Ant Middleton Opens Up About His Personal Demons, Being "Cancelled" & His Spirituality

Ant Middleton is an adventurer, military vet, television host and author who is has become a majorly respected authority when it comes to survival and endurance techniques due to his experience within the elite and special forces. He went on to become of only a handful of those able to complete the military’s gruelling “Holy Trinity”, serving with the Paras, the Royal Marines and Special Forces (in the Special Boat Service, sister force of the SAS). He has served on military tours of Northern Ireland, Macedonia (peacekeeping), Sierra Leone and Afghanistan (in 2007 and 2008). Ant has remained grounded in a philosophy of embracing personal power and individual responsibility at all times. Ant has a very straightforward view of manhood and describes his peers as 'military alpha males'. Ant readily admits that he has been 'exposed' to so much that it's almost impossible for him to feel an adrenaline rush at this stage in his life... Most recently Ant has been caught up in a media storm after Channel 4 axed him from SAS: Who Dares Wins after five years, the broadcaster said that ant’s 'views and values we not aligned to theirs'. This is his first in-depth conversation he recorded since he was “cancelled”. Ant, Thank you for your honesty. This weeks episode entitled 'Ant Middleton Opens Up About His Personal Demons, Being "Cancelled" & His Spirituality' Follow Ant: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/antmiddleton Twitter - https://twitter.com/antmiddleton Website - https://www.antmiddleton.com Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  One of the things that I say is the most courageous thing you can do above all bravery is this is the personal life that I really keep to myself. You know, I've spoken a lot about it today, which I've never spoken about before.

• 0:21Steven Bartlett?

  Ant Middleton. Ant is an adventurer, a military vet, a television host, an author, an entrepreneur, and one that's become highly, highly respected as an authority when it comes to things like survival and endurance and leadership techniques. And due to his experiences as an elite special force member, he can talk about these things in a way that nobody, nobody else can. Ant has very, very recently been at the center of a huge media storm where he was quote unquote cancelled with his biggest show to date SAS Hudes Wins being axed by Channel 4 after five years. And the broadcaster came out and said that Ant's views and values

• 0:59Steven Bartlett?

  weren't aligned to theirs. This is his first in-depth conversation that he's recorded since he was quote unquote cancelled. I've watched countless amounts of interviews that Ant Middleton has done, but the side of Ant that you're going to hear today is one that even he admits himself that he has never fully shared before. I'm going to say it, this podcast lifted a ton of weight off my shoulders and answered maybe the most important question about life that we all must ask ourselves if we are going to be happy and if we're going to be successful and if we're going to be free. Ant, thank you for your honesty. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening,

• 1:44Steven Bartlett?

  but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:54Steven Bartlett?

  And when I was reading your book First Man In, there was this quote at the end of one of the chapters, and I thought it was a good place to start this conversation today, because I tend to think that it's probably one of the more foundational pieces of information, well, it might lead to one of the most foundational pieces of information to describe who you became in your life and what you've gone on to achieve. And this is what you wrote at the end of the chapter. It says, it's called making friends with your demons. Having dark forces living within us is part of being human. They're the result of inevitable damage of life. Each one of us has a choice. Make these demons work for us, or turn them loose against us. And slightly linked to that, on the same page, you wrote, most of us have horror stories we can tell you about from our childhoods. It's not the

• 2:39Steven Bartlett?

  horror that defines you, it's how well you fought it. What did that mean?

• 2:44Speaker 00

  I think that's just a generic message to everyone to say that it's okay to have, you know, bad thoughts. It's okay to have these demons inside you. They exist in all of us, you know, but the important message is to exercise them. Because the moment you lock them away, the moment you lock these thoughts away, the moment you lock these demons away, the moment you lock any negativity away, all it's going to do is take over like a mold, and it's going to completely engulf you, and it's going to go into control you as an individual. And it's only because I've been there and I've done it, whether that's what I've done in combat, losing my father at a young age, losing my mother, seeing bodies

• 3:26Speaker 00

  blown up around me, seeing dead people around me, seeing the effect it has on families, seeing what my decision, pulling that trigger or not, has on a certain person, or has on a certain family, or has on a certain situation. And it's ultimately being okay with who you are. That's the whole thing about it. It's being, acknowledging that, listen, We're not perfect. We're human, okay? We have weaknesses, we have insecurities, we have these horrendous thoughts sometimes. Now, you'd be allowed to say that you don't sit there sometimes and, you know, the things that go through your head, if you actually voice them, then that becomes a problem.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  That's you not exercising your demons, that's them exercising you. And it's just about acknowledging that. And I acknowledged that from such a young age. I acknowledged that from a young age when my father passed away and I couldn't really understand what was going on. Can you tell me about that? Um, yeah, my father passed away when I was five years old. And um, within a few months, a new man came into our life, um, my stepfather. Um, and then within two years, we up moved to France. So we lived in Portsmouth, we had to move completely to France, a new situation, a new environment, a new man in our life. And I can just remember thinking, I remember going into a bush.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  Um, in the fields where we lived in France, um, after a couple of months we were there and I sat in this bush. And the magnitude of the situation was so overwhelming, I can just remember looking at the road and thinking to myself, what am I doing here? Why, why am I here? What's the purpose? I, I couldn't grasp anything at that young age. And it was during that moment when I let everything go. And I can just remember thinking to myself, don't try and understand what's going on. Don't under, try and understand who this man is and where he's come from. Don't try and understand why you're in a different school, speaking a different language, because you can't. Don't try and understand, all, all of a sudden you're living in caravans.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  We moved, we were living in a couple of caravans, we, we, we're a big, big family, um, from houses. Um, and I can just remember dropping everything and thinking to myself, understand what you can, can understand. And that, at that young age, what I could understand was what I was feeling, you know, I could understand myself. So when I look back on the the death of my father and as I flip everything into a positive, even though years and years and years down the line I'd done this. You know, the death of my father actually made me self reflect from the age of six or seven. So I've been self reflecting, you know, understanding my emotions, understanding how I feel, understanding my demons, understanding, you know, the good parts of me, the bad parts of me, the weak parts of me, the strong parts of me,

• 6:21Speaker 00

  the positive side of me, the negative side of me. And I've been really breaking it down from such a young age. And

• 6:29Speaker 00

  that's given me an advantage in life. I genuinely believe that that's given me my sort of bulletproof mindset on how to tackle anyone or any situation today. So even though it's a traumatic um part of my life and it affected me all the way up to my mid twenties in a in a bad way where I'd go out and try and understand who my father was, try and understand. You know, I never went to his funeral. Um, I never went to to to his grave. You know, my parents, my I say my parents, my stepdad, because he came in my life so young, I called him my dad. Um, they never told me where he was buried. He was just completely cut out of our life.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  Um, because of the situation beforehand, you know, for him to come into our lives a couple of months after, it was pretty obvious that my mum was obviously having an affair or there's something going on. And again, I'm not judging anyone or the situation, but you know, so when he came into our life, it was like, right, you call him dad. My name changed from Aaron to Middleton. Not a lot of people know that. Really? Yeah, um. And this whole new life was just forced upon me, forced upon me. So I was either forced to act or force not to act. You know, sitting in that bush, me forcing not to act was probably jumping in the road. You know, thinking, right, listen, enough is enough. Did that cross your mind?

• 7:57Speaker 00

  It was a big road. It was a big road and.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  It never got to that stage where I thought, right, I'm gonna take my life, but it was like, you know, there's, there's an easy option out of here. Do you know what I mean? It's like, there is an easy option out of here, but it never crossed my mind to, to, to do it. But I can just remember thinking of that road, thinking, the cars move fast there. Do you know what I mean? If you wanted to, it's more like, if you wanted to.

• 8:23Steven Bartlett?

  So it crosses your mind.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, it crosses your mind, but it doesn't register, if that makes sense. And it's only, you know, throughout these few years, when you start to reflect back on, on, on who you are and what you've been through, you start to go, bloody hell. And actually, maybe I was thinking like that at a young age. So, um, but then again, you know, who I am, I, you know, I'm honest with myself, I'm honest with my demons, I'm honest with, with, with who I am. And ultimately, I'm, I'm honest with, um, with knowing that we're not perfect.

• 8:53Steven Bartlett?

  You know, a lot of people, and you've described it there, they never make, they never admit their demons to themselves. And what ends up happening is those demons run the show, but from the back room.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 9:05Steven Bartlett?

  And you know, I guess you see that a lot with people that have come back from war as well, because they don't get the, uh, the support they need. But.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  I see it during war.

• 9:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  I see people, level-headed, intelligent soldiers lose their head on the battlefield, come running past you, doing things that you think, wow, where the hell did that come from? You look into their eyes and there's fucking nothing there, nothing there. And then boom, they flip out and you're like, do you realise what you've just done? Like, like, you know, it's,

• 9:45Speaker 00

  you know, those demons are fucking strong. They're there.

• 9:49Steven Bartlett?

  How do you address them?

• 9:50Speaker 00

  You have to exorcise them. And, you know, the way I exorcise my demons is by getting like-minded.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  Similar people in the same room in a safe environment. And I might drink myself into oblivion till three, four in the morning, you know, chatting about what we've done, chatting about old times, chatting about who we are. And then boom, I'm done for six months, you know, I've, I've, I've, I've released those demons. When you, you know, intoxicate yourself with alcohol, you know, it allows you to talk and I'm not saying go out there and do that, but that's just my way of coming from a drinking culture, i.e. the military, a drinking and a fighting culture, that's the way that we deal with things. And for now, now it might be a blowout where, you know, I go out and you know, I'll have a nice meal and you know, we'll have a few glasses of wine, you know, we're in a

• 10:39Speaker 00

  private room and we're, we shoot the shit and you know, just talk about whatever we need to talk about, whatever's on your mind. But also physically, I exercise my demons physically. You know, I put myself in horrendous situations in order to fight against myself. Um, Everest is a prime example of that.

• 10:55Steven Bartlett?

  I was gonna say, yeah.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  Um, you know, I didn't have to go up during the storms. Uh, you know, if I was the normal sensible person, I would have went up after that storm went.

• 11:07Steven Bartlett?

  So just for context, you, you decided to climb Mount Everest with a buddy of yours at probably the worst possible time and you got into a little bit of a predicament up there.

• 11:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly that. Um, to say the least, yeah. But it's, it's one of those where

• 11:22Speaker 00

  I didn't just wanna walk up on a nice sunny day, you know, and, and gain nothing from that experience.

• 11:29Steven Bartlett?

  Why, why, why though? Like, why are you voluntarily putting yourself through chaos and what anyone else would perceive to be agony? Why are you choosing that?

• 11:38Speaker 00

  That's me exercising my demons.

• 11:40Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 11:40Speaker 00

  That's me, you know, pushing myself to that limit. That's me having tasted that drug of.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Living on that line of life and death. And a lot of people think that drug's adrenaline, but it's not. I don't feel pumped, I don't feel, I feel ultimate peace. So, people find this bizarre, but when I walk that line of life and death, which I've done multiple times. Um, it's a pure feeling of euphoria. It's not what you think where you feel pumped and your, your eyes are red and you've got this aggression going through you and you have to get through this moment. It's like, life is so uncomplicated, Steve, so uncomplicated. You're either gonna live or you're going to die. All the bullshit, all the complications of life that is implemented on you.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Whether that's through government, whether that's through work, whether that's through family. All of that goes and you are left with the most purest form of life. And it's so uncomplicated that it's so euphoric, it's so peaceful. And when you hear of World War One and World War Two poets, they're writing poems in trenches. People are like, how the hell are they writing poems in trenches? I understand that feeling because life is so uncomplicated, it's so pure, it's so peaceful. That they're writing with no stresses, no complications, no bullshit. It's just, it's coming from the purest form of life of, I'm either going to live or I'm going to die. And it's that feeling that I chase.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  I chase that feeling where I just want that moment of peace, of pure and utter peace for ten, fifteen minutes. That drug I chase and that's crossing those boundaries, crossing those lines, crossing any limitations to the edge of life. You take that step, you're gone. You go over that edge, you know, you're gonna feel it, you're gonna feel alive, you're gonna feel everything that you need to, that you need out of life. Um, but for me, that's exorcising my demons. So whether I do it psychologically, whether I'm putting myself in situations that I'm saying stuff that I believe in, that I value, that, that is a message and it's being contradicted,

• 13:58Speaker 00

  or whether I'm pushing myself to a physical limit or putting myself in a, in a physical situation, which is uncomprehendable to, to the, to the everyday man or woman. But it's because I've tasted it, I've had the misfortune, I've had the burden.

• 14:19Speaker 00

  Of tasting that drug. And will it be the end of me? I can't say that for sure. I can't say that it won't. I can't say that. You know, I've never put myself in these situations again because I find myself constantly doing it. But for me, that is exercising my demons. And everyone's demons are different. Everyone's situation is different. Everyone's emotions are different. Everyone's DNA is different, but that's me exercising my demons.

• 14:46Steven Bartlett?

  What are the other, if any, moments from your early years that went into shaping the man you became? Was there anything else? Because I, I hear you in your books and in your writing and your interviews continue to cite that, that, that sort of trauma with your father and your, your stepfather then coming in and, and being the way that he was. But there was, was there anything up leading until, you know, your twenties that you cite as being pivotal in who you became?

• 15:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, when I joined the British military, I joined the army at the age of 16. I'm just going on to 17. And I came from a background of French culture. You know, I'd go out and drink coffee when I was 14, play bowling when I was 15. You know, and all of a sudden I get thrown into a male dominant organisation. The culture, drinking, fighting. You fit in or you fuck off. It's as simple as that. So what do you do? You try and fit in. But when you try and put a, a round peg into a square hole, you know, you're, you're going to get stuck. And you either stay stuck. Okay, you go and you go around pleasing everyone else, or you pull yourself out of that situation. And that's ultimately what I done with the army.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  I spent four years in the army, then left because of that situation. It wasn't me. I wasn't this aggressive young lad that loved drinking. I'd never used to drink. I was always polite, always respectful. I'd walk past someone, I'd tip my hat. You know, in France, you say bonjour, you know, you just have a little chat. You do that in England when I was 16, 17, walking past someone, nodding at them. They're like, what the fuck are you looking at? No, it, it used to shock me and I used to think, I'm only saying hi mate, what, you know? And that was a pivotal four years in my life where I thought to myself, right, I can either fit in to this UK culture.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  Or I can pull myself out of it. And for the first four years, I found myself fitting in and I found myself being good at drinking. Found myself being good at fighting. I found myself being good at being a fucking dickhead. You know, because that's what I needed to be to fit in. So again, those were demons that I discovered along the way that I found that I was good at. So would I let anyone take the piss out of me anymore? You bet it, no, because you're gonna get, you're gonna get a good hiding. You know, would I, would I go out and, and, and drink and fit in? Yeah, of cour-, of course I would, you know, it's, hey, one of the lads, I wanna fit in. Do you know what I mean? I'm so, I'm so far detached from all of that.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  But if I'm this young, polite, respectful, sort of multicultural individual, then that's gonna be a more of a hindrance moving forward in, in what I need to do, especially in the military than it is a benefit. Hmm. So you find yourself turning into this person. I can just remember, I was about twenty one and I went to Macedonia and I worked with the French Foreign Legion out there because I could speak fluent French. And I worked with the French Foreign Legion a bit and I saw how they were. They're very, very mature, very sort of, you know, going back to that French culture. You know, they're family orientated, very, I thought to myself, wow, this is, this is who I am.

• 17:57Speaker 00

  And when I got back off that tour, I can just remember going to the squadron bar. I was in nine parachute squadron, war engineers, going to the squadron bar. We'd just done a six month tour and going to the squadron bar. And I remember walking in there and I remember seeing someone, um, a staff sergeant, probably about thirty five, thirty six, you know, I'm a young twenty, twenty one year old, drinking from a, a boot, from an old desert boot, right? And he's drinking piss, being, drinking piss from a boot. And I can just remember looking at him thinking. If I continue the way that I'm going, that's gonna be me in fifteen years' time. Hmm. And it scared the hell out of me. I can remember just thinking, I've got to get the hell out of here.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  And I walked out of that bar and the next day I put my notice in. I was like, this is not who I am. This is not, you know, I've gained more demons from this four years than I have any friends, any benefits from it. And that was a pivotal point, that was a pivotal point in my life where I thought to myself, wow. You know, I can either go, I can either change in such a way and just be stuck in this square hole, or I can pull myself out, rebuild on the foundations that I have of knowing that I'm a good person. And you, and from there, you handed in your notice and what happened next?

• 19:21Speaker 00

  From there, I handed in my notice and, and I left and um I found that in Civi Street, I was acting the person that I never wanted to be in the military. Right. But I'd found that that had followed me, that that had taken charge of me. You mean be specific. So those demons that um, those demons that had sort of identified themselves within that four years were running the show. So when I got out, I joined the Metropolitan Police and I was acting like a proper squaddie. You know, going out drinking every night, you know, cheating on my exams, um drink driving, you know. I got all the way through training, a couple of weeks ago, um a couple of weeks to go, passed all the tests, I got caught drink driving, boom.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Kicked out the um, kicked out the Met, um out of the training um in Hendon. And but it didn't bother me. I was like, yeah, you know, once a soldier, always a soldier. And I was living in the past and being someone who completely wasn't me, but who had control of me. And then getting into, into the street life. Now I got into the street life where, you know, fighting, not gangs, not gangs, but that, that social circle where, you know, you have to uphold a reputation where you, and the one thing that I, you know, well, I say the one thing, but the thing that I was good at that fitted me is I was a good scrapper. I knew, I know how to scrap, I know how to drink, I know how to fight.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  But you find yourself reverting back to the person.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  Who you never wanted to be and I suppose that was a defence mechanism. I knew that that worked in the UK. I'd never trialled and tested anything else. Hmm. As soon as I came over to the UK, straight into the military again. Now, I spent ten, twelve years in France before that. Then boom, straight over into into the British culture. And I thought that's that's how you acted. I never knew what City Street was about. Hmm. Because um I never, I was never in it. So um it took me a good couple of years again to realise. What saved you? What held it? What pulled you out of this bit? Uh, there's one moment that that saved me. Um, I refused to sign on. I refused to take any any help from the government. Same.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Um, and I can remember my auntie, I was living with my auntie at the time. She said, Anne, you've got, you know, you've got no money. What what are you gonna do? I said, well, I'm gonna go down to the job centre. She said, why why don't you just sign on, you know, until you find a job? I'm like, no. So I was proud. I was like, no, I've never taken a penny off the government. And I thought, no, I'm gonna go to the job centre. I remember walking into the job centre, walking up the stairs, walking into the job centre. And I had my red book and the red book, when you leave the military, it's got all your all your qualifications, military qualifications, all your credentials. And I walked into the job centre and the guy obviously recognised the books. They probably have hundreds of people going there, you know, a year. And he said, oh, mate, you're ex-military, aren't you? I was like, yeah. He said, come to the desk.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  He sat down with me and then he opened up my my book and he started reading my book.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  And he looked up at me and he said, why did you leave the military? And before I could answer, I was gonna say something back and he said, well, I have hundreds of these come across my desk. And he said, this is one of the best reports I've ever read. He said, so my advice to you, as he slammed the bookshox, he went, he went, go back into that space. And I can remember just sitting there, um, I was twenty two, sitting there and I'm thinking, right, okay, he's gonna offer me a job now. And he just handed me the book and called over the next person. And I was just like, so I'm picking up the book, thinking to myself, God, he's just told me I've got, you know. But obviously, there's there's all military qualifications. There's nothing for me out there apart from empty bins or whatever it may be. Um, and I remember taking the book and as I walked down the steps of the job centre,

• 23:16Speaker 00

  um, I sat down halfway down on the steps and I had a train ticket in my pocket and probably about. Couple of quid loose change, that's that was my life. Um, this was at the age of twenty two, twenty three maybe. And um, and I can just remember thinking to myself, right? Why the hell are you sat?

• 23:42Speaker 00

  Skin?

• 23:44Speaker 00

  Nothing in your life, apart from what you, the clothes that you're wearing and what's in your pockets?

• 23:51Speaker 00

  Jobless.

• 23:53Speaker 00

  And then a moment of clarity just hit me. It's almost as if I had an out of body experience and I was looking back at the, the boy sitting on the step. And I can just remember thinking to myself, right, I'll tell you why. It's because you're pretending to be someone else. You're lying to yourself, therefore you're living a lie. You're, you, you know, you think you're better than everyone else. You know, you've got this reputation that you want to uphold, that's not you. Um, you're just, you're just a shadow of who you really are. You're not, you know, who the hell do you think you are? Because the person that I'm looking at, you know, almost looking in the mirror, the person that I'm looking at

• 24:35Speaker 00

  is exactly where he should be, sat on a fucking step, jobless with nothing. Because this isn't you. And if you wanna live in a shadow, if you wanna stay stuck in that hole, in that square hole, then keep lying to yourself and keep living a lie. And that moment, I'll always go back to that moment, whenever I get a bit above myself or a bit too big for my boots. I always go back to that moment where I rip myself apart. Because it freed me as an individual and I promise you this, and it's not cliche, this isn't some kind of fucking bullshit story that I'm telling you. It freed me as an individual because I can remember, remember standing up on them steps,

• 25:19Speaker 00

  feeling like a new man because I just identified who I was. This isn't you, get that out of your life, get that out of your life, get that out of your life, be you. And I had those foundations to fall back on.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Because I knew who I was ultimately, but it was just covered and, and, and yeah, ego, covered with so much bullshit, covered with so much complications that I'd implemented on myself. And when I got rid of it all, I was like, do you know what? I was good at the military. I've got best recruit, best P T when I was in the army. So what I'm gonna do, I love that lifestyle, but it's just around the wrong people. I was in the wrong regiment. You know, I'm gonna rejoin the military, but I'm gonna be a team player. I'm gonna be myself. I'm gonna be this respectful gentleman, hard worker that I know that I am. Do you mean, I'm not gonna go out boozing. I'm not gonna go out fighting. I'm not gonna try and fit in. You know, if they don't accept me for who I am, then so be it. The the military obviously isn't for me. And I joined the Royal Marines. I went straight down the careers

• 26:15Speaker 00

  office, straight down the careers office and joined the Royal Marines. And within a couple of months, because of my previous um military uh history, um I got in very quick. And within a couple of months, I found myself going through all marine training. And when I passed out of all marine training, I got um awarded with best recruit, which is the king's badge. And I can just remember thinking to myself, right, and you've been here before. You know, you got best recruit, best P T, you know, you rested on your laurels, went to your unit, didn't really fit in. You're in the same position now. Now, you can either use this as a positive and push forward and and, you know, go on to achieve great things, or you

• 26:53Speaker 00

  can try and fit in booze, fight, be a be a camp hero, you know, pub soldier, and just be back to square one where you was five, six, seven years ago.

• 27:06Steven Bartlett?

  There's something, and I I wanna carry on from that story, but just going back to that, I find it super fascinating that you're sat on those stairs and at a moment when your ego kind of dissolves because of the circumstances you find yourself in, um you're actually able then to go and pursue your true self. And I find, you know, I had someone sat in this chair previously, and he's the biggest investor in the world in psychedelics. And one of the things that he talks about with psychedelics is that what it does is it strips back the bullshit, your ego, the the the identity you've been living to please society. And what's left is like who you actually are. And it's and it's so funny that so many of the guests I speak to and so many of the psychologists I've spoken to talk about. In order to like find your happiness and pursue your true self, you have to get rid

• 27:48Steven Bartlett?

  of that bullshit. And what I was hearing when you were saying that is, you know, you'd you'd created this reputation and identity for yourself, which actually was leading you astray, but it was helping you survive in those circles.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 27:59Steven Bartlett?

  And this tough, tough decision to say, do you know what, I'm going to break out of that circle, leave that identity behind, throw myself into an uncertain moment and go in pursuit of like who I actually am. And everybody faces that in their life. You know, as a kid, growing up in Devon, in a school of 1500 white kids, pretending that I liked indie music and pretending I was to fit in and survive.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  Survival mechanism.

• 28:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, and I left the city because I, deep down in my heart, I didn't resonate with anybody. But I was in that small town city surrounded by 1500 white kids that liked the kooks.

• 28:31Speaker 00

  That was my army career. That was my army career.

• 28:34Steven Bartlett?

  And then 18, I was like, I'm out of here. I'm gonna go be Steve, moved to Manchester, you know, and I dropped out and I started to, and I think everybody in their life, regardless of what walk of life, you face that decision and either you've realised that you're living an identity or a life untrue to yourself, and you've gone on the journey to go find yourself, or right now, as you're listening to this, you are, and you'll know it.

• 28:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:57Steven Bartlett?

  Because the words that you've described there will ring true.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  No, that completely, I completely understand that. And that makes complete sense to me. And one of the things that I say is the most courageous thing you can do above all bravery is to be honest with yourself.

• 29:15Steven Bartlett?

  Why is that so hard these days?

• 29:17Speaker 00

  One of the things that I say is the most courageous thing you can do above all bravery is to be honest with yourself.

• 29:27Steven Bartlett?

  Why is that so hard these days?

• 29:30Speaker 00

  You know, people say to me, Anne, you know, what's the bravest thing you've ever done? And I always talk about the story of the Job Centre steps, because that took courage, that took balls, that's bravery right there. Now, I've been in rooms where bullets are flying over my head, I've kicked doors down and, you know, I've taken, I've saved life. It's like, that's not being brave, that's just me being extremely good at my job and loving what I do. You know, there's not, there's nothing to do with bravery, you know, bravery is almost forced upon you. But when you decide to step into the arena, when you decide to step into that and go, right, I'm going to face this, and put that mirror on yourself, ultimately facing yourself.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  That is the hardest but most liberating thing I've ever done. And people shy away from that and they live in the void. They live this life where they're just living in the void. I call it, I say you're on autopilot because you're lying to yourself and it's pretty simple. Therefore, you're going to live a lie. I don't care. It's, I'm not the Archbishop of Canterbury, you know, I'm like, I'm not a rocket scientist. It's, it's just simple science, you know, if you lie to yourself, guess what? You're going to live a lie. Um, but standing in a mirror, standing in a mirror and ripping yourself apart does take away all the bullshit and all the complications and it frees you as an individual. But it's, you have to do it on a regular basis. You can't just go, I've done it once, so here we go.

• 30:56Speaker 00

  I've found myself, this is who I am, because hopefully you're constantly changing. You're constantly evolving, you're constantly um adapting your mindset. You know, that's what evolution is about, you know, the, the world is designed to, to, you know, is, is it, it evolutionizes and we are designed to do exactly the same. And the moment that you, you're not honest with yourself, this game over for you. It's like, it's like you, you just wanna be just that person, you know? A lot, a lot of people say to me, Ant, fucking hell, I remember, remember me from the military? I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, they go, fucking hell, you've changed a lot. You've changed. I'm like that, I haven't seen you for 10 years. I hope I've changed. And I say to them, you haven't, that's why you're still just that guy.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  That's why I'm Ant Middleton and you're still just that guy. It's because of course I've changed. I like to think in another 10 years' time when you see me that I've changed again. Because if I haven't, I'm doing something wrong. And that doing something wrong is not being honest with myself. And it all goes back to you as an individual. No one can do that for you. No one can do that for you. And I say to every, everyone, everything starts with you. And it's it's so true. If you don't want to change, then nothing will change around you. Now, if you don't want to be honest with yourself, well, guess what? You're lying to yourself. It's the complete opposite. Therefore, you're living a lie. It's like you have to do this on a on a on a on a weekly, on a monthly basis. Anytime an obstacle was thrown in front of you,

• 32:23Speaker 00

  you can fall back on, right, to be honest with yourself. Be honest with who you are, be honest with with with you, you know, with how you tackle things and and and don't lie to yourself.

• 32:33Steven Bartlett?

  The cost of being yourself and being honest with yourself is seemingly increasing in this day and age. But, you know, I find it, I think that's a really, really valid point, one that I hadn't, I don't think expressed properly, which is, you had that reflective moment when you sat on those stairs, where you say, fuck it, we're gonna start being honest with ourselves. But then, especially as you get more successful, you know, in your media career and everything else, the forces at play trying to get you to not be honest with yourself get greater and greater. And this is this crazy sort of, I don't know, paradox, or whatever we see in society at the moment, which is, you being honest with yourself is the reason you're sat here. It's the reason you're Ant Middleton.

• 33:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:10Steven Bartlett?

  But, and that's what's made you go explode, right? But then, the higher you get, it's like, I don't know, break, you know, the the resistance for you not to be yourself becomes greater because now you've got, now you're more of a target, right?

• 33:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:24Steven Bartlett?

  Hard fucking, hard fucking life to live.

• 33:26Speaker 00

  Do you know what? I've been witness of it. You know, the council culture, the um, don't say that, Ant, because you will lose this book deal. You will lose that media career. You will lose that production. I'm witness of it right now, you know, um, I hear it probably on a weekly basis.

• 33:47Speaker 00

  But then,

• 33:50Speaker 00

  that's that square peg, round hole. It's like, no, I don't, you know, it's it's every time I think about that. And I always have two principles with everything that I do is.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Don't go out to offend, so I don't say things to offend people. Therefore, they choose to be offended. I don't say things to offend people, I just say things what I think is right, what has, what have served me. Um, good in my experiences and my career and my mindset. And the second thing is, you know, don't, don't do things maliciously. So first of all, don't go out, it's, it's verbal. Mm hmm. And also actions, and I don't, don't do things maliciously because then ultimately, yeah, you're gonna have a backlash. You're gonna have a reaction to, to, to what you've done. Um, so that's exactly what I do. I don't go out to offend, but I go out to see, to tell the truth, but I also go out to seek the truth.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  You know, and I go out to seeking the truth. Again, everything starts with you and with who I am. It's dangerous. And it's, it's, it's, it's. Especially in social media era. It's dangerous. It is dangerous, but hopefully you get past that. That stage of people realizing that, actually, this is Ant, he's not been any different, he's not. You know, voiced anything different, he's not tried to fit into a media agenda, he's not tried to, tried to blag anyone, he's not being fake. This is who Ant Middleton is, and he will always be like that. Regardless of. Yeah, regardless, but then there's that platform of not reaching that level quite yet. And then everything descending upon you.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  Um, and I, and unfortunately, there's a lot of people out there that are scared to say what they truly feel. Are scared to voice their opinions, uh, scared to, you know, voice their values. Because ultimately, it takes food off the table. It's a career stopper. When your career stops, guess what suffers after that? Your family. And then when that, when that suffers, guess what? Yeah, there's not much out there for you. You have to rebuild again. Well, all those ten, fifteen, twenty years career that you've, that you've built. All for that one moment, is it worth it? No. So what do you do? Keep quiet. What do you do? Don't do anything. Just say what they want you to say and do what they want you to do.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  That doesn't fucking rub with me. That's a sore point with me. You know, you try and you try and make me someone that I'm that I'm not like. I've been made someone that I'm that I'm not. You're probably gonna get even you're gonna get the worst out of me even more so. Because everything comes back around to who you truly are.

• 36:27Steven Bartlett?

  They're trying to control you.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're trying. It's a controlling measure. And it's like, listen, I've I've let people control my life. I've let situations control my life. And it's I've ended up psychologically, not physically, psychologically on that brink of.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  Questioning who the fuck I'm who the fuck am I? Who am I? That's what I question. And the moment I start questioning who am I? Then I know that project isn't for me. I know that that that sponsor isn't for me. I know that that TV. Um. Channel or that TV production isn't for me. Because the moment that comes into question, then it's like, hmm, you don't probably don't get who I am. You probably don't understand who I am. You probably haven't done your homework with who I am. Do I fit into your agenda? And it's like, if you don't fit into one agenda, you get bounced boom, straight across to the opposite side. Right? It's like, listen, I don't belong on that side. It's just because I don't believe in in in this this side.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  Doesn't mean I belong on that side. I'm I'm I belong in the middle. Now, people say, are you are you on the left? You're on the right? I'm like. I'm not on the left or right. I'm in the fucking middle. I'm in the middle.

• 37:35Steven Bartlett?

  There's no middle.

• 37:36Speaker 00

  But but but there is no middle because the moment that you go, you say slightly something that goes against this agenda, then again, you just get bounced straight to the other side.

• 37:45Steven Bartlett?

  The right won't recognize you, the left won't recognize you. So there's who are your enemy of both?

• 37:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's it's and it's a dangerous place to live in. It's it's it's it. It's it's a sad state of affairs, real sad sad um sad state of affairs. And, you know. Just because your values and your views are different doesn't mean my message isn't isn't the same. You know, my message, everything that I do is about positivity, is about mindset. Is about bringing people together. You look at SAS who does wins. What does it do? Makes people realize what they're capable of, makes them find themselves. It brings people together, brings families together. You know, mutiny, teamwork brings people together, escape, you know, straight talking, being honest and open and and and it it makes it makes you feel good, it brings you together,

• 38:34Speaker 00

  it unites people because they can be open and honest with themselves and therefore they know what they're capable of, self belief starts to kick in and they feel good about it's it's bringing people together, right? And that is, you'd be inhumane really to to not think like that, to not want to help people out, to not want to. So the message is is is always the same, but it's this bit in the middle, right? That you either get pushed to one side, you you can't have this sort of in the middle opinion of, well, actually, my values are the same as yours. You know, I'm all about positive change. Yeah, okay, so why why you saying my values don't fit with yours? Because I'm I'm about positive change. Look at my message for the last five, six years since I've been in the media. It's positive change, unity. Look at what I do. Everything I do, whether it's my books, my

• 39:19Speaker 00

  tours, my TV programs, everything is about bringing people together, bringing the best out of people. So just because this in between bit, I my views are different and mine are probably truthful, which people don't want to hear the truth, it's like, right, bounce off to one side. And then and then you start to get cancelled, but.

• 39:39Steven Bartlett?

  What's the answer, though? Like, so I I, you know, I hear, we've heard Piers Morgan talk a lot about this as well, and other people talk about how, you know, if you don't perfectly fit the the views or the perfect hashtag of the of the left or whatever, then um you're basically being cancelled in culture. And I I genuinely, this is a fucking, probably the most genuine question I've ever asked on this podcast, because it's one that I'm thinking about all the time, is I also see this happening. My views don't always fit the left or the right. And sometimes, like in the Black Lives Matter moment, I posted on my Instagram saying, it was actually my best performing post of all time, I said, because there was this whole narrative around like silence is violence, if you're not saying anything, then you're racist. I did a post saying like, that's obviously bullshit. As I said, it's unpopular black opinion. If someone doesn't post a black square on their

• 40:22Steven Bartlett?

  Instagram, doesn't make them a racist, people process things in completely different. In fact, the most unnatural reaction to trauma is to take to social media. So like, and that.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 40:32Steven Bartlett?

  It was, it was, it didn't fit the like. Like silence is violence narrative and and my ability and I like, of course, that's fucking true. Like, do you know what I mean? It doesn't, it doesn't fit. I understand, right? But it's no one, not one individual in the millions and millions of views of that post did could tell me there was one slide in that nine. That was, they disagreed with, but it was the feeling that I wasn't wearing the football kit of the, of the left. That made some people go, you're an awful person, Steve. And then I'd go, why? They'd go.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. You see their minds ticking and ticking and you're like.

• 41:09Steven Bartlett?

  Tell me what's wrong with the post. They go, oh, you know what's wrong with it.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:13Steven Bartlett?

  And, and I, I, I think, well, I'm, I know I'm not going to change. So when I look into my future, I go, at some point I'm going to get cancelled because my brand is building. I've got some stuff coming up on, in the media and I'm thinking, I know I'm not going to change. So what's the answer here? Like, I'm always gonna, and I know that it's getting more binary.

• 41:28Speaker 00

  What is the answer, Steve?

• 41:29Steven Bartlett?

  I came to, this is why you're here.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know, but it's like, it's like, it's like, what the answer is to be true to who you are.

• 41:35Steven Bartlett?

  And just take the, and take the fire.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  It's like, it's, you know, that's the one thing I've always fall back on is just knowing. You know, if you're an idiot, you know, if you're irritating people, you know, if you're not a good person. And then ultimately, you know, you're going to get what's coming to you and you probably deserve it. But I know that I'm a good person. I know my foundations, I'm polite, I'm respectful. You know, I, I, I don't go out to offend, ever go out to offend. I hate confrontation because of the way that I know that I can deal with confrontation. It frightens me to get into that situation because I know what I'm capable of. Okay, so I don't ever, I'm, I'm over polite, I'm over respectful. Because I think people should be treated like that. Now, I like to be treated like that. I wasn't treated like that when I started off my army career and I know what it feels like.

• 42:23Speaker 00

  Okay, and I never, would never want anyone to, to experience that. So I'm over polite and I'm over respectful and I've always fall back on that. I always look at myself in the mirror and I go, Anne, you're, you, I know I'm a good person. And that are the foundations that I've built. That's my foundations. That's who I am. Okay, so you can knock my bricks down. I will, but guess what? I will keep building and building and building. And you can knock it, even if you knock them down to the foundations, I can fall back on being true to myself. And there's no more liberating, Steve, liberating feeling than that of being true to who you are going, do you know what?

• 43:01Speaker 00

  I'm not going to fit into that agenda. I'm not going to fit into that box. I'm not going to squeeze myself in there to make myself feel uncomfortable for your agenda. Because that's not who I am. Would you rather lose it all? Yeah, one hundred percent because I've got my foundations. I've got my foundations. I will always build, Steve. Always build and this part of the building is so high now that can you cancel me? Crack on because I guarantee you I'd just keep building this side, this side, this side, this side. Because the people that know me know who I am and someone said this to me with all the stuff that's been going on lately. Um, you know, I've had some sponsors that have cancelled. I've had some TV programmes that have cancelled.

• 43:42Speaker 00

  Crack on, but the people that are by my side, the sponsors and the channels and the production companies that are by my side that have worked with me saying, and we have the privilege of knowing you. And that rung a chord to me though, I'm like, they have the privilege of knowing me. And I think to myself, wow, you've got the privilege of knowing me. I've got the privilege of knowing myself because I know who I am. And I'm glad, I'm glad I gave you that privilege and it's not being big headed. I'm glad I gave you that privilege of knowing me. Because you know that this is just a storm of words. You know that this is just media hype. You know, this is just fake news. You know, this isn't real. You know. Yeah, I've maybe got a little bit of a fiery side to me, but you know, you're getting that with me. You know, I'm rough around the edges.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  So, yeah, and I'm happy to, you know, to, to, to cut a few of the edges, but those edges are still going to be there. Do you know what I mean? So when they said that to me, and it's something that will stick with me forever and it's from a very, very good sponsor, you know, um.

• 44:43Speaker 00

  Very, um, it's to do with my books and I can just, and I remember sitting back and just taking that breath and going. Keep doing what you're doing, Anne. You're doing the right thing. And then this last week, you know, so many doors have opened. Production companies calling me, channels calling me. Um, you know, and you, you hear about it. You hear about, oh, you know, you get cancelled, then that's your career done and. But then you've got your Piers Morgans, you've got your, your Jeremy Clarkson's and now you've got your Ant Middleton's. Okay, and.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  It just goes to show that I'm doing the right thing. And that actually, yeah, I'm not gonna fit, I'm not gonna be comfortable with with everyone. And I'm not gonna be their cup of tea. Well, that's fine, because guess what? I don't want to work with you. If I get questioned one little bit about my, who I am, like I said before, if I get questioned one little bit about who I am by any brands, any sponsors, any channels, then I will not work with them. I will say, listen, thank you very much. It's obviously, you know, not the right match. Um, you go on and do your thing and I'll go on and do my thing, because I will always go on and do my thing. And that building can completely drop to the foundations. But when you're honest with yourself and you know who you are, those foundations are solid.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  You will always have something to build from. But when you're not honest with yourself and everything comes crumbling down and you have no foundations to fall on, you're fucked. That's when you're in trouble. That's when you start to go, well, I won't say that, I won't act like this, I won't do this and I won't do that. And that's when you become someone else. That's when you become fake to who you are. And guess what? Desperate times then, you're like a wounded animal. And guess what? You're probably gonna be right at the back of the pack for the rest of your life.

• 46:31Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. The psychological impact of living a life that isn't true to yourself. And I mean, this is why people have these like midlife crises when they've, even in like the professional world where they've, you know, their mum and dad have told them to go and be a, a whatever, a banker or a lawyer, they don't wanna be, they wanna be a fucking dancer or whatever. And then they get midlife crises. And you look at throughout psychology, I talk about this a little bit in my book, you know, if you look at certain communities like the LGBTQ community, their suicide rates are so, so high amongst those groups, because a lot of them have been oppressed in a way where they can't live their true life, they can't be their identity. So they've had to live a lie that's, um, live a fake life. And then you see suicide rates go up because that is a form of torture. And this is when I asked you the question about, you know, would you rather lose it all?

• 47:17Steven Bartlett?

  One would, one would actually, maybe even if I question myself, say, well, what are you losing?

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:21Steven Bartlett?

  If you're losing TV shows and you're losing things that aren't true to yourself, is it a loss?

• 47:25Speaker 00

  No, it's not a loss, because.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  You will always find something that fits you. Do you know what I mean? If you have the passion and the drive and the ambition and the positivity of knowing who you are, then ultimately the world is your oyster. It's like, you know, people have this impression of me that I'm this hard faced, drill sergeant, non accepting person. I am the complete opposite. Go and be who the fuck you wanna be. That's my message. If you have that, then don't let anyone force you into saying anything, doing anything or being anyone else. Be yourself. But this is a side that people don't see of you. Now, but this is my personal side, Steve.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  I tell, people see what they want to see. The media will write what they want to write. They will, they will make you, they will make you out to be who they want you to be.

• 48:20Steven Bartlett?

  But you can't put all of that into a hashtag. You've got to characterize yourself in 10 letters.

• 48:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 48:24Steven Bartlett?

  And this is the problem with, with issues that are complex and nuanced and there's different layers and you, if it doesn't fit into a hashtag then, and this is the football team analogy as well. I wanna talk though, going back to your, you know, when you started in the military. One thing I find, find really interesting is the guy that was running around drinking, boozing, getting in trouble. For him then to go into the military and pass with flying colors is like a massive contradiction in my mind. I'm like, one appears to be a guy that's kind of out of control. The other one and seemingly lacking the appreciation of authority. And then the other guy is one that's able to do what he's told and follow orders and, and, and how did you achieve such?

• 49:04Speaker 00

  That's what they want. That's what they need. They need the animal on the battlefield. They need the aggression. They need the violence. Because ultimately on the battlefield, you counter violence with extreme violence. Now, there's zero tolerance to violence in Sibby Street. In society nowadays, you show any form of violence, you're gonna end up behind bars. Been there. But in the military, you, you counter violence with extreme violence. You, you counter anger with extreme anger. And you're, that's needed. I, I, I needed to be that person on the battlefield. I needed to, to have, to cut myself off from any emotional sort of feelings,

• 49:49Speaker 00

  any emotional, you know, sort of discrepancies. Because.

• 49:57Speaker 00

  They were the missions that I went on. You know, I was hunting down Taliban commanders. You know, I was getting into fucking shitstorms, into firefights every week, every couple, you know, two, three times a week. I needed to put, to call on those demons to come to the forefront of who I was to get the job done. And then switch it. You're expected to switch it because one moment you're kicking the door down, you know, taking out enemy combatants. The next mo- next door, you're kicking the door down, there's women and children in there. So you, you live on that side or you live on that side. And then when you get the two confused,

• 50:37Speaker 00

  you know, you, I might be in Afghanistan, best man, put me on camp, you know, well, you can't be doing that, Anne. Well, what, what, who the fuck do you want? Do you know what I mean? You can't be doing that. You can't be, you know, getting into fights downtown. You can't be, you know, getting, you know, I used to get into a hell of a lot of fights, you know, it's fucking hell, it ruined my military career. Because, you know, but then putting three tours of Afghanistan are done, almost back to back. Perfect out there, Anne. It's put boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So what, what animal do you want, you know? And it's okay to be able to flip from one to the other when, when you're here. But when you live on the complete opposite sides of the spectrum, you're gonna get confused every now and then. You're gonna be met with a situation in society where you're met with aggression, you're met with violence and this

• 51:23Speaker 00

  demon takes over. You know, it's, and it was, is, is, is a moment of madness. It's just a, it's confusion, confliction between the two. You know, and it's between the two, two people. And sometimes it just goes whack. Yeah. And but before you know it, that crossover is too much. They're both like trained to survive, but in different environments.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  Completely different environments. And sometimes those environments, you know, you're forced to act and those environments get switched. Yeah. And it's literally like a flash in front of your eyes. It's like bang, bang. Shit, I used the wrong person there, or used the wrong environment. It's, it's, and, and that's, that's the world that I live in. That's the world that I lived in. That was my life. That was, you know, I used to come back from, from Afghanistan and, you know, I've got four, four, four, uh, four children at home, fi- um, a fifth one from a previous relationship who's nineteen, but um, I used to come home, I remember coming back from Afghanistan and my daughter was born, um, she's thirteen now, my daughter was born um, ten days

• 52:23Speaker 00

  before I left for a six month tour in Afghanistan. So she was born, so I didn't know her and I came back six months later and she was like nearly seven months. Um, and then I went straight on special forces selection, so for another six months. So I came back after like a year really of not really being at home to a, to a one year old daughter who barely recognised me. You know, she would push me away, she would, you know, and I'd interact and I'd be playing dolls on the, on the floor, Barbies. And my wife came in one day and I was playing with these Barbies and she thought I'd lost the plot. She's like, she's like, you know, I've got these Barbies together, trying to make her laugh, trying to make her smile. Because for the last year, she's just seen this pent up

• 53:08Speaker 00

  war machine, you know, and I've come back and I'm not, I'm not very easy to deal with, you know, during those transitions, you know, I need a bit of time. What do you mean by that? You're not very easy to deal with in those transitions? Well, you come back from, you can't just take a he- even though

• 53:25Speaker 00

  I can do it, I can take a head off, put a different head on. But that transition of kicking doors down to being back with a family, I need, uh, even now, when I come back off of filming, when I come back, I need, before we actually start getting on again, you know, before I start settling back into the, into, into the family, it takes about two weeks. And again, me and my partner are the best, most compatible partners in the world. The teamwork that we have is absolutely amazing, you know, hence why I've been with her for sixteen years, been married for fourteen.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  Um, but it still takes that two week period for me of me breaking her, her routine, of me coming in, you know, taking over everything, you know, with the kids, taking, taking the kids to school, taking, ruining her, her life that she's built.

• 54:14Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 54:14Speaker 00

  I come in like a storm.

• 54:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:16Speaker 00

  And it takes two weeks before that storm normally calms down and we go, all right, you know, like, I'm not arguing to this, but, you know, just disagreements, just control issues, can, you know, it's, it's like two worlds colliding, right? And then after the two weeks, as everything settles, I'm away again. I might be on tour, I might be like, I'm in Australia for two months now. It's like, so it's that constant

• 54:39Steven Bartlett?

  Readjustment.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  Communication or that constant, you know, crossing over of, of worlds that you need to really sort of mould together.

• 54:46Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 54:46Speaker 00

  And as my life is getting more and more, and I'm not in these high octane situations, I'm not in these life or death situations, um, it's becoming easier and easier.

• 54:57Steven Bartlett?

  You talk, you know, I had actually a military commander sat in, in the seat as well, who, who talked about his experiences. And when he came back from war, he was talking to me about the PTSD he suffered and, um, just being around the house and, you know, seeing the tin cans stacked on the shelf at home and, and like, you know, barking at his wife because they weren't straight and things like that and feeling that, you know, feeling some of the disciplines of war coming home with him. You, I've, I've seen you talk on this topic, so I know that, you know, you've, you've handled that in a, in a different way. But, um, what are some of the, the things that have come, come back with you from war that you don't like or that you think aren't helping you in your, in your personal life?

• 55:36Speaker 00

  Um, they're two different worlds. Now you deal with dark humour, dark banter to get you through certain situations. And that dark humour and dark banter and dark way of talking is the norm to you because you live and breathe that. And sometimes that comes out, you know.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  And only when I'm doing a military style show, you know, you, you, you come out and you might say something which is a, for me, probably a throwaway comment or a bit of banter, then you realise there's a hundred of crew members listening. And there's nothing, you know, it just might be, I might say something about someone or my, it's never direct, you know, it's always an indirect conversation that we have.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  It's that military banter that I fucking hate. Sometimes I hear myself talking like a military man and I hate it. I might say military words, hoofing, honking, whazz, you know, there's loads of them out there. And I think to myself, why are you talking like that? But it's just come, it just comes out because I might find myself in, in a high obtained situation, in a stressful situation, in a, in an aggressive situation, in a violent situation, which, which I revert back to what I know works, which is this, ultimately this military person. But then I think, fucking hell, I'm not in a military environment. I'm not in, in, in a, I'm in society, you know, I've got, you know, and it's controlling that, that I find really difficult.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  But knowing, also acknowledging that it needs to be controlled, you know, I'm not in the military anymore. You know, and I always hate this, once a marine, always a marine. You get people go, hey, once a marine, always a marine. I'm like, I was a marine 12 years ago, 10 years ago, you know, and now I'm a, I'm a media, um, TV presenter. I'm now an, an extinguished author. I'm now, you know, I like to say like, you know, about mindset, my mindset guru, go around, do my tours, you know, I'm in a completely different space, but I have to pull upon this young soldier every now and then in order to get the job done, because I know that that works, you know, I know that if I do that, but I just need to fine tune it. I need to buffer it around the edges, which again is a work in progress.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  You know, I, I put my hands up when I go, fucking hell, do you know what I mean? Yeah, I shouldn't have said that, I shouldn't have done that. You know, and I'm, I'm, I'm the first one to admit it, but people have to realise that, listen, it's, it's, it's a work in progress. It's, it's not something that I can change overnight. You need to understand me. You need to understand who I am. Um. In order to to acknowledge that, okay, well, fucking hell, yeah, that was a bit uncomfortable to see. Now, some of the things that we do with the recruits, you know, they're like, fucking hell, and like, he's on on his knees and you're you're literally, you know, saying to him that you stay there, you know, if you think you're not worthy, you know, if you're a piece of shit, blah, blah, blah.

• 58:34Speaker 00

  But it's hard for people to see that and to watch that, but ultimately, there's always a a positive motivator behind that. So that's where people, I think, get get confused is like negativity is a great fuel. It's a great source to use to get to where you need to be, but only if there's a positive motivator ahead of it. So you can't use negativity to get through a situation if there's not a positive motivator. Because all you'll do is you'll veer off in the negative lane, because there's no positive motivators to aim towards. It's like a plow. When I say the plow is is the positive motivator. And the fuel is the negativity, whether it's aggression, whether it's revenge, whether it's, you know, prove people wrong, whether it's, you know, these are all things that

• 59:17Speaker 00

  that that fuel you, but you be sure that there's always a positive motivator. So when I'm talking like that to the recruits, when I'm doing it, it's, believe it or not, it's to get the best out of them, to make them realise what they're capable of, make them bring their attributes and and and um personality to the forefront, so they can identify who they are. And a lot of people, they they are bringing that to the forefront, or I fit that mirror on them, and they look at themselves and they go, oh, no, I don't like what I see. They VW or they go or they leave. Yeah, so that's what I was gonna say. It's also a filter. It's a filter. And that's what a selection process is. And that's, but that's how I, it's not only what a selection process is, that's how I live my life, Steve.

• 59:59Speaker 00

  I'm I'm so brutally honest with what I do and situations I find myself in.

• 1:00:05Speaker 00

  And the environment that that I choose to be in is it it and it's that brutal honesty, it's that brutal sort of truth.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  That the motivator is always becoming a better version of who you are, of learning something, growing from it and becoming a better version of who you were yesterday.

• 1:00:27Steven Bartlett?

  And how important is it to take personal responsibility for your outcomes in life? Because there's a growing culture of blame and victimhood. And I see this as well, as someone that, you know, the best thing that probably happened to me is if I was successful and I had parents that were rich and I had loads of money and I would got a degree and I got these great grades, people would immediately go, well, no, Steve can't tell us anything because he got it handed to him. Fortunately, I was the opposite. I'm a black kid born in Africa, kicked out of school, dropped out of university after one lecture, got no degree, parents are bankrupt. So I can talk a little bit more about like personal responsibility without being discredited. And people say, oh, well, of course you fucking say that. But I see this growing culture because I was a kid in Moss Side in Manchester, stealing

• 1:01:11Steven Bartlett?

  pizzas to feed myself only, I don't know, seven, eight years ago. And I know that my mindset and the behavior that my mindset created is the reason I'm sat here now. Like, of course, there's luck, timing, I understand that. But my mindset increased my probability of being sat here now. So I want to preach that to people, especially people that don't want to take personal responsibility or like, you know, victimhood or blame keeps them nice and safe and comfortable and it means they don't have to look in the mirror. They go, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, guy. But it's hard to attack me. It's hard to attack me because what are you going to say? You know, what privilege, the privilege I had was moving to this country as a baby.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  But that's a privilege of knowing who you are, Steve. So you can take all that income. Yeah, because they haven't got the privilege of knowing you. But you have the privilege of knowing yourself because guess what? You've been there, you've done it, you've got the T-shirt, you've been honest with yourself, you realize, you know, you realize your mistakes, you realize your errors of your way, you learn from failure, you grow from it, you become a better version of who you are. So that's why I say that, that statement of we have the privilege of knowing you is so powerful because ultimately that's what you fall back on all the time. That's why you can take, that's why you can take that and it will bounce off you. It's like, that's your negativity, that's your, it's not, nothing to do with me, that's you and it bounces off me like it bounces off you. But the moment you step into that victim mentality.

• 1:02:37Speaker 00

  That's when you feel that the world owes you everything. That's when you feel like that, you know, why is he, why is he where he is and I'm not there? Why has he got this and I haven't got this? Why, oh, why? Well, I could quite happily go back and not be cancelled. Okay, so for example, if I went, oh, guys, yeah, really, really sorry about that, but I suffer from a bit from PTSD. Now, the death of my father, you know, is, it's like fucking hell. It's, it's like, one, I don't suffer from PTSD. How many times have I had that thrown at me, Steve, going, and if you say you suffer from PTSD, who can question that?

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  Well, no one can question it. Actually, wait, wait, wait, there's one person that can question it. Me. Because I haven't got fucking PTSD. Well, no, no, no, you haven't, but if you say that, then, you know, the papers will do this, the, um, the, the courts will do this. People will start to go, oh, well, actually, you know, the stuff that he's been through and he's seen, he's done, he's witnessed, yeah, of course, listen, throw him another bone, give him another chance, and feel sorry for him. Fuck that. Do you know what I mean? It's like when I went to prison, I left the military, went to prison, got into a violent, violent altercation. Yep, violence on violence. Of course, put my hand up one hundred percent, I'll do my time.

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  My lawyer said to me, Anne, do you want to go to prison? I was like, of course, I don't want to go to prison. Who wants to go to prison? He said, well, listen, here's your out. He went, say you've got PTSD. If you say you've got PTSD, he said, I guarantee you, that's what he said to me, guarantee you, you will not go to prison. You'll get suspended sentence, you'll have to go and do a couple of courses, um, and then you'll be at home with the family. Now, I had four kids and a, and a wife. Actually, at the time, I had two children and a wife at home that relied on me.

• 1:04:32Speaker 00

  I couldn't lie to myself. I thought, don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna lie to you. I thought to myself, do you know what? That sounds appealing, because who can tell me that I haven't got PTSD? But then the question always goes back to you, because only you hold the answer, Steve. Only you have that answer. Only I knew that answer. I could lie to myself, live a lie and fuck knows where I'll be now, right? I might be a bloody PTSD counselor. I might be, but I would have gone down that road for years, right? So I've got two years suspended sentence. Two years of going down a road that wasn't me, going down that road of pure lies. Every step I took wouldn't be a true one.

• 1:05:15Speaker 00

  I always say to people, people will mold you and direct you in life. You know, that's what people are there for, good people anyway. They try and mold. But if that first footstep that you take is not a true one, I said, do not take it. And the only person that knows that is you.

• 1:05:34Speaker 00

  And I always, always, always go back to that. Do I feel comfortable taking this footstep? Yes, I do. The rest of the world doesn't. Well, guess what? I feel comfortable doing it. But yeah, but that, he's gonna have something to say about it. She's gonna have something to say about it. They're gonna have something to say about it. I don't care. Is it true to me? Go back to who I am. Yeah. Boom, I take it. And I deal with whatever comes at me, because it can bounce off me, right? As we spoke about, it's like, it's like, we know who we are, we know what we're about, we know, we know we're good people. So I'm willing to take that, bang, bang, bang. And it does, Steve, it does literally bounce off me. But also, when it does get into me, because the moment it starts, you know, when it gets over, it does get into you.

• 1:06:19Speaker 00

  Once I sit down and process it, it fuels me. I feel like Thanos. You know, it's like, it's just like, because I'm being true to who I am and all this negative and I'm thinking, right, just, just boom, because guess what? I preach positivity till it comes home. I, everything I believe is down to a positive mindset. And how you perceive the way that you think, um, and the way, you know, we have this default mindset, which is negative, you know, everything's like, what if this, what if that, I won't do that because of this. And mine's the opposite. Mine's like, my best outcome is this, this, this. If anything comes along, I'll deal with it. Okay. And it's that mindset that I always, always fall back on. And it's, and, and again, it's, it's one of those that I just find so liberating

• 1:07:02Speaker 00

  that I can just, just think that way. But I put myself in the firing line. I put myself constantly in the firing line to constantly challenge myself, to constantly flip these negatives into positives. Without negativity, you wouldn't have positivity. It wouldn't exist. It doesn't, you know, it's the polar opposite. So people say, so I challenge negativity. I love negativity because I will challenge it and challenge it and challenge it. I love the work ethic and the psychological sort of resilience it takes to challenge negativity. There's a lot of people that negativity comes and they ignore it or they're bad off. But the moment you dig into it and you dig into it and you dig and it takes time. It's a test as well, isn't it?

• 1:07:46Speaker 00

  It tests you, right? And you dig into it and all of a sudden you see a little light, you see a little, little glimpse of positivity. And that's all you're looking for is that one little seed. You grab that, boom, bank that, and then you grow that seed until you find the next one. And there's nothing more rewarding in this world than flipping a negative into a positive. Because if you're willing, and again, if you're willing to work hard enough and you're willing to take the shit and the fucking, uh, and the bullshit and everything that surrounds negativity, if you're willing to dive into the centre of it, and you're willing to work in order to flip it into a positive, then I guarantee you, you, you, you will find a positive in it. And I guarantee you that would be the most rewarding thing you ever do.

• 1:08:28Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:29Speaker 00

  It's like failure. It's exactly the same with failure. I look at failure and it's just, it's like a challenge to me. It's like, you can't do that and you don't know nothing about that. You're gonna fail at that. Well, listen, I'll tell you what, I probably will fail at it, but I'm not scared to commit because I know that the moment I commit to failure, I'll take two or three or four steps into failure and I might go, yeah, I haven't achieved that. But those three or four steps that I've taken, that's, that's what I bank. Those moments in the moment, that's what I bank. A lot of people, they, they might take on failure and they might fail their objective. And they think, oh, I failed that, therefore I'm a failure. And they forget how far they've come. That, this is completely automatically written off because they're going, oh, I failed that. Do you know what I mean? It's like, I won't, I won't go near that again.

• 1:09:13Steven Bartlett?

  That becomes part of your identity. I'm a failure.

• 1:09:15Speaker 00

  I'm a failure.

• 1:09:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:16Speaker 00

  So they, anytime failures, they, they think they're safety bubble, safety bubble, victim, but whatever. They won't go anywhere near it, but I love it. When negativity comes along and failure comes along, you know, I'm so intrigued on what I'll get out of it. I'm so intrigued what I learn from it. Cause when you learn, you grow. When you grow, you become a better version of who you are. It's just that, it's that knock on effect that it has. And failure is exactly that. Failure isn't going anywhere. I failed up to now in my life. I'm gonna fail to the day I die. So are you, so are you, so are you. Every single one of you in here is, is gonna fail, whether you like it or not. It is everyday part of life as much as it is breathing. It's, it's surrounded by us. So why do we ignore it?

• 1:09:57Speaker 00

  If it's part of who we are and part of, part of, part of what's, what makes the world tick, then why don't we use it to our advantage?

• 1:10:04Steven Bartlett?

  Because the perceived cost of failure, whatever that might be, you know, Jenny at work is gonna think I'm not, so whatever, and this person's gonna write this about me. The perceived cost, especially in the short term, feels greater. It feels, and that's the same force of like the PC brigade or that, you know, it, it's like, it's better just to stay in your lane today and to just like put your head down, be quiet. Because people think, and this is the, where it's wrong, people think that's the safest place to be. Reflecting on my own journey, when I went to university and I knew that I, this was a piece of shit and that I needed to quit if I was actually gonna become an entrepreneur. Like it's, it, it, calling my mom and then telling her I'm dropping out and her telling me never to speak to her again, right? That was the resistance. That was the moment where life goes, stay in your fucking lane. Right?

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:49Steven Bartlett?

  But when I, and people go, you were so, you were so brave.

• 1:10:52Speaker 00

  And then you're like that, you're grabbing hold of the wheel like.

• 1:10:54Steven Bartlett?

  But my brain was so clear, the biggest risk, the biggest failure would have been staying in university and living a life not true to myself. So people say, oh, you're so, you're so much courage. Okay. Courage would have been staying.

• 1:11:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:08Steven Bartlett?

  Right? And I think that's the, that's the thing. Of course, my mom says, oh, never speak to me again. And I don't speak to her for two years. But look at the upside of living my, even if I'd failed, like, look at the upside of being myself. And I think that's pretty much what I'm hearing from what you're saying is like, there's this, you know, the, there is the short time resistance where it's like, oh my God, if you fail, you're gonna lose it all. So no, you'll lose it all if you don't try.

• 1:11:28Speaker 00

  This is, it's exactly how, the thing about it is the way that your mindset thinks, and it is, it's not a complicated way of thinking.

• 1:11:36Steven Bartlett?

  It's not.

• 1:11:36Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's so simple, really, so simple, stupid, that it's almost incomprehensible.

• 1:11:46Speaker 00

  And everything that I do, and you just said it then, and make, what you just said there makes complete sense to me. Every single word you said about that story, I'm like that. Yes. It's like, it's obvious, like, why wouldn't you do that? Right? But sometimes the most obvious things that, that are the hardest to process, the hardest to, to, to achieve. And with my books and, and my tours, you know, I don't get people coming off my tours going, and, you know, tapped into this part of my brain now. Thank you for this. It's like, they come off my tours or read my books and go, and it was always in there.

• 1:12:18Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  You just gave me this kick yourself moment where I'm just like, how did I not see that? How did I not, you put it in such lame in terms, because I'm, I'm a simple man. Do you know what I mean? I'm not, I'm not an intellect. I'm not a bookworm. I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a simpleton. I'm a simple man. I keep things, the way that I get to my answers is good, bad, right, wrong, positive, negative, yes, no. Do you know what I mean? I keep it.

• 1:12:41Steven Bartlett?

  It's listening.

• 1:12:42Speaker 00

  But it's listening to, to who I am. And it's, it's the most simplest way of, of, of getting to where you need to be. But we let the constraints and the bullshit and the complications of society and what other people think.

• 1:13:01Speaker 00

  Cloud all of that.

• 1:13:02Steven Bartlett?

  I almost see it like two dials, right? One of them is this voice inside, which everyone has in them. They're saying, go and dance in the hills of Costa Rica. And then there's this other really loud dial, right? The sound dial and it's society and your mum and your whatever. And that one's saying, go be a fucking lawyer and shut up. Right? And in all of our lives, I think one dial is a little bit higher than the other. And the, the, the challenging thing, but the most important thing you can do, if you want to reach your potential, be happy, avoid mental health issues, avoid midlife crises, is to like turn up the internal dial and just try and get that, that other dial, which is society's voice, right down to, to fucking zero, right? And, and I, and I just, do you know, and I just feel if everyone could just do that in their own lives, which is not easy to do,

• 1:13:43Steven Bartlett?

  because listening to this internal voice is going to come with real resistance. People are going to cancel you. They're gonna, my mum's gonna not speak to me for years, right? But in, that's the short term cost for a long term gain. And as is the way with comfort, I see like comfort and like avoiding with that resistance is a, it looks like a friend. It's a short term friend, but a long term enemy. And if you, you know, if you'd, if you'd, in the moments where you've said you've been like cancelled, quote unquote, had you caved, short term friend probably would still have a show or two.

• 1:14:13Speaker 00

  Yep, of course, of course. But long term, and I say to people, what you've got to realise is that you are with yourself 24 hours a day for the rest of your life. No one else can even come close to that. No one else will, will even come close to that. So you are with yourself your whole life. People, they come and go, situations, they come and go. So ultimately you've got to live with yourself first, before you try and live with anyone else, before you try and live with any situation, before you try and put yourself into any environment. That's what I say to people and they go, well, I'm like, you're with yourself 24 hours a day to the day you die. Nothing comes close to that. No one comes close to being anywhere near that.

• 1:14:55Steven Bartlett?

  That's the person you've got to honour.

• 1:14:56Speaker 00

  That's who you are. So that's the person who you've got to honour. That's the person that you've got to make hap- make happy.

• 1:15:01Steven Bartlett?

  The boss.

• 1:15:02Speaker 00

  That's the boss, right? That's the person.

• 1:15:04Steven Bartlett?

  It's impossible to please that voice and that voice, right? So like.

• 1:15:08Speaker 00

  But please yourself and, and ultimately, you know, what comes out, it will, you know, should, should be, war should be authentic, should be true. So, and then you'll find your belonging, you'll find your circle, you'll find your like minded people, you'll find your, your, your, yeah, you'll find your belonging. It's like, you know. You must know, as you get more successful, as you, you know, you start thinking, you start changing, start evolving your mindset more and more and more and more, your circle gets smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. I'm happy with that, you know, I'm, I'm happy with that because not that I'm above anyone or below anyone, you know, we're, we're just on different ends of the spectrum. Okay, because guess what, I'm gonna keep evolving, my mindset's gonna keep changing. I'm gonna keep getting wise, I'm gonna keep getting more knowledgeable, I'm gonna keep being honest with myself.

• 1:15:54Speaker 00

  Now, for me, that's my purpose in life, nothing out there. You know, it's nice to have the nice cars, the nice houses, don't, don't get me wrong, it's nice to have money, I've had no money, and now I've got money, I know which side I'd rather be on, okay? That's all, but that's all comes part and parcel with, with being true to who you are. Um, and my purpose in life, which is I will never achieve, but which is, I find fascinating, is trying to get the best possible version of Ant Middleton. Trying to get to that, okay, but knowing that I never get to that answer, because I'll be on this constant progression of becoming a better version of who I am.

• 1:16:33Speaker 00

  But I never become the best version of who I am, because that's when you're perfect, that's when you're one hundred percent you, and that's not real, it doesn't exist. But the purpose of getting closer and closer and closer and closer to that answer

• 1:16:51Speaker 00

  is such a fascinating journey for me, that there's nothing that comes close to it. Hmm. There's nothing that comes close to it, and whether I have the, the counselling, or, or the, the shows that keep coming, or the TV production companies that call me now, and the channels that call, whether I have failures, or whatever it may be, all of these, everything Hmm. that bounces in towards me is a, is something to learn from. And it's a lesson, and it's gonna, I'm gonna learn from it, and I'm gonna grow from it, and I'm gonna get closer and closer to the answer, closer and closer to, to my objective, closer and closer to my purpose. And that is to try and get as close as I can to being the best version of myself, and.

• 1:17:38Speaker 00

  I'm fascinated with that. I'm addicted by it. I'm addicted to it. I'm obsessed with it.

• 1:17:44Speaker 00

  So like I said, when I get that Thanos moment, I'm like, bring all this negativity at me. Bring it because I'm just churning away at it. Doesn't mean I'm always happy. I'm not always happy, you know. You know, I don't go around sprinkling positive fairy dust. I'm not that type of preacher, right? But I preach, you know, working on your mind to make it positive, you know, challenging negative situations. Thinking, well, it's a negative situation. I've got to tackle it with a positive mindset. Make a concerted effort to train your mindset to think positively, to flip the script from this default mindset where everyone, you know, thinks negatively. And I love working at that. I love working at that. So all of this stuff that you give me, it does. Once I go, because I go quiet, like this last week has been a media storm.

• 1:18:29Speaker 00

  And I'll go quiet and I'll be with my family, I'll be with my management. And like, Ant, you're quiet. And I'm like, I'm quiet because I'm churning away at negativity. I'm not unhappy. Don't get me wrong, listen. But I need to be left alone for two, three days, maybe a week. Because there's so much negativity coming in and I'm chipping away at it, trying to find the light, no, nothing there. Trying to find the light, trying to find, ah, boom, bang, da, da, da. And then I bank this positivity and then the next week I'll be, boom, back to Ant. Do you know what I mean? Back to this positive, naturally positive person because I've trained my mind to think like that. I'm always in a positive headspace.

• 1:19:08Speaker 00

  But sometimes I'll go quiet. It doesn't mean I'm always happy. So don't get positivity mixed up with happiness. Yeah, yeah. Because they're two completely different things. And happiness comes from Yeah. in knowing who you are, you know, it comes from being true to who you are, knowing who you are. You could be the poorest man in the world and you could be the, you know, you could have no one or nothing, but you could still be happy. You know, or you could be the richest man in the world and, you know, you know, you know the script.

• 1:19:32Steven Bartlett?

  One of them is like a general sense of optimism that I'm positive about the future. And the other one's just like internal contentment and, and, but our moods change.

• 1:19:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:19:41Steven Bartlett?

  You know, we have shit days, bad days, whatever, but in time we're optimistic and tight, right?

• 1:19:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:45Steven Bartlett?

  One of the questions I really wanted to ask you because of what's going on in the world with this whole pandemic and COVID is I was thinking as I was like brushing my teeth or whatever this morning, I was thinking there's a ton. If, if my audience could ask you one thing, probably would be around the fact that the world changed this year. A lot of people's lives were uprooted, they lost their businesses, their jobs, whatever. And then I thought, you know, ants probably, well, for sure has have been in situations where you felt like whether it's on the battlefield or whatever, that this was a fight that where the odds were against you.

• 1:20:16Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:20:17Steven Bartlett?

  And in those moments, there's winners and losers and, you know, you always talk about mindset. What is the mindset that people need in these moments where the odds don't look like they're, they're very much in their favor? That from, that you've seen from the battlefield where you've emerged victorious because, you know, you didn't, you didn't indulge in victimhood or whatever. And you, and you, yeah, does that make sense?

• 1:20:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, 100% makes sense. For me, it hasn't.

• 1:20:45Speaker 00

  It's about embracing change, you know? Majority of people, they live their life on autopilot or they, they live in the void, I call it.

• 1:20:56Speaker 00

  Where everything around them is changing, you know, the world is constantly changing. Everything around us is constantly changing, whether it's, you know, climate control, whether it's, you know, in the way that we think, the way that we're evolving, the way that the world is going, the way that animals are evolving, the way that the sea is, is, is encroaching or, or, you know, decreasing, whatever it may be. Everything is changing around us and we are designed to change with it. So what we're actually doing is we're actually going against the grain. When we become complacent, when we get comfortable, when we get into one sort of situation and we stay in that situation, it's going, we're working in the opposite

• 1:21:40Speaker 00

  way that the world should be evolving. We should be constantly changing, we should be constantly evolving, we should be constantly moving forward. You know, look at my career, I've gone from the army to the Marines, to the special forces, to the media, to, to books, to authors, to literacy, to business. It's like, I'm, I love, love change. I love being put in a situation where I'm literally chucked in the deep end with dive boots on and I have to tread water. I love that because it's so challenging and it's so, so stimulating that you're forced to change. You're forced to think of something different, you're forced to, to, to do something differently, you're forced to change the way that you, you approach

• 1:22:23Speaker 00

  something because you've been put in a situation where it's been forced upon you. But when it's not forced upon you, when it's not forced upon you, um, which the world does, it forces it upon us. But when, when it's not forced upon you, when you, when you get comfortable, then you get, you fall into this void, you fall into this complacency, you fall into, to not moving along with the world.

• 1:22:45Steven Bartlett?

  But is that, are those your demons again? Because I'm thinking, the reason why Ant loves to be chucked into the water with his dive boots on is because you relish challenge. And this is comes, maybe links to the victimhood point and a general problem in culture and society where people like comfort, cotton wool. A lot of people are being brought up now with cotton wool.

• 1:23:05Speaker 00

  We're not designed, we're not designed to be comfortable. We're not designed to have cotton wool strapped around us. It's society, it's the restraints and the shackles of society that is forcing us to be like this. It's not who we are. Look how far we've come. You know. Look at, look at, look at just through history, how far we've come. And I feel like that we're actually devolving now. I actually feel that we've got to a point where we're going backwards, where, you know.

• 1:23:32Steven Bartlett?

  Used to be survival of the fittest.

• 1:23:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. You push a rock in front of your ca- caves, you know what I mean, to survive, you know, used to be at the, you know, the top of the food chain. Um, you know, it's, we're not designed to be comfortable. We're not designed to be wrapped up in cotton wool. We're not designed to be shackled down. And that's why there's so many problems in the world right now. It's because of these shackles. It's because of these chains. It's because of the restraints that society is putting on us. It's forcing us into, into mental illness. It's forcing us to, to act in ways that we're not designed to act in. It's forcing us to, to switch off to the most powerful tool that the universe, that's in the universe, your minds.

• 1:24:17Speaker 00

  We're forced to just put it on fucking dormant, you know that, be a, it's, it's, we're going against the grain of what we're supposed to do, of who we're supposed to be, on how we're supposed to act and how we're, it's, um, supposed to evolve. So when, when you've got this going around like this, and then this stops, is, is, it, you, you, you, there's this synchronicity that's not working in, in, in partnership with each other. You know, without us on this planet, this planet wouldn't be as evolved as it was. Without the planet, then we wouldn't be evolved as it was. You know, and, and what, what's actually happening is, is you've got this, this, this, these two forces that are grinding against each other, rather than working together with each other in synchronicity.

• 1:25:01Steven Bartlett?

  I, I, I, I was reading this crazy thing the other day, and I think I've talked about it maybe once before, but it shows that, um, the life expectancy in the UK and the US fell for two years in a row, and I think it was like last year, the year before, whatever, for the first time ever. And they look at the numbers as to why the life expectancy has fallen for the first time ever. And it's because of like the opioid crisis, people who are getting addicted to drugs. And then they say, so why are people getting more and more addicted to drugs? And they say, well, because they're lacking meaning in their life. And when people lack meaning, the, the science is showing where you do it to animals, you take away their meaning. I, I talked, I think in the last podcast, and I, I'd hate to repeat myself, but I also don't care. About these rats and I fucking, because they're right about my bucket, so fascinated by it. They put a rat in a cage and take everything from it. And they give it the option of drinking heroin water or normal water. It becomes a drug addict.

• 1:25:44Steven Bartlett?

  They then introduce a partner, some stimulation, some running wheel, some other things. And they give it heroin water or normal water. And it doesn't choose the heroin water. It doesn't become a drug addict just by inserting meaning into its life. It avoids the heroin. And then you think, okay, so what's going on in society? You think, well, people are lacking challenge and meaning because we're trying to create a culture. Maybe we're challenging, meaning are a bad thing. And, and that's actually having an adverse effect because as you say, very eloquently, like that's not who we are.

• 1:26:12Speaker 00

  You know, I love how you just put that, Steve, because you've just put my thoughts into a scientific sort of into scientific form. Because again, I'm not an intellect, I'm not a bookworm, you know, it's, it's like I have psychiatrists come up to me and go, where did you study at? Well, but no, honestly, what books did you? And I'm like, no, no, this is all, every single little ounce of me is through life experience. I come from the University of Life, you know, and what I've just said there is it's strange that, and that's why I love talking to people like yourself. Because I've put that as in how I'm thinking, I haven't read anything from it. And, and you've just put it into a whole sort of scientific, and that's like, that's exactly that. It's exactly what I've just said. And you've just put it into, into something that's been proven. And that's, that's the way that I think that's the way that I, that's the way that I perceive life.

• 1:26:58Steven Bartlett?

  And it's funny because as you say, you're not, you didn't, you say it, I'm not an intellectual, but I've sat here with intellectuals and they've said the exact same thing. Like Johann Hari, he wrote a book on this, nine reasons why people are getting depressed and anxious, bestselling book. He sat here and he said the exact same thing. So when I hear it twice or three times, and then I read it in another, I think these are just fundamental truths.

• 1:27:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:17Steven Bartlett?

  And when I get to that point where you've been, you've walked a different walk of life to that, that intellect who's wrote a book on it. But you've both arrived at the same place.

• 1:27:25Speaker 00

  That they come at the same place.

• 1:27:26Steven Bartlett?

  That's going in my fucking like, in my diary forever, you know?

• 1:27:30Speaker 00

  But that's, that's, that's super interesting as well. It's like, you know, you, you, but you can't take away that, you know, you can't, you can't unwrit that because it's written within. Evolution, it's written within the way the world has evolved, it's written in the way that we think, it's written in in the organs, the muscles and the body that we have. It's all here, it's all fucking present right now.

• 1:27:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:55Speaker 00

  It's not in a book that we're gonna read, it's fucking happening right now, it's here, it's real, this energy source that you are, your fucking energy source, we're energy sources, is synchronized with the planet, which is one big energy source, it's one big ball. And I had a moment of clarity on when I was filming, I've always felt a connection with the earth, you know, I talk about, you know, we can climb to the highest peak of the apex of the world, Mount Everest, we can climb to that because people said, yeah, but we've had to do this, this and this in order to get there, you know, working against the mountain. I'm like, no, the way that that mountain is formed, that's a foothold for you, that's a, that's an arm reach for you, that's, you know, it's designed to work with you.

• 1:28:40Speaker 00

  So don't look at a mountain and go, oh, I've got to get up there, it's working against me. No, no, it's that little stone there that you put your foot on, that's helping you up to, to stand on its apex, it's helping you up to stand on its summit. And I've always felt a connection with the earth, always, always, always, you know, when I put my feet in it, when I put my hands in it, you know, I belong here, you know, and I have this sort of, I have this theory that people think that, you know, that if you put the planet as a, as a, as a, as a tree, where they think we're just birds, they come and sit on the tree and they think we're just visitors and then, and then we go, we're not, we're, we're the leaves.

• 1:29:18Steven Bartlett?

  The tree, yeah.

• 1:29:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're the leaves of the tree, do you know what I mean? And then, and then, you know, we grow in it, we're part of, you know, we're part of this evolution.

• 1:29:24Steven Bartlett?

  Very spiritual.

• 1:29:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, but I'm not a spiritual person, but.

• 1:29:28Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe you are, but maybe your definition's wrong, because I posted on my Instagram last week, I did say, we've just had, it's funny, my Instagram post literally says, I've never thought of myself as a spiritual person, because I don't resonate with like the hippie stigma of it.

• 1:29:39Speaker 00

  No, yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:40Steven Bartlett?

  Like, I'm not that guy, however, the end, it's one story.

• 1:29:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:43Steven Bartlett?

  The end of it was like, I, if you define spirituality as feeling somewhat connected to the world, which I now do, then I now consider myself to be spiritual. This was just one story, and this was like three days ago.

• 1:29:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, a lot of people do ask if I'm spiritual, and I, I always say no, but yeah, maybe I am, but it's that, it's that theory of, of being. There's a connection, one can't live without the other. And when, when that, when the, you know, we're the leaves and yeah, we're going to fall off and there's going to be new leaves, you know, but everything recycles back into itself. Do you know what I mean? We don't just all of a sudden go up into, no, everything goes back into the earth, everything regenerates.

• 1:30:17Steven Bartlett?

  Definitely spiritual. Because I, I went and Googled it, definition of spirituality. And the definition I read was like the feeling or belief that we are interconnected with the world. The stigma is the issue. That's what alienates both of us from saying I'm a spiritual person because we're not like hippies, we're not like, you know, but we are, we like.

• 1:30:33Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 1:30:34Steven Bartlett?

  You know what I mean? So.

• 1:30:35Speaker 00

  And I go back, going back to this moment where, where it just resonates, you know? And the reason why I do all these things is, is I just want to reconfirm that my way of thinking is, is true, is true to me, is, is why I do this, you know? And that's why I put myself in these awkward situations because it just, it gives a light bulb moment where I go, do you know what? Bloody hell, you know, I'm on the right path, I'm getting this right. And I was away, I was away filming and I, and I felt this, you know, I was in the mountains in, in Chile, in the Andes. And I could just feel a real connection, you know, like a, like a real presence, you know, and it's, it's, it's a lovely, lovely feeling. And I can just remember

• 1:31:18Speaker 00

  this, an energy connection. It was really strange that it happened, an energy connection. And as I'm walking by, I was walking alongside of this mountain and as I'm walking alongside, I heard a big massive bang and I turned towards the mountain and I'm not joking, it was probably about 300 meters away. So it was like, you know, and this bit of rock went, it must have passed, no, no word of a lie within two meters of me, you know, and it went big, because the mountains, it's an energy source. They're fucking bursting there, literally like that. And the mountain, every now and then, it's the first time I experienced, I heard about it, but I'd never experienced it and it went bang. And it nearly took my head off to the point where I was like,

• 1:31:58Speaker 00

  fucking hell, what was it incoming? You know, I was like, and then I realised, I was like, well, just, and you see a little bit of mountain, mountain fall off, bum, bum, bum. And it's where the energy, the energy of that mountain and, you know, unless you get out and about and you see it's like. And I thought to myself, wow, I remember stopping and thinking, I felt that before that even that not that specific moment, but I felt the energy. So I felt the connection there. And then that was, it's almost as if the mountain was talking to me going, what you feeling is right. Listen, we are, I'm, listen, we are powerful. We have a connection. Without you, there wouldn't be me.

• 1:32:39Speaker 00

  Without me, there wouldn't be you. And just that confirmation just makes me realise, wow, you know, this is, this is, this is powerful stuff. This is, you know, this is how you should be feeling. Once you're in tune with yourself and then, and, and, and connected to the, to this planet, then there's, there's, there's not much that you feel that you can't do. There's not much that phases you in life. There's not much that you won't try and achieve. There's not, there's not much that you won't achieve. And I feel, I feel sorry or because you can, I can talk about being in tune with, with the planet and being, you know, being connected to, to mother earth. But unless you are in tune

• 1:33:23Speaker 00

  with that, then you just think I'm talking bollocks. You just think, oh, what the hell is he on about? He's some spiritual idiot, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, this is the personal life that I really keep to myself, you know, I've spoken a lot about it today, which I've never spoken about before. But this is, this is who I am. Do you know what I mean? So there's, there's so much more behind what the media put out and what the, what the papers put out and what the, you know, the media agenda is and what they want you, you to be seen as. And there's this whole life behind me that is, that I just, that's the real me. That's who I am. So when any of this other stuff that's made up by other people that comes in from, from not within, it is so easy for me just to bat

• 1:34:07Speaker 00

  off. So easy for me just to go bang, bang, bang. But don't get me wrong. Sometimes I work harder at it to bat it off. Sometimes it does stick and you have to go, but it's such a liberating feeling. And I'll always say to people, and this is, this is my, you know, find out who you are. Go on that journey. Not self-discovery, because that sounds spiritual, right? Go on that journey of, of finding your purpose or find, of becoming the best version of who you are. Because once you start that journey, you will get addicted to it. It is fascinating and it will, it will only serve you well. Will only serve you well because it's a life I want to live till I'm one hundred and fifty. Because say I live till I'm fifty, a hundred, a hundred years isn't long enough. I still want more.

• 1:34:52Speaker 00

  I want to know more. I want to, I want to be on this journey for the, for as long as I can be on this journey. This is what gives me longevity. This is what gives me purpose. I want to be on this journey for as long as I can be. And when I think, the only setback is when I think, you know, I've got another, you know, fifty, sixty years of it. It sort of saddens me. So I'm hoping that by that stage, we can, we can live to be a bit, bit more immortal. A bit more, a bit more, a bit more mortal. Oh yeah.

• 1:35:22Steven Bartlett?

  Well, listen, I think that's a really powerful place to end. And I think that's, that's something that I'll continue to point out. I wanted to say thank you though, because there are few people that are, have the courage in this day and age to be themselves and to speak their mind. And unfortunately, it feels like a bit of a dying breed, but you're one of those people. And having spent time with you before we started filming and during this conversation, I got to know, I had the privilege of getting to know who you are a little bit, as you say. And that's a person that I do respect when that inspires me and reminds me of the importance of following my, my truest self. So I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you for having this conversation today and thank you for being yourself.

• 1:35:55Speaker 00

  Steve, you're a gentleman. Thank you.

• 1:35:57Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you.