The Luka Buzz, NFL Draft Scoops, and a Huge Celtics Sale With Todd McShay and Chris Mannix

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons talks about seeing Luka Doncic in person and the unique buzz he is able to bring to a Lakers arena (0:00). Next, Bill talks with Todd McShay about his NFL Mock Draft 2.0, piecing together the puzzle of the top four picks, Abdul Carter vs. Travis Hunter, a really good RB class, top 10 predictions, and more (11:48). Finally, Bill is joined by SI’s Chris Mannix to discuss the Boston Celtics being sold for a record $6.1 billion, Wyc Grousbeck curiously remaining as CEO and governor of the Celtics for three years, speculation on future roster spending, a new Celtics arena, a quick boxing update, and more (53:22). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Todd McShay and Chris Mannix Producers: Kyle Crichton and Chia Hao Tat The all-new, fully electric Audi Q6 e-tron is a new way to experience driving. Learn more at audiusa.com. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  Welcome to the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by Fanduel Sportsbook. So I went to the Lakers game last night. It was my first Luka Doncic in-person experience. I got to see some of the number 77 jerseys. Did I look around and wonder, are there more 77s than 23s in the audience? I might have looked at a couple of sections and wondered about it, but something cool really happened during the game. Luka came out. He always tests these first quarters. And this is something he always did in Dallas, too. You kind of want to watch the first quarter of a Luka game because you never know what the ceiling is going to be. Like, at some point, he's going to score 75 points in a game. It's going to happen. And he usually tests that first quarter to see if, how much he's feeling it. So he

• 0:44Bill Simmons?

  does it in this Lakers game. They're playing Denver. There's no Jokic. There's no Murray because God forbid you go to an NBA game and see all the stars on both teams. There's no LeBron either. Luka comes out. He scores 20 of the first 33 points. And you could feel a buzz building in the arena that is the sound you only get to hear when this is happening with Curry, when Curry's hitting threes. You go back in time, like when Kobe was feeling it some nights, when Michael Jordan was feeling it some nights. It's, it's the rarest sound you get at a basketball game where everybody's like, holy shit. You start looking at the scoreboard. So with like four and a half minutes left, the Lakers had 33 points and he had 20. And now everybody's like out of their minds. They, they just can't, oh my,

• 1:28Bill Simmons?

  is he gonna, could he score 100? Could he get third in the first quarter? Of course, from that point on, he goes down. He's, he's stunk in the second quarter. He wasn't good in the third quarter either. They, they win easily because the Nuggets had nobody. But the buzz in the arena, and I've been going to Laker games. I moved here in November 2002. The only other time I felt it at a Laker game like that was when Kobe was playing. And I remember the first time I moved to LA in mid-November, and I went to a Laker game maybe two weeks later. Somebody brought me. I'd never been to a Laker game before. You know, grew up going to Celtic games, East Coast my whole life, just had always hated the Lakers, hated the Showtime, never really understood it. And-

• 2:13Bill Simmons?

  I go to this game and the thing that jumped out to me, it was Kobe and Shaq. It was, you know, that was right after they'd won the three-peat. They lose in that 03 season, but it's Kobe and Shaq. It's, you know, typical, really good home game. The thing that jumped out to me, just sitting there, it was like, oh my God, these, these fans love Kobe. Like, they love him. And it was my big takeaway from the night. Like, and there, there's reasons for that, right? He's drafted by the team. He's a teenager. They get to watch him go through the stages, then they win titles with him. Shaq shows up from Orlando. He'd been there, I don't know, four, four years in Orlando, comes to Lakers. So he's a little bit of a hired gun, kind of like LeBron now. And they love both of them together, but

• 2:54Bill Simmons?

  they really love Kobe. And you could feel that during the rest of the run. You get, especially the 06 season. I remember going to a bunch of games that year. It was after the trial. They weren't very good, but he just single-handedly scores 35 points a game. And just that, at, at some point, after everything that happened with him in Colorado, it, it changed the tenor of the relationship of the fans with him in a way that people were like, this is our guy. We are sticking with him through thick and thin. Shaq's gone. Our team's not going to be very good, but this is our guy. And you could really feel it that 06 season. And, you know, the only time I can remember with a basketball player was Bird with the, with the Celtics, where it was just like, 100% approval rating. Everybody's

• 3:39Bill Simmons?

  all in. This is our guy. We believe he can do anything. And I felt like Kobe got to the point with, with the fans. Really in the mid 2000s, you could feel it the most. And there was always buzz with him. And that year was the year, you know, that was the year that, that he had that huge Toronto game, the 81. But in general, he was a threat to do whatever, night after night after night. LeBron, as great as he is, was always like a totality of what he was doing. Like the, you know, if you love basketball, how do you not absolutely love what he's doing? But the ultimate LeBron game would be like, 32 points, 15 assists, 12 rebounds. It's a little like Jokic. Jokic, we don't, we're

• 4:21Bill Simmons?

  not going to tell our grandkids, we were at a game where Jokic had 30, 20, and 15. It's amazing to watch. There's something different when somebody might have the chance to really go off. It's the rarest thing in basketball.

• 4:36Bill Simmons?

  And there was that feeling in there for a couple of minutes. So it was that plus, you know, there's performance with him where Los Angeles just makes sense. As a team that he plays for, he's working the crowd. At one point in the first quarter, some guy in red, he got fouled and Luca, Luca has 20 at that point. He gets fouled. The guy, this dumbass with the drinks like, ball don't lie. And Luca hears it and he turns around and he starts talking to the guy, talking shit to him. And now he's just interacting with this whole section. He does things that I think are pretty rare from a basketball standpoint. He does hear the crowd. He does interact with people. He does talk shit. He talks shit to the refs. He talks shit to everybody he's playing against. Like he almost got into it.

• 5:21Bill Simmons?

  At one point with Peyton Watson and you're watching, it's like, oh, watch out. Luca's pissed now. He just feels like he belongs in LA. And that was my big takeaway. I was thinking about like, if you're going to have the perfect Laker for central casting, you'd want somebody who's a little polarizing, which Luca is, right? Great player, hasn't won the title yet, little out of shape. Doesn't really play defense. We'll have quarters where he just looks terrible, then a quarter where he's awesome. And there's like always the potential of something more. And he's still great. He's still one of the five best players in the league, but it's like, I wonder what else is there. So you have that. You have the performance aspect, which Kobe was unbelievable at and LeBron's great at too. But Kobe,

• 6:07Bill Simmons?

  there was a demeanor to him at these games, especially as he really bought into it. That was just awesome. You have the no ceiling in any game you go to with Luca, which I think is as rare as it gets. And it's the thing that I think made Curry so special the last 10 years. It's like, am I at the game right now where Curry's going to hit 15 threes? Am I at the game right now where Curry's going to get 70?

• 6:30Bill Simmons?

  You have, there's a one-on-one aspect with Luca that I think is important. There's nobody in the league remotely like him. Like remotely, all the stuff he's doing, like he got in the first eight minutes of the game I went to last night. Granted, Denver's missing their two best guys, but he beats. He beats everybody up the dribble for eight minutes in a row and he's doing the herky jerky stuff. He's banging people. It's like it felt like he could post up whoever he wanted. He go by whoever he wanted. He could make 27 footers. Oh, and he's an awesome passer too. See of that, you have the Hollywood redemption comeback story because the Mavericks gave up on him. Like you could say they traded him. They got a lot back. Well, obviously they didn't get a lot back, but they gave up on him. They didn't believe that they could win

• 7:13Bill Simmons?

  a title with him. They didn't want to pay him 330 million. LA loves that. You have the Lakers outwitted another team to get him, which is it. I gotta be honest, it feels like the Laker fans have their swagger back a little because you know, you think like really since the Kobe Nash Howard year, and then they just sucked forever and they drafted in the top four and the picks were like pretty hit or miss and they missed out on guys like Tatum. And then they end up with LeBron basically because LeBron just wanted to move to LA. And then they end up with Davis because LeBron made them trade everything for Davis. So now they end up with those two guys. But for the most part, I wouldn't call it the shrewdest team over the years. Then Reeves is a great pick and then Luca is the greatest trade and maybe

• 7:57Bill Simmons?

  in the history of the league, at least since the Bill Russell trade. So you have that and then you have the night tonight with Luca where you you show up in the building and you don't know where you're going to get. And you can't put a price on that. It goes beyond the trade. It goes beyond, you know, the fact that they fleece Dallas, that they have somebody who's about to do the prime of your career. Like this guy has a chance to be Kobe for these guys. And that's the difference. LeBron came in 2018. He'd been in the league 15 years. He belonged to Cleveland. So it's a business arrangement. It was year to year and it was great and it's worked out awesome and they have a chance to make the finals this year, but it was always a little bit of an arrangement. Kobe is different.

• 8:42Bill Simmons?

  And when you go to the Staples and you see the statues when you walk in, and we were talking about like last night, we're walking in, like is Luca getting a statue here someday? You know, the statues are really smart. You go and you see, you see Jerry West, you see Kobe, you see Magic, you see Shaq, and it's like, who's statue worthy? Could LeBron get a statue? Maybe. Maybe if they make the finals this year, maybe he's going to get one anyway. But Luca, what's sitting at stake now for him is Not only can he become the face of the league, we maybe we talked earlier in the year, we're talking about face the league, face the league. Like this is it. This, this guy has a chance now to be the face of the league. Could he win titles here? Could you get a statue? And could you be one of the big celebrities in LA where night after night after night, people are going to these games to see him,

• 9:28Bill Simmons?

  to see what happens with him. And you could feel the buzz already. There's more celebrities at all of these games. The energy is different. And I'm not saying it was bad before, but the energy reminded me of what it was like. When I went to that Kobe game, it's the same thing. And you kind of either have that or you don't. And he has it. And it's one of the many reasons why that trade is fucking incredibly stupid. So I just wanted to mention that. Let's get to the rest of the podcast. You're listening to the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. FanDuel Sportsbook is the best place to bet on the NBA. We have these fun little Tuesday, Friday player performance stuff. We have same game parlays. We have picks for me sometimes and boosts and all kinds of fun things. Get ready in the playoffs. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app today to get in on the action.

• 10:13Bill Simmons?

  And by the way, The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit theringer.com/rg to learn more. Listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus, president select states, game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Hey, we launched a new podcast for The Ringer and Spotify. It is called Good Hang with Amy Poehler, two new episodes, Tina Fey and Martin Short. Check it out. It's awesome. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free.

• 10:56Bill Simmons?

  It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from September 14th to September 27th and from November 2nd to November 16th. Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. We're also brought to by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday, Days of Thunder. I gotta be honest, I didn't realize how many people like this movie. Lot of, lot of buzz out there. People pumped that we did this. New Prestige TV podcast went

• 11:39Bill Simmons?

  up Sunday night after White Lotus. We did episode five. We have episode six in the bank. That is coming Sunday night immediately after White Lotus ends. And then we don't have the screener yet for episode seven. It's gonna get dicey, folks. There's only two episodes left and we have not seen episode seven. So I will, I will keep you posted. I know you're on the edge of your seat. We're also brought to by FanDuel Sportsbook. Check them out. And we are going to have Todd McShay talking about the NFL Draft a little bit later, but first Chris Mannix talking Boston Celtics, Seattle and some NBA stuff as well. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 12:39Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're bringing in the new owner of the Boston Celtics, Todd McShay. Congratulations. Can't wait to see what he do with the team.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Pretty good money they got for that, huh? Quite the investment.

• 12:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, big six with no arena. So you have the McShay Show for us. You have the McShay Report, an excellent newsletter that is really becoming more and more exciting as we're within five weeks of the NFL Draft. And I obviously have some special interest because my favorite team is picking fourth. But I wanted to go through some of the stuff you have in here. I feel bad. Anytime I have you on, I feel like I'm stealing something from Russillo. Do I have to work this out with them? I don't know. I just feel like I'm going in his fridge and grabbing like his grapefruit juice and taking like a big swig. You're like, you're like team Russillo. I always feel bad.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, but we're all on the team now, right?

• 13:27Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah. Great. That's a good way to put it. I'm gonna tell him that. It's starting to look like one, two for the QBs, which is what you laid out in Mock Draft 2.0. Cam Ward to Tennessee, Sanders to the Browns. Can we go through all the breadcrumbs of this Cleveland Browns Sanders at number two, please? Let's hear it.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  All right, so. I mean, you turned me on to the, what is it, Bazana? I had to look up who Bazana was.

• 13:53Bill Simmons?

  Do you like how I was on deep social media trying to find weird people talking about this?

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I actually did. And I'm sitting here, right? And I'm watching tape and I'm, it was running back. So I'm like, I'm on like the eighth or ninth running back and I've got like 20 more guys to do. And then we're texting about that. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to stop down for a minute. I thought I was going to take like 10 minutes and look through and see. Then I kind of got into my own little deep dive of, all right, so. Everyone wants to say Shador's got a second round grade for a lot of teams. I talked to two, two, we'll call them sources, two personnel people, right at the combine. Who were in that, in the 15 minute interviews with Shador Sanders for teams that are drafting in the top 10. That need a quarterback.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  And I was surprised that the information that came out was, and I'll kind of paraphrase or summarize. Should it just, we got the vibe after meeting with all these other players and all the years of doing this. You, you can sense how important these meetings are for the individual player when they come in. For Shador with us. We didn't get the sense that he cared an awful lot about what we thought of, of him.

• 15:03Bill Simmons?

  Right. It was almost like he was meeting with his accountant for 15 minutes or something. He was trying to sell them.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly. And so, so I'm getting that information and I, I look at him as a player who in certain systems. Certain situations, he's got a chance to really succeed in the league, but he's not for everybody. He's, he's not a big, strong arm, mobile quarterback. He's none of those things, right?

• 15:27Bill Simmons?

  And so. Yeah. Cause the perception is, cause it's Deion's son. You just in your head, you're like, oh, he's got to be an amazing athlete. And he's actually a way more traditional quarterback.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  It's the biggest surprise you'll see. And he was talking about, I'm going to, I'm going to run faster than my dad. I'm like, I don't know if you're going to, if you were to run a 40, I don't know if you're going to break like 4.8.

• 15:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  So, so you've got all of that. And so, and now the reports come out from different people in the league. Like what, we don't even have a first round grade on them. And so I get it because in the teams that are willing to talk are the teams that don't have interest, right? So that's kind of the backdrop. And then you, you know, you, you send me some of that stuff. And I had heard that Cleveland's a place that he, that he has interest in. But that's a short list and there are some teams that I think those teams that I talked to, that he didn't have the, the, you know, overwhelming interviews with are the ones that are on the list where Coach Prime's been telling us since, what? October, November, that there's going to be some teams that I, that my son's just not going to go play for. So you start to put all these things together and I, I just took a minute and I went back and I looked at Kevin Stefanski's history.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  What has made him successful? What he's, what has he been successful with? Well, Case Keenum, he won 11 games with.

• 16:38Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  As a, as a coach. Uh, Kirk Cousins, he won 10 games with and, and a quarterback coach, offensive coordinator, like hands on with those guys. And so it got me thinking like,

• 16:52Speaker 01

  the skill sets are the same, not big, not mobile, not elite arms, but process quickly. That's his secret sauce. That's what makes him special.

• 17:00Bill Simmons?

  Would you put Flacco in there?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Flacco, modern day Flacco, still has a big arm, but not like, you know, the Baltimore Ravens in his prime Flacco and has never been overly mobile. So, so yeah, so he's winning games with these guys where pocket passers don't have these traits, but they all process quickly. They're accurate passers. That's what Shador is. And so now I'm looking at it, I'm saying Cleveland is in purgatory salary cap wise because of the Deshaun Watson deal. So if I'm Andrew Berry, and I don't have any information that's saying Cleveland is taking Shador, just to make that clear. But if I'm Andrew Berry and I'm saying, all right, the salary cap's horrible this year and it's not going to be any better next year. We maybe can get a Russell Wilson or make a trade for Kirk Cousins,

• 17:46Speaker 01

  but that's just temporary. That could help us win some games this year while we're developing a young quarterback, whether that's for later in his rookie year or for year two, but we gotta get to year two. Cause if we're drafting this high next year and talking about like Garrett Nussmeier from LSU or Carson Beck or whoever the quarterbacks are going to be next year, we're probably not the decision makers here in Cleveland. We probably lost our job.

• 18:09Bill Simmons?

  They have to get to year two, not the Browns.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 18:12Bill Simmons?

  People making the pick have to get to year two.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Correct. So it makes sense that you're bringing Kenny Pickett as a, as a backup and maybe he, he does better things than all of us expect. Uh, if forced into duty, exactly. And but so why are they still in the market for for these veterans? Well, they're not going to cost anything. And so it's they're only up. They weren't in it for Stafford. They're not in it for for Aaron Rodgers. But if they can bring in someone to help win games, whether it's the whole year or part of this rookie year for a Shador Sanders, that gives them a shot. And then if you have Shador, there's energy, there's excitement about the future. And Stefanski is one of the handful of guys in the league that I believe could get the most out of Shador and actually win a lot of games with.

• 18:55Bill Simmons?

  So we're checking a bunch of different boxes that make the NFL draft and the NBA draft so much fun, right?

• 19:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:02Bill Simmons?

  There's desperation.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 19:04Bill Simmons?

  You have decision makers like, I might not be here in a year. What's my, what's my big swing? Well, we have no salary cap space. I have the second pick in the draft. Nobody's really going to probably trade up for this. And even if they do, I won't have a quarterback. We're going six and 11, seven and 10 next year. So you have that. You have the Miles Garrett piece who was going to leave, get a trade. Something happened. He gave that one interview where they asked them, are you comfortable with what's going to happen at quarterback? And he's like, oh, yes, I am. I was like, oh, what is it? Why is he comfortable now? There's no free agent. Is that Russell Wilson's not making him comfortable?

• 19:37Speaker 01

  I would think so.

• 19:38Bill Simmons?

  Flag that one. Then you have Sanders like playing footsie on social media with the top Indians prospect, which I thought was notable. You have the dad who if his son goes second in the NFL draft, it's more money, it's more prestige, all that stuff.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  And his dad, and his dad, like, we can say all the things you want about Coach Prime and and he's not for everybody. And the way he handles things is things are, it's kind of against the establishment. So there's obviously always going to be pushback, right? But he is dialed into the league. And he knows the guys that can help develop his son. And at the end of the day, as a father,

• 20:17Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  All you want to do is put your children in a position where they have the, that can help them get the best of what they are, no matter what their career path is. And so I think he looks at it and with these connections in the league and his understanding, and he looks at it and says, you know what? I'm in a good position. Yes, he makes more money if he goes picks one, two, or three. But also with that, and it's kind of unique, there are three guys that are running the organization's head coaches that actually can coach quarterbacks. And he's not going number one where Brian Callahan is, but Stefanski is an outstanding quarterback developer and can work with him. And, and Brian Dayball, well, he's worked with bigger, you know, Josh Allens and Jalen Hurts at Alabama.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  He's worked with guys that have different traits. Brian Dayball can coach quarterbacks really well. So I think the, the combination of, yeah, he gets more money, but probably just as, if not more importantly, I know, I trust where he's going to go and the people who are going to be working with.

• 21:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And as people listen to this, you'll be like, well, of course Simmons wants him to go second because that's it's going to push out the two best guys.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  You should have seen my comments after I, I came out and I, I started talking about this. They're like, oh yeah.

• 21:30Bill Simmons?

  Simmons got to you.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Simmons got to you, right? And, and my answer is, yeah, well, he got me thinking. There's no question. He got me thinking with some of the social media stuff that I, I was oblivious to because I'm sitting here watching like RJ Harvey, the running back from UCF right now.

• 21:44Bill Simmons?

  To be fair, this started in Cleveland. Like there's people that cover the team. There's people who follow the team and they're just kind of reading the tea leaves. And it's for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. It's, they really are the only chance for them to get a quarterback who might make it. And this is the most fun part of the stretch for the draft where you have 50, 50 odds usually with a quarterback this high, right? This might be 40, 60, but you start looking hard at the 40. Be like, well, Stefanski, well, we have a good foundation around him. Well, we have no chance to get a quarterback. What if we can turn him into something like, you know, Russillo has a theory. He would just take a quarterback every year in the first round, I think.

• 22:26Bill Simmons?

  Cause it's like, it's just keep throwing the darts and at some point you hit the balloon.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:31Bill Simmons?

  In this case, if you're them, you have no other way to get a quarterback and you are absolutely murdered by the, uh, by the Deshaun thing. The Giants one, that's a little tougher one because they're not in the same salary cap that the Browns are in.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  They're not, but, but no one wants to, but Matthew Stafford, at the end of the day, he was offered the same. And I've even heard reports, maybe like a little bit more to go to New York.

• 22:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  But if you're, if you're looking at it and I say, I get two, three years left. I'm not certain that Joe Shane and more importantly, Brian Daboll is going to be there for two or three years. What's the stability?

• 23:05Bill Simmons?

  About one year. They're in the same desperation thing, right?

• 23:09Speaker 01

  They are.

• 23:10Bill Simmons?

  If they hit on Sanders, they could save the jobs.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Yes. So that's why for, for the majority of people I talked to in the league, Bill, it is a later first, maybe early second round grade for, for Shador. But for the teams that are in these very unique situations, Cleveland at two and the Giants at three, they've, they have circumstances that require them to make decisions that maybe they wouldn't make if they had six years left on their contract. They'd done a lot of winning and they didn't, you know, they, they wanted a quarterback, but they, they didn't need to reinvigorate the fan base and more importantly, show promise towards the, the future. So.

• 23:51Bill Simmons?

  This isn't Mitch Trubisky either, because this kid comes with real fame already. People have watched him in college. They've watched him do good things. They like his dad. He's got some pizzazz where it's like Trubisky. It's like, hey, he started 13 games.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:08Bill Simmons?

  He's like Darko Milicic, basically. Hey, on paper, this guy's amazing and there's really no evidence at all.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Face no adversity. Didn't have to come back for a second year where defensive coordinators had seen it the first time around. Like Shador, here's the thing that I find interesting. First of all, when you watch the tape, he's tough as nails. So forget all like the, the diamonds and, and the commercials and all that stuff.

• 24:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  This guy is an old school, throwback, pocket passing, stare down the gun barrel, take the hits and pop back up type of quarterback. Okay.

• 24:42Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  And the other part is too, it's interesting talking to, to people in the league. To a T, it's like, yeah, Prime's getting all the media attention and, and people think that that's a headache. He's not going to be a headache when, when Shador comes here. In fact, and I don't want to go into a lot of the detail and, and it's speculation and when one person's thoughts on it versus another, but Cam Ward's got a father apparently who's been very involved. And so there's, there's talk in the league of like, And it's not going to affect where Cam goes. He's going to be the first pick in the draft. But like the, the interesting part to people in the league is like, we'd be a little bit more worried about the externals with Cam than we are with Shador and Coach Prime. Yeah.

• 25:26Bill Simmons?

  And he's also had a big spotlight on him for the last couple of years, right? Then abnormally large for QB. There's one other piece. So you were talking about how he didn't do well in a couple of those interviews. Right. Or the, the vibes were off and it.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, nothing was disrespectful.

• 25:42Bill Simmons?

  No, just like, hmm, doesn't seem like he's that interested in coming to our team.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  He knows something that maybe we just don't know and.

• 25:48Bill Simmons?

  Right. So there's an NBA version of this during the COVID draft. When LaMelo ends up going second to Charlotte. And the story I always heard was they, and they have to do Zoom interviews and it's, it's like the most fucked up draft process ever. And they do the LaMelo thing and he's just really off in it. And he's distant and just seems like he doesn't really give a shit about the Warriors. And it affected how they thought about, you know, whether they should take him or not. And then it turns out he probably knew he was going, you know, Charlotte. He probably wanted to go there. And you kind of perform what your expectations are for where you want to go. Right? So if it's a team, and I could totally see it. If it's a team you don't really want to go to,

• 26:32Bill Simmons?

  you turn into a Tom Cruise in Risky Business where you're like, I don't really want to go to University of Illinois. I want to go to Princeton. Right. So if he has an inkling that he could go second, he knows in Cleveland, like obviously LeBron was there. Like you can become a big star in Cleveland, but I can see it. It's a good situation because their team wasn't bad last year. Like it's not, they're not that far away from being a little more impactful. Maybe if they had a decent QB.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  No, and they, and they need a running back. And this is, this just so happens to be the best running back class, maybe in the history of the draft. And certainly since 2017.

• 27:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  And, you know, they're, they're not that far away. They're really not. And I, I go through it. If I'm Shador and I've got assurances that it could be Cleveland, but if it's not, it's very likely going to be the Giants. I think that that probably led to what you were just talking about too.

• 27:25Bill Simmons?

  And there's no trade up team. We don't think because the Raiders got Gino. I don't think that the Jets just went in on fields. I don't see them trading up anyway. And then the

• 27:34Speaker 01

  I do hear that the Jets, the Jets could pull, could um, throw us a curve ball the first night. Don't be, let's just get it out here now. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I think there's a little bit of love for uh, Jackson Dart in that building.

• 27:48Bill Simmons?

  Oh, it seems like he's the uh, the Bo Nix of this draft.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 27:52Bill Simmons?

  Bo Nix ends up going what 12?

• 27:54Speaker 01

  He went 12.

• 27:55Bill Simmons?

  Inconceivable. He was second round, second round, second round. Oh, maybe late first round, then all of a sudden he's 12.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  And if it wasn't Denver, it was probably going to be second round.

• 28:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  In that place, it just, Sean Payton fell in love with them. Perfect fit. And then, and that's how it worked out. And listen, Jackson Dart doesn't go seven, which again, I'm, maybe let's put a 25, 30% chance at, at most at this point. New Orleans is a possibility at nine, but then after

• 28:22Bill Simmons?

  Another team that's in salary at Capel and just completely screwed and have to get a quarterback somehow.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Right. And then everyone's like, well, they brought Derek Carr back. Yeah, one more year, but this would actually be a perfect time to get a rookie quarterback as we worked through all the salary stuff. Not force him out there for year one. So I think Jackson Dart could be a top 10 pick. But if he's not, then it's like, you know, we talked about 21 to Pittsburgh um, or a team. That's the other thing. Either the Browns or the Giants are very likely to take Shador. Whichever team doesn't, the Browns are picking at 33, which is the first pick of the second round. The Giants are picking one spot after that. I, I think you'll see one of those teams, whichever one doesn't get a quarterback wind up moving into the first round.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Maybe it's to pick 19 to Tampa or 20 to um, to Denver to try to secure Jack, Jackson Dart. Um, and also to get that fifth year in the NFL, there's a fifth year option for the first round player. So you want to get that for that extra year of security as an organization.

• 29:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, in the McShay report, a very excellent newsletter that everybody should subscribe to pops right into your, it's like, I woke up this morning, seven o'clock. Looking at texts, Celtics all of a sudden got sold. Then your newsletter came. I'm like, what a great morning. I haven't eaten that coffee yet.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  It's kind of nice.

• 29:40Bill Simmons?

  You have the Giants trading up to 19 for Dart. You have a fake trade, 34 and 65 and a 26 third rounder of the Bucks.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:49Bill Simmons?

  For pick number 19. So in that scenario, the two quarterbacks go one, two. They take Hunter third and I want to talk about that in a second. And then move up and take Dart. And now they're like, we've got Dart, we've got neighbors.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:04Bill Simmons?

  Yo, Travis Hunter, who knows? Maybe he'll play both sides of the ball and all of a sudden now there's energy with the Giants.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Let's bring it back to the top four, right? It's a puzzle.

• 30:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  And we know one, we've got one of the four pieces of the puzzle with those four picks. I feel very strongly like we've got it planted in there, right? So now figuring out the other three, it's almost like the rest of the draft starts at pick five.

• 30:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Like Mason Graham and Tyler Warren and the running backs and all this. But the first four picks, it's like, how does this work, right?

• 30:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, and let me stop you one second there.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:40Bill Simmons?

  I refuse to read another mock draft that doesn't have those four going in some order. I still see drafts from like good places where they're like number four Patriots, Will Campbell. And then Jacksonville takes Abdul Carter at five. I'm like, I promise you that's not happening.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 30:55Bill Simmons?

  If Abdul Carter isn't four, they're taking Abdul Carter.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  And I put it in there because I wound up with Abdul Carter in the newsletter and the mock draft 2.0. I put Abdul Carter in there, but I'm very, very clear to my friends here in New England. Like, don't, don't get overly excited because a lot has to, a lot has to happen.

• 31:14Bill Simmons?

  So don't buy the jersey yet. Tell my buddy Jaybug, like, don't buy it yet. Wait till like end of April.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  But if Shador goes two or three, you can, you can buy two jerseys and get rid of one of them because it's going to be Hunter or Carter, period.

• 31:28Bill Simmons?

  But Hunter makes a whiff more sense for the Giants, but I thought you laid it out correctly. It makes a little more sense, but if they took Carter, that's, it's not like that's stupid. They would just have an amazing defensive line.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  I think they've prepared like most good organizations do. And I'm not saying the Giants have been, but, but organizations are in free agency. Are trying to free themselves up to take the best player in the draft. The Giants obviously have Kayvon Thibodeau and Brian Burns at edge. So you look at it and you say it's not a huge needle. Who cares? Like when you get a player like that at the second most important position, you take him. And so if, if it, if it goes where Shador is number two, they have their choice. And so that's a good position to be in. But what if Abdul goes, what if Abdul goes one or two? Or what Abdul goes to?

• 32:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  And they're sitting there three and Hunter's the only guy. Or if Hunter goes to and then Abdul's sitting there, they've got to make sure that they're covered. They, they sign, re-sign Darius Slayton at wide receiver. They, Paulson Adebayo at cornerback. So they're covered, but they're talking about excellence versus just solid players. And so.

• 32:39Bill Simmons?

  Well, you put, you put him and neighbors together just from an athlete standpoint.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Yes. And now you, now you have.

• 32:45Bill Simmons?

  Who knows?

• 32:46Speaker 01

  And then the opportunity to go get a Jackson Dart with that, as you had mentioned. So there's a lot of ways this can play out. But for New England, the only thing you really truly have to pray for is that Shador goes number two or three. Because then you get either the best or the second best player in this entire draft falling to you at four. And that doesn't happen very often.

• 33:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, otherwise you're looking at a trade back. And in a trade back, I don't know who's trading up and what you're getting. I mean, I told you my dream trade would be the Jets move up to four. Pats get Garrett Wilson. Pats give up their second round pick. So it's basically seven and 39 for, you know, for like, whatever. The Pats end up with seven and Garrett Wilson in the deal. And I'm like, I'd sign up for that. Why would the Jets do that? I have no idea, but that's my.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's where you lose me. I mean, you had, you had me on the.

• 33:40Bill Simmons?

  No, I had you. Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  But I, yeah.

• 33:43Bill Simmons?

  I can't, listen, I can't apologize for my dreams.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  No, not at all.

• 33:47Bill Simmons?

  But the thing with the Pats is I'm not, I'm not a big draft for need guy. When you're not one guy away from winning the Super Bowl. This Pats thing's going to be like a three year. You know.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 34:00Bill Simmons?

  They don't need to be like, we need a left tackle because that way we'll go eight and nine next year. Like they just need, they need awesome players and it really doesn't matter what position they are.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Well, the problem is though, if you're New England, if Shador doesn't go, right? Let's say, let's say Cleveland and the Giants pass and it goes Abdul, Abdul Carter two, Hunter three, or vice versa, then it's, then now you're, you're in, remember I said like.

• 34:25Bill Simmons?

  You're in membo, you're in membo range.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Yes, and membo's the right tackle.

• 34:28Bill Simmons?

  Taking them three, four spots too high, but you kind of have to do it, right?

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Membo's the right tackle in college and can he kick to the left side or are they comfortable with that? And Will Campbell's a pure left tackle, but he's got 32 and a half inch arm length. And that's concerning when you're using a top 10 pick, you just want it to be clean. And so, and then you got Jalen Walker from Georgia who would do great things.

• 34:50Bill Simmons?

  Edge rusher, right?

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Edge rusher who do great things in Mike Vrabel's defense, but again, you're talking about elite. And no matter what the draft, Travis Hunter, Abdul Carter are elite, they're in that top tier. To then like, it could be one of like six or seven guys with very similar grades. And now, now we are focusing more on the need.

• 35:10Bill Simmons?

  No, it's, it's Lombardi's whole thing about blue chippers. We call them red chippers and then the guys below that, but you, the teams that usually are around the Super Bowl sniffing around, you look and they have five, six, seven, eight blue chippers.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:27Bill Simmons?

  The Pats only have, has a Drake May right now, plus the nose tackle they got from the Eagles.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  What's your blood pressure going to be like when Cleveland and, and the Giants come up to, you know, to make their, like during that 25, 30.

• 35:41Bill Simmons?

  We'll know, we'll know, we'll know with Cleveland and Sanders, right? Like that, that's not going to leak out.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably.

• 35:47Bill Simmons?

  A lot of people with interest in that.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:50Bill Simmons?

  Don't you think?

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably, probably, but still like until you hear the name.

• 35:55Bill Simmons?

  Cause the only thing that worries me is are the Browns, and I would do this if I ran a team, like, do you pretend you're drafting Sanders because you want to see if the Giants are gonna flip out and maybe offer you something to flip picks with you? And you wanted Abdul Carter all along.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course you do.

• 36:11Bill Simmons?

  I always feel like, I'm just gonna represent that I'm gonna potentially take somebody.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Would know, unless you're a team behind trying to, the Giants would know if you're willing to give up that pick, you're not, you're not taking him.

• 36:24Bill Simmons?

  But they could say, if you don't swap picks with us, we have somebody that's coming in hard.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  That's the play.

• 36:31Bill Simmons?

  We might move back to 7-8-9.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  The Jets are a surprise team, the Saints, whoever, yeah, yes.

• 36:35Bill Simmons?

  And then, and then you have the Giants are now trying to use all their intel, like, find out from our guy in the Jets and how real this is. And that's what makes the draft so much fun. You're basically all playing poker with each other, but it's some of the worst poker players who ever lived.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:50Bill Simmons?

  So you, the biggest questions are Carter versus the other than QBs. Carter versus Hunter, just who has more value? And that really seems like whoever just needs whatever they do more, but they, they're pretty equal. You have Carter above Hunter, but not by a shitload, right? It's like a hair.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Basically identical. The tricky part for Hunter is what's the plan, right? And for a team like New England, I've gotten to believe it's, you don't have Drake May and say, yeah, we just drafted this guy for overall generational talent. He's gonna be a nickel corner as a rookie and eventually our starting corner. You might get 20 plays with him on offense. It's just not gonna happen. So everyone is talking about the, the moonlighting where you'd like to play him at corner because that's the harder position in terms of developing and the technique and, and being part of, part of 11 there, whereas wide receiver is a little bit more ISO, one, it's kind of like an NBA thing, you know?

• 37:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  A lot of one-on-one stuff.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  For New England, I can't imagine that would be the case. I think it would be, you're a full-time receiver. We've got, our biggest asset in this entire organization is Drake May. And so we've got to, we've got to assist that.

• 38:02Bill Simmons?

  And this is also our best chance to get a number one receiver because we struck out trying to get all these different guys. Now you're looking at Stefan Diggs and Brandon Iuk and people are coming off major injuries against a little. And it's a receiver draft that sucks.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it depends on the team, but I'll say this.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  I think Travis Hunter is more advanced as a wide receiver right now. I think Travis Hunter can be Garrett Wilson and with maybe like a touch more juice after the catch like I so I would have no problem with him being a 50 snap a game offensive player and 25 you know third downs red zone that kind of stuff on defense if you can if you can manage all that.

• 38:42Bill Simmons?

  It sounds like such a fun wrinkle for whoever gets him where if you play him at receiver but he's also like your dime back and it's just like he's in now oh my God he picked one off like just.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Right. It's this random. Dion remember when Dion would come on the field to return a punt or kick do you remember like.

• 38:58Bill Simmons?

  Or when he would line up at receiver it was like so exciting it's like oh my God are they gonna throw it to him?

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:03Bill Simmons?

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• 39:47Bill Simmons?

  Max refund $5 unless otherwise specified. Restrictions apply, including token expiration. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Audi. The all-new, fully-electric Audi Q6 e-tron. A huge leap forward, featuring effortless power, serious acceleration, and the most advanced tech of any Audi ever. Experience technology that puts you center stage, the panoramic digital stage, plus an optional screen for front seat passengers. That sounds fun. Perfect for watching the latest sports documentary. Maybe I made it. The Q6 e-tron is not just the new EV.

• 40:30Bill Simmons?

  It's a new way to experience driving. Learn more at AudiUSA.com. Always pay careful attention to the road. Do not drive while distracted. Then the draft really starts at five.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:44Bill Simmons?

  And you had Mason Graham going to the Jags and mock draft 2.0.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. The running backs are fascinating to me, too, though.

• 40:52Bill Simmons?

  Right, so I was gonna say that the Boise State kid at six to the Raiders. But then you also love Hampton and we could have two running backs in the top 12, even though one of the only things we've learned about the draft is, don't take running backs that high.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:06Bill Simmons?

  It's a disposable position. Like I was looking at the 2016 draft in the NFL. Don't ask why. And like, everybody in that draft seems so old now, like Zeke Elliott's in it. 2016 draft is like, not that long ago, like Jalen Brown was in the 2016 draft. And he's just hitting the prime of his career. And Zeke Elliott seems like he's 48. So you think about that with running backs and it's like, all right, so I'm gonna draft somebody that I have for six years. I get Mason Graham. He might play till he's 36. He might have two giant contracts.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, Cam Hayward's what, 36 now?

• 41:45Bill Simmons?

  Right. So if you're taking a running back that guy that high, you better think it's like this is Saquon Barkley, B. Sean Robinson.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  For each of those teams, you look at the Raiders and like, some of their other position, like wide receiver, there's no receiver to draft that high. Some of the other position, cornerback, like Jada Baron from Texas. But it's not like, we're not talking about, you know, one of those like elite, elite corners. You look at what Pete Carroll has had and he's not necessarily, you know, gonna be the, it depends on what his role winds up being, but Tom Brady is gonna play a big part in all of this, too. But from a From the standpoint of how they want to build it, you want to have a great defense. They want to recapture some of the Legion of Doom stuff. They want to have a, you know, a running back like a Marshawn Lynch who

• 42:34Bill Simmons?

  A big banger, yeah.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  A big banger, protect the ball, let the defense take care of a lot of the business on the field. And that's what Jinty is in terms of an every down back. He, the missed tackles forced and like he's just, he's a special back. So that it makes sense for that organization and for that pick where they are. Cause it's not like they're passing on this elite pass rusher or corner or wide receiver that they, that they shouldn't for a running back. And then for Chicago, they handle their business so well in free agents.

• 43:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Three offensive linemen, they're protecting their quarterback. They, they could go tackle with that spot if Will Campbell's still there. But I also, I have concerns enough with drafting a 32 and a half inch arm tackle in the top 10. And if we bring in a running back to go with Deandre Swift, how much more are we protecting our, our quarterback by having two backs? And so if one goes down, we still have a top shelf back. If both are in there, they're keeping each other fresh. We can run the football, we can take some pressure. I don't know. And we saw what Ben Johnson did with Jameer Gibbs and how quickly that, that offense went from, you know, 90 to 100. With that, the one player really.

• 43:50Bill Simmons?

  So Will Campbell, if Will Campbell had 34 inch arms, he'd be the fourth pick in the draft.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Could be, yeah. Isn't that crazy? There's only three starting tackles in the league at the end of the year with sub 33 inch arms. So you're, you're playing it. It's kind of, Parcells used to say, we don't, we don't want a roster full of exceptions, you know? So that, that part's concerning.

• 44:16Bill Simmons?

  If you're a GM, would you ever take a running back in the top 12?

• 44:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:21Bill Simmons?

  I don't think I would either.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Especially not this year when I'm looking at guys like Quinshon Judkins from Ohio State and Cam Scataboo, his tape I liked even more than I thought after watching the awesome things he did this season.

• 44:34Bill Simmons?

  That's my dream scenario for the third round for the Pats.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  I don't know that he's gonna get, I don't know that he's gonna get there. He might not, but, but even if not, you got RJ Harvey from UCF. You've got DJ Giddens from Kansas State.

• 44:46Bill Simmons?

  But you know this though, when there's too many, guys start dropping because nobody ends up taking, like even think about last year with the wide receivers that got so stupid and the Pats ended up with the 10th guy in the first 35 picks who was a receiver.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:59Bill Simmons?

  You know, I, I think there's a, they know all of a sudden Cooper goes to the Eagles at 39. He's the third best defensive back on the board. I don't know. I just feel like when there's a glut, it really fucks things up.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  And so, and sometimes though, when you look at it and say, well, I can get those guys later. Sometimes it's like, hold, hold, you know, and then all of a sudden one goes and there will be this, this run. But I think everyone's going to kind of wait to see where the dominoes start to fall before they jump in. Cause no one wants to draft, no one wants to draft the running back over some of these other premium positions, even if you're talking about pick 40. They'd rather wait.

• 45:37Bill Simmons?

  But I would say the, the Gibbs and the success Detroit had with him as a weapon would make people think like, ah, maybe in the 12 to 15 range. I always look with the draft, you know, and I'm start, I'm already starting to think about NFL over unders and the win totals and can somebody get, like when the Eagles got Jalen Carter that year, it's like, oh, that's, that getting that guy at nine, Jesus, like that, that might affect. And when you look at the teams that are picking the first 15.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:06Bill Simmons?

  The one that jumped out to me was the team you mentioned, the Bears. And I have no idea if they're going to be good and they're in a brutal division and who knows with Caleb, but they, they spent a lot of money. They have the QB on the rookie scale. And then if they just crush the 10th pick somehow and got somebody awesome, then you just have to start thinking like, ah, look at this, like that Tyler Warren, the tight end. I don't know where he's gonna go. He could go five, he could go 12, but like, if they got him at 10, that's somebody that could play right away and be, you know, potentially like an impact dude right away. So that was the team I was looking at. And then the only other one was,

• 46:44Bill Simmons?

  was Atlanta, just because I think Atlanta with Penix and they have some talent, the division sucks. Like if they are able to nail that pick, that could be a good one, too.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Going back to the Bears, it's kind of what I said earlier, like the good teams, they, they plug all the holes so that they can pick, pick the best player available. They do have a luxury pick and you would say, well, how do the Bears have a luxury pick? Well, that would be in a, to a certain degree, a luxury pick, but it fits what they want to do.

• 47:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  But the other part of it is, maybe you say a 10 and you draft an offensive tackle, or maybe you draft a, an edge rusher, like a Mike Kel Williams from Georgia.

• 47:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Because they are picking it, I've got it right here, 30, 39 and 41 in the second round.

• 47:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  And so if I, I love Omari and Hampton from UNC at running back, but what if I just take a stab at one of these pass rushers and, and look at what like the Eagles.

• 47:38Bill Simmons?

  What if I load up on my D? Yeah.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Load up on my D, go get Cam Scataboo, go get Quinshon Judkins, one of those guys at 39. I can still draft an offensive lineman or, or defensive player with that 41st pick. So there's different ways to, to look at all of this. And that's why I think it's going to be fascinating. We, we're going to see at least two running backs in the first round. I think three. I don't know that we're going to see two in the top 10, but we could.

• 48:01Bill Simmons?

  Believe that. You know? That's what with T Mac, I wonder like, with this is the reverse of a glut. When there's nobody at a position, he's the only probably first down, first round graded wide receiver. He's one of the only two that you could even see going in there. And somebody just needs a receiver and you get people in our office like, ah, fuck it. We need a receiver. And all of a sudden he's going 11th. You know, because we see that version of the draft too.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  I just.

• 48:24Bill Simmons?

  Wow, you're taking them here?

• 48:26Speaker 01

  I think everyone wants to be so quick to look at the highlights and the spectacular plays, and they are spectacular. And then they want to look at his size. And then they want to look at the report from Schultz, was it that where he ran a 448? I talked to some scouts, they had closer to 445, somewhere in that range. Regardless.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  I, I don't see the dog in him and I don't see the refinement and Drake London wasn't overly refined. He needed a year before he could be a thousand plus yard receiver, but that's the comp, right? Tall, just acrobatic type of guy, but they're, yes, the shades of, but they're not, they're not the same player.

• 49:06Bill Simmons?

  So But does somebody look better if there's not, if there's not a lot of competition in a draft?

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 49:12Bill Simmons?

  And then they start to look like the hottest girl at the bar?

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And, and he will go, I mean, he could go as high as Dallas at 12, let's say. Uh, but I, I had him going later in the first round. I had him going to the, um, to the Ravens. Kind of at that point, best player available. They could use another receiver.

• 49:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Probably go somewhere in between that range when it's all said and done. But I'm betting on Matthew Golden from Texas. If you need a receiver, like that's why I gave you Dallas.

• 49:37Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  I've got two and then a Mecca Buka could be the third that sneaks in from Ohio State. We'll see how he runs it his pro day, but he would be the third that I think has a good chance to go.

• 49:46Bill Simmons?

  All right. Two more questions.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Let me give you another name real quick.

• 49:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  If you're not getting the receiver that first pick at 38 for New England, Jaden Higgins from Iowa State.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Do a little work on him.

• 49:59Bill Simmons?

  I've watched, I've watched some YouTube on him.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  They're looking for, they're looking for

• 50:03Bill Simmons?

  Feel a little burned after poke last year in the, in the thirties with the receiver. I'm, I'm, I'm hurt. My guard's up.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  I know, but I'm just saying he, he's a name that fits what they're looking for.

• 50:12Bill Simmons?

  Second to last question, who is the holy shit? This guy's going here, top 15 guy. If you had to guess, the guy who just goes 10, 11 spots higher than you ever could imagine. Last year would have been Bo Nix. Like if we were talking about that draft, five weeks for the draft, they're like, and you said Bo Nix is going to go 12, I would have been like, what? That's insane. He's not going 12. Who is the, that's insane guy?

• 50:37Speaker 01

  I mean, I think Jackson Dart could be. I'm just looking at it right now.

• 50:41Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Um.

• 50:43Bill Simmons?

  Is there a weird left tackle, like maybe on paper guy that we're not, that could be late? Like Membro already rose up in the top 10.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  I'll give you a guy. Everyone coming out of the combine. Nicky Manwary, right? From South Carolina, really good player.

• 50:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  I don't think an elite player yet. I think he's still getting there. I think used in the right scheme. I'd love to see him, um, it with, I would say.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Trying to think of Seattle would be a perfect spot, right? McDonald, the way he, he, what he did Baltimore, Hamilton, I could see that being a really good marriage. But even worry was, was like almost six, four, 220 pounds. His combination of like size 40 time, which is four, four, flat and, and vertical broad jump. It had never been done in the history of the combo. Like he's that special of an athlete. It was awesome to watch. I still think the other safety who ran after him and ran a pedestrian time and didn't jump like him. And I think Malachi starts from Georgia could wind up being a top 15 pick ahead of even worry. And I think that would surprise people right now.

• 51:52Bill Simmons?

  Last question. Russillo stretches for a half hour, goes out to Manhattan and tries to run the 40. But he's stretched, he's limber and he's ready. And we have scouts there and a stopwatch. What is Russillo running right now in the 40?

• 52:09Speaker 01

  We haven't talked about this publicly, but what there's no better place to do it. I texted Russillo the other day with the old, the old line of, um, of, uh, the town, the movie, you know?

• 52:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  I can't tell you what we're going to do. You can't, you can't, you know, you can't.

• 52:24Bill Simmons?

  His car we taking?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  And I said, I, my, your answer needs to be who's, who's car are we going to take?

• 52:30Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  And that was in regards to, I wanted, I want to take over his house for the third day of the draft and do a live stream from there.

• 52:38Bill Simmons?

  I can't wait.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  So this, so we're announcing that right now without permission, but I figured.

• 52:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Who's going to yell at me? You, right? But I, I would love to do, to do that as part of the day three of the draft to get Russillo to run. I'm going to guess.

• 52:54Bill Simmons?

  Cause he's, I mean, he's really, he's got a lot of muscle right now, which I think would hurt for the speed, but it also may help. Maybe he's in great shape. I don't know.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  493.

• 53:06Bill Simmons?

  493?

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:08Bill Simmons?

  So you're under five.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  He's a friend.

• 53:14Bill Simmons?

  That's fair. That was really, really nice of you.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought so.

• 53:16Bill Simmons?

  So publicly, you'll go 493.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  I would be more interested in like the three cone or the short shuttle, the lateral agility with all that weightlifting. I just can't see that, that ending well.

• 53:26Bill Simmons?

  What, what weightlifting out of all those things they do in that, what would he crush?

• 53:31Speaker 01

  The bench press.

• 53:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  The bench.

• 53:33Bill Simmons?

  So huge bench press. That's what the teams are talking about after. Like, Jesus, Russillo benched 580.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  But I don't see him as a fullback. So I'm trying to figure out where we're going to roll him.

• 53:44Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you seem like a, like a, what was that guy in the Niners? Usyk?

• 53:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

• 53:50Bill Simmons?

  Like a guy Belichick would have taken in 2007, just like I just want him for special teams.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Teamer effort.

• 53:56Bill Simmons?

  I like his attitude.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Kind of like that celebrity basketball game he played in. I'll never forget that.

• 54:01Bill Simmons?

  Oh, is he still mad about it? He'll talk about it all the time. All right. McShay, subscribe to his newsletter. It's great. Listen to the McShay Show. Also great. You can find that on YouTube as well. Great to see you as always.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  All right. You too, Buck.

• 54:13Bill Simmons?

  All right. Quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down ready to watch the game only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead. But what if you went to Cancun with Expedia? Save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. 1-2-3 Cancun. Or if they do, you

• 54:58Bill Simmons?

  go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. Chris Mannix is here. You can read him on Sports Illustrated. You can listen to his podcast. What's the podcast called? Open Floor still?

• 55:12Speaker 01

  Open Floor, yeah.

• 55:13Bill Simmons?

  Open Floor. Was that, where was that on the title list as you were coming up with title names? Was it the top one? Were like two taken? Titles are so hard now.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think my, this was back like, I started that podcast before I left for Yahoo. So like, it was back then, I'm like, let's just call it basketball or something like that.

• 55:31Bill Simmons?

  They're like, no, gotta keep going. Speaking of basketball, an eight-episode HBO drama could be written about the Celtics sale where we found out today, $6.1 million to somebody that 12 hours ago, nobody knew who he was. I mean, probably some rich people knew who he was. People knew he was the final bidder, but now Bill Chisholm is going to be the next owner of the Boston Celtics. He paid a record price. It was not an accident where Washington, the commanders went for 6.05, Celtics go for 6.1. I have a million thoughts, but what was your immediate reaction to the price?

• 56:11Speaker 02

  Astonished. I didn't believe they would get over six. Look, that's a record, that's a huge number regardless, but the fact that you're just selling the team and you're not selling an arena, that is a huge variable in all this. Like when Matt Ishbia bought Phoenix for a $4 billion valuation, he was getting the arena with it. He was getting, for whatever it's worth, a WNBA team with it. You're just getting the Boston Celtics here. And yeah, it's an iconic franchise, but it's a franchise that is, costs a lot

• 56:51Speaker 02

  of money, is set to have the highest payroll ever, you know, next year. You're taking on something with a lot of bills. So I guess my first reaction was bravo to H. Irving Grousebeck and the lawyers that he hired to sell this team because I really believe that he got this. He got the absolute maximum value that is possible to extract from the Celtics at this point. So I give him, that was my first reaction, like, wow, they got a price that I didn't believe they were going to get.

• 57:26Bill Simmons?

  My first reaction, because I love being right, was I was saying last summer that this was gonna get to six and that's what the NBA wanted. And guess what? It got to six. I think that's, that was a huge thing for the NBA with the expansion coming. Six has to be the number. That's what we want. I think it was a big thing for the family, especially Irv, the 90-year-old legend, who was not going to have any sort of inside job. There's a whole Steve Pagliuca, who's the number two owner of the Celtics right now, that everybody assumed he was gonna get it. And I can't wait to dive into that piece with you. It was made clear from the beginning, there's no inside job. This will go to the highest bidder. The most money wins this. And

• 58:07Bill Simmons?

  nobody really believed it, but that's how it played out. And it got to 6-1. And my guess is that the Pagliuca group, and maybe even one or two of the other ones, got to the six. The point one is so fascinating to me. The point one, sometimes this is how it goes. This is how Larry Ellison lost the Warriors. Where it's like, no, he's, he had it, he had it, he had it. Then the other side, I think, went to, I forget what it was, like 400, 360, whatever it was. And he's like, nope, that's my final offer. And he didn't get it. And it, over and over again, the guys that get these teams are the ones that are like, oh, you want to break the Washington record? All right. All right. Point one, done. And that was it. That's how

• 58:48Bill Simmons?

  he got it. So the Steve Pagliuca piece is incredible, that he didn't get it, and that he came really close. And he did a long post today that was posted on social media. That was, I think, one of the strangest posts I've ever read from somebody who didn't own a team. That, I couldn't believe he did that.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  Can I just, that, I would call that corporate scorched earth, right? Like, it's not scorched earth like Dan Gilbert on LeBron, but it's corporate scorched earth. Where I thought the most telling part of that was a five paragraph statement that he released, was at the very end of, I think it was the first paragraph, where he noted that he had put together a group of investors that were eager to continue to reinvest in the team. I think the last sentence was, luxury tax be damned. Like, what Steve Pagliuca is doing there is, he is planting the seed.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  To be like on the other side of future Celtic fan outrage because we all know there are some tough decisions that this ownership group is going to have to make in the next couple of years. Like Sam Hauser makes $10 million right now in real dollars, though, that's like 80 million he's making. He's costing this team. There are decisions that they're going to have to make. What Steve Bagley, who in my mind did with that statement was just put himself in a position where if this team does cut some corners over the next couple of years, lop off some salaries, he can sit there and be like, you know what? I would have done that. I put together a group of guys that weren't going to do that. Like he set himself up. We can get into the dynamics there of.

• 1:00:27Bill Simmons?

  Oh, we're doing it right now.

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:00:29Bill Simmons?

  But like, this is the number one thing I want to talk about.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  Go ahead.

• 1:00:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's just, so you have these two guys. Wick's dad puts up the most money for the team. Wick's the one that's organizing the group and it starts out, I think with four people that put up the money. They, they get the price and then their job after they get the price is to then go by, find a group of minority people to then take off, offload some of the money they just committed to, which by the way, that's what Chisholm's doing right now. He's trying to, he is now, he's already put the feelers out. He's trying to put together a little syndicate to offload some of the money that he's already promised. So that's in motion now. Um, so they get the four, but Pags was always, it was like Wick and he's the owner and the dad put up the most money,

• 1:01:14Bill Simmons?

  but also here's Pags and they've had this uneasy co-owner alliance, but Wick was always the face of it. And it was always a little awkward and you could feel it when there was like a trophy. You know, that's when the Lazarine Edens had that too. Some of these co-owner like Guber and Lake of same thing where it's like, it's my team, but you have to be here and you hold, let's hold the trophy together. And it's always super awkward.

• 1:01:38Bill Simmons?

  And I don't know how great it was going by the end because I think when when Pagliuca tried to buy the Nets and I don't, I don't think Wick found out from Pagliuca is my understanding. And I don't think it's been great since then. And I think the reverse of that was Pagliuca found out that the Celtics were being sold the same way we all did. It was, it was, he was not tipped. He was not given a heads up. So I don't think that relationship has been great for the last year. And this specifically, the way he reacted to the sale tells me that this is, this is going to get ugly. And I have some reasons for why this got bad near the end. But what, what else have you heard on this?

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  I, it's, I, I've seen it unfold over the last 20 years and you can unequivocally say it was a lot stronger at the beginning than it was at the end.

• 1:02:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  And some of that has everything to do with what you said there. Like Pagliuca is in this kind of with his own cash to what, I don't know what the final percentage is that he owned of this group. I heard, heard around eight or 9%, something in that ballpark. And he's looking at with Grousebeck who owns a lesser percent of the team, but is a fact, is effectively H Irving in all this. Like he is the money guy. He gets to be the face of it. And you're right, there, there have been some moments over the last six, seven years as this team has ascended into conference finals, NBA finals, ultimately championships, where, you know, they're not exactly pulling the trophy kind of away from each other, but you can see some of that tension between those two guys. And look, I, I don't know

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  about you, but I had been hearing for months now that, you know, through Pagliuca, it's kind of telegraphing this to people in the NBA that he believed he was going to get it. Like it eventually was going to play out that he was going to get control of this team. It might take a little bit, a little bit longer than people expected, but he was ultimately going to grab control of this team. And you can just tell from that statement that he's furious, that he is completely bullshit right now, that he is not going to be the majority owner of the Celtics.

• 1:03:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, so I think he, from what I had heard, that he had the money to get to five, which was where they were hoping it was going to be in the fives because that's a realistic price for a franchise that doesn't have an arena.

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:55Bill Simmons?

  The Grossbeck side wanted more. They wanted more. They're pushing the number up. And I think one of the ways this really went sideways, there was, there was a moment in this process where stuff was getting leaked out about the sale and there was an unflattering piece about, you know, that it came out and I don't even know what Wick's exact stake is, but how small Wick's stake allegedly was with the Celtics and they're shooting too high and there was stuff and I, I don't think that went great for Pags. And whether, whatever he may have done or not done, and he, maybe he did nothing. But I think there was a feeling that somebody was trying to neg the price and make it lower to try to make it. And I, I think you look at 90 year old Herb Grossbeck,

• 1:04:40Bill Simmons?

  who's like one of the great business people, the last, like really respected, respected as a thinker and he's tutored a bunch of people and he's a mentor to a lot of people. And he's just, he's rich for a reason. And I don't think it went over very well. That stuff started coming out that they wanted too much for the team. Cause ultimately who's saying that? It's either, it's like the Fenway group who I don't think ever was going to try to do it anyway. Or somebody that was already actively trying to buy the team and there weren't a lot of people at that point. So I think from the moment that happened, when those stories came out, it started to get dicey and there's a lot of people in the organization who are rooting for him to get it because he was stability. It's like, if he comes in, everything will remain the same. And I think when that happened, people started getting nervous.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  I would say too, Bill, like there were people rooting for him to get it. I do think there were.

• 1:05:26Bill Simmons?

  I was kind of rooting for him too, because I wanted, I wanted things to stay somewhat the same.

• 1:05:33Speaker 02

  I, I do think there were also people rooting for him not to get it though. Like, I think there was a faction there that didn't want to get it in part because all the stuff he's saying now, um, and I'm sure he would have said it once he, if he had gotten control of the team. And I'm not sure everybody believes him, right? Like I, I don't know that everybody believes that he would be the guy to just pour money into this team to keep it a championship contender throughout the Tatum Brown era. Like they just didn't believe him. Like he's. He's got allies within the organization, but I think he also has people that are not as fond of him inside the organization. So I think it was kind of a mixed bag there. I also don't necessarily know, because even though there was kind of a whittled down list of finalists,

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  there were a lot of people trying to buy this team and trying to get into the mix for this team. And there were a lot of people, and I heard this through NBA, the NBA state connected to the sale process. And I was hearing through those sources like that people were kind of grumbling over like, how are you asking for this when you're not giving us an arena? It's just a team and all the money we have to spend. So there were a lot of people frustrated with the price. And I think it's just as likely that some of that stuff about Wick leaked out from someone not named Steve Pagliuca as it was that it was.

• 1:06:46Bill Simmons?

  That's why we don't, we don't know how it leaked out or what happened. But I think once it happened, it changed the tenor of this whole thing where they were like, okay, fuck, fuck all you people. Now we're going to get the price we want. And you mentioned, like, there were a lot of people kicking the tires on it. You know, it was double figures. It got whittled down to five. Laurie was in it, the Eagles owner, and then for whatever reason dropped out right after the Super Bowl, or before the Super Bowl, right around the Super Bowl. I think it was after, who knows. But it went from five to four. And I, Chisholm was the mystery guy to me. I didn't, there's, even if you were Googling him today, there just isn't a lot of information about him. He's grew up on the North Shore,

• 1:07:28Bill Simmons?

  went to Dartmouth. His son plays soccer at Dartmouth and graduated in 19. He's on this like weird tech fund hedge fund thing, and he's apparently a huge Celtics fan. And that's all we know. But this is why it's so amazing when somebody buys a team like the Celtics. You go from, I could walk by you and have no idea who you are to now you're one of the kings of Boston. And I think that's, I think Wick's had a really hard time with that over the last year, knowing that there's some end game where when you're the owner of the Celtics, the room treats you a little differently than when you're not. And I think he's aware of that.

• 1:08:02Speaker 02

  Which, you know, leads into this idea that he's going to be, you know, the governor of this team for the next three years, which I believe is going to be the case because I believe it's going to be codified in the sale agreement. Like, this is not going to be kind of whatever handshake deal Mark Cuban had with, you know, Patrick Dumont and the Adelson family. Like, I think

• 1:08:20Bill Simmons?

  Did he have any deal?

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  No, he didn't have any deal there. That's kind of what the problem was. Like Cuban went into the sale thinking, all right, well, you know, I'm, they're going to let me do this. And all of a sudden, very quickly, it was determined that he wasn't. I do think, even if it's nominal, we're going to get with Grousbeck as one of the front-facing owners of this team for the next three years. Now, I think there are going to be problems with that because if you're the guy footing the bill for the franchise, you don't, you're not going to have key decisions being made by someone that's got one foot out the door. Like, I think that there are certainly potential problems with that. But I think, look, Wick, all along, I've thought that Wick wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He would not be selling this team if he wasn't being forced to by his family. But because he was being forced to, he wanted to make sure that there

• 1:09:07Speaker 02

  was top dollar involved in the return and that he would get to hold on to his place atop of the totem pole as long as humanly possible. And it sure looks like right now, that's what he's going to get. Like, I had some people texting me today, you know, basically saying, don't be surprised if you see Wick kind of takes some of the money that he's going to get off this and try to get back into the ownership group in a smaller slice of it to stay, stay kind of connected to this team. So I don't think, look, he's not going to be running the team forever, but I don't think with Grousbeck is going anywhere anytime soon.

• 1:09:38Bill Simmons?

  So his statement, and it was funny because they released this statement from Boston Business Partners, which is the group that owns the team. Wick's the first quote in it. And he says that Chisholm asked me to run the team as CEO and governor for the first three years and stay on as his partner. Stay on as his partner. And I'm glad to do so. And then the next paragraph is the quote from Chisholm. I've never seen somebody buy a team and not be the first quote in the press release. Everybody was saying Wick was trying to do this, and he, it seems like he actually pulled it off. And you mentioned the Cuban piece.

• 1:10:18Bill Simmons?

  I never believed that as it was happening, it seemed inconceivable to me that somebody was gonna buy a sports team. And then just let somebody who didn't own that we just don't see that really happened ever. And the times we've seen it happen were like Pat Croce and the Sixers. You be the government and then it would always go badly within a year. So it says three years. It doesn't mean it's gonna be three years. So if I gave you like the FanDuel over under and I gave you the two and that like, like boxing, two and a half rounds, is it, would you go over under? If you gave me two and a half for the over under, I don't know what I'd bet.

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  I go under, I go under. I just think there's too many big decisions that are made by a team governor. Like, and I think, you know, Chisholm and his ownership group is gonna be the want to be the ones making that decision. Now, maybe there's synergy between the two, maybe there's no, no space between them, no room for daylight, they're all in lockstep, but the second they disagree on something, it's gonna be Chisholm that says, it's my team, do what you want. You want to stay in this capacity as a front-facing owner, as the governor of the team, fine, but we're doing things my way. And I don't blame him. You're putting up a valuation of $6 billion.

• 1:11:32Bill Simmons?

  You don't blame him, of course, of course he should have that.

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:11:35Bill Simmons?

  So it's Chisholm.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Chisholm, okay.

• 1:11:38Bill Simmons?

  No, I don't know, how, how were you saying it?

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  I've been, I'm kinda saying.

• 1:11:41Bill Simmons?

  You know so little about this guy, I don't even know how to pronounce his name. I thought it was Chisholm.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  I'm kinda saying in a Massachusetts way though, like we both kind of are there. Like, if I see that name, I call him Chisholm.

• 1:11:50Bill Simmons?

  Can he put like a social media thing on and be like, here's how to pronounce my name? Please call me Bill. I refuse to believe his name's William, it's gotta be Bill. His son's name's Will, which tells me he's a Bill. So here's one of the many things that I don't get about this. For that kind of price. And you're not gonna quote unquote be the governor for the first three years? I mean, now he's in his mid 50s, he graduated from Dartmouth in 91, so he's in, this is prime NBA owner, NFL owner range, like from mid 50s all the way through to mid 70s, a 20-year run. He's got the son, I have no idea if the son's gonna be groomed to have a role. With Pat Gluck, his son, I think would have been a big part of it, we'll see with this. Same thing with if Lori had gotten it, I think his son would have been a big part of it.

• 1:12:37Bill Simmons?

  I just find it hard to believe you're gonna buy this team, do the victory lap, do the press conference, figure out where your tickets are, have these huge decisions like, oh my God, if we get bounced in round two of the playoffs, we're losing a shitload of money on top of this $200 million luxury tax bill that's coming. Let me just turn over all the decision making to Wick. That seems crazy. And we haven't really seen it happen in anything else. So I'm like you, I'm, I'm watching it.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  I'm skeptical.

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  You just, this, again, there's too many personnel decisions, financial decisions to just fork over to somebody that's eventually going to sell you the rest of the team, or whatever it is in a period of time.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  I think, I think it can last for a year, a year and a half, maybe two years, but eventually something's gonna come up to cause fissures between these two sides. There's just too much money at stake for, for me to believe that it's, it's gonna be this lasting fruitful relationship. Now, I do think though, Bill, like, I don't know that the new ownership group really had much of a choice with all this. Like, I think it was presented this way, like, all right, we'll sell the team, but you gotta take all this with you. Like, if you don't take this, we'll go to option B. We have other offers on the table. Like you saw, it was the Globe story back in January, this four finalists. Like, there were people that wanted this team.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  And I'm sure that, that Wick leveraged that and used that to his advantage. Said, all right, if you want to buy this team, you're gonna put up the $6.1 billion valuation, but you're also an agree to X, Y, and Z. And that's, I think that's what they were kind of forced to stomach in order to gain control of this team.

• 1:14:27Bill Simmons?

  So, some of the questions that are left is, was this the highest offer? I'm gonna assume it was.

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  Had to be.

• 1:14:36Bill Simmons?

  But he's doing a lot of debt and all this stuff to, to, whereas, because I thought it was notable, Pat Gluck, I said in this thing, we had a real offer. He sounded like a guy who didn't get the house he thought he was gonna get. It's like, I had a real offer. I offered you all cash. I don't understand why you went with this other person. They didn't offer you all cash.

• 1:14:55Bill Simmons?

  I don't understand the Wick part at all. And, and there's another piece of this too. And I'm sure you've, you've been around the team a lot. Like he, he's pretty devastated that they're selling in the first place. And he's talked, he's talked about it pretty openly to people that ask him about it. And I, it's been a theme that has been going around the last couple of months that his, his dad pushed for this, his dad wanted to do it for the estate planning, all this stuff they said. But, uh, I think especially with winning the title last year, um, the team being really good this year. I think Wick's had a really hard time with this, even harder than maybe he's led on publicly. So just staying on now for two more years,

• 1:15:37Bill Simmons?

  but knowing that there's an end game. I, it's, it's a really weird variable. I'm excited because he's a great owner and I hope he stays on and has the same impact he had, but it's, it's weird. I feel bad. I, it's, it's weird to feel bad for somebody who just sold something for $6.1 billion, but I just don't think he wanted to sell. I don't.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  He, he absolutely did not want to sell. This was his father, and we've covered this ad nauseam, but like his father, you know, recognizing his own mortality and figuring it's better to get your affairs in order with cash and not with the Boston Celtics. Like that's, that's why. I wonder if over the next couple of years, that Wick would come to appreciate the foresight of his father here. Like I think he's getting out at exactly the right time. Like, think about what you accomplished in the 23 years you owned the Boston Celtics. You won two championships. You put together two kind of mini dynasties, you know, the one from the oh, so eight to 2012, whatever it was, Eric didn't achieve as much as it probably could have

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  achieved if guys had stayed healthy, but you got that group together. You won a championship. You pulled off the greatest draft trade and whatever history by dealing all those picks and are getting all the picks from the Nets and you rebuild the team that's been in two finals in three years and is well positioned to win another championship. Like you have, you got an A plus for ownership and not only do you-

• 1:16:59Bill Simmons?

  And you stuck with Tatum and Brown.

• 1:17:00Speaker 02

  You stuck with Tatum and Brown.

• 1:17:01Bill Simmons?

  And you became the best owner in Boston by 2025, hands down.

• 1:17:06Speaker 02

  Imagine if like- John Henry had sold the team like 10 years ago. Like, what would we be thinking about John Henry now? We, rather than stick around and watch this team slowly deteriorate, which it's going to eventually, right? Like, maybe it takes three years, maybe it takes five years, but it's eventually going to deteriorate to the point where we're look, we're going to look at them like we look at Milwaukee.

• 1:17:27Bill Simmons?

  I was feeling good. What the hell?

• 1:17:28Speaker 02

  We're going to be looking at them like we look at Milwaukee though at some point, right? Like, because they're just going to be so, you know, financially stretched that they've got to peel off some of these pieces and they're not going to be as good as they are right now. If you're with Grossbeck, like, you went out on top and not only did you go out on top, you got the greatest exit strategy one could possibly have, which in the form of $6 billion, you take your cut of and do something else. Like, you've proven you are a great NBA owner. You accomplished it. You can go on, you're still relatively young. I mean, you can go on and do the next thing if you really wanted to in professional sports.

• 1:18:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would say he was one of the most successful sports owners of this century.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  I'd agree.

• 1:18:05Bill Simmons?

  He took a team that was, had really no assets other than Pierce and no cap space and was able to rebuild it. It's the, the Pags piece of it.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  He didn't love the Pags piece.

• 1:18:21Bill Simmons?

  Well, he didn't get the Nets. He ran for governor, didn't get that. And then everyone thought he was getting the Celtics and he didn't get that. He has the Italian soccer team, but I just, he's got to be dying today. Just dying. But I, I think we all felt like this was probably coming. Like, I had hit a point where I didn't, I, I wouldn't have bet on him. And I, I think a lot of people, but the thing that I'm going to be interested to see if it floats out over the next couple of days is, did he have any chance? Was, had this turned into a situation where they were like, we're just not selling to this guy?

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  That's the next story is, you know, we.

• 1:18:58Bill Simmons?

  The next story to figure out.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  Right. We, we talked about kind of a relationship. Between Wick and Pags is not what it once was. Like, how strained have that relationship become? Had it reached a toxic level to the point where Wick Rousbeck was never going to be interested in selling the team to Pagliuca? Because that, I don't know, man, you don't release a statement like that unless you're really livid at how the whole thing played out.

• 1:19:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, and he released the statement right after they put the team for sale, right? He got one up that day, too.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  That day. I'm in. He was the first one to get in to all that. He made a clear from jump that he wanted to be the guy that bought this team and took over its stewardship. And second, and within minutes after it being announced as being sold, he had a much stronger statement that went out there. Yeah, I think that that's the next thing to figure out is like, was this just about money? Like, the fact that Celtics would get a record $6.1 billion price? And, hey, if you can't meet it, you can't meet it. Or was there more to it? Was there was the relationship between Wick and Pags something that affected the sale of the team?

• 1:20:00Bill Simmons?

  I would say yes. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now, that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras, and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with the experiences that make you feel like

• 1:20:39Bill Simmons?

  you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry. Entry deadlines, prizes, and details. There's another piece of this. Expansion coming. That's now we've established the price 6 billion if you want in 12 billion teams split it 30 ways that's $400 million in cash the owners get they don't share with the players. So Chisholm is buying in here at 6.1 he knows he's getting 400 billion back over the next couple

• 1:21:24Bill Simmons?

  years with this expansion fee so it's really 57 because that's what you know that's what Cuban forfeited that's what the gross backs forfeited by selling now you get that money that maybe goes to luxury tax I was trying to walk my dad off the ledge this morning because my dad's just like the Luca thing has spooked my dad he was like you can't say like the new Dallas owners everything seemed great and then they're trading Luka Doncic for AD and a first and Max Christie like yeah I'm worried we're gonna do something stupid now I knew what we had with Wick and it's hard to talk someone off the ledge on that.

• 1:21:59Speaker 02

  I'm more worried though not worried is the wrong word like this year is going to play out how it's going to play out I think the peeling off is going to be the housers it's going to be maybe even a Derek White you know the guys that you have ready-made replacements on the roster.

• 1:22:15Bill Simmons?

  Derek White what are you doing to me?

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  I don't I don't I'm not saying it's gonna happen I would say this though I think that this team right now as currently constructed is only protected by championships like you win a championship this summer ownership is going to bring it back right you're not going to blow up a team that has.

• 1:22:32Bill Simmons?

  You're not you're not trading Jaylen Brown to the wherever.

• 1:22:35Speaker 02

  No chance or even.

• 1:22:36Bill Simmons?

  Two weeks after the title.

• 1:22:38Speaker 02

  Or even someone like Derek White like I think Sam Hauser is probably gone like the second he signed that contract when you look what the other contract is going to be like I was like there's no way Sam Hauser.

• 1:22:45Bill Simmons?

  See I was more I was more worried about Drew because Drew is like low 30s and you know the right team that wants a vet and you think you're the Celtics and you're like this is kind of a luxury to have a guy like this those are it's it's in that white holiday grouping that could be the first to go unless I hope they keep Tatum and Brown together forever and I love having those guys as a combo and I think historically they have a chance to be something really special just two guys playing together their whole careers like that one draft apart winning titles like that's how many pairings have done that like and how many pairings have fallen apart before they got to that point so but you know if you're paying 130 million dollars a year for two guys it's almost impossible.

• 1:23:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't, I'm not concerned that something like breaking them up is, is on the table. But again, I do think that you're gonna see some guys whacked off the payroll. He saw Baylor go off the other night. Like Sam Hauser be watching that. All right, I'm out the door. Like that's, if that guy can do what I was doing. Like, I mean, that's, that, that to me is, is what you're looking at in, in the years to come. Now, if, if it gets bad, like if they wind up getting beaten the second round, you know, for some reason, not this year, but like next year, then I can see it slowly start to be taken apart. But for right now, it's more about the ancillary pieces and what you can replace them with.

• 1:24:11Speaker 02

  Like, look, they drafted Baylor and like, that was a surprise that they drafted him. They must have really believed in him because they, their payroll jumped a lot. You know, because of the guaranteed money that comes with a first round pick. They obviously believe in him and, and watched him go off against, was it the Nets the other night like that? Maybe they're justified in, in believing that, that he can be the cheap alternative to Sam Hauser and be your seventh, eighth, ninth man coming off your bench.

• 1:24:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, the team's in a weird spot. They're stuck at second. You have Cleveland stuck at first and the Knicks probably stuck at third and you have a month of the season left. And all crappy teams for the most part on the schedule and it's like a, let's try to keep everyone healthy. Let's try to give these guys the minutes. They're doing this interesting strategy with the best guys, Tatum and Brown, but the way they won't play them or they'll play them real minutes. They're not doing like play 25, like they're either playing them a playoff game minutes or not playing them. And they have the luxury to do whatever they want and try to get Shireman and people like that going.

• 1:25:10Bill Simmons?

  I think they're, I just think they're better than Knicks and that, uh, if they lost to the Knicks, that would be catastrophic because they've had their number all year. And everything's heading toward this Cleveland series. And Cleveland's just lost three games in a row and for the first time it's uh the Russian is cut. It's just a little bit of of that. And I I just think they feel like if everyone's healthy and KP's in there, we're gonna be in the finals again. It seems to be the attitude, right?

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  Uh, it, it, yes, that's the attitude in Boston. I would also tell you that there's not overconfidence in the front office or the coaching staff in Cleveland either. Like I just finished this story on kind of on Evan Mobley, but on a lot of bunch of young guys in in the NBA that are potential difference makers in the playoffs and talking to people in Cleveland, even though they're two and two against the Celtics during the regular season and, you know, they they played really well in Boston, coming back to to win that game. They recognize that they have not yet gotten the Celtics best shot. Like they haven't gotten that championship round haymaker to make a boxing analogy. And they know that's coming. They have to figure out how they, they don't know yet how they respond to something

• 1:26:20Speaker 02

  like that. And look, the the guy that worries them the most is Kristaps Porzingis. Because look, they've got Evan Mobley and Evan Mobley's been great all season long, but Evan Mobley does not play well against Kristaps Porzingis. You look at some of the numbers, they're not great. And that's a matchup that the Cavs know they have to dominate. Like they, if it's a wash between Mobley and Porzingis, the Celtics win in six. Like they have to completely dominate that matchup between Mobley and Porzingis. And I'm not sure they're capable of doing that. I think Porzingis, when he's right, both ends of the floor is great. Uh, so I I think in Cleveland, they're happy with what they've done. No doubt about that. They're surprised by a lot of things, but but they're not sitting there going like we're whatever 10 games up on Boston, we're 10 games better. They know that a conference finals series is a totally different animal.

• 1:27:04Bill Simmons?

  Well, one other thing is they they kind of blew the home court against OKC if they are able to get to the finals. They just lost that in five days.

• 1:27:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:13Bill Simmons?

  They had a chance to basically control their own fate the whole way. Now, OKC, and you know they'll turn it on. So from a Celtic standpoint, that's potentially looming uh looming down the road. Um, I I love the way Tatum's playing and and, you know, for me, it's, I just want to know who's on the team in round two. Is KP there? Am I, am I reading stories from people like you with like, eh, KP, hopefully in game three, he'll be back. Like if we're going down that road, I think it's gonna be really hard to win. And then the West, who the F knows beyond OKC. I've changed my mind 20 times in the last week, even since we did the Sunday pot. Like I, I don't know what to expect in the West. So, um, we'll see what happens.

• 1:27:57Speaker 02

  Can I just, just to put a button on the, the, the, the sale and the team.

• 1:28:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:02Speaker 02

  Al Horford thing is the first big test, right? Like Al Horford is, his contract's up right at the end of this year. Like he's still invaluable, right? Like the way he's playing, you gotta bring him back. Like, how much are they willing to spend? Is, is it a no brainer bringing back at a two-year deal at kind of similar money as he made last time around, which is going to cost you a ton of money as well? Like that, that to me is the first test of how much this ownership group is willing to spend on this team because he's going to cost you something in real money over the course of a new deal.

• 1:28:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, and there's been, if you look at the history of the team, there's been some Al Horford moments over the years where most of the time they've let the guy go and kept their fingers crossed. In this case, you could make a case, he's the most beloved Celtic teammate that we've seen. I was trying to think, I was talking to somebody about this, about is anybody more loved by the people that play with him and coach him than Al Horford? Like that Laker game was so fascinating when the Lakers were going at him and he started talking shit and Tatum was talking shit. And apparently there was just a lot of shit talking on both sides. They kept going at Al, he's talking shit. And when he came out of that game, they, the bench

• 1:29:13Bill Simmons?

  like went like crazy. They were so fired. They just absolutely love him. Um, and I think that would be a really tough one to leave. That's even, that's not James Posey. We want a title with you. Oh, it would suck if you left. This is like, he's in the fabric. Tatum and Brown grew up with the dude, you know? So that you're right. That's probably the first big test. My feeling is if you spend that amount of money on a team. And you want to impress people in the city you grew up with, you're probably going to spend money the first couple of years, but we've seen these new owners come in and they're absolutely nuts. Here are my ideas. We're gonna do this. We're gonna zag when everybody's zigging. And it's like, oh, boy, here we go.

• 1:29:51Speaker 02

  They're still doing it. They're still doing it. Like Matt Ishbia did that ridiculous ESPN interview where he was talking about, we're building around Devin Booker and he's the guy we're gonna keep like, not to take this a different direction, but Devin Booker is too old to win a championship in Phoenix. Simple as that. Like, he's not too old to win a championship or lead a team to a championship. He's too old to lead that team to a championship.

• 1:30:12Bill Simmons?

  Because that would be five years from now.

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  Yes, because he's eight, look, he's aged, next season's aged 29 season next year. Like, now is the time you do, like, now is the time to sell the Celtics as a franchise to kind of bring these two together. Now is the time to sell the team. Now is the time to deal Devin Booker. If Houston comes a calling with all your draft capital, offering it back. If Oklahoma City calls and says, here's three or four players plus three or four draft picks, you are crazy if you're Phoenix and not doing that. That's some of the new owner craziness that's still out there in the league.

• 1:30:42Bill Simmons?

  You think there's a new arena in 10 years?

• 1:30:44Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:30:45Bill Simmons?

  I do too. I don't see, we should have talked about that sooner. I don't see how you spend this kind of money, but then also don't buy, build an arena.

• 1:30:52Speaker 02

  There's also places you can build it, like the seaports become cool again. Like, it wasn't when, you know, I was younger and probably when you were younger back there, but now it's become like this cool place opposite Southie and there's room to do stuff down there.

• 1:31:04Bill Simmons?

  There's stuff near 93 that, that, the place they were looking at for the Olympics, if you go back and read the Olympic stories from 2014, there's a specific spot like past where, where Emerson plays soccer and lacrosse, like when you're driving by going toward the Cape, there's this whole section that is the spot that they're gonna make like the hub of the Olympics. And I feel like that, I think it's called like the rail yard or something. I think that's where the arena would go. That's really the only open spot that's in the city in the right way. Or it could be Seaport, but I mean, Seaport's already really hard to get to back and forth now. For putting 19,000 fans there would be a little rough.

• 1:31:45Speaker 02

  They'd have to reinvent the, the tee there and, and figure out, you know, new stops that go into that area.

• 1:31:51Bill Simmons?

  I would put it right on the other side of the hill in Charlestown. We're going right in the town. Like 12,000 seat arena. Let's fucking go.

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  I mean, that would be.

• 1:32:02Bill Simmons?

  Taking our mojo back.

• 1:32:04Speaker 02

  I would love to see it, but there's just no way you're not buying this team and like renegotiating your lease for TD Garden, which already by NBA arena standards is old. It's bottom third in the league in terms of, of, of.

• 1:32:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's another, there's another possibility of it too, where you can, there's a second part of this where you try to buy the Jacobs side and the Bruins in the arena and try to own everything. Because if they leave that arena, the Bruins are screwed, right? They have this 35 year old, when it was, when it was Fleet Center 95?

• 1:32:38Speaker 02

  95, I think it was. My first year, my first year was a ball boy with the team was the first year.

• 1:32:43Bill Simmons?

  Oh, nice. Yeah. So 30 year old arena, and then you're going to lose your basketball team in like 2005 years. I don't see it.

• 1:32:52Speaker 02

  Not enough U2 concerts you could put in there that.

• 1:32:55Bill Simmons?

  Manics, before we go, uh, where am I with Bakoli?

• 1:32:59Speaker 02

  Oh, he's back. May 3rd, May 3rd.

• 1:33:02Bill Simmons?

  You told me, you told me not to bet on him.

• 1:33:05Speaker 02

  I did.

• 1:33:05Bill Simmons?

  You told me it was a money grab.

• 1:33:07Speaker 02

  I did.

• 1:33:07Bill Simmons?

  You told me he was flying across, across the world and had 14 hours before the fight and was just going to try to throw some bombs and it probably wasn't looking great, but he was getting paid more than he's ever been paid in his life. So I didn't sell any of my stock on your advice, but I'm still a little worried because he's got his ass kicked.

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  I, I'd be less worried because it wasn't like a, you know, eight round ass kicking. He took a shot, the top of the head that completely discombobulated him.

• 1:33:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:36Speaker 02

  And you saw his trainer, Billy Nelson. I mean, I have Olympic gymnasts have not gone up on an apron faster than Billy Nelson got up there to throw the towel in right there. Like he was, he was ready to.

• 1:33:48Bill Simmons?

  Early stoppages ever.

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  He was ready to throw that in because his guy did his job. When that first bell rang, Martin Bakoli had done his job. It was hilarious covering that out there because like Billy Nelson flew from Scotland where he lives and usually trains Bakoli. Over to Riyadh, but Bakoli had to fly like premium economy through a connection because what I was told like the Congo doesn't allow private jets in on like short notice. You can't just fly a private jet in and out of the Congo. So he had to fly like Ethiopian air, a connection through Ethiopia to get there. He got in literally 2 o'clock in the morning. There was no chance on God's earth.

• 1:34:28Bill Simmons?

  The fight, the day before the fight, 2:00 in the morning.

• 1:34:31Speaker 02

  The day of the fight, like 2:00 in the morning, the day of the fight. Saturday morning, 2:00 AM, he got in. And then of course, they have him doing like three interviews when he gets there. Like let the fucking guy go to bed and try to get some rest before he's got to report to work in 12 hours. I'm not, I wouldn't sell your stock. He's fighting on May 3rd on this Canelo undercard over in Riyadh. He's fighting F A Jagba again. They're keeping that fight there. He's fully capable of beating F A Jagba. He didn't take, really, I mean, he took one good shot. He flew over from the Congo and took one good shot, got out, got a paycheck, which I thought I heard was about 3 million bucks. And, you know, was able to go back to work the next day. So I'd still keep my Martin Bakoli stock. He's going to weigh in the 200s for this next fight. He's probably going to beat Jagba.

• 1:35:15Speaker 02

  I think we're once again talking about him second half of this year.

• 1:35:19Bill Simmons?

  I didn't tell you, but I put a small bet on.

• 1:35:21Speaker 02

  Oh, you're insane. I try, I try to tell you.

• 1:35:23Bill Simmons?

  I know, but I can't not bet Bakoli KO. It's like a blind bet. I'm just betting it every time. I had to do it. So Canelo, May 3rd, are we excited for that fight?

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:35:35Bill Simmons?

  That was your answer. When do we get Canelo Crawford?

• 1:35:39Speaker 02

  September. So Canelo Crawford, like the worst kept secret in boxing is that Canelo Crawford is happening in September. It's going to be promoted by this new Dana White, Saudi Arabia, Nick Khan promotional company. And it's going to be on Netflix. Like that's going to be a Netflix event in September. And, you know, there'll be some big names on that. This, this whole card on May, it's entirely designed to get Canelo that fourth title back. William Skoll has that belt. So you get in that belt back. You can say Canelo is the undisputed champ going against Crawford, the two-time undisputed champ. It just helps sell the fight. Like that's, that's, that's really what that card is for. It is going to be in prime time, though. I think it's interesting. Like.

• 1:36:21Bill Simmons?

  On a Saturday night?

• 1:36:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're gonna fight and readd at like 9 a.m. is what I heard or 9 to 10 o'clock in the morning to make it prime time over in the U.S. So

• 1:36:30Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:36:31Speaker 02

  It will be a good time for U.S. audiences to watch. Maybe not so much for the guys fighting on the undercard who might be fighting at 5 a.m., but it'll be interesting that that timing.

• 1:36:39Bill Simmons?

  And the NFL will have started at that point and college football will be going. So it's gonna be an insane weekend. Well, we'll see how much boxing Netflix does.

• 1:36:48Speaker 02

  So Netflix-

• 1:36:49Bill Simmons?

  They're definitely intrigued that that Tyson fight, I think, was a jaw dropper for them. And it seems like they're gonna be dabbling a little bit more.

• 1:36:56Speaker 02

  So their plan, what I was told, was to do like one big event a quarter. Like, that's the mindset of Netflix. Like, they're not gonna try to be Dzone or what HBO was and do fights every weekend. That's not their their bag. But they are doing this Katie Taylor, Amanda Serrano trilogy fight at MSG. That's July 11. That's gonna be on Netflix. Like I said, I think the, yeah, 100% sure at this point that the Canelo Crawford fight is gonna be on Netflix. They're also after Anthony Joshua Tyson Fury. Like, that's a fight they want to put on, which is such a huge global event. They'd love to get their hands on that for either end of this year or early next year, whenever Tyson Fury decides to rejoin the the boxing ranks. So one per quarter right now is my understanding of what Netflix wants to do.

• 1:37:39Bill Simmons?

  So what's the fight of the year? If you had to bet, if you had to bet on one?

• 1:37:44Speaker 02

  Like, the best fight-

• 1:37:45Bill Simmons?

  Canelo Crawford's not the fight of the year. No, just what's gonna be 2025's fight of the year when it's December 31st.

• 1:37:52Speaker 02

  So Canelo Crawford's not gonna be it, because I mean-

• 1:37:54Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:37:54Speaker 02

  I actually think it was too, too, too big, too strong, too good. Uh, well, I, I, I'm dying to see a Devin Haney, Ryan Garcia rematch. Die.

• 1:38:05Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:38:07Speaker 02

  So those two guys, like, that, that weekend, I'm gonna be in New York, working the three fight card that's in Times Square. That's gonna be on Dzone. That's, and Ryan's at the top of the bill, Devin's at the co-main event. Both those guys are in against the points that they can and should beat. And that would set up the rematch between them. And like, given what happened in the first fight-

• 1:38:26Bill Simmons?

  This time, we're not cheating the rematch?

• 1:38:28Speaker 02

  This time-

• 1:38:29Bill Simmons?

  No cheating allowed rematch?

• 1:38:31Speaker 02

  This time we're using multiple Ryan Garcia, because Ryan Garcia believes that he was screwed by the testing agency that got caught him, he's using two now. He's using the one that that did it the first time because he has to, and he's using another one to test him just to get verified information that he that he believes. But that's a big one, man. That's two 25 year old, six year old guys.

• 1:38:51Bill Simmons?

  With a lot of bad blood, like probably the most bad blood that we have.

• 1:38:54Speaker 02

  Press tour is gonna be awesome. Like, I'm all in for that.

• 1:38:57Bill Simmons?

  All right. Mannix, great to see you.

• 1:38:59Speaker 02

  You too.

• 1:39:00Bill Simmons?

  Thank you.

• 1:39:01Speaker 02

  You got it.

• 1:39:01Bill Simmons?

  All right. Thanks to McShay, thanks to Mannix, thanks to Surdy and Gahow and Kyle. As always, I hope your March Madness brackets go great. Don't forget to check out Good Hang with Amy Poehler, two episodes up, rewatchables, Days of Thunder, Prestige TV, if you missed White Lotus, that's up there. And then Celtic City, episode four, coming Monday night on HBO and Max, Larry Bird shows up. And guess what? He was really good at basketball. So that's what we got. I will see you on a Sunday.

• 1:39:53Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, WildHorse9, John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner.

• 1:40:38Bill Simmons?

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