Jonny Wilkinson: Winning The World Cup Led To My Darkest Days

Jonny Wilkinson is one of the most famous rugby players of all time. With a career spanning two decades, he has won the rugby World Cup, the Premiership, the Heineken Cup, the Six Nations, and the Top 14. For all those years, people didn’t really know what drove Jonny. Because when he was playing rugby, Jonny never felt good enough. Even the highest achievements in the sport would hold back his insecurities for only a few minutes. The journey of how he was able to break this toxic cycle and appreciate himself and the world around him to the full is one of the most inspiring stories we’ve ever heard. Jonny’s own podcast, I Am, is available for download now. Follow Jonny: Twitter - https://twitter.com/JonnyWilkinson Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I had to achieve, I had to be perfect. I guess ultimately take on the suffering.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  The player of the tournament, Jonny Wilkinson. A genuine sporting legend. How much pressure has this man been under this week?

• 0:14Speaker 00

  For me, it was do or die on the field. So therefore, where other people kind of called it quits and threw in the towel, I didn't have the choice.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  Here it is for Jonny. This will go down in history.

• 0:23Steven Bartlett?

  Was your mental health better or worse after that moment?

• 0:27Speaker 00

  When I was on the field in the zone, I was operating at a level I couldn't even understand. Waking up the next morning, you know, leaves you in the cold light of day. I thought there was going to be joy here. I was convinced there isn't. I spent my life being very fit, but not really that healthy. Health is about what fitness can come out of. Unless you look after health, it's dangerous. People say, I wish I'd made more of my life, wish I'd enjoyed every moment. But that starts with health. Working on someone else really doesn't work for anyone. Working on yourself tends to work for everyone.

• 0:58Steven Bartlett?

  So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:15Steven Bartlett?

  Jonny, you went on to become one of the real greats in rugby. And I remember watching you in my living room as a very, very young kid on the screen in awe, not just in that 2003 moment, but, but long before then. And when I think about, and when I sit here with guests that are athletes or successful entrepreneurs, whatever they might be, they sometimes, but not usually, can give me a sort of a fairly accurate description of what happened in the earlier phases of life that would, would mould them to become that champion or that CEO that they later were. You're someone that is incredibly self-aware. So I was very much looking forward to asking you the same question, which is, when you reflect on the early stages of your life, what were the like defining moulding experiences,

• 1:57Steven Bartlett?

  for better or for worse, that you would point at and say, that's probably why, or at least that led to in part who I became later in life?

• 2:08Speaker 00

  I think the best way of answering that would be to say that in my younger days, I'm very young, without any...

• 2:18Speaker 00

  Any kind of triggering events, certainly not that I can um remember or ever ever sort of come into contact with.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  I had enormous passion and some kind of adeptness for ball skills. So if I had a ball in my hand, things just made sense. I could work out, I could, I could. In my sort of head, I could have a uh some uh some sort of target, some sort of goal, something to do with that ball and I could, I could work it out. That was part of the intelligence I had was just, I could bring those things about relatively effortlessly.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  And I had a real passion for exploring that. It still is the case of me, I still find myself uh playing basketball and, and often so much of this I'll do on my own because it's my relationship with that inner capacity I have that interests me, not to show what I can do, but it's that sense of, I guess, being at home. And that's where a huge amount of the revelations I have in life come from, from that kind of relationship. However, there was also another relationship, which again, without the triggering event, um, I grew up with an immense sense of doom and fear about everything.

• 3:48Speaker 00

  So I had this incredible sort of passion and inclination towards expressing myself with with balls and skills and, and in competition as well, but the competition side was a need. That wasn't a desire, the, the, the achievement, um, all that stuff was obsessive, um, but from a negative perspective, because I had this sense of doom surrounding everything.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  That was my disconnect, if you like. I saw other people handling situations that seemed so simple to them, but for me insurmountable. And yet, when they looked at me with regards to, oh, you know, with a ball in my hand, what they thought was impossible for me just was relatively straightforward. And I think those two sides of my path meant that I had this constant drive to just find myself in a garden with a ball in my hand. That's all hours of the day and night, most of the time. It's all I talk about, all I talked about, all I spoke about, all I did. And yet, on the other hand, I had this ever-present fear that I built

• 4:57Speaker 00

  this, if you like, defence mechanism, coping, strategy, but ultimately, identity around how to somehow survive that fear. And that, for me, that mechanism I put in place was I had to achieve, I had to be perfect, and I had to, I guess, ultimately take on the suffering and live that kind of martyr, saviour, stroke warrior archetype. And as such, I found myself really, really

• 5:38Speaker 00

  uncomfortable with when things were seemingly going well. It just, yeah, I found that horrendously difficult to handle. As a result, I would revert to that defence mechanism of creating problems if there weren't. So I was constantly looking in a state of kind of survival for where the next problem was, because I was convinced with this ever-present sense of fear that there was a threat and it was there. And so, yeah, those two paths essentially.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  Weaved in and out with each other throughout my entire life, but there was no doubt that my ability on the field at times to be in that zone was where I felt my genius. But at the same time, the other strength I had was that for me, it was do or die on the field. So therefore where other people kind of called it quits and threw in the towel, I didn't have the choice. Yeah, the fear didn't just drop off and let me just sit down for a bit. So I could go and go and go and go.

• 6:37Steven Bartlett?

  When you talked about your childhood there, you said despite there being a traumatic event that had created this kind of perspective you had about this sort of fear, but also this sense of real peace and homelessness, you described it when you have a ball.

• 6:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:52Steven Bartlett?

  Your dad Phil was a rugby player and a football player.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Cricket.

• 6:56Steven Bartlett?

  Cricket.

• 6:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, rugby and cricket. Yeah, those are just two things.

• 6:59Steven Bartlett?

  Okay. What was his influence on you? Because it's, you know, when I, when I read that he was also a sports player in his own right. That's kind of typically the story you, you expect to hear. I sat here with Eddie Hearn as well. His dad works in the same business. I've sat here with CEOs, their dad works in the same business. And the interesting thing I, I connected, and I'm not making any assumptions here. This is why I'm asking the question is in the case of Eddie, in the case of Umar Kamani, who is at Boohoo. They describe a very similar thing, a real sense of kind of almost innate feeling of pressure to succeed. And they also at times couldn't necessarily tell you where it comes from. Was, did you, either of your parents play a role in that, in that perceived sense of pressure to succeed?

• 7:42Speaker 00

  No, I sort of, like I said, I'm heavily into the introspective side of all this and, and part of that kind of

• 7:52Speaker 00

  search now for potential is, is where that's moved. It used to be grabbing the external and trying to expand physically, you know, what more can I have? What more can, how can more people know my name or everything that could almost, yeah, expand my reach and, and presence on a physical level. Now no really, no longer interests me. It's, it's how to allow my presence, you know, in that non-physical space. And my sort of journey of looking into that has meant, you know, I've, I've questioned everything and yeah, my, my upbringing was, was, you know, fantastic in terms of that, you know.

• 8:32Speaker 00

  I had every opportunity to go and do what I wanted to do. Um, I have my brother there as well and my parents all sporty. But there was just something in me which had latched on. Yeah. And this is something I I feel maybe it's something I brought with me into this world from a, you know, like a karmic positioning whereby I was always going to grab things that way. I was I was susceptible to understanding things a certain way. Um, but for me, you know, I I I sort of pushed my parents hard. Yeah, I can't imagine it was easy, my brother too, in the way that I was. I was sort of, I challenged them in ways, you know, I I didn't give up.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  And a lot of that, like I said, was, well, all of the the irrational stuff came from the need. For them, it was baffling, but they had their lives and I appreciate that. This is always the case that people are always doing their best. And that's what I remember about our family the most is that everyone's always doing their best. And I look at everyone now and realize that, you know, people are where they're supposed to be and just giving it their all. And and what's been so, so powerful for me is just being able to switch that interest with what giving my best means is more of an unlocking and letting go and shedding than a what more can I grab? And and, you know, where that path turned around is perhaps where, you know, where I felt

• 9:58Speaker 00

  the the true understanding of of what this journey's been about as opposed to where I was looking to. Where did it come from? What happened here? Et cetera, et cetera. It's more of a kind of, uh, it was just about that.

• 10:08Steven Bartlett?

  You said something there which some people might skip over, which is you said it might have been something you inherited karmically or, you know, and that reminded me of something I'd I'd heard you say previously about being able to sort of inherit generational messages or whatever that might be. Do you believe in that? Do you believe that we're passing messages from one generation to another within within ourselves and that that is shaping our lives?

• 10:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I I believe that the.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  The role of karma is basically a memory and it's that kind of, it's the way we've remembered things. And whilst for me, for example, when I'm stuck in that really physical identification of this is who I am, as in I'm me, I'm Johnny, and then I do have a start to my story and an end. But as I've been sort of exploring, letting go a bit more of that, that kind of physical identity of right now, I just tend to feel that it opens up a different understanding of memory, you know. If we're a process of that evolution, then the cells in our body have a memory that goes back a long, long way. Yeah, and that's impossible to separate.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  You know, where we come from, from parents, and where they, from their parents, from their parents, from their parents, you know, everything is all interconnected. But we put a stop and a start on it. And it seems, yeah, one of the things I find so, so interesting when looking at that is that

• 11:34Speaker 00

  I'm very interested in the science side of it too, and looking at the desire of science to find, you know, what it is that we're made of, and yet they keep coming up with it's nothing. And then they go to, well, what is it we're living in? And they keep finding out that it's unending. And yet, who we are, we seem to manage to say, despite the fact it's made of nothing and it's unending, we found a way of saying, but we're made of this, we start here and we stop there. It just doesn't make sense to me anymore. Whereas before, you know, you live in those boundaries, what you see inherits those boundaries. And I think as I've released those, you start to, not so much question, but just allow for different understandings to take hold. And one of those is that,

• 12:17Speaker 00

  that, you know, I find it fascinating to look at, yeah, I've got a young child and I find it fascinating to look at children enter and they're all so different. How are they so different? And then you say, oh, well, yeah, it's, it might be to do with how their parents have behaved during the, during the, the sort of, um, yeah, the, the months preceding the birth and yes, but even then, why the parents behave in that way? Goes on and on, and it just goes back to the same way that I still believe that we're all doing our best, but there's a part which we bring with us into this, into this space. And, you know, I feel like there is, there is nature and there's, there's that nurture side, but that nature, yeah, but that,

• 12:59Speaker 00

  that nurturing has been going on forever and it's, and it's important that we have a bias and a, and a stance. Because without it. I don't think you can have this physical experience unless there's something holding you in it. And I think that's the point is to find out what that is and and engage with it, embrace it and enjoy it.

• 13:18Steven Bartlett?

  And what is holding you within this physical experience? What is your stance?

• 13:22Speaker 00

  It's so, so interesting, that question, you know, at the beginning I'd have said, oh, you know, this, what I'm telling you about my fear. And then I'm talking about my need to survive and then unlocking that and going beyond it. And you think, oh, I understand it. And you get challenged again. Oh, where did that come from? Oh, I think I understand that now. And I feel so much better. Challenged again. Where do these challenges keep coming from? And I think that's the, the part of me understanding what my stance is, is an ongoing process. An ongoing process of just enjoying challenge and embracing it. And I think I use the kind of

• 14:02Speaker 00

  expression when I talk to some of the guys I, I train with and, and the, when they're, they're doing their sort of kicking with the, the rugby. Is that it's all about sort of finding that absolute peace and, and inner environment that allows you to go and explore this opportunity you've got ahead of you. And every time you find that you can't find that state, it's because you're holding on to something. It's never because you don't know something or because you haven't learned something. It's because you're holding on to something you don't need. And you have sessions where at the end of it, people are feeling like, I feel amazing. And you're kind of thinking, yeah, great. Just wait till tomorrow. Because this idea is tomorrow, I'll still feel amazing. But then the next day you're, how do you feel?

• 14:46Speaker 00

  I don't know. I just feel a bit like this. Why? It's because each of those sessions that we're doing is like a, a light that shines into your, your garage where you think you've cleared out all the bags in your garage that you don't need anymore. And then you think, that's all clear. And then a slightly brighter light comes in the next day and you're like, oh, there's loads of stuff over there. I didn't see that. I better go and clear that. Now that, the more you clear, the more space you find in there.

• 15:06Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  But to think you're going to get to the end of that, for me, to think I'm going to sort of find out why I'm here. What I think I'm going to find out is it's my choice to be here. And that's the beautiful part is the proactive reason for being here.

• 15:20Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 15:20Speaker 00

  As we said in the question, it was like, what's holding you here? I think now probably the, the way I really see that is, is what's my calling? What's my purpose? When that's fulfilled, uh, that'll be an interesting moment. But I don't see that being anytime soon.

• 15:34Steven Bartlett?

  It's really interesting reframing of the situation because you're right, we spend our lives looking for some kind of external given reason for us are in existence, but flipping that and saying, well, yeah, I'm choosing to be here and I'm choosing to be here because of the purpose that I've decided on is a really powerful thing because, yeah, I mean, in my DMs and messages I get from kids, it's this kind of outside, external search for this Easter egg that they were born to find called their passion and their purpose. And when they can't find the singular Easter egg somewhere, they fall into such tremendous like frustration and feelings of inadequacy. I haven't found my purpose. That means I'm a piece of shit. And you know, that kind of that spiraled downwards. One of the things

• 16:16Steven Bartlett?

  you you touched on there was the feeling of peace and you know, and then the and also just before that, you talked about letting go of something because we're holding on to something and that thing often is identity and expectation. Something I've definitely done in my life is held too much on to a sense of identity and that's really caused me lots of problems. As I read through your story, starting from your very early days in Newcastle to later, it became apparent that you were you were holding more and more on to this expectation and identity, which you'd earned from your accomplishment. And that was having a detrimental impact on your peace.

• 16:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:57Steven Bartlett?

  So talk to me about identity and the journey you've been on there.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  I think for me, perhaps overriding understanding, and it comes, I think, from a lot of the way I doubt my sort of immature days of trying to understand that fear and what was going to transcend it, what was going to help me transcend it. And that understanding was, I'll solve it. And when I solve it, this fear, machine.

• 17:26Speaker 00

  Will suddenly turn into a joy machine. My suffering is gonna result in joy. Interestingly enough, by feeding that fear with all the reassurance, whether it be hours and hours and hours upon of kicking or training that's telling me, you know, giving me the greatest guarantee I could possibly hope for, which was no guarantee at all, never did anything, but it it never sort of fulfilled itself, satisfied itself, but that was the best I could do to try and reassure the fear of that moment, would say, look, I can do it. You don't have to worry, I can do it. But of course, as soon as I stopped doing it, the fear comes back and says, can you really do it? Better do another one. And so trying to solve it by feeding reassurance to a fear machine, the fear machine just becomes a bigger fear machine

• 18:10Speaker 00

  that needs more reassurance to get the same hit. Trying to get that that same hit just meant more and more reassurance. So you're building, I was building greater habits and needs to keep suffering. So I could keep solving. So you lock yourself into that cycle. And that cycle, when you're locked into it, compared to when you're not, that's the only difference between why you speak about expectation and fear of failure and pressure. It's just because you're in the cycle. It's not a reality to life, it's the reality to the cycle. Um, certainly to my cycle. And when I'm outside of that, when I'm feeling good, for example, in the middle of the game where you're you're in the zone, if you could articulate anything in that

• 18:54Speaker 00

  sort of mind space. You know, what's the pressure like in there? What are you talking about? How can there be a pressure to now? When you're in the now, there's no consequences to the now. Because it's now, there's no then or before or after. So you can't have consequences, you can't have pressure. It's now. And so deeply understanding that versus the cycle, I guess, was where I realized what I was trying to do with all this identity was answer something.

• 19:25Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  Was answer a problem, the identity was creating the problem and the identity was about solving the problem. I had to keep the problem to keep the identity and I had to keep trying solving it to keep the identity as well. It was never gonna go anywhere. And I think my big issue with all that was I was trying to answer something. I was trying to find, as we said before, in a world made of nothing, universe made of nothing, that's that's ever ongoing. I was trying to find that answer. And that answer for me was. From a, an identity perspective, was about working stuff out logically. And yet, all my peace and my joy came from when my mind was being, I guess, inspired by my heart.

• 20:10Speaker 00

  I spent most of my time trying to almost, I guess, inform my heart through my head. It was what I was trying to do. I wasn't listening to that one moment where I felt beautiful. And then learning from that, I was learning from the ninety nine percent where I was feeling so stressed and suffering. And I was using that as my guide. I was using my head as my guide. And I think the, undoubtedly, the, the change in me has been to let go of the need to find an answer. To have that trust in that there is not going to be an answer. There is going to be an ever-expanding, beautiful journey, which, when you remove the answer, it's no longer a journey because it's not going anywhere.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  It's an adventure. And then that's what the now feels like to me. I think, yeah, for me, that identity was a massive relative existence on a social level. How did I measure up? How did I compare? All of that to do with trying to answer that problem. Basically, to have this fear, I'm somehow not worthy or deserving of having what I want, how I want it. And therefore, I've got to manipulate it by looking for what's going to get in the way of it. And how can I control that to see if I can get some of it anyway? Instead of that feeling when you're in the now, which is this universe is working for me.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  And we're friends. We're not, yeah, we're not trying to enter into some kind of tricky sort of, I don't know, shady deal where, you know, we're both trying to con each other. It's like, no, no, we're, we're in this together. Some like zero sum game where one of you can win and the other one, yeah. Yeah, it was, yeah, for me, that was always the guess. Why you could never rest easy because something went well. That was the time to be like, oh, you know, this is where your life might have lost out because I'm doing well. So life's not gonna, how's life gonna come back and get me because I've just tricked life? You know, I've gotten something out of it. And it's now like, I just gonna want repayment for this. And you're gonna get injured or something. You're gonna get injured or you're gonna, and, and I guess in a way, when you pride yourself on that perfectionism and the achievements and the.

• 22:16Speaker 00

  Which achievements basically also comes down to how other people see you, feel about you, what they think of you. And when you sort of, you know, when you enter into to that kind of space, it's, you know, humiliation is perhaps the biggest fall. You know, that's the one when you pride yourself so much on being perfect, the thing that scares the hell out of you, I think, from a physical perspective, it's living and dying.

• 22:47Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  On an identity level, it's humiliation. And, you know, that was at the basis of a lot of the training was it would be so humiliating for me. And the more well known you become, the greater the opportunity of humiliation. When you're the unknown, it's kind of like, it doesn't matter too much, you know, when you're playing down at the park and you miss one, no one's watching, you can't like, I can handle that. But, you know, 80,000 people, millions on TV, when everyone knows you and they're all thinking, don't worry, he's got this.

• 23:12Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 23:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the moment.

• 23:14Steven Bartlett?

  Your, your battle with, you know, fear perfectionism, whatever you want to call it, ultimately led to an obsession on the training ground, right? And you described that obsession on the training ground as actually a distraction from the fear that like really never worked in terms of filling the void. I, I sat here while you were saying that, and I said, if Jonny at 16, 17, 18, or before, had the mindset you have now, would he ever have become the player he went on to become? Like if a 16 year old who is very similar to Jonny is listening to this right now, and he takes on all the advice that you're giving about being present and, you know, removing the fear and living with

• 23:57Steven Bartlett?

  expectation, et cetera, and living in the now, would that increase or reduce his chances of becoming World Cup champion?

• 24:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a, it's a good one. And.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  In some ways, I would have answered that quite simply by saying

• 24:19Speaker 00

  it was when I was at my best

• 24:23Speaker 00

  that I was already doing this. So at seventeen, eighteen, when I was on the field in the zone, I was operating at a level I couldn't even understand. And that's because I was having the mindset that I'm talking about now.

• 24:36Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  So I was already having it. And it was in those moments that I really shone.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  So it's not like I never had it. It's just that when I did have it in those years, I knew I was on to something. It's just the relationship I had was that in order to

• 24:54Speaker 00

  to get in the zone, I need to suffer like mad. And the more I sort of like started succeeding and feeling a bit of the zone, the more I said, I better suffer some more. The more suffering, the more zone. But of course, you just overload the suffering and you've got no room left for anything now. And I think working with guys now is the best way to answer this is that I'm kind of answering that question by working with people in that younger space.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  And one thing that's certainly, you know, it's actually very, it's impossible to do anyway, but it's it's also not the right idea is to remove too much of someone's suffering because you remove growth. So when I say suffering, probably challenge is is a better word. You know, obviously, we don't want anyone to suffer. But if you remove too much of the challenge, you remove the opportunity for growth. So in a way,

• 25:46Speaker 00

  I was going to have challenge then in whatever form. And I needed challenge. I needed, just like saying, if you keep winning all the time, you just see a plateau in your performance. And so I didn't want people to agree with me all the time. I didn't want to be written about in the papers being the best all the time. As much as asked me before the game, I'd have said, please, just let me know everything's perfect. But actually, looking back, those challenges, those moments of conflict, it's what asks you to step up and go again. So I needed the challenge. I needed all that suffering. But it's just where it crosses the line and becomes. Counterintuitive and and counterproductive, there needs to be

• 26:29Speaker 00

  an understanding of how to relate to the challenge so that you don't face the same one over and over again. I think that's what I would, I would have been interested to see was, you know, if you'd have gained some ground on that challenge then what other challenge would have come? Not that it would have been it, but it would have been a different route to see. Um, but it's largely irrelevant. It's not something I ever think about because um, it's got what I've been through and and what I've experienced in that way doesn't make me anything. Yeah, the past doesn't make the now. The now is the now. Um, and I think, you know, who I am

• 27:09Speaker 00

  is how I relate to that now. And if I'm carrying around this big idea of how I got here and what I've understood, I'm just separating myself from the now.

• 27:18Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 27:18Speaker 00

  And that's so big. If I come into the now saying, here, I'm bringing a past in, can I get in the door? The now saying, no, no, that key doesn't fit. You can't bring the past in here. You have to choose, you're gonna live, you you're gonna live sort of

• 27:34Speaker 00

  disconnected from the now and you can have your past. Or if you're going to allow that and and have a different relationship with that, then you can have more of me, you can have more of the now. I think that's uh, the same goes with the future, you know, the more you carry your past, the more you're you're carrying your future at the same time, but that same same principle applies, you know, if you really want the now, it's a case of, well, you've got a align with it and ask the now, you know, what's the now trying to do? Nothing. What are you trying to do? Something? Okay, well, there's the disconnect. And I think that's been huge in those moments on, I always come back to that moment on the field when I'm in the zone. Your identity's gone. You you you just know, it's me doing this, it's me trying to do this, there's just doing.

• 28:19Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 28:20Speaker 00

  As was happened with the two thousand and three drop goal. It's the one moment that I can say genuinely, um. It was happening without me involved. I was able to embrace it and enjoy it and experience it, but there was no me trying to do it. It happened whilst I was in it.

• 28:39Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 28:40Speaker 00

  But it wasn't me doing it.

• 28:42Steven Bartlett?

  Is that alluding to the fact that you were in a flow state in that moment?

• 28:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, whatever flow state means to to anyone, it's basically that kind of understanding. I guess that there was, for me, what felt like a very, very immediate relationship between what I was desiring and intending on the inside and the manifestation of it was almost instantaneous, as opposed to the way people look at it, which is like, I've got my goals and and over time, you know, they're going to come together to form this. It was

• 29:19Speaker 00

  it was almost kind of instantaneous in that respect. And that's that's where that sense of past and future disappeared because it was inside outside were you lost their separation.

• 29:32Steven Bartlett?

  Was your mental health um better or worse after that moment?

• 29:38Speaker 00

  Um, I think it was a a sort of catalyst for maybe a a deepening or intensifying or an acceleration of what was already in place, definitely um.

• 29:58Speaker 00

  But it wasn't

• 30:01Speaker 00

  a brand new thing. It was just a bit of a deeper, I guess, experience of it.

• 30:07Steven Bartlett?

  For better or for worse?

• 30:08Speaker 00

  For, um, well, I mean, guess, depending on how you look at the challenge, it was a, for example, the emptiness was just a bit more severe because winning the World Cup was the main goal. So winning the game and the sixth, the other, the grand slam or or getting selected for this or that were huge goals. And the little parts of emptiness afterwards that came um were was a bit less because, one, it wasn't the main goal and two, also. Because it wasn't the main goal, the main goal was still in place, which meant you were therefore still moving towards something.

• 30:47Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  I think because the main goal was so important, but also afterwards, there wasn't that clarity of where I go next. Yeah, that was a bit of a deeper drop into that space of what's this all about?

• 31:00Steven Bartlett?

  And how does that feel in detail that you describe that as a deeper drop?

• 31:04Speaker 00

  Just, just a sense of confusion and sort of bewilderment with the idea that

• 31:11Speaker 00

  there was a promise here. There was a promise, albeit one I've made to myself, but such a deep, such a strong one and a well-defined one that said, it's gonna happen.

• 31:23Speaker 00

  I've worked hard for this. I've done all I was asked. I've done all I asked myself to do. Again, I keep sort of, you know, I can't abide by the idea that, you know, that there is this somehow, this external, I used to use the blame and the, you'd sort of offset that responsibility and hand it over to something on the outside to say, oh, yeah, that's why I'm feeling this way. But now, you know, it all comes from the inside. But even so, that promise felt strong. It felt real. It felt, um, and that you feel a bit sort of cheated, but also confused because

• 31:57Speaker 00

  there is no one to blame. There is nothing to grab. There's nothing tangible that says, you know, that stood there saying, you know, well, you know, I got you there, didn't I? It's like, where now? What now? And then there's also a little bit of that extra confusion is to say, well, what's the point of the next one?

• 32:12Steven Bartlett?

  The promise was that you'd receive some kind of euphoric joy.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:15Steven Bartlett?

  And fulfillment and.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 32:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  It is the Hollywood ending.

• 32:21Speaker 00

  But of course Hollywood films have that privilege of the credits coming up and and leaves you with your imagination and your imagination, it always just, it's not in detail, but you just think, wow, how great for them. But of course, should that camera carry on for even another hour? You get, you get something in there and, and, yeah, that's all it took after the World Cup final. You know, we went to a private party and you start thinking, oh, we'll go there and have a chance to chat and it's gonna be great. And when you get there, it's, oh, these people, you know, this isn't private. Why they're letting, you know, I can't even get here to see, there's no space, you know? It's already in. It's going and.

• 33:02Speaker 00

  But I think, yeah, waking up the next morning is a big one. That night's sleep, you know, leaves you in the cold light of day when it's all, you know, you're looking sort of at the, at the room and the hotel and it's, it's, it's just as is. And it's, it's not shining, you know, said this before a few times when I've spoken, there aren't people waiting outside the door, willing to, you know, hoist you on their shoulders and carry you down to breakfast where you've got your own special table. It just, it is, but it's so powerfully kind of beautiful in that way, in the way that it allows you to, at some point, understand that there's also a really great reason for why you feel that way, because it's just, it's, it's a pointer to

• 33:48Speaker 00

  there's a disconnect here. It's nothing to do with what's going on the outside. It's just, there's a misunderstanding here. And an opportunity, but that opportunity, as you said, how do you move on to the next one?

• 34:02Speaker 00

  It involves some vulnerability because you can't walk in the shoes of the same identity. But heading in that other direction, the identity is the direction you're heading in. You need, you know, a new identity, a more spacious one, a more open one, but that's vulnerability. That's, you know, to, to do that, you have to shed those, those solid lines you've drawn up, which have kept you safe and given you your, your standoutness.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 34:32Speaker 00

  To others. They can see you because you're drawing yourself in solid lines. And you can say, this is who I am. And you can talk about yourself in that way. And it feels like that's purpose and that's, that's kind of meaning and worth. But it's, it's asking you to let that go. And that's humiliation, as we're talking about. It's a humbling journey.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 34:49Speaker 00

  And it's vulnerability. And I wasn't ready for it at that time, definitely not. What also didn't help was the, the game after, that I first played after that for my club was two weeks later. And in that game. I crossed the line on a neck injury. It'd been building for a long, long time over years. And in that game, it properly went. And I spent the next couple of months without being able to move my arm. And then surgery and all this talk about you may never come back. And of course, you've gone from this is what I do. This is who I am to I don't really know what's going on anymore. And now I can't even do what I do. So I can't even be those solid lines. I can't present anymore. Now I'm watching other people do it. So it's an amazing coming together of circumstance to really point you and say, hey,

• 35:34Speaker 00

  what do you think? Shall we have a look at something else? It's like, no. So I was, I was on the exercise bike the day after my neck operation with a neck brace on. My brother came in and saw me, we were living together, saw me and sort of said, what are you doing? And it's the need, I've got to get back to where I was. And this is such a powerful thought is that we want growth. You want progress. You want to advance and to explore and find new things. And yet the way I was going to do that was going back. That's how I was going to find new stuff. I have to get back to who I was and how I was. And yet, deep inside me, what I wanted was, and what I began my journey was, I want to find out what I'm capable of.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  And what I was actually saying in this moment was, I want to go back to what I've had, to where I've been. That was a big, big moment. I just wasn't quite ready to listen to it. And as soon as you do get back, which I did for a little bit before getting injured again and again and again, which was the stress of all that, that need and obsession. It's enough. Because just enough of the old habits and the triggers come in with people around you saying, oh, you're doing great. So good to have you back in it.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  I'm back. But of course, it just, it's just enough to hold you off making that.

• 36:51Speaker 00

  That step in the other direction. And yeah, that came but later on.

• 36:55Steven Bartlett?

  I resonate so much with that. And my, my moment of, I guess, which is analogous to your moment of being injured and being trying to be back on the bike was when I resigned from my company. I kind of looked at it and fell into the belief that if I spend the rest of my life living out these labels that I've earned through my accomplishments, social media CEO, or like entrepreneur or whatever, I would likely end up abandoning my true self and probably end up in like some kind of midlife crisis. So at that point, as I write about my book, my objective became, if I had no labels, who would, who would I be? And trying to really live a life free from my confining identity and be free to be the full expression of myself is the journey I find myself in now.

• 37:35Steven Bartlett?

  Is that what you mean when you say you were trying to get to the point of understanding all you can be? Is that what you're describing there?

• 37:45Speaker 00

  I, I think what comes to mind when you're saying that for me was, and it's also another way of looking at the identity thing I think you're speaking about is that.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  The more I've released those boundaries of identity, the more creative I've become. And there's nothing more creative than being in that zone, as I was saying, when those boundaries are gone, you're so creative. That you suddenly see things and you put, you join dots together in ways that you can't imagine they could ever have been. And yet it's so easy, it's so effortless. Creativity is an, is an effortless

• 38:20Speaker 00

  kind of capacity that we have. It's not one that needs trying to be involved. When you're becoming creative, you don't try to be creative. That's the whole point of not being creative is you allow and you explore and what comes out is surely more of what's really who we are. And I think the thing for me and that was that as a child, I had that, I had that creative ability. And what I did was I embraced and I celebrated. My creativity, as I got older, what I did was I held on to my creation. And that was another way of saying identity. So as I began to attach myself to what it was I was creating, instead of exploring the creativity and the process, there I form the identity.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  Because it was, the identity is, look at what I create. You can't have an identity as a creator, because then it's still, look at what I create, I'm a creator. But to have no identity, I think, in that respect, to be nothing on the inside, as they say, is to be everything on the outside. Allows you to to create, and therefore such a real interesting moniker, or marker rather for me is, how creative do I feel right now? And to set the environmental conditions internally for creativity, effortlessness, relaxation,

• 39:44Speaker 00

  excitement, passion, and ultimately, on the spiritual level, worthiness. And I think that, you know, when I say about, for me, that's been where it's changed, because you you can't be fully creative and insist upon the creation, how it's going to turn out. And needing that guarantee, that's control. I'm going to be so creative, as long as it turns out like this. So you're not going to allow it to go anywhere new, you're not creating anything. You're almost, you've got a blueprint, you're organizing. And I didn't, after a while, I think, I realized I didn't want to organize and manage my talent. I wanted to celebrate it, and like you said, be all you can be, I want to see where it can go.

• 40:29Speaker 00

  I want to, and all I can be means going beyond identity. The best I can be means within my identity. The best ever is within a very small identity. You want to be the best ever. That's a very small identity.

• 40:43Steven Bartlett?

  And you went through those three phases, right? You write about the first phase was you wanted to be the best ever. Then you wanted to be the second one was you.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  Best I can be.

• 40:50Steven Bartlett?

  The best you can be. And the third is you want to be, which is where you find yourself now, all you can be.

• 40:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, it just determines the strength of the idea or opinion behind it. I want to be the best ever is a very strong idea.

• 41:00Steven Bartlett?

  This is zero sum game, right?

• 41:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And that's hugely massive comparison, massive competition, massive measuring up, massive dependence upon other people's views. Yeah. How do you know you're the best ever? Because someone says I do. Right, I'm going to work on you. I'm not going to work on myself. I'm going to work on your opinion. The second one, the best I can be is is an idea still. What's my best? Well, I was good then, so it needs to be that, but a bit more. Okay, it's still a strong idea. You're still limiting yourself. All I can be is looking at the eye.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  Not looking at the rugby player. Yeah, because the best I can be is, okay, I'm going to be the best father, I'm going to be the best. And these are all great pursuits, but they still don't match up to what about just this being? How, how, how much can I be in terms of how can I explore my being? The best I can be still just shifts over to doing. The best ever is all about doing. It's all about physicality. Best I can be, a bit less. All I can be drops the physical and that's where creativity comes in. You know, being creative physically means moving stuff around. Being creative, which is effort, but being really creative means you can sit and just be.

• 42:16Speaker 00

  And that's where I think all the, all the opportunity is.

• 42:19Steven Bartlett?

  There'll be people listening to this that are, you know, they left university, they went to school and now they're a lawyer. And they've been a lawyer for 15 years, or they might be, I don't know, a dentist. Now they've been a dentist for 20 years. And a lot of the time when I speak to these people, there's this other voice inside them that's been suppressed over time, which is probably all they can be. And they've got really consumed in this identity, which they're like, parents wanted them to adopt of being a doctor or a lawyer, whatever it might be. It, when I speak to these people, they are seemingly trapped by something. And that, that force that's trapping them seems to be so much stronger than the other voice, which is, which they sometimes can even point to as being a more fulfilling life, which is, I guess, all they can be. They wanna go and be an artist.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:03Steven Bartlett?

  They speak to me before my show, they show me their Instagram and they're the most unbelievable artist I've ever seen in my life. And they, their face lights up when they talk about that thing. But when I ask them what they do, they say, yeah, I work in the city, I work in finance for like KPMG or something. And you can see the dread in their face.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 43:17Steven Bartlett?

  How does someone start the journey? And I think you alluded to vulnerability there, but how does someone start the journey of going from that place of, you know, confinement and identity and I am this thing that I've earned through my achievements to being all I can be in a practical way? What's, how does that journey begin?

• 43:33Speaker 00

  I think that voice, that inner calling, as you just said, is, is passion and excitement versus the duty and the need and the fulfilling the, the roles, if you like, of society. And I think therefore, for me, the way that works is that you, you add to the passion and excitement

• 43:58Speaker 00

  constantly and allow that to look after your deepest intention, which is always, I want to spend, I think, all my time fully present, which means doing what I love doing, being who I feel like I'm meant to be, as much as that will keep evolving and changing. So therefore it comes down to following your highest passion and excitement in every moment. And people might argue straight away, well, how can I do that if I've got to be at work at seven in the morning and I've, I've got to do this and I've got to go and traipse across town to get here. You say, yes, but within the boundaries of what you have to do, what's your highest excitement? Follow that. So, you know, I've got to drive across

• 44:39Speaker 00

  here and it's going to take me two hours and, but then when you're in the car, tune into what's my highest passion and excitement. I love this podcast. Okay, go. That's it. I really wanna listen to, I've got that, my hands free. I'm gonna phone so and so because I just thought of them and I really wanna chat to them. Follow that intuitive, instinctive, impulsive side that comes from what you want.

• 45:02Speaker 00

  And when that gains momentum, I think the way it works is that

• 45:10Speaker 00

  the universe responds by providing more and more opportunities to do more and more of what you like, so that your highest and passion excitement, the environment allows for you to really do more and more of what you really love doing. But you've got to start the ball rolling by saying, right, within this moment right now, how can I, what's my highest passion excitement? How can I be? How can I bring more of me into this as opposed to allow this to take away more of me? And I think that is a journey that just looks after itself, you know? It's on a physical level, it's the do what you, the little things you can do, set goals and allow them to, you know, what you focus on what you can do and allow it to expand and, and

• 45:55Speaker 00

  grow into the most amazing things. It's the same way of just doing that on an internal level is just follow your highs. It might be physical, it might just be things I love thinking about. It's it even if it comes down to, to being, you know, you're, you're stuck in a lift. You're kind of like, and it's a tiny lift and you're going to be there for maybe for a while. Okay, but people talk about going to a happy place. But that's what's my highest passion excitement. Oh, what I love to be doing now, paint it, picture it, think of it, dream it, feel it. All those kinds of things, all these things are amazing things to be doing. And if you're following your highest passion, if you're enjoying and embracing this moment, I spoke to someone recently who was saying that, you know, to know you're on track for your future manifestations of your dreams,

• 46:41Speaker 00

  the, the indicator is often how deeply are you embracing and enjoying this moment now? And once you find yourself loving this moment, it's amazing how much things just fall into place for you. And I think that's the key is to, is to be able to say, whatever it is, whatever you can do,

• 46:59Speaker 00

  do it and bring it to this. And I think that voice that says, oh, I can't do this. I can't do that. It's not possible. I shouldn't do this or it's not right is another way of saying I, I can't be me.

• 47:14Steven Bartlett?

  It's so interesting because when you were saying that, I was thinking about the former version of myself at 18, living in Manchester and Moss Side where, you know, I was very, I had nothing and I was shoplifting, as I've talked about a million times, food to feed myself. But in that moment, I was, although I was working in call centres at night shifts, I was so unbelievably excited by life because I was also designing my website, designing my future business in my lunchtime, in my breaks of that call centre. And I've said this for years and I don't think people believed me, but I've said, I was as happy then as I am now. That kid was so optimistic and so happy, even though he was, he had no money and he was working night shifts in a call centre. And it sounds so privileged and like,

• 47:57Steven Bartlett?

  obviously because of money now, whatever. But it resonated with so much of your saying then. I think it's because of what you were saying then was I was still pursuing my highest passion, despite the fact that I was working in this call centre. I was still occupying all of my time and my thoughts that I could with that future. And that's what I believe manifested me being here because I could have made the decision that this was my destination and my forever. And I'd probably still be there now in Moss Side.

• 48:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I definitely agree. The idea about following your highest passion, there is a passion, I think, deep down is for expressing who you are. And there's no doubt for me that rugby, for that period of my life, was what I was meant to do. That's how I was supposed to play out. That was, that was what I was supposed to be at that time.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  But then your passion changes slightly. And to be able to leave the rugby and follow that passion, often I think people say, you know, it's really difficult to find my next passion. But I think having that, that kind of ability to leave behind what's been is what allows passion for what can be. And I think, like we were saying before about wanting to finish your rugby and then you think, I'll go straight into coaching because it's close enough and people will still know me. And I still, but actually to have that period of. Not just after an end of a career, but daily to have that quiet period every day where

• 49:29Speaker 00

  you just sit, not with, not with ideas, I'm going to think about this, or I need to plan this, or I need to work out what my passion is, but just sit and just disconnect from that pull of the external, eyes closed and just watch. But of course, straight away comes in is, yeah, am I doing this right? What should be happening? Should I be feeling something? I haven't had any ideas. It's been two weeks and, but just do it. Just do it in, in the name of moving to your potential. Because we were so willing to, to give to our limits. Look at how many years we spend suffering and telling ourselves certain things that have come from old ideas that no longer serve us. We're willing to give all our time to those, but people are still like, it's too hard to find 10 minutes to sit on an evening.

• 50:13Speaker 00

  What am I going to do? When actually, you know, you have that moment where you're sat watching something on TV and it's not really interesting and you're kind of like, that's time there. But once that ball gets rolling, when your passion centers around something and everything comes out of that same passion, so it's all aligned, it's all kind of focused energy. Hmm. That's going to manifest. There's no doubt. You know, like, I'm sure at some level, there's no way you get to where you are now without there being that drive. Now, I had that in the rugby and a lot of it was, was sort of conflict and it stressed the hell out of me, but it was so damn strong that it had to win. Hmm.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  Because I wouldn't let it not win. I just didn't do it in a way that was enjoyable. Same. And now I think when you release the conflict, you get even more flow. You get an effortless version of what I've done through efforting. Hmm. I've efforted heavily. Hmm. Yeah, I, I heard that word recently. I really like it. I much prefer it than tried or, or given so much, but I've really made it. A sort of an effort version of how to get to the top. And what that means is when I look back, it's like, how was it? I never smelt the roses. That's what most people say, yeah, because there's another way to do it. And maybe that's how this has come out for you versus the first. I don't know, you know, like these projects for me, the next things I'm doing seem to just kind of, oh, there it is. That's interesting. Whereas before it was, ah, God, I've saw it.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  Don't get out of there. Don't you dare, whatever it is. I think that just comes from at some point just saying, well, okay, this is what I've got. Acceptance. And then what do I want to do right now? What's my next step responsibility? And you can't get to that passion without the acceptance. And the acceptance is this is what I've got. This is where I'm meant to be. This is how things are. And once I come to ease with that, then suddenly there is that, oh, I can start to feel what it is I want to do next.

• 52:12Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 52:13Speaker 00

  But while there's that resistance to this, it shouldn't be this way. And should I be doing this or I'm elsewhere, future, past? Passion, excitement are kind of like, look, whilst you're trying to survive, we're not relevant to you. You know, someone in survival isn't really interested in passion, excitement. And I was in survival most of my career, hence why I keep saying about my career, you know, the passion and excitement died away. Not because I lost, I fell out of love with rugby at all, not at all. Just purely that I was in survival mode more and more and more. And the more I went into it, the less relevant creativity, growth, love, connection with teammates, excitement, passion, joy. It's just not relevant to that.

• 52:50Steven Bartlett?

  You nailed it when you described me as well with that, when you said, um, the drive that I had that was really strong was actually upon reflection, just deep insecurity.

• 52:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's still a big drive though.

• 52:59Steven Bartlett?

  It's still a big driver, hard to shake. When you think about winning the World Cup and you said that was the goal, was that really your, your goal?

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's, I think having, like you said, the insecurity is often for me, just comes down to the opposite of trust. It's distrust in yourself or whatever. But when there's a different trust about it, that acceptance I was speaking about is all encompassing. That it, it, when you accept now, it, it is a full acceptance of all that's been. Now is, is, you know, if you accept this, then everything from a physical perspective that's brought to here also sort of is accepted. And therefore.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  For me, it was my goal because deep down, my inner calling was I want to be free. I want to be happy and I I want this. And so according to the energy I was in, these were the cooperative components. Win a World Cup. Why? So you can see that that's not quite where you need to be going. All right, have some injuries. Why? So you can go through your own learning at the speed that you're choosing. You can't go any faster than you're ready for and you can't go any slower. It it is simply as it is. And as you explore, I think it kind of as you start to expand, the expansion takes place, I think, quicker. Once you get going, I think more revelations come and it kind of opens up harder or faster.

• 54:23Speaker 00

  But the the point for me being that that trust is just, it may have taken forty years to get to this point from a but from an experiential level. I don't feel forty years has gone into this. It's been instantaneous because it's just memory. It's not forty years. So I kind of love the idea of people confusing the past with memory. When it's memory and you start to realize it's memory and then you start to realize that you have a a say in the emotional involvement in that memory, you can release it from those memories, that you can play with your past. Whereas people have a fixed idea of past and yet they want a different future.

• 55:09Speaker 00

  It's like like a railroad track, you know, that that has a certain piece that's slightly curved. And the train is going along and reaches back from the previous piece and sticks in front. Because these are my understandings about how life is. This is how it's going to be. And so you end up just going round and round and round in circles. Instead of the classic cycle breaker, which is that random different piece. And sometimes it's a big shock or a trauma for people, the way you kind of get a piece that's like completely different direction. Suddenly you head off into the unknown and people have those amazing experiences. But sometimes it's just a piece which is slightly less curved. And that's what those moments were for me, you know, that different understanding of like, hold on, I thought there was going to be joy here. I was convinced there isn't.

• 55:50Speaker 00

  And suddenly that cycle breaking, you're thinking just enough to change the piece of it and you had here. And you widen your circle and eventually you start to be in control a little bit more of how you're going to see each event. So you can start to best you can shape those pieces to send you into the unknown. Which is where I didn't want to go before, you know, that's the, the, the unknown was the threat, the unknown was the, was the potential slip up we're talking about was that kind of shady space where you're not in control anymore. Whereas now the unknown is like, well, if you want potential, you want to see what life is, it's unknown. And the more unknown you see yourself, the more you align with life, less ideas I have, the more unknown I am, the more I align with life, the more that I start to, to get that.

• 56:34Speaker 00

  That's, I think that more instantaneous response we're talking about, instead of it taking forty years. You know, for me, it's gone over that forty years, it's been sort of expanding out, but over the last fifteen, it's been quicker over the last five, much quicker and over the last one, much, much quicker.

• 56:55Steven Bartlett?

  This, the vulnerability is an interesting word because it assumes it makes you feel a certain way. But this, this truth and this openness that you speak, you, you, in, which is kind of marks the way you speak now, this kind of, I'm willing to tell you all about myself in terms of how I feel and what I'm thinking. And I'm willing, again, this is an assumption, I don't care as much about what you think of me based on what I'm sharing now, whether it's about your mental health or about how you're feeling, which again are things that men don't typically do, especially, you know, leaders in sport, right? What impact has stepping into your truth and being open and, and like free from caring too much about what others might think of you because you're so open about your mental health and other things. What impact has that had on your life?

• 57:41Speaker 00

  I think it's the openness is is is not um a conscious decision. I'm not coming in saying I'm now going to be so open about it, the same way that I might have been unconsciously closed before. You know, still kind of not speaking about stuff, not because I'm sitting there thinking I'm not talking about this, but because that feeling says this is where I want to stay within the boundaries of this on the conversation. And now the boundaries are wider, not because it's not now a narrow boundary of all I ever talk about is how my suffering is kind of like. But you talk about, I guess, what's relevant to the moment, to the conversation. And it's inspired rather than um pre-planned.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  I, like I said to you before, I think I used to be a big one for preparation.

• 58:31Speaker 00

  So coming into this, you know, I dread to think what I'd have been like when I was twenty one, but I'd I'd have been, you know, out there with with my sort of agent or with my my dad or my mum or something and been waiting to come in and be like, yeah, and they'd be like, it's gonna go fine, don't worry, it's gonna go fine. You're like, yeah, it is. Just make sure you, I'm gonna talk about that and and I might talk about that story if you ask me about that. It's planned on the basis of I'm trying to achieve an outcome from this. But when it become, which again is that whole kind of like, what I create, what I actually create defines who I am. So what I'm going to create from this will define who I am. So I need to make sure it's how I want it to be. All based on this idea of who I am, but without the idea.

• 59:14Speaker 00

  I think I speak according to the situation, not according to my identity. And I listen according to what's maybe more of what's really being meant than what's being said. And again, it it's this.

• 59:32Speaker 00

  I guess it's this different, more, less solid idea of who you are that just suddenly opens up the understanding of what really listening is and being there is. I mean, being there for someone is such an amazing phrase when you really look at it. To be there for someone, it means fully being.

• 59:51Speaker 00

  Now, if you, people are saying, but how, how, what's the best thing to do if someone's struggling is like, well, just be there for them. Okay. But you mean like just physically stand there and be loving and but if all of this is an effort, it's designed to get an outcome. But if to get an outcome for someone else, you must have to know what's right for them.

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  And now you're deciding and limiting them. But if you want to be all you can be, you can allow others to be all they can be. You can allow a situation to be all it can be. And I think that kind of for me has been, you know, the, the, one of the biggest openings for us. And an example I'd say was I spoke to a young football player a while back, maybe sort of fifteen, sixteen years old. And someone had said, would you mind just having a chat?

• 1:00:40Speaker 00

  And I said, yeah, of course, I'd love to, you know, you get that inspirational sort of feel immediately that, yeah, this is one of those cooperative manifested moments. If there's something that I've, I've called for, and this has been offered, and I think I'm going to explore this, you know, because it feels right that it's in my path. And we had a chat and midway through the chat, it came to me in quite a sort of emotionally sort of, I guess, intense way. I suddenly realized that I wasn't talking to this person as if I was forty, they were fifteen, as if they were a young soccer player, I was an ex rugby player. I suddenly realized that I was exchanging on a level here where it

• 1:01:25Speaker 00

  was energy form to energy form, not age relevant at all, not even defined, simply that I was performing a role of serving and being served at the same time, according to allowing and letting it be. Whereas before it would have been, okay, right, before the call, you kind of put on your mentor shirt, you know, going to be a mentor now and, you know. But a talk like this and give it the whole kind of, yeah, well, I guess if you're gonna play sport, you know, all this kind of stuff. But instead you phone up and suddenly I realised I'd lost that idea of the difference between people. And people talk about it from, you know, age, gender, all these kind of things, you know, religion, race, everything.

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  And you sort of think, we're all trying to do that by listening to the right thing to do and what people should say and how you should speak. But it's all the answers are in your own journey to releasing all your sort of self discriminations and judgements. But then it just becomes so easy and obvious, but so joyful and such a a true exchange. According to what's really being asked for, rather than two people playing a game on the surface of playing our roles and seeing what we can get from each other. It's two people sharing what's really being asked for.

• 1:02:43Speaker 00

  And I I sort of feel like, if you like, for me, from a that perspective, that's the first time I've I've kind of understood what it is to really care for someone. It's to completely let go of your own ideas of them. And in order to do that, you have to let go of yours about you. And I think that's the selfless side of it. It's funny, that expression, you know, it's selfless, you remove yourself and you can be selfless. And just being able to sit there and listen and be fascinated by someone.

• 1:03:15Speaker 00

  Has been a really, I think, a big, a big moment in that. And that that kind of, yeah, it's been a, that's been a nice change. That moment for me was one where I suddenly realised, you know, that I've been playing a game for so long, according to, again, to that identity. What I need from this, how it's gonna look, you know, I I'm using people. I don't mean necessarily on on that whole kind of exploitative, you know, I guess in a way it is. But you're kind of using them to get them to feel a certain way about you. You're using them to to say what you need them to say for you, to fill that space. And once that goes. Relationships, I think, take on a whole new level.

• 1:03:51Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting. You're essentially using them to confirm the the identity.

• 1:03:56Speaker 00

  To fill the hole.

• 1:03:56Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, making me feel like I'm your mentor.

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 1:04:00Steven Bartlett?

  Confirm, yeah.

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I, you know, I need, at the end of it, I need you, I need that kind of like, thanks so much for your time. Yeah, I can't believe you're doing this. And I need that backup call that comes when the person that introduces you says, oh, they're over the moon. They're so tough. You spoke to you've changed your life forever. You need that because that's what I'm, yeah, because without that, am I doing a good job? But once that goes, it's to be like, but I'm doing what I was supposed to be doing.

• 1:04:25Steven Bartlett?

  When I, when I look over your story, one of the the threads that goes through it, even up until today, because I I I read that you were thinking of or in the process of starting the mental health foundation is the story of mental health, something that's become a greater discussed topic in our generation, specifically around, because there's a lot of men that are arriving at the unfortunate decision that the only way out is to to end their lives. And it's the now the big, big, biggest single killer of men under the age of forty five in in our country. Your mental health journey, twists and turns, it seems. I remember vividly reading that you you you're in your hotel room and you're playing days, looking at the TV and it's basically just lights because your head is overthinking at an unbelievable rate. And it sounds, it sounds somewhat, and I'm not familiar with the the medical definition of a panic attack or anxiety, but it sounds somewhat like that.

• 1:05:10Steven Bartlett?

  Have you ever experienced depression in your life, a a about a period where, and again, I'm, I'm not a doctor, but where you feel a sustained low and that would be clinically described as depression?

• 1:05:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, they'll always go together undoubtedly. Yeah, because for me they do. Because you have that sense of panic and anxiety,

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  which for me has always been around, sort of finding these these insurmountable issues throughout my life, what seems to be the insurmountable, which is basically saying, according to how I've positioned my view of life, this is now insurmountable. According to my belief system, this means this is an issue and we can't pass each other. And the fear then kicks in, the lack of control, the the panic kicks in, which again, that hysterical nature of it, you know, it tells me that it's, you know, it's not rational to the to the moment, you know, they talk about, there's no threat here, but if I'm having that threat, I know it's, it's coming from something deeper. But the fact that it's insurmountable, the fact, or it appears so.

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  And the fact that before I wouldn't have seen changing your energy, otherwise known as changing your identity, I guess in a way, or removing your identity, I wouldn't have seen that as an opportunity. So therefore you're stuck in that insurmountable space. And that's where the depression kicks in. What's the point? What's the point? This is me now. I can't live with, I can't live without this. I'm stuck. The needle is right in the middle. And every time I try and move it one way to get some clarity, once it goes that way, I panic because it has to come back. I don't want it to go that way. So I bring it to the middle. And then I try and work it the other way. And it's like, I don't want it to go that way. And it's this classic two

• 1:07:00Speaker 00

  voices you mentioned, which is this call for happiness and this call for joy and and freedom and and all that, the stuff which just blossoms out over and over again in ways that beyond belief. But another voice that says, I don't want that.

• 1:07:18Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:19Speaker 00

  I want it so much and I don't want it at the same time. And the don't want it voices, the identity, this is who I am, I think I am, and I want to save this whilst having that. Those are the two voices. And when you're locked into that, I want to save this, I want that becomes I can never have it.

• 1:07:38Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:40Speaker 00

  This is all I've got. And right now, if this is me, you know, what's the point? But understanding for me that those two, it's those two voices that I'm working with, not external truths, you know, external situations and and they're not, this is the way the world is. And unfortunately, therefore, this is the way is that's the voice that comes from old ideas. And understanding you're working with old ideas and old ideas represent that energy state or shape it, that when you start to realize, well, hold on, on an energy level, if I just trust, I keep working with my energy, and I trust as long as it takes, I'm going to work on it. That's it. Without this idea that, you know, this idea

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  of how and when it should sort itself out. Well, you know, I heard that person talking about getting some revelations and I haven't had any yet, but I should have any some after two weeks. Oh, it hasn't been, I'm not getting any, I can't even, you know, it's like, no, just leave it open ended. And, you know, if people go to the gym.

• 1:08:43Speaker 00

  Sometimes when they don't really want to, it's kind of like, well, why not just sit quietly for 10 minutes when you don't really want to, but just do it anyway. Just do it and just say, okay, I'll see. It's a bit like the, the, the looking in the mirror when you go into the gym, you know, over day after day, you don't see it. Someone else says, hi, yeah, what's happening there? You kind of like, I've been going to the gym. It's like, all right, I haven't really seen it. It's the same as sitting quietly. Feels like nothing's happening, but it is.

• 1:09:10Steven Bartlett?

  Patrice Evra sat here, Manchester United football legend, left back. And he said that one of the questions that really changed his life was one day when his girlfriend turned to him and said, Patrice, are you happy? And when he was asked that question, and I remember when I was asked that question, because my girlfriend at the time asked me, when I was driving home in my car back to my house after work, and she turned to me and said, are you happy? And it was, it made me feel uncomfortable. And Patrice described a similar thing, like he kind of snapped back at her, of course I'm happy. But then she persisted. And this kind of was a really, a real turning point in his life, where he eventually admitted to, to being molested when he was in school, something he'd never told anybody and had never confronted. And that set him off on

• 1:09:53Steven Bartlett?

  the journey of understanding himself in truth and finding a way to not be this tough guy anymore, and to be compassionate and loving and to be all he could be, right? Are you happy?

• 1:10:05Speaker 00

  It's a, I was just thinking, I must you were, I presumed you were gonna ask that question.

• 1:10:10Steven Bartlett?

  Took the long way around that.

• 1:10:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I think, I think happiness, when you're asked it that way, is, is a bit of a destination.

• 1:10:22Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. Yes or no, isn't it?

• 1:10:23Speaker 00

  It's like a yes or no. It's kind of like, you know what?

• 1:10:27Speaker 00

  I like to see it maybe in terms of, am I grateful to be alive? And I think, you know, am I full of gratitude is my way of looking at it. Am I, am I in touch with that, that sense of, of just being?

• 1:10:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, so

• 1:10:53Speaker 00

  so pleased that I'm I'm having this opportunity of life. And yeah, definitely. And I wonder sometimes, even in my darkest moments, if you kind of go, you know, this is part of that journey as well. And in a way, when I look back, it's more so much more difficult at the time. I mean, almost impossible. When I look back, am I pleased and grateful for that? It's like, yes, I am, because it always turns out that it's the answer to a deeper connection. And I feel like, yes, am I happy? I'm grateful to be alive and I don't want to change a thing. And I think that's kind of for me, would I change anything? I don't want, and I think that's the sign, you know.

• 1:11:37Speaker 00

  I feel like, as was underneath so much of the the rugby stuff, the achievement stuff, the savior stuff, the warrior stuff, the martyr stuff. It was always a case of I'm not enough, so I need to earn it from other people, from outcomes, from life, whatever. And and I think that question is, are you happy is like, do you realize, you know, that you're enough? Do you feel that you're worthy and deserving of being here? And I think that's the connection to to everything. And I think maybe that's the answer. All this energy change stuff we're talking about or or old ideas, or it really comes down to recognizing that, you know,

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  are you are you aware of just how worthy you are? That this whole universe is is answering to you with these experiences? You know, the whatever's happened this morning and whatever's happened on my journey here and meeting you, this has all been put in my path for me.

• 1:12:43Speaker 00

  The same way it is for everyone. It's like, I mean, I heard another expression a while back saying that we're so important with the, without you, the universe couldn't be all that it could be. It would just be some of what it could be and therefore it couldn't exist. That's how important we all are. We're here because we're supposed to be here. And what's great is that, you know, that finding out your, your passion, your, your, your joy and your true meaning is, is not something you need to worry about, just something you need to allow out. And know that all these events are pointing you, I think, pointing us all towards all we can be. If we're willing to listen, but when we answer them, try and stop them, we're basically saying,

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  no, no, I've found who I'm supposed to be and therefore I don't need this. But when I think we're sort of willing to, to, to look at what we've been given and say, well, I must need this. And maybe there's something asking for this deeper that knows way more than I do. So, you know, I'll step out the way for a bit and, and have a good old listen.

• 1:13:48Steven Bartlett?

  Shelley, your wife?

• 1:13:51Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:13:52Steven Bartlett?

  What role has she played and just having a partner through this, this journey? What role has that played in you discovering and going on the journey of becoming all you can be?

• 1:14:05Speaker 00

  I think it must be the same. I don't know for, for all people. I did hear Eckhart Tolle say that relationships were the spiritual work for the West. You know, it's for the East, I don't know what the case is now, but yeah, maybe it used to be sitting on hillsides, but people sort of think, oh, I can't, I can't do that because I've got my responsibilities. But it's like, this is the work. Relationships are massive like that. And, you know, she's perfect in, in every way because she's perfect as she is. But also because she's, she's exactly what I need. And that means when I get challenged, I'm kind of like, this is what I need.

• 1:14:48Speaker 00

  And it's, yeah, like I said, it's, it's when someone sort of provides that opportunity for you to, to sort of.

• 1:14:59Speaker 00

  Be more of you on every level. I think that's that's kind of gold dust. And therefore I think, you know, I turn up and I don't expect or or think she should be or any certain way. Um, I need her to be exactly as she wants to be and is. Because it's right for me and hopefully I'm being the same for her. But um, it's funny how we both kind of growing in our own ways, in our own directions, I think because of each other. And now, you know, we've got someone else on that journey with us in our little world and and exactly the same relationship. I think the best thing is that both of us is neither of us are trying to lead a change in the other. We're both trying to sort of

• 1:15:43Speaker 00

  uncover more about ourselves and that's doing everything in the work and the relationship. As I said before, you know, working on someone else really doesn't work for anyone. Working on yourself tends to work for everyone.

• 1:15:55Steven Bartlett?

  And I know you have a uh, it's like a kombucha style drink, right?

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:59Steven Bartlett?

  What do they call those? They call them?

• 1:16:01Speaker 00

  So it's a living drink.

• 1:16:02Steven Bartlett?

  A living drink.

• 1:16:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, fermented. It's a probiotic.

• 1:16:05Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing. What's it called?

• 1:16:06Speaker 00

  It's number one living, it's called.

• 1:16:08Steven Bartlett?

  Number one living.

• 1:16:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's uh, yeah, it's a kombucha drink. We've got water keffirs, which are more fermented drinks. We've got all kinds of stuff on the on the on the market around.

• 1:16:18Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I I was curious about that because I'd seen this shift in your perspective of diet and nutrition throughout your life. And I wondered if there was any advice for for me based on the journey you've been on. Again, this is maybe a bit selfish of me to ask, but I know there's other people who would think it because again, when I was a young, I guess I still am a young man, but I was very much just smashing pro, well, I still am smashing protein shakes to try and build my muscles. And I'm really focusing on trying to have like a really good looking body.

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Steven Bartlett?

  Whereas what you've said is that health is much more important. And when I read that, that you'd made this distinction between health and fitness, I kind of looked at it and I thought to myself, what does he mean? Because I thought kind of health and fitness was almost a similar thing.

• 1:16:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think for a start, my brother's a fitness conditioner. We played together professionally up in the north and then, um, yeah, his, his side has always been the, the fitness conditioning side. So we have a really close relationship on that and he's exploring loads of this stuff. My wife was trained to become nutritionist. Um, so she was exploring all kinds of things in the, the natural sort of healing side of, of nutrition, but also in, in nutrition as a whole. And I was looking massively into the mental, emotional side of it. So we all kind of crossed paths, my wife and I especially on kombucha, uh, and different cafes. We, we started making them at home. We were putting, you know, going Blackberry picking, putting them in a real kind of shift compared to being in a changing room and, and unwrapping these

• 1:17:40Speaker 00

  kind of foil covered laboratory based, you know, bars have been constructed and, and I think that was the difference for me is that I spent my life being very fit, but not really that healthy. And fitness is an interesting one. I think everyone kind of realizes this to a degree is that when aspirationally you, you really push yourself down a specific route physically to adapt, to be able to do a certain thing very, very sort of fully, you, you kind of, you, you distance yourself slightly from the whole, if you will. It's a bit like sort of a mountain as you climb top more and more to the mountain, it gets a bit more isolated

• 1:18:25Speaker 00

  up there. And I think health is about what fitness can come out of. Unless you look after health, it's dangerous. It's a dangerous balance, I think, to take, you know, you have to look after health and then explore what your fitness can be rather than go after fitness thinking it's going to lead to health. It, it doesn't, you know, the, I work on this with my brother as well and in the, um, in the stuff we, we do with regard to the foundation, we, we speak about stuff and one of the, the areas we talk about is life fitness, which is another way of talking about health, which is about that.

• 1:19:00Speaker 00

  Effortless flowing capacity to be so graceful in what you need to do every day. And not, you know, talking about that aspirational side, you might see, look, I can bench press this and I can lift this. Look at the state of me. Look, I've got no body fat and this, but it's kind of like, okay, let's see you get in and out of your car. You're like, okay, now what we're talking about here is a life fitness, which has some balance in it. Now, don't get me wrong. I was one of those guys that was rugby wise, I couldn't bend down. The idea that I would sort of have to look under the sofa for something, I'd be like, nah, I'm gonna have to lie flat. It took me about three minutes to get down and five to get back up. But there's a real grace to that balance.

• 1:19:43Speaker 00

  And if, and you know, you talk about strong men and, and maybe a story of the past, but where strong men were told, if you carry on like this, you know, this effort to become the world's strongest man, your life expectancy is probably not going to be much more than forty five. And people are, yeah, okay, I'll take that. Because of the, the, the ambition, the drive behind what's behind that, which is absolutely up to absolutely everyone. But for me, having finished rugby, I, I think I understood just how far I'd ventured from health. And, and the living drink side with the number one living stuff we do is, is around the connected nature of, yeah, we're more bacteria than we are cells.

• 1:20:24Speaker 00

  And yet, the, the, yeah, we also live in a world where there's a great deal of sterility at the moment. So bacteria are kind of disappearing. We're not getting outside so much, digging our hands in the dirt. On top of that, as antibiotics have found their way into all kinds of different foods. And so, you know, we're finding ourselves short of these things. And what they're finding out is that bacteria has a role in connecting the body in ways we don't even know. It's that incredible. And we're made of mostly of it. And the, the balance between all these kind of bacteria and even viruses and all kinds of things that are going on us is imperative to our intelligence and how we operate. So that's been effort behind that, but also trying to help us shift back towards health so that we have this kind of.

• 1:21:09Speaker 00

  Genius way of living our life. So that we can involve ourselves fully in every moment, rather than have that kind of, oh, I've got to do that. But it's fine because I'll go into the gym after, but you know, washing the dishes is a good one. I use as a metaphor, a, a, a, an idea for, I once got asked by a triathlete, triathlete.

• 1:21:32Speaker 00

  Um, about, I was speaking to triathlete and I said, you know, but you love doing your triathlon, but you don't like washing the dishes. But what's the deal with when you wash the dishes? What are you trying to do?

• 1:21:43Speaker 00

  I'm just trying to wash the dishes. Or what are you trying to do when you're doing triathlon? Well, I'm sort of, I've got a goal and I'm working, moving my body to get through that, to achieve a certain goal. What are you doing when you're washing the dishes? Well, there's a goal and I'm working my body through it to get to a goal. It's the same thing. But there's an understanding that this I like and this I don't. This I'm willing to do, this I'm unwilling to do. This I'm willing to be joyful about and this, therefore I've decided already is not. But to bring that kind of whole engagement to every moment is health. When you have certain things which are great and others which aren't, that involvement and out involvement or lack of involvement is, is.

• 1:22:25Speaker 00

  For me is what fitness was, you know, as a rugby player, training brilliantly, brilliant gym, matches, great. Going for walks, yeah, not bad. Sitting around, sitting quietly, no chance. You know, getting in and out of the car, like I said, terrible. No way, you know, all these kind of things. And yet people say, I wish I'd made more of my life, wish I'd enjoyed every moment. But that starts with health, health of physical, mental, emotional. And exploring that and that first of all comes with, you know, exploring the body and you, you know, the classic would be.

• 1:23:01Speaker 00

  We sit now, maybe sometimes for so long that we become very good at sitting. Aspirationally, we've become great sitters, the same way we've become great rugby players or whatever it is. So our bodies are starting to shape towards that and they're forgetting everything we knew before. And now you find sometimes the best feeling you can get is by just stretching your arms back and going, oh, that feels nice. I'd forgotten how nice that was.

• 1:23:27Steven Bartlett?

  Like yoga.

• 1:23:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. The danger is, is that we end up in a few years where we've lost it. And it's to remind yourself that is health. Whereas if you're doing one thing the whole time, without reminding yourself of everything you can do, everything, as we're speaking about, identity wise, you become so obsessed with being this kind of person, you forget that you're everything. Yeah, but I'm being this something. Yeah, but you've got to keep reminding yourself that you're everything. Otherwise, you're going to lose your grounding and you're going to get lost in the small and lose, yeah, you're going to get lost in the wave and you're going to lose sort of your, your, your homeliness in the deep sea, where it's all peace and you're, you're every wave. But as it is, you know, we're in that

• 1:24:11Speaker 00

  individual thing and, and health and fitness is part of that movement. And health is about what you eat, what you drink, how you eat, how you drink, how you breathe, how you move, sleep, recovery, restfulness, peace. It's, it's an endless journey. I think people think that health and what have you is about not being overweight, trying not to perish of anything before your time. But, you know, and maybe hang on to being able to do some stuff when you're still reasonably young. It's, health is an endless journey of just unending discovery. Or if it's related to fitness, it's looking good for others and

• 1:24:51Speaker 00

  feeling attractive and, and having to eat stuff that you don't like, tastes horrible and wishing you could have this. And, you know, and getting to bed, you know, after, as long as it's not too late after you finish your Netflix series or what have you.

• 1:25:08Steven Bartlett?

  Johnny, a truly remarkable conversation and it really highlights to me, I was thinking that this guy should have a podcast and then I reminded myself that you've just launched your podcast, which is called I Am.

• 1:25:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:18Steven Bartlett?

  And I also now understand why it's called I Am, just from this conversation.

• 1:25:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:22Steven Bartlett?

  You know, it's funny because I listened to some of your podcast episodes before you sat down and you're interviewing people. I don't know why I'm saying this to you, but when I was listening to it, and I just thought, I don't know why, but I feel compelled to say this, I was, I wanted you to talk more.

• 1:25:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:39Steven Bartlett?

  Because of everything I've discovered from this conversation today, and you're someone that's gone on a very introspective journey, who has managed to pull up those pieces of the train track and send them in a uncertain direction, which most people haven't, and you're discovering a lot on that journey, which I think is so unbelievably valuable. So when I listened to your podcast, I Am, I just wanted more of Johnny. But it was a, it's a really, really brilliant podcast for, I mean, I didn't even need to, to explain why, having listened to this conversation today. But yeah, I just, I've absolutely loved, loved this conversation and you talk about a lot of the things that I, as a very kind of introspective person, talk about. People think we're weird, right?

• 1:26:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:22Steven Bartlett?

  Do you get that sometimes?

• 1:26:23Speaker 00

  I think the best thing to be seen at the moment with the way that society leans, I think it's quite powerful to be seen as illogical in your responses, because everything's leaning towards stress and, and winning and conquering and achieving and, and reactivity and our stress has become a marker in workplaces, you know, the more stressed you are, the more important you must be. And it's almost like worn as a badge, you know, kind of like, check me out, I'm, I'm pushing it. Yeah, I, I might not be sort of, my future life is uncertain because I'm really willing to, to sort of give so much to this, whereas to be seen as illogical and a bit irrational in that area.

• 1:27:09Speaker 00

  It's quite a strong place to be right now.

• 1:27:11Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:27:12Speaker 00

  Because of where we are. So, you know, when you're kind of, I've said this before, we used to have games, rugby games where we'd lose. And I'd be sat there, head down in the change room. You know, trying to run this kind of thoughts through my head of like, oh, how, you know, it was against me, it never works out. And I've got to come back stronger and, you know, what a wasted opportunity. I'll never get this back. And I'm, you know, what a failure, et cetera, et cetera. What's this going to mean for me? And then you see someone looking in the mirror, putting their tie on, has already had a shower, already out there, tie on. And they're sort of like, where are we off to tonight, lads? And of course, society's voice, or the changing room's voice, or the team's voices, how dare you? How dare you be thinking about how good life can be?

• 1:27:54Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:27:54Speaker 00

  How dare you respond according to your dreams and the life you wish to live? Come and react according to the life that we want you to live. Come and react according to the life that you should be living. One where you sit here and show how much you care and how disappointed you are. Whereas in fact, now when I look back, I'm kind of like, I wish I'd been looking in that mirror with that guy, you know? I wish I'd been out there earlier saying, yeah, well, you know what? I gave everything, the learning's taking place. I don't need to sit here and, and torture myself with this. The learning has taken place because I've got some great, great contrast. I wanted this, I got this. It's only refined my view immediately of what, what I want now even more. And it's given me some understandings of, of what's working and what's not. The fact that I'm going to think about them isn't going to change those. I've got them.

• 1:28:39Speaker 00

  The question is, as we said, how, the marker of whether they're on their way depends upon how much I'm enjoying this moment. And what do I want to be doing now? I want to be out with the guys or I want to be at home with my family. But instead, I'm going to sit in the chamber, I'm going to be last to leave. And I'm not even going to go in the shower until the, the groundsman's turning the lights off in the clubhouse. Do you know what I mean? I'm going to be last out to show you guys that I care and I'm hurting the most.

• 1:29:05Speaker 00

  And it didn't mean a thing, you know, as far as I'm concerned, you know, like I said, it was part of a lesson I had to learn. But I, I think being seen as irrational in that way. As long as it's according to life you wish to live and it's not about not caring, totally different things. You know, it's a beautiful space to be in, I think.

• 1:29:24Steven Bartlett?

  And, you know, what a, what a beautiful place to end. I am, again, this is why I'm so excited that you're now a podcaster as well. And I'm really excited to watch, to watch that journey play out and to see where that, that journey leads you. Cause it's, you never know with podcasting, as I didn't, I didn't know I'd be sat here doing this now. But for many of the reasons you've described about that kind of manifestation and just kind of asking myself um, to, to, to figure out who, who I could become and all that I am, that's what's led me here today. And this is, you know, there's a real serendipity to the fact that we're having this conversation that's led me to meet you. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for being a, um, a very open book in all regards, because it's a very healing thing for many people who are, are yet to go on the journey you've gone on.

• 1:30:05Steven Bartlett?

  We do have a tradition on this podcast, which is that the last guest asks the next

• 1:30:11Speaker 00

  Ah, nice.

• 1:30:11Steven Bartlett?

  guest a question.

• 1:30:12Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:30:14Steven Bartlett?

  Um, and this is a very interesting one because I've read about your answer to this previously, but I can't say who the guest is, but their question for you.

• 1:30:25Speaker 00

  All right.

• 1:30:26Steven Bartlett?

  And they actually wrote a book about this, that's what I will tell you. Their, their question to you is,

• 1:30:33Steven Bartlett?

  what is your biggest regret?

• 1:30:39Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, good one. I don't, it's, it's, it's a good one. I, I used to spend all my time on these kinds of things when I was younger. And now I, I just can't for the life of me, I can't find a place for regret. It's understanding that, um, for a start on a physical level, if I went back to wherever I was, as we've said before about other people, and inhabited that energy, I see the world the same straight away. I feel the way I do straight away. I do what I think, what I think, I do what I do, I create what I create.

• 1:31:16Speaker 00

  I can't do anything different. It's inevitable. The now, which includes everything that's come to the now, it's inevitable. And to resist that is to and not accept that is to continually reacting into the future. And I think the continuing of reactivity is what I'd regret now about my future. I don't regret anything that's been, but I think sitting here now, I'd be like, it'd be a real shame if I just kept reacting for the rest of my life. Hmm. What I say is, but how nice would it be to to let inspiration decide my future rather than my my regrets and or my old ideas.

• 1:31:59Speaker 00

  And I think we mentioned about that train track regret for me as a classic of reaching back and going, more of the same, please. And just planting your own and, and, you know, in that respect, I think some people kind of spiritual people do this, they look into people's futures and kind of go, let me just see how you are at the moment. Right. If you have that going on, I can pretty much guarantee what you've got coming. Yeah. But that's not what I want. I want surprise and I can't have regrets and surprise. I can't have that kind of looking back. I can't have such an idea about how it should have been and then have freedom in the future. If I want freedom in the future, I've got to free up the past.

• 1:32:40Speaker 00

  And therefore, you know, regret has to, has to take a bit of a sideline on the bench. Amen. Thank you.