Part Two: Some Psychic Abilities Are Dangerous: Aliens, Telepathy & Discovering Your Gifts | Dr. Dean Radin

What if telepathy, precognition, remote viewing, psychic abilities, and even “magic” are real, but science has been looking at them the wrong way? Could human consciousness actually be connected across space and time? Could your brain and body be responding to information from the future without you consciously knowing it? In this episode of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, Dr. Dean Radin, Chief Scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS) & Cofounder of neuroengineering company Cognigenics, explores some of the biggest questions at the intersection of consciousness, quantum physics, parapsychology, psychic phenomena, telepathy, precognition, remote viewing, and the nature of reality. Dr. Radin explains what Noetic science actually is and why decades of research into “paranormal” phenomena continue to challenge conventional scientific assumptions. He explores evidence suggesting that human consciousness may influence quantum reality and whether the relationship between mind and matter could help explain phenomena like prayer. Why can’t psychics use their abilities to win the lottery? If precognition exists, is the future actually fixed, or are we simply sensing probabilities? And when you have a powerful intuition or premonition, are you predicting the future, or accidentally manifesting your own fears? We also dive into the mystery of telepathy, tracing the history of scientific telepathy experiments and how researchers have attempted to test them over the years. What blocks psychic intuition in the first place? Could constant stimulation, distraction, technology, and the noise of the outside world be preventing us from accessing subtle information? Are humans already responding physiologically to “nonlocal” information without consciously realizing it? Dr. Radin also discusses why AI may be biased against conclusions that validate paranormal phenomena, and the strange history of how Western civilization went from believing in magic to rejecting it, a transformation sometimes described as the “disenchantment of the world.” From his perspective as a scientist, what would it take to make paranormal phenomena more scientifically acceptable to study? We examine one of the biggest problems in parapsychology: reproducibility. Why are paranormal laboratory results so difficult to replicate? Are the phenomena themselves variable, or are traditional scientific methods running into fundamental boundaries when applied to consciousness? We explore government research into remote viewing - including how Dr. Radin's interest in the paranormal was influenced by research connected to the U. S. government's Stargate program - and tackle one of the most controversial questions surrounding modern paranormal experiences: Why do certain people seem able to encounter or summon orbs or nonhuman intelligence (NHI), while others never experience anything at all? Dr. Radin shares his thoughts on people such as Chris Bledsoe, who have reported extraordinary encounters with orbs and NHI, and explores why fear may play a major role in determining who can or can't experience these phenomena. He also recounts a deeply personal childhood experience on Iroquois land, when he saw what appeared to be a thunderbird. Could that strange encounter have somehow foreshadowed his eventual career investigating consciousness and the paranormal? We unpack the Global Consciousness Project and its investigation into whether human consciousness may exhibit measurable connectivity on a global scale. Could this research provide clues about the deeper relationship between mind, matter, interconnectedness, and prayer? And perhaps the most futuristic question of all: Could we genetically engineer someone to become psychic? Could future biotechnology enhance sensitivity to psychic phenomena, or even suppress that sensitivity if it proves psychologically harmful? Ultimately, Dr. Radin asks us to reconsider one of the most fundamental assumptions of modern science: Is consciousness simply something produced by the brain, or is consciousness actually permeating the fabric of reality itself? Learn more about Dr. Dean Radin and his work: https://www.deanradin.com/Learn more about IONS: https://noetic.org/breakdown/IONS' YT: @instituteofnoeticsciencesIONS free live webinars: https://noetic.org/experience/connect... IONS peer-reviewed papers: https://noetic.org/science/publications/Participate in IONS research: https://noetic.org/science/participat... 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

• 0:05Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:06Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to part two of our conversation with Dr. Dean Radin, the chief scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences. He is the guy doing the research into the science of consciousness, psychic phenomenon, remote viewing, and the possibility that reality is more interconnected than we have ever realized.

• 0:26Jonathan Cohen?

  In part two, we talk about the Global Consciousness Project, remote viewing, and the objections that materialists try and use to discredit intuition, telepathy, and psychic phenomenon.

• 0:38Mayim Bialik?

  We're also going to talk about the possibility that we can genetically engineer someone to be psychic or turn off sensitivity to psychic abilities. All of that and more in part two of our conversation with Dr. Dean Radin.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  Hey, guys, I'm Hoda Kotb. Look, I know how busy life can get. And sometimes, we all just need a moment to pause and connect. Well, that's what my podcast, Making Space, is all about. Real conversations with people who've learned how to live with purpose and heart. Think authors, thought leaders, actors, performers. And every time, I walk away with something that changes how I see the world. And I think you will, too. Join me for Making Space every week, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:24Jonathan Cohen?

  Because you're fantastic at explaining things that people come to us with criticisms, I would like to offer you, one of the staunchest materialists we've ever spoken to said, "If anyone could have any psychic ability, then people would be dreaming the lottery numbers, and everyone would be winning all the time." Tell us why that is not the case.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  Well, it's partially not the case because the information that people receive is usually not political.

• 1:56Speaker 03

  And if it's precognition in particular, it's probabilistic. And some people do win the lottery many times. So it may be an extremely rare ability to do that, but there are cases where people have won multiple times. They don't necessarily claim that it was psychic. But nevertheless, yeah, I mean, you find people who win two times, three times, five times. Well, what are they doing? The usual response would be they figured out a way to cheat, which might be true. But again, you take stories like that, and you go into the laboratory and say, "Well, is it true, in general, of something that we can see under controlled conditions, where we can begin to exclude all of those other kinds of explanations?" So it is very odd, in a sense,

• 2:40Speaker 03

  and this has already been discussed, why would you expect something like a subtle ability to be so strong that you could demonstrate it at will under any condition? There's like nothing that humans can do that reaches that level of reliability, including Olympic athletes. So that's one of the reasons, by the way. When you see sports or you watch a famous musician, it's almost unbelievable. It's like a miracle that they're able to do what they're able to do. Right? You watch somebody who's an expert at basketball or something, they seem to float through the air, and they could do it repeatedly. And they're doing things that are superhuman. That's why they get a lot of money, among other things,

• 3:25Speaker 03

  and why they become major celebrities, because that doesn't seem like what humans can do.

• 3:31Jonathan Cohen?

  Can you tell us about some of the precognitive experiments that you've seen with people who have accuracy at either predicting events or seeing things? And I think that will lead us into Stargate and how the government was using remote viewing.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  Well, I developed the presentiment design some years ago, more years than I like to think now. And I think I had Julia Mossbridge on the show, and she may have mentioned these, yeah. So the idea was, when you ask somebody in the laboratory, under controlled conditions, to do something psychic, they get afraid. There's a demand characteristic. The anxiety will squash the effect pretty quickly. So we want them to do something that doesn't require any conscious ability at all. We measure their physiology, heart rate and skin conductance and pupil dilation, things like that. And then we just ask them to look at pictures. And they'll look at a series of maybe 20 or 30 pictures

• 4:32Speaker 03

  over the course of 20 or 30 minutes. What we're doing is measuring continually what is happening under the level of conscious awareness. So we can see that through skin conductance and other measures in their body. And so the hypothesis in this study is that if you can feel the future, then if we are about to show you a calm picture, you're going to remain pretty calm, because who cares if you see a picture of a pond or something? Unless, of course, you're afraid of ponds, which some people are. So there's going to be variance in terms of what happens when people see pictures. This happened once with a picture of a bunny. A bunny was going to be a calm picture, but some person, for whatever reason, did not like bunnies.

• 5:15Speaker 03

  And for them, it was an emotional picture. So it adds noise to the experiment.

• 5:20Mayim Bialik?

  That's Easter bunny trauma.

• 5:22Speaker 03

  Like an owl, yeah. Like, I would look at an owl and think, "Oh, this is nice." But other people have different responses. So we choose emotional pictures that we know that people are mostly going to respond to. Except even there, it doesn't always work. You show a picture of surgery to an average person, they will freak out. You show it to a surgeon, they'll say, "Oh, that technique is interesting." And then, you know, totally, so again, it adds noise to the experiment. But the point in this is, you don't know, and the experimenters don't know, what picture is about to come up, because it's chosen completely at random. And by the way, by a quantum random process, so nobody can even know in principle what's about to happen.

• 6:07Speaker 03

  And you're measuring what's happening to their body before the picture comes up. And again, the hypothesis is you remain calm before calm pictures and emotional before emotional pictures, and that's what you see. And again, and again, and again. So there's something like 50 or 60 such replications in different laboratories at this point. And you find it in almost every different bodily function that you can measure. The body becomes active before an emotional picture as compared to a calm picture.

• 6:36Mayim Bialik?

  Sorry, just, these images are being presented on a screen. There's not another human in the room, correct?

• 6:42Speaker 03

  Well, there might be another human in the room, but they're presented on a screen.

• 6:45Mayim Bialik?

  They also don't know what the image is.

• 6:47Speaker 03

  Nobody knows, yeah. There's no leakage of what the future event is going to be.

• 6:51Mayim Bialik?

  Got it, okay.

• 6:52Speaker 03

  And what's also interesting is if you're using pupil dilation. Pupil dilation, of course, is a very interesting balance between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, with the activating versus relaxing the nervous systems. And so during, say, five seconds before the image comes up, you're looking at a dark screen. So the pupil is dilated. There's nothing that's going to give an indication about what's going to happen, but it will still bounce around, because the bouncing is the balance between these two aspects of your nervous system. It bounces differently before an emotional picture than before a calm picture.

• 7:28Mayim Bialik?

  What are you implying? That some people know what image is going to come up? And I mean, I'm like, really, like, I'm into it. And their physiology is reflecting an image in the future that they somehow know is going to be on a screen?

• 7:48Speaker 03

  It means that at an unconscious level, this interconnectivity that we're talking about is always there, even in people who don't know it. So if you ask somebody, like, you debrief someone after this experiment, "Did you know? Could you feel that you were about to see a no?"

• 8:07Mayim Bialik?

  This freaks me out. Do you feel freaked out? Or you just feel like this is something you've always known?

• 8:11Jonathan Cohen?

  The interconnectivity is there even amongst people who don't know it. So to me, what I start to think about is all the information that is being processed that does not reach the conscious level, and how much disconnect is that? Like, what is that causing in us, right? Like, if you can't tap in to this entire information stream that you are physiologically responding to, you're really operating at two very siloed planes. And that could be a huge point of disturbance.

• 8:49Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, that's the world we live in. Like, that's...

• 8:52Jonathan Cohen?

  That's the problem.

• 8:53Mayim Bialik?

  This is what this guy studies his whole life.

• 8:56Jonathan Cohen?

  Well, but if we're getting to the implication of this at a societal level, at a personal level, what we're saying is that there is another reality that we're all a part of, and we're physiologically responding to, and yet we don't have the conscious awareness to actually understand or navigate it. And if we get too much of it, we could go crazy and be bombarded by it. But if we have none of it, then we're also going to have these physiological responses that we're not going to be tracking or understanding, and we're going to be living in silos. And I think this is a major point of contention and disharmony in the world.

• 9:35Mayim Bialik?

  I left my body. I literally, I had a dissociative moment when this sort of like landed this way, because that's exactly it. People are constantly communicating intentions, fears, anxiety. Like, this is the level, right? And some of us are more fine tuned than others. I seem to be exquisitely fine tuned for things that don't seem useful at all. Like, you know, I have histaminergic reactions to looking at a mosquito, right? That doesn't seem helpful. So that's what I'm tuned for. But Jonathan is someone who is tuned into things that I don't understand. And in some cases, it can be very upsetting for him.

• 10:17Jonathan Cohen?

  It's very upsetting for her because she's like, why would we ever do that? And I'm like, well, it makes total sense to me.

• 10:23Mayim Bialik?

  Or sometimes he'll get dysregulated by things that I'm not picking up on, or that he's not even fully, I mean, this is like, we're in Matrix land now. Mindy Alex Breakdown is supported by Rabbit Air. I have to say, we absolutely love our Rabbit Air purifiers. I'm one of those people who didn't know that this could change my life until I got my Rabbit Air. We actually have three of them, so we can have allergen-free air wherever we're spending our time and recording. And with fall allergy season on the way, having a high-quality, effective air purifier on hand is absolutely key to tackling those fall allergens and keeping your space clean. Rabbit Air's advanced BioGS Hapa Filtration goes beyond standard filters

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• 14:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, so far, we're talking about perceptual effects. And of course, it extends into action as well. So if you think of consciousness as some kind of a substance, in quotes, that simply permeates the fabric of reality, it's out, it's part of what we are. And it's everywhere. It's not just in humans. It's in probably every sentient system, and insects, and animals, and everything else. And probably even what we consider to be inanimate matter. So that's, this is the, like a rock. A rock has some form of sentience. It's not, not like what we experience, but a tree would have it, and a plant, that plant that you have there, that would have it. Even if it was plastic, it would have it.

• 15:26Mayim Bialik?

  It's a fake plant, but you're right. I get it.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  See, the plastic is still a physical thing, and that has a form of sentience if you start from the point of view that ultimately, everything is consciousness.

• 15:38Mayim Bialik?

  Also, he just outed us as having a fake plant, something I'm very opposed to.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  That was my intuitive sense. I wasn't feeling it as a living thing.

• 15:47Mayim Bialik?

  I'm thinking about what we know about, let's say, fungi, about mycelium, about, you know, this sort of entire underground, literally, you know, web of communication that occurs, right? It occurs between, you know, all organisms, right? But, but in particular, that is this, this beautiful, intricate system of interconnectedness that, you know, if you were to describe that to someone who had just landed here from another planet, that would sound crazy. When Neil Thiess proposed that the fascia system of the entire human body is actually a network with the capability to hold memory, to, to release emotion,

• 16:32Mayim Bialik?

  to release trauma, that it, it weaves in between the entire system in a functional manner, people thought that was crazy, right? Until he, he proved that it was accurate. And, and I'm hoping, and I think the work that you do, right? Literally, the work that those in, in these fields are doing is trying to show that this kind of connectivity, it exists on levels that we may not be able to measure in the same way that we measure mycelium or even fascia, right? It's this next level.

• 17:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we, we need to expand our epistemology, in a sense, right? We need better ways of measuring things. And so on the perceptual side, it is true that the ordinary waking state is the worst state to be in for most people to feel this, to perceive these things. And from a neuroscience point of view, we know that there's trillions a bit of information that are being impenetrable upon our sensory systems, but we only get a very, very thin cartoon from all of that. Most of it never gets to our conscious awareness. So it's not too surprising that for most people, it's filtered out. Like, it's, it just doesn't make it.

• 17:48Speaker 03

  On the other hand, you have phenomena like precognitions, these, these unconscious effects, feeling of being stared at, occasional telepathic feelings, and so on. It's always there, but for Jonathan, it's more present than it is for, for somebody else.

• 18:07Speaker 03

  It, it took me a long time to, to get over the inculcation of 20-plus years of academia to be able to entertain the possibility that that is really true as compared to fiction. Because all I had known up to that point was it's fiction. Like, mystics will talk about this stuff, but it wasn't real for me because I didn't experience it yet. But once I got into the field and started working on this from, in a laboratory, and then seeing people who are quite talented, it is more present for me, simply because I think my belief system has changed, and my openness to it has changed as well.

• 18:49Jonathan Cohen?

  I wonder if the Institute of Noetic Sciences could start a rehabilitation program for lifelong academics, and if mine could be your first intern.

• 18:59Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  You know, one of my colleagues is Jessica Utz, the statistician who's pretty well-known in this field. And when she gave a talk as the president of the American Statistical Association, you may have heard this story before. So there's a few thousand statisticians in the audience when she's talking and she asks them, after presenting a huge amount of empirical evidence and results and data, would you believe that more? Or would you believe a single personal experience? The answer is always the same. It is a single personal experience, even for people who know very well how to evaluate data. And so another great example recently is Christoph Koch,

• 19:46Speaker 03

  who was one of the better-known neuroscientists, who came from a physics background and was a disciple of Francis Crick, like the "you are your brain" man. And Christoph was a big promoter of materialism until he had this psychedelic experience. And now he's completely flipped into idealism. And so that's another case. See, it's an N of one, as we say. One case with one person who caused a transformation in worldview.

• 20:18Mayim Bialik?

  I wonder if you can talk about the government and remote viewing. This is, you know, we've spoken to some of the early, you know, both practitioners and Angela Ford, who worked for decades. And I mean, some extraordinary stories and experiences. One of the things that, you know, I always bring that up to people who are skeptical. And I say, well, we spoke to this woman and this is a thing that's happening. And a lot of people say like, well, the government does a lot of stupid things. Like, the government does a lot of things that aren't useful. Can you explain to us what is actually happening

• 21:00Mayim Bialik?

  with the use of remote viewing by our government? In the past, in the present, and in the future?

• 21:08Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know about the future. I have hopes about the future, but I don't know. So in the past, you can trace it back to the, at least the 1950s, probably before that. People were definitely interested in J.B. Rhine's work at Duke. It accelerated in the 1970s, early 70s, mainly because of the Cold War, where we were concerned of reports out of, at the time, the Soviet Union, that there was already a race for atomic weapons. There was a race for all kinds of weaponry and stories. So it became more and more important for aspects of the military and the intelligence world to find out, is this a threat? Like, can we believe that this is really real?

• 21:50Speaker 03

  And so a big part of the Stargate program was threat analysis, which is, we are hearing these stories out of China or out of Russia. And is this something to be concerned about? The other part was, we know that they're doing remote viewing. Is that a real thing? Stargate was two parts. It was the research side and it was the operational side. I was on the research side, which was not so concerned with operational missions. We would hear about it occasionally, but mostly it was about the research. So our mission was, is it a threat? Is remote viewing a real thing? Can it be improved? Can we identify people who are really good at it? That sort of thing. And so, yeah, it's a real thing.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  I mean, the methods work, the experimental methods. The analysis of the databases was a very limited piece of the actual data, because I didn't get access to all of it. I had the opportunity of seeing people like Ingo Swan and Joe McMonigal and a few others, who were really exceptionally talented. And you can't see that too many times without having your brain explode. So I would say that that was earlier on in my career. It was 1985. And that's what convinced me that if it was possible for a scientist to do this kind of research as your job, that's what I wanted to do. Because that was the ontological shock for me.

• 23:18Speaker 03

  That somebody could sit in a room, in this case, in Menlo Park, California, and describe in great gory detail what was happening on the other side of the planet. And not only now, but in the future, and be correct. Well, that, well, what? You know, what, what, what? It raises so many questions immediately that, that just driven purely by curiosity initially, that's, well, who would not want to study that? And of course, the odd thing was that because it was classified at the time, you want to go outside the building and shout that saying, this stuff is really real. They did, well, they're not telling us that this is a really real thing, but you weren't allowed to do that. So it created a little bit of a schizophrenic feeling

• 24:03Speaker 03

  in that, I imagine, works, this happens a lot in classified programs.

• 24:08Mayim Bialik?

  I think that's a lot of what's happening. And I'm going to ask you to speak to something that, you know, I know is not your particular field of expertise or research, but I want you to apply the same sort of logic and the same sort of scientific reasoning. You know, we've spoken to several people now, you know, who claim that they are receiving downloads from non-human intelligence. And these are very, you know, very amicable folks. They do not meet, you know, diagnostic criteria for, you know, for other kind of mental health or psychotic, you know, diagnoses.

• 24:49Mayim Bialik?

  These are very, very specific, very detailed, very elaborate reports. And in many cases, people talk about having the ability to summon energies, to summon lights in the sky, to summon orbs, to summon this presence. It's often reported as this female presence. Can you try and help us understand, in this framework, is it possible that there are people who are tuned into even things outside, right, of the realm of description, that we don't yet even know how to define, right? What is it to summon with some reliability and reproducibility?

• 25:34Mayim Bialik?

  What is it to summon orbs of light? What could be happening?

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Well, look at the magical traditions. It would be conjuring, invocation, convocation, lots of different methods of supposedly pulling in spirits. That's been around forever, from shamanism up to the present day. Most of the remote viewers that I know have described episodes where they weren't specifically trying to contact some sort of non-human intelligence, but they did anyway. They would just show up and they would have some kind of communication. You know, people like Bob Monroe at the Monroe Institute and so on. So it happens a lot. It also turns out to be exceptionally difficult to study from a scientific perspective. So there's still some uncertainty.

• 26:25Speaker 03

  Like, I'm agnostic when it comes to these kinds of experiences, because until we can find a way, not necessarily of bringing it into the laboratory, but gaining some kind of confidence that it's not a delusion and not an illusion, or not something else, I don't know. That's, my position is, I don't know. But I hear it a lot. I hear it from people who are credible. And there's a very long history about it. So I suspect that from a, from an educational or a literature perspective, there's something going on. It requires a very different worldview.

• 27:04Mayim Bialik?

  He so easily talks about, oh, non-human intelligence. Yes, you can summon it. Oh, I didn't know.

• 27:09Jonathan Cohen?

  No, but I think this is where a lot of people start to really struggle, because it does require a different worldview. And they may be okay saying, we're all interconnected and that the bounds of space and time are movable, not quite what we thought they were. But then when the worldview starts getting into this other mythology that involves non-human intelligence, and what does that mean? And people then start to try and describe that. And the descriptions are everything from guides and guardian angels that feel a little bit more common to the variety of extraterrestrials, some of them millions of years old,

• 27:53Jonathan Cohen?

  some of them not friendly, some of them friendly, some of them having motivation, some of them communicating. It begins to stretch the boundaries of what people are comfortable with, because it's just like, it's a Wild West of narrative.

• 28:08Mayim Bialik?

  The question is also, you know, is this a nomenclature difference, right? Was what the prophet Ezekiel described another version of an alien? Was it also God? You know, is it a gargoyle if you're in, you know, medieval Germany? Is it, you know, like, what is it? Could it be anything? Because we're all just trying to use our cultural framework, our cultural understanding, to try and like, wrap our heads around it. Lorna Byrne, since she was a very young child, said that she just, they were just lights everywhere that she communicated with, that spoke to her. Like, that's how she framed it. She's like, you can call it angels, I don't know. She said it was just these beings that communicated with me openly.

• 28:52Jonathan Cohen?

  And one last thing before we let you jump into this mire that we're causing. Mime's favorite response, after she goes on an episode and talks to someone who has an experience like this, she says, "If aliens are millions of years more advanced, do they really need to communicate through this one person? Can't they find another way to share the information to humanity that we're supposed to change?"

• 29:21Mayim Bialik?

  Well, what I say is that if, when we're talking about aliens, if we're talking about something that is likely far more sophisticated and likely possibly millions of years older than us, the fact that they might be communicating through like, random dude in the middle of the country who no one believes or has access to, like, I don't know what he's tuned into. And that, to me, is like, that's the genetic study to do. What's going on? What signaling molecules does this dude have? If he's receiving this kind of information? Also, yeah, I don't think that aliens, if they do exist and are millions of years old, that they need to use subterfuge and be like, whoops, we crashed our aircraft into Roswell.

• 30:05Mayim Bialik?

  Like, we don't know what we're doing. Like, we're talking about a level of sophistication that might not need, you know, to be communicated through orbs. But we'll let you respond.

• 30:16Speaker 03

  That is a big, big topic. It is adjacent to the study of psi phenomena, because now it is clear that consciousness and these phenomena sort of all mash together.

• 30:28Speaker 03

  I often think of stories like the miracle at Fatima in Portugal. So this wasn't all that long ago, maybe 100 years or so. But you have tens of thousands of people seeing something weird in the sky, which was interpreted in religious terms, because that's what the context was. So I'm along the same way of thinking about this as Jacques Vallée. I talk to Jacques about this fairly often. And it's not a new phenomenon. It's been around forever. And it's interpreted historically and by culture and so on, as you said. So what is it? So I think one of the reasons that from a, from an everyday embodied sense,

• 31:09Speaker 03

  it is frightening to imagine that we are saturated with other entities around, that most people, to most people is invisible. I mean, if you're already afraid of a, of an owl.

• 31:21Mayim Bialik?

  You know what? That's a low blow.

• 31:23Jonathan Cohen?

  That's great. I love it.

• 31:25Mayim Bialik?

  That's a low blow.

• 31:27Jonathan Cohen?

  If you're afraid of an owl, how are you going to feel about aliens watching you?

• 31:31Mayim Bialik?

  That was the test. That was God being like, let's see how she does with an owl, and then we'll send the aliens next.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  And the thing is, what if it wasn't an owl?

• 31:41Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 31:42Speaker 03

  See? So owls are traditionally among the various kinds of animals, spirit animals from traditionals, that you would see it as an owl, but it is actually not.

• 31:53Mayim Bialik?

  Stop it. I'm going to cry now.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  See? So I remember when I was something like 12 or 13 years old, I saw what I now interpret as a thunderbird, a gigantic eagle, like way too big to be an actual eagle. This turned out to be in the middle of Aracoi land. We were driving through that when I was a kid. And I didn't know that that was a thing for that particular heritage. But this was an eagle, which was sitting on the side of the road, which was basically about the size of the car we were in. So I remember turning to my brother, and my parents are in the front. They said, did you see that thing? Because I saw it coming like from a far distance,

• 32:37Speaker 03

  and it went past us, and it turned, and it looked at me as we went past. And so, and very, very clearly. And I didn't, I didn't feel spooked by it. I just felt, well, that's interesting. Hi, big bird. You know, you're a big, big bird, aren't you? So it took many years later until I realized that, oh, well, the thunderbird is a harbinger of the future. Okay, well, maybe I was intended to work on this stuff then, because the thunderbird said I needed to work on it.

• 33:08Mayim Bialik?

  Did anyone else in the car see it? It was just you?

• 33:11Speaker 03

  Nobody else saw it. So I don't know. It's, was it a hallucination? I don't know what it was, but it was very vivid. And it, you know, you can have, it's like a lucid dream or a dream where things seem solidly real. I have no way of knowing if it was real or not. I felt real, felt as real as people say in a psychedelic trip, that this was realer than real, like more vividly real. Well, what do we do with that? Somebody takes DMT, and they started communicating with the machine elves. They certainly seem real during those 10 minutes that you're in there. So I know, I have friends who are similar to Jonathan,

• 33:53Speaker 03

  who can evoke such things, either visually or can hear it sometimes, or both. And I can't do that. And eternally, it's because I'm afraid of it. I don't want my owl to suddenly turn into something that's not an owl. I'm comfortable with an owl.

• 34:12Mayim Bialik?

  Now you're just rubbing it in. Okay, like now you're just being arrogant.

• 34:16Speaker 03

  Now I have the feeling about ravens. So I was, I walk in the morning, and this morning I walked past two ravens, this morning, who are on the ground, and they were looking at me. You could tell if, you know, if especially ravens are pretty big birds. They were looking at me as I was going past. And mentally, I'm thinking, hello, boys. How's it going? No, I didn't want, I was not going to approach them because I was on a fast walk. But I very rarely will see ravens around here.

• 34:45Mayim Bialik?

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• 35:30Mayim Bialik?

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• 36:15Mayim Bialik?

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• 36:21Speaker 03

  The previous time I saw ravens, I had written about ravens as omens in that book. In fact, I mentioned it in my book. I talk about ravens very early on in there. And that morning, I heard ravens making these strange sounds. So a lot of this has to do with what you're open to. What are you going to pay attention to? It would have been easy to simply ignore it and say, well, there are a bunch of birds over there. But I've become more open to the, to the historical ways of not filtering as much, which is very hard to do as a scientist, because I spend 90% of my time in analytical mode, which is pushing all of that away.

• 37:05Speaker 03

  But then you can switch back into a different mode. And I assume, Jonathan, that that is true with you as well. You can switch into a mode where suddenly this stuff becomes front and center, as opposed to most of the time, it's actually pushed away.

• 37:17Jonathan Cohen?

  You can't be in a highly analytical mode or doing a lot of things while this is happening. Like, sometimes it can come in. But yeah, and I think people are also like, it's a slippery slope, because it can all of a sudden degrade your reality. Right? You can be lost in this internal maze of omens and signals and signs, and what should I actually do about it? And, you know, sometimes the question is like, why get any of this at all? Similar to what you were talking about of people who are overwhelmed by too much telepathic information. If you're sitting on the bus and you're hearing everyone's thoughts, and you can't differentiate, like, why get this information? And Elizabeth Krone also said this, right?

• 38:00Jonathan Cohen?

  She's like, why am I getting all of this information and these world events? And I'm seeing these horrific plane crashes? Like, what am I supposed to do with this?

• 38:08Speaker 03

  And then you can feel guilty about not letting somebody know, even though it's not obvious who you would tell. And there's a danger in it too, because then they can think you caused it.

• 38:18Mayim Bialik?

  This is, I don't know if you know about the Premonitions Bureau? I'm sure you do. You know, where they tried to catalog, you know, specifically with psychiatric patients who often were wrong. But if they are right one time, right? That's enormously significant. Meaning, you can have someone who you would otherwise diagnose as a paranoid schizophrenic, right? Or someone in a psychotic break, and they're predicting all sorts of things, right? With all sorts of detail. But if one thing that they predict has, you know, by Julia Mossbridge's designation, right? Three to seven things that are indisputably accurate about a coal mine disaster, right? Or any train wreck.

• 39:01Mayim Bialik?

  There is no statistical reason why they should be correct anytime. And it doesn't mean that there's not other things going on, right? Psychiatrically, that, you know, we can absolutely talk about and analyze. But there is no way to explain away the accuracy with which they can predict something. That's significant.

• 39:25Speaker 03

  Look at this from the point of view of an intelligence analyst. They're dealing with a huge amount of noise. So what they look for are commonalities. So if you have 100 schizophrenics who are describing something, and it turns out that there is a commonality, that's still very useful. But it would take somebody to actually do the analysis of all of this horribly noisy information and kind of squish it into something that makes sense. So the one thing we haven't talked about yet is the Global Consciousness Project. Because this is yet another way of, that we're investigating to see, is there actually some kind of connectivity at a global scale? And so this is a project that started out of the Princeton Pair Lab. Roger Nelson started this thing.

• 40:10Speaker 03

  Have you talked about this before on your show?

• 40:12Mayim Bialik?

  I don't think so, no.

• 40:14Speaker 03

  So the background is this. So in the laboratory, to study mind-matter interaction, the, one of the first instruments that was developed was a true random number generator, where you have a quantum source for generating random bits. And in the laboratory, the usual protocol was, give somebody the intention that they'll press a button, a whole bunch of bits are generated, but your job is get more one bits than zero bits. And so you do, you press the button, you get some kind of result. And now press the button and get more zero bits. And now press it again and don't do anything. So that's called a tri-polar protocol. And so if you look at the data from the Pair Lab and other labs, it's very clear that probabilistically that happens.

• 40:59Speaker 03

  Well, it shouldn't happen. In fact, we know during the control period that it's give a random walk around zero. So Roger Nelson was one of the researchers there. And, and he got the idea that you cannot have intention without also having attention. And so maybe what we're seeing is a combination of two things here. One is focused attention with a little spin on top, which is the intention that you give somebody. But maybe attention alone does something. So he started a line of work called field consciousness experiments, where you go into a group of people who are doing something along the same wavelength, like meditators or a chorus group or something like that,

• 41:42Speaker 03

  and put a random generator in the vicinity and didn't tell anybody. And then had control data before they started doing whatever the group did, and then during the group, and then after the group. And sure enough, during coherent moments of mental attention in a group, you see a deviation from chance.

• 41:59Mayim Bialik?

  It's low entropy, right?

• 42:01Speaker 03

  Yes, it's a negentropic deviation. So we figured, okay, you need a model of something like dual aspect monism to begin to understand why this could even happen. Dual aspect monism is saying that, yes, there is a physical world. There is a world of matter, but there's also a world of the mental world. And they are correlated because they come out of the same place. What is the same place is called the unis mundis, the one world, the one holistic world. But these two things split. And because they come out of the same source, as with any correlation, they're correlated, right? They're, they're, they have a common source. So mind and matter are inextrably linked.

• 42:43Speaker 03

  So if you have mind going into an unusual state of coherence, then matter that's associated with the mind has to also go into a state of coherence. How do we see that? We see it through a negentropic effect. So in 1998, after a number of us had been doing these experiments, like one-off experiments with a big TV show happening, like the Academy Awards, where millions of people are mentally in the same time, place, we devised this worldwide network that Roger called the Global Consciousness Project to take advantage of predicted events where we knew that millions of people would be paying attention to the same thing at the same time,

• 43:26Speaker 03

  or unpredicted events like terrorist attacks and deaths of celebrities and things like that. Again, pulled by media, where hundreds of millions to billions of people suddenly go into a mental coherent state. Then the question is, well, what happens to this worldwide network of random generators? Because they were distributed in cities around the world. And so we did 500 formal events. And the way it would work is there either be a predicted event or some unpredicted event, but we would say, we're going to define that the event of interest was from this time to that time. And then we're going to look at the data. And we used the same method of analysis in each case.

• 44:08Speaker 03

  So after 500 events, the odds against chance of seeing a negentropic effect was three trillion to one. It just kept getting more and more significant the further along we went. There are various interpretations about what's going on, but my favorite interpretation is something like dual aspect monism. We're seeing minds becoming coherent and the physical world does too. And there's nothing magical about random number generators. It's just easier to collect the data automatically. And statistically, it's very easy to see a deviation. So that is suggesting that, at least at an unconscious level, that this, this connectivity that we're talking about is really real, that a whole bunch of people will have a similar mental experience

• 44:53Speaker 03

  and aspects of the physical world changes as a result. That's really interesting now because it means not only from one to one person, but community to community. If you have a community next door that is not doing so well and is sending out vibes of noise, even though you're trying to meditate and be quiet where you are, you're going to be influenced by them.

• 45:16Mayim Bialik?

  This also speaks to, you know, the power of prayer, the notion of a community praying for you and what that means, right? In, in the Jewish tradition, if someone has survived a life-threatening crisis, there's a prayer that is recited and you have to recite it, right? In the presence of the community, even Kaddish, right? The prayer for mourning, you have to say in a group of 10 people because there is something about being present, right? In a community, so many traditions, you know, have these kinds of notions of things change when people feel more connected and are more connected.

• 45:56Mayim Bialik?

  It's really, it's a very special, you know, way also to, to approach sort of our existence. That it changes the way you think about war, about conflict, right? Nonviolent communication is one of the, one of the methods, right? That are often used in these high, high conflict places to say, it matters if you reflect, right? What the other person is experiencing. It's, this really, it works very consistently. Dr. Radin, it's such a pleasure to talk to you. And this was really such a great conversation. We, we really appreciate your time. Where can people find out not just about the science of magic, but all of the other things that you do?

• 46:38Speaker 03

  I work at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, which is noetic.org, N-O-E-T-I-C. My personal website is deanradin.com. And I also co-founded a company that's developing a genetic treatment for dementia, which points back into what you were mentioning before. Is there a genetic difference among people who have these abilities versus not? We think the answer is yes. But we're still waiting for the $10 million to be able to do the study that we want, which would require a lot of exemplars to really narrow it down. The, the company I developed or I co-founded is partially predicated on the idea that would it be possible

• 47:23Speaker 03

  to genetically edit somebody, a human, temporarily, to take them from wherever they were and turn them into a psychically talented person? And I think the answer is yes. I think we'll eventually get there.

• 47:38Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan is offering me up as a candidate.

• 47:40Jonathan Cohen?

  Do you need guinea pigs?

• 47:41Speaker 03

  But the opposite is also true.

• 47:43Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  The opposite is true. So if you get somebody who is diagnosed as schizophrenic and they can't stand it, we may be able to turn off all of the sensitivities that they're getting and make, you know, make them feel, quote, "normal" again.

• 47:56Jonathan Cohen?

  How do we do that?

• 47:58Mayim Bialik?

  Well, I'll explain the genetics to you later if you'd like.

• 48:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can up-regulate or down-regulate, let's put it that way.

• 48:03Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, well, and also, we didn't get to talk about it, but something we're very interested in is the Bangston method. And this notion of kind of what it means to heal, to have that capability, and what some of those changes are, which again is, is, you know, part of the connectivity conversation. Thank you so much for bringing the world of science fiction into the true scientific vernacular for us. We really appreciate it.

• 48:25Speaker 03

  My pleasure.

• 48:30Mayim Bialik?

  Definitely freaked me out when he said, maybe it wasn't an owl. I don't want to think about that.

• 48:36Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, it could have been, what, what he said was, if you're scared of the owl, then the universe is not going to test you by showing you anything other than the owl. So you're limiting your potential. Because what, what do you say? You say, why can't I summon the lights? How come the lights don't come to me?

• 48:58Mayim Bialik?

  You know what? I have never been so thrilled to be insulted on this podcast than when he was like, well, you know, some people can't deal with an owl, so.

• 49:09Jonathan Cohen?

  How are they going to deal with an alien?

• 49:11Mayim Bialik?

  But plenty of fearful people see things and have contact with aliens. It's not just about fear.

• 49:17Jonathan Cohen?

  Okay, let's, let's actually talk about this for a second. You walk into the backyard.

• 49:24Mayim Bialik?

  I get scared all the time.

• 49:25Jonathan Cohen?

  And there's an alien. What, what are you going to do? What's your first response?

• 49:32Mayim Bialik?

  I mean,

• 49:33Jonathan Cohen?

  curiosity.

• 49:35Mayim Bialik?

  Here's the thing, I think, you know what I think?

• 49:37Jonathan Cohen?

  You get scared when you hear someone that you don't expect in the hallway that you're adjacent to. Imagine you saw an alien and then every sound that you hear in your house, you're gonna be like.

• 49:52Mayim Bialik?

  I think what's more accurate, that what Jonathan's trying to describe is, I sometimes get scared when I just forget he's in the next room. And I'll walk into a room and he's right there and it freaks me out. But you know what I'm gonna say? You know what I first thought of?

• 50:03Jonathan Cohen?

  You need to put a little bell around your aliens.

• 50:05Mayim Bialik?

  When, when you are a parent of a young child who has, let's say, a medical crisis, one would assume, and it is a very terrifying experience. I found that when I was in situations that were, I had a few that were very, very time sensitive.

• 50:23Jonathan Cohen?

  You're good in a crisis.

• 50:24Mayim Bialik?

  I'm good in a crisis. So I would like to think that even though I am fearful, and I mean, I cried a couple of times in this episode, just kept kind of shoving it down. I would like to think that if I were confronted with an alien, I would be able to be in a different state. That I would be able to, you know, process something unusual or exceptional that was happening in, in that moment. I don't want to think I would just run screaming.

• 50:51Jonathan Cohen?

  But it's not a high intensity situation in so much as.

• 50:56Mayim Bialik?

  I'm sorry, interfacing with an alien? That sounds pretty intense.

• 50:59Jonathan Cohen?

  There's not a time lock like there is with a child who you need to take action. There's no immediate action that you know you should take. It's an open-ended scenario, which you hate. You hate small talk.

• 51:12Jonathan Cohen?

  You hate parties. Now you have to interface.

• 51:14Mayim Bialik?

  With an alien.

• 51:15Jonathan Cohen?

  With an alien who you don't even know how they, like, what their social customs are?

• 51:19Mayim Bialik?

  Dr. Radin is someone that, that we've been wanting to talk to for a long time. And you know what? He,

• 51:27Mayim Bialik?

  he, he really, I, it was a different flavor of understanding that I think I hadn't had before.

• 51:33Jonathan Cohen?

  What are your biggest takeaways? Well, there was a couple of moments where you freaked out.

• 51:37Mayim Bialik?

  He very casually was like, well, now we know that like, you know, consciousness and communication with non-human intelligence, they're all just mushed together. Oh.

• 51:48Mayim Bialik?

  I was like, okay, so we've now progressed from the consciousness is fundamental conversation to expanding consciousness not only gets you in touch with deeper parts of yourself, a feeling of connection with the universe. When you are in an altered state of consciousness or when you interact with the larger consciousness system, the LCS, right? You are then open to other realms of communication, whether that be energetic, whether that be

• 52:27Mayim Bialik?

  paranormal. Like, it's kind of all the same thing. What is the human mind capable of?

• 52:35Jonathan Cohen?

  How did you feel when you heard?

• 52:38Mayim Bialik?

  Terrified.

• 52:39Jonathan Cohen?

  Great.

• 52:41Mayim Bialik?

  What were you gonna ask?

• 52:43Jonathan Cohen?

  That you're processing all this information, that your conscious awareness is not actually processing. The physiologic, and what we're talking about is that you're responding to things in the future based on the test, people's like knowing if it's gonna be a calm image or a.

• 53:00Mayim Bialik?

  Yes. So the first thing I thought of was the thalamus, which is like the, you know, filtering kind of relay station for.

• 53:07Jonathan Cohen?

  What am I gonna say next? Is it fearful or, or calming?

• 53:12Mayim Bialik?

  I don't know. Well, but that's also subjective and, and there are also, and Dr. Radin didn't get into it. There are ways that we can determine neutral, just like with words, right? Like, and this was when I was in, you know, training in, in neuroscience, you know? We learned about what are neutral words? You know, there, there are, you know, ways to sort of devise these sorts of things. But, you know, I thought about the thalamus and I did. I, I looked up the thalamus as a processing center for psychic information. And the first thing that came up, I think, is an AI whatever, search engine? And yeah, it made sure to tell me that none of this is scientifically, you know, verifiable or legitimate.

• 53:54Mayim Bialik?

  But I, I, I think that that's hooey. Because if we know that the thalamus is processing and helping us understand all sorts of information that needs to be filtered out. You know, the fact that we're, my favorite example, like, we're wearing clothing right now. That's not comfortable. Like, we should, we should be naked, right?

• 54:15Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, the air conditioning would be a little cold.

• 54:16Mayim Bialik?

  But there's like, there's a sense of constriction. There's a sense of, you know, constant stimulation of fabric on clothing, which if you have, you know, known or loved anyone who's on the spectrum, they're, they have a hard time filtering that out, right? So why should we think that the thalamus wouldn't also be responsible for filtering out all of the kinds of information that would make it very difficult for you to, to function? And people who report being overwhelmed by psychic information, by energetic information, that's exactly what it seems like. They cannot filter it out and they cannot distinguish between what is, I don't want to say important, because that feels like the wrong word, but what should be paid attention to and what should be set aside?

• 54:59Mayim Bialik?

  And that combination, you know, when you think of children who are in a state of wonder, right? And they can't necessarily tell the difference between reality, between fantasy, and it all kind of blends together. That's a beautiful, natural state, right? That our brain can, can function in. My children were very pragmatic, but that's just them.

• 55:21Jonathan Cohen?

  Shocking.

• 55:24Jonathan Cohen?

  That's the thing that, that he said, right? Is like, why would you want to do this? Because it can be overwhelming. Why would you want to increase your intuitive ability? And there's a level of discernment required.

• 55:36Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 55:36Jonathan Cohen?

  When you're opening up that sense and that capability.

• 55:40Mayim Bialik?

  Training.

• 55:40Jonathan Cohen?

  You need to know what information is relevant and what isn't.

• 55:43Mayim Bialik?

  Well, yeah, you've talked about this with healing. You have to know what's yours and what's not.

• 55:49Jonathan Cohen?

  What's yours and what's not and what's useful.

• 55:51Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 55:52Jonathan Cohen?

  The same is true in creative work, right? It's like, you can have a thousand creative ideas. What do you pursue? What do you put your time in? You can't do everything. You can't follow every intuitive signal or sign, because you, you know, you have to focus it in a way.

• 56:07Mayim Bialik?

  This is one of my challenges, and Engineer Aton, who's a musician, knows this. There's an infinite number of things you can do with notes. There's just like an infinite number. Think of all the songs that have been written. I mean, sometimes you hear a song and you're like, that sounds like this. But generally speaking, there's, there's an infinite number of things you can do. How do you choose? This is one of my challenges with writing music. And I've tried to write music. I'm like, there's too many choices. I can't pick it. I have no sense of when it's done, when it's right. I just like, I could write a poem and rework it a gazillion times. You're a poet. I don't know how you decide when it's done. I don't like that. I like a beginning and a middle and an end. I like cooking. You have a recipe and you do the thing and then you put it in the oven and it's done.

• 56:52Mayim Bialik?

  That's what I like.

• 56:56Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm starting the Kickstarter to have you go to the Noetic Institute.

• 57:02Mayim Bialik?

  This episode has been brought to you by a lack of estrogen.

• 57:06Jonathan Cohen?

  Don't think there's anything left to say after that.

• 57:08Mayim Bialik?

  Please join us over on Substack. Also, I cannot wait to talk to our breakers about this, this notion of like, are you seeing an omen, right? A prediction? Gotta hear about owls, crows, name an animal, snakes. This one with snakes. There's something with snakes. All right, from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.