Dr. Peter McCullough on mRNA Vaccines, Myocarditis, & Hydroxychloroquine

The COVID pandemic changed medicine forever—but not in the way most people think. Behind the headlines and talking points were silenced doctors, ignored data, and warnings that never reached the public. In this episode, Dr. Peter McCullough shares what he saw firsthand—and why he believes we’re only beginning to understand the long-term consequences. Watch The Dr. Josh Axe Show every Monday & Thursday on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@drjoshaxe?sub_confirmation=1 🎧 Early Access! Our podcast listeners get every episode early, and you can tune in and be a part of our exclusive listeners below → Spotify Apple Podcast Order my NEW BOOK, The Biblio Diet → https://bit.ly/4oPEP3t Watch my free training on how to naturally balance your blood sugar and reverse your symptoms → DrAxeDiabetesClass.com Discover practical steps you can take today to start healing your thyroid naturally → DrAxeThyroidClass.com If you’re ready to start feeling like yourself again and balance your hormones, take my free class → DrAxeHormoneClass.com Uncover what’s really going on in your body with advanced biomarker testing for hormones, thyroid, and metabolism— plus a 1-hour consultation with a Senior Health Advisor! → MyBloodWork.com CONNECT WITH DR. JOSH AXE Instagram Facebook TikTok X LinkedIn Website Sign up for my newsletter Ask me a question CONNECT WITH DR. PETER MCCULLOUGH The Wellness Company: https://www.twc.health/ Podcast: https://www.americaoutloud.news/category/podcasts/the-mccullough-report/ Website: petermcculloughmd.com Wednesday’s Pulse Podcast: https://www.americaoutloud.news/category/podcasts/america-out-loud-pulse/ McCullough Foundation: https://mcculloughfnd.org/ Focal Point Sub Stack: https://substack.com/chat/1119676 DISCLAIMER This content is strictly the opinion of Dr. Josh Axe and is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice or to take the place of medical advice or treatment from a personal physician. All viewers of this content are advised to consult their doctors or qualified health professionals regarding specific health questions. Neither Dr. Axe nor the publisher of this content takes responsibility for possible health consequences of any person or persons reading or following the information in this educational content. All viewers of this content, especially those taking prescription or over-the-counter medications, should consult their physicians before beginning any nutrition, supplement or lifestyle program. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

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• 1:30Josh Axe?

  I was so frustrated going through COVID because I was working with people and getting them on specific diet and supplements and seeing good results. I know you were seeing incredible results with all that you've done. And I just thought, well, there are literally people dying right now because our government, supposed to be the greatest protector of the people, is keeping this information from them.

• 1:51Speaker 04

  In my mind, I was thinking, something this contagious, we're all gonna get.

• 1:55Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:55Speaker 04

  It's gonna be unavoidable.

• 1:56Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:57Speaker 04

  But you know, no one came out from the public health agencies and said, listen, get ready, America. We're all gonna get it, and we need to avoid hospitalization and death. No one said that. There's multiple papers showing some people who get COVID actually turn HIV positive. So there was something about the spike protein that was very unnatural. Like, why is it identical to a segment of HIV? Then all the information comes out of Wuhan, China, and the House Subcommittee investigations on this. The spike protein... Was engineered. Engineered. It's not a natural protein. It's engineered. They collaborated and they made an indestructible spike protein.

• 2:34Josh Axe?

  Dr. Fauci, correct me if I'm wrong, in the 1980s, he was very involved with research around HIV.

• 2:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:41Josh Axe?

  Is there a difference between getting the COVID vaccine and being exposed that way versus getting it naturally?

• 2:48Speaker 04

  Yes, in two ways. The religion goes like this. Humans are susceptible to infectious diseases inherently. But through the brilliance of science and vaccinology, through the brilliance of mankind, man can improve upon God's creation.

• 3:02Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 3:03Speaker 04

  Man outdoes God with vaccines. But the vaccines aren't perfect. So for them to work, for this really to work, everyone must take them. Everyone, without exception. And if some people are injured or disabled or even die due to the vaccine effort, they should accept it for the greater good of humanity. That's vaccine ideology.

• 3:26Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

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• 4:31Josh Axe?

  On today's episode, I've brought on Dr. Peter McCullough. Now, Dr. Peter was a leading voice, medical doctor for places like Fox News and talking about the truth about what was happening today in terms of the pandemic, myocarditis, mRNA vaccines, and also what to do about conditions like long COVID. We're going to go through today his McCullough protocol, which is an herbal and a vitamin and supplement protocol. We're going to talk about hydroxychloroquine. We're going to talk about ivermectin and all the natural ways to bolster your immune system. Dr. McCullough, welcome to the show.

• 5:07Speaker 04

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 5:08Josh Axe?

  Well, I'm really excited to have you on. You know, you were one of the people as we were going through this whole COVID lockdown vaccine debate that I really followed closely. And one of the things that I was so impressed with is how you stood your ground. You were really committed to discovering the truth and telling the truth despite so much criticism from your peers. And so I'm excited today to talk about what we've learned as we've gone through COVID. I'm so excited to hear more about what you're talking about is the new cocaine and the new tobacco today that people are getting and some of your philosophies around that. And it's going to be a fun conversation. So thanks so much for coming on today.

• 5:45Speaker 04

  Can't believe I finally made it on your show. And as introduced, I'm Dr. Peter McCullough. I'm in practice as an internist and a cardiologist in Dallas, Texas, but I'm also trained as a research epidemiologist and have been greatly involved in pandemic response. None of us in the field of healthcare were prepared at all for a pandemic.

• 6:06Josh Axe?

  Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. You know, I remember really early on, and this was, this was like March, April of 2020, when we, when we started having this sort of first discussions about lockdowns. I went on and did a few podcasts and I got a lot of pushback because my, my reply was, listen,

• 6:23Josh Axe?

  If you have a viral infection, there are some general things that are good for everybody to do. You know, take vitamin D, take zinc, take vitamin C, try elderberry echinacea, do corsetin. Let's do some of these types of things. Do more soups and bone broth, more fruits, vegetables, get outside, get lots of sunshine. And I was hammered, I actually had a couple media outlets write papers on I was being unscientific, there's no evidence for what I was saying. And I thought, wow, this is, this is sort of crazy that this is happening. And so, but you probably more than anybody, or as much as anybody, I remember watching, you in particular, Robert Malone, Marty Makler, and a few others, get a load of criticism as well. What caused you to stand your ground and continue to tell the truth about what you

• 7:08Josh Axe?

  knew to be true about mRNA vaccines and what was going on?

• 7:11Speaker 04

  Well, let's go to the infection. What we were told from the very beginning, and consistently through the pandemic, was that the virus was unassailable.

• 7:23Josh Axe?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 7:24Speaker 04

  It was untreatable. Do you know CNN never gave an update on practical prevention and treatment? Neither did Fox News, neither did CBS, NBC, ABC? Never. You turn on your local news stations here in Nashville, they never presented a practical segment about what you could do to prevent the infection, or reduce its intensity and severity. Not once, despite actually even products becoming available through the Operation Warp Speed that we could utilize, and then an entire array of available over the counter

• 8:08Speaker 04

  nutraceuticals and supplements, nasal sprays and gargles, and then prescription drugs. And so, when I looked at this as a treating doctor, I said, really? You know, out of the gate, it's already predetermined that this is untreatable?

• 8:24Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 8:26Speaker 04

  And so, I set out early on, I was in some communications with others that were looking at this, like-minded, and I went on one National Institutes of Health, kind of all-hands-on-deck call. And I was impressed by that call. It was actually held by the NIDDK Division of the National Institutes of Health, which I worked with very closely as a academic researcher. And what was being reported was, you know, we're just trying to find out what's going on with this infection. And Harvard and all the major institutions were on the call. They said, listen, when people get in the hospital with COVID, they are so sick. We're seeing the blood lines clot.

• 9:10Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 9:10Speaker 04

  And patients crash. And I got off that call. And I don't think at that point in time at my institution, we had any cases. And within a week, we had our very first case. So a man had flown in from New York to Dallas, became sick quickly, was hospitalized at my hospital. I was at a major academic medical center. And teams went to see him, including some doctors who were under me, and examined him. He was about my age. And he absolutely crashed. He was dead in a couple of days. Previously healthy. And I concluded, based on the NIH call, in our very first case, I told myself, you know what?

• 9:55Speaker 04

  The hospital is too late. That this cannot be the venue for treatment. If there's any hope of getting us through the pandemic, we have to look at hospitalization as a bad outcome. And death is obviously a bad outcome. So the goal was to avoid hospitalization and death. And in my mind, I was thinking, something this contagious, we're all going to get.

• 10:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:27Speaker 04

  It's going to be unavoidable.

• 10:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:29Speaker 04

  But you know, no one came out from the public health agencies and said, listen, get ready, America. We're all going to get it. And we need to avoid hospitalization and death. No one said that.

• 10:39Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 10:40Speaker 04

  Trump didn't say that. Biden never said that.

• 10:42Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 10:43Speaker 04

  Anthony Fauci never said that. I mean, think about this. Instead, the message was the opposite. Wear a mask, you can avoid getting it. Stay in lockdown, you can, you can avoid getting it. Wash your hands, distance, you can avoid getting it. In fact, if you get it, let's try to study who you came in contact with. So our government had a huge effort on contact tracing. Let's see who you talked to and see who you talked to. Who did you meet with? Wait a minute, all of that was based on a presupposition that you could avoid getting the illness. If it was understood that we were going to all get the illness and the serologic studies suggest we all did get the illness,

• 11:26Speaker 04

  that if that was the case, we would not have any lockdowns, no masks, no social distancing. We were all going to get it. The goal was to get through it without hospitalization and death.

• 11:39Josh Axe?

  Yeah, but imagine if they took all that. I remember, and I was, you know, I remember sitting there looking at the TV screens and they have this, this, this, uh, this ticker of how many people are dying per, per minute, you know, like just constantly. And that, you know, just constantly going on the screens and just thinking, wow.

• 11:55Speaker 04

  Wait a minute, wait a minute, though. I saw that ticker too. And, uh, in fact, I had some patients under my care die.

• 12:06Speaker 04

  From the time of death to the time I determined the cause of death on the death certificate, was about six weeks, maybe 12 weeks. How could they instantaneously, minute by minute, have a death count?

• 12:24Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 04

  Honestly, to that, to this day, I think is fraudulent.

• 12:29Josh Axe?

  Well, you know, I, I had a, I have a friend who's in the hospital system and they said, yeah, anybody died of anything in some hospitals? Every one of them, for the most part, was chalked up to, to COVID. He said, you know, I, I had somebody, he's like, I had people die of what was obviously pneumonia. I had people die of other, other, other events and it was chalked up as that, you know, one of the first studies that sort of really impacted me was looking at the study that came out on comorbidity and how that was so related to COVID deaths. It was in the 90 percentile.

• 12:57Speaker 04

  Well, this is very important. How deaths were counted ultimately was PCR test positive at any time, death at any time. This is very important. So you could have had a PCR test that was falsely positive in January and died of a heart attack in September and the National Center for Health Statistics counted that as a COVID death.

• 13:23Josh Axe?

  Oh, wow.

• 13:24Speaker 04

  Okay, so if they had those two linkers. Now, in 2023, the National Center for Health Statistics, and it's still on the website today, examined the codification of 1.2 million COVID deaths in the United States. And what they found is at least half of those cases, there's no mention of pneumonia. None. Zero. So that 1.2 million COVID deaths, which is a standard talking point in government circles, for sure is half of that. It's 600,000. Now, when there's been adjudication in peer-reviewed studies where doctors look at this and say, did they really die of COVID? Or did they have COVID and ultimately die of a comorbid

• 14:09Speaker 04

  complication, which you pointed out, that 50% probably comes down to about 10%. There's one study from Italy that got it down to 3%. So as we sit here today, if I was to testify under oath, I would say probably 120,000 Americans died of SARS-CoV-2 infection.

• 14:30Josh Axe?

  Wow. I mean, that's, yeah, I mean, that's a big difference in 1.2 million.

• 14:34Speaker 04

  Right. And so a severe influenza year can be 70,000 deaths.

• 14:39Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 04

  Influenza, though, is counted the same way. It's test positive for influenza and death of any type. That's how it's counted. There's a series of papers that are published each year. The first author is 1040. Notice on this interview, I'm going to quote the author's first name on multiple studies. When you watch TV and you watch Anthony Fauci, Peter Hotez, Sanjay Gupta, they quote no studies.

• 15:07Josh Axe?

  Right, ever, yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 04

  I will, in this interview, I will quote dozens of them. But 1040 publishes almost every year a summary of the CDC influenza statistics. And importantly, about 15% of influenza deaths are directly due to influenza. About 85%. So it's the same issue. So the infectious disease mortality is grossly overestimated based on CDC and infectious disease conventions.

• 15:36Josh Axe?

  Dr. McCullough, if you were to go back in time, or, or maybe this happened a year after you were already practicing and, and seeing these patients with COVID. What is it that you would have them do? Because you said, you know, okay, we need to do something before they get into the hospitals. What are those things in exact protocol you would typically have people do now? If this whole, if there's a whole wave of a viral pandemic again?

• 16:01Speaker 04

  Great question. You know, I, what I've done from the very beginning is I have taken the completely accountable approach in what I am proposing and what I'm doing in clinical medicine, and it's via academic publication. So in August of 2020, in the American Journal of Medicine, I published the McCullough Protocol. American Journal of Medicine, I mean, that's right up there with New England Journal of Medicine and Archives and Journal of Medicine. And, you know, it was the lead paper, most cited paper in that journal for years. Pretty important. So in August of 2020, America and the world had an organized protocol to treat COVID-19 with the goal of preventing hospitalization and death.

• 16:46Speaker 04

  Now, it was immediately picked up by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons and became, which is a credentialed, chartered physician organization nationwide. American doctors tend to be top in their class. And so we had a physician organization by October of 2020 saying, listen, we should treat patients at home. The National Institutes of Health, the CDC and the NIH and the White House and the Coronavirus Task Force never mentioned or cited this paper or this organization and approach, never. As if it didn't exist. So what was it? It was refined over time, but the current state of the McCullough Protocol, it's been copyrighted in my name.

• 17:29Speaker 04

  Not patented, but copyrighted for accountability. It's copyrighted to my name. I'm accountable. I'm accountable. It's been credited with saving tens of millions of lives and sparing hundreds of millions of hospitalizations worldwide. This is how important it is. It's the biggest thing in COVID.

• 17:47Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 17:48Speaker 04

  Way bigger than a vaccine, way bigger than a mask, way bigger than a lockdown. It's treating the problem. So, we start at the very beginning, is people come down with COVID, rebreathing and re-inoculation, and we cited the data on this, was a problem. So, the last thing we want to do is have somebody locked down in a, in a bedroom, or in a condominium, or somewhere where they can't get fresh air.

• 18:14Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 18:14Speaker 04

  So, we tell people, immediately get outside and get fresh air, and stop rebreathing the virus, and reduce that re-inoculation. Step two, nasal sprays and gargles. Very important, very important. There were dozens of randomized trials, prospective, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials, that showed, immediately starting nasal sprays and gargles, and virtually everything worked, from saline, to dilute palmitium iodine, to xylitol, colloidal silver. They all worked.

• 18:48Josh Axe?

  Yeah, wow.

• 18:49Speaker 04

  So, the principle was, the virus was setting shop in, in the nose, replicating and just overwhelming the system. If you did nasal sprays up the nose, twice a day for prevention through the pandemic, worked marvelously. And then, in acute infection, we can go to every four to six hours, several sprays up the nose, sniff it back, spit it out, gargle, we're talking basically a 30-second gargle, spit it out, just reducing the viral load. You know, there was even an inpatient trial of doing this, in hospitalized patients, and they had improved outcomes. The hospitals never offered a nasal spray or gargle at the bedside, never.

• 19:25Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 19:26Speaker 04

  In fact, the companies began to say, listen, this is the solution, masks aren't working, we need to use nasal sprays and gargles. So, they did the right thing. They did research. And one of the lead companies, the CEO is Nate Jones, and the company is Clear, this is xylitol.

• 19:41Josh Axe?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  Right? So, Nate embarks on a series of trials, and completes them, demonstrating reductions in viral load, and what have you, puts it on his website. The Federal Trade Commission sues Nate Jones personally and the Clear Corporation under the FTC COVID misinformation law. And immediately when COVID came out, within a few months, there was a COVID-19 misinformation Federal Trade Commission law. What? How did they know anything was missing? How do you judge? How do you judge information versus misinformation?

• 20:22Speaker 04

  But they knew within a matter of months that anything could violate anything they thought could violate. Wow. So Nate was sued, his company was sued, millions of dollars hemorrhaged out in legal fees. Nate refused to take the data down from his website because he's doing the studies, he's entitled to do that. And after four years in legal wrangling, the Federal Trade Commission with the new Trump administration and two FTC officials were released, they wrote Nate and said, "We're dropping everything." Wow. And look at Eric Nepewie. Eric Nepewie had a nutraceutical and supplement company, but Eric was saying, "Listen, vitamin D looks pretty solid."

• 21:06Speaker 04

  You mentioned vitamin D. Every single study of vitamin D was positive. Vitamin D, higher levels conferred improved survival. There was seven prospective studies showing vitamin D was actually preventive. It actually reduced the incidence of infection. Eric was sued by the Federal Trade Commission, and the award was astronomical, like, you know, in the tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars. Eric's a chiropractor, he goes, "I don't have that money." And so there had to be a negotiated settlement. The government had to be paid. So this went on and on. So the McCullough Protocol started with fresh air, nasal sprays and gargles, nutraceuticals and supplements.

• 21:47Speaker 04

  So for sure zinc, vitamin C, vitamin D, carcinogen. There was an over-the-counter antihistamine, anti-inflammatory famotidine, which is used for GI upset.

• 22:03Speaker 04

  Huge University of Virginia study, 20,000 people, showed that reduced severe disease. So that was in the McCullough protocol. So that started up front. Then we included a choice of antivirals. This is very important. Everyone wanted to focus on the antivirals. They wanted to skip everything up front, but a choice of antivirals. We said, okay, hydroxychloroquine has some activity. It was about 25% effect size. Ivermectin, when we had enough data, that made it to McCullough protocol. That was bigger. That had about a 50% effect size. And there was a very good trial, to quote, by Roche and colleagues, it was published in CHEST, the best pulmonary journal, where ivermectin

• 22:45Speaker 04

  continued through the hospital stay, reduced mortality by 50% compared to those who didn't get it.

• 22:50Josh Axe?

  I want to pause here. I'd love for you to just educate and walk us through a little bit more. What is hydroxychloroquine? How was it used historically? Why is it beneficial? And ivermectin, how it works as well?

• 23:01Speaker 04

  Again, I think there was an undue focus on the antivirals. I really do. Because we were in communication with doctors all over the world. I started a communication system on Google Groups. And there was a doctor in El Salvador who was treating patients, no hydroxy, no ivermectin, was using really anti-inflammatories, antihistamines, and going fine. And then there was a doctor in South Africa, Durban, South Africa, doing the same thing. So I knew they weren't essential. But yet, there was an undue focus on them. Well, hydroxychloroquine has been used for decades as malaria prevention. And then we used it extensively, and still do so, in rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus. So it's

• 23:45Speaker 04

  a wonderful drug. These are generic drugs. And remember, doctors use drugs off their original advertising label.

• 23:53Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 23:54Speaker 04

  We always do. In fact, we pointed to a 2018 FDA guidance on this. I remember being at a debate with the FDA and one of the medical societies. And we said, should doctors use drugs off advertising labels? And they said, for sure. Whatever drug company gets the first advertising label, which are advertising claims, they can't anticipate in the future what we're going to use drugs for. They can't. You know the drug that has the most off-label clinical uses, by far?

• 24:23Josh Axe?

  Well, listen, I'm going to tell you antidepressants are very high, but maybe that's not the high.

• 24:27Speaker 04

  Oh, no. You would never guess. It's actually Botox.

• 24:32Speaker 04

  Botox has

• 24:33Josh Axe?

  Oh, you I know numerous, you know, of course, reading headache migraine headaches.

• 24:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. So Botox has far and away the most off-label uses. But the point is, even I remember at our deliberations with the FDA and the 2018 guidance concur with this. Is that for sure, doctors should use drugs off the original advertising label when they're, you know, fulfilling an unmet need. Obviously, SARS-CoV-2 was an unmet need.

• 24:59Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 25:00Speaker 04

  So no company is going to have a pre-authorized, ready-to-go drug indicated to treat SARS-CoV-2. It's not going to be there.

• 25:09Josh Axe?

  Right.

• 25:09Speaker 04

  So hydroxychloroquine was the first and it was it had some efficacy against SARS-1, SARS, you know, SARS-1 virus in that first outbreak. And and it has some, you know, some general antiviral properties that were sufficient. And then a very important paper was published by Didier Raoul in France. And he's the most published microbiologist in the world. And it was given to Trump and said, listen, it looks like it's dropping some viral activity. So Trump came out and had a press conference. Anthony Fauci was there. This was in March. And Trump says, listen, this this could be a game changer. And I remember point blank, one of the reporters looked at Fauci and said, listen, if you had a patient in front of you with acute COVID-19, would you use hydroxychloroquine?

• 25:53Speaker 04

  And Fauci said, I would, you know, preferably in a research protocol. But sure, that was a reasonable answer. That was in March of 2021. By June of 2021, 2020, I'm sorry, it was March of 2020. By June of 2020, the FDA said categorically, do not use hydroxychloroquine. The FDA also did something very bizarre with hydroxychloroquine. It granted it an emergency use authorization. It was so bizarre. I looked at this. I said, wait a minute, emergency use authorization, you know, is a mechanism for new drug use. It's not full licensure. It's new drug use. But it's prior to this, it was for the military, like an EUA for the anthrax.

• 26:34Josh Axe?

  Obviously, yeah.

• 26:35Speaker 04

  Something like this. Like, you don't do an EUA for a generic drug that that we can, you know, use for anything, right? So why did it have an EUA? And then the FDA said, well, it should be restricted for use in the hospital. Well, Henry Ford did a big study of in-hospital use, over 1,000 patients, mortality reduction in those who got hydroxychloroquine. I know, because I was one of the reviewers on the paper. But by June, papers were coming in saying, wait a minute, it's dangerous. It's dangerous. There was a paper from Mayo Clinic, I recall, that says, dangerous. People can have heart rhythm problems with this.

• 27:13Speaker 04

  And, you know, hydroxychloroquine can affect an interval on the EKG called the QTC interval. And it's well-known, doctors understand this, it's rare, it's those who have the congenital QTC prolongation. There's actually a bigger risk in some African-Americans called G6PD deficiency, where they can develop a hemolytic anemia. But like any drug, we know the risks and benefits. Yeah. And we were using hydroxychloroquine, we were having success, but it didn't match the safety and success of ivermectin. So, once we had enough data on ivermectin, by December of 2020, ivermectin was in the McCullough protocol. We had published an update and reviews in cardiovascular medicine. This time, I had 56 authors on that paper. I had basically

• 27:57Speaker 04

  every major doctor in clinic who was treating COVID-19 to weigh in on what a protocol should be. And this was the Cadillac. We had ivermectin, which is derived from the soil in Japan, it has antiparasitic activities, clearly had antiviral activities, and was safer than acetaminophen. Wow. I mean, you know, no cardiac concerns whatsoever. There's some minor neurologic side effects that are very rare, but very, very safe product. And also robust to safety in the overdose situation. People got confused if they took, you know, double or triple the dose. I know my mom had COVID and she was in a senior home, and we got her the

• 28:38Speaker 04

  McCullough protocol. My wife, you know, kind of shuttled it in. Snuck it in. And we said, Mom, how are you doing? We called her every day. We're on pins and needles. Now she's elderly, she's had cancer in the past, she's very frail. And I said, Mom, we're trying to coach her through the medicines. And I said, well, that ivermectin medicine, can you grab the bottle and tell me how much more you have left in? She goes, oh, there's nothing left in here. It's like, whoops. So, Mom, I think on day three, just had a ivermectin overdose, and she's perfectly fine. So, the point is, it was a very versatile drug. I mentioned the Icahn study published, and she has 50% mortality reduction. I am here to tell you that every single high-risk individual...

• 29:24Speaker 04

  Should have received ivermectin on day one and for sure if they didn't get any home treatment, they should have received it in the emergency room and through the hospitalization. There was no reason not to do that. Yet, this is astonishing, in as we are getting success with ivermectin and the color protocol, the FDA launched a campaign and so did the American Medical Association. American Medical Association officially announced their campaign on their website. They said, "We have a campaign to abolish the use of ivermectin."

• 29:55Josh Axe?

  I mean, you remember this clip on Joe Rogan where, you know, CNN tries to shame him, they change the color of his face.

• 30:02Speaker 04

  Right.

• 30:03Josh Axe?

  And say, "Oh, he's taking horse dewarmer and just try to discredit him, the whole..."

• 30:06Speaker 04

  And Sanjay Gupta comes on, he actually has Sanjay Gupta come to the studio and he schools Sanjay Gupta. The FDA puts out a campaign that it's just a horse dewarmer would have you. This is, why would the FDA and the American Medical Association and the entire medical establishment, emails were sent around to these academic medical centers, "Do not use ivermectin. Do not use it." I testified in the...

• 30:32Josh Axe?

  Why did they do that? Why do you think?

• 30:35Speaker 04

  What would be your conclusion?

• 30:37Josh Axe?

  Well, I mean, my conclusion is, there is a, you know, financial gain from somebody if, you know, if more people are doing, here's the reality of, I know, marketing, it's scarcity. It's like, we're saying, "This is the only option. Here is your only option. Get this shot or take this pill." And so people don't use anything else and so if this is the one and only thing you can do, you're going to make more money doing. I mean, that would be my, one of my conclusions.

• 31:05Speaker 04

  I've already told you the Federal Trade Commission suppressed nasal sprays and gargles.

• 31:09Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 31:10Speaker 04

  I told you they suppressed vitamin D.

• 31:12Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 31:13Speaker 04

  The FDA said, "Do not use hydroxychloroquine." And Harvard and Mayo Clinic were writing papers that it wasn't safe.

• 31:19Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Speaker 04

  Suddenly it wasn't safe when they used it for decades. Now the FDA and AMA launching a war on ivermectin and Pierre Corey... Who was in our group of early treatment doctors and I, you know, told Senator Johnson to invite him to the Senate to testify and he did so. Great credit to Corey, by the way, not only in ivermectin but cortical steroids. You know, he published a book, it's the best title ever. It's called "The War on Ivermectin." But this got to be so bad that Robert Aptor, an ER doctor in Arizona, Mary Taylor Bowden, a ENT doctor in Houston, and Paul Merrick, one of the most published critical care doctors in the world, they sued the FDA. They said, "You're making false statements regarding ivermectin." And they prevailed. Wow.

• 32:04Speaker 04

  In the end, in the end, the lawyers for the FDA said, "Okay, we'll take down all our false material on ivermectin." Our FDA was putting out false information. Then we got to, so we had the antivirals, we had ivermectin, we had hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin. The Russians and the Japanese were using favapiravir, so favapiravir was in the original color protocol. Then later on, two years into it, we get Paxlovid, which is a nerfentrelavir and ritonavir, which is a repurposed HIV drug. And then we have molnupiravir, which is a MERC drug. So we had an array of antivirals to choose from. By November of 2020, we had monoclonal antibodies.

• 32:49Speaker 04

  The first one came out by Lilly. These were miracle drugs. I gave really, really sick patients monoclonal antibodies and they improved. And the studies were stupendous. Every time they worked, every time they worked. So we'd have monoclonal antibodies. There was a paper that came out in Medical Economics indicating the US government bought enough monoclonal antibodies to treat every single American. Yet, everywhere you looked around the country, there were shortages. Can't find them, can't find them, nobody had them. Ron DeSantis went nuts. He set up all these clinics. I remember this. Yes. Can't get them. Why wasn't every nursing home stocked with monoclonal antibodies? Why didn't every single sick patient in the ER receive monoclonal antibodies? They didn't.

• 33:33Speaker 04

  They didn't. Now, the next drug was corticosteroids. So doctors were examining corticosteroids and there were papers written, do not use corticosteroids. Steroids could worsen the infection. Well, wait a minute. How do we know? We use steroids for pneumococcal infections. We use steroids for shingles, which is varicella zoster. Suddenly, we can't use steroids for this infection. It's just taming down an excessive inflammatory response. So Ron Johnson, give him great credit, Senator of Wisconsin, was seeing this. And Pierre Corey is from Wisconsin, was in New York, but it ties to Wisconsin, knew Johnson. And Johnson held a hearing on this and said, listen, what are you seeing in treating patients? And Corey said, steroids are working.

• 34:15Speaker 04

  People with acute SARS-CoV-2, as we're treating them, steroids are a part of their inpatient care. They're working. At the time Corey testified in May of 2020, every single society in the world said, do not use corticosteroids. The FDA, the CDC, the NIH, the Infectious Society of America, the EMA in Europe, the TGA in Australia, every single one of them said, do not use steroids.

• 34:42Speaker 04

  Yet they were working. Within six months, every single one of those societies said, use steroids. Okay. So now monoclonal antibodies, we've gone through this suppression of treatment. Now we're down to simple things. Colchicine, which is a unique anti-inflammatory generic drug, it was dozens and dozens of studies, had positive data, and the largest prospective double-blind randomized placebo-controlled trial ever in outpatient COVID was the COOL Corona trial.

• 35:16Speaker 04

  It stopped early. Why has this stopped early? This is the best funded study ever. It was out of Montreal Heart Institute. Supposed to have 6,000 patients. They end up with 4,000 patients and so all the data trended towards being a positive study. Why was that stopped? And then we have antibiotics with doxycycline and azithromycin. A published study of deaths due to COVID showed probably at least a quarter of the pneumonia deaths due to COVID had an untreated bacterial secondary pneumonia.

• 35:47Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 35:48Speaker 04

  So antibiotics inappropriately used. Okay, now, now we're getting pretty deep into the McCullough protocol. We're down to antithrombotics. So antithrombotics, the McCullough protocol was the only protocol that said, listen, blood thinners and high-risk patients, put patients on blood thinners early. Don't wait till a blood clot in the hospital. And then when the Italians did the first autopsy study, and your doctors were scared to death of doing autopsies, they're afraid they were going to get, get the virus. They found the lungs were filled with blood clots. So it brought up the most interesting thing. There was a hyper-focus on the oxygen saturation. Do you know the oxygen saturation?

• 36:27Josh Axe?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 04

  And it was the most interesting thing because I was treating COVID patients. And I'd say, wait a minute, the oxygen saturation is pretty low, but you're not that short of breath. So there was a dissociation between the oxygen saturation and the work of breathing. It's very, very important. And I said, wait a minute, this is interesting. We don't see that with a consolidative pneumonia or something where the alveoli are filled with fluid. This is different. It must be the capillaries must be plugged with micro blood clots. And that's exactly what the Italians found. So that was the key role. And aspirin has a minor effect, but the prescription for blood thinners, bigger effect. That was a huge understanding. So what was going on was patients would go to the hospital. They're not that short of breath.

• 37:14Speaker 04

  They check an oxygen saturation, or normal should be 94%. They'd see somebody in the eighties and say, we need to put you on the ventilator.

• 37:22Josh Axe?

  Oh, wow.

• 37:23Speaker 04

  So people were paralyzed and sedated, unnecessarily put on the ventilator. They lost all their rights.

• 37:30Josh Axe?

  And many died because of it.

• 37:32Speaker 04

  And many died because of excessive intubation. So we published papers on this. There were three papers, Jackie Stone being one, Sabine Hazen being the other. And there was a third paper, and we've summarized it. Goukliaklis is the first author on the summary of the three papers regarding what's called permissive hypoxemia. Permissive hypoxemia is let the oxygen saturation go down, provided the work of breathing is acceptable and the mentation is fine. Don't intubate them. So I started to have patients, and this was amazing. I had a doctor in Virginia and her husband, who got really sick with COVID. They got the mucosal protocol, and let me tell you, they got everything. They got monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin, antibiotics, and the oxygen saturations went down and down and down.

• 38:15Speaker 04

  And by this time, they knew that the hospital was basically a death sentence. And so you know what they did? They survived with oxygen saturations in the 60s for a couple of weeks. They'd go down really low. Would they go in the kitchen to get something? I said, listen, how's the work of breathing? They said, well, we're working pretty hard, but you know, they were pretty fit at baseline. You know, you'll look to me like you're pretty fit. I guarantee you could, your work of breathing would be strong enough where you could manage with COVID, you could manage an oxygen saturation clearly in the 80s, 70s, and probably 60s for a prolonged period of time.

• 38:50Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 04

  It's called permissive hypoxemia. Do you know, to this day, the medical critical care infectious disease community completely is oblivious to all of this work.

• 39:03Josh Axe?

  Well, you know, it's so interesting. I, this is really, really, really on. I have a friend of mine who's an acupuncturist, and he, and he told me, he said, you know, the, this virus is very different from others in that most viruses I see affect the respiratory system. And he told me, this is affecting the blood. He said, it's causing, in Chinese medicine, they call it blood stasis. He said, it's sticking together, it's not moving well.

• 39:23Speaker 04

  Obviation, yeah.

• 39:24Josh Axe?

  Yeah, and he said, and this is really what I'm seeing. And so he would have people do things like neto kinase. He would have people do things like the specific tea more popular in Thailand called galangal. It's like a relative of ginger and turmeric, and just doing things to move. The blood, break the blood up, move just or uh dispersed blood clots and those sort of things. And so, um, you know, it's, it's interesting how sort of, you know, what, what you're doing in mainstream medicine and what, you know, these uh more, you know, natural or even ancient practitioners of the way that they practice sort of, you know, lines up there. But I think that, you know, that, that's something that I was, I was so frustrated going through COVID because I was working with people

• 40:08Josh Axe?

  and getting them on specific diet and supplements and seeing good results. I know you were seeing incredible results with all that you've done. I just thought, well, there are literally people dying right now because our government's supposed to be the greatest protector of the people is keeping this information from them. And it's just, it's sad.

• 40:26Speaker 04

  You hit it. I held some calls and I quickly assumed a leadership role because no one was, was taking the lead. You know, by March, I looked around, I said, surely Harvard's going to have a protocol or Michigan's going to have a protocol. And, you know, in 2019, I was, I lectured in two divisions at Harvard. I was an endowed visiting professor. I went to graduate school at University of Michigan. I graduated top of my class at Southwestern in Dallas. I did my residency at the top residency at the time, University of Washington in Seattle. I mean, I, I was well-trained as any physician that you'll ever talk to. And none of these marquee institutions were showing any leadership on this. I was contacted by a colleague at Harvard. I just visited him when I lectured there. And he said, you want to be a part of a consortium? I said, well, sure I will.

• 41:11Speaker 04

  What's it about? It's called, it's called Stop COVID. I said, terrific. Let's get after it. You guys have all the resources. You got the brain power. What are we going to do? We're going to actually observe. So they were going to observe all these outcomes. It was a big database activity, but there were no interventions. They didn't stop COVID. They didn't try a single intervention. So I was holding calls. And I talked to some doctors in Southeast Asia. I said, what are you guys doing for COVID? They said, you know, in our area, you know, it's very similar probably to what doctors did for the Spanish flu. We're using forms of poultices, aromatic substances.

• 41:54Speaker 04

  We're just trying to dilate the airways. We are trying to calm people down and get them through this. And we've noticed particularly in frail elderly patients that a panic can set in. And then, once they begin to panic, it's all over with. Then there's a vicious cycle. So we're keeping them calm. And we're trying to dilate, you know, arterioles, capillaries, and the bronchial airways. And they were using a whole variety of substances. So what I learned through the whole COVID pandemic is there was no specific drug or supplement or treatment that was either necessary nor specific. But it probably took about four to six things in combination to get through the illness.

• 42:38Speaker 04

  So nothing was essential. It was so interesting. It was clear though, I was studying who was dying with COVID. And the characteristic COVID death was someone who was at home. They were told to lock down. They couldn't see their family members. They received zero treatment, zero treatment. They called their doctor. Doctor said, there's no treatment for this. They received zero treatment to the point where they couldn't breathe anymore. They panicked. They called 911. And it's interesting, there's a paper published in JAMA from the paramedics about what people looked like when they called 911. They weren't ready for the mechanical ventilator. In fact, they had adequate blood pressure and heart rate. They were just panicking. Once they came into the hospital, it became a death sentence.

• 43:22Josh Axe?

  Well, and we even know, I mean, from a mindset standpoint, just even the benefits of taking something for the placebo effect versus thinking, well, there's no, there's no option. I, you know, I want to tell you, I have a, this is my wife's grandfather. He was diagnosed in Arizona, very healthy. Now, he was like, he was early 80s, golfing every day, seemed very, very healthy. And he went to the doctor, they diagnosed him with COVID, and he actually felt fine. And here was his reaction. He goes, oh, no. Oh, no. Like, he actually acted like, believed that he was going to die because of it. And he did.

• 44:03Josh Axe?

  Yeah, yeah. And this was back in 20, this would have been 2021, early 2021. And I should just share that to say, you know what? I think if he would have just gone to a doctor, they said, listen, you're gonna be fine. Let's take this one thing, whatever, and, and you're gonna be okay. I think he would have been okay. But there was just such of this massive level of just fear and despair.

• 44:24Speaker 04

  Was he offered anything?

• 44:25Josh Axe?

  No.

• 44:27Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 44:27Josh Axe?

  No, they put him on a ventilator, uh, eventually, and that was it.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  Well, there you go. I laid out the prototypic death, and I'm so sorry that happened in your, in your family. Uh, I was faced with this with my father. My father had dementia. He was in a nursing home. And he was one of the first to get COVID. It was April of 2020. So we're talking about the Wuhan strain. This was the severe strain. So, oh, your dad's got COVID. They moved him to a building and he was the only one there. So he had lots of, the poor nurses were wearing like hazmat suits at the time. The doctor in charge of the facility, he just left. He was just AWOL. And they said, Dr. McCullough, what do we do? I said, will you take orders from me? They said, yeah, we will. And this is in my first book, Courage to Face COVID-19. So here's my dad, he's got dementia. He had fallen and had a pelvic fractures.

• 45:15Speaker 04

  Pelvis is broken in three areas. So he has impaired mechanics. He's flat on his back and he has COVID. So the question on the table is, it's my dad. The government says, do nothing. The official government recommendations are, don't even try. And my dad's wishes were, I never want to be in the hospital. I never want to die in the hospital, and I'm sure not going on the ventilator. And he had stated that for years. So the question on the table is, do I follow the government and do nothing for my father? Of which doctors did nothing for their patients? Or do I take action? And so what I did is I told them, I said, open up the windows. Let's get some fresh air in there.

• 46:00Speaker 04

  They go, oh, we never do that. We never do that. I said, open the windows. He, he's gonna get cold. Put a sweater on him. I said, let's begin. Back then, we didn't know about the nasal sprays and gargles, and we didn't know about the steroids. It's very early on, but we started hydroxychloroquine. We started antibiotics, azithromycin. He was on some aspirin, which turned out to be beneficial. And very importantly, he had a pelvic fracture. I said, put him on lovenox. We put him on a blood thinner, injectable blood thinner. We did it for 30 days. And in the middle of it, my dad got so sick, his blood pressure was going down. They measured his serum sodium. Serum sodium should be rock stable at 140 millikovolins per liter.

• 46:43Speaker 04

  You're unbelievably thirsty at about 142 or 143. My dad was 151 on sodium. He was so unbelievably hypertonic. I said, we gotta give him an IV. And the poor nurses tried, they couldn't get an IV. So they actually just put it in the subcutaneous tissue in the abdomen, and they dribbled in IV fluid like you would for a little baby. So my dad got the IV fluid, and he survived COVID.

• 47:09Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 47:10Speaker 04

  Now, interestingly, in order to get out of COVID isolation, they said, well, he has to test negative. You know, my dad tested intermittently positive 17 times. So I learned with my dad, wait a minute, these PCR tests are positive forever after COVID?

• 47:25Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 47:25Speaker 04

  And you know, each time he was tested, he counted as a brand-new case of COVID. So do you know that there was a case count problem? There was no control over duplicates.

• 47:35Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 47:36Speaker 04

  So the number of cases were grossly exaggerated at any given time because of no control over duplicates.

• 47:43Speaker 07

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• 48:14Josh Axe?

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• 48:58Josh Axe?

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• 49:05Josh Axe?

  I want to transition into something here, and this is people that are still being affected by COVID. You know, we saw myocarditis, we've seen a lot of, I mean, I have seen and worked with so many people with long COVID, you know, just where major, major debilitating fatigue. What are your thoughts on what's causing long COVID? And what are some of the things that you've done to help patients with long COVID?

• 49:27Speaker 04

  The Biden administration and HHS spent a billion dollars on this. They had the long COVID program. A billion dollars, that's a massive amount of research on long COVID. Harvard got grants and all the major institutions got grants, they opened up long COVID clinics. And you know, not a single discovery, not a single new test, not a single protocol, not a single new drug or therapeutic, nothing for a billion dollars. How could that happen? Because they didn't assess the cause of the problem.

• 50:05Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 04

  So the virus is a ball. It has little spines on the surface. The spines are called the spike protein. The cause of long COVID is the spike protein is retained in the human body. That's the cause of long COVID. In not a single one of the Biden administration long COVID programs, did they measure the spike protein? Did they measure it in the bloodstream? It can be easily measured by an ELISA test. Nor do they measure antibodies against the spike protein? Nor do they assess tissue samples for the spike protein? Yet elsewhere in the world, it became obvious the cause of long COVID is the spike protein. Period. Everything else is secondary. Inflammation is secondary. Oxidative stress is secondary. Fatigue is secondary.

• 50:50Speaker 04

  People hypothesized that there's mitochondrial dysfunction. Well, yeah, it's all secondary to the spike protein. I mean, this is extraordinary. So a massive blunder was made in institutional medicine.

• 51:04Josh Axe?

  And what is the spike protein doing in the body? Like, when it's staying in there, not, not leaving? And why, why isn't it leaving?

• 51:11Speaker 04

  Well, influenza has a spike protein on it. It's called hemagglutinate. So influenza has got some spikes on it. Hemagglutinate and neuramidase. You get the flu, you clear that stuff out.

• 51:24Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 51:24Speaker 04

  The human enzymes can break down various proteins. So what is the spike protein? It's 1,200 amino acids. It's got about 12, got constellation side chains. Interestingly, and very spooky, the spike protein has 120 amino acid sequence that's identical to a glycoprotein on HIV.

• 51:45Josh Axe?

  Hmm.

• 51:46Speaker 04

  Identical. Identical. There's multiple papers showing some people who get COVID actually turn HIV positive. It wasn't that common. But that segment of the spike protein must have been exposed to the immune system. Then the Australians broke this open and they did a randomized trial of a COVID vaccine, exposing that part of the spike protein to subjects in Australia. They all turned HIV positive. All of them.

• 52:15Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 52:15Speaker 04

  All of them. They didn't have.

• 52:16Josh Axe?

  I've never even heard that. I mean, I guess this is.

• 52:19Speaker 04

  Yes. So you could, you can type it in. Australian vaccine trial turns every subject HIV positive. There it is. So there was something about the spike protein that was very unnatural. Like, why is it identical to a segment of HIV? Then all the information comes out of Wuhan, China.

• 52:38Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 04

  And the House Subcommittee Investigations on this. The spike protein was engineered. Engineered. It's not a natural protein. It's engineered.

• 52:51Speaker 04

  Dr. Ralph Barrick at University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, Anthony Fauci, Peter Daszak at the Eco Health Alliance, Shingling Li in Wuhan, they collaborated and they made an indestructible spike protein.

• 53:05Josh Axe?

  Now, Dr. Fauci, correct me if I'm wrong, in the 1980s, he was very involved with research around HIV.

• 53:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, he was, listen, he was the director of the National Immunology, Allergy Infectious Disease Institute. Now, you know, I was practicing at that time, I was a resident and then practicing. I don't think Fauci directed much in terms of the care of HIV. We, you know, we were coming up with our own approaches on how to deal with HIV. But, you know, he was thought to be certainly in a position where he was contributing, the NIH was contributing to knowledge HIV. But it turns out Fauci was clearly a co-conspirator in the creation of SARS-CoV-2 with this, this man-made spike protein. And in Barrick's papers in 2015 in Nature of Medicine and 2016, proceeds of National Academy

• 53:56Speaker 04

  of Science, note, I'm quoting them precisely, that he declares that they have created a chimeric, that is a man-made mixture of a bat and a human coronavirus, and he called it a SARS-like Wuhan Institute of Virology 1 co-virus. That's in the title, and it says it's poised for human emergence. In the title. And so they created a spike protein that allowed the virus to invade human pulmonary epithelial cells and invade the body. And it cannot be broken down. There are no known enzymes in the human body that break down the spike protein.

• 54:40Speaker 04

  And, and so the critical discovery was in 2021, Dr. Tanakawa in Japan, where they were working on trying to come up with something that could prevent COVID, and he found that nattokinase, a natural enzyme, dissolves the spike protein.

• 54:55Speaker 04

  In intact cells and cell lysate models.

• 54:58Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 54:59Speaker 04

  And it doesn't injure cells. It's rapidly taken in cells. Say, hallelujah. And then several months after that, another publication of another natural enzyme, bromelin, or a family of enzymes derived from pineapple, also dissolves the spike protein, but at different cleavage sites. The spike protein had to be the treatment target for long COVID and vaccine injury syndromes.

• 55:19Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 55:20Speaker 04

  A color protocol, base spike detoxification, met that need. It's the only protocol. Everybody else came up and said, well, treat inflammation. No, you'll never get rid of the spike protein that way. Oh, give low dose naltrexone, they'll feel better. No, you're not getting rid of the spike protein. Well, give them nicotine. It can kind of block the spike protein nicotinic receptor. Fine, but you're still not getting rid of the spike protein. So what we did is, and this is very important, we use the word base, that it's the base to get rid of the spike protein. And then you add other things on top. So sure, do I use nicotine for small fiber neuropathy?

• 55:56Josh Axe?

  What are your top five? If you're like, okay, there are five things, and maybe this is all, and I know you've created products and ingredients together, but what do you think are the five, in ranking order, most impactful things people can take for long COVID?

• 56:08Speaker 04

  Well, for sure. So yeah, I'm one of the founding members and the chief scientific officer of the Wellness Company. The Wellness Company has the lead product, which is called the Ultimates Bite Detox, and it's very well named. And it's the combination of nattokinase in high doses, bromelin, and curcumin. And the nattokinase and bromelin in preclinical studies, and now it's our clinical observation. People are getting better, and we're seeing every measure of spike protein go down clinically. Those are absolutely critical. Now, curcumin's interesting. It doesn't get rid of the spike protein, but that's even gone to human randomized trials. It blocks inflammation from the spike protein, almost directly.

• 56:51Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 04

  So nattokinase, bromelin, curcumin, and then there's many ingredients in the Ultimates Bite Detox. Black sativa. A variety of other kind of botanical extracts, about four of them. And then there's some necessary things for absorption. So curcumin needs pepparine or black pepper. Absorption, selenium at a low dose works and helps absorption. So Ultima Spike Detox, kind of for sure needed. You can look at it, buy the separate ingredients and buy, you know, you could buy six different bottles and accomplish the same thing, but it's just needed.

• 57:25Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 57:26Speaker 04

  And it was copyrighted to my name, but not patented intentionally because too many people need it.

• 57:31Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 57:32Speaker 04

  And so if you go on Amazon right now, you type in Spike Detox, you'll see my concept everywhere.

• 57:37Josh Axe?

  I bet.

• 57:38Speaker 04

  Everywhere, all over. So that's absolutely needed. So beyond the Ultima Spike Detox, what's the next most important drug? And I would say because this is a very serious outcome that happens, particularly in the vaccine injured, and that's cardiac arrest. What's needed is a drug that's mandatory in the guidelines for heart inflammation and inflammation around the heart, and that's Colchicine. Mandatory. It's not optional. So every person who's had any type of chest symptoms at all in long COVID or in vaccine injury has to be on Colchicine. Mandatory. And so this is in the guidelines, in European guidelines to 2016. I can't tell you how many patients with long COVID and vaccine injury, the doctors have never prescribed Colchicine.

• 58:23Josh Axe?

  Well, and how does this relate to myocarditis? Because one of the things I know is mortality rates from acute myocarditis and heart failure were declining. And then we saw this increase on this, you know, we have a graphic here we're going to show here as well.

• 58:38Speaker 04

  Good observation.

• 58:38Josh Axe?

  That's really, you know, just.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  Right, well, there's, there's, is there's somewhat of a false narrative out there where the American College of Cardiology has said, wait a minute, there's a lot more myocarditis from the infection than there is from the vaccine. It's like, well, how do they determine that? Well, I can tell you, on people who die with COVID-19, no vaccine, the virus is not found in the human heart. It's not found in the heart. Um, what was going on is when people are hospitalized with COVID, a whole bunch of blood tests are done and one of them is called troponin. And the troponin, which is elevated in about a third of sick people in the hospital anyway, no matter what form of pneumonia, that was triggering the ICD codes. And when they do a big data poll, say, well, they must have myocarditis.

• 59:24Speaker 04

  So that whole literature is a false literature that says, oh, they have myocarditis due to the virus. There wasn't a single adjudicated case, not a single MRI confirmed case of myocarditis with the virus alone. And so what was happening in 2020, we were so scared, all the universities had big myocarditis screening programs because we know myocarditis, if this happens, if athletes go on the field, the surge of adrenaline can trigger cardiac arrest. So the Big Ten, and I went to a Big Ten school at Michigan, they had a huge screening program. They screened thousands and thousands of athletes who got COVID. And in 2020, about 20% of athletes got COVID. And they looked for myocarditis in thousands of that. They got MRIs, EKGs, echos, troponins.

• 1:00:08Speaker 04

  They came up with, they believe 36 possible cases, none of them confirmed, no hospitalizations, no deaths, none. And that paper was published by Daniels and colleagues in JAMA. So after 2020, all the colleges and athletic programs dropped all the concern regarding myocarditis due to the infection. If this tells you anything, okay. Then we bring in the vaccines. And there was a slide, uh, that was an internal meeting at the NIH, CDC, and FDA in October of 2020, before the vaccines are released. It says anticipated side effects, myocarditis, anticipated. They knew what was going to happen because the messenger RNA targets the heart.

• 1:00:53Josh Axe?

  So one of my questions for you is, in looking at all this data, working with all these patients, is there a difference? When you're talking about mRNA and then, I also want to hear about spike protein in relation to this. Is there a difference between getting?

• 1:01:10Josh Axe?

  The COVID vaccine and being exposed that way versus getting it naturally?

• 1:01:16Speaker 04

  Yes, in two ways. With the infection, Bruce Patterson, who formed a company over on this, Ncell DX, has clearly demonstrated with the infection, just the tip of the spike protein gets in the body, it's called the S1 segment, and the body actually takes it inside cells. There's very little free-floating S1 segment, but it's everywhere with the infection. Deeper infections, serious hospitalized infections, untreated patients, more S1 segment. As a indirect proxy of the spike protein exposure, we measure antibodies against the spike protein. It's very important. There's a paper, Barham and colleagues, who'd studied this. Those who just had the infection, no vaccine, and they have some symptoms, the

• 1:01:59Speaker 04

  average antibody titer in what's called binding units per ml of an infection, no vaccine, that numbers round about 2,000. Okay. Every study under the sun shows if you're under 1,000 on the spike antibody levels, great prognosis. Probably prior spike exposure, you're perfectly fine. Normal is less than 0.8. And in my practice, I've tested thousands of patients, I have maybe three people less than 0.8 that have not been touched by either the virus or vaccine. The average person who takes the vaccine on that same test, 11,000. So, and then there's a paper by Brogna and colleagues that actually did look for spike

• 1:02:42Speaker 04

  protein in the blood, using mass spec, and found in Pfizer and Moderna, there is full-length spike protein, the S1 and the S2 segment, and it trimerizes in threes. It's essentially indestructible. Pfizer and Moderna inserted two proline insertions to keep the spike protein open and indestructible, and they replaced, in their messenger RNA, they replaced every natural urocell. Messenger RNA should be broken down in a matter of minutes or hours. They replaced every urocell with a synthetic nucleoside analog called pseudo- uridine. The Nobel Prize was won by Karik and Weisman for the discovery of pseudo- uridine nation.

• 1:03:24Speaker 04

  They made Pfizer and Moderna, Master and J R N A's health itself indestructible, and it's producing a spike protein that if we do nothing about this, stays in the body conceivably forever.

• 1:03:36Josh Axe?

  Wow. I had an uncle who, we encouraged not to do this, but he did. He was working at the University of Maryland, and ended up getting the booster, the second one. And then three weeks later was just running a train. He was 60 years old, very fit, very fit. And had a major cardiac event. And it was three weeks later. I mean, it was, you know, and it's so hard because there are, you know, we see this in medicine today, whether it be everything from autism to long COVID to a number of things, of the science saying, well, we don't know. There's no cause. We don't want, but almost like we don't want to, we don't want to look in the first place.

• 1:04:19Josh Axe?

  And then you have all of these people that have experienced things with their family members coming for saying, listen, something's not right here. Something's wrong. We saw this sort of correlation. For you, what do you think the right path is medically? When you have a large group of people saying, I think there's an issue here. And what has been your experience? I almost don't know what I'm, I kind of know what I'm asking, but my point is, I'd love to get your thoughts on that because I think that mainstream medicine so often today just turns a blind eye, completely looks away from what people are saying and experiencing.

• 1:04:54Speaker 04

  We have to talk about things. What happened during COVID is we were banned from meetings. All the medical meetings stopped. I was at a major university medical center that we got a memo saying, listen, you can't have more than 10 people in a room. We stopped having grand rounds. I mean, I haven't seen, since the onset of COVID, I haven't seen some of my colleagues since that time. It's five years later. We don't talk anymore. We have to talk through this. And what we've seen, what you're talking about is called gaslighting. Gaslighting. That is, people say, listen, I took the shots. I developed a blood clot. It's just, you know, I was fine before this. And the doctors will say, we don't know what caused that, but it's not the vaccine.

• 1:05:39Josh Axe?

  Right.

• 1:05:39Speaker 04

  Wait, wait a minute. If you don't know what causes it, how do you know it's not the vaccine? So the worst vignette that I'm aware of is my co-author of my book, my two books, John Leake, is in Dallas. He's considered the world's greatest historian, and he had a girlfriend. And she, years ago, and she lived on the Channel Islands of the UK. So she takes these shots, and then she notices redness in her arm, and her lymph nodes start to swell, and they get more swollen and more swollen. It's clearly an acute kind of lymphoblastic effect, or lymphoproliferative effect of the vaccine that's growing. And she goes, "I'm really getting scared." So they airlifted her from the Channel Islands into London,

• 1:06:22Speaker 04

  and she's at one of the major hospitals, and she's seeing all these doctors, and they're taking biopsies, and they're coming in and making proclamations. I said, "Listen, we've never seen this before. It's never happened before in our experience. But we know one thing: It's not due to the vaccine."

• 1:06:42Speaker 04

  She goes, "I just took it. I was fine before this." But the doctors are convinced it's not the vaccine. This thing continues to grow. It crushes her carotid artery. She has a stroke, and now she's permanently disabled.

• 1:06:54Josh Axe?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:06:55Speaker 04

  No. So this is the problem when it comes to vaccines. My second book is called "Vaccines: Mythology, Ideology, and Reality." Vaccines throughout three centuries have essentially become a religion in medicine.

• 1:07:09Josh Axe?

  And this is like what we were talking about earlier. You had this whole thing with, you know, where cocaine's okay, tobacco's okay. What about vaccines?

• 1:07:18Speaker 04

  Well, how can this be? Well, in our book, we outline this 300-year history of, for infectious diseases, it had to do with the fact that there was tremendous fear of infectious diseases. And boy, did we see that with COVID.

• 1:07:29Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:30Speaker 04

  Did you see people living in bubbles? The fear, the human fear of infectious diseases as an archetypal fear, I don't think any of us... Estimated it to be what it is. Yeah. Right? So there's this archetypal fear of infectious diseases. Bold claims made by vaccine developers, "Oh, just take a shot and you're safe and you'll get your freedoms back," and what have you. And so lots of bold unsupported claims, tremendous money and power. Every time it went back to smallpox, all the way through, you know, the campaigns for polio and measles and etc. This has been going on a long time. It's essentially a religion. It's a religion.

• 1:08:14Speaker 04

  And believe it or not, it's such a strong religion that if anybody questions a vaccine or shows any hesitancy to get one, they're considered to have a mental disease called vaccine hesitancy. And in the peer-reviewed literature, there's 20 different psychometric instruments to assess vaccine hesitancy. Like, you've got a mental problem, you're not accepting a vaccine. Wow. So, and our CDC, by the way, the World Health Organization says one of the single greatest threats to public health is vaccine hesitancy. That's how important they think it is. So I was asked to lecture at Chautauqua, which is one of the most, you know, prized lecturing venues that any public figure could have.

• 1:08:59Speaker 04

  I mean, the Kennedys and the Roosevelts and so many people have lectured at Chautauqua. It's the heart of American liberalism. In fact, you may have recalled Salman Rushdie was stabbed onstage at Oh, wow. At Chautauqua, it's in Western New York a few years ago. So I was asked to lecture at Chautauqua. And I thought about this. I said, "Boy, I'm going to really lower the boom on these vaccines. You know, I'm going to present the data as they exist." But I said, "I have to do it in some context of understanding of how could the medical community be completely wrong on an issue, participate in something harmful themselves, and how could this go on to their patients and the public?"

• 1:09:43Speaker 04

  Are there any examples? So the first example I gave was called "The First Great Cocaine Epidemic," from 1860 to about 1920. Virtually every drug company made their first products were cocaine products. Merck and Warner Lambert and Pfizer and all of them, they were derivatives of cocaine. That it was in every elixir. Halsted, the father of modern surgery at Johns Hopkins, became a brutal cocaine addict. Sigmund Freud was a cocaine addict. Doctors were self experimenting. They were publishing on the wonders of cocaine in the journals. It was in Coca-Cola. It was in Qian Tui wine.

• 1:10:28Speaker 04

  It was sold in drugstores all over. The entire country got hooked on cocaine and the lead addicts were doctors and nurses. They're the lead addicts. It was so bad that Woodrow Wilson, 1913, said, listen, I'm taking cocaine away. Coca-Cola voluntarily pulled it out. Pembroke wines took it out of county wines. The doctors would not give this up. It was horrible. And I looked in JAMA, the lead medical journal at the time, with hundreds and hundreds of manuscripts on the benefits of cocaine. There was one paper of concern. One. One.

• 1:11:05Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 1:11:06Speaker 04

  It was an Irish doctor. Okay. Finally, there was the Dangerous Narcotics Act and others. The law had to take it away from the doctors. The doctors could not police themselves and the nurses too. We say doctors and nurses are all together. First example, they caused great harm. They caused addiction. Indoubtedly, they caused death to themselves, their patients, and the public at large. The medical community did this for 60 years. Next segment of time, what I called in my lecture, Smoke Fest. Smoke Fest. You get to about 1920, virtually every doctor, nurse, and anybody with any money in this country smoked.

• 1:11:45Josh Axe?

  I remember my grandmother and her sharing with me this, her doctor... Prescribed or recommended she smoke for weight loss.

• 1:11:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:11:53Josh Axe?

  So this was, yeah.

• 1:11:54Speaker 04

  Well, RGI Reynolds, Philip Morris, an American tobacco company, they all had physician marketing campaigns. Doctors' offices were outfitted with cigarettes. They handed out cigarettes to their patients. The doctors proclaimed they were safe, that they, they had calming effects, that this brand had less throat irritation than that brand. And this went on and on and on and on. 1949, Sir Austin Bradford Hill, an epidemiologist in England, and Richard Dahl start making their observations. They do a cross-sectional study. They go, listen, I think smoking is causing lung cancer. They present their data

• 1:12:34Speaker 04

  to the Medical Research Council. No, no, smoking could not be related to lung cancer. The black smoke going into the lungs couldn't be related to the blackened tumors coming out of the lungs. No. Do more research. So they do the British physician smoking study. They do another three years convincingly. The conclusions of that study, by the way, is at least half of the deaths were smoking related, among physicians. They present the data. No, it can't be the case. Austin Bradford Hill gets tuberculosis. He kind of fades away. He gets sick. But Dahl persists. He is smeared. He's discredited. He's debunked. The tobacco companies go after him. No, he's not a credible doctor anymore, what have

• 1:13:19Speaker 04

  you. Okay. The United States, it keeps rolling. No, there's no concerns. None of the presidents, none of the surgeon general, the NIH shows no concern over this. 1964, Luther Terry, surgeon general, produces the Surgeon's General Report on Smoking. Smoking causes lung cancer and all kinds of harms. He calls all the chiefs of medicine to Washington. So, listen, I've got a report. The doctors are all smoking. They show up, all the guys from Harvard, what have you. He's, I've got bad news for you. Smoking is harmful. They reject it. They reject the Surgeon's General Report. It's not until 1978 before the American Medical Association comes out with their first pamphlet, The Harms of Smoking.

• 1:14:05Speaker 04

  Not till the 1990s do we have the tobacco settlement.

• 1:14:08Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:09Speaker 04

  So now we've got a 60-year period of time with cocaine, clearly bad. The doctors were on the wrong side of history. They don't say they're sorry. And there's never any historical reconciliation. The same thing with smoking. The doctors never go back and say they're sorry. Or there's never papers written about how we were wrong on smoking. Now, enter vaccines. The vaccines have amplified, amplified, amplified over three centuries. We get to 1986 and we have the Vaccine Injury Compensation Act. There's so many kids with problems after the diptheria, tetanus, pertussis vaccines, and measles, and mumps, and rubella vaccines. The parents are up in arms.

• 1:14:50Speaker 04

  The vaccine companies basically go to the Reagan administration and HHS and say, "Listen, if we don't get some liability protection, we're not going to produce our products." And so, HHS writes, and Congress writes the Vaccine Injury Compensation Act and said, "Listen, the vaccine companies cannot be sued directly."

• 1:15:10Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 1:15:11Speaker 04

  "We will have our own injury compensation program for those harmed by the vaccine." And in the 1986 legislation, it says vaccines have unavoidable harms. It says unavoidable harms. If we mass vaccinate the country, some people are going to be harmed.

• 1:15:31Speaker 04

  And what this is about is a religion. The religion, and we outline this in our book, which is a New York Times bestseller.

• 1:15:39Speaker 04

  The religion goes like this.

• 1:15:43Speaker 04

  Humans are susceptible to infectious diseases inherently, inherently. But through the brilliance of science and vaccinology, through the brilliance of mankind, man can improve upon God's creation.

• 1:15:59Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:59Speaker 04

  Man outdoes God with vaccines. But the vaccines aren't perfect. So for them to work, for this really to work, everyone must take them. Everyone, without exception. And if some people are injured, or disabled, or even die due to the vaccine effort, they should accept it for the greater good of humanity.

• 1:16:26Josh Axe?

  Hmm.

• 1:16:26Speaker 04

  That's vaccine ideology.

• 1:16:28Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:28Speaker 04

  It's in the minds of people. So you talk to people about vaccines and say, listen, I'm concerned about large numbers of people dying with the COVID-19 vaccines. Well, they'll say, listen, a lot more died with COVID. Oh, we can trade lives. So someone dying with COVID is kind of the same as someone dying with the vaccine. Wait a minute, someone who gets COVID is deep into COVID with a lot of variables, you pointed out, comorbidities and other things. Someone who takes a COVID vaccine is perfectly healthy.

• 1:16:58Josh Axe?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:16:59Speaker 04

  No one should take a shot, no one who's perfectly healthy should take a preventive shot and lose their life.

• 1:17:06Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:07Speaker 04

  In your world, no one should take a preventive supplement and lose their life.

• 1:17:13Josh Axe?

  Right.

• 1:17:13Speaker 04

  Should that be okay? No. And so this has basically amplified now to such a crucible. We're at the same point as with cocaine and smoking. We're at a crucible now where Rasmussen, which does valid population-based surveys, has done several surveys. One indicating 56% of Americans believe the COVID-19 vaccines are responsible for large losses of life.

• 1:17:47Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 1:17:48Speaker 04

  56. And then they've just done one among those who took the vaccine. And of those who took the COVID-19 vaccine, 10% said, I have a serious medical problem due to this vaccine. That's what the public believes.

• 1:18:02Josh Axe?

  I mean, that's incredibly high, incredibly.

• 1:18:05Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. I mean, I can tell you, a side effect that was 1% would be high. Can you imagine 10%? And so the medical literature has 4,000 peer-reviewed papers. I've published a lot of those.

• 1:18:17Josh Axe?

  I mean, the number of people with long COVID alone is just, you know, is just crazy.

• 1:18:21Speaker 04

  Long COVID was bad enough as it was. In 2020, it clearly wasn't due to the vaccine. Those cases are kind of over with. Now we've got this blend, and in some countries, 95% of people took the shots. In Australia, for instance, virtually everyone took the shots, then they got COVID. So they have a baseline spike protein load in the body, then they get the infection. So it obviously must be a blend of the infection and the vaccine because they both load the body with spike protein. So an important paper from Dijxner and colleagues, published in Germany, 42,000 Germans, they concluded 70% of all long COVID is really due to the vaccine. So it's a vaccine injury syndrome. It's a, and so in our papers, we call it a post-acute

• 1:19:05Speaker 04

  sequelae, whether you have the infection or the vaccine. But people are walking around with the spike protein, and if they don't undergo some form of spike detoxification, the lead is now the chondrocyte brumlin, they literally don't get rid of it.

• 1:19:19Josh Axe?

  Are you interested in functional nutrition tips to burn fat, reduce inflammation, improve your brain and energy levels, and heal naturally? Then I want to encourage you to listen to my friend, Dr. Dave Jockers podcast, the functional nutrition podcast. This podcast is designed to help you with easy, actionable steps to improve your nutrition and lifestyle, understand your lab work, and address the root cause factors that may be driving up inflammation in your body. Now, I've been friends with Dr. David Jockers for 20 years, and he's truly a world expert in functional nutrition, cellular healing, and so much more. If you want to learn the best nutrition and natural healing tips, tune into the Dr. Jockers functional nutrition podcast on Apple iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever you can listen to podcasts worldwide.

• 1:20:06Speaker 04

  So you may ask the question, what else helps the body get rid of spike protein?

• 1:20:10Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:11Speaker 04

  And importantly, what helps the body get rid of messenger RNA if it's indestructible? In my view, there's two non-medical, non-supplement things that do work. One is sweating, very important. Hannah and colleagues demonstrated messenger RNA is in breast milk. She did two studies on this. This is horrible. You know, women who took the vaccine are breastfeeding their babies, and the messenger RNA is coming right out of the milk into the baby. But this is an important lead. Breast milk is modified sweat. So the messenger RNA must come out in sweat. It must. So sweating, very important. And in my clinical experience, I have patients, listen, I said, go sweat, go work out and sweat, go in a saunas and

• 1:20:56Speaker 04

  sweat like a pig. And I think that's the reason why, after the initial wave of sudden deaths in the athletes, which occurred, if you saw these reels in Europe of the athletes going down with cardiac arrest on the field, that's over with now. But there was a paper published by Polycretus and myself, clearly showing that was a vaccine effect. After that, the athletes seemed to be fine. There was only one NFL player that went down, and that was Damar Hamlin.

• 1:21:19Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:20Speaker 04

  And Tucker Carlson had me on, and I said, listen, I need to know if he took the vaccine. Myself and another cardiologist, Dr. Gukun, we wrote the Buffalo Bills doctors, and we said, listen, You know, we looked at this. It's a vaccine cardiac arrest. It's not because he tackled somebody hard. Yeah. Uh, get him on, uh, McCullough protocol, spike detox and Colchicine, and he probably doesn't need an ICD if his ventricle is okay. And that's been my experience now. So people don't need defibrillators. Now, another vaccine cardiac arrest was Uwe Chuchu, a player for USC. They had two vaccine cardiac arrests. They had Bronny James and this guy. He got an ICD, which I think was unnecessary. And then the clincher was, uh, Pilot Snow. I don't know if you heard the story of Pilot Snow, but he landed an American Airlines, uh, a

• 1:22:03Speaker 04

  flight about six weeks after he took a COVID vaccine. People get off the plane. He has a cardiac arrest in the jetway. And there's a story called the miracle of Pilot Snow, which is really a miracle that the poor stewardesses are scrambling and he's, he's, he's out. I talked to Snow. He said, I was out. He goes, I literally was saying goodbye to people. And I was, that's it. It was lights out. The miracle of Pilot Snow is one of the stewardesses called 911 and there's paramedic units, two of them circulating at DFW. The miracle was the unit happened to be at the gate next door, helping some lady with her illness. So they ran over and even being that close, it still took six defibrillations to get Snow back. But they got him back. Uh, he's neurologically fine. He was in Dallas Hospital.

• 1:22:48Speaker 04

  He pulls up his, his hospital gum where they fried him with the defibrillator pads and he does a video. He goes, this is what the vaccine did to me. Hmm. He, I mean, he came out hard. Wow. And he got a defibrillator and I had a chance to meet him and examine him. And I asked him an important question. He had McCullough protocol, detoxification, uh, and Colchicine. And I asked him, I said, has your defibrillator gone off? He was, no. And so typically, when you have a cardiac arrest from a myocardial infarction or cardiomyopathy, the chances of the defibrillator going off within a few years. Can be as high as 50% or 25%, but there hasn't been any repeat arrests.

• 1:23:27Josh Axe?

  Hmm.

• 1:23:27Speaker 04

  All these cardiac arrests that were saved, they haven't had a repeat arrest.

• 1:23:31Josh Axe?

  Hmm.

• 1:23:32Speaker 04

  So I, I think actually this wave, people aren't taking the shots anymore. So I think the wave of the cardiac arrests is now essentially over. And we're concerned about a problem called subclinical myocardicitis. That is, they weren't acutely sick to begin with. They didn't have an immediate cardiac arrest and now the spike protein is just built up in them. And so occasionally we'll, we'll see cardiac arrests. I think the athletes have fared okay because of sweating and getting it out. And the other thing, by the way, is universal. Every study done on this is universally positive and that's hyperbaric oxygen.

• 1:24:05Josh Axe?

  Hmm.

• 1:24:06Speaker 04

  And it may be going in a hyperbaric chamber, getting a hundred percent oxygen at higher pressures. It may actually denature the spike protein and enable it to be cleared from the body.

• 1:24:14Josh Axe?

  Wow. Wow, that's amazing. I'm a huge fan of, of hyperbaric oxygen therapy. I had a spinal infection and ended up getting in one almost every day for three months in a, in a hard chamber. And was incredible.

• 1:24:28Speaker 04

  How'd you get it? Spinal tap or?

• 1:24:30Josh Axe?

  No, I actually, I actually got it from a stem cell injection in my disc.

• 1:24:36Speaker 04

  Oh, no.

• 1:24:36Josh Axe?

  It got infected. Yeah, it was like a one in, I looked this up on, you know, one in like half a million chance. I mean, it was incredibly rare, but uh, yeah. But um, I, I read several studies on dyskitis, on osteomyelitis and hyperbaric oxygen therapy. And it was from what I just found the, by far the most effective thing to.

• 1:24:54Speaker 04

  I'm not an expert on hyperbaric. Now I refer to Al Johnson in Dallas, who is an expert and he's, has one, runs a wonderful center. Very positive data on hyperbaric, on wound healing. So it's, it's indicated for diabetic foot ulcers, what have you. Neurocognitive. So he sees patients who, all the athletes have had concussions.

• 1:25:12Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:13Speaker 04

  And examines them before and after. Long COVID and vaccine injury, universally positive.

• 1:25:20Speaker 04

  I mean, this is very exciting. The reason why I'm excited about it is because we're trying the best we can with oral supplements and with prescription drugs.

• 1:25:29Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:30Speaker 04

  But we can only go so far. But let me round out the conversation. Besides McCullough protocol, base spike protein detoxification, for any cardiac or chest symptoms, culture seeing mandatory for a year. If there are any craniofacial syndromes, headaches, loss of taste and smell, or hearing, skin rashes, persistent pulmonary findings, I am suspicious of what's called a SARS-CoV-2 reservoir. That is, the virus is still alive in the body, replicating. Several studies have shown this in those circumstances. Their patients, in my view, need prolonged ivermectin. They go on full dose ivermectin for 90 days. Patients with small fiber neuropathy, brain fog, better term is loss of mental clarity. One study

• 1:26:14Speaker 04

  from Switzerland, and a lot of clinical experience, suggests nicotine. Giving a nicotine patch, seven milligrams, not full dose 21, but seven, you know, do it for about 90 days, has a role. Patients who are ANA positive, arthritis symptoms, signs of autoimmunity, hydroxychloroquine.

• 1:26:30Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 1:26:31Speaker 04

  Those are the, those are the go-to drugs. People have tried plasma exchange, IVIG, stem cells, low dose naltroxone. I've tried them all too. I don't think they work.

• 1:26:42Josh Axe?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:43Speaker 04

  Boy, complications. I've had patients go for stem cells, get a blood clot right in the same arm as a stem cell. It just...

• 1:26:49Josh Axe?

  Yeah, it doesn't make sense to instem cell for that. I mean, you know, I think, you know, based on, obviously, there's a level of personalization. I think one of the things that happens often in both natural medicine and mainstream medicine is there's so much of a cookie cutter approach. People like, everybody be able to get on keto or carnivore, everybody should be vegan, everybody should take metformin, everybody should take a statin drug versus, there needs to be a level of personalization for everybody.

• 1:27:15Speaker 04

  Can we talk about just a few things on diet? I know you're

• 1:27:18Josh Axe?

  I'd love to.

• 1:27:19Speaker 04

  A greater diet expert than I am. But for long COVID and vaccine injury syndromes, these are my observations.

• 1:27:26Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:27Speaker 04

  I tell, this is why I tell patients, no alcohol.

• 1:27:31Josh Axe?

  Yep.

• 1:27:31Speaker 04

  None.

• 1:27:32Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:33Speaker 04

  Alcohol and spike protein don't go together. The spike protein is in the human heart. It causes heart failure. It causes cardiac arrest. Alcohol is a cardiac toxin to the heart muscle.

• 1:27:45Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:47Speaker 04

  It's gotta go.

• 1:27:47Josh Axe?

  I totally agree.

• 1:27:48Speaker 04

  I tell people, no alcohol.

• 1:27:50Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:50Speaker 04

  None, zero. And, and the heart's not going to get better. This doesn't end. It was better. The second thing for both acute COVID and long COVID, in my first book, I credit, I credit Yvette Lozano in Dallas, who's one of the first to study this and lots of publications on this. We don't want to feed the spike protein related inflammation, whether it's SARS-CoV-2 or just the vaccine, with sugar and starch.

• 1:28:15Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:16Speaker 04

  It's just, I said, I tell people, the worst thing to do is eat a Cinnabon or to eat a donut, whatever you have. You don't, you know, a diet like this is going to worsen the long COVID syndrome. Yvette was, it was literally, you know, there was such a tight relationship between fasting glucose and hemoglobin A1C and outcomes in this, in these pandemic syndromes that we're really tight on. I tell people, I say, listen, your bread eating days are done.

• 1:28:44Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:44Speaker 04

  And we've got to really stay away from those. Now, and people say, well, should I go all the way to a ketogenic diet? Now, in my practice, I do have one patient with a cardiac arrest on a ketogenic diet in the study.

• 1:29:00Josh Axe?

  Yeah, there are certain cases.

• 1:29:01Speaker 04

  It's just, mm, mm, mm.

• 1:29:02Josh Axe?

  But.

• 1:29:03Speaker 04

  So this is my brief dietary advice.

• 1:29:07Speaker 04

  In the pandemic and in general, thinking that for diet, we have many, many goals for diet. So, uh, coming out of the pandemic, everything's amplified, but even before, you and I are going to pass away at some point in time. Your chances and my chances in general of dying of heart disease is about a 40% fraction. Cancer is about a 40% fraction and death from other causes is another 20% fraction. So if you're going to orient diet, you'd want to handle everything. So you'd want the diet to be kind of, you know, cardiac preventive, but also cancer preventive.

• 1:29:46Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:46Speaker 04

  And you clearly don't want to contribute to diabetes and sleep apnea. You want to be nice and thin and handsome as you are the rest of your life and what have you. So you want to accomplish a ton of goals with diet. So you want it to be anti-inflammatory and you want it to be anti-allergic and you want it to do all those things. So considering the full breadth of what you're trying to occur in diet and that diet is both healthy choices, which I think is a reasonable fraction of what we're doing and portion control, both.

• 1:30:19Josh Axe?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:20Speaker 04

  Both.

• 1:30:20Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:21Speaker 04

  So healthy choices, portion control. And then for people trying to maintain weight or lose weight, you have diet, which I think is about 80% of the weight equation, and then you have exercise.

• 1:30:31Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:32Speaker 04

  Which is about 20% of the weight equation. So you have that to consider. Having thought about all this with tight portion control and allowing hunger, I mean, it's very important for people to all reconnect with their hunger.

• 1:30:45Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:45Speaker 04

  I have obese patients who have told me, I said, when's the last time you were hungry? Oh, probably years ago. They're never hungry.

• 1:30:52Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:53Speaker 04

  Like, right now, I haven't had anything today because I was hustling here to see you in Nashville.

• 1:30:57Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:57Speaker 04

  I'm hungry. That's a natural sensation.

• 1:31:00Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:01Speaker 04

  So we should allow hunger and with good portion control. But the healthy choices, I would say, this is what the human body needs, in my view. They need high-quality sources of protein.

• 1:31:11Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:12Speaker 04

  In this order, fish, beans, nuts, egg whites, nonfat dairy, occasional chicken and beef. I personally have pork out of the equation.

• 1:31:21Josh Axe?

  Yeah, I don't recommend pork at all.

• 1:31:23Speaker 04

  The genetic vaccines have been used since 2017.

• 1:31:26Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:26Speaker 04

  Okay, so it's a pyramid. Fish, beans, nuts, egg whites, nonfat dairy, and occasional chicken and beef, occasional. And then fresh foods and vegetables, unlimited, in my view. So that means there's three things to get rid of in the diet, the three S's. Sugars. Starches, that means nothing made out of flour, no rice, no potatoes. You don't need them. Everybody wants to negotiate starch. Everybody does.

• 1:31:53Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:54Speaker 04

  Say, Doctor, can I have this? Can I leave that? Starch, by the way, is 60% of calories in the, in the American diet. So if you get rid of starch, immediately there's weight loss. Every single person, whoever's been super buff, I said, boy, those are, you've got some great abs there. Do you eat lots of donuts? Never.

• 1:32:12Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:13Speaker 04

  Never. Okay. And then the last S is saturated fat. Now here's the rub with the keto carnivores. They're saying, I gotta eat a lot of saturated fat. I said, you know, you know, I just don't see it.

• 1:32:27Josh Axe?

  You, you know, what's interesting? So there's a debate, there's debate within the mainstream nutrition community, more of the alternative nutrition community. And I, I'll, I'll share this from a, more of a Chinese medicine perspective. Generally, I, I am a big proponent of a personalized diet. I think a lot of your rules are pretty darned close to what I'd recommend. A lot of fiber, a good amount of protein, a lot of healthy fatty acids from olive oil and wild caught salmon and walnuts. And I mean, that's a

• 1:32:58Speaker 04

  For sure.

• 1:32:58Josh Axe?

  That's a pretty great diet there. And, and I do think that some people who, you know, genetically have a much lower risk of a heart issue, they may tolerate butter, they may tolerate some tallow, the, the, the saturated fats more than others. But I do think generally speaking, that I've seen enough evidence statistically of even when you're comparing seed oils to certain types of saturated fat, that some, and by the way, the seed oils, people are using that term

• 1:33:27Speaker 04

  A bad term.

• 1:33:28Josh Axe?

  Broadly.

• 1:33:28Speaker 04

  Bad.

• 1:33:28Josh Axe?

  Because it's like, are you talking about cold pressed flax oil? Are you talking about highly processed?

• 1:33:35Speaker 04

  Trans fats.

• 1:33:36Josh Axe?

  Yeah, a very, very different.

• 1:33:37Speaker 04

  Polyunsaturated palm kernel oil or something.

• 1:33:40Josh Axe?

  Yeah. I mean, you know, you know what I think are the healthiest fats are fruit oils, which is going to be olives or fruits.

• 1:33:45Speaker 04

  Okay, good.

• 1:33:46Josh Axe?

  Um, you've got avocado, that's technically a fruit.

• 1:33:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:33:51Josh Axe?

  And now, now this one's debatable and I do think it's a little bit of A different type of a saturated fat when you look at the mechanism of digestion and it's coconut oil. Because it's predominantly medium chain fatty acids and it's very different than.

• 1:34:02Speaker 04

  Listen, you don't drink, you don't drink this stuff. I, I think this whole idea, I think this is a giant distraction on the oils. You don't drink them. Okay. So, I mean.

• 1:34:09Josh Axe?

  Yeah, oils in general, that is very calorie dense.

• 1:34:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:34:13Josh Axe?

  To your point.

• 1:34:13Speaker 04

  But you don't take huge quantities of them. Uh, but what I tell people is that, listen, this idea of saturated fat, and I use, I use this example, what do I do? What do I do? I try to keep my saturated fat less than 10 grams a day. Less than 10 grams a day. Okay. Now, if I had a Whataburger and fries in Texas, we got Whataburger. That's 60 grams of saturated fat. 60.

• 1:34:39Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:39Speaker 04

  60. Uh, if I went and had Cheesecake Factory cheesecake, which is a quarter of the cheesecake, that can be 100 grams of saturated fat. Now, listen, if I had corn on the cob, do I put some butter on it? Sure. I don't sweat it.

• 1:34:51Josh Axe?

  Sure.

• 1:34:52Speaker 04

  If, if I'm going on my wife's anniversary and we go to a steakhouse and we have six ounce steak, I don't sweat that.

• 1:34:58Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:58Speaker 04

  But I'm not going to eat steak morning, noon and night and eat sticks of butter. And, and try to throw myself in ketosis and get all sweaty and nervous and, and.

• 1:35:08Josh Axe?

  I don't think that's healthy.

• 1:35:09Speaker 04

  And all of this and what have you, but, but yet I've had on my show, I, I bring on vegans and all these others and I bring on keto carnivores. And the keto carnivores are interesting. They just, before you know it, they go, you're wrong. You're wrong. That's what these was wrong. And, and, and no cholesterol doesn't, is, it doesn't cause heart, they just go, start going nuts.

• 1:35:29Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:29Speaker 04

  And I said, listen, you know, we've got a body of literature right now. It's running about, and I think one of the most even keeled people out there is Joel Kahn, who's one of my mentors in cardiology. It's running about 98 to 2. On vegan based versus keto carnivore.

• 1:35:50Josh Axe?

  For heart disease, and that's one thing I do want to point out. Mortality is going to be a little different, but it still is going to skew the way you're talking.

• 1:35:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. Cancer prevention is also running on that vegan approach because all your cruciferous vegetables anti-cancer, all your medicinal culinary stuff anti-cancer. Heavy meats pro colon cancer, for instance. So on cancer is running good. Now, the keto carnivore is particularly interesting because when I asked keto carnivores on this, I said, what do you think the real benefit of doing this? Most of them must struggle with their weight and they're getting wonderful control of their weight, which they never had before.

• 1:36:31Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:32Speaker 04

  Okay. Most of them struggle with their food urges and the discipline of not eating and it helps them there greatly. But what they tell me, every single one has told me, the benefits of keto carnivore improved mental clarity.

• 1:36:45Josh Axe?

  Sure.

• 1:36:46Speaker 04

  Having the brain use these ketones.

• 1:36:48Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:49Speaker 04

  Somehow this mental, it comes up over and over again. And there are miraculous anecdotes. So I've had on my show, Dr. Bos, Annette Bosworth. She has an anecdote of her mother essentially resolving a deep cancer syndrome.

• 1:37:02Josh Axe?

  Hmm.

• 1:37:03Speaker 04

  And she's, and she's legit. I was recently at an event and this woman who's quite an expert, I had her on my show later on and she publishes a whole book on this. Present a case where a child had profound schizophrenia, became on the street person, is just mentally just lost, completely have a deep psychiatric syndrome resolve on a ketogenic diet.

• 1:37:32Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:33Speaker 04

  So what I've said is that, listen, this needs to be explored. Not as a general diet for the whole country, but boy, for these specific applications, terrific.

• 1:37:43Josh Axe?

  Sure.

• 1:37:44Speaker 04

  And I'm okay with keto carnivore, you know, just, you know, just have some fruit. And one time I mentioned, they go, fruit, if you eat an apple, you're going to throw me out of ketosis. And I said, listen, I've been a doctor for, gosh, going on 40 years. I've never seen somebody come in my office with serious disease because I ate an apple.

• 1:38:01Josh Axe?

  That's right.

• 1:38:02Speaker 04

  I've never seen it.

• 1:38:03Josh Axe?

  That's right.

• 1:38:04Speaker 04

  I didn't have a doctor come and say, doctor, I became 300 pounds because I ate too many Granny Smith apples. Or doctor, my heart got blocked up, I ate too many apples. It doesn't happen. With things that are healthy for you, you tend not to overeat them. You use the example of, of salmon. I'll eat a piece of salmon. I won't go back and have three more.

• 1:38:26Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:27Speaker 04

  But let me tell you, if you put a brownie in front of me, I'll go have three more. So we always overeat the unhealthy things. If I eat an apple, I'm not going to go eat three more. I'm done.

• 1:38:37Josh Axe?

  Organic lean meat, fruits and vegetables, fruits and vegetables, fruits and vegetables.

• 1:38:41Speaker 04

  You and I agree.

• 1:38:43Josh Axe?

  It solves all problems.

• 1:38:44Speaker 04

  We're there.

• 1:38:45Josh Axe?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:46Speaker 04

  We're there, but in the setting of COVID and the pandemic, though, a healthy diet is very important. It's part of detoxification. It's part of recovery. We do believe supplements play a role. Natto canes, bromelain, curcumin, there may be some others, by the way. Nocetol, cystine may play a role. Sareptase, lumbocanez may play a role. We don't know. We have one paper on, on sareptase. You know, there's some other general, you mentioned them, it's interesting. Both long COVID and the vaccine, I believe, are immunosuppressive states. That the data suggests we're more likely to get common colds, we're more likely to get shingles, varicella, zoster, we're more likely to get Ramsay Hunt. That's what Justin Bieber has. We're more likely to, we're more susceptible now.

• 1:39:31Speaker 04

  We've been immunosuppressed, maybe it's this segment in the spike protein, this glycoprotein analogous to HIV. But there's an opportunity for immune boosters, and I personally subscribe to this. I used to not take any of this, but let me tell you, I think vitamin C plays a role. Probably low dose zinc plays a role. Not too much, we don't disrupt copper metabolism, but it plays a role. Vitamin D for sure.

• 1:39:53Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:54Speaker 04

  Vitamin D, carcinogen, I think for sure. I would say aconitacea, alderberry.

• 1:40:00Speaker 04

  Oregano. So, look for products that contain multiple of these immune boosters. And then, very importantly now, what I'm doing, which I was not doing five years ago, I'm doing a twice daily nasal spray and gargle.

• 1:40:14Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 1:40:14Speaker 04

  For sure.

• 1:40:15Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:15Speaker 04

  Listen, I just came on a plane, there's 300 people, don't you think somebody had a virus on the plane?

• 1:40:20Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I'm gonna do a couple squirts of a nasal spray, sniff it back, blow it out. Remember, when a virus settles in your nose, it's there for five to seven days, it needs a nice, stable, dry nose. You never know it's there. It's replicating, replicating, it's attaching to the hair cells, replicating, replicating, replicating. The lymphatic stream back to the throat, your first sign the virus has been here for a week is a sore throat.

• 1:40:47Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 1:40:47Speaker 04

  By the time you have a sore throat, it's been there for a week. You had a week to knock this out.

• 1:40:52Josh Axe?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:53Speaker 04

  And so, a very large study was published in Lancet, it's called the Immune Defense Study, it's a very important study, 15,000 participants, showing on-demand nasal spray, just doing it when you think you've got a sore throat, they had about a 25% preventive effect. Not bad.

• 1:41:11Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:12Speaker 04

  Just do it daily, don't wait until you have the symptoms. Now, we get to 70, maybe even 100% effect, and that's what I'm advising in my practice. I have all my patients doing it. I said, "Don't worry too much about what you're choosing." Now, Wellness Company, we have, we have a product called Immune Defense, which is xylitol, erythritol, a whole bunch of other things combined. Kofix RX has xylitol, palmiton iodine, vitamin D, you know, some have cardigina, and some have other grapefruit seed extract in it, fine. Even just salt water

• 1:41:45Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:45Speaker 04

  has an effect. And in babies, there's been a study, believe it or not, in babies, just did some dilute baby shampoo, even if you took a little Bubzorin, you squirt it up in a baby, you literally can have an impact there. But you cannot let the virus set up shot for a week. So, what's going on in there? The virus at a low viral load is not doing anything. If you knock it down enough, you give enough time for your mucosal immune system to neutralize it and you never get the infection.

• 1:42:13Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:14Speaker 04

  Because we always have, you know, this germ versus terrain thing.

• 1:42:17Josh Axe?

  Of course.

• 1:42:18Speaker 04

  We always have germs up there.

• 1:42:19Josh Axe?

  Of course.

• 1:42:20Speaker 04

  So you're going to have some viruses. You just don't mind them at a low level, but do the nasal spray and gargle twice a day and for sure on days you travel. And I've interviewed some people on my show that have gone five, 10, 20 years with no viral.

• 1:42:35Josh Axe?

  That's incredible.

• 1:42:36Speaker 04

  I got to the point in 2020, I had gotten COVID. I was seeing so many patients, I was working so hard, I was sick every month. I think that year I had 12 colds. I kept telling my wife, oh, another sore throat's coming, and I just, I couldn't get out of it. People, I was on the frequent commentator group at Fox News. I was on national TV probably a couple hundred times. They'd bring up Fauci, they'd bring up me, and I'd have a handkerchief, whatever, and they'd say, doc, you've got to pull it together here. You're sick all the time. And so if you go back in 2020, 2020, my nose was stuffed and I was sick all the time. Now doing a nasal spray and gargle or a throat spray twice a day, I've gone a couple of years now of stellar health.

• 1:43:14Josh Axe?

  Amazing.

• 1:43:15Speaker 04

  Stellar health. But I'm also using the immune boosters that you mentioned.

• 1:43:19Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:20Speaker 04

  I'm taking a lot more supplements and I've had on my show, I think, one of the smartest natural medicine doctors out there. I love this guy and he's so evidence-based, Michael Gaietta. I'm not sure if you've ever run into him. He runs the Gaietta Institute. He gives the best review of some of these topics. You'd love him. And I talked to Gaietta and I said, listen, I'm an allopathic doctor. I prescribe medicines. I wasn't trained in any of the naturopathic fields at all, nothing. I said, what does it really take if you want to do this naturally? He said, you can prescribe one drug probably and handle something, but in the naturopathic world, it's probably about six to eight. You just have to accept the fact you're going to use, you're still, you're still trying to get a medicinal effect.

• 1:44:03Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:03Speaker 04

  You're just trying to do it with supplements. And so it's about six to eight. And I encourage people to listen, kind of open up your mind here a little bit. You know, I'll prescribe the heavy-duty drugs when we need to. But let's try this natural approach and that's our approach at The Wellness Company.

• 1:44:18Josh Axe?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:19Speaker 04

  And I have no problem people trying the naturopathic approach and if if things get tougher, we prescribe the drugs.

• 1:44:25Josh Axe?

  Yeah, I love it. Well, you know, I'm so grateful for you. As I said, you know, looking back at those early stages of of COVID, I saw you standing on the front lines, speaking out, acting with courage and conviction. And I just thought, wow, that's a that's a doctor who really is living a life of, like I said, just great conviction. And I don't know if that's because of your faith or just your your feelings of, hey, you just want to have a positive impact in the world. But but super grateful for you and all the great things you've done. And just coming on here, the other thing I just I really appreciate is you've done so much homework, you've been involved in doing, I mean, as many research papers as anybody in your field, which is so incredible, that you really understand all the studies and all the evidence and the history. I think that's an incredibly

• 1:45:09Josh Axe?

  important thing that a lot of people haven't taken the time to learn. And we know history repeats itself. And so it's an important thing to understand there as well. So thanks so much for coming on. And where are the best places people could find more about you, Dr. McCullough?

• 1:45:22Speaker 04

  Well, I see patients in the office in Dallas. So my professional website is petermcculloughmd.com. You can follow the instructions on how to request an appointment. I see patients really from all over the country. And make sure you check out The Wellness Company there. We have a full nationwide company that was born out of the pandemic with telemedicine, nutraceuticals and supplements, medical emergency kits. We've filled every gap that we see in the healthcare system. We've got a physician medical board there. Go to twc.health for The Wellness Company. Finally, go to McCullough Foundation, mcculloughfnd.org. That's our charitable 501(c)(3) organization that funds our independent investigative

• 1:46:05Speaker 04

  scholarship. We have over 100 peer reviewed publications. We just came out with a key report on the determinants of autism that changed the CDC changed their statements on autism.

• 1:46:14Josh Axe?

  Wow.

• 1:46:14Speaker 04

  Based on that report, I'm certain. So McCullough Foundation is big. And we're making a big impact, thanks to exposure like on shows like yours. So thank you. Thanks for having us.

• 1:46:23Josh Axe?

  Well, I appreciate it again. And hey, thanks, everybody for tuning in to hear the Dr. Josh Axe Show. Remember, each and every week, we're diving deep into the science and principles of how you can heal physically, mentally, and spiritually, and take your health and your life to the next level. Hey, one thing I want to encourage you to do is subscribe to the podcast. Did you know that if you're not subscribed, that certain episodes that are more controversial, like today's, are often shadow banned, and they don't pop up in your feed? So you don't get access to some of the most powerful life transforming information, like Dr. Peter McCullough shared with us today. Also, if you're watching on YouTube, comment, let us know, what is maybe something surprising you heard, or one of the biggest pieces of wisdom that you learned from Dr. McCullough today? We'd love to hear

• 1:47:05Josh Axe?

  from you. Also, thank you, all of you that are mission with us to share this content and help save and transform lives. I'll see you on the next episode.