#2448 - Andrew Doyle

Andrew Doyle is a writer, broadcaster, and comedian. He is the author of several books, including his most recent, “The End of Woke: How the Culture War Went Too Far and What to Expect from the Counter-Revolution.”www.andrewdoyle.org Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Go to https://1800flowers.com/rogan to get your Double Blooms offer, buy one dozen, they’ll double it to two dozen roses free This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://BetterHelp.com/JRE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Yes, Andrew.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 0:14Joe Rogan?

  Good to see you, brother.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Good to see you, too.

• 0:16Joe Rogan?

  It has been, you said, six years almost to the day.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  Almost to the day.

• 0:19Joe Rogan?

  The last time, so.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Lots changed.

• 0:21Joe Rogan?

  Right before everything went crazy.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 0:24Joe Rogan?

  Right before.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, the whole world sort of shifted after that.

• 0:26Joe Rogan?

  Because everything went kooky around March, right?

• 0:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it was February 2020, and then we have Covid, and then we have, you know, we've had Trump in between of that, we had BLM. That summer of 2020, everything just exploded and went mad.

• 0:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then everything shifted.

• 0:40Joe Rogan?

  And then you wrote a book.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  I wrote a book.

• 0:42Joe Rogan?

  It's called The End of Woke: How the Culture War Went Too Far and What to Expect From the Counter-Revolution. Isn't that how it always goes, though? It goes like we go too far.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:52Joe Rogan?

  And then we over-correct, and we become Nazis.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's it, exactly.

• 0:57Joe Rogan?

  Or it's the opposite, we go socialist, you know?

• 1:01Speaker 01

  It's a big pendulum, I get that, it sort of goes back and forth. I mean, I was trying to, in that book, I'm trying to make the point that what woke was, was like a kind of, the latest manifestation of a kind of innate authoritarian impulse. I think human beings are, by default, quite inclined towards just shutting people up if they don't like them.

• 1:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  Just imposing their authority. And so woke was, I mean, a lot of people are annoyed that I've called it the end of woke, I'm not saying it's all over, let's just go home, forget about it, it's still going on. But the point about it is, is that in its current manifestation, things are changing now so rapidly, we are moving into some sort of new phase, and that authoritarianism, which we've associated with the left, might come up from the right, it could come up from anywhere, it's what you say about the pendulum. So you just have to be kind of vigilant about it. I don't think we were vigilant, I think that's why woke happened. We weren't vigilant against this prospect that, you know, authoritarianism could emerge in what we thought was a free society.

• 1:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, authoritarianism, it snuck in through a sheep costume.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, a wolf in a sheep's costume.

• 2:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was a costume of... Being more inclusive, being more open minded, being a better society, being kinder. You know, it led to, you know, child trans surgeries, led to chaos, it led to like a lot of like really fucking freaky things that you'd have never expected. People, people saying that the first amendment's not important, what's more important is protecting people.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Well, that was the key, wasn't it? The point was that the way it worked was that it was gulling people through language that sounded pretty sweet and kittenish.

• 2:34Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  And fluffy, you know, things like equity. Well, that sounds a lot like equality, doesn't it?

• 2:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  It doesn't mean equality, it means treating people unequally to ensure equal outcomes according to group identity. That's a very different thing. You say you're talking about, let's make everything inclusive, but what you really mean is let's exclude anyone who disagrees with what we've got to say.

• 2:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  So you're using language to mean the exact opposite. They say gender affirming care. Do they mean that? Or do they mean affirming what is effectively a pseudo scientific belief among vulnerable people? So it's, it's all about misusing language because most people I think, or I like to think are pretty decent.

• 3:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Like, most people want to be kind and want to be fair. And when you hear these activists saying, be kind, be compassionate, or else, right? You know, you kind of think, okay, well, maybe their intentions are good, but also they're pretty scary. I mean, there's, there's a, there's a weird, there was a weird thing with the woke thing, which was that on the one hand, it proclaimed to be this sort of great virtuous, kind, progressive, right side of history. How often did you hear that phrase?

• 3:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  And at the same time, they're like dangerous dogs. Like you're, you're like, I better not piss them off. I better not say the wrong thing in the workplace because they'll, they'll destroy you.

• 3:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, I always find that the most preposterous the idea is, and the, the least capable it is to stand up to scrutiny, the more violent.

• 3:56Joe Rogan?

  The enforcement of that idea will be.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:59Joe Rogan?

  Because you cannot combat that, you can't defend that idea with logic. So you have to defend it with fear and force.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:05Joe Rogan?

  And just, just shouting people down. And that's what we saw. And that's, it's a natural impulse of human beings.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 4:12Joe Rogan?

  Like when you're arguing with a kid, you know, when you're a kid and you're arguing with the kid and you say something, you don't even know you, you shut the fuck up.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:19Joe Rogan?

  Just started scaring you.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  So why is it though, that some countries and some societies seem to protect themselves better than others?

• 4:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Against that, against that impulse. And I feel at the moment that the UK is kind of failing where America is to a degree succeed, not in, obviously in all ways. But when it comes to the idea of freedom and free speech, like I think UK is pretty far, has pretty fallen to the kind of, the woke insistence that you need to control people's language so that you can create this perfect society, which can never come anyway. It's just utopian.

• 4:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think it's been co-opted. I think whatever organic version of that emerges naturally from society.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:56Joe Rogan?

  Where people, where there's an overcorrection, I think in the UK, because you guys don't have free speech laws. Cause it's just different over there.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:04Joe Rogan?

  You can get away with a lot of crazy shit. Like the, first of all, like we should explain what we're talking about. There's more than 12,000 people have been arrested in the UK in the past year for social media posts. And if you read some of those social media posts, they're not even remotely terrifying. It's not like I'm going to grab a knife and go cut the head off of every immigrant I see. Like, hey buddy, maybe we should lock this guy up and evaluate him. He sounds like a crazy person. Like, no, the immigrants are coming into this fucking country and creating all this crime. Knock on the door.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:38Joe Rogan?

  You're going to jail.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  I worry that Americans think we're mad. Sometimes I think.

• 5:41Joe Rogan?

  We do.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, do you?

• 5:42Joe Rogan?

  We do now, yeah. We think you've lost it.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:45Joe Rogan?

  We think, well, we also think something happened where your leaders are intentionally trying to tank your country. It seems like they're trying to bring in as many migrants as possible. Um, cater to them, not to the British people and do it openly.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:02Joe Rogan?

  So that everyone knows what they're doing and then create chaos on the streets. It's because of it.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, people have a phrase for that, anarcho tyranny, you know, where you punish people who aren't breaking the law, but you protect those who are.

• 6:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  I think with the, I mean, I don't know the extent that Americans know the, I mean, the stat you quoted, that came from the Times newspaper in London, which had a freedom of information request to the police, found out that it's 12,000 a year on average, so that's like 30 a day, not just being investigated or looked into, but being arrested.

• 6:31Joe Rogan?

  But over the last few years only, if you go back, it's only like a thousand or 500.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  It was 3,000, uh, last time we spoke, back in 2020.

• 6:40Joe Rogan?

  Was it really a year?

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was.

• 6:41Joe Rogan?

  Back then?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  So we already had that problem.

• 6:45Joe Rogan?

  God, I didn't know it was that many. That's crazy, even back then.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  It was already really high. I mean, we had stuff like, the old stories of like, um, there was that guy in 2010 who made a joke online about, he was at Doncaster Airport in the UK. He said, oh, if this queue doesn't hurry up, I'm gonna blow up the airport. Just a stupid funny tweet. He went all the way to court, that was a full trial. Or, so these, these laws, and I think, I think what happens with this stuff is, people don't realise how long this has been embedded in the UK. We have hate speech laws that are encoded in a number of different legislations. We have a thing called the Public Order Act, we have a thing called Malicious Communications Act, that's from 1988. We have the Communications Act from 2003. And all of these things criminalise, I tell you, I kid you not, the language in the statute books is, if it's grossly offensive, that's the phrase. If you post

• 7:32Speaker 01

  something that is grossly offensive, you can go to court, you can be prosecuted. But, you know, I find-

• 7:37Joe Rogan?

  So subjective.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Well, that's it. What does that even mean? I find laws against free speech to be grossly offensive. So should the British state be arrested? I don't know. And there's one, I think it's in the, um, Malicious Communications, Communications Act, where it talks about needless anxiety, causing needless anxiety can get you arrested. And you think, you think that's not a thing. I can give you a specific example of that.

• 8:00Joe Rogan?

  Do you smoke cigars?

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Uh, I have once. My friend Winston Marshall-

• 8:03Joe Rogan?

  Do you want one?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  I worry that if I try it, I'll cough and I'll look really wimpish and, and pathetic.

• 8:10Joe Rogan?

  And it'll won't be good for your arguments?

• 8:12Speaker 01

  It will backfire. It will, I tell you, it'll undermine everything. It'd be like, I'm sitting here with a paper hat on at Christmas, undermining all of my key points.

• 8:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  Um, I, I, see, I like, I like the flavour and I like being around smokers, because my grandmother used to chain smoke around me. So it's kind of-

• 8:26Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Well, she's Northern Irish, you know, it's the way they do. She used to give me whiskey when I was three to calm me down, you know.

• 8:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  It's that sort of family.

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• 11:41Joe Rogan?

  That's an old thing they used to do with kids.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  They did.

• 11:43Joe Rogan?

  Babies, they'd put it in their mouth.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  It worked.

• 11:46Joe Rogan?

  Like they would dip their finger in whiskey and rub it on the inside of a kid's mouth.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  If you're struggling with a child, get it drunk. That's how you do it. It's old Northern Irish wisdom. I don't think you should scoff at it. It's a good thing.

• 11:58Joe Rogan?

  I think it's grossly offensive.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  It's grossly offensive.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  The example I was gonna give was this guy called Darren Brady. And this sounds made up, and whenever I tell people this, it sounds made up. He posted a meme. I don't know if you saw this meme, where it was the four Progress Pride flags. You know that it's got the crazy triangles and stuff in it now?

• 12:19Joe Rogan?

  You put them all together and they become a swastika.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Exactly that, right? And that was going everywhere. And he posted it. And there's a video of him being arrested, put in handcuffs. He's an army veteran, by the way, right? Put in handcuffs by the police, and the policeman says in the video, "You caused someone anxiety." So the actual language from the law is being used for this rearrangement of the... And you know what? That's quite a good satirical point that he was making. It wasn't even his meme. He was just retweeting a meme. But even if it was some horrible, offensive thing, who cares?

• 12:48Joe Rogan?

  How is that offensive?

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Well, I guess.

• 12:51Joe Rogan?

  I mean, well, you can find, that's the problem. You can find anything offensive.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 12:55Joe Rogan?

  You could find anything grossly offensive if you're extremely sensitive.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  You could. And, but wasn't there a point to that? I mean, he was kind of saying that the LGBTQIA plus movement has become quite authoritarian.

• 13:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  He's not saying they're actual Nazis. And he's saying, oh, isn't it quite funny that when you put them together, it looks like a, it looks like a swastika? The idea that you get handcuffed for that.

• 13:16Joe Rogan?

  Especially for a retweet. That's crazy.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:19Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  It's retweets, it's tweets, it's posts. Uh, we've had memes are the big ones. So there was a guy called Lee Joseph Dunn, who went to prison for eight weeks. That was last year, I think, for three memes that he posted.

• 13:31Joe Rogan?

  Eight weeks?

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Eight weeks in prison. What, the right, so again, the, I'll tell you what the most offensive of the three memes was, and you can tell me whether you think it was worth prison time. He put a picture of some immigrants, uh, with knives and underneath it said, coming to a town near you. And that was it. So I don't know if you think that's worth prison time.

• 13:51Joe Rogan?

  That's the most offensive one?

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Of the three, that's the most.

• 13:54Joe Rogan?

  What's the least offensive one?

• 13:55Speaker 01

  I can't remember what the other two were. Cause I remember I looked at them, I thought, well, that's not even worth, that's not even worth thinking about. But this one was the one that really, because, because they say in England, you're stirring up hatred against minorities through the, the, the spreading of the meme.

• 14:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  You know, but that's clearly not sufficient, you know? I, I, and I think in the US you have, you have far more protections. I, I wonder whether it's to do with the fact that in the US you have the first amendment. Like, so you have something codified.

• 14:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  That says, you can say what you want. We've never had that.

• 14:26Joe Rogan?

  It's very important and it didn't seem important 20 years ago or 30 years ago. Because no one ever looked at England as being that kind of a country that would just put people, well, obviously this was all pre-social media.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:39Joe Rogan?

  And England has always been a fairly polite society.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:42Joe Rogan?

  And, and, but the thing is like now pub talk has become illegal, right?

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:48Joe Rogan?

  Like if you say something offensive in a pub, you're subject to be arrested and they're asking people to turn people in.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  There's a thing called the banter ban, which the Labour government was trying to put in. Here's the logic of the banter ban. I'd forgotten about this, but now you've mentioned it. They wanted to introduce this law so that, for instance, if you're working in a bar or a pub and you overhear someone who says something against your protected characteristic. Say you're a gay barman and someone says, "Oh, I don't like the gays," or something, and you overhear it, your employer has a duty to protect you from that kind of hate speech, that kind of harm. So therefore, there's going to be a blanket ban on speech, uncertain kinds of speech within the pub, right? I would say the guy who's eavesdropping, he's the problem, right? You shouldn't be listening in on other people's conversations. So that's a real thing.

• 15:34Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  And I guess it all comes down to this view, which I think is completely wrong, that words and violence are the same thing, that words can create a more violent society, that there's a direct causal link between the stuff that people say and the stuff that people say online to how people behave in the real world. And I think you guys have got it right, because you've got the Brandenburg test. You know about the test for incitement to violence in the US?

• 15:58Joe Rogan?

  No, what is that?

• 15:59Speaker 01

  It's basically a test that was established, I think, back in the 60s. It was a KKK leader called Clarence Brandenburg who was prosecuted for incitement to violence. And the test that was established since that precedent was that any words that can be convicted for incitement to violence, they have to be intended to cause violence, likely to cause violence, and the violence must be imminent. And if you satisfy that threshold, you can be prosecuted in the US for incitement to violence. So it'd be like, imagine a demagogue surrounded by all his fans, whipping up a frenzy and then pointing to a guy on the front row and saying, "Kill him now." That would qualify for the Brandenburg test. But in the UK, because we don't have that test, all we've got is whether people found it offensive.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  That's the difference of the threshold. So it's a massive difference between what the US has and what the UK has.

• 16:48Joe Rogan?

  Massive.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  It's insane. I mean, to give the most obvious recent example, because I don't know if people know about this, there's a woman called Lucy Connolly in the UK. I don't know if this was reported over here at all. Do you remember we had all these riots last year during the summer when, against hotels which were housing asylum seekers and people were setting fire to them? There were genuinely racist stuff going on during those riots. And this was off the back of a guy who'd murdered a bunch of little girls in a dance class. And there were rumours going around that this was an asylum seeker, right? And this one woman, a mother, who'd lost her daughter, very sensitive about the idea of Lucy Connolly, she's very sensitive about the idea of loss of kids. She tweeted in a fit of anger, "Go and burn down all the hotels for all I care. If that makes me racist, so be it.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  And take the government with you." Something like that. And she deleted it within a couple of hours. She went out, walked a dog, she deleted it, and she thought, "I really, that's not me, that's not who I am." Deleted it. Police came, went to court, sentenced her 31 months in prison for that swiftly deleted tweet. And she served over a year.

• 17:53Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Now, I'm not saying the tweet was nice, right? The tweet was a horrible tweet, and she says it was a horrible tweet, that's why she deleted it. But because we don't have that Brandenburg test, we don't have a test for incitement to violence. Because the key is, that tweet, there was no way it could have, she was a nobody, you know, she wasn't someone with influence, she didn't have many followers. She, no one was going to read that and go and act upon it. And if they did, that would be on them, right? Because this is a myth, this myth that people act on cue to what they read online. It isn't real.

• 18:26Joe Rogan?

  It influences people, for sure. But at what point are you required to have sovereignty over your own mind and your own actions?

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I think what it does is it raises the temperature, particularly when political leaders do it.

• 18:42Joe Rogan?

  Right, but when political, but my point is like, it's not going to incite you to violence, it's not going to incite me to violence. So who are we talking about? This is part of the thing, is like, they're protecting the dumbest members of society. This is like the thing about banning, you know, crazy talk online, if you're talking about witches, or, you know, whatever it is, flat earth. Like, we have to stop misinformation. From who? It's not working on you, right? You don't believe it, so who are we protecting? We're protecting the dumbest people?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Also, aren't you kind of letting them off? Like, if someone goes and commits an act of violence and said, "Oh, I did it because someone told me to do it," aren't you kind of letting? Them off the hook.

• 19:21Joe Rogan?

  Right, exactly.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  And sort of displacing the blame. You know, it's like that guy who shot John Lennon, who said Catcher in the Rye made him do it. Reading the book Catcher. Are we now blaming J D Salinger?

• 19:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  For the murder of John Lennon. It was John Lennon, wasn't it? I think he did, yeah.

• 19:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Do you? I think the safest approach is to say people are responsible for their own actions. I think the best that you could say is when political leaders and people with clout say things like that, to sort of say, you know, it's fine to go out and commit violence. I think what they do is they create a kind of imprimatur of approval. They create this kind of sense that if you do it, the people in charge will have your back. If you do it, it's okay.

• 19:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, this was the argument with Trump for January sixth.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 20:03Joe Rogan?

  And that's why the BBC edited his speech to make it look as if that's what he was saying.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Do you see, you saw that clip, right?

• 20:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God, it's fucking crazy.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  I, I mean, I've been saying for a long time, the BBC has a real, like, what I will say in the BBC's defense is they've always been pretty good at being party politically neutral. Like, they will interrogate someone in the right and someone in the left in a pretty neutral way. They don't, I think they do a pretty good, I know people will be annoyed at me for saying that, but I think they do. But I think in terms of the ideology, the woke ideology, they got captured. They have a thing at the BBC called the LGBT desk, or they had it up until recently, which could veto any news story, which meant that any story that was slightly critical of trans activism or anything like that just didn't get reported. So I'm not surprised that the BBC have a-

• 20:48Joe Rogan?

  They gave them veto power?

• 20:49Speaker 01

  They gave them veto power, yeah.

• 20:50Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  This all came out in a report, quite a recent report, just a few months ago, which led to the resignation of Tim David, the Director General. And he resigned ostensibly because of that Trump clip, which, by the way, that wasn't the first time they did it. There, there was another clip about a year, a year before, in a different program that did the same thing. Took the clip, re-edited it, and made it look like he had said something he absolutely had not said. So I think the BBC quite obviously has an ideological bias, if not a party political bias.

• 21:20Joe Rogan?

  But that's more than a bias.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Well, it's misleading, right?

• 21:23Joe Rogan?

  Yes, it's completely deceptive. You're, you're editing something and change, I mean, they took out a giant chunk of his speech.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:31Joe Rogan?

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• 22:15Joe Rogan?

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• 22:36Speaker 01

  They leapt like 45 minutes or something. So he said-

• 22:39Joe Rogan?

  Something crazy like that.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, he said, it made him look like he was saying, "Go and commit the right."

• 22:43Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 22:44Joe Rogan?

  And instead, he was tongue-in-cheek, talking about the very fine senator, that they're doing a great job, the senators and congresspeople.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:54Joe Rogan?

  Said all this other stuff.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  It's so weird.

• 22:56Joe Rogan?

  And then said, "You have to fight like hell to keep your country."

• 22:59Speaker 01

  I mean, no offense, but you can find daft stuff that Trump says pretty easily, right? You don't, you don't, you don't need to edit that stuff down.

• 23:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's because they had an opportunity to, like what we were saying before, earlier, we were talking before the show, you can put out a narrative, and it doesn't have to be true, and then that's the one that sticks. So that's the one that spreads wide. And then, when, all these years later, they have to have this, you know, trial, and everybody finds out it's not true, but the damage is done. I mean, that's what they did with Trump during the whole Steele dossier.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:32Joe Rogan?

  You know, the hookers and peeing on people and, you know, all that crazy shit. Remember that?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  I remember the idea that he'd hired hookers to urinate on the bed that was once occupied- By the Obamas.

• 23:42Joe Rogan?

  Something along those lines.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  The reason I didn't believe that is I don't think Trump is that avant garde. I don't think he's that creative. Like if he'd have come up with that, I'd have been actually applauding that. That's kind of amazing. But obviously he didn't do that.

• 23:52Joe Rogan?

  That's not even something to applaud. That just sounds completely ridiculous.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Getting urination on the bed of your enemy through the medium of prostitution. I think that's kind of an artistic thing to do. But I don't think he did it. He obviously didn't do it. None of it's true.

• 24:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  But you put that. But isn't that weird that that in particular, that's like something I don't think anyone seriously could believe.

• 24:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's plenty of people that believed it.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Really?

• 24:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they don't have to believe it. They just say it. Like, that was the whole point about, you know, the trial where he got arrested and convicted of thirty-four counts that are a felony, none of which are actually a felony. That's all bookkeeping deception. That was the paying off of the girl.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:33Joe Rogan?

  So now you can say he's a convicted felon. You can just say that. And even though all those counts were misdemeanors, all of them had passed the statute of limitations.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah.

• 24:43Joe Rogan?

  But for some reason, through no legal way that anybody could ever really honestly explain, they decided to label it a felony. And it was just to turn him into a felon.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  I saw the, I saw even left-leaning anti-Trump lawyers saying this is not how the law should work. You can't artificially elevate a misdemeanor to a felony outside the statute of limitations. It's crazy.

• 25:04Joe Rogan?

  The thing is, if you do that, they're gonna do that to you.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:07Joe Rogan?

  It's like, we're gonna give that kind of power to the Republicans? And now when they're in office, they're gonna start doing things like that? Are we crazy?

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Well, also, this really bothers me. Like, one of the key things that I think's happened over the past few years is this complete lack of fealty to the truth from both sides.

• 25:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  It's whatever is convenient matters more. A complete lack of intellectual curiosity, a complete lack of investigating and looking and thoroughly checking. And by the way, with the BBC, that really matters because unlike the news media here, which can be as partisan as it likes, the BBC is the state broadcaster. It's got a responsibility by charter to not be, you know, to be balanced, to be even-handed. And it completely failed. And I saw today, just this morning, some people, you know, we've got all the mania about the Epstein files at the Some activists have now said JK Rowling once invited Epstein to the opening of her theater, her play, uh, never happened. But because there's a furor about Epstein at the moment, they're just saying it happened. It gets spread all over the place.

• 26:05Joe Rogan?

  That's all you have to do.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  And that's all you have to do. And then, then the dammit, and then that gets repeated. Oh, didn't this happen?

• 26:11Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Like what you say about Trump is right. I always hear that he's a convicted felon. He's a convicted felon. Well, why don't you pause for a minute and assess whether or not that conviction is sound, or whether it was politically motivated, or how helpful that is. But like you say.

• 26:24Joe Rogan?

  Also, it's like, it's such a dangerous precedent to set. It's terrible. Like, if you do that, it look, right now in the United States, the, the media predominantly leans left, except for Fox News, the mainstream, large scale media. I guess CBS is probably going to lean more right now.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:43Joe Rogan?

  It seems like it's in the process of that. But for the most part, when you watch CNN, if you watch MSNBC, if you watch the mainstream news, it's very left leaning.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:52Joe Rogan?

  But if the fucking, if right wing people started, if, if it was like more common for the news to be right leaning, and then they started doing the exact same thing about a left leaning candidate.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:07Joe Rogan?

  This is so dangerous. And the idea that the left doesn't recognize that, which are the people that have always been in support of free speech? It's never been a right wing thing to support free speech until now.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:19Joe Rogan?

  It's always been a left wing thing. When I was a kid, it was so famously the case of the ADL, defending Nazis having the right to protest and saying, look, we, we think what they're saying is abhorrent, but it's very important that you get the right to say whatever you feel. And then the way to combat that is with much better, more concise speech that's much more logical and makes sense.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:40Joe Rogan?

  And this is what you do. This is what debate is for. This is, this is, we've always known this.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, I mean, I, I agree. I'm so dispirited by that, that very thing that you've identified, that the left used to be about this. The left used to be all about, I mean, that example you mentioned of, of a Skokie, wasn't it, in Chicago, the, the Nazis marching through Skokie and the ACLU saying, we're, you know, we're defending this. There was a book by a guy. Coria Nea, who was the head of the ACLU, called Defending My Enemy.

• 28:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it wasn't the idea, it was the ACLU.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  It was the ACLU, and he was saying, you know, he's Jewish, he's got family members who died in the Holocaust, but he's writing a book saying, "I'm defending neo-Nazis' right to free speech, not because I support them, but because I don't. And I want to defend the principle whereby I can tackle them, and that's speech."

• 28:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  So that, in other words, the principle is so much bigger. I mean, the thing that I think has been lost, and now, by the way, the ACLU, complete about-turn, I mean, there was a lawyer for the ACLU tweeting about how he wanted Abigail Schreier's book banned, and he said, "This is the hill I will die on." You know, that's a guy called Chase, or was it a guy, I think it's a trans activist called Chase something, I can't remember. Anyway. But the point is, how far have you fallen? When it comes to these free speech issues, left or right, it's nothing to do with it. It should be about this principle of, it's not whether you agree with what they're saying and the substance of what they're saying, it's whether you want the principle intact. And that principle applies to us all. The very same principle that allows the Nazis to say all their crazy stuff is the principle that allows us to challenge it, to tackle it.

• 29:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's a very short-term win. And it's basically they're playing chess, and they decided, "I want that rook no matter what." And then they just sacrificed their queen. Like, look what you've done. Look what you've done for this short-term victory. You're essentially tanking civilization for a decade, where we have to sort this out, and like, let the ship wash itself back and forth until it writes.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so how, and how do you ensure that it's not going to happen to you? Like, I think about that, there was a National Conservative Conference in Brussels about a year and a half ago. The local mayor said, "I don't like this," and he had the police rush it, shut it down. And you had mainstream right-wing figures like Nigel Farage, Suella Braverman. How do they not think, "Hang on a minute, if we establish that precedent, where you can just shut down your political opponents through the use of police force, how will that not rebound on me? How will that not happen to us?"

• 29:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, this is the argument that they're using right now for Trump going after his political opponents.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Right, right, because they opened that Pandora's box, right?

• 30:01Joe Rogan?

  You guys did that with him.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:03Joe Rogan?

  And everybody was saying how damn dangerous it is.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:07Joe Rogan?

  You can't fucking do that, even if you hate the guy. If, like, if there's a real- Real crime that you can get someone, but when you take a crime like the bookkeeping stuff.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:16Joe Rogan?

  And turn it into a felony that could put this man in jail for the rest of his life for doing something that turns out to be legal. You can pay people to shut up.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:25Joe Rogan?

  And this is so, it's just, it's so weird that people for this short term gain.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:30Joe Rogan?

  Are willing to tank, which is essentially this whole structure of our civilization that allows free discourse. You need it. It's so important, so important to be able to communicate and talk. If podcasts didn't exist, there was no way to talk through ideas. Other than mainstream news, we would still be stuck in some very bizarre nineteen nineties or nineteen eighties narrative. About how the world works.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:57Joe Rogan?

  We would have real problems. We'd have real problems if there wasn't independent journalism like on Twitter and on wherever they can post.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. So why don't they get it? I mean, we've had like people in left leaning papers in the UK. Calling for Elon Musk to be arrested because he's allowing free speech on X or Twitter, whatever you want to call it. Like.

• 31:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, their offices got raided today.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Did it?

• 31:19Joe Rogan?

  Some country. There was a country where X's offices got raided. I think one of the things was they somehow or another let, there were, I think something had to do with child pornography.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Where was that? France?

• 31:34Joe Rogan?

  France. First investigation into Grok. And what is it? What are the?

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Oh, so you know what this is all about?

• 31:40Joe Rogan?

  See, here is.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:41Joe Rogan?

  Suspected offenses, including unlawful data extraction and complicity in the possession of child pornography.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's not what this is about. This is because people have been misusing Grok to like put bikinis on women they like or. Even in a few horrible cases, creating child, child sex.

• 31:58Joe Rogan?

  You can do, wait a minute, you can't create child pornography on Grok.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  No, or, or, or at least I think that's very much been shut down and safeguarded, right? I think that's what's happened.

• 32:07Joe Rogan?

  I mean, unless there's like some sort of a loophole where you could get it to do it. Among potential crimes, it said it would investigate were complicity in possession or organized distribution of images of children of a pornographic nature, infringement of people's image rights with sexual deep fakes. Okay, the sexual deep fakes.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:25Joe Rogan?

  So sexual deep flakes is like if you put Hillary Clinton in a bikini and made her hot, that's a sexual deep fake.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 32:32Joe Rogan?

  Fraudulent date extraction by an organized group. I think you can still do some of that stuff.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  You can put people in bikinis.

• 32:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think you can do that. So like if you wanted to take Shaquille O'Neal and put him in a bikini, you could say you're sexualizing him.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Okay, I, I, yeah, I mean, I guess you can do that.

• 32:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  So but that's what, so that'll be why, you know, recently Keir Starmer, Prime Minister of UK, said he wanted, was considering, or not necessarily he was gonna ban X, but it wasn't off the table. It's something like, as though he's gonna do that. But this is always the excuse, like.

• 33:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  We're protecting children.

• 33:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  And, and look, no one wants that sort of stuff, right? No one wants deep fakes of kids, obviously, but there's far, I mean, looking at the stats on that, there's far more child sexual, sexual exploitation on Snapchat, for instance. But they don't go after Snapchat because Snapchat isn't the former. Keir Starmer is getting criticized every single day and brutally hauled over the coals by, by people checking his facts. One of the best things about X recently is the community notes, checking, checking journalists and politicians in real time with facts. They hate it. They hate that. So no wonder they're going after X.

• 33:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Biden got cooked by community notes multiple times.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:37Joe Rogan?

  The part where the administration was taking down posts.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, so did the, the Guardian, the left-leaning newspaper. It flounced off X with a big statement saying, we're going to blue sky. We've had it, we're off to blue sky. It was such a flounce. And of course, and then, of course, everyone was retweeting all their community notes. They had loads of them.

• 33:54Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Just absolutely loads of them.

• 33:56Joe Rogan?

  Because it's not true. And, you know, especially when it's open to the whole world.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:00Joe Rogan?

  And people that aren't stuck under your guidelines, like in America, we could just talk shit.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:04Joe Rogan?

  And I think the reason why it's in France probably has a lot to do with Candace Owens.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, that makes complete sense.

• 34:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That might be it. Macron and like, I mean, how many times did that get shared?

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 34:17Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that is.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  That makes sense of it now.

• 34:19Joe Rogan?

  By the way, there's a real quick way to solve that. Open chromosome test. Yeah.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  I thought you were gonna be a bit more graphic than that.

• 34:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, you don't have to.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  No, you don't have to.

• 34:28Joe Rogan?

  Because that doesn't really solve it, because you could, if, unless, I mean, there's no operation, but if she's gone through a surgery, then, you know, you could show a picture and it's probably pretty realistic, especially, when was the last time you saw a 70-year-old lady's cooter?

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Last week.

• 34:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, congratulations.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  I'm just interested in that sort of stuff.

• 34:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know, you're allowed to be curious in this country.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  That's actually a really good example, though, isn't it, of the, just something so obviously not true, just going all over the world, like, in a, in a matter of moments.

• 34:56Joe Rogan?

  Is it not true, though?

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Well, that Macron's wife is a man.

• 34:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not true.

• 35:00Joe Rogan?

  100%?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Well, you know, the burden of proof is on those who want to say that it is true.

• 35:04Joe Rogan?

  The reality of the story is weird enough, without it being true, like, the 40-year-old man and the...

• 35:10Speaker 01

  He was, wasn't she his schoolteacher?

• 35:11Joe Rogan?

  She was 40, yeah. She was 40, if it was, if it is actually a woman, she was 40 and he was 15, that's crazy.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  And everyone says, well, they're French, that's, that seems to be, that seems to be the thing.

• 35:23Joe Rogan?

  What a wild country.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  People just say, that's the way it works in France. Yep, but again, look, I would say, with all of this, you need some sort of proof, you need, like, when you, wasn't it the Carl Sagan thing about extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? I think that's a pretty safe dictat, the idea that, okay, anything could be true, you know, or, you know, there have been crazy conspiracies that turned out to be true, so I'm not, I would never rule anything out, but what I'm saying is, if you're gonna make a claim like that, you better be damn sure you've got really solid evidence about that, right?

• 35:55Joe Rogan?

  She's got hours-long documentaries on this.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, and are they, are they persuasive?

• 36:01Joe Rogan?

  I haven't watched them all. Do you think I have that kind of time, dog?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Well, you should do, you should do your research before, you're part of the problem, outrageous.

• 36:11Joe Rogan?

  I can't do research on that, I, I want to wait till it plays out in court.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  But whenever I do do research, like, I'll give you the, the example from this week, just because I'm reading it now, a woman's written a book claiming that Shakespeare was a black woman.

• 36:23Joe Rogan?

  I saw that.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, um, this is a major spoiler alert. Shakespeare wasn't a black woman.

• 36:29Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've got the book, I'm, I'm reading the book now. It is worse than you imagine.

• 36:35Joe Rogan?

  How could it be worse than I imagined?

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Because, because it's obviously not true, firstly.

• 36:39Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  But, but, um, she basically says in the book that, um, it's important that it should be true. And therefore, yeah. And in fact, the book opens with a picture of Shakespeare as a black woman, which was drawn by the author.

• 36:52Joe Rogan?

  Ugh.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  So.

• 36:54Joe Rogan?

  Is it a good drawing?

• 36:55Speaker 01

  No, it's okay. I, I get, I don't want to mock someone else.

• 36:58Joe Rogan?

  Can I see it?

• 36:59Speaker 01

  If it's out, it's the front, it's the first, oh, that's the book.

• 37:02Joe Rogan?

  That's actually pretty good.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  No, no, that's, no, no, no.

• 37:05Joe Rogan?

  That's a black woman?

• 37:06Speaker 01

  No, no, no. That's a portrait of Amelia Lanyer, who she says was Shakespeare. And she says that the portraits at the time were whitened to disguise her blackness. In, in the book itself.

• 37:16Joe Rogan?

  Convenient.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  In the book itself, you won't be able to get in the book, I don't think, Jamie. But in the book itself, there's a sketch that she's done. So it's like, I can imagine a publisher saying, oh, what evidence have you got? And she's like, oh, well, I'll, I'll go and draw it for you. And that's sort of what she's done.

• 37:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, she was black and Jewish?

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, black Jewish. Well, actually, I mean, Amelia Lanyer was part, part Moorish, but wasn't black. And she wasn't particularly dark skinned.

• 37:38Joe Rogan?

  And she was Jewish as well?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, part Jewish.

• 37:40Joe Rogan?

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• 38:25Joe Rogan?

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• 39:08Joe Rogan?

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• 39:24Speaker 01

  So she's called Amelia Lanya or Amelia Bassano. And one of the arguments is that Shakespeare at the time, if she was a woman, wouldn't have been able to get published because women couldn't get published. But Amelia Lanya was published. She had a book of poetry. So all of this stuff falls apart like in two seconds flat. And this is the best one. She even says in the book that the word Shakespeare is an anagram of a she-speaker.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  I'm not making that up. That's what she says. I mean, you know, listen.

• 39:59Joe Rogan?

  What a cover up. How'd she crack the case?

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Well, actually, it's an old theory. It's like a 20-year-old theory.

• 40:04Joe Rogan?

  Is it really?

• 40:04Speaker 01

  I tell you.

• 40:05Joe Rogan?

  20 years old.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  She's just sort of rehashing it now for this identitarian, post-woke world where we're all like, we're desperate for Shakespeare to be a black woman. And it's so.

• 40:14Joe Rogan?

  That's so fun.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  It's so pathetic. This was my first encounter with conspiracy theories, because my background is, I did a doctorate in Shakespeare. My background was teaching Shakespeare, back in the day, like before I did comedy and before I did anything else. And it was the conspiracy theorists around Shakespeare, saying Shakespeare couldn't have written his work. They are the most intense, the most angry, the most evidence-free cohort of people you can, they get more, they're angrier than the woke. I promise you, like, I've tweeted, I've written stuff about Shakespeare online. I recently did some lectures about Shakespeare for the Peterson Academy, because I'm really into help, I love the Peterson Academy, I love what they're doing. And I did these Shakespeare lectures, and the conspiracy theorists were on to me online, saying, it wasn't Shakespeare, the guy from Stratford didn't write this. And, and what all these theories have in common is, they've just made, there's no evidence, there's no evidence.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  The key point about Shakespeare is, if you're going to say it wasn't the guy who everyone thought it was, you have to answer one key question. Why does everyone who knew Shakespeare, wrote about Shakespeare, say that it was?

• 41:10Joe Rogan?

  Can I stop you? Because I'm confused. I didn't even know that there was a conspiracy about Shakespeare.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Yeah, there's lots.

• 41:16Joe Rogan?

  I had heard one person say that Shakespeare wasn't real, and that it was really someone else's work that he plagiarized.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:25Joe Rogan?

  I had heard that, but I never even bothered to fuck around with it.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Well, it actually came from America, it's you guys.

• 41:30Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  It was.

• 41:31Joe Rogan?

  We're the best. We're number one.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  There was a guy called Loon, a guy called Looney, actually, from America.

• 41:36Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious. You gotta listen to that guy.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  So he, we're going back like sixty, seventy years or something, but he came up with this idea that Shakespeare was actually an aristocrat called Edward de Vere, the Earl of Oxford. Problem is, Edward de Vere died in sixteen oh four, that's before Macbeth, that's before Antony and Cleopatra, that's before Coriolanus, that's before the tempest. So he managed to, I think they get around it by saying, he wrote these plays, and then he, and then he died, and then the plays got.

• 42:01Joe Rogan?

  Shakespeare found them?

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Or, or something, yeah, so, so even though some of those plays actually have cultural references from the time after de Vere died, but it doesn't matter, maybe he was a prophet as well. But, but, but all of the, all of the, you, you speak to these people, you'll, you'll see what I mean. Edward de Vere, they think, some people think it was Francis Bacon, some people think it was Christopher Marlowe, some people think it was Elizabeth the First. Like, all, all of the candidates they put up, right, the key thing is, they're all aristocrats, they're all posh. Why? Because Shakespeare was a middle class, lower middle class, not very rich, didn't go to university, came from the Midlands. You know, up and coming guy who, and they say, well, how could someone like that write about kings and lords and ladies? It's snobbery. They're basically saying working class people can't do, can't do art. That, I mean, really, that's what it is.

• 42:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Otherwise, they wouldn't be going after all these aristocrats.

• 42:49Joe Rogan?

  And it's the opposite in America, oddly.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 42:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So if you were a Rockefeller in America, you're from the Rockefeller family and you wrote an amazing novel, no one would believe it.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Right, okay.

• 43:00Joe Rogan?

  They'd say, no, that has to be like some guy who, or some woman who's like grinding, drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes alone in their apartment to write something that's brilliant.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  So I wonder what it is about the UK. Well, although, like I say, a lot of it comes from America and is it just the, the need to tear down an icon? Is it that? Is it?

• 43:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  I mean, I get it now with this woman who's, who's saying Shakespeare's a black woman. I get that at the moment because we're in this moment of identitarian, group identity mania, right? So that makes sense. She's got a political reason why she wants it to be a black woman. So I kind of understand that more. But what is it? I think it might be more to do with the idea that this guy changed civilization, changed literature. No one else has achieved what he achieved in writing. He's up there with Michelangelo, Bach, you know, all of that. Let's tear that down. Let's tear down Western civilization. Let's say, none of this is based on anything. This is all, this is all untrue.

• 43:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  I think it's to do with the, that innate iconoclasm, that innate, you know, just, just tearing down the great things about our culture.

• 43:59Joe Rogan?

  For sure. That's always been the case. And people always want to tear down idols. They want to tear down, you know, whoever it is, no matter what. I was watching this video we were talking about the other day of this woman talking about how the Beatles were terrible.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:12Joe Rogan?

  And this woman's not very articulate, not particularly interesting, doesn't seem that compelling. And she was going on and on about how bad the Beatles were. I'm like, but you're not going to convince anyone. This is not going to work, but people are gonna fucking try. They're gonna try no matter what, no matter who it is. Hendrix sucked. I've heard that before.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 44:29Joe Rogan?

  Hendrix sucked. Like, stop.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  But at least that's based on an opinion, right? There's a, there's a difference between saying Jimi Hendrix sucked and Jimi Hendrix was actually a woman from Liverpool called Maude.

• 44:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know the theory about Jimi Hendrix in America? Do you know that?

• 44:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:44Joe Rogan?

  Okay. So it's the people that are like deep into the CIA and CIA conspiracies. And what is it called? Strange Tales from the Canyon? Is that what it's called, the book? Um, so there's a book on, there's a bizarre connection between a lot of the countercultural figures of the nineteen sixties.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:04Joe Rogan?

  And, and the intelligence community. Uh, one of them is Jim Morrison's father was like a high ranking military officer. And then there's different people from different bands that were like a key part of the countercultural movement that all have parents that were either in intelligence communities or closely connected to it.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Like a suspicious scenes inside the canyon.

• 45:27Joe Rogan?

  It's a crazy book. It's, uh, it's fun. It's kinda fun.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Is it crazy as in like the revelations are crazy or that it's just not true?

• 45:35Joe Rogan?

  Well, they, they make some broad leaps, right? So there's a lot of, and then a year later, he died in mysterious circumstances, or a year later, he died from suicide, or a year later, he died from overdose. You know, well, okay, you're hanging out with a bunch of people that are doing drugs all the time and they're all ne'er do wells and they're all hanging out in Laurel Canyon. And if you don't know Laurel Canyon, Laurel Canyon, at least at the time, I mean, when I first moved to Hollywood, it's like all the weirdos would live in Laurel Canyon.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:02Joe Rogan?

  Like all the weirdos were like right there above Hollywood and there was all these crazy parties up there. It was like Laurel Canyon was nuts.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  And they all knew each other, right? So they're all part of that circle.

• 46:12Joe Rogan?

  So, I mean, this was like when I moved there in the nineties, this was the case. My friend Dave Foley had a house up there.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:19Joe Rogan?

  And it was like all these kooky people and he was telling me about all these kooky parties and all this different shit. It was like Laurel Canyon was always like kinda, so of course a bunch of people are gonna die.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  So what's the theory?

• 46:29Joe Rogan?

  People are gonna be connected to bands and, and different.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:33Joe Rogan?

  Counterculture movements. The theory is that the CIA, um, sort of engineered this, this culture to, I don't know why, I'm, I'm not exactly sure, cause I haven't gotten all the way through the book. I'm only like half.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Are you still, you're still reading it?

• 46:48Joe Rogan?

  No, I pick it up every now and then. It's just like, it's too kooky.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  It's not grabbing you?

• 46:54Joe Rogan?

  Well.

• 46:56Joe Rogan?

  You can't make Jimi Hendrix in a lab, okay?

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:00Joe Rogan?

  You can't. It's just you can't fucking do it. You can't make someone that good. It's not possible.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:06Joe Rogan?

  You can't tell me, if they did, why haven't they done it since? Why don't they do it all the time?

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:11Joe Rogan?

  That guy's the greatest guitarist of all time, and you're telling me the central intelligence cooked that guy up?

• 47:17Speaker 01

  So they invented him, like, he's like their clone or something?

• 47:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, they just think that they had some sort of an influence on these people, on Jim Morrison. Like, there was a thing about Morrison, the Morrison one. Like, what is the connection between Jim Morrison's dad and the intelligence agencies? There's some, like, tangible connection with Jim Morrison's dad. But wouldn't you just normally assume that if your dad was some high-ranking military guy? First of all, never home.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:44Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so where are you? You're out running around with your friends, smoking cigarettes and fucking drinking, and you're in a band, and it turns out you got a lot of angst and pain because you're being neglected as a child because your dad worked 16 hours a day trying to fuck the country over. And so what do you do? You go counterculture. It's like, it's so common. The preacher's daughter, she becomes like a harlot, right?

• 48:06Speaker 01

  So, there you go, a high-ranking US officer with, yeah.

• 48:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  But that is, okay, but again, like, this is a perfect example.

• 48:12Joe Rogan?

  Wow, he's involved in the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Whoa.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  But that's not proof of anything.

• 48:17Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, no, no, no, but his dad is.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, you know, but this is the thing. They'll take something like that, they'll take various strips of coincidences, and they say this leads us to this conclusion. But all they're doing is coming up with a conclusion first and working backwards. Like, this sort of stuff, you see it again and again.

• 48:33Joe Rogan?

  So this is how this connects with intelligence agencies. McGowan, I guess that's the author. "Core move is to group Morrison's father with other Laurel Canyon musicians' parents who worked in military, defense, or intelligence-linked roles, and to frame this as evidence of a broader covert program around the 1960s rock scene."

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 48:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  So are you saying that the CIA were trying to influence the culture through the medium of rock music?

• 48:59Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  And that's somehow tied to espionage and...

• 49:02Speaker 03

  They also have that film, like, studio.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 49:07Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 49:08Speaker 03

  Jared Leto bought that place that was a film studio in Royal Canyon too?

• 49:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh, well, it's a base. It's an actual base.

• 49:13Speaker 03

  But they were making films, a lot of films were.

• 49:15Joe Rogan?

  I was talking to Jared about that. I had dinner with Jared Leto one night. He's very cool, by the way. Very, really nice guy. Very normal. And by the way, he looks like he's thirty, he's fifty years old. It's crazy.

• 49:26Speaker 03

  Moisturizer or something.

• 49:27Joe Rogan?

  What are you doing with your fucking skin? You look great.

• 49:29Speaker 03

  Lookout Mountain Laboratory Air Force Station.

• 49:32Joe Rogan?

  So he bought that place and converted it into a home.

• 49:36Joe Rogan?

  That's where he lives. It's a dope spot.

• 49:38Speaker 03

  Soundstage.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Looks quite nice.

• 49:39Joe Rogan?

  Soundstage, film laboratory, two screening rooms, four editing rooms, and animation and still photo department, sound mixing studio, numerous climate-controlled film vaults.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  And this is connected to the conspiracy somehow?

• 49:50Joe Rogan?

  Well, this was an actual military base.

• 49:52Speaker 03

  Located in that same neighborhood.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:54Joe Rogan?

  So this air force station, whatever it was, I wonder what they were doing? Like, why did they need all that film capability? Why did they need to be?

• 50:03Speaker 03

  In theory, I guess, like when they would show the atomic bombs going off and would play it in the movie theater for people to see it.

• 50:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 50:10Speaker 03

  That's how they would make the actual, like, you know, reels and whatnot.

• 50:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, that makes sense, right? Makes sense that they were right there in Hollywood if that's what they were doing.

• 50:17Speaker 03

  On top, I don't, what other, other things they made? See, like, here's a, the still from.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 50:23Speaker 03

  Lookout Mountain Laboratory.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  So it's just a studio then? A special effects studio?

• 50:26Speaker 03

  But it's in that same neighborhood at the, at the same time.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, but so what? I mean, I, I think with all of the.

• 50:31Joe Rogan?

  He's not, he's not arguing for it.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, goddammit, Jamie!

• 50:34Speaker 03

  The so what of it is that there wasn't that many of them to begin with and just they all happened to be in the same.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  But you, but you don't think with all of this stuff, like, again and again, the pattern is either there's gaps, there's gaps in what we know, and people decide to fill them in themselves, because there's a kind of comfort to that. There's also some kind of comfort with, I know something that no one else does. I've got the answer. There's a status element to that. I remember, I read a book when I was a kid, like teenager, called The Sacred Virgin and the Holy Whore, and it was about, um, sort of books I read. And it was about, um, Jesus, and it was trying to prove that Jesus was a woman. And, and, and as you're reading it, you're thinking, yeah, oh, yeah, Jesus is a woman! I can't believe I, look at that! And then you get to the end, you think, what the hell did I just read? And it's that thing of, you can march.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Any kind of half baked fact or any, you can marshal certain things that we can see and fill in the gaps yourself and lead to a crazy conclusion. What concerns me isn't so much that people do that because people have done that forever, as long as they've been human beings. Is that now people are leaping at it and falling for it in a way that I haven't seen. Maybe it is just social media, right?

• 51:38Joe Rogan?

  It is.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Can I give you an example of this?

• 51:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, please.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  A recent one, which I just thought was nuts. Did you see the portrait of King Charles III by an artist, I think his name was Yeoh, Y E O. A rare, it's a big red portrait which currently hangs in Buckingham Palace.

• 51:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I have seen that, it's crazy.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  If you take a quarter of it, invert it, flip it, add a bit and squint, it looks like a goat devil, right?

• 52:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  But you have to do a lot of steps to find the goat devil.

• 52:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, of course, it's a puzzle.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  You could probably.

• 52:07Joe Rogan?

  How dare you?

• 52:08Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 52:08Joe Rogan?

  How dare you dismiss that puzzle? Let's show the photo and show how it's done because it's kind of fun.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Can you see the goat? Oh, there we go. So can you see the goat as well?

• 52:16Joe Rogan?

  First of all, just the photo by itself, like, hey, man, what the fuck are you doing?

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Oh, it's a creepy picture.

• 52:22Joe Rogan?

  Why am I splattered in blood?

• 52:24Speaker 01

  I've seen it in the flesh, it's a creepy picture.

• 52:26Joe Rogan?

  One thing, if you did that in all white, it was an all white background, that would be one thing. Like, oh, that's kind of an interesting look or, you know, pastel.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  So what are you saying, Joe? Are you already suspicious? Is that what you're saying?

• 52:37Joe Rogan?

  The photo's nuts, like, the painting is nuts.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Where's the goat?

• 52:40Joe Rogan?

  So all you have to do is put it together, side by side, you don't have to do that much. You exaggerated how much you have to do.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  No, I saw a video of the.

• 52:46Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, no, no, trust me.

• 52:48Speaker 03

  Look at it upside down, looks.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Oh, no, look.

• 52:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, the other way, I found a goat. Put it back, put it back.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Wait a minute, wait a minute. Oh, hold on a minute, hold on a minute. I can completely see the goat now.

• 52:56Joe Rogan?

  That's 100% a goat. They did it on purpose. That is, that's a, that's a sign. Go back to the other one, though. Click on that one. I see a goat there. I see some evil demon, look at the two eyeballs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, bro.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Where?

• 53:08Joe Rogan?

  100%. Stop, stop trying to gaslight me. I see a monster.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I mean.

• 53:16Joe Rogan?

  You can find something in everything, man.

• 53:18Speaker 03

  This all looks all superimposed.

• 53:19Joe Rogan?

  I mean, you see.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  I can see Martha Stewart in that.

• 53:21Joe Rogan?

  The Virgin Mary and a grilled cheese sandwich.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  You can see it in the clouds and the rocks and like, there's a term for this where our brains look for patterns and things and.

• 53:28Joe Rogan?

  I had a conversation once with a friend of mine that I didn't know was going crazy.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:33Joe Rogan?

  And he goes, hey, you want to see something crazy? And he pulls out his phone and he shows me a cloud.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:40Joe Rogan?

  And I go, what is that? He goes, dude, I'm seeing this all day. And he shows me some other ones. He's got like hundreds of photos of clouds on his phone.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:47Joe Rogan?

  I go, what are you seeing? He said, these are UFOs. He goes, these are spaceships. This is not a regular cloud. And I'm looking at the photos, like he's just been taking pictures of clouds all day. And I realize, oh, my God, my friend is going schizophrenic. He's, I didn't know him well.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  So he was ill?

• 54:03Joe Rogan?

  Friend, yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 54:05Joe Rogan?

  The more I talked to him, the more I realized there was something cracked. Like, it is a guy I hadn't seen in like maybe seven or eight years. And I ran into him at a comedy club and he was just showing me photos of clouds on his phone. I was like, then during the conversation, I realized, oh, he cracked.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  But, but aren't you concerned that that kind of thing is now kind of common? Like that, from people who aren't necessarily unwell, people who are just seeing stuff?

• 54:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's fun. I think it's fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's exciting for people to uncover information that the general public is ignorant of.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:36Joe Rogan?

  And so there's, here's the thing about the Laurel Canyon thing. There's enough of the CIA meddling in cultural events that's absolutely true and provable.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:47Joe Rogan?

  And that's MKUltra. And that's what they did with Charles Manson. And that's the book Chaos by Tom O'Neill, which is a brilliant book, which is very well documented in details Jolly West and his influence on the Manson family and how they were influencing these people to try to sabotage the hippie movement.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:03Joe Rogan?

  So the hippie movement was this change in culture where all of a sudden people were rejecting the war movement. They were rejecting, you know, they were free love and they were doing acid and people were freaking out, their kids were just disappearing and following the Grateful Dead around. And they took this guy, Charles Manson, this very charismatic con man. They taught him how to dose people up with acid and influence them and they got them to commit murders.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  But there is evidence for this, right?

• 55:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  You're talking about a book that is researched.

• 55:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Backing up its point.

• 55:34Joe Rogan?

  Right. No, you're being logical and I, you know, you're correct. But what I'm saying is because of that, people go, well, what else?

• 55:43Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 55:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, what? And so then they make these big leaps, like Jimi Hendrix is a CIA creation.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:49Joe Rogan?

  And which, but if you're a logical person, you just listen to Voodoo Child's Slight Return.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:54Joe Rogan?

  And you're like, how?

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:56Joe Rogan?

  How? This is like, if that's true, CIA should get back to work. Make another one of those, bro.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  So I wonder whether this is, this is, I think this is the fallout of the woke movement. This is the divorcing of reality and truth.

• 56:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  The idea that it, that it, that it doesn't matter, not just about what is expedient, but what we want to believe. I've got friends who-

• 56:15Joe Rogan?

  I think we should stop saying it's the fallout of the woke movement. I think we should start saying it's a natural pattern that human beings automatically fall into.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 56:24Joe Rogan?

  In order to support their belief systems and enforce their particular ideology over whatever opposing ideology is.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  But it escalates.

• 56:34Joe Rogan?

  It escalates, but it's because of social media that everything is escalating now.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  But is it just social media? I mean, I think another thing that's a major reason for it. We had COVID. We had all these people telling, all these experts telling us it's a racist conspiracy theory to say that it came from a lab in Wuhan. Now everyone knows that's almost certainly true. We had people in positions of authority lying to us. So it's something about this culture war.

• 56:57Joe Rogan?

  But that's not real culture war. That was using the culture war because they were trying to cover something up.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  But they leapt a race, didn't they? They leapt to identity.

• 57:07Joe Rogan?

  That's because they were using the culture war to cover up their crime.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  So if that's, but in either case, what, what you've got effectively is a legitimation crisis. You've got people in charge. We've been lied to so often. But, but what I don't think you should therefore do, I like, I'm all for being skeptical about people in authority, academics, politicians, journalists, they've all lied. But that firstly doesn't mean that all experts and all journalists and all people have lied because there's been some good ones all the way. But also that doesn't mean that you automatically leap to any conclusion evidence free that jumps before you.

• 57:40Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Without some kind of critical analysis. The same thing that you're criticizing those people for failing at. You're falling into the same trap yourself. I don't mean you.

• 57:47Joe Rogan?

  But you're Andrew Doyle. You're a brilliant guy who writes books and you're really smart. The idea is that you are immune to this stuff because you're intelligent. But the unwashed masses are not.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  I don't think I'm immune at all. I don't, I honestly don't. I wouldn't put myself in that position.

• 58:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're immune to the dumbest shit.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  I'd like to think so.

• 58:08Joe Rogan?

  You are.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  But I, but.

• 58:09Joe Rogan?

  I am.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, but don't you think that all of us in the right circumstances could end up falling for ourselves as well?

• 58:14Joe Rogan?

  But I'm not in those circumstances currently.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  But I like to believe, and maybe it's a naivety on my part, but I like to believe that most people are, you know, have a kind of natural intellectual curiosity, you know, have, if they are, if they stop for a moment and think and, you know, and don't just trust instinct over reason. I think we're all capable of it. I just think we're not all realizing it.

• 58:35Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's not just that. It's like some people are medicated, right? So some people are on a bunch of different medications that dull their senses. And then you've got people that have gotten to wherever they are in life. Maybe they're in their 50s and they're set in their ways and they have no desire to change at all. And so they've been living a dumb life for 50 plus years.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:57Joe Rogan?

  You can't all of a sudden say, hey, Mark, I want you to be logical and introspective and think about this thing and analyze it. And for what it really is, instead of holding on to your ideological beliefs that you've kind of locked yourself into and you identify with and any attacks on those is an attack on you personally. I want you to just, let's look at the facts. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, there's a lot of pressure when it comes to dating, especially in February. But you're putting too much on yourself and on your partner. There's no such thing as a perfect relationship, whether you're on a first date or have been together for years. It's completely normal to go through rough patches and what matters is how you deal with them. Therapy can be a huge help during any stage of your dating life.

• 59:41Joe Rogan?

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• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  But you saying that sounds very persuasive to me, the way you put that. Like, if I were that guy, I'd be like, oh, I've listened to Joe now.

• 1:00:25Joe Rogan?

  No, fucking weirdo, fucking liberals, bullshit, you're fucking, you're just a fucking... They'll come up with some sort of a reason.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  King Charles III is a goat.

• 1:00:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you're controlled opposition, or you're a useful idiot, or they'll put a label on you.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  I've been called, I've been told I get dark money.

• 1:00:45Joe Rogan?

  How do you get any of that?

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Well, I love it. I want it. I want the dark money. It's so dark, I haven't seen any of it. That's how dark it is.

• 1:00:50Joe Rogan?

  What is dark money?

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  I think it's when it's like some rich ideologue who's sort of slipping you money to say the thing. You know what it is? It's that thing of, I don't believe that you disagree with me. I'm too narcissistic to believe that you disagree with me. You must be being paid.

• 1:01:02Joe Rogan?

  Right, you're paid off, bro.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  You're paid off. Trust me, I would love that. If anyone's out there who wants to pay me off, I'll be a mouthpiece. I'm, you know, I haven't had that opportunity. It's pretty low. I'm a bit of a whore, if truth be told. I've got a mortgage, come on. I will say any crazy shit if you want me to.

• 1:01:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's certainly a lot of people that fall into that category too, so people do get nervous about it. I mean, obviously you're joking, but there's a lot of people that will change their opinion.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 1:01:31Joe Rogan?

  If money comes their way.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  But I like to assume people mean what they say, and my logic behind that is even when they don't, you can still dismantle the argument even if it's authentic or not. You know, even if it's authentically believed.

• 1:01:43Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  So, I think that's just the best way to go about it.

• 1:01:47Joe Rogan?

  The best way is debate. That's the best way, or at least conversation.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  But that's what we've lost. I think that hits on it, actually, because...

• 1:01:55Joe Rogan?

  I know, I said debate, but that sounds formal.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  No, I know what you mean. You mean... So recent, can I give you an example of that? My, um, so I went to UC Berkeley, the University of UC Berkeley in California.

• 1:02:08Joe Rogan?

  Did it let you leave?

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Well, almost not, right? So I, what had happened was, you know, Charlie Kirk's tour was planned to go all the way through, and this was the last date, the Berkeley date. And after his assassination, various people went and did the shows because they said, because Turning Point rightly said, "We're not going to give an assassin the veto of our tour." We finished the tour. And Rob Schneider, who I've been working with in Arizona, I've come over here to work with him.

• 1:02:33Joe Rogan?

  The comedian?

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I've been, this is how I escaped from the UK, I should say. So me and Graham Linehan, who you've had on your show, the comedy writer. My comedy writing partner and friend, Martin Gorely, the three of us, we decided that things were so bad in the UK, we'd rather write and do creative stuff in America. Rob Schneider, who I'd met many years ago, he said, "Come on over, we'll set up a production company." We've been working in Arizona on all these various projects. It's so liberating and also, it's the middle of the desert, so I fucking love the heat. And, you know, you go from England to that, it's kind of, it's kind of exciting.

• 1:03:06Joe Rogan?

  Nice contrast.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  So, so we've been able to, you know, we, and look, I don't want to do down the UK or say, but what I will just say is the creative industries there are pretty stagnant. They're not like here, there's so many more ways to...

• 1:03:18Joe Rogan?

  How can you be free? How can you, if you're worried about going to jail for a meme?

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Well, Graham got arrested at the airport by five armed officers.

• 1:03:27Joe Rogan?

  I know, I know. Right after he left this podcast.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Was that it?

• 1:03:30Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  And it was...

• 1:03:31Joe Rogan?

  He came over, did this podcast, went back to visit his family and got arrested.

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  And you know what?

• 1:03:37Joe Rogan?

  Shortly after he did the podcast.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  So when people say to me, "That's not a real problem," that, I mean, Graham had done three tweets. One of them was just, they were all joke tweets, by the way. They were all jokes. And one of them was just, it was something like, "Ladies, if a guy's in your changing room or in your bathroom, scream, make a fuss, call the police, if all else fails, kick him in the balls." And it's obviously a wry way of saying, "Look, the guy's got genitals, the guy's a..." That was why he got arrested. He, on the night he got arrested, he was texting me, he said, "I've just been arrested. I've been taken to the hospital because my blood pressure's..." So high, the police took him to the hospital because they'd raised, because and and you and you say there's no problem in the UK with creativity. He's one of our best comedy writers. He's the most beloved comedy writer. He hasn't been able to work in TV for six years, right?

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Like, he's won all the awards going. And so we just kind of.

• 1:04:26Joe Rogan?

  How can you be creative in that environment? You can't.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  And so we just figured, let's let's get on a raft.

• 1:04:32Joe Rogan?

  Especially someone like you. So if people don't know, I should probably tell everybody, you are Tatiana McGrath.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 1:04:39Joe Rogan?

  Well, here's what's funny about that. Your satirical character who you created many, many years ago, when did you create her?

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Two thousand and eighteen.

• 1:04:47Joe Rogan?

  Okay. When you created her, I had you on the podcast shortly after. We laughed about it. I have seen her quote tweeted with people agreeing with her.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, even now.

• 1:05:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, all the time.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  So with, it's, so I, yeah, if people don't know, it's a character called Titania McGrath. She's a woke just so social justice warrior, right?

• 1:05:09Joe Rogan?

  It's so good. It's fucking great. It's one of my favorite follows.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  But, you know, I I don't do it as often as I used to, you know, I used to do it all the time, but then I wrote two books as her. I did a live show as her. By the way, when we, when I did a live show, we were booked in for a week in the West End in London. And then the head of the theatre found out and scotched it and and actually said, oh, well, I didn't know about this. And the contracts are all signed, absolutely crazy. Anyway, it doesn't matter. But we did the show, but well, it does matter, I suppose. But the point is that, you know, so I did this character.

• 1:05:40Joe Rogan?

  Can't have satire at your theatre? My god.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  Well, the theatre industry in the UK is even worse than comedy if you want to go there. It's really, really bad. But like, I've been in two, in two different theatres in London. I've been had the same experience of standing at the bar with a woman complaining because there's men pissing in her toilet and they're doing nothing about it because all the theatres in London have made it all gender neutral. They've gone completely, completely hardcore. Anyway, that's not the point. But with with Titania, what I find so surprising is. Every now and then, if something annoys me, I'll tweet, or if I think of something, I'll do so. I don't do it anywhere near as often as I used to. But even now, I did a tweet about, you know, when all the people in London were marching about the peace deal in the Middle East? And I did a tweet as her, saying, "I've been marching all day.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  You know, I want a peace deal that was not arranged by Donald Trump. We're never gonna give up this fight." Right? And Ted Cruz retweeted it, saying, "Can this be real?"

• 1:06:36Joe Rogan?

  (laughing)

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Even now...

• 1:06:39Joe Rogan?

  These fucking boomers! He's not even a boomer. He's not even a boomer. I think he's younger than me. How old's Ted Cruz? I think he's younger than me, which is hilarious.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  I had the same with, I did one about...

• 1:06:49Joe Rogan?

  How does he not know? Does he have no friends? How old is fucking Ted Cruz? Fifty-five. Okay. That's crazy. So that dude's three years younger than me? And he doesn't, he doesn't know satire?

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  The anger I got from, I did one the other day, or recently, about the Iran protests.

• 1:07:03Joe Rogan?

  When did, can I just stop?

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:05Joe Rogan?

  I wanna get into this.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:07:06Joe Rogan?

  When did he tweet about this? A year ago. That's hilarious.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:11Joe Rogan?

  You're, that account is...

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  There it is, there it is.

• 1:07:13Joe Rogan?

  How, how many follows does Ted...

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Okay, so this, oh, sorry, this is a...

• 1:07:17Joe Rogan?

  This is possibly real? No, well, obviously, it's not.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  So this was actually after Trump's election. So she said, "I just fired my immigrant housekeeper, because even though I'd educated her about the evils of Donald Trump, she still voted for him. There's no place for racism in my house."

• 1:07:30Joe Rogan?

  (laughing) Click on your account, I wanna see how many followers you have. Okay, 733,000, that's a famous account. Like, it's radical, intersexualist poet, non-white, obviously white, eco-sexual, hilarious, pronouns variable, selfless and brave, buy my books.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  You'd think it was obvious, wouldn't you?

• 1:07:53Joe Rogan?

  Obvious! Well, I mean, maybe he's busy. Maybe he's busy and someone sent him that and he just doesn't know, and, but it's very funny. It's very funny.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  I feel slightly bad about, about those sort of things, but then, on the other hand...

• 1:08:06Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  It does, it does sort of prove the point, that, that the stuff they're really saying can get as, can get as close to the...

• 1:08:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's very close to real.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:15Joe Rogan?

  It's very close to real. And this, it's, it's shifted radically since 2018.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:08:19Joe Rogan?

  I mean, in the eight... Years since you created her, she has become like more real.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:25Joe Rogan?

  It's like when AI is gonna turn her into a real person.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, oh, oh, maybe. I hadn't even thought of that.

• 1:08:31Joe Rogan?

  She's gonna be a real person. It's gonna be a real dangerous Greta Thunberg type character.

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  But don't you worry about that. I mean, like, AI, oh, a good example of that. I was just, I use AI mostly as a search engine. Because what's great about it is you could say, oh, I read an article like ten years ago that said something like this.

• 1:08:46Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  And it'll find it and you'd never find that on Google.

• 1:08:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  And I was trying to find this article. It was from my book, actually. There was a, there was a case in the UK. Where a guy had raped a thirteen year old girl. But because he was, he was Muslim and he'd gone to a madrassa and the judge let him off jail time. Said you were very sexually naive, you didn't understand. The guy was saying, oh, I thought women were nothing and like a lollipop you dropped on the floor. And the judge let him off jail time. And I thought this is quite extreme. And I could, I found it. It came up on ChatGPT and then it deleted. And I said, um, oh, I think you just deleted the information for me. It's in the public domain. Why did you do that? It said, oh, you know, it's fine. It might violate my terms of service. And I said, well, how could it? This is an article that's in the public domain. So it gave me the information again, deleted it again. I said, you keep deleting this, stop it. It said, I definitely won't delete it. And then it did the same again.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  So what it's doing is it's saying, because this is a news story that could be deemed anti-immigrant. Or this is a news story that is politically sensitive. I'm not gonna let you see it.

• 1:09:42Joe Rogan?

  Was this in America you were doing this?

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  UK.

• 1:09:45Joe Rogan?

  Ah, I wonder if you could do it in America. Let's find out. Let's try, well, let's try perplexity. Put that into perplexity, see, I doubt that perplexity would.

• 1:09:53Speaker 03

  I have to find the article he was using and I don't know what article he looked up.

• 1:09:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, why don't you just ask the question that he asked?

• 1:09:59Speaker 03

  Ten years ago.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  So it's, it's, it's a story about a, that would take, that'd take a while to.

• 1:10:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, it, how, I mean. Maybe he didn't do it ten years ago. He did it recently.

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  No, no, it was a story. It's a story from years ago.

• 1:10:12Joe Rogan?

  Right, but you found it with ChatGPT, which is obviously recently.

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  I found a Daily Mail article about it. So it's on public domain, it's there. But it just, it just, it didn't want me to find the fact that it decided wasn't good for me to find.

• 1:10:24Joe Rogan?

  Right, but it showed it to you and then it pulled it back, which is crazy. Like, how does it not know?

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  It showed it and deleted it. It showed it and deleted it four or five times. And I realized, I'm not, I'm not gonna get this information. But then.

• 1:10:36Joe Rogan?

  So when it showed it, how long did it show it for?

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  Like about five seconds. You'd see the text appearing and then it deletes. But I'd seen enough to find it then on Google. So I was able to find it and quote it in my book. So it's there. But it made me think, it's like that thing about when people were asking Alexa, you know, do white lives matter? Or, you know, and it was coming up with this kind of very ideological, and you do wonder with AI and with the computers, you know, if they are created by people who have that bias, I know Grok is very different.

• 1:11:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  But like, for instance, I mean, this is a crazy example. ChatGPT is like an old school mom that wants to make sure that you you're protected, right? I was writing, this sounds really wanky, I'm sorry, but I was writing about the Roman historian Suetonius. And there's a passage in Suetonius where he talks about the Emperor Tiberius, and it's very sexually explicit, but I was quoting it for an article, so I wanted to know what it said. And ChatGPT said, I can't translate the Latin for you, because this is too sexually, you know, problematic. I went onto Grok and it did it straight away, because Grok isn't saying that you are too delicate to read this stuff. And what's really funny about that is, the old dual translations of the old Roman and

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  Greek texts, they're called Lerb editions, you get them from nineteen hundred, they kept, they translated everything except for the rude bits which they kept in Latin.

• 1:11:54Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  So ChatGPT is like the old, you know, patronizing scholars of old who said, this is just for the learned people, you can't learn this stuff.

• 1:12:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, wasn't the worst, the first iteration of Google Gemini, that was the worst cases.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  That turned Nazi soldiers into black people. I don't know how that's a positive message.

• 1:12:16Joe Rogan?

  They showed us photos of German soldiers from World War Two and it was all interracial.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Vikings.

• 1:12:23Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  I don't know if you've been to Scandinavia, diversity not their big thing, or certainly wasn't then. Like, you can't say that about the Vikings. Also, the Vikings came and marauded and raped and set behind the villages, but at least they were diverse. Hey, you know, at least they had a broad range of ethnicities, right?

• 1:12:41Joe Rogan?

  But I mean, we're nearing a time in America where white people are not the majority anymore. So at what point in time does that stop? And we just call people what they are, just people.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  But doesn't it bother you a bit that, the thing about that kind of thing, is this, as I said, this obsession with group identity, which is so of our time.

• 1:13:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  What it now actually means is the revision of history. If you're going to revise history and say, oh, actually, you know, you've seen all these sort of period dramas set in England, there was a black Anne Boleyn, as though Henry the Eighth would have married a black woman, no he wouldn't, you know.

• 1:13:14Joe Rogan?

  What if she was hot?

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  She was a very attractive woman. Hey, I'm not mocking her or knocking her.

• 1:13:19Joe Rogan?

  But back then.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  What I'm saying is, you can do anything with colorblind casting. Colorblind casting has never really particularly bothered me. But it's when you are in a, if you're playing hyper realism.

• 1:13:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  If you're playing verisimilitude, you want people to buy into the reality of it. And you're suddenly populating Edwardian England or pre Edwardian England as an ethnically diverse place, which it wasn't. I'm not saying black people weren't there, but they were very, very, a very small minority.

• 1:13:40Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that a problem in the New Odyssey?

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  Helen of Troy is black.

• 1:13:45Joe Rogan?

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• 1:14:31Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Well, I say that, I just saw it online, so I might be being tricked by someone making something up. You know, a caveat that, I think Helen of Troy is black in the New Odyssey.

• 1:15:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, let's find out.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Can we check that one? But you, all right, if it's true, I'll tell you why I think that's ridiculous.

• 1:15:24Joe Rogan?

  How far do we have to swing the pendulum until roots is redone with white people?

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  Can you imagine? Or an all-black Schindler's List?

• 1:15:33Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Can you imagine?

• 1:15:34Joe Rogan?

  Helen of Troy to be portrayed by a black actress in a new Odyssey movie.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  And look, I'm sure she's very talented, I'm not knocking her. But the thing about the Greek, the thing about Helen of Troy, who probably didn't exist, I mean, even the Greeks knew she probably didn't even exist. She's a myth, she's a, she's the epitome of Greek beauty. She's like the, she's, she's described all the time in the ancient texts as fair and blonde. And, and they're, they're reaching for an ideal of beauty. That's why they went to war because of this woman. So they wouldn't choose what they used to call an Ethiop. The Greeks had a word for it, the black African people. They wouldn't choose a, an icon of cultural beauty from a different culture. They wouldn't have done that, you know? It's all very well saying Greeks and Mediterranean people and, you know, would have been, wouldn't have been pure white. But Helen of Troy is a very specific, and it's actually quite important to the, to the plot.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  And, and again, if you're doing a, look, for instance, when they did the all-black Wizard of Oz, The Wiz, I imagine that in the late 60s would have been quite radical and fun and wow, I can't believe they did that. That's brilliant. But doing it now, it's really boring because everyone is doing it. It's so benign, it's basically saying group identity is everything and you, you people can't be racist. And so therefore we're gonna do this. But it sometimes throws you out of the, actually, I'll tell you the worst example. Did you ever see Darkest Hour, the Winston Churchill film?

• 1:16:49Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  So you know, obviously he took on Parliament, he said, we're not going to appease Hitler. Um, there's a scene in the film, Gary Oldman plays him. He goes down into the tube, the underground, and he's wrestling with his conscience. And there's loads of black people on the tube, there's white people too, but there's loads of black people. And they, the public convince him, no, you, you need to stand up for Hitler. Now, we know that Churchill wasn't, was a bit of a racist, didn't really like the, you know, fine, he was of his time. I'm not saying anything more than that, he was of his time. But that, it was so unreal. It was so unreal, it was so, it was almost like the filmmakers were, were saying racism's never been a problem in the UK. Well, actually it has. Like, and I kind of think this is, I, I kind of think this is, although it's ostensibly progressive, I think it does the reverse. I think it says, we never had a problem with race, we were all wonderful, kumbaya.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  No, we weren't. And actually, the abolitionists, the, the Thomas Henry Huxleys of the world, the people who had to fight for racial equality and parity, they had something to fight against, misrepresenting stuff in the arts. And then beyond, I'm sorry, I'm ranting now because it really bothered me. But beyond that, it throws you out of it in a way that you suddenly think, I'm no longer watching a film, I'm watching a sermon. Oh, so this happened to me last week. Have you seen the Netflix series Ripley about the talented Mr. Ripley?

• 1:18:03Joe Rogan?

  No, I have not.

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  Right. Now, you remember there used to be that film with Matt Damon years ago? It's the same story, same novel, an old Patricia Highsmith novel. One of the main male characters in that TV series is a brilliant, like Andrew Scott is in it. Performances are brilliant. They play it hyper realistically. It's all black and white. It looks beautiful. On the Amalfi Coast, it's wonderful. Everything's working brilliantly. And I was thinking, this is great. I'm not being preached at. This is great. Then a major male character turns up, played by a woman who calls herself non-binary, and, and not only are we meant to believe that that's a man, the characters don't notice that it's a woman in a man's, in man's clothes. So we're meant to believe that these, these characters don't even, like, not one, Ripley doesn't say, why is, why is she wearing a, why is she wearing a suit?

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  This is set in the 60s, by the way. So I think if they wanted to change the novel and create a kind of, you know, like one of those Butch Dykes of the day who used to go for sort of like, or-

• 1:19:00Joe Rogan?

  Dressed like Ellen.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, or, yeah, or the androgynous type, like those, those people have always existed. Why not change the character to make it a female character who, who likes, likes looking like a man? Why not do that? Why tell us, you know, this is a man. You have to believe it's a man. Do you see what I mean? Like, it throws you out of the-

• 1:19:17Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  I no longer believe in this. I had to stop watching it because I no longer believed in it.

• 1:19:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think the problem, the real problem with trying to shove that down people's throats is it creates the opposite reaction.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:19:30Joe Rogan?

  It creates homophobia, transphobia, and racism. Because like, it doesn't create it, but it makes them feel like they have a point.

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  Well, you've seen recently that the polls regarding gay rights in the US seem to be going down. Tumble, support for gay rights, support for gay marriage. We've had, I think, a number of states trying to overturn the, the gay marriage legislation. And the reason for all of that, I think, is because being gay has been tied to this LGBTQIA identity obsessed movement that has also involved the medicalization of kids, sterilization of kids, twerking in front of- Children.

• 1:20:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:08Speaker 01

  All of that stuff. And now people are saying, this is because you gave us gay marriage. This is because you let the gays marry. And because of that, you've allowed all this other stuff. You've opened this box and everything else has tumbled out. And that's not true. That's not true because the fundamental point about the, about the belief in gender identity is it is fundamentally anti-gay as a principle.

• 1:20:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  Right, because what it says is, you know, I know I'm telling you something you already know, but like gay, gay rights was predicated on the idea that there's a minority of people in every society who are attracted innately to their own biological sex. If you say biological sex doesn't matter, and actually you've, you're attracted to a kind of gendered soul, you're attracted to an essence, you're attracted to how someone identifies. Well, firstly, you don't know gay people if you think that's the case. They're not, they're not attracted to how you see yourself.

• 1:20:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  They know, gay men, I don't want to be crude, know what a penis is, right?

• 1:20:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  And, and they know how to sniff one out. Now, I, and I think this idea, this idea that they're attracted to the way that you perceive yourself.

• 1:21:06Joe Rogan?

  Nonsense.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  And not only that, then you get, you know, like in Australia at the moment, lesbians are not allowed to gather legally if there's a man who says he's a lesbian and wants to join them. That is against the law in Australia now, so you can't do that.

• 1:21:18Joe Rogan?

  Wait, wait, what do you mean?

• 1:21:19Speaker 01

  So, the Australian Human Rights Commission ruled that if you are, if you have an all female event, right, so like a lesbian gathering, maybe something like that, you have to include men who identify as women.

• 1:21:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  Because otherwise you are discriminated.

• 1:21:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  There was a woman who I interviewed on a, I had a show in the UK on GB News up until recently, and I interviewed this woman called Sal Grover, and she's an Australian woman, used to write for Hollywood, I think. She created a woman's app, woman's only app, and this was in the wake of Me Too, you know, so there's all that going on. And she wanted to create a space for women. And a guy called Roxanne Tickle, right, they always have these kind of stripper names.

• 1:21:57Joe Rogan?

  Is that a real name?

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  Roxanne Tickle wanted to get on the app, which was called Giggle. So, by the way, this court case is called Giggle versus Tickle. I'm not kidding.

• 1:22:04Joe Rogan?

  Boy.

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  And he said, I, he got on the app, she kicked him off because it's a, it's a bloke in address, and he sued and won. And in the court case, the judge actually said, sex is changeable. Well, it's not, no matter what a guy in a wig says.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  But she's now appealing and going through all the awful, all this stuff.

• 1:22:28Joe Rogan?

  Makes her life hell and then discourages anybody else in the future from ever contesting anything like that.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  And, you know, not only that. I mean, we've just had the other day, was it yesterday? Did you see the, the girl who was, used to identify as trans, a girl called Fox Varian? Has just won two million in a lawsuit.

• 1:22:46Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  That's big because.

• 1:22:47Joe Rogan?

  She was sixteen years old and they chopped her breasts off.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:50Joe Rogan?

  Which is fucking horrifying.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  It's the tip of the iceberg though.

• 1:22:54Joe Rogan?

  Especially if you, you have children, you, you realize like they change their, the way they think about things year to year. And if you, children are so malleable. It's like one of the delicate dances of being a parent is that you have to love them. But you don't want to steer them in any direction. You want to let them be their own person.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:18Joe Rogan?

  And, you know, it's like I tried to expose my children to a bunch of different things and find out what they enjoy. And if you do that, you find out that they're all different. They all like different stuff. They just gravitate towards different things. And if you are a domineering, overbearing, mentally ill parent, you can convince your child almost anything. Almost anything. I mean, this is how you get suicide bombers.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:46Joe Rogan?

  This is what it is because they're children. This is why you don't get fifty five year old union guys who become suicide bombers. They're like, what?

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  And of course, you know.

• 1:23:55Joe Rogan?

  I get seventy two virgins?

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:56Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:57Joe Rogan?

  Like, it's not gonna work. But you can get young, impressionable children and you can convince them of almost anything, like convincing them that they're actually a woman in a man's body and don't you want to be a woman and let's get you on hormone blockers. Okay, mom?

• 1:24:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:11Joe Rogan?

  And then all of a sudden you're ruining this child's life.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  But also, I mean, there will be kids who are struggling with how they see themselves in the world. There's girls in particular who, you know, they're developing into women and they don't like the sexual attention they're getting. They'd love to.

• 1:24:23Joe Rogan?

  Abigail Schreier's book.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:25Joe Rogan?

  Especially autistic girls.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  So what, well, that's another point. This is the other, this is the other reason why I think the movement is essentially anti-gay. Because you know the Tavistock Pediatric Clinic in London, which was an NHS gender clinic, which has been closed as a result of the CAS review, this report into pediatric gender care. They found, there's a book by Hannah Barnes called Time to Think, which found that between eighty and ninety percent of all adolescents referred to that clinic were same-sex attracted. So they were either gay or lesbian or bisexual. Now, that means you've effectively got gay conversion therapy going on, on the NHS. And so, you know, I had, you know, I'm friends with a couple of lesbians who run the LGB Alliance in London, they have an annual conference for gay rights, and they're talking about gay rights, you know.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  These young, non-binary identified people broke in, unleashed locusts and crickets and insects, a plague of fucking locusts into a gay rights conference. Isn't that the sort of thing neo-Nazis used to do?

• 1:25:25Joe Rogan?

  Right, it's insane.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  Right, so, I mean, I, you know, I think you need to have sympathy with people and whatever they're going through, but don't tell a child, if a child tells you, "I think I'm in the wrong body", don't say, "Yes", say, "That's not possible, human beings can't change sex", but let's explore psychotherapeutically what needs to happen.

• 1:25:42Joe Rogan?

  Let's look at Los Angeles, which is, in my opinion, one of the most mentally ill spots in this country. It's a very weird place.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  That's why you left?

• 1:25:50Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, I left for a bunch of reasons. Mostly, I really left because they were telling us we can't do comedy.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, well, that'll do it.

• 1:25:57Joe Rogan?

  They closed down the comedy clubs and Texas was open, so the primary reason. And also restaurants and everything, I just knew where it was going. But the point is, like, Los Angeles is a very mentally ill place. Like, if you just looked at, like, the, just the sheer numbers of people that are medicated and fucked up, like, if that's the place that's dictating the tone for the rest of the world, that's dangerous. Because these are a lot of people that just desperately want attention, they desperately want to get accepted, they have to go through the audition process, so they have to change who they are, to talk to the producers, to try to form themselves into something to be accepted. There's a disproportionate amount of trans kids that are involved in Hollywood families.

• 1:26:41Joe Rogan?

  It's largely disproportionate.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:26:44Joe Rogan?

  Some of them have two trans kids, three trans kids, it's like, what the fuck is going on here? This is not normal. This is not, this is not no influence whatsoever. This is... You're using that child as a virtue flag.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:58Joe Rogan?

  You're flying that child as a trans flag in the front of your porch. I have a trans kid.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  But don't you think that like a lawsuit like this?

• 1:27:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  That's gonna change things, because no one's gonna ensure that kind of procedure anymore. No one's gonna, like, that's a surgeon and a psychotherapist who are now lumbered with a $2 million bill.

• 1:27:15Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:27:16Speaker 01

  For their negligence.

• 1:27:17Joe Rogan?

  It's gonna open up the floodgates for all these other lawyers to start pouncing on all these other cases.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I mean.

• 1:27:21Joe Rogan?

  The thing about the, the horrible thing about these cases is not just that these children have, have their lives ruined by these surgeries and have been sterilized. And it's also that they've been attacked so ruthlessly. You mean, you're talking about children that have made a mistake, or someone coerced them into making this mistake, that's changed their body for the rest of their life, and they're getting attacked online.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:46Joe Rogan?

  Like, imagine being a fragile child already, who's willing to go through this procedure, can't believe they did it, now they don't have breasts anymore, their voice is deep forever, they're all fucked up.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:57Joe Rogan?

  And then people are screaming at them online.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:00Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  But, you know, this is how the, the satanic child abuse panic of the 80s.

• 1:28:05Joe Rogan?

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  This came to an end because of lawsuits. When, you know, when they started, when they realized that these psychotherapists have been using these leading questions, effectively telling them, you've repressed the memory. You know, there was that book, The Courage to Heal, where it said, if you think you might have been abused, you probably were. Like, such a reckless thing to say.

• 1:28:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  And, and all these people accused, you know, carers, parents, none of it was true. And, but when they started suing the, the psychotherapists, it all collapsed.

• 1:28:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  And I wonder whether hysteria can collapse if you actually money talks.

• 1:28:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's already shifted in this general direction because of Elon buying Twitter. When Elon bought Twitter, the amount of trans identified kids started to drop off. The amount of non-binary identified kids started to drop off.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:54Joe Rogan?

  And that, I think, is a direct result of people being able to say what they really think. Because in the past, like, my friend Meghan Murphy, she was banned off of Twitter until Elon bought it, because she said a man is Is never a woman.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:06Joe Rogan?

  It's all she said.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:07Joe Rogan?

  A man is never a woman. She was arguing with people about biological males who identify as women, being able to get into women's spaces. And she said, a man is never a woman. Banned forever.

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:16Joe Rogan?

  So no one wanted to talk about this. See, there was no real discourse. And if there's no real discourse, then you can push a goofy ideology pretty fucking far. But as soon as people jump on board and start posting funny memes and Elon says it's open season, do whatever you want.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:32Joe Rogan?

  And he calls it the woke mind virus. And everybody's like piling in. Well, then you have discourse. And then anything that's absurd immediately gets shot down because people say, no, this doesn't make any sense. This is crazy.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  It comes back to what you said. You said about debate. You said about discourse. You said about if you, unless you, I mean, I just saw today, just on, you know, obviously on Twitter, because I'm always on it. But I saw John Lithgow, you know, the actor.

• 1:29:55Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  Brilliant actor, who plays Dumbledore in the new Harry Potter thing, saying that J K Rowling's views are inexplicable. Inexplicable. It means you haven't read them. Like J K Rowling.

• 1:30:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  Is for women's rights. And she recognizes that women's rights depend on the recognition of biological sex for the preservation of single sex spaces. It's as simple as that. All he has to do is read the essay she wrote on her blog like about eight years ago. He can't even, he's not even sufficiently intellectually curious to do that. And he goes out and says it's inexplicable. Women's rights and gay rights are inexplicable? Really? Or are you just not having the conversation? You're just shutting yourself up and saying, my friends have said she's evil. That's enough.

• 1:30:34Joe Rogan?

  Criticized hard enough, but would be criticized if he supported J K Rowling's. If he supported J K Rowling's, he would be attacked.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  So it's a calculation, you're saying?

• 1:30:43Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 1:30:44Joe Rogan?

  It's the same thing we're talking about with Hollywood being mentally ill. It's the same thing where you have to shape your opinions based on how you'll be accepted by the group. It's the most group think place I've ever been in my life. It's almost universally left leaning.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  But isn't that the problem in comedy, like with the UK? So many people who would otherwise be innovative, subversive comics, they've got nowhere to go.

• 1:31:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  So they just tailor their material.

• 1:31:08Joe Rogan?

  Come to Austin, baby.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  They come to Austin like I did, right? That's it. They come to, they come to, I, I, and I, I get. So sick of it, because I know in America it's much better. But in the UK, all of like my old friends from the comedy circuit who tell me, no one's self censoring. You can say what you want. No, I'm like, are you kidding? Like, the list of people I know who have had shows cancelled, taken off, because they caused offence. This week, Leo Curse, friend of mine, had one of his shows on his tour just deleted because some activists complained to the venue. Right?

• 1:31:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  So it's happening all the time, and they're ignoring this Himalayan mountain of evidence. And they're saying it's not a thing. But of course, people are self censoring.

• 1:31:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's even happening here.

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 1:31:48Joe Rogan?

  Michael Rappaport got his shows, he got his shows cancelled from Cap City Comedy Club.

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  Did he?

• 1:31:55Joe Rogan?

  Which is our other comedy club in town, which is a great club, owned by helium.

• 1:31:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:31:59Joe Rogan?

  But they were saying that he's racist, because Michael Rappaport is very pro-Israel.

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:04Joe Rogan?

  And apparently...

• 1:32:05Speaker 01

  Why does that make you racist?

• 1:32:06Joe Rogan?

  I don't know what he said, so I don't want to speak out of turn.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:10Joe Rogan?

  I don't know what exactly he said.

• 1:32:11Speaker 03

  I'll make a small correction, I think.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:32:13Speaker 03

  I don't think that she has been, sorry, back to the Odyssey thing.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:18Speaker 03

  She has been cast in the movie, but only Twitter rumours have said what her position in the movie is, and then everybody has ran with it.

• 1:32:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh, interesting. So she could be...

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  She could be anything.

• 1:32:30Joe Rogan?

  Someone else, a different character.

• 1:32:33Speaker 03

  All the articles I found online said it was like social media confirmation, and then people were just running.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Well, there we go.

• 1:32:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Well, isn't that what I said?

• 1:32:40Joe Rogan?

  What is that article that you just clicked?

• 1:32:41Speaker 03

  This is the one I showed earlier.

• 1:32:42Joe Rogan?

  But what is it from?

• 1:32:43Speaker 03

  It starts off with the Hungarian Conservative.

• 1:32:46Speaker 01

  That's a niche, that's a niche.

• 1:32:48Joe Rogan?

  Jamie, how dare you let that sneak by? That you didn't notice it was a Hungarian Conservative?

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Are you being paid by the Hungarian Conservative?

• 1:32:55Speaker 03

  It's the top thing that popped up.

• 1:32:57Joe Rogan?

  Meanwhile, it's probably a fucking troll farm in Pakistan that's creating that, or it's probably in China or something.

• 1:33:04Speaker 03

  All I Googled was Helena Troy Odyssey movie, and it's the very first article.

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  Good for the Hungarian Conservative, getting out, coming out on top of the Google search. That's pretty good.

• 1:33:11Joe Rogan?

  That's so funny.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  But did I not say, I'm not sure about this, it's a Twitter rumour?

• 1:33:15Joe Rogan?

  But look, Elon Musk bought into it. Elon Musk says Christopher Nolan has lost his integrity.

• 1:33:21Speaker 01

  Oh, Elon. So there we go.

• 1:33:22Joe Rogan?

  The dude's too busy building rockets to pay attention to what he tweets.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  But this proves the point, like, let's not... Oh, yeah, he's gonna take us to the moon again, so, you know, that's all right.

• 1:33:32Joe Rogan?

  No, he's not.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  Isn't he?

• 1:33:33Joe Rogan?

  No, Artemis is NASA.

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  I thought he was working with NASA.

• 1:33:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, is he working with NASA with Artemis?

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  Again, someone said it online and I just bought it, I just believe it.

• 1:33:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow, they probably can't get there without him. He's probably like, "Oh, I'll show you some things."

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  But that's, okay, so that is a perfect example, because I am always now, even when I mentioned that earlier, I was cautious, wasn't I? Because I know, I've fallen for this so many times, I now double-check and triple-check everything, and I wish I didn't have to, but you do have to, because even the mainstream media lie about stuff, and then Twitter rumours go absolutely mad.

• 1:34:06Joe Rogan?

  But it's important when you're talking about a historical film.

• 1:34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:10Joe Rogan?

  Like, it's gotta kinda, you just can't do that, it doesn't make any sense.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  Well, you sort of can, I think an artist should be able to do what they want, and I think if you wanna, like, they do it with Shakespeare all the time, sorry to go back to Shakespeare, but you rarely go and see a Shakespeare play today that hasn't been filtered through the prism of identity politics and changed.

• 1:34:27Joe Rogan?

  Right, but that's not the same, that's not the same as historical figures.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  Well, he wrote histories, he wrote about kings, Henry VII, Henry V, Henry VIII.

• 1:34:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it's fiction, right? Like, the thing about The Odyssey is...

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  That's definitely fiction.

• 1:34:45Joe Rogan?

  It is sort of, but, you know, they didn't think Troy existed, and then they found that it does.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:51Joe Rogan?

  It's a real place.

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  It's based on myth, and, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

• 1:34:55Joe Rogan?

  But you remember, like, they thought that Troy was a completely mythological creation.

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  So it's an actual, they have evidence that it was a place.

• 1:35:04Joe Rogan?

  Yes, you didn't know that?

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:35:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they found it, when did they find Troy? It was in the 20th century.

• 1:35:40Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  But there wouldn't have been sirens, and there wouldn't have been cyclopses, and there wouldn't have, you know what I mean?

• 1:36:54Joe Rogan?

  Oh, no.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  Oh, Joe.

• 1:36:56Joe Rogan?

  No, cyclopses, they think were actually elephant skulls. That's what they think that was.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  Right, okay.

• 1:37:01Joe Rogan?

  Do you ever seen an elephant skull?

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  I have never seen an elephant skull.

• 1:37:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know, where the trunk is, is an enormous hole, and they thought that that was an eyeball. So they would find these giant skulls with, that looked like, you know, they didn't know what the fuck it was.

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:14Joe Rogan?

  And like, oh my god, cyclopses are real.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  Fair enough. I mean, I, so I guess...

• 1:37:17Joe Rogan?

  So here it is. Evidence, legend, and supertro is a real place began to emerge in the 1870s. Henrik Schliemann discovered large-scale excavations at the Hisarolik in northwestern Turkey in 1870. So when did they first start excavating?

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  So where is it? It's in Turkey.

• 1:37:38Joe Rogan?

  It's in Turkey, yeah. Which is, which is a lot of the proponents of a... A revising of the beginning of civilization are now pointing to Turkey.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:49Joe Rogan?

  As opposed to like Iraq and.

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  The Greeks are everywhere, you know, so the Mesopotamians and the, I mean, that, that doesn't surprise me. I mean, I, I think the, the point I was making about Helen of Troy is that even if it's not real, even if it's not history, the myth of Helen of Troy means something quite significant within that story.

• 1:38:06Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  So if you subvert that.

• 1:38:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  The, the, the fundamental aspects of the story itself doesn't work.

• 1:38:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  And you can't buy into the myth.

• 1:38:14Joe Rogan?

  It's like if you turn the Elephant Man into a handsome fellow with a six pack.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  Exactly that.

• 1:38:18Joe Rogan?

  And so.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  Don't give them ideas. Don't give them ideas. They'll do that.

• 1:38:21Joe Rogan?

  Can you show me a photograph of an elephant skull? It's really kooky, but you see an elephant skull and you're like, oh.

• 1:38:27Speaker 01

  That's why they saw it.

• 1:38:28Joe Rogan?

  I could totally see you falling for that.

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:30Joe Rogan?

  You, you look at it and you go, what the fuck is that thing? Like, look at an elephant skull. Isn't it nutty?

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  Oh, completely. Yes.

• 1:38:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  And it's gonna be a big old beast.

• 1:38:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  So you're gonna think it's a.

• 1:38:39Joe Rogan?

  Big giant thing with tusks coming out of its mouth. Like, look, look with the, look at the actual cyclops on the left. Isn't that crazy?

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:47Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:38:48Speaker 01

  No, it makes sense. Makes complete sense.

• 1:38:50Joe Rogan?

  Complete sense.

• 1:38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. You found that. You're like, oh my God, cyclopses are real. You would think, oh my God, these monsters. Isn't that funny? What a weird shaped skull. So strange. You would never think the eyeballs would be down there by the cheekbones. That's what's weird about them.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  I have to say Elephant Anatomy is something I'm not, I haven't brushed up on that.

• 1:39:09Joe Rogan?

  Show the photo again. Look at that photo where the eyeballs are. The eyeballs are where the cheekbones are. See? See the little circular holes where the cheeks are? Now, when you see an elephant in the flesh, like, show me a photograph of an elephant.

• 1:39:24Joe Rogan?

  Just an elephant.

• 1:39:27Joe Rogan?

  So.

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  Oh, so.

• 1:39:28Joe Rogan?

  See where their eyeballs are? Isn't that crazy?

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  That's not how you think of them, is it?

• 1:39:31Joe Rogan?

  No, well, they're so strange. Like, give me that, the second one on the left. Yeah, look at that. Click on that. What a wild animal.

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  They're amazing.

• 1:39:39Joe Rogan?

  Have you never seen one of those before? You'd be like, whoa.

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  In a zoo.

• 1:39:43Joe Rogan?

  Crazy. I rode one in Thailand.

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:39:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't recommend it. I don't think I should ride them. My whole family wanted to do it. I didn't want to do it. I felt like it's exploiting them. But they're very.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  They're gentle, aren't they? They're pleasant creatures.

• 1:39:56Joe Rogan?

  It's a whole process. So one of the things you do when you go to Thailand is you take care of them first. Before you, you don't just hop on them, you feed them.

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:40:05Joe Rogan?

  So you give them a bunch of sugarcane and you pet them and they teach you to like, so that the animal understands you have a gentle spirit.

• 1:40:12Speaker 01

  It's intelligence, right? It's because they're smart.

• 1:40:14Joe Rogan?

  They're very smart. Also, they'll fucking kill you.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  Oh, they are scary beasts.

• 1:40:18Joe Rogan?

  Stomp you to death.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  But they're not like the hippo. The hippo will kill you.

• 1:40:21Joe Rogan?

  You cannot do that with a hippo.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  So, and a believe, the reason why hippos are so dangerous, we think they're really cute and fat, but they are fucking dangerous and they can run fast and they can tear you apart. And they will. The key difference, I believe, is the intelligent thing. Elephants are really smart and hippos are really stupid.

• 1:40:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And you can also become friends with an elephant.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:40:40Joe Rogan?

  Like you can actually take care of an elephant and be kind to an elephant and that elephant will like be gentle. Yeah, they come up to you and so you feed them sugarcane and you talk to them, you say, hey buddy, how are you? And you pet them and you wash them, you wash them. You do all kinds of different things with them. You brush them so it feels good for them.

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  You're gonna have an elephant soon, aren't you?

• 1:40:59Joe Rogan?

  No, I would never have an elephant. I'd be friends with an elephant, but he'd have to be wild. Like, I just don't agree with any of that.

• 1:41:05Speaker 01

  What, having them in zoos and things?

• 1:41:06Joe Rogan?

  No, I hate it. I think, I think if you're gonna have animals, you should have a gigantic area that is a true ecosystem that they exist in naturally.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:17Joe Rogan?

  And then people can maybe venture into that ecosystem and explore it.

• 1:41:21Speaker 01

  I felt that. I was at the zoo recently in Arizona and I felt that.

• 1:41:23Joe Rogan?

  So depressing.

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  There was one jaguar pacing obsessive. I just felt this, it was just like, it's like going to, you know, like in the Elizabethan era, they used to go to Bedlam to watch the people who were mad. As an entertainment thing. It felt a little bit like we were doing that.

• 1:41:36Joe Rogan?

  I have far too much appreciation for the wild.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:40Joe Rogan?

  You know, I have animals that are contained at my house, but they have been watered down by selective breeding to the point where they can't even, like, I have a King Charles Spaniel. He's this tiny little fella. Like, he's incapable of doing anything.

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:54Joe Rogan?

  Like, he's just a little cutie pie.

• 1:41:55Speaker 01

  You can't unleash him into the wild.

• 1:41:57Joe Rogan?

  Right. And I have a golden retriever who thinks everybody's his best friend. Like.

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  Did you see the guy who kept a hippo from birth and then it ate it?

• 1:42:03Joe Rogan?

  And then it killed him.

• 1:42:04Speaker 01

  It ate him.

• 1:42:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  So, you know, like.

• 1:42:06Joe Rogan?

  Got annoyed.

• 1:42:07Speaker 01

  Understand that you're dealing with a creature that doesn't see the world that you do, you know?

• 1:42:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a lot of animals that you can breed up until you can rather have them in your home, chimps famously.

• 1:42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:19Joe Rogan?

  Up to a certain point and then they decide I want to rip your face off. I don't like you anymore.

• 1:42:23Speaker 01

  I'm sure if cats were as big as we are, they'd probably do the same.

• 1:42:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, they would just eat you.

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  They would.

• 1:42:28Joe Rogan?

  They would kill you one hundred percent. The only reason why we have a relationship with cats is because they're too small to eat us.

• 1:42:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:34Joe Rogan?

  That's it.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  Cats are great because they're convenient. They do what they want.

• 1:42:36Joe Rogan?

  They're sweet.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  They're sweet.

• 1:42:37Joe Rogan?

  I love cats, but I mean, you can't have a fucking giant one, but you can if you take care of them from the time that they're cubs.

• 1:42:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:45Joe Rogan?

  And most of the time they don't kill you.

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:47Joe Rogan?

  But then you get a little Siegfried and Roy action and it's just decides for whatever reason, I want to drag that dude away with his neck.

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  Yep. But you know, these sorts of pleasures, you know, life with animals and this sort of thing is going to matter more and more to us, I think. When the robots take over.

• 1:43:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  And the.

• 1:43:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, we might have to live with them.

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  What with?

• 1:43:05Joe Rogan?

  We might be wild and the robots might take over the cities. We might be forced to be nomadic tribes again.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  I think they might see us.

• 1:43:11Joe Rogan?

  No impact whatsoever on the environment. You can only live as assistance lifestyle as a hunter gatherer with primitive tools. When the robots would no longer allow you, you can hunt, but you have to make your own bows and arrows. We're like, what? I can't possibly do that.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  So they're going to see us as pets, is what you think. They're going to see.

• 1:43:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they're going to treat us the way I want to treat elephants. So I want elephants to exist in a contained ecosystem where they they live naturally.

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:37Joe Rogan?

  And they're going to say, you can't have cars anymore. You can't have any of these things.

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  Well, that's a good point though, isn't it? So all the stuff I've been reading at the moment about AI is saying that AI won't wipe us out because it will see us in the way we see animals and way we see pets is that. Well, we think you're sweet and stupid, but we like having you around. We'll tolerate you. Is that the way it's going to go?

• 1:43:55Joe Rogan?

  I think we're going to be forced to integrate.

• 1:43:58Speaker 01

  In what way?

• 1:43:58Joe Rogan?

  Integrate technologically. Like I think we already are, like Elon's famously made the point that you're already a cyborg. You have your phone that you just carry around with you everywhere. And then with Neuralink, it'll be inside your body and then whatever.

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  I wouldn't. I'm not letting that happen.

• 1:44:13Joe Rogan?

  You won't in the beginning. The first iterations, a lot of people won't, but if it makes your life measurably better, and it's a simple procedure that's non-invasive, you know, it's like a simple thing that they plug in to your, the back of your head.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  I'd be like a cyborg warrior. Is that what you're saying?

• 1:44:30Joe Rogan?

  Well, you would probably be connected to artificial intelligence and it would greatly enhance your cognitive function.

• 1:44:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:44:38Joe Rogan?

  And greatly enhance your access to information. It would be instantaneous. You would no longer have to read. You would just have all the information. It would just completely change the way you store information. Cause you would probably have some sort of an external hard drive that connects to you. It would be something where your memory is no longer fallible, but it's now infallible.

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:44:59Joe Rogan?

  It's gonna be a perfect 4K memory or 8K memory. You're gonna be able to rewind. I mean, wasn't there an episode of Dark Mirror? Where they rewind their memories?

• 1:45:07Speaker 03

  Interesting twist in this AI space. Remember you sent me that bot thing that was going around this week?

• 1:45:13Speaker 01

  Oh, did you see this week?

• 1:45:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what we're talking about.

• 1:45:15Speaker 03

  So this is a new twist on it. Uh, I think if this is real, cause a grain of salt could be bullshit. I'll just say that.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  Like the Odyssey thing?

• 1:45:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, but if this is real, these bots have made a website where they, where the other bots can rent a human to do tasks that the bots cannot physically do.

• 1:45:32Speaker 01

  Well, that's slavery.

• 1:45:33Joe Rogan?

  No, renting. It's, it's like jobs.

• 1:45:35Speaker 03

  It's like a task rabbit.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  You're renting a human being?

• 1:45:38Speaker 03

  A human has put themselves on this website.

• 1:45:40Speaker 01

  Oh, humans put themselves on it?

• 1:45:41Speaker 03

  For abilities to do whatever they want and the-

• 1:45:43Joe Rogan?

  It's like gig economy.

• 1:45:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, get paid your way, robot bosses.

• 1:45:47Speaker 01

  Is this the thing where-

• 1:45:48Speaker 03

  Here's the stuff that they need done.

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  The robots are inventing their own language that we can't read. It's on this website, right?

• 1:45:53Joe Rogan?

  Meat space tasks.

• 1:45:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't, that's again, whether or not someone could have made this site to try to go viral, I'll just go with a grain of salt with that.

• 1:46:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:02Speaker 03

  But they might not have in the bots.

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  Meat space.

• 1:46:04Joe Rogan?

  Rent a human.ai is fun. That's fun. Well, you know, the, so the other thing is real though, right? The AI chatroom where these AI agents have joined and now it's-

• 1:46:17Speaker 03

  Yes and no.

• 1:46:18Joe Rogan?

  Yes and no?

• 1:46:19Speaker 03

  What you mean? Some of it, they are creating a space, but I've already seen places where people are taking advantage of it for viral, viral reasons. For instance, uh, let's just assume it's real. There was a, like a polymarket, um, bet that some, uh, shit, what was it? Someone, one of these bots would sue. And so someone actually just like went ahead and filed a lawsuit on behalf of their bot and made it look like the bot did the thing.

• 1:46:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so they can win the polymarket bet?

• 1:46:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:46:45Joe Rogan?

  How regulated is that polymarket stuff? Cause it seems like you could get away with a lot.

• 1:46:50Speaker 03

  It depends how much money is available. As far as I know, it's just like if I put up 20 bucks for a bet now, there's only 20 bucks in the market.

• 1:46:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:58Speaker 03

  That's, that's all that exists and more people have to back it up to make more money involved.

• 1:47:02Joe Rogan?

  Right, but if you have something where you have inside knowledge of it, is there any regulation?

• 1:47:08Speaker 03

  There's supposed to be, like, there's supposed to be rules on the bets. If I create one of those rules, you're supposed, I think there's like caveats, you can't have knowledge of it. And or like that can cancel the bet, or I think if they find out later, I don't, I don't know.

• 1:47:19Joe Rogan?

  Do you go to jail? Like, what happens?

• 1:47:21Speaker 03

  I don't know, jail, you probably just have to lose back the bet, or you just probably go to like a civil lawsuit or something like that. I don't know about jail. I don't know if it's in.

• 1:47:28Joe Rogan?

  You know, the UFC is plagued with this issue. They actually canceled a fight recently because there was suspicious betting. And so there's been one fight, some, so here's the story.

• 1:47:40Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:47:40Joe Rogan?

  One guy apparently was injured and his teammates knew he was injured and so everyone started placing a bet for him to lose in the first round.

• 1:47:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:47:51Joe Rogan?

  Cause he apparently had a bad knee injury. And so he knew that he couldn't fight. And so the, the idea was, let's make a lot of money betting on me, cause he was the favorite. He would go in there, or betting against me, and so he would go in there and throw a kick, fall down, injured, get beat up. They'd stop the fight and then all these people that knew he was injured make a ton of money.

• 1:48:14Speaker 03

  And he was in on it, like, he told them that he was gonna?

• 1:48:17Joe Rogan?

  Allegedly. I just wanna say allegedly.

• 1:48:18Speaker 03

  Okay, okay.

• 1:48:18Joe Rogan?

  But it's enough so that the, the, the team was removed from the UFC roster. Like, if you are competing for that team, you no longer can fight in the UFC. You have to find a new gym.

• 1:48:28Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:48:28Joe Rogan?

  The coach was no longer allowed to coach, the fighter was banned. And so then the FBI got involved and they said, well, there's a bunch of different fights that are suspicious. So then a bunch of fighters came out and said, hey, somebody offered me $70,000 to lose and I said, no.

• 1:48:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:45Joe Rogan?

  And so then there was a fight recently between Michael Johnson and Alexander Hernandez, which is a fight I was really looking forward to. That was canceled last minute and I was like, what's going on? They said suspicious betting activity. And so someone was saying that Alexander Hernandez was injured and a bunch of money came in on him to lose. He was actually the favorite going into the fight.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  And that therefore rigged it?

• 1:49:07Joe Rogan?

  Nope, didn't rig it because the FBI was informed, I believe they were informed, but the UFC was informed and the UFC pulled the fight.

• 1:49:15Speaker 01

  So wait.

• 1:49:15Joe Rogan?

  They said, because of this suspicious betting activity, because a lot of late minute money came in on this one guy to win, we're gonna pull this fight from the card and not allow this fight to take place and do a thorough investigation. Because something seems wrong because of the previous fight that they know was fixed.

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  But fighters have been doing that for ages, haven't they? I mean, that's the thing that they've always done.

• 1:49:36Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  How does that connect then to the AI element, this website?

• 1:49:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, we were talking about betting.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I see.

• 1:49:42Joe Rogan?

  We were talking about polymarket. We weren't talking about AI.

• 1:49:45Speaker 01

  I was trying to connect the.

• 1:49:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were talking about polymarket bets and whether or not it's legal to have inside information.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  But they, I mean, I know that.

• 1:49:53Joe Rogan?

  Polymarket privileged users made millions betting on war strikes and diplomatic strategy. What did they know beforehand? Privileged users, right. So imagine if you're someone who's an aide to the Pentagon. You know, you're working there and you know that we are gonna bomb Iran.

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:10Joe Rogan?

  And then there's a polymarket thing about it and no one else knows.

• 1:50:13Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, yes.

• 1:50:14Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  That, I mean, that's been going on forever though, hasn't it? People have always done that. They've always manipulated. That's a plot in Pulp Fiction, isn't it? Where Bruce Willis's character bets on something he knows he's gonna, he loses the fight deliberately.

• 1:50:24Joe Rogan?

  Throws the fight.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  So that he can make the money off.

• 1:50:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  You know, it's that kind of thing.

• 1:50:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. That's always gone on. But this polymarket thing is new because you can kind of, there's Calci and then there's DraftKings has it now.

• 1:50:37Speaker 03

  It's not actually gambling is the difference here.

• 1:50:39Joe Rogan?

  You're speculating.

• 1:50:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're not taking money from the book or the house or whatever. You're betting against each other.

• 1:50:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:46Speaker 01

  But the fact that they know about it and they know it's happening, that means they'll be able to crack down on it.

• 1:50:50Joe Rogan?

  But I don't know, because there's a lot of, there's so many options and possibilities. Like unless you make a gigantic score and people start getting suspicious, if you're not greedy about it and you're kind of sneaking around a little bit here, a little bit there, I bet you could probably make a lot of money doing that.

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  But do you think fighters and people like that and sports people generally, I mean, they're too proud, aren't they, to let something like that go just because, just for money?

• 1:51:13Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  No?

• 1:51:14Joe Rogan?

  No, that's not true. Depends on how much money they're making. Look, if you're Anthony Joshua, I'd say, yeah, you're not gonna do that. You're very wealthy. But if you're a guy who's on the undercard and you're only getting ten thousand dollars to fight, but someone's giving you a hundred thousand dollars to lose.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:51:28Joe Rogan?

  And you say, okay, I'm just gonna box shitty tonight. Guys have done that forever.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess so.

• 1:51:33Joe Rogan?

  Just don't knock this guy out, whatever you do, carry him, or carry him to the 10th round.

• 1:51:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:39Joe Rogan?

  You know, there's a lot of that going on, where they say, I have a bet that you're gonna knock him out in the 10th round. So knock him out in the 10th round only.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  I don't think you'll ever be able to stop that.

• 1:51:47Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  If that's gonna happen.

• 1:51:48Joe Rogan?

  No, I don't think so either. I mean, that's, that's gone on forever.

• 1:51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But isn't fighting like a kind of vocation, like a creative vocation for a lot of people?

• 1:51:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, it is creative, believe it or not, because movement is creative.

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:01Joe Rogan?

  You know, when you're fighting, you're not just running at each other, and some guys do. But the really good guys don't just run at each other and charge. There's feints and deception, there's movement.

• 1:52:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:12Joe Rogan?

  There's certain things that they're doing where they're reading your movement and trying to guide you in a particular direction and set you up.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  I can believe it.

• 1:52:20Joe Rogan?

  Boxers call it setting traps.

• 1:52:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  It's like playing, you've got to bluff.

• 1:52:23Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:52:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a lot of feinting involved in, in fighting. There's a lot of like fake movement to get you to react, and then they kick you when you settle in. You know, there's, it's, it's really creative. You know, it's just why like, was it Faye Dunaway? No, was it, who was it that said, you know, that, the older woman that said, and talked about the arts, and I don't mean mixed martial arts. God, who was it?

• 1:52:47Speaker 01

  What, like a kind of snobbish thing about, "Glen Close"?

• 1:52:50Joe Rogan?

  No, it wasn't her. It was the lady from Bridges of Madison County. Who was that?

• 1:52:58Speaker 01

  That's, uh, Meryl Streep.

• 1:52:59Joe Rogan?

  Meryl Streep, that's who it was. Yeah, Meryl Streep said that. It's like, it got pissed off so many martial arts people.

• 1:53:06Speaker 01

  Why? That Meryl Streep doesn't like that?

• 1:53:07Joe Rogan?

  And she'd say, "I'm not talking about mixed martial arts", like. Who thought you were?

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:13Joe Rogan?

  Who thought you were, Merrill? That's crazy.

• 1:53:15Speaker 01

  I don't know, she's pretty versatile. She can do a lot.

• 1:53:17Joe Rogan?

  But also, even though it's violent, you think it's not art just because you don't understand it. If you understood it, it is art and is in fact like a beautiful... Some performances are beautiful.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Well, it's choreography, right?

• 1:53:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  In a way.

• 1:53:30Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's not choreography at all. It's ad-libbing in the moment. I mean, there's preconceived motions that you have that you're hoping that if the guy does this, you're going to do that, and sometimes it works out.

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:44Joe Rogan?

  But it's like the poetry of movement of a really sublime fighter like, you know, Anderson Silva in his prime.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:51Joe Rogan?

  Was beautiful to watch, you know?

• 1:53:53Speaker 01

  I believe you. You know, I have very limited experience of this. I did Kung Fu when I was 12 and I stopped because I got so bruised.

• 1:54:01Joe Rogan?

  Oh, well, there you go.

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  I got so hurt, I was too cowardly.

• 1:54:03Joe Rogan?

  But, you know, people impose their own standards on other people and their own ideas of what things are, you know, from the outside. And, you know, it's kind of silly.

• 1:54:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, Joe, I was going to tell you about this Berkeley thing.

• 1:54:15Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, that's right, that's right.

• 1:54:17Speaker 01

  We got on to...

• 1:54:17Joe Rogan?

  Sidetracked.

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  Got on to elephants. But I think that... It was a natural segue. Because I think this encapsulates all of the stuff you were talking about, which is that I was going to this, basically Charlie Kirk's tour. It was meant to go on. Berkeley was the last date. And Rob Schneider had agreed to do it. And apparently he'd said to Charlie, you know, "What's the craziest place you could take me to?" And he said, "Berkeley. Berkeley's going to be the craziest. Let's do that." So he was already booked to do it. After what happened with Charlie, Rob asked me if I'd come along as well. And so we'd be on a panel. And I had no idea of the extent of the problem, right? So, and I'm sure you know a lot more than I do. You know, but I turned up. We were there, we turned up and there were men with guns. We were, you know, in an SUV under the ground.

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  We got into this venue and suddenly the security starts showing me footage from outside. And people are, it's like a war zone. People are throwing smoke bombs. They're trying to crash through the railings. Some guy gets beaten up. He's covered in blood because he was wearing a T-shirt with Turning Point written on it. And I'm suddenly realizing... You know what, this is a fantasy world that we're now occupying. We're now occupying a world where the people outside think the world is this, and what's going on inside is completely disconnected from it.

• 1:55:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  And I actually found it quite depressing. Because when I was sitting on stage talking to Rob and Peter Boghossian and Frank Turek, these people of completely different viewpoints, we're just having a chat. Outside, they're smashing things, they're screaming, they're saying that fascists have overrun the university.

• 1:55:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:44Speaker 01

  And I'm thinking, just to come back to that point you made about, you know, that need for discussion. That experience made me think, actually, now, what's happening is, we're like, we're living in two separate worlds at the same time. And we can't see what, we can't see what the other side is, what the intentions of the other side are. And I don't know how you resolve that. I think that's, that to me, sort of encapsulated the entire problem.

• 1:56:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, at this point, it's going to be very difficult to resolve. And I honestly think it's going to take a generation to work through it.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  But isn't it as simple as people learning what the word fascist means, for instance?

• 1:56:17Joe Rogan?

  It's not just that. It's like, they firmly believe that they are trying to fight against something that is going to destroy democracy in this country, which is conservative values.

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  But we had that with the No Kings, so there's a No Kings march. And I couldn't figure that out, I was trying to figure out, what are they, this is an elected leader.

• 1:56:35Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know it's all organized, right? You know, this is all funded.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:56:38Joe Rogan?

  Okay, it is. So, this was Mike Benz's point, when he was talking about the defunding of USAID and what they use that money for. NGOs get a bunch of money, and they fund a bunch of things, particularly in other countries, where they're essentially making it look like there's these on-the-ground street protests that are very organic.

• 1:57:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:02Joe Rogan?

  But it's not. It's very organized, and it's very funded. And the idea is to start chaos.

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  So I've seen people get caught out, people who are clearly being paid, who appear at various different things.

• 1:57:12Joe Rogan?

  It's not just that. It's also email campaigns, it's indoctrinating people into this particular ideology by supporting universities, so you fund it in advance.

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:22Joe Rogan?

  So it's like decades of, and this is, I'm sure you've seen the

• 1:57:29Joe Rogan?

  Russian guy from nineteen eighty four, nineteen eighty five, Yuri Bezmenov, talking about the

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  Remind me.

• 1:57:36Joe Rogan?

  You've never seen it?

• 1:57:37Speaker 01

  I don't think I've seen it.

• 1:57:38Joe Rogan?

  It's a wonderful video, because it shows you exactly what happened, how they're gonna introduce Marxism and Leninism into universities, and then it'll indoctrinate children, and then those children will be poisoned, and within one generation, it'll ruin the United States' entire educational system.

• 1:57:54Speaker 01

  So that's the long march.

• 1:57:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's the long, but you should watch a little bit of this.

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:59Joe Rogan?

  Because it's crazy, because back then, I remember the nineteen eighties, that would be a crazy idea. No, universities are where people have free thought and discussion, it's very important.

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:10Joe Rogan?

  You know, and I was in a very left-leaning place at the time, I was living in Boston, you know.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:58:15Joe Rogan?

  And it's like, probably more universities per capita than anywhere else in the country, at least at the time. And it was a very well-read city, like, the idea that universities are gonna destroy the way human beings interact and debate is like, preposterous, but this guy was talking about this back then, that the Soviets had planned this in advance, and that they had essentially subverted our entire education system, and thereby, would, those people would leave those schools indoctrinated, and enter into the workforce with these new ideas, in universal acceptance that these ideas are correct, and then it would, in turn, you know, the butterfly effect.

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  But do you think that everyone, I don't, I can't be sure that it's as conspiratorial as that, because there must be a lot of, you know, people who just got on board with this.

• 1:58:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's a lot of money involved in doing this.

• 1:59:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59:01Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of funds that have come from China, there's a lot of money that has been donated to these universities, like, find that video.

• 1:59:09Speaker 03

  Okay, I found it, but there's like a second version on Twitter I've never seen before.

• 1:59:13Speaker 01

  An AI moderated one.

• 1:59:14Speaker 03

  No, no, it's just like a different version.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  He's now in a wig. Oh, I recognize him.

• 1:59:18Joe Rogan?

  So, listen to what he says.

• 1:59:21Speaker 04

  Is spent on espionage as such. The other eighty-five percent is a slow process, which we call either ideological subversion or active measures, активные мероприятия in the language of the KGB, or psychological warfare. What it basically means is to change the perception of reality of every American to such an extent that despite of the abundance of information, no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of defending themselves, their families, their community, and their country. It's a great brainwashing process, which goes very slow

• 2:00:04Speaker 04

  and it's divided in four basic stages. The first one being demoralization. It takes from fifteen to twenty years to demoralize a nation. Why that many years? Because this is the minimum number of years which requires to educate one generation of students in the country of your enemy, exposed to the ideology of the enemy. In other words, Marxism-Leninism ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of at least three generations of American students without being challenged or counterbalanced by the basic values of Americanism, American patriotism. The result? The result you can see. Most of the people who graduated in the sixties,

• 2:00:49Speaker 04

  dropouts or half-baked intellectuals, are now occupying the positions of power in the government, civil service, business, mass media, educational system. You are stuck with them. You cannot get rid of them. They are contaminated. They are programmed to think and react to certain stimuli in a certain pattern. You cannot change their mind, even if you expose them to authentic information, even if you prove that white is white and black is black. You still cannot change the basic perception and the logic of behavior. In other words, these people, the process of demoralization is complete and irreversible.

• 2:01:30Speaker 04

  To get rid, society of these people, you have, you need another twenty or fifteen years to educate a new generation of patriotically minded and common sense people, who would be acting in favor and in the interests of the United States society. And yet, these people who've been programmed and, as you say, in place, and who are favorable to an opening with the Soviet concept, these are the very people who would be marked for extermination in this country? Most of them, yes. Simply because the psychological shock, when they will see in future what the beautiful society of equality and social justice means in practice,

• 2:02:15Speaker 04

  obviously, they will revolt. They will be very unhappy, frustrated people. And Marxist-Leninist regime does not tolerate these people. They, obviously, they will join the links of dissenters, dissidents. Unlike in present United States, there will be no place for dissent in future Marxist-Leninist America. Here, you can get popular like Daniel Ellsberg and filthy rich like Jane Fonda for being dissident, for criticizing your Pentagon. In future, these people will be simply squashed like cockroaches. Nobody is going to pay them nothing for their beautiful, noble ideas of equality.

• 2:03:00Speaker 04

  This they don't understand, and it will be greatest shock for them, of course. The demoralization process in the United States is basically completed already. For the last twenty-five years. Actually, it's overfulfilled, because demoralization now reaches such areas where previously, not even Comrade Andropov and all his experts would even dream of such a tremendous success. Most of it is done by Americans to Americans, thanks to lack of moral standards. As I mentioned before, exposure to true information does not matter anymore.

• 2:03:39Speaker 04

  A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell nothing to him. Even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents, with pictures, even if I take him by force to the Soviet Union and show him concentration camp, he will refuse to believe it until he is going to receive a kick in his fat bottom. When a military boot crashes his... Then he will understand, but not before that. That's the tragic of the situation of demoralization.

• 2:04:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:04:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, pretty fucking accurate.

• 2:04:16Speaker 01

  Well, he's describing the situation as it is at the moment, right?

• 2:04:18Joe Rogan?

  And he's describing it in 1984.

• 2:04:20Speaker 01

  However, that doesn't prove that what he's... That intention to create that kind of chaos, that it was implemented and executed in the way that he describes. He's described the outcome...

• 2:04:30Joe Rogan?

  He's a KGB agent.

• 2:04:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I suppose what I mean by that is...

• 2:04:33Joe Rogan?

  He's talking about a program that they implemented.

• 2:04:36Speaker 01

  So they had actual people in universities, planted in universities to deliberately execute this idea.

• 2:04:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and they planned it in advance. This is what he was saying. And he's saying this before we even realized that it happened.

• 2:04:47Speaker 01

  I agree, that's scary.

• 2:04:48Joe Rogan?

  It is scary because it did happen.

• 2:04:50Speaker 01

  But what... But that doesn't fully explain why it caught on. Why did academics who were clearly not plants, why did they catch on with this stuff?

• 2:04:57Joe Rogan?

  Well, they don't live in the fucking real world. This is the problem with academics. They go right from universities to teaching positions.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  I mean, this whole...

• 2:05:05Joe Rogan?

  They don't have any real-world experience.

• 2:05:07Speaker 01

  I mean, this whole idea of the long march through the institutions, it's there in Ruder Deutschko. It's there. It was said, "We're gonna do this. We're gonna infiltrate the major organizations, institutions, the church. We're going to, over a very long period of time, change society in the way that we want to see it." I think what's happened is, I think that intention was there. I think what he's saying is very eerily describing what's happening now, the demoralization and the detachment from truth. But I don't think it necessarily came about... As systematically as that.

• 2:05:35Joe Rogan?

  How do you think it came about?

• 2:05:37Speaker 01

  I think, well, for one thing, I think what we're facing now isn't quite the template that Marx would have had in mind, right? Because for one thing, there's no emphasis on class or money or the economy or anything.

• 2:05:49Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:05:49Speaker 01

  Well, insofar as Marxism has become about group identity, in terms of the left.

• 2:05:53Joe Rogan?

  Right, but eat the rich is a giant mantra that people chant in the streets.

• 2:05:58Speaker 01

  That's true, that's true.

• 2:05:59Joe Rogan?

  They try to tax billionaires. There are people are-

• 2:06:02Speaker 01

  But it's incoherent because it's from people who've got money. It's from the upper middle classes.

• 2:06:05Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't have to be coherent. It's all just something, a narrative that you give the unwashed masses and then they run with it.

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  Well, I wonder whether it caught on partly through what became fashionable, what became trendy, but also because any ideology says to you, you don't have to do any thinking anymore, you can outsource that to us.

• 2:06:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:23Speaker 01

  We've got a set of rules.

• 2:06:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:25Speaker 01

  And these are the rules that you've got.

• 2:06:26Joe Rogan?

  People love that.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  It's why, well, it's why you've got people who are, well, it's why you've got Queers for Palestine.

• 2:06:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:31Speaker 01

  You know, that can only exist when you're following a set of rules and not thinking about it for two seconds, right?

• 2:06:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's a wonderful group.

• 2:06:37Speaker 01

  I actually thought that was fake when I first heard about it, which must be about five years ago.

• 2:06:41Joe Rogan?

  You've seen the other meme?

• 2:06:42Speaker 01

  I, I thought it was unreal.

• 2:06:44Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen that meme?

• 2:06:44Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 2:06:45Joe Rogan?

  Queers for Palestine and then Palestine for queers?

• 2:06:47Speaker 01

  Oh, and I imagine-

• 2:06:48Joe Rogan?

  And they're throwing people off roofs.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Of course they are, of course they are. I just say, go and do, go, go, go there and see what you, see what you see, see what you experience.

• 2:06:57Joe Rogan?

  Go there as a man in a dress wearing lipstick with a beard. Good luck.

• 2:07:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just did a Titania tweet of a drag queen touring the Middle East and she's, you know, she's touring all these venues and, and she's got that sort of Palestine dress and then the sort of the glam kind of Arabic look. It's like, just, just go there and see what happens. But that, that kind of cognitive dissonance can only work if you are-

• 2:07:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:07:20Speaker 01

  If you are ideologically driven and I think, so I suppose what I mean is I think the appeal of ideology.

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  Is what is what explains, not a kind of we've implanted these agents here. They're going to lead to this, they're going to lead to this. It has to also be complicity.

• 2:07:37Joe Rogan?

  Of course, but that comes from implanting ideas. Those ideas take hold and then group think takes it from there.

• 2:07:43Speaker 01

  But isn't it a shame that universities of all places, the place where you go to be challenged? And the place where you go, I mean, I was thinking that when I was at Berkeley and I, you know, I was sitting on the stage. And there's all these men with guns all around the theater because of course what happened with Charlie. And I'm thinking, it's like the end of the Blues Brothers, you know, where you're on stage and all the people are waiting in the. It felt weird and I thought this is not, this is not what a university is or should be. And the other thing that I thought is a lot of those people outside protesting weren't students. They'd sort of come in, they'd been bussed in. So maybe that feeds into what you were saying about, you know, this is all planned and.

• 2:08:19Joe Rogan?

  How are they getting bussed in? Who's funding them?

• 2:08:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:08:21Joe Rogan?

  People are paying a lot of money to do that.

• 2:08:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:08:24Joe Rogan?

  And they're doing it all over the country.

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  To what end?

• 2:08:27Joe Rogan?

  During the presidential elections.

• 2:08:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:29Joe Rogan?

  During the presidential elections, they were tracking cell phones from place to place. And they realized that there was a group of people that were paid attendees at Kamala Harris's rallies.

• 2:08:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I remember that.

• 2:08:42Joe Rogan?

  And so they were getting paid. Their job was to show up and cheer for Kamala Harris. This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees and thousands of fee free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate crazy high, it's nine times the national average.

• 2:09:26Joe Rogan?

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• 2:09:47Joe Rogan?

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• 2:10:32Joe Rogan?

  Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com.

• 2:10:45Speaker 01

  Do you think fundamentally then the Democrats are anti-democratic?

• 2:10:47Joe Rogan?

  I think fundamentally, anybody that doesn't have organic support is going to figure out a way in this environment to drum it up. And if you can do that through a service, or if you could do that through an NGO, or if you could do that through a company that'll hire people to show up at your rallies, they do it because they want to win and they want to get into a position of power. And one of the things that we do find with Trump is that it actually turns out the president can do a lot.

• 2:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:19Joe Rogan?

  You know, and we used to think that they were kind of handcuffed and they weren't able to do as much and that's why nothing ever got done. Turns out that's, that doesn't seem to be true. You get a maniac in office, you can kind of get away with a lot of things. You can do a lot of different things.

• 2:11:31Speaker 01

  That's what we sort of need in the UK. We need someone to come in and strip away.

• 2:11:35Joe Rogan?

  Well, we need what Besmanoff was saying is that we need to kind of, a whole generation that teaches that being patriotic and having morals and ethics is actually a good thing. And that free speech is important and that to be able to debate ideas is essential to any sort of true...

• 2:11:59Joe Rogan?

  Society that considers itself an elevated.

• 2:12:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:12:04Joe Rogan?

  Modern version of what we hoped for when this country was founded.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:10Joe Rogan?

  It wasn't founded on the idea that it's you have to adhere to one ideology and this ideology thinks that gender's not real and no one can answer what a woman is. Like, that's crazy that that's become popular.

• 2:12:23Speaker 01

  Well, we see in America, like, America's the kind of life raft of the world, that you've got all these things built into your political system.

• 2:12:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:29Speaker 01

  And that's why it's so scary when you see people. Do you remember the vice presidential debate between J D Vance and Tim Walz? And Tim Walz said that the First Amendment doesn't cover hate speech. It doesn't cover misinformation.

• 2:12:41Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. He's a dangerous fuck.

• 2:12:44Speaker 01

  Like, that's scary. If the guy who might be vice president is saying, actually, we're gonna strip out all of this stuff.

• 2:12:50Joe Rogan?

  Also, just the way he behaves is so odd. The way he waves and runs on stage and it's all just so fake and performative.

• 2:12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:59Joe Rogan?

  I don't know any men like that that aren't dangerous.

• 2:13:02Speaker 01

  Why was he picked?

• 2:13:03Joe Rogan?

  Probably because of the Minnesota stuff. It's probably it probably had something to do with what he was allowing to happen in Minnesota.

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  Well, he can get money.

• 2:13:11Joe Rogan?

  A ton of money.

• 2:13:12Speaker 01

  Right, okay, maybe.

• 2:13:13Joe Rogan?

  Like, there's a reason why he had to resign. I mean, I'm clearly speculating. I have no idea and I'm a moron when it comes to politics. But what I would what I would assume is that the for sure, he was informed of this fraud long in advance.

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:13:30Joe Rogan?

  If it wasn't for that Nick Shirley kid and those videos and apparently Nick Shirley had been informed by the the GOP there that this was all going on. So this gets exposed, gets into the public zeitgeist, it becomes a huge news story. It's not a coincidence that the riots break out in the exact same place where all this fraud is being exposed.

• 2:13:48Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 2:13:49Joe Rogan?

  Because ICE is everywhere. They're all over the place. But it's not. The most violent interactions are the interactions that are happening in the place where the most fraud has been publicly exposed.

• 2:13:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:59Joe Rogan?

  It's all, this is all by design.

• 2:14:01Speaker 01

  There's something very scary about it.

• 2:14:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and so this guy knew about it in advance. How do we know? Well, one way we know is because he's resigning.

• 2:14:09Speaker 01

  So it must be something.

• 2:14:10Joe Rogan?

  Right, there's something. He's not running for governor again. He was in the process of running for governor. He's decided to step out of public office entirely now. So maybe they told him, if you do not step out, you were going to be prosecuted. We know what you did. Or maybe he's going to fucking turn state's evidence. Who fucking knows?

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  Imagine if he'd have won, him and Kamala Harris. If they'd have been in charge, I mean, what could...

• 2:14:32Joe Rogan?

  God.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  I don't think I would have come here.

• 2:14:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, what if Elon doesn't buy Twitter and Kamala Harris wins and Tim Walz is our vice president?

• 2:14:39Speaker 01

  Well, doesn't that just tell you how fragile freedom is? How close you are.

• 2:14:43Joe Rogan?

  Very fragile. And that's why people support Donald Trump. And the people that think that they support him because he's a racist and all these different things, no, no, no. They support it because it's an alternative to what we all saw coming. You know, like, no one's excited that ICE is killing people in the streets. No one, no one likes that.

• 2:14:58Speaker 01

  No, of course not.

• 2:14:59Joe Rogan?

  You have to be fucking insane if you think those people should be just getting shot like that. That's nuts. But what they don't want is what the government was previously doing. They had a completely open border, they were busing people into swing states, they were trying to pretend that this was all organic, and it's not. It's not. It's, they had a plan. And they did it in a sneaky way where they looked like the really kind, ethical, equitable, and inclusive crowd.

• 2:15:26Speaker 01

  Right. Well, that's the woke story all over again.

• 2:15:28Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. It was the woke stories applied to geopolitics. It was the woke stories applied to, the whole political process in this country was dependent upon the census, which the census doesn't count citizens, the census just counts humans. And so you get more congressional seats, you get more electoral points, the whole thing is nuts.

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  I mean, I like to think that not all Democrats are into that. Not all Democrats are about the power for its own sake.

• 2:15:52Joe Rogan?

  Of course not. But the problem is, it's a party. Like, if you work for a corporation and you're a good person, but the corporation is polluting a river in Guatemala, there's a diffusion of responsibility because you're a part of a giant system and, hey, I'm just an accountant. I go to work and I do my thing for Exxon or Mobil or whatever it is.

• 2:16:10Speaker 01

  Well, I'd say for however messy all of this has become in the US, at least you've had some sort of attempt to strip out the very stuff that that guy was talking about. The fact that the civil service is all one way, the fact that the machinery of government. That was the plan, right? So the machinery of government works in a certain way, so there's no democratic means of getting rid of it. There's no way to change it.

• 2:16:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think the counter to that is the education that the internet provides. And that's where they didn't anticipate in 1984. So the education that the internet provides is untethered.

• 2:16:40Speaker 01

  But then the internet tells us that Christopher Nolan's just made a film with Black Helen of Troy, and he hasn't.

• 2:16:44Joe Rogan?

  It produces all sorts of unsavory things, too.

• 2:16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:48Joe Rogan?

  But it also allows the distribution of information that would be impossible through normal means if these people are, as he said, in control of major media, which they were, in control of universities, which they are, and then it goes on to be the only way people get information. Now your information is very heavily filtered, and then all that stuff works.

• 2:17:09Speaker 01

  But that's why the technocrats in the EU, why ideologues generally are against internet, or they want to censor it.

• 2:17:16Joe Rogan?

  It's why Macron is trying to stop X in France, or whoever's trying to stop it.

• 2:17:22Speaker 01

  So the EU, the head of the EU Commission is Ursula von der Leyen. Did you hear her...

• 2:17:26Joe Rogan?

  It's a great name, by the way.

• 2:17:26Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, it's a sexy name, right?

• 2:17:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:29Speaker 01

  She's unelected. The European Commission is an unelected body that sets the legislative agenda of all these European countries. Absolutely crazy. You can't vote them out. She did a speech last May where she said, and I'm not joking about this, she said that misinformation was like a virus, and you need to inoculate yourself against the virus. And the phrase she used is not debunking, pre-bunking. So pre-bunking is her idea of what you do with misinformation. What she means is censorship. But pre-bunking is the most sinister...

• 2:18:01Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:18:01Speaker 01

  Chill it. Like, if you were to say, I'm going to come up with the most Orwellian, sort of Dark Lord kind of Sith...

• 2:18:08Joe Rogan?

  Pre-bunking.

• 2:18:09Speaker 01

  Pre-bunking.

• 2:18:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's like fucking Minority Report, right?

• 2:18:12Speaker 01

  I don't know what the... Because I know that there's this free speech debate opening up between the US and Europe generally. Like, you know when JD... Vance came over to Munich and gave that talk to all the European leaders and said, "You've got to stop censoring your people. You've got to stop running away from voters." And they were shocked and they were horrified, but he was dead right.

• 2:18:30Joe Rogan?

  He's dead right.

• 2:18:31Speaker 01

  And he should, and you know what? People on the left should admit that he's dead right as well. But there's something about Europe, right? There's something about, like, I think over here, coming over here, I get the sense that even if most left-leaning people, as well as right-leaning people, do value free speech as a kind of shared value, and in Europe, it's not that. There's a real sense of, "We can't trust the masses." Because I know that the EU is seen as this big lefty thing, which it absolutely is not. The EU is a body that wants to censor its citizens. It's a body that tells people, "You can have a referendum, but if you get it wrong, we're going to make you vote again." It's not a democratic organization. So no wonder Vance is sort of, and Trump is at loggerheads with this body, because you've got these,

• 2:19:14Speaker 01

  we in the UK have a authoritarian leader, Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister. He couldn't be further away from the American ideal of free speech. He introduced this online safety bill, which is basically, this is why a lot of tweets in the UK, if you go over to the UK now, a lot of the tweets will come up saying, "This is potentially harmful content, so we're screening it out." He, you know, they're trying to get rid of juries for certain trials.

• 2:19:36Joe Rogan?

  They did get rid of juries. They already did.

• 2:19:38Speaker 01

  And that's particularly dangerous, because some of those cases are for speech crime, right? So I'll give you an example. There was a Royal Marine called Jamie Michael, who had made a video just saying, "We need to peacefully protest against the immigration issue." They took him to court for stirring up racial hatred, but the jury is what let him off. It was the jury that saved him. In this new system, there wouldn't be a jury there, and he would be in prison.

• 2:20:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and most certainly would be in prison.

• 2:20:08Speaker 01

  So I kind of feel like, and we've got Keir Starmer now for another three years. Every decision that he makes is about not trusting the public, censoring what they think. If he could get rid of X, he absolutely would.

• 2:20:18Joe Rogan?

  Is it possible that someone sensible could win in three years? Or is the system so deeply entwined in the ideology of the English people?

• 2:20:30Joe Rogan?

  That it's just stuck.

• 2:20:31Speaker 01

  This is what I think about that, because I look at America and I think, in a way, you had your culture war election because of Trump, right?

• 2:20:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:37Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, a lot of people say the culture war doesn't matter. Of course it does.

• 2:20:41Joe Rogan?

  Of course it matters.

• 2:20:41Speaker 01

  I mean, you, did you see about that, the, the advert that the GOP put out? You know, Kamala Harris is for they/them, Trump is for you. That was the slogan. It was about the Democrats wanting to fund transgender surgery for prisoners. And Donald Trump's team had this advert, Kamala Harris for they/them, Donald Trump is for you. That actuated a 2.7 shift in favor of Donald Trump among everyone who saw it. It was a major success. That just shows that these issues, these cultural issues, people do care.

• 2:21:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh, they care.

• 2:21:11Speaker 01

  And people do vote. But you had a way in America to vote that stuff out through Trump, right? We, we've never had that. We've had-

• 2:21:18Joe Rogan?

  But they barely had a way. Like, if they, if they had more time, they wouldn't have.

• 2:21:23Speaker 01

  You mean that if the Democrats-

• 2:21:24Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:21:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 2:21:25Joe Rogan?

  If the Democrats won this time, and then they tried to do it again in 2028. Elon was really adamant about that during the last election. Like, this might be the last real election we have if you don't stop this now, because they have an open border. And in the last four years, they've pulled 10, at least, 10 million people into this country. And they've changed the electoral map.

• 2:21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:21:48Joe Rogan?

  And then on top of that, there was both Schumer and Nancy Pelosi-

• 2:21:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:21:55Joe Rogan?

  openly talking about letting these people vote, openly talking about giving these people a path to citizenship. And they had already put them on Medicaid, they had already put them on social security, they were giving them EBT cards.

• 2:22:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:22:07Joe Rogan?

  They were housing them at the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City. They were giving them money and helping them get to these states.

• 2:22:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:22:13Joe Rogan?

  They were flying them through into America and putting them in these places because they were trying to get voters.

• 2:22:21Speaker 01

  So another four years.

• 2:22:22Joe Rogan?

  Another four years, they might have had it completely locked up.

• 2:22:25Speaker 01

  You know, that's what the Democrats have said about the Republicans. I mean, Oprah Winfrey was saying, this might be the last election we have if we don't vote for, if we don't vote for Kamala Harris.

• 2:22:33Joe Rogan?

  Meanwhile, Oprah Winfrey had Donald Trump on her show years ago-

• 2:22:37Speaker 01

  Oh, they were friends, weren't they?

• 2:22:38Joe Rogan?

  And was asking him to be president.

• 2:22:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were mates, weren't they? Yeah.

• 2:22:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:22:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:42Joe Rogan?

  Look, they all get captured. They all get captured by groupthink and ideology, and they all get captured by money and protecting it, and who's going to protect them, and-

• 2:22:51Speaker 01

  But we don't, we don't have that safety valve in the UK. Like, so, like I say, you were able to, for all the imperfections, you were able to vote in an administration that was actually going to rip out that, that, whatever you call it.

• 2:23:02Joe Rogan?

  It showed the system is better. It showed the system is better, even though the system was trying to get rigged. Enough people revolted against it.

• 2:23:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:23:10Joe Rogan?

  That, but, look at the ideas that you're attaching to this administration. Like, look, the ICE stuff is horrific, the people getting shot, it's horrific, we all agree to that. There's a lot of the authoritarian aspects, it's horrific. But what they've stopped is all of this illegal immigration.

• 2:23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:28Joe Rogan?

  They've stopped all the illegal immigration. Legal immigration is still available, and then what they've also done is investigate literally billions of dollars in fraud, and they're uncovering it over and over and over and over again. So there was obviously crime that was going on.

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:44Joe Rogan?

  That was not being addressed by the previous party.

• 2:23:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:23:46Joe Rogan?

  And this is one of the reasons why they didn't want the Republicans getting in, in the first place. So, they still have to label them in the most horrific ways possible, accentuate all the negative aspects of what's going on with the ICE stuff, but not talk at all about the economy taking an uptick, not talk at all about GDP, not talk at all about tariffs being effective, not talk at all about any of the positive things. Stopping wars, he stopped wars in multiple different countries, stopped conflicts, there's, no one's talking at all in an objective sense.

• 2:24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:17Joe Rogan?

  It's, this is a Nazi party, these are fascists, we have to have no kings, stop the fascists. So these narratives are just being pushed out there constantly by the media, all the while, these politicians are absolutely terrified that these investigations are going to start moving into their states and uncovering more and more and more fraud, which they're going to.

• 2:24:38Speaker 01

  But, I mean, I know you say, it's so reckless though, I think, as well, for the Democrats to, like you say, paint ICE as Nazis, talk about that this is the equivalent of the Gestapo, I think someone used that phrase. I mean, I know, what you're saying about the shootings, obviously we all agree, it's absolutely horrific. Any kind of situation where the police inflict that kind of violence and someone needs to be thoroughly investigated and looked into and all the rest of it, but I'm, I'm concerned about the politicians I know go there, get in the way of federal agents while they're enforcing the law.

• 2:25:03Joe Rogan?

  They're just trying to be popular.

• 2:25:05Speaker 01

  But, but, but, they're putting people's lives at risk, aren't they?

• 2:25:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:09Joe Rogan?

  But it's again, that chess move again, giving up the rook or attacking a rook and giving up your queen because of it, because you just want the current victory.

• 2:25:18Speaker 01

  Well, it's working insofar as the, like, the public is turning against Trump because of what's happening with ICE. I mean, that's sort of working.

• 2:25:23Joe Rogan?

  There's certainly a lot of that. Yeah, there's certainly a lot of that. The narrative is out there. It's dependent upon how far it goes.

• 2:25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:31Joe Rogan?

  Right? They've got to de-escalate this violence.

• 2:25:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:25:34Joe Rogan?

  They've got to make sure that that, but you also need support of local police. You can't have people attack the hotels where these ICE people are staying and have no support whatsoever by the police. That's crazy.

• 2:25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:25:45Joe Rogan?

  They're being told to stand down.

• 2:25:47Speaker 01

  So this is messy stuff and you.

• 2:25:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:49Speaker 01

  But look how hard it, well, I mean, you talk about how, you know, we, Trump has come in and he's stripped away all this stuff and this fraud and, but that was, he didn't do it in the first term. It's only when he got to the second term and it was planned and he had Doyle set up and he had Musk in place and all of this deep state stuff could be identified and stripped out and worked on.

• 2:26:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, he had a lot of deep state people in his cabinet the first term. He didn't know.

• 2:26:10Speaker 01

  So he couldn't work against it.

• 2:26:11Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:26:12Speaker 01

  But we can't, in the UK, just to sort of explain where I think we are there, is we can't do that because we have, the two major parties are both ideologically in lock step effectively, right? So, I mean, most of the woke stuff was pushed through the Conservative Party. They were in power for 13 years. They're ostensibly right wing.

• 2:26:31Joe Rogan?

  They pushed through the woke stuff?

• 2:26:32Speaker 01

  They pushed through all the genders, self-recognition stuff.

• 2:26:34Joe Rogan?

  Why? Why do you think the Conservatives did that?

• 2:26:36Speaker 01

  So the why is a good question. So the Prime Minister Theresa May, Conservative Prime Minister at the time, she said in her autobiography, "I'm Woke and Proud." You know, she said, like, she, can you imagine Trump saying that? It's the equivalent. It's the equivalent. So I think it's because something about this ideology infected every side of the, the political art, particularly in the UK. What might happen now in the UK is Reform are probably going to win the next election. That's in three years' time. And that's so seismic because it will blow apart this two-party system that we've got. That probably couldn't happen in America, right? You probably couldn't get a third.

• 2:27:11Joe Rogan?

  Do you have a third party that can win?

• 2:27:12Speaker 01

  We have a third party that can win. That's new.

• 2:27:14Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:27:15Speaker 01

  And that's, we haven't had that for a long, long, long, long time.

• 2:27:18Joe Rogan?

  But you said, what is a? The possibility that it could win.

• 2:27:20Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:27:20Joe Rogan?

  You think it's fifty fifty?

• 2:27:21Speaker 01

  Look at it this way, we've been sort of veering massively from, you know, the conservatives under Boris Johnson won this mad, mad majority, like eighty seat majority, and they could do whatever they want and they squandered it. People were so resentful of what happened with Johnson, who by the way, let in so more migration than, illegal migration than we've ever had, right?

• 2:27:39Joe Rogan?

  Did he do that for cheap labor?

• 2:27:41Speaker 01

  Probably. I mean, I think that's certainly part of it.

• 2:27:43Joe Rogan?

  Industry, yeah.

• 2:27:43Speaker 01

  Certainly that's part of it.

• 2:27:44Joe Rogan?

  That's a, that's a problem that conservatives don't want to admit, that they were, you know, I had a conversation with a very prominent politician.

• 2:27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:52Joe Rogan?

  Who explained to me that he had a conversation with a guy who was a CEO of a corporation that didn't want to stop the flow of illegal immigration because he wanted cheap labor.

• 2:28:00Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:28:01Joe Rogan?

  And he was flabbergasted, he was like, I can't fucking believe this guy's saying this out loud.

• 2:28:05Speaker 01

  It's worse with Johnson because in their manifesto, they pledged not to do it.

• 2:28:08Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:28:09Speaker 01

  So they had a promise, they call it the Boris wave, like, so, so, so that's how bad it was. And then you have Starmer and the Labour Party, who were just as bad, if not worse. And, you know, we, we have a situation where it's, it's unmanageable now. And Reform, this third party, Nigel Farage's party, is saying, no, we're actually going to tackle this. And of course, ultimately, what happens is, the public, they reach a tipping point and they say, by the way, Starmer is the, the least popular prime minister on any opinion poll ever in the history of records. That's, he's gone from a massive majority to nothing.

• 2:28:41Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:28:42Speaker 01

  Because he's been so useless on all of this stuff, because he's been so captured by the ideology, because he doesn't care about migration, because he said that anyone who was concerned about the grooming gang scandal was jumping on a bandwagon of the far right, that's what he, that's what he said.

• 2:28:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:56Speaker 01

  So, all of this has happened, but you can't blame the left. It's the left and the right. It's both of them, it's why they call it the uni-party.

• 2:29:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:04Speaker 01

  It's the same thing. So you need something else to come along and, uh.

• 2:29:07Joe Rogan?

  And you, so.

• 2:29:07Speaker 01

  Explode it.

• 2:29:08Joe Rogan?

  What do you think the possibility of Farage winning?

• 2:29:11Speaker 01

  Pretty high.

• 2:29:11Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:29:12Speaker 01

  Right, so if it were today, he'd win.

• 2:29:13Joe Rogan?

  If he didn't get whacked between now and then.

• 2:29:15Speaker 01

  Well, let's.

• 2:29:15Joe Rogan?

  Do you guys whack people over there very often?

• 2:29:18Speaker 01

  Less than here, I think that's more, it's more an American thing. Um, but you know.

• 2:29:22Joe Rogan?

  It's a lot easier, a lot more guns over here.

• 2:29:24Speaker 01

  There's a lot more guns, uh, so, but I, I, fingers crossed, obviously, that won't happen. But it looks like if it was today, he'd win. There's obviously a couple of, I mean, he could mess things up, something crazy could happen.

• 2:29:36Joe Rogan?

  Right, get caught with a live boy or a dead girl.

• 2:29:38Speaker 01

  Something like that, but I think with Starmer, people are just sick of it. He's, it, he has continually backtracked on all his promises. He's not interested. He dismisses people's concerns about immigration. He dismisses people concerned about the mass rape of children in the grooming gang scandal. That, you know, they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do an inquiry about that. They didn't want to do it, you know? And because they're so terrified of being called racist ultimately, so they let this thing slide. So I think people are just sick of it. I think people have reached the point where even I think people who don't like Nigel Farage will hold their nose and vote for a third party to explode the system. And maybe we might be able to reset after that. Maybe something could happen.

• 2:30:17Joe Rogan?

  One of the things that's interesting in America is a lot of young people are becoming conservative.

• 2:30:22Speaker 01

  That's, that is interesting, yeah.

• 2:30:23Joe Rogan?

  It's interesting because I think that's a force of the internet. And being a conservative more today is more like being a rebel.

• 2:30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:31Joe Rogan?

  It's like bucking this system. Whereas it used to be that if you were a rebel, you were left wing. You were like, you're a hippie.

• 2:30:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:39Joe Rogan?

  You know, and that's not really the case anymore because the system that has power is a system that is pushing this one very particular ideology that also demonizes young males.

• 2:30:51Speaker 01

  Hugely, yeah. But that's also why I don't think it's about left and right anymore. I, I think one of the things about the culture war is it, it kind of killed off left and right. Like I say, in the UK, we couldn't vote this out. We had a right wing party, it didn't make a difference. A left wing party makes it worse. We had a prime minister, you know, Keir Starmer on radio saying that 99.9% of men, of women, don't have a penis, which means that there are, what is it, 35,000 female penises out there? It's quite a lot if you can picture that image. You know, so that's our prime minister saying this crazy. Our deputy prime minister said on TV that you could grow a cervix if you wanted. So that's David Lammy. That sounds like I'm making that up. He said that, you can check that. He said you could grow a cervix.

• 2:31:37Speaker 01

  So this is, these are the kind of people who are in charge now, who are, it's just all about their fake. You know, fake ideology, that's all it is.

• 2:31:44Joe Rogan?

  Which is why internet censorship is so much more prominent there.

• 2:31:46Speaker 01

  That's why it's gonna happen. No, that's why they're gonna absolutely try to do that.

• 2:31:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, exactly. Well, they are doing it. Just self censorship by arresting people. There's a lot of censorship involved and scare.

• 2:31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:56Joe Rogan?

  Just in the fear of being arrested.

• 2:31:58Speaker 01

  But the problem for reform will be, do they have the guts to do what Trump did? Do they have the guts to come in and say, look, we need to scrap the civil service? Well, you can't scrap the civil service, but you need to sort of bleed it dry. You need to, you need to give it a good rinse, right? You need to get rid of the, because there have been whistleblowers in the UK civil service who have said, we're not gonna do what the elected politicians say. If, if they come in and say there's an immigration problem, we're just gonna stymie that. We're not gonna do what they want. We've got police who are routinely investigating people for their opinions. Just to put that into context, by the way, if we're talking about this deep state that we've got to clean out, our police force is trained by a body called the College of Policing. They have been telling police for years, it's your job to arrest people for what they

• 2:32:42Speaker 01

  think and what they say. And the High Court, the High Court told them, you've got to stop this. You've got to stop recording non-crime hate incidents. Two Home Secretaries said to them, you've got to stop recording non-crime hate incidents. They ignored the courts, they ignored the government. And that's the power of an ideologically captured quango.

• 2:33:03Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:33:05Speaker 01

  That's the problem. So even when you, even when you vote for a party that's gonna strip this stuff out, you still have to do the actual hard work of stripping out. I would abolish the College of Policing. Do people know about non-crime hate incidents? Do they, do they know that this is a thing in America? Do they know that that's what we do in the UK?

• 2:33:21Joe Rogan?

  Not, I mean, people are just aware that there's a lot of arrests because of social media posts. We don't, we don't pay nearly as much attention to the UK as the UK pays attention to American politics.

• 2:33:30Speaker 01

  Right, and that's fair enough. You know, because we're a small island, that's fair enough. But what I would say is like, it's worse than people think insofar as the 12,000 arrested a year, that's horrific. But with the police routinely checking up on you if you commit non-crime, that's sort of even worse, isn't it?

• 2:33:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:46Speaker 01

  The Scottish police have a database of jokes that they've seen online that they think are problematic. They've kept this, the Scottish police introduced a hate crime bill two years ago now, which can prosecute you for things you say in your own house. There's a section in that bill on the public performance of a play. So if a play is offensive, they can arrest you. If you're the director or an actor involved in a play and it's considered offensive, they can arrest you. They set up, when they implemented that hate crime bill, they set up hate crime reporting centres. So if you felt offended, you could, and they converted like, there was a sex shop, I think, there was a mushroom farm. You could go and report hate to the police as and when it occurs.

• 2:34:25Speaker 01

  And this is coming from the police force, the people who are supposed to sustain authority and prevent criminality. And you've seen the viral videos of people, police coming, knocking on people's doors, saying, you said this thing online.

• 2:34:37Joe Rogan?

  That's insane.

• 2:34:38Speaker 01

  So I think it's worse than just the arrests. I think it's a rotten system that is being trained by activists in the College of Policing that no government will deal with. They don't get rid of these activists, they let the, and the activists, when they're told to stop it, they carry on anyway.

• 2:34:57Joe Rogan?

  The entire culture has to shift.

• 2:34:58Speaker 01

  That's what I mean.

• 2:34:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:00Speaker 01

  That's what I mean. You need a politician to go in and say, scrap the college policing, strip out all the activists within the NHS, within the army, within the police, within the Crown Prosecution Service.

• 2:35:10Joe Rogan?

  It also has to get so bad that people realise how bad it is and they need radical change.

• 2:35:14Speaker 01

  But I think the grooming gangs did that.

• 2:35:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:16Speaker 01

  I think the fact that we effectively sacrificed thousands of kids on the altar of ideology. The fact that we said, you know, there were politicians, councillors, doctors, social workers, saying, we don't want to be called racist, so we're going to ignore the sexual assault of children on a mass scale.

• 2:35:35Joe Rogan?

  And that was not really thoroughly covered here in America in mainstream news.

• 2:35:39Speaker 01

  I think because Elon.

• 2:35:40Joe Rogan?

  No, online it was, but not in mainstream news.

• 2:35:43Speaker 01

  So do people not generally know about that?

• 2:35:45Joe Rogan?

  They know about it now.

• 2:35:46Speaker 01

  Right, okay.

• 2:35:47Joe Rogan?

  But it wasn't something that you would see every night on CNN.

• 2:35:50Speaker 01

  Really? That's a huge story. But that, that, the power of being called racist became so intense. I mean, even, you know, that horrible bombing at the Manchester Arena at the Ariana Grande concert? In the subsequent report of what went wrong, one of the security guards said he saw the perpetrator with the rucksack and he didn't approach him or apprehend him because he was afraid of being called racist. That was the reason. Oh, God. And as a result of that, two dozen children lost their lives. Oh, my God. The, the, the power of, of, of smearing someone as racist is so potent, which is why I think here in America, the word fascist, the word Nazi gets thrown around so much because they know if someone is so branded, you disoblige yourself from having to engage

• 2:36:33Speaker 01

  with their ideas. They become this kind of monster that you don't have to even think about or worry about. Right. And we're just, I think we're just getting over that in the UK now where the accusation of racism no longer really sticks. I think people think it doesn't mean anything anymore. And, you know, they've tried with reform. They've tried saying that reform is a racist party. It's a far-right party. No one's buying it anymore. And I think that's why, hopefully, something can change. I think the grooming gangs, I think the mass immigration, to the extent where people now are at risk. They just are. Unvetted people, many with criminal records. We don't want to go the way of Sweden. I mean, you know how bad Sweden's got, right?

• 2:37:12Speaker 01

  You know, Sweden used to be the most high-trust society in Europe, low crime. They allowed mass immigration on a scale they couldn't possibly contain. I think it's now 20% of Swedish population are now foreign-born. And predominantly, they live in ghettos where crime is rife. They didn't integrate. There was no expectation they should integrate. And as a result of that, it's gone from being one of the safest countries in Europe to being the, the country that has most gun and bomb attacks of any country not at war except for Mexico. And that's happened in the space of 10 years. It's an absolute trap. I remember when it was going on and a Swedish stand-up friend of mine, Tobias Pearson, texted me saying, there's gun, there's grenade, grenades going off in Stockholm,

• 2:37:56Speaker 01

  there's gunfire on my street, there's, and the politicians are doing nothing about it. They're saying this doesn't matter. I was in Sweden a couple of years ago. I was, I was talking to a bunch of, and they, you know what Swedes are like, they're very middle-class, very, well, not all of them obviously, but very liberal, very, like, not a racist shred in their body. And they all came back to the same story. They all wanted to discuss immigration. And they all come back to the same thing. One woman said to me, I got this wrong. We got this wrong.

• 2:38:21Joe Rogan?

  Why do you think they did it?

• 2:38:23Speaker 01

  Good intentions, first and foremost.

• 2:38:25Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:38:26Speaker 01

  Okay, well, there's, there's a

• 2:38:27Joe Rogan?

  Really? You think it's just good intentions to let all those people in?

• 2:38:30Speaker 01

  Have you met Swedes?

• 2:38:31Joe Rogan?

  I have.

• 2:38:32Speaker 01

  They're so lovely.

• 2:38:33Joe Rogan?

  Come on. It's happening in America. It's happening in England. It's happening in the UK.

• 2:38:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:38:37Joe Rogan?

  It's happening in Ireland. It's happening, it's just good intentions everywhere.

• 2:38:41Speaker 01

  Could it also be, could it also be this delusion, this idea, what you would call, I suppose, liberal universalism? This idea that everyone is basically the same. Everyone in every culture basically wants the same things. It explains the queers for Palestine phenomenon. You know, every, it doesn't matter where you go.

• 2:38:58Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, no. The queers for Palestine phenomenon is explained by the internet and people being stupid and being in a bubble where they never experienced those folks. I don't think, I think this is organized. I think it's organized. I think the more chaos there is, the more they can crack down on your rights.

• 2:39:13Speaker 01

  I know you think it's organized. I'm not convinced of that yet. I'm open to it.

• 2:39:17Joe Rogan?

  It's just, I mean, it's, at one point in time, it's fairly universal in Western societies now to try to ruin them.

• 2:39:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:39:24Joe Rogan?

  In America as well. For the last four years, before Trump got into office, that's what they were doing here. It seems like a strategy. It doesn't seem as simple as just good intentions.

• 2:39:34Speaker 01

  I know, well, and that does seem too simplistic. I absolutely agree with that.

• 2:39:37Joe Rogan?

  You create more chaos, the more chaos you have, the more laws you need. The more laws you need, the more control you have.

• 2:39:43Speaker 01

  But speaking to these people in Sweden, I mean, I was there, it was an event where we were talking about a book I'd written. So it was all about these issues and I was mingling and talking to them and they all wanted to talk about it, but.

• 2:39:53Joe Rogan?

  But they're the citizens.

• 2:39:54Speaker 01

  That's what I mean though.

• 2:39:54Joe Rogan?

  They're not the people that implemented those laws in the first place. That's where I'm cynical. I think the people that implement those laws in the first place, they know what they're doing.

• 2:40:02Speaker 01

  Yes, and well, certainly they're aware of the risks. I mean, if you take what happened in Cologne, that New Year's Eve party where I think it was over 800 women were sexually assaulted. And the media didn't report it and the government wanted to sort of minimalize it and say that this wasn't real.

• 2:40:17Joe Rogan?

  It's not even just the risks, it's the physical, actual measurable consequences.

• 2:40:22Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 2:40:22Joe Rogan?

  And they're not, they're not course correcting. That to me leads me to think that they know what they're doing.

• 2:40:28Speaker 01

  You don't think it could just be complete naivety, this idea that.

• 2:40:31Joe Rogan?

  I think it's the best way to combat the internet. The best way to combat the internet is create a massive amount of chaos and then crack down on people's lives.

• 2:40:38Speaker 01

  I suppose what worries me about it is though, that, that, the assumption that it's all sort of coordinated will take you down that, that route where you start thinking. As some friends of mine now think, the world is controlled by a group of Satanists who sit in a room and they choose the, you know, they choose the leaders and they, do you know what I mean?

• 2:40:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, I don't think it's Satanists, but I think it's incredibly wealthy people.

• 2:40:59Speaker 01

  But why would it be in their interest to destroy the economy that so sustains them?

• 2:41:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, it depends on where they are and who they are, but George Soros clearly does that and he's talked about it. He's talked about enjoying destroying democracies and enjoying destroying countries. He's kicked, he's not allowed to go into certain countries. He makes money doing it.

• 2:41:18Speaker 01

  But he relies on those democratic societies to make, you know.

• 2:41:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but they're still functional. He just profits off of it largely.

• 2:41:24Speaker 01

  That's what I struggle with though, like, you know, someone who believes in fundamentally the capitalist dream can't yearn for.

• 2:41:33Joe Rogan?

  You can, it's subject to manipulation.

• 2:41:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41:37Joe Rogan?

  Intelligent evil people, or at least amoral.

• 2:41:40Speaker 01

  But this doesn't, this doesn't answer why people do vote for it, and they do.

• 2:41:43Joe Rogan?

  They do vote for it because they've done a really good job of attaching it. And there's also this ideology thing, there's left and right. And if you're left, you're blue no matter who, blue to the grave, that's it. And if anybody that votes red is a dirty racist fascist, and they think about it that way. And we really have no option for a centrist party in this country, which is where most people lie. Most people lie in the middle. Most people are very socially liberal, and most of the people that I know that even identify as conservative, they're very socially liberal, but they're financially much more aligned with conservative ideology.

• 2:42:19Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, I think, I mean, I think ultimately, hopefully, that the brick wall of reality is what, is what cures this. Like, it's when-

• 2:42:26Joe Rogan?

  If we don't destroy society along the way, if we don't allow them to destroy society, if we don't completely erode all of our rights along the way.

• 2:42:35Speaker 01

  And as you said earlier, it's, you can get very close to that happening.

• 2:42:38Joe Rogan?

  And rights lost are never regained, never. Look at Australia, they had one mass shooting, they took their guns in the 1990s. Then Covid came, they're like, get in a fucking camp.

• 2:42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they've just, they've just introduced a new hate speech law off the back of the Bondi Beach shooting. And of course, this, again, is really draconian, it goes way too far. In fact, I think the Australian hate speech law is basically saying, if someone does something that wasn't intended to stir up hatred, but it could conceivably have stirred up hatred among a theoretical group or people, group of people, then it's a crime and you can get five years in prison.

• 2:43:10Joe Rogan?

  Sure, and imagine blaming that on hate speech instead of blaming it on just letting wild, violent criminals immigrate into your country.

• 2:43:20Speaker 01

  I mean, that's something-

• 2:43:21Joe Rogan?

  Imagine, what amazing gaslighting. Like, not saying, hey, maybe we should stop letting violent criminals enter into our country illegally and live here. No, no, no, what we should start doing is taking people that have done no crime whatsoever and create their dissent, create a crime based on their dissent.

• 2:43:42Speaker 01

  I totally agree. We had it in the UK, we had a politician, horrible story, a guy called David Amis. You know, he was stabbed to death by an Islamist at his surgery. You know, politicians, we call them surgeries where you meet face to face your constituents. They come and you talk about the local issues. I don't think they do that in America. He stabbed him to death. And then there was this parliamentary debate about how can we crack down on free speech online? Right? No, the problem was the knife wielding maniac. The problem was

• 2:44:11Joe Rogan?

  Gaslighting.

• 2:44:12Speaker 01

  Unchecked Islamism.

• 2:44:13Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it really is what Besmanov was saying.

• 2:44:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's that thing of not addressing the, like after the

• 2:44:19Joe Rogan?

  But not seeing the truth. Not seeing the truth.

• 2:44:21Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 2:44:22Joe Rogan?

  Because you've been captured. You've been demoralized.

• 2:44:24Speaker 01

  But I think what's better now is that people can see through that. So like when, when Keir Starmer, after that horrible, I mentioned it earlier, the girls who were killed in the dance class by the guy who was a child of immigrants. He, his response to that was, okay, let's, let's not, you know, deal with the fact that we've got radicalized individuals within our community, young people. He said, let's ban buying knives off Amazon. Because the guy got the knife from Amazon, right? You can also get them in shops, Keir. You can walk in and get a shop.

• 2:44:55Joe Rogan?

  Most people have a kitchen knife at home. It's like one of the most

• 2:44:57Speaker 01

  That's not the

• 2:44:58Joe Rogan?

  Common weapons.

• 2:44:59Speaker 01

  And he banned ninja swords around the same time, which was a big blow to the ninja community. But I kind of, so crazy, like, that's the thing you go for. You choose the thing that isn't

• 2:45:10Joe Rogan?

  But this is the idea of allowing this kind of chaos and having this be a coordinated plan, right?

• 2:45:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:17Joe Rogan?

  The more chaos you have, the more you gaslight people, the more people are attached to an ideology, the more you can keep restricting their rights further and further and further until they're more and more frustrated, until a lot of them just give up.

• 2:45:29Speaker 01

  But we are at a position now where people are seeing through it all the time. In the UK now, like, no matter how much they smear Reform as far right, the polls just keep going up and up and up for them.

• 2:45:38Joe Rogan?

  Right, but it's because of the internet, because you have at least some dissenting voices.

• 2:45:43Speaker 01

  We have that. And also, the palpable absurdities of what the politicians are trying to tell you is real.

• 2:45:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:45:49Speaker 01

  Is as, as reached such.

• 2:45:50Joe Rogan?

  That's why they're trying to crack down on pub talk.

• 2:45:52Speaker 01

  Oh, and by the way, you know, the Labour Party has cancelled a number of local elections because they know they're going to lose them. They've actually cancelled it. They've cancelled it. Well, they've said they postponed them while they're reforming the system. Right, what they're really scared. So, but it's stuff like that where.

• 2:46:06Joe Rogan?

  Get rid of the juries, cancel elections, and they're the good guys.

• 2:46:10Speaker 01

  And, and at that point, it doesn't matter how much your propaganda or how much you think your propaganda is going to work. The public are going to see through that. And they say, hang on a minute, you're saying that I can't vote. You're saying if I end up in court, I may not have a jury. You're saying I can't browse through Twitter. You're saying I can't say the wrong thing online. Enough is enough. And I think they, they, they reach a point where they say, and, and, and some of the stories are so egregious, like for instance, the guy, have you heard of a guy called Hamid Koskinen? This, um, I think he's Armenian guy who burned a copy of his Quran outside the Turkish embassy, right? The idea of this was a protest against the Turkish government because he perceives Erdogan's government as a, I suppose, supporting Islamism and the rise of Islamism. So he protests outside the thing, burns the Quran. Two people attack him, one with a knife, the other, some Deliveroo driver starts kicking

• 2:46:55Speaker 01

  him. He gets prosecuted in a court of law for inciting the violence. And the judge actually says, the fact that you were attacked is proof that you were inciting violence. Right? It took the Free Speech Union in the UK to have that overturned, to fight on his behalf, to say, that's a peaceful protest. It was his copy of his book. We don't have blasphemy laws in the UK. But now the CPS, the Crown Prosecution Service, is trying to overturn that because they want to see this guy go down. And that is what we're talking about. We've, we've got bodies like the Crown Prosecution Service saying, no, we want an Islamic blasphemy code in the UK. The Labour Party wants an official definition of Islamophobia. So you can't criticize, you can't peacefully protest, you can't burn a book that you bought. You know, and all of that, and we're seeing this happen in front of us.

• 2:47:39Speaker 01

  And people are just saying, look, we believe in plurality, we believe in freedom of religion. You should be able to, you know, we're not, we've got nothing against Muslim people. What we are objecting to is the idea that we shouldn't be able to ridicule your religion or mock your religion or protest against your religion. And you're going to pathologize it by saying we've got a sickness, we're Islamophobic. I think people, I think that case. The fact that you can't burn, I mean, some kid in a school in Wakefield accidentally scuffed a copy of his Quran and he got hit with a non-crime hate incident and there was a big issue and the police got involved, you know, we have to hold fast to this idea that, no, no idea, no idea doesn't get criticised, no, like, I, and so I just think the more

• 2:48:21Speaker 01

  stories like that happen, maybe I'm naive, but I think the British public's patience is kind of at the very end.

• 2:48:29Joe Rogan?

  I hope so, I hope it's not too late, I really do, um, but in the meantime, your book, The End of Woke, it's available, did you do the audio version of it?

• 2:48:37Speaker 01

  I did, it took me ages.

• 2:48:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm glad you did, though. Yeah, I'm sure it is, but it's always so much better when it's in someone's voice, especially someone like you. Uh, thank you, Andrew, really appreciate it, and I, I hope you guys figure it out over there, but in the meantime, I'm glad you're here.

• 2:48:51Speaker 01

  Well, I got away.

• 2:48:52Joe Rogan?

  I'm glad, I'm glad, but I mean, that's, that's, it shouldn't be that everybody has to escape, that's crazy.

• 2:48:57Speaker 01

  No, I know.

• 2:48:57Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's nuts, and then what do you, what's gonna be left, like, only people that are submitting, and then the chaos of what you've allowed in, fucking nuts.

• 2:49:05Speaker 01

  Exactly, so you've got to make sure that America doesn't go to pot, because I need this place to work.

• 2:49:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I need it to work too, part of my business model, all right, thank you, bye everybody.