of a athlete was he? What did he do?

• 1:51:59Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm not sure. He's a kick boxer or something. Didn't seem like his first fight. We had, I had like, I think three pullouts before I got to that fight. Like, probably like the three weeks before, like three different people. And at the, at that level, it happens all the time.

• 1:52:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:19Speaker 00

  And I had fights online, so my coach was like, can you, are you able to take these down? I'm like, they're randomly filmed from so many random people.

• 1:52:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:28Speaker 00

  So like, I don't, I wouldn't even know how to, where to begin to find out to try and get them taken down. So I just, if anybody did research, they would see that I've got, I had like a 720 kick.

• 1:52:42Speaker 00

  So it made sense why people was pulling out.

• 1:52:44Joe Rogan?

  For people that don't understand what that means, that's not a 360, 360 degree kick.

• 1:52:51Speaker 00

  This is one of them. This wasn't even the first time I did it.

• 1:52:56Joe Rogan?

  Where is it?

• 1:52:57Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 1:52:58Joe Rogan?

  Is it coming up?

• 1:53:00Speaker 00

  It'll be after this, after, before.

• 1:53:04Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:53:07Speaker 00

  Okay, it's gonna be, yeah, that's it, just before this, just before this.

• 1:53:15Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. That's such a crazy kick. That dude is sitting there going, how the fuck did he hit me with that? He put his hands on his knees and everything. Like, how the fuck did he pull that off?

• 1:53:27Speaker 00

  So I understand why, like, people would look at that and be like, no, no, no.

• 1:53:30Joe Rogan?

  Not yet.

• 1:53:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, but this guy stepped in, uh, and yeah, like, I just, I felt so bad, negative going forward, walking in. But then, once I was in there, but yeah, if you see the walkout. Oh, this one, this one. But even, even how I'm, uh, even here, I'm super tense. Like, it was only until I started bouncing that it was even a thing.

• 1:53:58Joe Rogan?

  What was the thing that was bothering you the most about doing this? Just, just the fact?

• 1:54:02Speaker 00

  Just my decision, like, why did I do this? I don't know specifically.

• 1:54:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh, but once you got loose.

• 1:54:09Speaker 00

  Once I, yeah, once I got in there, I was like, oh, cool.

• 1:54:11Joe Rogan?

  He had an obvious game.

• 1:54:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, he was trying to take me down.

• 1:54:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:15Speaker 00

  He wasn't strong, so I was like, yeah, just push off, like, felt, I was feeling good. And I think after he felt my strength, he was like, okay, he kind of stood back.

• 1:54:25Joe Rogan?

  That's Tyler's such a problem. It's such a problem. I'm watching you move here and I'm thinking, like, what do you do? Oh, you can't do anything. You can't do anything because he's so far away from you and you, like that, when you try to close the distance on him and, or when, rather, he tries to close the distance on you and he just can't. He just can't get close. Like, look at that, that's just nuts. That's a terrible puzzle to try to solve in real life.

• 1:54:52Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:54:53Joe Rogan?

  Wow, look at that dive. That's pretty good, though. You got a hold of your ankle. I mean, that's, that shows you how much you wanted that takedown.

• 1:55:01Speaker 00

  Yep, until this happens.

• 1:55:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:55:07Joe Rogan?

  The best part is just the standing there.

• 1:55:12Joe Rogan?

  That's amazing. Look at this, this is amazing. That's amazing. That's the best not walk off KO ever, right? That's a standoff KO. Like you realize, that's crazy. You didn't even look at him. That's amazing. You just stared at the crowd.

• 1:55:27Speaker 00

  When people ask me like, why did you stand there? Like, what if he came back? I was like, I landed the kick and I stood still and I was thinking he might come back. So I go to spin the other way and land another kick. That was, that was the game. And then when he just, the referee stepped in, I was like, perfect. This looks good. This looks good.

• 1:55:44Joe Rogan?

  It did look good. It looks slick as fuck.

• 1:55:47Speaker 00

  Okay, that's where I remember I was going. I went crazy viral for that. Everyone's like, who is this guy? And I was, I was like, because of the relief that I had because of how tense I was, I was like, oh my God. That was for me, ticking the box that I can actually do this. I can actually make a career of this because I wasn't sure. And got home, what did you jump online? Like, I wanna, I wanna see, like, I'm seeing a video of like crazy thousands of like comments and this and that. Like, okay, maybe the next comment. Maybe the next one? Nope. Yeah, people don't like me.

• 1:56:24Joe Rogan?

  They didn't like you for that video?

• 1:56:26Speaker 00

  I felt like I had murdered someone's child.

• 1:56:28Joe Rogan?

  For that video?

• 1:56:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:30Joe Rogan?

  Okay. That just, that just shows you why you shouldn't read comments.

• 1:56:34Speaker 00

  No, 100%.

• 1:56:34Joe Rogan?

  Because you're only getting the opinions of the dumbest motherfuckers alive. If you just saw that.

• 1:56:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:40Joe Rogan?

  So let me tell you my thought when I saw that. Because when that clip went viral, I went, finally.

• 1:56:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:45Joe Rogan?

  This is proof of what I've been saying for a long time. Like, they're, they have a different thing.

• 1:56:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:50Joe Rogan?

  Like, the really elite point fighters have a totally different thing and you can't even get close to hitting them. And we're seeing that now.

• 1:56:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:57Joe Rogan?

  That was the beginning of it, man.

• 1:56:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:59Joe Rogan?

  Because even though Raymond had really good success and glory.

• 1:57:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was amazing, yeah.

• 1:57:04Joe Rogan?

  He did a great success and glory, but it was different, right? Because you're in a small ring, it's roped off and he wasn't accustomed to leg kicks yet. He had, he had that one spectacular jumping side kick, spin back kick to the face.

• 1:57:18Speaker 00

  Oh, he nearly hit, he nearly hit me with one of those. He, he was very famous for his double back kicks.

• 1:57:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:57:24Speaker 00

  And then every now and again, he would hook it. And it was just like, he's, he's knocked people out in the points game. For it. And everyone's seen it like, and I remember the, I think it was the first time I fought him. And I was young, but I had a reputation. He's the, he was the guy like over in America that had a reputation. And you know, we've, we've collided. Um, I was like, I don't care who this guy is, man. I'm just, I was feeling myself. I was killing everybody for ages. I remember faking, like moving, moving, moving around, moving around, faking, faking, got him in the corner. I was like, oh, perfect. Boom, blitz. Same thing. I was like, something's off. Boom, did this.

• 1:58:02Speaker 00

  But both, normally the first kick is light. Both stamps. I was like, shit.

• 1:58:11Speaker 00

  Not only was that fast, but that was powerful as well. And that just got into my head. This threw me, threw me right off. I didn't wanna commit to any of my, my strikes. And it just, it just from the first, from the first uh moment, he, he let it go. I was just like, yeah.

• 1:58:25Joe Rogan?

  He was very dangerous.

• 1:58:26Speaker 00

  Dangerous.

• 1:58:27Joe Rogan?

  Very dangerous.

• 1:58:28Speaker 00

  Dangerous, dangerous.

• 1:58:29Joe Rogan?

  And he was another guy that like, you know, proved that point that, that this is a completely different skill set. And if you don't know how to deal with that, you're in real, they took the elite guys, took like the Nicky Holdskins and the Joseph Volferinis, those guys to figures.

• 1:58:45Speaker 00

  Nicky was beast.

• 1:58:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, just chop the legs. And Nicky was so technical. He was tight, hands up high, chop the leg, chop the leg.

• 1:58:52Speaker 00

  He was a beast.

• 1:58:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, chopping the legs, man, is a totally different ballgame.

• 1:58:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:56Joe Rogan?

  Soon as the legs start getting chopped, you're like, oh.

• 1:58:58Speaker 00

  You can't bounce anymore. But that's the thing, it's weird, cause I started to utilize that as a way to win fights. Where not, not obviously taking the leg kicks, but only giving you that option. So everyone's like, yeah, but that's an awkward start. I was like, yeah, but when I stand in front of you like that, you don't think to do a punch. Cause I, I feel way too far away. So you're not doing a punch, you're not, the only thing you have is what's in front of you is a kick. So it's like, I got used to timing kicks as you're kicking, collision, going in, or just pulling just off and then putting my foot in slightly deeper. And then just pulling off and then putting my foot in slightly deeper. Now I know I can pull this trigger when I'm ready. And you're getting more and more demoralized because you're not landing.

• 1:59:43Speaker 00

  You're throwing a kick, he's swinging around, you're like, ah.

• 1:59:45Joe Rogan?

  And there's only one thing available.

• 1:59:47Speaker 00

  And there's only one thing available.

• 1:59:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:48Speaker 00

  So I have to keep pressing that same button.

• 1:59:49Joe Rogan?

  Right. And the idea of you shooting on.

• 1:59:52Speaker 00

  It feels far.

• 1:59:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, too far.

• 1:59:54Speaker 00

  It feels very far.

• 1:59:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the Hamzat thing. It's like Hamzat shoots from the middle of the fucking octagon. That guy's got a crazy shot. That shot he hit Whitaker with and the one he with, uh, who was it? Oh, the Leech. When he picked up the Leech, he picked him up, carried him over to Dana White. And it's like, I kill everybody. Like, whoa, this is nuts. He was another guy that like, how the fuck are you making one seventy?

• 2:00:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, he's a big, he's a big boy.

• 2:00:20Joe Rogan?

  When I first met him, I was like, what are you talking about? You're a hundred and seventy?

• 2:00:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, big boy.

• 2:00:24Joe Rogan?

  I fucking hate the weight cutting. I hate it. I hate it with a passion. I hate it more than anything in the sport. I think it should be eliminated, but it's too late.

• 2:00:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:32Joe Rogan?

  I don't think, I think people should get down to a healthy weight and fight at the healthiest weight, whatever the hell that is.

• 2:00:38Speaker 00

  Do you think there would be a way to combat that?

• 2:00:41Joe Rogan?

  Not at this point.

• 2:00:42Speaker 00

  Obviously in boxing, they got the, you have to weigh in multiple times now?

• 2:00:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, some fighters make you do that, like Gervonta Davis. He made, uh, Ryan Garcia do that. He wanted to make sure that Brian Garcia didn't rehydrate.

• 2:00:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:00:54Joe Rogan?

  Mayweather did that to Canelo too. It's just a G move.

• 2:00:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's small. That's when you're near the A side.

• 2:00:59Joe Rogan?

  You're the smaller, you're the A side. You're like, yeah, yeah, I'll fight you, but you gotta weigh one forty-three when you get in that fucking ring, bitch.

• 2:01:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:01:06Joe Rogan?

  Guys will take that fight for that, you know, big paycheck, but it's not a good move.

• 2:01:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:01:11Joe Rogan?

  Um, but I just think that it's legalized cheating.

• 2:01:16Joe Rogan?

  I just think that it's cheating. You're not, like, if you're a hundred and fifty-five pound champion, but you weigh a hundred and ninety pounds. That's kind of crazy.

• 2:01:24Speaker 00

  I, I agree, and if I didn't have to weight cut, because if you don't join in, you're fighting monsters.

• 2:01:29Joe Rogan?

  That's true, but they would have to fight monsters too. Everybody would have to fight a person that weighs what they actually weigh.

• 2:01:35Speaker 00

  No, I, I agree with that, but I'm just saying with the fact that people are weight cutting.

• 2:01:39Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:01:39Speaker 00

  When I got to this arena, I'd prefer to just for what I weighed at.

• 2:01:43Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:01:44Speaker 00

  But because everyone's weight cutting, I was like, oh, you have to.

• 2:01:48Joe Rogan?

  You have to.

• 2:01:48Speaker 00

  You have to do it.

• 2:01:49Joe Rogan?

  Look, like, when you were fighting at one seventy, for people that understand, I'm short. That's thirty pounds less than me.

• 2:01:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:01:57Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:01:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:01:59Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. Like, that's just a giant advantage that you can't give up.

• 2:02:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:03Joe Rogan?

  And when you're doing that across every single weight class and every single world championship, the last guy that I know that didn't cut weight was Frankie Edgar when he was a hundred and fifty-five pound champ. When Frankie Edgar was a one hundred and fifty-five pound champ, he weighed one fifty-five, and he moved like a ghost, he was all over the place, he was fast as fuck, he had great endurance. His, his recovery was incredible, because he could take a great shot, because he wasn't dehydrated like everybody else was.

• 2:02:29Speaker 00

  That's the thing, I actually feel great at middleweight.

• 2:02:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. We definitely have the size for it.

• 2:02:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I'm naturally that way, but it's weird though, because people's body types, because they are cutting, they're still slightly stock, not necessarily as frame-wise as big as me, but they're just slightly stockier, and obviously, as you say, the guys that will want to come in and just go, yeah.

• 2:02:49Joe Rogan?

  They just want to clinch and get you down. It's a giant advantage.

• 2:02:52Speaker 00

  It's an advantage if they're going to be that much heavier than me as well, moving people, like, even when, um, uh, in my last fight, when I got taken down in the, in the, in the last round,

• 2:03:05Speaker 00

  trying to, uh, against Kanane, trying to move him, I was just like, Jesus, this is...

• 2:03:09Joe Rogan?

  Kanane is huge.

• 2:03:10Speaker 00

  He's a big, he's a big boy.

• 2:03:12Joe Rogan?

  And he's one of the only guys that's got KOs in three different weight classes.

• 2:03:15Speaker 00

  From heavyweight, light heavyweight, middleweight.

• 2:03:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, beast. He's huge for one eighty-five. But it's another perfect example, and I think, look, there's something to be said for the ritual of doing it for a lot of fighters. It means a lot, and you could choose to cut less so that you're more healthy the day of the fight. But everyone kind of concedes you have to cut something.

• 2:03:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:03:36Joe Rogan?

  And I just don't think that's smart. Twenty-four hours before a fight in a cage.

• 2:03:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:03:41Joe Rogan?

  Why would you deplete your body purposely?

• 2:03:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:03:44Joe Rogan?

  Because it's basically like getting drunk.

• 2:03:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:03:46Joe Rogan?

  Really is, like you're dehydrating the shit out of your body.

• 2:03:49Speaker 00

  Seeing people just look, look a mess.

• 2:03:50Joe Rogan?

  And you only have thirty, five, forty hours to rehydrate? Between the weigh-ins and the time you're actually gonna fight? If, if you're lucky, a forty hours?

• 2:03:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:03:59Joe Rogan?

  That's not enough time.

• 2:04:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I can do it. I don't care to do it. I can do it. I just, I agree with you and I just, it would be if everybody, if everybody was like, yeah, okay, let's all just do it at our weights.

• 2:04:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, imagine if people did dehydrate and rehydrated and we started calling it cheating.

• 2:04:16Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:04:16Joe Rogan?

  You know what I mean? I mean, it would be if people got caught and they looked at it the same way people look at people getting caught with steroids.

• 2:04:22Speaker 00

  Fair, fair, fair.

• 2:04:23Joe Rogan?

  Because there's, the reality is right now, you can't do it because of the weight class limitations. There's too many weight classes where like, where you're at. So eighty-five to two oh five, that's nuts.

• 2:04:33Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:04:34Joe Rogan?

  That's twenty pounds. That's so.

• 2:04:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:37Joe Rogan?

  And for maybe people who've never grappled, they don't know what that means, or never been punched.

• 2:04:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:41Joe Rogan?

  They don't know what that means, but that's a giant amount of fucking horsepower.

• 2:04:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:45Joe Rogan?

  And gravity on top of you.

• 2:04:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:47Joe Rogan?

  And so, if you're, if you've got weight classes at a, a reasonable space.

• 2:04:54Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:04:54Joe Rogan?

  Like, I feel like ten pounds is good.

• 2:04:57Speaker 00

  Hmm, hmm.

• 2:04:57Joe Rogan?

  I feel like every ten pounds, you go forty-five, fifty-five, sixty-five, seventy-five. And if you're in between, you either add muscle or you lose weight.

• 2:05:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:05Joe Rogan?

  You'd stop lifting as much weights and do more cardio. You'll get down to that, right?

• 2:05:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, naturally, yeah.

• 2:05:09Joe Rogan?

  But that's what you are, which you actually are. And if we did that, I, there would have to be some sort of a hydration thing where they just show up and weigh you.

• 2:05:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:19Joe Rogan?

  Like, you know, like people show up and drug test you now.

• 2:05:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:22Joe Rogan?

  Like Drug Free Sport, they'll just knock on your door, "Hey, Venom, what's up?

• 2:05:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:26Joe Rogan?

  Can you pee in this?

• 2:05:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:27Joe Rogan?

  Let's, uh, let's talk.

• 2:05:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that makes sense to me.

• 2:05:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, just show up. What do you weigh? Get on the scale.

• 2:05:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:33Joe Rogan?

  And then you get on the scale, one ninety?

• 2:05:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:34Joe Rogan?

  Bro, you're a bantamweight. This is crazy.

• 2:05:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:37Joe Rogan?

  Cause there's dudes that are out there doing that.

• 2:05:38Speaker 00

  Oh, no, a hundred percent.

• 2:05:39Joe Rogan?

  We always talk about Gleason Tebow. When Gleason Tebow was a hundred fifty-five pounders, bro, he looked like a bodybuilder.

• 2:05:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:47Joe Rogan?

  He looked like you weighed two hundred pounds when he got into the cage. It was nuts, man.

• 2:05:51Speaker 00

  The rehydration. I've seen people cut ridiculous amounts and then, yeah, like you said, the way they rehydrate.

• 2:05:55Joe Rogan?

  It's terrible, but it's also a lie. You're not a hundred fifty-five pounds. You're two hundred pounds.

• 2:06:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:06:00Joe Rogan?

  Like, that's what you actually weigh. And I understand why you do it. I understand why everybody does it, but. There's gotta be a better way.

• 2:06:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:09Joe Rogan?

  The worst I ever saw was Travis Luder when he fought Anderson Silva.

• 2:06:13Speaker 00

  I don't remember that one.

• 2:06:14Joe Rogan?

  He lost, but he had Anderson down. Travis Luder was an elite black belt.

• 2:06:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:18Joe Rogan?

  And he was in the Ultimate Fighter.

• 2:06:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:20Joe Rogan?

  Wins the Ultimate Fighter, I mean dominates everybody, dominates people on the ground. Everybody that I talked to trained with him was like, guy's on a whole nother level as far as jiu jitsu.

• 2:06:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:28Joe Rogan?

  And um, the day of the weigh in, he can't make the weight, man. And he's, he's so dehydrated that his lips are cracked.

• 2:06:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I see.

• 2:06:37Joe Rogan?

  And he's not walking to the scale, he's shuffling.

• 2:06:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:40Joe Rogan?

  He's just, and I'm watching him, and he missed the first time, and then this is like one of the second or third time that he tried to make weight, and he eventually didn't make weight.

• 2:06:47Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:06:48Joe Rogan?

  So even if he beat Anderson, he wouldn't have won the title.

• 2:06:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:51Joe Rogan?

  But bro, he had him down, and he was on top of him in the beginning of the round, and for anybody that's ever roll with Travis, if he was healthy, and he has you down on the ground, like that's, you're, you're fucks Bill.

• 2:07:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:02Joe Rogan?

  That guy's good.

• 2:07:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:04Joe Rogan?

  He was really good, but it was just the weight was way too much.

• 2:07:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:07Joe Rogan?

  He was just drained.

• 2:07:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:10Joe Rogan?

  Then 24 hours later, you're supposed to fight

• 2:07:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:12Joe Rogan?

  one of the greatest fighters of all time.

• 2:07:13Speaker 00

  And it depletes your, your, the, the, the liquid around your, your brain as well, so you're taking shots, you're not gonna take it as well.

• 2:07:19Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:07:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's a lot. Yeah, I agree, I agree.

• 2:07:22Joe Rogan?

  You're tired, your endurance sucks, everything's all fucked up.

• 2:07:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:07:25Joe Rogan?

  Everything's all fucked up.

• 2:07:26Speaker 00

  But that's why I get down very close to my weight, cause I, on fight week, I'm very low.

• 2:07:32Joe Rogan?

  Like, what do you weigh? If you're fighting 185, what are you weighing, fight week?

• 2:07:35Speaker 00

  185 is easier though, so 190.

• 2:07:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's great.

• 2:07:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, like I, I don't.

• 2:07:41Joe Rogan?

  What about 170, when you're at 170?

• 2:07:44Speaker 00

  I get down to probably about 182, 183.

• 2:07:49Joe Rogan?

  Not that bad.

• 2:07:49Speaker 00

  Not that bad, and then cut, and then cut down from there.

• 2:07:51Joe Rogan?

  That's not that bad.

• 2:07:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't, I don't, again, I don't like to overstress myself.

• 2:07:55Joe Rogan?

  Pereira weighed in at 185 and fought at 220.

• 2:07:59Speaker 00

  Massive.

• 2:08:00Joe Rogan?

  Fought at 220.

• 2:08:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:08:01Joe Rogan?

  Weighed in at 85, fought at 220.

• 2:08:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, like you said, that's, that's a lot.

• 2:08:07Joe Rogan?

  That's insane.

• 2:08:08Speaker 00

  That's a lot.

• 2:08:09Joe Rogan?

  That's insane.

• 2:08:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:08:11Joe Rogan?

  That's so much fucking weight. And what does that do to you?

• 2:08:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. I've seen people, I can't even remember what fire, it was in Bellator. And his, he was banging the sauna to get out and his coach was holding the door.

• 2:08:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 2:08:24Speaker 00

  You need five more minutes.

• 2:08:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:08:26Speaker 00

  And the guy is kicking the door like, bump, and he's like, I'm never doing that. I don't ever wanna feel like that.

• 2:08:33Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy. So many guys blackout.

• 2:08:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:36Speaker 00

  I've seen people passing out and stuff, yeah.

• 2:08:38Joe Rogan?

  Brian Ortega was just in an interview talking about that. He essentially like, almost like, what, how did he describe it? It was like thirty minutes where he was like in real trouble.

• 2:08:48Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 2:08:48Joe Rogan?

  For his last weight cut.

• 2:08:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's like, it's just, he just got really wrecked. People blacked out before.

• 2:08:56Speaker 00

  There was a lady that fell off the stage, uh, fell off the scales, wasn't it? She, she stepped back off the scales and then just, her legs just went.

• 2:09:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I don't remember. Thirty minute coma.

• 2:09:06Speaker 00

  Oh, sugar.

• 2:09:07Joe Rogan?

  Due to his weight cut for Aljamain Sterling. Holy shit.

• 2:09:10Speaker 00

  But he missed, he keeps, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, it's too much for, I don't know why, why doesn't he just go up?

• 2:09:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the problem is the guys at fifty-five are jacked. I think he just, he dialed in his diet, though. He looks a lot thinner now.

• 2:09:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:23Joe Rogan?

  Like he showed, pull up some of those photos he's got on his Instagram.

• 2:09:25Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:09:26Joe Rogan?

  He's been taking photos lately of like, he just, he realized like he can never do that again. So he's lost a lot of body fat.

• 2:09:30Speaker 00

  Oh, that's good. That's good. I think sometimes that is the, the discipline of it as well.

• 2:09:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, look at him now. Look at him now. Way leaner, way leaner. Big difference. That's where he needs to be.

• 2:09:41Speaker 00

  He hasn't been like that in ages.

• 2:09:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That's where he needs to be.

• 2:09:43Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 2:09:44Joe Rogan?

  You know, I used to live that good life.

• 2:09:46Speaker 00

  I was the same. Even when you said about like, uh, having like, random weight checks, it'd make me consider certain burgers sometimes.

• 2:09:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but they would have to give you an out of shape clause.

• 2:09:58Speaker 00

  No, of course, of course.

• 2:09:59Joe Rogan?

  Give you like ten, fifteen pounds in between fights.

• 2:10:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:02Joe Rogan?

  But then, once you start training, they should be able to randomly show up during those six weeks and go, alright, Michael, get on the scale.

• 2:10:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:08Joe Rogan?

  One seventy-four. Okay, good, good to go. Good to go. We're inside of six pounds. Cause what you actually cut, what you're saying at eighty-five is perfect, in my opinion. That's nothing.

• 2:10:16Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't go, I don't like to be.

• 2:10:18Joe Rogan?

  Five pounds is just a good weight sauna session. It's not that much. You're not losing a ton of weight. You're not killing yourself.

• 2:10:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:25Joe Rogan?

  Maybe you ride the bike for a half hour. Like, what do you do?

• 2:10:28Speaker 00

  I literally do a thirty minute jog, and it's like really low with a sauna suit on. Uh, straight away, I take that off, go straight into the sauna, fifteen minutes, then rap, fifteen minutes and rap and I'm done.

• 2:10:41Joe Rogan?

  See, that's perfect.

• 2:10:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:42Joe Rogan?

  That's actually probably therapeutic.

• 2:10:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what I mean, it's not, it's not.

• 2:10:45Joe Rogan?

  It's not bad for you at all, that's probably actually very good for you. Cause you're giving your body all this recovery from the sauna and you're getting a nice little cardiovascular workout, but nothing crazy.

• 2:10:54Speaker 00

  Crazy at all.

• 2:10:55Joe Rogan?

  Giving yourself a lot of heat shock proteins, you're not killing yourself.

• 2:10:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:58Joe Rogan?

  But there's guys, man, I've seen them, and they look like, okay, here's the worst one, the worst one, other than, other than Travis, Travis was the worst, cause I watched him shuffle backstage, but the visuals is TJ Dillashaw when he went down to Flyweight. He fought Henry Cejudo at Flyweight and he looked like a dead man.

• 2:11:18Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, I remember this.

• 2:11:19Joe Rogan?

  He looked like a hostage that had just gotten released and had not been fed.

• 2:11:23Speaker 00

  Fed for ages, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:25Joe Rogan?

  He looked fucking terrible.

• 2:11:26Speaker 00

  Cause he gets quite jacked as well.

• 2:11:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he fucked up.

• 2:11:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:30Joe Rogan?

  He fucked up, look at, look at what he looked like on the left.

• 2:11:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:33Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. That picture right there.

• 2:11:36Speaker 00

  He's quite, he's quite big there.

• 2:11:37Joe Rogan?

  Right, but that picture, that picture, that picture is fucking crazy, that's a prisoner of war.

• 2:11:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:11:44Joe Rogan?

  You know what I'm saying, like that's not a guy, look at what he looks like now.

• 2:11:46Speaker 00

  That's what I mean.

• 2:11:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, now he's fucking tanked, now he's a tank, that's, the one on the right is not fair, cause that's after he retired.

• 2:11:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, yeah, he's finished now, but yeah.

• 2:11:53Joe Rogan?

  A buck sixty-five now, he's fucking jacked.

• 2:11:56Speaker 00

  He's massive.

• 2:11:57Joe Rogan?

  But he was, uh, he's another guy that doesn't get the credit that he deserves, when he fought Hen and Berao.

• 2:12:02Speaker 00

  I love this style.

• 2:12:02Joe Rogan?

  Pure flow style, pure flow.

• 2:12:05Speaker 00

  But it's, it's, it's the level, uh, changes of the up and, you don't know where he's attacking, it's not, it's not linear, it's not just, I'm going here or I'm going here.

• 2:12:13Joe Rogan?

  Switching stances constantly, yeah.

• 2:12:16Speaker 00

  I used to love watching his style.

• 2:12:17Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever talked to Ludwig?

• 2:12:18Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:12:19Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you should meet Dwayne Bang Ludwig.

• 2:12:22Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:12:22Joe Rogan?

  And talk to him, cause Dwayne is the one who coached him in that style.

• 2:12:26Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:12:26Joe Rogan?

  Dwayne, who was an elite kickboxer himself and fought in the UFC, at one point in time had the fastest ever knockout in the UFC, at a, I think it was a five or six second knockout in the UFC, he was one of the fastest ever, to step back, one right hand, bam. But Dwayne was a beast, but maybe even better than he is as a fighter, he is as a coach.

• 2:12:45Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 2:12:45Joe Rogan?

  And he doesn't have that style, this is what's crazy, he devised that style, so this is Dwayne, watch this.

• 2:12:55Joe Rogan?

  There it is.

• 2:12:56Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 2:12:57Joe Rogan?

  So you could call it six seconds. I don't even think it was six.

• 2:12:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, no.

• 2:13:00Joe Rogan?

  I don't even think it was six. But the point is, Dwayne's style, like he learned from Bas Rutten and, you know, it's like Dutch kickboxing style.

• 2:13:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:09Joe Rogan?

  Um, but he realized, like, Dwayne is like this consummate studier of fighting. And he realized that the best way to fight is to overwhelm them with possibilities and options, but have a whole system of how to do that.

• 2:13:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:24Joe Rogan?

  So his system is all about switching stances and combinations while you're switching and turning and moving, but he's got it mapped out.

• 2:13:30Speaker 00

  Nice, nice, nice.

• 2:13:31Joe Rogan?

  The dude came over to my place with like a binder.

• 2:13:33Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 2:13:34Joe Rogan?

  Like this thick binder of techniques.

• 2:13:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:36Joe Rogan?

  And he's full on egghead with this shit. And TJ and him just locked up.

• 2:13:40Speaker 00

  Locked in, love it.

• 2:13:41Joe Rogan?

  And the fruits of that labor was the Henen Barao fight.

• 2:13:44Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:13:44Joe Rogan?

  Go, go to that fight, Jamie. So, cause I feel like this was one of the finest championship performances at the time. I thought it was the best I'd ever seen.

• 2:13:51Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:13:52Joe Rogan?

  Of a guy who was an underdog going into a fight.

• 2:13:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:13:55Joe Rogan?

  Henen Barao at that time, a lot of people thought was the pound for pound best.

• 2:13:58Speaker 00

  Best, yeah.

• 2:13:58Joe Rogan?

  It was him and Jose Aldo. They were talking about those two guys together.

• 2:14:01Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:14:02Joe Rogan?

  And TJ just went in there and worked him.

• 2:14:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:04Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it was like a sparring match.

• 2:14:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:07Joe Rogan?

  He went in there super loose and just moving around and started cracking him.

• 2:14:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It's a fun watch, though.

• 2:14:12Joe Rogan?

  Just get me in there.

• 2:14:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:14:15Joe Rogan?

  So, but this is like Henen Barao was the boogeyman.

• 2:14:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:14:18Joe Rogan?

  Everybody was scared of this dude.

• 2:14:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:20Joe Rogan?

  He was so fucking good.

• 2:14:21Speaker 00

  Look how he starts, look how he starts.

• 2:14:23Joe Rogan?

  Woo. Woo, stepping with an uppercut, just movement, constant movement, overwhelming you.

• 2:14:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:29Joe Rogan?

  And look, always on the tips of his toes, moving around. He didn't back up at all and never gave Henen Barao the chance to get some momentum going.

• 2:14:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:37Joe Rogan?

  And at the end, when he eventually stopped him, I mean, was just a fucking ruthless combination when he took him out of there. But like, if you knew how difficult it is to be, look at that right hand, right off the bat in the first round.

• 2:14:50Speaker 00

  Beautiful.

• 2:14:51Joe Rogan?

  At this point, Henen Barao's like, oh no.

• 2:14:53Speaker 00

  I'm in problems.

• 2:14:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because nobody had thought that TJ was gonna be capable of doing this.

• 2:14:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:58Joe Rogan?

  TJ, you know, was a really good up and coming fighter, a really good contender, but this was his finest performance and it was in a world championship fight.

• 2:15:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:15:09Joe Rogan?

  Against a guy that everybody thought was the man.

• 2:15:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:12Joe Rogan?

  And TJ just beat that ass. And if you go like further, see if you can go to the actual stoppage, Jamie, like further in the fight. When he, like at this point in time, TJ's just styling on him.

• 2:15:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:15:24Joe Rogan?

  Just standing right in front of him and popping him.

• 2:15:26Speaker 00

  Oh, beautiful jab.

• 2:15:27Joe Rogan?

  Not getting hit, staying right in range, dropping down.

• 2:15:32Speaker 00

  Head movement.

• 2:15:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, oh, look at that head kick. Oh my goodness.

• 2:15:35Speaker 00

  Beautiful.

• 2:15:36Joe Rogan?

  Look at this, I mean, and it's artistic. It's fucking beautiful, man.

• 2:15:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love it.

• 2:15:41Joe Rogan?

  It's a beautiful stoppage.

• 2:15:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:42Joe Rogan?

  Like, one of the best championship-winning performances in the history of the sport.

• 2:15:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, easy.

• 2:15:47Joe Rogan?

  In the history of the sport.

• 2:15:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, beautiful.

• 2:15:49Joe Rogan?

  Woo, but that dude unfortunately had two bum shoulders.

• 2:15:53Speaker 00

  Oh, is that what it was?

• 2:15:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, forever. He had, even when he won the title, his shoulders were fucked. He had torn supraspinatuses in both of his shoulders.

• 2:16:02Speaker 00

  I've done one on this side.

• 2:16:03Joe Rogan?

  It got to the point where, he never got it fixed. It got to the point where they're just popping out. So by the time he fought Aljamain Sterling.

• 2:16:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's just like, I ain't got nothing.

• 2:16:10Joe Rogan?

  He told the referee in the locker room, my shoulder's gonna go out of socket.

• 2:16:13Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah, I heard about it. Just let him put it back in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's crazy to go in there knowing that that's...

• 2:16:19Joe Rogan?

  So now, he's, he had to retire and he had multiple operations on his shoulder and he can't even reach over his head. He gets his arm that far. Like, that's how fucked he is now. Three months ago, he said he's gotta get another one.

• 2:16:30Speaker 00

  Oh, oh yeah, you can see, jeez.

• 2:16:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, get another surgery. They're gonna cut off the head of my humerus and turn the head into a plastic plunger.

• 2:16:37Speaker 00

  Ah, that sounds like a bit too much.

• 2:16:39Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 2:16:40Speaker 00

  I hate doing this, like, surgery for anything.

• 2:16:43Joe Rogan?

  He has the worst shoulder injuries I've ever seen. I know there's been a lot, like, you're...

• 2:16:48Speaker 00

  Was that from before?

• 2:16:49Joe Rogan?

  It was from wrestling.

• 2:16:50Speaker 00

  Oh, it's from wrestling, that's all.

• 2:16:51Joe Rogan?

  I think it's just from having torn shoulders and just trying to rehab them and not getting them surgically fixed.

• 2:16:56Speaker 00

  Okay, okay.

• 2:16:57Joe Rogan?

  Like, if you, you can have some things loose in there and strengthen everything else up and kinda be functional, but not if you're gonna be a world championship fighter.

• 2:17:05Speaker 00

  Fair, fair, fair.

• 2:17:06Joe Rogan?

  And the problem with a lot of those things is, once it tears and pulls back, you can't get it back in place.

• 2:17:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17:11Joe Rogan?

  So then you have really complicated surgeries where they have to take a piece of your hamstring and stick it up there or some other part of your body and reconstruct what was supposed to be there. And then you have to slowly build range of motion into it. Like, he got to the point where he was too tough.

• 2:17:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17:27Joe Rogan?

  For the injuries that he had. Where he should've probably got them fixed immediately and maybe could've prolonged his career.

• 2:17:32Speaker 00

  I feel like, it just sounds like he just, he went back in, in terms of getting back into training a bit too quickly. So I feel like the rehab can work. I know you, obviously, there's certain things you're gonna need surgery for. But there's a lot of my stuff, I've managed to bring it back.

• 2:17:46Joe Rogan?

  I don't think he had surgery until after he was done fighting.

• 2:17:49Speaker 00

  Oh, so he didn't even have surgery?

• 2:17:50Joe Rogan?

  No, he had surgery on one of his knees, because he blew his knee out in the Sanhagen fight. Or I should say Sanhagen, after talking with Sanhagen about what happens in that fifty fifty position, Sanhagen blew his knee out.

• 2:18:02Speaker 00

  Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:03Joe Rogan?

  So he, he put him in a position where if TJ didn't give in, he was gonna get his knee fucked up, and he chose to get his knee fucked up. But that was Corey putting him in that position. Um, so he had to get an ACL reconstruction, so that, but I don't think he got the shoulder surgeries until after he was done fighting. He might have gotten one and then tried to fight again.

• 2:18:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:18:22Joe Rogan?

  But the problem is, like, his shoulders were fucked, man. They were really fucked.

• 2:18:26Speaker 00

  But that doesn't look fixed. Like, for you to be having to...

• 2:18:32Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, no, no. It doesn't look fixed, but I think that's all they could do with it. I think it was...

• 2:18:36Speaker 00

  That bad?

• 2:18:37Joe Rogan?

  I think it was that bad.

• 2:18:37Speaker 04

  I'm looking at an article from right after that fight. It says his third shoulder surgery since twenty nineteen.

• 2:18:42Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so that's when he started getting them. And when was that fight? When was the last fight that he had? That was like twenty twenty-three?

• 2:18:48Speaker 04

  The Aljo fight, I think, was twenty-two?

• 2:18:50Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 2:18:51Speaker 04

  UFC two eighty?

• 2:18:52Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:18:54Joe Rogan?

  Is it twenty twenty-two?

• 2:18:55Speaker 04

  That's when this article started.

• 2:18:56Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so he had those shoulder surgeries, and then I know he's had a ton since. And since, you know, like, you look on his Instagram page, it's like, every few months, it's him in a sling. Well, here we go, try it again.

• 2:19:09Speaker 00

  I know guys that are like, surgery, surgery, surgery, surgery, and they, it never seems to, I've never, unless I'm forced to, I don't ever really go down a surgery. I always try and figure it out a different way. Like, I've had, weird enough, it was both my shoulders, but one was, uh, supraspinatus, the other one was rotator cuff, and kind of like some lat injury as well. But just slowly, to the point where I couldn't do a push-up. When, in my last couple of, was it Bellator fights? Yeah, my last few Bellator fights, I couldn't do a push-up. I could still hit in certain angles, so certain angles I was fine, but I had no strength in that direction.

• 2:19:44Joe Rogan?

  While you were fighting?

• 2:19:45Speaker 00

  While I was fighting, yeah, yeah.

• 2:19:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh, no.

• 2:19:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, so literally trying to get that, my, my arms would just start shaking. I couldn't...

• 2:19:52Joe Rogan?

  Why didn't you do something about that before you fought?

• 2:19:54Speaker 00

  I was doing, I was doing like rehab, I was like, as long as I can hit you, I'm fine, like, uh...

• 2:19:59Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy, going into a fight with that kind of a major handicap.

• 2:20:04Speaker 00

  I've had worse, but...

• 2:20:06Joe Rogan?

  What's the worst?

• 2:20:08Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't say it as an excuse, so, but the, the day

• 2:20:14Speaker 00

  before my Ian Gary fight, I couldn't stand on my left foot.

• 2:20:19Joe Rogan?

  Why not?

• 2:20:20Speaker 00

  I, I, up till today, I don't understand it. I had, um, the, the UFC PI working everything. They did shock therapy, they did acupuncture, they were doing everything. And I, literally, I had, I had a, um, if you see the fight, I literally had, uh, ankle supports on. And they said, you're allowed the ankle supports. You can't really have it taped, but I had it taped under the ankle support. But obviously, if I, I couldn't just do one ankle.

• 2:20:47Joe Rogan?

  So you had to do both of them.

• 2:20:48Speaker 00

  So I had to do both of them. And, um, yeah, just, the day before the fight, I'm not sure if I did anything when I was, uh, cutting weight, like twinged it or something, but I don't remember anything distinct happening, but couldn't walk on my foot.

• 2:21:02Joe Rogan?

  So it was your ankle? You twisted your ankle?

• 2:21:03Speaker 00

  It was my ankle or something. And they were working it, literally, I was trying, I was in.

• 2:21:07Joe Rogan?

  And you don't, you don't have a single instance where it went?

• 2:21:11Speaker 00

  I don't remember anything.

• 2:21:12Joe Rogan?

  All of a sudden, it just hurt?

• 2:21:13Speaker 00

  Going, it just started, it, it hurt the night before. It hurt the night before, so on the weigh-in, it hurt. And I was walking around and I was like, it's hurting, but it, it didn't feel like anything drastic. And overnight, it just got worse and worse and worse and worse.

• 2:21:25Joe Rogan?

  Probably exaggerated by the weight cut, right?

• 2:21:27Speaker 00

  Maybe, yeah. And then, and, and literally the next day, uh, in the morning, we had to go to the, uh, uh, PI. Uh, I was, my coach was like, bro, if you can't bounce here now, I'm gonna have to pull your fat. And I was like, there's no way I can get pulled from this fight. It's not happening. I was like, it's not happening.

• 2:21:43Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:21:44Speaker 00

  And I went out there and he's like, bouncing, I'm trying to adjust myself and, and bounce. And he had it, they, they did the tape that it was, he was gonna use for the fight. And he said he'll come in and do it again just before the fight. And yeah, it was, I was just like.

• 2:21:58Joe Rogan?

  Damn.

• 2:21:58Speaker 00

  Adjusting, adjusting. And I, obviously, I had a.

• 2:22:01Joe Rogan?

  Still had a great performance.

• 2:22:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I had, I had my, so my guy, uh, my videographer, uh, Kishan, uh, he filmed, he was, we're doing a documentary, so he's filmed all of it as well. I was kind of like, I'll wait till it comes out as, as known, but not, like, not even to say as an excuse, because I was able to adrenaline, just, I'm, I'm in it now and fight. But there were certain things I was being cautious of and not wanting to do. But yeah, it was just irritating. But I've had, that's probably the worst in terms of how close to the fight it was, because it's the day before. I've had injuries in the build up and I'm like, as long as I can throw a punch and throw a kick and make it happen.

• 2:22:43Speaker 00

  He just.

• 2:22:44Joe Rogan?

  That's the thing that people don't understand when they watch fights, like sometimes guys, this is one of the things about the rematch this weekend. Ankaliya versus Pereira, is that Pereira supposedly had a fucked up left hand and rotavirus before the last fight.

• 2:22:56Speaker 00

  I believe it, he looked off.

• 2:22:58Joe Rogan?

  He looked off.

• 2:22:58Speaker 00

  He definitely didn't look himself.

• 2:23:00Joe Rogan?

  But Ankaliya looked really good.

• 2:23:03Speaker 00

  A hundred percent, yeah, I don't want to take anything away from Ankaliya.

• 2:23:05Joe Rogan?

  When someone looks off, I'm always like, it's like Roy Jones. Like people go, Roy Jones didn't fight anybody. No, no, no, Roy Jones fought everybody, but he made him look like there were nobody because they were fighting Roy Jones. It's like, so is that what's going on? Like, is Ankaliya that good? And so, we don't know, so we gotta see him fight again.

• 2:23:22Speaker 00

  I'd only say no, just because towards the fifth round, it looked like Pereira could do some stuff. Like, it's like, okay, you're actually now landing that calf kick a bit more now, you're actually starting to do, it's like, why didn't you start like that?

• 2:23:32Joe Rogan?

  He didn't have the gas.

• 2:23:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, so.

• 2:23:35Joe Rogan?

  If you've got rotavirus, your gas is very low and probably your energy level feels very low.

• 2:23:39Speaker 00

  He's trying to be, he's conserving energy and so, so this is what makes this fight so much more interesting. Because hopefully, he's had the camp he is. Ankaliya hopefully comes in looking exactly the same way he did that last fight.

• 2:23:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, or better.

• 2:23:52Speaker 00

  Or better.

• 2:23:53Joe Rogan?

  He's gonna be better, because he's gonna be the champion. I think there's a thing that happens, and Daniel Cormier has expressed this too, it's like a thirty percent bump. When you become the champion, you just got, you got thirty, you know, like when you were talking about when you won that tournament, and also you were better.

• 2:24:06Speaker 00

  Boom, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:07Joe Rogan?

  I think there's that when you get the championship. Hopefully, you're gonna get to experience that.

• 2:24:11Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 2:24:11Joe Rogan?

  You'll get to experience that bump. But this is, you know, I feel like. That's just, we're gonna have to see, and it's a very intriguing one.

• 2:24:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:24:21Joe Rogan?

  Because Pereira, if he hurt his left hand, that's the doom punch.

• 2:24:24Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 2:24:24Joe Rogan?

  That left hook is, that's death.

• 2:24:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:27Joe Rogan?

  That's the one, that's the one. If you look at his highlight reel, there's so many left hooks.

• 2:24:30Speaker 00

  When he catches people with that, even when he grazed like Jamar Hill.

• 2:24:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:34Speaker 00

  It was a, I still don't get it now, he grazed him.

• 2:24:37Joe Rogan?

  He's got a hell of a punch on him, man.

• 2:24:38Speaker 00

  And put him out.

• 2:24:40Joe Rogan?

  The Yuri Prohaska one at the end of the first round, Yuri was like, yo, and then he head kicks him in the beginning of the second. Yeah, he's got ferocious power.

• 2:24:49Speaker 00

  That head kick, that head kick was fast.

• 2:24:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:51Speaker 00

  That head kick was fast as well.

• 2:24:52Joe Rogan?

  Boy, I hope he's healthy, but I heard, I heard he's super heavy coming into this week.

• 2:24:57Speaker 00

  Oh, is he?

• 2:24:57Joe Rogan?

  I heard he's like 230 going into this week, yeah. For, for him.

• 2:25:02Speaker 00

  I guess he's got a lot to cut.

• 2:25:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, some guys can do it.

• 2:25:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:25:05Joe Rogan?

  I don't know what the fuck they're doing.

• 2:25:07Speaker 00

  Well, I guess if he was able to get to middleweight.

• 2:25:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, yeah.

• 2:25:10Speaker 00

  But also sometimes it makes you lazier as well, like, oh, I can do that.

• 2:25:14Joe Rogan?

  I can eat this.

• 2:25:15Speaker 00

  And then, yeah, and then you get close to the time, like, shit, it's a bit of work now.

• 2:25:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, he has talked about moving up.

• 2:25:20Speaker 00

  Again?

• 2:25:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and so has Ankaliya.

• 2:25:22Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, actually, he has, yeah, yeah.

• 2:25:23Joe Rogan?

  Ankaliya just said that recently, that he wants to defend the title a couple of times, then move up to heavyweight.

• 2:25:29Speaker 00

  I think he's a bit too small.

• 2:25:31Joe Rogan?

  Maybe, but if you put size on and he gives himself enough time, he's got the skill set, and Aspinall's gonna need some fucking challengers.

• 2:25:39Speaker 00

  But then does, yeah, fair, fair, fair.

• 2:25:41Joe Rogan?

  Unless Cyril Gahn beats him, right?

• 2:25:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, but then does he need, you know, does, I always say that the time that Jon Jones took off to get to heavyweight, does he need that kind of time? Because it takes a while to put on size like that, and actually it takes ages.

• 2:25:55Joe Rogan?

  Not when you're over in Russia.

• 2:25:57Speaker 00

  Fair.

• 2:26:00Speaker 00

  Enough said.

• 2:26:02Joe Rogan?

  Real difficult to get those fucking drug testing guys on a plane, and if they do, everybody knows when they're landing.

• 2:26:12Joe Rogan?

  Good luck going into the bathroom while those guys pee. You will accept glasses of urine. I will hand it to Vitaly, he handles it to you. This is clean urine.

• 2:26:28Joe Rogan?

  I'm not accusing him of doing that, but I know that, you know, for sure. Listen, I mean, there was always like the joke about guys going over to Thailand. Like, why are they going over to Thailand? It was good training and also really hard to get those USADA guys on a flight.

• 2:26:41Speaker 00

  Ah, I know that.

• 2:26:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a lot of speculation about that.

• 2:26:46Speaker 00

  I feel so ignorant to that kind of stuff. Like, I just don't, I just don't care enough because again, it's like, like I said, I don't really have like a schedule for anything. Even when I'm, even the good stuff, like the things you're supposed to be doing. I'm just like, eh, I'll just, I'll do it.

• 2:26:57Joe Rogan?

  So you're not like a supplement guy or?

• 2:26:59Speaker 00

  At all. I, I, I don't take protein shakes at all.

• 2:27:03Joe Rogan?

  Nothing?

• 2:27:03Speaker 00

  Nothing.

• 2:27:04Joe Rogan?

  Nothing? That's crazy.

• 2:27:05Speaker 00

  No, no, no, never, never been into it.

• 2:27:08Joe Rogan?

  Multivitamins?

• 2:27:09Speaker 00

  Vitamins, yeah, like, but again, I just forget to take them. Seriously, ADHD mind, I'm just like.

• 2:27:15Joe Rogan?

  You should have someone who makes like a little packet for you.

• 2:27:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I'm, I'm gonna, I'm getting my wife to do it, uh, uh, soon. Cause she's very into that. She's very into her fitness and stuff. She's a Pilates instructor. She's got her own Pilates app and stuff. And she's, she smartly, well, I don't even know if she even intended it that way, but she kind of blew up over COVID. Because she set up her app at that time and now everyone's at home.

• 2:27:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh, perfect timing.

• 2:27:43Speaker 00

  It's just perfect timing and she just blew up her app called Cloud Nine Collective and she does Pilates for women. But have you ever done Pilates yourself?

• 2:27:50Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I have.

• 2:27:51Speaker 00

  Bro, I, I did a video with her and she got her to train some MMA. And then I, she's like, okay, you come and do Pilates. She killed me.

• 2:27:59Joe Rogan?

  It's a lot more difficult than I thought.

• 2:28:00Speaker 00

  It's so much, but I didn't know.

• 2:28:02Joe Rogan?

  Weird muscles.

• 2:28:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:28:03Joe Rogan?

  Inside of your leg muscles?

• 2:28:04Speaker 00

  But that's what's actually helped with a lot of my, the rehab side. Cause it's, it's those muscles that we, we bypass, we go to the big muscles. Yeah, we wanna work these muscles and it's all those little ones that are not getting worked and those are the ones that injured.

• 2:28:15Joe Rogan?

  Stabilizers.

• 2:28:16Speaker 00

  Stabilizers.

• 2:28:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:18Speaker 00

  And I didn't know that, that it was, uh, a man, I forget his first name, but called something Pilates. Who started it for men in war to help recover guys in war to get them back out to, to, to, to war. But it's become such a female-led. Uh, sport.

• 2:28:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, that goes to speak about what I was talking about with the Russians and being technical. You know who was really into Pilates? Kovalev.

• 2:28:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:28:43Joe Rogan?

  Kovalev was the light heavyweight champion.

• 2:28:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:28:46Joe Rogan?

  The crusher.

• 2:28:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:28:47Joe Rogan?

  Fucking everybody up.

• 2:28:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:28:48Joe Rogan?

  He was big in the Pilates. He was doing Pilates all the time and everybody's like, wait a minute, what? That guy?

• 2:28:53Speaker 00

  The strength from you get can get from anywhere because like I said, those smaller muscles that help facilitate the bigger muscles.

• 2:28:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:59Speaker 00

  Like, it's, it's crazy.

• 2:29:02Joe Rogan?

  It's the same people that like look down on yoga, like bitch, go to a ninety minute hot yoga class.

• 2:29:07Speaker 00

  Okay, I did that, yeah.

• 2:29:08Joe Rogan?

  It's hard.

• 2:29:09Speaker 00

  And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go to a yoga, a hot yoga, you know, I was more thinking just it's nice to kind of get the sweat going and stuff. I remember the lady, she's like, oh yeah, go to, if you go to that side of the room, it's a bit, it's quite hot. Uh, so you know, if you're new to it, just go to this side of the room. And I was like, this woman, whatever, man.

• 2:29:25Joe Rogan?

  Get over that hot side.

• 2:29:26Speaker 00

  Let me go to that hot side. And she's like, oh, you know, if you feel, if you ever feel faint at all, you don't have to continue, you can kind of just sit down. I'm just like, what's she talking about? It's not that hot in here.

• 2:29:33Joe Rogan?

  Google me, lady.

• 2:29:34Speaker 00

  Bro.

• 2:29:37Speaker 00

  I think like three moves later, I slowly like just like moved the mat, like, I didn't want to go too far, I didn't want to. But I moved from the hot side of the room to like the middle ish closer to that side. And then there was one move I was just stretching and like I literally just got lightheaded. I was like, shit, she's, this is real.

• 2:29:56Joe Rogan?

  It's real.

• 2:29:56Speaker 00

  It's real.

• 2:29:57Joe Rogan?

  You see all those little old ladies in there and you think, oh, this is easy.

• 2:30:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:30:00Joe Rogan?

  It's difficult.

• 2:30:01Speaker 00

  But my, my, so my wife is strong as hell and I'm just like, yes, it has to be from that. Like she, and then when I do the session, I did a session with her this morning because she does some great sessions. Like when I do a session with her, like she, she kills it. And she's, I have to say, she's smart in his, in how she's done it as well because actually something I didn't know because she's, you know, on her app, she's done a cycle syncing specifically for women. I didn't realize that women have a, obviously I knew women twenty eight day cycle and men have a twenty, uh, twenty four day cycle.

• 2:30:35Speaker 00

  Twenty four hours and they have twenty eight days. So there's specific times that they should be training harder than they shouldn't be training or they should be doing this and should be doing that.

• 2:30:45Joe Rogan?

  Based on biometrics?

• 2:30:46Speaker 00

  Based on just.

• 2:30:47Joe Rogan?

  Time of the cycle of the month?

• 2:30:49Speaker 00

  Time of the cycle of the month, but again, in my head, I'm like, there's girls that are training our class and they have to train and do everything that we do. But we, we don't, we forget that we're just doing it based on that men can kind of just keep going.

• 2:31:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, women should think about that when they're scheduling fights.

• 2:31:03Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. That should be a thing. And as I said, she did it for clients when she, and I looked into it and I was like, oh, there's actually, this is, like even down to ice baths, great for you, not for women, though.

• 2:31:15Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:31:15Speaker 00

  Not all the time, but if you look into it, so there's specific times that's okay for them, but they shouldn't put their body under that kind of stress in the same way that we can.

• 2:31:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 2:31:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there's loads of, when I started looking at certain, there's loads of things that we forget that a lot of the times it's done from a male point of view.

• 2:31:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:31:33Speaker 00

  Forgetting that we, we're just different.

• 2:31:35Joe Rogan?

  I never would have thought about that in terms of their menstrual cycle and fighting, but of course.

• 2:31:40Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 2:31:41Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 2:31:42Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 2:31:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Wow.

• 2:31:44Speaker 00

  So, yeah, she's put it on so individuals can actually be like, her, it was scheduled and say, look, you're good, specifically for you are good to train intensely today or no, you need a very relaxed session and, and these videos that she's got hundreds of videos on a thing that will come up and be like, this is for you, this was for you, this was for you. But again, it just made me think about the women in MMA, like you said.

• 2:32:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:04Speaker 00

  It's the same thing scheduled in fight, even down to for them, weight cutting, you know, at a certain time, you're going for their luteal phase, they're holding weight.

• 2:32:11Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:32:12Speaker 00

  Like it's just, it's just different.

• 2:32:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:15Speaker 00

  We don't have any of those issues to worry about, but we get them to do the same structure as we would do.

• 2:32:21Joe Rogan?

  That's a very good point.

• 2:32:22Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? That it's, they, they should be more information about that even for the female fighters.

• 2:32:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they should actually be, like their coaches should be setting fights up entirely based on, I wonder like how many fights they would have won that they.

• 2:32:36Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 2:32:37Joe Rogan?

  Couldn't really train right.

• 2:32:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:32:38Joe Rogan?

  Cause they were cramping up.

• 2:32:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, which is different.

• 2:32:42Joe Rogan?

  When you, I've seen some videos of you, you do a lot of plyometric stuff as well, right? And is that something you've always done?

• 2:32:49Speaker 00

  Well, it's, it kind of comes with just, this is why I feel like I can bounce on my calves for ages just because of that constant and it seems to be a thing now. I didn't really understand it well enough, it was just kind of how I trained. And now.

• 2:33:01Joe Rogan?

  Did you train like that from the beginning?

• 2:33:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, just because of the points fighting style is is a lot of that shifting.

• 2:33:07Joe Rogan?

  Right. But did you but back then when you were doing that, were you just doing the martial arts training? Or were you doing?

• 2:33:13Speaker 00

  Martial arts training with with plyometrics. The reason why we did plyometrics more so is because we were also doing a lot of our katas. We did martial gymnastics, so the forms.

• 2:33:24Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 2:33:24Speaker 00

  So I had to learn how to do these crazy kicks and stuff in which I would then, this is why I would try seven twenties. Not because, uh, like, I just randomly decided to to to just throw it out today. It's because we were drilling them just for kata though.

• 2:33:39Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:33:40Speaker 00

  And I was like, well, if I can do it for kata, then I can, surely I can find the time to throw it when I'm fighting. And I would be that brave enough to try and attempt these things in in the points fighting world. And yeah, that's that, there's a couple of kicks that I keep telling people, a couple of kicks that even for me, I haven't even shown you what I can actually do yet. Like, there's a couple of kicks that I know I I can land. And it's usually it's easier on people that are well trained. So usually the better fighter, it's actually easier to hit them. Just because they are very traditional, they're very well trained. They have patterns that I can pick up on them like, ah, you're gonna step this way and you're gonna do that.

• 2:34:18Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 2:34:19Speaker 00

  And I always tell people, I call it attaching strings. The first minute of the fight, not too much happens for me. Cause I'm faking this, that, that, but every time I'm faking something, you twitch, I'm like, ah, this means this. Yeah, you twitch, this means this, this, and I just attach the strings to you. So now I'm moving you. I'll hit you, you just became Pinocchio.

• 2:34:47Speaker 00

  But that and that's important. This is why, like you said, all those fakes, but those fakes mean something.

• 2:34:51Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:34:51Speaker 00

  You know, I mean, I want, I'm getting, like you said, I'm getting that information from you. Okay, okay, yeah, he wants that. If I do this, he wants that, okay, I see it, okay, perfect. Now I I got it.

• 2:35:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's what's so important for the casual fan to understand.

• 2:35:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:35:03Joe Rogan?

  That there's a whole game taking place that if you could play it, you would understand what he's doing.

• 2:35:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:35:08Joe Rogan?

  But you're just seeing movement, random movement, you're like, hit him.

• 2:35:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:35:12Joe Rogan?

  Why don't you hit him? Meanwhile, if you knew, you'd be watching something beautiful.

• 2:35:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:35:17Joe Rogan?

  You're watching, you know, a dance.

• 2:35:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:35:20Joe Rogan?

  Snake charming.

• 2:35:21Speaker 00

  That is, that's it. It's part of the identity, man. It's part of the identity.

• 2:35:27Speaker 00

  I try to tell people though, but yeah.

• 2:35:28Joe Rogan?

  Do you know when you're fighting again? Have they given you any kind of an idea?

• 2:35:31Speaker 00

  Like I said, I pushed out information. I keep chasing up to kind of find out. I haven't really heard too much back.

• 2:35:37Joe Rogan?

  They're announcing some fights now, right?

• 2:35:39Speaker 00

  That's what I'm saying. It feels like things are slowly starting to happen. I'm still waiting.

• 2:35:44Joe Rogan?

  So Protest is gonna fight Leon Edwards.

• 2:35:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:35:47Joe Rogan?

  Right? So 170, which is what you're looking at the most, right?

• 2:35:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wanna, I wanna get back. I know I'm big now, but.

• 2:35:52Joe Rogan?

  You can make it though. I've seen you make it.

• 2:35:54Speaker 00

  I can make it. I wanna get back down.

• 2:35:56Joe Rogan?

  And you're trying to manage it at 170 too.

• 2:35:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I wanna get back down to 170. Just because like I said, I feel like, I think JDM's a great, uh, an amazing fighter. Um, I just feel stylistically I can beat, but I can beat him.

• 2:36:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's a very good style for stand-up for you.

• 2:36:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:36:11Joe Rogan?

  That's for sure. I mean, he's very complete.

• 2:36:13Speaker 00

  Very complete.

• 2:36:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's very, very good.

• 2:36:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, very complete. I really like his style. And very smart. You can tell. He's very smart. Like he has in specific to the opponent. He's like, okay, yeah. But like I said, that's one of the advantages. It's like you're not gonna have, it's gonna be very difficult for you, even as smart as you are, to figure that out.

• 2:36:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's why it's exciting for you with any stand-up fighter. As soon as you're fighting a guy who likes to stand up, it's like, are you sure?

• 2:36:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:36:36Joe Rogan?

  Are you sure you like to stand up?

• 2:36:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I tell people, I tell people this all the time.

• 2:36:40Joe Rogan?

  Welcome to this new thing that you've never experienced before. This guy you can't even touch.

• 2:36:44Speaker 00

  These guys wrestlers, man. I make all these stand-up guys wrestlers. And they always, everyone's like, I'm gonna strike with you.

• 2:36:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, listen, brother. I can't wait to see you in there again. I'm a giant fan. I'm so happy you're at the UFC now. And I know you do a lot of stuff online, so tell people how to find you and.

• 2:36:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, so again, it's all the social media. Michael Venom Page, everything, Instagram. You know, I don't really do Twitter as much or X, sorry. Um, my Facebook, YouTube, I'm doing a lot of stuff. Um, ITM, actually, I'm doing a film company. I always try to set myself up.

• 2:37:18Speaker 00

  For the next stage, my creative mind won't stop.

• 2:37:21Joe Rogan?

  You wanna make movies?

• 2:37:22Speaker 00

  I'm making movies. I've already made, I've already made two short movies.

• 2:37:26Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:37:26Speaker 00

  And again, the same.

• 2:37:28Joe Rogan?

  Congratulations. That's awesome.

• 2:37:29Speaker 00

  Thank you, thank you. And I wanna get into acting as well.

• 2:37:31Joe Rogan?

  What are they about?

• 2:37:32Speaker 00

  So, the first one was actually about an athlete's mindset. One thing that I find with films, I think people are lazy watchers nowadays. They find, just explosion, explosion, action, action, action, and crap storyline, but I want storytelling again. And this one is just more about an athlete's mindset. I did it through the eyes of a runner, just because it's slightly different. I didn't wanna just go down the same lane as MMA. Did it through the eyes of a runner and just how toxic your want and your need to be the best, how it can look like. And again, it's, I'll go into that one. I'll let people watch that one. That one's just called Runner.

• 2:38:12Speaker 00

  The next one's called Wait, and it's kind of about what anxiety can look like from a position of waiting for good news and a position of waiting for bad news, and how the parallels work and look almost identical. So you're literally watching two point of views. So, these two.

• 2:38:49Joe Rogan?

  So this dude's just freaking out, waiting for?

• 2:38:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's, he's.

• 2:38:54Joe Rogan?

  That's fucking cool if you're doing things like that.

• 2:38:57Speaker 00

  Thank you, man. Thank you.

• 2:38:57Joe Rogan?

  That's very cool.

• 2:38:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Like I said, I'm a creative mind. I need to express it in some way. And I know when I leave, I'm not gonna be one of those guys that retire and wanna come back. I retire and wanna come back. If I say I'm done, then I'm done.

• 2:39:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's great.

• 2:39:11Speaker 00

  And I need something else to go into.

• 2:39:13Joe Rogan?

  Nothing better than having something you look forward to, that you actually enjoy and love outside of it.

• 2:39:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:39:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, cuz it's hard. It's very hard for guys to end. It becomes your identity.

• 2:39:22Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 2:39:23Joe Rogan?

  And the thrill, you know more than anybody. The thrill of doing that is above and beyond almost anything else you'll experience in life.

• 2:39:29Speaker 00

  My thrill is usually, for me anyway, comes from expressing art. And I, we call it martial artists. As much as people see the, the, the, sometimes the blood, the knockouts and stuff, it's art. Like we just watched TJ Diller's show, that was art.

• 2:39:43Joe Rogan?

  Art.

• 2:39:43Speaker 00

  That was pure art.

• 2:39:44Joe Rogan?

  Pure art.

• 2:39:45Speaker 00

  Like.

• 2:39:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:46Speaker 00

  People don't appreciate that side of it and I'm, I love to paint pictures and I'm like, how can I continue painting pictures after this stage of my life? I'm like, okay, yeah, cool.

• 2:39:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, listen, man, if you make movies like you can fight, I'm in.

• 2:39:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trust me, we're, we're doing big things.

• 2:40:02Joe Rogan?

  I believe you, I believe you.

• 2:40:03Speaker 00

  Kishan, uh, the guy, my camera guy, Kishan Lekkanyi, he's, it just worked. The synergies just worked. He's directing films like he's done it for 20 years and he's just unbelievable, so.

• 2:40:12Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 2:40:13Speaker 00

  Whereas we're gonna do some, uh, magical things.

• 2:40:15Joe Rogan?

  I love hearing stuff like that, I really do. I really do.

• 2:40:19Speaker 00

  And I got, uh, sorry, like I said, I got a gift for you, anyway.

• 2:40:23Speaker 00

  What do you like, red or, red or black? You can have both if you want.

• 2:40:26Joe Rogan?

  What is it?

• 2:40:26Speaker 00

  Just a t-shirt.

• 2:40:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh, nice.

• 2:40:28Speaker 00

  And it just, it represents, uh, who we are, hands down. Martial artists, guys that do this and everyone mocks all the time. But it's obviously my brand, uh, so, extra large, large?

• 2:40:40Joe Rogan?

  Large?

• 2:40:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, let me see, large, yeah, large.

• 2:40:44Joe Rogan?

  Thank you very much, sir.

• 2:40:45Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 2:40:46Joe Rogan?

  Thank you.

• 2:40:46Speaker 00

  And then, um, also I got, again, I'm, I'm into everything, but I got a beef jerky company.

• 2:40:53Speaker 00

  Called Snap Down Snacks for snapping people, wrestling, snapping them down.

• 2:40:57Joe Rogan?

  Snap Down Snacks.

• 2:40:58Speaker 00

  So Snap Down, or Snack Down and some Snap Down.

• 2:41:01Joe Rogan?

  Thank you very much. All right. Fantastic.

• 2:41:04Speaker 00

  Yes, enjoy, let me know what you think.

• 2:41:06Joe Rogan?

  How do people find that company? Is it, is it a website?

• 2:41:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, just Snap Down on, uh.

• 2:41:09Joe Rogan?

  Snap Down Snacks?

• 2:41:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, Snap Down Snacks.

• 2:41:11Joe Rogan?

  Athletic fuel.

• 2:41:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when you, when you're, if you're in, um, the UK next, or when you're in the UK next, let me know. Um, I've got a Mexican restaurant, uh, as well, Ixcel.

• 2:41:21Joe Rogan?

  Wow, man. That's great, you're invested in all kinds of things.

• 2:41:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We actually had, uh, Kendall's, uh, uh, Kendall Jenner's, um, eight one eight tequila featuring in there. We're gonna have, uh, Jason Momoa, um, come in end of this month with his, uh, vodka, Millet vodka. So.

• 2:41:40Joe Rogan?

  Look at you.

• 2:41:41Speaker 00

  Oh, I mean, uh.

• 2:41:41Joe Rogan?

  Moving and shaking.

• 2:41:42Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, we, we're everywhere, everywhere.

• 2:41:44Joe Rogan?

  Um, all right, man, I'll see you this weekend.

• 2:41:46Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:41:47Joe Rogan?

  Thank you for doing this.

• 2:41:47Speaker 00

  Thank you, man.

• 2:41:48Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure.

• 2:41:48Speaker 00

  I, I really enjoyed it.

• 2:41:49Joe Rogan?

  I, I did too, thank you. Bye, everybody.

• 2:42:05Speaker 05

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games!

• 2:42:07Speaker 03

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 2:42:10Speaker 05

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 2:42:12Speaker 03

  Filmed for IMAX.

• 2:42:14Speaker 05

  Make them remember you.

• 2:42:16Speaker 03

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 2:42:21Speaker 05

  Hey, listen! Power up your play with Nintendo Switch 2 and experience Link's legendary adventure, now reborn in vibrant detail on our fastest and most powerful system yet. And harness the power of the Ocarina with the built-in microphone.

• 2:42:43Speaker 05

  The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. A Nintendo Switch 2 exclusive. Game and system sold separately. Game rated everyone 10 and up.