Emperor Tiberius: Monster or Misunderstood?

*WARNING: This podcast contains adult themes and discussion of paedophilia* A brilliant general. A brooding autocrat. A recluse surrounded by scandal. Few Roman emperors divide opinion like Tiberius. But was he truly a monster, or the victim of centuries of salacious storytelling? In this episode of The Ancients, Tristan Hughes is joined by Dr Daisy Dunn to uncover the real man behind the myths. From Tiberius’ early brilliance on campaign to his troubled and bloody reign in Rome, and finally his notorious withdrawal to Capri, they explore how much of this lurid legacy holds up. Was Tiberius an underrated statesman undone by grief and politics, or the twisted tyrant historians have claimed? Join us to dive into the truth behind Rome’s most tragic emperor. MORE Agrippa and Augustus: The Golden Age Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-ancients/id1520403988?i=1000498249287 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/3V6WnCQoWb6LgI9CBoe5Tf?si=FUdT8ynVSKW7OTnSE6x2Og The Rise of Nero Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-ancients/id1520403988?i=1000713615326 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/2IZuj6FgyZz7asBk6B614f?si=kxeuodXgQmuOz3tUEg0I0g Watch this episode on our NEW YouTube channel: @TheAncientsPodcast https://www.youtube.com/@TheAncientsPodcast Presented by Tristan Hughes. Audio editor is Aidan Lonergan. The producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music courtesy of Epidemic Sounds The Ancients is a History Hit podcast. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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• 0:00Tristan Hughes?

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• 1:04Speaker 02

  I'm Connor Tomlinson from Love on the Spectrum. History is my thing and I've been waiting my whole life for a show like this one.

• 1:11Speaker 03

  And I'm Carter Roy and this is What the Fact? Three facts a week, each with the whole story behind it. The history class you actually wished you had in school. New episodes every Wednesday.

• 1:22Speaker 02

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• 1:32Tristan Hughes?

  Hello, I hope you're doing well. I'm all good here. I'm currently in my kitchen brewing a cup of tea, English breakfast tea, just before I'm about to go off and record another Ancient's interview, which is all about Mesoamerica and that's going to be coming out in a few weeks' time, so stay tuned for that one. Today, we are in the ancient Mediterranean world. We're going to Imperial Rome and the story of Rome's second emperor, the Emperor Tiberius, who's quite an infamous figure today, as you're going to hear, quite a complex character. Our guest is a good friend of mine and a fantastic classicist and author, who was also recently on the podcast to talk through the story of Antony and Cleopatra. She is, of course, Dr Daisy Dunn, the beloved Daisy, who I know so many of you wanted more

• 2:17Tristan Hughes?

  episodes with, and we are delivering. I really do hope you enjoy. Let's go.

• 2:34Tristan Hughes?

  The year is 14 AD and the much-loved Emperor Augustus, the man who established the Roman Empire, is dead at the ripe old age of 75. A new figure steps into the power vacuum, his grim and taciturn stepson, Tiberius Julius Caesar Augustus. Now, ancient historians paint a portrait of Tiberius as a man in slow, agonising decline. We're going to trace his path from a brilliant general and statesman to a paranoid tyrant, retreating to his palatial fortress on the island of Capri, a place that gave birth to horrific legends of perversions, cold-blooded executions, torture,

• 3:15Tristan Hughes?

  and of a man who ruled from his very own ancient Epstein Island. But how much of his legacy is the truth? Well, joining me today is the author, classicist and friend of the podcast, Dr Daisy Dunn, to explore the reign and retreat of Rome's second and perhaps most tragic emperor.

• 3:38Tristan Hughes?

  Daisy, hello. Great to have you back on the show.

• 3:40Speaker 04

  Thanks for having me.

• 3:41Tristan Hughes?

  We were last talking about Antony and Cleopatra, this time Tiberius. Always feels a bit of a weird one, Tiberius, because, you know, he's following in the footsteps of the first emperor, which always feels, you know, big footsteps to fill. But at the same time, I don't want that to cover up the bad stuff in his story, because it is one just with all of these rumours surrounding it.

• 4:03Speaker 04

  It's a really interesting rule, I'll say that, because Augustus, in some way, a lot of people have idealised his rule to a degree, and Tiberius, they're quite keen to portray him as the opposite. He's almost the villain in the piece, and that's not quite what happens.

• 4:18Tristan Hughes?

  And also the fact that there is so much more to his story than just when he was emperor.

• 4:22Speaker 04

  Exactly, exactly, and I think a lot of people focus on the end of his rule, which isn't so good, and they kind of don't look at the man that he actually was. But I think the man behind the throne, the man behind the power, there's a lot kind of going on. He's actually sort of a lot more cultured, I think, than people give him credit for.

• 4:39Tristan Hughes?

  Daisy, set the scene for us. Whenabouts in Roman history are we talking with the story of good old Tiberius?

• 4:46Speaker 04

  So, really, King, as you said, after Augustus, Augustus dies in AD 14, and that's when Tiberius becomes emperor, and he rules until AD 37. Well, obviously, his life is quite, he's fifty five when he comes to power. So he's had a long life before then. So we're looking, you know, right the way back into the end of the first century B C.

• 5:06Tristan Hughes?

  Do we have a rich amount of sources surviving for his life?

• 5:10Speaker 04

  We do, actually. I mean, they're fairly good for Tiberius. I mean, my favourite, you've got Suetonius's Lives of the Caesars, biographical source, Suetonius's writings, early second century, so not, not a million miles away from, from Tiberius in time. And he was head of Rome's library, so he had access to the imperial archives. So, you know, he has some material to work with. Tacitus, other big kind of king of the historians at this time, working in a similar time, in his annals, he dedicates a lot of time to Tiberius. Cassius Dio, another of the historians later, so second to third century. We have bits of the, so the Roman poets, which is quite useful. Levovid, of all kinds of people, actually. I mean, they're, they're quite good, plenty, again.

• 5:55Tristan Hughes?

  And the infamous episodes in Tiberius's life, which I'm sure we'll explore a few of them in our chat today. Do you find those stories in all of those different sources, or are they more prevalent in one than the other?

• 6:07Speaker 04

  There are bad stories in the sources, in, in most of those sources, I would say. I mean, Suetonius goes to town on him. Tacitus does to an extent as well. So, I mean, I think there's a fair sort of idea of, of negativity associated with him.

• 6:20Tristan Hughes?

  And I guess so also the job of the historian today is sorting fact from fiction, trying to figure out what is just scandalous rumour, but what might have some basis of truth in it as well?

• 6:30Speaker 04

  Exactly. And I think with Tiberius, that becomes quite difficult because you find actually with a lot of these emperors, and particularly with Suetonius, they like this idea of a narrative arc. The idea that people begin well and then they're, you know, corrupted by power and things turn sour. And they want to show this kind of arc of, of corruption. And this seems to be, you know, like a narrative device a lot of the time. So it's quite difficult as a historian today to look past that sometimes to try and work out what's actually going on.

• 6:58Tristan Hughes?

  Well, let's go back to the beginning. So can you explain to us Tiberius's background, his family, what do we know?

• 7:05Speaker 04

  So Tiberius was a Claudian on both sides of the family. So Claudian family, great, elite, prestigious, old family in ancient Rome. But the beginning of his life, in spite of that, is quite difficult because he is born to a man called Tiberius Claudius Nero. They like to pile the names up.

• 7:23Tristan Hughes?

  Big names as well there. He's got all of them.

• 7:27Speaker 04

  And he was like a moderately successful politician. But he happened to fight on the opposite side to Octavian in the civil wars of the late Roman Republic. And this results to him going on the run essentially with his young family. And that was his wife, who was Livia Druccilla, their toddling son, Tiberius. And Livia was actually pregnant with her next child, who was Druusus at that time. So they have to actually escape from Rome. They go to Sicily, they take refuge there. They even seek out Mark Antony in the east. You know, they are really in trouble. So this is incredibly difficult. I mean, Tiberius is there. At one point, he apparently tries, he almost gives away their sort of hiding space by crying.

• 8:10Speaker 04

  You know, it's a difficult beginning and then it becomes even harder because he moves back to Rome when it's safe enough to do so. And Octavian incredibly makes a play for Livia. And Olivia has to to marry him and Olivia's already married. Octavian himself is also married to Scribonia. She's just giving birth to their daughter Julia. And it's such a scandal in Rome as a result of this. And so the the couple break up. So Olivia has to marry Octavian instead. She then gives birth to to Druusus afterwards. And because in Roman law, it's really the the fathers who get custody of the children. Tiberius and his brother went to live with their father rather than be raised by the stepfather Octavian.

• 8:55Speaker 04

  And the father dies when Tiberius is nine. He actually delivers the sort of funeral eunuchy for him. And at that point, they'd have gone into the imperial palace and be raised by by Octavian, the stepfather, and back with his mother.

• 9:09Tristan Hughes?

  That young kid, Tiberius, could never have imagined that that would have been his future when he was, you know, very, very young, fleeing Rome. You know, believing that his family were on the opposite side to the figure who would ultimately become his stepfather, Octavian, who would ultimately become Augustus.

• 9:26Speaker 04

  It's such an astonishing story. And I think, you know, Livia and Octavian getting together full stop is such a shocker.

• 9:33Tristan Hughes?

  Yeah, it's interesting you saying there that Livia had to marry. Octavian, because sometimes people say that Livia orchestrated the marriage with Octavian, but it seems like you think the other way.

• 9:42Speaker 04

  I think the other way around. I mean, I'm making it sound probably like a lot more pressure than it was, but I think it was high pressure. I mean, Taster says that he was completely overcome by lust for her body, which I think we kind of push aside slightly. I mean, she has something to gain from this relationship. She has lost a lot of her property because of having to go on the run, so she can potentially recover some of her losses. And I mean, the funny thing is that her first husband, so Tiberius Claudius Neri, seems to be like surprisingly okay with this. Like, he actually like resides over the wedding feast. So he's there. So it's an arrangement. It's not like a kind of absolutely forced marriage, but it's something that that takes place. And it just changes the course of history really for the whole family.

• 10:20Tristan Hughes?

  I mean, absolutely. And we could do a whole episode exploring the the whole life of Tiberius growing up before he becomes emperor. I'm going to try and narrow that down into only a few questions before we get to the Imperial Tiberius story. But can you talk us through then, let's fast forward past the Battle of Actium. Octavian defeats Mark Antony and Cleopatra, who we've already talked about, and becomes the last man standing and then becomes Augustus. Tiberius at this time, he's now in the imperial family with Augustus, Livia and so on. Do we know much about his life at this time when he's growing up and now finds himself at the centre of this new, still quite fragile Roman order?

• 11:05Speaker 04

  Well, he gets advantages from the fact that he's actually entered this family with Octavian, Octavian being the victor, as you say. So he is sort of pushed into a sort of public career probably earlier than most people. So he gets a good education. He learns Greek really, really well. He's said to be quite good at sort of learning oratory. And he sort of features in some of the kind of military parades that Octavian puts on, so the Actium celebrations he features. He's then sort of sent off, he gets sort of early career advantages. He goes off and fights in Germany. And he goes to Armenia. He installs a new king in Armenia. So he has sort of early, early, early like successes, exactly. And this, he probably wouldn't have had. I mean, for a start, I think he is, he's only twenty eight when he becomes consul.

• 11:49Speaker 04

  Consul is the chief magistrate of Rome, usually also forty, forty two. So he's had an elevated career as a result of his connections with Octavian.

• 11:59Tristan Hughes?

  And does he also have an interest like so many other elite Romans at the time in in philosophy and the like and being a very much a man of the arts at the same time?

• 12:08Speaker 04

  Well, I've got to confess, I've got a huge confession, Tristan. I've been really, really harsh on Tiberius in the past. I've kind of presented him slightly as being a bit like sort of sciencey and like not really very cultured, sort of like not very civilized.

• 12:25Tristan Hughes?

  Okay.

• 12:25Speaker 04

  And I kind of stand by this.

• 12:26Tristan Hughes?

  Anyone who does sciences nowadays are not very civilized, is that also what you're saying?

• 12:30Speaker 04

  I don't mean sciences in a literal sense. I mean that he is pedantic.

• 12:33Tristan Hughes?

  Okay, great.

• 12:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, pedantic rather than kind of like very, very cultured and really appreciating literature on its own merit. That's what I, and I kind of stand by this because what we're told in the sources is that he likes Greek, he likes philosophy in particular. But when he delivers his speeches, they're not particularly creative, they're not kind of inspiring. And so Tonia says that he loves Greek myth. So you think, okay, fine. But the detail in this is that he likes to apparently pick out sort of skewer bits of Greek myth and then test people on it. So he'd go around like asking scholars, for example, what was the name of Hecuba's mother? And to me, this sounds like someone who kind of like is one of these people who collects knowledge for its sake, you know, for trivia, so they can show off how much they know.

• 13:18Tristan Hughes?

  Pub quiz.

• 13:18Speaker 04

  Pub quiz type of knowledge, rather than like deep appreciation. That's my impression, but like it is based on the sources, but that's how I feel about him.

• 13:26Tristan Hughes?

  Sounds like being an ancient history podcast host today, should be fair. But wow, so that's very interesting because doesn't he go to Rhodes at one point as well later on? Or he actually gets more interested in that as time goes on?

• 13:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I mean Rhodes, this is six B C's, this is going forward in time.

• 13:43Tristan Hughes?

  Sorry, I know we're going a bit forward.

• 13:44Speaker 04

  No, no, no. So this is interesting because he goes off and it's really unexpected. He's kind of at the height of his powers at that point. He's really been doing well, different journey. He's been having sort of various sort of powers given to him. And he disappears and he is exhausted at that point. And when he's in Rome, he seems to be going to lots of lectures. He goes to philosophy lectures. He seems to kind of take it a little bit easy and become maybe a little bit more cultured. But it's a kind of baffling thing because he's been doing so well. And Augustus, as he's then become, Tavon's turned into Augustus. He is really trying to keep him in Rome. And Tiberius is like, no, no, I'm gonna go. And he actually starves himself so that he can go, so he can get his way, he gets away. And the really interesting thing is, is he wrote some memoirs, which we don't have now.

• 14:29Speaker 04

  They're kind of brief memoirs, but we know from a quotation from those memoirs that he said that he was going because he didn't want to be compared or to be seen to be competing with his two stepsons, Gaius and Lucius, who were being elevated and were being very sort of, they're very, very popular with the Roman people.

• 14:47Tristan Hughes?

  Because at that time, this is important, isn't it, whilst I kind of get us ready for the next question. Tiberius is not the labelled successor of Augustus. So can you talk us through how it ultimately does come to Tiberius being Augustus's, well, next in line?

• 15:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, so Tiberius is absolutely not number one choice for Augustus for successor. I mean, he's pretty low down in the pile, to be honest. I mean, Augustus really would like to have his own blood. That's what he wants. So first of all, it looks very likely that Marcellus, who is married to his only daughter Julia, might be the favoured candidate for power. He dies very young, so Julia is widowed. She is then married to Marcus Agrippa, who is the right-hand man of Augustus.

• 15:37Tristan Hughes?

  Top guy.

• 15:38Speaker 04

  Top guy. They have five children and three of them are boys. One of the boys is, the third boy is born after Agrippa dies. So he's called Agrippa posthumous, hence posthumously.

• 15:49Tristan Hughes?

  That's quite a on the nose. Name right there, yeah.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  It's a Roman thing, that's what they did. So the eldest two sons are Gaius and Lucius, and they look like very strong candidates. And Agrippa himself, he was supposedly the man that Augustus gave his seal ring to when he thought that he was dying of an illness. So he looked like a viable candidate, even though he wasn't a relation. So then we've got Gaius and Lucius. But they also die really young, so they die within eighteen months of each other at the beginning of the first century A D. So, I mean, this is catastrophic really for for Augustus. So it's only actually in A D four that he makes Tiberius his co-heir with Agrippa Posthumus. He adopts both of them. And it's said this is for the sake of the race publica.

• 16:32Tristan Hughes?

  Outplay or just unlucky? What do you think?

• 16:35Speaker 04

  There's a lot of effort in some of the sources to present Livia as having a hand in these. But I don't believe it. I don't believe it. I mean, I think, I mean, Mars, there was there was clearly some kind of plague going around Rome at that time. Augustus recovered, Marcellus didn't. There's no way she had a hand in that. Gaius and Lucius, Gaius succumbs to a wound that he sustains in battle when he's off in the east. Lucius gets unwell for some illness, we're not quite sure what it is, when he's in Marseille on his way to Spain. These look like all like natural deaths. I mean, it's it's kind of part and parcel of being a Roman in this period, you know, you're the odds against you are, you know, they're stacked against you. It's very difficult.

• 17:12Tristan Hughes?

  And Tiberius's younger brother Druusus, he's already died fighting in Germany as well, hasn't he? So that, you know. So by this time, there is just Tiberius and Agrippa Posthumus left. And if we mention Agrippa Posthumus briefly, he just looks, from what they say, incompetent or just not not up for the job. So he kind of goes out of the picture.

• 17:33Speaker 04

  He goes out of the picture. I mean, I feel your heart goes out to this boy. I mean, maybe I'm just being soppy, but it's very difficult. I mean, he his his mother, Julia, is Tiberius's second wife. She is exiled to an island. His father has died before he's born. He's seen his two elder brothers both die within eighteen months of each other. I mean, this is really tough for Agrippa Posthumus. And it's said that his behaviour is absolutely terrible, that he has foul moods, he's violent, he's aggressive, he's particularly hostile towards Livia. And ultimately, he's actually exiled to an island in AD seven. And it's, you know, he's then completely sort of out of the picture. And it's just very, very difficult. I mean, Tiberius at that point has been asked to adopt his nephew.

• 18:18Speaker 04

  He's Druusus's son, Germanicus. So there's like another iron in the fire, if you like. But for Agrippa Pausmus, he is out of sight, out of mind. And he will be finished off. And this is where possibly Livia does have some involvement in that.

• 18:31Tristan Hughes?

  Interesting, yeah, we'll get to that in a moment. And also interesting for you to introduce another character who will mention Germanicus. So you've almost got three generations now, don't you? Augustus, he's now got Tiberius as his heir. And but then told Tiberius to adopt Germanicus. So then there's another in line because Tiberius is already getting on by this time.

• 18:48Speaker 04

  He is, and he has a son of his own as well called Druusus. I mean, there's too many, there are too many of these names being recycled, but he's another Druusus.

• 18:54Tristan Hughes?

  So Druusus and Germanicus were joint, were joint rule after? Is that the idea?

• 18:57Speaker 04

  So there, there's an idea, there's always an idea of doing things in pairs.

• 19:00Tristan Hughes?

  Okay.

• 19:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:01Tristan Hughes?

  Interesting.

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• 19:59Speaker 02

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• 20:39Tristan Hughes?

  I feel one other thing we should mention, because you also mentioned her name, Augustus's daughter, Julia. Shall we talk then about Tiberius's marriages?

• 20:47Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 20:48Tristan Hughes?

  And also his marriage to Julia, because this also feels important when exploring Tiberius's character.

• 20:54Speaker 04

  So Tiberius starts off by having a very promising, happy marriage. And this is to a woman called Vipsania, who is a daughter of Marcus Agrippa. And she was just a baby when she was betrothed to Tiberius. They grew up, they got married, they had children. Everything seems to be going splendidly for them. And then Julia is widowed by Agrippa. And 10 months go past, more than 10 months. 10 months is the minimum time you're allowed to be a widow in Rome. Essentially, that's because if you're pregnant, there'd be no chance of the baby, there being any doubt over the father. So that time elapses. Augustus is desperate for Julia to remarry. And he finally sees, he says, okay, well, let's marry her to Tiberius. Because Augustus and Livia had been unable to have their own child.

• 21:39Speaker 04

  Apparently, they had a child who didn't survive. So they haven't been able to unite their two bloodlines. If they can get Tiberius and Julia to have a child, they will have achieved that. So that's the great plan. But Tiberius and Julia are about as different from each other as you can possibly imagine.

• 21:55Tristan Hughes?

  They don't get on, do they?

• 21:56Speaker 04

  They don't get on. I mean, they're stepbrother and stepsister. I mean, they've had to grow up all of their childhood together. They're not going to have like some, I mean, not that a load of Roman marriages have like some great positive romance between them. That's not always the case, a lot of arranged marriages. But there is absolutely no love between these two. A lot of pressure on their shoulders nonetheless. And Tiberius is still in love with Vipsania. I mean, he actually sees her in the streets at one point. And he is completely like, oh, dumbstruck by, by her. And he's in a real state after that. And so then sort of measures are put in place to stop them from ever seeing each other again. So it's horrible, it's horrible. So they're forced together. They do actually conceive a child, but the son actually dies when he's very, very young.

• 22:40Speaker 04

  And that seems to have drive them even further apart. And then what happens is stories start to spread about Julia having affairs. And this is largely when Tiberius is in Rhodes, when he's gone off in 6 B.C. So he's kind of disappeared. So she is in Rome on her own. And she is sort of accused of having affairs with five or six or more noblemen. And this is disastrous and it's really, really embarrassing for Augustus because as part of his legislation, he has made adultery a crime. It's illegal to have affairs. And then his own daughter has supposedly, you know, fallen foul of this law.

• 23:15Tristan Hughes?

  Yeah, not great.

• 23:15Speaker 04

  It's really, really bad politics, isn't it? So he exiles her to an island, to Plenasia, which is off the west coast of Italy. It's very, very remote. It's very lonely. She goes off there with her mother. Tiberius is then left. And I mean, in Tiberius's favour, Augustus had actually considered killing her, his daughter. Tiberius is the one who actually stayed his hand. He said, you know, we need to show leniency.

• 23:38Tristan Hughes?

  Tiberius stays Augustus's hand from killing his own daughter?

• 23:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 23:43Tristan Hughes?

  I mean, that's as terrible as it can get.

• 23:47Speaker 04

  It is.

• 23:48Tristan Hughes?

  Horrific.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  It is. I mean, Tiberius even says she can keep the presents that he gave her. I mean, this is the good side of Tiberius, right? This is, this is showing him in a much more positive light. I think part of it is politic on his side. He knows that if he authorises the death of, of Juliet, that her sons who are still alive at this point are going to take it out on him. And it could be trouble down the line. So I think he knows politically it's a better idea to show some kind of leniency towards her at this stage.

• 24:14Tristan Hughes?

  So that's really nicely set the scene for as we approach the death of Augustus. So what do we know about Tiberius's succession to the emperorship?

• 24:24Speaker 04

  Well, this whole idea of succession is clouded and mystery in Rome. Because you bear in mind, I mean, people, there's no, there's no sort of precedent for passing power down under this new political system. And there's still this kind of mirage, this idea that they might return to the Republic, that there isn't kind of a monarchical system that's set up here. And so Augustus hasn't been speaking kind of audibly to the people about having a successor at all. It's all kind of slightly murky and clouded. His will names Tiberius as co-heir with Livia, and so he gets two thirds of his property. And it's very obvious from this that he is the heir. But even so, Tiberius isn't certain of this, even himself. He goes back to Rome after Augustus dies.

• 25:07Speaker 04

  And he is named and he kind of accepts the fact that he is going to be the heir. But he doesn't really know what that means and he's not quite sure whether it's legitimate or not. And this is partly because there's mutiny along the Rhine, for example. There are people calling for Germanicus to be made the next leader rather than Tiberius. So he's not sure that his position is secure. He immediately goes to the Senate. He wants the Senate to kind of tell him that it's all okay and that, you know, he is in charge. But he's also quite reluctant. I mean, we have quotes from him. He apparently says that, and it's before he comes to power, he says that governing the empire is going to be like holding a wolf by the ears. So I think there's a real sense of fear on his part of what he's inheriting.

• 25:52Speaker 04

  He's not quite sure whether it's legitimate that he is a successor at all. Um, he wants the Senate to tell him. We're told that the Senate is looking to him, looking for leadership. Again, this could be kind of biased in the sources that these people have become so kind of servile to the idea of having an emperor that they want him to come to power. But I mean, the clinching bit of evidence here is the fact that we, we know that, um, from Josephus, one of our historians, who's particularly writes about the Jewish, Jewish history. He actually counts back the rule from Tiberius's death. So it gives us the number of years, days and months that he ruled. And by his kind of calendar of events, Tiberius is only coming to power in mid-October.

• 26:35Speaker 04

  Augustus died in August. So you've got about two months going by where he's kind of prevaricating. So there isn't this kind of smooth transition and the sources really mislead us here. Olivia is supposed to have made these two announcements together that Augustus is dead and her son is emperor. It isn't quite so smooth. There seems to be a real period of kind of prevarication and uncertainty as well.

• 26:55Tristan Hughes?

  And people figuring out what to do, but Tiberius ultimately does end up the man to succeed as, as the next emperor. I mean, do we know much then about, once we get to October, let's say, he does start to kind of consolidate his control? Does he target others straight away? Or does he promise to follow in the footsteps of Augustus and do the same things that he did?

• 27:16Speaker 04

  I think he wants to do things very much his own way.

• 27:19Tristan Hughes?

  Right.

• 27:19Speaker 04

  Which is bold.

• 27:20Tristan Hughes?

  That's very bold, yes.

• 27:21Speaker 04

  It's really bold, but bear in mind, you know, he's a big boy now, he's fifty five.

• 27:24Tristan Hughes?

  Yeah.

• 27:24Speaker 04

  He thinks he can do it all.

• 27:25Tristan Hughes?

  Just past childhood.

• 27:26Speaker 04

  Yeah. He's had a wealth of experience across the empire. He knows the empire very, very well. He's got a huge military record behind him. He's got triumphs, he's had essentially sole power to Augustus this before he died, he got given sort of tribunition power, which is one of those sort of power without office situations. So he, he's kind of confident in himself. What he does though, is he tries to defer to the senate on as many issues as possible. So things like the placement of the legions, sort of buildings and things like that, he's, he's referring to the senate on quite a lot of things, which is, is interesting. It suggests a kind of step back. He also puts sort of elections of the magistrates, the key kind of governors of Rome, in the hands of the senate, taking it away from the people somewhat.

• 28:10Speaker 04

  And Augustus, when we look back on his rule, I think what we really remember him for, as well as this kind of like weird adultery laws and stuff. It's his building programme, you know, he's the one who claims to have found Rome made of brick and left it made of marble.

• 28:24Tristan Hughes?

  Great quote, great quote.

• 28:25Speaker 04

  Great quote, fantastic. And, you know, it's true, I mean, he does reform a lot of the temples in particular, there's a real kind of reform. Tybias isn't really interested in that. I mean, he, he reestablishes the temple of Concord, but that's like his main kind of piece really, on a kind of political side, sorry, architectural side. He seems to be doing things very different. He doesn't seem to be very concerned with trying to please people. He cuts the pay of actors. He's not keen on putting on loads of public shows to try and endear people to him. He even bans kissing, Tristan. I mean, like, killjoy.

• 28:56Tristan Hughes?

  What happened nowadays, exactly. I mean, how, how did he manage to enforce that? That's quite something. And is this also a time beyond Imperium sine fine, like empire without limits? Of course, you've had the disastrous Jutoburg Forest. Battle, Varus losing three legions in Germania, later years of Augustus, so.

• 29:15Tristan Hughes?

  But Tiberius has a rich military record behind him. Is he still interested in expanding the empire or not?

• 29:21Speaker 04

  Well, to look at what he actually did, it seemed not. I mean, it seems that most of his military experience is actually before he becomes emperor. I mean, there's no great equivalent kind of military campaign after he becomes emperor, which is really peculiar, isn't it? I mean, he seems to have really enjoyed that. What we read about him, he seems to be most comfortable when he's with the soldiers. He's kind of man, man who likes to kind of get his, his hands dirty or his bottom dirty, even he's actually so said to be, I don't mean that.

• 29:49Tristan Hughes?

  That's what he always said, right?

• 29:51Speaker 04

  He likes to sit on the turf with his men eating lunch. I'm saying something completely innocent.

• 29:55Tristan Hughes?

  Okay, not having toilet facilities out in the field, yeah.

• 29:58Speaker 04

  I came out really wrong. But you know, he's a kind of like down with the, the men, you know, type of figures. You'd think that he'd be really desperate to get back onto his horse, you know, go through the provinces. He's seen vast victories over the Pannonians, the Dalmatians, he's won victories. He's, you know, he's very, very successful militarily, but he doesn't seem to be very desperate to, to reinstate this or kind of have some great victory once he's emperor.

• 30:25Tristan Hughes?

  Pannonians, Dalmatians, they are places in the Balkans, not dog breeds, just so to say they're right as well. Yeah. And so how much do you think that this new direction from Tiberius, you know, now that he's emperor, wants to do things his own way, but not going back to the military sphere? How much of an influence do you think his mother has on all this?

• 30:44Speaker 04

  Well, the sources suggest a huge influence, which I don't quite believe. He seems to have a very difficult relationship with Livia, his mother, after he comes to power. She's getting on in years. I mean, bear in mind, he's 55, we've said that several times already, but she's like really getting quite elderly. And the Senate are very, very respectful of her. She is their Augusta. She is the woman who they decide they want to name on monuments. Tiberius gets really cross when they put her name and his name side by side. He doesn't understand why she's having such a big kind of part in his public life. And I think so far, so true. I kind of think there is probably a little bit of kind of conflict between the two of them over their kind of respective spheres of influence.

• 31:27Speaker 04

  One thing we do know about Tiberius, he's not very comfortable with women being in power, particularly when it comes to Germanicus, his wife, so Germanicus, his adopted son. His wife Agrippina is very happy there in Germany at the beginning. And, you know, Tiberius supposedly complains about there being nothing left for the generals to do when she's going around assuming so many of the responsibilities that are usually taken by men. So, you know, he doesn't seem to be very comfortable per se with women in power. And I think with Livia, he feels slightly overshadowed by her and the fact that people are so respectful of her. So she suffers a fall and he doesn't go to her. And then when she actually dies, she dies in her mid eighties, he doesn't actually go to the funeral.

• 32:05Tristan Hughes?

  Wow, oh, that's sad. But that's interesting if we kind of keep on that familial kind of links with Tiberius at the moment. You mentioned Germanicus there and his wife, Agrippina, because this feels one of the big like early-ish events in his reign, which is how this all also comes tumbling down to another familial problem with this, um, well, what happens to Germanicus?

• 32:28Speaker 04

  Poor Germanicus, yes. I mean, Germanicus is a people's hero. He's really, really, really popular and he's a successful military man. He's been in Germany, he's been with Agrippina, their young children there, who include Caligula, by the way.

• 32:41Tristan Hughes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:41Speaker 04

  Little boots, that's how he gets his name. He gets given this little kind of military little boots and all.

• 32:46Tristan Hughes?

  Caligula.

• 32:47Speaker 04

  His guyus, that's his name, but he's called Caligula because of this. So they're a very popular family. And Tiberius seems to really support Germanicus. But then rumours arise that he is responsible for his death. And this is because Germanicus has been sent east and Germanicus is looking after sort of the army there and Tiberius decides to put Piso, who is a former consul, he'd served alongside him in the consulship, an old friend of his, he decides to send him to govern Syria. And these two men fall out spectacularly in the east. And Germanicus is making requests of Piso, he is his senior.

• 33:28Speaker 04

  So he asks for forces to be sent to Armenia, for example, and Piso just refuses to do it. He reverses so many of the things that are asked of him. And the situation becomes so bad between them that Germanicus actually renounces Piso's friendship. So all of this is said to sort of reflect back onto Tiberius. People are saying, well, maybe Tiberius really wanted to kind of knock Germanicus off his high horse. And so therefore he sent Piso out, knowing that he would disagree with him. And this would kind of, you know, put some of the limelight back on to Tiberius rather than Germanicus.

• 34:04Tristan Hughes?

  So he's jealous, I'm guessing.

• 34:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, so that, which is quite difficult to see. I mean, AD seventeen, so two years before Germanicus dies, he wins a triumph. And Tiberius arranges for money to be paid out to the Roman people in Germanicus's name. This doesn't look like the action of someone who is inherently jealous of him. But it says a lot about people's wariness of Tiberius, that they're so willing to indulge this theory that he is behind the fallout between him and Piso. So what happens is Germanicus actually dies in the east. And he, as he's dying, says that he's been poisoned by Piso. Because admittedly, he has some really bizarre symptoms. I mean, we're told that he has weird bruising all over his body. We're told that he is frothing at the mouth.

• 34:48Speaker 04

  I mean, how do you explain that for a man who's in his thirties, in the prime of his life, he's healthy? How do you explain that? So Agrippina is absolutely distraught by this. She sails back with his ashes, holding some of the children by the hands. There's huge outpouring of emotion in Rome, which Tiberius then makes the mistake of trying to quell. This is a bad move on Tiberius's part. You understand why he does it, because people are overturning altars. There's public mourning in the streets, there's kind of civil unrest. And if there's one thing that Tiberius is, he is a stickler for discipline. And that begins with kind of military discipline. But when he's emperor in Rome, he's putting garrisons around the city. He's stamping out foreign cults, any kind of disorder. He wants all of it out the way.

• 35:32Speaker 04

  He wants completely peaceful life, essentially. So he is upset by the outcry of emotion over Germanicus. The people's sympathy are very much with Agrippina and the family. And Tiberius says, okay, let's bring the trial to court. And he has it heard before the Senate. And Piso is found guilty. He's condemned, but he actually dies before he's punished. And Livia actually steps in and saves Piso's wife, Planchina, who is meant to be equally guilty. So it's really astonishing. So it's a really strange story. This is AD 19. And it puts a real blot on that year.

• 36:10Tristan Hughes?

  The Tiberius has now lost one of his potential successors. As you say, the adored Germanicus and his family and lost quite a bit of kudos and reputation from it as well, from his handling of it. Something which was also interesting that you mentioned there was his bringing of troops into the city of Rome itself. So is this when we start getting the influence of the Praetorian Guard right at the centre of imperial control? And the setting, the creation of an actual camp for these soldiers in Rome?

• 36:40Speaker 04

  Yes, I mean, this, can you imagine the sight of Rome? It completely changes. It suddenly looks like a completely different city as a result of this. There's a real kind of climate of, I think, anxiety and fear over this. And this is, as you say, largely the influence of the advisers that Tiberius has, namely one particular adviser, who is Sir Janus. He is the prefect of the Praetorian Guard. He is a trusted member. He's been working with the imperial family for about 15 years by this point. But he's quite a shady character. He is ruthless. He is ambitious. He really seems to have ambitions beyond his station. And he seems to be taking on an increasingly prominent role in terms of decision making. If I have one criticism of Tiberius at this stage in his rule, he's not very good at making decisions.

• 37:24Speaker 04

  He kind of dethers a lot over what to do. And Sir Janus seems to be a lot more decisive. And Tiberius comes to rely on him more and more.

• 37:31Tristan Hughes?

  So what then happens in these years, I guess, in the early twenties, AD? I mean, so Germanicus has gone liviodice at twenty-one, around that time?

• 37:39Speaker 04

  Around that time.

• 37:39Tristan Hughes?

  Around that time. So, Sejanus seems to be his main man in Rome. So what do we know about Tiberius's rule during those early twenties?

• 37:47Speaker 04

  So it becomes embroiled, and the sources gives a really good impression of this. It becomes embroiled in these treason trials. So this great crime of this time is Maestas.

• 37:58Tristan Hughes?

  Maestas.

• 37:59Speaker 04

  In Latin, which means it's where we get our word majesty from. It's meant to be kind of crimes against the majesty of Rome and its people, but effectively it becomes crimes against the emperor and his majesty. This has actually begun under Augustus. So this isn't a kind of invention of Tiberius that you have these trials for Maestas. They begun under Augustus. But the problem that arises, and this is partly linked to the fact that Tiberius seems to be so heavily reliant initially on the Senate, is you get growing corruption in the Senate. And you get people who are willing to inform on each other for Maestas, knowing that if they secure a successful conviction, that they are untitled to a proportion of the condemned's property.

• 38:41Tristan Hughes?

  Wow.

• 38:42Speaker 04

  So senators start almost spying on each other, looking around, trying to report each other for Maestas.

• 38:48Tristan Hughes?

  Real Gestapo-like, almost, kind of thing.

• 38:50Speaker 04

  It becomes scary, you know, it becomes quite frightening. And it becomes a tool really for Sejanus in particular to purge the Senate of members who are obstructing him. And also Agrippina as well. I mean, there's real difficulty between Agrippina and Tiberius since she came back. Real conflict between the two of them. And Sejanus starts by accusing a lot of her friends of treason. So she's seen people going down around her. And she has these two sons who are called Nero and Druusus. Sorry, got another, other Druusus.

• 39:23Tristan Hughes?

  Biring together.

• 39:24Speaker 04

  All those names. And initially, Tiberius starts to raise these boys up. You know, he admits them to the Senate. They look like possible, viable, you know, part of his future. But Sejanus starts to spread rumours that Agrippina is hungry for power. And he invents something called the party of Agrippina. He said there are people gathering around her and that there could be civil war unless you do something about her dominance within Rome. So she becomes a victim of all of this. And her downfall is really, really dire. You're looking at me wanting more.

• 39:56Tristan Hughes?

  Yeah, of course, you can't leave it there.

• 39:58Speaker 04

  I'm hanging on a rope. Well, I mean, it happens after Tiberius is lapping.

• 40:02Tristan Hughes?

  Oh, okay, right.

• 40:04Speaker 04

  So it comes a little bit later, but what happens is he, Tiberius gets completely ground down by Sir Janus complaining about her becoming kind of haughty. Tiberius then writes a letter and he denounces her for her arrogant and haughty mouth. He says that she is intent on going over to the legions in Germany and getting some support there and seeking refuge there. And then he denounces her eldest son Nero for sexual depravity, whatever that means at that point.

• 40:34Tristan Hughes?

  Just in the public, I think.

• 40:35Speaker 04

  It's probably the extent of it. So he's sent off into exile. Agrippina is sent off into exile. In the meantime, she is actually beaten up by a centurion. She loses an eye. I mean, this is absolutely foul. This is horrible. And Juces, the younger son, is imprisoned and he's starved. And we're told that he actually eats the contents of his mattress so that he can stay alive. And he manages about eight days before he also dies. So this is really, I mean, Tiberius blames Sir Janus for this. Later, he says that, you know, Sir Janus is really attacking the family of Agrippina, which I kind of think was slightly hiding behind Sir Janus.

• 41:09Tristan Hughes?

  Yeah.

• 41:09Speaker 04

  At that point.

• 41:10Tristan Hughes?

  His indecision going forward or being lured into believing Sir Janus, quite frankly. And poor old Caligula, he's the one left, isn't he? Which doesn't bode well for what happens next.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  I'm Connor Tomlinson from Love on the Spectrum. History is my thing, and I've been waiting my whole life for a show like this one.

• 42:23Speaker 03

  And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Three facts a week, each with a whole story behind it. The history class you actually wished you had in school. New episodes every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 42:56Tristan Hughes?

  There is another important family figure who we need to talk about before Tiberius's retreat, once again linked to Sir Janus, which is of course, one of his sons, adopted sons, Germanicus is out the picture, but he still had another son at that time, didn't he? Another Druusus.

• 43:13Speaker 04

  Another Druusus.

• 43:14Tristan Hughes?

  Another Druusus. But his fate gets entwined with Sir Janus, and it doesn't end well.

• 43:19Speaker 04

  No, it's really, really difficult because Druusus is married. He has his own son who's called Tiberius Gemellus.

• 43:26Tristan Hughes?

  Okay, back to Tiberius then.

• 43:27Speaker 04

  Let's call him Gemellus.

• 43:28Tristan Hughes?

  Okay, Gemellus.

• 43:29Speaker 04

  Or Gemellus, whatever you want to call him. And Druusus is really the hopes for the future for Tiberius really at that point. But rumor then begins to spread gradually that his wife is plotting against him and that she's having an affair with Sir Janus.

• 43:46Tristan Hughes?

  The one and only Sir Janus.

• 43:47Speaker 04

  I know. And so, I mean, this is absolutely devastating because what happens is Druusus is still very young, and he dies in 23 B.C. And Tiberius, as far as Tiberius is concerned at that point, it's a natural death. He seems to be ill, and there's no kind of suspicion about it. I mean, he's devastated by this, but it seems to be one of those things, you know, there's another death in the family. It's only a little bit time later, like a couple of years later, that he begins to learn that actually this wasn't a natural death, that Sir Janus was behind the death of Druusus.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  And I mean, the source for this seems to be Sir Janus's own wife, Epicata. He seems to, obviously, she's got a bit of an axe to grind. Her husband's having an affair with this woman Livilla, who is married to Druusus. So how trustworthy this is, we don't know. But it says a lot, I think, about the character of Sir Janus and also the character of Tiberius, that Tiberius believes that Sir Janus is behind the death of Druusus. And this really tips him over the edge. And I think this is responsible for a huge change in personality that we see in Tiberius at this stage.

• 44:53Tristan Hughes?

  Is this the change that is epitomised by the year 26 AD?

• 44:57Speaker 04

  It is.

• 44:58Tristan Hughes?

  What is it?

• 45:00Speaker 04

  AD 26, Tiberius, I would say, and it's always difficult to try and diagnose people with any kind of illness or mental illness, you know, when you're looking back from our points into the ancient past. But I would say that Tiberius seems to suffer from a mental breakdown. He decides to leave Rome. He goes off to Capri, the island of Capri. And he seems to be suffering from paranoia at this stage. He chooses Capri partly because it is so well-isolated. It's surrounded by rocks. There are cliffs. He can live high up in a palace, surrounded with very good kind of natural security. There's only one bay that people can come in by, so he feels kind of safe there. And as we've seen, he's gone off to Rhodes earlier in his career. It's not the first time he's disappeared from the public eye.

• 45:46Speaker 04

  He's done it again, but he intends to do it for good. He's quite old at this point, you know, he's in his late, mid to late 60s. He is kind of stooped, he's exhausted, and he seems to turn to drinking. And what we read of his early life, he seems to be quite an abstemious kind of chap. You know, he's not one for big feasting or drinking.

• 46:06Tristan Hughes?

  A military man, right? You know, the discipline vibe.

• 46:08Speaker 04

  Exactly, he's disciplined. We don't read about him being a kind of real gormond or being, you know, a real kind of lager-out. Not that he had luck. Not that he had luck, but he's not that type of guy, you know? But suddenly, he's drinking very, very heavily. So he seems to be sort of descending into alcoholism, into paranoia. He's having some kind of breakdown. He's on the island and he's just, he's so paranoid that... I mean, there's a great story that comes up in.

• 46:32Tristan Hughes?

  Are you thinking of the crab and the fish?

• 46:34Speaker 04

  I'm thinking of the crab and the fish.

• 46:35Tristan Hughes?

  The crab and the fish.

• 46:36Speaker 04

  I love the crab and the fish story. So there's a fisherman who catches this enormous, I think it's a mullet. And he decides to bring it to Tiberius and kind of make a gift of it to him. But in order to do so, he actually clambers up all of these rocks to reach the palatial home that Tiberius has himself up in. And Tiberius is so astounded that this man has managed to essentially breach his security, you know, by reaching him. That he decides to slap him around the face with the fish instead. And I mean, this is really Monty Python, isn't it? I mean, like, it really is, like, before its time. But then you have the man, this poor man, thinking, you know, I just want to give you a present, you know, dude, what are you doing? And he's like, thank goodness.

• 47:16Tristan Hughes?

  And it's not, it's not just the slapstick of slapping you around the face. It's like the, the scales, isn't it? And so the, the flesh is ripped off the fisherman's body. So it's not just.

• 47:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm making this some more humorous than it is.

• 47:26Tristan Hughes?

  Here I am, filling in the glory details, but you know, it is horrific.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  It's horrific. And but the man, the fisherman, poor fisherman, he actually says, thank goodness, I didn't give you the crab that I, I caught earlier. And then Tiberius is like, right, crab, crab. And then like, he gets the kind of whip around with the crab as well. This poor man, and he's just trying to give him a present. I mean, this is terrible.

• 47:48Tristan Hughes?

  That is the Monty Python line though, isn't it? Thank goodness I didn't bring the crab as well. And so it's the one thing you don't say. I guess we should mention the other part of this story, which is this idea that, you know, Capri does become an ancient Epstein Island equivalent, quite frankly. And it's a paedophilia as well. And as difficult as it is, we should mention it because it's another key part of the rumours that really gain a lot of traction. The longer that he stays in Capri.

• 48:13Speaker 04

  This is really grim. Yeah, this was a horrible on this. I mean, we have a lot of kind of descriptions of the fact that Capri is so kind of secretive. So it lends itself to this kind of rumour and this kind of report. There's a lot of woodland and we're told that Tiberius was dressing up kind of young boys and girls in kind of as nymphs and as like Pan, he's kind of the woodland god. He's getting boys to kind of swim with him and kind of nibble him and like, it's, yeah, I don't want to get into too much detail. It's just, it's gross. I mean, it's really, really horrible. I mean, there's a kind of like slightly lighter side to it. He's said to do his house up with lots of kind of artistic art. And I think my favourite bit is, the only bit I can kind of laugh at in the middle of all of this, is he's meant to have an erotic library.

• 48:54Speaker 04

  And the way that this is explained among the sources, I think it's Taster, says that he had these books which showed you kind of sexual positions. And it's just in case he had someone there to have kind of sex in front of him, they didn't know what to do, he could then get a library book down and show him how it was done. But I just think it's just so weird. Anyway, so it's it's really difficult one. How much of this do we believe? I mean, it's really, really, really hard to know. I mean, I I'm not making an excuse for him, but I'm trying, what I am trying to do is to try to explain his change of personality. When I say that, I think he is sort of mentally, he's in a very, very deep depression. He has been completely knocked for six by this news about his son and his death. I think he is an alcoholic. He seems to be drinking all day.

• 49:38Speaker 04

  And I think he he just doesn't seem to be completely in control in the way that he has been throughout his life. That obviously doesn't forgive his behaviour, which is horrible. And it's just, it's hard to know whether all of it is true or that this is kind of people making stuff up. I kind of think he's, he's, you know, he's mid sixties. Is he really up to having all that sex? Is it all kind of mainly voyeuristic? It's very, very difficult to know.

• 50:01Tristan Hughes?

  Yeah, very much so. So when does he decide that he does actually need to think about a successor?

• 50:09Speaker 04

  Surprisingly late. I mean, already in his kind of mid sixties, he's he's left at quite late, hasn't he, really? What happens is he is sent over Gaius, who is the son of Germanicus. He's a surviving, so he's the future Kiligula. He's a teenager.

• 50:23Tristan Hughes?

  Scathed beyond recognition from everything that's happened to his family since he's been a baby.

• 50:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's another one who's had a really disastrous kind of upbringing, really horrible. And in his teenage years, he's said to have sex with his sisters and, you know, it's like really horrible. So if you've already got a troubled young man and they're going to send him to Capri to be with Tiberius, I mean, not the best kind of. Idea at that point.

• 50:47Tristan Hughes?

  Really, is he? But yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 04

  So really, really quite difficult, but he seems to spend a lot of time there with Tiberius. So it's looking more and more like he's going to be made a successor. And what Tiberius ultimately does is he lines him up together with Tiberius Gomelus, the grandson, to be his kind of joint heirs.

• 51:03Tristan Hughes?

  And I guess maybe one, maybe a small victory that we can also talk about here is so Janus's crimes do finally catch up with him in the meantime.

• 51:12Speaker 04

  They do. I mean, you'd think they probably had already.

• 51:14Tristan Hughes?

  Yeah, he's been in Rome.

• 51:15Speaker 04

  He's been in Rome. He's been, yeah, he's been running everything. And well, Tiberius actually accuses him of treason. So it comes to terms back. And I mean, this is, yeah, it's horrible. He has him killed. He has his son hanged. He has his daughter raped and hanged. And their bodies are rolled down the steps of Rome into the river. So that's the, the ending for, for them. And I think for, for the Romans, it's very difficult. Was this kind of, was it a sigh of relief? I think they're feeling very kind of vulnerable, the people in Rome at this point. They feel like they've been completely abandoned by Tiberius. And the really difficult thing is Tiberius, the, I think this is the great mistake he makes really is he let, he lets everything go. You know, he's tried so hard, and particularly across the empire. So many of his kind of early military advantages are kind of undone.

• 52:01Speaker 04

  And he just, he leaves everyone in power for too long. You know, he leaves governors in power for, for years and years and years. There's no kind of change around of staff. And when you have that happening across the empire, you're bound to have a growth of corruption. I mean, Pontius Pilate is one of the guys. I think he's, he's, oh, is he kind of nine years, I think?

• 52:19Tristan Hughes?

  Ponti P. Yeah, it's around that time. He's the thirties. Of course, it's the thirties.

• 52:23Speaker 04

  He's left in power for nine years. I mean, come on. I mean, this just seems to be happening all, all over the place. He just doesn't seem to switch people around. He's just kind of completely let go. And obviously Rome is going to descend, the empire's going to descend into chaos at that point.

• 52:35Tristan Hughes?

  He just becomes completely absent. He doesn't care at all, as you say, maybe that complete mental breakdown. So it's really not a good final few years for Tiberius. How does it all end?

• 52:47Speaker 04

  Well, he gets to the age of, I think he's about seventy seven.

• 52:50Tristan Hughes?

  Okay.

• 52:50Speaker 04

  Um, is that right? Eighty thirty seven. Yeah. So, and he is supposedly kind of living it up still in Capri. And there are kind of rumours, he seems to get a chill. He seems to have a pain in his side, but he seems to try and carry on. You know, a great old sort of military spirit stays with him. He tries to kind of persevere in spite of it all. And he actually, we we read of him kind of going to an arena and kind of throwing a javelin at a boar, you know, even though he's like dying.

• 53:17Tristan Hughes?

  Seventy seven, throwing a javelin, okay, death star.

• 53:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, he seems to be still be, you know, fighting and and okay. But then he he falls very, very unwell at mycenum, sort of in the Bay of Naples, and he dies there. And there was sort of, there were various suggestions. One of the sources suggests that maybe Caligula helped to finish him off at the end.

• 53:37Tristan Hughes?

  With a pillow or something like that.

• 53:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. And that he kind of fell just next to his bed and died there. We don't really know for sure how he died, but you know, he's he's lived a ripe old age for that time.

• 53:47Tristan Hughes?

  He has, hasn't he? Especially also considering that he only became emperor when he was in his mid fifties.

• 53:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:52Tristan Hughes?

  And so rules for some twenty years. On the larger scale of it, we've largely focused on Tiberius the man, but if we focus on like Tiberius the reign and almost kind of take him out of it, how successful do you actually think the reign is in the whole story of the forming of the Roman Empire?

• 54:09Speaker 04

  Well, the funny thing is, he might be a kind of disaster on the page when you read about about him, you know, as you say, as a man in the sources. But actually, he left Rome in quite a strong position and it was quite wealthy. I mean, you know, people were doing quite well. It wasn't left, you know, in the doldrums in terms of sort of like the financial strength, the economy of Rome was actually flourishing. And that's probably partly because he hadn't had any great military campaign during his rule. He was able to kind of preserve money in that way. There are also stories of him sort of extracting money from wealthy men and women actually across the provinces as well. So financially, Rome's quite stable. They have felt quite sort of rudderless within the city. I think they're kind of, you know, wanting a better, a better leader.

• 54:52Speaker 04

  But Rome isn't as messy as you'd think. I think when you actually read the description of him actually disappearing for so long on Capri, you know, there is a lot of kind of mire in terms of the the treason trials and the mess of Janus, and there's a lot of kind of ill feeling resulting out of that. But actually, it's fairly stable and prosperous.

• 55:12Tristan Hughes?

  Last of all, how do you think we should remember?

• 55:17Tristan Hughes?

  Tiberius today.

• 55:18Speaker 04

  I think much earlier in his rule, he was a great military figure, you know, I think, yes, he was kind of propelled to power because of the family that he found himself in. But actually, he did a lot off his own bat, you know, he achieved things militarily that other people had not achieved. He was respected in that sphere. And I kind of think he was very, very capable. He was a man of discipline. He was not outgoing. You know, he was not this kind of affable, likeable character like Germanicus or so many of the other players around him. He seems to have been very introspective, very reserved. And because of that, people had great uncertainty of like where he was, what he was thinking. So I kind of imagined

• 56:00Speaker 04

  him as a kind of quieter figure, but someone who was actually capable, but who really suffered after the death of his son and descended into something like tyranny.

• 56:11Tristan Hughes?

  Daisy, it's been absolutely fascinating listening to you talk through all of this. Like, the story of Tiberius is a fascinating one with all of those tales that survive, from the grim ones to the really interesting ones also regarding his military career and his pre-emperorship career. Thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast and explain it all to us.

• 56:29Speaker 04

  Oh, my pleasure.

• 56:34Tristan Hughes?

  Well, there you go. There was my good friend, Dr. Daisy Dunn, returning to the podcast to talk through the story of Tiberius, the Emperor Tiberius. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up at historyhit.com/subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.

• 57:26Speaker 02

  I'm Connor Tomlinson from Love on the Spectrum. History is my thing, and I've been waiting my whole life for a show like this one.

• 57:33Speaker 03

  And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Three facts a week, each with a whole story behind it. The history class you actually wished you had in school. New episodes every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.