Lurker And What's Making Us Happy

Fame does strange things to people. In the new film Lurker, Théodore Pellerin plays a young retail clerk making his way into the inner circle of a popular rising musician (Archie Madekwe). This friendship is not really built to last and things between them become uncomfortable. Who is manipulating who, and who holds the power, become complicated and painful questions. Follow Pop Culture Happy Hour on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/nprpopculture https://letterboxd.com/nprpopculture/ See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This message comes from the Carter Center, waging peace, fighting disease and building hope since 1982. In Far Away, Up Close: Global Stories from the Carter Center, you'll hear from people on the front lines in their own words. Follow the podcast wherever you listen.

• 0:20Linda Holmes?

  Fame does strange things to people. In the new film Lurker, a young retail clerk makes his way into the inner circle of a popular, rising musician. And being in that orbit is intoxicating.

• 0:33Stephen Thompson?

  This friendship isn't really built to last. The power imbalance between the guy who feels like a nobody and the guy who travels with an entourage inevitably becomes a strain. And that becomes painful, then maybe even dangerous. I'm Stephen Thompson.

• 0:48Linda Holmes?

  And I'm Linda Holmes. This is Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. And today, we are talking about Lurker. Joining us today are our co-hosts, Aisha Harris. Hello, Ayesha.

• 0:59Aisha Harris?

  Hello, hello, Lynda.

• 1:00Linda Holmes?

  And Glen Weldon, hello, Glenn.

• 1:02Stephen Thompson?

  Hey, Belle.

• 1:03Linda Holmes?

  We are so happy to be all here together to talk about this, I would not say cheerful and upbeat film, but we're going to get into it. Lurker begins with a young guy named Matthew, played by Theodore Pellerin, who works in a clothing store. A popular young musician named Oliver, played by Archie Medequi, comes into the store surrounded by an aura of specialness. And Matthew can't help trying to get Oliver's attention. It works. And before you know it, Matthew is added to Oliver's circle of friends and hangers-on, ostensibly to help with a documentary Oliver is having made about himself. Because Matthew is desperately lonely, this relationship is everything to him. And he comes to realize, maybe it is not

• 1:48Linda Holmes?

  everything to Oliver. Matthew becomes jealous and possessive about his place in Oliver's life. And things between them get uncomfortable. Who is manipulating who and who holds the power become complicated and painful questions. The film is written and directed by Alex Russell, an Emmy-winning producer and writer who's Worked on shows including Beef and The Bear. Lurker is in theaters now. Ayesha, I'm gonna start with you. You saw this, I think, before the rest of us did, because it was at Sundance. Tell me how you feel about Lurker.

• 2:24Aisha Harris?

  I am all in on Lurker. This is Ayesha Katnip. I love an obsession movie. I love a movie that is about parasocial relationships. Like, what is the fine line? There's a lyric that Ali sings in one of his songs. It's like, what's the difference between love and obsession? And this movie is like, what's the difference between wanting to be someone and maybe wanting to actually have sex with them? I don't know. There's a lot of like thin line between homoeroticism and also just like admiration. And Theodore Powlin is new to me, but he gets this character, this like sociopathic striver, so right. And the contrast between him and Archie Medequi as Oliver,

• 3:07Aisha Harris?

  who people may recognize as the cousin from Saltburn. And this has a lot of Saltburn vibes. And we were all on that episode where we talked about it. We all liked it, but I know a lot of people did not like it. But I think more people will be into Lurker, in part because, as you mentioned, Linda, one of the writers on Beef, and there's a lot of beef in here, too. And I think there's like, beef, Saltburn, food. It's great. Anyway, I loved it, and I'm excited to hear how you all felt about it as well.

• 3:36Linda Holmes?

  Yeah, you know, you mentioned that fine lines between wanting to be friends with someone, wanting to possess them, wanting to have sex with them. We also talked about this with Ripley, and I think it has come up in the various retellings of The Talented Mr. Ripley as well. Steven, what did you think about Lurker?

• 3:54Stephen Thompson?

  I'm very much in the same boat as Ayesha. I basically just loved this film. I think the performances at the center of it are grand. I think it does such a beautiful job conveying the horror of precariousness. How much it can feel like a horror movie when it's just somebody walking into a room and clocking the expressions on everyone's faces. It is a very tense film. Is also a very expertly scored film. Kenny Beats does the music for this film. I cannot tell you, first of all, how effectively the score kind of sets up a lot of this tension, but also how right this film gets.

• 4:36Stephen Thompson?

  A very specific subgenre of music that is really popping right now. This sound that I would describe as kind of like deconstructed bedroom R and B. And I was like scribbling in my notes, names like Rex Orange County, Dijon, Omar Apollo. It's this very specific sound and I kind of waited, got to the closing credits and I was so pleased with myself because one of the songs, Love and Obsession, is co-written by Rex Orange County.

• 5:03Speaker 04

  What's the difference between love and obsession? I don't know, but I know I want you. When judging by your facial expression, oh, I think maybe you might want me too.

• 5:19Aisha Harris?

  Oh, I had no idea.

• 5:21Stephen Thompson?

  Dijon co-writes one of these songs. And I was like, I know music.

• 5:25Aisha Harris?

  Oh, good job, buddy. Yeah.

• 5:28Stephen Thompson?

  But this film really gets at not only where this guy would fit into the actual pop landscape, but kind of where this entire sound fits into the pop landscape. Because it's mainstream, but it's not all the way mainstream. So Oliver is at this kind of precarious point in his career, where who knows, maybe he's the next gigantic superstar, or maybe he kind of fades back into the C-list. And so I think the precariousness of everyone's position is so well captured here.

• 6:00Linda Holmes?

  And I think he's exactly the right amount of famous, too. Because if he were less famous, he wouldn't feel so sparkly. But if he were more famous, it would be much harder to achieve this kind of ingratiating yourself. Is he surrounded by 4,000 lawyers who are going to make sure nothing happens to him? Not necessarily yet. Glenn, how about you? What'd you think?

• 6:22Speaker 05

  I mean, you know, you are in really good, confident hands with this movie. In that very first scene you mentioned at the top, Matthew's working at the store. Oliver comes in. There's a line from his coworker, Jamie, played by Sonny Seljic, who says, oh, he's back. That does so much work because at that moment, you watch Matthew click in, put his plan into action. He connects his phone to the store's P A system, plays a deep cut Nile Rodgers song that he knows will impress Oliver because he's done his research. In any other movie, that's what 15, 20 minutes of backstory collapsed into 30 seconds of screen time. And if we had spent 20 or 30 minutes in that backstory, this film would not be called

• 7:06Speaker 05

  Lurker, it would be called Stalker because we'd spend a lot of time

• 7:09Linda Holmes?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 05

  in the chase and the hunt and the spying. But the fact is, what this movie is interested in is what happens next. What happens once you penetrate the inner circle? You're a physical and emotional presence. The great thing about this movie, the power dynamics and how they shift on a dime in a moment. I think people will get from our conversation that this movie is not an easy sit, but it is getting at something that is so real. People talk to Saltburn. I kept thinking of Entourage. What if Entourage wasn't just this empty aspirational wish fulfillment for 14 year old boys? What if it really got at something, really drilled down into

• 7:49Linda Holmes?

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 05

  the shifting power dynamics instead of just paying lip service to it? I really dug this.

• 7:54Linda Holmes?

  Yeah. And that's what the writer and director has talked about is that he was interested in these circles of young men where they're very, very competitive with each other. And what I really like about it, and we've alluded to this a couple of times, is that there is not an unambiguous statement from the film that like, here is the good guy and here's the bad guy, right? Is Matthew sort of stalking this guy? Yes, definitely. Is Matthew kind of doing a lot of manipulative things to kind of work his way into this circle? Yes. But at the same time, you can see how Oliver is guilty of this kind of beautiful kid gets fascinated by Somebody and then gets bored with them and then needs a new person who's just so excited to be around him.

• 8:39Linda Holmes?

  And so you can also understand that Oliver is contributing to this and being unkind by sort of needing that constant feeding. And there are kind of a couple of guys who are with him all the time to last throughout all of this. But then a lot of these people who clearly just kind of come and go, the ghosts of those other people are very present in the story. I don't want to explain exactly how it plays out, but I said to Ayesha when we talked about this, like, I'm not sure I completely buy the very end of this. But by then, I think I was so impressed by the dynamics that it had set up and the way that it uses this

• 9:21Linda Holmes?

  idea of kind of, you know, home video and documentary filmmaking and that that becomes this way that Matthew is kind of constantly this eye gazing at Oliver. Gee, I just, it's real good. It's real good.

• 9:36Aisha Harris?

  I guess I don't exactly buy the very end either. But I also think another sort of comp that I envisioned while watching this film was Drake. In terms of like the way certain people, certain artists tend to have yes men in their crew and people who will nod and say yes to whatever. And who also seem desperate to be loved in like the most superficial way, but like loved, adored, playing every person against each other. And everyone knows what's happening. Everyone knows, but they go along with it because they want to latch on. And Ali is not nearly as obnoxious as Drake is. He's not as like, he doesn't have that same kind of like icky persona.

• 10:18Aisha Harris?

  But he does have that capability of like using people in a way that is a little different from Matthew, but he still uses them. We talked about a little bit about their crew, Zach Fox, who is

• 10:31Stephen Thompson?

  Yeah, I wanted to talk about

• 10:32Aisha Harris?

  One of the most hilarious, like every, anytime he's in something, so Zach Fox, he played Janine's ex-boyfriend on Abbott Elementary. That's probably

• 10:40Stephen Thompson?

  The obstacle boyfriend in Abbott Elementary.

• 10:42Aisha Harris?

  Yes, yes, yes. He is one of the men in Ali's circle. And the way that him and everyone really, as soon as Matthew steps in, they all clock, like at one point, you know, Matthew calls him Ali. And he's like, oh, you you call him this dude Ali already? And then he's like, he's ribbing him, right? Like, all of those very awkward moments of like, why are you here? Also Havana Rose Lou as Shy, who's like the one woman who kind of is like the mother hen, for lack of a better word, like she is the one who kind of like is the most together and not just kind of, you know, crapping around. She says at one point, like, you need to figure out how to make yourself useful. And it's just so good at those interactions and that kind of like hanger-on sociability that is happening within this group.

• 11:26Linda Holmes?

  Well, and it's like, is she the kindest to him or is she the most evil? Because she's essentially the person who is telling this incredibly needy kid how to burrow himself more deeply into this situation that she knows is gonna hurt him. You know, I mean, I don't mean evil exactly, but like-

• 11:44Aisha Harris?

  She's an enabler. That's what I would say.

• 11:46Linda Holmes?

  She's an enabler kind of of both of them in a way.

• 11:49Stephen Thompson?

  I also love the way the people who are kind of grappling for position near the bottom of this pecking order are fleshed out as characters and are given clear motivation along the way. You have this dynamic between Matthew and not only like kind of the other videographer guy, Noah, played by Daniel Zogodri.

• 12:13Aisha Harris?

  The guy who was there first.

• 12:14Stephen Thompson?

  Yeah, the guy who was there first, and Matthew is kind of encroaching on Noah's territory. Noah knows it. You get this kind of battle for primacy between them. But then underneath Matthew is coming Matthew's old coworker and friend Jamie, played by Sonny Soljic, who Glenn alluded to earlier. You see the threat that they are posing to each other. And so like, one thing I really love about this film is it's not just kind of a battle between Oliver and Matthew and kind of who has the upper hand? And is Matthew able to fully ingratiate himself into Oliver's world? But you have lots of these shades of gray and lots of relationships between these other

• 12:58Stephen Thompson?

  characters in this film that are fully fleshed out without making the film feel padded.

• 13:04Speaker 05

  And I think a lot of that is on the back of Madequie as Oliver. This film doesn't work unless we see Oliver's complicitness. He's the guy who invited the vampire inside. His hunger for connection, validation, it's vulnerability. I mean, he plays such a great, like, he's bluff, he's puffed up, he's cocky, he's confident, except when he isn't. Then, all of a sudden, he isn't. And, you know, in thrillers, and especially in Hitchcock films, there's this moment in a conversation between, this is reductive, but the good guy and the bad guy, where the good guy suddenly realizes that the bad guy is the bad guy, and it all happens underneath the conversation. But they hold each other's gaze in a way that thesis papers

• 13:47Speaker 05

  are written that could be seen as sexual. But this movie, I think, in a really smart way, in a really uncomfortable scene, goes out of its way to say, that's not really what's going on here. What's really going on here is a betrayal of trust, a fundamental betrayal of trust. It comes from the fact that intimacy comes with vulnerability. And that moment that I'm talking about, which we can't get too deep into, is a moment of recognizing that your vulnerability is being exploited. That's this whole movie.

• 14:13Linda Holmes?

  Yeah. When we talked about this with Saltburn, you know, where is the line between, as Ayesha alluded to earlier, sexual desire for this person and almost wanting to eat them? You know what I mean? Almost wanting to swallow them whole. There is such a desire to possess and consume this person. The engine that drives this entire story is that both Oliver and Matthew are just black holes of need, whether it's attention, or prominence, or the way it makes Matthew feel when he becomes somebody who has been tagged in enough Instagram posts that now people know who he is. When Oliver and all of Oliver's circle start following

• 14:58Linda Holmes?

  him on Instagram and he realizes-

• 15:00Aisha Harris?

  He takes a screenshot. It's happening.

• 15:03Linda Holmes?

  This is gonna give him his own following, sort of his own following, but again.

• 15:09Stephen Thompson?

  It's an entirely conditional following.

• 15:11Linda Holmes?

  Yes. It all belongs to his relationship with Oliver. And so you can understand why, you know, as somebody who is so deeply, deeply needy, the more he realizes that he's gotten what he desperately wants in some ways, but it's all, as you said, Stephen, conditional on retaining this relationship, not even a relationship, but just a proximity. Then you can really understand how that scramble at the bottom of the food chain, particularly between him and Jamie, I think. Those moments when you realize like how much he's going to freak out about something that involves Jamie.

• 15:49Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 15:50Speaker 05

  Yeah. And that's all compounded by the nature of this camera work, which has a handheld quality. It's constantly on the move, constantly searching for something because these characters are always searching for something, trying to find something in the, in the scene.

• 16:02Aisha Harris?

  Yeah. Going back to sort of what you were saying, Linda, about him suddenly gaining all these followers. That is another thing that this movie gets so right. There is a key scene where, you know, he's out on the street and he gets recognized by someone. This person is just like, yeah, you like inspire me to be myself, but then he's like, but also like, what do you do? And, and, and that question is, I don't want to be reductive and say it's like the definition of our times, but like, it is kind of like, what are so many people doing for jobs? They're not actually doing anything. And Ali at least is a pop star, so we know what he does to some extent. Matthew doesn't want to be a pop star himself.

• 16:43Aisha Harris?

  This isn't like an All About Eve situation. It's just like, he wants to reap the benefits of being in proximity to a pop star. And that makes it a little bit different from a lot of other, of these like obsession films in a way.

• 16:55Stephen Thompson?

  And I think part of what works so well about it is how quickly Matthew comes to see himself as an artist.

• 17:03Aisha Harris?

  An artist who will craft Ali's image in that. Yeah.

• 17:06Stephen Thompson?

  Oh my gosh. I think that's such a clever touch. Like he's not just a hanger on. He has decreed himself to be part of this art that everyone is talking about.

• 17:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, just by filming bike stunts.

• 17:21Aisha Harris?

  And lambs and sheep and whatever.

• 17:23Linda Holmes?

  And I think when you talk about that, like that he wants to reap the benefits of the fame and the appreciation that Oliver has, I think one of those benefits is really just having an identity. He's kind of lost. He doesn't really feel like anybody. He doesn't feel like anybody cares about him. You know, they show in the trailer Oliver saying, I guess that means you're my best friend. And when you watch that scene, you kind of understand that Oliver is saying it in a certain way. But you also look at it and you go, oh, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

• 17:58Aisha Harris?

  Oliver is a goober. He's kind of a goober.

• 18:02Linda Holmes?

  He is. I think that's an important part of the dynamic. He is not a Machiavellian, you know, manipulator on purpose, I don't think. He's also very, very needy and very, very young.

• 18:14Speaker 05

  I just watched this movie going, oh, don't be in your twenties. Oh, don't ever be in your twenties.

• 18:21Linda Holmes?

  Well, I am extremely curious to hear whether other people have the same reactions to this film that we did. It is in theaters now. Tell us what you think about Lurker. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com slash PCHH and on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com slash NPR pop culture. We'll have a link in our episode description. Up next, what's making us happy this week?

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from ProLon with their five day fasting mimicking diet, a clinically developed nutrition program with the goal of promoting fat loss while protecting lean body mass. Learn more at prolonlife.com slash NPR. This message comes from the Carter Center. Since 1982, the Carter Center has gone where the need is greatest, waging peace, fighting disease, and building hope. Far Away Up Close: Global Stories from the Carter Center is a new documentary style podcast about the people who do this difficult, often dangerous work and what drew them to it, told in their own words. Follow Far Away Up Close: Global Stories from the Carter Center wherever you listen.

• 19:31Speaker 00

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• 19:47Linda Holmes?

  Now it is time for our favorite segment of this week and every week. What's making us happy this week? Glen Weldon, I'm going to start with you. What is making you happy this week?

• 19:55Speaker 05

  OK, well, I heard from some folks who watched the James Gunn Superman movie and saw that end bit with Millie Alcock as Supergirl and wondered, what's that about? What's her whole deal? And I got good news for them because this doesn't happen often in comics, but there is a single one book you can go to to get completely up to speed on her whole deal. It's an eight issue run of comics called Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow. It's collected now in a trade paperback. It's written by Tom King with art by Bukas Evili. It's a space opera meets Samurai epic meets true grit. This book is what they're going to be basing the Supergirl movie that's coming up on, which is a very smart decision, that is the trade paperback, Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow.

• 20:34Linda Holmes?

  Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow. Thank you very much, Glen Weldon. You always thrill me with things I've never heard of. I appreciate it very much. Aisha Harris, what is making you happy this week?

• 20:45Aisha Harris?

  Well, keeping on the theme with our very dark and cringey film, Lurker, I am very happy that I recently watched Misericordia.

• 20:55Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:55Aisha Harris?

  From the French filmmaker Alain Géhi. I highly suggest avoid going to the Wikipedia page because last I checked, it gave away the entire plot in just a handful of sentences. And the less known going in, the better. But the basic gist of this is that a character named Jeremy, played by Felix Kizil, he returns to his small hometown in France to attend the funeral of his former boss. He winds up staying in town a little longer than he intended, which stirs up some drama, including with the boss's son, who used to be Jeremy's friend. And then it gets just like really dark and weird, but also comedic and fun. It features one of the weirdest and most surprising scenes involving confession with a priest that I have ever seen. I really loved it. It's Misericordia and it's streaming on

• 21:40Aisha Harris?

  And it's also available to rent on demand.

• 21:43Linda Holmes?

  All right. Thank you very much, Aisha Harris. Also thrilling, something I admit I have heard of. All right. Stephen Thompson, what is making you happy this week?

• 21:52Stephen Thompson?

  Well, I've got a wonderful singer songwriter that maybe Linda hasn't heard of. A fantastic singer songwriter from Australia named Sophie Payton, who records under the name Gordy. Now she has an absolutely fantastic new record called Like Plasticine. And the sound of this record is kind of toggling between these beautiful, bleary, kind of haunting slower songs. And then these effervescent, spangly, poppy marvels, like this perfect song called Cutting Room Floor.

• 22:42Stephen Thompson?

  Her songs just bloom in this majestic, gorgeous way. I've gone back to this record again and again, and it's only been out for like two weeks. I really, really highly recommend that people check it out. That's Gordy. The album is called Like Plasticine.

• 22:58Linda Holmes?

  I've not heard of that, but I want to hear more of it.

• 23:01Stephen Thompson?

  It's Ayesha core. You'll love it.

• 23:03Linda Holmes?

  Yeah. Yeah. I enjoyed that very much. And indeed, I had never heard it. Thank you very much, Stephen Thompson. Have I got a game for people who listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour. It is a game called Tiny Bookshop.

• 23:20Linda Holmes?

  It is exactly what it sounds like. You run a tiny bookshop in a breezy little town full of friendly locals. You stock your bookshop by buying books from several different genres, crime, kids, travel, nonfiction, classics, whatever. And then people drop by and they buy books if they can find what they're looking for. The best part is they start asking you to recommend a book for them. So you can look at your shelves and you can see what particular books you have in stock, and they are real books. You can try to get like a little bit creative, like maybe they ask for a crime book, but maybe you have an exciting true story that you think

• 24:02Linda Holmes?

  will work based on the little description that they give you. And maybe it's a little bit of a risk, but you think they're going to like it. You can take that little risk, see if they buy it, see if it pays off. There is a lot more to this game. You can also decorate your little shop and add shelves and stuff like that. And you know, it kind of grows. So this is again, Tiny Bookshop, and it is available right now on Steam for PCs and Macs, and also available for the Switch, which is where I have played it.

• 24:30Aisha Harris?

  That's one of the nerdiest things we've recommended in a minute on this show. I love it. It sounds like Roller Coaster Tycoon, but for public media.

• 24:39Speaker 05

  Yes, it just makes me think, what font should I make my shelf tags in?

• 24:43Linda Holmes?

  Tiny Bookshop. That is what is making me happy this week. If you want links for what we recommended, plus some additional recommendations, you can sign up for our newsletter. That's at npr.org/popculturenewsletter. That brings us to the end of this year's show. Aisha Harris, Stephen Thompson, Glen Weldon, thank you so much for being here. I promise to never follow any of you around as much as I admire you.

• 25:07Aisha Harris?

  Thank you, Lynda.

• 25:08Speaker 05

  Thank you. You can follow me around anytime, buddy.

• 25:11Linda Holmes?

  All right. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Janie Morris, and Mike Cassiff, and edited by our showrunner, the great Jessica Reedy. And Hello, Come In! provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes, and we'll see you all next week.

• 25:33Speaker 06

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.