Arab Spring Leader Wael Ghonim on Modern Social Media's Promise And Peril

In 2011, Wael Ghonim created a Facebook page that sparked the overthrow of the Egyptian regime. Since then, the former Google marketing director has kept a close eye on social media's evolution, and has plenty to say about where it's gone wrong, and how it can get better. Ten years after Cairo residents painted "Facebook" on the walls after the revolution, Ghonim stops by Big Technology Podcast to revisit what happened and where we go from here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 0:43Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 1:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  Hey, YL.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Hey, Alex. How are you?

• 1:06Alex Kantrowitz?

  Good. Good to see you again.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, I'm just gonna read the ad and then we'll get into it. Here we go. "The Big Technology Podcast is sponsored by MediaOcean. Looking for a job in big tech? You might want to take a look at MediaOcean. They were just named by Ad Age as the number one place to work in advertising technology. Go to mediaocean.com/bigtech to learn more about the company and check out their careers hub. MediaOcean is building the mission-critical platform for omnichannel advertising. If that sounds cool, or if you just want to find out what those buzzwords mean, hit up mediaocean.com/bigtech and browse their job listings. And big thanks to MediaOcean for supporting the Big Technology Podcast. Okay, let's do it.

• 2:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  Hello and welcome to the Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool-headed nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond. Joining us today is one of the most original thinkers in tech I've ever met, and someone who is not only a thinker, but a person who's had the guts to put his own safety on the line for causes that matter to him. Walgonim helped spark the Egyptian Revolution in 2011 by creating a Facebook page that rallied the country against the regime. He's also a friend of mine, I think I can say that, who's helped me. Thank you, I appreciate that.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  You are a friend of mine, too.

• 2:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, thank you very much. Okay, so it's confirmed. And while you've helped me think through the issues through a different lens, and I've been looking through this conversation since before I started the podcast, so an official welcome to the show. Welcome, Myel.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Thank you, Alex, and I'm happy to be with you. And we've kind of developed an interesting relationship as we got introduced to each other. And since then, I'm happy to, yeah, of course, call you a friend, because I do think that at the end of the day, I'm getting from you is good vibes and experiences, and we share insights. So it's a good way to start a friendship, anyway.

• 3:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, likewise. I've told you this before, but I feel like every time we talk about tech and talk about life, I come away having learned something. And not only like learned like a new fact or figure, but a new way of appreciating the world, a new way of looking at the world. And that means a lot. So, thank you.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  I'm glad you see it that way.

• 3:31Alex Kantrowitz?

  For sure, for sure, 100%. So I think I'd like to start just by introducing you to the audience. So you were working for Google as a head of marketing in the Middle East in 2011. And then the Egyptian regime killed a man, Khalid Said. And you created a Facebook page, We Are All Khalid Said. So can you take, which eventually ended up leading to the overthrow of the regime. So can you take us back to that moment? What were you feeling then? And what were you thinking?

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Well, it's um, it was basically a moment of frustration because uh, I'm someone who was born in nineteen eighty and since I was uh, one year old, uh, since I was like coming to life, there was only one um, president that runs the country. And the ruling party was um, kind of getting old in their positions of power. It's been like thirty years at the time. Uh, and unfortunately, uh, the way uh, the country runs um, uh, has not been ideal in, in the perspective of a lot of people, especially young people. Uh, who uh, were kind of exposed to the global phenomena, who got together on the internet, who

• 4:43Speaker 01

  So, uh, when, when the event of Khalid Said this happened and the response that came from the government about his case um, uh, was, was just basically um, a denial and uh, and saying that, no, he did not die from being uh, beaten up by police officers. He just swallowed um, uh, some drugs and uh, and that's what basically caused him to die. Uh, when that happened, I started a page and my idea at the time was not to start any kind of um, massive unrest or any kind of massive revolutions or anything. It was just as simple as uh, I am, I know how to communicate. I learned how to communicate. I have a background in engineering and as well as uh, master in business administration, a lot of experience in the street.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  And uh, it must be that people like me should be doing something about the, the, the environment. So I was trying to raise awareness about uh, police brutality, human rights violations. Um, uh, the calling for democracy in Egypt. And uh, all of that was happening kind of like uh, in the realm of uh, between two thousand ten and uh, for months until two thousand eleven happened. Uh, just to give people perspective of the numbers, um, uh, after three days of creating that Facebook page, about a hundred thousand people were on it and, and the page grew like uh, to uh, when the time the, the revolution um, kind of started, uh, the page had about four hundred, five hundred thousand members. And at the time in two thousand eleven, that was like a huge number

• 6:13Speaker 01

  uh, uh, within a page that has some sort of a political agenda. Um, and Uh, at the time, because of my frustration and because of my desire to do something, I just decided to take a bit of a risk uh by operating this page anonymously. So it was not a full risk, it was an anonymous uh management of the page. The way, the way events unfold is not about moments, actually, you know, there, there was no, like, we try as journalists or we try as people who write books and we try as people who try and understand experiences to come, to come up with some sort of an analysis of what happened. But most of the time, um, uh, there is a, there is always like a butterfly effect, the trailing effect for all the events. So it was not just the Khalid Said death that triggered everything.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  I did not join politics just because he died, you know what I mean? It, it's mostly just general observation, frustration, anger, that eventually gets manifested when an event uh, uh, like the, what happened to Khalid Said happens. And then as we grouped, uh, and as people were together, when the events in Tunisia happened, uh, I kinda had a change of uh, my own internal faith towards whether should we or should we not do something in the streets. Not that I'm the one who, who holds the key, I just had that.

• 7:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  And what happened in Tunisia?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Um, in Tunisia, basically, uh, in fourteenth of January, uh, Bin Ali, the president of Tunisia for over twenty years, uh, due to protests, um, uh, announced that he is resigning and he had to, uh, flew outside of Tunisia. At the time, actually, uh, his, his plane was on the air and they were trying to find, the pilot was trying to find which country is gonna take him because France said no, you know, a few other countries said, no, we can't have you because there is a lot of trouble. And, and he ended up, uh, uh, landing in Saudi Arabia. But the point I was trying to make is that kind of event gave us a perspective that actually, uh, change in systems could happen, that individuals are powerful. At the time, I like thought the power of the people is greater than the people in power.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  I still think the same, but it's kinda like it, it came manifested. Um, in, uh, in the scene. So, uh, I just used the page and the four hundred thousand people within the page to call for, uh, let's all, you know, I just put a date and a time and hoped for, um, us to, to start working towards this. Of course, uh, just to clarify, I'm not saying that I'm the one who just ignited it. I, the real ones who ignited it are the regime. And if I was not there, it would have been a different scenario that takes, uh, people somewhere, uh, that's, that's also not favorable because at the end of the day, there was like a total, um, uh, collapse in the, in the system. And, uh, that was also met with a total new,

• 8:53Speaker 01

  new technology that's coming bright and, uh, and exciting. Everybody was excited on Facebook and liking and hearting and, you know, there was no heart at the time, liking and, and getting like in the hype of like feeling that they're powerful, that they can do things, which is kind of true. Uh, but at the end of the day, um, that kind of contributed to the fall of, uh, President Mubarak, uh, during, uh, the, the revolution for eighteen days. I got arrested for eleven days out of the eighteen days. Um, uh, they captured me from the street and, um, I, I was arrested for about, uh, eleven days and there was huge pressure coming from the street, coming from, uh, different governments, different countries, um, and, and also like,

• 9:35Speaker 01

  of course, uh, Google as, as the company have, uh, done some, uh, diplomatic effort to just try and help me out. Not, not to get me out, but just to make sure that I'm okay because at the time, uh, no one even knew who, where I was. I was just basically taken out from the street and put in, uh, solitary confinement in somewhere that I did not even personally knew because they covered my eyes. So, uh, I mean, long story short, it's, uh, it, it was basically this kind of, uh, uh, a collective action that got together and I was, I was in the middle of it, uh, because of the, uh, you know, how internet savvy and also how frustrated and how driven I was about having a better future for the country.

• 10:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. And the way that you describe it is, um, you know, great perspective talking about how what happened was a manifestation of frustration past. But on the other hand, it does take a certain type of individual to help lead what you led. And, um,

• 10:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  You know, I'd love to speak about social media throughout this conversation because obviously our perspectives on Facebook have changed since then. It was sort of the height of why people like Facebook and we'll get to that in the next question. But I just want to know from your perspective, like personally, you must have known that, you know, your life, you had a pretty good life, you know, working for Google and you must have known that your life was going to change getting involved. So what made you feel, you know, it was worthwhile to put your personal well-being at risk to lead something like this? Because when an individual, and I know it was a group, but you know, they eventually found you, they find the individuals that are, you know, helping to spark it. When an individual goes against a government,

• 11:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  that's a bold thing to do. So I'm curious what, if you even made a calculation and what calculation went through your head when you decided to make this happen?

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's a combination of recklessness and basically immaturity, combined with lack of knowledge, as well as a lot of bravery and drive to feel something. Like in, throughout my career, like the, you know, I remember the last few months at Google, I was not really happy at all. Like, I just felt something is going on wrong, you know, I don't, I did not come to life to live a boxed life in a way, like, you know, I just operate out of my own resources and we are here to just live life, whatever that is. I feel like

• 12:08Speaker 01

  there is something, I always feel that, that there is something stronger about the bonds between people and there has to be a price to try and bring those bonds together. So some people have to stand up and pay that price. My naivety protects me somehow because, you know, if one sometimes really understands the consequences of their actions, like of course, I, while I was doing what I was doing, I thought there was a lot of security risks on myself and I thought I might be arrested. But at the same time, I always reminded myself, even inside The prison, um, you know, does it really matter how how long do you live? Or what kind of work do you do during your life?

• 12:51Speaker 01

  And and of course, that question of mattering is important to, uh, uh, you know, even on whether you are a believer of a god or a divine power that is that wants us in a certain way. Or even if you are a non-believer, uh, that just wanna do things that matter uh, in your own experience of life, because I just believe that life is all about feelings. It's not about words, it's not about actions, it's it's really about feelings. The words and actions are just uh, uh, our way to to feel whatever we feel. Uh, there's some many people who do actions, uh, uh, or addicted to certain actions. They are just addicted to it because of the feel that it gives them. So in that sense, I kinda value my feelings a lot.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  And whenever I felt like I was not happy, uh, I did not just keep moving on in the same direction. So I I felt uh, an internal urge all the time to do something. While at the same time, it's uh, I I strive to balance it. Uh, I don't wanna, you know, I I was an anonymous admin, I was hiding my identity. I did not stay at my mom's place on twenty fifth of January, um, because, you know, I was living in Dubai. So I would stay with the with my family, but I didn't. I stayed in one of my friend's offices, I changed my phones, I broke one of my SIM cards because I don't want the government to trace me if they are. So I kinda played, uh, uh, uh, despite my naivety, I kinda played the game as much as I can. But I can tell you, uh, that when they captured me, I was not ready for it. So I knew that a lot of it was also naivety.

• 14:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  How did they find you? Because you were an anonymous admin of the page and they ended up finding out who you were.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Um, they they found me by chance, it was not like.

• 14:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, what happened?

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Uh, I I basically, there was um, an ex-Google, at the time, he he, uh, I think he's still at Google, Google, uh, uh, Google Ideas or Jigsaw. Uh, the CEO of Google Jigsaw was visiting Cairo and it was uh, uh, merely a coincidence, I swear. Because the hi- his plan to visit was many months before, uh, it was settled many months before. Um, and his name is Jared Cohen. So, uh, he, uh, was working for the, uh, Department of State before the.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Um. Before Google, uh. So when he came, he was coming to Egypt for a project about uh extremism and he was in contact with the government, like he was working uh through normal channels. Um, uh, but because of his background, I believe the government somehow um uh followed him because he came, uh, he arrived on twenty sixth or twenty seventh, I can't remember. Um, and again, uh, you know, because I know from inside the company that this.

• 15:25Alex Kantrowitz?

  And what's the the significance of the twenty fifth?

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Twenty fifth is what was the first day uh the protests started. So when he arrived, he arrived at the at the time where the government was kind of like looking around what's happening.

• 15:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  What's happening here?

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Where are all these people coming? Yeah. Where are all these people coming from and who drives them and who's motivating them? And they were kind of, uh. Yeah, they were kind of bought into a a big conspiracy about the whatever that's happening cannot be just uh um um coincidence, it must be a series of events or mass organized and orchestrated by foreign powers. Um, and they were trying to figure that out. So they kind of followed him and I just had dinner with him on twenty seventh, uh, because twenty eighth was going to be one of the days where we don't know what's gonna happen next. So I just wanted to see him before I just disappear from the scene. So I agreed with him to meet him for uh hookah.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  I'll I'll smoke hookah and dinner in one of the cafes and as soon as I finished uh my dinner with him. Um, uh, as I was walking uh in in the dark street, it was like around midnight and, you know, just four people uh surround me with, they have machine guns and stuff and they push me on the ground, they hit me and then, you know, they um uh basically uh handcuffed me, uh, put a uh head like something to cover my eyes, uh, an eye cover so that I can't see what's going. It's like a movie scene, you know? I kept trying to scream, uh, but, uh, you know, even people who would see you, they would not engage because these look like they don't, they were not fearing, they were not wearing like official, um.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Outfits, but they they had guns and they clearly looked like they know what they were doing. They're not gonna stop, so you get a sense that, okay, that's security. So I they they found me in that way, which which I I think it was.

• 17:21Alex Kantrowitz?

  They eavesdrop with your conversation with Jared, is that what happened?

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Uh, no, no, no, they were they were following him. They were finding who is everyone who is he meeting? And they found me to be a very, like, they have to arrest me. They have to know what's my story, why I meet this guy, what what's happening? And they that was part of the investigation, that the big part of it was um asking me about my connections with uh Google, my connections with the CIA, I mean, I had no connections with the CIA. My connect, you know, what what is driving me? They just can't understand, or they couldn't understand at the time, my motivations for doing what I'm doing. They thought it must be that I'm just uh recruited and paid to believe in the certain way uh I believe in to do whatever. Uh, under foreign agents.

• 18:05Alex Kantrowitz?

  But it was from the heart?

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I kind of tried to argue with them uh back and forth, using logic and emotions that uh uh. This is this is not why, it's it's not what you think. And I I do think that they did, uh uh like, at least the ones I I talked to, um uh they did have a different uh way of treating me. As we go, which gives me a bit of a signal. I don't I don't necessarily, security people don't give you the real impression.

• 18:31Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Uh, they're trained to do so, they don't give you the real, they don't need to. Uh, they always, they actually prefer that you don't know what you think of them. Uh, so um in that sense, I I kind of, I kind of feel like I I was able to kind of deliver my message. But um uh overall, uh most of the government, even until today, they just treat me with a lot of suspicion.

• 18:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right, what was it like being detained for those eleven days?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Um. It was a very hard experience because um on one hand you don't know when are you gonna get out, you don't know what's going on. Uh like I was completely disconnected and isolated from the scene. Uh just imagine me in a very small tiny room. Um uh that's not even well painted, it has like all these bad things that I'm smelling and I kept coughing for hours because of it. And I'm blindfolded and handcuffed even when I go to uh.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  The whole time.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Bathroom or uh yeah, the whole time. Um and it was such a tough experience, I have to say um uh that I um probably still uh still trying to um uh. Ki- kinda pass in a in a in the most positive way, but uh there are certain things in my head, you know, I before I leave. I just hugged everybody, uh they allowed me to see some of their faces, which is also uncommon, like you have to, they they don't unfold you until you're out. Because they don't want you to recognize any of the faces of those who either interrogated you or beating you up or whatever that is. Uh I I I don't know if I'm uh uh if I'm uh I guess like many years past, no problem.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  You you know, uh a couple of the officers actually liked me and they wanted me to see everybody and I saw everybody, including um uh those who uh were beating me up. And I hugged them and I told them inside in front of them that I wished them the best and I actually wish it. Uh and you know, I get very irritated uh when uh people call that Stockholm syndrome. Uh I like to call it Amsterdam syndrome, uh because it's all about making making love, you know. We're we're just here to love each other and um uh and and that at the end of the day. Uh um the fact that someone oppresses me uh does not automatically make them oppressor for good.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  And the fact that one is oppressing me does not make them um uh the the evil uh the evil people, I mean even if they torture me, that does not make them the evil people. Uh because I'm not in the game of assign, of course, the act of torture is an evil act. And of course, it's unethical and I oppose it with all what I can because I've actually experienced it. So I kinda know how horrible it is, you know, you just go into your own terror room inside your head where you know all things are dull. You don't, you you are no longer in control in control of your destiny. You just don't know nothing, you know, so even the food, someone is throwing uh uh giving it to you, throwing it at you and you have to accept whatever you're eating. Uh and the food was okay um uh so thanks to the chefs and the and the

• 21:21Speaker 01

  in state security, you know, at least, but I I mean, I mean, it was okay, not good, huh? It was okay, you know, because I'm just, I I learned from my own experience in life and in the streets, just live with the with the with whatever that's in front of you, you know, if I'm complaining about the food, I'll be beaten up there. So but the food was uh something I could eat, uh uh the torture did not go into uh crazy limits. I I did not, I had not get electrified, I was not, you know, I was not lifted, there was no mark in my body from the beating, you know, all the beating was okay. I could, I could have taken it, uh the humiliation, um of course, all of that, as as I say, uh uh is is bad and horrible and it's not something that I am I'm defending or justifying in any way.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Uh but at the end of the day, uh I believe it's part of my responsibility since I'm working on trying to change reality in my own country to kind of understand reality for what it is and deal with and accept it. So when I when I leave while uh doing that uh to all of them, uh I believe that I'm working on my own um. I'm I'm working according to my own value system in which uh I believe the whole thing about, you know, if I alienate them and they alienate me, they have power and they will win. Uh if we communicate, then it's a different story. So I don't wanna cut the communication, I don't wanna uh play the game of polarization, I don't do ACAB, I was tortured by police, but I don't,

• 22:42Speaker 01

  I don't believe ACAB at all, I believe that uh all cups are important to have in the society so that What's ACAB? have a manageable society and all cups are Are bad?

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Uh bastards. Oh, okay. That's a, that's a common, it's a, it's a lingo, it's a lingo, you know, sorry, because I'm, I'm in my own uh No, it's good to hear. It's a lingo uh uh among uh Activists, but this is not your perspective.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  But but it's a common lingo that I that I actually oppose. Right, right.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, and it's not, it's not, all the, of course, not all the activists uh have the same common view, but it's kind of like this idea that you are mad at the uh Uh regime for um uh for being exclusive and so on, but then inside of you actually build up that kind of same exclusive idea that you just don't uh uh accept them at all. And you just treat them as completely alienated, as if, as if like they're just dictators and so on. Like uh uh in my own view now about things, I I question uh the general, generally speaking, a Western narrative to uh the events in in my own country, like this whole idea that their problem is that they don't have democracy, and if democracy exists, then

• 23:56Speaker 01

  their problems will be solved, and the lack of freedom of speech is the problem. Like, I just think this whole, and I call it Western agenda because it is an agenda. It's not an ethical, uh it's not an ethical position. Ethical positions don't change uh based on interests. So since it's an agenda, I I do think that at the end of the day, this agenda is a naive one, and it's uh and and you know, I don't need much to prove its naivety, because at the end of the day, even the the democratic solution in the West is being kind of like in a in a mess right now. It's not where it need to be uh at all. Like uh you see at the type of the way how uh politicians are dealing with each other in the US, or the whole thing about Brexit in the in the UK, and one uh could step back

• 24:40Speaker 01

  and ask, is this the real democracy? Is this the kind of idea of a ruling of the, we we are just all enslaved by a process that is not necessarily optimum, and at the same time, a bunch of us want to force it on, and I was one of them, uh uh on on um collapsing systems or old fashioned systems, instead of collapsing, old fashioned systems, as if like it's a batch. Things don't work like that. That's uh it was a naive moment of uh when I did that, and I still think uh that there is a lot of naivety that's surrounding us, and you can see its impact in the in the global, in the global scale.

• 25:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, we've had moments over the past couple of years where it's been like, um, what would we say if we were looking on from outside and what was happening in the US was happening elsewhere? And how would we characterize it? I mean, look at the storming of the Capitol as the tip of the spear, but it's also just like, this was a, it should have been a wake-up moment for a lot of folks about. You know, let's, let's make sure that we're buttoned up at home before we start to try to.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  And, and.

• 25:45Alex Kantrowitz?

  Influence.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  All the events need to be understood in context.

• 25:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  You cannot just uh uh create isolation events, uh focus on one event and call it as the whole reason why, but uh. Things uh uh, you know, and that's, that's what basically I think a lot about right now. Um uh, we are so invested in certain kind of problems that look good and bring us more attention. And the way we deal with these problems is not deep enough to uh uh to fix the actual problem. So for example. If um if me and you are good in math, seven billion people, they live twenty four hours a day, eighteen hours they're up. And their kind of awareness uh of who they are and what, what they are is um. Driven from all, the sum of all the experiences they are experiencing, right?

• 26:32Alex Kantrowitz?

  Totally.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  So uh if the experiences are good, generally their awareness and view is gonna be more good. If, if they are bad, it's gonna be more challenging and so on and so forth. So if we have that like holistic view. And, and then we look at uh big social media companies that occupy a large percentage of the market share. And, and, and by design occupy a, a large number of hours um of uh the. Our consciousness of uh their users. And you look at the kind uh of philosophy that they operate in order to distribute the content to their users. And we're talking here about, you know, billions of users receiving billions of information pieces on daily pay basis.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Um these infrastructure networks, these like kind of like highways uh of information that is being designed. Have not been designed with safety in mind. They have not. They actually have, have been designed with recklessness in mind, with growth in mind, with speed in mind, but not safety in mind. And uh you know, safety gets uh uh gets prioritized as according to the experiences and limited experiences of the. People who are operating the company from their um headquartered. You know, the design of tech problems, i- i- it's just basically you are in a headquarters somewhere in California where things are amazing. But you're operating your so- software where millions of people in Myanmar are using it.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  And if you do not prioritize uh um uh you know, looking after the health of the network, not just the growth of the network, how healthy the network is uh by looking at the type of engagements that people are having with each other. Um if you're not looking at that and you're just keeping it to uh uh in a chaotic system and whomever can have engagement wins, uh then you are basically facilitating uh uh hacking consciousness. Um and uh without knowing, I I'm not, by the way, questioning the intentions of the people. Um and I I have met a lot of people in these companies and I've worked in these companies. So it's not a matter of questioning intentions, it's just a a matter of questioning maturity.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Because a lot of the people in the tech um uh companies uh do not admit to themselves that they have been immature about their understanding of the impact of their systems on uh the global uh scene. And they continue to be immature by just thinking that actually these, you know, they're in working on like batches, batch of fixes, rather than thinking philosophically that there is actually a huge problem that we are facing as uh um for the collective human consciousness, that you know, it does not make sense that all these polarizing content, all these stupid uh uh uh funny crazy videos uh just makes us occupy most of our times. And guess what, what happens when you do that? Uh people start slowly uh losing reason

• 29:21Speaker 01

  and uh uh using humor to advocate reality and you just lose the overall sense of balance inside of you to see things for what they are. And then you can have a leader that claims whatever they can claim, that it's always the biggest, it's always the best, it's always, and whatever these claims are true or not, it does not matter uh if it's true or not, because he can say it and they can believe it. And the same, but by the way, just just to be clear, uh I uh I consider myself to be kind of a liberal, um uh more than a conservative, but at the same time, uh I'm actually more frustrated by the liberals than the conservatives in general, because I think that the liberals claim that they always have solutions, that they are more open-minded, that blah blah blah, and I say claim uh because.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Because what I experienced was actually just a claim, like I've been in too. Too many of these like settings where we get like top. Top people from Silicon Valley and we're sitting down to discuss how can we fix democracy. Um, uh, uh, uh, and you know, make sure that social media does not ruin. Um, the, um, uh, the democratic scene. And every one of these settings I was, uh, I was invited to, uh, almost had. Uh, uh, zero people who are from the conservative, uh, side. Um hum. So I always ask those people, you know, how can you think that you can fix a problem in which one. Uh, of the wings is not available. I mean, uh, you can't fix it. I mean, even, even if they are the problem, just alienating them doesn't make it happen.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  You know, you can't come up with a solution driven by liberal values and. And enforce it on people who have conservative values. Uh, things don't work like that. And I also tend to, uh, just a last point. Um, uh, tend to think that, you know, I, I think that right wing and left wing, it's like a kind of a bird. You can't really travel with one of the wings on its own. Why? Uh, if you look at the patterns of liberalism and you know how individual characteristics of the people who are leading. That kind of wave of progress and liberalism and so on, uh, you would find one very common, uh, uh, they are recklessly optimistic. Uh, they push in directions where they don't know the, uh, where it's going.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Uh, they get fascinated by short-term results and they discount long-term impacts. Uh, it had, it had happened all the time. And the people who are conservative, um, as a result, uh, kind of balance that view. Uh, on, on, on one hand, they are pretty stuck to many things that they don't want to change, although it might be better for them to change. But they are very skeptical towards a lot of the things they see in the liberal side of things and the progress side of things, and their skepticism saves us all. Their skepticism saves us all because if you allow, um, if you allow the liberals to push gas unstopp, uh, they are actually gonna take the society into, into the wrong places. Because simply, um, we are here because we have been connected to our roots.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  We are here because we are, uh, thousands of years worth of evolution and we can't just uh, discount human behavior, human nature, um, uh, nature of environments, uh, uh, that, uh, you know, uh, complicated, uh, state of transitions, you know, if you wanna transition any society from one state to another, there has to be a very complex. We can't just disconnect all that and just be excited about banners and movements and trends and hashtags, uh, and, uh, and hypes and everyone is like, uh, uh, creating a certain kind of hype and, and, and pushing it. And that's why I kinda feel it is, uh, uh, one of the things I kinda understand now, uh, that we're all wrong. And we will not be able to figure things out until we all stop and say, we are all wrong.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  If we are in the game of polarization, if you are making more people polarizing in this world, no matter what the polarization is for, it's wrong. Because at the end of the day, uh, you can't operate a society with no trust. And once people are polarized, that's what, you know, the American, uh, politicians are just becoming, to be honest, I mean, uh, uh, I don't mean, wanna be offensive, but, uh, uh, they are just making jokes of themselves. Because you know, when you are someone who is supposed to be, uh, a strong leader and you are running a serious business, one of the biggest civilizations in the world, and your attitude is, is, uh, is like, uh, uh, uh, you, you know, reckless, uh,

• 33:36Speaker 01

  I, I, you know, I, I don't wanna even call it a kid because kids are, uh, you know, kids are amazing. Kids are mature, you can, you can actually have a mature kid, but, uh, it, just, just kind of reckless behavior, uh, and we all accept it as part, you, you know, that's human behavior. Oh, that's how the TV runs, oh, that's how the media, oh, that's how the system, no, that's all bullshit.

• 33:55Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  You know, that doesn't work that way. If there is a fundamental problem, then we need to figure out how to solve it, uh, and not to further the polarization.

• 34:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  I wanna pick up on a few things you said. First of all, I agree that we need a balance of liberal and conservative. I think that's important. I don't think having a one-party system works, has worked well for anyone. Um, and so I do think that's important. I also think it's important for both parties to approach things in good faith. And I think too often, in recent times, we've probably had. You know, the right wing in this country not really operate in good faith. I mean, it exists on the left side too, but but it's been sad to see the lack of good faith action and good faith negotiation in politics. And then finally, just the idea that certainty is everyone's so certain. I think this is something you were hitting on, so certain that they have the answers.

• 34:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  And the real possibility of growth is saying, I don't know, or I might be wrong. Or there's a chance that this might not be a definitive solution. Why might it not work? Well, how could we do this better? What do you think? You know, someone who has a different viewpoint in terms of the way that I, in terms of the way that you see the world. That's so important. And it's unfortunate that everything's become so flattened and two dimensional right now.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that it's unfortunate, but to be honest, it makes sense. As in, the design of the game makes it this way. Why? Because at the end of the day, there are tools now. So for example, if if one of these politicians is trolling another one, they get much more attention. And they need the attention because that's the way they can actually raise funds because they are a known politician and people are paying attention to them. And what I'm trying to say here is like, we all need to kind of stop and zoom out a little bit and re-envision how to fix things without alienating anyone and without assuming, you know, you said that you think that the left, the, you know, the conservatives are

• 35:56Speaker 01

  kind of more fixated into their positions. But me and you kind of have to understand that this is, this is not to oppose the liberals. This is, this is something in their character. This is something they have experienced. This is the way they think. And in order for for that way of thinking to move or advance, you have to kind of respect their own value system so that they can listen to you. So for example, you you think that the the right side is is less, you know, kind of like less listening and less respectful to the left side. But I can tell you, if you are in the right, if you are religious.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  A Christian religious and you see you open a comedy.

• 36:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, you open a comedy show making fun of uh um uh your god, making fun of your religious beliefs, making. You are gonna feel the same way. And again, uh this kind of um uh this kind of phenomena is uh is what we need to deal with, which is. Uh we need to kind of figure out how can we build some sort of meta-thinking that absorb all of us. So we can think then to fix these uh uh these issues, but I can't uh I can't think that a solution will emerge. When comedians are the ones who are running the philosophy scene in reality, because they are capturing people's attention.

• 37:21Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  In a in a way or another, with all due respect to comedians, I like them, I enjoy them. Uh uh and I can I can name quite a lot that makes me happy, but at the end of the day. Uh countries should not be run by comedians, uh presidents or president nominees. Uh in in a realistic world, uh cannot have their head being with a comedian because they crack a bunch of jokes, ha, ha, ha. You know, we're talking about uh a real world here, we're not talking about your ability to present. So for for us to really start solving the problems, uh there has to be some deep questionings of uh the methods we have been using. Um you uh you can't allow people to mock each other, accuse each other with no like.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  With no limits and then think that they're not gonna be polarized in a horrible way, they're gonna be polarized and sometimes they're gonna choose against their own interest as well, just to punish. The other side, because we see that in street fights and.

• 38:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, that's become, uh yeah, the whole American political scene has been punitive recently, so.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it start it starts local and it keeps growing until it become a global phenomenon within the environment.

• 38:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, you know, there's one thing that I've been thinking about, like this whole conversation, which I want to bring up, which is that. You know, it's been interesting hearing your perspective on social media. Um and sort of how it's it's helped to, you had this remarkable line in one of your TED Talks, the same tool that united us. To topple dictators eventually tore us apart. And you know, I think that like you're someone who's been associated with one of the most positive uses of social media. An opportunity to rally, you know, a population against, you know, a regime that, you know, was was unresponsive and pushed for change. And so what does it feel like to you? Cause you, you know, they were spray painting things Facebook on the walls in Cairo after the revolution.

• 39:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  So do you have this sort of like, you know, push and pull where you're like, well, I'm glad that social media was available for that. But I'm also nervous about what it's developed into or like when, when you were, you know, pushing those levers back in 2011. Did you have a feeling where things might go?

• 39:30Speaker 01

  It was not a feeling where things might go, but it was kind of a question in my head. Like I can see in this tool so much power that it can be abused by anyone, right? Like, I mean, I was personally a victim of the, of, of, I mean, not victim, but I was targeted by the tool. By, you know, tons and tons. There was like a page that has like over a million people and they would write things I never said. They say, well, when he was saying the such and such, and they put it as, and I reported it to Facebook. And not on my page, not, not on their page. They just, yeah, they claimed that I made a statement and the statement is ridiculous and horrible and extreme.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  But no one checks who, who said what. And at the time I even sent, sent a message to Facebook and they said, we can't remove it. You know, we're not gonna be in the, you know, they have to kind of, yeah, they can't judge that if I said it or not. So as I was, as I was trying to say, like my relationship, I got, I got targeted by the same tools. And I've seen how at the end of the day, being excited about a tool is no longer something I do. It's naive.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Being excited about a tool that continuously develops is even more naive. And being excited about a tool that evolves around financial principles, controlled by a bunch of investors, trying to amass a huge number of audience and selling advertisements on it, you know, that's that kind of a model. In my view, it still exists and it probably will exist for a little bit. But I think it's doomed to fail. I mean, look at if Facebook did everything great and, you know, they kind of made their users happy, users would not flock to social networks as they appear. Because at the end of the day, reality is humans are actually looking for a good experience all the time.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  And if you offer them this good experience, they can stick with you. But the problem is, and as I, as I understand that these companies get so excited about, you know, connections. Mark Zuckerberg have already reviewed a lot of his positions in that sense and talked about it. But they get so excited about amassing a large number of people. They get so excited about growing the figures and advertising and whatever. But they don't ask themselves philosophical questions. They hide behind, oh, that's, you know, when I talk to anyone, you're like, that's human behavior. Well, it's not true because human behavior is like, we all know in design that if you change a bottom color, things change. So in that sense, if you create an environment that is decent, people will be decent.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  And if you create the right tools to enforce decency, that's fine. Then, then, then, and as long as they are non-partisan and as long as they are not enforced by a platform on its own. And that's why I think, you know, there, there are some interesting things about Clubhouse. But I still think in the same way, I'm, I'm just using it as a tool now. I don't know where it's going. I'm not going to be excited about a tool. I'm, I'm not an, I'm no longer putting my emotional capacity on corporates, on companies that basically want to become, you know, huge and large. You know, I just think this whole path is somehow a part of the reason why we're in the problem we're in. Everybody's kind of rushing for success. All these networks kind of shoo more than they can bite.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  They they just took took more and more and more because you know they have to report every three months here and there and increase their stock price. But but these tools are somehow right now are not in the service of the people it claims it is.

• 43:10Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I want to address that. Let's take a quick pause and we'll be right back here on the Big Technology Podcast with Waiw Go Nia. This episode is brought to you by App Point. Everyone's racing to roll out AI right now. Co-pilots, chatbots, agents doing real work. But here's the part nobody loves talking about. All that AI runs on your data, and most teams have no single way to see it, secure it, and prove it's under control. That's exactly what App Point does. For 25 years, they've been the trusted layer beneath the world's most demanding data, now extended across your entire AI estate. Your data, your cloud, and the agents acting on your behalf. It's how more

• 43:52Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 44:35Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 45:20Alex Kantrowitz?

  All right, we are back for the second part of Big Technology Podcast here with Wael Gonim, who helped sparked the Egyptian Revolution using Facebook. Before the break, we were talking a little bit about these social networks and sort of maybe we can get into the solutions in this, in this last bit of our conversation. The one thing I want to ask before we get into solutions is just again, thinking about the problem. First of all, do you view what you did as good when you started the page?

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Of course, of course. And, and I still, I still benefit from, from social media every day. There is a lot of good that comes out of these networks and, and that's by design. But one gram of bad is, is, you know, remove a thousand grams of good. You know, kind of, if you think about it, if you just spoil a thousand gram of good with a gram of bad, it can just get all spoiled eventually and go bad. So it's not that, and this is something very important to people who work in social media networks, you know, don't get defensive when people are just going after you for the problems you have, because we still think there is a version and we have not forgot all the good moments, all the great things that have happened because of social media in our lives. It's just that the current memory

• 46:35Speaker 01

  is so occupied with all that polarization and all that bad stuff that's happening right now.

• 46:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. Do you think there, like, it's interesting what you, when you mentioned about one gram versus a thousand grams. It's like Disney has this rubric where like you have good moments, which are magic moments and bad moments, which are tragic moments. And they've like figured out, like, if you go into one of their park and you have one tragic moment, it takes 30 magic moments to make up for it. And

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Thank you. It, it, it kind of makes sense, you know, you know, we humans do that on every day. If, if there is someone who is like, kind of nice to you, but one time he was really horrible.

• 47:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  There you go.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  What you're gonna tag their mind and, you know, you're just gonna say they're at least crazy, you know, they, because they show you a horrible side.

• 47:20Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  And, and, and that is what we all need to understand. It's not about targeting these companies and claiming that they're not doing good. Or they, we are telling them this so that they can tell us about their amazing efforts in the, in great directions. Uh, no argument, they're good human souls and I assume that they're trying to do, they're trying to live their own way without hurting others while making things better. However, uh, the real problem is, uh, because of the defensive nature of humans and because of the lack of, uh, ex, uh, uh, that kind of experience within the tech industry. Um, uh, all these un, uh, uh, all these consequences happen, I would call them unintended or intended, whatever, uh, consequences happen.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  And they really have no honor to fix. And most of the time, the, uh, the solution, um, uh, is kinda like, uh, uh, we sit down and keep talking about it. And it, it's never the solution. The real solution is, uh, kinda rethink the design.

• 48:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  Do you think they'll live, I mean, do you think, so do you think they've become too defensive when it comes to criticism to start rethinking the design? And just a secondary part of that, what would you change with the design? I mean, if we're talking about a, building a product that more, that better reflects the good parts of humanity, how might you do it?

• 48:34Speaker 01

  So, uh, great two questions. The first question, I really don't know, um, uh, because I'm not inside the companies. Uh, so my view, uh, is super limited to the outside perspective. So, uh, I'm, I'm not comfortable making a judgment about, uh, uh, about their internal efforts. Um, uh, yet I, I'm seeing from the outside, uh, like I, I did not see any, um, evolving concept. That's, uh, that came out of Facebook that is changing the nature of dialogue within the platform. It hasn't happened. Um, so, uh, do I think that a solution like that exists or, uh, or possible? Uh, I believe, um, uh, you, you know, I'm sure the people there have the experience of understanding what kind of problems and how to deal with them.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  So I believe that, yeah, you can come up with, uh, practical solutions. And by the way, people think of, uh, uh, solutions in, in, in a certain big way. I, I think Clubhouse, for example, the, the, the current version of it, not necessarily the future ones. Um, the way it is designed doesn't make you pay attention all the time to how audience are engaging with what you're saying. So for example, uh on one hand, uh that kind of drops engagement in a way because of course, if everybody's clapping and we count the number of claps and people know how many are clapping to this You play to the applause. to that and all that kind of stuff, uh uh it's gonna all be exciting and fun. Uh but guess what? The game is gonna be eventually hacked. Why? Because the people who are optimizing

• 50:00Speaker 01

  to be recognized and be nice and, you know, get all the claps are not necessarily the ones who have the value. So the design right now somehow, uh just because it did not manipulate and tap into that uh that kind of human behavior, just to increase the number of audience, uh is by design making things calmer. You know, uh so what I'm trying to tell here, my fellow friends, uh uh who are uh thinking too much about how to come up with holistic solutions to solve uh the problems of social media networks, um is that sometimes actually uh the solutions are way easier than we think they are. Um and uh sometimes the solutions have to do with the design of the experience rather than

• 50:42Speaker 01

  uh the algorithms and the machine learning and whatever that is. I remember just a quick example here. Um you you know, they uh they say um uh to know the difference between a marketer and an engineer. Um they asked uh both of them to uh fix the problem that the escalator is a slow one. And that people get bored as the escalator keeps going up. So the engineer kept trying to solve the problem by um fixing the machine work, you know, whatever that's in uh in the process to increase the speed by a bit, but the, you know, marketer put a mirror. Um because in his assumption, if you put a mirror, people start looking at themselves in the mirror and they're gonna lose sense of how much time have passed as the elevator goes up.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  And uh not that I'm, you know, suggesting this over that, but what I'm just saying is like, uh you can actually think of uh uh easy solutions to improve decency in environments like uh uh like Facebook. Uh you can actually reduce um uh polarization uh by not building everything just around uh engagement numbers and uh uh uh you know what to do exactly. I don't think that's the problem. The real problem is that if you do that, you make less money. Totally. That's the real problem, not, I mean, may- maybe there is a way where you can make more money, but unfortunately, I just think that uh resources on earth are like uh uh in, they behave in an interesting way, even if they are resources created by humans.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Uh if you accumulate a lot of them in a short period of time, you are surely going to lose them uh in a short period of time. And if you accumulate in them in a balance and slow and you you you know, well rooted way of time, you are gonna for sure last for longer. Um so whatever that's happening because uh of technology is that we kind of rush everything, you know, everything happens and you can, you can look at the numbers, the dashboards, and everybody have, the investors have higher expectations of you. So this whole ecosystem, uh when when you, when I say a solution, when I think of a solution, I really um think that uh one, different, different designs within the experiences that can be tested uh to see how can you kind of lower the tense, tensity, the heat, you know, the temperature.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Just lower the temperature, you know, build things that uh you know, reward be- people for being decent, show more things that are, but, you know, if you are in the company thinking ads, ads, ads all the time, thinking revenue, revenue, revenue all the time, uh or um if you are uh, trying to do these changes while not taking revenue hits uh initially, uh in either cases, it's not gonna work because uh uh for a change in a mass, and and of course, uh here is what I say, uh it is true that there are losses uh to doing something like that from a perspective of any company, but also uh the company is not aware of the losses it is already taking now, now because of their brand hit.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Uh because you know, maybe uh Facebook uh in life could have lasted for thirty years and it would only last for twenty, maybe, I don't know. Uh maybe it would have lasted for fifty years, but it will last for thirty. But then how do you really know all of that? You can't. There is no way for you to know. The only way for you to know is look at the current moment. Uh are you actually uh uh being uh as good as you can? And and by the way, one last part uh is um uh we want improvements and I personally don't want like a a whole. Change of the system because if you change everything, everything changes. So uh I'm I'm not naive. I'm not looking for a complete uh uh makeover of social media. Uh maybe maybe it happens through another platform.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  You know, just like how Clubhouse is coming in and changing a bit of uh uh the the nature of communication between individuals. Maybe it happens that way. Uh but at the same time, if it if it's meant to happen within Facebook, it will have to be gradual. But there has to be way more transparency. There has to be way more uh commitment towards making sure that the collective awareness is not up for grab by human traffickers.

• 54:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, look, nothing annoys me more in this world than when people are like, social media just reflects humanity. It's like if a mirror is not perfectly constructed, it will distort. And you can see the differences between the conversations on Facebook and the conversations on Twitter and the conversations on Clubhouse, and they each reflect differently. And there's gotta be a way to design this stuff that makes it not reflect the worst parts of us, but the best.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  We have already designed a lot of these kind of experiences in the past. It's just that uh it was uh pretty local. It was tailored towards small numbers of people. So the kind of uh uh uh when when globalization happened and everyone kind of wanted to uh operate and open in huge markets, everybody kind of rushed in their designs. You know, the whole design process of things that are used by billions of people uh uh does not really look at the consequences uh in the right way. You know, how many uh people uh within uh these platforms uh kind of advocate for um uh uh unintended consequences. Uh how many people have experiences outside the experience of the tech environment? You know, also

• 55:49Speaker 01

  uh tech has a lot of fundamental problems that is created around the industry itself. It doesn't have anything to do with Facebook itself. Uh that, for example, if you're in the oil industry, uh before you dig a hole, you have to kind of talk to thousands of people and get like hundreds of paper and meet this and that and lobby with this and that. And then you dig the hole. Uh in tech, you know, before you even talk to anyone, you probably could have had a hundred million users already, and you are changing the scene.

• 56:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's what happens. Yeah, there's like ten people. And a billion users. That's typical scene. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so and and I'm not here to say this is wrong and we should stop it, we should manage this, I'm I'm not an idiot. I'm not naive.

• 56:31Alex Kantrowitz?

  We know that.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Uh, what I'm what I'm, yeah, what I'm trying to say is like we, since we are trying to understand why things are where they are. Uh, somehow we need to kind of understand what are the general characteristics of uh this industry that differentiates it from other industries. So uh it's a very high speed industry, you know, I I actually uh uh think one of the problems of high tech that it's high tech.

• 56:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  Hmm.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  You know, there is a lot of influence on tech, tech, tech, you know, we are here to live experiences and feel feelings and tech is just a tool. And if you just take the the high tech as your own way, you know, live around gadgets and occupy with yourself with plastic and. You know, all these kind of virtual life experiences, uh uh then that's not really high tech. Because um it is using the human intelligence into very low uh low quality transactions most of the time. Um, and it also lowers humans' ability to do cognitive things and uh there has been a lot of researches about that, right?

• 57:32Speaker 01

  So uh uh high tech is supposed to raise our own awareness, raise our own experiences, improve our, you know, that's that's what I would expect from high tech. But unfortunately, uh uh high tech now means uh let's figure out a solution uh to any problem. Um, uh without really making sure that this is an an an actual solution and it's not just a a way to create a more complicated problem.

• 57:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I know the buzzword is disrupt, but like disrupt for disruption's sake, is that good? Like, shouldn't it be improved or something like that, that always, well, especially recently struck me as something that's been a little bit off.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Yep, and by design, a lot of the people who are trying to disrupt, they don't take time to understand the existing system. They make a lot of arrogant assumptions about the reality of things. They rush into conclusions about why bad things are happening, but the reality is sometimes bad things are happening because there are crucial, hard design problems. That makes them uh happen if you take that path and they design other paths where they can avoid the problem. But then fall into huge other problems in the future, you know, for example.

• 58:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  We've talked about a few.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  You know, I'm I'm not again.

• 58:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Robin Hood.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not against multinational companies, I'm not against corporations, but I'm I'm also interested to understand what does it mean that individuals within a company that has not been uh uh voted for by public control the transportation sector across the world.

• 58:55Alex Kantrowitz?

  Um hum.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  They really understand who is where, what they are, it's kind of like, you know, just because they can build this model that can go everywhere in the world that we rely on. And what happens when these people turn out to be corrupt or when the model gets broken uh after people have completely relied on it and, you know. And all all these kind of things, I I just think actually the the real spirit of tech initially started with democratizing information, giving access to everybody. Uh making opportunities to people. So one would imagine then the design is gonna be um these kind of islands that help other islands get formed and created. And we build a whole world of that. Uh but it ended up, uh uh we played the the usual game because of the negative, the dark side of human nature.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Where everyone is is playing the game to control and look good. Uh and and I don't blame them because also, you know, uh you don't wanna question the system. As well as you see the good things you are doing as you do, like if I'm Google, I'm seeing all the great things I'm doing as I'm building the company. So. Uh um uh it kind of slips in the, it slips in our heads that we just start optimizing to become bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And uh you are operating opposite to the spirit of the of the experience of democratizing access. Because all those peoples who you are giving them information wanna have a better life experience, wanna have a better role in life, and they wanna do something. So if things are centralized in small, it's a it's a numbers game. If things are centralized in small uh superpowers, whatever they are, corporates, countries.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  In the certain individuals within a sector, whatever that is, uh that leaves very s- small room for others to grow. And increases level of frustration among people and uh uh get uh uh some kind of um uh those people who wanna interrupt rather than disrupt. You know, if you keep disrupting and, you know, they just wanna interrupt you because your disruption is not adding value in their own value system. Um and uh here, I think one of the very important solutions uh is um somehow um.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Having more conversations with the investors around us. You know, we target Facebook, we target Twitter. But the reality is, if you really want to change this environment, convince a few big investors.

• 1:01:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  But the VCs don't seem, they don't seem really willing. Well, many, we've had a few that on this show that have been receptive, Roy Bahat, one example. But unfortunately, it seems more and more that investors are, you know, putting up blinders and crawling into their, you know, own reality holes. Which from an I C.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  But I'm sure, I, I hear you, I hear you. And I'm sure that there are some other kinds are questioning. I mean, since, since they are in the game, they must be seeing it from different perspectives. And I'm, I'm still looking, I, I've seen enough people that are not optimizing for profit. You know, I'm not against profit. I, I do want to have a nice life and a lot of money and whatever. So I'm not against profit and I, I appreciate the, the, the system. But at the same time, I'm not going to make my life about that profit. I'm not going to create a whole reason for existence and call that, well, that's how capitalism should work. No, I mean, let's, let's say the capitalism is not religious. You know, we can just actually take things here and there and modify them and see what happens.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  We can try and create different ways, shapes and forms to influence the, the model. And by the way, I believe that change doesn't take a lot of people anyway. You don't have to have a lot of VCs. It's probably a couple of VCs who are disciplined enough and they happen to be well known. So they inspire certain type of founders to help build on, on new principles. And, and they will be okay waiting because that's the biggest problem with the existing, the cycle. You know, you can't just build something right in, in that kind of cycle. You're going to build something that grows into cancer.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Uh in this cycle of like trying to series A, series B, let's uh let's uh what is happening? You know, we need to improve this number because the investor is looking at it and you know, this whole kind of world uh is not the environment where you're actually, I mean, you can add value, of course, all the time, but that's not suited for adding value. You know, adding value happens uh if it's linked with ability to monetize most of the time. Uh you know, look at the teams and how they're organized and the meetings and how they're shaped. You will see uh uh uh always like some sort of focus on uh making sure that the business is not impacted. You know, kind of Facebook, uh YouTube did not wanna be the Ministry of Truth until the advertisers decided. Uh they're not happy. Uh and uh and then the Ministry of Truth was launched.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Uh you know, which is fine. I mean, I guess, I guess at the end of the day, it's their, it's their platform. But I'm just saying, uh their position have changed because of the pressure of the financial institutions and not necessarily because of the pressure of the public uh uh public opinion.

• 1:03:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, and I know there are like some investors out there that are receptive to thinking outside of the way that has been traditionally uh thought in Silicon Valley. Where like impact on society matters, you know, as much as as profit and growth. And I know some of them listen to the show, so um I'll I'll take back what I said earlier that I do think that that there are some that are engaging and you're right, you know, we need a.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  And and and you know, uh just to also fix what I'm saying, uh there are a lot of people inside Facebook and Google and and uh and Twitter and other companies who who who would actually listen to this and kinda agree and try and do something about it.

• 1:04:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  Their hearts in the right place.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  I think another thing I I learnt in my own experience in the Arab Spring or the Egyptian Revolution uh is not to make assumptions on behalf of people intentions uh and not to make assumptions, negative assumptions about the future, how the future could emerge uh uh given my cynicism towards someone. It's not my job. I mean, if they don't do it, they don't do it because it's their problem and they're gonna pay a price for it. But it's not my job to keep saying they're not gonna do it. They're not, there is no one that wants to do this. There's that that kind of uh defeat the the purpose uh um of of us trying to fix this uh in the spirit of fixing the problem.

• 1:05:06Alex Kantrowitz?

  For real. No, I think it's important to look, look at things with a little bit of optimism and realism versus a a sense of resignation, which we see too often, so. It's a nice note to to bring our conversation to a close on. I do, before we go, I want to hear more about, um, just quickly, what are you up to now and what's next for you? You live in Sanford, you live in the Bay Area now too, so that's an interesting move.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  I I live in California and I haven't been working for two years and a half right now. Um, uh, mostly working on myself and trying, I I went through a very hard depression. Um, because of, uh, you know, all the events that I've uh, experienced in Egypt and then leaving the country. I haven't visited back home for seven years now. Um, I recently got divorced, so I'm kind of like, uh, trying to, uh, to stabilize my my life, if you, uh, if if you would say, uh, and bring it into a better place. And as I'm doing that, I I'm enjoying it and I learned to be very honest with everyone, you know, I

• 1:06:10Alex Kantrowitz?

  I found out.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  If someone is is hiring me for a job, I I I I don't mind telling them about my depression and I actually would appreciate if they don't hire me.

• 1:06:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Uh, why? Because if they are not gonna respect me and my own emotional state and they just wanna uh, make a use of my mind that has been under huge, um, uh, depressive emotional experiences, then I have no respect or no passion to work for them. Uh, so I kind of, uh, in in this time, I've been trying to work on myself and and bring myself up in that sense. Uh, I've been trying to reflect, uh, about, um, uh, what have happened, uh, what were the mistakes I have done? Where where are the sources of my naivety? I kind of like applied this function in my head that whenever reality doesn't meet expectations, I'm gonna like really debug my expectations because, um, it is not smart to expect good things and then find things, uh, bad things happen and then

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  uh, victimize yourself and sit on the side crying. The right thing is to understand what did you miss? Uh, what was part of the reality that you didn't see? And I hope actually, uh, this is something that, um, uh, because it it has been something that helped me a lot in my own, uh, um. I call that active meditation uh because I don't know how to meditate by just um uh uh stopping my line of thought. I don't try and stop my line of thought. I know there are different kind of meditations. So I I meditate in the in the way where um any idea that comes to mind, I just uh have to process it and think about why is it coming? What can I do about balancing it uh so that when it comes back later, it comes in a more uh in a more shaped form. So I'm managing

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  my own subconscious in a way while um uh you know, kind of preparing myself for a startup that I'll be working on. Um it has been years since I wanted to do it and unfortunately the events have taken me into uh undesirable directions. But I'm I'm in a much better uh uh place now and I'm kinda um you know, ready to to get back to the scene in uh in a in a more useful way, hopefully.

• 1:08:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, well, I look, I think that your voice is a extremely important one, your perspective, uh you know, given your life experience and just the way that you think about these things is valuable to any company here. So um and it's impressive that you.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  I I I thank you and you know, I appreciate that you uh saying this and it it has not matched my experience.

• 1:08:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, I think that.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  I I don't think you'll be surprised.

• 1:08:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  I I I think that for all the Silicon Valley companies talking the big game about how to be responsible and how to think differently. Um you know, if they didn't want to bring you on or find a way to work together, then then I don't think there's much meaning to their words. So.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  Well, I I I appreciate I I appreciate your the strength of your of your backing. I I I just think that, you know, sometimes uh people don't listen to you because you don't have the right narrative for them. Uh I I kinda always uh think of my own personal responsibility and I I definitely still lack the right narrative because the right narrative would get things done. Uh we are uh unlike what we like to think, unlike what we like to think, we're very logical creatures. Uh if I know how to show you my logic in a way that becomes logical to you, you're gonna adopt it because why not? You know, at the end of the day, it's not really, we're not here uh uh here and and that's a good way to to end this. We're not he really here to uh ruin each other experiences or point at each other or judge each other. That's kind

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  of a uh very bad way to waste uh our life experiences. I've done that for a while and I'm done with it. It's like it's the worst kind of addiction to just get yourself in these negative cycles. We're here to try and add value. So. I I strive to kind of uh uh uh you know fix my own shortcomings and hopefully you know it will eventually be appreciated.

• 1:09:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, well, we we here on Big Technology Podcast definitely appreciate it, I'll tell you that much. People who want to get in touch with you, is there a good way for them to do it?

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Well, I'm in um uh uh my email is my last name at gmail dot com, G H O N I M at gmail dot com. And on Twitter, I'm at Go Name, but I write mostly in Arabic. So I I

• 1:10:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  I've been thinking about creating an English account, but maybe uh uh if as as things go, if enough, if I feel like there's an enough audience that can relate to what I say and would like to hear me, I'm I'm happy to do that.

• 1:10:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, I I I encourage it and um.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Always happy to be in your podcast as well.

• 1:10:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  Thank you. I I hope you come back again. I really do. I got to about twenty five percent of the stuff I wanted to talk about. So not a commentary on you, just because it was so interesting in terms of the directions that we went. So I hope we do it again. This will also definitely be the longest episode that we've had, and I'm proud of it. And then

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  I hope we don't bore people.

• 1:10:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, for sure. And then we'll have a clubhouse discussion at some point.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  I would love to have a clubhouse discussion with you. And I've been experimenting with the platform a bit. And as I said, like, yeah, it's a nice start.

• 1:11:10Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, they seem very lively. Yeah, so I can't understand anything, but they seem a lot of fun. So but let's do one in English sometime soon. I'll put the details on that on on the newsletter, the Big Technology Newsletter. I'll just drop it when this thing drops. You know, within the day or two, sort of when that's gonna happen. So we can work out a time and and make that make that work. But it's it's really always great to chat. I love catching up with you, Y. L.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  Same here.

• 1:11:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  And I hope we do it again soon. Same here. Thank you. Thank you, and thanks, everybody, for listening. We do these shows every week, new episode every Wednesday. Join us next week for a conversation with Kayvon Bakpor, who is the head of product at Twitter. That should be an interesting conversation. They're trying to copy Clubhouse, which we've talked a lot about today. They also recently banned Donald Trump, so I'm sure we'll touch on both of those things. Thank you, Nate Guatney, for editing. Thank you for the folks at Red Circle for hosting and selling ads on the show. And thanks always to you, the listeners, for coming each week and joining us here. If this is your first time, please hit subscribe. Again, new episodes every Wednesday. And if you've been here for a while and could rate us on Apple Podcasts, that would go a long way.

• 1:12:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  All right, everybody, until next week. We will see you then on the Big Technology Podcast. Take care and have a good one.

• 1:12:39Speaker 03

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